RBTI Intro Package

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It’s here and it’s queer! Get used to it!I finally released the RBTI Intro Package this morning. I did the best job I could do of thoroughly covering the basics of the program that Challen Waychoff, N.D., uses to help his clients get some pretty remarkable results.

The package includes the eBook – Introduction to RBTI, as well as the 180DegreeHealth RBTI Cookbook.

In addition to those 2 eBooks, there are 8 videos and 9 audio segments on various RBTI topics – including links on how to get a test kit for as little as $217 + shipping. Note – that’s the price of the TEST KIT, not the package!

Anyway, I’ll spare you the whole sales pitch. If you are interested in doing RBTI, you won’t find a set of instructions for how to follow the program in such clear, concise, organized, and thorough detail elsewhere. You can purchase by clicking on the hyperlink below…


  1. And on time, too. Good job Matt! Can't wait to read it :)

  2. Can't find where to order the testing kit or what it includes. The excitement is killing me!

  3. OMFG- Matt, you are a man out for my own heart! ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;.D bwahahahahahahahahahahaha! lmao! i can't believe i hadn't thought of those…. you are a true genius..

  4. Yeah, man. Hope this reaches lots of folks and hope it helps y'all make a livelihood so you can keep on truckin'.

  5. So as I said on the last post,

    $100 to talk to Matt is on my xmas list!!!!!!

    Although my sugar just dropped to 0… ok maybe 0.05? And I feel like passing out. Which is new because I usually feel much better when my sugar drops (but never this low before) and worse as it goes up. Anyhow, point being, maybe I need to spend the bucks now, since I don't seem to be managing on my own so well. Credit cards are good.

    Matt, are you working through Challen with your consulting? Or are you feeling confident enough that you're doing this on your own?

  6. Hawaii Girl-

    I'd like to work with Challen, but you'll have to read the Intro book I guess to see why I'm not, hahaha!!


    The links for the test kit are at the very end of the Intro book.


    Looks like urine need of an upgrade to your wit and wordsmithing. You can call me sensei if you like.

    Thanks Rob. As long as I make enough money to where I can afford something besides Marie Challendar's products I'll be fine. You guys all know I do this because I love it, and would do it all even if I was a millionaire and didn't need an extra dime to support myself.

  7. Maybe it's just me, but when I first read your post I thought you were charging $217 for the intro package … not $60 for the intro which includes how to get $217 test kit. You might want to make it a bit more clear so people aren't scared off. Just a thought.

  8. Matt, are the videos and audios your voice, or Challen's? Just curious…

  9. oooohhhh burned.. i gotta get out of the kitchen for awhile! lol- you got it sense-i! ;) if you wanna come to AZ for free, ill stand on top of a todem pole with outstretched arms for 6 days or something or walk over hot coals… or i'll buy you as many Sonoran Hotdogs (the dogs are always wrapped in bacon) as you can eat… i find they are great for breaking pork fasts! ;)


    ..the picture doesn't show it, but it is wrapped in bacon-don't worry- the jalapeno too! It's a Tucson specialty..

  10. Sensei, one more question, do you offer discounts on the introductory package to students, or cult followers if they preform self flagellation or can eat 50 mcdoubles or or something? -i'd be very interested to know.


  11. Any chance people like myself who dont care to try RBTI but are just interested in learning about can just get the introduction book? I dont care enough about it to spend $60 but i am interested in what you have to say in the intro book. I think i would drop a $20 spot for that.

  12. subscribing

  13. Does anybody else read ebooks backwards? No, I'm not lysdexic. I just like to read the summary first, and then go from there…

    Good stuff Matt. Since I skimmed, and read backwards, I didn't see why you're not working with Challen, unless you meant bcuz Pippa's doing the consulting and not you? I'll read more carefully now that sugar's back up. But the big phone call is with you right? Love Pippa, but I'm serious about talking with you being an xmas gift (yeah, I'm such fangirl).

    Sugar dropping so low is not fun. Had the kids feed me sugar as I lay on the couch. I could barely even taste the sugar! It was interesting to note the reversal of symptoms – makes me more of a believer. First I could see clearly again, then my blood felt warm in my veins instead of cold, then my hands and feet stopped tingling and started warming up, then the need to pee went away. Still trying to get over the shaky feeling. I know, I know, no more water for me (I hate juice! Bleach!).


  14. Subscribing…

  15. Yeah!! – thanks Matt – finally the program is available to us the unwashed masses!

    Can't wait to start reading…

  16. No doubt, buddy- gotta keep you out of the Challendar food ghetto.

  17. Other than turning you in to a urine whisperer, do you think you could write a summary post on what RBTI is exactly and what one would expect to gain by following its practices?

  18. I want the shirt!

  19. This is great!
    So, how do us Californians go about meeting/getting tested by you and Pippa?

  20. Hi Matt
    a very good job done, quite complete again.

    I am still wondering how the no-no foods pork and duck can be the main food here in the SW of France where many people live over 100 in pretty good health.
    could it be that they just didn't eat that much of it when they were young ?
    or do they balance with the high amount of vegetables and and a schedule close to RBTI recommandations(traditionnal dinner is a light veggie soup) ?
    this puzzles me a lot. your opinion would be great help.

  21. Estelle-

    It is my understanding that health is declining in every country. This could very well stem from a waning mineral supply as more and more refined food discplaces whole foods and soil becomes increasingly depleted. What I feel more strongly about is that the list of foods that cause problems gets longer and longer the unhealthier a person gets. And pork in particular causes a lot of trouble to a weak body.


    We're leaving today. Send an email to Pippa if you are interested in getting together with us on our trip. [email protected]


    Somehow I knew you would want that t-shirt.

    Grasshopper or anyone else-

    If you don't have enough money to pay full price or can't justify the whole cost because you want, say, just one portion of the full package, write to my via e-mail…

    [email protected]

    And we will work something out. I don't want price to keep someone from being able to check out these materials, and can be very flexible as long as there is a real, legitimate need for you to pay less than everyone else has to pay – keeping in mind of course, that my income for the past 3 years is only slightly higher than the "poverty level" in the U.S.

  22. Let’s troll ya, that’s how we roll ya. You have cravings for it, don’t ask me.
    let’s do reductio ad absurdum: there is one person in this universe, matt stone, who thinks that the decline in human health has absolutely nothing to do with the high availability of fructose, the rest of the universe either thinks that excess fructose is a little suspect or doesn’t give a rat’s ass. (Oh wait, I forgot about Ray Peat.) Fructose has become more abundant in our diets, which also happens to parallel with a higher prevalence of chronic diseases, that’s all just pure coincidence. 150 years of observations all across the globe point in the direction of refined sugar and you want to trashcan it. How likely is it that you’re right and everyone else is wrong, transfer that into an odds-ratio: close to ZERO.

