Conversation with East West Healing

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Tomorrow’s the big day.  As some of us are delving into this strange new world of eating MORE, not less simple sugar instead of being devout starchatarians, I thought it would be great to have a conversation with Josh and Jeanne Rubin of East West Healing and Performance.  The Rubin’s are very well-versed in the use of not just sugar, but also gelatin as a non-inflammatory source of protein added to the diet in signficant quantities (another recent tangent).

While in the past they’ve leaned towards metabolic typing and Paleo-ish diets, they have been having great success by following Ray Peat’s ideas on fats, protein, and carbohydrates with real people in the real world.  Their results have been fantastic, and I knew it was time to get them on the phone and make them spill the beans as to what exactly they are seeing and why.

So please join us tomorrow at 1pm Pacific/4pm Eastern for what should be a great, casual conversation between us, and hopefully Josh and Jeanne will open up the lines for many of you to call in and ask questions, share your concerns and personal experiences, and use Karate Kid aliases as was done during my interview with Sean Croxton.

If you are new to 180, familiarize yourself with how to RAISE YOUR METABOLISM to understand what a radical idea it is for me to consider sugar as helpful with a long list of health problems when used in the right context.

The interview with Josh and Jeanne can be found by clicking HERE
The call will be recorded so if you can’t tune in for it live you can still listen to it later.

To get a taste of what’s to come, watch Josh’s recent video on sugar.  Please do not attempt to take your head off, bite it, and put it back on.

199 Comments

  1. This vid is for the trash can, I can hear scarcely anything, do you have the same problem peopz?

    If someone is able to hear all the stuff he is saying a nice summary of the important stuff would be nice.

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  2. FINE. And I don't want to be negative but this sucks! I mean talk about a total dismantling of everything I thought made sense before! Sigh.

    $hit. So, just 1 thing at a time. Do I not need to be spooning high vitamin fermented CLO to my 4 kids any longer? Josh mentioned it as a PUFA several times.

    We eat, and enjoy, tons of bone broths and raw grass fed milk, butter and cream. Lots of probiotics like yogurt, kefir and kombucha; coconut oil on and in everything… Very liberal with fruit (though no juice at all except for juicer).
    Is the CLO/BO blend doing us harm or good?? Too darn disgusting to keep taking it if its not as killer for vit A as I thought.

    And sugar, again, FINE. I can conceive of it – it does make sense, but it sounds like everything else has to change to start incorporating it in a beneficial way!

    I am confused… when I was so totally in a groove feeding the family before.

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  3. Must qualify. I know – an anxiety ridden post. Exactly what I'm supposed to be moving away from when it comes to food and "diets".
    But, I'm feeding my kids! I can't afford to casually throw up a peace sign and say "cool, dude… we'll figure it out"

    Like a vegan's eyes being opened for the first time… this feels pretty shocking. The victory of seeing a year of progress moving away from a SAD diet (not just me but a fam of 6!) this is a somber moment when I'm not sure what is going to be discovered next.
    Sigh after sigh. I'm not reintroducing juice and sugar to my (finally) satisfied kids until I can understand all this.

    Problem is, have you tried caring for four little ones, making everything, for every meal from scratch AND sitting down to read Ray Peat for 1/2 hour??

    I'm not blindly following "my guru"… I just need it sorted out!

    Lots and lots of heavy sighs.

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  4. I am interested about the FCLO too and in the Uk it's very expensive. For pregnancy, WAPF recommend 2 teaspoons, to yield around 20,000 vit A.

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  5. The sound is fine. The video plays fine on my end.

    Many of us went through a big change to accept saturated fats back into our lives or eat the WAPF way. That was radical.

    Matt's RRARF was a totally radical idea that many of us tried and felt better doing so.

    So Josh Rubin (and I'm guessing Ray Peat himself) are saying we need some sugar to keep our systems working well and suddenly that's TOO radical?

    I don't think Josh is telling us to have a Coke and a smile every time we're thirsty. He gives some very compelling reasons why we need some of the white stuff in our diets.

    I'll be listening with interest.

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  6. This is going to be great! The Rubins really know their stuff and they aren't afraid to stray away from the crowd, I'm beginning to think they actually favor it!

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  7. This is sort of like when the Soviet Union collapsed and all the Cold War Hawks went a bit mental because there was no great evil empire to demonize anymore. Don't worry. There will be a food terrorism soon.

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  8. Weston A. Price
    T. L. Cleave
    Robert McCarrison

    They be rollin'. In their graves.

    And if anyone is going to rip off their own head, bite it, and put it back on after watching this video – it's Robert Lustig.

    This bandwagon is gonna' have to roll on for a little bit without me. Because yes (Lisa), it's too radical. It goes against all of the foundational books and knowledge I have built my knowledge on. That doesn't mean it's wrong, but extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I'm going to need to hear a lot more about the Rubin's results with their clients, and see more research (more than just a Peat reference) before I'm going to reexamine T. L. Cleave.

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  9. Also, if a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down….what if the medicine IS the sugar. I just blew my own mind there.

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  10. Jennythenipper,

    It would be more like if the USSR did NOT collapse, but in fact whipped out their high living standards and boundless prosperity, and they were all like "See! Socialism works! Hayek and Friedman got it all wrong!".

    This isn't the loss of an "enemy". It's an attack on a foundational assumption about how nutrition-world works.

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  11. Nickie welcome to the rabbit hole.

    "I'm not reintroducing juice and sugar to my (finally) satisfied kids until I can understand all this." When you "understand all this" then please, please, please let the rest of us know.

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  12. Brock if the USDA is recommending incorporating fruit juice and fruit in the diet I would not put it into the "extraordinary claims" categories.

    Eating as much sugar — in the form of fruit/high mineral sources — as Stone is eating maybe in the "extraordinary" category. But Stone does everything in that realm.

    Is it going to work for everyone — not likely. Will it be wonderful medicine for some — absolutely.

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  13. Nickie and everyone,

    Remember what Matt wrote about on Eating Order:

    "Major dietary restrictions should be a last resort, not a casual first line of defense. "

    "Even as a health researcher dedicated to learning as much about the food-health relationship as possible in my lifetime, I too have to put in a conscious effort not to take it to the table with me, or let a new whimsical idea that popped into my head radically influence my dietary decisions. This brings us to the next rule…

    Do not “pinball” your diet (Scott Abel’s catch term).

    This means bounce around from vegan to Paleo to a cleanse to dairy-free to low-fat to macrobiotic to Atkins (hardcore orthorexics often have the temptation to do all of the above at some point in any given month). Same goes for your sleep habits, exercise habits, and so forth. Once again, to take advantage of Abel’s great knowledge, “the body loves regularity.” It is probably much healthier to eat a #1 at McDonald’s for every meal than to swing back and forth between all these crazy forms of dietary extremism. Consistency and regularity with your eating patterns MOST of the time is a major health asset.

    Since I can see 200 of you thinking busily about the exact meal that you are going to eat every single time you sit down to eat for the rest of your life, and getting out your stopwatch to time the hours, minutes, and seconds in between each feeding…
    ————

    Just because sugar's all the rage around here these days doesn't mean everyone needs to jump on the train and go to sweet-town.

    And avoiding PUFAs from even natural sources like pigs and chickens and nuts, not eating muscle meat very much, etc.- those are what most would call major dietary restrictions, so don't all be quick to throw down.

    This is more dis-ordered eating. As Matt also said, just because you lose weight or feel better after a few days or weeks doing something (more sugar, zero PUFA, more broth, gelatin supplements, etc.), doesn't mean it's THE solution.

    Just saying y'all- have fun with your life, experiment to the extent that you feel empowered to, but don't go chasing that elusive perfect diet that's gonna fix it all, and then switch it up altogether next week or month just because our main man here is going down a different tangent. If there's anything I can glean from all this researching, it's that whatever the new rage is, it's almost undeoubtedkly not the final word, and NOT worth stressing yourself out over trying to follow.

    Just my two cents.

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  14. Mmm! Imma go get me a chocolate shake today!

    That explains a lot about my sister and I. She is sugar-powered, and has never eschewed it in her diet as I have in mine.

    Thanks for challenging my beliefs!

    I'm about halfway through Bacon's _Health at Every Size_ and am loving it, though I'm not totally cool with some of her dietary comments ("artery-clogging saturated fat" UGH!).

    My temps have been over 98.3 every day since I ovulated this month. I am not sure if I should continue taking the thyroid/adrenal glandulars I started or not.

    Had gluten yesterday, and am *not* bloated today (despite being in the last half of my cycle), and my daughter is not puking her guts out (that's what it does to her).

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  15. "t would be more like if the USSR did NOT collapse, but in fact whipped out their high living standards and boundless prosperity, and they were all like "See! Socialism works! Hayek and Friedman got it all wrong!"."

    Yes. You are right, Brock. Much better analogy. I should stick to automotive analogies, shouldn't I?

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  16. Veiled Glory:

    Thanks for that link. Peat's stuff can be a little mind-numbing to connect all the dots. I've found it's helped to go through his site with the search engine, researching one topic, hormone, etc at a time. Slow, but I've found it more effective to assimilate the information.

    Brock:

    Totally agree dude. Sugar is so far out in left field for me it's gonna take a lot to bring me around.

    Matt:

    If you read this, please grill the shit out of Josh on this topic for us! Like Brock said we need some extraordinary evidence to make this all click.

    Gotta say, I love Josh's enthusiasm though. Kinda sounds like a kid that ate too much sugar haha. Yeah, I said it — don't tell me you weren't thinking about it.

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  17. This reminds me that at work this week, someone turned in a bag of groceries that someone left in one of the classrooms. Two really big packages of generic sweetened cereal and a huge bag of sugar. We were laughing that somewhere out there was a really bummed sugar addict, roaming the halls looking for his fix. Maybe he was one of Josh's clients!

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  18. My question is, what kind of stuff is he putting sugar on? He's saying to not eat starches, so is he sprinkling sugar on his meat, soup, milk, and vegetables? Fruit and fruit juices don't need more sugar! Just trying to wrap my brain around what he eats.

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  19. Rob A.
    Okay, you've talked me down, thank you & I know to a certain extent.

    Perhaps I am mistaking the shocking magnitude of this news as a measure of how huge a dietary missing link it must be.

    I mean, that is somewhat how Rubin presents it and remember this is our introduction to the concept… the very catalyst by which we all begin to search for the substantiation.

    And someone, Matt?, FCLO or not FCLO? Please don't poo poo it as "no big deal". Can I have a brief moment when all the very many sources that tout it as wonder sup aren't dismissed in one giant – "PuhLEEZ CLO is just a gimmick"

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  20. You've got to get your vitamin D somewhere, right? And it need to be balanced with vitamin A. I don't know of another simple, non-synthetic way to ensure both are balanced. ??

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  21. I just had two liverwurst sandwiches with homeade 'kefir cream' (GREAT condiment) and shredded cheese, on sodium-free sprouted wheat (toasted).

    And a pickle and a beer.

    It was AMAZING. Had some gummy worms and some vanilla fudge candies from Poland called "Krowka" just now afterwards.

    I don't think this throws anything out the window. I'm going to keep eating potatoes and whole wheat and drinking kefir and eating viili.

    In my mind, it just means that eating sugary things as I crave them is OK. :) Jell-o made with plain gelatin and fruit juice is awesome.

    I still think the biggest problem for me has been not eating enough. I think RRARF is really onto something and this whole sugar thing seems to be completely in line with it. More of a minor tweak to me rather than a radical adjustment — of course, you CAN try a radical adjustment to see if it works for you, but what I mean is, I see it as one less thing to be obsessive about.

    I think all the other things I've learned too — fermentation, sprouted grains, not restricting any macronutrient — it all applies just as much as ever, and hasn't become 'arcane' or 'old news.'

    The new builds on the old. It's all about synergy: fusing what you knew then with what you know now. Nothing goes to waste.

    Bring on the cake, bitches!

    (I might be only half kidding about that last part ;))

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  22. sugar is easy to understand for me. i do fine eating loads of starch. but sugar, any kind, gives me an energy that starch doesn't. i feel energised and relaxed. i eat it when i feel like it, usually the first half of the day, then starch the rest of the day. sometimes sugar all day, sometimes starch. i say do i feel like an orange or a potato.

    i think if you have no problems with sugar, probably not a lot of people on here, then you can easily experiment to see if sugar benefits you. fruit is of course the best sugar but cocacola is nice too haha.

    anyway i think ultimately sugar is energy, and that is what most people lack. i'm sure everyone here knows people who eat so called shit diets but are healthy, vibrant and full of energy. vitamins and minerals are all well and good but energy is what you need and if some sugar gives it then don't be afraid of it.

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  23. Forgive me but what are PUFA's?

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  24. Polyunsaturated fat

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  25. Nathan said…
    Is it going to work for everyone — not likely. Will it be wonderful medicine for some — absolutely.

    That's not good enough. Unless we know WHY it works it's voo-doo. I don't do voo-doo. If someone is claiming that sugar is good I want to know precisely (1) how it's good, and (2) how you explain the observations of everyone who says it's bad.

    And given the weight of evidence on the anti-sugar camp, the evidence needs to be powerful. Really powerful.

    Remember folks, being open minded and being willing to question old beliefs is good. Being so open minded you brain falls out is bad. Hold firmly to what you know with a high degree of certainty and examine new information for contradictions. Always.

    Just so someone doesn't quote some recent comments against me, I distinguish between the occasional piece of whole fruit or fresh squeezed juice from the table sugar/refined sugar stuff. Sort of like how I distinguish between enriched white flour sitting on the local Supermarket shelf and fresh milled, whole wheat flour I just ground out in my kitchen. No one with a lick of sense is against fresh, whole fruit.

    The problems I see with table sugar-
    1. Complete lack of nutrition (vitamins, minerals).
    2. Not paired with fiber.
    3. Very easy to overdose on. No one would "accidently" eat 10 oranges, but 20 teaspoons hidden in some cake, soda, ice cream or the like would go down without anyone the wiser (while lacking in the nutrition and fiber, per above).

    Adding table sugar to a diet seems like playing with fire, or a loaded gun. Getting rid of it was one of Weston Price's primary concerns and great successes. I'm not even sure anyone, practically speaking, has the willpower to handle it responsibly. My willpower and resistance to temptation is quite strong, but even I know that if I started saying "just one teaspoon won't hurt", pretty soon it would be two, and so on.

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  26. Crap, crap, crap!

    I wrote an ultra elaborate post about all this sugar business (believe it or not) and then there was some stupid blogger error. Now I'm frickin' pissed.

    Ctrl + C, people, Ctrl + C.

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  27. The video played fine on my end, too. But Josh is really hard to follow…
    Plus, I've just had this weird impression that acutally Matt and Josh (and possibly a host of other people) are one and the same person. And that person loves impersonating different…well ah… persona and confusing poor people like me who get only half of it anyway.

