Adrenal Fatigue

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Oh man I’m feelin’ it!  No not adrenal fatigue.  IT!  Like, my mojo is flowing and I’ve undergone several major breakthroughs in my understanding of late.  The first has been that sugar (as opposed to starch) is probably your friend, not your enemy.  An even bigger breakthrough for me perhaps has been developing a much deeper understanding of amino acids and why muscle meat, poultry in particular, has consistently been throwing my body into an inflammatory and hyper-stressed tailspin despite my religious adherence to a low omega 6 diet (and always has, but I never could come up with a logical reason for why that might be).  We’ll discuss this later in the week.  It’s beyond fascinating and the health impacts for me have been instantaneous.

Anyway, adrenal fatigue has been an ongoing item of discussion at 180 for a long time.  Just a couple days ago Hawaii Girl was asking about potassium in fruits and orange juice and wondering if this was the true “no-no” that James L. Wilson, author of Adrenal Fatigue, claims it is for adrenal fatigue suffererers.  But other than what is laid out in my eBook about how to RAISE YOUR METABOLISM, which tells people to rest up, get plenty of sleep, avoid endurance exercise, and eat lots of food at the first sign of hunger throughout each and every day – we really haven’t addressed the topic.  My specialty has been knowing what causes it, not necessarily how to recover from it other than stopping all the crap that caused it and putting a rabbit’s foot on your keychain.

But I’ve been very pleased to find the Rubin’s of East West Healing lately, who I believe are breaking beyond the adrenal testing and supplementation model of dealing with the disorder.  And they are doing it primarily by following the ideas of Ray Peat – high meal frequency, sucrose-rich foods combined with proteins having a low-inflammatory amino acid profile (eggs, cheese, gelatin), and of course a high ratio of saturated to unsaturated fat to keep from interfering with glucose clearance.

Anyway, I can’t wait to dive into this into the near future.  I am scheduled to be on Josh and Jeanne’s blogtalk radio show on the 22nd later this month in which we’ll get to talk about some of this stuff two on one, and really dive into the practical of what really does work for getting people unstuck in their battles against sputtering adrenal glands.  Here’s a great video by Josh done on Friday explaining where he’s coming from on the topic of adrenal fatigue and why he’s talking so loud.  Josh is taking some courageous steps towards not only rethinking adrenal fatigue, but RE-SPELLING adrenal fatigue!!!

97 Comments

  1. This is especially timely for me as I just got back my results of my Adrenal Salivary test and my Cortisol is very low, pretty much flatlined….. I am starting to wonder what the best way for me to heal these adrenals up is? Right now meal frequency/BS stabilisation seems like a biggy as its the only thing I have been neglecting

    Really looking forward to the show with Josh he is quite a character…….

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  2. Hmm- becoming real Ray Peat-y around these parts lately. Be interested to see where all this leads to. Keep on searching amigo.

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  3. One other thing- I always wondered about why it was that we loved sugar and fat and salt so much, and yet they were supposedly not good for us. Well, enter whole foods, WAPF wisdom and salt and fat became good for us! I wondered why sugar still wasn't, and always appreciated Ray Peat for boostering it.

    As it turns out, you're coming around to being a friend of sugar too (maybe). Certainly offers some logical consistency for taht observation I'd had.

    Will keep an eye out for developments and new insight.

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  4. Hey Matt. So is this what you are pretty much recommending now: eat unrefined fruit, starch, veggies, eggs, cheese, and saturated fat. Avoid PUFAs and processed sugars, excluding pure molasses (what about Sugar in the Raw?). Protein from animal meat is not that necessary. Workout with intensity from time to time. Sleep as much as possible. Eat to satiety? Where does regular pasteurized milk fit into all of this? Thanks.
    I find this intriguing because I had a salad at lunch (chicken breast, romaine, spring mix, feta, olive oil and balsamic vingar) and my attention span while at my desk was horrible!

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  5. subscribing

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  6. HI Matt
    what about Acne what do u suggest for that??
    in the rrarf are u still preferring starch to sugar for recover an optimal body temperature??
    or is both allright to eat??

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  7. It's become quite Peatey indeed. His work reconciles a lot of cognitive dissonance I've had over several things – like why all my back pain and allergies went away years ago when I was eating mostly fruit, only to return with a vengeance after years on a low-carb diet. Or why the only times I have body odor us under high levels of stress, when I am feeling ill, or after eating a lot of muscle meat without a lot of other food with it.

    Anyway, the Peat rabbit hole is deep and very fascinating.

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  8. Sugar is your friend and muscle meat is inflammatory – Matt, you must have been reading Ray Peat recently.

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  9. Very interesting. Can't wait to dig into this more.

    One thing that's always seemed to exacerbate the already defunked state of my adrenals is spicy food. It can literally make me feel sick the next day I'm so worn out if I overeat spicy stuff. And now that I think of it, spicy chicken tacos were the worst culprits. Hmmmm.

    Anyhow, upward and onward…

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  10. Mark, I don't know what exactly I would "recommend." If anything you could say RRARF is going through some exploratory revisions to possibly improve it.

    In RRARF I say not to eat too much protein because protein is anti-thyroid. But that seems to be only true of certain amino acids concentrated in muscle meats.

    Anonymous-

    I generally recommend overfeeding on a low polyunsaturated fat diet for acne, and this usually helps people improve the quality of their skin after the first few weeks of transition (which often cause a worsening of acne). But like I said above, it's always a work in progress to make things more effective for more people. In my experience with it, sugar promotes acne far more than starch, but it does seem to vary quite a bit from individual to individual.

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  11. Thank you Matt will keep on with the starch and see what happens

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  12. Eggs are actually one of the richest sources of both methionine, cysteine and tryptophan, way higher than poultry for instance. Shellfish are also pretty high in these amino acids, about comparable to poultry. I'm also not sure why Peat would single out muscle meats as particularly bad when the fact is that stuff like beef and pork tenderloin are about equal and in some cases lower in these amino acids than organ meats like liver and kidney. And compared to beef, whole eggs have like three times as much cysteine per gram of protein. Amino acids and protein source recommendations is one area where I sometimes don't get where Peat is coming from.

    The best bet if you want to avoid methionine, cysteine and tryptophan (not sure if Peat has picked on others) is probably cheese, fish and gelatin. For just cysteine restriction, beef and lean pork aren't that bad.

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  13. Colldén said…

    "Eggs are actually one of the richest sources of both methionine, cysteine and tryptophan, way higher than poultry for instance. … The best bet if you want to avoid methionine, cysteine and tryptophan (not sure if Peat has picked on others) is probably cheese, fish and gelatin."

    Now this is fascinating, because these are exactly the proteins I have gravitated to over the past couple months. Well, dairy and fish anyway. Eggs in particular I've gotten very out-of-the-mood for (though I do include them in recipes where I don't have to taste them directly (like pancakes)). I'm not a big fan of most cheeses (although there are certain extraordinarily tasty exceptions), but milk and fish have been my staples. I need to see about adding some gelatin and see what happens.

    That video was sorta', kinda' a waste of time. I'm happy he's had a breakthrough. I wish he spent even 2 minutes discussing what it was.

    My words of wisdom for the day (full disclosure, N=1): Don't do a PACE workout if you didn't get enough sleep. It only makes it worse. I feel like crap.

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  14. I take it back. Maybe I don't know what the f#ck I'm doing. Just had a phone consult with Josh Rubin. Will begin his program next week. He warned me that his advice will be "against the grain". I don't care how damned unconventional it is as long as it works. Will keep you posted.

