Don Gorske Big Mac Prediction

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Truth be told, I’m a little bit of a Don Gorske groupie. In November, on a trip to visit Aurora’s extended family in Wisconsin, I did go so far as to have a Big Mac in Gorske’s home of Fond Du Lac. I looked for the Mac Daddy, did not see him unfortunately, but took great comedic pleasure in enjoying my first Big Mac in about a year at a location in which perhaps the most prestigious fast food eater on earth has eaten literally thousands of Big Macs.

Gorske, born in 1953, had his first Big Mac in 1972. From that point on, Gorske has had a Big Mac nearly every day – and has now consumed roughly 24,000. He got married at a Mickey D’s. He has saved every receipt. He has had a Big Mac at every Major League baseball stadium – every major Nascar venue, and in all 48 contiguous states. He has an emergency Mac stash in his freezer at home. He even wrote a book about his love for Big Macs, published in 2008 under the name 22,477 Big Macs. I’d like to read it someday, but priced at $50, it’s a tough purchase to justify.

I was first introduced to the Mac Daddy in Morgan Spurlock’s film, Supersize Me, in which Gorske was featured, and his tall, thin body and (very low) cholesterol level revealed. Spurlock included Don more or less as a comedic prop, and then brushes him aside on his journey to proclaim, more or less, that “animal fat kills.” Until Tom Naughton came along and produced the movie Fat Head, such an assertion was largely unchallenged – or at least the assertion that fast food is unhealthy.

But Spurlock does state one thing about Gorske that could be very significant. Gorske rarely eats the fries.

Gorske rarely eats the fries.

Gorske rarely eats the fries.

Now, I can only assume that Gorske is healthy, and that he also is NOT an anomaly (I’m always hesitant to believe in anomalies). The guy, although not exactly as attractive as Mark Sisson, is going on 57, has a full head of un-gray hair, and is 6’2” tall and only 185 pounds. He claims to have a cholesterol level of 140. Every doctor in America would give Gorske a clean bill of health, and few 57-year-olds in the United States could compete with those stats. In the modern world, there are several theories about the greatest dietary and lifestyle evil. A couple months ago I even put up a poll, in which fructose and polyunsaturated fat took Gold and Silver respectively. Let’s examine each of the most prominent theories:

1) The glycemic load theory suggests that the greater the overall load of rapidly-absorbed carbohydrates, the greater the propensity to develop insulin resistance and associated ills. Since 90% of Gorske’s fluid intake is Coca Cola, and each of the 24,000 Big Macs Gorske has consumed are layered with highly-leavened white flour buns, this theory isn’t supported by Gorske’s apparent good health on such fare.

2) Another theory, and one that I’ve long been a proponent of, is that most modern ills can be traced to excessive fructose consumption and refined carbohydrates in general (a hypothesis of T.L. Cleave, John Yudkin, Gary Taubes, and others). This too gets crushed by Gorske’s reaction to his diet, which currently includes tons of Coca Cola and two Mickey D’s Parfaits per day.

3) Another is the cholesterol and saturated fat content of the diet. Gorske obliterates that idea with great ease as well.

4) Then there’s the gluten hypothesis. Gorske has eaten 24,000 gluten-laden sesame seed buns. Sorry wheat haters.

5) Then there’s the belief shared by guys like T. Colin Campbell or Joel Fuhrman that animal protein is harmful. Sorry guys, Gorske gets plenty of that and nearly 100% of his protein is animal-derived.

6) You also have the belief that enzymes found in raw foods determine the overall health and longevity equation. Gorske’s food is virtually enzyme-free.

7) The general prevailing wisdom that most nutritionists would agree on is that the diet should be balanced, varied, and contain lots of fruits and vegetables. Gorske’s is none of the above – except balanced in regard to macronutrients.

8) Another sect believes that lack of omega 3 fatty acids in the diet is responsible for many of the modern world’s health problems. Gorske consumes almost no omega 3, an interesting detail considering that the prevailing nutritional wisdom asserts that humans can’t live without omega 3.

The above are eight common health theories that Gorske more or less refutes. The following are 4 theories of health that Gorske’s diet and lifestyle support:

1) Some scientists believe that eating a low-calorie diet like the French or the Okinawans is the secret to health. Although I believe that eating a low-calorie diet could be one long-term result of health and not a cause, and low-calorie eaters like the citizens of Mexico are some of the world’s most overweight and unhealthy people, Gorske’s diet does support this strongly. Gorske eats far fewer calories than a typical 57-year old American male.

2) Many believe that exercise is the key to health and longevity. Gorske walks, at a reasonable pace, for hours every day and spends quite a bit of time being active and on his feet. Again, I think physical energy and activity is a result of good health, and not a cause, but Gorske’s activity level certainly supports the exercise theory.

3) Many believe that health is really a state of mind and of communion with the food that you eat. Although I have serious doubts that one can turn their food into healthy food simply by believing it is nourishing, Gorske appears to love and enjoy his food in a way that is unprecedented. He certainly doesn’t stress about his food choices, quality, or any other constituent. He just eats what he wants for every meal and enjoys it. This could certainly be one of the keys to Gorske’s success.

4) And finally, one going theory that we’ve recently been exploring in detail is that consuming excess omega 6 polyunsaturated fat – and polyunsaturated fat in general, is the scourge of modern man. Although Ronald McDonald does not report the overall omega 3 and 6 content of Big Macs, it is about as close to zero as one can get without eating a fat-free diet. This would also explain the significance of the fact that Gorske has only eaten McDonald’s fries an estimated ONCE PER MONTH for the last 2 decades. I also believe this is more likely to give Gorske better overall appetite and energy regulation, leading to ingesting an appropriate amount of calories and having great zest for physical activity in addition.

Only one nutrition-oriented person on earth would condone a diet with lots of ice cream (think Gorske’s parfaits), refined sugar and caffeine (found in Gorske’s beverage of choice), plenty of saturated fat, eating an amount of omega 3 and omega 6 fatty acids that mainstream science considers deadly and dangerous, and generally disregarding food quality. That man is Ray Peat. Peat, of course, seems to have had similar results. He is an elderly man with a full head of dark hair, a lean body, and very few health complaints even though he is reported to be in his 80’s.

Anyway, I believe Gorske will continue to baffle the mainstream healthy nutrition and lifestyle status quo. One by one, I predict Gorske to outlive many health gurus. He’ll outlive Dr. Weil. He’ll outlive Ornish. He will outlive “The Bear.” He will outlive Thomas Cowan. He will outlive Dr. Richard Schulze. He will outlive Aajonus Vonderplanitz. He will outlive Schwarzenegger, once the chairman of the President’s Council on Physical Fitness and Sports. He may outlive Michael Pollan. He’s even got a decent shot at Mark Sisson.

My Gorske Big Mac Prediction, at 2 Big Macs per day, will be that he will easily reach 40,000. He has a remote chance at hitting 50,000 – but seeing as he’s not even halfway there, his likelihood at hitting that mark is slim to none. My prediction is that his last Big Mac will be #41,268. Just gonna throw that out there. The 3 reasons I think he’ll get there are:

1) Excellent heredity. Gorske obviously has some good nutritional reserves (grew up in cow country and didn’t eat fast food until age 18 evidently), is in great health and spirits for a 57-year old, and has a lot to screw up health-wise before he dies of old age or a degenerative disease.

2) When it comes to life, and his diet, it appears by all accounts that “he’s lovin’ it!” He doesn’t seem to shed years off of his lifespan counting fat grams, carbs, calories, or micronutrients or wondering about where his food came from.

3) His diet is as low in omega 6 as any modern humans – and omega 3’s as well, which only appear to be helpful to those with excessive omega 6 intake, and in other circumstances show little or no benefit. The basic assertion of Peat is that PUFA intake is by far the most important factor when it comes to low free radical load, inflammation, and health and longevity in general. If Peat is correct, which he might be, Gorske’s got a lot of Big Macs ahead of him.

CLICK HERE TO SEE GORSKE’S ESTIMATED NUTRITIONAL ANALYSIS
*Note, the saturated fat content seems to be off in my software (should be more like 50 grams I believe), and look to the total PUFA content to estimate his total omega 6 and omega 3 consumption. 

145 Comments

  1. The vegetable oil in the bun and 'special sauce' only add up to 2 grams per day of PUFA's. Thought it would be more…

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  2. That data seems off…one of the reasons I don't eat corn fed beef is that it has plenty of O6!

    And maybe it's because you are a dude, but Gorske ain't got nothing on Mark Sisson.

    Good genes matter lots. Many my relatives eat varying amounts of terrible things and live and look great until their 90s. In fact, most of my grandpas calories come from beer and he has a full head of dark hair at 80.

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  3. Corn fed beef has very little O6. Whoever led you to believe that was incorrect.

    I have argued in the past that the fact that the past generation lived in better health than the current generation is actually evidence that what the older generation did is unhealthy and screwed up the younger generation – not the other way around.

    Instead, this post is a half-entertaining inquiry into why Don Gorske, eating what many would consider the unhealthiest diet in the world, has effortless good health. Maybe there is no reason for it. Maybe he is an anomaly. But it is interesting that his diet and lifestyle is in exact accordance with Ray Peat, who many that spend time at this blog respect very highly.

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  4. German McD site says a Big Mac contains 11g of fat 5 of them saturated. So their must be a decent amount of Pufas in it…

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  5. Hooray for a fellow German!
    Well whatever, we better find out how much grams of PUFAs in there exactly, thsi should be crucial for Matt's hypothesis. Wouldn't be anything above 3 or 4g of PUFAs already be too much for are true PUFA-restricted diet?

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  6. Well, this is a perfect case in point about the unreliability of nutrition information provided by our beloved Fast Food restaurants.

    My software was a $300 purchase, and claims a Big Mac has .7 grams per Big Mac. Nutritiondata.com is my secondary source, and reports the exact same.

