180 Podcast with Jimmy Moore

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Alright you guys, the day has finally arrived.  My podcast interview with Jimmy Moore was just put up live early this morning.  It truly is a great representation of 180degreehealth.  Lots of the low-carbers are gonna hate it.  In fact, looks like I’m getting 3.7 stars of out 10 right now.  But I stand behind what I said, and I hope I make you proud.  Whatever ratings or comments that you want to share to let Jimmy know that you’re pleased to hear me over there will be greatly appreciated.  Jimmy is one of the few people on earth trying to bridge the giant gaps between polarized health and nutrition viewpoints.  So show some love for him. 

62 Comments

  1. Good job Matt!

    If only PaNu, Eades and Free the Animal would let you do a guest post.
    Maybe someday?

    Scott

    Reply
  2. it was really a good podcast!!! its funny when people just can't get the idea through there head about refined carbs and unrefined… two totally different things!!

    troy

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  3. Glad to see this up after the stuff that happened on Nikolay's comments…. Good podcast and helps get 180 across in a good light.

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  4. "If only PaNu, Eades and Free the Animal would let you do a guest post.
    Maybe someday?"

    Hah, on PaNu or freetheanimal? Harris and especially Nikoley would never let that happen.
    Well, we can still hope. But actually, I think the paleosphere has already been influenced way more than many people are willing to admit (especially PaNu). However, this might only my imagination or wishful thinking.

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  5. Great content Matt! I really like how you expressed the importance of the metabolism and how stupid it is to avoid macros. Hopefully this will sink in with some of the more closed-minded listeners and lead them to a better understanding of how its more than just insulin and carbs.

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  6. Nice job kicking the low-carbers into the right direction. I'm pretty sure many of them will eat some potatoes or bread after listening to how Fuhrman treats diabetics on hundreds of grams of carbs. :-D

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  7. Focused and insightful, not all over the place, which can be so easy to do. The focus on carbs and how they effect the metabolism was well done.

    Matt any reason there was no mention of o-6? Timing? Just curious.

    @Chris

    I agree with those sentiments. I saw much of that as being mob mentality. A bunch of "yeah" "yeah" "yeah" and not enough "wait what?"

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  8. Nice interview. But, I have to disagree that fructose is the #1 cause of insulin resistance. I am skeptical of all of the recent demonization of fructose. I would put PUFA's followed by a sedentary lifestyle as the #1 causes.

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  9. learned a lot listening to you guys chatting. Good job

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  10. Matt I have a couple questions for ya.
    In the quote from Dr. Atkins, he has patients take 3 temps per day and then average it. Is this better than just going off the morning reading?

    Also, I'm wondering what you think about grass fed beef. It is lower in saturated fat, so higher in polyunsaturated fat, so is it better than organic corn fed beef or is there really much difference? The price difference is usually pretty big so why waste the money if it is not really healthier.

    Thanks, Vida

    Reply
  11. i agree with JT… veggies oils should have been the No. One most damaging to the metabolism… not sugar… still a great podcast!!!

    troy

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  12. JT, please show me serious proof of sedentarism damaging the metabolism and/or leading to insulin resistance. Of course, it being a cause, not a result. I'm really interested.

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  13. Hey Troy. I saw on Diet Fucked you have added sugar into your diet along with your starch intake.

    If it's not too much to ask can you post your current daily eating habits. I'd like to know what you are eating these days. Thanks in advance.

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  14. Matt:
    I am curious about what your thoughts on this study are.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2276854

    "23 obese women were studied as inpatients for 2 weeks on diets (kcal = 50 percent of RMR) containing either 93 percent sucrose (S, n = 7), sucrose plus protein (75 percent/20 percent, SP, n = 9), or fat plus protein (75 percent/20 percent, FP, n = 7)"

    They were able to maintain the womens RMR and T3 levels on the 93% sucrose diet on a 800 kcal diet (50% deficit). Maybe a possible good use for sugar?
    "The Sucrose Diet" for weight loss lol?!

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  15. Riles, nice find. Maybe the sugar bashing will come to an end soon, but probably not.