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  15. I've been experimenting with some things for my adrenal fatigue.

    I too got a Salivary Hormone test and found it to be pretty useless. Most of the numbers were 'normal' but I had been feeling anything BUT NORMAL lately.

    Here's a couple of things that have been helping ALOT:

    First, like Josh said in the video it is VERY important to get rid of the STRESSOR!!! For myself it was a lung and digestive infection of some sort(I've also got a UTI which may still be stressing the adrenals too). A couple garlic cloves a day for a few days and BAM…those little critters are gone.

    Second, was mega dosing of magnesium before bed…..like 1000mg or more(a little zinc too). Now, I do have low magnesium levels as I had a hair analysis done a year or so ago and I use ANGSTROM magnesium NOT chealated tablets or capsules. My butt wouldn't like me very much if I took that much from tabs or caps.

    Third, was more carbohydrates before bed, particularly starch. I've been on a high fat (both animal and plant) diet for 2 years now and it has been affecting my sleep BIG TIME. Matt has touched on this subject enough so no further explanation ( of course I say this as I am eating 2 avocados and some crackers :) I'll make sure I have me some carbs before bed so don't worry.

    Later peeps

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  16. How are you doing with the PACE program otherwise so far Brock, lost any visible amount of fat yet? I've been doing intervals on an eliptical 3 times per week for about 2 weeks now, and definitely have not been losing any fat yet. The opposite if anything, although I can't single out the effect of the interval exercise on that since I've also been eating about 1500 calories extra daily since I started fruit carb loading five days ago.

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  17. Hm interesting. A little lost as I have not been following the blog for several months. I left off around The Gabriel Method time as it was going deeper into weight (loss) and that is not an issue for me.

    But just got your email update and this drew me back in. I would say I "cured" myself from adrenal fatigue (stage 6/7? I was bed-ridden and on my way out) – took at least 4 years and I started with nutrition and ended up more with the mind-body connection. Nutrition is still huge in my life, but ain't nothing going to be cured longterm with mental-emotional (gasp might I say spiritual) baggage.

    I never read Ray Peat in depth (don't draw me in!), but I browsed and I picked up stuff here between you and that other guy who's ear exploded on the milk diet.

    I think the key phrase in the above video is "well it's different for everyone."

    Nutrition-wise I will say I combined Traditional/Raw Foods with Ayurveda.

    Doesn't Peat say sugar is relaxing? Because on stressful days (this includes high exercise days) I will eat sweet foods to "calm my nerves," but on normal days the same thing will feed anxiety.

    Oh and gelatin, or for me – bone broth made from the whole carcass of local, organic pastured chickens – is one of my superfoods. I ate that at least 3x a day my first 6 months of recovery. -Cris

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  18. Although Peat's amino recommendations are based on good evidence, his food source recommendations don't necessarily reflect his ideas on aminos. For example, he recommends milk, shellfish, eggs, and cheese, all of which have lots of tryptophan (as Collden mentioned above). Milk and cheese have low cysteine though.

    I've been gradually eating less and less "typical" meat over the past months, making more gelatin/bone broths/soups, which is in part due to nutrition knowledge, but mostly I think due to taste. I enjoy only small amounts of "muscle" meat now, and I prefer to get my non-dairy animal protein from gelatin or organs. I've never noticed "adrenal fatigue," so I can't say if I feel much better, but I think it's interesting that I've slowly spontaneously consumed less of the commonly eaten meats.

    I've always wondered if this is a reason why many low carbers fail, as it shouldn't (from empirical and physiological evidence) happen.

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  19. Good stuff Matt.

    Perhaps it's orthorexia creeping in, but Peat's ideas initially come off as totally wack.

    Having said that, when actually applying his ideas, they work out beautifully.

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  20. Nice commentary, Thanks for the details stephan and cris. Stephan I am wondering what symptoms you were experiencing, despite your tests coming back within normal range?

    One thing I don't get when it comes to sugar and peats thinking with adrenal fatigue is — Sugar/Fruit relaxes the adrenals, therefore lowering cortisol. What good is this for people with low cortisol and the inability to produce sufficient cortisol?
    Probably explains why I wake feeling fine but having too much sugar without balancing it with protein/starch/fat makes me feel shaky, cold and anxious. It makes sense for someone with strong adrenals to eat sugar as it would probably make them feel more relaxed as it would lower cortisol to a good range.

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  21. John and Collden-

    Agree completely that Peat's assessment of aminos are really good but translates poorly to his dietary recommendations.

    The most interesting idea, and I'll be going off on this tomorrow in a blog post among other protein-related things, is that half of the protein in an animal is tied up in collagen, skin, bone, etc. Eat a lot of the flesh without the complementary protein found in the rest of the carcass (which doesn't contain methionine, cysteine, or tryptophan), and you develop problems. Our modern gravitation toward eating increasingly tender cuts of meat, ditching the skin, and rarely if ever eating things cooked on the bone would thus make this a primary culprit.

    It's interesting that the only meat I've eaten that routinely makes me feel like I could out-wrestle Brock the next day is ribs. Every time I eat a big slab of ribs I feel like I could cut diamonds with my fingernails the next morning.

    But yeah, I've been reading more than just Peat. I also recently read Kilmer McCully's Homocysteine Revolution which has some interesting tie-ins to metabolism and Peat and am currently reading Deep Nutrition which is nuts about broth (although the authors don't seem to have any direct knowledge about individual amino acids like Peat).

    Anyway, tomorrow's post will be interesting. Perhaps annoyingly so.

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  22. Matt,

    Yea, ribs with dry rub is probably my favorite meal. On Bizarre Foods (Mongolia), Andrew ate with some nomads who prepared a goat: Their favorite part was the skin and fat.

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  23. Chris,
    Your symptoms have nothing to do with relaxation of the adrenals. Sugar activates the adrenals and triggers the release of adrenalin.

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  24. Jannis-

    Your recent post on this was very interesting, especially in light of how the general feeling regarding HGH is very positive, and how sucrose raised HGH and led to greater lean muscle and less body fat than starch or fat. Any thoughts you care to share are welcome. I know you are sort of on the fence as to how you feel about sugar vs. starch at the moment – as are all of us.

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  25. Hi Matt, i have been reading your blog for some time now and I wonder if you have some advise for me. Because of severe sarcoidosis I have been taking a lot of prednisone, which screwed up my hormonal balance and made me gain 20 kilo. My base temperature is 37,4 Celcius (99.3 F).
    I follow your food recommandations, like eating low omega 6, whole foods, etc.
    Do you heve an idea how to couterbalance the prednisone?

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  26. Oh good – I've been feeling so stuck in blah mode. I even started taking Isocort, with the result that, yup, I lay down and nap right after. No affect. I'm exhausted, but antsy and bored with being tired. When I exercise, I don't last long. I'm not even truly muscle tired when I stop exercising… just… blahed out. So I need adrenal recovery.

    I did the salivary test but made the mistake of doing it thru a dr, the result being that, according to HI law, I don't get to see my results unless the dr lets me. And she won't unless I come back in and pay her to tell me about my results. Unfortunately, paying the dr is not high on our financial priority list right now.

    I've noticed the kids and I really loving the broth from bone-in chuck roast.