    So sugar is okay now? Well, if there is one thing that I have come around to then it's trying doesn't hurt (at least most of the time). So I picked up a glass of black molasses at a health food store. Here is what happens to me when I make myself a molasses drink (just hot water with black molasses stirred in): I get warm, really warm. Sometimes, I am flushed all over. That's it though. I think I have even gained a little weight – again.

    So far I seem to have found lots of ways to actually get bigger. I don't mind it that much any longer (that's what Bacon was good for). I do mind the shitloads of money I have to spend on new clothes though. If I could fastforward the last 6 months, it would be like the transformation of the incredible Hulk. Seams bursting, fabric stretching. Unfortunately, it is not muscle that's making me run to the mall to get XL clothing (I was M this time last year).

    I can see little improvements in the health of my skin though. My lips are still dry as parch but the eczema seems to have improved. And my sleeping seems to have become a bit more sound if only for a tidbit though.
    Stiwa

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  28. Oh and one more thing: Believe it or not but since I have given myself liberty to eat regular sweets on occasion I find that I don't really crave them at all. I can easily pass on some cake or choclate. I think about what it will taste like and suddenly I don't find it that interesting. Buckwheat porridge with milk and blueberries and a bit of cinnamon though I could eat by the barrel.
    Stiwa

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  29. "No one with a lick of sense is against fresh, whole fruit."

    Um, that was Matt, not that long ago. My own experience was that eliminating all fructose helped with inflammation issues, at least in the short term. I also did about four weeks of Peat style eating once, going heavy on the fresh squeezed OJ and ice cream while eating gelatin and broth and cheese as much as possible. I put on belly fat and had no temp gains. I went back to my 180 spoonbread in a hurry.

    I'm pretty skeptical about this whole thing, but I'm waiting to see how it's laid out and seeing if perhaps it could help me deal with some lingering issues like bruising that seems to be adrenal related.

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  30. Barring any nuclear holocaust, earthquake with impending tsunami, or hungry baby, I will be attending.

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  31. I think we have to keep in mind that some of us are nutrition focused (obsessed maybe?) for different reasons. Many of us came to the nutrition world because the mainstream medical world failed us, dismissed us or prescribed a symptom reliever that didn't address the underlying issues we had.

    Josh Rubin seems to be adamant about an individualized approach. He also talks about the "context" of eating things like sugar or drinking caffeine. I don't think he's advocating for Slushies and Big Gulps three times a day.

    People like me who have serious health issues might need to restrict or increase certain foods in order to gain balance.

    People who are already in balance might not need to be as concerned about macronutrient ratios etc. and focusing on ratios and portions seems silly and unnecessary or orthorexic.

    By the by I am a new client of the Rubins. We'll see how much I'm able/willing to share. I'm sure it will be a long term project to get me well (weller?).

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  32. Glad you're back Jenny. The infection and antibiotics over xmas had me seriously out of recovery mode, so I can't imagine x3. Put on another 20lbs after being stable for months, and all I wanted to do was sleep sleep sleep (but couldn't). I'm not depressed, just worn out. Completely. Like the idea of raising my arms above my head had me laying down for a nap.

    At now 50lbs over the 120 I started at, I feel icky. Oh sure, I heal easier and all I want to do is jump my husband, but the adrenal blah has got to stop. So I started isocort again, with the result that as soon as I took it, I had a nap. Then I started taking the magnesium calm stuff again and that made a difference. I can almost imagine moving around now, and even exercised a bit this week. I'm beginning to think JT was right, sometimes you have to force yourself to move. Still, I too hope to get more insight from Matt's interview. I'm not willing to eat a lot of sugar. I find when I start down that road, I just want more. Maybe this will change my mind.

    And despite me trying to keep hubby occupied, I think he's starting to freak out about the weight. The other night he asked me to describe my current plan to get healthy. "Well, eat real food. And sleep".

    "That's it? What are you restricting?"

    "Oh, not much sugar still, or wheat. Nothing processed. You know, just real food. And try to get some sleep. Start exercising a little".

    Incredulous now… "That's your plan?"

    Me defensive "Um yeah".

    Derisively "That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard of. No wonder you keep gaining weight. You need to start jogging five miles every day".

    Me crying… Sigh… needing some love.

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  33. If the fruit sugar thing dismantles some notions, or opens up wider eating possibilities, lovely.
    I suspect it can also become another dietary obsession – the search continues with increased vigour – removing one type of food (or lauding one) and replacing it with another. A new set of dietary rules. Til the next thing.

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  34. This is getting very interesting. Sadly, the video wasn't very informative, and Josh barely gave reasons why sugar may be superior to starch. More importantly, I believe, is there any reason to consume the white stuff? Why, if you can just eat fruits or even molasses. The only reason I can think of is if you have some sort of salicylate sensivity, but based on Peat's e-mails he doesn't know-believe in that condition.

    Mmm, yeah, better bring a shitload of evidence. Fun times.

    And about the cod liver oil thing, if it tastes so bad, why not just eat liver and some fish? It may well be rancid. I mean, they even call it "fermented cod liver oil" so…

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  35. Maybe the idea that sugar could be good for you is not so crazy.

    One of the things that attracted me initially to WAPF and then to RRARF was the whole "listen to your body" aspect.

    If you're hungry, maybe that means you should eat.

    If we have a taste for something, maybe there's a reason why.

    Fat and salt are two of the big ones – they make our food taste better, but mainstream nutrionism tells us to fight those cravings.

    Ever tried mashed potatoes without any butter, milk or salt? Blah. Egg whites only? Pass. Skim milk? Yuck.

    If you've been falling down this nutritional rabbit hole for a a while now and have seen the truth behind the mainstream lies about fat, salt, carbs and others, then maybe it's not such a stretch to consider sugar.

    Obviously our bodies have a taste for sweets too – a strong one – and maybe there's a reason for it.

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  36. Well it may not be rancid, I really don't know, yet this is what Price had to say about it:

    "It is important that I emphasize here some dangers that are not usually recognized or properly emphasized in the literature. When fish oils including cod liver oils are given in too large doses to some patients they experience quite definite symptoms of depression. The available evidence indicates that fish oils that have been exposed to the air may develop toxic substances. My work and that of others with experimental animals has demonstrated that paralysis can be produced readily by over-dosing. Serious structural damage can be done to hearts and kidneys. I have reported this in considerable detail. (4) My investigations have shown that when a high vitamin natural cod liver oil is used in conjunction with a high vitamin butter oil the mixture is much more efficient than either alone.4 This makes it possible to use very small doses. Except in the late stages of pregnancy I do not prescribe more than half a teaspoonful with each of three meals a day. This procedure appears to obviate completely the undesirable effects. As stated elsewhere fish oils should be stored in small containers to avoid exposure to the air. Rancid fats and oils destroy vitamins A and E, (5) the former in the stomach. (6)"

    BTW, I believe the argument for gelatin-broths is pretty solid, and in tone whith what healthy cultures may have been doing, like the kitavans eating the whole fish, etc. However, since there is no record I know of of a healthy culture living on high quantities of sugar (natural sugar of course) I believe it is better to be a bit more wary of sugar being touted as a panacea.

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  37. Not that such thing means sugar is bad. That is a whole other history.

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  38. This is definitely a mind-bending twist in the rabbit hole… I'm looking forward to catching the talk–glad that it'll be archived so can catch as catch can.

    Lorelei–ouch. Sending you kind thoughts.

    Great points from Rob A. about avoiding diet dogma.

    Some great friends of mine with whom I used to live in HI and who are somewhat WAPF-oriented swear by the broths. They have two small kids and the dad told me recently that whenever things are out of whack, people's emotions are acting up, etc, he makes up a big batch of bone broth and peace returns to the family.

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  39. A more eloquent summary of my last comment:

    "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect."
    - Mark Twain

    If you spend time at this blog then you're probably willing to believe that the mainstream could be flowing in the wrong direction.

    I'm not saying that Ray Peat is right, but I am saying that just because his advice is unorthodox doesn't mean it's wrong.

    Here's a place to start for Peat's view on sugar:
    http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/glycemia.shtml

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  40. I think this is great. Anytime you're forced to question your beliefs, it's a good thing. I still cannot believe white sugar is a good thing. From what Dr. Price saw I don't think refined anything is a great idea (though I'm torn on white rice). But unrefined sugar or fruit, I definitely think it's healthy. I never thought it was bad. I suspect PUFAs+sugar are a problem. HFCS is probably bad, too. Maybe even high fat of any sort + sugar could be fattening, not sure. This is really, really interesting stuff.
    -Amy

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  41. Just to add to that, if I can believe white rice is okay, maybe white sugar is, too, if the rest of your diet is good. SO interesting.
    -Amy

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  42. Matt, here's a question for you: why were the Egyptians in such poor health? I know Dr. Eades says it's carbs, which I don't buy, of course, given all the healthy carb-loving cultures. But, I still don't get it. They ate bread, honey, olive oil, some meat. Why such poor health? Any thoughts?

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  43. d

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  44. I may be wrong but I think when the Peatster says sugar he is referring mostly to tropical fruits and OJ.
    but I do love me some chocolate, with sugar yes.
    xo
    deb

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  45. Lorelei,
    Right there with you honey. I have hope though and I seem to be right where you're at. Why does the weight set point continue to rise!? Erg… better check back with 180 Metabolism for some answers… oh wait, its about to be revised! I think the sun will help immensely for my adrenals… and also make me/us feel like moving a bit. I can't wait to start some Tabata and savor oxygen deprivation. :|

    EL66K,
    It's not rancid and its appeared to get all 6 of us through a bitter winter without even sniffles. Well, the bone broth boasts that as well. There's no shortage of either around here. We definitely pair the FCLO with the butter oil too. Tastes darn foul but 1/2 tsp a day is tolerable for the A & D.
    A 1/2 tsp (1 tsp at most) cannot possibly be what Josh Rubin meant by the PUFAs that make sugar evil, could it?

    I'm clinging to my coconut oil, butter and lard, for all my cooking and the kids are elated to have "chocolate milk back" (BlackstrapMolasses).

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  46. Correction …4pm eastern/1pm pacific.

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  47. I think I am going to check out more of his movies

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  48. Nickie, I'm right there with you. Though I agree with a number of comments that recommending whole fruit, fresh juice and molasses isn't out-of-control, it's just a big departure from Matt's previous stance and his initial RRARF approach. But it would be so much easier to do RRARF with tons of fruit than tons of potatoes.

    As an aside, I've bought FCLO and High Vitamin Butter Oil twice now and both times have found them so gross and seemingly rancid that I couldn't use them. I called the company to see if there was something wrong with the FCLO and they told me the batches vary and some are very strong in their fishy flavor and that it should last indefinitely in the fridge. I don't believe that for a minute, unless they are so oxidized in the first place that storage time makes no difference! The HVBO just smells and tastes like rancid butter. I take Nordic CLO, though I know the WAPF doesn't recommend that brand, but I'm thinking of stopping or maybe switching to krill oil.

    Rob A. thanks for the words. Helps.

    Matt, can't wait to hear this thing tomorrow!

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  49. Personally, I think there's probably some case to be made for giving children CLO. It has a pretty long history. Not so sure about adults taking it (except pregnant women who may benefit). At least for me, it made my hair fall out (that stopped as soon as I stopped taking it). When I was taking it, I finally realized the cinnamon flavor was the best kind. I think the antioxidants protect against rancidity, and the taste and smell were a lot better. I mixed it into a little milk which actually was very tasty. But the plain stuff smelled and tasted rancid to me, too.
    -Amy

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  50. grass fed momma,

    'Peatster' does talk a lot about fruit and OJ, but I really wonder whether OJ is all that different from sugar water – at least in terms of its effects on metabolism, blood sugar, insulin, etc.

    The fructose/glucose ratio of bananas, grapes, peaches, oranges & pineapples is basically 1:1 so if it's real fruit juice, then the sugar composition is basically the same as sucrose (table/refined sugar).

    Whole fruit is definitely a different story because of the fiber, nutrients, etc. but I don't know about OJ. There's no fiber, right? The supposed "antidote" to fructose "poison" according to Lustig.

    And I think I remember that Sally Fallon didn't think much of fruit juice – just that it was a concentrated sugar drink and worse because it has more fructose – which is apparently only true for some fruits like apples which is 2:1 fructose:glucose.

    Source:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fructose#Food_sources
    Plus that page's source for oranges:
    http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/

    Reply
  51. Danny Roddy just posted an article about Ray Peat and sugar and references an interview with Dr. Datis Kharrazian where he discusses the following technique to treat patients with insulin resistance – basically a lemonade fast:

    For 3 to 5 days, take sips of this drink every 10 to 15 minutes: water + maple syrup + lemon/lime juice and "some green tea". And that's it.

    The Dr. claims that as long as you don't wait to long between drinks your body will not go into a fasting state and he says that if you have hunger cravings then drink more.

    In the interview he says it works because:

    • It gets patients off of their inflammatory foods and allows the gut to heal.

    • The steady source of sugar keeps blood sugar steady and does not spike insulin levels. Kharrazian says more than carbs/sugar it's " the immune reaction that has been shown to spike insulin levels."

    • People with insulin resistance "can't get glucose into cells" or make glucuronic acid – "a substrate in the liver needed to clear hormones." The fast corrects these problems and therefore allows clearing of accumulated hormones that perpetuate insulin resistance.

    http://www.dannyroddy.com/main/2011/3/21/the-root-of-all-evil-sugar-or-estrogen.html
    http://www.thelivinlowcarbshow.com/shownotes/2167/dr-datis-kharrazian-episode/

    Reply
  52. I wish I could understand Ray Peat so I could form an opinion about his arguments. The biochemistry is just way over my head. I suspect that he's a bit of a kook but his understanding of biochemistry is so much greater than my own (which is next to nil really) that I just don't have any way to know for sure. I wish we could get a real biochemist to analyze his website and give us a report. What do you think Matt? Who wants to start asking biochemistry PhDs to evaluate Ray Peat's arguments. Maybe get an endocrinology PhD to read some of his stuff also.

    Reply
  53. Taylor,

    I don't really understand a lot of Ray Peat's technical-speak either. Peat cites many scientific studies, but how are we to know that they are accurate? Dr. Shwarzbein is an endocrinologist and she would say that many of his theories are hogwash. But how will she prove him wrong – other scientific studies? How do we know they are accurate?

    It would be nice if science was truly objective, empirical and rational and could give us all the answers we want. But science is never perfectly objective because humans are never perfectly objective. That's why we have smart people using logical research methods who end up with opposite conclusions in many different fields of study.

    So many different things can be factors in the bias of "objective" research: greed, corruption, ego, confirmation bias, sampling bias, human error, etc.

    That's why, for better or worse, I read this stuff and then just see what fits into my own internal guidance system.