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  16. EL66K, IT is fairly well know that exercise improves insulin sensitivity. Just google exercise and insulin sensitivity. Here is one:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10683091

    I am becoming more and more convinced that physical exercise is just as, or more important than diet. We are designed for it.

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  17. JT I don't know man. Don't get me wrong exercise(movement) is a very import aspect of being human, and I have been tossing around ideas of how it could properly be incorporated in conjunction with diet to heal the metabolism. But to say it is more important than diet, eehh.

    I don't really care for "studies" but has there been any that show exercise being "the" factor in lasting metabolic correction?

    Reply
  18. Nathan, this is common knowledge man. Just do a quick google search and you will see how much info there is out there on it. Even Schwarzbein says to incorporate it to heal the metabolism.
    Yes, it can correct the metabolism, if the problem with the metabolism is insulin resistance, and exercise improves the insulin resistance. Also, many more hormones are affected as well.

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  19. I'm not ready to let sugar off the hook yet. There were obese people and metabolic syndromes BEFORE the introduction of vegetable oils into our diets. It might be that excess refined sugar can combine with other foods (fat, alcohol) and induce metabolic syndrome in some people. It could be that the combo of sugar and vegetable oil is synergistic, while sugar by itself is only mildly harmful, easily negated if the rest of the diet is sufficient.

    Scott

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  20. Hey Matt, you should listen to the Dr. Connelly videos on the Crossfit Journal site. Part of it explains why chronic dieting leads to more weight gain, higher insulin sensitivity. Let me know what you think.

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  21. Hello,

    I'm a long time low carber and diabetic. I loved the interview! I think most of Jimmy's audience will.

    Reply
  22. Hello,

    I'm a long time low carber and diabetic. I loved the interview! I think most of Jimmy's audience will.

    Reply
  23. Nathan,
    If exercise improves insulin sensitivity, what is so hard about believing that doing the opposite de-sensitives it?

    Reply
  24. Riles no don't get me wrong I believe exercise is huge when it comes to a healthy body, balanced hormones, and good metabolism. I was questioning JT's statement about exercise being potentially MORE important that diet.

    I am not convinced that any type or amount of exercise can compensate for a poor diet.

    I also am not convinced of Matt's no exercise recommendations when attempting to heal ones metabolism.

    By the way loving the blog man.

    Reply
  25. Have you guys seen the youtube video "supersize vs superskinny"? I saw after watching the other BBC video that Matt posted. It makes the fat people and skinnny people switch diets. After watching this please tell me if you think that most fat people dont eat very many calories.

    Reply
  26. JT I think you are always going to get a mixed bag. I don't think people are lying when they say they don't eat more that say a "thin" person. But I agree that many overweight people probably eat to many calories.

    Matt has touched on this, if they are eating a "lot" the questions then becomes why are they eating so much food? Why is it they are contently hungry, snacking on bad shit? Right?

    Perhaps that is what the video touched on, haven't watch it.

    Reply
  27. constantly not contently

    Reply
  28. JT
    I have seen that show as well. I watched it a couple of months ago. I was absolutely amazed at the amount the fat ones were eating as well as some of the amounts the skinny ones were surviving on.
    It is fairly obvious that to get fat you must eat a lot. But, eating a lot does not always cause fat gain.
    This is where I feel weight training and exercise plays a big part. Exercise stimulates the body and releases anabolic hormones causing the nutrients eaten to be for the use of repair instead of storage.
    Obviously there is a point of overtonis(overtraining) but very few reach that level unless extremely starved.

    Reply
  29. Dermatend,

    This afternoon i had a double shot vanilla latte made at this local coffee shop, they use fresh local milk and real cane sugar syrup. Afterwards i stopped off at wholefoods market to get some rocky mountain yellow potatoes… I had a 1/2 pound slice of mushroom/spinach pizza, and made a big ass salad to go with it…. they have oil free dressings there now… which is awesome, wholefoods seems to want to put canola oil in everything.

