Janie Bowthorpe Fail

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Recently I contacted the site host of Stop the Thyroid Madness (and author of a book by the same title) Janie Bowthorpe.  I’ve been trying to explain to Janie what’s been taking place at http://www.180degreehealth.com/ for quite some time, as I’ve seen the diet and lifestyle manipulation outlined in Diet Recovery about how to RAISE YOUR METABOLISM,repeatedly outperform thyroid medication for raising low body temperatures.

Since the low body temperature was the primary diagnosis tool used by Broda Barnes and his modern-day followers Mark Starr and Stephen Langer – the world’s leading advocates of the type of thyroid therapy championed by Janie’s site, I’ve been nothing short of relentlessly eager to share what is truly a groundbreaking and pivotal nutrition/lifestyle discovery (although it’s not recognized as such by an any “authority”).

Of course, Janie just brushed it off, not realizing that the vast majority of hypothyroidism as defined by Broda Barnes, Mark Starr, and others has a cause that is not genetic, and can be overcome without medication.  I think it’s pretty cool, but Janie insisted that this article was not appropriate for her site because it promoted my site which is not acceptable to her guidelines and because she deals with people that have “organic thyroid disease” and not problems with leptin, omega 6, or dieting.

So be it.  I will continue to deal with the other 95% plus cases of “hypothyroidism” as defined by Barnes and Starr that is NOT a glandular disease, and do so with great success.  Perhaps half of the global affluent population has a leptin problem, pretty much ALL have an omega 6 problem as that’s been a century in the making, and at any given time over half of Americans for example report being on one type of diet or another.  Those are all problems than can lead to, for all practical purposes, “hypothyroidism.”

Eat Your Way Out of Hypothyroidism

Decades ago endocrinologist Broda Barnes took the first steps in popularizing the use of the basal body temperature test for diagnosing hypothyroidism. If the body temperature was low, and classic symptoms of hypothyroidism were present – which varied from constipation to acne to menstrual problems to hypoglycemia to you name it… that warranted the “hypothyroidism” stamp, regardless of what blood tests showed.

Over the past decade I’ve personally explored this strange phenomenon to the deepest depths that I can, and my general conclusion is that Barnes was simply genius to pinpoint a low metabolism as a causative factor in an endless array of health conditions. By targeting and treating a low metabolism specifically, his performance as a physician was, and still is, unprecedented.

In the last several years I’ve had some major breakthroughs in my own personal research of this matter. For starters, to call a low metabolism “hypothyroidism” when thyroid hormone panels are at least close to normal is misleading. It really should be distinguished from true thyroid glandular malfunction, and I think Mark Starr, in coining the name “type 2 hypothyroidism” is definitely on the right track.

We now know that the thyroid gland is not the head honcho when it comes to metabolism, just as the dealer is not the head of Caesar’s Palace in Vegas even though it is the dealer that is controlling the cards themselves.

The thyroid takes its orders, rather, from the hypothalamus in the brain, which sends out signals to the entire body as to whether to run at full tilt, or in what could best be described as “conservation mode.” It’s this mysterious conservation mode – this chronic low metabolism that so many people in the modern world suffer from, that I’ve spent so much time wrapping my head around.

When the thyroid gland is healthy and functional, but the metabolism is still low, it’s obvious that something peculiar is going on. In the rest of this post I’ll try to briefly describe what I think that peculiar something is and precisely what can be done about it in lieu of taking medication –desiccated thyroid, synthetic T3, or otherwise – as I’ve found that to be unnecessary to raise body temperature back to the ideal level in most cases – and the typical person on thyroid meds following my program has to stop taking the meds to avoid hyperthyroid symptoms.

In 1994, Jeffrey Friedman of Rockefeller University in New York discovered a brand new hormone – one that scientists had been chasing for decades. This hormone was leptin.

Leptin resides in the fat tissue where it communicates to the hypothalamus as to the overall state of things. When leptin is high, it signifies abundance – and the thyroid kicks into high gear, growth hormone increase, the body is highly sensitive to insulin, and a whole chain of positive metabolic effects take place. Adequate or high leptin levels = Good times baby!

When leptin levels are low, this signifies famine or shortage. In this state, the hypothalamus activates all the “programs” that help us store fat and keep our metabolism reduced. The thyroid goes on vacation while fat storage enzymes are ramped up, we become less sensitive to insulin to prohibit muscle growth and energy for muscular activity, and our appetite skyrockets.

These are the master programs that determine not just our weight which everyone is so concerned about these days, but our metabolism – which I believe Broda Barnes and his modern-day followers have shown to be the kingpin in many modern disease phenomena – from heart disease to autoimmune disease to infertility.

But of course, it’s not just a simple matter of getting more leptin. The much more common cause of a chronic low metabolism is not a shortage of leptin at all in a strict sense – and certainly not a shortage of thyroid hormones (although overriding a low metabolism by taking thyroid medication can certainly help), but a leptin communication problem. Leptin, like most hormones, depends on receptor sites – and the body of your typical modern human is resistant to the hormone leptin.

Leptin resistance = The body thinking that it’s in a famine scenario

Wonder why you are tired, don’t feel like exercising, have trouble losing weight, gain weight easily, are hungry all the time, have a low body temperature, and have really strong cravings for fattening foods like doughnuts, ice cream, and French fries? Your body is acting like it’s starving that’s why, and that’s what it feels like to be starving if my own personal experience with it and my thorough word-for-word exploration of the 1,300-page The Biology of Human Starvation is any indication.

What is this villainous foe causing the bodies of modern humans to be unresponsive to leptin and suffer from a lifelong urge to store fat with an ever-declining metabolism?

In short, it’s the adrenal hormone cortisol (and upregulated activity of an enzyme in fat cells themselves that helps manufacture more cortisol called 11-HSD-1). Cortisol is considered a “stress” hormone, but it’s much more than that. It’s also a counter-inflammatory hormone, and cortisol, along with another hormone that counters inflammation called SOCS-3, are the leading suspects in blocking the action of leptin and leaving us all hungry, tired, fat, and sick due to the resultant low metabolism/low body temperature.

Unfortunately, the question of what causes cortisol to be so high is quite complex and individual. Anything that is chronic, whether it be chronic infection, tooth decay or gum disease, sleep apnea, dehydration, or nutrient deficiency, can all cause the activation of the “famine programs.” Anxiety, worry, fear, loss of a loved one through death or divorce, self-esteem issues, past emotional trauma, or other kinds of mental/emotional stress that is of a chronic nature can trigger it too.

But there are two causes of a leptin resistance-induced low metabolism that shine brightly above all others…

1) High omega 6 fatty acid concentration in cells and tissues

2) Dieting

Target #1 is particularly intriguing. Prior to 1900, vegetable oils, rich in omega 6 fatty acids, had scarcely been invented and were seldom used. But solvent extraction made it possible to produce oil out of corn, soybeans, and other cheap commodities for the first time. In 1909 in the United States there was no epidemic of type 2 diabetes, no obesity epidemic, no early puberty epidemic, no infertility epidemic, no autoimmune disease epidemic – and heart disease had yet to be documented. Not a single case had been seen!

Top household fats at that time were beef tallow, butter, lard, olive oil, and coconut oil.

But soon vegetable oil-based margarines would outcompete with more expensive butter. Vegetable oil-based shortenings would beat out lard. And oils for cooking in the home and in restaurants became vegetable oil, vegetable oil, and more vegetable oil. From 1909 to 2009 vegetable oil consumption in the U.S. increased 1,450%. Consumption of margarine by 800%. The other richest sources of omega 6 are nuts and poultry, which saw increased consumption of 37.5% on behalf of nuts (mostly peanuts with a handsome omega 6 to omega 3 ratio of 177 to 1), and 278% on behalf of poultry.

During this time we witnessed the world’s first documented case of heart attack followed by a wave of heart disease out of left field that became the leading killer of both males and females alike in affluent nations. Of all the dietary changes that took place during this time, there is none more drastic or biologically significant than the huge rise in omega 6 polyunsaturated fat consumption.

Why is this so important? Because what we are witnessing is a multi-generational, cumulative increase in inflammatory disorders as well as an increase in low body temperature as reported by Barnes and his followers Stephen Langer, Mark Starr, and others. And what does omega 6 have to do with inflammatory disorders and “low thyroid?”

Well, for starters omega 6 forms the raw substrate used by your body to manufacture its primary inflammatory molecules such as Interleukin-6 and TNF-Alpha. The higher ratio of omega 6 to omega 3 (a competing fat) in the cells and tissues of the body, the more of these inflammatory molecules the body manufactures. It really is as simple a formula as that, which is rare in human biology.

This leads to a mass epidemic of inflammation – and inflammatory responses to all kinds of benign substances (the core cause of most allergies, including food allergies, and autoimmunity), which causes a release of counter-inflammatory hormones that are anti-thyroid, immune-suppressive, and otherwise problematic. One is, of course, our buddy cortisol. Another, which is released in direct proportion to the amount of omega 6-derived molecules is SOCS-3, suspect #1 in biochemistry today for being the predominant cause of leptin resistance.

Fun huh? Watch out for those heart disease-causing saturated fats! Fats like metabolically-stimulating, immune system-enhancing, insulin-sensitizing butyric acid found in butter (gasp), or the medium-chain triglycerides with similar properties found in the world’s richest source of saturated fat – coconut oil (the subject of one of Janie’s recent blog posts).

What’s ironic is that Broda Barnes was innately skeptical of the recommendation to eat polyunsaturated vegetable oils over saturated fats throughout his career – as he openly mentions in Solved: The Riddle of Heart Attacks. Wow, if he could have only seen the Pandora’s box that was opened with the discovery of Eicosanoids – the hormones derived from polyunsaturated fats with incredibly far-reaching biological and hormonal significance, particularly as it pertains to his baby – the metabolism.

Note, this omega 6 fat accumulates in our cells and tissues and continues to pile on generation after generation. This is a 100 year omega 6 pileup, your average American citizen has well over ten times the amount of omega 6 in cells and tissues that can be considered normal, and it will continue to negatively impact us individually and collectively until radical changes are made to tilt the balance back in the opposite direction – which takes several years to achieve with diligence.

Target #2 is dieting. First we had a problem with all this omega 6 making our bodies think we were starving, and then we addressed it by ACTUALLY STARVING ourselves. I believe restricted dieting is the greatest immediate threat to the human metabolism and human health – particularly extremes of calorie cutting, carbohydrate restriction, or low-fat vegan diets (despite apparent short-term results or what the priests of various dietary religions are preaching).

Talk about throwing gasoline on a fire. By far the worst health predicaments and lowest body temperatures I’ve encountered (96 degrees F and below, sometimes WAY below), were the result of severe calorie or macronutrient restriction – vegan and very low-carb being the worst.

But don’t just take my word for it that dieting is a dead-end strategy that lowers metabolism. See if you see anything that rings a bell in our discussion here and at www.stopthethyroidmadness.com from the greatest-selling diet author of all-time, Dr. Robert Atkins, issuing a warning about all diets including his own as referenced by the phrase “this one”:

“…remember that prolonged dieting (this one, low-fat, low-calorie, or a combination) tends to shut down thyroid function. This is usually not a problem with the thyroid gland (therefore blood tests are likely to be normal) but with the liver, which fails to convert T4 into the more active thyroid principle, T3. The diagnosis is made on clinical ground with the presence of fatigue, sluggishness, dry skin, coarse or falling hair, an elevation in cholesterol, or a low body temperature. I ask my patients to take four temperature readings daily before the three meals and near bedtime. If the average of all these temperatures, taken for at least three days, is below 97.8 degrees F (36.5 C), that is usually low enough to point to this form of thyroid problem; lower readings than that are even more convincing. It may be appropriate for those of you who fit these criteria to be prescribed thyroid by your doctor, and if so, a natural form of the hormone, which contains T3, is far superior to the most popular form of prescription thyroid, synthetic T4.

The good news is that I have had very little difficulty whatsoever with helping people to bring up low body temperatures to Broda Barnes’s magic 97.8 degrees F or above (axillary/armpit temperature). In fact, I would gladly put my protocol up against thyroid medication any day, as temperature gains from 95.0 F to the upper 97’s is something that my followers regularly achieve in as little as 30 days.

The main points of the program, which you can read about in exhaustive, intriguing, and entertaining detail in my free 64-page non-promotional eBook on the subject at www.180degreehealth.com, is to…

1) Anti diet – this means eating ample calories, carbs, fat, animal protein, and whatever the latest diet guru calls to restrict in abundance until the point of complete satisfaction or even beyond in the initial stages to jumpstart your metabolism

2) Favor saturated fats like coconut oil, butter, and beef fat over polyunsaturated fats like vegetable oils, poultry, nuts, and seeds (but this takes a LONG time to make a really substantial difference) – start by throwing ALL liquid oils out of your house and eating mostly your own, homecooked food

3) Eat whole, unrefined carbohydrates and avoid white flour, white sugar, high-fructose corn syrup, etc.

4) Favor starches like potatoes, yams, brown rice, and corn over sugars like white sugar, soda, fruit juice, honey, agave nectar, maple syrup, and fruit

5) Sleep like it is your job – as many hours as you can get per night

6) Keep exercise minimal until body temperature rises

Matt Stone is an independent health researcher, author of 6 books, and voice of http://www.180degreehealth.com/ and its associated blogs: http://www.180degreehealth.blogspot.com/ and http://www.180kitchen.wordpress.com/


  1. I am so glad you are back, I was getting worried.

    Ok, so my temps have never been at issue, today I got a 98.3. Doc says my thyroid is 'normal range.'

    But my blood sugar, although seeming to improve, also pongs around like a ping pong in a Chinese recreation center. Up, down ( 109 the other day), the sadly, back up to 120 today.

    I will stay the course. I will lower it. Eating less protein foods does seem to help and eating fermented foods does seem to help, as does no hard exercise.

    Just wanted to say hi,
    deb xo

  2. All I can say is Janie's really missing out. Your message couldn't be more relevant.

    I've heard that non-saturated fats raise leptin levels better than saturated fat, and also that carbs and protein raise leptin better than fat in general. Any thoughts on that? Or is it a moot point in the face of leptin sensitivity or resistance?

  3. Yeah, that Janie Bowthorpe is a douche bag. She should have published your post.

  4. 120… damn. Still keeping my fingers crossed. Just received an extensive BG chart done by a guy as nerdy as me and his postprandials dropped substantially from day 10 to 30 of RRARF. 2-hour postprandials dropped by about 25%, which is huge for assessing insulin sensitivity.


    I think omega 3 has been shown to raise leptin/raise metabolism – most likely because it counters the action of omega 6. Eating a bunch of neither is probably the best long-term strategy, but I'd be interested to see more of how fats interact with the leptin system.

    In general, I consider the carbohydrate to be the ultimate in terms of simultanously raising leptin while decreasing leptin resistance. Decreasing leptin resistance is by far the greater goal for a modern, overweight, middle-ager.

    Goofy Mama-

    Don't be railin' Janie too hard. I want her to be a little pissed that I made a fuss, but not too pissed. Nah mean?

    • Actually, Janie is a douchebag. Sorry. I’m a nurse and a hashi patient. I was a member of her site and she blocked me and shamed me publicly for sharing my story that not all patients benefit from T3. In fact only 5% really have conversion problems. Her protocol put me in the hospital with Atrial fibrillation and nearly killed me. THREE times. I have no heart problems. I lost so much weight in 3 months and was just a mess. T4 has kept my labs and my heart good. I would really stay away from her. If a person cannot open the floor to other opinions and experiences, then the agenda is not to help all people. My experience with her was the furthest from sane- it was actually nasty and irrational. I feel bad that people are listening to her. She’s not a doctor or medical specialist and it’s a disservice to physicians that spend so much time in school learning to help people. There is no conspiracy against thyroid sufferers by the Endocrinology association.

  5. Here's a good email I just got to go along with this post. This is what I'm talking about when it comes to raising body temps on RRARF (temps in C)…

    "Hey bro. Hows it going? My temperature went from 36 to 36.8 upon waking now. My regular temp is 37 to 37.1 which means my thyroid is working again good I think. Its been only about a week."


  6. Hey Matt
    For those of us who suck at math..can you tell me what the temp numbers are for John in American style language?

    too lazy to figure it out my own self

    Thinking I need this to be a two tatey day :) d

  7. I love when you re-sum it up for us. Plus, I started from believing it was my thyroid to ending up here, and it's a journey many probably need to take.

    But I have this problem with that 'no heart disease before 1909' statistic. I keep reading that, so I looked it up and found evidence to the contrary. According to http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0922292.html, the rate for "major cardiovascular diseases" was higher 100 years ago. Maybe that doesn't mean heart disease, or heart attacks, but what else could it be?

    Do you think those of us who are "born" with poor health due to generations of crappy food and stress can overcome it? Abel has me worried. And then, my poor children… who at least are eating better in childhood, but were probably born with NO adrenal function. Sigh.

  8. That's roughly a morning increase from 97 to 98.

    Hawaii Girl-

    That's interesting. I'd like to get to the bottom of that.

    My blog post on Metabolic Typing will give you a sense of how I feel about repairing from generations of dietary and lifestyle fouls resulting in poor heredity.


  9. I actually use the term douche bag somewhat affectionately. It's kind of my thing.

  10. @Lorelei aka Hawaiigirl

    I have heard all sorts of things about heart disease and it confuses me too!! Like what the heck causes arteries to clog? I know its not the saturated fat that today's media loves to believe, but then what is it? There is medical evidence of freakin Ancient Egyptian mummies that died of clogged arteries (http://abcnews.go.com/Health/HeartDiseaseNews/ct-scan-shows-heart-disease-mummies/story?id=9109938&page=4)… and this was without modern junk food.. they attribute the disease to the salt and meat in their diets. It makes me soooo confused :(

  11. It seems to me that 'no heart disease before 1909' idea came from Nourishing Traditions, and it looks to be a bit of WAPF-ery we've all accepted, but I'm not sure why. I'm fairly certain the idea of heart attack or stroke is present in pre-1900 novels, if not in scientific literature. I'm not saying it's sat fats. And the statistics seem to show an increase until the 50's, then a decrease. So, ferret it out for us Matt.

    When your whole website and raison d'etre is built around an idea (like hypothyroidism being IT) it's hard to accept that you could be slightly wrong. It took me months to give up on the idea of hypothyroidism, and my life wasn't tied into it! Give her time.

    Cortisol/adrenals seem to be it for me. Good sleep, good mood = good temp. I've gone back to being super-supplement girl (licorice, vit B, Mg, etc) after reading Wilson's Adrenal book. Just food didn't seem to be doing it for me anymore. Gotta get to sleep somehow…

  12. Matt, I think your blog is becoming more like a cult rather than a genuine health blog. You know, the comments section is turning into flirting service for your five groupies:

    - Jenny the Nipper
    - Debbie aka Grass Fed Mama
    - Elizabeth Walling
    - Lorelei aka Hawaiigirl
    - Lisa Eriksson

    And so many people have ditched your blog and started following Andrew's blog, Proline:

    - DML
    - Jannis
    - EL 66K
    - Undertow (Still somewhat against refined sugar.)

    Sadly, many people have disappeared from your blog. You probably scared them away with your attitude of trusting your personal anecdotes and ignoring evidence which contradicts your theories. Remember the debate you had about sugar with JT and Ian ? You thought you lost muscle when it's glycogen and you thought you gained belly fat when it's bloating. That's impossible, they argued! And I agree. So you probably scared them away. JT disappeared. Ian is active in AV-Skeptics but not on this site, so you probably scared him away.

    However, AaronF is still on here. By the way he writes, AaronF seems like a nice guy. AaronF and Rob A. are very similar; they are both pro-fructose, but they still respect Matt.

    Matt Stone and Chief are very similar people too. Their theories are very similar. And they both sound disingenuous in their prose. They try to be funny every time they write blog posts and comments. You know, they write one sentence in a serious tone. And they immediately switch their tone and write something funny. So I think they are using humor to cover up some of their weaknesses. I used to do this too, so I do know if something's up with them.


    So please, please, don't take any offense. I salute you. I bow myself down to you. Because you are the MASTER, the KING, the GOD of the diet gurus! So I'm your groupie too! (No homo. (Not that there's anything wrong with that.))

  13. Orgasm
    Lighten up, will you. Who cares that Matt flirts with his groupies? Who cares about Chief and Matt's lame humour. Proline has 10 followers, is this a popularity contest. People come and go why read so much into it?
    I can't take a person who eats refined sugar and gelatin(powdered!) seriously.

  14. @Ana:
    "There is medical evidence of freakin Ancient Egyptian mummies that died of clogged arteries "

    As far as I know the Egyptians already were refininf (vegetable) oils and sugar back then, so it's just kinda logical that they suffered from all kinds of diseases if civilization that were widely unknown then.

    That's kinda silly.