    Take raw milk for example. What we would call today "local, organic, grass-fed, full fat, non-homogenized, unpasteurized milk" was known 100 years ago by the term: milk. That's the only milk there was! Some "experts" today say to ignore thousands of years of human history and drink the new and improved modern milk instead. Does that make sense?

    That's why I was so drawn to WAPF. The philosophy is intuitive: eat traditional foods and prepare with traditional methods.

    Tradition and intuition are certainly just as valuable for making decisions as modern research. So I say, science isn't everything; read the research, but also think for yourself, trust your intuition and trust your body.

    Reply
  54. "Anonymous said…
    Matt, here's a question for you: why were the Egyptians in such poor health? I know Dr. Eades says it's carbs, which I don't buy, of course, given all the healthy carb-loving cultures. But, I still don't get it. They ate bread, honey, olive oil, some meat. Why such poor health? Any thoughts?"

    i remember someone on here a long time ago saying that they made oil from sunflower or something like it

    Reply
  55. Like what you said sirhc.

    Still certain I'm in the right place, especially given everyone's comments.

    I wish I could hear each person's experience here in detail and the stage they're in. Maybe that could serve to group those of us whose bodies do seem to operate the same and we can exchange ideas.

    Matt, ever consider including a "testimonials" page? I'm putting together a fragmented picture of certain consistent members, by their comments, but there's so much coming through that its hard to connect with each other. And since you have to make a living – nominal charge for membership?

    Is a "Rrarf Success Stories" page too cliche & 'weight watchers-esque?
    (Whatever became of the Hot Chicks Club?)
    Looking forward to 4pm.
    Nickie

    Reply
  56. We don't have a dietary devil anymore? Oh yes, we do. Now it's PUFAs, and only PUFAs… Josh suggests to avoid starches and above-ground vegetables becaues they have too much PUFAs? That's going way overboard. Cabbage has like what, 3% fat, polished rice has 1%, wheat flour 2%, mung beans 3%… I don't think the minimal PUFAs in them will harm me.

    Reply
  57. LISA SARGESE-

    Exciting that you are working with the Rubins. I will definitely be all ears if you decide to let us be a fly on the wall!
    Can I ask what issues you are battling?

    Reply
  58. NICKIE-

    I have been thinking the same thing regarding testimonials. I was actually thinking about corresponding with people who still haven't fully recovered on RRARF and then maybe try to connect the dots.

    Reply
  59. The problem with testimonials is that it's a biased subset. It's like those commercials where some guy has picked the last 10 monday night football winners, so call him up and pay him and he'll give you the winner. But in reality, if you start with 1000 pickers, one of them through sheer luck/probability is going to get them all right. Doesn't mean he's an expert.

    What's better is to have consistent progress reports, through good and bad results. It's still the case that people who are doing poorly are less likely to report, though. And as the number of reports goes up, it gets easier and easier to find things in the data that are superfluous, but yet appear significant.

    That reminds me. I'm overdue for a progress report. I'll try to post something tonight.

    Reply
  60. @sirhc

    re Dr. Kharrazian

    What about sleeping? You can't sip your soda while you're sleeping. Also I'd be afraid about my teeth, giving them a sugar coating every 10-15min seems like the optimal working conditions for bacteria.

    Otherwise, reminds me of the master cleanse.

    Reply
  61. Hey Sheila, I'm battling Type 2 Diabetes, anemia, weight gain, recovery from weight loss surgery, fatigue, adrenal fatigue, depression and arthritis.

    I'm usually told to "just exercise and all your problems will go away" or the old classic "well if you'd just lose weight…"

    Please feel free to contact me privately BelovedIdeas@yahoo.com
    and check our my daily (yes daily) blog where I yammer on endlessly about food, weight, body image etc. TheSkinnyOnline.blogspot.com

    and thanks for asking! :-)

    Reply
  62. [quote] "Hold firmly to what you know with a high degree of certainty and examine new information for contradictions. Always." [end quote]

    Hmm, I say…

    Hold 'loosely' to what you (think) you know with 'some' degree of certainty and (actively) examine 'IT' for contradictions with new information. Always.

    And better yet, instead of just sitting in judgment and skepticism of new info and holding steadfast to old – actually experiment with the new, personally for yourself, first – TRY IT! Then go from there.

    Regarding sugar containing no vits/mins – sugar's job is not to nourish the body, its job is to provide energy (quickly and easily). While other foods/nutrients (with all their various vit/min/nutrient contents) do their respective jobs of nourishing the body – rather than the body being forced to break them down and convert (extra work) them to use for energy – as a substitute in the absence of sugar.

    Regarding willpower/temptation of eating sugar – that should tell you something. Why are you so tempted by sugar/sweets? Your body is lacking enough sugar and is begging for it. And if you give it enough of what it needs (lacks), it will not OVERDOSE or eat too much of ANYTHING. You don't have to fight it or use willpower – trust your body.

    I don't believe that anything (in its whole and natural form) provided by nature, to taste good to humans, is only there to tease us. We like eating foods because they taste good. It tastes good because we are supposed to eat it – in the ways nature intended and the forms in which nature provided.

    I'll for sure be listening in today. I like that Matt is charting into un-chartered (and even contradictory to past) territory and taking us along for the ride.

    But that's just me :)

    Also, I echo what Hans said. I still can't agree with demonizing ALL PUFA. If there happens to be some naturally occurring unsaturated fat in a whole and natural food, I'm not gonna be scurrred to eat it!

    But, again, that's just me (oh, and Hans :)

    Reply
  63. I don't know about anyone else but I can't wait for this call! Josh 'sugar raised my body temperature in an hour' Rubin might get his leg swept (or sweeped? Haha) by me in just a little while.

    I imagine the high priest is meditating right now getting ready to crane kick sugar boy.

    Reply
  64. Am i missing something or is Josh just advocating a well-rounded healthy diet that includes fructose-filled fruits, veg, whole grains, healthy fats, lean grass-fed meat, plentiful protein, and low-fat dairy?

    With I might add bouts of strength training and intervals/cardiovascular work and tai chi/yoga/doing nothing to destress, coupled with well-deserved appropriate sugary carbs and protein post work-out?
    Plus the odd sugary sweet on occasion be it ice cream or cookies or donuts depending on your particular preference which of course is okay if you generally eat well and exercise?
    And lots and lots of water?

    Reply
  65. Ah… no Anne, you're wrong.

    Reply
  66. The obsession with eating "lean grass-fed meats" and separate "healthy fats" is completely bizarre to me, especially since it seems like people rarely agree on what those healthy fats are. Also, I, and a heckuva lot of the population, can't afford grass-fed meat. Whatevs.

    Also, Dr. Kharrazian's magic sugar potion sounds a lot like the Shangri La Diet.

    I'm siding a bit with justme now regarding sugar. Once I removed the "forbidden" status from it, it became a lot less tempting, and me a lot less likely to 'overdo' it. I feel like I'm a lot more able to listen to (and obey) my own body's cues now about what it wants, whether or not it's a banana, a burger, a scoop of ice cream or a plate of veggies, instead of just having the "NOT ALLOWED = MUST HAVE" mental response to desserts that I used to have in the past (and pretty much grew up with).

    Reply
  67. I agree. Most of what you said is not what he said.

    Did he say LOW-FAT dairy??? I thought I heard him say just the opposite, that full fat raw dairy is best… among other things.

    ~ A Different Anon

    Reply
  68. I don't want to sound like a superficial retard, but I have to say that I'd take Josh way more seriously if I saw some definition in his face or maybe some abs…don't get me wrong, but I have trouble listening to sugar glorification speech from a chubby, pasty looking dude.

    It's kinda like listening to all those emaciated raw vegans about how their diet supplies more than enough protein.

    I don't take Paul Checks words as gospel, but I feel that he is right when he says that you should be able to look good while teaching about health.

    Now, after bashing poor Mr. Rubin about his looks I can say that this actually makes a lot of sense especially since I have benefited from introducing raw honey and fruits back into my diet…

    I still believe that the quality is the key and that white sugar cannot provide the same health impact as demerara or molasses. Also we all have a sweet tooth oat times, and maybe it's just about obeying it in the context of an overall healthy diet.

    Reply
  69. My previous comment was to the other Anon, not Sarah (you snuck yours in before mine), just FYI.

    ~ A Different Anon

    Reply
  70. the thing with the arabic countries is that they've always been pretty on nuts and mostly use vegetable oils. in the best case they use olive oil.

    Reply
  71. OOOPS! What I meant was, my previous comment was in response to what the other Anon said to Anne Etra. In other words, I agree that Anne got a lot of it wrong… what Josh said in the video. And I really don't think he said anything about LOW-fat dairy.

    ~ A Different Anon

    Reply
  72. @ sirhc:
    Yeah, I don't do much juice these days, maybe one pint over a week of fresh tangerine juice. I like whole fruit. Apparently, it also likes me quite a bit :)
    Johhny Freakin' Lawrence:
    May I nominate you as Commenter of the day with this gem:
    'I imagine the high priest is meditating right now getting ready to crane kick sugar boy.'
    Epic.
    peace out
    deb xo

    Reply
  73. for the many many anonymous commenters:
    Pick a Handle and use it so we stop getting so confused-ed by the comments that seem to come from one, no two, no three of you guys wha???
    I can make up a good name for you if you like. Or just pick one of Matty's icon idols and use theirs, copyright be damned.
    sorry, had to make an attempt to clear my own confusion about who is saying what and who's on first etc.
    deb

    Reply
  74. He made quite an interesting comment during the video:

    Suggesting that "fructose inhibits the stimulation of insulin by glucose".

    Now, I am aware of the lack of insulin response of fructose, and how it can increase insulin resistance, but neither of those two effects say anything about reducing the production of insulin in response to glucose present.

    I would like to see some research indicating this proposed mechanism mentioned in the video.

    I found Ray Peat's page where this idea is initially propagated (http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/glycemia.shtml), and through out the pages of references – there is only one relevant research study listed which has anything to do with this claim.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11134101
    Acute fructose administration decreases the glycemic response to an oral glucose tolerance test in normal adults.

    So, this one study that this guy is basing this claim on is utilizing oral glucose tolerance tests, which are already a sketchy kind of way to determine healthy blood sugar levels.

    I'd like to see some more interesting research on this concept.

    Reply
  75. LOL! @ Deb

    Sorry, Deb, but (since there was already 1 or 2 or 3 anons) that's why I signed my comments as a different anon, so as not to confuse you, um, I mean anyone ;)

    ~ A different Anon

    Reply
  76. Ok, Different Anon, but I bet you have a really cool name you could pull out of your hat too :)

    Reply
  77. ok maybe he didn't mention low-fat dairy and i am projecting my love of low-fat dairy (although the whole-milk raw thing is on my list to research) but I stick to my guns about a well-rounded healthy nutritional intake combining with exercise – and that you need to consider both together.

    Reply
  78. Okay, so reading a little more about Ray Peat's recommendations, I'm beginning to think the most important thing to avoid is ADDITIVES. It goes back to Fiengold again. I thought one of Peat's answers about problems with dairy being the additives not the dairy itself was interesting. Avoid carrageenan, locust bean, guar, gums, dyes, all those chemicals and preservatives.

    I think I'm just going to go back to only worrying about avoiding additives and the other obvious HFCS, hydrogenated and veg. oils. No bromated or bleached flours, etc. Everything else just eat naturally!

    Reply
  79. David Csonka,
    I don't believe that fructose inhibts the insulin stimulation by glucose, either. That might be true for rats, but not for humans.

    I also don't think that fructose or sucrose cause insulin resistance. I think that they increase insulin sensivity.
    An evaluation of several studies concerning sugar and insulin resistance found no connection between sucrose intake and insulin resistance. Some studies actually indicate that sucrose improves the insulin sensivity.

    http://www.ajcn.org/content/78/4/865S.full.pdf

    Reply
  80. Hmmm, I came away from the call feeling disappointed. Not because of anything Matt did or didn't do/say. He was asking good questions, they just weren't really giving answers – except for the same one over and over -that basically it depends on the person.

    Well, I really think that is over-hyped. Just like the whole "adrenal fatigue" hype that, Matt himself just recently learned, is somewhat of a 'misconception' after all. It's commonly believed that the adrenals get 'fatigued' and take time and special strategy/diet to heal. Well that's not actually the case. The adrenals are just not getting the proper stimulation they need to perform their job effectively. Provide that stimulation and things start getting back to normal (assuming no other major malfunctions).

    But I just can't agree with the logic of tailoring things to individual needs and coddling your issues. Eating this and avoiding that – and going to extremes – to avoid any "issues" and discomforts associated with your issues. Doing so is what got you into that mess and caused your issues.

    And I can’t agree with dismissing traditional nutrition – saying we are different now than humans used to be so traditional nutrition doesn't apply to us today. I disagree with that and think the opposite is true. Dismissing traditional nutrition is what caused our modern day issues – because we got more and more away from traditional nutrition as time went by – and subsequently our health got more and more compromised. So go back to traditional nutrition – what actually worked well for traditional populations (and current populations still thriving) consuming their traditional foods, in traditional ways (and who had/have none of the issues we have now) – and I believe homeostasis can be achieved once again – because I’ve seen it happen for many people.

    You just heard even Josh say that if you give your body what it needs, it will know and do exactly what it needs to do with it. I agree with that. And the body will start to heal and re-balance – and eventually get back to homeostasis.

    Don't get so wrapped up in what you experience in the healing process. And don’t take it as a sign that it's not working or you shouldn't eat this or that, or that something's bad for you cause it made you feel this or that way. Learn from Matt's fruit revelations (after having bad experiences with it in the past) – that's why he shared it with us – to learn from it.

    It didn’t take just a few weeks or months to get your body out of whack. So allow your body time to heal, time to re-adjust, and learn how to digest and utilize nutrient dense food again. As long as you are consuming a good balance of sufficient wholesome nutritious food (including sugars and sugar sources) – and little to no man-made crap – you can’t go wrong. In other words, don't eat any (or much) man-made crap and you'll be okay again :)

    So, was it just me? Were you all disappointed by the call too? Did anyone get anything out of it? If so, please share. Thanks!

    Anxious to hear Matt's thoughts and summation of the call.

    Reply
  81. justme:

    I agree with a lot of that. Josh is claiming this is all so person-specific IMO so that he can get coaching clients, which I understand.

    BUT, like I've also said in the past, I don't believe this whole health thing to be nearly so individualistic. I believe there's close to an optimum for everyone, and it's simply a matter of a sliding scale of "rightness".

    To use my usual example, just look at animals. It's extremely egotistical of us to think we're somehow better or much more complicated than animals in this respect. The problem is that WE have overcomplicated things.

    I believe the same to be true of this adrenal healing protocol. There's likely a pretty optimal set-up for most people, with slight adjustments either way depending on the person.

