Ray Peat – PUFA

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It’s time for the Ray Peat finale. Yeah I know, it’s a day late. I moved out of my apartment yesterday and didn’t have enough mojo left to work on it. Anyway, we’ll pick up where we left off in the last Peat article. If you know anything about Peat, know that he has a vendetta against polyunsaturated fat – which could very well be his greatest scientific contribution because of the numerous negative actions that excessive polyunsaturated fat intake exerts on human tissues, organs, and glands like the wondrous thyroid.

“The name, “glycation,” indicates the addition of sugar groups to proteins, such as occurs in diabetes and old age, but when tested in a controlled experiment, lipid peroxidation of polyunsaturated fatty acids produces the protein damage about 23 times faster than the simple sugars do (Fu, et al., 1996). And the oxidation of fats rather than glucose means that the proteins won’t have as much protective carbon dioxide combined with their reactive nitrogen atoms, so the real difference in the organism is likely to be greater than that seen by Fu, et al.”

You hear low-carbers freaking out about raising blood sugar because it causes glycation of proteins similar to what grilling does to a juicy steak. Of course, eating carbohydrates does not raise blood sugar significantly in a healthy person – and all the focus should be on restoring insulin sensitivity and not avoiding glucose. In fact, one person contacted me last week to share with me a dramatic lowering of blood glucose levels and complete conquering of pretty severe insulin resistance after quadrupling carbohydrate intake – a result of eating a high-starch, low polyunsaturated fat diet. Several years of low-carbing gave her extremely high insulin levels (14-18 iu/M), which dropped to 4.7 in four months of RRARF.

Anyway, that aside, Peat points out that polyunsaturated fatty acids are a much more major culprit in protein glycation than glucose. That rings true for me, as I reversed many signs of aging years ago on a high sugar diet, but seemed to age much more quickly during my years on a low-carb diet, which featured lots of high-PUFA pork, poultry, and total polyunsaturated fat intake (hard to avoid when eating 200-300 grams of fat per day).

“These products of lipid peroxidation, HNE, MDA, acrolein, glyoxal, and other highly reactive aldehydes, damage the mitochondria, reducing the ability to oxidize sugar, and to produce energy and protective carbon dioxide.”

Basically the polyunsaturated fats, because they are more heat, oxygen, and light sensitive – degrade much more quickly in the human body. Although certainly better, in the grand scheme of things it probably doesn’t matter if you eat your PUFA with a bunch of vitamins, minerals, and antioxidants or not. When tissues are comprised of polyunsaturated fats they will simply deteriorate and age you more quickly. That’s just how it goes. And because of the byproducts of their degradation, glucose metabolism is eventually impaired – leading to insulin resistance, metabolic syndrome, and type 2 diabetes.

“Fish oil, which is extremely unstable in the presence of oxygen and metals such as iron, produces some of these dangerous products very rapidly. The polyunsaturated “essential fatty acids” and their products, arachidonic acid and many of the prostaglandin-like materials, also produce them.”

Peat is very controversial when it comes to fish oil. While we know that there are countless anti-inflammatory benefits to mega-dosing fish oil in the short-term, Peat seems unfazed. He knows that the more fish oil you have in your tissues, the more quickly you will deteriorate. I think Peat would look at fish oil as a get-health-quick scheme that is a terrible long-term investment.

“Brief exposures to polyunsaturated fatty acids can damage the insulin-secreting cells of the pancreas, and the mitochondria in which oxidative energy production takes place. Prolonged exposure causes progressive damage. Acutely, the free polyunsaturated fatty acids cause capillary permeability to increase, and this can be detected at the beginning of “insulin resistance” or “diabetes.” After chronic exposure, the leakiness increases and albumin occurs in the urine, as proteins leak out of the blood vessels. The retina and brain and other organs are damaged by the leaking capillaries.”

When I talk about polyunsaturated fat, I usually focus on the anti-metabolic effects of the fats. Peat’s research goes far beyond this to include the various ways they can do damage to tissues, blood vessels, and so forth.

“The blood vessels and other tissues are also damaged by the chronically increased cortisol, and at least in some tissues (the immune system is most sensitive to the interaction) the polyunsaturated fats increase the ability of cortisol to kill the cells.”

Like I’ve said before, loading up the tissues with polyunsaturated fat is like giving a sniper a nuclear bomb to take out threats in which a simple long range rifle would have been sufficient. Collateral damage. Yes that’s the name of an Arnold movie, and no his love of fairly unattractive maids cannot deter me from worshipping the Sperminator. I know Maria probably eats nothing but salad, and consequently has the sex drive of a panda. She knew what she was getting into. Arnold needs to be coming day and night! This video is even funnier given the recent fiASSco…

“When cells are stressed, they are likely to waste glucose in two ways, turning some of it into lactic acid, and turning some into fatty acids, even while fats are being oxidized, in place of the sugar that is available. Growth hormone and adrenalin, the stress-induced hormones, stimulate the oxidation of fatty acids, as well as their liberation from storage, so the correction of energy metabolism requires the minimization of the stress hormones, and of the free fatty acids. Prolactin, ACTH, and estrogen also cause the shift of metabolism toward the fatty acids.”

This translates to resting up and eating a high-carb, high-calorie, low-PUFA diet with a little added fat and protein and frequent feedings. It’s amazing what something so simple can do for glucose metabolism and subsequent health improvements that stem from an impairment in glucose metabolism.

“Sugar and thyroid hormone (T3, triiodothyronine) correct many parts of the problem. The conversion of T4 into the active T3 requires glucose, and in diabetes, cells are deprived of glucose. Logically, all diabetics would be functionally hypothyroid. Providing T3 and sugar tends to shift energy metabolism away from the oxidation of fats, back to the oxidation of sugar.”

The lack of glucose is one reason metabolism falls so sharply on low-carbohydrate diets, and why it takes a common root problem (hypothyroidism) and makes it worse. You can also see why having a higher metabolic rate would prevent insulin resistance and keep glucose oxidation firing on all cylinders. Type 2 diabetes could be described as an inability to use glucose properly, not a disease of consuming too much sugar. In fact, eating more carbohydrate improves the ability of your body to use glucose properly – generally-speaking.

“Sodium, which is lost in hypothyroidism and diabetes, increases cellular energy. Diuretics, that cause loss of sodium, can cause apparent diabetes, with increased glucose and fats in the blood. Thyroid, sodium, and glucose work very closely together to maintain cellular energy and stability.”

The vendetta that the mainstream has against sodium could be very inappropriate considering the low metabolic rate of the masses. In fact, eating more salt and more carbohydrate could be a more appropriate recommendation to give to a hypothyroid population. When looking at the origins of many of our common diseases with an open mind as Peat and I have, a very different picture emerges.

“In Houssay’s experiments, sugar, protein, and coconut oil protected mice against developing diabetes. The saturated fats of coconut oil are similar to those we synthesize ourselves from sugar. Saturated fats, and the polyunsaturated fats synthesized by plants, have very different effects on many important physiological processes. In every case I know about, the vegetable polyunsaturated fats have harmful effects on our physiology.”

Aside from his controversial statement about Houssay’s experiments, Peat is basically saying that human biology – and all mammalian biology with maybe the exception of hibernating animals that derive a massive benefit from the anti-metabolic polyunsaturated fats in autumn, favors saturated fats over polyunsaturated fats – or at the very least a high ratio of saturated to unsaturated fat. That is the case with virtually all mammalian milk and also the type of fats that are produced inside the body as well. While many adhere stubbornly to a simple-minded “if it’s natural it HAS to be good” philosophy, it could very well be that there are natural things that are more congruent, and natural things that are less congruent, with our general and individual physiological makeup. There can be better and worse options. Not all things are created equal.

“For example, they bind to the “receptor” proteins for cortisol, progesterone, and estrogen, and to all of the major proteins related to thyroid function, and to the vesicles that take up nerve transmitter substances, such as glutamic acid.”

In other words, polyunsaturated fats interfere with normal hormone action, including impairing the effectiveness of the thyroid hormones. This is significant, as you could have normal or even above-normal thyroid hormone production (or other hormones) and still be deficient at the cellular level.

“Unsaturated fatty acids activate the stress hormones, sugar restrains them.”

That is the crux of Peat’s belief system right there.

“The protective effects of sugar, and the harmful effects of excessive fat metabolism, are now being widely recognized, in every field of physiology. The unsaturated vegetable fats, linoleic and linolenic acid and their derivatives, such as arachidonic acid and the long chain fish oils, have excitatory, stress promoting effects, that shift metabolism away from the oxidation of glucose, and finally destroy the respiratory metabolism altogether. Since cell injury and death generally involve an imbalance between excitation and the ability to produce energy, it is significant that the oxidation of unsaturated fatty acids seems to consume energy, lowering cellular ATP (Clejan, et al, 1986).”

While Mark Sisson is calling excessive “fat metabolism” a paradigm shift – claiming it is superior, I don’t know if anything could convince me of this after my experience with a slow and steady degradation of health on a high-fat, near-zero sugar diet. Peat claims that it is recognized in “every field of physiology” that glucose oxidation is superior to fat. I don’t know about this.

“The bulk of the age-related tissue damage classified as “glycation end-products” (or “advanced glycation end-products,” AGE) is produced by decomposition of the polyunsaturated fats, rather than by sugars, and this would be minimized by the protective oxidation of glucose to carbon dioxide.”

Once again, Peat is casting the blame of glycation on decomposition of polyunsaturated fats more so than exposure to high levels of glucose.

“Protein of the right kind, in the right amount, is essential for reducing stress. Gelatin, with its antiinflammatory amino acid balance, helps to regulate fat metabolism.”

I had hoped to talk more about gelatin, but there’s really not that much to say about it other than the amino acid profile of gelatin, because it lacks methionine, cysteine, and tryptophan, tends to have a more anti-inflammatory effect. I’m not sure it is clear what the right kind and amount of protein truly is. It probably is very different for each species, and is highly dependent on activity levels, gender, age, and the context of the rest of the diet. But in the interest of improving glucose oxidation I don’t think there’s any question that eating more calories and more of those calories as carbohydrates – sugar, starch, or a blend of the two, achieves that effect in addition to reducing the overall protein requirement. “Animal” protein is fantastic for muscle-building and during the growth and development phases of life – which is why dairy and eggs for example are so rich in growth-promoting proteins. But otherwise plant proteins seem to keep inflammation much lower. I haven’t found a faster way to reduce inflammation personally or with my own family members than to reduce animal protein ingestion.