  15. Organism-

    It's funny that Peat drives such a wedge between others and me, as I am as receptive to his ideas as just about anyone, where others in the health/nutrition sphere immediately dismiss most if not all of his ideas.

    But you have to understand that refined sugar has always had a strongly negative impact on many people. There's no question that it is a primary driver of tooth decay, and that it causes metabolic syndrome in lab animals whereas starch does not.

    We are also eating more sugar and less starch by percentage of overall calories than at any time in American history. Cultures with a high ratio of starch to sugar are faring much, much better than Americans.

    Personally, I still cannot eat large quantities of sugar from fruit, juice, or refined sugar consistently without having tooth pain, fat gain, and a large drop in body temperature.

    And why would I lose glycogen sitting around eating lots of sugar? And would bloating really be the cause of a 5-pound weight increase and an inability to get my shorts on after a week of eating lots of sugar and drinking alcohol? I don't think so.

    I rely not just on personal anecdote, but the anecdote of others. Then I seek to figure out why certain people have certain responses or reactions to certain things and how best to deal with that without restricting "x" problem food.

    My blog also exists for my own personal thought process and development, and to carry on lively debates to help refine my own knowledge and awaken me to various blind spots that I may have. This keeps me growing and learning and maintains greater flexibility in my thinking than what you see elsewhere.

    It's not here to make everybody happy or to solve all of the complex problems modern humans face in the health department. I do my best, but that is an unattainable goal.

    My real core message is one simple message. Eat real food, don't starve yourself or eat a highly restrained diet, get plenty of sleep, don't run marathons in the name of better health.

  16. One mistake that may be clouding the "no one had heart attacks prior to 1900 idea" is that atherosclerosis is equated with heart disease. Yes, mummies had atherosclerosis. Yes, the Masai tribe has atherosclerosis. The Japanese have atherosclerosis that is indistinguishable from American atherosclerosis. Atherosclerosis appears to be a normal part of aging.

    But atherosclerosis does not = heart attack

    Also, I believe the stats on heart disease are mortality stats. You see a drop in heart disease mortality due to increases in saving lives of heart attack victims with advanced surgical procedures, but not an actual decline in heart disease incidence.

  17. If we're talking constructive criticism…. I'm tired of the exercise stuff and "debating" about fructose.

  18. Matt,

    maybe someone already answered my question but i hate to go through all the comments to find it….

    How do you keep your coconut oil from solidifying in the winter, or do you just scoop it out.

  19. Ha, meghan, my coconut oil is always solid. Except during ultra hot summer days. Just scoop it out. It's no big deal, really.

  20. to Organism as a Whole:
    I can only speak for myself.
    1. Your list of former followers is not accurate. For example Undertow was on the last post, numerous times.
    2. Your putdowns of me (and other ladies and gents) comes off like a jealous ex girlfriend. Better check your shorts.
    3. WTF is wrong with having fun and flirting as you call it, while dealing with serious shit? Really, I honestly cannot understand that type of thinking.

    I want you to take two seconds to walk in my flip flops (OMG I am making a JOKE, please avert your eyes all 'serious' followers!).

    At 47 I was told I have max ten years to live due to leukemia. My daughter was in kindergarten.
    I am in menopause and have a dearth of good hormones like progesterone etc.
    I seem to also be pre diabetic, but Matt is helping me with that OFF THE BLOG>> on his 'own time' so as not to bore the shit out of 'real followers'.
    Oh, and Chief? He also has contacted me 'off blog' and is helping me with his Native American/Canandian wisdom. How awful, how terrible, that two people are showing genuine caring, a hell of alot more than my own dr and Ray Peat? Yeah, I wrote him and he did write back.. then just dissapeared. Thanks Ray, for nothing.

    Can't I please flirt, joke and generally shoot the shit about my fucked up body without being attacked as a groupie?

    Even though my blood is sweet, your comments made it a bit sour and hot this morning. Sort of like hot and sour soup.
    Oh sorry, did not mean to add humor to my serious rant.

  21. @Meghan, If scooping takes forever, try chipping it out with a fork. Much easier IMO.

    Matt, thanks for the fantastic summary/update. I needed it.

  22. Matt, I was just wondering if the best strategy for lowering omega 6's would be to add additional 3's (maybe like krill as Mercola suggests) as well as eliminating 6's as much as possible. Do you know if the additional 3's "push out" or replace the 6's?

    I'm not even sure that we need the amount of 3's that are being touted or if the story about the Eskimos who eat loads of 3's and are supposedly heart protected is true but 3's certainly sound better than 6's!

  23. Just wanted to post something I came across the other day while researching diet statistics. A UCLA study to look at whether calorie-restriction is an effective treatment for obesity to determine whether it is something Medicare could pay for. The results: calorie-restriction is not only not an effective long-term solution, it doesn't even provide significant improvement in other health endpoints.


  24. just visited Proline.
    Yeah, sugar will cure all ills. And make sure you tell MEN to take progesterone.
    wow, it really cleared things up for me.

  25. Hi Organism,

    I saw my name mentioned on your comment, so I thought I would jump into the fray.

    First of all, let me say that I always enjoy your comments because they are perceptive and straightforward, including this one.

    I do agree, for instance, that the tone of the comments section has changed, and not for the better, especially lately. This became even more obvious to me with the appearance of Chief. You mentioned "flirting"; well, if one wants a prime example of banal flirting, read the comments under "Female Body Breakthrough." I never thought I would see such an asinine assortment of comments on Matt's blog, which I always respected for having one of the more interesting comments sections!

    However, I have not ditched 180; I respect Matt as much as ever, and consider him to be one of the best health bloggers on the net. In fact, I think in some ways the quality of his blog, as represented by his posts, and not the comments, has consistently improved.

    As for Proline, yes I read that blog, too.

    Speaking of Proline: Although I have eased up somewhat on my original anti refined sugar stance, I am not convinced that it is something that people should be eating in great quantities. Ray Peat is a great researcher, probably one of the best, but in my view his work on PUFA's, which I wholeheartedly endorse, far outshines his work on sugar. That said, I am no longer convinced that sugar deserves the vitriolic demonization that it receives, numerous anecdotes notwithstanding.** I used to think that refined sugar caused me health problems, but I have found the more closely I follow Ray Peat's advice, in particular his advise on PUFA's, the better I do on sugar…But I still think caution is warranted.

    Regarding Ian and JT: I do somewhat miss their comments and hope they come back.

    **Even less convincing is most of the official research on refined sugar and fructose. As I have mentioned before, particularly under the comments on the "Joel Marion" post, these studies are terrible and don't deserve to be called "science."

  26. Matt, just wanted to add my thanks to Kelly's for the summary. I too needed it.

    I ate a couple pieces of halloween candy a few days ago, and the next morning I saw my body temps drop from to 97.2 from 98 the day before. I didn't put the drop in temperature together with what I ate until I read this post and the comments.

    I've gotta stay off the sugar/PUFA train.

  27. Er, Debbie, if that is all you got out of Proline, maybe you should read more closely.

  28. Denise said,

    "I've gotta stay off the sugar/PUFA train"

    Maybe you have a point about sugar, but you ignore that vast amount of data and research that demonstrates the numerous problems with excess PUFA consumption at your own peril.

  29. Organism,
    Anyone with a vast amount of knowledge is going to be treated in some part like a guru. I think Matt has handled it fairly well. The reason I respect Matt is because of the tremendous amount of work he's put into pursuing his theories and also because he doesn't place ego before knowledge. He is available by email and will respond if you contact him with questions or concerns. As far as having fun on the blog, I don't see the big problem with that, unless we're supposed to be serious all the time.

    As for Matt's theories, I generally agree but need my own independent verification. I've paid for other ebooks as well, such as Chris Masterjohn's EFA report, and Danny Roddy's healthy hair diet and I've got my own bookshelf of health related books. I don't entirely agree with all of Matt's theories, and I'm working on some of my own. No, I don't entirely agree with his fructose stance, but I'm more in line with Matt than JT. And I also don't totally buy the PCAT theory. I have to do a lot more thinking on that one.

    I like this site because it seems to encourage independent thought. There are a lot of blogs out there that really feel like "follow the leader". I find myself challenged to think here. And I agree with you that the comments have not been up to their usual standard lately. But maybe it's just a lull. Or maybe a lot of the typical debates have been exhausted.

  30. Mea Culpa! Oh the irony! I told Debbie she needs to read more closely, but I need to apply the advice to myself.

    Denise, I owe you an apology! Putting your comment in the proper context, I realize you were probably saying that you need intend to avoid PUFA's. If that is the case, I retract my previous statement.

  31. Starch vs. Sucrose, this battle will live on for a long time I think. I tend to agree with DML, sucrose with low PUFA seems doable. I have been eating lots of fruit last two/three months (2yr abstinence before that), real food sources of sucrose, basal is same, set point is same. I will add that I do not eat refined sugar. Just doing what feels right for me.

    Deb, the progesterone stuff over at Proline, was my attempt at researching Lita Lee and Peat thoughts on acne. Basically they think acne is thyroid, progesterone deficiency, Andrew at Proline never recommended this. I stumbled on to that info from a post on 180 by Tarpel. I should note that I am not following that progesterone advice. I am strictly back to real food and rest and no supplements. Proline has taken over where Diet Fucked (ChlOe and Harper) left off, its a forum for people investigating Peat's ideas.

    I am 13 months of RRARF'ing and my basal is still low at 97.2 every morning at waking and still having acne issues. My basal seems to have peaked at 97.2 after about 3 months of RRARF, with occassional .1 or .2 higher, but the yearly score is 97.2, wish that @#$%@* would start climbing! I am hoping that time will heal this, and I am not a "Organic Thyroid Disease" victim :) There were lots of posts about fruit curing acne a while back, that has not been the case for me. Last step for me is to add back some type of metabolic training, while still eating real food to the max to see what happens. At this point though my body is NOT really telling me to exercise. Also I'm still enjoying the fact, that I can eat massive amounts of food I love and not gain any weight at this point… just let the healing continue.

    I will be around 180 and the other blogs until I figure this out and then some, need to teach this stuff to the younger generations!!

  32. Hey Matt,
    Great post. Really balanced and helpful. Just want to clarify, the 97.8, is that oral or external (ear/armpit)? Thanks.

    I have been living on all kinds of tubers, dairy, butter, meats, seafood, coconut oil/butter, and eggs. I feel great but I still have to fight the urge to eat something sweet (fruit or something processed). It's getting better but it's crazy how addicted one can be.

  33. Matt, thanks so much for this excellent blog post! That thyroid website is referred to all the time. She would be wise to consider your views, I think, because there are so many of us that are trying to heal all the adrenal/thyroid symptoms before our TSH number gets too high and we need to resort to meds! Your info has been invaluable to me! REally, it has put so much into place.

    Can I get your opinion on a product that someone is trying to sell me? In the blurb here http://teamasea.com/science.aspx they mention mitochrondria, and I know in your ebooks you talk about it. Just wondering if you think this is a scam, or something to just forget about and say no thanks.

  34. DML, your re-reading of my comment was the correct one. I very much intend to avoid PUFA's.

    Thanks for the retraction.

  35. Just hearing all the "comments are sucking" lately comments make me not want to comment.

    Obviously, I overcame that thought.

  36. I broke my 11 days of water fasting today, one day ahead of schedule since I figured I'd need more time to rev up my digestion before a family reunion.

    So, I started out at 11am with a liter of orange juice, this one liter of juice plus a banana filled me up so bad that for the next two hours the thought of more food made me sick. In time for the next meal my stomach had adjusted a bit and I was able to eat a couple of bananas and apples without getting uncomfortably full.

    All in all I've managed to gag down about 2000 kcal of OJ, bananas, apples and carrots today, barely more than I was eating before the fast, and right now I feel like I don't ever wanna see another piece of fruit in my life.
    I was really astonished by this lack of appetite after not having eaten at all for 11 days, I knew it'd be slow to begin with but I thought that as soon as I got some food in my belly my appetite would be roused, especially with all these "addictive" fruits, but right now I'm not really feeling the desire to eat anything at all. This doesn't seem to match what most other water-fasters experience after breaking it, most become ravenous for weeks or have their taste buds become so sensitive that they claim to actually thoroughly enjoy bland raw vegan fare. My appetite is if anything lower now than before the fast.

    Anyway, I'll gradually work my way back to a HED diet over the coming days so I'll see how this develops with digestion and all and write again when I got some more perspective, but today went fine, no stomach problems and I've had super-even blood sugar and mood all day, despite eating nothing but simple sugars, I doubt my fruit tolerance was this good before the fast. What's more interesting is that my almost perpetually cold feet have today actually been very warm and well-circulated all day.

    Don't know if this is an effect of the fruit or the fast. But overall, I'm really starting to come around to Peats view that sucrose is more metabolically stimulating than starch – and that the primary reason refined sugar is so dangerous is that it thus exhausts nutrient stores quicker than anything else.

  37. I recently bought Janie's book, and joined her Yahoogroup. I was diagnosed with Hashimoto's about a year ago and am still trying to understand the best way to address it.

    I mean I *feel* fabulous. I have tons of energy, exercise because I can't help myself, not because I force myself. Have no food cravings for donuts and ice cream and french fries, appetite is minimal. My carbs are lowish as I'm just not so carb crazy, though I'm not ketosis-low. I follow more of a Kwasniewski style eating plan, have been sugar-free, PUFA-free, gluten-free for almost 2 years now. (as far as in my control – obviously far less control if eating at a restaurant or someone else's home). Although it's been slow I've been losing weight – 55 pounds since January 2009. Based on how I FEEL I'd say I was in perfect health!

    But those darn numbers throw me off. There are the Hashimoto's antibodies for one, and the doctor's classic, elevated TSH. But the one that led me to Janie's site is my cholesterol, which keeps rising and rising and rising – from a total of 229 at my Hashi's diagnosis last year, to a total of 295 last month! Of course breakdowns are not bad. HDL -74, TG-50, LDL is high but 90% the harmless, fluffy Pattern A sort. But the rising total is supposedly totally symptomatic of uncontrolled thyroid, so I seriously am feeling I need to get on dessicated thyroid since the synthetic T4 the doctor has me on has done squat for the cholesterol. She won't prescribe it for me as she says she refuses to prescribe any meds she considers "dangerous" (which is what she thinks of Armour et al) – but she wants to load me up with STATINS and is POed that I have refused to taken them.

    Janie's site and book sort of turn me off, and get so damned finicky about all the tests you need to have done and all the issues you need to get totally in balance before you can be helped, that it seems almost hopeless to even HOPE to control the thyroid.

    But I do want to get the cholesterol down, not totally in and of itself, but because I think it's a marker indicating that other things are out of whack in the system, and getting T3 meds seems to be about the only way to do it from what I've seen so far.

  38. Also add former followers Harper and Chloe of the now more or less defunct Diet-fucked.

    Whatevs, Organism as a whole. I was having a good day, but you kinda bummed me out.

    I hope its neither too flirtatious or groupie-like to say, "good post, Matt."

    There was heart disease in my own family prior to 1909. I think it probably didn't get diagnosed until later though. When in the 1930s my great grandfather and grand uncles were dying of it people were like, oh yeah, great-great grandpa had similar symptoms.

  39. Great post Matt- a real tour de force summary of some of your research, and tying it all together.

    It's so reassuring to my own sense of things that you're no longer hyping a low fat version of HED. Probably still useful in some contexts, like low carb-ing, but not necessarily viable for most people for the reasons you laid out.

    Organism- thanks for the mention- seems that I'm still remembered around here despite my recent absence. On that note, I haven't been around much and don't feel all that qualified to say much about the recent comments. I'll just reiterate what otehrs ahve said- Matt's really genuine and really available in all my interactiosn with him off site. You've been a real decent and thoughtful correspondent, Matt, despite our never having met face to face, and I thank you for that.

    Cool y'all. Be well

  40. When it takes years to clear PUFAs out of your system, no one seems to know how long and it is very easy to get them without really knowing for sure, i.e. eating at restaurants and friends' houses, then how is it possible for people to have isolated the variables enough to say it's definitely PUFAs making us fat not fructose? Personally, healthwise, I do better without it than with either of them. Whenever I've been indulging in either in abudance, I feel it pretty fast with return of health issues like constipation. Following a Peat style diet put five pounds on my mid-section in a really short time.

    Collden, I'll be interested to hear what your experiments yield in terms of your circulation. That has been one of my issues forever.

  41. Tracking disease rates is problematic for a number of reasons. Diagnosis may have increased since understanding and recognition of a disease have increased. Or the formal definition of a disease could change. Or if we only measure fatal endpoints, that could be reduced by technological intervention, even though disease incidence has increased. You have to be very skeptical of exactly what's being told to you whether it comes from the mainstream or the WAPF.

    Bodyfat is something I went to delve into deeper on my own. The problem with really researching this stuff is there would be pretty much no data to support any kind of idea I might have.

    Right now I'm settling on the idea that body fat is some kind of overall emergent phenomenon. There is no one hormone, or nutrient that makes you gain fat or lose fat. So I think not only nutrition but things like self-esteem play into it.

    Some people seem to eat a lot of PUFA and white flour and not gain weight. But they eat an otherwise nutritionally dense diet, live their values, and are not stressed out. Some of us get very caught up in various theories or how clean the diet is. But that attitude I think backfires.

    Damn, it's getting dark out already. I don't like going off Daylight Savings.

  42. Mark said:

    "I have been living on all kinds of tubers, dairy, butter, meats, seafood, coconut oil/butter, and eggs. I feel great but I still have to fight the urge to eat something sweet (fruit or something processed). It's getting better but it's crazy how addicted one can be."

    Liz at Nourished life has been re-doing RRARF to try to beat her sugar cravings once and for all. I think you might find her results of use. After Halloween over indulgence in sweets I noticed the return of some things I thought I'd beaten (acne, constipation) so I got right back on the RRARF horse and am not eating anything sweet. I've been avoiding milk as well as I think Matt has mentioned that can trigger cravings. Has been working like a charm. I just loaded 12 cookies onto trays for works with no temptation to sneak one. I've had a tray of brownies about 3 feet away from my desk all week. Normally I wouldn't be able to resist these kinds of things, especially if they are right up in my face.

  43. Watch out AaronF, you mentioned an OFF TOPIC subject (daylight savings sucking).

    And I suspect you of having a crush on Jenny by the way you are flirting with her by answering her comment. Hussy! :)

    Ok, I admit it, she is pretty cute.

  44. Daylight savings does suck and I think it's on topic. Less daylight means time to thaw out the wild caught salmon. Sea bacon is what's for dinner.

    Thanks, Deb. Now you're flirting with me too. Hooray.

  45. Flirting is my gift.
    I just call it how I see it :) <3

  46. Ray Peat. I just can't get over the sugar thing. I want an excuse to eat bananas all day long, so I keep going back to him– but I also worry that sugar will make me gain tons of weight! who knows.

  47. What´s up with the gelatin thing going on ??
    Has anyone incorporate gelatin ???

  48. I just love, love, love everything about this post! You sum up all the important things we've learned so far! Besides you always seem to magically answer all my questions -GET OUT OF MY HEAD! ;-P

    To the whole not-so-serious-posts.. Why do we all have to be so politically correct? Cant' we all just enjoy each others differences? First off, Matt is a humorous guy and last time I checked, it was HIS blog! We like to joke and have fun, here at 180 and I am not going to apologizes for being fucking funny (yes, we all know I am so don't deny it) ;-P
    I didn't know there was a recipe for how to write in the comment section??
    Now let's just all be friends, eat some coconut (think that's something we all agree on) and be happy ;-)

  49. Sheila, you are so sexy when you comment :) xo

  50. There is nothing wrong with "joking" or "having fun" or even "flirting" for that matter. And as for being "politically correct" –I could care less about it! However, the reason I agree with Organism stems from the fact that lately some of the banter has become irksomely banal, which is always a malady of those who have nothing of value left to say. Once again, I hold the comments on the "Female Body Breakthrough" as a perfect example of a comment thread that is asinine and irksome. I mean, go back and read through it; some of the comments read as if it they were written by a bunch of vacuous, vapid high school students! (Hint, hint: Things seem to have settled down since a certain individual whose name begins with "C" and ends with "f" is no longer commenting.)

    I think it is telling that Organism's observation is now being contorted into a general gripe against flirting or "having fun" when that wasn't even remotely his point. Have the maturity to address criticism as it was actually articulated and stated without contorting it into something else.

  51. I forget the biggest contortion –perhaps "evasion" is a better word!– namely, his comment is being contorted so that "off topic" discussions or answering questions is somehow flirting. Absurd!

  52. So here's a question about what I'm guessing is inflammation. When I get my period, I get cramps – like knock me out cramps (childbirth sucked too), which haven't abated noticeably with any diet permutation (no sugar, no PUFA, no wheat, no carbs, no meat…). But worse than the cramps is the joint pain. As in, it's like I have rheumatoid arthritis. My joints ache to the point of making me cry, and I sound like a bowl or Rice Krispies (snap crackle pop with every move). Hmm, and my bowels get really loose. It only lasts a day or two, always in conjunction with the cramps. Obviously it's hormonal, but I haven't been able to find anything about this. And back when I bothered with doctors, the general response was, that's too bad, take some Tylenol. I'd rather get rid of it!