    You seem to be a ‘good’ guy on the surface, you’re trying to help people out with the knowledge you’ve gathered in all these years of researching flab-u-lous health stuff. So you’re attracting a lot of folks struggling with health problems. If a high intake of fructose is detrimental for a healthy person, it must be double-bad for someone who already has a metabolic disorder, don’t you think?

    Or is this blog about overcoming compulsive disorders? Eating sugar, yeah risky endeavor, but still, don’t want to have an eating disorder.

  23. Anonymous,

    The mineral hypothesis would probably use the same data about the increasing prevalence of fructose (by which I think you mean refined sugars), but interpret it as the decline in nutrients in food, not fructose specifically, that is generating the decline in health.

    I don't know much about the AGE stuff and fructose's role to comment adequately on your proposed mechanism (?) for the decline in health, but it does sound like Matt doesn't think that explanation makes the most sense.

    The mineral hypothesis resonates for me, though, so I'm certainly willing to consider it.

  24. Trollin, trollin, trollin, keep them blogs a rollin…

    Try to let go of your black and white biases for a few days. You might enjoy it. Cut out fructose AND try RBTI and see what you get.

    Then try something else: eat a bit of REAL sugar. You know, the stuff that still has minerals in it. Evaporated cane juice, raw local honey, blackstrap molasses. See how your body responds.

    It's laboratory isolated fructose that is evil, not mineral-rich sugar, IMO. That doesn't mean half your calories should come from "good" sugar, or that you're getting enough total minerals from that sugar. Use your common sense and experiment with gradual changes.

    Get your mineral levels up nice and high, and maybe you won't have to stress about sugar so much. Then when you read the writings of sugar-phobics, you can breath easy knowing that your coffee is sweetened with some nice, evaporated cane juice instead of the zero mineral stuff.

  25. Matt,
    would your materials be beneficial for those currently consulting with Challen?


  26. RobA (and Cameron),

    thank you for the response, I don’t think that this blog is fit for my multipage rants, but as soon as Matt tells me to STFU I’ll immediately obey his orders.

    I think the fact that sugar is the key factor that literally destroyed the health of native people is not a good sign. It’s possible that this all comes down to the low nutritive value of refined sugar plus the context of a poor diet, but I think there is definitely something else going on.

    Dietary fructose adversely affects mineral homeostasis in the body and suggests that high fructose intake coupled with marginal Mg an Ca intake leads to bone loss. This indicates that fructose amplifies the effect of an inadequate diet. Again, you could argue that the best way to tackle this problem is to increase the mineral content of your diet, it makes sense, yes, but is it optimal?

    The fact that fructose is a burden on the liver is also telling. If you drink a lot of liquid sugar, which is of course a stupid thing to do, you will eventually end up with a fatty liver. Perhaps you can burn it off while you’re drinking the cocacola, but if you don’t: it will take some time, but it will evnentually get you. If you don’t eat much fructose, it gets much harder to run into these problems.

    As for the AGE stuff: again, your liver has to metabolize fructose fast, otherwise it will get into the systemic circulation. The rate at which fructose is absorbed is probably relevant as well. I’m repeating myself here. The literature seems consistent: AGE products are bad news, one of the driving forces behind endothelial dysfunctioning and the general aging process. And it gets even worse when fructose enters your systemic circulation, because it causes non enzymatic glycation at a higher rate. So my “proposed mechanism” is that exceeding the amount of fructose your liver can actually process leads to a lot of fructation.

    You’ll have to understand that I’m trying to stir up some debate, and hopefully Matt will lift his arse some day, just kidding, he does a great job, I think he made a mistake that’s all.

  27. What is the deal with giving up RBTI? I have been doing it properly (with consults) for about 6 weeks and want to stop. Now I'm terrified my health is going to get worse since I have read it is better to never start than to start and stop. Any evidence of this being true Matt? You got me into this mess so help me out here! If it really is true you owe it to everyone here to make that clear before they start … I only read this (elsewhere) about 4 weeks in.

  28. Part of Matt's new package has a video about that.

    He says – if you do it and your symptoms go away, it doesn't mean you're healed, just that you're healthy enough to not experience symptoms. But you're still not healthy. So you should keep going for several months (? not sure how long is long enough) until you've gained much more health and energy, otherwise your symptoms will come back. Supposedly worse, but maybe because after you've experienced relief, they seem worse (that's my own suggestion, not Matt's). He doesn't seem to think (again my interpretation) that it will actually cause a decline in your health from where you originally started.

    Matt seems to suggest that if you're not experiencing any relief from RBTI, then you may as well stop. He didn't say that outright, but it seems to be the corollary to "if you're finding it helpful, you shouldn't stop". Maybe he'll have more to say.

  29. Dino, why do you want to stop? Just curious. Except for Dorie, we've only heard good things about RBTI, but there have to be people it doesn't work for.

  30. Am I the only one who wants to just read the material and not necessarily put it into practice? Once I can afford it I'll be buying this :)

    P.s. Yay for being technically poor! I'm in the same boat, I just do it with Canadian currency! :P

  31. Something interesting I've discovered with myself about extra fat on my body and going to bed at a decent hour; I'm too mentally stimulated.

    For over a year now I've actively been reading books and articles on the internet and blogs, etc… in an attempt to satisfying any curiosity I have about anything that pops in my mind. I've also "randomly" developed a horribly delayed circadian rhythm. I tried eliminating the computer as much as possible for a couple weeks and it helped a bit, but after the initial improvement things started to get as bad as they've ever been. About 3 weeks ago I took an observation a friend of mine made to heart.

    "You don't really have any mental down time, man."

    So, I decided to make it a point to give myself more time where I have mental downtime. Lately it's been day dreaming for most of the day and since I've done that I've lost ~7lbs and have started falling asleep earlier. It seems about every week I go to bed about a half an hour earlier. This past week I've consistently gone to bed around 1:30am which is a massive improvement over my usual 3:30am. Even listening to new music too often is enough to make me feel mentally tired now that I've started paying attention to it.

    In the past week in particular I've really started to lean out. I also find myself wanting to go on walks more and do more physical things rather than just laze about. I knew environmental factors are important, but this experience is definitely showing me how important staying away from very stimulating things in any sense, be it processed foods to too much new information.


  32. Anonymous–that 'no mental downtime' comment really sticks for me too. I don't stay up late because I turn into a pumpkin by around 10-10.30 (I get up early, though)–but I just never stop, and often I'm doing more than one thing at a time.

    Given my current frustration over lack of change in body comp despite many months of working out hard and eating as sensibly as I can, this might be a useful thing to bear in mind (haha, more mental overload)–obviously not what you meant–
    thanks so much for sharing!