    But both report more total fat per Big Mac than can be found by totaling SFA, MUFA, PUFA, and trans – so something is missing.

    It could be PUFA, in which case the theory would be more or less over at that point (although Gorske still would be consuming far less than the national average). The special sauce, from what I understand, is half ketchup and half thousand island dressing, which would make the sauce about 20% PUFA, perhaps supplying those extra 4 grams per burger that Mike points out.

    This would leave Gorske getting about half the national average of omega 6 if that were the case.

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  7. Then again Mike's reference shows much higher fat, calories, and protein for a Big Mac than standard references. When they're all so different, I guess there's not much of a conversation to be had about Gorske's PUFA intake.

    But even by the highest estimate it's at most, half of the average American intake.

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  8. Entertaining post, Matt. How about that Tom Naughton? Didn't he skip the soda while eating nothing but burgers and fries resulting in an improvement in health? I wonder what the rest of Gorske's diet consists of? Maybe he's eating low-calorie vegan for the rest of his meals. This would explain his extraordinary health!

    Kidding aside, I think there are certainly a lot of genetic freaks out there who do just fine on a junk-food diet. That doesn't mean their kids will have the same experience, or their kids' kids, for that matter. Some questions we could ask Mr. Gorske about his health that mainstream medicine doesn't consider:

    1) Do you have any muscle tension day to day?
    2) How's your digestion?
    3) How are your teeth? Let's see them chompers.

    Of course, what I'm getting at here is that there are far more important aspects of health than cholesterol level, weight, or whether or not somebody has grey hair. I know you know that, Matt, and I'm surprised that you would use such poor markers of health as supportive evidence!

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  9. I am still voting for anomaly. You just can't draw any conclusions with one person's diet. I remember hearing about a centenarian who said she ate 2 prepackaged chocolate pies(you know the ones shaped like half moons that are full of trans fat) every morning for breakfast. I think it would be foolish to try to argue that they were the reason for her longevity.

    I think what it shows is that certain people have longevity genes that just can't be damaged. Not everyone's health is lifestyle related.

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  10. So essentially the takeaway is that excess refined omega-6 oils are the devil and everything else is negotiable? This could make sense because if you take away refined veggie oils, then you take away just about all candy and baked goods at the convenience store.
    Do you think it's prudent that if you could tell one thing about diet (say you're talking to a family member), would it be to avoid refined veggie oils and from there you should be fine? I think that message has a chance of working. Eat chicken breast, egg whites, brown rice, yams, broccoli, apples, etc. doesn't work for most. It has done wonders for bodybuilders but most can't maintain it. Thanks, I feel another huge comment board coming.

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  11. Oh I think pigmentation of the hair and thickness of the hair are both very prominent indicators of a healthy metabolism. They are certainly strong indicators of the rate of aging. But most people assume that Coke and Big Macs lead to weight gain and high cholesterol. In Gorske's case, it led to neither, nor did it lead to overeating or sedentary behavior.

    I don't think Naughton had many fries, keeping his carb intake to about 100g per day.

    They are interesting thoughts, and ones that get people super riled up. As you know, I'm not one to write off Gorske as a "freak" who is "killing himself" as most nutritionists do in the face of all their theories being challenged.

    Instead, I dare to ask if there are actually lessons to be learned here from the healthy guy with "the most unhealthy diet in the world."

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  12. There are plenty of researchers out there too that think diet doesn't mean squat. Perhaps the lesson from Grandma and her chocolate pies is that if you have longevity genes, you can't screw 'em up by eating unhealthy food. Nothing in my own experience and research suggests that anything is MORE important than diet in the maintenance of health, but I'm certainly willing to open up the floor to guys like Russ Farris who think germs cause all disease, and eating sterilized McDonald's food would be a reasonable way to protect oneself from heart disease-triggering bacteria like chlamydia pneumoniae.

    What I like about Gorske is that he forces everyone to question everything they think they know about health, longevity, and a healthy diet. And I've been surprised EVERY TIME that I did this for myself – question everything I believe for example.

    Mark-
    I think Peat's message is that if you eat a low PUFA diet, you are well-protected from many things and can get away with being pretty relaxed about your diet otherwise. Maybe this is true. Maybe it's not. But it's worth some investigation no doubt.

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  13. I'm with you Matt. I think that "anomalies" or outliers have to be seem as prof that the "theory" is not so.

    Which then should always bring up more questions.

    Curious how someone would fair in comparison eating only a Mac Salads.

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  14. OK let me try again.

    …to be seem as proof that the…

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  15. What I'd like to see is a square-off between burgers and fries vs. burgers and coke. In other words, low PUFA/high-sugar vs. High-PUFA/ low-sugar. We know what happens when you put it all together though. You get a fatty liver and become very ill like Spurlock. But what happens when you omit either PUFA or fructose? This would help solve the big question of "What is the greatest dietary evil?" that I threw out a few months ago.

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  16. Whats funny Matt is that Mac D's may the perfect place to run such an experiment, because you can keep the variables so controlled.

    Ahh, the benefits of industrialized foods.

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  17. From this point forward I would appreciate the title, "Master of the Obvious", thank you.

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  18. How do you know Ray Peat doesn't dye his hair?

    Grey hair is a mixture of age, heredity, and health status. Everyone I know who has greyed early has a close relative who has as well. They may have been able to slow or quicken the process via their overall health, but having grey hair isn't necessarily pathological.

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  19. A low metabolism is synonymous with graying and falling hair – one reason why starving people often suffer from both.

    In my own experience, I induced both graying hair and falling hair during various phases of my life. In my early 20's I had quite a bit of rogue gray hair. A decade later I have none.

    Graying and balding is certainly not a sign of getting younger and healthier, but you are certainly right, there's nothing pathological about it. But it is a sign of aging nonetheless.

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  20. Hi Matt, I asked Doc Harris and I want to ask you too. What is your take on HCG (human chorionic gonadotrophin)? It's a diet fad, but is there some baby in this bathwater. The claim is HCG facilitates the release of stored fat for fuel by stimulating leptin and improving metabolism (which when coupled with a low calorie/low fat diet allows for profound fat mobilization). There is supporting research on HCG's interaction with leptin but I'm not adept enough to draw conclusions. Personally, I have two friends taking HCG who have both lost over 100 pounds in about 6 months. Yeah, they are on a 500 calorie low fat diet -but without discomfort. It does seem like their stored fat is readily feeding them. I thought this kind of 'starvation' would be disastrous for them and was totally against it, but I have to admit, they look great and do not seem to be losing muscle mass. I am not overweight myself, but I am intrigued. What do you think? Any baby in there? -S.

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  22. Peat is 73/74, and while you're picture's not current, he does look healthy.

    Isn't grey hair from iron overload?

    Peat's right about everything. We've got to make our theories fit our observations, rather than the other way around. I like where you're going with this Matt. There are plenty of us who are doing great on the sugar/Peat style diet.

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  23. I play it safe. I order the double-quarter-pounder with cheese (sometimes known as the Royale with Cheese) and skip both the fries and the Coke.

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  24. Did you guys ever take a look at centenarians? (from Wiki)

    Jeanne Calment -She smoked until the age of 117, only five years before her death.[14][15][16] Calment smoked from the age of 21 (1896), though according to an unspecified source, Calment smoked no more than two cigarettes per day.[17] She ascribed her longevity and relatively youthful appearance for her age to olive oil, which she said she poured on all her food and rubbed onto her skin, as well as a diet of port wine, and nearly one kilo of chocolate eaten every week.[10]

    Shigechiyo Izumi – Izumi's wife died at the age of 90.[citation needed] He drank brown sugar shōchū (a Japanese alcoholic beverage often distilled from barley or rice), and took up smoking at age 70.

    Sarah Knauss – In 1995, when asked if she enjoyed her long life, Knauss said matter-of-factly: "I enjoy it because I have my health and I can do things." Her passions were said to be watching golf on television, doing needlepoint, and nibbling on milk chocolate turtles, cashews, and potato chips.

    That would be number 1, 2 and 3, all-time…those folks did everything wrong…it's a wonder they lived a day past 115! ;-)

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  25. Matt,

    Another great blog post.

    If I had to choose, I would rather have the burger with the coke instead of the fries. Recently, i have been enjoying a burger from mcdonalds or wendys at least once a week with no negative effects on my health or physique. I have also been drinking 2 liters of Kool-aid every day during my workouts for the past couple of weeks, and have noticed nothing but benefits.

    I agree with you, actually enjoying your food greatly and not worrying about the health effects, could lead to better health. Stress is the leading cause of illness.

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  26. Concerning grey hair, Ray Peat said that applying DHEA to the grey hair actually caused it to return to its normal color. So, it might be the lowering of this hormone that causes the greying.

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  27. When Peat lowered his iron consumption and upped his copper, he noticed that his eyebrows turned from grey to black.

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  28. I'm gonna have to get around to reading Peat one day.

    I'll be the last guy on earth to say the veggie oils aren't bad for you, but I'm still not willing to admit that sugar is good (or even neutral) as to health. I'm all too aware of both its addictive power and the effect is has on the health of animals in lab-controlled trials.

    I think they're both Devils. Arguing over who the bigger devil is is like arguing whether it's worse to be shot through the heart or stabbed through the eye.

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  29. one in a hundred.

    …lucky guy.

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  30. Well, if Spurlock is right about how long it takes to ferment a Big Mac, maybe Gorske is germ-free? I'm half kidding here, but I can't find any Big Macs as a prebiotic type studies, so I don't really know which half.

    What do you think of gut-bacteria in connection to diet? I just found this study on Matt Metzgar's blog

    http://www.pnas.org/content/101/44/15718.long
    ———————————
    We found that conventionalization of adult germ-free (GF) C57BL/6 mice with a normal microbiota harvested from the distal intestine (cecum) of conventionally raised animals produces a 60% increase in body fat content and insulin resistance within 14 days despite reduced food intake.
    ==========================

    I guess germ-free mice suddenly exposed to even "good" bacteria would see those bacteria as an invader, and the infection might explain the insulin resistance.

