RBTI – Challen Waychoff Delivers

Share on Facebook0Tweet about this on Twitter0Share on Google+0

I went to see Challen Waychoff because I was told he could look at a basic set of numbers ascertained from a series of simple urine tests and tell what was wrong with a person, what they ate and even when they ate it, and precisely what course of action to take to fix their body chemistry. This seemed like incredibly powerful knowledge, and hinted at a more sophisticated understanding of nutrition than anyone else in the world possesses.

On the first day I watched a few clients come in. The first was an average construction worker kind of guy. He had a big gut and was just a regular Joe. He had a heart attack at which point he decided to pay Challen a visit. Within 48 hours his chest pain was gone. He had no problems whatsoever, including having energy, which he had suffered from to the point he could hardly get out of bed, until he deviated from the diet. When he did, his problems returned. Nervous about having another heart attack, he went back to Challen and once again, within a couple of days, chest pressure was gone and things back to normal. No trouble since, and he reports feeling great.

The second and third client came in after that. The 2nd was about to try yet another round of chemotherapy, but really felt like she didn’t have the strength left to survive another chemo serving. She tried the RBTI once again. And in 3 months all her tumors were completely gone without a trace.

The third client was a very attractive young girl who started out working with Challen and looking pale, sunken-cheeked, and bulimic according to Challen’s description – with acne. Radiant would be a huge understatement of her physical presence. She has gained 10 pounds since she started, and honestly had one of the best female figures I have ever seen. I don’t mean that in a creepy way. Just reporting here.

Her acne was still slightly visible, but she mentioned how much better it had gotten. She had just come back from vacation, so her “numbers” were all over the place. She had already begun drinking lots of distilled water in anticipation of what her numbers would be. She was right. Her urine brix (a reading of carbohydrate content) was roughly 400% higher than the ideal. Drinking distilled water in a systematic way lowers the urine brix. If you have low urine brix, drinking plain water is strictly forbidden.

And then of course, it was my turn. I went into the bathroom, whipped out the magic Johnson, and hit the little pee cup with a strong burst of embarrassingly-dark urine (I had not had much to drink that day – it was my first day and I had sort of forgotten about my physical needs).

Challen and his office diva laughed at how dark it was, and then Challen proceeded to run the tests on it. With a little dish he added a few drops of various solutions, had me spit in one part, mixed a drop of Matt whiz and stirred it around with something 120 times, put 15 drops into a big test tube full of distilled water, held my urine up and eclipsed the light with it (and had the skin color of an Oompa Loompa briefly), put some kid whiz on the refractomer and had me look at the reading, and 5 minutes later I had my “numbers.”

Urine brix = 4.2
Urine pH = 7.4
Saliva pH = 7.6
Salts = 28c
Albumin = 4m
Nitrate Urea = 8
Ammonia Urea = 12

And there ya have it.

He looks at my numbers for 15 seconds or so before he starts to talk. I’m waiting for a John Edward psychic moment to spill out of him. He says, “Do you take any medications?”

I say, “fool you crazy!!!”

He says, “Well, how about some herbs or supplements?”

“You betta ax somebody sucka!”

I’m thinking, “Wow, this is a disappointment.” But he insists there’s gotta be something causing the pattern he is seeing. As if he barely believes it, he says, “Well, do you eat a lot of bananas?”

I laughed and said “oh snap!”

“Well how many do you eat?!!” he asked as if I must be eating an amount of bananas that he’s never seen someone eat. And in fact, I had been. In June I ate 2 entire cases of bananas (roughly 170 bananas in 30 days). The day before I had eaten 4 in one sitting. My nickname to the 5-year old daughter of my Florida gal is “banana” because of all the bananas I eat.

Well played sir. I’m very attentive now. I take out my corn rows and remove the red bandana from my head and roll down the one pant leg I had up to my knee so I could hear dis fool betta. (Sorry, this gangsta spoof is a little out of sync with Wheeling. I should have said I got off my sister – who had a picture of Sarah Palin taped to her face as an aphrodisiac, put down my Moon Pie, and turned down the romantic sounds of the Georgia Satellites for a minute to listen more carefully…)

He then proceeded to tell me what was wrong with me starting at my feet (which have been hurting like hell this year – especially walking barefoot on hard surfaces), and working his way up. He mentioned feet, then lower back (one of my most chronic conditions – a major problem for me since the age of 16 when I began seeking treatment for it), and pain in the center of the chest (my most recent health problem that began after a year or so of being on a low-carbohydrate diet). He didn’t mention pet allergies, but I was still pretty damn impressed.

Challen, and the RBTI is not part of the psychic network. It’s just simple analysis. Anyone can do it. Challen is the first to systematize basic patterns in the numbers and their relationship with one another. For example, if your urine pH is low – like 5.5, and your Nitrate urea is higher than your ammonia urea (forgive me if I’m saying anything incorrectly, it’s only my 2nd day for Pete’s sake), then you have consumed pork in some form. This is one of the recognized patterns of which Challen has formulated dozens, hundreds maybe I don’t know, and has them all in a 3-ring binder.

It’s just very diligent investigative work that he has put together. No one on earth has done this. Other supposed practitioners of the RBTI deny that it’s even possible. Oh it’s possible alright, and freakishly accurate. So accurate, in fact, that I think it’s kind of scaring people away. I can sort of relate. I mean, this knowledge is making me have a complete identity crisis. It’s hard to explain why exactly. I feel like the hitchhiker in There’s Something About Mary when Ben Stiller suggests that 7-Minute Abs sounds like a good business idea, but warns about the potential of someone releasing 6-Minute Abs as a competing product…

For example, if you are taking dolomite as a supplement and the total of your urea numbers is 13 or less, your neck stiffens up. Then you stop taking the dolomite and it clears up right away. Likewise, if he sees your ureas getting closer to the low levels and you are taking dolomite, he can say, “You might get a stiff neck sometime this week. If you do, stop taking the dolomite.” He said this to a 180 follower that switched to the RBTI “dark side” and it happened like clock work. Earlier today someone (another 180 follower that has been working with Challen for 2 months) self-reported a total of 10 and was taking dolomite and didn’t have a stiff neck. Challen then knew that she had mis-reported her number, which she had. The total was 14, not 10.

A lady today came in (wearing a Beavis and Butthead t-shirt – I’m being totally serious) and Challen looked at her numbers for no more than 10 seconds before he said, “You eat some chocolate?”

“Yes, last night.”

“And some nuts 6 days ago?”

“Yes, cashews.”

That’s how crazy this stuff is. And as you are reading this you are thinking the same way I thought when I first heard about it – that it is sounding like some super-creepy guru bullshit. That’s why I had to come here. I had to see it for myself, and I didn’t want to be one of those db’s who negates something just to protect his own ego, which just took a cold shower by the way, and will be quite raisin-like if my health problems substantially improve in the days, weeks, and months ahead (and more 180 followers continue to get much better results with the Challen-ator than I am capable of delivering to them).

We’ll see how things go as the bigger question is answered – “Does it work?”




  1. Yum, what's that tasty stuff in the plastic cup?

    Ha! First comment!

  2. Follows is actual transcript from when Matt first arrived in Wheeling:

    Challan: I am wondering, why are you here?
    Matt: I am looking for someone.
    Challan: Looking? Found someone, you have, I would say, hmmm?
    Matt: Right.
    Challan: Help you I can. Yes, mmmm.

  3. I think when Challen tells people they can't eat pork and chocolate and that they ate nuts 6 days ago they respond like Luke Skywalker did to his hand being hacked off with a light saber, and later told that his greatest enemy was in fact his father.

    "Nooooooooooo!!!! That's not true. That's impossible-uh!"

  4. AaronF-

    Special lemonade. 29 ounces distilled water, 3 ounces fresh lemon juice, 1.5 tablespoons maple syrup.

  5. I think that he is psychic, in the sense that his intuitive and his practical have collided and he is advancing something that will probably be common 10 years from now. Psychic information that is accurate is usually physically based and it's application is actually practical, rather than "woo-woo" past life, outer rings. It's just that we're cultured wrong. Not big news. Just wanted to say it.

  6. Then everyone who follows his program is psychic. Anyone who does it can start seeing the same patterns. It's not complicated. It's right there, in plain view, in "the numbers." You just have to learn all the patterns.

  7. Ridiculous. It's like cold reading for food. Only the most disordered eater will know what they ate 6 days ago. You eat some chocolate? Open ended question, and it's not like chocolate isn't the most universally adored snack in the world.

  8. SNAP

  9. Which of his books are best to start with / read? Getting "The Rules" for $145 seems a bit steep for the merely curious.

  10. You're starting to believe in him the way I believe in Jimmy. It ain't healthy brother. Chill out and take a step back. Even if he is that good, like Jimmy is, it's not worth it. No matter how good my spikes get (or how healthy you think you can be) there's always that far reaching goal of perfection you'll never attain. You'll live in a prison for the rest of your life. 

    For me: "Ok, if I can JUST get my vertical jump up to 63 inches like Jimmy's I can MAYBE block one of his spikes." So I train for 6 hours a day for the last 2 months. 

    You: "If I can JUST get the square root of my Urine brix up to the co-efficient of my Albumin plus Saliva pH to the fourth power times Urine pH divided by my combined Urea values, I can MAYBE just MAYBE get an erection again. Thanks Doc."

    Stop it now. Go back to FL, eat your bananas and play daddy. That was a happy time for you. 

  11. Has he said anything about cod liver oil? Also curious if he thinks following the diet can influence mood and help with de-stressing.

  12. What about dietary freedom? I get that you'd have to change practically everything to feel better, but I don't want to have to analyze my pee for the rest of my life to know if I can be happy.

    Once you have higher energy levels, is it possible to eat a normal, healthy diet (that includes "no" foods) and possibly just do a reset every year or so to get all the numbers back in range?

  13. I was also wondering if people who are in healthy ranges have their temps go up? Does he see a correlation?

    (That'd at least help your ego a bit.)

  14. Totally go for it Matt!! I think experimenting with RBTI will be a great add in your nutritional quest. I am with Realms in his theory about lacking minerals is the main cause in disease, he also encourages to have variety in the diet..today im having peas for the first time in almost 3 years..Im quite concern about mineral deficiency coming from a hflc paleo, haven´t had any legumes, fruit & nuts for wait too long.I just reach the point of saying to myself "the level of stupidity is too much".
    THanks Matt,please keep up posted on your rbti experience.

  15. I too have noticed a similar radiance emerging much like the pale vixen you spoke of. My hair, nails, and skin sort of "glow". I'm gaining muscle. My acne is almost 100% gone. The dark circles under my eyes are lightening up.

    This RBTI stuff is legit.

  16. I'm a big fan of super creepy guru bullsh*t because it always propels me to some new level of understanding even if I chuck the guru aside (I'll never toss you aside, Matt).

    Are you not supposed to be eating so many bananas?
    What were his recommendations?
    What were your health complaints besides foot pain?

    So distilled water?

  17. Matt,
    That all sounds fine and dandy and pretty impressive in about the same way that I'm impressed when I watch Chris Angel's mindfreak show.

    However, all I really want to know right now (and please be completely honest) is how does this Challen guy look? Is he fat? skinny? muscular? How's his skin? His hair? Under eye circles? Does he wear glasses? etc… etc…

    It sounds like the guy should basically radiate health and glow like a motherfu**er having found the perfect numbers for the human body.

  18. I agree, post a pic of The Wizard of Piss please!!!
    And yeah, like Lisa said, what does it all mean grasshopper??
    I have to give props to my bro Johnny L too, Florida was a happy place for you. I know this is a temp gig but don't fall down the rbti hole.
    da hag

  19. So what did he say, how long have you got lol.
    Your numbers are way out so this will be a very interesting experiment. Tell us please, the suspense is too stressful and is ruining my cortisol levels;-)

  20. Matt, Please keep the reports coming. I too am on the RBTI trail and wondering where it might lead. Please ask him about Distilled water versus R.O. Unless you get a really good distiller with additional filters on it, it often doesn't eliminate sulfuric and nitric acids or chlorine but R.O. does.

  21. How many people have access to distilled water, etc. these days? RBTI probably did work well and was easy to follow back in the 30's-70's when Reams was practicing, before our water and food supply got so fu*ked up. Seems like now it would be a lot harder trying to find quality food and water. Not to mention the stressing and obsessing over it.

    To those who are asking for pic/description of the whizard as proof that he's the real deal > Matt already commented about Challen's (unimpressive) appearance and that the whizard admittedly hasn't always followed his own rules. Challen has done RBTI on and off over the years.

    So my question is, why? Why has Challen not stuck to it RELIGIOUSLY? My guess is because it's too hard to stick to. Because it's too difficult to do so in these modern times with our un-natural and un-wholy food and water supply. I mean it's a damn shame that we have to distill our water. Water!!

    But I too am very curious to see pictures though, especially of his oldest son. And I bet it's not so easy for the oldest son to stick to it these days either. If he does, I'd love to know how he does it. And what he eats and from where he gets his food. The supermarket? Or homegrown?

    And yeah, Matt, what did he say about the bananas? And what did he say you 'should' be eating? And why?

  22. Thanks to you Matt, when you google image search for Challen Waychoff, you get a picture of Sarah Palin in a bikini and a big jar of piss. Good job. It's a worthwhile experiment just for that!

    You also get this picture, who I imagine was one of his ancestors.

    I plan on submitting this dude to My Daguerreotype Boyfriend as soon as I'm done with this post. He's pretty cute in a Howard Jones sort of way.

    But there are no picture os Chellan online. What is online of his diet are some weird recipes involving braising a pot roast in manischevitz, lowry's seasoning salt and adolf's meat tenderizer. Sounds like the anti-Stone if you ask me.

    He is so pork phobic that you aren't even supposed to be able to reuse your roaster if it's been used to cook pork.

    I'm with the Johnny L and de Hag on this one, I'm afraid.

  23. Also, has Pippa ever listened to The Bugle podcast. Jon Oliver has a habit of saying "Oh Pippa" in an aroused way, in reference to Pippa Middleton. I can't see the name without thinking of that…

  24. don't you people know that those with the seemingly worst health are those working in the supposed health business?? i.e. gym teachers, nurses, pediatricians, etc…….good grief.

  25. he should analyze your poopy too!!


  26. No shrimp and no swine eh? Sounds like judeo-christian reasoning rather than bio-chemical reasoning to me..

  27. Matt, I am thrilled you are writing daily about this adventure. I swear, the more I hear the more I am thinking of jumping ship and sailing with Challen.

  28. Been a while since I've commented and I'm glad to see that minerals are getting the priority attention they deserve.

    The molasses phase was a step in the right direction in this respect and I am genuinely curious to read how this RBTI venture pans out-but yeah, I am kinda sceptical re: the extent of these claims.

    No pork? Hmm. Unclean swine and all that. I'm sure there's a bit in the bible about all beasts eventually being declared "clean" when they were previously declared "unclean".
    Anyway, I don't really care about that, it's just that I know Reams was rooted in the "good book".

    FWIW, I continue to thrive on a mineral dense diet incl: molasses.
    Upon ditching the coconut oil in favour of beef dripping, lard and lots of olive oil I can honestly say I'm a changed man.
    Mufa's kick maximum ass!!

  29. This is hugely fascinating–can't wait to hear more of how your self-experiment pans out.
    But I also second the question about correlation with body temps: that would be an interesting tie-in or deny-in.

    I'm also wondering about the sustainability of it all, and what it says about people who _don't_ go to him, who are 'healthy:' do they just somehow have the fix on their numbers 'naturally' (if their numbers got tested, would they show up good?)

    I think it's good to have some rules. In my own latest self-experimentation, though, I seem to have gone back to being fat-phobic, have pretty much put any 'palatable foods' except fruit on the 'no' list (e.g. boiled potatoes ok, roasted potatoes bad) and maybe that's too much in the rule book (I notice some obsessive/eating disorder style behaviors coming back). Any thoughts appreciated.