    Anybody have any ideas? I'm in misery today! Please, help out a groupie.

  53. Wow, DML, you really don't get my sense of humor. I was poking fun at his comment, not giving a literal translation. It's a joke, son.

    nuff said

  54. Lorelei-

    Do you eat gluten?

  55. Sometimes, and sometimes I go gluten free, and it doesn't seem to matter much. Even when I do, it's bread maybe two or three times a week and that's it.

  56. Debbie,

    Poking fun at someone's criticism can be a form of contortion/evasion. Note that, for now, I am not saying that is what you are doing.

  57. Cat fight! (RRRAAAAARR)

    p.s. please excuse this comment if you don't enjoy seinfeld.

  58. Alrighty Gang. Enough is enough is enough is enough!!!

    Let's not have a WWIII about this, seriously this is getting ridiculous. Are we really going to make this a legitamate argument?? We are just giving fuel to the idiotic paelo people- "people following Matt's diet have anger issues- must be from all those carbs…"

    Everyone, you are rightfully justified in what you are saying. I can see where you are coming from, and everyone has made some very valid points. I will admit, however, that I have to kinda agree with Organism as a whole that some of the recent comments made in previous posts were inappropriate, especially to newcomers like me, who are not familiar with the site and found them a little derogatory. Its a good thing that Matt's posts are so good, because I was a little turned off by what his followers were saying…

    We are all here together on a quest to health, and while a good dose of humor never hurt anyone (in fact I think it does quite the opposite), let's keep it real. And lets stop the bickering and the biting each other (no cannbolism please). There is no need to divide- we can agree that Matt has done a phenomenal job in his research and studies. Let's enjoy each other's company and support each other. I got y'alls back!!

    and the family feud over!!! love y'all

  59. First time posting over here.
    Thank you Matt for your research.
    I am a staunch WAPFer for 2 years now, as far as whole real foods are concerned, raw milk being one for sure.

    So I have had a super low temp for years, 97.2, had more then a few miscarriages since getting married 4 years ago, and made occasional progress on losing weight.
    4 months ago, I started taking Dr Rons desicated thyroid and was thrilled to find I had real energy for the first time in many years.

    Your Ebook has been very helpful.
    I have been over feeding so to speak, for two weeks now, have gained a bit of weight and as of today, day 4 of a new cycle, have a temp of 98.2.

    I have been doing 8 minutes of weight training every other day for a week now as well, and enjoying doing it fully.

    THe only concern I have is that I have been anovulatory ever since I started taking the thyroid.
    I cannot function if I stop taking it, and I hope its just coincidence on the timing.
    Hopefully I will be able to work my way off the thyroid someday.

    I am 35 years old, and desparate to have at least one baby.

    I would appreciate any other suggestions you can make.
    Paula, in Alaska

  60. Sorry Im off topic but I have some concerns. I am diabetic and I am on the HED diet for the most part. I have stopped smoking cigars cold turkey, coffee cold turkey and all forms of fructose as well as fruit and I am just trying to eat well. I do eat an obcene amount of butter at breakfast (a full stick when it is said and done)Is that bad? I am former low carber so I have lost all fear of butter. I am trying to wean myself off of bacon but my biggest concern is milk. Do I really have to quit? I am diabetic so I know I have to take extra measures but I feel like stanley spadowski having his mop ripped from his hands by RJ Fletcher, "NO PLEASE ITS ALL I HAVE" I never thought I was hooked on milk until I tried to quit. Also I live in the south so no raw milk for milk, well, its possible but there is like underground railroad of paranoid rebel dairy farmers you have to locate and drive 60 miles to find. Also I am eating this Ezeikel bread, more specificly the rasin cinnamon kind and I just know I am not suppose to have that either. Well that was a rambeling mess! Any advice for the nube?

  61. Getting something off your chest is valid expression. So to banter and flirting.
    Each to their own.
    Amongst other things then, this blog an outlet for free expression, and that aint bad at all.
    Should the nectar run dry, theres always other flowers to drink from.

  62. Getting something off your chest is valid expression. So to banter and flirting.
    Each to their own.
    Amongst other things then, this blog an outlet for free expression, and that aint bad at all.
    Should the nectar run dry, theres always other flowers to drink from.

  63. One thing that makes Matt's theories win out time and time again over all else is that they just make sense. Eat good food to appetite and get lots of rest, don't push the body too hard. All the minutiae that comes with it is exactly that, just trying to figure out some other little details in the puzzle of health and weight regulation.

    As for Peat's stuff it is a bit silly really. I think Peat has some valid points but it is really a case of take what is useful and disgard the rest. Just look at Andrew's diet at laproline, 1100 calories of orange juice a day…. why and who would want to do that? Most of us love food and would not want to waste that much of our daily intake on fluid, it feels good to chew and taste!

    As for organism as a whole's comments, they are interesting and I can see what he is getting at. Saying this I don't think the "flirting" is of any harm and is quite amusing yet can be banal, but probably do scare off 180 newbies. Chief's comments seriously brought down the quality of the comments section along with Matt being more sporadic in his responses, as his responses are what make the comments flow and actually stick the topic…..

    This is a great post though Matt, simular to what stephan put up at wholehealthsource. Thanks

  64. "As for Peat's stuff it is a bit silly really. I think Peat has some valid points but it is really a case of take what is useful and disgard the rest. Just look at Andrew's diet at laproline, 1100 calories of orange juice a day…. why and who would want to do that? Most of us love food and would not want to waste that much of our daily intake on fluid, it feels good to chew and taste!"

    How is Peat's stuff silly? It is no sillier than Matt's or Stephan's. It works for a lot of people, including people who tried lots of other approaches, including Matt's, without success. You say that Peat is case of "take what is useful and discard the rest," but there is nothing novel in saying that; that principle has been true of all thinkers and intellectuals since the beginning of time.

    Yes, you call Peat's "stuff" silly and then you criticize Andrew for using an approach that he has put a lot of thought into and is actually working for him, unlike the numerous other things he has tried. Criticizing people without context is vacuous and does noting to promote dialogue. One might go far as saying it is, in fact…silly!

  65. Hey Matt,

    My temp went back down again. I cheated the day it went up I had a sugar day and ate half a carton of ice cream. Me and my gf got into a fight. I have to say it was the highest it ever was but then fell back down after 2 or 3 days fell down to hypo range..

  66. The fat building effect on following generations of high LA omega-6 diet has been seen with mice (epigenetics?) but do you have any proof for this claim:

    "omega 6 fat accumulates in our cells and tissues and continues to pile on generation after generation."

    If you think how we get started it is quite difficult to me to understand how omega-6 fat can accumulate generation after generation.

    I thought that tissue omega-6 LA will mirror the dietary LA and omega-6 AA is a marker of inflammatory activity. Dietary LA seems to be quite poor marker for tissue AA.

  67. Is it ok if I listen to the Divinyls while I read this blog?

  68. @ yo

    Whose blog are you reading? Who said you should give up milk and butter? Personally I don't tolerate dairy, so I wouldn't eat those, and I fare better with far less fat than you, but if you do well on it… why not…

  69. My 2 cents: seems people loves to make drastic distintion between diet theories (raw/cooked; meat/vegan; Matt/Peat??)

    Matt and Peat ideas are practically the same. Is just a matter of food choice (at the end be it starch or be it sugar always of carbs we are talking about)

    Here Peat reply to my question of an example of his daily menu:

    ===Morning, milk (18 ounces) with coffee, orange juice, eggs; mid-day, milk, coffee, orange juice, cheese, smoked oysters; early evening, ox-tail soup, orange juice (or tropical fruit when it's available), milk; late evening, cheese, milk, ice cream.

    (were is all this refined sugar ???)


  70. Yo-
    If you are a type 2 diabetic with insulin resistance as the root cause of it, you'll probably overcome the insulin resistance better by displacing some of that butter with whole starchy root vegetables, whole, intact grains, and veggies.

    And thanks for the UHF analogy. That scene always brings a tear to my eye. Look forward to my next post, "Lesbian Nazi Hookers, Abuducted by Aliens and Forced Into Weight Loss Programs"


    You hit the jackpot with that Medicare pdf. Saved to favorites.


    That's been my experience as well, to an extent. I mean, 3 years ago fruit would cause me to break out with acne. Now it doesn't. I attribute that partly to the idea behind RRARF, and partly to really minimizing PUFA in my diet.


    It's my understanding from what I've gathered from Bill Lands that LA consumption levels are a fairly reliable predictor of cellular AA – reliable enough for him to create a mathematical model predicting what AA:EPA ratios will look like given certain intakes of LA and ALA/fish oil omega 3 supplementation. As for what is inherited, cellular composition – once again, as far as I understand, something that is passed down. There's no doubt an American infant has way more AA:EPA than a Japanese infant.

    Omega 3-

    Omega 3 does displace omega 6, and probably is a useful tool in ridding the body of excess omega 6 accumulation IF, in conjunction with that, you are also reducing your omega 6 intake. Supplementation should probably go from high in the first few weeks and then descend essentially to no omega 3 supplementation after several months to a year of trying to clear out excess omega 3 accumulation. Long-term, small amounts of both omega 3 and 6 is probably ideal.




    You might try overfeeding while simultaneously weaning yourself off the thyroid if it is really making you anovulatory.

    Hawaii Girl-

    Since we're talking progesterone, you might try progesterone cream from day 12-26 of your cycle. I hear that can make a big difference in PMS symptoms, and is cheap, relatively safe, and very accessible. In talking about omega 6 accumulation, it should also be acknowledged that many modern humans are bathing in a sea of excess estrogen – and progesterone is like Stallone, arm-wrestling estrogen which is like that bald trucker dude he goes over the top on. Sorry. Bad analogy. Forgot you weren't a 12-year old guy when that movie came out.

    Kitchen Recovery-

    Great name. Not sure about that product. Always skeptical and apprehensive of such things, but don't know enough to say either way.

  71. AT-

    Peat has once claimed to eat a pint of Haagen Daz ice cream every day. Orange juice is not refined sugar, but many treat it as such.

    But yes, good point. It still baffles me that those who see me as a stubborn dogmatist and are the quickest to write me off are those who follow Peat most closely.

    But I have always been more "traditional diet" slanted, and thus recommend the high starch to sugar ratio found in every healthy agrarian society – as well as modern "Paleo" areas like Kitava or tuber-lovin' places in South America.



  72. Hey Matt, why you up so late? I actually already use John Lee's progesterone cream. Also has no effect, at least on the cramps and arthritic pain. Although I was reading that estrogen suppresses arthritis symptoms (but perhaps it's only in people who actually have arthritis) so maybe I should be licking some BPA and chowing on soy. The only potential info I've found is that maybe the endometrial lining isn't disposed of properly, which then causes an antibody effect. And they threw around the words interleukin-6 and cytokines, so I was hoping you (or somebody) would have some info.

    But my body has always gone for the crazed hyper-immune reaction to everything.

    And I've been fairly PUFA free since May, although that may not be long enough, considering I was doing the raw diet (ie nuts are our main food) before that.

    Never did like Stallone, but if you can come up with a good Arnold example, I'll catch your drift.

  73. Matt,

    One more question I forgot earlier, but asked in a previous post taht wasn't answered. You've spoken about 'that whiche xacerbates often heals,' and I've recently had a good experience with a homeopathic remedy for my dog. Homeopathy is based on that principle- like cures like. Something which in a healthy individual produces certain responses will in an individual suffering from those symptoms alleviate them.

    An explanation I came across that makes sense to me is: the body's symptoms are a part of the healing response to whatever stressors you're under. When you see that 'dis-ease' as really the body's wise attempts to heal, and you support it with something that helps you to heal, or respond, in just the same way, you help along teh process back to balance.

    Just wondering if you have any thoughts about/experience with homeopathy. It's pretty divisive and commonly labeled quackery, but at least somewhat unfairly I think.

    Off-topic, sure, but I wanted your take.

  74. Rob-

    I like the idea of homeopathy and from a testimonial standpoint, I've heard mostly "didn't do anythings" with an occassional "really helped."

    However, since homeopathic remedies are so benign this makes it worth trying with any true, nagging health problem. It falls under the can't hurt, might help category which is more than I can say for many supplements and nearly all medications.

    Hawaii Girl-

    Don't like Stallone either, but that shouldn't take anything away from Over the Top, which was pretty money at the age I watched it.

    I had read, I believe, in James Wilson's Adrenal Fatigue that he's found progesterone cream to be effective that way. As usual though, sounds like it ain't. If simple remedies worked like all health authors hyped them up to be there wouldn't be an ill person on earth.

    Ah good old interleukin-6.

    Are you still trying some hard exercise from time to time with plenty of recovery? It took me a month or so, but my levels of physical pain have definitely dropped after a month of a little strength training. It seems to have pumped up my adrenal activity, and them good ol' corticosteroids are the best anti-inflammatory/anti-allergy substance on earth.

    That's one thing I'm thinking about lately. The idea of RRARF is to rest the adrenals fully for a month, which is plenty of time to get whatever you are going to get out of it, out of it (from an adrenal standpoint). Then, upon resuming normal exercise patterns and what not, the adrenals theoretically should perform better, which in my case they certainly have as Madmuhhh and I were discussing recently.

  75. Lorelei,

    Try nettle tea (bulkherbstore.com will fix you up).

    I used to get debilitating cramps until I began drinking herbal blends of nettle, red raspberry, and a little peppermint for flavor. About 30/50/20 ratio on that. Drink a cup or two a day through out the month, then add more nettle towards the start of your period. Now, you will pass HUGE HUGE clots, like make you dizzy upon standing up from the toilet. This might happen the next two or three cycles until your uterus gets the message that it doesn't need to hold onto its' stuffing. If the clot-dropping is too scary for you, use less nettle (takes about 12 hours to stop the effect).

    Now I am cramp-free except a little twinge or two at the start.

  76. Forgot to add about the arthritic condition:

    bulkherbstore.com has directions for making a calcium "tea" from egg shells, specifically for arthritis.

  77. A lot of people that use to take part in arguments seem to comment less frequently perhaps because everyone got tired of the same exact series of comments in every post (about starch and sugar).

    It's impossible to develop a discussion with most people who closely follow Peat because they simply use quotes of his to make their points.

    I do miss idea discussions in the comment section though as they have gotten a bit more chirpy and fluffy as opposed to useful.

  78. DML: The comments in the Female Body Breakthrough post were probably 75% on topic. Most of what I commented on was on topic. Some people were talking about butts, but frankly Matt started it by mentioning it. Again, not that far outside of relevance to the book.

    I like the Chief, and happen to think he adds a lot to the discussion besides silliness. so lay off or I'll hit you over the head with a folding chair made of pemmican.

    I think if you look at the time period in question, which is really just the last few weeks, you'll see that Matt was out of town and hadn't commented much. When the cat's away, the mice will play with the blog comments, ok.

  79. AT, thank you for posting Peat's reply to you about his daily menu.

    Did he say what kind of cheese he eats daily?

  80. Jenny,

    I concede the most of the discussion was on topic. That is why I said SOME, and not ALL, of the comments were vacuous/vapid. I can't see how anybody with half -a-brain can read through that without rolling their eyes.

    As for Chief: I have nothing against him –in fact, I rather like the fellow– and agree that he adds value to the discussion. Nonetheless, I call it like I see it, and he was making some banal, tasteless remarks that had no point and were borderline offensive.

    Anyway, this is my last word on the subject: I have no hard feeling against anybody, and consider all of the regular commentators on this blog to add overall value to the discussion, even if sometimes some of them slip into what I perceive as mindless, somewhat offensive, banter.

  81. Just a quick comment about homeopathy – I have used it for years with my family/pets and became certified to practice with it. It is very effective when used correctly. You need to get a good book to learn how to use it and perhaps a repertory that describes the remedies and their uses. It is a very specific modality. You cannot go by the descriptions listed on the bottles. Thanks for the great site Matt.

  82. @ Lorelei,

    If you are still eating gluten containing foods, that would likely be the cause of the arthritis and cramps.

  83. LORELEI-

    I'm with Steve here. I believe that gluten could be a big part of your inflammation response.
    Try staying of it for a month and see how you go.

  84. Lori H, any recommendations on a good homeopathy book?

    I grew up with homeopathy and while I don't think it is something to rest all hope on it can definitely help….

  85. So, day 2 of refeeding from fast. I took my basal temp this morning and… 98.2F. I never bothered to check it during the fast because I was certain it would drop and I did feel cooler (my feet would've been lumps of ice without constant warm baths), but surprised to see it's already back to normal after just one day of sugar refeeding.

    Had some acne break out overnight and my skin felt oddly dry this morning (was fine throughout the fast). Otherwise today has been much like yesterday, I added in some yoghurt with all the fruit and started eating at 8am, but it's still been hard to cram down more than 2500 kcal.

    Feet were pretty cold this morning, but then around 11am things started to heat up and circulation has been really good all day since, my feet are positively hot right now. I am in general feeling quite a bit warmer now than prior to the fast.

    There is one claim often made by fasting gurus that wound healing greatly speeds up during fasting, due to growth hormone release or some such. Well, just prior to my fast I had a small cut on my finger from a piece of glass which had formed a painful crust tissue. This crust persisted throughout all 11 days of fasting, and just now on my second day of refeeding it has practically vanished completely. It is possible that fasting does something else that sets the stage for better and faster healing afterwards, like eliminating tumorous growths and damaged cells, cleaning up blood vessels, and repairing the digestive tract to optimize nutrient absorption, but there really doesn't appear to be much peripheral tissue repair going on during the actual fast.

  86. Hey Matt,

    Wondering what your opinion is of duck fat. I use quite a bit of it since coconut oil doesn't seem to agree with me. According to nutritiondata.com it's got roughly half the polyunsaturates of chicken fat but still has about a 10:1 ratio with omega-3. I'm still taking fish oil at this point but I'm wondering if I should start moving away from both of them in favour of, maybe, beef tallow.
    Any thoughts?

  87. "An explanation I came across that makes sense to me is: the body's symptoms are a part of the healing response to whatever stressors you're under. When you see that 'dis-ease' as really the body's wise attempts to heal, and you support it with something that helps you to heal, or respond, in just the same way, you help along teh process back to balance."

    Rob A,
    one further view on 'dis-ease' is thus:
    The body has inbuilt healing and regeneration abilities, or Wisdom of Body. It always has solutions to threats and stressors.
    In this light even a tumour can be seen as WOB dealing with a particular circumstance.
    That's not to say that a situation can't change as background factors change, but the body continues to do its thing maintaining stasis – to the best of its ability with the energies at its disposal – regardless.
    It is thought (or 'I') that is ill at ease with situation. Or 'dis-eased'.
    For example, it is not uncommon for cancer patients who have been told that they only have 'x' amount to live and that there is nothing conventional medicine can do, when 'healing' takes place in the thought processes, whereby the battle against the body ceases, and so thinking falls in sync with bodily functioning, as opposed to continual wrestling with WOB, and how things 'should' be.
    Long term remission is not uncommon.
    There is much to be said for healing 'dis-ease', irrespective of ailment, and that's where a range of meditation/yogic/contemplative practices become useful.

  88. Have to throw in on homeopathy here. Matt, you're all about solid science. The science behind homeopathy makes no sense. Even accepting the dubious idea that "like cures like," the concentrations of the active substances are soooo minute that there's usually no detectable amount in the homeopathic preparation. The theory is that the water or whatever somehow "remembers" the substance after it is completely diluted away.

    It drives me *batshit* that this stuff sits on shelves in pharmacies as if there's any science behind it whatsoever.

    All right, carry on.

  89. Hey Chris – go to homeopathic.com to find all kinds of books to help you. If you want to do this right, get a good Materia Medica and Homeopathic Medical Repertory. I do not want to start a discussion on homeopathy – I know people either love it or hate it. My personal experience in making it part of many other methologies that I use, is that I have seen many people and animals get well.

  90. Matt – I started doing Tabatas about 3 months ago (thanks for that post), and I now do 2 4-min rounds 4-5 times a week. We do push up burpees (like the video) or squats while holding weights, so it's body resistance weight training mostly. That's about all I can handle, besides walking. I can't say my adrenals are doing any much better, but I suspect I was born w/out adrenal function, looking back over my life, so I have a loooong way to go. That's why I started super-supplementing recently a la Wilson's Adrenal Health suggestions. I'm actually thinking of doing isocort. Where's JT??? Probably somewhere in sugar shock.

    After two years as a raw foodist, starch kicks fruit's butt. I can only say that after 6 months on starch though. And, sigh, starch has made me fat in the belly when fruit kept me thin (hello insulin resistance!). But I eat as much as I want and don't gain now, so the turnaround should be coming.