Anyway, we’ll let that conclude our month of Ray Peat. You should be pretty sick of Ray Peat by now and ready to move on. But it is important to see where he is coming from, particularly as it pertains to polyunsaturated fat.

When nearly every disease state we know of is being increasingly linked to inflammation, free radical production, and low mitochondrial activity – and the links between each one of the “Big 3” you might call them are clearly negatively impacted by excess polyunsaturated fat intake (which also happens to be the most dramatic dietary change that took place in the 20th century), Peat’s smear campaign against them becomes incredibly valuable and timely. There is no doubt that he is one of the greatest contributors to the understanding of the nutrition-health interaction of any researcher that has come before him. I hope we can continue to learn from him, while also building on his work – better refining and individualizing it in the future. Yay Ray!

www.raypeat.com

 

How to RAISE YOUR METABOLISM.

 

108 Comments

  1. great wrap up. looking forward to your new learnings in june! could anyone provide a list of foods highest in polyunsaturated fats? or what a diet should include when trying to eat less pufas? thanks!

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  2. Just a little editorial note – my insulin actually varied between 14-33 on my LC diet. Yep, 33. Healthy!!!

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  3. Good article, Matt. One thing that I would like addressed is Peat's obsession about avoiding PUFA in vegetables. Should people really be concerned when they eat above ground veggies?

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  4. There it is!!! Thank you for a satisfying wrap-up (on my favorite topic — I actually know how to do a thiobarbituric acid reactive substances assay).

    I did read elsewhere on the 'net (nowhere necessarily credible) that a low-carb diet can cause slowing of the thyroid through release of stored polyunsaturates (which makes sense). I am wondering if that's what happened to me (I avoided vegetable oils, but of course leaned on the nuts and pork sausage [LOL] for sustenance). Still having to take the dessicated thyroid to feel fantastic, and I'm super sensitive to PUFAs (cause my temp to drop more than half a degree the next day).

    Oh, and Tina Fey would say that your joke about Arnold and Maria was very "rough."

    http://ivytyler.tumblr.com/post/4570478645/a-rough-joke-by-tina-fey

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  5. Goomama – Nice assay. Is that a rough joke?

    Ivan-

    If you see any vegetables peering their heads out above the ground, immediately dive out of the way to avoid being poisoned by their fats!

    Yeah, I think Peat might be getting a little carried away with that one.

    Lynn-

    Thanks, 33 sounds better. That's awesome.

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  6. Awesome post but I'm left confused with the limited choices of starches in the diet if we take the whole PUFA thing too far.

    What is acceptable as a starch source besides yams, potatoes and white rice then?

    What about oatmeal?

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  7. Curious! so fish oils go rancid, makes sense just like most veggie oils, right? and so what about cod liver oil via my Granny?

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  8. So, why do you think Peat is so wrong on the protein requirement? He really is into high protein – and animal protein at that … could you elaborate on why you disagree with him on that point – is it just anecdotal?

    I really admire Peat's work but have a problem following his diet recommendations. Orange juice – or in fact juice of any kind – gives me a stomach ache – especially OJ (but oranges don't) and I just find juice too intensely sweet tasting. He says fruit is a good thing but then he seems to really only mean oj, grape juice, watermelon and grapes – which is pretty limiting. Plus too much dairy just seems to cause phlegm in my throat …. and I can't stand milk. I could easily eat a quart of yogurt – which is not Peat approved – but a cup of milk is just revolting to me. So, following Peat's specific dietary recommendations is just not something I can/want to do.

    Thanks to Peat though I have discovered the power of sugar – if I find myself out and about and I'm starting to get hungry for lunch I just suck a sugar cube/eat a ginger candy (the only candies I could find made with sugar – anyone know any others?) and it gets my blood sugar up pretty quick and gives me an extra half an hour of inner calm. This is quite amazing to me. Of course I feel a bit of a fool because sucking on a glucose tablet is the recommendation for diabetics when they are getting low blood sugar … but I thought I was above such 'basic' dietary advice …! I have yet to brave the ice cream as a bedtime snack recommendation but I plan to.

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  9. "While many adhere stubbornly to a simple-minded “if it’s natural it HAS to be good” philosophy, it could very well be that there are natural things that are more congruent, and natural things that are less congruent, with our general and individual physiological makeup. "

    Haha- that's me. Or anyway, I know that for me, piggies are my favorite animal to eat, and I shall keep on trucking with them. But hey, today I bought scrapple made from skin and jowls and liver and kidney and carbs!(cornmeal and whole wheat flour) At least the amino acid profile might be closer to Peat approved.

    It's a compelling argument that PUFA might be central to our degeneration, mainly for me because it represents one of the biggest shifts in our diet that coincided with reduced health.

    Was just reading 'Meat: A Benign Extravagance' and the author points out that pigs seemed favored in more sedentary cultures, and more woodland cultures because they are forest adapted and because they do a good job of eating the leftovers from human activity and foraging for the rest. Cows are much worse at converting scraps, and much better at lower quality high roughage feed (grass), but they need to move around a lot and were historically eaten more commonly by nomadic folks, especially grassland and semi-desert nomads. They also tended toward monotheism, while forest dwellers toward animism. This argument is probably not scientifically defensible, but maybe my taste for pork is related to my preference for a forest-y, animist-y, horticulture-y niche.

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  10. In light of recent events, that video should be recut to say
    " it's like when I'm having sex with my maid (instead of 'woman'). :-)

    Eating the last of my chocolate choc chip Talenti. DAMN THAT IS GOOD SHIT.

    Overall, I have been getting more protein lately and more carbs, less fat feel freaking strong and mean. Not as mean as Johnny Lawrence but close. I just need that headband and I will be EXACTLY like him.

    Funny thing is, looking back as a kid sugar rocked my world nine ways to Sunday and I was skinny as a rail. When margarine hit our house and butter was suddenly bad, when veggie oil became the cooking oil, and when Whole Wheat became best, I got fatter. hmmmm ya think? Nah.
    Love ya
    The President of the Old Ladies of 180 Fan Club
    (shirts available soon)

    Reply
  11. Deb–I want to see that shirt!

    I knew nothing about Arnie–love coming here and getting caught up on the news, and getting to laugh!

    "The conversion of T4 into the active T3 requires glucose"–why isn't that more widely advised?

    Hey, I've been increasing my carbs steadily over the last five months, buried my carbophobia, and my blood sugar problems are _gone_! They were so bad last year, and I kept thinking that it must be that tiny amount of carb I'd eaten and trying to reduce further: seems so illogical now. I had watermelon for breakfast this morning!

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  12. Rob A – have you read Marvin Harris? He has written a lot on cultural evolution, religion & animals as food, taboos or worship of specific animals. His work is awesome.

    Matt – thanks for these articles, (this one is great) and for bringing perspective to the recent fad of putting Peat on a pedestal.

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  13. That assay was specific for malondialdehyde (MDA). There probably is a rough joke in there, since I performed it on mouse brains.

    I had to go back through my thesis, since it involved ovariectomized mice, to which I gave either estrogen or placebo, and tested their cognitive performance on different memory tasks. In light of Peat's work, I have even more questions!

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  14. i liked what you said about "if its natural, it has to be healthy". I had this same mindset for the longest time when trying to recover from some serious health problems and only made it worse while consuming mass quantities of nuts, fruit, and vegetables.

    The thing I didnt think about was that these natural foods are only available at certain times and in limited quantities in nature. it is not "natural" to consume handfuls of shelled nuts from a bag in one sitting.

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  15. You're right, not all things are created equal. And while I agree that it very well could be possible, I'm not yet totally convinced that *all* PUFA are created equal. And I personally believe that it's no coincidence that naturally PUFA-rich whole foods also contain significant amounts of things like Vit E.

    Having said that, I rarely eat nuts and only occasionally eat other naturally PUFA-rich whole foods… but not because I consciously avoid them from fear of PUFA. I just don't seem to crave them all that often. So, maybe there's a reason for that. Perhaps the fact that I don't naturally crave those foods is a sign that even PUFA-rich whole foods are, in fact, not *optimal* for humans??

    I'm certainly willing to consider that as a possibility. But I'm not quite yet convinced that PUFA-rich whole foods (eaten whole) have the same affect on humans as PUFA oils, like Peat thinks. Mostly because of the gross lack of evidence.

    All of the science that Peat bases his PUFA conclusions on are studies using un-natural and/or un-whole sources of PUFA, administered in un-natural amounts and in un-natural contexts — not to mention rats. I'm not saying that I think Peat is wrong. I don't know if he's right or wrong. I just think his PUFA conclusions are based on flawed science. Plus, as others have pointed out, he tends to reference (and interpret?) studies that just don't always support his respective theory.

    However, that was a really good point about the anti-metabolic "benefit" that hibernating animals get from their high PUFA consumption. And I would be inclined to take that as a reasonable argument in favor of Peat's PUFA conclusions — more than any PUFA oil studies — because one would assume that those animals are eating whole food PUFA (and of their own free will). Humans are not 'hibernating' mammals (nor are we rats), but it is a good point to consider.

    Matt wrote:
    "When nearly every disease state we know of is being increasingly linked to inflammation, free radical production, and low mitochondrial activity – and the links between each one of the “Big 3” you might call them are clearly negatively impacted by excess polyunsaturated fat intake (which also happens to be the most dramatic dietary change that took place in the 20th century), Peat’s smear campaign against them becomes incredibly valuable and timely."

    That was another good point. But (lol!)… While it's true that PUFA consumption did indeed increase dramatically, the dramatic change was the man-made PUFA oil boom and the resulting widespread use of them in place of old-fashioned fats (veggie-oil "spreads" instead of butter, etc.). That takes me back to the hard to ignore observation that man-made PUFA oils didn't exist before our dramatic health decline in the US. Yet pork/lard, chicken (skin and all), eggs, oats, and other naturally PUFA-rich whole foods not only existed, pre-20th-century-health-decline, they were consumed liberally, without ill affects. That's tough to explain away.

    So, to me anyway, it's not so clear cut. I'm just not totally convinced, yet, of the all-PUFA-are-equally-bad-for-you (that's APUFAAEBFY for Johnny :-) conclusions of Peat.