  30. Hi Matt,
    some idle thoughts, with the usual rider, for what its worth:
    I am not surprised that some seriously ill folk get better on this system. Just as it is not surprising that some folk heal all manner of life threatening illnesses with other dietary protocols, or nature therapy, or music therapy, or meditation, or faith, or faith healing, or counselling, or conventional medical treatments.
    But then again, others do not.
    One of the big obstacles for those with cancer, is that they end up fighting two battles, the body dealing with the situation as part of its inbuilt healing and processes of homeostasis (which is not really a battle per-se, but rather it doing its thing) and the battle in the mind: "I am going to die", "I have to fight this thing", "This is wrong, unfair, etc", "Why me", etc etc.
    Yet, its not uncommon that should this mind fight diminish, that the individual does not die at all. On the contrary sometimes they live for a much longer period of time than otherwise predicted. Or go into complete remission. Or the cancer goes into a dormant stage. Sometimes they live to a ripe old age.
    Who can say with any great assurance why this occurs,(perhaps some ingrained belief pattern is radically altered, or negated) but nevertheless it does occur in some instances.
    Having said that, I can see that this RBTI – while no doubt offering hope to the seriously ill – could work the other way in some individuals with obsessive tendencies, and foster a whole set of new beliefs that complicate rather liberate attitudes to food and eating.
    Kind wishes, J

  31. Super interesting.Reminds of of saltwater fish tanks and how you need the perfect balance of minerals,salt,ph for the fish to prosper.I always thought that there must be a way to tune in the human body the way a saltwater fish tank enthusiast tunes the saltwater.They measure calcium,magnesium etc and when one is low the tank suffers.

  32. @J.R,I think that it would just tell the patient what not to eat and what to eat to maintain the balance where the body strives.Liberating attitudes about food is good and all but then we would all eat pizza and pork sandwiches….or at least I would…….plus tons and tons of Pepsi.

  33. "Liberating attitudes about food is good and all but then we would all eat pizza and pork sandwiches….or at least I would…….plus tons and tons of Pepsi."

    Hi Wolfstriked,
    but that wouldn't be liberated so much would it?
    Rather, one would be 'hooked' into the notion of eating pork sandwiches, pizza and Pepsi all the time.
    Kind wishes, J

  34. @Ela

    personally i feel this palatable foods thing is blown out of proportion a bit, but personally as long as it's food from nature don't worry about about how good it tastes. this includes the use of salt and spices. if you feel like old habits are coming back, it means you are doing it wrong. it's best to keep very general rules and allow your body to dictate the details.


  35. J.R.
    On the "FIGHT" and "HATE" cancer mentality I have to agree. One of the first things I learned when diagnosed and frankly, the most counter intuitive was to "make peace with the disease". I have yet to meet a person diagnosed with a fatal illness who is not admonished to fight back, kill it, rid themselves of it etc etc etc. Then the dr/pharma Knight comes to the rescue with drugs/radiation/cutting that might ding the cancer but ultimately destroy the body's immune system, so badly needed to actually restore normalcy to an unbalanced system. This is MY OPINION and I know there are some success stories using the above tools and some eating fucking wheat grass pellets and staring at the moon for hours on end. Who knows why one thing works for one case and the same thing is a complete failure in another case?
    By learning to quiet my frantic, freaked out mind and 'make nice' with my leukemia, get in touch with what real food actually is and slow down the crazy train of my life, I really do think that my prognosis is utter horse shit and that I will be haunting this planet for many many decades to come.
    Is it what I eat/ate? Is it mind control? Is it exercise, fresh air, clean water? All or none of the above? Who the hell knows. But I do know that when I dwell on it, when I feed the beast, fear grows the biggest tumor of all in my head that for sure, would kill me if I listened to it.
    So I eat what I want, when I want. I feel like food is actually the least of my worries so it has become a non issue. And unlike the "I will eat pork and guzzle coke" crowd I have less and less need for the emergency chocolate stash, my huge bag of gummy bears and any other garbage I have indulged in lately. This from a major major sugar addict who could eat a gallon of ice cream at a sitting in the past. Just don't care about it anymore.
    Sorry, got on the Stone box, I will get down now.

  36. Hi Deb
    yours is a great story.
    Working in this field I see others as well.
    Making peace is a key.
    The "way" varies for individual to individual.
    But it can, and does happen.
    Thank you for sharing.
    Kind wishes, J

  37. Um, OK, I was interested until I came upon this webpage and started reading about how cells are "really made" according to RBTI. I'm sorry, but unless everything I know about biology and chemistry is totally and completely wrong, then this is… well, crazy. Now, maybe it still works in practice, even tho the theory is loony. But still. Check out


    And especially this statement:


  38. b. The brain has received the message from a cell, let's say a cell in the heart, that it needs to be exchanged. It then sends a message to the liver telling the liver to begin the process of building what is called a skeleton amino acid to replace, in this case, the specific heart cell. It should be understood that this skeleton amino acid is only 60 to 80% finished after the liver has put it together and sent it on its way into the blood stream to go to the place in the heart where the cell that needs to be exchanged is.

    c. The liver builds this heart cell from the mineral it receives from both the fluids and foods that the person has eaten as well as the air that the person has taken in through the lungs and skin. As long as all the minerals have been provided to the liver to do its job and there are no other existing problems causing a hindrance in this process, the liver builds this precursor to a completed cell and sends it on its way to the heart with it being 60-80% complete.

    d. That skeleton amino acid or precursor cell is brought to the location where it needs to be by both energy sent from the brain as well as magnetic energy from the cells in the location where it will replace the old cell.

    e. As it arrives in that area, one or more of the 284 transformer glands will adjust the energy and minerals in that amino acid, adding anions and cations, etc. to it and taking away from it until it is nearly complete and at that point it will be pulled into where the old cell is and literally cause that old cell to be sloughed off into the blood stream to be sent out of the body.

  39. I guess all those cells I've seen dividing in petri dishes were abnormalities or something… They missed the memo:

    1. The cells that make up our bodies are made by a process of ionization. That is, they are built ion by ion. They do not divide. Unless this fact is understood, RBTI cannot be understood.

  40. J.R.:
    Thank you. My story hopefully will have a happy ending. The middle part is quite good actually. :-)

  41. Last thing… again, the ideas may work in practice.

    It sounds like you have to stay on the diet to be healthy? Challen went off, so he's not in good health. Is it too hard to stay on? The guy with chest pain went off, and it came back. Is this a long-term commitment?

    So are we fixing the root problem or just treating symptoms?

    Anyhow, I do love the idea that it's super cheap compared to a doctor and can be done at home.
    Big plus in my eyes.

  42. So this has me really interested and i started doing some research on RBTI and found this Reaves quote that sounds freakishly like a Matt quote: “We do not live from the food we eat but from the energy created from the food we eat.” and “Any day that a person burns up more energy than he assimilates from his food, that is the very first day of his illness.”

  43. Hawaii Girl-

    Yeah, the reading on it will just bum you out. It does me. Much of it is not based on reality, and it's hard to separate the wheat from the chaff. Outrageous claims are thrown around with no regard for how someone with a rational mind would respond to it. People talk themselves out of trying it before they actually try it.


    I don't think reading anything about it is productive. The proper sequence is to try it, then maybe read about it. If you read about it, you are likely to never try it. When Challen met Carey Reams his first reaction was "this guy is a quack! No one could do this. It's not possible." But he tried it anyway and decided to dedicate 6 months to it. The rest is history of course.

    The problem is that the writing makes bold claims that seem impossibly simple. In many cases they really are that simple.

    A healthy person like yourself with no pressing medical issues probably shouldn't get all RBTI but just continue eating the most nutritious foods you can. If anything, a refractometer is the greatest gift of the RBTI. Knowing how to control your sugar in the ideal range would probably be life-changing for most and incredibly simple.

    Those that call fake psychic-

    This has nothing to do with being psychic at all. Like I saw a woman's numbers today as they were being written down off of a phone consultation. The pH was totally strange and it caught my attention. I thought to myself, "ouch." Challen leans over so the person on speaker phone would not hear, pointed an arrow to the whack pH, and whispered "leukemia." But I knew immediately that there was something really f'ed up about the person.

    Same with another lady who had a salt level that was so high neither of us even believed that it was so high. We thought the test must have been done wrong or something. Her voice sounded so bad it was like listening to a Ray Peat interview haha.


    You can't judge a book by its cover. Challen almost died as an infant. His parents were both alcoholics.

    If you want to judge someone's diet, lifestyle, and mastery of manipulating human body chemistry for the better, then you should see how much healthier and attractive their KIDS are. I saw a picture of Challen and his oldest daughter tonight. Again, remarkable beauty. It was like looking at Regis next to Kelly Ripa, but his daughter is much prettier. Perfect grill.

    I asked him if his kids ever had braces. No, none of the four ever had braces. They all have perfectly straight teeth and wide jaws with outstanding facial symetry and dentition. None have ever had a cavity.

    Challen has great vitality and glow, tremendous energy, no health problems, and hasn't been to the doctor in decades. He's 62. 5 years ago his lower jaw expanded and his crowded lower teeth straightened out. He's alive, so he looks much better than most people diagnosed with leukemia 3 decades ago, as they are all mostly decomposed by now.

  44. Kelly Scott-

    He supplements vitamin A and D in certain situations. Not in others, like my situation. He understands vitamin D's interaction with minerals very well and knows when a person is "picking up" vitamin A or not based on their chemistry.


    Yeah, exactly. Imagine you knew what negative, systemic health effects a low pH had on the fish living in a tank (not a hard thing to figure out). And the negatives of a pH too high.

    Then, picture someone sending a water sample from the fish tank to a "fish health guru." He looks at the pH and says, "Your fish are losing bone mass, hyperactive, are having trouble breathing and coming up to the surface to sip air (I don't know, I'm just making this up), and will develop cancer and glaucoma in their eyes if the condition of your tank continues like this.

    The person who sent the water sample notes all of the behaviors and says, "This guy is just some creepy quack! How did he know all this!!!"

    We humans check the pH of our damn fish tanks to give our fish good health, but don't check our own or even consider believing that it could be related to very specific patterns of health problems.

    For those wondering if shellfish and pork reliably effect body chemistry in a negative way, don't worry. My mission is not to relentlessly support Challen and tell you guys how amazing he is.

    I will do many fun things during this stint. For example, I'll video myself eating 1 pork rib or sausage or something 6 days before a test and video his reaction when looking at my numbers.

    Another time I'll eat something else, or do something against the "rules" and see what it turns up.

    He'll either blow it, or see it with clarity and show us all the fish tank simplicity. I'll know too by then what effects such things have on my numbers.

    Remember – With a good mineral supply in food and water, you can eat whatever the hell you want, whenever you want, and have great health. You probably don't need any of these guidelines. What someone who just had a heart attack and is eating supermarket food needs to do is much more specific and rigorous. No, if you are a 300 pound man with heart disease, you can't just keep eating the same junk food and expect not to have another heart attack. You have to keep your chemistry in a tight range to avoid it.

    That's what is so cool about what Challen does. He takes people in incredibly ill shape and keeps them alive and actually feeling really good too – in a short time period.

  45. Kelly-

    Challen says ideal body temperature for a male is 98.4

    Ideal for a female is 98.8

    Sound about right?

    My recommendations from Challen-

    Bananas make your pH very alkaline. So I was instructed not to eat any bananas. Someday my pH will be too low, and I'll be instructed to eat bananas until my pH is too high again, then I won't eat them.

    I was also supplemented with calcium lactate to bring my pH down. Those with low pH are given an alkalizing calcium supplement called cal 2.

    It's a game of fine-tuning.

    My numbers are actually pretty close to the ideal "A range."

    Those with low sugar consume juice and some fruit in the afternoon. Those with high sugar, like me, consume water and less carbohydrate after 2pm. These things are not very complicated at all.

    There are 5 ranges, A, B, C, D, and E. My numbers put me in the B range which is just one step away from the A range, meaning that I'm not that unhealthy (which is obvious – it's not like I'm dying here… I can exercise all day, haven't been to a doctor in many years, have no active tooth decay, don't get colds or flu ever, sleep well, strong mood stability, etc.).

    Kelly Scott again…

    Yeah, mood is highly influenced by food, mineral status, body chemistry, etc. Challen would say 100%, and that emotional issues are one of the first signs of declining mineral status.

  46. So, making sure I'm clear – eventually you should come to perfect health and be able to eat what you want? With the occasional re-tweaking? Kinda GAPS like? (Cause I just found a source of pastured, good kine pig on-island and I'm pretty psyched after no pig for 2 years).

    I found these videos which make it sound like empirical data preceded whacky theory – kinda what I was hoping – and make the whole thing sound somewhat sensical. If you don't know anything about RBTI like me, you might find them useful.


    And seriously, every time you say a patient gets their energy back with Challen, I am ready to jump on the wagon.

  47. Type A-E sounds familiar – like adrenal man!

  48. 1. matt, you're hilarious. marry me?

    2. so, what happens when challen has too many patients? is he training anyone to be able to do what he does and as effectively? or does it not work that way… maybe people recover so quickly that they don't need to be under his constant care…therefore he always has time for new patients.

    3. how much is a refractometer?

    4. what's challen's wife/baby mama like?

  49. So, why isn't this guy more famous?

  50. i want my jaw to expand, too! wow, i'm loving this stuff. my mineral status is probably not great since i def have emotional issues. BUT, i am a mom of a 6 year old and a 2 year old who still wakes up several times a night and who is still nursing. so i'm sure that plays into my insanity these days. it would be nice to know, though, if a few tweaks to my numbers would make parenting easier. the one thing i would love to have corrected is my anxiety at bedtime. it doesn't matter what i do i will literally lay awake all night with my mind spinning if anyone, including my husband, is in the bed with me. it's crazy and i hate it.

    but keep the info coming, matt! we are all chomping at the bit for more and more. your posts need to be exponentially longer with this stuff.

  51. Matt,

    Nice going, you just tipped your hand re: 'catching' him with video tests.

    You think Waychoff doesn't have Google or know about your blog? (This applies to the 'OMG bananas' moment you mentioned previously, too.)

    See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_reading


    What are the chances that some abrupt shift in your general urine PH all of a sudden has him squinting over your 'numbers' and asking in that leading yet oh-so-insightful way, "…Have you had any pork in the last week?"

    I know that you love to nerd out on nutrition, Matt, but when it comes to rigorous skepticism (the method of inquiry, not the 'general feeling of doubt' kind) I think you're out of your depth. Please, for everyone's sake, do your due diligence and read up on cognitive biases, as well as the details of cold and hot reading methods.

    Just because there's pee in a cup and numbers and science-y apparatus involved doesn't mean there's not a whole lot of well-intentioned guessing and collusion going on.

  52. MATT-

    There are so many different refractometers on the market, what should one look for when buying?

  53. This is going down the road to woo-woo, please listen to Hobson, before you embarrass yourself.

  54. Hobson. If he's guessing I'm a freaking virgin !!!!
    It works !!! That's all I can say.. I don't know how and I don't know why and I don't care!!
    15 years of trying stupid freakin diets and supplements and healing modalities and rebirthing and meditation and therapy and herbs and thyroid meds and and and….
    I am currently having a very stressful situation occurring in my life. One of the ones that 1 year ago would have crippled me with fear. One of the ones that would have had me falling apart at the seams, confused trying to work it all out and beating up on myself. All I can say is I am smiling. not to say that I haven't spun out. It lasted a few hours not 3 weeks like it used to. I am peaceful about the whole situation, surrendering to the process. Not beating up on myself, I have been able to sit down and look at my options. Weigh them up, I'm still not clear on what I should do but I'm not having a melt down and melt downs were a regular thing over really small things. RBTI works but only if you work it!!! I have lived a half life for 15 years and I'm not going back. I can seriously see that sooooooo many problems and dysfunctional behaviours and addictions are indeed physical. When the brain works properly it's freakin easy. I don't get worked up over things anymore or at least rarely.. So call Challen what you want.He knows it works and so do I and a handful of other people who work with him…. Toodles

  55. Sheila Buy one off Challen..Plus you need to know what to do with it.. It's not so cut and dry


    It's not? Because that would actually have been my next question. How much is there really to this whole measuring BRIX? It sounds pretty simple, after what I have been reading, but I could be wrong.

  57. Very interesting reporting you have going on Matt, keep it coming!

  58. Pipparoni-

    I think a lot of us are genuinely interested. I've spent 3 years with PPD, high anxiety/panic attacks, no energy, lots of weight gain, and any number of "little" things. Nothing has helped so far, and it's looking like I'm going to have to try meds – so I'm listening to you!

    Can you tell us what your life is like doing this? How often do you have to test your numbers? How long does it take? How hard to learn?