    One more question on Wilson- he thinks eating MORE protein is good to recover your adrenals… I'm sure you've suggested the opposite?

    Veiled Glory – the idea of more clots scares me! When I still had allergies, I took nettle pills daily. Do you think that would be supposed to have the same effect? I have never been w/out cramps, even on the pill. The calcium idea is a new one though. I've learned to live with the cramps, it's the menstrual-induced arthritis that really has to go. Sick of auto-immune crap!

    Steve and Sheila – I did two months gluten free w/ no effect. But it was part of a couple month no to low carb push. Which messed me up in a lot of other ways. Since then I often will go two to three weeks at a time gluten free with no obvious effect. I would like to be able to blame gluten, in fact I really want to blame gluten – it would make life easy to know the "cause"! But my experience isn't showing that gluten affects me. Sigh… Then again, maybe once my adrenal health picks up a little, going gluten free my show a difference.

    Rob A – here's my experience w/ homeopathy. I had a return of an auto-immune problem (as all mine are) called erythema neurdosum. At this point I was past reg doctors, so I went to a naturopath. He was all about homeopathy, which, as I biochemist, I really didn't believe in. But he had no other advice, and I'd paid the money, so I tried it, expecting zip zero zilch. Instead, I got worse. Significantly worse, until I stopped taking it. A placebo effect would make you better, not worse! I'm not really sure what that means as to its effectiveness, but it did do something. On the other hand, homeopathy did squat for the son's bedwetting and the the daughter's allergies.

  91. Sorry, had to add to sugar vs starch, mwah hah hah hah hah.

  92. There are over 27,000 different homeopathic remedies on the market. In order to use the remedies effectively, you need the proper information to find the correct remedy. So, when I look up bedwetting, I find well over 80 remedies that correspond with that issue. This is why homeopathics can be hard to use. Also, you need to use the correct potency. You can have the correct remedy but the wrong potency and not get the desired result.

  93. @maggieo – the idea that there's no science behind homeopathy is incorrect. "Science" involves observing a phenomenon and formulating a hypothesis on why that phenomenon exists, then testing that hypothesis. The idea that homeopathy "can't work because it's just water" isn't science at all. It's denying that the observed phenomenon, in this case that homeopathic remedies heal, exists. Closing your eyes, plugging your ears and stamping your feet insisting that no one is getting results because it "can't work" is not science.

    If you want to find science backing up homeopathy I suggest checking out one of the many peer-reviewed journals that exist dedicated to the science of homeopathy. These researchers are so far beyond the "does it work?" question they put deniers to shame.

  94. Matt,first off i would like to personally thank you for opening my eyes to the higher protein to carb ratio in the morning for better cortisol control(I think cortisol).I am so screwed in this regard that I need to eat a 4 to 1 ration in favor of protein to function like a normal person.If I go 2:1 I feel worse….and goodness gracious all my years of eating 1:1 ration and feeling like I was dying every morning.Maybe you can figure out why I cannot for the life of me eat a pure protein meal without feeling like I will keel over though. ;)

    Ok,that said I just wanna give this tidbit to maybe help another on your blog posts thingamajig.I see people with these scabs all over their legs and I have it also.I posted on a doctor visited forum about it but no one knew what I was talking about.Its like cuts that scab over and happens mostly on the legs from what I see.And the cure is………………………………………………………………………..Coconut oil!!

    I spread some on my legs and its gone.The very next day I have no scabs on my legs and just red blotches were the scabs were.Also I now slather up tons of coconut oil on my whole body every morning and my skin looks much better for it.It does not grease your skin at all!!!I actually add some normal hand lotion to my face because the CO makes my skin look to matte…no joke.

    I also took two tablespoons internally and at work ran to the bathroom with severe diarreha.I swear I started sweating and feeling all hot when those cramps came on also.Its a known antifungal so I must be fungy.

    Finally,I have been looking rather drab recently with a gray look to my skin.I keep thinking WTF am I doing different that I go through this gray phase and then look vibrant and then gray.It dawned on me just now that its vitamins.I buy a bottle and slowly look better….bottle runs out and I turn gray over a months time.Just for laughs I checked my main foods and found them lacking in vitamins/minerals.I eat a ton of eggs/butter and corn tortillas as they are simply what I crave.

    Keep it going……..

  95. Don't want to hijack the blog for this, but honestly: my mind is wide open to any rational explanation for how *nothing* in a solution of water can heal. Bring it!

    By the way, I'm in Week 8 of Cosgrove's program, and my thighs are like ROCKS — big huge rocks, unfortunately. My jeans are actually feeling tight in the thigh, which I don't remember ever happening before (I'm fattest around the waist). But damn, my posture is better, and I can do 12 guy pushups — I used to struggle with one. Still loving it.

  96. @Lorelei
    If you've had babies, then the clots are no bigger than post-partum clean-up. Once you've had a cycle or two of clot clearance, you'll go back to normal. According to the herbal understanding, the uterus makes extra tough linings in response to mineral deficiencies. Then the cramps are a symptom of the uterus trying to do its routine with a resistant lining.

    Calcium and magnesium are essential to keep balanced in these cases. Capsules of dried herb generally do not release the minerals/nutrients. Tea/infusions are the way to go.

    BTW – I am an herbalist student. :-)

  97. Great article as usual! I can attest to it too. It was super easy to up my basal body temperature. It happened almost immediately when I began RRARF and the temps have stayed up since so long as I keep eating plenty.

    February I will reach the 33 week mark and hopefully I will begin to loose weight or hunger by then. Currently, as soon as I reduce my food intake in the least my hunger shoots up and body temp drops, so I have to keep eating to fullness and beyond for now.

    I grew up using margarine for sure….Chance-less from the get go….

    Matt are you saying that it is likely to take us several years of avoiding Omega 6 fats before we can feel the healing anti inflammatory effects of our efforts? Good to know in that case so I don't start eating more Omega 6 three years from now. lol…

    Also you've seen vegan diets give the lowest basal body temperatures. Would you say it's bad to be vegan even for a few days a week?
    Lisa :)

  98. Lorelei aka Hawaiigirl

    I feel your pain. I've had period cramps from hell all my life. I've never been able to find anything that helps against them part form heavy duty prescription pain meeds that fry your liver. lol…

    Please let me know if you find anything that helps. I feel like I've tried everything there is to try by now, including nettle tea….

  99. Organism as a Whole

    I hear you referring to me as a flirting groupie. This has occurred on one other occasion too. I can understand from your perspective how you can see it that way. I guess it must make you feel quite jealous with Matt. I think that I understand you correctly by saying that, but do feel free to let me know if I misunderstand.

    However, this is how I see it: it really makes me feel angry when you say that I am "a flirting groupie" because it is very demeaning to me as a person to be defined not only as a woman first, but as someone who is willing to prostitute herself in order to be seen with a rock star. I feel that the comparison couldn't be further from the truth from my perspective.

    I would appreciate if you would not refer to me in this manner in the future and I will continue to do the same for you. :)

    Also for the sake of the other women you list, I cannot speak for them as I don't know how they feel about being called these names, but as a fellow woman I react against you defining us as at best here for sexual flirtation reasons and worst as prostitutes. Please refrain from doing this in the future. This site is supposed to be a healing place for all genders and races and I would like to see everyone feel welcome here and not be called demeaning names. Even if my name was not included in this list I would feel offended as a woman participating on this blog.

    I am here for health reasons. This is a serous matter for me. Of course I welcome jokes etc but not jokes that are racist, sexist or homophobic.

    I understand that you likely don't mean anything bad with you comment and I know you too are going through a difficult time with your health, but please I would appreciate a more respectful language and this can be an opportunity for you to see how your words can impact society.

  100. Matt, quick question

    If someone doesnt want to do a full on force feed RRARF diet, but eat a modest 2500-3000 cals and put on some weaight steadily, will this doom them? To recover your metabolism do you have to force feed as much as you can, or is it just a way to speed up the recovery, and a more modest approach would most likely just take more time?

  101. Definition of a "Real Man":
    Someone who makes an observation/criticism, listens to the response and then shows up with HIS response to others feelings and thoughts.

    ….** crickets**….. I don't see OAAW anywhere.. hmmm..

  102. Thanks Lori H and dugdeep,

    It bugs me when people criticize something on an incorrect basis. When you say 'homeopathy doesn't work' because it's not done something that its practitioners would also aseert it wouldn't do, that doesn't prove your point.
    A recent Mercola article pointed out that conventional medicine, supposedly the 'science-based' stuff, often isn't: http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2010/11/05/lies-damned-lies-and-medical-science.aspx

    Plus the nasty political history of the formation of the American Medical Association, and its explicit attempts to undermine homeopathy and bolster allopathic medicine encourage me to look into why many physicians 150 years ago adopted homeopathy in their practice. None of this proves homeopathy is effective, but it does at least point out the sometimes unfair measuring stick that's used against it.

    And echoing dugdeep- we don't necessarily have to know the mechanism by which a phenomenon occurs in order to observe it. We may not yet have a full picture of what's at play, but we shouldn't be so presumptuous as to believe that we know everything of importance, and if we don't know it yet, it's not there. But, to wager a guess, some have proposed that an energetic imprint of some sort imprints itself upon the distilled water/alcohol, and leaves behind a trace. A simple mechanical reaction amongst molecules may not be the only way that information gets conveyed.

    Again, the main point is: not currently understanding the mechanism at work doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

    Back to thyroid madness…

  103. Kidding- a bit more…

    here's an idea, maggiep- if e=mc2, and you divide out the c2, then each unit of matter has a whole lot of energy to it. Possibly then, something of nearly inconsequential mass might still have a capacity to instigate response due to its energetic quality.


  104. Matt, I think it's funny that what you teach is completely opposite of Dr Fuhrman, whose diet I used to try to follow, and whose forum I was on. This is what he has been saying about metabolism:

    It possibly is from a reduction in your metabolic rate and metabolism from eating healthier (and less). It is noted in animals when they are fed less they age slower, live much longer and their body temperatures run a little colder. This is a good thing, not a bad thing. There is lots written about this on these forums. In general, people tolerate the heat better and he cold not as well, when they eat a more plant-based (tropical) diet. So you have to dress warmer, when you are feeling cold.
    Remember, we don't want to speed up our metabolism so we can eat more food and not become fat, we want to slow down our metabolism so we can eat less food and not become too thin. You have to understand this sentence.

  105. Whoa, I jumped into a mess here. I was kinda upset my name wasn't listed in with the groupies. I promise to try and be more flirtatious (throwing a roundhouse kick, flipping my doo).

    C'mon! What's wrong with Sly? I used to run around the block after watching Rocky and blow up our cat after Rambo. I had the official Over the Top arm wrestling table. If you're gonna talk about him I'd rather you do it elsewhere.

  106. Johnny Lawrence you are a breath of fresh air!

    Kitchen Recovery: Bitchin' name I agree btw.. This is the same fraggernackle bull shit that many Raw Food gurus promote.
    It goes something like this ".. when you get your body Cleaner by eating 100% raw vegan foods and juicing(and enemas, and colonics etc etc), you will notice you will have less appetite…..people should only eat two meals a day and those should be small, ideally mono meals (one type of food only say, apples)… "

    No wonder the raw dudes look like concentration camp survivors and the raw girls all get thyroid and other health issues, including no periods.

    It's a crying shame what goes on in the name of health or alledged health.

    Why can't people just Eat The Food???

    Lady Haga

  107. Hey Lady Haga,
    'fraggernackle', what a word!!!

  108. haha, love it. Thanks Debbie. I know, I've been jumping back and forth between that world and WAPF world for several years. It's a mess.
    It makes me sad when I read on the forums (and raw forums, too) all the people that post about how they are always COLD! And then they are told, oh it's normal, it's good, just eat warming foods like cayenne and ginger. LOL

  109. @kitchen Recovery,
    WAPF works really well, as long as you can keep in mind that a super high fat diet is only needed in extreme cold climates.
    If I spent more time outside in winter here in Alaska, then I think I would bump my fat intake back up to 70%.
    But, I think I will stay at a lower amount now, and eat high on outdoor activity days, like snowshoeing or snow machining.

    I think most people fail to realize that Dr Price studied many climates and cultures. He was very clear on the differences.
    Its the foundation that has messed up his message.

  110. @Steve,

    "Its the foundation that has messed up his message."

    In what ways have they messed it up?


  111. Veiled Glory – cool about being an herbalist. Herbalism is something I believe in. Except for xrays, I've cured me, the dogs, and the kids of all kinds of things for well over four years w/out allopathic drs, thanks to herbs and real food. Earthclinic.com is my favorite place in the world. I'd like to be an herbalist when I grow up. Or at least when my kids are bigger.

    Didn't know it has to be tea. Sigh. I hate teas of any kind, herbal or otherwise. But I'll try it. Is it the actual minerals in nettles, or something else? Cause I do the Magnesium Calm drink. So are licorice pills a waste too then? Or ashwaganda?

    Lisa E – I was a little surprised to see myself on the groupie list too, but hey. I was just going to ignore it, Organism has occasionally had some verrrry unique contributions since I've been around. But you had a classy response. Oops, now I'm flirting with you.

  112. @DML – this post contains silliness. Please ignore.

    Re: Homeopathy – hey, if you cure your dog with a "like cures like" homeopathic remedy, I guess that's "hair of the dog", right?

    Homeopathic medicine IS A PLACEBO.

    That's not to say that some herbal remedies, such as Bach flower remedies, don't work. Hell, there's plenty of evidence that drinking your own pee works. But this dilute-it-until-there's-nothing-left bullshit has been proven, by science,, to be a placebo.

    Re: sugar vs starch – Yeah, maybe it's all glucose in your bloodstream, but it ain't all glucose in your bowel. You need to nourish your intestinal buddies.

  113. "It possibly is from a reduction in your metabolic rate and metabolism from eating healthier (and less). It is noted in animals when they are fed less they age slower, live much longer and their body temperatures run a little colder. This is a good thing, not a bad thing. There is lots written about this on these forums. In general, people tolerate the heat better and he cold not as well, when they eat a more plant-based (tropical) diet. So you have to dress warmer, when you are feeling cold.
    Remember, we don't want to speed up our metabolism so we can eat more food and not become fat, we want to slow down our metabolism so we can eat less food and not become too thin. You have to understand this sentence."

    That comment is retarded. Nobody should listen to this guy. People with a slow metabolism will be the first that die, when a virus goes about.
    The aging thing is also wrong.

  114. I'm not sure what the hurry is in re-feeding upon completion of a longer fast. It can be problematic at best and dangerous at its worst when eating a load of food of any type coming off a fast, especially a water fast.

    Its normal not to be hungry at the end of fast. For someone who is really using fasting as part of a disease recovery protocol, true hunger is a sign that it is time to break the fast. Most people are not not fasting like that nor should they.

    When it comes to fasting it is best to think of eating as exercise. If you have been out of the gym for awhile, its not very wise to jump back into exercise by going all out at your previous levels before taking a break. Ease into it. Let your body re-adjust to food again. A few days of under-eating will in no way slow your progress. In fact it will keep you from potentially undermining whatever benefits you may have received from your water fast.

  115. I'd like to add a few of my thoughts to the whole homeopathy and science discussion.

    First of all, I agree with whoever said that just because we cannout explain a phenomenom with the scientific knowledge we have today, does not automatically render it nonexistent.
    Chemical reactions are unbelievable complex, and so is the structure of a molecule and all the processes that are going on inside it. The greater our knowledge about physics, chemistry etc. gets, the more complex the world and its building blocks seem to be.
    Is any single one of us qualified to say with 100% certainty that there may not be some kind of chemical/energetic/whatever-residues left in the water/alcohol that is used in homeopathy? Hell, no!

    I really don't like the attitude of many people, who seem to think that everything that cannot be proven by our contemporary methods of science, is automatically false.
    Another example would be the concept of Chi. Science is still baffled by what exactly chi is, whether it really exist and what exactly it does. Does that mean Chi does not exist? You certainly can believe that, but I think that would be naive in its very own way. Whether it's in medicine, martial arts or somewhere else, there are phenomena out there, which cannot be explained by science (yet). And by ignoring something like that, just because it is not 100% proven, you are, in my opinion. depriving your own model of the world and blocking of all the benefits that those unproven things could bring to you.

    Apart from that I really cannot understand why people are so focused on being right. I'd rather stick with what works than with what is true any time. In my opinion the person who believes that homeopathy might work and experiences some benefits from it while being sick, even if it's just a placebo effect, is way better of then someone who thinks homeopathy is nonsense and won't be able to experience some kind of healing from it when being sick. (That said, if there is a placebo effect, there also has to be an anti-placebo effect. If you believe that something won't work, it probably wont.)
    In the end there is nothing you can buy form being right. We never will be able to comprehend the truth in an objective way anyways (I already wrote about that some time ago) and apart from short gratification, being right really does not give you much as opposed to what works.
    I know this sounds rather extreme, and in general, aiming for the truth is the right way to go, but we also have to keep in mind that there are limits and we never will be able to fully understand the world anyways.

    Also, all those comments basically have been reinforcing my beliefs about homeopathy that I already had. That there is some truth behind that whole concept and that it is a viable treatment in many ways, but that there is also a lot of quackery and false information out there, when it comes to putting it into practice.

    Oh, and one last thing that just came to my mind. Homeopathy obviously seems to work on other animals to some degree, probably better than it does one humans. Humans are able to believe that something will or wont work. Animals are not, or at least I don't think they do when being given komeopathic medicine. So shouldn't the fact that it seems to work rather well on animals be a strong indication that homeopathy does work and maybe would work even better if us humans wouldn't always have our doubts about everything? That is an interesting idea in my opinion.

  116. So I have a question…

    A lot of the theme of this blog and stuff I've been researching lately indicate how ineffective dieting is for weight loss. Ultimately, the metabolism slows down, the body adapts, the dieter eventually has to refeed, and now the dieter is at a higher body weight/fat percentage.

    Would it be reasonable to assume the opposite may also be true? I.e. the "dieter" overeats (on nutrient dense food) instead of undereats, possibly to the point of near unpleasantness for a few weeks or months. Then, the metabolism speeds up, the body adapts, and eventually the "dieter" has to take a break. And now the "dieter" is at a lower body weight/fat percentage.

    Maybe this is already what's supposed to happen with HED or the Gabriel Method. Just weight loss would be slow, since healing can be slow, whereas damage can happen quickly. By the way, has anybody "turned the corner" yet so to speak?

  117. Tezza,

    I said in my last post I was leaving my last word on the matter, but I reserve the right to respond when someone misrepresents and strawmans my position.

    I have nothing against "silliness." Banal, tasteless, pointless stupidity is another matter, however. Especially on a site that has always, up to now anyway, been known for the quality of the comments. I think this is a very important distinction to make, and I am making such a ruckus over it because I do not want to see the comment section of 180 dragged into the gutter!

    There, that should clear up the misrepresentation.


    Good comment. I enjoyed reading it!

  118. @Ian,
    This is Paula, not Steve ;o)
    WAPF has a tendancy to push a high fat diet without qualifying it.
    Like I said, many WAPFers think that they have to get 70-80% of their calories from fat, in order to follow the "diet" correctly, but this is simply not true.
    It is not an across the board thing.
    Cold climates where you spend lots of time outside (like if I was a dog musher) would leave me wide open to eating that high. But if I lived in Florida, I would drop that much lower.

    I used to be a WAPF chapter leader, so I have been around the block with the inside ;o)


  119. "Now take a moment to think of these pre-civilized people 10,000 years ago before the cultivation of grains. I hope by now you are convinced they did not suffer from cancer. These people ate a ketogenic diet. Think about pre-grain, pre-potatoes, pre-milk—where were the carbohydrates? They ate seventy percent animal foods, a little bit of seeds and nuts, a few vegetables that they could find, honey when they could chase off the bees. And we know that they favored the animal fats rather than the proteins. Their main fuel was ketones. Our whole notion of the right diet for cancer patients today is backwards. The knee-jerk dietary prescription for cancer patients is a lowfat, high-carbohydrate diet. But the primary fuel for many human groups is ketones, and the backup fuel is glucose. Glucose as a fuel source would have been used in an emergency—to sprint away from a dangerous situation, for example. It is essentially an anaerobic backup system that produces lactic acid and acidosis and is only meant to be used for a brief period of time." – Thomas cowan

    Just like how the kitavans use starches and fruit for a brief period of their whole lives.

    Among many other glistening turds of information available from the WAPF.

  120. Greensmu:

    "Among many other glistening turds of information available from the WAPF."

    LOL! Funny! And rather apt!

  121. Aaron F said:

    "Maybe this is already what's supposed to happen with HED or the Gabriel Method. Just weight loss would be slow, since healing can be slow, whereas damage can happen quickly. By the way, has anybody "turned the corner" yet so to speak?"