    Maybe Gorske isn't germ-free so much as he's germ-constant.

    I wonder what starving followed by refeeding did to the gut bacteria population in that Ancel Keys starvation study?

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  31. "although not exactly as attractive as Mark Sisson"

    i'm sorry, but mark sisson's golden locks CREEP ME THE HELL OUT! he is trying way too hard to look young. his body, etc are excellent, but i really wish he would quit with the hair dying – it ages him, makes him look a bit foolish, & i am sure hair dying is NOT very primal! it's kinda like the hollywood aging actresses who keep getting "work" done on their faces, & wear youngster clothes, but aren't foolin' anyone but themselves. age gracefully, mark! that's what grok woulda done! i keep bookmarking his blog because i like it, but then the hair creeps me out & i stop going there for a while….
    BTW i am female, 46, letting the gray ("silver") come in & get lots of compliments on it…..hubbie has a thick head of black & gray hair (mixed) which is awesomely handsome.

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  32. I have been drinking alot of beer lately, eating alot before i drink…. starch, saturated fat, protein, natural sugars…

    since last year, after i drink, i don't eat anything fried… no french fries, nothing fried… not even salad dressings when i go out…

    It hasn't been a problem for me to stay between 161 and 163 pounds since i gave up dieting.

    I can't wait to see what happens when i really stay away from PUFA's…. yyyyeeeeeeehaaaaa!!!

    troy

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  33. My old man died with a full head of black hair.

    He was 63, a diabetic, and the proximate cause was heart attack.

    I believe there is a strong epigenetic element at play, here: Gorske may well have inherited a strong reserve of health, as his family, per Dr. Price, has not arrived at their 'Seventh Generation' of degeneration. Gorske may well be doing genetic damage that won't show up until later in his childrens' lives, if he has any.

    I have known cancer patients who looked and acted relatively healthy until they succumbed to the disease.

    Not everybody's health or lack thereof, manifests in obvious ways. My father clearly had excellent genetics for hair and pigmentation (as did his mother, who died at only 72) but was genetically vulnerable heart and lung-wise to smoking and a diet high in sugar, PUFA.

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  34. Personally, I have two friends taking HCG who have both lost over 100 pounds in about 6 months. Yeah, they are on a 500 calorie low fat diet -but without discomfort. It does seem like their stored fat is readily feeding them. I thought this kind of 'starvation' would be disastrous for them and was totally against it, but I have to admit, they look great and do not seem to be losing muscle mass. I am not overweight myself, but I am intrigued. What do you think? Any baby in there? -S.

    I read about this diet years ago in a book called The Steak Lovers Diet which devoted a special chapter to it.

    Just remember that all diets are ultimately high fat diets, as long as your body is able to properly mobilize your fat stores. If so your body will simply make up for what it is lacking by burning fat. So even if your friends, for example, attempt a low fat diet it really isn't under normal circumstances, much to their chagrin if they ever thought it through logically.

    I do not know enough about the diet to make an intelligent comment, but I have a friend who is using it, and has made some significant health improvements (like being able to tolerate a lot more carbs) that aren't necessarily attributable to weight loss. Obviously she is very happy and as a result has softened her stance as low carb being the default diet for everyone.

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  35. I play it safe. I order the double-quarter-pounder with cheese (sometimes known as the Royale with Cheese) and skip both the fries and the Coke.

    LOL! I never could stand the Big Mac, but a double quarter pounder with cheese??? Now thems some good eatin! :-)

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  36. @Matt Stone

    Great entertaining contrarian piece to stoke the thought processes. Still, I find it hard to compare Gorski and Peat. Outside of the OJ and refined sugar ice cream (I still don't know what folks find wrong with ice cream per se – I love the homemade stuff) Peat's diet looks like a "standard" low in PUFA traditional diet, at least from my vantage point. What am I missing?

    @Will

    You are killing it. Love it! Though I am a little disappointed with Jeanne Calment, since according to one doctor in my upcoming tobacco report you can smoke ten of the worst kind of cigarettes a day and live in great health if you have an adequate diet.

    Which reminds me, I wonder what brand the Kitavans or the Masai smoke? :-)

    @JT

    Frug them fries. I'm with you on that one. I once ate at Whole Foods for several months exclusively from their prepared foods section and saw a noticeable decline in my health. Only later did I discover they douse everything liberally with canola oil.

    @Half Navajo

    Ditto for the beer. We will have to knock back a few cold ones at a 180 degree get together (when I'm not drinking single malt scotch or wine).

    @Octagonian

    Not everybody's health or lack thereof, manifests in obvious ways. My father clearly had excellent genetics for hair and pigmentation (as did his mother, who died at only 72) but was genetically vulnerable heart and lung-wise to smoking and a diet high in sugar, PUFA.

    Good point though I doubt smoking per se was the problem.

    Still wondering about Peat's very high hairline I saw in a more recent picture of him. Is it the refined sugar or something that he was born with? Inquiring minds want to know.

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  37. I don't know about anyone else here, but if I eat conventionally prepared fries, I am noticably under the weather for about two days afterward. (Now the real question is how intelligent can I possibly be if I keep eating them?!?) But really, deep fried foods are the one thing I try to pass on when I go out, not only because I know they're loaded with rancid PUFAs, but because it just makes me feel like I was hit by a bus if I eat them.

    Of course, I haven't drank a soda since 2007 and I don't even remotely want one. So count me in for a double quarter pounder with cheese, and no fries or drink, please. ;)

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  38. For all you sugar-eating Peat advocates. I think this is quite an interesting list, even though I'm not sure how much of this is actually proven:
    Link

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  39. Oh, and one theory I have about these centurians who've had some unhealthy habits: you have to factor in the generational effect. Anyone who is a centurian now grew up before processed foods were mainstream. We can't possibly know how this affected their early development and their potential for a long, healthy life. Someone growing up now may have only a very remote possibility for replicating the modern centurian if they were undernourished during gestation and childhood, and especially if their parents suffered the same beginnings.

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  40. Elizabeth, life expectancy has gone up since the advent of processed foods. So, maybe processed foods aren't necessarily always bad.

    Maybe we should seriously consider Matt's idea that, "the past generation lived in better health than the current generation is actually evidence that what the older generation did is unhealthy and screwed up the younger generation – not the other way around."

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  41. Michael,

    What type of diet do you advocate as being healthy. I read on your website that you are a scientist, with an interest in traditional diets as well as some of Peat's ideas.

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  42. "Elizabeth, life expectancy has gone up since the advent of processed foods. So, maybe processed foods aren't necessarily always bad."

    Correlation isn't causation. During the same period we have seen major advances in traumatic medical care, vaccines, workplace safety, etc. Industrialization of food could still have a negative effect that was simply less negative than all the positives out there.

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  43. Oh man you guys are the best. Thanks for humoring me and coming up with some good discush.

    I agree that hair color and thickness is not everything. Watched a 62-year old die of cancer in June with hair twice as thick as mine.

    Ancel Keys loved his olive oil too – and pasta. Died in the triple digits – making him an extreme rarity in the health and nutrition field. It's usually only the chocolate-nibbling chain smokers that make it to that age and beyond.

    Elizabeth – You are certainly right to bring up the heredity and childhood beginnings factor. I think this is probably the most important factor – but note it is determined by diet as well.

    Brock-
    I too think there is simply no way in hell that refined sugar can be a net positive. I am a big fan of Nancy Appleton, which Madmuhh linked to. I too would avoid both the Coke and the fries, but would still love to see the two squared off against each other.

    Would love to see smoking thrown in the PUFA and refined sugar study as well, to see if one truly can smoke and eat low PUFA and/or low-sugar without negative consequence. There is no doubt that the epidemiological correlation between smoking and longevity is strong. In Ancel Keys's 7 countries study, hilariously, there was a strong association between smoking and LOW incidence of heart disease (yet smoking has taken the fall for everything shy of global warming in the last few decades).

    On HCG-
    The obese don't need HCG to lose body fat without lean losses or metabolic slowdown or hunger on 500 calories per day, but the diet has to be just right. I was shocked to learn of a study that had consistent results with 187 obese subjects in 1931 that Keys made reference to – many who lost over 100 pounds without a single gram of nitrogen loss and normal metabolic rates even after 260 days on 500 calories per day. Challenged some of my beliefs in a big way, but I reviewed the study and it was legit enough to beg someone to be a guinea pig. Let you know how it turns out.

    The key is of course getting adequate calories to the lean tissues. Anything that can trigger enough fat loss to satiate the lean tissues will work, but most strategies don't trigger enough fat loss to make up for a calorie deficit, lean tissue is lost, and metabolism slows down. But the only thing that matters is whether or not the lean tissues are receiving adequate fuel. Whether than fuel comes from food or body fat makes no difference as long as the lean tissues are well-fed. Perhaps HCG or other supplements could help, but Evans and Strang, authors of this 1931 study needed no such tricks.

    Reply
  44. Cusick, you said, "Correlation isn't causation". I agree with you completely, and that was my point. We shouldn't be so quick to blame all of our problems on processed food or sugar just because they have increased in the past 100 years. A lot of other things have changed too.

    Reply
  45. Interesting info on how the "finishing" feed effects the PUFA percentage and makeup in beef.

    http://beef.unl.edu/beefreports/200939.shtml

    A quote of particular interest,

    "Polyunsaturated fatty acids have weak double bonds between carbon atoms, making the molecule easier to oxidize. Oxidation of lipids is directly proportional to the oxidation of myoglobin pigment, which produces undesirable color and rancid flavor. Consequently, beef quality is compromised when high oxidation occurs."

    Reply
  46. there are genetic freaks, there is no doubt about that…heredity and previous generation's food consumption play a HUGE role in your current well being, disease potential and body figure/fat…

    i think what matt is trying to do with his blog(and correct me if i am wrong) is figure out how to reprogram and readapt a shitty body(low metabolism, bad genes etc..) through working the metabolism….