    How much has your diet changed and how rigorously have you had to follow it to get healing? How often do you have to visit/call Challen? Is it outrageously expensive? Will you be continuing as-is long-term? (And I was also wondering if your temps went up…)

    I've done hypnobirthing at home with my 3 children and use applied kinesiology/muscle testing, so you can tell me about lots of quacky things, but all I care about is if it works. :)

  59. "Remember – With a good mineral supply in food and water, you can eat whatever the hell you want, whenever you want, and have great health." -Matt Stone

    That was my point exactly. Trouble is, where do you get food and water with good mineral supply? That's why people are in this mess > our f'ed up food and water supply. If not for that, RBTI would not be necessary. I don't disbelieve it works. I mean I get it. I don't doubt that it allows a person to see where and what is lacking in the food they eat and therefore know where and what to supplement. That makes sense. It just sucks that we have to resort to that because of the laughable vitamin/mineral deficient condition of our food and water supply. It's so freakin backassward.

    Is supermarket food RBTI-approved according Challen? Is that why the supplements are needed? Because supermarket food just doesn't cut it? Even store-bought lemons are useless. Reams said that the lemon juice has to be from ripe and fresh lemons for the lemon-aid water. Lemons (and most all fruit) in stores at least in the US are harvested too early, not to mention all the other toxic things they go through before they get to store shelves.

    So does Challen say no white potatoes or white rice as general guidelines too? Some RBTIers, including Michael Olszta (he and his wife worked directly with Reams himself), seem to think these white foods are not good for you in general. Does Challen agree?

    Note the mentions of certain white foods in the partial list below taken from Olszta's daily dietary guide. I get the white flour and white sugar and table salt, but why no white potatoes or white rice? What does Challen say? Even sea salt is on the list of foods to be avoided below:

    General Dietary Limitations & Other Suggestions

    Any "unclean" food listed in Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14. Included in this list would be:

    Pork and any of its by products including: ham, ribs, bacon, sausage, chops, jowls, crisp pork skins, cracklings, chitterlings and anything else made from pork including fat and lard.

    Horse, rabbit, bear, duck, goose, etc.

    Seafood: Tuna, catfish, swordfish, shark, shrimp, lobster, clams, mussels, etc.

    Beyond these, avoid the following as much as possible:

    Cocoa / chocolate.

    Carbonated beverages.

    White flour products including bread, biscuits, pancakes, cakes, cookies, etc.

    White sugar and anything made from it including candy, cookies, cakes, cereals, ice cream, etc. Read the labels on the products you buy!

    White rice and anything made from it.

    Table salt. Use Lowery's instead and use it sparingly.

    Sea salt.

    White Potatoes (Idaho, Russet, Maine, etc.) should be limited to once per month.

    That's not the whole list. I just pasted those parts from the guide. You used to be able get the latest version of the guide for free just by emailing him directly. But I don't know if that's still the case. Check his website (olszta.com). But there's a copy of it on another website here: http://www.brixman.com/REAMS/rbti_daily_guide.htm

  60. Re: Psychic Skeptics

    The more important issue here is the RBTI theory that certain foods, drinks and lifestyle habits cause reliable and predictable changes to these key metrics and that keeping your numbers within the ideal range leads to perfect health.

    Like the banana example, the point of it is not that Challen can guess that Matt ate a lot bananas. It's that "The Numbers" show high pH and certain foods (and medications / supplements apparently) are known to cause that. If it's true that high pH is unhealthy, then this is a useful tool and this is useful information.

    I had never even heard of RBTI before Matt's articles about it, but I think it's an interesting theory / method and I'm glad Matt was willing to give it a fair chance and ignore comments from naysayers & skeptics.

    It's one thing to test and disprove a theory and it's another thing to just dismiss it outright.

    A lot of great discoveries seemed like quackery when they were first introduced.

    I look forward to hearing more.

  61. I'm sorry about my first comment. I didn't mean it. Forgive me. Keep reporting. I'm intrigued.

    Everything inside brackets is just for Matt:

    {You're a friggin genius. No, hold up…….you're a MFMG (mother friggin marketing genius). This is the kind of stuff that keeps people coming to blogs. You make us hungry. You make us want more of you. We can't stop our fingers from hitting the refresh button. "Matt! Matt! Where's Matt! You think he'll comment today?! Oh gawd I love him!! Matt, Should I swallow the banana whole or chew it? Eat a potato like an apple? Yes sir!"

    And this will make us get even harder/wetter:
    I will do many fun things during this stint. For example, I'll video myself eating 1 pork rib or sausage or something 6 days before a test and video his reaction when looking at my numbers. }

  62. Thumbs down.

    This is ridiculous. There is simply nothing credible to hang your hat on with the idea of RTBI. It should be fairly quick and easy to discredit. It does not even resemble a credible approach to health. It deeply resembles pseudoscience.

    Matt, we sent you to sell the cow and you came back with magic beans? What's next? Someone who diagnoses your diet by smelling your farts? Someone to analyze your bowel movements to determine your health?

    How about this:

    "I can tell by your breath that you need to eat more peppermint."

  63. I meant "RBTI" not "RTBI" in case I accidentally confused anyone.

  64. it's not hard. It takes me 10 mins to test my numbers now. I get to eat ice cream every day =)

  65. Charles,

    I'm all ears if you want to expand on your points there. As it stands though, your comment doesn't persuade me. Saying RBTI deeply resembles pseudoscience, that there is simply nothing credible to hang your hat on with the idea of it, and that it should be fairly quick and easy to discredit it, does not make any of it so.

    As it stands, Matt has offered a framework to make sense of how RBTI might work. You've not offered a competing and more compelling one, beyond mere allegation.

    Have at it, man.

  66. After watching more videos on youtube, it's starting to make more sense. The idea is to measure pH, salt concentration, sugar concentration and conductivity. Each item has a best "range", when out of that range, it causes predictable problems. The theories explaining why can be whacky, but the experimental evidence is there. The ultimate goal is to get all your numbers in range – for a long time – by whatever means, so you can heal. Can't heal when out of range. One day in range doesn't cut it. So, pH high? Lower it with baking soda. Salts concentrated? Drink water. Etc.

    I think the food list Oz found belongs to those specific practitioners, because if the foods are supposed to be biblical, the OT isn't against seafood in general, only shellfish. For example.

    From what I understand, it's not cut and dry because you have to use some investigation to figure out why the numbers are what they are, and take appropriate steps to fix. So, as in previous example, taking baking soda would work – but there might be a better approach with some investigation.

    Of course, this is just my preliminary understanding. But as Matt pointed out, please ignore all the theory behind it, coz it's totally loony, whether you're deeply religious or not… I'm sorry, but cells really do divide. Seen it happen. The main key is all the experimental data came first, from produce and animals, and Reams was able to fix farm animals without any theory behind it, just based on the numbers. And this then translated to people just as well.

    So I'm willing to see what Matt has to say about all this without just calling it whacky. Sure isn't anymore whacky than any vegetable that pokes its head above ground is going to poison you!

  67. There is a framework for explaining Chris Angel as having god-like powers but, as most people have been able to determine, Chris Angel does NOT have god-like powers. Perhaps this RBTI's unique amalgamation of using Jesus and Urine has you excited and hopeful. I envy your simplicity. However, I'm kinda biased towards traditional science. If you all feel a need to float around the cuckoo's nest pursuing shockingly cold leads, I'll take a break from 180 until more rational heads return.

  68. Does anyone ever get to eat meat?

  69. Hi Charles,
    I'm not sure I fully understand your criticism. I don't think anyone is claiming god-like powers. The theory behind RBTI is whack, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work in practice.

    I don't think you need to worry about whether RBTI has the science correct on how cells divide and what not. The video Hawaii Girl linked already gives a plausible explanation for how it can work.

    Matt has recognized something that has unique predictive power and so is deciding to explore it while bringing us along for the journey.

    I think Hobson's advice that Matt do his due diligence in understanding cognitive biases and hot and cold reading methods is very spot on, as that will allow Matt to be objective as possible in evaluating the efficacy (not the theory) of RBTI.

    Your comment on the other hand doesn't provide anything useful and just makes you sound like a jerk.

  70. Just an analogy here. I don't believe the theory behind acupuncture but that doesn't make me reject reports by the NIH and WHO stating its efficacy.

    And Chris Kresser over at the healthy skeptic has an explanation how the Western understanding of Chinese medicine may be all wrong anyway.

    Just an example of something where the theory may be whack but the practice has proven efficacy.

    If you look back through the comments, I think it's clear Matt is primarily interested in testing the efficacy of RBTI and taking the theory with a grain of salt.

  71. I haven't googled RBTI yet, because that'd apparently cause me to give up on it, but I have a few general ideas of how to test its quackness:

    1) How are the ideal ranges of pH, etc. calculated? Have they ever changed with new evidence?

    2) What kind of arguments do RBTI guys have with each other? Do they replicate/disprove or do they just discuss how their field is beyond the reach of empiricism?

    3) Is the practical stuff dependent on the nonsense, or can it be easily detached and worked with separately?

  72. Another:

    Can Waycoff diagnose a person equally well when that person is anonymous and in another room?

  73. Sorry Kelly my message didn't go through for some reason..
    So here it is again.sort of!
    It truly works. I found it through a friend I met on the GAPS board. I was so desperate at the time. Was having panic attacks, crying for no reason, had a tenency towards obsessing around certain things, mainly boys!
    Had depression, fatigue and no motivation and I'd been like that for around 15 years. With the odd time out when I changed my diet. It never laste dlong I might get a month where I felt ok then everything would start up again. I truly believed it was something to do with my body physically but didn't know what. I had tried so many things I was at the end of my rope.
    When this friend told me about RBTI I thought oh no not another stupid system. But I still looked into it.
    I spoke to another practitioner (not Challen) he has a big presence on the internet and appears to be the main person advertising. I signed up. I did get some good results but I was not happy with his lack of contacting me and not answering questions directly. He also appeared to change my program all the time, had me using a lot more sugar than I was happy with and I heard feedback from some people who had hit a wall and were not really ghetting better. Then I met Challen. I knew he was the real deal. He could see the pattern in the numbers. I test myself every two weeks and call him. He always has time for me and is very patient and answers all my questions very clearly. He told me that my moods would improve and I would experience a personality change. It's true. I hardly recognize myself. I was one of the most pessimistic people I know. Everything was an effort and I had been in therapy years working on why people irritated me so much. This isn't bullshit because it really has worked for me. I get to eat pretty much a very open diet apart from the NO foods. I have to be careful with OILS as they seem to irritate me. This is coming from the woman who used to cook everything in butter. I was totally into Weston A Price. But the proof has been in the pudding.. I know I am getting better as my sugars don't swing so much any more. The ratios are getting tighter. I hardly get any pms and I might get 23 days a month where I'm a little weepy but that is getting less. I used to cry maybe 20 days out of 30 before and would be full of either anger or panic.. Now i just feel sad and I am totally at peace with it. Hope that answers your questions Kelly.
    Also it;s not hard to follow, it just takes a little focus but it's totally worth it..
    The test kit cost $400 more or less. and I have it for life. It takes me 10 mins to test and no it's not complicated

  74. Holy crappola matt keep into this.I was testing my urine PH yrs back and found I was actually alkaline.I took that as healthy as acidic sounds bad.I never went further because I felt I was dwelling in no mans land….people just didn't care about PH it seemed.But PH or acidic bodies are know in cancer patients….

    Also,past 3 days I have tried eating just fruit and must say I am starting to feel amazing.Just today I get off the train and when I came to the exit stairs the first thing I noticed is how blue the sky looked.Just a feeling of well being is what I am experiencing.I am also running to work from a generous supply of energy even before I eat anything.Just wanted to point that out.Today I went for lunch and ate rice and beans and when I got home I was bloated out and red faced.I need to know what I can eat for good health and I will eat it.

  75. Pippa – thanks for telling your story. I have to ask you more though!

    How long have you been doing it? How far out of A-range were you when you started, and where are you now? Did you experience immediate results? Did you have to undergo some kind of healing crisis?

    Do you feel like you can or in the future could do this yourself without Challen? Maybe even help others?

    That's interesting about the butter, because we all know it's the best food in the world :). My youngest eats a stick a day. Are you the one who uses corn oil instead? Do you have any macro restrictions (low carb fat or protein)? What surprised you the most?

  76. I agree with what Rob and Aaron said to Charles. Actually, I was surprised and a little disappointed, I would have expected a more open-minded, more thought-out contribution coming from Mr. Peden. Hmmm.

    And the follow-ups were equally disappointing, to which I have to echo what Sirch said, "It's one thing to test and disprove a theory and it's another thing to just dismiss it outright." Even a legit scientist wouldn't argue with that.

    I want to learn more about RBTI before drawing any conclusions. So I'm glad that (with an open mind and healthy amount of skepticism) Matt followed the yellow brick road up to Wheeling West Virginia (brave!) to see the "Whizard" and is reporting his findings. Looking forward to the next report.

    The Whizard: You have the affrontery to ask for a brain?

    Matt: Nope, I'm good.

    The Whizard: Oh. So… you dare to come to me for a heart, do you?

    Matt: No, I already have one of those too.

    The Whizard: Oh. Well you came to Wheeling and yer still here, so you clearly already have courage. So what did you come for then?

    Matt: I came to put this RBTI stuff to the test. Gimme a cup to piss in and let's do this.

    The Whizard: "Okay then. Here, pee 'n this and spit 'n that and yer numbers 'er comin' right up!"
    [A few minutes later]
    The Whizard: Holy shit, child! How many bananas do you eat?!

    To be continued…

  77. Johnny,

    I was happy to see that you did a "take back" — nice. I forgive you lol! Hey I can't be mad at someone who is so friggin' funny! You're a MFCG (mother friggin' comedic genius)! :-)


    I'm curious about the potatoes and rice too. Does Challen have general guidelines like that too, besides the "unclean" meats?


    Thanks for sharing! Which foods are the NO foods? And I'm curious about the corn oil too. Was Dr. Beddoe the first practitioner you went to? He's the one who claims that Dr. Reams said his textbook was a "stroke of genius."

  78. Questions:

    Does the Ionization theory have anything to do with the latest Earthing craze?

    And, did Reams draw influence from or converse with Dr. Jarvis?

  79. Thanks, Pippa. That gives me hope! It's tough feeling that bad. I'm glad you feel better. I'd love to get even a taste of that!

    I've tried lots of things and they're all short-term, which is my only concern about this: can it work long term. Sounds like it can.

    I'd love to hear your answers to the others' questions.

    If I were interested in doing this, how could I go about getting my first numbers? You said it takes training.

  80. What are the NO foods!?

  81. Pippa says she gets to eat ice cream everyday, I'm in! So, does this RBTI thing help with weightloss? I'm so sick of being a chunk! Also, I want kids that look like John Stamos on steroids, jeez!
    And, can I apply these principles to kids I already have and they will turn into wonder kids or something?
    Sounds awesome.

  82. Hey! I've been working with Challen sometime. Yes weight balances out on the program.


    This is a long term solution. Now, it takes time to heal the body, but it is very possible to actually attain 'perfect numbers' which is perfect health. This is based off percentages. 100 percent is perfect health. Now, if you are at an 80 percent, which is attainable, you can eat anything you want, and you will still feel great. But if you are at a 30, you feel it when you eat something you cannot handle. Make sense?

    TO all of you haters, geez is all I can say. Not all of you do everything, but here is what I have seen. People willing to stuff their faces with raw meat, sticks of butter, avoid grains, go vegan, and all this crazy stuff, but when it comes to this, where it is really SOOOOOOO wide open on what you can eat and do with food, except for a select few items, yet you are balking at this? Is it really that hard to believe????

    I have seen miracles in my house with the rbti. But I will say this. You can never learn the rbti without actually doing it. You can't. Period. It cannot be explained. You have to 'see' it. And I promise you that you will if you do it. And yes corn oil is fine and dandy, but not the nut and seed oils. Those are the killers. And yes it shows in the numbers.

  83. Oh, and the test is so fine tuned, that it can even catch the pork gelatin in the condom I used. TAKE THAT UNBELIEVERS!

    Lol. ok over board.

  84. Hmm…This is all very interesting Matt. I am extremely skeptical and lean strongly in the direction of Hobson and Charles. But I'm fascinated nonetheless.


    Maybe people already know this but think it should be said regardless: One is NOT automatically measuring Brix just because one is using a refractometer to measure a solution.