    Hope not to jinx it, by speaking up too soon but I feel I maybe have turned a corner this week. I've lost a couple of pounds, clothes are fitting better, I'm eating more, I feel warm even though the weather is cold. This after last week of feeling horrible because I'd backslid massively at Halloween and ate a ton of sugar and had sinus headaches, acne, dry, red flakey skin, constipation–all problems I thought I'd pwnd. Maybe it was the big backslide followed by the renewed determination to RRARF that did it. I don't know. Maybe it was just reading about metabolic exercise in Rachel's Cosgrove's book that did it. (Like Jon Gabriel suggests that you can actually get the metabolic boost of exercise by thinking about it when you're not exercising.)

  122. @ Greensmu,
    Don't knock WAPF completly. We owe them a great deal.
    I owe them so much, even though I do not agree with some things.
    They are more on track then 99% of the "experts".

  123. @Paula

    Just poking fun, no harm meant.

    They're like the Infowars of nutrition. I agree with them embarrassingly enough.

  124. I think most native tribes ate very high fat in the winter. No central heating, no down insulated clothing, no wool even…You don't need to live in the arctic to feel the effects of winter having much higher caloric requirements. I honestly think I screwed up my metabolism the winter I lived in Ireland and didn't eat enough and lived in a house that was a damp 55 degrees all the time. It wasn't what I was eating so much of the lack of it. It was the beginning of my sugar/caffeine addiction, my weight gain, lots of things. I was fat phobic for years so just introducing it into my diet again had healing effects. I've backed off from it over the summer. It's just a natural cycle I think. You don't need the calories to stay warm in the summer. Now that's its fall, I'm craving some of the things I did last fall. Yes, I have central heating etc., but I still have to spend a fair amount of time outside in Minnesota.

    The problem with walking around trying to maintain macronutrient ratios is that it isn't sustainable. Eat seasonally, eat what you crave and eat in abundance. Eventually your body will figure out the right things. I take no supplements because I think your body should be able to figure out what it needs.

  125. This is just what I was thinking.. that since I live in southern California, why the heck do I eat so much fat? I love coconut oil and butter, but I think it's time to reevaluate that stance.

    Oh, btw, I am on Jury Duty today, writing in from the glorious Superior Court of the city of Los Angeles. Quite a place for some long navel gazing and podcast catching up.

  126. Deb: If I lived in the land of fresh produce and year round sunshine, I doubt I'd be half as in to spoonbread as I am right now.

  127. WAPF is a mixed bag in terms of its "representatives." You can't draw any definitive conclusions from the chapter leaders. Cowan certainly is not representative of mainstream WAPF thinking. The best thing when dealing with WAPF folks is to listen to them with one ear with your other ear glued to a copy of NAPD.

    They get most of it right but just remember the foundation sometimes reflects to much Sally and not enough Weston.

  128. Yes, I've unfortunately met Thomas Cowan. He's insanely rude and disrespectful. It was the worst way I ever spent $200….He made me no more wise, recommended GAPS and a prescription drug and told me I was a "professional patient"….

  129. I've also heard about those rats eating less, living longer and healthier. I also know that many Russian doctors consider a lower body temperature to be preferable.

    However, today we have a health crisis with chronically ill people, overweight, diabetes, heart disease etc. We also know that overall the general population's basal body temperatures are dropping.

    If in fact it was more healthy to have a lower body temperature….why are we not seeing the general population's health improving instead of declining?

    And thank you Lorelei, you're a doll! ;)
    I encourage you to become an herbalist btw. And figure out how to cure period cramps! FAAAST!!!! lol

  130. Wow. Stellar comments. I'm just enjoying sitting back and reading this thread, but a couple stood out to me:

    Jenny said, "The problem with walking around trying to maintain macronutrient ratios is that it isn't sustainable. Eat seasonally, eat what you crave and eat in abundance. Eventually your body will figure out the right things."

    This is my mantra right now. Seriously.

    Lisa said, "If in fact it was more healthy to have a lower body temperature….why are we not seeing the general population's health improving instead of declining?"

    No kidding. I wonder about those calorie-restriction longevity studies. I think it's just the abundance of crap they *don't* eat that makes the difference.

    *On a side note, I realize this comment smacks of intellectuality, so I want to clarify that I really am just a ditzy blonde with a proclivity for unabashed flirtation. I'm sorry if I've ever mislead any of my fellow readers here by saying anything consisting of the slightest degree of intelligence.

  131. Aw Liz, a ditz after my own heart <3!

    I agree with both Jenny and Lisa, not just because they are ladies but it just makes good common sense.

    And that is where I think too many are led astry.. out of the realm of "do what makes sense" into the realm of "Do what I tell you and by the way, I happen to sell this miracle supplement/book/program/dvd/brainwashing kit!"

    Yeah, I am a little sore in that area of my wallet.

    Throwing money at my cancer is something I am done with. I prefer to throw some common sense eating and living at it.


  132. @Lorelei,

    Ashwagandha and licorice are bitter adaptogens, so are good in pill or tincture form.

    There is more to the nettle than the cal-mag balance. You may go ahead and supplement but the "whiz-bang" of the uterine cleanse won't be there.

    The tea blend I recommended is pleasant, really. You'll know if you have too much nettle by the stronger herb-y taste.

    Look up wisewoman herbal on Youtube, aka, Susun Weed. She is a wonderful, positive resource for healing.

  133. Greensmu-

    Classic. Stevaula is right. Predominantly good information that has been skewed by their status of being the primary adversary of mainstream nutrition. If the mainstream says fat is bad, saturated fat in particular, then the WAPF automatically says "eat as much butter as you can stand."

    I will say that the Masai ate by far the most saturated fat and lived in a very warm climate. I've always found that argument to be a little empty, plus starch seems to make me hotter than butter on a calorie for calorie basis.


    Agree that Fuhrman is retarded on that topic, and yes I read his blog post on that. A laboratory is a controlled environment. In the real world full of pathogens low metabolism = sick easy. On Fuhrman's diet my body temperature stayed depressed and I started to feel constipated with frequent sore throats by the end of it.

    Lisa E. –

    The word Groupie, Cult, and Guru are thrown out around here a lot, mostly to lighten everyone up. I use the word groupie to hopefully prevent people from actually becoming groupies. I want this blog filled with people who are constantly challenging their own beliefs as well as mine. I'm not the knower of all things, but someone who is dedicated to continually looking for answers, not stagnating while giving a concise but B.S. answer to everything (like Dr. Oz when he stated that African Americans have higher blood pressure because the only slaves that survived the journey to America were those who retained salt the best… WTF?).


    That is precisely the theory, but it hasn't worked out quite so smoothly. I think, in part, because many people, when they gain weight, start to panic and look to ways to get it off before it's good and ready (myself included). But the original intention was to create 180 Degree Yo-yo dieting, where you gain some fat and then lose double. I haven't given up on it.


    Let's hope so. There are also strong advocates of this sugar re-feeding concept once every week or so, which is followed by seemingly unexplained fat loss. It's not a concept I've ruled out by any means.

    Hawaii Girl-

    Yes, I've come to believe that many people are just born with hypoadrenia, probably due to somme level of burnout in the parents. Perhaps some of Wilson's protocol and supplements would be very effective. Or taking desiccated adrenal extract.

    On protein-

    Protein and potentially fat as well but to a lesser extent requires adrenal activity to breakdown. Protein must become amino acids and fats must become fatty acids and both depend on adrenal activity to pull that off. But it's been thought for a long time that excess protein is anti-metabolic. This is something mentioned by Broda Barnes and even pointed out by Bernarr MacFadden in Vitality Supreme in his chapter on the thyroid.

  134. Oh and Johnny, don't think I forgot about you.

    Don't get me wrong, there were some Stallone classics. The Rocky movies were legendary, and Over the Top was incredible. I'm very pleased that you had the official arm wrestling table.

    I hope we can still be friends… (blows Johnny a roundhouse).

  135. I would like to make clear that when I refered to 'Matt's groupies' in reply to organism's rant I did not mean that in any insulting way(I was a bit of a groupie in my younger days-anybody remember MC5). In fact I regret using it as I, too, think that Organism was being sexist. I don't think its happenstance that emotional outbursts come when the comments become too 'girly'. I wish that people who think Organism was 'right' would be more specific on what comments they objected to. Wheres Chief gone-I miss him! Love you chief xxx

  136. sydney ooo nice flirting :) …
    to answer you on where i have been , DEB was right in the other post …i was in fact "after some creatures" lol
    and I was cutting through a bank vault with torches (which was pretty intense)

    FOR THOSE OF YOU who are waiting for an email response …I can't plug my comp into a tree so ill be getting back to you over the weekend.

  137. organism,

    although I am not offended, you asked to not misinterpret your comment so correct me if I'm wrong. you said i was disingenuous this could be thought of as an insult ..if you mean trying to sound dumber than i am or insincere on purpose, this is not the case, I sincerely wanna help anyone i can. I am not lost or missing parts in my theories that i need to dodge. If you think something is missing ask away. I am not covering up any inadequacies with humor as you have said that you have done in the past..round the way we tend to use duct tape to cover up shortcomings.

    if you must know, I find humor is not only a good way to achieve health but helps keep people's attention when I talk about any deep thoughts or issues so i tend to mix it up for that reason. If I wanted " trim the fat " textbook info i wouldn't be on a blog i would just read my books. Its much faster path to information.

    Ever notice how bland, boring geeks put people to sleep? generally they get no where with their great ideas and thoughts and at the end of the night they don't get the girl's number and their local "matt damon " of the night hits them with the "how do you like them apples". I can't stand academic, argumentative mass-debaters so I strive to be the creative forward thinking opposite and if being original means a % of the population does not like me so be it.

    ( see good will hunting bar scene for example of diploma flaunting.) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymsHLkB8u3s

  138. Organism , part 2

    the "groupies" you mentioned in my opinion keep the comment section from becoming nothing but a bunch of 1's and zeros and graphs and pie charts. I would have to agree with lisa as matt's hardcore followers are of both sex, your statement comes off as a one-sided attack on the ladies singling out the female "groupies" or followers you might say. this is even more obvious considering DML groupied you with a high 5 in this post……would that be considered flirting ??? or is it ok since blogo-cop was the one doing it ??

    I address my messages to each individual if people want to avoid possible banal and or off topic info/ humor just skip it. :)

    in peace brother, I still look forward to your comments don't misinterpret mine as negative :)

  139. DEB ( grass fed) JENNY Nipp, ELIZ the "ditz"

    be flirty with your QWERTY !.. don't let anyone bring you down with negativity I always look forward to all of your comments :)

    I wonder if a certain individual whose name starts with a D ends with an L and has an M in it somewhere in the middle,
    would decline to step outside like the chap in the good will hunting bar scene after being outlandishly pretentious and overly argumentative if he and i were in person. Especially knowing he is no longer safe in mommy's basement where he primarily plays world of warcraft and occasionally jumps on the 180 blog to hint-hint about who is (stupid) referring to them as vapid or vacuous oooooo…. nifty word for "vacuum-like" . This stratagem is extensively inefficacious, amalgamated with a fusillade of acateleptic verbiage, obstreperously producing ostentatious BULLSHIT

    .ironically his off topic post about me has made this thread arguably just as "guilty" as the rachel cosgrove thread.

    judging by the heavy number of 180 reader mail in my inbox "big word flaunting/stick to the topic haters" are in the minority … I think I'll continue "bringing the quality of the comment section down"

  140. CHIEF-

    Welcome back!
    Now why don't you tell people the honest truth about where you were? Hunting down creatures -is that what you call me now a days?!


  141. Matt, you're back!
    Glad to hear you're kind of thinking along the same lines as I was with overfeeding although I have reasons to doubt it would all work the same in inverse. My intuition is the fat-loss reverse check-mark diet graph would be more difficult to follow for various reasons.

    I've been looking at some of Lyle McDonald and Martin Berkham's stuff. They seem to be saying a lot of it does come down to calories-in, calories-out. Yeah, there's a lot more at play. But there's this message that to lose fat, you have to not eat too much, and if you are eating too much, you'll gain weight. I think even Scott Abel is along these lines. I'm guessing "eating too little" or "eating too much" has a somewhat wide variance, as the body's fairly adaptable, but I don't know. Is this calorie cutting or just not regularly indulging? I feel a little mixed between these messages and 180 and my own intuition (which both say that hormones should regulate it and hunger/satiety/activity levels should follow).

  142. Aaron, I was reading the same stuff you mentioned a few months ago, and I really contemplated it and, dare I say, fell for it for a while. That's kind of what spurned my latest fat loss crazed that ended in nothing but a whole lot of self-hate. But it also gave me the final kick-in-the-butt when it comes to dieting because I do not want to be that person anymore. I agree with your intuition: the body should be allowed to self-regulate. Of course, this does mean giving it the opportunity to self-regulate by feeding it well and giving it enough rest, etc. But I think that should be the ultimate goal. Worrying about calories never results in anything positive for me personally.

  143. Oh my, Chief, be still my heart!!!!! <3

    I don't wanna bash, I just wanna get healthy and have a bit of flirty fun doing it!!
    so glad you are back and btw if anyone could plug a computer into a tree, it's you.

    AaronF: I too got sidetracked by Martin B's fasting stuff.. and god the stuff he eats!! But like Liz says, I had to come to my senses and realize, yeah, eating tons of butter and meat does not work for me, but eating/resting etc Deb style (Let's call it DRRF, Debs rest and refeed, note that 'agressive' is missing) works.
    I am starting to see some gut changes. Meaning, I am seeing a tiny bit less of it. I feel I may be turning the corner on that and hope that my fasting bg follows the trend.

    Off to cut some hair and make jokes at my own expense,
    Lady Hag a
    PS Girls Make the rockin' world go round and don't you boys forget it!

  144. Liz, Deb,
    I'm pursuing some of my theories (which is an intense amount of work by the way) but here's some of the reasons I think losing fat wouldn't be as straightforward. Deprivation (dieting) hormonally primes the body into the famine mode*. These changes also increase the likelihood the dieter will refeed on empty calories that spike the pleasure centers. None of this works to correctly regulate the hormonal system of the dieter. The dieter is now 10 pounds heavier in the same (relatively) hormonal state.

    But what would the reverse look like? Overeating would down-regulate pleasure centers (by inducing higher stimulation). And overeating on whole foods and then at some point eating less seems like it would lead to understimulation of pleasure centers. I don't see PCAT as inherently fattening like Matt. I see it more like Julia Ross… your neurotransmitters are lower, so now you're looking for a boost. Also, it's easy to overeat a lot when you're primed for fat storage, but undereating? There's all shades of gray here. Eating is inherently pleasurable, so my intuition is the propensity to eat wouldn't go down as much after overfeeding as it would go up after underfeeding. I.e. it could take a good while longer to lose fat than gain it.

    Anyways… on Berkham,
    I've noticed Berkham's ideas are a bit similar to Chief's… I.e. constrict your eating window. This makes more intuitive sense to me from an evolutionary standpoint than the idea you need to "break fast" as soon as you get up. It even explains why you'd experience sharper cognitive function. Evolutionary strategy wouldn't win out by inducing brain fog when it's time to go out and search for energy. And I agree with Berkham that a lot of the studies looking at eating/not-eating breakfast and also morning glucose/insulin/blah-blah metabolism are kind of bogus.

    As for eating when you feel hungry, different meal patterns can be entrained, as described by both Chief and Berkham. Ghrelin secretion patterns will adapt. (That's the whole point of the human organism… to be adaptive). Personally I like eating larger meals. It feels natural.

  145. Fantastic post Matt and very insightful comments everybody else. Loved the Wpaf comments as I came from there and am going through the god has clay feet phase. Just been reading Nagel on phytates in grains. A bit overkill until you reach the end and then you find out none of it matters because you are doing everything else right (raw milk, probiotics, vit c etc) and you have to eat more than 3 servings a day, or whatever. WAPF tone is just so know it all and qualification so tacked on at the end, as an after thought.
    @Kitchen Recovery Fab name! Fuhrman comment-choice! In relationship to rat studies and calorie restriction, if I remember rightly, it was calorie restriction in YOUNG rats that led to longevity. So are we supposed to underfeed children? Scary thought.
    Good comments on homeopathy. I'm thinking I might try it for my dogs fleas since none of the natural treatments plus grooming seem to work(sorry bit off topic but this takes up alot of my time, forgive me.)
    OK DML, which comments did you find offensive last time? This has taken up alot of space so maybe you could be more specific.
    Michael I LUV your website! Its fun.
    LizaE Thomas Cowen called you a professional patient?! Thats vile, that is.

  146. Aaron-

    The commonality between Berkhan and Abel is that they both understand that just straight cutting calories leads to serious metabolic damage and rebound. Both have created systems for avoiding the typical pitfall, which is, primarily, the leptin Re-feed. Joel Marion has the most straightforward and simple approach and you'll hear a lot more about this in Tim Ferriss's new book when it comes out, which I hope to review immediately after I get my hands on it.

    McDonald has about the least sophisticated and by far most strenuous and difficult approach – cyclic ketogenic. On that diet, I literally would never feel good or sane. McDonald also thinks that leanness = dieting symptoms whereas Berkhan and Abel feel like they've both found ways of being lean year-round without running into problems.

    Anyway, I agree it's interesting. But following either's advice is very difficult, strenuous, and more than most people realistically can commit – with numerous pitfalls if you screw it up.

    I have no doubt that the most appropriate message for the largest number of people from an overall health and happiness standpoint is, "eat the food."

  147. Hey Matt
    The Feriss book is out! Get yer mitts on it so we don't have to buy it.. hee hee.
    I saw his post on his ideas.. kind of lame IMO. He says he eats the same meals, day in and day out.. and that is his big secret.
    He bores himself to death with his food…and just keeps on it..I think he might change it once a month.

    Also he pumped his body up like crazy in I think 30 days? To be honest, I liked his before better but for you muscle popping folks, you might like his after.

    SHEILA (the llama, not the girl)

    xo d.

  148. I AM SO LAME.
    It's 'Eat The Food TINA!"
    My apologizes to our Sheila and all llamas named Sheila around the world.

  149. Whew, you corrected yourself just in time. I was gonna rip you a new one for calling Tina Sheila for the 2nd time!

    Ferriss's book is released on 12/14. It ain't out yet as far as I know.

  150. Looking forward to that review, Matt. I like that it's coming from Ferriss, the one guy who doesn't believe in keeping up miserable routines. It will be interesting to see what he has to say.

    Meanwhile, I'm finally reaching the RRARF phase where I'm itching to do some more exercise/activity. At first I was just like, "God, yes, rest!" Now I'm looking forward to exploring what is really enjoyable to me (as opposed to what would be most "effective" for weight loss).

  151. I think the major focus of Tim's will be HIT for muscle growth (single set to failure of about 8 exercises 3 times per week), Zone/Paleo-esque eating for fat loss with junk food bender on Saturdays (leptin re-feed), and probably a few new tips and tricks.

  152. I mean, 30 minutes once per week. My bad.

  153. Even Demi gods make mistakes Matt.

    hey, my bad on the book, I read his blog awhile back and he made it sound like it was out but I think he meant it was being printed.

    Yeah, that sounds about right for his protocol.
    He is one pretty cool dude.

  154. DEBBIE-

    Confusion is now total in the head of Sheila?? Am I a lama or did I miss the boat? LOL!


    How long have you been RRARFing now? I'm still waiting for my spontaneously desire to work out again.

  155. Sheila
    You have to be a repeat geeked out fan of Napolean Dynamite to get it. Tina is the Llama he has to feed and that he yells "Eat the food!" at.

    BTW do those chickens have talons Matt?

  156. Chief:

    "I wonder if a certain individual whose name starts with a D ends with an L and has an M in it somewhere in the middle,
    would decline to step outside like the chap in the good will hunting bar scene after being outlandishly pretentious and overly argumentative if he and i were in person. Especially knowing he is no longer safe in mommy's basement where he primarily plays world of warcraft and occasionally jumps on the 180 blog to hint-hint about who is (stupid) referring to them as vapid or vacuous oooooo…. nifty word for "vacuum-like" . This stratagem is extensively inefficacious, amalgamated with a fusillade of acateleptic verbiage, obstreperously producing ostentatious BULLSHIT."

    LOL! Did you just issue a challenge? Lets go Chief! Name the time and place. Are you willing to pay for my travel expenses?

    I must have hit a sore spot. Why don't you grow up? People who have to resort to threatening or hinting at a physical confrontation over a disagreement demonstrate that they lack the maturity to deal with criticism or disagreement. I suspected this of you from the beginning based on the nature of your comments and responses, and to be honest my comments were, in part, intended to bait you out. And did you take the bait? In spades! I was grinning from ear to ear the whole time I was writing my previous comments, and now I am actually laughing.