    Tonight i am probably having the halfpound of shrimp in my fridge with a ton of brown rice all fried up in coconut oil… and some broccoli thrown in as well.

    now i am off to have another vanilla latte at this other awesome local coffee house, i have a huge crush on the barista girl who works there.

    troy

    Reply
  30. On Supersize vs. Superskinny –

    One of the most fascinating things I've read was by M.R.C. Greenwood – an obesity researcher. He noted in no uncertain terms that obese strains of mice can be given the same amount of food as lean littermates, and turn that shit into fat.

    Even more interesting was the fact that, when left to eat as much food as they wanted, they got fat on the same amount of calories as the lean controls… AND THEN started eating more. In other words, storing fat made them need to eat more. And, the fatter you are, the higher your basal metabolic needs. Fat people have to eat a lot of calories just to keep their bodies warm. Call it 7 calories per day per pound of extra body fat.

    As for sucrose, thanks for the pass along Riles. I'm not easily seduced by short-term studies, especially on a diet that is totally unrealistic and based on nutrient-free sucrose. But it could be that sugars are more metabolically stimulating, which is the danger of consuming nutrient-devoid sugars. Perhaps befriending sugars will be the long-term fate of 180. We shall see. I still rip on it pretty hard in the new ebook revision, but am fair, and have plenty to say about other factors.

    By the way, it's looking like Thursday could be the big day on the release of that. It will clarify my position on a lot of things for you JT, in a way that you'll be able to relate. Got a whole page on your hero Mr. Abel too.

    Glad you guys liked the podcast. It made my mom proud at least, which is all that really counts in the end.

    Reply
  31. Oh yeah, and no exercise. That's temporary advice from me, but you knew that. The point is creating maximal calorie surplus. I'm not ready to tell the milk diet gurus they didn't know what they were doing with that whole bed rest for a month thing. The bottom line is that they achieved what I'm trying to achieve with overfeeding. Could they have achieved it with exercise too? Maybe. Who knows. But I don't think it's necessary, and probably a net-negative for raising body temperature authentically (not relying on adrenal stimulation from stress).

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  32. Marcie Greenwood is a she, who went on to be an unpopular chancellor at USCS before being promoted even higher into the echelons of the UC Regents.

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  33. i think the no exercise for a time is so important. a lot of people today never get enough rest. they don't get enough sleep chronically, and take dayquil to stay at work during colds and flu's.

    good old fashioned convalescing is out of style but so important for rebuilding.

    low energy might just be a sign that we need to rest until we naturally regain our energy.

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  34. Thanks Mike! Only read one book with M.R.C. Greenwood et al. Had no idea what the gender was. Got it now though.

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  35. JT and Riles,
    I haven't seen the video of supersize v superskinny, but shouldn't you be careful with all documentaries making the conclusion that most fat people eat more. Maybe that was the bias of the researcher. Did he randomly select people to be in this study?

    Reply
  36. @anonymous

    I don't recall Matt ever asking to be taken seriously. Most people whose goal it is to be taken seriously – should not be.

    Reply
  37. I agree with Danyelle plus Matt keep up the gangsta talk its some of the most entertaining stuff I have read makes me LOL everytime….

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  38. You betta check yo'self nonymus, reknize Stone digz be droppin' mo knowledge than Aristotle on dat ass! Nah mean? Freal y'all.

    Reply
  39. Thought I'd repost a blog response I had to Jimmy Moore on his EGG/CHEESE/BUTTER diet.

    Andreas, I appreciate your input! I’m fully aware of everything you’ve noted and am doing what’s working for me. A simple answer of “eat less, exercise more” doesn’t cut it.

    –Jimmy

    Jimmy, I feel that is a real cop-out response. <—- where I started.

    1: Do you make an effort to walk 30-60 minutes a day? Do you strength train/interval train 2x a week? Andreas was correct in saying that there is nothing like exercise for lowering blood glucose. In fact, it is unrealistic to think you you can be healthy without a significant amount of activity, especially someone with your genetic background. I’ve seen many low carbers blog about how they usually had fasting blood glucose in the 90-100s until they really started to work out — and then their fasting blood glucose was in the 80s. Even if I prefer more carbs in a diet, exercise is the best way to lower blood glucose.