  33. Matt,

    are you confident you know enough about the RBTI that you can work as a consultant?

  34. Anon- before I finished reading i wanted to say STFU!!!-lmfao!- really, i did..
    We all have had these concerns regarding fructose, it is only processed in the liver, and, wait for it- adipose issue! Now that's a big correlative factor for me… but i sure can eat the shit out of it without gaining any weight… neswayz, at the end of the day, fructose isn't as evil as you might think. Just remember, like drugs, it depends on set and setting (aka, imo, pusfa intake is a huge factor in fructose/obesity).. and give me abreak- marginal calcium/magnesium intake is correlated with bone degeneration- not fructose. Show me the studies that prove otherwise. ..plus fructose is the lowest GI sugar- great for those that worry about high GI carbs causing insulin spikes.. ;)


  35. Finally, RBTI Intro Package is what I've been waiting for. Can't wait to see what's inside this package. By the way is there any chance that there's a topic about coconut oil? just curious.

  36. @AndrewH:

    You can eat the crap out of it without gaining any weight huh? Good for you, but it doesn’t say shite about what’s going on in your liver, nothing.

    And for Christ sake, give me a break, fructose does have an impact on mineral balance:


    This is becoming a waste of time.

  37. I know everyone needs to earn money.

    I know Matt spends a lot of time and gives a lot for free with little in return.


    I thought that the only person that could do this stuff properly was Challen?

    I thought that this system had to be individually tailored by someone (only Challen) who had been doing it for donkeys years to get any kind of result?

    Not to be a negative pessimist, but Matt, how then do you expect people to get any kind of result following an ebook written by someone who as far as I am aware has only been under Challens guidance for a couple of months.

    Not to be an arsehole, I still think RBTI has some merit, it must do…

    Though this is another nod in the direction of it being a money making scheme and not about helping people.

    Like the Durianrider says (in my words), Don't follow hucksters who have plans that are shop fronts to a supplement sales business.

    "You need to remineralise, its all about the food. Na, don't eat food with nutrition, sure eat soy bacon/ hot dawgs/ pies and icecream, then come to me to get your constant needed supply of heavenly minerals."

    Take this light heartedly, I am teasing. Though I am still being serious.

    Health should be free.

  38. Matt – just emailed you about shipping of the kits supplies to Australia, and noticed that the PH and Urea stuff cannot be shipped out of the US (so it says on their website)

    I guess trying to source these things locally is going to be the best way to go?

  39. @Ela

    I wish I turned into a pumpkin at 10pm or so haha. Hell, even if I could fall asleep around midnight I'd be ecstatic. Then again, my family in general is more sensitive to stuff.

    Hopefully Matt will look into specifically how the mind affects the body rather than just lightly touching upon it.


  40. Playing off of what Lee pointed out…

    Has anyone noticed the sudden "turn of events" around here? If you look back, Matt was not only singing praises to Challen and the RBTI, but even going as far as to reffering to copycats as, and I quote, "jaggoffs."

    Suddenly, Challen is not in the picture. Matt has thrown things out to discredit Challen's work, yet, if you think about it, Matt has taken everything and attempted to make a carbon copy. All the way down to copycatting Challen's business model. Look at his pricing! And compare to Challen's.

    I think Matt found something that works, wants to make a name for himself and have an income, whether large or small.

    Is anyone else following this? Is Matt after the money? Or just after the reputation? I smell greed one way or another. Anyone else?


  41. I noticed, CandaceK.

  42. So, I'm curious, how many here work for free? Raise your hand.

    "I think Matt found something that works, wants to make a name for himself and have an income, whether large or small."

    Umm, isn't that what everyone does… or at least wants?

    "Heath should be free."

    Health IS free. Go do your own research.

    I have to say, the people who complain about Matt charging a fair price for his work (which, IMO, is worth much more!) and expect him to give everything away for free, are the greedy bastards.

  43. Anon, you said
    "Dietary fructose adversely affects mineral homeostasis in the body and [a study] suggests that high fructose intake coupled with marginal Mg an Ca intake leads to bone loss."

    That study you cited did not prove anything about fructose, coupled with marginal Mg and Ca intake, leading bone loss. Sorry, try again..

    And my bad for posting that idiotic anecdote about my experience with fructose- it was totally out of context, and meaningless.

    I don't mean to waste your time, although we are on a blog, so the deed is done. :P

    I get the impression you avoid most juices, apples, grapes, and especially dried figs like the plague, because of their free fructose levels… im sure the first humans to discover figs developed fatty liver, gout and obesity immediately.

    Are you okay with refined glucose like white bread? Do you condemn all refined sugar? What about oranges (which are loaded with vitamin C and minerals), or figs?

    What is your beef, specifically? Is it only against refined sugar, or liquid sugars, or any fructose, or the level of processing?

    FTR, I don't think Matt ever told anyone to drink a ton of HFCS or fig juice. He seems to support sugar intake coupled with a balanced diet and high levels of vitamins and minerals- this doesn't seem dangerous at all.
    Of course, all of rbti's corn oil pushing, and avoidance of saturated fats is extremely dangerous, imo.


  44. Renaee, contact Jaqueline on RBTI.info. She has helped other people get the urea chemicals in Australia.

    Peeps thinking Matt is dissing Challen. He's just pointing out that Challen is human, with human biases and foibles. He still says that Challen gets the best results.

    In his intro package Matt says that initially, and for people not too ill, he and/or Pippa can get you started. If you're not responding as well as they think you should, they'll send you on to Challen. Challen seems to be difficult to work with, and now busy with all his new clients and therefore difficult to get ahold of, so starting out with Matt is a good alternative. He's not copycatting, he's getting people started.

    What I'm getting from reading Matt's info (40$, damn, he's getting rich fast) is that you can do ok with RBTI with just basics unless you're pretty ill. Then that's where you need Challen.

    Matt's big disagreement is he does think you should eat real food over processed crap, generally speaking. Many suggest Reams was the same, and Challen's love of junk food is his own foible. Or they say that most people aren't going to be cooking food from scratch, like all of us health geeks here, and so he's trying to make it easy on the general populace. Challen isn't familiar with us WAPF/raw/paleo people – to most of his clients, Challen's suggested diet was waaay healthier than what they were used to!

    As for the supplements, I tested the brix of all the produce here – from the grocery store, from the farmer's markets, etc. It was ALL poor, or worse than poor. So get thee some supplements, because you're not getting a whole lot of nutrition from your real food.

    He and Pippa are charging no more than Challen, and often less. Yeah, Matt's making some money, but I don't think he's getting one of those nice houses in Aspen any time soon on this. It's probably just enough to cover the fact that he has no other job while he's learning all he can about RBTI and bringing it to the masses – including you and me.