    A refractometer is a device that measures the Index of Refraction. Brix, also known as "degrees brix", is a measurement of the sugar content of an aqueous solution. Nothing more nothing less.

    If someone is measuring the index of refraction of a solution that is pure water with nothing but pure sucrose added to it, the Brix reading is straight foward: all one needs are the proper tables to find the Brix from the index of refraction, or have calibrated the refractometer so it measures Brix directly.

    If one is using a refractometer to measure a liquid solution (aqueous or otherwise) of unknown composition, all one is measuring is the index of refraction, NOT the Brix. It is possible for someone to come up with a reasonable estimate of the Brix in such a case if they have a large sample size of solutions with with KNOWN composition and from this derive empirical correction formulas, but only for samples similar to those that are being tested.

    Hence, unless we are using the proper calibrations and/or corrective formulas, all that we are doing is measuring the index of refraction and not the Brix.

  85. Hi Matt,

    I shared your adventure with my co-worker and we were both rolling with laughter at your sudden switch to Hood-Rat. Imagining you with corn-rows IS worth the price of admission.

    Now on to RBTI. . .

    When I first read your posts, I was thinking this thought about Challen Waychoff: SNAKEOIL!

    Then I had to breathe and take a step back…maybe there is real truth here. Maybe Challen is getting solid information from his (on the surface) "shamanic" readings.

    My question is: Why haven't others in alternative health picked up on RBTI? Is this a relatively new science? Has this been underground? Do you see this as the future of alternative health?

    Thank you for challenging my paradigms…it's good to work off the cobwebs.

  86. Here is an interview Carey Reams did with Acres USA on the issue of hypoglycemia. Pretty interesting.

    The url:

    h ttp://www.brixman.com/REAMS/hypoglycemia.htm

    (Just eliminate the space between "h" and the rest of the address.)

  87. Well Matt,

    You are almost deserving of an invite to the Lantern Corp. :p (don't know if you remember my comment from a few months ago).

    Have a few loooong comments ready to go but on second thought I think I will just sit back and enjoy the discussion and see how your posts (and results) proceed from here.

  88. Why try to justify dismissing something without testing it? What are you boys so afraid of?

    RBTI is simply the same agriculture principles that were used for years to produce optimal soil to cultivate optimal food & animals, applied to the human body to promote optimal health. It's not pseudoscience and it's not rocket science.

    Maybe it works. Maybe it doesn't. But, like Original RBTIer said, only those who have actually tested it for themselves know for sure. I'm just glad I get to test it vicariously through Matt! :-)

    And BTW, it's not well known about because it's not in the BE$T INTERE$T of THO$E who don't want us to know about it. And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out either.

    Oh Michael,

    I just saw your comment. Looking forward to your loooong comments! :-)

  89. If you go to


    you can scroll thru some of Challen's articles and get some idea of his thinking, and also the no foods. I find the list a little depressing, cuz it goes against WAP and Matt and just about everything we know… like potatoes and sushi bad, corn oil and olive oil are the only good fats… corn oil? Sigh. And the list of no foods is permanent. The healthier you are, the more you can occasionally deviate, but it seems to be a list for life. Double sigh.

    But if it really works…

  90. AS,

    Good point.

    However, there is a huge epistemological difference between being skeptical vs dismissing something without investigation.

    All true scientists are skeptics. They are skeptical not only of new ideas, but also of established theories and paradigms.

    One of the ways to test ideas/concepts/theories is rigorously challenge and question them. Through that process, the theory is either revealed to be nonsense, to be incomplete, or to be the best possible explanation or approach that currently exists.* Even if the issue is not satisfactorily settled, at the very least people have a better understanding of the approach they, and their opponents, advocate.**

    What I'm ultimately saying is this: Let the barrage of
    relentless, scientifically based, skepticism begin!***

    * If only it were that simple! Thomas Kuhn was right, scientific paradigms die hard. Scientists don't generally start to accept –or look for– new theories until their current ones lead them to a dead end that they have no way of escaping using current theories. The general populace is even worse in this regard, and the issue is compounded by the fact that most people don't apply appropriate scientific principles to their investigations. They lack scientific rigor.

    ** Unless paradigm blindness or lack of scientific rigor has occurred. Then nothing is accomplished. See * above.

    *** What is there to argue against at this point though? An approach that has no theory as to how it works or whose theory is incorrect ( as Hawaiigirl has pointed out) has cut off all possible scientific discussion. There is only belief or disbelief that it works. At this point, the only scientific way to see if Challen is legit or not is to give him a large number of samples from people he has never seen and knows nothing about, and see if he can correctly interpret their numbers. One would have to run a statistical analysis on the data collected to make sure he performed better than simply guessing.

  91. opps I meant to say 2-3 days a month haha

  92. Yes you can do it yourself. I test myself and call challen, I have never met the dude but we have talked extensively over the telephone. And he is always helpful. I believe you can buy a book that explains how to test. I had a video and it was pretty easy to follow the instructions. It took a while to master it but now I don't even think whilst I'm testing.
    Kelly really if your situation is that bad then you have nothing to loose and I noticed a difference quite early on. I did go through a spell where I was emotionally unstable, feeling depressed and angry on occasions but really all of that has subsided now and I am the calmest I have ever felt. I lost 14 lbs from doing it and as I gained that as soon as I started WAP and just couldn't shift it no matter what I did. I didn't even think about it with RBTI it just dropped off. I have now been doing RBTI for 10 months. I have been working with challen for 6 months now. eventually I will be able to test myself and only call challen now and again if I'm in perfect range then I would only need call him if I move away from that.
    At the moment I am in range c. I have hit range b a few times but haven't hit range A but you have to remember that I am coming from serious health issues and my age also means that it will take me longer to heal than someone who is 20.. I just turned 40..and have been dealing with this for 15 years and for sure I was hypoglycemic as a child

  93. i think matt may be just playing a big joke on anyone here who will fall for it..

  94. DML-

    Can you buy a refractometer specifically for BRIX?

  95. oh my gosh.. the people who are saying this isn't pseudo science.. rbti is the definition of pseudo science..

    and besides.. the only true way to be healthy is through scientology..

    confirmation bias..

  96. 180 is jumping all over the place… low carb, high carb, potatoes, rice, whole grains, fruit, molasses, gelato,…

    Two questions: How come RBTI isn't bigger if it is that effective? It's been around for a long time.

    The most convincing criticism I've read was that (some of?) the readings RBTI uses can vary greatly throughout the same day. How does that effect Challen's interpretation of them?

  97. Actually, I think some of the criticism of RBTI is unwarranted. The theory behind it may be total bogus and I guess it's reasonable to criticize that. But when you look at the general principle, it's nothing more than the good ol' concept of homeostasis.

    The body operates in a pretty narrow range when it comes to all the biochemical processes. So if some of those numbers are out of range, it makes sense to assume, that the body isn't functioning in an optimal way. So whatever, the scientific basis behind it is, if it manages to bring certain values back to an optimal level – as long as the levels proclaimed as optimal really are optimal – then that's definitely a good thing.

    Of course we cannot know if all those rules and ranges set up by RBTI really are indicative of optimal health and whether those certain values tested really are that useful. That's where the scepticism comes in.
    But to dismiss it completely from teh get go, seems silly to me, as the basic idea behind it, the idea of homeostasis, certainly is a reasonable one.

  98. @madMUHHH,this is where I deviated in past when studying the body PH.I found that the supreme consciousness thinks that the human body just auto regulates.But how does it auto regulate is the key I believe.If your acidic and your leaching bone calcium to keep the PH neutral….is that optimal.Or in my case with my excessive hard water consumption raising my PH to slightly alkaline…..what does my body to to counter from too much alkalinity???

  99. DML wrote:
    "there is a huge epistemological difference between being skeptical vs dismissing something without investigation."

    True and cannot agree more. I'm skeptical. But I keep an open mind and don't outright dismiss something without fair investigation… because I want to know the truth – whatever it is – even if it means I was wrong.

    "All true scientists are skeptics. They are skeptical not only of new ideas, but also of established theories and paradigms."

    True again – and they should be skeptical. But again, as you said, huge difference between skepticism and just dismissing without investigation.

    "One of the ways to test ideas/concepts/theories is rigorously challenge and question them."

    No argument there either. Part of my "investigating" is challenging and questioning – that's still not dismissing without investigation. But, better yet, like Reams himself said, "Why guess when you can know?"

    I think people are reading too much into – and focusing too much on – the part about Challen's apparent ability to "read" the numbers. Which I think is what is creating the tendency here to rush to dismiss RBTI without testing it. Anyone who spends a long time doing something can start to easily pick up on things and see patterns. So that's not so far-fetched, to me.

    The important question is, does RBTI work? Not whether Challen can accurately 'guess' what a person ate for dinner last night or 6 days ago. Whether he can or can't doesn't prove anything one way or the other about whether RBTI actually works or not.

  100. Re: Interview DML linked to:

    ACRES USA: What else do you do to help the hypoglycemics?

    DR. REAMS: One of the most important is the distilled water cleansing program. Although most people don't realize it, they have a lot of sugar—including white sugar; sugar from honey; and sugar from fruit—packed into their muscles and fatty tissues. It's packed in there because their sugar metabolism wasn't functioning properly. Their body neither burned those sugars for energy nor excreted them. Until these stored sugars are flushed out of the system, the body may release them into the blood at any time, disrupting the blood sugar level. The distilled water cleansing program is designed to rid the body of these sugars—thus clearing the way for a stable blood sugar level. Next, we recommend that the patients take Min-Col, which is one of the finest mineral supplements available. You can never be sure that the vegetables and meats you eat contain essential minerals. Therefore, we suggest Min-Col capsules, which contain minerals in the same form as in fruits and vegetables. Then we tell patients to eat their fruits and starchy foods before two in the afternoon. Your body needs energy earlier in the day, not towards evening and bedtime. If starchy foods and fruits are eaten after 2 pm, the energy that's released is not completely used, and the sugar builds up in the bloodstream. Finally, we insist that everyone get plenty of fresh air and do deep breathing exercises daily. This is to assure that your body gets plenty of oxygen.

  101. ACRES: So, what do you do to help the diabetics? [This question & answer not in Dr. Jesse's transcript]

    REAMS: Since diabetes – like hypoglycemia – is caused by a liver malfunction – we use the same basic program to handle it.  We use the lemon water fast to improve the liver function; we use the distilled water cleansing program to flush toxins from the tissues.

    From a 1977 Reams Lecture: You can write volumes and volumes about a malfunctioning pancreas but it is always due to a mineral deficiency.

    Low or High blood sugar is not caused by what you eat. It is a malfunction of the pancreas which is a malfunction of the liver.  All malfunction of the liver is a mineral deficiency.

    Then we use the same dietary program to correct deficiencies in minerals and chlorophyll and to rebuild the patient's body. As with hypoglycemia, we insist on fresh air and exercise.

    However, one difference between the care of hypoglycemics and diabetics is that diabetics have to reduce and eventually eliminate their own insulin dosage. This is something we cannot and will not do for any patient. However, patients do not find this a hard task. Once their liver function improves, their insulin requirements drop sharply, often in a matter of days.

    For example there was one 40 year old diabetic man who had been on 120 units of insulin per day. By the fourth day, he was down to 30 units of insulin. By the sixth day, he felt a surge of energy which he had not felt in years. By the tenth day, he was off insulin completely, and returned home. He remains on the diet and has been checking with us regularly.  So far, he has been off insulin for over two years.

    There was the diabetic man who was 100 pounds over-weight, and who couldn't walk a hundred feet without having to sit down and rest. He had been on insulin for 20 years, 120 units a day. We gave him a diet and he regulated his insulin shots himself.

    Several months later, his excess weight was gone and he was walking several miles a day. He felt 20 years younger and was just ecstatic about being off insulin. So far, this man has been off insulin for almost a year. It he continues on the program, he'll never have to go back on insulin.

    We also cared for a 32 year old diabetic mother; the wife of a doctor and herself a registered nurse. Her blood sugar was out of control in spite of the fact that she took insulin. Indeed, whenever she took insulin, it would drive her blood sugar down so fast and so low that she began to shake. She had lost so much weight that she was a pitiful sight to look at.

    Today she is back at home and has been off insulin for more than three months. Although I still don't consider her completely well, I think she has made enormous progress. She now looks simply marvelous and bubbles with enthusiasm.

    Finally, I recall the little 3 year old boy – a full fledged diabetic who was brought here by his mother. He sat around all day and never felt like playing. In five days his blood sugar was down to normal, and three days later he was ready to go home.

    So you see, our program has worked for thousands of diabetics, as well as hypoglycemics. This is because we correct the main cause of blood sugar problems – liver malfunction.

  102. Nice Johnny. Thanks.

  103. BTW, regarding my comment about pseudoscience…

    I was referring to agricultural principles with regard to my statement that it's not pseudoscience.

    "Pseudoscience is a claim, belief, or practice which is presented as scientific, but which does not adhere to a valid scientific method, lacks supporting evidence or plausibility, cannot be reliably tested, or otherwise lacks scientific status."

    Agricultural principles adhere to (and is) a valid scientific method, which is widely and successfully used, and therefore, does not lack supporting evidence, plausibility, nor scientific status. Furthermore, and more importantly, it can reliably be tested — and, for that matter, so can the theory of applying those same principles/method to the human body, which is RBTI… which was my point.

    Unfortunately, like I said before, there are lots of various "interpretations" of RBTI out there (like those that Hawaiigirl and others have come across). And there are different so-called RBTI practitioners out there who (with their own biased interpretations and tweaks) deviate from the original RBTI. And, IMO, all of it is useless in validly investigating the authentic RBTI.

    As I've said before, the closet a person can get is to do what Matt is doing and test it for yourself, with someone who strictly adheres to the authentic principles of RBTI — or just stay tuned for Matt to report back his findings! :-)

  104. I think I agree with madMUHHH. The general principles actually sound fairly straightforward: help the body maintain homeostasis and provide it with all the minerals and nutrients it needs, and the body will heal itself. Perhaps the problem with modern diets and lifestyles is that it's too much pressure on the body and not enough support. It doesn't help that we get out of touch with how or who we used to be.

    One of the toughest things I've found about 180 is balancing the information and intuition. I'm so different than the way I used to be and I feel 180 is helping me to get back in touch with that, but it's a long road. I got tied down by various things and became obsessive and controlling and of course that carried over into food. But everything together is what pushed my body towards ill health, not just the food dogma.

    I feel like people are so out of touch. It's like once you settle down and have kids, people just accept things without question. Jokes about fat and cholesterol or Monday mornings or whatever are common because in a sense people have given up and are not aspiring to anything or thinking critically anymore. Ughh.

    Matt has piqued my interest in RBTI because of it's possible predictive and healing power and because of a possible simple explanation of how it works. Western medicine needs something different going on. Do you think it's actually healing anyone (of modern degenerative diseases that is)? Do you think there is any intention of you ever coming off a medication once you are prescribed a statin, anti-depressant, or blood-pressure med?

    But do people ever look critically at this? Hell no. They just continue to half-believe a bunch of inconsistent things and make jokes about it or torture themselves in the gym. Ugh. Again.

    There's a reason I'm here and it's because I'm a seeker of truth. Anything that's important to the health and well being of our society that feels badly out of place I have to investigate. I believe Matt feels the same way.

    I don't think most people understand the scientific method, statistical relevance, formal arguments, logical fallacies, or critical thought. It's so hard not to fall into a dogma.

    I will say though, I was inspired by reading Weston A. Price's book. And when he discussed soil fertility and nutrient/mineral content, I felt he was really hitting the nail on the head. You look at modern agriculture and it's just so against so many of those principles.

    Look at a group of WAPF followers however and you're likely to see a group of unhealthy looking people dogmatically following certain principles. WAPF sounds like good theory, but it fails in practice. Now look at a group of people shopping at a co-op. Much healthier than the general population, but not WAPF-minded at all… although they are much more likely to appreciate nutrient and flavor content in their foods and buy from small, integrated farms. So in a sense they are getting closer to the principles laid out in NAPD.

    RBTI sounds like a healing regimen that follows similar principles. Modern foods are very mineral-nutrient depleted and many of them add insult to injury by further increasing inflammation or just loading the body with toxins. Combined with high stress, limited access to fresh air and sunlight, and a modern sense of ennui and helplessness, I think it just pushes too many peoples' bodies over the edge. They drift away from optimal health and start to rely on coffee/cigarettes/whatever.