    Reply
  82. And regarding the ongoing PUFA phobia…

    IMO it's just people assuming all PUFA in all foods, in general, are harmful because isolated PUFA used in studies was found to be harmful (and who even knows what other factors weren't considered). I have yet to find any evidence that natural food containing some naturally occurring PUFA, eaten intact with all its contents within a well balanced wholesome diet as a whole – is harmful to humans. As someone here pointed out, sure maybe PUFA that has been extracted (not to mention the extraction process itself causing its own damage) from its original natural whole source, and then eaten, is harmful – just like all that man-made processed crap is. And PUFA fed to rats in quantities that couldn’t be consider "normal" amounts by any means – probably are harmful.

    Well, show me the evidence, and maybe I'll be convinced that natural foods containing some naturally occurring PUFA are harmful to humans. I find it interesting how when anyone points to populations who eat naturally occurring PUFA-containing food, it's explain away with claims of special genes, or it's their environment, or that they 'adapted' to "tolerate" the PUFA blah blah blah.

    Reply
  83. Michael,

    I just saw your comments – after posting my PUFA rant :) and I totally agree with everything you said! Including the reason 'he' makes it so mysterious and person-specific – which I understand too – gotta pay the bills :)

    Reply
  84. I just wanted to point out for all of you peeps out there saying that pufas in natural foods aren't harmful, that Ray Peat has written in several articles that it isn't really the quantity of pufas thats the problem but the ratio of saturate to unsaturated fats.

    In fact in one article, he talks about how even though the coconut oil is 1-2% pufa it can still go a whole year left outside without becoming rancid because the saturated fats somehow prevent the unsaturated fats from going rancid. Anyways, if the human species did evolve in the tropics then I'm pretty confident to believe that their intake of saturated fat to polyunsaturated fat was pretty high.

    Reply
  85. rosenfeltc,

    Thanks for bringing that up. I was thinking about that when I was typing up my PUFA rant :) and I was going to point out (but forgot to) that even Peat himself makes that distinction.

    And I want to make clear that that's a distinction I make.

    I am just tired of people trying to tell us that we shouldn't eat (natural) foods that naturally contain some PUFA – not talking about modified foods, (most) liquid oils, and animals NOT fed their natural diet (all of which contain unnatural/unbalanced amounts of PUFA as a result).

    Again, I'm not saying that consuming high amounts of PUFA in general (and in relation to the rest of your diet) isn't harmful or that we should. That wouldn't be a balanced diet, which is what I was stressing – to not be scared of PUFA or sugar (or any other naturally occurring food/nutrient in any natural food) while eating a well balanced wholesome diet.

    That's all :)

    Reply
  86. I'm not super keen on these guys from the first half hour. I agree that they overuse the 'it's client-specific' line, and I'm also not keen on micro-managing the ratios, and the timing of foods. I have no intention of letting go of the aspiration for total dietary freedom, and I'm not adequately convinced that that freedom will come at the end of such a protocol, so I'm not prepared to go down that road, and maybe imprison myself more. But I don't want to dismiss it outright, so I'll lusten to the next half next time, and see what I think.

    Reply
  87. "I have no intention of letting go of the aspiration for total dietary freedom"

    Great line, Rob!

    Me either. I'll never let go of it (cause I know I don't have to, shh ;)

    And I echo the rest of your comments too.

    PS. What do you mean by first half hour and next half? Did I miss something? Call was a little over an hour, right? And no mention of more to come that I remember – but I could definitely be wrong :)

    Reply
  88. Justme I think it went an epic two hours. Mattie will have to fill us all in.
    And as Rob Says I will be damned if I go back to less dietary freedom, I want to Eat The Food. period.
    all this PuFa talk is making me sleepy.
    gotta get some of that molasses and raw cream concotion. It's like liquid Ambien.
    xo
    d.

    Reply
  89. Thanks, Deb, that's what I thought. And I'm with ya on "Eat (all) The (whole) Food" for life :)

    I just made a cup a coffee. It actually makes me sleepy (as long as I only have one cup). Gonna drink it while I replay the call (downloaded it) and listen for anything I missed. Which is usually the case when you read/watch/listen to something again. And some parts were choppy first time – hoping replay is better.

    Then I'm going to sleep myself. Goodnight, Deb ( and all :)

    Reply
  90. I kinda have to agree with some comments here… they're making this thing quite complicated, and maybe to get more clients, or maybe not. I am more for the direction this was headed before, breaking through this whole measuring out food, and stressing about this and that.

    Scott Abel just posted a good article about calories… and relaxed eating.

    Too bad chloe and harper aren't around… or maybe they're giggling in a coffee house somewhere about the direction this has all gone! Don't take that the wrong way… i have been loving my carbs, sugar and starch for along time now!

    troy

    Reply
  91. Now my comments are disappearing. Trying to make it stick

    Reply
  92. What I understand now about the sugar is that your body neeeeeeeds energy and needs it now, to keep you perky. Sugar/fruit gives it now, and keeps the liver all glycogened up without using up energy trying to digest it out of starch. I'm not sure how I feel about the example of sipping OJ over 3 hours. Teeth rot much?

    And again, is this catering to a problem or helping to overcome it. Is this a long term strategy, or like Matt mentioned about low-carbing, is it good for the first few months and then things slide. Matt and Josh were both saying how great sugar's making them feel, but will that last?

    I still want to hear a Wilson vs Peat smackdown about fruit in the AM.

    Those are my thoughts off the top of my head.

    Deb, I think you're in HI – what island are you on? Are you sick of tropical fruit? Cause I just don't get excited about pineapple, papaya, etc anymore (except when the sugarloaf pineapple comes in the summer!).

    Reply
  93. I can't make this part stick: I was disappointed too, but here's what I got out of it:

    Digestive inflammation is the thing to avoid, it's what sets off everything else. And digestive inflammation is caused by not properly digesting or metabolizing foods. I'm not sure what that means practically… one example he gave was meat putrefying in the gut. Not something I want to think about. But if I'm understanding, the undigested meat is causing an inflammation response, raising cortisol, and on and on. My question is, do we have to be tested to know if we're not digesting things (like gluten or meat) or are we just supposed to figure it out from our body's responses? And then what… do we avoid it temporarily? Be like Matt and eat vast amounts of it until our body gives in? Take HCl tablets?

    I think this is where it becomes person-specific. If I have putrefying meat (this image is stuck in my head), there must be a specific strategy I need to overcome it, that maybe you and Joe and Mary don't need.

    Reply
  94. "I find it interesting how when anyone points to populations who eat naturally occurring PUFA-containing food, it's explain away with claims of special genes, or it's their environment, or that they 'adapted' to "tolerate" the PUFA blah blah blah."

    Please name one population that eats a high PUFA diet and has good health.

    Reply
  95. Underwhelming interview to be honest. Not on Matt's part rather on Josh for parroting the "individual" spiel and trying to make things so complicated in an attempt to sell the consultations.

    Reply
  96. he is also very fat if what he says wrks so well why he is so fat

    Reply
  97. @Jannis

    "Please name one population that eats a high PUFA diet and has good health."

    The point isn't that a diet high in PUFA is healthy. It's that people eat foods like grains, nuts, seeds, pork, poultry that contains some PUFAs naturally and still stay healthy.

    Reply
  98. how could I forget fish…

    Reply
  99. Ok, let me rephrase my question. Which population eats a lot of grains, seeds, and nuts and is healthy? Nuts and seeds are even worse than refined oils, because they not only contain a lot of PUFA, but also a lot of anti- nutrients and indigestible stuff.

    Cold water fish is ok, if you eat only the lean muscle meat or the whole fish, including the thyroid and brain. Fish living in warm water are much better, because they contain mostly monounsaturated fats and very little PUFA.

    Reply
  100. Jannis,

    Here's an article from Don Matesz about the !Kung San, who eat about 50% of their calories as mongongo nuts, which is nearly 43% O6: http://donmatesz.blogspot.com/2010/03/paleo-diet-basics-why-i-eat-walnuts.html

    justme,

    I like that line too. :-) And I just meant I had to go to sleep and couldn't finish listening to it all last night, so I'll finish sometime today probably

    Reply
  101. I wonder if Josh is aware of just how cagey he comes across sometimes.
    He basically outlines very enthusiastically the various causes of various problems only to conclude that "you can't just go and drink some OJ and gelatin" – "fine tune etc, everyone's different" etc.

    Whilst I acknowledge that people are individuals, I honestly believe that people can and have, made major improvements by following principles.
    The individualism imo is more about manipulating the ratios of macros – which can be done with more clarity after a while spent well mineralised and in the absence of inflammatory triggers like excess pufa, muscle meat etc.

    If Josh really wants a radio show he needs to give a little more than what amounts to "you can't do it yourself" to his listeners.
    Basic strategies, for many listeners would be helpful, appropriate and compassionate whereas the current inbalance comes across as a bit of a pitch of his own expertise.

    I've made fantastic progress myself by processing the information of others and do listen to Josh's show when Ray Peat is on but I don't think the 'informal' format offers much to Josh's listeners.

    I actually had a feeling that Matt had a sense of this when he started asking Josh for specific recommendations for listeners.

    Reply
  102. btw,
    I thought Matt was pretty solid and articulate. I think the show's regular listeners will have found his openness refreshing.

    That is after all why people listen to these programmes – for empowering information.

    Reply
  103. My impression of Josh and Jeanne's reluctance to give general recommendations, and their caveats, etc. was that they didn't want people to go load up on sugar or OJ without understanding exactly what's going on in their bodies.

    I think we diet seekers are often so desperate for the magic bullet that as soon as someone starts talking a food or nutrient up we jump on it and start guzzling. The more the better.

    Potatoes are good for us? Then eating 20 potatoes a day must be *really* good for us! Butter is good for you? I'm going to eat a pound a day! Fruit isn't so bad? Then load me up with 30 bananas for breakfast!

    We're all about the quick fix, miracle pill, bigger is better, give me my solution now but only if it involves consuming unlimited quantities of *something* (meat, fruit, fat, milk, whatever).

    What's lost in that attitude is the concept of MODERATION. We are using sledgehammers on the delicate machines of our metabolisms by reading diet bloggers (no offense Matty, love you) and running out and going on this or that extreme, unnatural diet without stopping to pay attention to what's going on with our individual physiology.

    Who's ever craved 20 potatoes or 30 bananas or a pound of butter? It's more likely that your body would like a *balanced* diet with a variety of foods. I realize that most of us here have health issues resulting from hormonal imbalances that might be able to be corrected by diet, but making drastic changes to what we're consuming without knowing exactly what those imbalances are, I think, can be dangerous. We can make things worse.

    I'm glad J&J didn't tell us what to eat. How could they without knowing us? My suspicion is that what any one of us *should* and *shouldn't* eat is a subtle and delicate balance of things that could change over time depending on our physical state. There are no blunt sledgehammers here, as we've learned. Paleo isn't the answer, low-carb isn't the answer, high starch isn't the answer. I was listening to Barry Sears yesterday and he said that any diet described as "high" anything shouldn't be trusted.

    Balance. It's something Eastern medicine can teach us, I think.

    Reply
  104. fear of pufa. fear of meat. fear of making mistakes. but sugar is ok. ? no references other than Ray Peat. seems like a sense of exclusivity to have a new diet and guru that no one else has.

    Reply
  105. Gazelle, love your comment. That was my impression as well. As someone who's spent a lot of time hopping from bandwagon to bandwagon in the past, I still have to keep an eye on myself and make a conscious effort to take the balanced approach.

    Reply
  106. @ Jannis

    "Ok, let me rephrase my question. Which population eats a lot of grains, seeds, and nuts and is healthy?"

    Nobody (except for the !kung san apparently) eats tons of seeds or nuts. Those are eaten in moderation pretty much everywhere. Healthy people who ate lots of (whole) grains – WAP's NAPD has lots of those.

    "Nuts and seeds are even worse than refined oils, because they not only contain a lot of PUFA, but also a lot of anti- nutrients and indigestible stuff."

    And the next thing is that some researcher finds out that these are actually beneficial in the context of a balanced diet. Like phytic acid… The indigestible stuff that serves as a prebiotic and so on.

    Reply
  107. I agree, and forgot to mention, that Matt was impressive on the call as usual.

    I don't agree however, with the comments of Josh being fat and therefore not able to speak legitimately on health. A 6 pack of abs does not equal health, and a bit of extra body fat does not equal disease.

    Sure, I wouldn't personally hire him to train me for body composition changes, but I wouldn't hire Paul Chek or Scott Abel either.

    Reply
  108. @Gazelle

    That was a wonderful comment. Is seems at times (perhaps all the time) MODERATION is an unspeakable word in "dietary" circles.

    No offense to Josh, but for someone who can look at hundreds of variables in the human body why can't the dude take a call properly. To me is seems that every show, with almost (nice crotch call Johnny) every caller there is a problem. Josh's response; "I hate callers".

    Really?!

    Either way I don't want to dog on Josh too much, he definitely is adding to the world of heath and nutrition.

    Reply
  109. @Gazelle & Elizabeth –
    Right on! The "magic pill" thinking is insidious and prevails unless we are very conscious to recognize and avoid it.
    As a clinician (I practice holistic acupuncture/herbalism) I wanted J & J to share some insights other than that guidance is idiosyncratic. They call themselves "East West", but I didn't hear any coming through other than the "individualism" concept. To give them the benefit of the doubt, most listeners would be lost in a conversation about TCM/Ayurvedic approaches to recognizing constitution and imbalance patterns, but it would be nice to give a nod if that is an important part of your clinical strategy. Otherwise, I must assume that it isn't.
    Matt and the 180 crew often seem skeptical of "complementary practitioners", and as a result I tend to lurk quietly. But in my practice I see complicated people for whom blanket proscriptions get minor results, but being able to get specific can be miraculous. There is a role for holistic therapies in identifying constitution and imbalance, and a place for herbal support and assistance in nearly any healing regime. There are also a lot of poorly informed practitioners of various disciplines out there (in TCM school we learned about "new" approaches to treating hypercholesteremia with herbs and acupuncture, that SFAs were "BAD", & how to treat asymptomatic hypertension, a condition that "cannot exist" in the absence of a BP meter, which was the state of TCM 2000 years ago…)who get sold the current federally mandated concept of "health", or are too busy to learn new ways of thinking.
    I am sooo grateful for this forum and community of seekers. It has made me a better practitioner, helped improve my and my family's health, gotten my clients better results, and, after all, that is what it is all about, right? Some of us in the "complementary" world are trying to put it all together. The puzzle is very complex, and little pieces are strewn around in the most unexpected places. There needs to be more of us…and the clinic is where the truth is outed.

    On that note, does anyone know if Ray Peat is a clinician or primarily/only a researcher?