    I think i am finally "getting it" in that the HED and overfeeding with the right food provides the body and lean tissue with a surplus of nutrients equating to a homeostasis in the body and a nitrogen balance… once this is achieved, one may well be able to lose weight at a rapid pace cycling calories in a feast/famine sort of way gievn that lean tissue is provided with what it needs…

    so the question is how do you know when the body is ready, and how do you know whether you are providing your lean tissue with what it needs when it comes time to "lose weight"

    Reply
  47. Malpaz,
    In the ideal situation, when your body is healthy you will not need to try to lose weight. As long as you are eating a healthy diet and living a healthy active lifestyle your body will naturally adjust to a healthy weight. According to the people here, trying to force your body to be a certain weight by dieting is what causes the problem.

    Reply
  48. Questions for Matt/whomever:

    Jenny asked this but I never saw a response so Ill ask again: Can someone explain nitrogen balance, why its important, and what exactly changes it?

    Someone above said that when you are losing fat weight, that any diet you are eating is a high fat diet because your body is burning its own fat stores. My question is, how accurate of a statement is that? Is there any difference between how your body metabolizes fat that you have eaten compared to fat that is stored? What is the fat content of our fat (as in how much of it is SFA,MUFA,PUFA?)?
    AV always said that your body stores a lot of toxins in your fat, if that is true (anyone know?), how would these supposed "toxins" affect how the stored fat is burned?

    Reply
  49. Da'droooo,

    Proteins in your body require nitrogen. So if you piss less nitrogen than you eat, that means your body is building up protein tissues (muscles, organs, etc.). If you piss more nitrogen than you eat your body is breaking down protein tissues (muscles, organs, etc.). If you piss exactly as much nitrogen as you eat, you're in balance.

    Reply
  50. im pretty sure the nitrogen balance cannot occur without fats and carbohydrates too…which is maybe a reason the the HED diet is good

    Reply
  51. Some other things to ponder about Gorske's health:

    1) Many folks who get obese and diabetic tend to drink a lot of soda. Jimmy Moore ballooned up to 300+ lbs. drinking a dozen 8 oz. sodas/day. Gorske isn't slurping down Big Gulps as far as I can tell.

    2) Some people have a predisposition to diabetes and overweight due to the diet their mother was on while pregnant as well as being raised on poor foods during the developmental years. (Did someone say, "Oprah?"). We'd have to consider Gorske's upbringing if we're going to use him as any kind of example of health.

    3) I know you believe that diet is king, Matt, but there is a lot of evidence that genetics play a huge role. Whether diet/health affects genetics or genetics affect diet/health is certainly a debatable subject. But the point is that genetics do play a role, no matter how you slice it. How about that fatty Zucker rat? Obesity strictly from genetics:

    Pharmacological and dietary manipulations … and replacement of dietary long-chain with medium-chain triglycerides … succeed to varying extents in reducing or obliterating obese rats' hyperphagia [overeating]. Jejunoileal bypass surgery, a treatment producing both decreased food intake and malabsorption of ingested nutrients, results in smaller, lighter fa/fa rats (Greenwood et al., 1982). However, in those studies in which it was assessed, such treatments do not normalize the obese body composition. Indeed, even lifelong food restriction, while decreasing body weight, results in obese rats whose body composition is approximately 50 percent lipid as compared to under 20 percent in lean littermates (Cleary et al., 1980). Clearly, the obese Zucker rat's hyperphagia is not necessary for expression of the obese syndrome.

    Reply
  52. Is there an easy way to test nitrogen content of your urine? Like a strip test or something?

    Reply
  53. There really are "outliers". This guy makes the news and gets noticed because he's an outlier. He's not typical.
    And a total cholesterol of 140? That's a little low in my book. The sweet spot for longevity is between 200 and 250. That's what our older citizens have. The ones with super low cholesterols die off first.
    And 57 is young. Remember Jim Fixx was the picture of health in his 50's, what with all that running, until he dropped dead during his daily jog. We might read about this one day too. His story isn't over…

    Reply
  54. Matt, in regards to your answer above to my HCG question: "You tease!!"
    Are you actually experimenting with this now, and when will you be reporting?…s,

    Reply
  55. Michael, you made me think of something. One of the best actors and most gorgeous man to ever live, Marcello Mastroianni, smoked 50 cigarettes every single day for 50 years and still lived until 72 (and no, did not die of liver cancer.)
    My grandpa smoked most of his life too and lived well into his 70s. My Mom said when he was younger he was a very heavy smoker. He would use only one match a day. He would light one cigarette in the morning right when he got out of bed and would just chain smoke the whole day, lighting every new cigarette with the cigarette before.

    Reply
  56. Nathan, great study and I'm mostly saying that cause it's from the University I go to :p

    JT, there is more than just correlative evidence showing the dangers of both sugar and excess omega 6. oh and by the way, you're just a hater lol

    Reply
  57. Could it just be low calories that is keeping this man lean and healthy?No one seems to be addressing this part of his diet.It seems that the damage from sugar comes when your consumption gets out of control and you start buying the 3 liter sodas since 2 liters doesn't cut it anymore.

    Reply
  58. Wolf, I think you are right about that the leaner someone is, the more carbs they can handle. This is pretty well known among strength coaches. He is active and stays fairly lean by not letting his calories get to high, so he doesn't suffer a lot of the negative consequences.

    Reply
  59. The main think I like about this story is that it points out that there is a lot more to health than diet. I have known a few of the gurus in the fitness biz, and none of them are as dogmatic about diet as their followers are. Of course they don't usually admit this in public because it would hurt them financially. One well know diet guru with a PHD told me that he really didn't believe that diet was that important for health anymore, and that he focuses on other things for his own health. But, he still makes all of his money off of his diet system.

    Reply
  60. Wolf, I've always believed that sugar consumption leads to more sugar consumption and increased calorie intake. This doesn't happen to Gorske though. Why?

    Ryan, you know that I'm in full agreement, and feel like heredity is much more important than our own personal diets. But I wanna konw how we changed our heredity and what we can do to fix it. I wanna know why Jimmy Moore became an out-of-control soda drinker and gained tons of weight while Gorske does not. It would be interesting if having a high metabolism due to good heredity – and maintaining it due to low PUFA consumption was the difference between someone who gains weight eating sugar, and one who does not. That's kinda what I'm opening up to consider here.

    And no. I can't prove Gorske is healthy. He could drop dead tomorrow. What I do know is that he does not appear to show any signs of metabolic syndrome – which most would tie to fast food and fast food like products, lots of fructose, etc.

    But let's say that we give the Gorske diet to 20 people. 19 get sick and fat, while Gorske does not. What we should study is why Gorske doesn't. What makes him special? Is he really a metabolic miracle? Or does it have something to do with his omega 6 intake, his attitude, his upbringing, and so on?

    Malpaz-
    You do need carbs or extra protein for the protein sparing effect. It's hard to maintain nitrogen balance otherwise. And yes, being in nitrogen balance means that you are not losing muscle mass. Most people on HED will be in Positive nitrogen balance for a while before leveling off to balance. But the key to weight loss is staying in nitrogen balance while weight is lost. Few achieve this, but it has been done. And I wouldn't say I'm full board on the calorie-cycling thing. Most will lose body fat over time after basal temp rises to the ideal range. I will always be looking for short-cuts though.

    HCG person-
    Sorry. I will be discussing this. Be patient.

    Anonymous with the eatwild link: Yes, it's true, grassfed beef contains a tiny trace more omega 3, vitamin E, etc. The actual fat itself does not contain less omega 6. My point is that those differences are extremely minor and insignificant in the big picture of things. It is given too much emphasis, and the article contains the same crap that most do, stating that "walnuts have a lot of omega 3," which is misleading. Soybean oil has a lot of omega 3 also.

    I argue that the real emphasis should be put on total PUFA consumption, in which case there is no difference between grassfed and grainfed beef other than the fact that grainfed beef has more total fat.

    Droo-
    I don't know about AV and his toxins. I think the therapeutic benefit to his overfeeding comes from the rise in metabolism – -which is also more likely to result in better toxin excretion.

    Reply
  61. I loved this post. As for bringing Centarian's into it, I actually lived with one for five years in high school. (My grandfather.) His father lived to be over a hundred as well, so I think it was mostly genetic. However, this , doesn't worry about stuff=long-lived is BS. My grandfather was the biggest worry wort ever. He droves us nuts with it. I always chalked his long life span up to his valetudinarianism, not to any hippyish ideals about enjoying life to the fullest. He worked his ass off for 80 years and then he spent the last 20 or so worrying and nagging us.

    And all this from the number one "get more sleep" It's all stress" preacher in this here choir.

    Reply
  62. Well… that's quiet interessting but actually i have a hard time seeing it… wonder what others have to say..

    Reply
  63. Also if you look at the macronutrients it seems to be in line with asian eating.Not high calorie,lots of carbohydrate and with some meat and the fat that accompanies it.

    Pro-60
    fat-70
    carbs-310

    Matt,and everyone else here,who is down for a month long test of the "Gorske theory"

    Reply
  64. The sesame seeds on the hamburger buns contain some lignans which are suggested to have antioxidative properties and inhibit lipid peroxidation;
    http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/128/6/1018
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19951001

    Another property of some of the sesame lignans is that they have the ability to increase the oxidation of fatty acids. This would mean that a higher proportion of the omega 6 will be directly used as energy instead of being stored in adipose tissue or turned into AA.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19367107

    Sesamin and other contents of the sesame seed like sterols, also have cholesterol lowering effects
    http://www.jlr.org/cgi/reprint/32/4/629
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17943496

    One of the lignans, sesamin, is an inhibitor of the delta-5 desaturation enzyme, and if enough is consumed, the omega 6 linoleic acids are less likely to turn into arachidonic acid. Instead dihomo-gamma-linolenic acid (DGLA) will accumulate and displace some of the arachidonic acid in the cells.
    http://sci.tech-archive.net/Archive/sci.med.nutrition/2007-11/msg00093.html

    I'm not sure if the small amount of sesame seeds on the hamburger buns can give any significant effect or how much of them are digested, but since Gorske eats many hamburger buns over a long time, maybe the sesame lignans accumulate in his body and show effects, like give him low cholesterol levels.