    RBTI comes along and says hey, the human body is no different than any other system (agriculture/aquaculture/whatever). All RBTI really says, if I'm gleaning this correctly, is that we need to bring some of these numbers in line and hold them there (and also provide adequate minerals-nutrients) until the body has a chance to heal itself and start auto-regulating again.

    That, to me, makes far more sense than any of the b**ls**t our modern medical system vomits out.

  105. @aaronf—wow, that's one of the best comments on this blog i have seen in a while. thanks.

    and i agree that when you settle down and have a family it becomes increasingly more difficult to do the research and/or the work needed to really get our health in order. and speaking as a mother who has given birth twice, i can say that having children is very hard on our bodies. i suppose there probably is a way to be so optimally nourished that pregnancy and birth go well and you can stay in that "A range," but in this modern age i don't really believe it's possible for most people. so then we do just give up b/c raising kids adds another element to the mix. lately i've been thinking that while i love this blog and reading what matt writes, he is on a completely different plane than a lot of us. he is single, in very good health respectively, does not have his own children, and can travel all over the world whenever he wants and eat whatever he wants b/c he can have access to any food AND he's a 5-star chef for cryin' out loud!

  106. Yes what AaronF said. That is what I took from NAPD as well when I read it, that our soiled is fuct, and how can we ever heal eating nutrient 'un'dense food growing in ever declining soil.

    How do we get soil fertile again? We probably won't see if our lifetimes. So I am interested to hear more on this RBTI protocol as well.

  107. Hi Sheila,

    Yes, you can buy refractometers pre-calibrated to read the brix of various substances. For instance, there is what many manufactures call "General Brix Refractometer." These measure the brix of fruits, fruit juices, ect.

  108. This RBTI stuff is very interesting!

    Does anyboy happen to know wether you can buy the testing kit in Germany (or even Europe)?

    Or is it possible to buy every tool seperately?

  109. Team Smith,

    I SO agree with you on this statement,
    " i love this blog and reading what matt writes, he is on a completely different plane than a lot of us. he is single, in very good health respectively, does not have his own children, and can travel all over the world whenever he wants and eat whatever he wants b/c he can have access to any food AND he's a 5-star chef for cryin' out loud!"

    Yeah, I'm a mother of 4 young children and I haven't slept a night through in a decade and am still nursing as well and I seriously can't even see straight most days. My physical body has so little freedom to do it's thing, as it is constantly demanded of from a pack of mewling kids! It can't sleep or eat of its own accord because I have all these kids who would die with out me giving them constant physical and emotional nourishment 24/7. So, yeah, needless to say Matt's got it so easy! Recovery for people like us is so much harder, especially since half of what I read goes in one ear and out the other and remembering to apply the principles is like trying to do calculus, because the brain fog is so bad!
    Very interested in RBTI as a possible solution that could really pinpoint what I need and what is going on in the body.

  110. Is there really no food list available on the internet?? That's all I want at this point. It all makes sense to me as far as the tests and numbers go. The reason it's not more well known is because there are not so many health NERDS out there that are willing to put forth all the WORK and learning it requires.

  111. I'm interested, but he's losing me when he states things like this:

    "In Leviticus, God even goes so far as to state that if you use any earthenware vessel to cook pork then that vessel is ruined. It may never be used again and needs to be broken and buried. When you use the cookware that was used for pork for a prior meal you will see a loss of energy in the numbers. Most are blown away by this but it is there and if you continue to eat from the cookware that you cooked pork in or from a grill that pork was cooked on you will never have a good set of numbers. This is shown as loss of energy in the numbers."

  112. Pigs are more intelligent than dogs.

  113. i'd like to hear from some consistent long term rbti-ers. most people's comments here who support it have only been doing it short term or have tried it, then stopped, then tried it again.

    also, i wonder about the validity of testing your numbers. doesn't your chemistry change daily? if not by the minute? i always thought bloodwork/etc was reliable…ya know, going to the doc once a year and getting bloodwork done and being set free for another year. but i was taught a few years ago that its really just a snapshot of whats occurring in the body at that very moment. i was hospitalized for low potassium… when just the DAY BEFORE had blood work done and my potassium was normal. went from 3.9 one day to 2.7 the next. no one could explain it. would love an explanation about the reliability of testing your numbers every 2 weeks. very curious about all of this. would love to test it out myself one day! :)

    other than a few specific questions like the ones i have above… i believe most things cannot really be explained. if it works for you, then it works for you. and that's amazing! i'm very happy challen has been able to help people live another day. i'm also happy to hear directly from the people who have found success in this. you're very lucky to have found a path that works for you! :)

  114. Regarding what Tyler posted…

    Yeah, the "in God we trust" aspect of it kinda turned me off initially when I first discovered RBTI and Challen. Makes me wonder how much truth there is to Challen's statements of that nature… or are they just based on his own personal religious beliefs?

    I would have to throw out ALL of my cookware… for my past pork sins lol!

  115. The shaman may use drums, rattles, sword or burn incense.
    The RBTI practioner may use a refractometer, and ring folder full of notes.
    The ceremony or theatre at some level of thinking – depending on the individual (whatever the modality) – strikes a deep chord.
    Whether one can really ascertain – taking in to account the self-balancing mechanisms of the body what a 'normal' reading is, is open to conjecture.
    Reams is heavily influenced by Biblical teachings and the suitability of particular foods as interpreted through the Bible, and one cannot separate this as an influence on his theories.
    Not to criticize this at all – we all are a mass of beliefs – and if not this, would be another anyway.
    But, if the healing modality – be it meditation, counselling, shamanism, RBTI, etc, initiates a deep change of perception, relieving mind 'un-ease' (and leading to the relaxed, peaceful, de-stressed state), fantastic, it has served its purpose.

  116. The folks who think that RBTI is pseudoscience really amuse me. Reams (and Challan) at least collect data. They control for variables by changing only one food at a time. They have numbers and charts. They made predictions and test their hypothesis. RBTI is probably the *most* scientific nutrition I have yet to come across.

    Compare that to what paleo people or vegetarians believe againt all evidence and logic. Nutrition is a field so rich in misplaced faith real science doesn't get recognized when it's found.

    That's not to say that RBTI is correct. Theories are often wrong. Phrenology was wrong. But science is a method, not a conclusion.

  117. Keriann,

    I would like to hear from long-timers too – but from those who have followed it recently – like in the last 5 years. Having read Dr. Reams' book and stories of people he worked with, I have little doubt that it worked when he was practicing (he died in mid-80s). But I would like to know if it works as well today. Like Undertow said, our soil is "fuct" and ever-declining so our food quality ain't what it used to be!

    With regard to the tests, Dr. Reams believed that testing urine and saliva was much more reliable than blood tests and that's why he didn't do blood tests – for the exact reason that you pointed out – blood tests are only a momentary snapshot.

    Also, there are specific RBTI instructions/timing for testing your urine and saliva. For example (if I recall correctly), someone with normal waking/sleeping hours should test saliva about 2pm (adjust based on waking/sleeping hours), having eaten at least 1 meal that day, but no food/beverage for at least 1 hour before testing. And you should test for 2 or 3 days in a row to validate the results.

    The numbers should be pretty consistent short term (2-5 days) for most people. If not and you have unstable numbers from one day to the next, then that means something in and of itself. Anyway, urine/saliva numbers don't fluctuate as much as blood test numbers do and are more reliable, according to Reams.

    Would be interesting to hear what Challen says about it. Matt?

    For those who have asked about refractometers, they're only one of the devices used in RBTI testing. Here's a good source for RBTI testing kits and supplies:


    The book written by Dr. Reams on that page is the one I've read.

  118. JR,

    Yes, Reams was definitely heavily influenced by the Bible as well, but I haven't come across any statements from him that pork-tainted cookware will actually affect your numbers. Have you?

    But I am definitely fascinated by that claim and would love to see it put to the test. Ahem, Matt? :-)

    Although, I suspect that most *modern* cookware affects the numbers – whether it was ever used to cook pork or not.


    Ditto! Well said.

  119. AS- thanks! that makes sense about blood tests not being as reliable.. also testing a few days in a row to see how/if the numbers fluctuate. appreciate your response :)

  120. Keriann,

    You're welcome. There's more to it, of course, but you got the gist of it :-)

    Hopefully, Matt will be able to fill in some more blanks for us.

  121. As another mom with kids, all of whom could use some health help, this one idea that I find potentially great about RBTI – ONE testing kit, test as many people as you want! It would be so nice to know exactly what to do with each member of our house.

    The food list is crazy though, I was thinking today about it… Hawaiians were obviously quite energetic and strong on pig and raw fish (two big no nos). However, the food list was actually created over a long period by testing people, it just happened to fit with Leviticus, oddly enough. Every single person tested worse when eating these foods, or so the claim goes. I'm wondering, was every single person a (white) farmer, or something? I just can't believe that certain traditional foods that sustained WAP type populations are going to be such energy drainers for every single person.

    And then Lawry's seasoned salt (hello, MSG?) is a good thing. This system would take a major thinking overhaul.

    This is Challen's article about how the no list was created.


    One thing Challen said about why people don't stay on RBTI/believe it is just that – it's a major thinking overhaul, altho for most people it's trying to break away from SAD. I think most of us here are used to completely tossing everything in our fridge and starting over! He could get people better, but they'd just quit, because it's so counter-intuitive in our current health paradigm.

    A blog post about mushrooms! Argh Matt, you're killing us!

  122. I think Reams or Challen said herbalists and such had a hard time accepting the program too, because it really does go against "standard" alternative care too.

  123. Hi folks,

    Just wondering, since I'm having technical problems/lag issues with posting — is there a comment moderation system on this blog?

  124. Lowey's no longer contains MSG

  125. Thanks Pippa! I still don't trust it to be what I would consider "real" food. I'm very skeptical of anything made commercially. So, do you find the no list counter-intuitive at all? Also, being in HI, do you find it hard or expensive to eat as recommended? I'm very committed to eating local as much as possible.

    Do you visit Da Big Island?

  126. Taylor,

    Matt doesn't moderate comments, it that's what you mean. However, sometimes the blogging system will automatically eliminate a comment if it contains links and urls, or if it is too long. I saw one of your comments while it was still up and I think the problem might be the links you included.

    Anyway, good luck! I hope you get your comments to stay up; the one I got to read was pretty interesting. It sound like Reams and his followers have given Reams credentials he did not have.

  127. Yep, I always have to fight with blogger to get comments with links to stick (have to re-post several times – sometimes I just give up).


    Your comments Parts 3, 4, 5 came through Google Reader for me. Fascinating reading!! Would love to read Parts 1 & 2. Maybe upload them all to some free webspace somewhere online and post links to them here?

    Anyway, very nice sleuthing! Not long after reading his book and some other related writings, I lost interest before ever digging that deep into Reams/RBTI myself. Appreciate all the time and effort you put into those comments.

    Still very curious to see how RBTI holds up in practice –in real life– today. Very interested in hearing about Matt's experience with it – but would love to hear from more people who've followed (authentic) RBTI in more recent years – consistently for a significant amount of time.

  128. Quack quack

  129. OZ-

    Challen is way more laid back than you think. The "no-no foods" list confuses people. I don't know why the practitioners tend to list it as such.

    Basically there are foods that always result in a loss of energy when you eat them. This is chocolate, nuts, pork, shellfish, and the rest of the "unclean" foods.

    Keep in mind that, as the story goes, Reams studied first by testing a large group of people to see what foods caused a loss of energy, and, as he tested, he started to see that the Biblically unclean foods all registered a loss of energy.

    The rest of the stuff on the list could be called "unpreferable" foods or foods that are not to be abused. You can eat white sugar, white flour, dairy fat (in fact we eat quite a bit of it despite drinking skim milk), processed foods, and so on.

    And you don't need perfectly-grown food. It's understood that food is not perfectly grown, that people have become demineralized, and that with proper body chemistry management and mineral supplementation, you can remineralize and heal from the seemingly-complex array of health problems that stem from the core condition of inadequate mineral supply.

    Challen tells me often that people make eating too complicated, and that Reams used to tell him that he devised the program so that people could achieve this buying regular foods down at their local supermarket. That is, available to anyone.

    And we eat regular foods, there's no doubt about it. And processed foods, which I think of as being the primary cause of excess body fat. Being a little tighter about that would probably make the followers of RBTI leaner than they often are. Having said that, people can and do lose lots of weight on RBTI. One man that came in yesterday has lost just under 40 pounds in 6 months I think.

  130. Oh and salt. The food is still highly salted. Something about eating it in its crystalline state that is particularly problematic. Challen tells people they can salt their food all they want when cooking it, but not to add cystalline salt to the food after it has been cooked. Not sure what that's all about, but this is not a low-salt diet and certainly not a no-salt diet.

  131. About the link business: Try to make the links not to seem like real links. I think just leaving out the whole "http://www." business is enough to confuse blogger. Like this:


    Actually, if Matt weren't that lazy, this problem probably wouldn't exist. As far as I know, the spam filter works just like a regular mail spam filter. Which means that if Matt actually checked that spam folder every now and then and labeled all those non-spam posts that got filtered out as "no spam" the filter probably wouldn't be so harsh and would stop deleting so much stuff.

  132. Jim-

    90% of Challen's clients are people he has never seen or met and only works with over the phone. He had never seen Pipparoni until I showed him a picture of her on Friday.

    In fact, his most impressive session was a phone consult with a first-timer the other day. The accuracy of what he says freaks people out. I actually think that's why few people give his stuff a shot. They think it's black magic or that he's psychic or something, haha. He's not psychic, just obsessed. Obsessed enough to identify and catalog all the identifiable patterns.

    Most of his "psychic" powers are similar to a doctor seeing the following information from a patient they had never seen…

    Female – Age 59
    Fasting Glucose – 175
    Weight – 265
    Blood pressure – 160/110

    "Okay, so these numbers tell me that you are storing fat above the waist in sort of an apple shape, not a pear shape."

    "Oh my gosh doctor, how did you know!???? You must be psychic!"

    This of course is a well-established constellation of health problems that signify a certain body chemistry.

    RBTI just establishes a lot more constellations of health problems and a lot more subsets of body chemistry.

    What makes it superior is that the interrelationship of the numbers is EVERYTHING.

    Even the other RBTI people try to tweak numbers in isolation.

    But often having perfect numbers except for a maybe one being off, like perfect pH's and a low sugar of .9, means that you are not close to perfect, but probably dying of cancer!

    Lowering pH for example will lower someone's sugar level. So say someone has a sugar level of 1.5 and a pH of 7.5. By the time you force the pH to 6.4 that person will by hypoglycemic being belief and perhaps totally unable to function.

    This is also true of the relationship between the salt number and the sugar number. The salt number needs to be at least 400% higher than the sugar number.

    So if a person has a sugar level of 3 and a salt level of 7 (which is considered perfect) they will be so sick that they wouldn't even be able to function like a normal human being.

    If you study my numbers, you can see that my sugar, pH, and salt levels are all in pretty good proportion. They need to all move down together. There is no mismatch or disharmony there.

    Someone with high salts and low sugar would be in bad shape. Or high sugar and low pH.

    Maybe that might give you some idea of how the interaction here could actually tell a pretty precise story of what is going on in someone's body.

    What really matters is that you can tweak these numbers around, if you know what you are doing like Challen does, with great ease and total reliability (unless a person is beyond the point of no return).

    If you think that there's no chance that this could be useful, and want to call RBTI quackery outright with no exposure, experimentation with it, or observation of what others are experiencing, then that is a damn shame.

    I'm not ready to call RBTI the one and only way, but clearly there is something here of value.

  133. AS-

    Other practitioners think the timing of the testing matters. It does not. Challen tests anyone, any time of day, no matter what they've eaten. And those that follow the program have solid numbers any time you test them.

    Even if the numbers are slightly different, like right after eating, the pattern is still the same.

  134. Matt,

    Very interesting about the testing. Makes it even less rigid and complicated. Good to know! :-)

  135. DML-

    Thanks for that link. You can see that there is plenty of intelligence backing RBTI. I would say 1% of the medical professionals understand some of the simple sugar regulation principles pointed out by REAMS in that interview from decades ago.