    And it takes a lot more than just fancy writing ;-)

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  16. Ditto on all those points, AS. :-)

    My own relatively low consumption, the hibernating animals thing, the reluctance to embrace those contrived studies, the pig, chicken, eggs, oats, etc. thing- all of it.

    Well done, dear lady!

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  17. BTW, I like Ray and I too look forward to learning more from him. I continue to try to make sense of his research regarding PUFA — looking for what I might be missing — cause I'm disappointed that it's not more convincing.

    CM,

    I just saw your comments right after I posted mine. Great Points!

    CM wrote:
    "foods are only available at certain times and in limited quantities in nature. it is not "natural" to consume handfuls of shelled nuts from a bag in one sitting."

    I agree. I eat what's in season. And on the rare occasion that I do eat maybe a handful of nuts (or mixed in something), they were raw and un-shelled. One exception would be mac nuts -but no oils or adds. Most commercially packaged nuts are cooked/roasted with some kind of oil and sometimes other adds. They're gross to me. Especially peanuts!

    Yeah, the word "natural" is very subjective. People and food companies use that word a lot (to sell food products). But even if all of the ingredients in something can be called "natural" that doesn't make them whole foods. And whole foods with adds are not natural lol!

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  18. Hey Rob! You slipped yours in on me ;-)

    Thanks! I was just gonna comment to you a thanks for your last comments to me lol! And those were really good points you made on the intuitive eating blogpost, btw. No surprise there :-)

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  19. "Several years of low-carbing gave her extremely high insulin levels (14-18 iu/M), which dropped to 4.7 in four months of RRARF." [corrected: 14-33 iu/M]

    Wow, an ordinary person got their insulin measured? That's an expensive test, so I've heard.

    (Ray–) "Diuretics, that cause loss of sodium, can cause apparent diabetes, with increased glucose and fats in the blood."

    Funny that diuretics are commonly given for hypertension. Maybe that helps move metabolic syndrome to full blown diabetes. Also, although more commonly recognized as harmful today (despite this 2009 study claiming no harm*), diuretics used to be prescribed for pregnant women that had edema.

    *http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2628835/

    "my experience with a slow and steady degradation of health on a high-fat, near-zero sugar diet"

    Are you talking about sucrose, or carbs? Because I don't recall you ever going on a very low carb diet (<30g/day, or anywhere close). But just nitpicking, as I don't think it would result in any new revelations.

    Cr8tive _Eye said…
    Curious! so fish oils go rancid, makes sense just like most veggie oils, right? and so what about cod liver oil via my Granny?

    Yes, even Weston A. Price noted that CLO should not be overused, as it leads to deterioration after about a year. It is a temporary supplement for vit A + D. I think I've even seen him say it is probably due to the toxicity of the unsaturated fats, unlike modern critics who would say it's the vitamin A that's the problem.

    Goomama said…
    I did read elsewhere on the 'net (nowhere necessarily credible) that a low-carb diet can cause slowing of the thyroid through release of stored polyunsaturates (which makes sense)

    Yeah, this is related to what Matt mentioned in the last post, in that gaining fat may even be a reaction to decrease the circulating PUFAs.

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  20. Interesting study on an extremely-low fat diet in a human subject

    http://jn.nutrition.org/content/16/6/511.full.pdf

    Basically, one guy subsisted on 3 quarts of nonfat milk, nonfat cottage cheese, potato starch, orange juice, sucrose and some nutrient supplements for 6 months, less than 0.1% calories as PUFA.

    He experienced no negative symptoms, lost 14 pounds in 3 months despite eating at maintenance calories, had a "definite disappearance of a feeling of fatigue at the end of the day's work", and finally a complete cessation of the migraines he'd been having since childhood.

    His serum levels of arachidonic and linoleic acid as percentage of total fatty acids almost halved in 6 months. If that reflects the change of unsaturated fat in tissues (or maybe just adipose tissue), this diet seems like a pretty effective way to rapidly clear the body of PUFAs, compared with the commonly cited 600 days for tissue half-life of PUFAs.

    Anyone tried this kind of ultra-low fat diet? I suppose a fruitarian diet would have similar effects, but the addition of quite a bit of protein is probably good to preserve liver and thyroid function.

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  21. Hi Matt, couldn't agree more about cutting the nasty chemically extracted (as in oils) and worse chemically modified (as in the new inter-esterified margarine)and also the omega 6 issue.

    I've put together a resource those wanting to avoid omega 6 and too much PUFA in general. Charts of lowest to highest Omega 6 in meats, seeds, nuts, oils and seafood.
    http://paleozonenutrition.wordpress.com/2011/05/10/omega-6-and-3-in-nuts-oils-meat-and-fish-tools-to-get-it-right/
    I hope you find it useful

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  22. Antonio- missed your comment there. I haven't read anything Marvin Harris has written, though I've encountered the term 'cultural materiialism' before, and I gather he's a big name in that field. Jason Godesky of the former Anthropik Network was all about cultural materialism, and it makes sense to me, what I know of it.

    Makes me think of the caveat in cultural relativism I came across, that it's not just a matter of 'some people do x, therefore we can't judge,' but more that 'if x helped people successfully live in place in an ecological niche for generation after generation, then it would appear to be adaptive, and lies outside the scope of our moralism, and we can't reasonably project our values on them.'

    Anyway, any recommendations on a good book of his to start with? Thanks for writing, amigo. I always appreciate your comments.

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  23. AS-

    Chicken was not consumed liberally. Chicken was never a preferred meat when others were available, nor were chickens fed excess of PUFA. They roamed around eating bugs. Pigs roamed around eating anything and everything, and most pork came from small farms that fed the pigs scraps, including leftover skim milk from the cow and stuff out of the garden. Today they are grain fed. Modern animal production has caused chicken and pork to be higher in PUFA. They are still fed "whole foods," but high-PUFA (omega 6 specifically) whole foods, which effects the composition of their tissues the same as vegetable oil does – albeit with less vitamin E and selenium protection that you might get from eating nuts and seeds.

    Soy oil and walnuts effect the composition of our tissues relatively the same. Soy oil is just worse because it lacks antioxidants and is already rancid by the time it goes in. This is obviously much, much worse. A league of its own. But that doesn't mean that if you have a low metabolism that it doesn't matter whether you eat walnuts or coconuts. I think it does matter.

    Ela-

    Carbs were SOOOOOO framed! I experienced the exact same thing on low-carb, having blood sugar and mood issues if I had a single banana. Doh!

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  24. Cr8tive-

    Yeah, cod liver oil is a no go as far as I'm concerned, except maybe in very small amounts. Like 1/2t per day or something.

    Dinosaur-

    Higher protein intake may be preferable. I don't know. It seems to have advantages and disadvantages. I have trouble eating much of it without having obvious signs of sympathetic nervous system activation (which is what Peat is trying to avoid).

    Antonio-

    Thanks cousin. Most people have no maturity when it comes to such things. Peat is either right about everything or wrong about everything. He is either a hero or a villain. Superman or Lex Luther. No middle ground. I've yet to meet anyone in life that is all right or all wrong about anything.

    Peat's work is more important than most. That doesn't make it impervious to mistakes or immune to some healthy banter about the contradictions in it.

    Rob-

    Ever go all beef instead of all pork?

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  25. Julianne -

    That's pretty good, but the format isn't exactly memorable, which is why in the chart I made I did it by an easily-rememberable 2-digit percentage.

    But since you have both the 6 and 3 data, you should go through and create a ratio of 6:3 for each food. That would hammer the point home about nuts, seeds, peanuts, pork belly, etc. very well.

    Peat's point is keeping total PUFA low and not worrying too much about percentages between the two. I think both are important factors.

    CM-

    Nuts and seeds and grains are all highly seasonal foods as well, coming into harvest only through a 1-2 month period at high latitudes, which also coincides with a long winter (and maybe a biological need for lowered food requirements). It also coincides with fruiting season at high latitudes, and PUFA and sugar may be a great combination for storing fat and lowering metabolic rate via insulin resistance.

    But now we eat sugar and PUFA every single day in the industrialized world. This is a clear violation of the laws of seasonality, and there could be a penalty for it.

    Jared – Talking about sucrose/fructose.

    Collden-

    That's how I interpreted Peat's PUFA information. He repeatedly talks about all the benefits rats experience on a fat-free diet and then recommends that humans crush ice cream and coconut oil and full-fat dairy, etc.

    I'd love to try a "PUFA cleanse" like that, and could even write a book about it called THE F.A.D. DIET (as in fatty acid deficiency)

    Reply
  26. I am wondering more and more about this pufa hatred that most people seem to have developed. It seems to make a lot of sense that omega-6 excess would be detrimental to one's health, especially when you see studies done on mice showing that they became obese in 4 generations on a 1:40 ratio of 3-6. But then it doesn't make sense in my own life. Both of my grand-parents ate a lot of margarine and other oils high in pufa and I have never been fat (only my father's father was kinda plump, the other were thin). As a teenager, I used to eat A LOT of mayonnaise everyday and I never became fat in any way. I was 70-72kg for 1m81. I was an athlete but it shouldn't matter. If Pufa makes you fat it should make everyone fat. especially as my "ancestors" ate tons of it !

    In december, I had a terrible rash on my skin which wouldn't go away no matter how much cream I would apply to it. Then came Christmas Eve when i ate tons of pufa. The next morning, my skin had improved dramatically. The next day I ate a lot of pufa again to see what would happen and the dat afterwards my rash was gone. I had had it for weeks, I'm not kidding. And it went away in 48 hours.

    I have observed that my rash got worse if the ratio of saturated fat to polyunsaturated fat increased. It was okey-ish eating pasta but terrible when i ate white rice or potatoes with coconut oil.

    I have also noticed that I feel better when eating more pufa and less saturated fat. I don't really know why and it is difficult to isolate things so it could be a coincidence, but still it is my impression. I feel more like socialising, I am less anxious, I don't seem to have brain fog, etc.

    However, I must admit that pufas give me side pain (liver? pancreas? dunno…), which is an interesting discovery as I had had that kind of pain for years without knowing the culprit. It also seems to leave my feet less warm.

    In my opinion, it can cause a lot of stress to avoid pufa completely in our society. And what if, like in my case, dairy fat (or any dairy) gives me acne? Beef fat is hard on the digestion… That leaves olive oil which is not even that low in Pufa ! (unless you shop at organic shops and don't mind paying 40eur/l for macadamia oils and stuff.