    And when I cut out bananas, I go thru major cravings, so I think they can't be as bad as Wilson says. I'm not sure how Peatish I am though. When I was raw, I ate frequently, especially fresh fruit, and I ate lots of eggs and cheese and raw milk, and little muscle protein. Hardly any cooked starch, though, no gelatin either, and I must say, lots and lots of nuts (the raw staple). So maybe the PUFAs messed it all up, but I'm pretty sure that diet didn't help my adrenals at all. It certainly killed the sex drive.

    Anyhow, give us more Matt.

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  27. Lisa Sargese:

    Just out of curiosity, how much are the consultations going to cost you?

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  28. Chris,

    My greatest symptom was not being able to get fully rested, ya know that feeling of waking up refreshed. This has been going on 2 full years, ironically since eating a high fat diet. I would tire easily throughout the day especially after some form of exercise, even if it was light.

    Anyhow, what's been working for me the best is making sure I get good sleep. Like mentioned above, those things have been helping. I'm not a champion sleeper yet but almost.

    What have you been doing to improve your adrenals?? What are your main symptoms??

    Still trying to understand why I'm getting MUCH better sleep eating some form of carbohydrate before bed(particularly starch, definitely NOT fruit). Anyone got any ideas??? Matt???

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  29. Matt,
    It's definitely kind of ironic that I am currently reconsidering some of my ideas about sugar at a time where you are starting to think that sugar might not be the enemy ;)

    I am sure watching this whole debate with great interest and will weigh in whenever I have something to contribute.

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  30. Oh wow, so much to chew on, coming thick and fast.

    Cris (one of the Anonymi)–I'm so glad that you brought up the mind-body connection: I feel the same way about my healing process, and sometimes feel a little cautious about saying so. Which is funny, considering that a lot of nutritional research can lead you to think that the whole spread is a bunch of good(or not good) faith and magical thinking, and of course we're all a bunch of guinea pigs…except we're also the experimenters…

    I can see that I'm going to have to go a little farther down the Peat rabbithole and have my mind blown a bit farther, just to follow along with this. It's great to get everything challenged, even if confusing.

    Interesting, when I experimented with eating meat, the only thing I was drawn to and enjoyed was the bone broths (I got laughed at a lot for that)! And now someone brings up Peat condemning carrageenan, and I eat all this irish moss (whole, so probably not as 'bad'), which is basically gelatin made out of seaweed!

    Looking forward to more of this (but really, sugar can be good for you???)

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  31. I'm loving the direction in which things are moving over here. Matt, your dedication to stringing together instinct, common sense, modern science and personal observation into a simple and elegant theory of nutrition is inspiring. Chalk up these latest revelations as a win for consillience, a win for sanity, and a win for our collective health and happiness.

    Funny how we as a society have managed to complicate so thoroughly something so innate to us as diet. It would seem we have enabled a band of self-congratulating hacks and charlatans to pollute our cultural heritage, override our natural instincts, and overwhelm our commons sense. Thank goodness for guys like you working to correct the imbalance.

    Brother, keep getting your voice out there. You're doing a heck of a lot of good.

    Matt Stone for the thinking man's diet!

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  32. Ack. The one thing I'm fairly successful at is cutting out sugar — and now that's wrong? Your advice is shifting so fast, I'm beginning to think it JUST DOESN'T MATTER WTF you eat. Just don't be gross about it.

    Dude, what's next: running? I'm a step ahead of you. :D

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  33. Does Peat have any beef with fiber? His diet is conspicuously low in Monastyrsky's menace.

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  34. This blog and its community are more often than not uncannily in sync with my own changing dietary patterns. Like last year when I started contemplating the milk diet, then all of a sudden 180DM was all about the milk diet too. Now, as I've been limiting muscle meats and getting my protein mostly from milk, eggs, fish, broth, and organs, others here have come around to the same. I love it.

    Matt,
    About two years ago, during the first two months after I ditched processed foods cold turkey and started eating all whole foods, I felt totally euphoric almost all the time. After those first two months the euphoria wore off and my moods returned to their usual range from mellow contentment to mild melancholy. I figured the intense happiness of those first two months was just due to the excitement and high hopes over making a radical dietary change, and as the novelty wore off, so did the euphoria. Now I wonder if it had anything to do with the fact that–fresh off a sugar dependency–I ate way more fruit during those two months than at any time before or since. What do you think? I get almost all my carbs from starch now, and it keeps my moods even, but never really "elevated" and elated. Also, could the mood boosting potential of fruit be due to its vitamin C rather than its fructose, or is there something special about fructose with respect to elevating mood?

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  35. Everyone can ignore what I said about not doing PACE on short sleep. The real lesson for today is don't do PACE while in the first stages of coming down with a fever. You can file this one under "Duh".

    And I do have a fever. Last temp was 101.3, which is a tad high even for me. At least the chills and body aches have passed. Absolutely no idea what I have, as fever is my only symptom. Let's hope that Adrenal Type goodness does it's magic.

    —-

    Colldén, I like the PACE workouts. I have been doing them about a month and a half now. First I gained weight like crazy (+13 lbs) in just February, but I saw no increase in measurements, so it must have been a swap-out of fat for muscle. In the last week or so I have started to lose a bit, and I'm now down 4 lbs from my high (still a net gain of +9 lbs).

    But I think these are all good changes. I can see more muscular definition peeking through the flub in the upper body, legs and even abs. (I'm not kidding about the abs – my wife noticed it too. They must be frickin' huge to create a "bulge in the curtain" (like someone hiding behind a curtain? Get it?).) I have also recently fit into my next smaller size pants, despite being up 9 lbs. They're still a bit tight around the hips and I probably shouldn't be wearing them, but I can't help it. The fact I can wear them, walk easily and sit comfortably is just awesome.

    I also love how energized and alive I feel after a PACE workout (other than today, obviously). I go to the YMCA before work and it's a great way to start the day. I would definitely keep doing them even if progress wasn't as rapid.

    —-

    Matt, if your quest for knowledge, have you run across anything suggesting that gelatin (the powder that comes in a big plastic container) is someone not effective or even bad for you? I like chicken and fish stocks, but they're a major pain in the arse to prepare. They also seek to rarely gel for me; not sure why. And beef broth is $$$ to make. I'd much rather just add some gelatin to stuff for convenience.

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  36. John (or any other organ-eaters),

    Do you eat kidneys? If so, how do you prepare them? I haven't found a way to make them palatable, and after sort of OD'ing on liver a while ago, I'm looking for other organs to add to my rotation besides heart and sweetbreads.

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  37. "This blog and its community are more often than not uncannily in sync with my own changing dietary patterns."

    I feel the same way, Mike.

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  38. Brock,

    I find chicken feet (cooked about 12 hours) and beef knuckle bones (cooked about 24 hours) gel the best. I let them sit in lukewarm water with a little apple cider vinegar for an hour or two before cooking to help break them down. If I'm using chicken feet, I also slash all the skin on the "palms" of the feet before cooking to help the good stuff escape. It's all pretty fast and easy once you get your method down–and cheap, too, if you have a good source for the bones. If your stocks still don't gel when refrigerated, try using more bones the next time.

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  39. Its a bit annoying how your always changing your mind! One minute refined sugar is to be avoided especially if you have adrenal fatigue and next minute its great for your body, even better than starch! I though starch 4 life was basically the 180 degree health motto lol

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  40. Very intresting

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  41. Mike Jones,

    What sort of feet-2-water ratio do you use?

    You don't eat the feet, do you? My wife (who is Chinese) loves them, but thievery thought makes me want to climb a wall (just bust through it, Kool-Aid style) to escape.

    —–

    James M,

    You clearly haven't been here since the days of "Two Stocks Of Butter A Day". Good times.