    Even I am one of only few that say that treating hypoglycemia with a low-carb diet, despite patients feeling good doing it in the short-term, is just medicating but not fixing the root problem – a very simple concept but a total paradigm shift for the modern approach to nutrition (which can be summarized by finding what you don't tolerate, and then avoiding it and not fixing much in the process).

    Also, thanks a bunch for your correction of Brix. I appreciate it. It's just a simple reading of the total carbohydrate content of the urine, not the Brix calculation factored in.

    I'll be writing about the refractomer next. In fact, I can say prematurely that the refractomer should replace blood glucose testing worldwide tomorrow. You have no idea. This thing is incredible. It is so spot on. I'll go into detail as to why this is true.

    Without following any RBTI "rules" or being bothered by some of its wackiness, the refractomer as a stand-alone tool is up there with body thermometer as the best home testing tool for self-guided dietary fine-tuning.

  136. Interesting stuff about the supermarket foods too. I would imagine supermarket food back in Reams' day wasn't too bad. But it probably takes more supplements to compensate for the poor quality of supermarket food today, huh? Has Challen mentioned whether he's noticed a difference — increase in the need for supplementation — over the last 30 years that he's been practicing?

    The salt thing is very interesting too – and confusing. I've actually read that the opposite is true. That you should salt food after it's cooked because, supposedly, cooked salt (and processed salt–cause of the heating) is bad for you due to the chemical changes caused by the high heat. Hmm??

  137. I was just reading the article Hawaiigirl posted about the "no-no" food list…

    "Each client [of Dr. Reams] was asked to keep a food journal where they recorded everything that they ate no matter how small it was.

    As he tested his client and he studied the food journals he realized that everyday that anyone would eat certain foods that there was a loss of energy in the equation. The days that they ate other foods there was a gain of energy. He started compiling a list of the foods that caused a loss of energy.

    Hence the rule: Anyday that you destroy the numbers it will take you 6 days to recover. (You are able to see this actually happen in the numbers)…

    In time he [Reams] had a list of the "no" foods. When he studied this list he realized that he had seen most of this list before. He went back to the Bible and in Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14 God had already listed a "no" list that was very similar to the list that Dr. Reams had compiled.

    There were a few other items on Dr. Reams list i.e. chocolate, nuts, tea, white potato and etc. that God did not list. Never the less these foods also caused a loss of energy when they were eaten."

    When I first read Reams' book, I recall finding it interesting how God didn't 'know' (or rather the Bible didn't say) anything about those *other* foods that ended up on Reams' "no-no" list. But that was one of the things that got me past the religious influence and want to investigate further. That seemed more incidental than Biblical.

    Anyway, according to that article, looks like the white potato is a "no-no" — which answered that question.

    However, I eat mostly red-skin potatoes (but they have white flesh) and gold flesh potatoes. What does Challen say about red, gold, and other potatoes? Does "white potato" literally mean ALL light-flesh potatoes?

    I guess I need to read the rest of Challen's articles. Ugh lol! :-)

  138. Keriann-

    The numbers do change dramatically. That's why other RBTI practitioners that are not looking for patterns struggle to get results. Reams could see the patterns, but he never documented it.

    Challen worked on it and worked on it and worked on it – once testing himself 6 times per day for years. In 2005 he finally "got it," and was able to see the patterns and what he refers to as the "wobble." (He was a mathematics major or I bet he never would have been able to achieve this).

    Basically the body chemistry rides a wave. There is a 24-hour wave set by circadian rhythms and there is a 6-day wave (3 days above baseline and 3 days below before the full wavelength is completed).

    So the numbers travel all over the place. They are always in motion. Trying to take a freeze frame is pointless if you don't understand the natural fluctuations.

    Anyway, none of it is all that stable, but the patterns are stable.

    The objective of RBTI is to stabilize body chemistry, bringing the fluctuations into tighter and tighter ranges close to equilibrium or homeostasis. Without the radical fluctuations the body can heal itself.

    Like it or not, but one of the identified energy-loss foods and the body chemistry goes on a wild ride up and down for a 6-day period. Based on this 6-day timeline he can see how many days it has been since you threw your chemistry into chaos.

    Pretty interesting stuff no doubt. But like I said, now we will see how it performs, and if being in the ideal range (which he can reliably take people to with close guidance) really can heal and remineralize a person more than just switching to a healthy, consistent diet without junk.

  139. AS-

    Yes, I find that there are other foods listed besides what is in the Bible as reassuring. It's not implausible that who wrote the Bible could tell somehow what foods of the day did cause problems to occur in the body. I imagine it was much easier to tell when there were only a few foods that had that effect. Nowadays just about every food will do it.

    You can eat some potatoes and some rice if you are in good health. They are not forbidden foods, just not ideal foods especially if you are prone to radical fluctuations in sugar levels and are trying to maintain more consistent levels.

  140. "Now we will see how it performs, and if being in the ideal range (which he can reliably take people to with close guidance) really can heal and remineralize a person more than just switching to a healthy, consistent diet without junk."

    The big question, yep. Looking forward to the findings.

    Also, agree with Brock- this system is quantifiable, falsifiable, has predictive power, and repeatability. Sounds like the hallmarks of a scientific approach.

    But hey, those RBTI folks seem like kooks to me, so probably better to not investigate and mock Matt for doing so.

  141. Rob,

    Funny, I was thinking the same thing. The first time I researched RBTI, the more I investigated, the more turned off I got. But I agree, it's all the RBTI kooks and misinformation out there. Even that timing/testing info that I had read (somewhere?) is unnecessary, per Challen, according to Matt. So I think I need to stop investigating and leave that to Matt.

    Really glad Matt found out about RBTI and Challen and is giving it a fair assessment.

    Gonna limit my research to Challen's articles and Matt's findings for now.

  142. Rob,

    P.S. So how have things been going up there in NYC? :-)

  143. Matt wrote:
    Yes, I find that there are other foods listed besides what is in the Bible as reassuring. It's not implausible that who wrote the Bible could tell somehow what foods of the day did cause problems to occur in the body. I imagine it was much easier to tell when there were only a few foods that had that effect. Nowadays just about every food will do it."

    Yep, those were my thoughts exactly.

    **Some parts of this information are being blocked due to filters. Full comment with links to references HERE: urlnotes.blogspot.com/2011/07/re.html

    Reams' actual qualifications are hazy, and there is conflicting information on his schooling and degrees; sometimes he signed his name with 'DS' and called himself a "physicist", as well as a "biophysicist", "biochemist", "agronomist", "Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine", and "Ph.D",. He also touted five "doctorate degrees", including "Bio-chemistry, Osteopathic M.D., Naturopath, Zone Therapy, and Philosophy." There is no evidence of Reams completing these extensive and time-intensive degrees from any accredited schools. 

    He also claimed to be a longtime friend and research associate to Albert Einstein. There is no evidence of this connection beyond mention on a handful of RBTI-associated sites.

    During the 1940s (or 1927, depending on who you ask) he traveled to England to attend medical school at Oxford University. There is no evidence of his purported MD credentials from either of these time periods.

    Somewhere during this time, Reams wound up enrolling in the military as a chemist to "teach chemical warfare courses". Promoted to the status of Major, he was purportedly injured in 1945 in New Guinea (or Japan, or the Phillipines, depending on which source you read) and paralyzed from the neck down. He said he was awarded the Purple Heart. 

    Again, there is conflicting information–various claims state he was in a coma, received extensive brain surgery, and rendered quadriplegic; others that he progressed to waist-down paralysis, and still others that he was able to walk with crutches. This crippling episode is repeated as a major anecdote throughout his lectures and tapes, as well as by writings of his clients and students. 

    (continued in Part 4)

    **Some parts of this information are being blocked due to filters. Full comment with links to references HERE: urlnotes.blogspot.com/2011/07/re.html

    Five years later, Reams took a bus from Florida to Philadelphia to attend a faith-healing service of evangelist Kathryn Kuhlman. Quoted from here: 

    "After the war his recovery did not progress as hoped, and he deteriorated to the point that he was considered to be close to death. At this point, in desperation, he travelled to Philadelphia to attend a Katherine Kumen(sic) faith healing service. The service, later documented in Katherine Kumen's book apparently produced a miraculous cure for Reams, and he was able to walk and function normally. Dr. Reams' subsequent conversion to Christianity would greatly influence his later work."

    (Note: Kuhlman's 'healing abilities' were publicly disproven in 23 cases of fraud, and led to the death of at least one person.

    Her account of Carey Reams' sudden miraculous recovery from paraplegic to injury-free can be read, along with the full text of her book 'I Believe in Miracles', here.

    Examples of Kuhlman's services can be watched here and here.)

    In the years to follow, he opened a number of expensive health/spiritual retreats throughout the country and Mexico, touting the RBTI system as a cure for cancer, diabetes, and other major illnesses. He also claimed to be able to predict the exact year and day someone would have a heart attack, sometimes decades into the future. Descriptions of his retreats include the following:

    "…It was accomplished by using laboratory instruments and techniques normally used for agricultural testing. Using these figures, he could tell the person exactly what's his condition, exactly where a tumor is forming, and he could predict when a person might get a heart attack. Dr. Reams started a Health Retreat in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Georgia. […] His success with treating terminal cancer patients, abandonded by the regular medicine to die in peace, was astounding. He only lost 6 patients of the 10,000 treated in one year!"

    (continued in Part 5)

    **Some parts of this information are being blocked due to filters. Full comment with links to references HERE: urlnotes.blogspot.com/2011/07/re.html

    Reams was arrested and jailed multiple times for practicing medicine without a license. When confronted, he protested on the grounds that he was an ordained minister and simply offering spiritual counsel to his 'patients'. He was eventually made to shut down his Blue Ridge retreat and banned from the state of Georgia. 

    As reported by the National Council Against Health Fraud: "1977 (Virginia): Steven Fink, 6, died at the religious mountain retreat of Carey Reams, a self-styled "biophysicist" who claimed he could cure diabetes. Reams has been blamed for other diabetic deaths as well."

    During this time, he shifted his focus towards teaching the RBTI system via paid seminars and taped lectures, many of which are still quite expensive in their current form. All of his lectures began with 'devotions' and are equal parts religious thought, personal anecdotes, business management and scientific-sounding terminology.

    Despite Reams' claim to at least two physician doctorates, in 'Health Guide to Survival', (1976) considered one of the most popular introductions to RBTI and co-authored with Reams, the author states, 

    "Neither the author … nor Dr. Carey Reams is a medical doctor. … he is not engaged in the diagnosis or treatment of disease. Both the author and Dr. Reams are interested in teaching the health message as it is written in the Bible."

    (Note: The author in question is Salem Kirban, a Biblical end-times false prophet who authored books such as 'The Salem Kirban Reference Bible' and '666'. Kirban later turned to marketing health water and blue-green algae supplements when the accuracy of his prophecies didn't pan out.)

    Further details on the method Reams used to obtain the "perfect numbers" of the RBTI to follow.

    Thanks for reading this far! Phew, getting that through was a doozie. :) That's all for now, folks.

  147. Pippa –

    So 6 months with Challen has you feeling that much better? You're right, I've got nothing to lose at this point. We've tried as much as we can (diet, supplements, different practitioners, blood tests, etc.) without going on meds. I was looking for a doctor to get me on thyroid meds this week when Matt posted about RBTI.

    What's trying one last thing?

    It's good to hear that it's sustainable and also isn't just another short-term quick fix (like soo many things I've done).

    My email address is kellypay@gmail.com – could you email me? I'd love to hear more about your story, since I saw that you were on thyroid meds at one point. Those are my next option, since husband and I both agree that I just can't keep going like this (with three very small children).

    I was also wondering if after 6 months you've started noticing patterns on your own. Can you tell sometimes when you need to make a change to something without Challen? It'd be great to be able to "self-regulate".

  148. Matt ~

    I would love it if you would address my previous comments.

    Were you aware of any of the above information? If so, what are your thoughts on it?

    I have further details to share (and lots of questions to ask) about the scientific specifics of Reams' ideas and how they work. I'd like to hear your thoughts on this foundational information, too.

    I like being open-minded and reading information from many sources, as well as exercising my critical thinking skills. I'm not sure why you've recommended that folks not read up on RBTI before trying it, so I apologize if sharing what I've found is against the rules.

    Is it wrong that I would find the above concerning, before ever even touching the science or method itself?

  149. Taylor/Hoboson – you put a lot of work into compiling all these references for your blogpost. I found it interesting to click through and read the references myself. Allows me to decide whether I believe the reference or not. I have to point out that Einstein himself could be considered rather sketchy, depending on how you put together his life story. After reading this and that, I agree with AS that I don't care about the theory, I only care about if it actually works to heal. I agree with Matt that anybody (given the practice) could diagnose like Challen. I don't see that as the issue. I just want to see if people – everybody using it – get better.

    Matt, again I have to ask – does everybody react negatively to the no foods? Could we get some rural Japanese person regularly eating raw fish and pork and rice tested? I'm still thinking ethnicity has to matter, because there are populations who obviously thrived on some of these no foods. Or were they just healthy enough to start with that it didn't matter?

    Do you think the guy lost 40lbs just because he's eating better overall?

    Also, you mentioned that it took Challen forever to see the patterns, and he's a mathematical whiz to boot – if he got hit by a truck tomorrow, can anybody else do what he does? Just curious.

    What about statements like kids under 12 shouldn't eat meat… some of these things are wacky when viewed against traditional populations.

    I think white potato means nightshade type potatoes. Which ancient Jews wouldn't have had access to, so of course it didn't make the list.

    And anybody who slams RBTI because it's "Christian" – most Christians get really upset at the idea of an unclean food list. It's really a Jewish and Muslim idea, whether Reams and Waychoff are Christian or not. Does that make it acceptable? What if it were a Tibetan monk list, does that make it more worthy of investigation? I'm not sue what I am religiously, but I do know I'm sick of things being put down just because they're "Christian". Get over being forced to go to church as a kid!

    Matt, one more question – you talked about the ideal body temp matching up with this system. How about other markers of "health"? Does somebody who is healthy according to RBTI numbers have good glucose, cholesterol, bp, etc?

  150. Kelly, last month I actually ordered naturethroid from an online pharmacy that doesn't need a prescription – exactly the same story as you. Exactly. Over one year of Stone hasn't fixed everything yet, and I can't take the exhaustion anymore – and I can't afford to keep going to the dr and getting tested, esp when no two doctors can agree on what to do. It hasn't arrived yet, but I'm going to put it off, for now. The catchphrase "Why ask when you can know?" is really calling to me.

  151. Is coconut oil a nut oil?

  152. Lorelei ~

    Thanks for reading/responding.

    you put a lot of work into compiling all these references for your blogpost. I found it interesting to click through and read the references myself. Allows me to decide whether I believe the reference or not.

    Yes, that's why I made sure to include the links. I try to make sure not to make unfounded claims; any information that did not have a link attached came from transcripts and/or MP3s which I could not link to since they're on my hard drive. You'll notice that most of the references were pro-RBTI and Reams-devoted sites, which means that they're as close as we'll ever get to an 'expert witness' on the subject.

    I have to point out that Einstein himself could be considered rather sketchy, depending on how you put together his life story.

    I'm not sure what the veracity of Albert Einstein's life story has to do with RBTI and the subject of my post. But if you asked me to start a health protocol that involved banning certain foods, paying a practitioner and buying expensive test equipment to use every day in order to get well, based on something Einstein recommended — I would absolutely do the same kind of due diligence.

    (A cursory glance at Google shows that job might be a little easier to corroborate information on, via unbiased third parties.)

    After reading this and that, I agree with AS that I don't care about the theory, I only care about if it actually works to heal.

    Not caring is absolutely your prerogative. What I would like to clarify is, what constitutes as "working to heal"? How is healing measured — by a tumor disappearing? A change in blood test results? A consistently trackable change in temperature? Or a generalized feeling?

    I agree with Matt that anybody (given the practice) could diagnose like Challen. I don't see that as the issue

    I agree with both of you. I think you, or I, or my ten-year-old niece could learn to do what Challen does, given the practice. However, I do not think the method involves doing what it claims to do.

    The real question is: what precisely is Challen doing? Matt has not yet specified the details of the method or its falsifiability, which I would love to hear more about. A few simple double-blind trials would answer a lot of questions.

    I just want to see if people – everybody using it – get better.

    Me too. Again, that brings up the question: What exactly does "getting better" mean, and how can we track it in a meaningful way that shows RBTI was the reason?