    Saturated fat, I must admit, is superior for sex drive and testosterone production. You certainly feel the difference. Even though eating enough calories and a lot of starch seems to give me high testosterone levels.

    I would like to know if I'm the only one who feels like pufa may be beneficial?

    It's stupid but I really feel bad about it. I'm always thinking about things like:
    - What if it increases my chances of having cancer?
    - what if it makes my kids fatter like those mice
    - what if I get alzheimer (like several people in my family)
    - what if, what if, what if lol

    Martin V.

    Reply
  27. Keeping total fat low was better for the rash than eating saturated fat. I tried to follow the Mcdougall diet for a while and my skin was fine. It only got terrible when eating mostly butter and coconut oil as fat sources.

    I don't know if the EFA "deficiency" caused the problem (it was very cold outside, which tends to give me rashes) but I know for sure that eating EFA's definitely cured it in a matter of hours !

    Then again my experience doesn't make sense when you listen to peat or when you keep in mind that we could not have eaten a lot of Pufa during most of our evolution.

    That's why I came up with a theory. Maybe just like people eating a calorie dense diet from birth feel like crap on a less calorie dense diet, maybe people used to high pufa intake feel worse if they don't eat as much pufa.

    Martin.

    Reply
  28. And when you see people like Dough Graham or Durian Rider, it makes even less sense to eat a lot of Pufa. if those people get enough eating only bananas and some greens, then there's no way eating pasta with butter could lead to deficiencies.

    Yet, I feel better with pufas.

    Martin.

    Reply
  29. I agree that isolated poly-oils are toxic. But I can't quite make the leap yet, to the notion that whole-foods high in polys are unhealthy.

    For instance Walter Willet is absolutely adamant that high nut consumption (Lots of polys in them nuts) is associated with LOWER all-cause mortality rates.

    Antioxidants, polyphenols, etc. in nuts seem protective and perhaps negate polys dark-side. 7th Day Adventists eat lots of nuts and live longer and healthier than most.

    I even emailed Willet to see what he thought of all the internet chatter about the evils of polys, in light of his suggestion to eat high-poly nuts.

    He emailed me this back…

    "The anti omega-6 people are the nuts. There is a huge body of evidence of benefits for these fatty acids…you might find my book, Eat, Drink, and Be Healthy useful on this point,

    WW"

    Reply
  30. I also wonder why pufa + sugar should mean disaster as I used to eat tons of sugar as well as mayonnaise and margarine. I don't remember having any problem with sugar whatsoever. I only started experiencing problems when I stopped eating the way I used to.

    In my opinion, a lot of saturated fat with a lot of fruit makes me feel weird but pufas don't seem to have that effect.

    Also, many people claim that fat makes you feel more satisfied but I wonder if it's not limited to pufa's. They make me feel full faster and cut down my appetite quite a bit.

    Magadartinguin Veguederbeguedekeguede ! lol

    Reply
  31. Hey Martin,
    I eat almonds daily, like a handful and I also eat raw cheese when I eat lots of fruit. I think ratio has some bearing on it all. If I ate a lb of almonds each day and a cup of cheese with my apple things might go badly for me.
    So lots of fruit, a little fat, you're good. I did WORST on tons of coconut oil, beef tallow etc and fatty meats and fruit too. So yeah, I hear ya.
    In other news, my daughter has only one week of school left and then we are off to Canada for a week! WHEE!
    I will report on how it is food wise etc.
    Your President of the Old Ladies of 180 Club
    deb

    Reply
  32. Collden – in my semi anorexic days I literally did do that diet (replace potato starch with wheat and whole fruit for sucrose and oj and add in marmite). Plus I wasn't eating sufficient calories (probably 1,500/750 – so not anorexic low but not enough for my body's needs). My acne completely cleared – but I got very very depressed. Now whether this was because I was not eating enough calories – probably – or because I was eating such low fat – possibly – I don't know.

    Regarding PUFA how does Ray Peat explain why Middle Eastern diets contain a lot of PUFA – seeds and nuts seem to be in everything – and yet I'm not aware that they have high cancer rates. I don't know what their health figures are – does anyone?

    Reply
  33. Good point Matt about the different diets of chicken and pigs from the historical diets But I can't imagine they each didn't eat some grain. Maybe not a bunch of GM corn and soy, but it's damn hard to raise a chicken without supplemental grain rations, though I'm open to evidence that breeding over the last century or so has changed that formerly attained quality.

    But pigs, yeah, they used to be the garbage disposal units that made fatty (and thus salt-curable and storable) flesh. Still, I contacted one of my farmers when I lived in Indiana, http://www.fiedlerfamilyfarms.com, and asked him about this dude: http://www.texasgrassfedbeef.com/id78.htm who exclusively forage-raises his pigs, and he had looked into him, and gathered that the pigs were definitely lean. But in my farmer's estimation, it would be cruel to his animals not to give them at least some supplemental grain, maybe because they're adapted to it at this point. I know that Nature's Harmony Farm in Georgia http://www.naturesharmonyfarm.com , awesome folks, are raising pasture and whey fed pigs, though I'm not sure if they're totally grain free. So I'm not sure if it's possible to raise totally grainless pigs and still capture lots of fat, one of the primary reasons folks have historically kept pigs. One more confounder- pigs have gone feral in some places, more readily than most domesticated animals, and one imagines they receive a relatively small or insignificant proportion of their food as grain.

    All of which is to say, I'm not entirely sure how to judge the truth value of the notion that pigs were necessarily low in PUFAs in an absolute sense, even when they were eaten more regularly, though I think it's clear they're higher PUFA now in CAFO pigs than they were historically. Anyone know more about that?

    And to answer your question, Matt- yeah, I've tried to go all beef. I just don't have a taste for it. Truthfully, most of the meat I eat is sausage or plain ground, and that's usually pork, though I will have beef roast every week or so, and I try to get some beef liver at least every couple of weeks. Beef burgers are not bad, but generally too lean for my taste, and cooking them in rendered tallow or refined coconut oil isn't appealing. I've definitely tried to gear myself toward ruminants in my meat choices, both because of the PUFA thing, and because grass-fed cows and sheep and buffalo are as close to an ecologically benign or even regenerative animal food I can think of, and that's important to me. But all the recent talk of intuitive eating and trusting my tastes makes me think I should not stress about liking pig. I think I can identify orthorexia in myself when I start telling myself what I 'should' be eating, and not asking what I 'want' to be eating. And typically when I'm considering beef, I hear myself saying that 'should' be my preference, even if I 'want' more scrapple or sausage. So in a move to counter my perceived instances of orthorexia, I've so far been drawn to affirming pig for me.

    But hey, I'm open to new ideas or approaches if anyone's got 'em.

    Reply
  34. I'm beginning to think, at least for myself, that as long as my temps are up, I eat sufficient calories, am getting enough sleep, and knock a few people's teeth out each week that eating some PUFA every so often makes little difference in my overall health. I was low PUFA for about 8 months and noticed no advantages past what simply raising my temps did for me. I guess it's possible I didn't stay low PUFA long enough to purge all the bad out (30 years of shoveling it in .vs 8 months without). If it takes longer than that then SI (screw it). How about this back to the basics equation:

    Temps up = eat WTCIWWIWI including PB&J sandwiches for breakfast the last two mornings

    Reply
  35. We just stayed at a farm stay this week that did grass fed beef. They sold pork in their store from pigs raised on "pasture" (apparently their pasture is partly wooded and they do a fair amount of foraging). Haven't eaten any of the pork we bought, but supposedly it is leaner than grain raised pork. We are also reading Charlotte's Web to our kid which details the "garbage disposal" diet of pigs in the early 20th century. This bygone animal could actually go outdoors or be exposed to a human who wasn't in a clean suit. Today's genetically modified pigs are so specialized to create a certain size from a pre-determined amount of grain, that they live in a laboratory-type environment. If you tried to take one of these pigs out to let it forage it would die right away. So yeah, trying to raise these animals without grain is cruel. There are pigs out there though (you have to at least thank 4H for keeping the idea of competitive husbandry alive) that can be raised without grain supplementing.

    Reply
  36. Hi, Colldén, I agree that a very-low-fat diet is the best way to displace PUFAs. I was on a similar diet. I will say that I was on a 80-10-10 diet. You may be confused. So I will clarify. What I mean is this. I mean that I eat a diet based on a macronutrient ratio of 80-10-10. The ratio is 80% carbs, 10% protein, and 10% fat. For some of you, it may remind you of Doug Graham's diet, which is a vegetarian diet based on the same ratio. But it's not. It's just a ratio, which just matches that vegetarian diet.

    My diet differs from Doug Draham's diet. I am not vegetarian, and I avoid eating polyunsaturated fatty acids. Not entirely, though. Polyunsaturated fatty acids are found in almost every food, but there are foods which have less PUFAs. What I'm focusing is to eat the foods which contain the least PUFAs. But of course, it's impossible to avoid them 100%, but I'm not worrying if I get 1% or 2% of PUFAs.

    That being said, I will avoid refined sugar. Why? Because of lots of reasons. One of the reasons is that it lacks nutrients, except sucrose. Another reason is that I didn't feel well when I ate sugar with vegetable oils. It's a fact that sucrose cause lipid peroxidation, which is the last thing you want when your body is already burdened with PUFAs.

    But I am lenient on fruit and fruit juice. That may be suprising, since it's kinda weird because fruits also contain sugar. So why I'm eating fruit while not eating sugar?

    Two things. Fruits have vitamin C, which have been shown to repair damaged lipids. Specifically, vitamin C has been shown to repair lipid peroxides. In addition, I have an anecdote in which I feel well if I take a vitamin C supplement. The same happens when I eat lots of fruit. So this is my justification.

    Basically, I was on that diet for six months. I started that diet in the beginning of 2011. So far, I have experienced no positive symptoms. But sometimes, when I drink liquids with balanced electrolytes, I feel euphoric. I feel calm, sharp, and energetic. My heart rate increases sharply. I breathe better; I breathe with my diaphragm rather than with my chest. And I feel like that my body is growing bigger and taller. It seems like that my body is constantly in an electrolyte deficiency, and only when I get balanced electrolytes, it seems to rush.

    Reply
  37. Martin,

    You are likely suppressing your immune system by eating PUFAs. That is why the rash goes away.

    As you have noticed, PUFAs are bad for the liver.