    You think it's a big scam of his to make money? Don't buy his ebook. Simple enough. Although I have to say that much of what I've read and heard in his package has already been shared on this site or on the FB group – both free. Matt has simply brought it all together in a cohesive package, so you don't have to piece it all together. I pretty much already knew 95% of what he wrote, but it was scattered all over my mind in bits and pieces, much of it ignored or forgotten. Still, point is, I feel paying $40 will help me do the program properly, but you can also figure it all out for free. Greedy greedy Matt.

  45. Good point 180 regular! …communists are my pet peeve ;)

  46. Love the T-shirt…. :) And the RBTI slogan….So excellent! :) Pee party!

  47. Wow Canadace

    I run a consulting based business and i started charging fees when it became way to time consuming to help people and still provide myself with life's basic needs. I think Matt feels he can help more people laying out this business model. I certainly would not be able to help people without it. He already helps people by answering emails and comment questions on his blog which take up alot of time to keep up with the reading and careful thinking to generate answers without any compensation.

    if he was a copycat, don't you think he would have deleted all of his previous non rbti material ? and just made it all about rbi. he is just adding this to his repertoire and most likely after seeing challen decided consulting was a good idea as it makes what matt already does much more easier and effective.
    according to reader comments it appears the products are available through a third party, I would have bought a bunch in bulk and sold them through my own site as i do not have any shame in acquiring a surplus of survival needs ie : future food and shelter in the form of money. oddly enough I wish everything was free because i believe it is possible to eliminate nearly all jobs and provide a superior quality of life for everyone on the planet all for free, we just have not gotten there yet so in the meantime matt needs to eat too.

with my entrepreneurial background it's obvious to me, matt is not all about the money. He is doing very little in the way of money generation, he could easily charge for many other things as well as advertise.

    consulting guy part 1 of 2

  48. part 2 of 2

    seeing as he most likely introduced most of us to the rbti thing, shouldn't he be getting at least some of your money you are willing to invest in it's regard since he is qualified to at least show you the ropes after playing with it or 4 months. I started one business after reading a book for 3 hours and started making 200$ a day the next morning and my clients were satisfied. Now obviously i did not tell them i started yesterday but they were non the wiser nor did it affect the product.

    Personally I think he should get a cut from the people he has already sent to challen.

 180 followers are spoiled in my opinion. People complaining about matt making money make me thing of people complaining about paying to fill their tires up with air. … this is the world we live in, a money driven one. Until matt starts selling magic underwear that make peeing perfect numbers possible, I will continue to support him.


he just has some information to give his followers and deserves a little compensation for the time he invested in getting it that they themselves did not have to waste in order to get it.

    make sure you get yours matt , :) consulting guy

  49. I'm not saying matt can't make money, I don't think it's right to steal what someone else put together. Correct me if I'm wrong, lorelei, but beyond being morally reprehensible, I believe it's illegal. Anyone heard about the coca cola case?

    Does matt have permission to sell challen's work? To sell "challen's program?" I highly doubt that.

    I am for capitalism, but not dishonesty, and certainly not criminal behavior. I had respect for matt. This had put a big question mark over his ethics, and personally, I won't pay someone for something that isn't theirs to sell.


  50. "Like the Durianrider says (in my words), Don't follow hucksters who have plans that are shop fronts to a supplement sales business."

    god, duranrider is such a fucking imbecile it is mind boggling sometimes… ok that was uncalled for.. the devil just takes control over my fingers sometimes.. missed ur comments, HawaiiGirl- good points!

    Matt is providing an amazing service- take it or leave it. free market 101 bitches!!! (been watching alot of It's Always Sunny, recently) anyway, others have said all this more eloquently so i'll stop beating this carcass.. ;) thanks everyone! :)

  51. Plus I think Matt deserves money just for having lived in Wheeling, don't you guys? He should have gotten people to sponsor him (just like for a walkathon) – Sponsor me now! Only a dollar a day for every day that I can take living in Wheeling!

  52. “how many here work for free”

    Is selling quackery a decent job?

    “go do your own research”

    The problem is that a lot of people don’t have the time, nor the academic background to root through the medical literature. They’ll have to rely on health authorities, some blogs or maybe some health gurus. That’s where people like matt come into play. By distributing misinformation, which is a result of his own lack of getting the basics of human physiology straight, matt is only confusing people.

    We’ve been arse probed on multiple occasions by public health authorities. He doesn’t have to make things worse…

  53. (new?) Anon, if you really support intellectual property that much you can't support capitalism (private property)- they are completely mutually exclusive.. considering Matt's behavior as criminal is totally laughable, ridiculous and hilarious. not to strap us in and launch us into the stratosphere towards the OT vacuum… maybe even the into center of the OT sun at this rate.

  54. Matt is NOT selling Challen's work. He's put together a book about everything you could find for free on the internet. He DOES NOT include any of Challen's 6 gazillion rules for how to do RBTI. It's an incredibly simple beginner's guide. It does not teach you at all how to be a consultant or even how to move your numbers yourself. So no, he's not selling Challen's work.

    Even Matt says all he knows is beginner stuff… anything complicated has to go to Challen. He's promoting Challen constantly.

    Besides, much of what Challen is doing came from Reams. Is Challen stealing? Or Beddoe or any of the other RBTI people out there? They ALL got their info from Reams, but they charge…

    So, would you be happy if Matt were giving out Challen's upper level books for free? Because that would be stealing.

  55. Does matt have a contact giving him permission to sell challen's work?

    P.S. I'm a business owner myself. If someone came to my business and did this, I'd sue them. And I would also press criminal charges.


  56. Dear God, anon who is worried about Matt giving us misinformation. If people have to rely on others to make their decisions because they're too lazy to think critically, that's their fault. The world is full of uneducated idiots who jump on whatever bandwagon is out there. Matt is presenting you with ideas. He's not forcing you to do it. YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT YOU DO WITH YOUR OWN BODY. Plain and simple. I gained a bunch of weight RRARFing. Is it Matt's fault? Did he force me to eat that way? No. I read his ideas and made a conscious decision to try it. Just like I made a decision before that to eat raw based on other info. Or low carb. Or SAD. It's my bloody choice what I put in my mouth.

    It's not like the government, who THINK they know what's best for us, banning raw milk, banning trans fats, banning raw almonds, etc… And yet the vast majority of the population do what the government says because they're sheeple. I'm pretty sure anybody who comes to Matt's site at least tries to think for themselves, and if they don't, it's NOT Matt's fault.

    RESPONSIBILITY for yourself is so scary. Sheesh.