    Since sesame seed or sesame oil have a high omega 6 content, though they will not lead to AA overload, I think the health effects of ingesting them are favourable if the diet is already high in omega 6. If the diet is low in omega 6, the delta-5 desaturase enzyme should be active, since this enzyme is necessary to make Mead acid.

    I think one of the reason why olive oil might be healthy, could have to do with the fact that olive oil has about ten times as much oleic acid than linoleic acid. Since Mead acid is synthesised from oleic acid by the same enzymes that synthesise AA from linoleic acid and EPA from ALA, oleic acid has a suppressive effect of the desaturation of EFA. There are studies which show that when mice and humans are fed olive oil, the concentration of AA and EPA decreases.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19924462
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15039655
    http://msngroup.aimoo.com/TheScientificDebateForum-/nutrition.msnw-action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=2381&LastModified=4675675200212336595.htm

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  65. Dave, RN,

    Jim Fixx had total blood cholesterol levels over 250 mg/dl.

    I did a quick google search, finding several sources.

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  66. so basically y'all are saying we should be downing mcd's and any other junk food we want b/c it's not really affecting our health anyway? i haven't had mcd's in 5 years and am proud that my 5 year old doesn't even know what the place is. is it all a conspiracy by the health food freaks to scare us into believing that anything but their food will make us sick? i'm half kidding, but think about how fast and furious the health food movement has ignited in such a relatively short amount of time.

    if i even decided to believe that mcdonald's was okay to eat then i would be able to go out of the house more knowing i had something i could pick up to eat that would fuel me and be closer than whole foods that is 25 minutes away, lol.

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  67. so has anyone ordered a Big Mac w/ coke and a parfait this week?

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  68. hahah…. i remember reading the HCG diet book… by what his name… the whistle blower…

    can't wait to see what happens matt!!!

    troy

    Reply
  69. Check out these dietary reccomendations from Dr. Ellington Darden. He is a famous exercise physiologist that is one of the proponents of HIT. I think he would approve of the Gorske diet as being very healthy. You can see it here on pg229, and he also mentions the ratios needed to bring starving children from Africa back to health.

    http://books.google.com/books?id=m-E_ryTuJ5kC&pg=PA229&lpg=PA229&dq=ellington+darden+protein&source=bl&ots=eLi9U1Dz7r&sig=w5N6z57MgTjHDUxbpMUmd5CCUQE&hl=en&ei=YfuWS4DcE4_T8AaF_tUe&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBMQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=ellington%20darden%20protein&f=false

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  70. @JT

    Concerning grey hair, Ray Peat said that applying DHEA to the grey hair actually caused it to return to its normal color. So, it might be the lowering of this hormone that causes the greying.

    How do you apply this to hair?

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  71. Fjoraro-
    Thanks for the sermon. I hated for my message of late on omega 6 to be so oversimplified, as the fate of omega 6 is largely controlled by delta 5-desaturase – so ingestion of LA is only part of the story. I mentioned this in a podcast, hypothesizing that lots of fructose + LA = Perfect nutritional storm (similar to Barry Sears calling a high starch diet + LA = Perfect nutritional storm).

    But I do have my doubts that the quarter teaspoon of sesame seeds in Gorske's diet is able to perform such magic.

    Very interesting insights on olive and sesame oil though.

    Team Smith-
    I wouldn't rush to Mickey D's for health reasons.

    Sorry no cokes, Big Macs, or parfaits for me lately. Don't have a McD's where I live. I basically live in Weston A. Price Foundation/Mercola utopia. Only 1 restuarant in town serves beef that is NOT local and grassfed (incidentally, that 1 place has by far the best burger in town).

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  72. Thanks for that JT. That's one thing I liked about Keys book was the discussion of protein. The most important factor in maintaining nitrogen balance in a lean person was calories. Even with high protein intake, a lean person on a low-calorie diet would be in nitrogen deficit.

    However, with calorie intakes above 3,000 and higher, nitrogen balance was maintained, in a full-sized adult male, with as little as 30 grams of protein per day.

    I think that the HED, during the overfeeding stage, is definitely better without much meat at all. There's simply no way to eat a supercaloric diet without eating too much protein. I mentioned this in 180 Diabetes, and stated that "potatoes are protein-dense" which drew some raised eyebrows. But at 4,000 calories per day, if you were to eat nothing but potatoes, protein intake would be 80 grams of protein.

    With such a caloric intake, getting adequate protein is a total non-issue.

    Then again, the milk diet seems like a damn fine way to get the desired results of the HED, but is extremely high in protein.

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  73. Something interesting to report on body temp (sorry to go off topic) went out last night with some friends and gorged on baby back ribs, sweet potato's, skins with cheese and sour cream cream, corn with butter plus a load of beers.

    Felt noticeably hotter while sleeping and had pretty disturbed restless sleep (not surprised with the amount of food I left my body to digest) so woke up this morning and took my standard underarm temp and it went up from about 35.6 (which has been pretty consistent for a week at least) to a solid 36.1 degrees Celsius.

    This got me thinking, do you think overfeeding in this manner will shunt up body temperature permanently or is it a temporary adjustment the body makes to compensate for the high intake by revving metabolism? Obviously I can't imagine these gorges are great for the body but once in a while they may work to kick a sluggish metabolism into gear, or at least the body out of starvation mode.

    Just a thought.

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  74. Matt

    "Most will lose body fat over time after basal temp rises to the ideal range"

    Just wondering, any clue on what could be going on in those of us (me, Cusick, anyone else?) who did reach optimal basal temp months ago on the HED, but still haven't seen any decrease in hunger or spontaneous loss of body fat?

    Reply
  75. Yeah, I am waiting for someone on the HED to actually start losing weight. Seems like it may be good for restoring one's metabolism, then you may need to ramp it down to actually get slim.

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  76. Collden-

    I'm certainly going over some ideas as I work on my weight loss eBook revision. Personally, I seem to be losing about 2 pounds per month.

    Regardless of what we determine HED is useful for as we continue to explore it, it certainly makes it easier to lose weight once you've reached a ceiling in your weight and body temperature is within the ideal range. Timelines are longer than most people want to see though.

    In the new eBook I'm crafting it more as a metabolic healing phase in which you get out of starvation mode, followed by an optional body recomponsition strategy kind of deal afterward for those who are truly overweight and are not losing any fat spontaneously.

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  77. Anonymous with link to why you're not touching McDonald's food:

    99 out of 100 doctors would look at Julia Havey and Don Gorske side by side and say that Gorske is healthier than anti-McDonald's Julia Havey. That's the point of this post. You have unhealthy people talking about how unhealthy McDonald's food is while looking fatter and less healthy than McDonald Gorske.

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  78. Michael,

    I am not sure how he did it, but you could probably put the powder into some oil and then apply it to the hair.

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  79. Peat dissolved his DHEA in some olive oil and then applied it to his hair/skin

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  80. Concerning the McDonalds burgers not decaying. I do not see that as proof that it is unhealthy. Pemmican was considered a very healthy food by native americans, and it would last for many years. Maybe a Big Mac is the new pemmican!

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  81. Matt,
    Glad you liked the Darden link. Your dietary recommendations remind me a lot of the HIT guys. They all advocated a high carb, moderate fat, low protein diet. Mike Mentzer was famous for dieting down for the Mr Olympia contest eating ice cream everyday. Arthur Jones, the founder of HIT and Nautilus was the guru to all the other guys, and is one of the most interesting characters ever in the fitness biz.

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  82. @Anyone who is arguing Gorske is a genetic freak:
    I am very doubtful that this is the case for a very simple reason. How the hell would that even work? Genetic mutations may or may not be a powerful influence, but still our bodies are working the same way, no genetic mutation will be able to drastically change that. We need certain nutrients to maintain health, our body is a very tightly controlled systems, there is a very complex interplay of hormones at work.
    How would a simple genetic mutation be able to overwrite this? Gorske may perhaps need less of a certain nutrient or be able to handle a certain substance better, but 99% of him will still work just as we do.
    There may be a genetic mutation at play that allows him to stand McD food a little better and maybe other poeple would have slightly worse results on his diet, but Gorske still can't make bones out of sugar or anything like that. He is no superhuman, not one of the X-Men, so it would be silly to assume that all other people would misearbly fail on such a diet, while Gorske seems to have no obvious health problems.

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  83. @Matt

    Looking forward to reading the new material.

    @JT

    That was a nice reference. Actually put it on hold at the old local library. I have a few friends who body build and compete a fairly high level. I always get into two arguments with them. One, the amount of protein they ingest is ridiculous. Two, the volume of work they do. Though it always ends with them looking at me smiling and saying, "OK Nate".

    A little off topic, but changing my diet from high protein (low carb) to low protein (adequate) to high carb was the best choice for me.

    Oh yeah, Julia Havey…hilarious Matt!!

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  84. Hey Nathan, Matt, JT:
    PLEASE go further into this protein discussion! I would love to not have to eat at least 1 gram per pound of bodyweight and sub that for more carbs and fat. I workout for strength and aesthetics purposes but I have a hard time refuting the success of bodybuilders and their high protein intake. Maybe their results are due to their workouts and their calorie control and not their protein intake? Any input would be great! Thanks!

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  85. Matt

    Ok, looking forward to it.

    By the way, I subscribed to the new mailing list and tried to watch the video, but it tells me it's private and I have to accept a friendship request or something…?