    Frankly, in the scene from Good Will Hunting that you are referring to, both the "diploma waver" and Will Hunting were pricks. The "waver" was a prick for trying to humiliate Will's friend, and Will was a prick for thinking he could boil the thesis of historians Pete Garrison, James Lemon, and Gordon Wood into a couple of sentences each. Their work was a lot more nuanced than that, and only a pseudo-intellectual would think using what amounts to a "cliff-notes"summary of their work was a "good way" to put a "pretentious and overly argumentative chap" in his place.

    And when Will Hunting invited the "diploma waver" to step outside after he insulted Will –note there was no threat of violence on the "wavers" part– Will only further confirmed he was a prickish, immature pseudo-intellectual. Like you, maybe? Although I don't think anybody that has even a fraction of brain would confuse you for an intellectual, "pseudo" or otherwise.

    I find the comment about World of Warcraft and "mommies basement" hilarious. Can you say "ad hominem," Chief? (By the way, has anyone seen the South Park episode on World of Warcraft? It's great. Yes, South Park is vulgar, but it is vulgar in a proper, insightful context. A blog that is attempting to investigate health issues and help people is NOT NOT NOT the proper place or context.)

    "ironically his off topic post about me has made this thread arguably just as "guilty" as the rachel cosgrove thread."

    Oh boy! (Smacks forehead.) I have nothing against "off topic" comments, so there is no irony. I will say it again: My issue is with borderline vulgar comments that belong in the gutter, or, since you used the Good Will example, comments that belong in a bar filled with desperate losers. And that is why I, as you said, "high-fived" Organism; NOT, I REPEAT NOT, because I agreed with his "groupie" comment but because he was perceptive enough to know something was amiss and was straightforward enough to actually bring the issue to light.

  157. Oops, to clarify: Where I said "thesis" I should have used the plural, "theses." That mistake really bugged me…

    Yes, just another example of my pretentious "big word flaunting" ways. (Rolls eyes)

    If my writing style bothers or offends anyone other than Chief, I truly am sorry. It is just how I write, there is no attempt to "flaunt" anything on my part. It's just my style, nothing more, nothing less.

  158. Hi Sydney,

    I almost overlooked the fact that you addressed me.

    You asked "OK DML, which comments did you find offensive last time? This has taken up alot of space so maybe you could be more specific."

    All right. Fair enough.

    First, let me get a couple things out of the way:

    1.) I guess I can't really blame people if they mistakenly think that my gripe is with "flirtatious comments" "off topic" comments ect, because my original post doesn't completely jive with my later statements about my real issue being with "tasteless" comments. However, in my defense, that is not a consequence of a change in view, but rather a consequence of being inapt in my original statement and later becoming more precise in my objections. At the time of my original post, I hadn't fully conceptualized what my real gripe was about.

    2.) I making a big deal out of this because this site, as represented by both Matt's official posts and the comments section, has the potential to help people. However, not everyone is comfortable with banal vulgarity and it may tragically turn people away from both the comments and the site when they might have otherwise received help. Yes, even from Chief!

    Back to the specifics and what I found offensive: I am not going to quote anything or anyone. Instead, I am going to suggest a key-word search for:

    -"ice cream"
    -"egg fertilizer" or "fertilizing eggs" or any combination thereof
    -"hump off"
    and so on…I don't think this list is exhaustive, nor is it meant to be…

    Of course, whether or not it is viewed as "offensive" depends on the individual. If I am wrong that it is vulgar and offensive, I think at least some people would agree that it is –at best– "off-putting" and immature. In fact, I know that to be the case, based on other comments left on this thread. Once again, I think such behavior could tragically turn away some people who need, and could have received, help. And even if they don't need help, it could turn away people who want to read about health in a comfortable environment. Everyone should feel welcome and comfortable here, not just those of certain lifestyle and personality traits.


    - `But it's been thought for a long time that excess protein is anti-metabolic.´

    Matt, what references or reasons did Broda Barnes or Bernarr MacFadden gave to support this?

    It may be true, but perhaps the key word is `excess´ (protein). During a calorie deficit mantaining a high protein intake is crucial to retain muscle, and Berkhan says that even at manteinance dietary protein provides long term success when aiming for a high muscle/BF ratio.


    Yams are killing me! I've tried for many months now. I LOVE them, but any meal I throw a yam or potato onto I end up ravenous 1/2 hour later. It's worse than when I eat fruit or even chocolate. So I tried to add more fruit instead but got the God awful tooth pain thing. Ended up eating a lot of corn/rice but was pretty bloated the whole time and didn't enjoy it. I'm sort of out of carb options.

    Anyway, after a good 15 months of HED, I dont feel any better. I might feel worse. I certainly feel 20 pounds fatter. My temperature never did much moving either way. My blood tests stayed in normal ranges but for my 300 point chol. which I don't care about cuz Trig and HDL is good.

    I never got to a place where I felt like exercising. Basically, I'm back to 'what the fuck do I eat' so I might feet better. It's depressing! It's easy to say 'just eat the food.' But I'm sure for more than just me, that is one hella complicated statement. Just wanted to relay my experience since I know non-success stories can be just as important as success stories. Any input welcome. -SG

  161. Hi, I'm not gone, nor am I a Peat fan. I do think this blog has been very repetitive lately, and is behind the the level of info you can find on, say, whole health source (what isn't, anyway). I think you're are forgetting many important topics, like the need for adequate nutrition (you never mention things like organ meats, b12, calcium, quality of the protein, or go in depth with the composition of known healthy diets, etc.), the quality of the soil, the complexity of the human body and diseases (well beyond overweight or being suboptimal) it's hormones and signals, and it's interactions with food (it's much more than just omega 6, leptin, starch or fructose) and the possible problems (for the modern man) of wheat, allergens and toxins. Besides, although I don't cosume refined sugar or much other sugar myself, I'm tired of people comparing isolated fructose to whole foods or even sucrose. I'm thankful though, 'couse you were one of the first people to hit me hard in the head with these topics. And even knowing you want to "keep it simple", now I'll try and hit you some.

  162. There's also gut disbyosis, food chemical sensitivities, genetic predispositions, epigenetics, etc.

    Well, that was nitpicky. :-)

  163. Hey,

    Greetings from Pennsylvania, here at the WAPF Conference. I met Stephen Guyenet today, and he's going to be talking about the carby diets of traditional Pacific Islanders tomorrow. He mentioned he was asked to speak in part to help counterbalance the preponderance of low carb-ism among many WAPFers. Eager to hear his talks about the lean, heart attack and diabetes-less carb eaters.

    One questsion though- the higher fat diets did seem to correspond with higher latitudes. But one contention I've heard WAPfers make is: quality fat is highly valuable for detox-ing, essentially. That is, in such a polluted, nutritionally bereft, degenerated world, fat is a way to nourish, and rebalance. What do you think of that as a justification for higher fat consumption even at lower latitudes? Not that I buy it, necessarily, but that's one possible explanation.

    Also- eager to hear the research/rationale for high protein diets being anti-metabolic.

    Cheers y'all.

  164. Broda Barnes made mention of how it was well-known that high-protein diets strained the metabolism and exacerbated hypothyroid symptoms, but mostly he noticed in patients that as protein intake increased, so too did the level of medication required to keep the body temperature up and hypothyroid symptoms at bay.

    MacFadden, who you always have to take with a whole grain of salt states…

    "It is thought by some authorities that the thyroid gland has to do with the control of the excretion of the waste products from nitrogenous foods, for it has been found that a meat diet or a high-proteid diet is extremely harmful in disorders of this organ. It has been found that dogs fed on meat after the thyroid gland has been removed invariably die in a few days, but that they can be kept alive for a long time if fed on a diet very low in proteids."

    45YO female-
    There's no question that not every ETF experiment is a happily ever after. When things don't work out to that extent it's time to see a naturopathic doc specializing in endocrinology. I've heard a lot of desperate situations, particularly with digestive issues being relieved by RBTI. Might want to look into it. It may stabilize your basic body chemistry better than just ETF'ing has.


    I do address every single one of those elements, and have plenty to say about all of them. For example, gut dysbiosis is best alleviated by eating a lot of food that fosters growth of "healthy" bacteria, such as resistant starches like legumes and whole grains. I just had a report recently of someone who had gluten intolerance and IBS overcome the disorder by eating a lot of whole wheat pasta and oats.

    Allergies, at the core, are typically caused by low corticosteroid production – either natural or from burnout due to stress/poor diet/chronic infection and so on. Heightened versions of allergenicity result in any number of autoimmune conditions.

    Leaky gut most likely stems from a wasting away of the tissues in the digestive tract as was witnessed by all of McCarrison's vitamin deficiency subject autopsies. That and dysbiosis, which stems from eating lots of refined grain and sugar without nutrients, fiber, or resistant starch to foster healthy bacterial flora… and antiobiotics certainly don't help. How you fix it is another matter entirely, and I know of no sure path to doing it.


    Holy timing. Perhaps Scott Abel can steer you more into believing that weight is more of a factor of pleasure center activation and less of a metabolic issue. Check out yesterday's new videos…


  165. Hi Matt

    In your comment to 45yo female you mention RBTI for digestive issues, sorry to be dense, but can you please explain what RBTI is??

    Also, you mention someone who overcame IBS and gluten intolerance by eating lots of whole wheat pasta and oats, do you happen to know if at first this made their situation worse before it improved?

    Thanks for all that you do.

  166. MATT-

    I too saw that new video from Abel. Very interesting indeed. I think it explains a lot. I believe some people are more sensitive to activating that pleasure center.
    What are your thoughts on it?

  167. Mishkam-

    In short, yes, but very briefly. This was coming off of zero carb. I know very little about RBTI myself. It seems very complicated, but with good anecdotal results. It's all about using a series of simple tests to determine pH, glucose, electrolyte balances and such and tweaking diet and supplements to keep things stable.

    Some people are sensitive and some aren't. That much we do know. In basic studies it's been shown that basically all people are aroused by things like the smell of fresh-baked brownies, and the vast majority of Westerners eat, more or less, the same diet. Yet, some get fat and some do not. One can only speculate as to why that is because nobody knows.

  168. Sheila: I've been on full RRARF for 25 days. Though I've been working on overall metabolic healing for a couple years, this is the first time I've committed to doing the full RRARF program for a length of time.


    Thank you.
    I've been on it for almost 2,5 month. No turning point for me yet.
    Should be interesting to follow your progress.

  170. So after several days of definite overfeeding, I was going to say I had nothing to show for it except a larger belly. The overfeeding wasn't tons of calories, but was by a bowl of popcorn or so. I had checked basal temp at one or two points and seen nothing spectacular… the usual 97.2 to 97.5. And I am still not feeling refreshed from sleep.

    But this morning I decided to check temps again. Three readings at 97.9 and one at 98.0, and I wasn't trying to overeat yesterday. Maybe it's because I had a peanut butter cup last night. Refined sugar you know.

    Now it's time for the new Abel video Matt linked, which I'll be watching as some of you read this.

  171. Last word to OOAW:
    In the words of Steve Martin,

    God, I just made another bad joke. You do bring out the worst in me.

  172. Hey Matt,
    Those Abel videos are more in lines with how I was thinking PCAT actually works, although Abel stated it even better. I had the impression from you that pleasure center activation is inherently fattening. I.e. it somehow resets homeostasis. The view I was pursuing was that you also need balance of neurotransmitters (this view is based somewhat off of reading Julia Ross). Your physiology just isn't going to withstand chronically low activation of seratonin, GABA, DHEA, or whatever, so it will seek to boost them in some way. There are other ways besides food, but there's no doubt that refined starch, sugar, and fat are one of the quickest, easiest routes. And we know that dieting causes deprivation in these neurotransmitters and puts the pleasure centers out of balance.

    I really liked how Abel broke it down into two separate evolutionary mechanisms, with reward centers taking precedence over homeostasis. I always like to look for higher-up causes, and when you can get an explanation in terms of evolution, and also break it down in terms of the physiology, that's about as close as you get to a gold standard.

    Thanks for the videos. I would like to share some of this info with my mom (including the Medicare diet study I linked earlier). She's still doing Weight Watchers. I've had numerous health discussions. She's actually fairly respectful, although I'm sure I go off the deep end quite often. Oh well. Perhaps it's better to live and let live. Although… I agree with Matt that given what is currently known bout dieting, Weight Watchers is criminal.

  173. DML,

    I'm not a violent guy by nature. I did not issue a challenge as I have nothing to prove and nothing to gain. Did you think jenny actually wanted to hit you with a pemican chair as well ? ? I was simply conveying the idea that I highly doubt you would act so pompous in person. Like it or not if you were insulting women in any way like it appeared you did here it would be my duty to set you straight. Attaching your statement to organisms seems like you were agreeing with his quasi-woman bashing only way more confrontational. In your clear up statement it seems more like it was directed mostly at me in the cosgrove post while in your first post it seems like everything I have said since I "appeared here" has irked you but you later state "you rather like the fellow" I'm a little confused there. Either way I'm not looking to meet your criteria in any way or have you decide what constitutes an intellectual in my case.

    If you also notice the subject of violence has not come up with any others I have disagreed with (sydney and hans for example) even in this post organism was pretty polite in his response to my criticism. you might wanna look at yourself instead of "baiting" me to "prove" I'm a savage. It kinda seems like you enjoy arguing for the sake of arguing.

    Simply saying step outside does not mean violence is automatic. In my experience the less cozy environment causes those with your predilection to become quite polite in the conversations that take place outside.

    you mention not being concerned with political correctness how is my plain speaking any different? people talk about mess BMs and all kinds of things here. Unless free expression is granted, clear thinking is denied and progress is halted.

  174. DML,

    I don't have a problem with your writing style I simply do not like how you use big words to cover up the fact you are insulting someone. Call me stupid/non intellectual all you want but be a man about it, no need to hide it behind big words just call us stupid instead of calling the flirty people in essence air heads by using words like vacuous. you did not really strike a nerve, I didn't even mind the first time but if you are gonna single me out twice when I wasn't the only one in the history of 180 to ever post like that thats another thing. To boot you were all little kid-ish about it ( starts with c ends with f ) I was fighting fire with fire to show you how childish your attacks come off. In seeing your response I can see you would agree with me had you been on the opposite end of your instigations.

    In my neck of the woods,in person these sort of things would get you a high 5 …..right across the face by just about anyone women and men and children alike… .as verbal abuse is no different than physical… but maybe we don't have a high tolerance for pretentious disrespect over here as your social circle.


    Ice cream in my rachel Cosgrove comment was meant as ice cream to illustrate preference, nothing else but I could have come off a little rough with some of my other statements ultimately that is up the individual to decide if it offensive as he or she feels the need to either read or skip over said comment. It's really up to matt to decide what should or should not be said here not DML or anyone else. I agree you cant please everyone and ultimately the free exchange of ideas here is what has me hooked to this blog and i feel the largest number of readers would feel the same. Matts blog is truly unique in that respect. He could have deleted me or not responded to my silly hump off statement. To me its all in good fun and breaks the monotony that I see on other health blogs that i stumble upon in google only to never visit again. I think its quite easy to see within a few words if a post is skip worthy. With things like cococunt being thrown around in the past and an overall limited censorship other than sexism racism or homophobia I didn't feel the geekish sounding egg statement was too much. It is also my opinion that typical sexually repressive american social norm is part of problem causing major health woes including obesity. Feel free to let me know if I cross your boundaries, just be direct and tell me about your gripes no need to insult i did not mean to offend.I am a pretty frank speaker.

    … I guess I need a " parental advisory explicit content" (PAEC) sticker for my blog posts so the faint at heart can skip em. I think ill use these acronyms in the beginning of my posts in the future so people can skip PAEC, NSFW (not safe for work) ..or NDMLA NOT DML APPROVED

  176. Hi Matt,
    In light of how shortsighted we think Janie from "Thyroid Madness" is, I wish you would reconsider your dismissal of the late endocrinologist Dr. Simeons' HCG protocol. Every time you speak about the hypothalmus regulating the metabolism I think how you two are totally on the same page but just like Janie you aren't giving HCG enough of a look.

    People who refute the weightloss method say studies don't support the doctors finding, but this site by the holistic doctor Fred Bloem MD, expains how these studies can go awry. It also has one of the best explanations I've seen about the protocol.http://drbloem.com/treatment-options/dr-simeons-hcg-diet/hcg-diet-faqs/.

    I love the idea of your slow steady metabolism correcting techniques but many people like "Mumzee HCG" on Youtube are in such bad shape they need help now. Her doctor told her she had to immediately lose 40 pds or go on dialysis. Her blood sugar levels were off the charts and due to an injury she could not esercise. With her metebolic syndrome,diets did not work for her. She was at deaths' door and to date has lost over 80 pounds and her sugar levels are now manageble. There are countless similar stories on Youtube. The only detractors are people who have not tried it or have done it incorrectly. I hope you will look into it again and download his free protocol. He speaks your language and figured it out in the 50's yes I said the 50's.

    I myself lost a quick 20 and am maitaining easily with lots of taters, coconut oil and butter. Woo…hoo!!!

    This program is saving lives and has been repressed too long. Let's get the word out. Don't be like Janie.

  177. Chief,

    " It's really up to matt to decide what should or should not be said here not DML or anyone else."

    I agree…Matt is free to do what he wants on his blog. He could delete all my posts for that matter, and I would hold nothing against him for doing so.

    "I guess I need a " parental advisory explicit content" (PAEC) sticker for my blog posts so the faint at heart can skip em."

    It's not about being "faint of heart." There is a time and place for vulgarity –heck, I've already said I like South Park– but a blog such as this is no place for such behavior.

    "…ultimately the free exchange of ideas here is what has me hooked to this blog and i feel the largest number of readers would feel the same."

    Vulgarity, in the context of this blog, is not an exchange of ideas. It does nothing to facilitate the the discussion and might turn away people who would have otherwise benefited from this site.

    "In my neck of the woods,in person these sort of things would get you a high 5 …..right across the face by just about anyone women and men and children alike… .as verbal abuse is no different than physical… but maybe we don't have a high tolerance for pretentious disrespect over here as your social circle."

    Verbal abuse no different that physical, huh? That is an absurd code, there is a world of difference between verbal vs physical contact. Furthermore, my "big words" had nothing to do with being "pretentious" nor was I trying to hide behind them; I frankly think "big words" often get the point across more directly.

    "In seeing your response I can see you would agree with me had you been on the opposite end of your instigations."

    Yes and no. I've already acknowledged I was partly trying to bait you out, so I WAS indeed a bit more over-the-top than I normally am. But I was trying to see if you would end up threatening me with physical violence, which is ultimately what you did, and so you took the bait and failed. I've already stated what I think about instigating physical violence over a verbal disagreement.

    Chief, I honestly don't hold anything against you. In many respects you seem like a decent guy, even if do come across as crude and vulgar sometimes, and threaten people with violence for disagreeing. But so be it, I guess. We'll have to agree to disagree…

  178. Oh, and:

    "Call me stupid/non intellectual all you want but be a man about it, no need to hide it behind big words just call us stupid instead of calling the flirty people in essence air heads by using words like vacuous."

    It wasn't the "flirty" comments that bothered me, I've already stated that numerous times. And I wasn't hiding behind "big words." I frankly think that "vacuous" gets the point across better.

    Chief, I leave the last word to you if you want it. I just posted these last two comments because there were a few things that needed to be cleared up.

  179. Organism as a Whole,

    No prob, apology accepted 

to clear something else up, I was not thanking matt for the "wing man help" for cheating purposes i was saying thanks for the compliment that he gave me for giving the blog a good kick in the ass….

    I don't agree with an anti male movement and I think a feminist movement would not be necessary if women were treated properly to begin with. Much in the same way I would cease to be a native the minute I step off a plane in africa therfore anti colonialism is not super productive in the big picture.

    I still feel your comments were sexist because I could have easily been added into your list of people that are avid followers of matt and hence be "a groupie 
flirting around in the comments" your list only had women and if it had men as well I doubt anyone would have felt your thoughts meant they were all "ditzy sluts" clogging up the comment section.

  180. Organism,
    as far as man hating I think you don't realize when Im being silly also ..( man killing virus ..etc) :)

    My grandfather is an amazing man and has inspired me deeply my whole life my father as well but he has far more flaws. I have some family issues stereotypical of natives but the shaping of my views on women were done by the positive male role models and little things embedded in cultural beliefs and language not some messed up interactions with men. I have a lot of brothers and we often work as a team as well as a group of male friends i consider my brothers.
 ….I just come from a point of view that


1) men and women are obviously different but at the same time equal in social value or place in the world. We both have our roles that are quite different and things work better when we recognize them. both sexes can do just about anything equally within reason just makes more sense to not try to artificially impregnate men as an example. women are far more valuable to upbringing of future generations for instance as far as humans we only really need a "few good men" and if anything out of men or women men should be the " human shield" protecting women.

    2.) society as it is now ( north america) has been built by a cultural dogma that treats women as second class. things like highway of tears in BC would not exist if i had my way. So I must do my part to rectify these things. Drastic reduction in crime can be had if we uplift single mothers in the ghetto for instance. I think there is a lot of work to be done.