    There are several 180 mottos ("Eat The Food!!"), but the one motto to rule them all (and in the darkness bind them) is "Never Assume You Have The Final Answers."

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  42. Fucking auto-correct!!!!

    "the very thought"

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  43. Well, I'm real curious to see how this all turns out. We're coming full circle — but that's ok. I mean, until people figure out what works, ya gotta keep trying. And I firmly believe that there is a solution out there, and it'll be obvious when people find it.

    The one thing I can unambiguously say I've gotten better at over the years is recognizing the various weird little signs that my body's not happy. I'm sure everyone has their own, but mine include things like light insensitivity, tooth pain, 'clicky' ankles and jaw, itchy skin, all along with the regular things everyone knows are bad (fatigue, constipation, etc).

    For example, when I started eating sugar (via fruits & ice cream) 2 weeks ago, I did have a few days with more energy. But it was accompanied by colder hands and leg bouncing, which I now think means that the energy is coming from adrenaline, which a) never lasts for long, b) leads to a crash, and c) comes with nervousness. There was a study someone posted here a couple days ago saying the same thing — that fructose led to increased metabolism, but from adrenaline.

    But on the other hand, my fasting sugar was 86 the other day (best in years). It's usually around 95-100.

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  44. @Mike Jones,

    I think the fruit/vitamin C thing is interesting. As you may know, primates, guinea pigs, and a few other animals are the only ones that can't synthesize their own vitamin C. The anecdote that I've heard is that an average adult goat (100lbs) will make about 13g of C a day. The RDA for a human is 90mg/day, or about 150 times less then the goat would make.

    Now, it seems pretty reasonable to me that we've evolved other systems to allow us to function fine on less C than 13g, because otherwise the ancient northern European caveman would've had some problems. But it's apparently also the case that you burn through more C when stressed, so perhaps caveman could do ok on 100mg, but a modern, chronically stressed-out (whether from work or diet) human might need more.

    Plus, Vitamin C is apparently needed to build collagen, and collagen is necessary for cells to form tight junctions. So I think it's also plausible that vitamin C deficiency could lead to leaky gut, and the resulting inflammation.

    So I could believe that vitamin C can elevate mood. At least one study indicates it helps people deal with stressful situations with less anxiety.

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  45. Ela:

    "And now someone brings up Peat condemning carrageenan, and I eat all this irish moss (whole, so probably not as 'bad'), which is basically gelatin made out of seaweed!"

    Carrageenan is "gelatin-like", but the molecules are completely different from gelatin. Carrageenan is made of polysaccharides, and gelatin is all amino acids (I think).

    Also, in looking up irish moss, I notice it's made into a drink. I don't know– maybe this "highly inflammatory substance" is overblown.

    timmypatch:

    "Funny how we as a society have managed to complicate so thoroughly something so innate to us as diet."

    maggieo:

    "I'm beginning to think it JUST DOESN'T MATTER WTF you eat."

    Yes, food is not hard, as long as it's not nutrition-less and tainted with toxins. Just eat what you like, made in old-fashioned ways (that's the hard part there).
    People have complicated their diets (and lifestyles) because they are desperate to cure their health problems. Through all this, I now think it's probably the little things (toxins, minerals, hormones) rather than the big things (macronutrients) that make the difference– though, long term dieting of course doesn't help. Otherwise, I think our senses tell us what we need, inasmuch as food can do. The polyunsaturates are probably the biggest food item that makes a difference, because these escape monitoring by our senses– unsaturated or not, it all just tastes like fat.

    But, I'll be interested to see if RRARF really does make a big difference for people. Jon Gabriel's story is really hard to believe.

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  46. Hey, since we're discussing Ray Peat so much, maybe now would be a good time to ask everyone: Where did you find out about this guy? I found out about him through this site. He's such an elusive and strange character. I still don't know whether or not he's some kind of nut. If he's right, why isn't there more support for him in the scientific community? Why aren't there more people writing about him and backing him up? And if his miracle cures of progesterone, pregnenolone, and DHEA really work, why haven't they swept the nation, since he's been supposedly healing people with them since the 60s? (I've tried them for my mom's menopause, but it didn't work. I still do not understand why, if estrogen is the problem, that more estrogen takes away the symptoms. Among the long list of estrogen's bad effects, he merely mentions that it's also a stimulant that raises the catecholamines. I'm going to be trying again sometime with additional components to the treatment.)

    The only information I could find about Peat is this source, telling a bit about his short-lived Blake College in Valle de Bravo, Mexico. It's a negative book, and I wouldn't be surprised if it's part of a smear campaign against Peat, but there's probably some truth to it. It describes all the students strung out on drugs at all times. "Nobody cracked a book". Peat is described as being a drug trafficker and dealing with rowdy characters.

    http://books.google.com/books?id=gRjTjvQLvvoC&pg=PA90&lpg=PA90&dq=peat+%22blake+college%22+madeline+Murray+O%27hair&source=bl&ots=cBr1JmRh4C&sig=YSkFT5M38aMv80V23wKSSFYrRms&hl=en&ei=SU1eTe2dMoeCsQO5v9zKCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CBYQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

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  47. @rosenfeltc The initial phone consult is free. Josh and his wife Jeanne offer different programs each with their own rate. If you emailed or called Josh I'm sure he'd be happy to give you details. 760-597-9727

    josh@eastwesthealing.com

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  48. This is interesting, I did an adrenal test and tested low in Cortiol (pretty much flatlined) and DHEA as well as sodium and potassium. The low sodium explained the salt cravings I'd had all my life, to the extent of eating salt from the shaker, even as a child. I also started Rx potassium.

    No otc supplements for adrenal fatigue helped me feel better at all.

    I am on cortef right now, I love the idea of "curing" this with foods but so far, though I eat pretty well and have my whole life I've seen no results from diet effecting my adrenals. I will say that when my adrenals are doing badly I crave junk the most, anything salty and bad for me will do! I wish the video would have delved into specifics.

    Looking forward to your next post.

    Reply
  49. Jannis are you talking to me (Cris not Chris)? Perhaps it's socially engrained or a childhood habit – sugar is comfort and indulging that taste brings a sense of relaxation.

    I definitely do not find sugar sustaining, but more of a helpful addendum. Soda (supposedly crap food I know) helps me balance my electrolytes moreso than just water or special electrolyte drinks. But not alone, as part of a meal. Any input on that? I should mention medically I have an autoimmune disorder (similar to lupus) and so my electrolytes are tricky to keep in balance. Lots of trial and error here and ignoring my naturopath:)

    For me focusing on broth and organs happened because of my studies into Weston A. Price and much later on reinforced by John Robbins. Price talked about nutrient dense food, organs so on, not engorging on muscle meat like typical Americans. I do not consider most muscle meat nutritionally dense.

    Other than the bones, skin, and a little flesh I am not really a chicken fan. I love seafood and feel off if I do not eat some at least 1x week. I prefer red (rare) meat – goat and buffalo. The healthier I am the less I need. On a side note in Ayurveda beef and pork are the worst meats to eat, goat, wild game the best. I feel that coincides with native nutrition and the way the 3rd world still is. Goat is the primary meat in the world not beef. -Cris

    Reply
  50. I enjoyed the vid until he said 'it's different for everyone… call to set up a consult'.

    Knowledge should be free.

    Reply
  51. So the main culprits now are unsaturated fats.

    Yes the change continues.

    I'll keep following the basic diet all the healthiest people in the world eat: hi starch, refined, with the cellulose either heavily processed or removed.