    If your body is full of PUFAs with a suppressed immune system, then you will naturally have some (temporary) negative effects as your immune-system comes back to life.

    Reply
  38. Matt,

    True. Food, whole or otherwise, is not what it used to be. Those were very good points. I had no doubt you would have 'em and no doubt you would bring 'em! And I'll give you the chicken thing. Chicken wasn't consumed everyday like, say, pork. My dad grew up living/working on his family's farm (been in the family for many many years–in WV–small world, huh?). I learned a lot from him and my grandmother/his mother, who was Cherokee. I spent most summers on the farm growing up–CA the rest of the year–but haven't been back to either in years.

    Anyway, the hens were eaten as they reached the end of their egg-laying days. And the whole chicken was used — minus its head.

    You're right, in our industrialized world, even in the growing/raising of "whole" foods/animals (and not just those rich in PUFA), there are clear violations of the laws of nature and, I agree, there could be a penalty for it. Whole food is not so whole nor natural, these days.

    Very nicely done, Mattverick, you stud. Take me to bed or lose me forever! :-)

    Mattverick wrote:
    "I've yet to meet anyone in life that is all right or all wrong about anything.
    Peat's work is more important than most. That doesn't make it impervious to mistakes or immune to some healthy banter about the contradictions in it."

    Agreed.

    Martin V. wrote:
    "Saturated fat, I must admit, is superior for sex drive…"
    "You certainly feel the difference."

    Hey, maybe THAT explains why my body doesn't much crave PUFA-rich foods?! I certainly feel the difference lol! :-)

    Reply
  39. Rob,

    Have you been to Nature's Harmony Farm here in Georgia? They're definitely well known and well liked, I hear. But I haven't been to their farm yet.

    Reply
  40. Organism as a Whole

    Yes I've read some stuff on your blog, seems like you've had a lot of problems with electrolyte imbalances, among other things… On the whole, would you say your health has improved or worsened since you discovered Peat and began incorporating his principles?

    When I first began eating way more sugar on a regular basis and started to get problems with headaches, nausea and a constant feeling of being slightly hung-over, I was initially thinking it may have been caused by electrolyte inbalances since I jacked up my potassium intake by quite a bit, then I thought it could've been a symptom of low cortisol. But then I discovered that simply adding more protein at breakfast completely eliminated both the headaches/nausea and afternoon energy crashes. Since adequate protein (particularly at breakfast) is supposedly critical for good liver function, I'm thinking now that it may have been an issue with insufficient liver detoxification of lactate or endotoxin or something like that.

    Reply
  41. Matt

    A FAD diet experiment would definitely be interesting, though I'm guessing it would take years at least on such a diet to deplete PUFAs enough find out whether they're really essential or not. I think Peats recommendation of high-sat fat foods is a more long term thing since you're probably gonna run into problems with fat-soluble vitamins at some point on a completely fat-free diet. Maybe you could try to call in tomorrow on Rubins next interview with Peat and ask him.

    Forgot to mention another thing about the ultra-low fat diet study, he ended up with a very high respiratory quotient on the diet – like 1.15 after a meal (the normal maximum is 1 after eating a pure carbohydrate meal). This usually only occurs when you're converting carbohydrates into fat during positive energy balance, but he was actually losing a lot of weight during all of this, so not sure what was going on there. Could be just that he was converting a lot of carbohydrates into fat that went into displacing an even greater amount of liberated stored fat.

    If so that would tie neatly into Peats theory that fat loss can actually be boosted by increasing carbohydrate oxidation, by allowing the liver to more efficiently excrete excess fatty acids into urine/bile with a glucoronic acid modification.

    Reply
  42. Collden, my problems are probably caused by a potassium deficiency.

    I had a lot of symptoms associated with potassium deficiency:

    - Excessive urination and thirst.
    - Insomnia
    - Tinnitus
    - Visual snow
    - Muscle cramps after eating
    - Heart irregularities

    I controlled most of those problems by switching to a diet high in below-ground vegetables and fruit.

    Reply
  43. I just heard Sally Fallon's husband had a heart attack. Seriously.

    Reply
  44. Collden,

    The study with the one guy is really interesting. How low does PUFA content get though? Would his diet actually achieve lower levels than if he ate full fat cottage cheese and milk [instead the skimmed versions]? I think the Kitavans have more PUFA in tissues than would be expected from the tiny amount in their diets.

    Reply
  45. Hey Matt and crew.Lately I have stumbled upon two things that have brought alot of happiness to my life in the form of fatloss,sex drive,mood and energy.I wanna post this here because it has alot to do with Matt's strong stance on the "carb wars" and how we might be wrong in trying to drop carbs from our diets.Just look at all the low carb sites that are slowly saying its ok to eat rice and potatoes and now fruit.They claim LC but slowly the amounts will start to come back up to SAD levels.

    I have nothing against LC….just need to point that out.Its just that I have a hard time believing that all the doctors and LC gurus seem to be oblivious of Japan and the known health of its people.They eat rice of god forbid wheat(noodles)at every meal.The starch is main component with toppings like eggs,fish and meat with some vegetables.WHY WHY is this not mentioned….instead all I hear is that the Japanese eat vegetables and raw fish when a staple served in their homes is beef and potato stewed in soysauce or noodles with pork and veggies in soup.I also have found that in Japan its common thought that to lose weight you just cut the fat…..OMG!!

    So recently I have decided upon following the Japanese style diet just Americanized for some meals.I am talking bagels and 3 hard boiled eggs with cup of joe for breakfast from local NYC cart.Lunch and dinner is typically a starch and some meat and veg Japan style in that I top with soy sauce usually.I tried cutting the protein rich foods out two days ago but found I started getting pains in my liver(why is that)and it went away when I put back in the meat.

    Weightloss is superb of course due to it being low calorie meals.I know it goes against the high amount of food you push to drive metabolism but I believe now that one needs to do high and low calorie wise for best health.Its in tune with your recent posts on intuitive eating.See I always seem to do well on low calorie and then 3 days in my body rejects and I bloat out.So I am starting to notice that if I eat an extra HED style meal(butter,rice,meat) that day,I wake up with looser fitting pants.Could be why skinny people stay skinny…they eat intuitively and feast.Then the appetite is regulated from the feast the day before for a day or two after at which point….for me at least I bloat and appetite goes thru the roof.This is new to me and today I have eaten only 1000cal and not really hungry attributed to the feast 2200cal from yesterday.

    Wow,thats long LOL.What do you guys think?

    Reply
  46. In case my point did not get thru well.I believe now that the best tool in the war against fatloss is to….first cut calories to lose fat…then to eat extra when you feel the diet stops working.I tried the Leangains diet a few months back and found fatloss was superb and muscle growth also but hate any diet based on meat.I now think that LeanGains is working(fatloss wise)due mainly to the fat that you double calories on days you WO…..not that you intermittant fast or that its very high protein(the high protein does pack on the muscle though if thats what you want)but that you alternate low calorie days with high calorie which prevents the slowdown of metabolism.I find that I have to take a dump and feel hot and sweaty a 1/2 hour after this large meal.

    Reply
  47. Forgot to mention that I eat my favorite meal or all alot now…sushi!! :)

    Here are some typical Japanese meal pics.I find it funny that in the forum I found the links to these pics a person said "they eat rice and meat so the main reason they are healthy is that they just do small portions" LMAO!

    http://www.google.co.jp/images?Hl=ja&rlz=1T4HPND_jaJP328JP328&q=%E7%84%BC%E3%81%8D%E9%AD%9A%E5%AE%9A%E9%A3%9F&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&biw=1251&bih=747

    Reply
  48. I think once you (Matt) mentioned that Ray Peat still has a full head of black hair. I don't want to burst your bubble but, check it out . . .

    http://www.worldpuja.org/archives/2009-10-10_b/

    Still looks good for being 80 something though.

    Reply
  49. I have been eating a diet similar to Wolfstriked's. Lots of (different) starches with everything else in a supporting role. A meal might be a ton of beans and rice with only a little added veg and an egg or two. Or potatoes with salsa and a bit of cheese.

    I never decided to do that, though – these have just been the foods I've wanted to eat lately, and the idea of adding butter to them, or reversing the ratios, just seems unappetizing. Maybe it's the hot weather.

    Reply
  50. I was wondering, since I believe we can only be misled about food when it bypasses our senses, just what they do to make the PUFAs not smell or taste rancid, which is the natural indicator that we shouldn't be eating them. Apparently there is bleaching and degumming of oils, which I don't know what that is, but more importantly, there is the deodorizing process. According to the WAPF, "The standard deodorization process removes a large portion of the omega-3 fatty acids by turning them into trans fatty acids." Now, already this is surprising. For one, a major promotion point of soy and canola oils is that they are about 10% omega 3s, which isn't true if they change most of them to trans fats during processing. Second, if turning to trans fats is the way to deodorize, wouldn't that make the oil less liquid? And third, as pointed out by the WAPF article, they don't even list the trans fat content on the label. "Although the Canadian government lists the trans content of canola at a minimal 0.2 percent, research at the University of Florida at Gainesville, found trans levels as high as 4.6 percent in commercial liquid oil."

    (http://www.westonaprice.org/know-your-fats/559-the-great-con-ola)

    This brings up several questions. What are the dangers of trans fats? Neither Matt nor Ray Peat has said much about them. Ray Peat has at least said that he would actually prefer hydrogenated vegetable oil to regular; at least if it is fully hydrogenated, the fats should all be saturated. But they say the whole danger of hydrogenated oils are the "partially hydrogenated" trans fat byproducts (up to 40%, if the WAPF article is to be believed). If they do this to deodorize oil, does this mean that the trans fats don't oxidize? And do they have any of the hormone interfering dangers as the PUFAs?

    And what of the claim that trans fats don't exist in nature? It's commonly said that trans fats are in meat and milk products. (Matt indicated in Dec 2009 that the "artificial" trans fats are in the "CIS configuration", but by very definition, a trans fat does not have a CIS bond, right? Sorry to turn the spotlight to this, Matt.)

    Reply
  51. So, for the ladies: eat too much PUFA and you'll get a FUPA.