    And anybody who slams RBTI because it's "Christian" –

    Sorry, just to clarify–were you addressing this to me, or someone else in the comment thread?


  153. Reams agricultural theories make me wanna yell "JuuuuUSSsssSStTTT WWwwwwwWWWWAATttCCCCHhhh THhhhhhhhhhIIIIIIIiiiiiiS!!!!" at the top of my lungs. He's kinda dumb.


  154. (Trying to get this to stick – gonna split it into 2 posts)


    Did you delete 1 & 2 above? And maybe you already know this, but the link above to your blogpost has a " at the end after the html – causing an error page. Removing the " works and I was able to read all 5 parts. Again, really appreciate all of the effort. I tried to post the following comment on your blog, but it won't let me post without a profile, so I'm posting my comment to you here…

    Dang it! You made me look in the box lol! ;-)

    Anyway, kinda wish I hadn't read this…

    "During a period of prayer and fasting Reams received a divine revelation of the biochemistry numbers for humans in perfect health."

    But, as for Reams' background, credentials, and being prosecuted for practicing medicine without a license – I don't care about that stuff. If RBTI really works, none of that matters.

    Hell, many who do hold a medical license shouldn't be practicing medicine.

    Plus, the "authorities" tried to do the same thing to Dr. Burzynski (prosecute him – even tried to steal his patents)… he was friggin' curing cancer! Dr. Reams claimed he did too. And there are many stories that seem to back up those claims.

    Here's one below…

  155. The FORWARD reads…

    "This author may very well go to jail for disclosing the facts contained in this booklet. You will read about a very serious subject: Cancer. What you will read is the First Person account of how this author was cured of a malignant cancer of the descending colon by a simple dietary procedure. It is expected that this very book will be used against this author to establish legally the fact that he is practicing medicine without a license. He may be ordered by some Court to discontinue the future distribution of this book. Why? Cancer treatment, dear reader, is a major part of the multi-billion- dollar drug industry.

    You are being told, and it is now being subtly suggested to you by the many doctor type TV shows, that the American Cancer Society and the American Medical Association are leaving no stones unturned in an all out effort to "find the cause of cancer." But at the very same time, every possible force and pressure is being applied to prevent doctors from using known and effective cancer cures. Instead, they are only permitted, by AMA agreement and government coercion through the Federal Food and Drug Administration, to treat cancer by means that they know are futile: Chemotherapy, cobalt radiation, and finally, the delaying tactic of surgery.

    Perhaps you think this is strong language! If the author dared, it would be even stronger: MURDER ONE. The author's grandfather died of colon cancer. The author's father died of a cancer-related heart attack. His sister has cancer and has taken the Medical approach and is currently suffering from a series of unnecessary operations as her cancer strikes in first one place and then the other. None of these cancer victims were ever told by their Marcus Welby-type doctors that there are alternative choices; that there are valid and effective cancer cures that do not involve such radical surgery, expensive drugs and radiation.

    Any doctor who happens to stumble upon an effective treatment, or who develops one after years of research, may well be thrown into jail, harassed by the Courts in AMA initiated lawsuits, or driven out of the country. It is widely known that cancer can be cured in Mexico, but unfortunately by the time the average cancer patient learns of such treatment, if indeed he ever does, the practitioners of the AMA have taken the last of his savings and insurance. With no money left, the patient is found to be "terminal" and sent home to die.

    For whatever good it may accomplish, and on behalf of the pitiful cancer patients now longing for the relief of death, this booklet is being published."

    The rest of it is here:


  156. Taylor – most of my comments were generalized, not just for you :).

    Since the good Mr. Waychoff has only had his clinic in it's current incarnation for 6 years, I guess that's the best data we can hope for – somebody who's been doing this with him for 6 years. Not sure if he was an ND before, and if so, what his focus was.

  157. Just to clarify the religion thing…

    I don't have anything against *any* religion. That's probably because I was not forced to go to church as a child. I wasn't *forced* to do anything as a child. I was allowed to make my own choices… and mistakes. Best learning I got in life was outside of a classroom.

    I respect everyone's right to practice any religion of their choice. Religion is just not my choice at this particular time in my life. And I'm skeptical of statements like the one quoted above in my comment to Taylor. And like this, "It works because God said so in the Bible." And this, "Ionization is God's laws putting things together and taking them apart ion by ion."

    But that's just me. To each their own :-)

    I'm curious about coconut oil too. Is coconut and coconut oil okay, in general, according to Challen?

    Matt? Pippa? Original RBTIer? Anyone?

  158. AS and Lorelei ~

    Thanks for your responses. I will be answering them in a moment.

    MATT ~

    The spam-filter settings on your blog seem to be blocking AS', mine, and others' comments due to links. Could you please adjust the settings so that the discussion can continue without multiple failed reposts on all of our parts?

    Thanks in advance.


  159. AS, I'm not meaning you specifically. It's just a general rant based on how many people have said they have no interest because RBTI is "Christian". It drives me crazy when people automatically dismiss something when it's "Christian". The info can be good, even if you don't agree with the source.

    For example, we use a creationist textbook for Chemistry. I think the creationist statements are silly, personally, but that doesn't change the fact that (ignoring the religion thrown in) it's the best chemistry textbook I've used, and my undergrad degree was in Chemistry. It's laid out so well, even my 9 year old is getting advanced concepts like kinetics and orbitals. It's hard to remember what order to teach the basics when you know all the advanced stuff! But I would have never found such a great text if I would have been biased due to the author. It seems to be politically "correct" to bash things that are Christian, whether deserved or not. That's all I'm getting at. Just a personal rant.

  160. Taylor-

    Yes I was aware of much of that. Not all. Even some of the people that claim to have great results from Reams like Jim Daily still kinda thought Reams was a whack job. I'm looking to make a character judgment on Reams or Challen, or say that Challen's approach doesn't work just because he repeatedly tells me alarming things like "the spirit talks to me Matt, the spirit talks to me," but just see if what they do is effective.

    I didn't hear about Challen because somebody read about Reams and his magical healing retreat and believed the amazing claims of it. On that basis, you'd have to be a damn idiot to really get interested in Reams and his work. I heard about it from people who I personally couldn't help who had dramatic results with Challen.

    I felt he was doing something that, at least in certain circumstances, was more effective than what I knew how to do. I thought it was worth a looksie, especially knowing that he could tell certain specific diagnostic things and off-program dietary escapades just by looking at a set of biomarkers and the pattern of their relationship to one another.

    So I did what you do when you read fiction – I practiced the age old technique of the willing suspension of disbelief to see what was going on up here, if anything.

    And the most convincing things I've seen are real clients who have seen their cancer come and go depending upon whether or not they were adhering to Challen's advice, several people who went from having numbers all over the place to having them very tight around the ideal (I've actually been present and assisted with some of the testing), and seen pictures of his kids which, by all accounts, are the healthiest-looking American kids in relation to the parents that bore them that I've ever seen.

    Challen is 5'8" with crooked teeth and a bunch of fillings and his two sons are 6'2" None of them have had braces or cavities. They look truly amazing. The youngest girl has perfect teeth and looks like she is nearly 6 feet tall.

    I'm not ready to sing the Holy praises of RBTI as the ultimate cure all. But like I say and I'll say it again, there is clearly something of value going on here.

  161. Lorelei,

    I knew that, sweetie pie, no worries! :-)

    You just got me to thinking how my comments about it may have been coming across and I just wanted to clarify my position on it – just in general.

    Your comments usually do make me think… I like that! :-)

  162. Taylor-

    I'll look into the link posting comment moderation and see if I can tweak it.

    Hawaii Girl-

    Make it over to Maui and Pippa will test your ass, meaning, test your pee. I'm actually going out there for a couple of weeks before coming back to Wheely dealy. Leaving Friday probably. So see ya in Maui then? Shootz!

  163. Oh, Lorelei, I forgot to say, I completely agree with what you said here…

    "It drives me crazy when people automatically dismiss something when it's "Christian". The info can be good, even if you don't agree with the source."

  164. I didn't see anything about allowing links in comments. I think it's the automatic Spam filter that is tripping up on those. I don't know. Screw blogger. If anybody knows how to turn that off somehow please enlighten me (being what the Holy Spirit is doing to enlighten me here in Wheeling).

  165. No no, you guys need to come here. No can afford one ticket for Maui. It's $180rt now! In fact, I was happy yesterday when my daughter's paddling team didn't do well enough to make it to states – which are in Maui – now I don't have to pay for her to go. I'm a bad parent, I know. Interesting side note, our paddling coach is the kitchen cook, Nick, in "50 First Dates", I just found that out and had to share. But if you came here you could crash and eat for free! And the BI is pretty cool!

  166. Taylor said,

    What I would like to clarify is, what constitutes as "working to heal"? How is healing measured — by a tumor disappearing? A change in blood test results? A consistently trackable change in temperature? Or a generalized feeling?

    Bingo! This is exactly what I meant earlier when I was talking about seeing if Challen could correctly interpret a large number of samples from people he knows nothing about. If the procedure works as claimed, not only should he be able to determine what they ate, but also determine if they are healing. What constitutes "healing" would have to be agreed upon beforehand. Furthermore, as mentioned earlier, a statistical analysis would have to be done on the data to see if he performed better than if he simple guessed or picked up on some sort of cues outside the actual numbers he is purportedly using.

  167. Aww, I wanna be tested! And I wanna be in Maui! Or the Big Island works too! :-)

  168. Matt – make sure you get white pineapple – tis the season. If they don't have it on Maui, then that's your reason to island hop. There's also a new company on Maui called… hmmm… Kaupalana Gold (or something with a k and p and an l and some vowels). I find them at the health food stores – so good!

    Oh, and when we went, there was a new-ish restaurant in Kihei called Cuatro. We just had the appetizers, but they were fantastic. Original, not the same stuff you always see. http://www.cuatromaui.com/index.html I like to eat food I can't make for myself. Course, their stuff may be on the no list.

    Chocolate being on the no list is highly sad. It's my one vice.

    AS, you can come too!

  169. I have been following Matt's blog post and these comments with much interest. I consulted with Challen for two years and followed his instructions as closely as possible. Initially I thought I saw some improvement in my health (though I didn't think it was very poor to begin with), but after two years of doing the RBTI, my hair started falling out, my legs became restless to the point they would wake me at night, and I fought a urinary tract infection for weeks: all health issues I'd never had before doing the RBTI.

    A lot of it sounds good, and in fact, I still follow some of the protocol, such as systematically drinking distilled water and the lemonade, and I find the refractometer valuable for regulating sugar. But I have a lot of big question marks in my mind about the claims of RBTI enabling you to be sure about your health. I think the numbers can reveal some things about one's health, but I have huge doubts that they show everything there is to know. I am concerned that Reams' claim that one "can be sure" about what's going on in one's body with RBTI gives its followers a false assurance that they know all that is going on in their bodies, when in fact there very well may be things going on that don't show up in their numbers. Challen didn't seem to know why I was having the health problems I mentioned above, and his instructions were to keep doing what he'd been telling me to do.

    Other concerns I have include the cost of doing and/or learning the RBTI. One cannot do the RBTI without either having someone else interpret the numbers, or learning to do so oneself. To accomplish either involves spending several hundreds of dollars upfront to just get started with the test kit and supplements. Consulting with Challen is reasonable in cost but adds up over time, especially when there are multiple people in one's family to consult with him about. Learning the RBTI well enough to read the numbers and adjust diet and supplements accordingly requires buying high-priced training material that is poorly produced (i.e., photocopied spiral bound "books" and videos of so low quality you have to strain to hear what is being said).

    (continued below)

  170. If this is the end all/be all of good health, information about how to do it should be easy to find and learn from those who are eager to share it freely. There should also be a wealth of testimonies from people who have followed the RBTI, not just claims about those who have been helped from those who are trying to make a living from it as practitioners. I have spent countless hours trying to find such info, only to discover that there are very few testimonials to be found, and any in depth information about following the RBTI is well guarded by those who know it and who will only share their knowledge of it if you buy their expensive low-quality books and videos. Keep in mind that all of what Matt is sharing here is because he is getting an inside scoop by being there with Challen: an "opportunity" that the rest of us won't get. I spent hundreds of dollars for another well-known practitioner's online class, only to discover that his material was hugely disorganized and difficult to learn from. Another well known teacher of RBTI produces better quality material, but again, his textbook is way over-priced.

    Reams made a lot of concrete statements about health and what causes what without any proof to back it up other than his own claims of observation of supposedly thousands of people who came to him to be tested. But where are the records to prove it? Where is the rigorous systematic testing and documentation of such theories? To follow the RBTI one must accept a LOT of unproven theories as fact, and must put a lot of faith in one man's theories – a man who is no longer living and cannot be questioned. Those who studied under him are in disagreement about many things, and argue about who is the "purest" in following what Reams did. To consult with or learn from any one of them means putting faith in them that they know the RBTI accurately themselves.

    It would be nice to not have to guess about our health when we can be sure, but if the RBTI is that ticket to assurance, one must take quite a few different leaps of faith to arrive there.

    Even as a Christian, I have concerns about the claim that God revealed this formula to Carey Reams in a special revelation. What proof do we have of that? And why would God wait until the 20th century to reveal this formula to one man if it is THE key to good health?

    I felt I gave RBTI a fair shake, but am now disillusioned with it. I don't know how to reconcile my experience with the glowing reports of others. All I know is that my experience has been a frustrating and disappointing one.

  171. Dorie, thanks, you're the kind of person we're looking for. Were you then able to improve your health and your hair loss, etc, after quitting, and how did you go about it? Did you have other people in your family on RBTI too? Or has anybody else you know tried it?

  172. AS ~

    Here's one below: The FORWARD reads…

    I am glad you included a link to 'The Curse Causeless Shall Not Come', as I was going to reference it in a further post.

    'The Curse' was a $1 pamphlet distributed by Nord W. Davis, Jr.

    Davis was a discharged Korean War veteran turned 'journalist' (he distributed many such pamphlets by mail and fax from his various homes) and fervent follower and associate of Reams. Davis also wrote extensively on interpretations of the Bible, and was a thought leader in what was known as the Christian Identity movement, a largely anti-government revisionist group which cites Biblical support for white supremacy and antisemitism.

    According to Joanne Fontenot's booklet 'No Time to Die…', Davis, along with Carey Reams and his daughter Laverne, were convicted of felony — conspiracy to practice medicine without a license in the case of a two-year-old with leukemia.

    The factual details of the case are hard to discern, as Fontenot's book is an extended personal testimonial in favor of devotion to Reams with something of a fevered, anti-government pitch. References to Davis and his issues with the law abound, though.

    Considering the above, as well as the full content of the rest of the pamphlet, I think it's a stretch to submit 'The Curse Causeless' as a credible source of unbiased information on Reams' methods.

    Please let me know if you would also like links to this information. It can all be found via Google, but I will take the time to post links over with the others if needed.


  173. Lorelei ~

    Most of my comments were generalized, not just for you :)

    Okay, thanks. :) To clarify — the concerns I have about Reams have nothing to do with the fact that he's Christian specifically, or religious in general. My concerns are the questions of accountability, continuity, legality, motivation, honesty, and credibility in the background of a medical professional.

    Since a huge part of his biography and 'origin story' involves his religion, any look into Reams' background will indeed bring up the word "Christian". That doesn't mean any questions or doubts about that background are anti-Christian as a result, though.

    And I would absolutely be wondering and posting the same things if "Christian" were replaced with "Hindu", "Jewish", "Wiccan", or [fill in the blank]. :)

    Since the good Mr. Waychoff has only had his clinic in it's current incarnation for 6 years, I guess that's the best data we can hope for – somebody who's been doing this with him for 6 years.

    Actually, it seems that Mr. Waychoff's clinic has only been open for six years in its Wheeling location.

    According to a few business entity sites like the one listed below, he previously had a location open in St Clairsville, Ohio.

    That clinic operated for 14 years (or another 8, if this is still a currently-active listing.) The clinic's approximate annual revenue was $110,000, with two employees.

    If the link doesn't work, the URL is as follows, minus the spaces: manta . com/c/mm5tzgy/heavenly-water

    In any case, it seems the longest-term personal testimonial we could expect would be 14 years old. I don't know what his patient retention rates are.

    Not sure if he was an ND before, and if so, what his focus was.