    Sugar I add in though and do fine with. If starch is good, then sugar cant be all that bad.

    Reply
  52. Jared Bond,
    I wouldn't believe what is in that book. Madalyn O'Hair was a nasty bitch and a notorious lair. This book about the same topic describes Peat as a nice guy and Blake college as a excellent place with high quality professors. As I understand it, Madalyn worked for the CIA (her lover was a CIA agent) and wanted to take over the college, what she finally did. Peat narrowly avoided beeing shot and when the school was shut down, they arrested and deported all the students and teachers.

    http://books.google.com/books?id=Shd-voMgrAcC&pg=PP4&dq=ngodly:+the+passions,+torments,+and+murder+of+atheist+Madalyn+Murray+O%27Hair&hl=en&ei=WaKeTNf0DMG88ga4xsx1&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=peat&f=false

    Reply
  53. T Patch in da house!

    James-

    Whoa easy. I'm not an advocate of consuming a sizeable quantity of your calories without nutrients, and try to repeatedly point out the differences between refined and unrefined. Every once in a while sure. I eat refined sugar once per week on average I'd say. But calling white sugar a health food is a bit of a stretch. If anything I'm putting more emphasis on a mineral-rich diet right now.

    Danny-

    Peat does have beef with fiber. He believes that bacterial levels should be kept as low as possible to prevent the excessive production and absorption of endotoxin from the bacteria. This is strange seeing that he is fully aware the butyrate, produced from the fermentation of indigestible material facilitates the transport of T3 into the mitochondrion, making it like coconut oil on speed. I can't help but think with all the hard data we have on high fiber diets, the anti-diabetic effects of fiber, and so on that it may be preferable to eat a lot of indigestibles and currently eat up to 100 grams of fiber per day in my own diet.

    Reply
  54. Barbie,
    Being low in progesterone can cause sugar cravings, basically PMS symptoms but all the time. When you have oestrogen dominance, it suppresses your thyroid, causes transient hypoglycaemia and high levels of adrenaline.

    Jared Bond,
    Regarding progesterone, high doses of natural USP progesterone cream works the best. I started supplementing with it last month and feel fantastic. Oestrogen supplementation shouldn't be necessary.

    Here's some info that might help:

    "Initially progesterone has a stimulatory effect. This is because progesterone activates the oestrogen receptors so making oestrogen the dominant hormone which makes many men and women feel worse.

    With progesterone therapy, progesterone gradually becomes the dominant hormone and symptoms begin to ease. Some women never experience oestrogen dominance, in others it can take several days, whilst in others it can last longer. Much depends on the amount of excess oestrogen that is present.

    Men can also experience oestrogen dominance when first using progesterone.

    It is essential to use enough progesterone, about 100-200mg/day, to overcome the excess oestrogen. Many women use too little, 20-40mg/day, so progesterone is always in the stimulation mode. This leaves them in a permanent state of oestrogen dominance.

    If symptoms are severe, for instance heavy continual bleeding or debilitating hot flushes, up to 400mg/day will be needed.

    Normally men will benefit from 10-20mg/day progesterone, but if a higher than normal amount of oestrogen is present, it's advisable to use up to 100mg/day.

    It is easy enough to reduce the amount of progesterone to the optimum level, once symptoms have resolved. The reduction should always be done slowly over several weeks.

    Please bear in mind that stress drops progesterone levels sharply, so symptoms can come back which puzzles many. Increase the amount used over any stressful time. Large meals also drop progesterone levels, due to an increased clearance rate of the hormone."

    http://www.progesteronetherapy.com

    Reply
  55. Thanks anonymous-

    That's what I hear as well… that it's not a matter of trying some progesterone to see if it works or not, but increasing the dosage until it does work.

    Reply
  56. Having experimented with pretty much every dietary protocol out there I can say with full confidence that some of us have figured out what creates real power, energy and vitality (aka mojo deluxe) in the body. It's a high fruit diet (1000-1600cal), some raw salmon, raw eggs and lots of raw milk. Not at the same time. At least 3000cal daily, more if very active or trying to put insane muscle size onto your frame. Fruit first half of the day, raw animal foods after 17.00 only. Red meats are hard on the body, cooked OR raw dun matter.

    Give the above a 2 week try and you'll stay on it for life. I don't know why or how it works but it does work better than anything out there. You can thank me later or right now everyone is free to try for themselves.

    Reply
  57. Apex,

    I think you should enlist the help of an Arnold quote for that last sentence there.

    "Hear me now, believe me later!"

    Reply
  58. Good stuff here. I look forward to more entries about adrenal fatigue.

    I have adrenal fatigue, and spend most of my free time researching it. Every week my theories completely change. The most recent one, which looks quite promising, is that adrenal fatigue is not so much an issue of the adrenal glands but of HPA-axis dysregulation. The adrenal gland isn't worn out; it's just not getting the appropriate stimulatory (or inhibitory) signals. You may be interested to check it out here. http://www.blogtalkradio.com/undergroundwellness/2010/10/07/the-truth-about-adrenal-fatigue-with-dr-bryan-walsh Bryan Walsh is the only doctor I've heard of who is investigating this.

    Reply
  59. Yup huge fan of Swarzen-Schnitzel.

    Great blog btw, keep kicking ass.

    Reply
  60. Not all fibers are the same.

    Chimps thrive on a high fiber diet but they eat pithy fruits. Feed them a diet high in whole wheat and I'm sure they'd have issues.

    Reply
  61. Apex, can you give an idea of a day eating like that?

    Also matt, dr sears in pace talks about high protien being the key to weight loss, basically you eat in grams of protein the amount equal to your weight of lean muscle mass. thoughts?

    Reply
  62. @Apex_Predator

    How did you find out about this? You know some blog with this diet?

    What are your blood results and stuff saying? Everything alright?

    Tell us more please, what's with grains? Eaten together with the raw animal foods or should we exclude them totally?

    For how long are you on "your" diet?

    Thanks for sharing.

    Reply
  63. @Matt, so what are your current thoughts on drinking calories? That's how I get my dairy and coconut fat daily, and I've been trying to drink some milk, too.

    Made mango lassis several time last week, and those were delicious, too.

    Steadily gaining weight…

    Reply
  64. Wow Matt, this is really interesting. I've really been thinking a lot less lately about "how to eat" or "what to eat" and Rubin's guidelines describe my eating habits fairly well. Strong preference for eggs and cheese. Distaste for muscle meat. Wish to have a fair amount of sucrose in addition to starch. Buttered toast with honey for example.

    Several days ago, I'd decide I'd try poultry again, which I hadn't done for quite a while since quitting low carb. I got leg and thighs from a local farm which I really like. It was weird. I really didn't want the chicken.

    One more comment. Over winter-break I was binging on a lot of sugar, and was just like "whatever, the sugar's here, it's holiday, f**k it". But I still seemed to improve in terms of sleep/adrenal. Well, a lot of the sugar was gingerbread cookies. Those have molasses, right? Something to think about I guess.

    I've been questioning hard whether sugar really is that bad. The evidence doesn't stack up the way it does against PUFAs.

    Reply
  65. The guidelines I gave are the result of 6 years of experimentation with raw veganism, fruitarianism, cooked/raw paleo, raw zero carb, wai diet, av's primal diet etc. You got to tweak and try for yourself to find out what your sweet spot is but there's no doubt that your diet has to be a RAW animal and RAW plants diet preferably from fruits, raw seafood, raw eggs and raw milk/cream.