    Reply
  52. Rob A

    yeah cultural relativism & anthropological theory is Harris. great stuff. I don't know Godeski, I'll check him out . that quote makes sense, but its not the same as moral relativism, which some confuse.

    his work on cultural evolution & animals is awesome. How we developed farming & food systems, religious taboos/diet rules on animals, love & hate relationships with animals, eating rituals, etc

    check out 'Food & Evolution' …or 'Good to Eat'. he has a bunch of good books.

    peace
    a

    Reply
  53. Here in Thailand my friend's (thai) girlfriend told him to not put peanut butter on his sandwich b/c it'll make him fat. He posted it on facebook and the consensus was "lol everyone knows its the bread that'll make u fat" etc.

    Just thought I'd share

    Reply
  54. Arnold Video Transcript:

    The greatest feeling you can get in the gym, and the most satisfying feeling you can get in the gym is — the pump. Let's say you train your biceps…. Blood is rushing into your muscles and that's what we call the pump. Your muscles get a really tight feeling like your skin is going to explode any minute and it's really tight and it's like somebody's blowing air into it, into your muscle. It just blows up and it feels different. It feels fantastic.

    It's as satisfying to me as cumming is….ya know, as having sex with a woman [and] cumming. And so can you believe how much I am in heaven. I am like getting the feeling of cumming in the gym. I'm getting the feeling of cumming at home. I'm getting the feeling of cumming backstage when I pump up, when I pose out in front of 5,000 people. I get the same feeling. So I'm cumming day and night. I mean it's terrific, right? (laughs) So you know, I'm in heaven.

    Reply
  55. Now that Ray May is over, it's time for some Bruce June, every day at noon. Tell us the wisdom of the former Aajonus dissenert turned Matt Stone dissenter's ideas. I can't wait for Aajonus October.

    Reply
  56. @Jim,I agree with the eating this way is appetizing.In past I would try to eat a diet that is iso-caloric by striving for equal amounts of calories from carbs/protein/fat.I always hated that I had to add in more protein.Starch as mains constituent with small amounts meat is more palatable IMO.And sushi is delicious and fits perfectly!

    @Kirk,the idiocy kills me at times.Any time I ever lost weight in past was by cutting calories.I even did the zero carb and stagnated fast and had to cut calories to lose weight to reach goal.I got ripped using iso-caloric but I was starving so bad at the end I was smelling food from blocks away.

    @Lance,wow pancakes!! Now that I seem to be handling carbs way better maybe I'll hit Ihop for a stack this weekend….all for the metabo boost of course!!

    Reply
  57. I've posted this before, but I think this is the appropriate place to post it again.

    I'm thinking I've found (well not me, others, but I found their info on it)the answer to the PUFA riddle. Many plant foods high in PUFA are also high in IP6, which chelates iron (and maybe other toxic heavy metals, too?) Animal foods high in PUFA are also low in Neu5GC, which promotes premature ageing. Beef and dairy are very high in Neu5GC. Plant antioxidants solve the rest of the PUFA problem for us, I'm thinking vit E of course, which is high in all (unrefined) high-PUFA plant foods, and supplementary cayenne and turmeric among others. IP6 is a powerful antioxidant in itself.

    So… Peat is wrong in condemning food for its PUFA content. He is taking one variable and giving it too much importance while ignoring others. So you got Peat with his trembling voice talking about how PUFAs destroying the respiratory metabolism, and you have the fact that the people with the best longevity eat a mostly plant-based rather lowish fat and pretty low protein diet.

    Reply
  58. @wolfstriked

    "Here are some typical Japanese meal pics.I find it funny that in the forum I found the links to these pics a person said "they eat rice and meat so the main reason they are healthy is that they just do small portions" LMAO!"

    Well, it's a fact that portion sizes are generally smaller in Japan. I've seen that first hand, and I've also seen the surprise of Japanese when they saw the portions served here. Especially sweets in Japan come in small sizes with lots of packaging, whereas here (Germany) they are sold like bread basically.

    Reply
  59. Newbie said…

    http://www.worldpuja.org/archives/2009-10-10_b/

    Still looks good for being 80 something though.

    Wow, finally a clearer view!! Peat's B day is in October 1936, so that would make him 74. And of course, who knows when that picture was taken.

    Reply
  60. Hans,
    Do you have any evidence that NEU5GC from food sources produces premature aging? Or for your claim that the people with the best longevity eat a mostly plant based diet with low fat and low protein? Kitava for example, don't live very long, while the Massai often reach a very old age.

    Reply
  61. Now that Ray May is over should we worry if Sisson rhymes with June?

    Hey grass fed momma,
    How old do I have to be to get a t-shirt? ;-)

    Reply
  62. Hans,

    There are too many variables to say that low fat, low protein is optimal. US people age fast yet have high life expectancies. What about the fact that higher sat fat fat intake within Japanese is associated with lower mortality?

    Reply
  63. Hans was just re-emphasizing a point of "diversifying your toxins."

    His facts may be wrong, but the main point of what he was trying to convey was to "diversify your toxins."

    Such point was repeatedly emphasized by a variety of other people, including Rob A., justme, Ela, and AS.

    But I don't believe that Jannis was nit-picking Hans, either. Jannis was just disagreeing with some minor points.

    On the contrary, the claim that "Kitivans don't live very long" is controversial. The Kitivans have no modern technology, so a short average life expectancy is expected. Even though their life expectancy at birth is estimated at 45 years (includes infant mortality), their life expectancy at age 50 is an additional 25 years. There are Kitivans who live towards 100 years old.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9322559?ordinalpos=6&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

    Also, I have no evidence that IP6 functions like an antioxidant, in vivo.

    Reply
  64. If you really want IP6 and vitamin E as antioxidants, without the burden of PUFAs, then you could just take an IP6 supplement and a vitamin E supplement. But why didn't Hans consider such a possibility? Because that wasn't Hans' main point. Hans' main point was that there are "possible unknown nutrients" in high-PUFA foods, so it's ideal to get a variety of toxins.

    Reply
  65. Hans,
    The Japanese live something like three or four years longer than the Americans, who eat probably the unhealthiest diet in the world. Wow!
    This difference could well be explained by the fact that the average Jim and Joe in Japan has a higher life standard than people in America.
    The people on Okinawa have a high life expectancy, but from what I know they eat a calorie restricted diet their whole life. So, they are like the calorie restricted mice with a higher metabolic rate per kg body mass.

    I don't think that the ratio of macro nutrients is that important. I think that a lot of long-lifed people eat a diet low in fat and protein. That means they eat very little thyroid supressing things like tryptophan, cystein, methionine, iron, PUFA, or other toxins and metals.
    That doesn't mean that you can't achieve the same thing with a diet that is higher in protein or fat, as long as you eat the right kinds of fat and protein. A lot of long-lived tribes in the mountains are goat or dairy farmers and live mainly from high fat cheese and milk. So, they have a good source for well-balanced protein and saturated fat plus a lot of calcium and other nutrients.

    Reply
  66. Lisa
    Age is not a requirement , all you need is True Grit and the state of mind of the best granny.
    ie: I don't listen any newfangled bullcrap.
    and also,
    Get Off My Lawn!

    :-)
    PS See this ball? It's MINE. I'm gonna teach you kids a lesson!

    Reply
  67. @ Jannis

    "The Japanese live something like three or four years longer than the Americans, who eat probably the unhealthiest diet in the world. Wow!"

    OK, then come up with a better example? Please? I've been both to the US and to Japan, and oh boy would I prefer to grow up in a family that eats a rather traditional Japanese diet. In the more rural places I didn't really see any overweight people. Heck, in a rather big city by our standards (Kouchi in Shikoku) but a rural place by Japanese standards I saw like one fat guy.

    "The people on Okinawa have a high life expectancy, but from what I know they eat a calorie restricted diet their whole life. So, they are like the calorie restricted mice with a higher metabolic rate per kg body mass."

    Because they don't overeat does not invalidate the benefits of their diet at all. I think you're just looking for some kind of reason to easily dismiss them as irrelevant.

    "I don't think that the ratio of macro nutrients is that important. I think that a lot of long-lifed people eat a diet low in fat and protein. That means they eat very little thyroid supressing things like tryptophan, cystein, methionine, iron, PUFA, or other toxins and metals."

    Well, they also don't eat a lot of the supposedly good stuff either. But they eat things like cabbage and greens that supposedly suppress the thyroid. Won't calorie restriction and eating little sugar also keep metabolism low? How come those people don't suffer from low metabolism?

    "That doesn't mean that you can't achieve the same thing with a diet that is higher in protein or fat, as long as you eat the right kinds of fat and protein."

    Maybe…

    "A lot of long-lived tribes in the mountains are goat or dairy farmers and live mainly from high fat cheese and milk. So, they have a good source for well-balanced protein and saturated fat plus a lot of calcium and other nutrients."

    Concrete examples? What's the use of all the calcium – I read calcium competes with magnesium, so maybe it's better to keep it low, methinks. We got high dairy consumption here and we've also got osteoporosis. Anyway, I do very poorly on dairy, so it's not an option for me. And I'm not alone in this.

    Reply
  68. @ John

    I don't know about that, but my overall impression is that these characteristics are rather common among the long-lived. Also among the centenarians, it's not like eating lots of dairy / sat fat / sugar is a common denominator. Or maybe it is and I just don't know. My main point is that some people seem to think that PUFAs seem to be THE factor in health and longevity (based on some studies which most people seem to interpret in a totally different way) which might even be true if you eat a lot of refined PUFA, but apart from that, I just don't see that being the case.

    Reply
  69. john

    "The study with the one guy is really interesting. How low does PUFA content get though? Would his diet actually achieve lower levels than if he ate full fat cottage cheese and milk [instead the skimmed versions]? I think the Kitavans have more PUFA in tissues than would be expected from the tiny amount in their diets."

    Yeah no doubt, skim milk is less than 0.1% calories as PUFAs whereas whole milk is closer to 3%, so a diet based on whole milk would be pretty far from EFA-deficient, which I'm guessing is required to get the kind of accelerated depletion of PUFAs they saw in that study.

    What kind of PUFAs do the Kitavans have though? If they have more PUFAs in their tissue than what is in their diet, maybe that reflects endogenous production of omega-9 PUFAs like Mead acid.

    Reply
  70. Hans,

    I think it's just that life expectancy follows money moreso than diet. Who are you talking about when you say high plant, low protein, low fat? Inuit, Maasai, Japanese, American, etc all seem to have similar max lifespans.

    My guess is that things like iron, PUFA, and micronutrients play a more important role than macronutrient ratios.