  181. Darn it, I somehow overlooked the other comment that Chief addressed to me. So I will now address a few things from that post, and then shut up, I promise.

    " I was simply conveying the idea that I highly doubt you would act so pompous in person."

    I would if I thought the person was inappropriately vulgar, and I was testing to see if they were not only vulgar but prone to violence. I have no respect for either tendency.

    "Like it or not if you were insulting women in any way like it appeared you did here it would be my duty to set you straight. Attaching your statement to organisms seems like you were agreeing with his quasi-woman bashing only way more confrontational. In your clear up statement it seems more like it was directed mostly at me in the cosgrove post while in your first post it seems like everything I have said since I "appeared here" has irked you but you later state "you rather like the fellow" I'm a little confused there."

    First of all, objecting to "flirting" IS NOT INSULTING WOMEN or BASHING THEM!!! Men flirt too, so is objecting to flirting also "men bashing?" Not all disagreements are based on some politically correct bullshit like "sexism" or "women bashing" or "racism" or "homophobia," or "whatever." Sometimes people just disagree with the way an individual, or group of individuals, is acting without any sort of bigoted motive.

  182. …continued from above…

    Furthermore, there is nothing in any of my posts that could be construed as insulting women or "bashing" them by a rational person; even in my original post where I hadn't fully conceptualized my gripe, and so used the word flirting when I should have used the word tasteless or vulgar of whatever.

    No, not everything you have said since you have appeared here has "irked" me, just the vulgar stuff by you and a couple others, and the CRAP about cheating on Jennies husband. And I do like you to some degree because you seem knowledgeable and to genuinely want to help people.

    "If you also notice the subject of violence has not come up with any others I have disagreed with (sydney and hans for example) even in this post organism was pretty polite in his response to my criticism. you might wanna look at yourself instead of "baiting" me to "prove" I'm a savage. It kinda seems like you enjoy arguing for the sake of arguing.”

    I baited you because you mentioned me getting punched in the face once before over on the "Resetting Your Circadian Clock" post. I ignored it at the time, but Hans took objection to the comment, so I am not the only one that takes objection to such behavior.

    No, I don't like to argue for the sake of arguing (otherwise I wouldn't have let the original incident slide), but I will sometimes engage people tirelessly if I think I have a valid point and they distort what I say.

  183. …cont. from above…

    "you mention not being concerned with political correctness how is my plain speaking any different? people talk about mess BMs and all kinds of things here. Unless free expression is granted, clear thinking is denied and progress is halted."

    The BM talk is in the context of a discussion about health, and continuing said discussion. Vacuous vulgarity does nothing to promote "clear thinking" and in fact "halts progress."

    Now I leave the last word to you Chief, if you want it.

  184. DML,
    hopefully this is the final word

    you misinterpret my words often. I have also stated numerous times that I never threatened you once. . anyone that knows me personally reading this would laugh at the thought you consider me violent as i go way beyond "turn the other cheek" often. the "circadian rhythm punch" was saying a person can get punched for things like that around my way not that i wanted to hit you silly.. simple advice to keep you from getting punched if you are a traveller… read all my comments there you will see.

    I have asked more than a few men to "step out side" to finish a discussion and perhaps they see me in a different light outside or they lose their gusto but a fight never occurs and that is not my goal when I ask them to go outside I have never thrown the first punch in my life but they sure do get polite. :)

    I go all over speaking to young people in native communities. A big issue is suicide a lot of that is caused by verbal abuse so yes I think it is equal if not worse than physical attacks.

    in my experiments and research I have seen verbal abuse result in way worse effects than a black eye. I can show you systematically how to induce fat gain with verbal abuse alone being the only consciously manipulated variable.

    BTW your last few post were a lot more respectful and we could have avoided all this being that way to begin with. the Context of offensive material is subject to personal opinion which is not yours to dictate weather it's BM or sex related.


  185. EVERYONE,

    I can not understand why ANYONE thought I wanted to cheat on jennies hubby with her ???? thought I was quite clear. I did not bring it up but i was quick to fix the misconception.

    to quote me :

    <<<< " DEB,
    that was an offer to girls and guys alike, no mention of cuddle therapy or sex training. :) I meet my metabolically induced needs a little too well without sneakin my hand in anyone else's cookie jar.


JENNY, tell your hubby not to worry , 
I'm not down with O.P.P. and especially not Ontario Provincial Police either ( they love getting me for DWI driving while indian) " >>>>>>

    if you do not understand not being down with O.P.P. see here : ( parental advisory warning) :)


    the only person i offered cuddle therapy was sandra bullock. I was genuine in my offer to help I make a lot of house calls.

    now maybe I can get in on some of the positive discussions …

  186. *skipping over drama*
    So, interesting. I've been reading and implementing matt's books and stuff for only about 2-3 weeks. My main focus has been eating a better, early, bigger breakfast. And I haven't been worrying over what I eat, just eating healthy, real foods (minus a few homemade cookies and stuff, but overall good).
    Well, my cycle actually snuck up on me today! The reason I was surprised, is that I usually get a major temp dip a few mornings before I start. But this morning it stayed above coverline, so I thought maybe it wouldn't be coming. So I'm hoping I'll have a shift upward in my pre-o temps now, that would help.
    Thanks for the name compliments. It popped into my head one night that I needed to start a blog and the name came to me. I thought for sure it'd be taken. I just need a place to sort out all my thoughts!

  187. No prob Stone. Apology accepted.

    Ponyboy: Hey Johnny, you ever heard someone say, "he just likes to hear himself talk"?

    Johnny Lawrence: Yeah, sure have.

    Ponyboy: Well, there's some folks that like to "hear" themselves write.

    Johnny Lawrence: True dat, True dat.

  188. *DRAMA FREE post ..lol *

    Matt, Aaron F about PCAT regarding the abel videos why diets fail

    (side note he sounds canadian (prolly BC or ontario maybe ill check him out a lil more )

    I disagree with a large part of what abel is saying and its also not really clear what he is actually getting to lol but…. activating the pleasure centers does not result in weight gain by creating a habit.

    the body regulates itself and the pleasure center is part of that mechanism. nothing the body does is working against itself it just thinks its needs to keep sending out cravings to gain more fat.

    in my 7000 calorie a day food adventures i probably activate my pleasure center way more than i used to and in fact i go out of my way to eat a variety of activation and I also even cheat on purpose.

    your brain spend your whole life figuring out where the nutrients are based on the reward system and when your body needs whatever it deems necessary such as excess calories to create fat it wants it creates a craving and seeks to fill it with x amount of chocolate bars regardless if you attempt to restrict it with 100 calories versions. you can however give it what it needs along with the chocolate bar and reduce the amount of manipulation of the endocrine system and in the long term reverse the fat gain by reducing the cravings and stimulating fat burning but

  189. Well the article was good Matt.

    All this other stuff was retarded.

  190. Chief
    Glad to have you back, sweetie. I agree with all your posts above, especially that verbal abuse is just as bad as physical violence. Tell a child daily hes good for nothing and see the long term damage. I wasn't name checked in Orgasm's original post but I thought that I was one of the vulgar light-weights since I'd posted I thought falling in love and having lots of sex was the beat treatment for menopausal symptoms (though I admitted this isn't a practical suggestion). I enjoyed the Gosgrove comments more than any for a while. I think the women on here are so much more amusing than the men! Though the guy who told Matt (JOHNEY?) that he was going to flirt cartwheel with his winkie out was funny. A lot of Matt's posts are bodybuilding oriented, he can write about what ever he wants, but I find exercise physiology dull. I find DML hard to understand alot of the time, what point he is trying to make.
    Have you ever heard of the term passive-aggressive? DML 'doesn;t hold anything against you'…except you;re crude,vulgar and violent. HA-ha.
    As far as DML 'baiting' you to 'test' if you'd respond with threats of physical violence. Sad macho posturing. If you 'bait' people expect a punch in the face(not from you necessarily but from somebody. I'd be more likely to give someone a slap if they insult a friend than if they insulted me.)is all you said. And so it is.
    The only person who gets an apology is the one man involved! Choice. I guess admitting you are 'a whiny puppy pointing fingers at people' is supposed to be close enough to an apology. Wrong!
    And Andrew is 'badass' (I guess thats a complement)'for taking the risk of consuming sugar in such large quantities'. Yeah badass like every other noodle brain on the street. Jeez, I don't think I have any conversation with you.

    Out of this whole kerfuffle the worse for me is Orgasm's suggestion that you would have had to suffer some extreme abuse to be anti-sexist and that anti-sexism equals man hating. I remember all this from the 60's. I thought we'd moved on! Guess not. Sexism (and racism) remain ubiquitous.
    I think the bottom line is these two men are po-faced puritans. More bawdy banter, please!

  191. "Broda Barnes made mention of how it was well-known that high-protein diets strained the metabolism."

    Does this mean less protein is better? How little did he recommend as ideal?

    Thanks for the Techno Squirrels shoot out btw!
    Lisa :)

  192. Oh Lordy…what TGraham said. where is the moderator?

  193. Thanks for the moment of clarity, brought to us by TGraham :)
    Chief: You know I love ya.

    And Jenny is no ditz nor is she a flirty vacous person.

    As for me, meh, who cares? I am happy to just be alive and feeling better due to Matt's info.
    PS On Abel's coach em up videos, why does he always seem out of breath? Just noticed it.

  194. Sydney
    thanks bawdy banter needed a bit of support :)

    I do agree that girls as deb said "make the world go round" at least on 180.

    sigh … racism and sexism do remain …maybe a new hippie movement is in order

    had plenty of violence and abuse in my day but I'm pretty sure it did not make me anti-sexist :P

    yea ..just my sugar water experiment in place of maple sugar fasting was enough to make me not experiment heavily with sugar :) I wonder about pure fructose though small amounts alone in a fasted state ..

  195. You guys are a bloody bore..

  196. CHIEF-

    Interesting, interesting.. I love talking about the brain, lol.
    So what you are saying is, if we just make sure our bodies are not undernourished or in calorie deficit, the craving will become less and eventually disappear? Cravings are really a sign that our bodies are in deficit, right? That's how I have always looked at it..

  197. DEB, i loves ya too


    if everything in terms of lifestyle is in order i have seen the intense ones always go away. Rarrfing is good for that. sometimes you have a the taste to eat this or that tonight and that does not go away. it's the same thing only it has nothing to do with pure calorie content such as a candy bar binge and more to do with vitamin content, vitamins have subtle flavor and your brain remembers them as well as the after effects of certain foods.

    cravings in my opinion or because of a deficit of some sort. Go hunting and bring no carbs with you you'll start to think about bread and what not and having cravings for things you cant explain. In the same way you'll get sick of certain things as well going on a "eat one meal every meal for a month regiment". I eat plenty at night and don't even have a thought of food during most days sometimes if i don't eat enough i can almost predict i will be hungry or at least crave something the next day during the day before meal time.

  198. CHIEF-

    So if you for instance have sugar cravings, it could well be your not getting enough carbs?

    You say vitamins have subtle flavor -and I don't argue with that but what vitamin resembles sugar? I mean, if you have a deficit in a vitamin then why do your body crave sugar (which has none) and not the actual food with the vitamin your lacking?

  199. Hi Chief,
    I think, ultimately I agree with you on PCAT. I think the body attempts to regulate neurotransmitters as part of maintaining homeostasis. And yeah, I think the reward centers reward for both nutrient and energy density.

    But I think this system can be interfered with. Long-term dieting makes you low in neurotransmitters and certain nutrient deficiencies interfere with the ability for the pleasure system to prefer nutrient dense foods. Then you're more prone for cookies or cupcakes or whatever. But those would exacerbate the problem.

    So loading up the reward centers isn't necessarily the problem. It's getting the system out of whack. It would seem to me in a healthy balanced person, cookies, pastries, etc., wouldn't have much of an effect. That seems to be my experience. I.e. getting more and more selective in terms of quality.

  200. @debbiedoesraw

    i noticed the exact same thing – scott abel being out of breath just from talking. what IS that? from watching one of his exercise circuits he's obviously in good cardiovascular shape.

    it reminds me of sometimes when i read to my children – i'll find myself out of breath for (seemingly) no good reason. weird.

  201. Aaron, Chief, etc on PCAT:

    I can see what you are saying. Because certain people have no trouble turning down the most pleasurable foods or stopping after eating a moderate amount, whereas others are driven to eat large amounts of food that stimulate the pleasure centers. So it's not so much about whether or not a food stimulates the pleasure centers, but why an individual's reaction would be so exaggerated. I guess it all comes back to homeostasis and looking at the body as a whole rather than focusing on one particular reaction.

  202. danyelle: I think maybe he is nervous? Not sure, I though Matt might have a theory on it.

    On PCAT: All you have to know is that certain fake foods and over refined foods are like crack. One hit and you cannot stop even if you want to. Just get some Doritios and try to eat one. I dare ya. :)
    I love sweet potatoes, but lord, after one, I am full to the gills and would not dream of eating another one.

    Cuz it's real food, not chemical intoxicant nightmares.

  203. DEBBIE-

    I'll take that challenge any day. Doritios -bring em' on! I can take one and not go for any other! They do nothing to me. I feel the same with all salty food. Not doing squat for me!
    But sugar on the other hand.. One taste and I am hocked! This goes for all kinds. Cakes, ice cream, lollies, chocolate -you name it and I'll eat it ;-P

  204. What are doritos?

  205. OK Chief, your talk of IF got me intrigued again about intermittent fasting. Although I failed miserably on it before, I'm hoping to make sure to eat enough in the eating window to keep my metabolism up.

    It *seems* to make sense, but not everything that *seems* to make sense actually pans out in real life. But there are people that have made this work like Martin Berkhan (LeanGains guy…lean year round), Serge Nubret (legendary bodybuilder, near contest shape year round…ate one to two meals a day), Walter Breuning (worlds oldest man…eats a big breakfast and lunch…never eats dinner), some of the competitive eaters like Gal Sone, Sonya Thomas, Takeru Kobayashi (all which are very thin). I don't know what to make of it but I'm giving it another go.

  206. Sheila – thank you. They look like what we'd call corn chips. Not my favourite really.

    Something with dried apricots in it (cooked or raw) – that's another matter! :)

  207. I used to love Cool Ranch Doritos. I think a lot of that stuff gets eaten because it's highly palatable. If it's there in front of me I'll eat it, but when thinking about what to make for myself, that stuff never crosses my mind.

    Good call with the dried apricots. I think real food does make a difference in stimulating pleasure. I've noticed whip-cream from non grass-fed cows tastes dull to me now. Combine real whip cream with some real maple syrup, now you're talking. Actually, I think that's the strongest reward-center stimulating combination I've found so far. Good with pancakes or bacon.

    Sometimes I wonder if people get fat eating pleasurable foods because they're really just eating the cheap knock-offs that screw with metabolism. It'd be an interesting experiment.

  208. Cool Ranch Doritos! YES!!! That was one of my favs as a teenager. (And I wondered why I had acne–you know that crap has hydrogenated oil in it like three times?!?) Of course, now I have absolutely no desire for them. But (like Sheila) sugar can entice me anytime.

    Linda Bacon has some interesting ideas that there's nothing wrong with eating for pleasure, unless that's your *only* source of pleasure. She seems to think that nourishing yourself in ways other than food tends to balance your dependency on the pleasurable fare.

    I think that makes sense on some level. How often do we deny ourselves the things in life that would bring us a true sense of fulfillment, while being perfectly willing to have an extra bowl of ice cream because it makes us feel good?

  209. Hey Liz
    I like Linda Bacon's name. Because it has 'Bacon' in it. Salivating right on cue…

    I have of late, whilst not exactly agressive refeeding, have been agressive resting and not doing my usual feel like a truck hit you style workouts. Doing lots of yoga is seeming to give me a calm relaxing vibe rather than a cortisol/stress reaction I think doing too much macho stuff did.

    And so far, so good.. stay tuned!

  210. Hey all back on da carbs and with a twist many people here may benefit from.I will start with the fact that I have been heavily candida infested for yrs.Its so bad that its coming out of my skin and my forehead is the worst of it.I have this triangle shaped are that seems to grow red and gets all scaly.Then just as fast the scales drop off and very red inflammed skin lays underneath.This area of skin is aging at accelerated rate due to the damage this causes and its all wrinkly while the rest of my face is not.I have also been having the worst shitting episodes where I go but nothing really comes out and sometimes I poop out a ton of mucous.

    I have not been to a doctor for it instead I just know its due to my candida(intestinal).It goes away completely when I zero carb but thats not a life long idea for me and then the fact that the yeast seems to go dormant and even just a can of soda seems to cause an outbreak….my forehead gets all red and inflammed is the biggest sign.That and my stomach distends to were I look pregenant after a carb based meal….and I am always super bloated at end of day compared to when I first wake up.This is just wrong and is a sign of the yeast fermenting the carbs.

    So I have been doing coconut oil ingestion and its working…also my skin is freaking awesome now and is so soft from the CO….I just lather it on every morning…no breakouts at all either.

    But what I have started on I feel is my cure and may help others on here also.I started drinking one quart of Kefir everyday.I buy the sugar sweetened stuff and thats probably not best but the kefir does convert alot of it anyways.My forehead after 3 days of the kefir is clear for the first time in yrs.I have been pooping all day but still the stuff left behind feel.Its only 3 days though and I just feel that this is finally over for me…..candida that is.

    Now many people in the world eat carb based diets with normal yeast levels while many of us get candida.Why is this??I read somewhere that raw veggies and fruits are covered in probiotic bacteria and could be an argument for why it happens to alot of people….that is we cook any beneficial bacteria away.

    Then there is the legend of the origin of kefir.Supposedly a gift from god to promote good health.Its a crazy symbiotic family of all the weird stuff like bacteria and good yeasts that combat the bad stuff in the gut.

    ""Kefir grains are a combination of bacteria and yeasts in a matrix of proteins, lipids, and sugars. This symbiotic matrix forms "grains" that resemble cauliflower. Many different bacteria and yeasts are found in the kefir grains, which are a complex and highly variable community of micro-organisms such as Saccharomyces kefir, Torula kefir, Lactobacillus caucasicus, Leuconnostoc spp., lactic streptococci as well as lactose-fermenting yeast.""

  211. gotta agree with the Wolf. fermented foods are the shiz for digestive health etc. and coconut oil for skin.

    I found a brand I am slowing adding back in.. went off dairy for a bit.. it's called Green Valley Organic lactose free yogurt and kefir, plain for me. It is so tasty, I would marry it if I could. But I can't so.
    eh hem
    anyway, try it!

  212. 2Wolf, Deb – get some kefir grains and make your own. It's heaps cheaper and much better for you. The grains will last forever and you can eat or share the surplus.

    I got mine for almost nothing on the NZ equivalent of ebay and there's a Yahoo group where members offer grains for the cost of postage and packing.

    I make a sourdough no-knead bread with 1-2 cups of my kefir every week, and also have whey to start saurkraut.

    They're the cheapest pets I've ever had. :)

  213. genuine Will,

    partial fasting throught part of the day is tough to get down right but when it does it is a beautiful thing.I can say that I have not seen a "we are all different/ maybe it only works for some people " situation. if you are getting bad results you are doing something wrong in my opinion. only situation i can say where it becomes tricky is with intense physical activity in the early part of the day. In this case it naturally increases hunger. ( think moving a 3 bedroom house in 6 hours or running a moronathon.) considering this phenomenon i think it is foolish for the average person with a deskjob to be eating mostly during work …..but other than that it is pretty simple to live/ eat this way and remember to eat if your body is asking you to. its not a force it in a dieting sense thing.

    some things i have heard serge nuberet say sounds like things i have said in terms of eating so he might be a pretty good exampple as far as martin from lean gains, i cant seem to get a grasp on what he is actually doing via his website. gal sone and sonya thomas could prolly take me out at a buffet …must be doing something right.. :) feel free to hit me up for advice.

  214. sheila, aaron F

    sugar cravings are created while in starvation mode and the body feels it needs more calories. I don't get sugar cravings these days. I might crave red bell peppers blueberries or cucumbers or whatever but I could not fight the urge to scarf a dish of brownies while in the fat zone. i doubt it is most likely carb related but i presume it is possible. especially if sugar was the only carb eaten since birth i would not advise anyone to test that theory though :P

    I doubt inuits have a word for sugar cravings and they obviously lack carbs but the concept is describable in my language and we always had "goodies" and at the same time had great physiques ( more evidence flavor theory is insignificant although not a msil in the coffin) I just ate cornbread nuts and maple syrup yesterday not because of intense craving but just because :) ….. and no.. I ain't scared to over activate activate pleasure or get fat from it …

    with sugar cravings the body is just being very efficient at finding calories by choosing cupcakes or brownies or whatever sugar laden foods you "trained" it to recognize as its best source of high density fat creating material. It's primary goal in starvation mode is obtain calories. nutrition is only important for long term survival and hence vitamin content is secondary.