    Keep it up, gang!

    warm regards to you all,
    another Sheila

    Reply
  110. Ray Peat:

    "The half-life of fats in human adipose tissue is about 600 days, meaning that significant amounts of previously consumed oils will still be present up to four years after they have been removed from the diet."

    http://raypeat.com/articles/nutrition/oils-in-context.shtml

    Reply
  111. I agree that I was disappointed with the interview as well. I was expecting to hear more about the pros and cons of sugars vs starches.

    Matt asked him about how their clients are doing with the sugars and recommendations they give their clients. I was expecting to hear more about how clients from low carb had xyz issues and then went away after a while. I don't know just would have liked to hear more specifics.

    BTW did you see the new 180 Degree band? Matt looks good with a mustache.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2_m4LYAcdI&feature=player_embedded

    Reply
  112. Of course the recommendations are complicated or very individualized. If the process was simple, nobody would make any money off of it.

    Hence, why Barry Sears makes a mint off of his Zone system. It's incredibly complicated, requiring books and specialized products to help people do it.

    If you just went and said, "eat real whole foods, high quality stuff, not processed or manufactured junk, and you'll probably be OK" – nobody will pay you any money because it's so simple.

    You basically summed up all of your advice and the problems with the current food system in one sentence.

    The other reason to hedge on your platform is because you aren't incredibly confident in your pronouncements.

    Reply
  113. Hans and Rob,

    Thanks for tackling the PUFA thing with Jannis. Obviously she put words in my mouth, by saying "high PUFA diet" – everyone here can see I specified the opposite – like Hans pointed out. But then another exaggerated statement was made to replace the first one…

    "Which population eats a lot of grains, seeds, and nuts and is healthy?"

    Who only eats grains, seeds, and nuts, really? And the Kung San, apparently, do fine on their nuts (couldn’t resist it! ;)

    Then, the rest of the arguments were simply picking and choosing the bits and pieces that fit your beliefs – like this is ok because this, or this is ok if that, but this is bad because the sun wasn’t shining. OMG, just let go of the fear of any real, natural (non-modified/man-made) food.

    Nuts and seeds are even worse than refined oils?? Because they not only contain a lot of PUFA, but also a lot of anti- nutrients and indigestible stuff??

    Really?

    OK, you eat the processed oils in your diet and I’ll eat natural nuts and seeds (that, apparently, nature put here to taunt us, as a cruel joke, along with sugar) in my diet, and we’ll see who is left standing – in better heath :)

    Jannis (I’m just teasin ya) I mean no offense, but that was a lot of just grasping, IMHO, not evidence.

    Rob pointed us to "one population that eats a high PUFA diet and has good health." Thank you, Rob! Granted, I haven’t read the article yet – and maybe there are other factors to be considered – but that’s my point about PUFA – there are other factors to be considered. Stop using the harmful affects of isolated, processed, otherwise unnatural, and excessive amounts of PUFA (rats or humans) as arguments that ANY and ALL consumption of PUFA is bad, no matter what. That logic didn’t make sense with fats or carbs or sugars or any naturally occurring food, and it doesn’t make sense with all PUFA. But that’s just me.

    A better question to be posed is, please point me to one population that eats a high (naturally occurring) PUFA diet and has BAD health. Which, if I recall, was my original request, I think lol!

    Rob,

    Yep, it kinda dawned on me later on last night that that’s what you meant lol. The naturally occurring PUFA in all the natural food I eat must be really messin me up ;)

    Seriously, I’d be interested to hear your thoughts after you get a chance to finish it.

    Reply
  114. Paraphrasing Ray Peat:

    Farmers discovered that feeding lots of corn & soy to pigs lowered their metabolism and made them eat less and gain more weight. Since they were slaughtered at a young age it didn't matter what health problems this caused.

    People used to think of lard as a saturated fat, but because of their diet in recent times the fat composition of lard has become identical to corn/soy oil in terms of ratio of saturated to unsaturated fat.

    So, pork fat/lard ≈ vegetable oil.

    Pigs are omnivores, but vegetarian cows and sheep (red meat) evolved a stomach which destroys polyunsaturated fat with the help of certain enzymes and Vitamin E.

    This is why the fat tissue of ruminants has a much lower amount of unsaturated fat.

    Reply
  115. Paraphrasing Ray Peat:

    Poultry animal fat tissue reflects what they eat more than ruminants because they do not have the previously mentioned "unsaturated fat filter" that ruminants do.

    (ruminants = animals with a rumen: cattle, goat, sheep, bison, deer, etc.)

    Poultry is not as bad as pork though, because poultry live at a higher body temperature / metabolism even though they may have the same high unsaturated fat diet.

    The extremely unsaturated fats in the diet get oxidized so fast in the high temperature / metabolism environment of poultry that they don't make into the tissue as much as they would in a pig or a rabbit.

    The higher the body temp of the organism the higher the ratio of sat:unsat fat has to be.

    —-

    Source: Ray Peat Radio Interview

    http://media18.podbean.com/pb/00f420897a609c0aa1bea6edff90abde/4d8a0891/blogs18/45368/uploads/Interview_DrPeat_9_18_08_112K_PodBean.mp3

    Reply
  116. Good feedback too, Rocket, thank you. And I agree, Matt seemed a tiny bit frustrated – understandably so. But I too think he did well on his part.

    Lorelei aka Hawaiigirl said…

    "I think this is where it becomes person-specific. If I have putrefying meat (this image is stuck in my head), there must be a specific strategy I need to overcome it, that maybe you and Joe and Mary don't need."

    It's not as person-specific as some would have us believe. We ALL (at some point or another anyway) have or had putrefying meat in our body – because we eat such meat heavy diets, in general (huge 10oz steaks, etc.). There's no special or specific strategy needed for each person to coddle certain issues. The strategy, in the case of putrefying meat, is to stop eating so much meat and such an unbalanced diet. Like the high and low type diets (not to mention man-made crap).

    And this is true for most any other "issues" (outside of extraordinary cases, such as missing organs, birth defects, and so on). But provided you have all your organs, and they're working, and not otherwise disadvantaged by birth defects, for example – if you bring balance to your body, your body will regain balance – homeostasis.

    I know that sounds too simple to be true. We think it should be complicated (and some people like it that way). But it only seems complicated because WE complicate it or believe others who complicate it. But the simple truth of it is, eating more and more man-made crap and less and less nature-made food is what threw our bodies out of balance. And some more extreme than others, so some will take longer than others to recover. But it really is as simple as doing a 180! Eat more nature-made food and much less man-made crap. Then, be patient, it works. And I don't have to rely on studies to convince me, cause I've seen it work for many, with my own eyes :)

    Even Brock commented about the great results he got from doing the EXACT opposite of what Chief said he did to get fat (for his own experimental purposes – not cause Chief WANTS to be fat and sick :) Anyway, you get the point.

    BTW, I miss the big Chief. Hurry back, Chief!

    Reply
  117. OK, one more, then I'll shut up – for now :)

    Gazelle,

    I think that by J & J telling people that SUGAR is NOT bad, like everyone thought, and that it’s actually good for you – but then NOT telling people general basic principals of what else to eat or not (with our sugars), is actually what will make people just blindly "load up" on a bunch of sugar – cause "it’s good for me!"

    And you said…

    "I think we diet seekers are often so desperate for the magic bullet…"

    Exactly. And that’s why people aren’t patient enough to wait for their body to regain balance with a well balanced traditional nutritional diet. Because…

    "We're all about the quick fix, miracle pill, bigger is better, give me my solution now…"

    Reply
  118. justme:
    Jannis is a boy. :)
    I just listened to the epically long conversation with the Rubin's. I enjoyed it, did feel there was a lack of stories about the Rubin's clients, those are the things I look forward to.. x guy got off starch on more sugar/fruit this happened..
    Johnny Lawrence was Stellar, made me laugh while walking the dog, too funny.
    I always like hearing Matt tell about his process and his voice is nice too. Overall, it was a good 90 minute walk podcast for me. The most startling thing, sorry I am lame if you all knew this, was that starch does not replenish glycogen in the liver. I somehow thought it did. So eating less tateys and more oranges makes way more sense for me.
    xo
    deb
    Ps Loreli, nope I live in so cal. My inlaws live in hawaii. I love pineapple and mango and bananas. When I go to Kaui the fruit is just amazing and I love it all. I miss starfruit. can't get good stuff here

    Reply
  119. Deb–I enjoy Matt's voice too. It matters.

    Sure, it all has to be about balance, but agreeing with Deb again, some anecdotal pieces about how this particular reinvisioning of 'balance' have worked for other people would be helpful and inspiring.

    That glycogen in the liver piece is interesting for sure: at one point, I thought that was what was supposed to be so bad about fructose.

    Fascinating 180's about the pulse too–I'll look forward to more on the motivations for that.

    Reply
  120. A question also: after seeing a couple people talk about armpit temperatures being less reliable than sublingual, I took both this morning, and my sublingual (98) was over 2 degrees higher than my armpit (95.9)!

    This is n=1 so far, and I'll do it again a few times to see, but what's the consensus on which is more accurate? I'd love to believe the sublingual.

    Reply
  121. Paraphrasing Ray Peat:

    Because of the high concentrations of unstable unsaturated fat, leaving a piece of fish out at room temperature is even worse than vegetable oil at room temp.

    The fish fat gets rancid very quickly because it has evolved to live in cold water at just slightly above freezing temperatures. At room temp the fat oxidizes very quickly.

    You can do an experiment where you put a cork with a tube onto a bottle of vegetable oil at room temperature and place the tube into a glass of water. And the oil as it oxidizes will suck the water up the tube as the oil absorbs oxygen and starts turning into a plastic or varnish-like material.

    *Like the dried oil on the outside of a bottle in your cubbard – which is why vegetable oils are an ingredient in paint and varnish.

    *Coconut oil, on the other hand was lab tested to have no rancidity even after a year at room temp – even though it does have a small amount of unsaturated fat.

    Body temperature correlates with the ratio of sat:unsat fat in all fish/animals.

    A biochemist put sweaters on pigs and found that their fat was more saturated just by keeping their skin warmer!

    —-
    Source: Ray Peat Radio Interview
    http://media18.podbean.com/pb/00f420897a609c0aa1bea6edff90abde/4d8a0891/blogs18/45368/uploads/Interview_DrPeat_9_18_08_112K_PodBean.mp3

    *added these from memory of Ray Peat's articles
    —–

    My thoughts:

    Re: pigs w/ sweaters

    It follows that the human body at higher temp / metabolism will store less unsaturated fat. This could possibly explain why some people could be "immune" to diets high in unsaturated fat.

    It also follows that the unsaturated fat storage → low metabolism / temperature could be a positive feedback loop a.k.a. a vicious cycle.

    Re: rancid / oxidized fats

    Some quotes from Sally Fallon:

    "Rancid oils are characterized by free radicals.

    Free radicals "attack" cell membranes and red blood cells causing damage in DNA/RNA cells that can trigger mutations in tissue, blood vessels and skin. Free radical damage to the skin causes wrinkles and premature aging, free radical damage to the tissues and organs sets the stage for tumors and free radical damage to the blood vessels initiates the buildup of plaque.

    Studies have repeatedly shown a high correlation between cancer and heart disease with the consumption of polyunsaturates … new studies link exposure to free radicals with premature aging, with autoimmune diseases such as arthritis and Parkinson's disease, Lou Gehrig's disease, Alzheimer's and cataracts."

    – Nourishing Traditions, p.10

    Reply
  122. I've posted a few highlights from this interview already but there are just too many gems here.

    I highly recommend listening to this interview with Ray Peat. I would bet that everyone here will be glad they did.

    They mostly discuss unsaturated fat and coconut oil.

    If you thought Josh Rubin's advice was too general then just go straight to his source: Ray Peat!

    Also, it's much easier to listen to Ray Peat then to read Ray Peat.

    The direct link from my earlier comments didn't seem to work so you can find it here. Ray Peat Interviewed by "Eluv" of Ultrasounds Radio:

    http://www.podbean.com/podcast-detail?pid=27477

    Reply
  123. If you do not have any knowledge of biochemistry, then fine. You are under no obligation to believe in Ray Peat's positions. You should doubt it, and continue to follow how traditional societies ate. I think that is a safe place to get our nutrition recommendations, if you do not have any knowledge of biochemistry.

    However, if you do have a large amount of knowledge of biochemistry, then you can refine your nutritional recommendations. Biochemistry helps you to understand the causes and effects more, so you can know how and to what extent a food or nutrients plays in the body. If biochemistry demonstrates that polyunsaturated fatty acids or glycation is harmful, then by all means you can limit them while still maintaining a balanced diet.

    After all, what traditional societies ate are merely guidelines for what your diet should be like. So even if some traditional societies ate a large amount of polyunsaturated fat, you can still limit them if biochemistry demonstrates negative effects of it.

    Jannis understands biochemistry, and he knows that there is confirmation bias. Like everyone, Jannis tries hard not to fall under the trap of confirmation bias. Also, Jannis knows that diets should be balanced, and everything should be under moderation. Jannis just thinks polyunsaturated fats are an exception to the moderation principle. As he believes that polyunsaturated fats have been demonstrated to be harmful, by biochemistry.

    If you do not understand biochemistry, then you are under no obligation to agree with Jannis or Ray Peat. We encourage you not to trust anyone unless you researched it yourself. Jannis, like all of us, is just stating his opinion of polyunsaturated fats, and is intending to give us a starting point on what to research if you are undecided about the effects of polyunsaturated fats.

    We wish all of us to have a respectable debate on this.

    We understand that Debbie did not really mean it when she called Jannis to be a "boy." Debbie is just doing this to exaggerate those who she disagrees with, just to seek attention. She feels the need to insult others to incite responses, because, she thinks that not enough people are already paying attention to her.

    So please do not be offended by it, Jannis. Debbie did not really mean it when she called you a "boy."

    Thank you for reading.

    Please email us at alplex9@yahoo.com if you want us to hear from you. Thank you!

    Reply
  124. If you do not have any knowledge of biochemistry, then fine. You are under no obligation to believe in Ray Peat's positions. You should doubt it, and continue to follow how traditional societies ate. I think that is a safe place to get our nutrition recommendations, if you do not have any knowledge of biochemistry.

    However, if you do have a large amount of knowledge of biochemistry, then you can refine your nutritional recommendations. Biochemistry helps you to understand the causes and effects more, so you can know how and to what extent a food or nutrients plays in the body. If biochemistry demonstrates that polyunsaturated fatty acids or glycation is harmful, then by all means you can limit them while still maintaining a balanced diet.

    After all, what traditional societies ate are merely guidelines for what your diet should be like. So even if some traditional societies ate a large amount of polyunsaturated fat, you can still limit them if biochemistry demonstrates negative effects of it.