  57. Is matt giving challen a cut from this? This is afterall his idea and business

  58. Candace, if you're so worried about it, go to HeavenlyWater.com, get the contact number for Challen, and call him yourself.

    Challen knows Matt is doing this. I haven't personally heard Challen say it was ok one way or the other, so you can call him and find out for yourself.

    Be proactive if it bothers you that much instead of just complaining.

  59. Well put Lorelei (both posts)
    Give me a break, (new?) Anon… be specific or stfu (wow i never thought id get to use that more than once in this blog).

    Will you anons just click name/URL and give yourself a stage name so we can have a decent conversation?! it is irritating for me not to be able to distinguish half of the authors posting here..

    CandaceK, where does he sell Challen's work? personally, the thought of suing someone, and pressing criminal charges for "stealing" information from a book they bought really disgusts me..

  60. I did Lorelei, and they did not sound as though they were for it. That could be a problem.


  61. Candace,

    I can appreciate your perspective as a business owner, but your viewpoint seems a bit skewed.

    Challen doesn't have a patent or trademark on anything. RBTI is available for anyone who wants to learn. Carey Reams is dead. There are hundreds (maybe thousands) of RBTI consultants, and many of them sell their own published materials, just as Matt is doing.

    Matt isn't "stealing" anything. If someone writes a book about herbalism, are they "stealing" from other herbalists? If someone writes a book about vitamins, are they "stealing" from nutritionists? If someone writes a book about diet, are they "stealing" from dieticians?

  62. Thank you Jung.

    And again, Matt is not selling anything that is Challen's proprietary work. It is only the most basic of info, which is free everywhere on the net.

    BTW, Candace, you managed to get thru and talk to Challen in only 4 minutes? That's pretty impressive! It takes most people several hours to get a call back. Wow, I totally believe you.

  63. I understand there is no stealing of a general idea, but it seems matt is SELLING "CHALLEN'S PROGRAM." The way Challen does it. I don't think Matt can go there and take something no one else does, and sell it. And from the book I have that I purchased from Challen, it is copyrighted. And intelectual property is protected by the law.

    JMO, maybe I'm wrong. Don't be angry at me for stating the obvious. Seems as there are others pointing out the same thing, so I am not the only one


  64. Lorelei, I spoke with the the receptionist during my appointment yesterday. I have nothing to prove to you, but you are more than welcome to call yourself and verify. I have nothing against you personally and not sure why you are being hostile with me.


  65. well Matt certainly isn't stealing anything from Challen (other than the time he prolly paid for)! He's selling Matt's work. :P

    Challen can go cry himself a river, distill his tears, and add some HFCS and the lemon life threw him for all I care! ;)

  66. Andrew, I don't understand your hostility. Why are you angry with Challen when it is apparent Challen is the source of the program helping so many people, and the source of the program Matt saw fit to write an entire book on. The source of Matt's current income?


  67. and is reams stealing from jesus ? :P

    90 percent of business is stealing… does thrifty sue budget and avis for the rental car idea or vice versa

    does mcdonalds sue burger king for coming out with a competing chicken sandwich or a mcgriddle wannabe

    stealing is the american way! just like capitalism is. do we pay rent to native americans or pay them every time we use the Constitution a canoe or barbecue sauce or petrolium jelly which they used for centuries before modern times. meanwhile a large number of them live in 4th world conditions.
    should matt live a 3rd world lifestyle because health should be free.

    I dont even want to do RBTI but i feel like giving matt something for the time i spend reading here.

    fuck laws, steal everything, get yours while you can cuz Book of Eli lifestyle is coming anyways.

    I sure wonder what that does to the numbers though eating the other other white meat.

  68. Andrew H

    what is
    OT ? you said ot sun etc..

  69. Wow. Matt, is this what you are about? Is this what this website supports? I'd surely like an answer from Matt.


  70. I'm serious, Matt do you condone criminal activity like some of your followers apparently do?


  71. By the way guys, your opinion or not, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if something goes down here.


  72. ELI- bwahahaha! good one! and way to preach the good word, kinda. OT means off topic… although if Matt incorporated some sort of scientology thing maybe id have to change my 'cronyms. ;)

    CandiceK, I'm certainly not hostile against Challen, just the current US IP regulatory climate, it wreaks havoc and destruction throughout the peaceful marketplace. …again cruisin a bit ot… not looking for a bruisin


  73. Candace those are my own ideas and opinions not matts.

    the only crimes I recognize are rape and unjustified murder. everything else only protects a small part of the population. Poverty is created, broke people make the best thieves.

    your view of what consists of a crime would surely be different if you lived in a different reality and ever had to steal simply to eat after not eating for days and watching your parents go out for jobs daily for months on end. you start to ask your self who decided who gets to own what grows out of the ground and decide who owns water. aquafina and desani think they do, people thought it was crazy to pay for that at one time.

  74. CandiceK, I haven't got my copy yet, but what, does he plagiarize large swaths of Challen's words or something? Did Challen not consent to all of videos which have been up on this site for weeks? I know in AZ you can record any conversation you have with a wire and not tell the other person, totally legally.

    Basically, what did Matt do, specifically, that is wrong? What do you think is gonna "do down"? Is Challen gonna challenge Matt to a duel or something?

    And FTR, IP is totally criminal, imho… Monsanto is a good example of an (evil) IP cartel.. :( I take the IP issue very seriously.. dont mean to sound harsh.

  75. OMG so anon, your saying I should be able to walk into the grocery store and walk out with my weekly groceries. What about the farmers that grow the food? The truckers who deliver the food? The grocers that stock the food? Should they not be paid? The people who grow the cattle? The people who have to kil and cut them up? Should they be taken from?

  76. uuuggghhhh…. more anons?- what are you talking about, annon? I agree w/ omfg.

    ..also, we are officially in OuTer space, guys- hold your breath. :)

  77. anon anon we go! ;)

  78. Thank you Andrew. Can you say WOW?

    I mean my eyes are like this right now. 0_0

    I would not want to be that guys neighbor.

  79. Candace, I really don't think you understand what Matt is selling. I'm not hostile, but you seem determined to stir up trouble where there is none.

    I've purchased Matt's package, and it is no more than what you can already find for free on the internet. It is not "Challen's" program. It does not tell you anything more than the basics of how to get started with RBTI. I could not move my own numbers or help others based on what Matt has put together. And in this supposedly stolen info, Matt gives all props to Challen and suggests that people with real illness should work with Challen only. So Matt is sending way more money Challen's way than he could ever "steal" from him. I mean, how many new clients does Challen have because of Matt? Yup, Matt sure is stealing.

    I keep repeating this, but… you obviously want to think what you want. Maybe you should buy Matt's package so you can compare for yourself.