    How do we know this? Well it keeps alive extremely sick people when they are on it and when they deviate from it for long periods cancer comes back and they start falling apart again. This is where the real diet is tested – in its ability to give life where there shouldn't be anymore. Some of these people are very damaged health wise so what is only a bit inflammatory to normal people creates huge problems for them.

    But something interesting happens when folks like you and me – normal healthy people – try this this AGE-less diet (meaning without AGEs – advanced glycation end products). No amount of theory from my part can convince anybody but once you feel that deep sense of vitality, increased muscle mass, stronger bones, smooth soft shining skin, lucid awareness plus crystal clear thinking you will thank me for just putting this info out there. I don't have to do it and I gain nothing from it. It's just my gratitude for discovering it by trying everything under the sun.

    And no, grains are not good for you no matter how you try to rationalize it. You will feel more energy and vitality without it. And why would you want to eat it anyway. You body is fueled perfectly by a high fruit diet. And in case you may be worrying that lots of fruit will make you fat nothing could be farther from the truth. I was the skinniest when I ate 4000 calories from fruit way back in my fruitarian period. Now think about that.

    Reply
  66. Apex: I have done all of the diets that you've mentioned. I've been eating all raw animal flesh for two years now despite being a full time college medical student. I like Aajonus but don't agree with him on everything. My diet is bit different than yours because I'm a powerlifter. Here's what I usually eat:

    Breakfast: 1 or 2 lbs. RAW WC-Salmon + 12 RAW OYSTERS or Clams

    Lunch: 1 or 2 lbs. RAW Chicken breast or Lamb Chops + Papaya or RAW Beef/Lamb Liver + Coconut

    Dinner: 1 lb. of RAW WC-Salmon or 8 RAW Eggs + Plantain or Butternut Squash + RAW Cheese

    I usually snack on lots of raw eggs, coconuts, bell-peppers or drink parsley-celery juices if I have time.

    Reply
  67. Apex_Predator

    Thank you very much!

    Reply
  68. "but there's no doubt that your diet has to be a RAW animal and RAW plants diet preferably from fruits, raw seafood, raw eggs and raw milk/cream."…" And no, grains are not good for you no matter how you try to rationalize it."

    Hi Apex-Predator,
    for what its worth, you appear to be brimming with enthusiasm, but I would just temper these remarks with the fact that some folk do very poorly on raw diets.
    And grains – for many folk – are not problematic.
    kind wishes, j

    Reply
  69. Apex_Predator…that sounds very "Chief-like", LOL! He and I talked once of a type of "intermittent fasting" where the fast was actually vegan and then the eating window was where you would eat the meat. Very similar to what you described. Thanks for sharing.

    Reply
  70. So Matt, would you think that the addition of Jello would be worthwhile?

    Reply
  71. @JR

    >some folk do very poorly on raw diets<

    Most rawfood diets are not nutrient/calorie dense enough. You need both. There is no comparison to a 3000+ cal raw animal and fruit diet.

    >And grains – for many folk – are not problematic.<

    Well yeah and many people smoke for 40 years before getting cancer or even live to be 100. What appears not problematic in the present moment can do all kinds of nasty shit that we are not aware of. And what's the obsession with grains anyway. They feed that shit to cattle. We didn't become the apex predator aka king of the hill on this planet by eating cattle food. We did it by saturating our systems with perfect fuel from fruit and nourishment from raw fatty acids found in raw animal foods.

    I fear a ban due to excessive/intrusive posting. Sorry Matt.

    Reply
  72. APEX:

    Can I see your blood work results similar to those Matt posted the other day?
    What happens when you eat outside of what you recommend?
    How much do you sleep at night?
    Why eggs AND salmon? Why not just one or the other?
    Can I see a picture/video of you?

    Reply
  73. Brock,

    I don't have any precise ratio of bones to water. I use an average sized crock pot (not sure how many quarts) and fill it with enough water to cover the bones, plus an inch or two extra. I've typically used 2 or 3 beef knuckle bones for beef stock and around 20-30 chicken feet for chicken stock. You might use more or fewer depending on the size of your pot and how much water you're using. I keep the heat set to whatever level maintains a light bubbling on the surface of the water, without reducing the water level so low that I need to add extra water to keep the bones covered.

    By the time your chicken stock is done, you'd never know it was made from feet. The bones all break apart. I scoop out all the little toes with a strainer and throw them out. The larger bones can be used again to make a lighter stock if you want, though the second ones usually don't gel from me.

    Reply
  74. I hope the upcoming post on protein could say how much the amino problem is in the blood of the animal, versus meat after being leached (by soaking in water which is then discarded before cooking). As well as if or how it's cooked.
    Also, since when less tender, it's more indigestible, whether it therefore would have some of the benefit fiber does.
    Thanks,
    A.

    Reply
  75. Matt, I've been trying the all-fruit breakfast for the past six days, followed by a normal meal about two hours later (e.g. 2 eggs and some potatoe fried in butter, and spinach sauteed in coconut oil). I feel light headed, spaced out from shortly after I've finished the fruit and for over three hours after eating the fruit. Does this mean it's not a good idea for me now, or if I keep doing it my body will get used to it?

    Thanks.

    Meighen

    Reply
  76. @Apex_Predator

    I'd like to 2nd the request – can you give us an example of how you eat your RAW animal & plant diet of raw fruits, raw seafood, raw eggs, raw milk/cream on a daily basis? For example, how do you eat the raw eggs, by themselves or mixed with other foods, like mixed in a fruit/veggie smoothie or something? And which veggies do you eat and how? I love RAW SALMON and RAW MILK, fruit, veggies, so no problem for me there. But do you combine these foods as meals or just eat one type of food as a meal at a time? I ask because you said, "It's a high fruit diet (1000-1600cal), some raw salmon, raw eggs and lots of raw milk. Not at the same time." Can you clarify what you mean by not at the same time?

    I would like to experiment with your WAY OF EATING (as I have with many others) for a few weeks, as you suggest, and see what happens. Please tell me more about how you do it on a day to day basis. And are there other resources you would recommend and direct me to?

    Thanks for sharing – and please continue to share your experiences/insights!

    FINAL THOUGHT: things/words can be taken out of context and can be used and twisted in FAVOR or AGAINST any position/theory. That's why I personally experiment with different things, rather than just believe what I hear/read – no matter how 'well-intentioned' the person is and no matter how much they believe it without a doubt. Matt almost always states his positions with little doubt in it at the time he is writing about it. But as we've seen many times, he has later changed his position on things he was once SOOO SURE about. But I LOVE that he is WILLING to openly CHANGE his positions as he learns new info from others and from his own experimenting. That's what keeps me coming back for more. Love you, Matt! :)

    - 180 Follower

    Reply
  77. Apex_Predator said…

    "Having experimented with pretty much every dietary protocol out there…"

    You and Aajonus and Jan K have all "experimented with every diet" and determined the best "one size fits all" diet. But even Aajonus is not as extreme as you, saying red meat is "hard on the body", cooked/raw. It's not hard on MY body. I become calmer and have better digestion & feel happier when I eat beef. If I don't eat it my health, digestion, and mood suffer. I'm not the only person who feels better eating red meat than fatty fish.

    Your advice to eat salmon and tons of fruit is unappealing and beyond most people's budget and it would be hard to eat over 3,000 Calories of those foods because raw food is appetite suppressive, in my experience. I lost weight to like 165 on the Primal diet (at 6 feet tall). And that was with a much wider variety of high-calorie fods than YOU are promoting. Fatty beef has like 4 times more calories than salmon.