    Jannis understands biochemistry, and he knows that there is confirmation bias. Like everyone, Jannis tries hard not to fall under the trap of confirmation bias. Also, Jannis knows that diets should be balanced, and everything should be under moderation. Jannis just thinks polyunsaturated fats are an exception to the moderation principle. As he believes that polyunsaturated fats have been demonstrated to be harmful, by biochemistry.

    If you do not understand biochemistry, then you are under no obligation to agree with Jannis or Ray Peat. We encourage you not to trust anyone unless you researched it yourself. Jannis, like all of us, is just stating his opinion of polyunsaturated fats, and is intending to give us a starting point on what to research if you are undecided about the effects of polyunsaturated fats.

    We wish all of us to have a respectable debate on this.

    We understand that Debbie did not really mean it when she called Jannis to be a "boy." Debbie is just doing this to exaggerate those who she disagrees with, just to seek attention. She feels the need to insult others to incite responses, because, she thinks that not enough people are already paying attention to her.

    So please do not be offended by it, Jannis. Debbie did not really mean it when she called you a "boy."

    Thank you for reading.

    Please email us at alplex9@yahoo.com if you want us to hear from you. Thank you!

    Reply
  125. Deb,

    OMG! Thanks for telling me. I didn't know that Jannis is a boy. I'm so embarrassed :)

    Jannis,

    I honestly did not know. I was wrong in assuming and I sincerely apologize, really :)

    sirhc said…

    "If you thought Josh Rubin's advice was too general then just go straight to his source: Ray Peat!

    Also, it's much easier to listen to Ray Peat then to read Ray Peat."

    I was thinking the same thing and plan to do just that – go straight to the source and 'listen' to, rather than read, the Peatser :)

    And thanks for posting all that info – fascinating stuff! I love to learn. Aside from sex, it's my favorite thing to do – learn something new!

    But that's just me ;)

    Reply
  126. justme said:

    "Aside from sex, it's my favorite thing to do – learn something new!"

    The other advantage of listening to Ray peat rather than reading is you can now do both these things – at the same time ;p

    On second thoughts…..

    Reply
  127. you know Organism as a Whole, why on god's green earth would you think we would not recognize your distinctive style?
    Jannis is MALE. Is that what you are getting at in your oddball way?

    You are really special.

    Reply
  128. and for the record, I do not disagree with Jannis, never said I did on this topic.
    I smell Coco puffs.

    Reply
  129. One point that I wanna make about the PUFA rich diet of the !Kung San: if we're being consistent here, we'd be all about not excluding PUFAs, for the same reason that Mattatack is all about not excluding wheat. The Hunzas are the example that folks point to and say: 'hey- here's a population that ate it and was healthy.' (Ignore the fact that they were the biggest Indians, which Matt points out real scientists like Lindeberg say isn't a marker of health, and may even be a marker of ill-health).

    And since the Hunzas ate wheat with apparent robustness, then clearly we all should be able to eat chow down on bread and pasta (though the Hunzas ate fresh ground chapati mostly) and do super awesome. Feel free to ignore the reams of data that suggest, at the least, that wheat is problematic for at least a good number of people. The Hunzas ate it, so should I.

    Likewise- the !Kung ate PUFAs in nuts, so load up on 'em! Might as well. Ignore the data suggesting that PUFAs are problematic at least in some contexts, and eat em up!

    Now I'm being a smart-ass, of course. But I do think it's inconsistent to booster a single class of edible seeds (wheat and barley and other gluten-y grains) as ok, and deem irrelevant the very very widespread practice of fermentation and generalized avoidance of un-processed grains, and at the same time go to war with a specific type of fat or protein found widely in foods that people have been eating for a good long time. Just sayin y'all- be wary of such bold proclamations

    Reply
  130. I don't understand 'Anonymous'' polemic against Deb at all. She was pointing out that Jannis is male, when someone had assumed that the name was a variant on the female 'Janice.' I would be surprised if anyone took offense at that, and saw no disagreement implied there.

    But, great point about the mongongo nuts/wheat not proving anything: Matt said it really well on the radio show in response to Johnny's second question–the cream of the genetic crop is what you end up with in these challenging food situations–now we want to be our own best expression without those constraints.

    Reply
  131. "We wish all of us to have a respectable debate on this."

    Ah! We are in total agreement there! :)

    I thought we were all grown-ups here and that we were having a friendly and “healthy” debate. And I thought that’s what the purpose of the comments section is – to discuss things and learn from each other. We wouldn’t really learn much if we all agreed on everything and didn’t challenge each other to consider other possibilities.

    That being said, Jannis drew first blood lol! Yeah, um, he started it :p (just kidding!) And in my response, I did say to him that I was teasing – just like I am now. Cause I’m not a negative person – but I don’t walk away from a (healthy) debate either – especially if someone calls me out specifically. Jannis challenged me directly and I (and others) responded. But I certainly didn’t take anything personally, nor do I begrudge him or have any ill feelings towards him.

    For the record, it was "justme" ( not Debbie – see we all make mistakes :) who mistakenly referred to Jannis as "he" – and I (justme) have already sincerely apologized to him for that. I honestly did not know that Jannis was male. And it was, absolutely, in no way intentional or meant to be antagonistic.

    I’m here to learn more and even challenge what I think I know – and welcome anyone to challenge what I think I know and hopefully learn something new from it. In the process, I was just sharing my opinions, experience, knowledge (what I think I know), and observations – because I’ve personally had a life-changing experience and witnessed the same for others – with the info that I’ve shared. I wish I could tell everyone but I can’t. So I tell everyone that I can. They can take what they want and leave what they don’t. No biggie.

    OK, I’m done now. You peeps play nice :)

    Reply
  132. justme: it's old business that is getting vented out here, not sure why.

    And also for the record, I don't recall insulting anybody. If I did, I apologize.
    I try to play nice with others.

    I do, however, run with scissors.
    Can't win em all.
    (wink)
    How about that Johnny Lawrence eh?
    :)

    Reply
  133. oops! I forgot Rocket!

    I saw that, Rocket, but gonna leave that one alone ;)

    Just saw Deb's too. Thanks for letting me know. And nope, you didn't insult anyone – Anon was referring to me but just got our names mixed up – see none of us are perfect :)

    Careful you don't poke out an eye! ;)

    Gotta love Johnny!

    Reply
  134. Yeah, that latest Anon has gotta be Organism. He's so easy to recognize. Pretty sure Jannis is male too. And Organism's whole 'Jannis is a biochemist' rant… yeah, well so am I. Problem is, my area of expertise is RNA and adenosine deaminase. There's so much to know, we all just know our own little areas of science. Just because I'm a biochemist, doesn't mean I can read Peat without thinking they're the most ill-written articles I've had to endure in a long time – and that I've got better stuff to do. Plus, as so many have pointed out, we can all find the studies we want to prove our points. Doesn't mean a thing. When you start looking at food and nutrition from a reductionist (ie biochemical) viewpoint, you always miss something – because we just can't know everything.

    On the other hand, the thing that sticks with me about PUFAs is the idea that bears and other hibernating animals load up on them in the fall, which then slows down their metabolism, and that type of fat in their cells keeps them from freezing, literally. I have no issue with eating a handful of nuts now and then, but when you're coming in off of years of high-PUFA consumption, and it takes 2-4 years to push them out of your system, that's why the super-low PUFA diet is recommended.

    Justme – the point Josh made about meat putrefying is not that we're eating 10oz steaks, but that our metabolism is damaged and that we are not actually digesting the meat, therefore setting off digestive inflammation, leading to rising cortisol, etc. The same can be true for any food (wheat, fat, etc). The question is a) how do we know what's setting off our personal digestive inflammation and b)what approach do we take in solving it? Matt's approach would be to eat huge quantities of whatever it is until your body gives in. :) That rules out moderation.

    Reply
  135. I've _always_ thought Jannis was a girl! How did you get to know otherwise? :)

    I assumed OAAW was thinking of the use of 'boy' as perjorative. Maybe it in certain contexts, but I wouldn't have thought so in this one.

    Now going back under my rock.

    Reply
  136. Jannis is a boy's name. Greek or Eastern European I think. Although I have a personal vision of a big blond Nordic guy. Jannis, clue us in!

    Reply
  137. I have just recently started reading your blog and I have to say I was so excited to watch this video clip. I admit I haven't yet ready through the 124 comments here, BUT I just wanted to share that I'm under the care of a practitioner using Ray Peat's advice and, though slow, I'm seeing improvements in my health.

    I've fought and fought against the "sugar is good for you" thing. But, along with other dietary changes, I can only see it helping. One thing that my health counsellor explained is that yes, our bodies want and need fruit, the fruit on our shelves now-a-days has been picked before it's really ripe. The last little bit of ripening time is when the most nutrients (including sugars) should naturally go 'into' our fruit. My health consultant has me add sugar with cream of tartar to my fruit. 1/4 tsp. cream of tartar (which is mostly potassium) to about a Tbsp. of organic cane sugar. The potassium helps to get the glucose into our cells. Diabetes is more of a potassium and protein deficiency issue than a sugar issue.

    I am low thyroid with adrenal issues and o.j. with sea salt IS helping me. It just takes time…

    Think about this – God designed breast milk as the perfect food for babies. What does it consist of mostly? Saturated fat, protein, and glucose. When we outgrow needing breastmilk, our bodies don't just suddenly change in their needs. Our bodies still need saturated fat, protein, and glucose! ~Melissa~

    Reply
  138. @ Annette:
    Here's how:
    http://www.blogger.com/profile/10760269096994519209

    If a person's screen name is in color and underlined, click on it and you can find out info about them.
    Hence, the man Jannis.
    His blog Proline is mostly about biochemical stuff and about Mr. Peat's ideas/theories.
    deb

    Reply
  139. Or you can be smart like Deb and figure it out from his profile :).

    Reply
  140. Doh! I just realized that I didn't know what the hell I was talking about! LMAO!

    Anon mistook Deb's comment to me that "Jannis is a boy" (to correct me) as calling Jannis a "boy" – as an insult.

    Anyway, that whole thing was just a big misunderstanding lol!

    And in my comment above I mis-typed "he" and meant "she" which only confused things more LMAO!

    I need some sugar!! Mmmm, coco puffs!

    Reply
  141. justme
    COO COO is my usual state of mind.
    xo
    deb

    Reply
  142. Lorelei–great points about the 'blind men describing an elephant' aspect of overspecialization in the sciences.

    And, as a person who moved from HI to Alaska, I totally agree with you that the point about the necessity of PUFAs for hibernating animals and coldwater fish is what struck home for me. An interesting thought: the squirrels up here _don't_ hibernate, and no nuts grow in Alaska–too cold! (of course squirrels everywhere eat loads of things besides nuts, but you see my point).

    On the 'whole-food PUFA sources may have some merit' argument, I seem to remember Peat saying that adding vit.E could mitigate negative/inflammatory effects of omega-6's. Well, almonds and sunflower seeds, and other nuts/seeds high in omega-6, are also touted as great sources of vit.E, so maybe that offsets the negative in some way.

    Reply
  143. Thanks to Deb and Lorelei for pointing me in the right direction.

    I must confess I rarely if ever look at profiles – there's too much else to read here and elsewhere! (Let alone have time to put all these ideas into practice.)

    Thank you all for all the interesting discussions.

    Reply
  144. Lorelei aka Hawaiigirl said…

    "Justme – the point Josh made about meat putrefying is not that we're eating 10oz steaks, but that our metabolism is damaged and that we are not actually digesting the meat, therefore setting off digestive inflammation, leading to rising cortisol, etc. The same can be true for any food (wheat, fat, etc). The question is a) how do we know what's setting off our personal digestive inflammation and b)what approach do we take in solving it? Matt's approach would be to eat huge quantities of whatever it is until your body gives in. :) That rules out moderation."

    I wasn't conveying or interpreting what Josh was saying about it. I was just saying (IMO) that the reason…

    "our metabolism is damaged and that we are not actually digesting the meat, therefore setting off digestive inflammation, leading to rising cortisol, etc."

    is because a person (in that case) has been or is eating too much meat (10oz steaks, etc.) – And as I said before, yes I agree, the following applies to other foods and issues (not just meat or that issue).

    But I was saying the solution is to simply stop eating so much meat – or any high/low diet – and eat a well balanced diet of wholesome nutritious foods (no man-made crap). Then be patient and let the food and body do its magic. That's all :)

    Hope that made it more clear. Sometimes I have a hard time making things as clear in writing as it is in my head lol! You should see me express myself verbally in person lol! Better though :)

    Ela said…

    "I seem to remember Peat saying that adding vit.E could mitigate negative/inflammatory effects of omega-6's. Well, almonds and sunflower seeds, and other nuts/seeds high in omega-6, are also touted as great sources of vit.E, so maybe that offsets the negative in some way."

    = "Eat (all) The (whole) Food" err something like that :)

    Nature knows best. If you eat naturally occurring foods whole – the body will get all it needs – including protection from what it doesn't :)

    @Deb

    Mmmm, COO COO puffs!

    I really do need to go eat something! :)

    Reply
  145. Matt, I really like your research efforts and you make great points, along with the Rubins, I love them as well.

    I also follow Sean @ Underground Wellness and he invites people that align with his (meats/dairies & saturated fats) no grains/starches? period approach. I remember when you were on his show too. I can't help but feel a little tugged by both sides.

    Right now I am on Martin Berkans's IF routine, it has ALOT of protein, that of which I'm not in LOVE with but the results shows. I want to be healthy from the inside out, without sacrificing the looks…I'm a mess…I know. :)

    I think the question is, where do we go from here? Visit the Rubins?

    Reply
  146. Here are two sites I found that describe Ray Peat's dietary recommendations – which would apparently have to be pieced together from multiple articles and interviews if you want to figure it out on your own.

    Warning: Read at your own risk. He says some things you might not want to hear. Also, these recommendations are compiled by others, not by Peat – so they may or may not be the most accurate.

    http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=419742&page=1

    http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AV-Skeptics/message/5523

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  147. glad some one else brout up the vit e point agin. i did to the other day. and so did el66k months back talkin bout pufas and vit e. but no one seems to ever notise. i new that ray peat sayz it and why i dont hate all pufas. but pufa haters that are ray peat peeps even ignore that ray peat makes that point.

    i think its rite and why food shoud be eatin whole and naturel as poss so it comes with its good and protecton from bad. allot of foods have vit e and other ways to make whole foods complete. trust nature. i dont stress over pufas in real whole foods. and im golden.

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  148. I don't know where the name comes from, but in Germany, where both Jannis and me live, Jannis is a pretty typical name for a male.
    That's why at first I was quite confused how one could call Jannis a girl. Silly Americans!