    And what the hell, just cause some random commenter suggested that it's fine to steal, you think Matt condones it? What kind of logic is that? If your neighbor advocates killing children, should I infer you condone it? After all, you live next to them, you must condone their behaviour! What a stupid assumption. You're being completely hysterical. In the crazy sense.

  80. Wow, so anyways I'd like to comment on this AMAZING NEW PROGRAM MATT HAS UNVEILED TO US WITH HIS NEW EBOOK….

    Matt, I know you don't claim to know everything and are just providing a workable guide, but, you hinted at something that you never followed up on when you said:

    "Someone with an eating disorder for example might have a blackout after eating a big meal due to the rapid fall of sugar available to their brains (not to be confused with blood sugar levels per se, which often move in opposite directions as the systemic sugar levels as the adrenal glands activate to try and increase the sugar available to the system)."

    Does this mean that blood sugar readings from traditional tests, such as diabetics use, does not reflect the actual glucose available to cells/brains? Or is this simply referring to how blood glucose swings so erraticly between high and low in a sick person that such reading would be worthless? I ask because it's important to the program to get to know your blood sugar trends throughout the days, in order to eliminate the "peaks and valleys". But what if you don't urinate often enough? Do you forceably drink some water and squeeze some out? Wouldn't the mere act of drinking water change the amount of glucose that would normally be available, thus giving an inaccurate picture?

    Have you treated your mother or any family members with this yet?? I can't wait to try it out on my parents.

    And also, why does it have to be such a sudden shift? Why not just ease into it? I don't think pushing yourself to the point of getting sick or having strange health problems is not good under any circumstance, as you describe when first getting on the RBTI program. (That was laughable to hear Reams actually had a party whenever someone vomited.) This aspect could be unnecessarily scaring people away.

    Just to be clear, is it Challen you're referring to in this sentence?: "I'm not sure the guy will even send me supplements next time I order after calling me up and accusing me of 'blasphemy' the other day and insulting me by saying that 'all the things that you don't understand are so voluminous that I don't even know where to begin.' " Is he really that pissed?? (hahaha)

    And lastly, another surprise– the body "manufactures" alcohol????

  81. Andrew you and I need to have our own blog without crazy people. At least people more crazy than us. They're coming out of the woodwork today!

    I'm going to go have a life now, because this is degenerating fast.

  82. Renaee, if you missed this amongst all the crazy people, contact Jaqueline at RBTI.info – she knows how to get the chemicals in Australia.

  83. And before anybody thinks Matt is ignoring their comments, he's busy driving around the SW and Cali the next several days, so he's probably not even bothering to see what you have so thoughtfully written here…

  84. …im hindsight, when I said i'm "cruisin' a bit OT" it was a hilarious tom cruise scientology pun.

    The PUNisher

    Lorelei, I know, right? But don't worry- Mr. J. Bond is here now- he will take care of everything. He's the genius who turned me on to 180 in the first place..

    Mr. Bond, great questions!!! I'm probably doing yardwork in your neck of the woods sometime soon—can I pretty please come over sometime and check out your e-copy?! im hella exited now, dude- ill give you a call! :D

  85. "I don't think pushing yourself to the point of getting sick or having strange health problems is not good under any circumstance"

    (–change one of those negatives…)

  86. @ Lorelei

    How are you feeling today? How is your Brix?

  87. If Matt is a thief, then Challen is a thief, along with all other RBTI practitioners. And while we're at it, we could call most all business owners thieves, as most use the same business model (way of doing business) and products as businesses similar to theirs, because it works. That's the way free enterprise works.

    Hmm, I wonder from where Candace got her/his business model?

    RBTI stands for Reams Biological Theory of Ionization. The RBTI is Carey Reams' work, not Challen's. Challen simply learned it and practices it. Just as many others do.

    Carey Reams, before he died, said that he wanted the RBTI to be freely available to the public to learn, practice, teach, and further develop. If you don't believe that, contact his widow, she will tell you the same.

    Challen has been practicing for many years now, as well as many other RBTI practitioners. And now (thanks to Matt!!), Challen has way more business than he can handle all of a sudden. I'm sure he has no problem with Matt picking up his slack.

    And lucky for us, Matt has decided to practice the RBTI. He is not stealing nor selling Challen's work. Matt put what he has learned from his RBTI research thus far in a package for a very reasonable price, just like Challen did with his own(albeit much higher priced) RBTI materials. Any of us could do the same if we so choose. The RBTI does not belong to Challen alone. It belongs to all of us. And that's the way Dr. Reams wanted it.

    Be honest about what you're really upset about. Do you really give a rat's ass about Challen and his intellectual property rights? Perhaps people are just pissed because Matt isn't giving his away for free?

    You could always just buy Challen's over-priced, outdated, poorly written, confusing materials and consult only with Challen.

    Some of us just prefer Matt's materials and his way of explaining the RBTI.

    To each their own.

  88. @Hawaiigirl

    Thanks for that – will check it out – nearly did miss it among all the other crap…

  89. on a closer look – looks like most people recognize the value in matts work when they see it, and just a few anons who are plugging up the works!

  90. "Some of us just prefer Matt's materials and his way of explaining the RBTI."

    …and are happy to pay him for it.

  91. @AnrewH about fructose,

    Sorry about my previous comment, I overreacted a little. I’ll try to explain what my gutfeeling is on fructose.

    NAFL is an exceedingly common health problem that has a very harmful impact on millions of people around the globe. This is a very dangerous type of fat accumulation, because it leads to inflammation in the liver and actually damages other organs as well.
    I’m not lecturing you here, I’m trying to be as specific as possible.

    Few people that are seriously involved in the field of medicine doubt that fructose is related to NAFL. The damage that fructose can do is highly dose and duration-dependent, so you won’t get it from one milkshake and it won’t happen overnight, it’s something that happens over decades of over consuming it, conceivably even from more natural products like fruit or honey etc.
    My gutfeeling tells me that this is also a matter of dosage, and that it’s indeed possible to break your liver with apples. I don’t have any hard data to support this, but it’s certainly how ‘people like Yudkin’ felt about it.
    So in practice, what how do I deal with this? I usually eat one piece of fruit a day, which seems ridiculously orthorexic, but has helped me overcome a lot of concentration problems and ‘brain-fogs’. There is nothing wrong with fruit, I suspect it’s just not ok to eat the crap out of it.
    I don’t care that much about the refining process of starches, like white-bread, as long as it doesn’t become a staple food. You just eat some empty calories, but it is probably not a big problem in the context of an otherwise nutritious diet.
    But the message I seem to be getting on this blog sounds like: yeah, we already know this stuff, we’ve heard that, done that, we’re so goddamn BORED, let’s eat the crap out of fructose, disregarding all the overwhelming data supporting the fructose-hypothesis.