    Collden,

    I meant tissue content, not diet content. I'm skeptical that a .5% PUFA diet achieves significantly lower tissue levels than a 5% diet because we store more with lower intake. For example, the Kitavans have unexpectedly high linoleic acid.

    Reply
  71. Collden,

    Actually, I think something is wrong with what I said above: some people do have symptoms of EFA deficiency, right? But, it seems to happen in people with unhealthy habits, which is surprising because they probably have high LA intakes?…I don't know…I wish there was more info on that guy and for longer.

    Reply
  72. slightly disappointed in RAY MAY, thought Matt would go into the studies that underlie Peat's suggestions as Peter and Stephan tried slightly doing and seeing if the data support the hypothesis.

    However, good stuff in citing some of his works for the world to see

    Reply
  73. @hans,so you agree that its portion size that is the reason for the longevity?I am not saying that portion size has nothing to do with it,I just posted that since most people feel meat AND carbs are the death of us.Calorie restriction may well be the cure for all that ails us BUT I can say that when I am calorie deprived I start to fall apart.

    As for my story,it got even better today.I woke up and did my usual mirror look to see any weightloss.I looked skinnier this morning and when I put my pants on they were alot looser around the waist.I have not seen or felt my waist size move in such a long time!

    Funny thing though….got to work feeling on a cloud and ate my bagel with eggs.Felt amazing and then all of a sudden I fell apart.By 11am my mind was back on food and I was dragging my body around as if it just shut down.I ate double the sushi I normally eat for lunch and felt better an hour later.

    This reminded me of a bodybuilding guru who explained why he would junk feed his client Mcdonalds every few days.I am talking a full blown super sized meal.Why you ask?Well he states that he watches his weight fluctuate so well that any time the BB'ers weight does a sudden 3 to 4 pounds drop in one day as compared to the usual 1 pound….its due to sudden change in metabolism and if the client does not eat this huge meal to gain back lost pounds they lose muscle and get weaker.So today I went to theater and also had a small popcorn and for dinner just now I ate twice the usual amount.Intuitive eating and hopefully tommorow I am back to feeling less like I am starving my self to death.

    Reply
  74. Anonymous,
    I can't find anything on Geoffrey Morell being dead but it appears he may be braindead.

    http://insearchofsimplicity.com/2011/02/25/geoffrey-morell-staying-young-on-a-nutrient-dense-diet/

    some quotes:
    "Geoffrey’s own methods of healing began after many years of meditation. He was then visited in the inner realms by Jesus, Sai Baba and a blonde woman who collectively instructed him."

    Wow! Pass the Kool-Aid, please.

    "Approximately one in 20 people that Geoffrey sees have entities attached to them. They come from three sources: 1. Not letting go of loved ones when they die. 2. Using a Ouija board. 3. Some form of voodoo."

    He's right about the Ouija board and the voodoo, but c'mon, what could not letting go have to do with it? Now that's just crazy… ;)

    Reply
  75. An interesting development at the end of Josh Rubin's latest interview with Ray Peat (http://www.blogtalkradio.com/eastwesthealing)– it turns out Peat does not particularly see a danger with trans fats, and actually thinks they might be beneficial, being precursors to molecules like CLA which counteract the PUFAs. He at least says this is the benefit of the 1-2% trans fats in dairy. He ascribes the allegedly bad effects of trans fats as just another way science shifts the blame from the PUFAs that they are invariably mixed with.

    Reply
  76. john

    Do you know of any studies that actually manage to induce clinical symptoms of EFA deficiency in humans (ie dermatitis etc)? I've only seen one, conducted in infants who received a completely fat-free diet, and very few studies seem to actually investigate whether the symptoms could rather be due to depletion of some nutrient due to the increased metabolism.

    I went through some of the literature on EFA-deficient mice, and its really true as Peat says that EFA-deficiency seems to be highly protective against many different toxins and auto-immune diseases. There's half a dozen papers on how EFA-deficienct mice are immune against streptozotocin and cyclosporin-induced diabetes, EFA-deficiency prevents autoimmune diabetes, toxin-induced renal failure and autoimmune kidney disease, makes mice strongly resistant to endotoxic shock, infectious disease and almost completely eliminates the edema associated with arthritis.

    Seeing as how the main purported role of PUFAs is to modulate the immune system, if they were truly essential, it just seems very odd to me that EFA-deficient animals actually show many signs of having superior immune function.

    Some refs:

    Diabetes
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3045812
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7667243
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9389417
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7579534
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2307932

    Arthritis
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2307932

    Endotoxic shock
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/394879

    Kidney disease
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2212002
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2809195

    Trypanosoma infection
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1342611

    Antimicrobial activity
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2649598
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9119445

    Reply
  77. @ John

    "I think it's just that life expectancy follows money moreso than diet."

    What I mean is getting old while staying functional and looking good. I've been to Germany, America, and Japan. Japanese win by far, given they eat traditionally.

    "Who are you talking about when you say high plant, low protein, low fat? Inuit, Maasai, Japanese, American, etc all seem to have similar max lifespans."

    I don't know about Inuit or Maasai centenarians. What I've gathered from reading etc. on Inuit is that they are rather short-lived and supposedly age prematurely. I don't know about the Masai. But I think their diet can't be transferred to a "civilized" context. Who knows what protective faculties the herbs they eat have. They don't eat that much meat and drink mostly fermented milk (right?) Maybe the fermentation process lowers the Neu5GC. Fermented dairy products are often associated with longevity. Also their high milk intake may chelate iron. Americans seem to age anything but gracefully. Maybe they did better in the past, I don't know. Monastyrsky posted a list of the age of US presidents, and it seems like the past ones did better than the modern ones.

    "My guess is that things like iron, PUFA, and micronutrients play a more important role than macronutrient ratios."

    Iron and PUFA intake are interrelated with macronutrients of course. If you want a diet low in iron (and Neu5GC), there goes your beef, pork etc.(dairy only for Neu5GC), they all have to be limited. Not so much left in terms of animal fats unless you want to go high in fish and poultry, and most plant fats except for the tropical oils contain a lot of PUFA, so low-fat seems better (maybe.)

    High protein and fat intake seem rather recent for most populations. I mean, in the past we had festivals when animals were butchered. That means it didn't happen every day. This big change correlates with diseases of civilization. Of course this shows no causation, but there are hints (Neu5GC, iron, others?)

    Research, studies, they always change. They always find something new. You guys discuss studies and you can't agree what the same study means. So personally I don't want to depend on that. Tomorrow someone finds a far bigger evil than PUFA. I've tried the low-PUFA stuff. Didn't reduce inflammation, sorry. Going low in animal products (while actually going up somewhat in natural unrefined sources of PUFA) did so very conspicuously. Doesn't mean it's animal products per se. But makes me think. The picture is a big one. Now we go low in PUFA and see what happens. I'm not reading about any magical transformations. One guy posted about a study of one man who went super low in fat and reported great benefits, which supposedly proves it's all about reducing PUFA (when he reduced total fat intake actually.) Well, there are a lot of testimonials for ANY given diet. One guy. What does that say…

    Btw, great evils like hazelnuts and almonds actually contain mostly MUFAs. Just found that on nutritiondata…

    Reply
  78. That thing about Peat being ok-ish with trans fats is pretty mind-blowing. I'd want to know if he means synthetic trans fats as well as the naturally occurring ones. The idea that they got a bad rap for being conflated with PUFAs doesn't ring true for me, though, because I thought that in all those studies, the sat fats and trans fats were conflated which was why everyone got scared of sat fats for a while.

    The lowered metabolism/hibernating connection is definitely a huge 'aha' for me too. I guess the fact that polar bears, who live mostly on seals (who eat fish and whose oil is very PUFA) _don't_ hibernate (except when pregnant) is balanced by the observation that black and brown birds gorge on salmon before they hibernate…

    Reply
  79. I listened to Mr Shaky Pants Peat this am. Have to say, he was somewhat clearer but I still find the podcast difficult to listen to.
    I guess drinking a gallon of milk is his idea of a good time. Not mine though.
    Interesting as always. Confusing as all get out.
    deb xo

    Reply
  80. Collden,

    I don't. Thanks for all those studies–are you trying to make a point though? If it's that low PUFA is good, I agree. I still wonder though if PUFA in tissues becomes lower on a "skim milk diet" than on a "whole milk diet." I have trouble coming to grips that it may possibly be that skimming the fat is healthful.

    Hans,

    Stephan had a post on the Inuit that showed some are quite old, but I believe you about the Japanese.

    They are interrelated, but you can easily break the mold. Many "paleo" dieters seem to eat only steak and vegetables, but a diet high in fatty dairy can be very low iron while many starches have significant iron.
    High meat intake seems to be rare (but Inuit, Chukchi, and Native Americans did it?), but there are cultures that still rely on high protein and fat from dairy.

    Those two are low in PUFA for nuts/seeds, but they're still too high to feel comfortable with eating large amounts.

    Reply
  81. Something that bothers me about Peat's work is his dislike of cysteine, while the literature shows that N-acetyl cysteine is a really kick-ass supplement.

    Specifically, NAC:

    is a precursor to the body's main antioxidant, glutathione, and is shown to raise glutathione levels

    prevents flu

    prevents abnormal blood clots

    protects the liver from alcohol, acetaminophen, and other toxins

    protects the microscopic hairs of the ear from damage from loud noise

    helps eliminate heavy metals

    lowers homocysteine levels

    helps remove tar from smokers' lungs and improve lung function

    may reduce the risk of lung cancer in smokers by as much as 50%

    Color me skeptical about the evils of cysteine. I can understand seeking a more traditional balance of amino acids, but I don't understand demonizing specific amino acids.

    Reply
  82. @ John

    "They are interrelated, but you can easily break the mold."

    I'm not so optimistic. Like I've said, I've seen new factors pop up before and I think I'll see new ones pop up in the future as well.

    "Many "paleo" dieters seem to eat only steak and vegetables, but a diet high in fatty dairy can be very low iron"

    True, dairy may actually counteract iron. But then there is Neu5GC, however much of a role that really does play. Seems to play a big role in my personal health though. Maybe.

    " while many starches have significant iron."

    Yes, but Japanese white rice and their tubers are not. Other whole grains and potatoes are, but they can be eaten with turmeric, chili etc. to block iron absorption. Of course, the same is true about meat as well. So iron isn't the only player.

    "High meat intake seems to be rare (but Inuit, Chukchi, and Native Americans did it?),"

    Price has some Native Americans like that, but most were not, from what I've heard (Chief, for example, is all about starch.)