    2: Is it possible that you are eating too much? Too many calories from any source could possible contribute to weight gain. And in response to your new diet, even if eggs, cheese, butter are low carb foods, they are also some of the foods that raise insulin more than is expected from their carbohydrate content (there are charts online about foods and their insulin responses). You could be severely stressing your pancreas out with this type of diet. Do you really feel that optimal health for you demands that you deviate from pastured beef/fish/veggies/berries (other fruit)– a balanced paleo diet? I would hope one day you might consider that dairy foods raise insulin too much and that artificial favoring and sweeteners also cause problems.

    3: Once dairy foods are reduced, you only risk problems from high omega 6 foods. When you keep omega 6 low, your metabolism will start to pick up — but only when you start to increase your source of glucose (doesn’t have to be a lot, but probably more than 50grams a day) — which is either going to come from fruit/tubers or conversion from protein. Why have your body convert protein to glucose when you can just eat mineral rich foods as nature intended? Also, it might be prudent to get a source of iodine or sea veggies to support your thyroid.

    Good luck Jimmy, I want you to be healthy. I hope you reach your goals.

    -Aaron

    THANKS Aaron! I’m addressing all of those issues right now and have been for over two years.

    –Jimmy

    Side note: excercise will always be part of the picture. also, you need to what your food intake to some degree. I agree with a lot of the core ideas behind HED — but I still believe calories matter, and if you eat too much, you might become overweight.

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  40. Why is 65% of America overweight or obese? I really thought it had to do with all the processed carbs we eat. This isn't believed here on this blog?

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  41. Matt already said in the podcast that refined and unrefined podcasts are two entirely different beasts.
    I don't think that anyone here eacutally recommends eating processed carbs.
    Now some commenters may have another opinion and that's fine, but I think most people on this blog and Matt aswell for sure are all about unrefined and all against (tremendous amounts of) refined carbs. With exceptions perhaps, I don't really think there's anything wrong with white rice.

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  42. Aaron Curl-

    Yes, refined carbs have a LOT to do with worldwide weight problems – refined sugar being the greatest contributor by a longshot in my current "official" belief.

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  43. This certainly sticks it to all those fools saying Matt was being condescending to Jimmy Moore in his Poor Poor Jimmy Moore blog post. Dumb bastards

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  44. Don't believe the hype concerning refined carbs being bad. I eat lots of refined carbs every day, the more I eat the leaner I get, as long as I keep my fat low. Almost all of asia lives on refined carbs (white rice) without obesity.

    Refined carbs and sugar are just modern scapegoats. The real problems are PUFAs, excess calories, and sedentary lifestyle. Sugar is WAAY down on the list.

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  45. Aaron, that is a good response to Jimmy. But, That is not enough exercise for someone who leans toward being fat. He needs to do a lot more, and keep it up for life. It is the only hope for him in the long run.

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  46. Asians eat hardly any gluten though. I just don't think white rice is the same thing as bread made with white flour and chemicals.

    Re: Jimmy, he used to weight train and do LOTS of exercise and it made no difference to his weight.

    He actually has antibodies to his thyroid and IMO needs to continue to increase his thyroid, as he is only on a low starting dose.

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  47. First, the term "working out" can mean hundreds of different things with various levels of productivity, some even negative.

    Almost all societies refine their grains and starches to rid it of fiber and other anti-nutrients and increase the digestibility.

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  48. He lifted weights three times a week for a good six months. He also took part in a boot camp of cardio and weights for three weeks.

    When I was in Thailand, I saw lots of fresh fish (as in caught that day and they laid it out on the beach for dinner), lots of rice, lots of potato, lots of pork, lots of egg. I did not see people scoffing bread at every meal.

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  49. Why did Price et al report degeneration associated with refined sugar and flour, and never mention PUFA's. I don't remember reading that the traditional cultures has access to seed oils, just refined white powders.

    I do believe that PUFA's are the #1 culprit today, but degeneration was reported with refined carbs.