    Reply
  149. Hey, this is the retard not understanding bio-chemistry…

    Since only Ray Peat and his followers understand biochemistry…

    My point is… exclusively choosing your diet by some isolated factors like "it should be low in PUFAs" is a bad idea. For example, I could promt this with eating tons of beef now, loading my bowels with iron, which could cause other problems. This is just an example. What I mean is that there are many many many factors in the way the human body functions that nobody really understands. Therefore I think this exclusive focus on PUFA is a bit misguided.

    That being said, my diet is pretty low in PUFAs. That is a natural consequence of avoiding vegetable oils except coconut and red palm, eating little animal products, just a few almonds a day and nuts / seeds only occasionally (mainly because I don't care for them much and they are dangerous to overeat on.)

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  150. "Vitamin E supplementation is seldom as effective as the absence of the toxic oils." ray peat

    he has recommended to take 100iu vit e with a meal cooked in veg oil. that is way more than you get in "natural foods" like nuts and seeds. and of course that is if the vit e is still in the food by the time you eat it. the foods highest in it are usually the foods that go rancid fastest.

    but if you have your heart set on eating pumpkin seeds and wheatgerm then go for it. i live in the place where there is loads of fatty fish available but most people who've never heard of omega 3 hate them because they taste rancid unless extremely fresh.

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  151. "Think about this – God designed breast milk as the perfect food for babies. What does it consist of mostly? Saturated fat, protein, and glucose. When we outgrow needing breastmilk, our bodies don't just suddenly change in their needs. Our bodies still need saturated fat, protein, and glucose! ~Melissa~"

    I agree. Kurt of Panu has said that the body uses saturated fat and glucose as our internal foods and can be eaten. What I do not understand with all this fruit and sugar talk is that the carb content is not just glucose. It is also sucrose and fructose. Fructose not specifically having any "need" in the body. So if it is the glucose we need then why sugar to get it? Why not eat rice or potatoes of which constitutes of mostly glucose? Or if we have to go down the add glucose to things route then why not just add dextrose ( pure glucose)?

    So yes, if our need is glucose then why sugar?

    Reply
  152. anonymous-

    do you feel the same eating a potato as you do eating an orange?, or even rice?, every single time?, i doubt it.

    if i want to eat but i'm not too hungry then i'll have a potato. if i'm a bit hungrier i'll have rice. if i am really hungry i'll have sugar. sure, i could have a potato, after all it will give me glucose, but sugar will give it to me much quicker. do we need fructose?, or lactose?, or any other sugar?, i don't know but i don't think they are bad. the maasai seem to do ok eating loads of lactose i.e sugar.

    i think a lot of people here are over thinking sugar. you want as much energy as you can throughout the day. in my experience this means different carbs at different times. i think this is the great benefit of sugar, energy. if you feel full of energy all day eating potatoes then great, sugar probably isn't going to help you.

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  153. You say sugar will give you energy quicker than a potato, I was under the impression that potato gets absorbed at the speed of light? Sure I read Peat somewhere say something along those lines. I thought the idea with sugar was that it did not spike insulin as high or as quick which meant the energy/ sugar stayed in the blood longer?

    If I had the choice I would hit the fruit and juice really hard over eating rice or potatoes neither of which excite me too much.

    Still can not get over the glucose requirements thing. If I am going to eat 400g of carbs for the bodily requirement of glucose then why would I go for fruit that would net me a lot less glucose than say rice?

    If the fruit thing is that it maintains a more stable blood sugar level then why not go for a whole grain over the high hitting white rice or potato?

    I want to believe the fruit/ sugar thing because yes of course it tastes a lot better than rice or potato.

    We are not body-builders here, though to clearly see what can create extremely low levels of bodyfat we can look to them. The typical diet is quite a bit of protein with tons of glucose from starch sources. Never tons of fruit.

    Problem is there seems to be only one top guy, Ray Peat who suggests this high sugar thing. I want to believe it, but how can you believe one person whom has a few followers?

    There are millions of people over the world eating high starch/ protein/ low fructose and being able to build muscle with low bodyfat. Is that not the sign of a high working thyroid?

    Lee (previous anonymous)

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  154. Also to add, if I am really hungry I am more likely to eat anything, probably definitely something more substantial then fruit and even something I am not too keen on the taste of.

    I am more likely to eat fruit if I was only a little bit hungry, which is when I could go for something light that I would need to like the taste of.

    People are definitely over thinking the sugar thing because it's one of the first and main things you start to learn if interested in nutrition. AVOID SUGAR.

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  155. Lorelei aka Hawaiigirl — THANK YOU.

    '…doesn't mean I can read Peat without thinking they're the most ill-written articles I've had to endure in a long time…'

    No, he is not a good writer, and yes it is hard to hear him because his voice trembles and NO, THIS DOES NOT MEAN HE IS A GENIUS as several RP followers claim.

    Someone even called him the 'Mozart of nutrition' because he is hard to understand on audio recordings – wtf?

    There is a lot of putting RP on a pedestal (guru worship) going on with RP followers.

    Anyone else notice that they provide NO references – NONE – other than 'you have to read Ray Peat'

    Josh actually mentioned ONE other reference in a previous video — and that would be the FIRST any RP follower has mentioned anyone other than RP.

    Josh Rubin is correct that is highly individualized (you may not know this if you do not work with a variety of individuals who have many different health challenges) – it isn't as simple as 'eat whole foods and it will all work out.'

    I actually don't like Josh, but that's irrelevant, he is smart. He does know physiology really well. When he talks about individuality, it's because that is accurate.

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  156. Is it just me or are Peaty, the Jaminets and, dare I say it, Sears all saying kind of the same thing?

    Balance your protein with enough carbs but don't eat an excess of any one macro. Eat high quality whole foods, avoid PUFAs and unsafe legumes/grains… what am I missing?

    Reply
  157. Beware the Cult of Purity

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  158. Lee-

    to be honest i don't really think about insulin or blood sugar or whatever. i have no problems there. peat says starch is absorbed faster than sugar but that was pure starch in a rat. a potato is absorbed much slower than an orange in a human, my source for this is my belly haha. i am no "peat follower". i try things and see what works for me.

    i think you are looking at it as sugar vs starch. if i had to choose one i'd choose starch hands down. but sugar has its advantages. i eat sugar in the morning because i feel like it, a potato is the last thing i want. i eat starch the rest of the day because i feel like it, sugar won't satisfy. if i had no sugar it really wouldn't make much of a difference to me. i just feel better eating some.

    "Still can not get over the glucose requirements thing. If I am going to eat 400g of carbs for the bodily requirement of glucose then why would I go for fruit that would net me a lot less glucose than say rice?"

    fructose, glucose, its all energy. why not just eat whichever you want until you are full.

    "We are not body-builders here, though to clearly see what can create extremely low levels of bodyfat we can look to them. The typical diet is quite a bit of protein with tons of glucose from starch sources. Never tons of fruit."

    i think bodybuilders are healthy people to begin with. you cannot train and eat like if you weren't. they are very low bodyfat for a very short time. when they stop training most them probably explode anyway, not to mention loads of other health problems, not due to lots of starch though. i have nothing against high starch/low fat. i LOVE starch. again, i just feel like sugar sometimes. maybe in a few weeks i'll get bored with sugar. i don't know. the weather is getting nice now. if it wasn't maybe i wouldn't want sugar.

    "There are millions of people over the world eating high starch/ protein/ low fructose and being able to build muscle with low bodyfat. Is that not the sign of a high working thyroid?"

    i suppose so. most don't eat high protein though, or they eat more than they need to. and if i could only eat one diet it would be high starch, yams and coconuts, heaven. no one needs to eat sugar. but who says a little fruit wouldn't hurt IF you feel like it.

    Reply
  159. Discuss MSG as related to gelatin??? From what I have read even the bone broths are suspect, i.e. not recommended in quantity. (too bad)

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  160. Hans,

    Well said! I second that and raise ya this…

    "Vitamin E supplementation is seldom as effective as the absence of the toxic oils." -Ray Peat

    "he has recommended to take 100iu vit e with a meal cooked in veg oil. that is way more than you get in "natural foods" like nuts and seeds. and of course that is if the vit e is still in the food by the time you eat it. the foods highest in it are usually the foods that go rancid fastest." –terpol

    I recommend not eating a meal cooked in veg oil – and not taking unnatural amounts of anything ("this is way more than you get in "natural foods" –terpol) – especially synthetic man-made supplements and vitamins.

    Any supplements or synthetic vitamins seldom are effective – especially against toxic oils! The idea of trying to protect against the toxic affects of one man-made toxin with another man-made toxin, just makes no sense to me.

    In peoples (conditioned) belief that "it must be complicated" (nutrition), they tend to over-shoot (over-complicate) things – and they miss the big picture – and all the obvious, simple things that make up the big picture = not seeing the forest for the trees (err something like that :)

    Anyway, my point is (what Hans said), factors, context, the big pictures! And my emphasis has always been on nature, naturally occurring foods, in whole forms, AND NOT consuming/using man-made crap – including supplements and synthetic vitamins! Taking supplements/synthetics is NOT THE SAME AS EATING THE WHOLE FOOD! Not yelling, just making sure nobody misses that point this time lol! :)

    Nothing is the same as or a good substitute for the whole food – especially man-made supps/vits/syns, foodstuff and crap. Don’t second guess nature. Eat the foods whole and a good balance of all of them – and you’ll be good.

    Trust me I used to fight it too, thinking it can’t be that simple. But (luckily) I finally got hit by that ton of bricks! Hope you all do too someday :)

    "but if you have your heart set on eating pumpkin seeds and wheatgerm then go for it. i live in the place where…" -terpol

    If living in fear and anxiety over nutrition, and with restriction and deprivation (fighting your natural, innate, human cravings/urges), makes you feel in control (if that's your thing), then go for it. I live in the kind of world that Rob described – with total dietary freedom – eating a good balance of all natural whole foods (including sugars and not excluding foods containing naturally occurring PUFA). And I am good again (finally). And because I eat mostly natural whole foods (most of the time) – I can eat some man-made crap sometimes when I feel like it :)

    "If you eat (a good balance of) naturally occurring foods whole – the body will get all it needs – including protection from what it doesn't" –justme

    Reply
  161. 1ofus,

    Good points. And they bring up other good points…

    PUFA hating Ray Peat followers picking and choosing the bits and pieces of his advices that fit and ignore the rest? Accepting that all PUFA are bad, but not considering other factors – like (even according to Peat) Vitamin E negates the negative. But there's nothing wrong with challenging beliefs and theories. Just throwing that out there for discussion.

    If you’re willing to embrace (so-called evil) sugar (under Peat’s suggestion) – why not accept some naturally occurring PUFA, if Peat says Vitamin E (which occurs in foods naturally, btw) will protect you from their evils?

    For what it’s worth, I still believe that naturally occurring PUFA in natural foods (eaten whole) don’t have the same (negative) affects found by processed, man-made, isolated PUFA in studies. I believe natural PUFA (together with the rest of their original food source and all its contents) behaves in and affects the body differently than the unnatural isolated kind. But that’s just me :)

    But all natural foods have some kind of their own special qualities. Like Vitamin E, and other tocopherols, antioxidants, enzymes, live cultures, good bacteria, probiotics, and so on. So for foods that contain some naturally occurring PUFA (for example), then you’re covered (even according to Peat) by the Vitamin E (for example) in that and the other foods. Now that makes sense to me :)

    And that would explain why traditional populations – who ate a traditional diet of a good balance of natural whole foods (including all the so-called evil ill-causing foods) – had no negative affects (from PUFA or any foods), nor did they experience the illnesses and obesity we have today.

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  162. "i think a lot of people here are over thinking sugar." – terpol

    I agree. And I think a lot of people here are over-thinking PUFA too.

    madMUHHH,

    I agree, silly Americans! I'm American. But we're ALL silly wabbits! :)

    Reply
  163. Antonio said…

    "Josh Rubin is correct that is highly individualized (you may not know this if you do not work with a variety of individuals who have many different health challenges) – it isn't as simple as 'eat whole foods and it will all work out.'"

    I 'have' worked with a variety of individuals who (had) many different health challenges – so I do know that "eat whole foods and it will all work out" is true, more often than not – if you’re just patient. The problem is that people – even people who work with these people – expect a quick-fix and aren’t patient enough to give it time to work. Plus, they take symptoms of the healing process as signs that it’s not working, or that they have special needs, and should eat more of this or don’t eat that, etc. Just the detoxing in the healing process, alone, can make you feel all kinds'a crappy.

    The healing process is not a smooth, quick, easy ride to regaining homeostasis – but most get there (if they’re patient) – and some faster than others, cause some cases are more extreme than others.

    K, I'll shut up, for now :)

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  164. justme-

    i am not a "peat follower". i had seen that many healthy populations ate very little pufa before i read his articles. in fact my diet since i was a child was low pufa and i just ate what i wanted, dairy and potatoes and so on. irish people don't really snack on nuts. i also don't think that just because a food is naturally occuring it is good for humans.

    read my other posts about sugar. i can esily do without it. i just like eating some. and even before i knew what pufa were, before i knew anything about nutrition, i didn't like fatty fish or seeds or whatever else. they tasted bad to me, i guess because they were rancid. i loved fat though. someone can crave sugar, they can crave fat, but pufa?.

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  165. Ruben says not to just repeat what others have said and then goes on to reference Ray Peat 100 times.What a bunch of contrarians around here.Whatever is popular at the moment,just dig up some references to the opposite affect and make some noise.I guess it serves a purpose though…

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  166. Lee:

    You said: "We are not body-builders here, though to clearly see what can create extremely low levels of bodyfat we can look to them. The typical diet is quite a bit of protein with tons of glucose from starch sources. Never tons of fruit."

    The fact is many elite level bodybuilders, have cut for competition on a diet of strictly fish and fruit. Fruit is also used widely for a pre-workout snack, among other things.

    To everyone else on the PUFA/Vitamin E issue:

    I believe Peat said Vitamin E counteracts MOST of the damage from the PUFAs.

    Regardless, does it seem like a good idea, naturally occurring or not, if PUFAs are so damaging that they need Vit E (one of the strongest anti-oxidants we know of) to counteract the free radical effect of the food? This seems like an unnecessary stress on the body.

    I'm not in any way a Peat follower, but his point about PUFAs and Vit E is that if you happen to eat some of the stuff, you can at least counteract most of the damage by taking some Vit E afterward.

    Antonio:

    I don't believe Peat so be some nutritional prodigy, but I do believe him to be very intelligent. This is easily apparent despite having a trembling voice.

    His intelligence and ability to connect complicated biochemistry and reiterate an almost limitless supply of studies to back up his work is impressive regardless of age. When you take his age into account and how quick and sharp he is, it becomes very impressive.