    "How do we know this? Well it keeps alive extremely sick people when they are on it and when they deviate from it for long periods cancer comes back and they start falling apart again."

    What you mean "we", white man? AV claims to have caused remission in 236 of 240 cancer cases. He has as much proof as you (zero). We don't determine our diet based on what's keeping some sick person alive, as you can find other sick people who are thriving on another diet, like Jan Kwasniewski or Joel Fuhrman or AV or Dr. WAP. Nice try.

    "No amount of theory from my part can convince anybody but once you feel that deep sense of vitality, increased muscle mass, stronger bones, smooth soft shining skin, lucid awareness plus crystal clear thinking you will thank me for just putting this info out there."

    You are not thinking clearly. I am and my approach is to "forget about diets" and eat food. Not mostly plants or mostly animals or mostly raw or avoiding fructose & PUFAs (from fresh natural sources) because that just makes it harder to eat enough food and more likely to fuck up your metabolism, IMO. I am feeling better every day and my mind is totally clear and calm and peaceful. No thanks to men like AV and Wai. Yes, Wai (of WaiSays) is a male waiter in Amsterdam who has presented himself as a successful female Japanese model. The studies cited by Wai are bogus. The truth is that dieting is dead. The more we limit ourselves, the faster we will degenerate mentally, socially and emotionally if not physically.

    "And no, grains are not good for you no matter how you try to rationalize it. You will feel more energy and vitality without it."

    Talk is cheap. Go win the Olympics Gold medal in ANY event and we can see who has the energy & vitality. Many feel better without fruit.

    "I was the skinniest when I ate 4000 calories from fruit way back in my fruitarian period. Now think about that."

    Yes, it's called emaciation due to protein starvation, malnourishment and probably under-eating (despite your self-reported calorie intake).

    Reply
  78. >Can I see your blood work results similar to those Matt posted the other day?<

    I don't have blood work done except for STDs. Oh yeah I forgot to mention that you'll have more fun in the bedroom too. I'm 28 and have 3x the sex drive I had when 16.

    >What happens when you eat outside of what you recommend?<

    Depends on what you eat. Cooked meat I can feel digestion time is 6 times longer than raw meat. Plus skin looks less smooth. Grains equals instant high and headache next day, most likely due to opioids. But overall if you deviate from the protocol you will feel less vital and energetic because you are using inferior food instead of superior nourishment. The changes in skin are instant and can be seen within 3 days.

    >How much do you sleep at night?<

    6-8 hours

    >Why eggs AND salmon? Why not just one or the other?<

    You can if you want but there's something special about eating them together. In this case 1+1=3

    >Can I see a picture/video of you?<

    I have pictures of me on every diet I tried and you can see all the changes I talk about. They were posted on a raw animal foods forum but I removed them because I wanted to stay anonymous.

    >how do you eat the raw eggs?<

    Just break 8 raw eggs into a glass cup and drink it. Best is right after a raw salmon meal.

    >And which veggies do you eat and how?<

    I don't eat veggies. They are useless except when juiced in huge amounts.

    >do you combine these foods as meals or just eat one type of food as a meal at a time<

    One type of food at a time. I know boring but incredibly effective at extracting and utilizing all the nutrients from your food.

    >Can you clarify what you mean by not at the same time?<

    Meaning fruit first half of the day. Lots of fruit, one or two mono-meals to get 1000-1600 calories. Then raw animal foods preferably after 17.00 as you body seems to just soak up the nutrients at around this time.

    You might just have 2-3 liters of raw milk. That's it. Or have 300gr of raw salmon followed by 8 raw eggs then some raw milk/cream later if want. Raw grass fed meat is fine too but not as optimal as the above.

    Also stay away no run from pasteurized dairy. It's like night and day compared to raw. It seems to do the opposite of raw dairy making you feel/look like crap instead of vibrant and powerful.

    Reply
  79. @Ian

    >No thanks to men like AV and Wai. Yes, Wai is…<

    You don't have to school me who Wai is, I am from Amsterdam myself. The dude helped thousands of people all over the world get rid of acne without charging a penny for it. He could have made a fortune for himself. What have you done lately?

    As for AV the testimonials on the primal diet homepage speak for themselves. The perfect diet is probably somewhere between Wai and AV just like I recommend in my guidelines. Sweet spot might be different depending on lifestyle goals.

    >The truth is that dieting is dead. The more we limit ourselves, the faster we will degenerate mentally, socially and emotionally if not physically.<

    Limiting what is bad for you is a good thing. My diet is responsible for me making more money, having sex with hotter girls and looking like I always wanted to look. It has given me the energy to break through mediocrity and experience the success I currently enjoy.

    Reply
  80. @ apex
    i think i remember you from raw paleo forum – i think you should reconsider being anonymous if you're going to proclaim that you've found the optimal human diet.
    there are so many people in various states of distress that even with your good intentions you can come across as deceitful or crazy.

    if you are indeed sincere and you also want other people to have success, documenting your progress and current state of health would be greatly appreciated.

    for instance, eating so much salmon it would be nice to see a urine toxic metals test to see your mercury levels, etc.

    Reply
  81. @justme
    re:grains
    grains as they exist commonly now are not natural, but man-made/GMO/hybrids that cannot exist in the wild anymore. wild grains that have been minimally hybridized by tribal agricultural methods may not be as bad if only properly prepared in the ancient ways.

    however, remember that those HG/neolithic societies only ate the grains because they had to/would have hunted their meat sources into extinction without some form of dietary inhibition and alternate calorie sources.

    Reply
  82. Darius,

    My original post – that you were referring to – disappeared.

    But thank you for your input. And I agree that our food today is not what it used to be. I do my best to eat foods as close to "natural" as I can get. But I don't stress over eating the occasional unnatural food – because I eat natural and nutritionally well balanced food most of the time – and my body loves me for it.

    I do cook the heck out of grains before eating them. I have no digestion problems or health issues, from them or any foods I eat. I like grains and will continue to enjoy them – as long as I see no reason to stop, personally.

    But that's just me :)

    Reply
  83. @justme
    i wonder how you'd feel if you experimented with a grainless diet for 30 days?

    Reply
  84. Darius,

    I have and for longer than 30 days. I've experimented with many different types of diets. And I'm always open to trying others. But my body always seems to lead me back to a nutritionally balanced diet, like I eat now – on which I feel the most balanced, both physically and mentally. Great health and great mood – consistently.

    But, again, that's just me :)

    Reply
  85. Jannis,

    Thanks a lot for another side to the Ray Peat story! I'll believe that woman made up the bad things about him, because she seems to be downright evil by anyone's account.

    Reply
  86. How funny–I'm gone for two days and while I'm gone, the conversation comes full circle back to Peat! While I was gone, I read a few more of his articles and was having some of the same questions (is he 'right?' is he another Aajonus (with better references))?

    The Pyrrhonian Skeptic part of me is nourished by reading his writings: so maybe caffeine and sugar aren't so bad after all–I can suspend judgment. But I too would love to know more about why his ideas haven't come on to the mainstream more…

    Reply
  87. Apex_Predator and Darius:

    Many people have tried grain-free diets longer than 30 days and had problems. I don't see why you generalize to others, based on your sensitivities.

    Starches may be best for filling muscle glycogen, sugars for liver glycogen. If you're highly active, mostly sugars may be better, but people vary. Why not eat cooked starch or cooked food? If you're sensitive to opioids, avoid wheat. Rice has very little, esp sushi rice. Potato probably doesn't have any. Many can eat starches with no problem and don't like fruit or tolerate it well.