    *How often do we deny ourselves the things in life that would bring us a true sense of fulfillment, while being perfectly willing to have an extra bowl of ice cream because it makes us feel good?*

    This statement is so very true. Now that's some real food for thoughts ;-)


    You make sense Mr.
    I thought I had kicked my sugar cravings for good but they have slowly been creeping up on me again. Also my temperature drops every time I move around. Lying still or just sitting and relaxing, makes my temperature rise.
    All this must mean I am still in famine-mode, right?
    How the f… do I get out of it?! LOL!

  216. Syndey,

    I didn't apologize because I was socially retarded. For three days, I knew that some people was angry at me for behaving like a sexist. Three days is a long time.

    I can can understand why the two middle-aged women, Jenny and Debbie, wanted to cheat on their husbands. Perhaps because HED increased their metabolism so much that their sex drive also increased. It's like them becoming young, sexually-active, teenage girls again. So they cannot resist the temptation of cheating on their husbands, especially that their husbands have low sex drives or erectile dysfunction due to their poor health, and because Chief looks attractive.

    I feel intimidated by Matt's power, so I must act super nicey nicey around him. Matt's the alpha male. I'm just a puppy. A whiny puppy, to be exact. Because Matt is an alpha-male, he has the power to challenge me, ostracize me, and ban me if I'm perceived as a threat to his power. So I must act super nice around Matt if I criticize any of his ideas. When I criticize him, must continuously bow down to Matt to affirm his power. I submissively complained against him in my comment, like a whiny puppy.

    Macho-DML is a brave man. Macho-DML isn't intimidated at all by Matt, even though Matt has the power to challenge, ostracize, and ban him. I applaud to him for that.

    But Macho-DML is angry and insecure. If someone misunderstood him, he will immediately lash out his anger by replying a defense so he can save his face. He has posted at least 20 comments, so that shows how angry and insecure Macho-DML is. (And yeah, I know, calling someone "macho" or "insecure" is an act of insecurity itself. So I'm insecure too.)

    I purposefully didn't respond to any replies to my comment so I would look "cool" and "aloof." I waited four days before I replied. So I did the opposite of what Macho-DML did. Macho-DML replied 20 times, while I replied only once. By waiting four days before I would reply, I would look "cool" and "aloof" while Macho-DML will look angry, defensive, confrontational, and insecure for immediately replying to every little misunderstanding, as if he can't control his anger. Yet, I will now admit that my act in itself is a form of insecurity. I *acted* cool and aloof, while my true self is extremely angry and insecure.

    For instance, I almost cried after I attacked JT for believing that evolution and religion are compatible. Yes, I almost cried. I apologized and one day later Matt called me "cute" (no homo) for being so polite. (I used an online person called "JT" as an example; rather than a friend in real life, because I'm a nerd who don't have any friends in real-life.)

  217. (continued from above)

    Other than calling DML "angry" and "insecure", I've also betrayed him. I regretted about this because DML thought that he was defending me. But in reality, I don't agree with anything that DML had said. I didn't want anyone to ban "flirting," for instance. Sorry, DML. I can't imagine how sad DML feels right now when he once thought he that was defending me, and now I said that I don't praise his behavior at all.

    As Chief once said, one of his methods for emotional healing is reducing stress. A very good stress-reduction tenique is sex. Yes, Chief encourages sex as a form of emotional healing. "Sex, sex, more sex, more sex," as Chief used to comment habituately. Because sex is an important part of emotional healing, "flirting" should actually be *encouraged* in the comments section. In that way, we will be sure that all 180 followers will find a good sex partner, thus improving their sex life by reducing stress.

    Flirting in the comments section should be encouraged, especially for us health nerds. Us health nerds spend too much time worshipping Matt, so we don't have the time to hang out in the real-world to find a sex partner. The comments are a useful place to find like-minded 180 sex partners. So I don't mind that the comments section is actually turning into a 180 dating site. I think DML was solely responsible for pressuring Matt to create a new blog at 180 Metabolism, so it's easier for us to flirt at the new blog without distracting any new readers.

    So you thought it was a compliment for calling Andrew "a badass for taking the risk of consuming sugar [in] such large quantities"?
    Actually, it wasn't. I lied. It wasn't a complement. I called Andrew a badass to imply that I think eating that much sugar is risky. In reality, I don't think it's that risky at all. Our closest cousins, champanzees, ate way more sugar than Andrew. I called Andrew a "badass" to just make me appear more friendly and agreeable, as I will appear to believe consuming that much sugar is so risky that only a badass could take it. I just said this to gain approval from the anti-sugar movement.

    Sorry for calling some feminists man-haters. As I thought more and more about it, I realized that those people don't really hate men. It's actually more of a bias against men, rather than "hating" them in general. For example, if a conflict occurs between and male and a female, the male will be immediately assumed as responsible for the conflict, even though there is NO PROOF that the male is indeed responsible. In other words, if there's evidence suggest that it's the *male* is responsible, the evidence will be remembered. However, any evidence which suggests that the *female* is responsible will be *ignored* or rationalized away. This is because they have a confirmation bias against males. (Likewise, I'm personally biased against cops and schoolteachers because I had bad experiences with them.) Any off-topic discussion should be discussed in email.

    Perhaps our sexual orientations should also be turned around 180 degrees. In that way, the females will turn into lesbians, so they can enjoy sex with each other, without requiring those evil, sexist men. See, it's already starting to happen. Debbie had flirted with Jenny by calling her "cute." Hawaiigirl had actually flirted with Lisa E. by complimenting her response to me as "classy."

  218. @ Deb and Annette…..for sure proB's rock.Just had my morning quart smoothie.Definitely homemade would be better as its most likely stronger but I find simplicity appetizing and am kinda turned off as to what kefir looks like LOL.In a ready to drink delicious shake I love it!.I drink alot of beer and can tell you that at times I feel like a yeast factory to the point of manufacturing beer in my gut.I remember one time after a huge bender weekened and stopping drinking sunday I was standing on an elevator on a thursday morning and someone was saying it smelled like beer in the elevator.I knew it was me as I was smelling it all week.

    I was always against probiotics because I thought to myself that nature would not have evolved us so we needed to eat a cultured dairy product.But when you look at the long lived cultures,isn't a fermented food a part of their daily staples.Koreans have KimChee and Russians swear by kefir…though Russians die young from massive alcohol and cig intake which makes funny that they take a drink they say promotes well being and long life….they are alot like Californians….or so I hear.

    @Organism…I was watching this show on the Holy Koran and was blown away with like everything it had to say.Things like a huge percentage of American Scientists have actually converted to Islam after reading it.The reason is that it talks about so much stuff that is rooted in modern science yet was written by the Prophet Mohamed who was illiterate to boot.

    Things like saying the phrase in the book…and we create the seven heavens to protect the earth….there are seven layers to our atmosphere and each one is there to protect from a different source like UV rays etc.

    That the universe is ever evolving and growing getting into black holes and the like and that life on earth evolves with it…always changing to adapt.Talks about each step a fetus takes as it evolves inside of a womb…brain first then legs etc.For the life of me I have scoured youtube and cannot find these videos of the Holy Quaran.

    I am still Agnostic though but I feel that when the creator does wanna finally reveal I will accept him knowing…what choice do I have. :)

    From here on I promise to not make this into a religious blog as every one else should also.

  219. hey,
    i have an idea. how about a separate comment area for off-topic personal name calling, misogynistic, vacuous (btw, vacuous is not a "pretentious" word), stupid, flirty, bragging about how many women you bed-type comments? then i can avoid it and not have to wade through all this crap in order to read comments about the topic at hand.

    just an idea….

  220. Organism,

    I don't like to see anybody I even remotely respect have regrets on my account.

    So cheer up! You haven't "betrayed" me, nor am I sad. My self-esteem is not contingent upon the blame or praise of others.

    Or, as Buddha said: “As the rock remains unmoved by the storm, so the wise remain unmoved by praise or blame.” –The Buddha The Dhammapada, v81

    So there is no need to have any regrets regarding me.

    And stop with the self-abasement already. That alone can have a very negative affect on one's health.

  221. Wolf
    I gotta say I think kefir is awesome and really helped in my transition to grain eating, eg beneficial bacteria. I've developes quite an attraction to the sour taste from drinking it regularly. I wonder if when sweetness was a rare flavour eg mostly honey/seasonal fruit, if people enjoyed the sour flavour just as a change of taste scene.
    And I have been brushing my sore gums with coconut oil on my electric tooth brush the last couple of days. This has done more for my mouth than oil pulling with cold pressed oils. or brushing with salt and h2o2 as recommended by nagel. I also apply it to my face up to 6 times a day. I haven't found it that easy to incorporate it into my diet but I figure I'm probably getting enough through my skin and gums. I'm really pleased coconut oil and kefir are helping clear up your skin.

  222. Wolf
    It seems like people used to drink alot in the olden days without shortening their life or becoming sick. The beer may have been half the strength of present beer but they drank it all day like we drink water or coffee/tea. Many old codgers swore it was the secret to their health and long life. It was probably very probiotic and didn't have the additives of modern beer. And wine doesn't seem to have a bad effect on Europeans still eating a mostly traditional diet. May be we could drink more if we just ate the food and chose our tipple carefully.

  223. Wolf
    But having said all the above- the heathier I get the more sensitve I am to alcohol therefore less attracted to it.

  224. Organism
    I wrote a long reply to you but crashed and it disappeared into the internet ether.
    Is late now but best wishes.

  225. I have a neighbour who has the same pattern as I've had, in that he undereats and skips meals, puts off eating until he becomes dizzy etc.Except he eats an industrial diet while I eat wholefoods. Hes always complained about lack of motivation, laziness and being stuck in a rut. I said well you aren't eating enough-its not rocket science-and after months of repetiton from me he finally went out and bought a lot of groceries. I'd said if you've got food there you're more likely to eat it. Hes been eating regularly for a month or so and getting in his groceries and hes really gotten involved again in art and bought a bike and been cycling quite long distances, getting out of his flat etc So I think theres alot to eat the food because its pretty crap food quality, not what I would eat, but its still had big results for him. But thats kinda a lead in to what I wanted to say, which is from observing my neighbour and myself, I don't think we enjoy food as much as other people do. We're thin because we don't enjoy food as much as other people do. I can't see how its the components of the diet as we eat such different things. Even now, after months of eating regular meals, as soon as I'm stressed (6 weeks of weekly dentist visits and sore mouth) the first thing that goes is the appetite. Some people comfort eat when they are stressed. But I don't get comfort from eating, when I'm stressed its just an irritating bother. When people talk about sugar cravings I wonder if they crave sugar because its so enjoyable for them. I would be more likely to eat a sugar something if I was hungry but even then it hardly qualifies as a craving more a desire. I guess there is no way of knowing the subjective experience of eating.

  226. To anyone who gives a shit: I don't want to 'cheat on my husband" because I am "middle aged" and feeling good on HED. I don't want to cheat on my husband period.

    What a freak show this has turned into.

  227. And also, why the fuck are you attacking my freaking Husband?

    You are one sad, strange little man.

  228. Whut? DML I'm hoping this will blow over, cause it's getting out of hand. A very harmless joke on my part and an innocuous comment back are really being blown out of proportion. I didn't take offence, why should you? If people bug you, scroll down, man, just scroll the fuck down and ignore it.

  229. um What? You have NO business talking about respect and where in your twisted fantasy did I ever say I want to have sex with Chief?
    Me thinks you have a porn addiction and you are now hallucinating about it here.

    excuse while I go take a shower to get your creepiness off me.

  230. I am very disappointed in you, Matt, for making false statements about me. You weren't brushed off, neither was your emphasis on foods, leptin, omega 6 or nutrition. Those are all important. As I clearly stated to you in our email exchange, there was a problem in your mention of "normal lab results" in the article you wanted me to post on the STTM blog. "Normal" means nothing when it comes to lab results. And that is where I was referring to folks with organic reasons for hypothyroid. There were other issues I mentioned to you, as well, in those emails. I have no doubt that your information can help folks, but one thing you will never see me do on STTM is write an article dissing you as you have done me, and making implications that weren't there at all. That never helps folks who need help. Very disappointing.

  231. Janie-

    The entire point of your website is to diss something you don't believe in, instead offering alternative information that you feel is more correct. You don't worry about people's feelings or what impact it might have on drug makers. I don't either.

    Most people are told by their doctors that their lab results are normal. Whether they are or not is a matter of further discussion. But even Broda Barnes and his followers casually refer to low-normal to normal thyroid blood tests being less relevant than body temperature which was the vein I was writing in.

    The point was simple. You can have a healthy thyroid gland and have a low metabolism for other reasons, and those other reasons are by far the more common causes of a low metabolism.

    Minor discrepencies in your interpretation didn't mean the end result was "thanks but no thanks" for the post.

    If you were really interested in it, you would have voiced your problems with it and encouraged me to rework it instead of simply saying "let's move on."

    Actions have consequences. Deny someone an opportunity to share vital information with a group of people that need to hear it, and there will be a guaranteed reaction. This blog post is that reaction. After all, that is what a blog is for – expressing how you feel and what you think about something.

  232. @Sydney,I find the CO and kefir to be simply amazing coupled with eating to appetite and a bit beyond of whole foods….I just do not believe how good I am looking.I just looked in the mirror and love what I see.This is with eating my new carb choice….semolina bread.I take huge chunks of it slathered with butter when ever I get an urge to eat.I am also eating one bag of frozen fiesta blend veggies that has a ton of different bean types in it.

    I noticed something though and that is whenever I would drink the quart of sweetened kefir I would look bad afterwards.I was thinking its the candida die-off but am now feeling that its the sugar.Yesterday I slipped up and instead of my medium diet coke at Mcdonalds I drew a whole regular coke glass.The rest of the night I looked ill…..sugar is bad bad BAD!!!

    So today I went to buy more kefir and purchased the plain kefir in a different brand(fresh Made).Its nothing like the Lifeway sweetened kefir i was drinking in that i think its more like homemade.Its thick and chunky and you need to squeeze it out while the Lifeway is more like liquid yogurt.Much more sour to boot…..probably stronger because….. :)

  233. @Sydney…many reports saying alcohol may have health benefits and then two nights ago on the news they are now saying that moderate drinkers do live longer.I know this will seem silly but I feel that a good drinking every now and then actually acts in the body like exercise.I look and feel bad the day after exercise and feel better a day or two later.The same with me and alcohol in that I wake up feeling like hell and a day or two later I feel reborn.Maybe a signal from the damage done from exercise/drinking causes the body to rebuild??? ;)

    The most important thing though if you are a drinker is to eat alot of protein.The liver is the only organ that can rebuild itself and needs amino acids to make this work.This is why alkies get cirrohsis.My friends liver is destroyed because he drinks every day and just east a few pieces of pizza per day…thats it!! His liver doesn't have the resources to rebuild and he will not listen to me sadly……

  234. Debbie, I'm sorry that I creeped you out. I was just trying to flirt with the 180 women, but I soon realized that I looked creepy. Thanks for taking the guts to tell me I'm creepy.

    How beautiful are the 180 women? Syndey looks beautiful; just look at her avatar. I realize that she is very genuine, and she wouldn't fake her avatar. So I flirted with her by posting a big reply (tl;dr) with crappy humor. Sadly, her large love-letter to me had vanished.

    *** FLIRTING FAIL ***

    *** FLIRTING FAIL ***

    On a serious note, I apologize for sounding sexist. I should have replied immediately after I realized that I sounded sexist.

    But I still don't think that my comment is sexist. I will now post an angry defense of why I'm not sexist, just to save my face.

    Yes, there are many hardcore 180 followers who are male, but I didn't find any male who has been chatting with Matt vitually every day.

    Chief fits in this criteria, but I didn't include him because he developed his own high-everything diet independently from Matt and Ian C. I remember that Chief had said that he persistently eats 5000-7000 Calories per day, even before he had discoverned Matt's blog. So Chief is more of a follower of himself rather than a follower of Matt.

    Probably the closest male person who fits in the "180 groupie" archetype is Undertow. Undertow occasionally post his updates on Matt's blog. In fact, he even celebrated his HED anniversary on Matt's blog rather than on his own. But I never see him playing around with Matt like some female followers do.

    No offense, I'm not emasculating Undertow in anyway. In fact, Undertow is becoming more and more buff.

    I've included Hawaiigirl because she once said that she was attracted to Matt's abs. She also said that she was lucky enough to live in Hawaii so she can't cheat on her husband with Matt.

    I've included Elizabeth Walling because she posting a series of posts that she had just started HED for a month on her blog. I find it intriging that even though she was a long-time followr of Matt, she didn't actually start HED until last month.

    I've included Lisa E. because she was happy that Matt called her a "groupie." So I concluded that she wouldn't mind if someone else also call her a "groupie" of Matt. The real reason that I offended her is because my list didn't include any males. So I'm perceived as a sexist.

    I didn't want to do purposefully include a male who didn't fit into the 180 groupie criteria. In today's "politically correct" environment, anything which seems a little sexist will be perceived as overtly sexist. I don't want to practive "affirmative action" policies or "gender quotas" in my list of groupies, just not to look sexist.

    Call me a sexist pig, but sorry, I don't care. Again, I'm sorry for writing my comment which seem sexist without clarifying and I'm sorry that I didn't apologize immediately. I wouldn't do anything like this again.

    But I don't give a crap if my comment looks sexist, so go ahead and punch me in the face.

    Or, as Buddha said: “As the rock remains unmoved by the storm, so the wise remain unmoved by praise or blame.”

  235. Hi Paula (not Steve!),

    Thanks for your reply.

    Reminds me that I've been meaning to read Price's book ever since I discovered the WAPF, but never have. I have found that many WAPF recommendations don't seem to work for me (at the moment, anyway, and might never will, I'm beginning to see).

    Thanks again!


  236. Organsim ,

    I could point you out plenty of high 5's from guys but i really would like this stupid flame war to stop. I simply felt the fact that someone repeatedly shows up on 180 makes them a groupie like those that followed the grateful dead everywhere they went. dont fan the flames let it die …


    Janie, Im curious what was perceived as a diss ?

  237. Sorry, my mood has been really bad lately. I found out last night that I was not eating enough in the past few days, and probably this was causing my anger.

    I did some violent stuff around my house recently, but I wouldn't want to mention what I did.

    A lot of things that I said was really a joke, e.g. the stuff I said that I waited four days to reply because I wanted to look "cooler" than another person.

  238. Organism as a whole
    I called you Orgasm as a term of endearment, as most nicknames are. I don't dislike you even a little. Believe me you need to give it a rest, mate. You're offending people now and causing hurt feelings (eg 'the affair' that only exists in your mind.)

  239. OAAwhole
    Are you the man whose family won't let you eat what you want to eat? If you are, I thought that was a very REAL post. So maybe it would be more productive to tell us how thats going now.

  240. Hey Wolf
    At some point you gotta graduate to the kefir grains. I know they aren't the most beautiful animal, look like fish spawn, but you soon forget about that. It like having a pet or a plant, the satisfaction of seeing it grow. The ability to make it to the exact sourness. And free. And if you can get raw milk you can make super-kefir.

  241. Wolf
    I've thought the same about alcohol being similar to exercise, and have noticed the couple days after good effect (but this may be dose dependent as just one drink doesn't seem to have that effect). And made the analogy with inflammation. BTW my husband died at 48 fron liver disease caused by drinking and diabetes. But I wonder if the diabetes wasn't caused in the first place by his not eating-he'd go all day without eating, everyday. And he didn't make up for it by eating massive meals like Chief does.

  242. Sydney, sorry about that. I never "disliked" you in any way, even though I thought you disliked me.

    I've never really disliked Jenny, Debbie, or any other groupie. I was just siding with DML because I didn't want him to feel "rejected" by his support of my first comment.

  243. Sydney,

    Sorry to hear you lost your hubby, It's sad to think these things might have been avoidable with something as simple as eating. and I agree drinking without eating is a death sentence.

  244. Hey, Matt:

    I just heard a podcast with Janie and Googled her name.

    The Google suggestion was “janie bowthorpe quack.” The first result from that search? This page! HA HA

    Anyhoo, no one has commented on this page in a while, but I wanted to let you know the links at the top of this page are no longer working. Obviously, this is because you continue to updated and improve things. Just FYI.

    I enjoy and appreciate your website and great sense of humor.

    Be well…

  245. Hi Matt
    I am wondering about the desiccated thyroid…is that what Broda Barnes used to “cure” his patients? How do you feel about it? If it was so amazing, what makes you hesitant? What if we took your eating advice and also added the desiccated thyroid (I guess with a doctor’s help)…Is the DT a bandaid that you have to take forever or does it help heal the thyroid? I know everyone is different, but I am reading Hypothyroidism 2 (only first few pages) by Mark Starr and it made me wonder about the DT.

    I know so little about it that I don’t have an opinion either way, but I am sure you have done some research…



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