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  167. justme ya peeps are gonna belief what they belief untill the simple truth hits em like a tun of bricks. if there lucky.

    they just keep missin it. in nature is natural. in a lab and in a bottle is not. natural food has natural vit e and natural pufas. peeps befor us and peeps now eat the whole food and dont get sick. may be its the vit e in food. may be natural pufas in food aint bad. dont mater. peeps use to eat all the foods and all over the world now and stay helthy. and so do i.

    extracted pufas wich aint natural any more was studied in a lab and was bad. fake vit e in a bottle helped but not totaly. not suprizing.

    1 contex is natural 1 is not and thers a big diff bwtween em. if u dont get it thats yor loss.

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  168. am I the only one who is getting about 20 of the same post about OOAW not hating me?
    make it stop..please.

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  169. Sorry, I did not see any of my comments show up I kept reposting.

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  170. 1ofus,

    Yep, I'm used to it. But I can relate to it – cause I used to be there too. It's hard to break through all the conditioning and long-held beliefs – even my own in the past. But when I finally made that breakthrough, it was life-changing! Now I freely share what I've learned, that got me to where I am now. I enjoy paying it forward. And if it gets through to even just one person, that's good with me. But I'm grateful that it's helped many over the years. That's why I'm just a wee bit passionate about spreading the truth – and a wee bit excited about challenging untruths and misinformation :)

    What brought me (about a year ago) to 180DH was the mindset of just "eat the food" (not so much lately lol!). So naturally I expected that many of us would be like-minded around here. But it's also valuable to learn from those who aren't :)

    BTW, you may not be the best speller, like you said, but you sure are able to splain things better than me – and with less words! Wish I could do that :)

    I think I’ll start using less words here now – as in no more. And go back to just lurkin :)

    Reply
  171. My rule these days is eat what appeals to me. Here's what I've figured out: despite the fact I have access to raw, cultured grass-fed butter, I prefer ghee. It just tastes better to me, so I usually eat it instead now. I tried the fruit-only for breakfast thing out of curiosity really, and I actually love it. It does bring energy, and it's just plain delicious. It's a happy start to my day. I have fruit for dessert, too, when I want. I go through periods when I crave avocados – yes, it's PUFA. I love them, if my body wants them I eat them. Same thing with corn tortillas, rice, lemons, ground beef, cheese and so on. I listen to my body. Today I ate a whole bar of white chocolate and felt amazing afterwards. I don't eat stuff like that often, but I think I needed it for whatever reason today.

    I think if we stop over-thinking and start listening to our bodies we find our paths. This is also what I was taught in overcoming my eating disorder. It works.

    -Amy

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  172. Amen Amy Amen.
    I like grass fed raw butter from Organic Pastures. Yes, I can eat it right out of the container. I love corn tortillas with it and real salt. yum.
    and I am glad you were not you know who again saying you know what under 'anonymous'. :)

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  173. Guess I can keep my sweet tooth after all! Mainly used for my drinks, not sweet stuff like cakes, ice cream etc….

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  174. As far as looking at human breast milk as to what is best to eat for humans, it just doesn't make sense to me. After a calf is done "nursing" from the mother cow, it then eats grass for the rest of its life. I didn't look it up, but I don't think that cow's milk and grass have similar macronutrient and fatty acid ratios. :-)
    jmho

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  175. Bodybuilders look that ripped only for contests. Look at pictures of Lee Priest during a contest and off-season. Off season he just looks like a fat guy…VERY fat guy. I have read stories of BB's not being able to have their pictures taken the day after a contest because they already look horrible the next day. There are a few guys that stay near-contest shape year round (like Serge Nubret) but they are few and far between.

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  176. I wonder if the reason that healthy Asian cultures ate white rice vs. brown rice was because the white can get the blood sugar up faster?

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  177. Real Will I think white rice is pure starch and easy to digest. I have to tell you, my chinese family (husband, kids etc) will not eat brown rice, they only want white. There is a massive difference in taste and chewiness factor of course. The best brown rice I have found is one that is sprouted, they sell it at whole foods, much nicer texture.
    xo
    deb

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  178. The Real Will-

    maybe that is the reasoning behind fufu and poi too. to make them digest and get the blood sugar up faster. i know if i'm really hungry no amount of potato satisfies but a little sugar will.

    wikipedia
    "In Ghana the ball is often not chewed but swallowed whole. In fact, chewing fufu is a faux pas." must digest pretty easily

    has anyone here actually eaten them?

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  179. I haven't eaten the "real" fufu, i.e. cassave / yam / plantains (/ corn) crushed with mortar and pestle, but I eat gari regularly. Gari is dried and I think toasted cassava flour. If you mix it with hot water you get a kind of fufu. I don't like the taste of it plain though, so I just add it to soups or stews. The stuff appears to be really fibrous, I don't think it will digest very rapidly, but I really can't say that.

    Btw, when I'm really really hungry, I usually crave cheese, sometimes ice cream.

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  180. ….or chocolate. But I think cheese is my #1 craving when I'm starved.

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  181. subscribing

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  182. The mongongo nut contains very high levels of vitamin E, 565 mg gamma-tocopherol per 100 gram. In the high temperatures of the Kalahari dessert, all this vitamin E in the nut protects its PUFAs from becoming rancid over a very long time. The nut is also rich in minerals, like 527 mg of magnesium per 100 gram. One of the important role of these minerals is that many of them participate in our body's own antioxidant defense system.

    In the mongongo nut there is also some eleostearic acid which in some studies have been found to have strong suppressive effect on tumor growth. The Okinawas also have a small amount of this fatty acid in their diet, which they get from eating bitter gourds.

    One other benefit from vitamin E which Ray Peat talks about is hydrogenation of PUFAs by intestinal bacteria:

    “One possibly crucial protective effect of vitamin E against the polyunsaturated fatty acids that hasn't been explored is the direct destruction of linolenic and linoleic acid. It is known that bacterial vitamin E is involved in the saturation of unsaturated fatty acids, and it is also known that intestinal bacteria turn linoleic and linolenic acids into the fully saturated stearic acid.”
    http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/vitamin-e.shtml

    The !Kung bushmen are the population in the world that have the highest consumption of natural vitamin E and could therefore be a good candidate to have bacterial vitamin E in their gut, but I'm not sure if there are only some specific types of vitamin E that have this effect. Anyway, it is obvious that the !Kung don't store omega 6 in fat cells like what the Americans do. Instead they must effectively burn almost all of the omega 6 they consume, and recycle much of them into saturated and monounsaturated fat.

    There might also be other factors in the !Kung bushmens diet that help them to keep up their metabolism. They are likely to eat more than only the muscle meat from the animals they hunt, so they might, for example, be eating some thyroid. I think we can say that if there is enough protection and the metabolism is working at top level, a high PUFA diet might not necessary hinder someone from being in good health. But the most important reason a low PUFA diet is being advocated, comes from the effect such a diet will have to correct inflammatory PUFA imbalances within the body. Many try to correct this by taking fish oil supplements, but by cutting back on all PUFAs this imbalance will be corrected by itself and will come out with the advantage of providing a higher metabolism and the body will become more resistant to stress. In theory, any inflammatory disease can be cured by such a strategy by only eating very small amounts of PUFA over a certain period of time. After this oil change has taken place and the metabolism is working quite well, I guess being less strict about PUFA will probably work fine for most people.

    Peat also makes a point out of avoiding PUFAs since they tend to accumulate in tissues as we get older. He mentions, for instance, that newborns have less PUFA and have more anti-inflammatory fats.

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  183. I am so frustrated by all of this. I just want to know what should I be eating, and what should I NOT be eating. All this philosophy…. Why should this be so hard?

    I am 58 years old, and need to lose 15-20 pounds which I cannot do. I can HED, low carb, count calories, eat "just the good stuff", no matter, I cannot lose. I am tired all the time. Even walking for 20 minutes exhausts me, and I pay for it for days. I cannot remember when I had a good night's sleep, when I have awakened in the morning and feel refreshed.

    When I was a kid I ate a lot of sugar, but still, I was so SKINNY. Up until I was like 30 years old, I was skinny. Then I had kids.

    I am so frustrated. Again, I do not know why this is so hard.

    I just want to feel good, to feel like I have energy. To drop a few pounds. To feel strong.

    -Peggy

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  184. Nickie said:
    "I am confused… when I was so totally in a groove feeding the family before."

    I couldn't agree more. It's all so totally confusing….

    "Problem is, have you tried caring for four little ones, making everything, for every meal from scratch AND sitting down to read Ray Peat for 1/2 hour??"

    Exactly!

    It's very interesting though cause since I cut out sugar 10 years ago, my health didn't get one bit better. You'd think that if sugar was so evil, I'd have experienced a huge health improvement from it. But I never did. Still, I'm phobic of sugar now and I also used to be addicted to it. So, not sure if there's any returning to sugar for me.

    It's also interesting that Weston A Price wasn't just saying that sugar was the problem. He said the all refined foods were the problem. The people no longer got enough nutrition into their systems due to the low mineral and vitamin content of all refined things including sugar. Poor quality food is what he said was dangerous.

    I can also say that cutting out all sugar and following a strict candida diet does NOT cure candida. Not one bit. Three years of no fruits, sugar, dairy sugar, grains etc did not one good thing for my body.

    I must say that watching this video caused some stress reaction for me. lol. It's so much contradictory information.

    Glucose can come from many sources though? Carbs or fruits for example. Does it have to come from cane sugar?

    Matt do you think it's a good idea to take sugar to improve body temperature?

    This could also explain why I was always skinny in my youth and eating copious amounts of sugar.

    However, how could I possibly addd sugar to my diet? It seems so impossible. Also, no primitive people consumed refined white sugar. They just didn't have access to that.

    Brock:
    Please don't confuse the old USSR's communist dictatorship for democratic socialism. That's the propaganda the capitalists want you all to believe! I'm Swedish where democratic socialism created amazing thriving and safety (6 weeks paid weekation, 1,5 years of paid maternity AND paternity leave, free health care – that is fantastic btw-, free education even at University level, low cost child care, equal pay among genders, super clean environment, cheap reliable high quality public transportation systems, cheap high quality home ownership backed by government safety etc. the list goes on and on.) Communism however is an entirely different beast that I can say no good thing about. It's a dictatorship, that's all it is. It's written into the basis of communism. The dictatorship of the proletariate. And it never goes beyond that. So long as people think that socialism is the same as communism, capitalism will continue to rule.

    Lorelei aka Hawaiigirl:
    I can totally relate to what you're saying. It's so hard to convince people of the wisdom in this when all they see is weight gain that just continues to last…..Very challenging….

    Society is used to admire and see thinness as healthy. So I am being deeply judged by people who just see this diet as a huge disaster. No matter how much I rave about my increased body temperature and normal blood glucose levels and strength in yoga class. They won't hear it. They just want the old skinny Lisa back….I do too but not at any price….

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  185. @ Lisa E

    Social market economy is a more accurate term. Sweden isn't socialist. Socialism is a euphemism for communism or a polemic term used to attack social market economy.

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  186. This would be the reason why the blog is called 180 degree health, it gives Matt the freedom to change his views "180" at free will.

    Next week, do not be surprised if he is off and against the sugar again.

    This freedom of speech is all very entertaining and of course is only one mans big experiement in food.

    There should be a big banner that says this blog is for entertainment purposes only, people are jumping on bandwagons left right and centre here. People have the right to be mad at the constant flip flopping of opinion.

    I did not like the interview with the east west healing. Nothing new was said, it just seemed as though it was a big brown nosing game of " I love your work man and will send people your way".

    I listened to those guys interviews with Ray Peat. I like Ray, his voice is so calming, and I believe all of what he says. I find the east west guy annoying, every time he tried to take a call he was flying off the handle.

    And if he is the face of east west healing, he don't look to be in too great of a shape. He just seems overly buzzed. Maybe the sugar…maybe something "more" for the kick…who knows.

    Peat seems to recommend fruit for sugar, which seems totally plausible.
    The word sugar gives people the impression that sneaking in doughnuts and cakes might be ok. It quite clearly is not. Nor is adding "sugar" going to be healthy.

    I think the thing Matt should stick with is his EAT THE FOOD thing. But in terms of pounding the potatoes or the orange juice I think people need to use common sense and not start having 10 potatoes with 10 spoons of sugar cos it's cool this week.

    Again, all it seems to boil down to is eating foods you like to appetite, that have traditionally been eaten for years, that have no ingredient list and that do not cause you any digestive problems.

    All the extreme diets have their merits. fruitarian, RAW vegan, paleo etc.

    For me it seems that a Paleo/ panu type approach with less restriction on the fruit thing seems to be ideal. Maybe because if I go to the shop to get the foods I want to eat that is the style I always come round too. I think personal instinct here is of best use here.

    For the person stuffing down foul tasting fish oil, common sense would suggest to stop. So please do.

    For people that are suggesting that fruit or sugar gives them more energy than a potato, then maybe it is the potato that is a problem and not that sugar is best.

    One page I like to come back to is the Specific carb diet,

    http://www.breakingtheviciouscycle.info/legal/legal_illegal_a-c.htm

    whose guidelines are very paleoish and basically just comes back to eating nutritious whole food.

    Maybe sugar is ok in fruit, maybe it is just that starch is worse?

    I seem to get dry skin, feel lethargic, get a bit gassy, want to sleep more, have no desire to exercise with too much starch.

    Matt did you not mention that you skin got more moist with more fruit? Maybe its because of less starch?

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  187. Oh and the word sugar should be used a bit more sparingly. If you are suggesting to eat fruit, then say fruit. Sugar can mean anything… For me it suggests the white grainy stuff.

    It's like saying FAT is good… ok so I can eat McDonalds then?

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  188. I agree with Lisa E when she says:

    "It's very interesting though cause since I cut out sugar 10 years ago, my health didn't get one bit better. You'd think that if sugar was so evil, I'd have experienced a huge health improvement from it. But I never did."

    "I can also say that cutting out all sugar and following a strict candida diet does NOT cure candida. Not one bit. Three years of no fruits, sugar, dairy sugar, grains etc did not one good thing for my body."

    This has also been my experience.

    Since eating less starch & more sugar, my skin looks beautiful, I have way more energy and stable blood sugar. I even eat a bit of refined sugar, though I'm not eating quarts of ice cream or anything (not every day anyway :P ) I'm also following other Peaty guidelines to a degree, like eating more protein & taking collagen supplements.

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  189. Matt's skin always gets better when he tries something new.

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  190. @ Hans

    This actually completely true lol! If you go back to around 2008, Matt completed a WHOLE MONTH only eating animal produce. What was the best side effect – incredibly clear skin!

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  191. Anyone with any thoughts on Coconut Palm Sugar?

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  192. i like coconut palm sugar!

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  193. As far as nuts and seeds, it's not just about the PUFAs, but also about lectins. :)
    Melissa

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  194. I bake with coconut palm sugar. I love the taste, and I don't get as logy as I tend to with white sugar. But I can find very little info of it online, except from the Makers of Coconut Palm Sugar.

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