    "but there are cultures that still rely on high protein and fat from dairy."

    Sure, but are they renowned for their longevity?

    "Those two are low in PUFA for nuts/seeds, but they're still too high to feel comfortable with eating large amounts."

    They also have a lot of vitamin E. Well, I wouldn't eat them in large amounts anyway, they seem too concentrated as food sources for eating them like that (just my feeling.)

    Reply
  83. Hans,
    I think dairy doesn't contain a significant amount of Neu5GC. All the articles mention that "red meat and dairy contain a lot of Neu5GC. But the only article that mentioned some numbers said that red meat contains about 10000 (I forgot the unit) and milk about 20-50. Chicken was something like 2000.

    Anyways, I don't think that this new Neu5GC cult is really important.
    But, I think it is generally a good idea to avoid red meat (and other meat) as much as possible. Dairy protein is much better. And you actually do a little bit for the environment, of you don't eat so much meat.

    Reply
  84. @ Jannis

    Cult? Come on. The numbers I've read were:

    number if micrograms per recommended daily serving:

    Beef: 11,610
    Goat cheese: 5,544
    Pork: 5,130
    Lamb: 4,860
    Salmon: 810
    Cow milk: 711
    Cow cheese: 600
    Duck, turkey, chicken, tuna, cod: 45-27

    Dairy is quite significant here. Like I said, I can't do dairy. I do mostly legumes, some eggs, seafood / fish / chicken ocassionally, lamb / beef / pork rarely.

    Reply
  85. In the articles of the research by Varki, they say that eating foods with Neu5Gc can be problematic if there is a strong antibody response to Neu5Gc. This can further trigger inflammation, which can cause harm to the person where this occurs. They show that this inflammation was suppressed by the use of a COX-2 inhibitor. So it seems that Neu5Gc may only be of a problem for someone that eats too much omega 6, since then too much inflammatory molecules are at potential to be disposed and cause chronic inflammation.

    Ray Peat makes a comment about Neu5Gc in the recent interview with the Rubins. From 91.20 he says that the recent statement that Neu5Gc in animal products is allergenic and will cause cancer is probably sort of a sales pitch for a genetic engineering company.

    Reply
  86. Hans,
    I think it definitely has something cult-like. If you read the studies and articles, it seems that suddenly every single disease is caused by Neu5GC. It's always the same, they always find a new villain. Saturated fat, cholesterol, sugar, now it's dairy and Neu5GC.
    If dairy really contains so much of that stuff, and if it really caused cancer, how come milk and dairy aren't associated with cancer?

    Reply
  87. Jannis,

    I didn't see that, really. Maybe I haven't read enough about it. I'm seeing lots of people blaming every single disease on PUFA. I mean even smoking and drinking is no problem without PUFA now. How come you didn't include that in your villain list? Because it's the real villain?

    Neu5GC is high in dairy but higher in beef. Also high in pork. Who doesn't eat those? So any association with cancer would be super-hard to establish. If it really causes inflammation, then it is a problem and would be associated with all kinds of disease of civilization, of course. Just as you guys see PUFA associated with each and every kind of malady.

    Reply
  88. With everyone on the new bland food to signal weightloss,and all the people who say its got nuthin to do with calories…people its all about calorie restriction WTF!!! lol

    High one day but at or a small amount above maintenance and then drop down a good amount below maintenanace on low day.I am gonna do a full week of Kwasnieski next with fat as the calorie I drop and raise.Then the following week i am gonna try Mcdoanlds all week with just variations on the total calorie level.

    I would think that in "paleo" times we would not have meat all the time.Meat days were high days with tubers and berries and shiznit we could gather being low days…..you can't get alot of calories from carb foods unless you farm them.;)

    Reply
  89. "it seems that suddenly every single disease is caused by Neu5GC. It's always the same, they always find a new villain. Saturated fat, cholesterol, sugar, now it's dairy and Neu5GC."

    But PUFAs are the exception right? They are the true culprit right? Mystery solved.

    Reply

  90. "I'm super sensitive to PUFAs (cause my temp to drop more than half a degree the next day)."

    "One thing that I would like addressed is Peat's obsession about avoiding PUFA in vegetables. Should people really be concerned when they eat above ground veggies?"

    "If you see any vegetables peering their heads out above the ground, immediately dive out of the way to avoid being poisoned by their fats!"

    "I am not vegetarian, and I avoid eating polyunsaturated fatty acids."

    "Polyunsaturated fatty acids are found in almost every food, but there are foods which have less PUFAs."

    "What I'm focusing is to eat the foods which contain the least PUFAs. But of course, it's impossible to avoid them 100%"

    "I'm left confused with the limited choices of starches in the diet if we take the whole PUFA thing too far."

    "Orange juice – or in fact juice of any kind – gives me a stomach ache – especially OJ (but oranges don't) and I just find juice too intensely sweet tasting. He says fruit is a good thing but then he seems to really only mean oj, grape juice, watermelon and grapes – which is pretty limiting. Plus too much dairy just seems to cause phlegm in my throat …. and I can't stand milk. I could easily eat a quart of yogurt – which is not Peat approved – but a cup of milk is just revolting to me. So, following Peat's specific dietary recommendations is just not something I can/want to do."

    If people would just stop eating food they would have good health and live forever. Don't you people get it?

    Please!

    Many adhere stubbornly to a simple-minded "if it contains PUFA it HAS to be bad" philosophy.

    "taking one variable and giving it too much importance while ignoring others."

    Reply
  91. Copper and zinc prevent iron from accumulating in cells. I'm going to assume iron in meat doesn't matter until better evidence shows otherwise. It's possible that multivitamins and breakfast cereal with their unbalanced iron are problematic. Iron causes oxidative stress and destroys vitamin E, But I can't just ignore that people already have low vitamin E to begin with, and tissues loaded with PUFA. How bad iron is for you depends on many factors.

    An example of someone eating a high iron diet with good longevity would be Buster martin.

    Reply
  92. GRASS FED MOMMA-

    Which pod cast? Do you have a link to it? I wanner listen too *stomps her feet in the ground*

    Reply
  93. It's on Holistic Health podcast with the Rubins. they call themselves east west healing too to add to the confusion.
    I will post a link here:
    http://www.blogtalkradio.com/eastwesthealing/2011/06/03/ray-peat-milk-calcium-and-hormones

    Apparently they are now East West Healing.
    BTW If anyone needs a good laugh I just watched Scott Pilgrim Vs The World last night. Hilarious, esp. loved the Vegan Police. "Vegans are just a bit better than everyone else". CLASSIC.
    Later
    Ramona Flowers

    Reply
  94. @Wolfstriked

    "@hans,so you agree that its portion size that is the reason for the longevity?I am not saying that portion size has nothing to do with it,I just posted that since most people feel meat AND carbs are the death of us.Calorie restriction may well be the cure for all that ails us BUT I can say that when I am calorie deprived I start to fall apart."

    I was just writing down my first hand experience. Sure it seems that eating less is better for staying lean and for longevity, too. But I'm the same as you. No idea how to actually get there. I got to watch outt that I eat enough. It's a fine balance.

    Reply
  95. Thanks momma! ;-)

    Reply
  96. Hi Hans,

    do you got an email address for me to talk about PUFAs and stuff?

    Would be nice!

    Grüße ;)

    Reply
  97. "Inducing an essential fatty acid deficiency in an adult human proved much more difficult than curing one. In 1938, the biochemist William Brown volunteered to go six months eating an extremely low-fat diet in Burr’s laboratory. Each day, he consumed three quarts of defatted milk, a quart of cottage cheese made from it, sucrose, potato starch, orange juice and some vitamin and mineral supplements. His blood lipids became more saturated and their concentrations of linoleic and arachidonic acids were cut in half. He experienced a marked absence of fatigue, his high blood pressure returned to normal, and the migraines he had suffered from since childhood completely disappeared.22 Rather than inducing a deficiency, the diet seemed to correct a long-standing excess, perhaps fueled by a history of vegetable oil consumption."

    http://www.westonaprice.org/know-your-fats/2021-precious-yet-perilous

    According to Chris Masterjohn's article, the story is different in children vs. adults.

    Also, Ray Peat said in his podcast with Josh and Jeanne that B6 supplementation reversed all signs of "essential fatty acid deficiency."

    http://www.blogtalkradio.com/eastwesthealing/2010/11/18/the-science-behind-the-dangers-of-polyunsaturated-fats-with-ray-peat-phd

    Interestingly, increased dietary protein also increases the need for vitamin B6, so perhaps it is not so much an "essential fatty acid deficiency" that folks experience, but a "dietary protein excess" leading to B6 deficiency.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8683352?dopt=Abstract

    Kinda goes along with Melissa McEwen's article, posted earlier:

    http://huntgatherlove.com/content/are-we-evolved-gorge-meat

    Reply
  98. I have been taking 2 tabs of the bovine thyroid for about five months now and feel great. It is very effective.

    Reply
  99. Hey Matt, thank you so much for sharing this man's knowledge and your wisdom with us, however I am confused about a couple things.

    Why do you, and Ray Peat advocate getting body temperature up when it is related to reduced logevity? T3 is also inversely correlated with longevity. How does this work?

    Reply
  100. Avishek-

    I'm not aware of any associations between T3 and high body temperature and inverse correlations with longevity. Many studies show the opposite, as Peat has refuted many times, and as I have addressed as well.

    Reply
  101. Sorry for my English, it is not my native language.
    I’m not trying to be on side of Dr Peat or opose to him. What I try to say is my truth experience.
    I switched to Low Carb after beeing vegetarian (which was really bad experience).
    Thanks to my new diet (LC) I improved my health and I have much better blood results:
    CRP=1
    Insulin=3
    Glucose~80 and very stable
    I lost weight and feel much better.
    Maybe we shouldn’t condemn LCD so quickly. If you are on LCD and ballance your protein with gelatine, minimazing intake of PUFA, taking coconut oil, taking a lot of calcium and not going on high protein so maybe it is not bad diet? One of the bigest experts on thyroid (Broda Barnes) was recommending this kind of diet.

    Reply
    • The low-carb diet is the ultimate short-term recovery diet for a vegetarian. That I won’t deny or dismiss. It’s my foray into low-carbism after extended vegetarianism (and Robb Wolf’s and many others) that allowed me to become so seduced by it.

      Reply

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