    Don't believe rat studies talking about AGEs and HCAs. They use purified highly concentrated doses that would not even be found in normal meals. I don't get a headache or high from the trace opioids in some grains. Some folks are allergic to pollen, that doesn't mean everybody should wear a dust mask or stay inside. Do what works for you. I want to be as free and flexible as possible, not get trapped in some guru's box.

    "Depends on what you eat."

    No, it depends on what YOU eat and YOUR body, which is largely unique.

    "But overall if you deviate from the protocol you will feel less vital and energetic because you are using inferior food instead of superior nourishment."

    If YOU deviate from YOUR protocol, then maybe YOU have a problem and it's not a universal trait of humanity. Plenty get rid of acne or never have it and eating cooked meat and cooked starches has no effect on them. Many don't like fruits, esp pushing a particular fruit as some kind of panacea (bananas?). Others just feel better without fruit.

    "Also stay away no run from pasteurized dairy. It's like night and day compared to raw. It seems to do the opposite of raw dairy making you feel/look like crap instead of vibrant and powerful."

    Making YOU feel/look like crap. Lots of other people in the world do not have a problem with pasteurized whole-fat milk or half-and-half or cheese or butter. I started getting nausea and dizziness or vertigo while lying down after being on raw organic grass-fed milk, meat, eggs, salmon, and other foods for a while. On several occasions, Matt mentioned many problems while following WAPF's (Sally Fallon's) concept of "healthy" eating.

    I want to eat as many wholesome natural foods as possible without problems, not eliminate 90% of the world's foods, and watch myself develop more sensitivities and obsessive-compulsive attitudes. I'm perfectly able to avoid cooked starches and have cut them out many times. I did not think they were healthy. But I much prefer freedom and flexibility to being chained down by a rigid diet.

    Reply
  88. @ Apex

    Are you Actionhero from rawpaleoforum.com? You've found the optimal diet many times over, haven't you?

    "As for AV the testimonials on the primal diet homepage speak for themselves."

    You got to be kidding. I mean that's an awesome joke, I just hope you're not serious about that statement. Maybe your superhuman health and sex skills have gone to your head.

    Reply
  89. Apex, how would you compare your ZC sex drive to the current one?

    "I can't help but notice that my sex-drive is through the roof. Makes the ladies happy for sure. One girls told me how she is eating only fish, fruit and vegetables. I told her yeah that's cool "I eat raw meat only". Instant deer in the headlights look followed by "are you like a vampire or something?". I bite her neck and we make out. I think it turned her on or something. On ZC I feel like James Bond or the guy from the Most Interesting Man In The World commercial. But at the same time I realize that one day I will grow old and die. If only ZC gave us immortality, how cool would that be?"
    posted June 24, 2010

    Reply
  90. @Darius

    "however, remember that those HG/neolithic societies only ate the grains because they had to/would have hunted their meat sources into extinction without some form of dietary inhibition and alternate calorie sources."

    How do you know this? You're posing a theory as fact. Paleo dogma is that prehistoric man ate mostly meat, but if you read articles about what they actually found in human feces, it's a different story.

    Reply
  91. Uhhh, a diet with oysters, raw or cooked, is going to increase sex drive. It is a common aphrodisiac.

    Reply
  92. 12 RAW OYSTERS

    That guy's got to be rich. Why does RAW have to be capitalized?

    Reply
  93. Apex:

    "You don't have to school me who Wai is, I am from Amsterdam myself. The dude helped thousands of people all over the world get rid of acne without charging a penny for it. He could have made a fortune for himself. What have you done lately?"

    Many people don't know Wai. How do you know how many people he cured? Many got cavities or got rid of acne with cooked meat and starches. What about all Wai's studies that proved milk (even raw) is causing osteoporosis and other disease? You reject that, why do you believe the studies of AGEs, HCAs, and so on?

    I charge nothing. I haven't cured acne, while causing tooth decay and extreme weight loss, but I've helped some over the years. I'm trying to learn and grow healthier. I would rather have acne by far than cavities. My skin improved by avoiding PUFA oils, unripe fruits, soft drinks, fried food, and other things. I may get a pimple if I over-eat protein, under-eat calories, or miss sleep, but they go away pretty fast.

    [AV testimonials on primal diet page]

    Many of them don't follow his advice or have problems. I know one who asked for AV to remove his testimonial because he no longer believed it. AV said that "he believed it when it was given." Without names, phone numbers, e-mail addresses, you don't know what testimonials there are, who eat his diet 100%, and have no big problems. One guy had appendicitis. He blamed it on eating nuts. Anything's blamed but raw meat, eggs, dairy, lack of starch, honey, vegetable juice, etc.

    AV claims 236 of 240 cancer remissions. Where are they? Where is the record of diagnosis and remission? Has anyone but AV made this "diagnosis" of remission? If so, there should be records. People who were cured should want to share it. Jan K. makes the same claims for curing "incurable" diseases, his diet is high fat cooked meat and starch.

    "Limiting what is bad for you is a good thing. My diet is responsible for me making more money, having sex with hotter girls and looking like I always wanted to look. It has given me the energy to break through mediocrity and experience the success I currently enjoy."

    You can get healthier and what is "bad" now can be neutral or good. If everyone only ate what YOU said was good, they'd go broke or starve. Not all people care about making a lot of money, having sex 3x as much, etc. Eating canned soybeans about 11-12 years ago made my sex drive increase by at least 3 times. Maybe you will die 3 times faster, too. Viagra is not for life extension, AFAIK.

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  94. The same guy (apex aka actionhero) also wrote that his plan is to make a couple of millions, then at the age of 40 to start having babies with multiple women.

    First he advised eating lean meat & fruit most days and fatty meat some day as the ultimate diet. Then he went on a "6 month" zero-carb experiment. After 2 weeks he tried some raw honeycomb, but abandoned that to claim that zero-carb is the ultimate diet. A bit later he vanished for a year or so (?), just to return and to herold the advent of raw milk as the ultimate food.

    Take what he writes with a grain of salt… or two.

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  95. sub…

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  96. Good info on adrenal fatigue. It seems that by figuring out what symptoms you’re experiencing may be beneficial in determining if you’re suffering from this. Thank you for sharing this.

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  97. Matt been reading ur stuff for a while , big fan…alls I can say is thankyou for putting together the cognitive dissonance, or que q’s and inconsistencies I felt I couldn’t bring up amongst my dogmatic vegan or paleo or wapf friends…..sheesh…none of it worked for me except the clues ayurveda and chinese nutritional med gave me and my own friggin body.

    anyhow of interes perhaps here is that I actually dont oftenrect to muscle meat but do react to broth! I will get the typical reaction to too much muscle consumption but my body asks for it in moderation, esp to recovr adrenals. But broth, Ive made fish, chicken, turkey, pheasant, beef and holy cow! i will get hot flashes from eating it (and its not the cookware or animals or the water or the spices, all of it top quality).

    Ive realized that the same food can poison me when my body doesnt want it and then heal my body when it wants it. One day I will be fine with broth (rarely) and another will react. One day i cant stand the sight of beef and if I eat it i will get a purplish red flush to my face and on another day it will feel like I hit a pot of gold. Same with almost very other food source, eggs, raw dairy, rice…….mmrrrmmmm. frustrating or ego killing? anyway,for adrenals eating evry hour and a half has been key.

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