    I can answer that in another post. Right now, dinnertime. :)


  174. Matt, I think it is fantastic that you are looking into RBTI. I first heard about RBTI a few years ago from a family starting a farm in my area to grow veggies with a high mineral content. The mom had had severe, unexplained health problems and been completely cured by RBTI. I read up on it a bit after meeting them but it all sounded so far out. Still, I had talked with Nicole myself and she seemed sincere and rational. This summer I am a member of their CSA and feel lucky to have access to a farm growing such high-quality produce.
    Anyway, Matt, if your RBTI experiment produces good results I think I will make a trip to Wheeling myself as I just discovered that I am only 5 hours away!

  175. Dorie,
    If you're still reading this, I was hoping you could answer a few questions about your own personal story. When you first started with Chalen, what range were you in and how bad were your numbers? You said you followed his diet for 2 years, in those 2 years were you ever able to reach the optimal range? Also, what were your numbers when you started having problems?

    Thanks for your time

  176. Gosh, this is getting to be a deeper and deeper rabbit hole–trying to hang in there with all kinds of crazy life busies going on… Thanks for all the research!

    And wow, a HI reunion party? Drink a coconut for me…

    Lorelei said it already: the "no" foods that aren't in the bible list are "new world" foods, and the omniscient God of the bible evidently didn't channel new world foods to leviticus…

  177. Taylor,

    I appreciate the effort and your conviction. I totally get where you're coming from and understand your concern. But, like Matt said, my interest is not in character judgment of Reams or Challen or anyone else associated with RBTI. Because, again, if RBTI works, then none of that matters. That's why I decided to stop poking around myself, for now, and just see how Matt's experiment goes.

    That pdf I posted was something I found from my past RBTI research. And I didn't say anything about that source being unbiased. Heck, all sources are biased in some way. But it being associated with Reams doesn't make it less credible nor untrue.

    Also, many activists and those who offer better "alternatives" for health care, find themselves having never-ending "issues with the law" and harassed by the authorities (FDA, AMA, etc.) – when the "livelihoods" of those in positions of authority are negatively impacted by those activists and alternatives. Which, BTW, was the point in why I pasted the Forward above. Everything is not always as it appears. And I do realize that that includes RBTI and Challen as well. That remains to be seen.

    Lastly, many 2-year-olds and cancer patients of all ages die under the care of 'licensed' medical professionals. All the while, these medical professionals know of less toxic treatments — even cures — which they don't tell these patients about. And yet they don't get convicted of felonies when these patients die – every day, year after year.

    BTW, have you watched the Burzynski Movie?

    But, gotta say it again, if RBTI works, none of this matters.

  178. Hi, Dorie!

    Thanks for sharing your story. Very interested in hearing the answers to Lorelei's great questions too. She already asked if there were other family members. Curious to know if RBTI didn't work for the others either, if there were any. While you were working with Challen, did you ever have an opportunity to meet or communicate with other people who worked with him – those with disappointing and/or positive results?

    Wow, hearing Dorie's story was a bummer. But a trip to HI would definitely cheer me up! :-)


    Thanks for the invite! It's very tempting. I just might have to see if I can pull it off on such short notice. I love spontaneous trips! :-)

  179. Oh yeah, but anyone who visits has to help with groceries. Only Matt gets out of it, since I figure he'll cook for me and mine.

  180. Quack quack

  181. i lost my post.. so this is a short version

    AS.. are their any studies that make all the claims anything but pseudoscience? i'm having trouble finding them.. each site i go to just gives me more logical fallacious arguments for why it should work.. some even saying that something is the most logical thing in the world.. while having absolutely no logic to the statement..

    brock.. what you said doesn not make something science.. charts don't make science..

  182. Matt, Is high sugar in urine related to a high carb diet? Does it mean that if you tested high in sugar you have to take a low carb approach to solve it?

  183. "Lastly, many 2-year-olds and cancer patients of all ages die under the care of 'licensed' medical professionals. All the while, these medical professionals know of less toxic treatments — even cures — which they don't tell these patients about. And yet they don't get convicted of felonies when these patients die – every day, year after year."

    my gosh.. what cancer cures??..

    "Also, many activists and those who offer better "alternatives" for health care"

    what better alternatives?

    crop circles are people too..

    "james you're trying to explain all that i do by logic, what i do is
    illogical – lady who claimed she was psychic.. and failed miserables"

  184. Dear Anon Duck,

    If you're so certain this is quack medecine, why don't you post under your account's name? Aren't you certain this is horse shit? Don't you want the satisfaction of being able to say "I told you so"? Or are you less than certain of your convictions?

    Personally the main problem I see is that RBTI tries to answer everything with one equation. As Dorie's experience shows it can't do that. I doubt anything can. But the basic premise of using chemistry to diagnose bad biochemistry, and to modify biochemistry is sound. It would not surprise me at all to learn that many problems (not all) can be helped with such a method.

  185. @ Brock,
    Quack Quack

  186. Dorie-

    Awesome to see your comment. Very well-written and well thought out.

    My biggest question for you is whether you worked with Challen before or after 2005, as Challen claims to have not figured out how to use the RBTI correctly until 2005 when he had a breakthrough and began seeing "patterns" in the numbers.

  187. My biggest concern of course is that what Challen is doing is just like what everyone is doing…

    1) Here is the almighty diet and set of numbers. Get your biochemsitry in line with that and Shazaam! You'll feel amazing.

    2) What's that? You don't feel amazing? Oh, that's just your body healing/withdrawals/detox

    3) Still feel crappy? You are not doing the program correctly! You really need to do it like I told you to.

    And on and on until the set of directions becomes so impossibly hard to follow that the person just can't do it, at which point the failure of the program to deliver the desired results is a lack of discipline and willpower somehow.

  188. While you're here: coconut oil? Is it a nut, according to the great Waychoff-his-rocker? Thanks.

  189. Danyelle, I read somewhere that coconut is not on the no list.

  190. Hello, a long-time lurker here. I have to post this because I feel really sorry for the poster who keeps asking whether coconut is on the RBTI "no" list and hasn't received an answer. Here's what's on heavenlywater.com (Challen Waychoff's website):

    [start of quote]

    Dr. Reams stated in his book, "Choose Life Or Death", on page 119 the first sentence of the second full paragraph; "Refrain from the use of nuts, with the exception of coconut."

    This is the way that Dr. Reams developed the "no" list in the beginning. Anytime a food was eaten and it showed a loss of energy in the numbers then that food was added tp the "no" list. Eventually he developed the list that I use today.

    The "no" list that I use today is the same one that he gave to me over 30 years ago.

    The "rules" for the RBTI will never change.

    [end of quote]

    You can find it at:


  191. Hello, a long-time lurker here. I have to post this because I feel really sorry for the poster who keeps asking whether coconut is on the RBTI "no" list and hasn't received an answer. Here's what's on heavenlywater[dot]com (Challen Waychoff's website):

    [start of quote]

    Dr. Reams stated in his book, "Choose Life Or Death", on page 119 the first sentence of the second full paragraph; "Refrain from the use of nuts, with the exception of coconut."

    This is the way that Dr. Reams developed the "no" list in the beginning. Anytime a food was eaten and it showed a loss of energy in the numbers then that food was added tp the "no" list. Eventually he developed the list that I use today.

    The "no" list that I use today is the same one that he gave to me over 30 years ago.

    The "rules" for the RBTI will never change.

    [end of quote]

    You can find it at:


  192. Lorelei aka Hawaiigirl wrote:
    "Oh yeah, but anyone who visits has to help with groceries."


    Of course! Wouldn't dream of having it any other way! :-)

    If I can't make it happen now, maybe someday soon? It would be awesome to meet you. And any 180 peeps! :-)


    Thanks for sharing your story too! Please share anything else you may learn through your CSA. And keep in touch. If Matt's experiment goes well, I just might go to Wheeling with you :-)

  193. Hey thanks Kitchen and Tran! I just can't bring myself to use corn oil, and olive oil is not so great for high heat. Coconut oil is so delicious. Not so cheap though…

  194. To the 2 Anonymous comments addressed to me: (don't know if both are the same person — why anonymous anyway?)

    I have no interest in debating about the "science" (or lack there of) behind RBTI with anyone cause, as I've noted several times, I don't know enough about it (at this time) to make any compelling arguments – for or against RBTI. And I think I've been pretty clear that I don't have any final opinions about it one way or the other just yet either. But I'm certainly open-minded enough to explore it and not just dismiss it without further investigation or testing it. I'm only throwing out my 'current' opinions on it, and they're only my opinions, based on my current understanding of it – and the lack there of lol!

    Like I said above, why try to justify dismissing something without testing it? What are people so afraid of? Maybe it works. Maybe it doesn't. But only those who actually test it for themselves can know for sure. And at least we have the chance to see it be put to the test here at 180. I, for one, am glad (and grateful) that I have this opportunity to test it, vicariously, through Matt. Thank you, Matt! :-)

    With regard to pseudoscience, I will refer you back to my comment above, where I already stated my *current* opinion (pending further investigation) on it here:


    And I clarified my comments on that here:


    As for your question about better alternatives to conventional health care? Are you kidding?? Just about everyone who follows this blog (and other blogs/websites of this nature) knows there are better alternatives out there. That's what brought most of us here.

    And as for cures for cancer? I'll ask you the same thing I asked Taylor/Hobson… have you watched The Burzynski Movie? Google it. Watch it.

    Anyway, I'm here to learn – from everyone here. I'm not here to convince anyone of RBTI, or anything, other than to be open-minded. But then that's just my wish – to each their own. If you don't want to open your mind to other possibilities – besides what we've all been spoon-fed by those who only have our best interest in mind, of course (and certainly not their profits), then that's your loss and that's your business.

    But I only sincerely wish good things for everyone and strongly believe we should all have access to other (better) alternatives, and the right to explore them and choose them, if we so wish. Unfortunately, here in the US, big medical and big pharma will go to great lengths to prevent that from happening, under the guise that it's in our best interest. The very least we can do for ourselves is explore the other possibilities out there and support each other in doing so – not mock and bring each other down.

    Again, watch the Burzynski Movie. Then imagine that your spouse or child had cancer. What would you do? Would you still choose conventional cancer treatment (after watching that film)? But note that if you choose Burzynski's non-toxic(!) and highly successful treatment, your medical insurance won't cover it.

    Kind wishes! :-)

  195. Lorelei – That's how I feel too. I've had so many authorities and experts tell me exactly what's wrong with me, and when I did what they said and it didn't work, it's because I only did 95% of what they said, not 100%. Or they would prescribe me meds when my ranges were clearly in normal ranges and have no logical explanation for why.

    Matt is the first person I've talked to who said things can be complex or mysterious and we have to figure it out.

    I think the markers of a good scientist/thinker are that you're willing to consider any theory, and will follow wherever the investigation and evidence leads. Matt, thanks for willing to do that – even if you look a bit crazy in the process!

    I'd like to hear back from Dorie too.

  196. Matt, the two years I consulted with Challen has been since 2005.

    Your three biggest concerns are right on the money. The whole "it's just your body detoxing/withdrawing/etc" line is one I tend to be leery of as well. While it does have some merit, my take is that it should be relatively short-lived, and then noticeable improvement in health after the misery subsides. And then of course the blame put on the patient/client for not following the program closely enough is another red flag to me. In the case of the RBTI, there are a LOT of things you're supposed to follow to a T, to the point of being impossible, especially if you have any kind of a life. For me, the rigid lifestyle was far more difficult than when I discovered my food intolerances and eliminated them (gluten, casein, corn, eggs, and peanuts). THAT change in my diet produced some amazing results in my health and well-being that literally changed my life for the better. I can't say that at all about the RBTI.

    I do think that some of the protocols of the RBTI have merit, and that the numbers do provide some indication of one's health. But even if the numbers reveal as much as Challen claims, it doesn't mean he has all the answers for correcting the problems he sees. At that point, he's in as much of a guessing game as doctors are in prescribing drugs, in that he makes suggestions based on what he's seen has worked for the majority of the people he's worked with. But individuals are so different, and as sure as one solution will work for one person, it won't work for another. It's a trial and error game as much as any medical treatment is, and rather frustrating when he told me to eat hominy and grits to bring up my potassium, when I know how my body reacts to corn.

    As far as improvements to the hair loss, restless legs, and UTI, they all improved after I stopped taking his supplements. My guess is that I had an overload of minerals, or perhaps an imbalance, such as way too much calcium and not enough magnesium. But evidently whatever the cause was, it didn't show up in my numbers, which strengthens my suspicion that they truly don't reveal everything.

  197. Just wondering about the destilled water… couldn't that cuase hair loss? Robbing minerals and all?

  198. Dorie ~

    You've provided valuable information, and it was courageous to do so.

    You have offered the most detailed and balanced firsthand testimonial thus far, as well as the first less-than-glowing report. As such, your experience is an outlier here.

    You may receive many pointed questions. Some of them may be dismissive of your experience, or imply that you were somehow 'doing it wrong'. Some may gloss over your report in favor of focusing on the satisfied testimonials.

    I am curious as well, but I don't know to which extent you want to be involved in the thread. Please let us know if you're up for ongoing questions.

    If you are, a note re: legality — I don't know whether you're using a pseudonym, but either way, it would be a good idea to review any paperwork or forms you signed for patient-intake with Challen, as well as for your various RBTI trainings. Be aware of any confidentiality or copyright clauses. You may also want to remain nonspecific on the years you attended his clinic, family details, and other identifying information when you answer questions. Always protect yourself as a patient with something important to share.

    I can't imagine what difficult issues might have come up for you after investing so much time and money into RBTI. I believe it's a testament to your faith that you're able to voice your doubts and questions, and thank you for doing so.


  199. It's all about balanced mineral intake? I don't think so. IMO, the intestinal microbiotae are key to a healthy body. People with a health gut can maintain their health in spite of an imbalanced or somewhat deficient mineral intake. Also, nuts are a no food? Hard to imagine… Milk fat is bad, so don't drink whole milk or even 0.1 fat milk… but hey, cream is OK! Makes sense.

    I'll keep watching this. It's amazing and a bit scary how easily people's opinions can swing around (180 degrees….) Gone is the banana enthusiasm and the PUFA fear, we're on to a new train, one that supposedly can heal cancer and regrow bones (but apparently not hair.)

  200. Wow this is really interesting shit. It's sort of like when detectives look inside someone's garbage to see what they've been up to.

    Being open-minded as I am, I will probably poke around and examine my pee (and probably the pee of those closest to me).

    Speaking of poking around, I googled RBTI and found this web site: http://www.rbti.info

    Matt, looking forward to your video of Challen divining your pork-fest.

  201. Hi! I am undergoing and have gone through a couple of programs and treatments for adrenal fatigue, hypoglycemia, arrhythmias, palpitations, and insomnia in the San Diego area. I had an Mi about a year and a half ago. I now have a stent and thank God, no heart damage. I wake up with jitters and it appears that my cortisol levels are not stable and hence the blood sugar imbalance. I am fascinated by the work Challen Waychoff with RBTI is doing in West VA! Is there anything like this in San Diego? Or, if I have to, what does going to WV to see Challen cost other than airfare and lodging? I have been going through the health challenges as mentioned for about a year and a half now. I do lots of praying and perhaps I was lead to this website. I too realize that the right food is key!!! Please respond and provide a phone contact number as I will use it discretely and not compromise you time. I just want to discuss what I am hoping to attain health wise.
    Most sincerely,
    Raul 619-607-03270

  202. Hi! I am undergoing and have gone through a couple of programs and treatments for adrenal fatigue, hypoglycemia, arrhythmias, palpitations, and insomnia in the San Diego area. I had an Mi about a year and a half ago. I now have a stent and thank God, no heart damage. I wake up with jitters and it appears that my cortisol levels are not stable and hence the blood sugar imbalance. I am fascinated by the work Challen Waychoff with RBTI is doing in West VA! Is there anything like this in San Diego? Or, if I have to, what does going to WV to see Challen cost other than airfare and lodging? I have been going through the health challenges as mentioned for about a year and a half now. I do lots of praying and perhaps I was lead to this website. I too realize that the right food is key!!! Please respond and provide a phone contact number as I will use it discretely and not compromise your time. I just want to discuss what I am hoping to attain health wise.
    Most sincerely,
    Raul 619-607-03270


Submit a Comment

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

You may use these HTML tags and attributes: <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <strike> <strong>