    Reply
  86. "However, with calorie intakes above 3,000 and higher, nitrogen balance was maintained, in a full-sized adult male, with as little as 30 grams of protein per day."

    I'm at loss about ntirogen balance. You mention it a lot in the ancel keys post, but I don't know what it means.

    Did Keys' study show that it took women longer to break out of rebound hyperphagia and return to a normal weight. I mean when you think about it makes sense because they say it can take up to a year for a with balanced hormones to loose baby weight. I'm sure a lot of us are hormonally screwed up. So figure the hormones get fixed then start adding the time onto that. Yeah, it is a long haul. But then I've been yo-yo dieting for 8 years, minus time out for pregnancy. Personally I'm giving myself a year to heal my temps without even looking to armour or anything.

    I'm actually thinking I'd prefer to do a modified milk cure before messing around with thyroid supplements.

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  87. Jenny its just a term used to describe the catabolic/anabolic processes on lean (muscle, organ, connective tissue?) body mass.

    Balance is a little misleading because you are never in perfect balance in terms of how much you are breaking down to how much you are building. When your body breaks down protein (well anything for that matter) it creates organic byproducts often found in the urine.

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  88. Mark

    Personal experience has demonstrated how little protein I actually need not only for "maintaining" but also for building muscle mass. Now I am no bodybuilder by any stretch, nor want to be.

    I was low carbin' it for a while, and started to lift weights again during that time. Definition increased (fat loss), weight dropped, then more weight, and more weight, etc. I knew that recovery was very important so I was only working out twice a week at the most @ 20 min. (so not over training). This was while I was consuming huge amounts of fat and protein. Protein some days where my primary caloric intake, kidney damage anyone?. Still loosing body mass. Starving?

    I came around to a high carb diet and low protein, and very easily and quickly gained muscle. Primarily the same workout routine. It expressed to me that high protein is grossly inefficient and unnecessary (for me).

    I think this has been mentioned here; the more carbs I added back to my diet the less desire for protein I had.

    My body comp is far better as well.

    I have looked into the science but just wanted to share experience.

    JT will undoubtedly be able to get more technical if that is what you are looking for.

    Oh and by the way don't look at bodybuilders as examples of "success" in terms of diet. We'll just say they enhance their anabolic tendencies with things outside of just nutrition, wink, wink.

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  89. Hey Nathan,
    Thank you for your feedback and now I have some more questions if it's ok. To get a little more technical, do you have any guidelines on how much? For example, using a popular calorie calculator for total daily energy expenditure at a moderate activity level (moderate to hard workouts 3 to 5 times a week) leaves me at about 3,300 calories. Most recommend at least one gram per pound of body weight. So assuming I overshoot a little, just to be safe, and hit 250 grams at 215 pounds, that leaves me at 2,300 to break up between carbs and fat. If I split it down the middle, that would put me at 287.50 grams of carbs and 128 gram of fat.
    Taking this a step further and adjust protein to say 125 grams, that leaves me either an additional 62.6 grams of carbs and 28 grams of fat (assuming even split). My next question revolves around the thermic affect of protein. Martin Berkhan pointed out research from Livesey who said that protein provides about 3.2 calories per gram and not 4. Thinking about this, maybe this is why high protein diets help some people lose weight because they are in fact providing less overall calories. Going one step further, if one were to drop total protein as you say, do you think it makes sense to adjust their calorie adjustment to reflect this thermic affect? Using the above example would leave me with 400 calories to distribute instead of 600. Interested on your take and more descriptions of your experiences.

    DISCLAIMER: I know that this site is not about people getting tied up in the details but I really like this stuff. Must be my personality. I agree that going to this level is necessary to live a healthy life.

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  90. Hmmm, I was wondering about all that excess protein in the milk diet. I was on milk alone for 23 days (still mostly on milk, just not as much), and it looks like I was getting about 120-150 grams of protein per day on the milk diet. Generally I would say I probably need closer to 70 grams, so that's roughly double the protein I would consider normal for me. Do you think all that protein has any negative side effects when it comes to the milk diet?

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  91. I'm very curious on how some of you manage to eat 3000-4000 calories on whole foods. I've been trying to eat to the max the past 2 days and have tracked all calories. Yesterday I ate a lot of food and was stuffed, and my end of day total was 2556. Today I had a big breakfast, big lunch, and snack and my total is only at 1776, so I can't imagine eating more than a thousand calories for dinner. I know it is easy to eat many calories when including sweets, junk food, and fast food, but on whole foods it is very hard.
    I'm trying to keep my carbs high and protein and fat moderate. I can't just eat 2 sticks of butter a day cause organic butter is very expensive and I have the butter police living at my house (mother in law) who monitors every tablespoon that goes missing.
    What are some very high calorie but low volume foods?
    One thing that I like to eat is gnocchi (Italian potato dumplings) cause they are dense, so even when you eat a small amount it is a lot of calories. Any other foods like this that anyone can recommend?
    Thanks

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  92. Visa,

    I found using whole milk an easy way to increase calories. Drink a pint after every meal, that's 900 calories. Use coconut oil in everything! Making rice? Put a few spoonfuls of coconut oil in it. Mashed potatoes are great, use liberal amount of butter and cream or milk when making them, and of course don't forget the gravy. I also make coconut milk smoothies, but stupid Thai Kitchen just began to water down their coconut milk, reducing the calories from 960 to 700, for the same price! Just mix equal parts coconut milk and juice, I find orange or blueberry to have the best flavor.

    Scott

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  93. Also, sometimes moderate alcohol (1 beer or a glass of wine) seems to up my appetite as well, I assume because it lowers blood sugar.

    Scott

    Reply
  94. One thought about the milk diet and protein:
    I don't know whether I'm correct here, but as long as protein is getting used for what is supposed to be used for which is buidling and repairing, there's nothing wrong with protein, not even from a metabolic standpoint, is it?

    If that's the case than I do not think that higher amounts of protein on the milk diet are a bad thing. Milk is incredibly anabolic and growth promoting. So most of the protein is probably gonna be used up for repair (after all, it's a healing diet, so this kinda seems to make sense to me). So as long as the bulk of your protein is gonna be used for tissue building and not as a fuel source, that's probably okay, isn't it?

    Reply
  95. Nathan, glad you liked the book. Darden is one of the only HIT guys that is reasonable. If you ever get a chance read about Arthur Jones, he is one of the most interesting characters I have ever heard of, a genius and a madman. He is the founder of the HIT training and he was the guru, and even though Darden had the PHD and Mentzer was the famous professional bodybuilder, they all still deferred to Jones' knowledge.

    I followed the HIT style of training for a long time, but now I follow Scott Abel's style of training with better results. I was lucky as a teenager to have a trainer who was a champion bodybuilder. I followed his methods which was the standard bodybuilding routines and diet. I developed a pretty nice physique training this way. Then I read Mike Mentzers book and changed my training style. It made my physique worse and I started getting a lot of injuries due to the training style. Even my dad would make comments about the change in my physique and how I looked better before I changed styles. I wouldn't listen, because I was so convinced by the logic of HIT.

    Reply
  96. madMUHHH – Those are kind of my thoughts as well. Many users of the milk diet report plenty of lean body mass gains, and the additonal protein may be all right in that case.

    Reply
  97. Hey JT,
    I was thinking of getting one of Scott Abel's books. Does he use high protein like everyone else? I know he likes really low calorie cycles.

    Reply
  98. Mark, It does not have to be so complicated man. Start your calorie calculation at 10 X body weight, which would give you around 2200 calories a day. I personally try to get 1 gram per pound of lean body mass. At about 20% bodyfat you will have approx 170 pounds of LBM. So start by getting close to 170 grams of protein a day. Divide that and your carbs and fats up over the day. If you want to eat less protein, then try half the amount above and divide it over the day. Stick with it for a while and see how you feel, if you need more then add more.

    I have to eat more protein than most of the people on here because i can tell a difference in my physique and strength levels when it goes down. But, I do this for vanity reasons, and would like it better if I didn't need so much. I am starting to experiment with lower protein levels.

    Reply
  99. Mark, It does not have to be so complicated man. Start your calorie calculation at 10 X body weight, which would give you around 2200 calories a day. I personally try to get 1 gram per pound of lean body mass. At about 20% bodyfat you will have approx 170 pounds of LBM. So start by getting close to 170 grams of protein a day. Divide that and your carbs and fats up over the day. If you want to eat less protein, then try half the amount above and divide it over the day. Stick with it for a while and see how you feel, if you need more then add more.

    I have to eat more protein than most of the people on here because i can tell a difference in my physique and strength levels when it goes down. But, I do this for vanity reasons, and would like it better if I didn't need so much. I am starting to experiment with lower protein levels.

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  100. madMUHHH I have to agree with you. We know that not all carbs, and fats are treated the same in the body, why would protein be any different.

    JT not to continue the off topic, but yeah I took the HIT approach for a while, then I (naturally?) moved to a more varied approach with both intensity, and volume. Got board, felt lab ratish, and UNNATURAL.

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  101. Mark, No Scott does not like super high protein amounts, and thinks most bodybuilders take to much becuause they have been brainwashed by supplement companies. I think he usually likes somewhere close to about 1 gram per lb. But, not always,and he says that protein is important, but not that important. he has some mp3s out called the truth about dieting and food where he discusses the importance of not eating protein in excess.
    His books are mostly about training, you would be better off getting his Cycle diet DVD, and then one of his training DVDs like the MET (metabolic enhancement training).

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  102. Thanks JT. The 10x bodyweight thing sounds pretty good but I would imagine that you need to up the calories at some point during the week to avoid having the metabolism falter or do you just force the body to burn fat until you are lean and then you periodically up the calories?

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  103. Mark,
    You can cycle your calories different ways to prevent the metabolic slowdown.