  92. I could be wrong and stated that. Perhaps I'm thrown by the sudden seperation and apparent "dogging" from the both of them.

    Sorry for bringing morals to the scene.


  93. OMG … yes
    one day we could all live in such a world where ghettos and poverty as well as truckers and farmers along with all other jobs that exist solely to provide income to perpetuate consumerism will cease to exist. Those that were required to do indentured servitude for food in our time will be able to get their weekly groceries for free like everyone else if we all start working together, that is, or else its Book of Eli mode.

    75% of what we grow gets thrown out some where from the farm to the kitchen table due to it not being profitable. why is that 75% not simply free to begin with. Many countries have free health care why not free nutrition to prevent sickness in the first place. Using technology wisely, nobody would need to truly "work" maybe labors of love but surely not have to be a fry guy at Mickey D's or a postal workers when we have email etc.

    one countries crime is another's right, look at thepiratebay .org, it is not illegal in sweden but the american movie industry calls it stealing. Stealing is a point of view. just like seen here : ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5X8W7MgbhM&feature=player_embedded ) its all just fear of change. One day people in the future will laugh at us for throwing hungry people in jail simply because we created an economic system which creates thieves in the first place.

    I meant steal everything in the context of intellectual property. FTR I don't steal from neighbours I have not needed to steal in a very long time from anyone. when someone steals from me I don't get mad or afraid like you. I would gladly have offered it to them if they asked before they stole it. I don't see the logic in stealing from someone only to create the same burden I have that causes the need to steal in the first place when wal-mart would be a much better target. :) have you ever went above the speed limit or watched a youtube video where an artist receives no money …we are all criminals somehow.

  94. fructose anon person

    I have experimented myself with the idea that fructose is problematic but I also think that the fiber in the fruit plays a role in not getting a NAFL.

    also you mentioned a threshold of fructose the liver can handle. I think the lemonade ( which in my understanding is diluted) would not be a significant risk.

  95. Anon-re-fructose, Fructose is definitely correlated with NAFLD, and some people suspect a correlation with gout as ATP can be apparently converted to uric acid when fructose is broken down in the liver. Again the fact that, when the liver is overloaded with fructose it is sent to adipose tissue to be broken down gives me the impression that excess fructose probably causes obesity to a degree.

    My loose theory on the issue is that pusfas, by slowing metabolism and liver efficiency, cause adipose tissue to be created when fructose is consumed in excess in order for it to be broken down efficiently. The study you cited earlier was preformed on subjects who consumed various "western diets", probably high in pusfas, and low in vitamins (i dont have access to full txt versions, right now). This might enhance fructose's negative effects on mineral homeostasis.

    When fructose is consumed in a 1:1 ratio with glucose it is easier to digest. People with fructose intolerances can't eat figs or hfcs, but they can eat table sugar for this reason.

    Anyhow, I'm fairy certain that a daily glass of OJ, some maple syrup, or some figs will not give you NAFL (Native Americans consumed maple syrup, among other sources of fructose, for thousands of years before Europeans arrived).

    Fructose is dose dependent, and i speculate that pusfa intake is a factor in developing NAFL as well. Sugar can be safely included as part of any balanced diet which is high in vitamins and minerals, imo.


  96. ELI, you should move to Cuba- they already have "free" food programs… you'll get plenty of vitamin D too from working in the fields all day for no pay. ;)

    FTR i agree completely about "stealing" IP! :) …communism is my pet peeve, though..

  97. I <3 consumerism!!! Can't wait till pay day so i can shell it all out for tons of delicious foood and frivolous material goods!!! ..and Sensei's book, I guess… :D

  98. thanks andrew but I'm well aware of cuba's lifestyle no thanks what I'm talking about does not exist yet.

    im talking about everyone living with the quality of life that only the top 5 or less percent currently enjoy in the united states. free to all, no work in the fields is needed.

  99. This might not be the place to debate some utopian technocratic dream world, but in the real world people have to make choices based on using scarce resources wisely- that is what capitalism and money are all about. In a dream world of unlimited resources your idea would work perfectly. The Big Rock Candy Mountain range comes to mind.. If you find it- let us know… we LOVE candy around here..

    Also, i hope the NAFL doesn't touchdown upon, or sack any of you nice bloggers. ;)

  100. ..of course, incidentally, you could always get the money for nothing and the chicks for free, by playing guitar on the mtv… not to leave a litany of posts, here..

  101. Re Durianrider

    That guy charges a huge amount of money for teaching people how to eat tons of fruit and drink gallons of water. Wait, he also troubleshoots their program… telling them to eat more fruit and drink more water if anything is not going as planned… So I don't think he is the person to quote when it comes to snake oil sellers.

  102. Hans, Lmao! I agree wholeheartedly!

  103. It is very well written post submit here.I feel very nice to visit on this site.

  104. The video of Matt takin' the piss outta Durian was a bit embarrassing. If you laid out tons of colourful, nutrient, mineral etc dense fruit and vegetables next to the baked beans, hawt dawgs, semi skimmed milk, pies and icecream that Matt was suggesting along with the only exercise being the milk jug curl. I dunno, to me, it is quite clear which one is a load of bollocks and one that just seems more and more like common sense everyday.

    It just feels a bit hokey pokey watching Matt bound around every dietary angle, to drop us little RBTI nuggets for a couple months, with such little experience to release an expensive ebook based on Challens basics. Then you will need to buy the tools, then you will need to consult, then you will probably need to go to Challen, then you will need to get Heavenly supplements, consult some more, supplement, consult etc.

    Having said that, I believe in the RBTI and I believe that Matt will someday figure this all out, that Matt will certainly go all out to help as many people as he can with no other agenda and that Matt will one day earn what he is worth.

    Looking forward to it, don't ever give up and good luck Matt.

  105. -Lorelei aka Hawaiigirl "It is only the most basic of info, which is free everywhere on the net."

    Which is my point, so how is it worth $59.95? It is not our duty to pay Matt just because we like him and decided to pay Challen a visit.

    I certainly do not think Matt should give the book away for free, and certainly think he should get paid for what he does well. My comment about health being free still stands and it was not a comment towards Matt himself.

    Somebody mentioned "Carey Reams, before he died, said that he wanted the RBTI to be freely available to the public to learn, practice, teach, and further develop."…which has quite clearly not happened.

  106. Durianrider. If at all anything, he is funny, charismatic and full of energy. And to give him credit, give him a chance; I reckon he is more right than most people will outrightedly admit. In years to come I reckon most of the "paleo" bloggers will be advising a high raw fruit/veg low fat, supplemented with some animal products, similar to castlegrok, Denise Minger. Guaranteed.