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  50. JT wrote – ¨Refined carbs and sugar are just modern scapegoats. The real problems are PUFAs, excess calories, and sedentary lifestyle. Sugar is WAAY down on the list.¨

    True. Who eats sugar by itself right from the package? Those who believe that sugar by itself is addictive are wrong. In real life, lots of people have trouble eating enough food to mantain weight with a diet based on orange juice with SUGAR added (www.waisays.com). As long as you don´t mix the sugar with addictive crap like refined wheat flour, thus increasing the addictive potential, you will quickly realize that your body will let you know when it has had enough sugars. But those feedback mechanisms of appetite control are impaired if you mix sugar with refined flour.

    Max

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  51. Nobody ever reported degeneration on refined sugar only. Maybe the real culprit is refined wheat flour.

    For those who are more well-read than me, did someone ever reported degeneration on refined wheat flour in the absence of refined sugar?

    Max

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  52. Undertow:
    I think what Weston price saw was more nutritional deficiencies due to white sugar and white flour making up most of the calories and therefore leading to "displacement" of nourishing foods. I don't think he necessarily saw obesity.

    I think that some of the problems seen today are similar but I am beginning to believe that the main cause of slow metabolism and obesity is in fact PUFA's. While other problems are caused by lack of vitamins and minerals.

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  53. Weston A Price definitely noticed the problem with PUFAs (though he didn't study the fat type specifically). He mentions quite often the problem of butter being replaced by "vegetable fat."

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  54. Thanks for the input guys. What I am trying to figure out is if refined wheat flour can cause degeneration by itself in the absence of refined sugar. I think it can.

    And if refined sugar by itself is capable of causing degeneration in the absence of refined white flour. I believe it can´t (if the rest of the diet is good; low PUFA, etc.).

    Max

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  55. Anon Max,
    I have similar feelings as you. I am currently trying to gather as much anthropological information as I can on this. I already posted about how the Ojibway Indians would live on Maple Sugar for periods of time.

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  56. Acutall, I think all this unrefined sugar talk sounds kinda intuitive. Becuas when you look at it, unrefined sugar is pretty much like fruit without water/fiber, am I correct?
    So if fruit is okay, which it certainly is, at least for someone healthy, then unrefined sugar should be okay too. I'm very open to this, but still won't eat any sugar and bigger amounts of fruit anytime soon.

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  57. Thanks for responding Riles. It seems also that not all refined starches behave the same way. Refined rice is something completelly different from refined wheat for instance. Every time I eat too much wheat flour I get constipated. I never experience this effect with rice, polenta or other refined or semi-refined starches. Everything I have seen up to now points to the direction that gluten and/or other peptides found in wheat are better avoided.

    I have yet to experiment with organic whole wheat grains, and see if its effect is similar to that of white flour.

    Max

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  58. Good podcast. Liked the distinction between refined and unrefined carbs. Not sure about Furman though. Was he telling patients to load up on starchy vegs?

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  59. No, the number one culprit is neither fructose nor PUFAs. The number one culprit is processed food. If we eliminate processed foods such as refined sugar, refined flour, and PUFA oils, our health will become better.

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  60. Some people say "PUFAs are more harmful". Some other people say "fructose is more harmful".

    These statements are meaningless. If PUFAs are more harmful, then how much PUFAs are more harmful than how much of fructose?

    You must specify the quantity. We all agree that 400 grams of fructose per day is more harmful than one gram of extra PUFAs. We all agree that 10 grams of PUFAs are more harmful than 20 grams of fructose.

    You must specify the quantities before you compare. Otherwise, your statements are meaningless, and you are just saying them from your anecdotes, not from scientific evidence.

    I am the same "anonymous" poster as the above.

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  61. We're just speculating as to what the predominant key player is in the development of modern disease. I know from reading T.L. Cleave that refined oils don't appear to be a necessary ingredient in causing the many diseases related to impaired glucose metabolism. However, there's plenty of speculative and theoretical evidence against excessive PUFA as well. The problem is that we've accumulated too many of these fatty acids on a cellular level in the West.

    As far as specifics, consuming more of these oils won't necessarily make the problem much worse. We're already nearing that threshold. As far as what it would take to reverse that cumulative imbalance, the program developed by Bill Lands is supposed to be very accurate in making projections about changes in cellular levels of Arachidonic Acid given current intakes of omega 6 and 3.

    Reply

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