    The way Abel does it on the Cycle diet is taking 1 day off a week from diet to eat as much as they want. These guys easily down more than 10k calories in a day. When you get really lean you can add in midweek spike for your last meal of the day. These guys are always hungry and they are very disciplined, so you would need to take that into account before trying it. They all get excellent results though.

    The way I do it is by just having 2-3 cheat meals a week where I just eat as much of whatever I want to eat. This will automatically spike my calories without trying, and it gives me much more flexibility. I eat 35 meals a week, and only 3 of them are cheating, so I am still eating clean 90% of the time.

    At 20% bodyfat, you should probably try to stay strict until you get some fat off and get into what Abel calls "supercomp", that is when the body will really respond to the spikes by boosting the metabolism.

    Reply
  104. I could give that a shot. 2,150 calories per day and then one day a week each as much as I want. I'm not going to start it now but I might in a bit. Thanks for your insight.

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  105. Don't worry about turning people off with specifics like this. They are not for everybody, but there is no question that when it comes to preserving lean tissue and physical performanc while minimizing body fat, it's the bodybuilder crowd. These guys really are the ultimate experts in how human physiology is impacted by food, and we all have many lessons to learn from them.

    But there are huge variations in beliefs out there. Franco Columbo, perhaps the biggest badass pound for pound on earth during his heyday, didn't eat excessive protein at all – recommending 1/2 gram per pound of bodyweight roughly for intense training.

    Personally, I think the more starch and the more calories you eat, the higher the protein deposition. But I don't think any human being can consistently store 200 grams of protein every day. Just storing 20 grams of extra protein over basal needs (which are only about 1/4 gram per pound eating at maintenance calorie levels) is enough to pack on 16 pounds of muscle per year.

    Any protein over that level is waste and a net-negative.

    There's no question in my mind that the perfect anabolic diet is high-starch, moderate protein, low-moderate fat – and high calorie at least part of the time.

    Collden-
    Sorry about the video. Fixed it.

    Reply
  106. Matt,

    You said "There's no question in my mind that the perfect anabolic diet is high-starch, moderate protein, low-moderate fat – and high calorie at least part of the time."

    I agree with this completely, and that is the way i eat now. I am eating a lot less protein than i was in my low carb paleo days, but i am 20 pounds heavier, but still leaner than I was.

    Another thing I have noticed that goes against the fitness mainstream is that I do better with larger amounts of protein and lower amount of carbs in the morning, and then higher carbs and lower protein at night. This is the exact opposite from what most say, which is to eat all your carbs in the morning, and don't eat carbs before bed.

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  107. I love in Super Size Me when he says that The Big Mac makes up about 90% of his total solid food intake. Classic…

    I'm sure the simplicity of having every meal prepared for you and spending zero mental energy wondering what you are going to eat does wonders. His body has to be a genetic powerhouse for streamlining Big Macs by now.

    I'd wager Gorske makes it to #42,635. Is there a sports betting site that could handle this?

    Reply
  108. Good point on the fat lady carrying around the old hamburger and fries… she doesn't look very healthy… lots of make up on,,,, bleh. She is just saving the hamburger and fries to eat it later, in times of famine…heeha'

    troy

    Reply
  109. Dave Ridarelli,

    You want Long Bets.

    Reply
  110. Matt, and all of you that are interested in Dr. Mark Starr and his Hypothyroidism Type 2. He was on the radio show coast to coast tuesday evening for a 3 hour interview. You can listen to it on
    coasttocoastam.com

    Reply
  111. Man, I think I should try experimenting with eating less protein.

    @Swede: So you consume fruit/fruit juice on a regular basis? Did you already do that from the beginning (I'm simply assuming that you started HED as a healing diet like most here, I think I read that once, but I'm not that sure right now. Wasn't your nickname PaleoRD before? If you were on a paleo diet before, my situation might be comparable to how your once was)
    I'm asking that, because currently I'm more and more opening up to fruit. As long as O6 is low, fructose in fruit probably isn't that bad and I might give that a shot as soon as fruit is in season again and my temps are up a little more.

    @Matt: So, what is your current stance on fat? You said the perfect anabolic diet is probably low fat and while this might have nothing to do with the HED, I just wanted to know what your current fat recommendations are on a % of calories basis. On your 180 introduction age you mention same amounts of carbs and fats, but you also said that other ratios might b more favorable. This probably also may vary from person to person but still I wanted to hear your current take on this.

    I think in the end I might gravitate to more Kitavan macronutrient ratios, but I'm not sure whether that ratio is also suitable for metabolic healing:
    "They get an estimated 69% of their calories from carbohydrate, 21% from fat, 17% from saturated fat and 10% from protein"
    from wholehealthsource

    Reply
  112. JT,

    Yep my experience to the letter. I am about 20-25 pounds heavier (past year), and the little fat that I did gain was appropriate with the added lean tissue. And yep a protein in the morning guy myself.

    I think I gained the most weight when I added a lot of milk back into my diet. Which gets back to what Matt was saying about the usability of protein.

    madMUHHH,

    The past few weeks my food has been very close to those ratios. Though I do have a chuck roast in the slow cooker waiting for me to destroy it when I get home.

    Reply
  113. Hey Matt, whats up with promising a free Ebook that is over a month and a half from being ready?! I mean, wtf?!
    Haha, Im just playing I dont really care but it occurs to me that for people that are actually new to the site this might turn them off of you some, promising an ebook that is 1.5 months away. I know I would be more skeptical of you if I had just discovered you, was promised an ebook, and then told it wont be ready for a long time (in their eyes, you might never actually send it to them). Thought Id give my feedback.

    Reply
  114. madMUHHH:
    I've been eating a Kitivan ratio style for 2 almost 3 months know and I feel that it is absolutely the best for me. I eat high calorie, high starch/low fat (but almost all saturated). I have lost around 3-4% body fat and gained around 10 lbs of muscle since the start.

    Reply
  115. Hey Riles,
    This sounds cool. Can you give an example of one day of eating? I think the idea of eating more starch and less protein is very compelling. Are you doing much exercise? Much appreciated, thanks.

    Reply
  116. @MadMUHHH

    Yes, I used to be paleo! When I started reading blogs, I thought it was the best diet case closed. Of course, my mind has changed now! I did fairly low carb paleo (not a big fruit eater) for about a year and a half, and I finally gave up on it when I could literally feel my heart beating through my chest and I was sleeping only 5-6 hours a night. Way too much adrenaline. I was also eating a lot of nuts, chicken skin, oils, so lots of omega-6.

    I mix coconut milk with fruit juice because it tastes really good, and coconut milk by itself does not taste good to me. I only drink it 2-3 times a week though, mainly as an immune booster and for extra energy before weight lifting. Other than that, when I first started HED I maybe drank 8-16 oz. of juice per day for extra calories, but I have never tried the quart or more per day as recommended by Peat.

    I make a lot of choices based on my economic situation. Where I live, store fruit is crap, and fruit from the farmer's market is expensive. If I don't eat it fast enough, it rots and I feel like I wasted precious dollars. Fruit juice bypasses those problems for me, it tastes good and does not go bad quickly.

    Scott

    Reply
  117. Mark:
    Yes I do weightlifting exercises but the only variable that I changed was my diet, so I feel that was the cause.
    First, I think that it is important to eat 3 evenly spaced meals a day with no snacks. This allows for digestion and insulin regulation. I can normally go 5 hours between meals and I feel this is about right.
    My meals are normally centered around 50-75g of protein and 100-200g of carbs and 10-15g of fat.
    I don't eat any sugar. I mainly eat white potatoes and white rice for carbs. Lean beef(like Sirloin) and egg whites (I eat 1-2 egg yolks a day just to limit my pufas) and rarely chicken breast for proteins. The fats I consume are coconut oil, tallow, butter and whatever is in the meat I eat. I use just enough to saute my onions or peppers or what have you that I eat with my proteins. I also eat cooked green leafy vegetables sometimes as well. I have plugged my diet into nutrition software before and it is not deficient in vits or mins and I feel pretty good eating this way after coming off of a very low carb diet.

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  118. Thanks Riles. I think this diet approach makes a lot of sense. Thanks for your feedback.

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  119. So many of you may have already read this abstract, but I thought it was very interesting.

    http://www.pnas.org/content/94/17/9372.full

    As some of the discussion has been about how degeneration is compounded through generation and how PUFA (n-6) could possibly have a role in that, especially when in the diet during gestation (at least in rats).

    Reply
  120. Thanks Cusick – That Site Is Great

    Reply
  121. JT:

    What was your HIT-routine? How are you training right now?

    Reply
  122. Matt,

    If you wouldn't buy Don's book for $50 NO ONE WILL. I am shocked; you have to be his biggest fan!

    I have sort of a hybrid theory on all of this. I mentioned this theory before and believe I got into some intense debates on your blog many months ago now. I also remember using Don Groske as an example supporting my arguments. My argument boiled down to underestimating the human's incredible ability to adapt (went on to use an ice age example which sounded out-there, but the science their supports this point). Perhaps if you eat a certain way for an extended period of time your body can begin to adapt; digesting the food properly.

    If you ate 25,000 big Macs for example you have to figure your body would learn how to handle the same meal. Maybe consistency is somehow the key for him.

    I strongly believe there is a LOT that we don't understand about overall nutrition and health; Groske is just another example that proves this. What ends up working for one person could be drastically different with regards to WHAT works for the general populous.

    I certainly wouldn't recommend eating 2 Big Macs per day for the average person who wanted to improve their overall health and well being. With that in mind, I would NEVER recommend that Don Groske change anything. He is probably now incapable of properly functioning on a "normal" diet.

    This all links in the part of the reason I don't give health advice to anyone, unless they go to me specifically seeking guidance. I commend you because it really isn't easy being a health researcher.

    Apologies for running on, keep up the good work. Don't go corporate!

    Reply
  123. EDIT:

    Spelling and grammar. Sorry I made the mistake of cramming that post in while working….

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  124. EDIT:

    Spelling and grammar. Sorry I made the mistake of cramming that post in while working….

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  125. EDIT:

    Spelling and grammar. Sorry I made the mistake of cramming that post in while working….

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  126. Thanks again Riles and JT. Currently if I don't get enough carbohydrate, I just don't feel as good. Eating tons of fat makes it impossible to get into the super-carb zone. Same goes for protein, and with a higher starch intake, you simply don't need as much protein to maintain or build lean mass. Fat, although valuable and essential, doesn't help with protein deposition. Starch, however, does.

    Low-carb's applicability still remains in weight loss as far as I'm concerned, but only because it triggers maximal fat release, which is the key to being satiated and keeping the lean tissues well-fed and preserved while weight is being lost.

    I now realize that much of my former hypoglycemic episodes and sugar cravings stemmed from undereating and overexercising. I used to be one of those protein breakfast guys. But now, free of such nonsense, eating carbs to the point of satiation is incredibly satisfying assuming there is adequate protein and at least some fat present.

    When I used to go out for breakfast and eat pancakes or a waffle, I'd be starving by 10am.

    Yesterday I went out to Lucille's in Fort Collins, had a waffle with fruit and some whipped cream on it, and didn't even think about food until 5pm (9 hours later). The rules of the game change when you are well-fed.

    I think that ultimately, overfeeding more on starch, and less on fat (Kitavan ratios), will be more metabolically-productive. Only time will tell, but I'm certainly open to the idea. Thanks again Starch-ka-teers for your input.

    And Dave… Bout time somebody threw out a Gorske Big Mac number to challenge. You're on m'fer!

    And Mike C-
    I've given that thought some consideration as well. Gorske supposedly at a Whopper once for 5 bucks. I wonder how much we'd have to pay him to feed him differently and subject him to scientific study? Hopefully not as much as he charges for his book.

    Droo-
    Great point. I was worried about this when I made the change, but wanted to do it immediately and move away from the membership/eZine/etc. There will be collateral damage for sure in promising an eBook that hasn't been written yet. But I'll make up for it when that badboy comes out. It's not going to be fluff. It will "Knock Their Socks Off!"

    Thinking of this title because there's some indication in the scientific literature that leptin resistance is caused by inflammation-mitigating molecules known as SOCS. So the point will be undoing leptin resistance by Knocking your SOCS off. Get it! Golly ghee willikers I'm hilarious!

    Seriously though. Should be great. The SOCS mitigate inflammation like cortisol does, and they have the dual function of inducing insulin resistance, lowering body temp., increasing appetite, and otherwise inducing metabolic syndrome/characteristics of starvation – and it all comes back to inflammation.

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  127. …and to Mike's point about Don Gorske adapting to his diet of Big Macs, I defer to the powerlifting legend Dave Tate.

    I've posted this many times before, but I don't know if I posted it here. Dave Tate wanted to start eating better because his health factors were pretty bad in general, so he approached John Berardi for help (from the article)…

    "JB, I want your opinion on something. Here's the deal: Right now I'm about 290 pounds and my ortho tells me that I have to lose some weight. My shoulder is fucked and will need reconstruction if I don't lose about 40 pounds. Also, with high cholesterol, high blood sugar, high liver enzymes, and a mess of other problems, it's about time I took care of this shit. But here's the problem… "

    This is where Tate lowered his voice a bit, chuckled, then said:

    "I can't eat clean."

    "Pardon," I said. "You can't eat clean?"

    "Seriously, the last four times I tried to eat clean, I ended up throwing up multiple times by lunch."

    Now I was chuckling. "What do you mean, Dave?"

    "Each time I try to clean my diet up and eat like a bodybuilder, it only lasts about half a day. I'll eat the egg whites and oatmeal for breakfast, and I'll have a protein shake a few hours later. For lunch I'll eat chicken breasts and a salad.

    But I'm not kidding when I say that by 1:00 I'm puking my ass off, not to mention that I've been shitting all morning. Wanna laugh your ass off? Picture this: One day I actually strained a trap puking my guts up. By 2:00 PM I was sitting on the couch with an ice pack on my neck, my asshole on fire from shitting a half dozen times that morning, and puke stains on my shirt."

    http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/nutrition/dave_tate_1.htm

    He may have "adapted" to eating that way, but he wasn't healthier for it though.

    Reply
  128. …or he just ate way too much protein.

    Reply
  129. Hey Matt,

    You said "There's no question in my mind that the perfect anabolic diet is high-starch, moderate protein, low-moderate fat – and high calorie at least part of the time."

    I can't remember where I read it, but I remember reading that fat intake should ALWAYS be higher than protein intake.

    madMUHHH posted…"They get an estimated 69% of their calories from carbohydrate, 21% from fat, 17% from saturated fat and 10% from protein"…so even the high carb Kitavans eat more fat than protein.

    Have you or anyone else here delved into the "fat greater than protein" thing?

    Reply
  130. @madMUHHH, you said "…or he just ate way too much protein."

    I think he just ate way too much…period…LOL!

    Reply
  131. @ team smith

    so basically y'all are saying we should be downing mcd's and any other junk food we want b/c it's not really affecting our health anyway?

    Well, aside from the PUFAs, that's Ray Peat's hypothesis. But one thing I'm afraid of myself is the MSG. (I don't see a dissertation on Russell Blaylock on this site.)

    @Matt Stone

    The most important factor in maintaining nitrogen balance in a lean person was calories. Even with high protein intake, a lean person on a low-calorie diet would be in nitrogen deficit. However, with calorie intakes above 3,000 and higher, nitrogen balance was maintained, in a full-sized adult male, with as little as 30 grams of protein per day.

    Wow. I wouldn't have guessed that protein requirements would change with calories. There's so much out there that I don't know.

    Fat, although valuable and essential, doesn't help with protein deposition. Starch, however, does.

    I'm assuming you explain where you got this in your books?

    …leptin resistance is caused by inflammation-mitigating molecules known as SOCS. …The SOCS mitigate inflammation like cortisol does, and they have the dual function of inducing insulin resistance, lowering body temp., increasing appetite, and otherwise inducing metabolic syndrome/characteristics of starvation – and it all comes back to inflammation.

    Wow again. Never heard of this. So Matt, what are you going to do once you are more knowledgeable about human biology than anyone on the planet??

    @Nathan

    Protein some days [was] my primary caloric intake, kidney damage anyone?

    Eades has said that's a myth, and I believe him. However, there are lots of things wrong with a mostly protein diet. Atkins said that it suppresses the thyroid, for one.

    Reply
  132. "Well, aside from the PUFAs, that's Ray Peat's hypothesis"–you're completely wrong

    raypeat.com

    Reply
  133. Ha ha Jared. I've got a long way to go before I'm the almighty guru of human physiology.

    I have not talked about starch's role in protein deposition in any of my books. Talking about it being protein-sparing in my current weight loss revision.

    I do think it's best to consume more fat than protein. Low-fat constitutes anything less than 30% of calories. Moderate would be more like 30-40%. Protein is probably best in the 10-15% of calories range I suspect.

    Reply
  134. Hey Matt,
    I think that makes sense. Carbs at 50-55%, 10-15% protein, and 30-40% fat. I think I could do quite well on that anabolic approach. What do you think?

    Reply
  135. Me thinks that sounds pretty good, and you'll probably get a hell of a lot better workout in with more carbs too.

    Reply
  136. Question:
    Do you suppose that McDonald's fries were healthier–in addition to being obviously more delicious–when they were cooked in rendered beef fat? I believe that beef tallow would be mostly saturated fat and MUFA, and, like lard, certainly tastes a hell of a lot better than vegetable based oils or shortenings.

    We have a placed here in Maine that cooks belgian style frites in DUCK FAT. Oh man oh man are they good.

    So, what say you: should we be back to frying in lard, tallow, etc.?

    Reply
  137. Dan-
    The switch from tallow to veggie oils was an obvious catastrophe. Duck fat and lard are better options too, but still way too high in unsaturated fat to be considered optimal for frying.

    The ultimate oil for frying would be the most highly saturated, which means that palm and coconut oils are the ultimate. Unflavored, unscented coconut oil is by far my favorite frying oil, and I make the meanest fries you ever did munch with it. They come out a little less crispy when I use tallow, which is my 2nd choice for home cooking fats.

    I have a video making those fries if you haven't seen it yet, at http://www.180kitchen.wordpress.com

    Reply
  138. Next time you use the tallow try double frying. Fry 'em, drain 'em, and then fry 'em up again right before serving. Perfection.

    Reply
  139. No stranger to twice frying. That is, after all, how mainstream fries are done.

    Reply
  140. Matt: "What I'd like to see is a square-off between burgers and fries vs. burgers and coke. In other words, low PUFA/high-sugar vs. High-PUFA/ low-sugar. We know what happens when you put it all together though. You get a fatty liver and become very ill like Spurlock. But what happens when you omit either PUFA or fructose?"

    Spurlock also force-fed himself, so some would say it's just the excess calories that caused him to get fat and sick. What would have happened if he just ate to appetite and did not super-size just because a clerk asked and did not (apparently) make himself finish even if he had eaten to satiety already???

    Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't eat fries or soda (even diet) more than once a month to once a year. I did like Rally's fries more than McD's, they used to fry them in tallow as the nutrition data said the fat was like 56% saturated and I read vegan websites saying they used tallow. I could not confirm that with people working in the stores, though, and now the nutrition data has changed, so I don't get them often. (Once a month, perhaps.) I think that being relaxed and confident about food is definitely a factor. Micro-managing your diet and obsessing over every detail shaves years off of life as Matt said. Denying yourself comfort foods and "cheat" foods doesn't do anything to make you lean. In fact, you can be lean eating a cheesecake once a week or a half gallon of ice cream, as Martin Berkhan and other intermittent fasters show.

    Reply
  141. I was so inspired by this man I’ve started to eat a big mac everyday with salad don’t seem to put on weight?.. maybe he has something ?

    Reply

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