    When you see Durianriders videos you can see he is doing something right, his message never differs, he is confident in his opinion. I never feel like he is trying to sell you anything other than what he believes in. His heart is definitely in the right place and it is clear that really all he wants is truly to get people fit and healthy. Like he says you cant sell fruit and water, he has nothing to sell. Maybe he does do personal consultation, if he does cool, it don't ever feel like you need to. He gives everything he has, and realistically his approach boils down to some of the most simple common sense around.

  107. Ok read my comments in order of 2,3,1. Getting the message through here was a struggle.

  108. I read your blog thanks for share information……

    spring dentists

  109. Douchian rider right ? not.
    I 've got one letter and one number for you

    B12 : fruits got none homie !

  110. ELI, LMAO- yea DOUCHEian rider indeed! :D

    Lee, Durianrider sells a religion- veganism, plus he never uses anything close to science or common sense to make his points. He prefers ad hominem attacks and long-winded grammatically indecipherable rants over reason or common sense… long story short he is an angry imbecile with probably a 3rd grade education- I'm sure his b12 deficiencies are the root of his irrational rage.. he also gets a b12 injection monthly- how natural and holistic!

    Don't ever compare Matt Stone's amazing work to durianrider's litany of garbage… i find it a bit offensive… thanks, ;)

    And how can you really expect Matt not to charge for this, Lee? It makes no sense. no one is making you buy anything- Matt is providing a service (obviously, or nobody would ever pay for it). Why does this bother you?


  111. last couple of thoughts–staple to last post.

    Lee said: "so how is it worth $59.95?" -that is subjective value, my friend, some people value all their time more than $60… not to mention that Matt is a great researcher, and would do a better job than someone attempting to scrap it all together on their own…. basically he is providing an amazing service, which, thank God, is available for people to take or leave.

    Also- fructose anon, you should go to durianrider's site…except science is not allowed- you'd get excommunicated immediately. ;)

  112. Sensei, i forgot to mention (and if im posting too much-sorry-, just do that spiritual apparition thing and give me what for; i should be in deep meditation around 3:45 today- you have to work out the time zones) your witty comments earlier, made me bite my tongue- and cheek! i have to heal before i can make any more jokes…

  113. Matt,

    you forgot the sourdough in the no-no list methinks!

  114. I think its strange and bordering on voodoo where Matt states blood sugar is not what RBTI interprets.Challen tells people to suck on pure sugar if the BRIX drops below a certain number.Why make stuff seem mystical is all I am asking.Like its purpose is to push people towards this wizard of the RBTI.If you want stable BS then just eat low carb…..BAM perfectly stable BS.

  115. @Andrew: I agree with you wholeheartedly that for Durianrider, veganism is a religion and his zealotry over 80/10/10 is a wee bit too much for the free world. I've met him and he acts like a typical fundamentalist *fill-in-the-blank* (as in, at base, fundamentalists are all the same, despite their religion).

    But I do have to say that for a lot of others veganism doesn't resemble a religion in any fashion. I have never heard of it described as such myself.

    As for the B12 thing…well, there's so many things that aren't natural about 80/10/10 in the first place. But it's not the only extreme diet where B12 is an issue. Apparently the paleo folks have issues with this, which I learned from one of the paleo blogs. I think B12 is something that is still misunderstood to a large degree.

  116. Is the RBTI intro package worth $60? Well, let's see…

    Presume you only earn $10/hr. In which case, $60 is 6 hours of your time.

    If you think you can put together all the info Matt has put into his package with the same amount of clarity and organization (and humor!) in less than six hours, then it's a ripoff.

    If you think it would take you around six hours, then it's a fair and equitable trade. You need to decide if your time or your money is more valuable to you.

    If you think it would take you 8, 10, or more hours to come up with a similar product, then it's a bargain and you should snap it up – presuming you want the info in the first place!

    The more you earn per hour, the bigger the bargain. You decide.

    Another way to look at it is ask yourself if it is in equal value to you as a nice dinner (lunch!) out with your sweetie.

    My guess is it took Matt way more than six of his hours to put it all together, never mind the research, etc. To me it's worth it to have everything laid out in a logical, concise, and humorous way.

  117. Andrew,

    You may be right about the combo of PUFA and fructose being the eventual culprit. These things still need to be tested (mice models excepted).

    I think high PUFA will hit you double-hard, but it doesn’t mean fructose is of the hook. It’s kind of like arguing for one devil over the other: you want to get you guts pierced, or a gunshot through the lungs? One might not definitively kill you, but combine them together…

    As for fructose and mineral homeostasis: I admit that they usually don’t control for Pufa intake and how meticulous you have to be in doing these experiments. My take away is that on the long-term a high fructose diet may adversely impact bone health. I think this is a problematic scenario, since it’s the real rage among children to drink out of juice boxes.

    As for Durianrider: one could argue that the relation between BMI and mortality rates is U-shaped. I guess we all know at what end of the spectrum Durianrider is. He perpetuates this “I’m so skinny, and therefore healthy” meme. Being skinny says absolutely nothing about your health, you could be skinny and partition fat on the wrong places, I’d rather have a little belly.

    Eli: Maybe prepoop plays a significant role. I won’t be too optimistic about the results… Again, quantity is relevant as well.

  118. Ha. Judging from the articles on Challen's website, it would seem that he's fond of telling people they don't know anything about anything. Looks like Matt was just next in line. I am curious about the blasphemy though. Did he slander Carey Reams?

  119. btw, been wondering if you're going to talk about RBTI at the WAPF conference, Matt. Very interested to hear what kind of response you get if this is the plan.

  120. Jeeeeeez….back off the fruitarian as its silly.No I will not ever eat an all fruit diet but Durianrider looks healthier than Matt or Pippa or the wizard.To think that guy is unhealthy is crazy stuff.

  121. Challen is pretty opinionated (he even got on my case a bit about my religion). But, I am paying him to be opinionated- at least about RBTI. Then, it is up to me to follow his advice. So far, I have followed most- but not all- of his advice, and I am feeling a LOT better already. I wouldn't want him to be wishy-washy about this stuff.

  122. I should clarify that the religion thing came up because Challen told me that he has seen a lot of people who go on crazy diets or restrictions for religious reasons and then get sick. Heck, it doesn't even have to be a religion. I felt that way listening/following David Wolfe or Atkins or WAPF or….or…or…

  123. Anon Re: Low carb diets solving unstable blood sugar.

    I was prescribed a low carb diet and went quickly (in 3 months) from having some relatively mild sugar instability to having to eat every hour to try to grab 15 minutes of feeling stable before crashing again. RBTI is swiftly solving that for me. I don't think the low carb thing works for everyone. I have read that it is really just a crutch. It does nothing to help your body heal the reason it can't metabolise sugar.

  124. Lorelei – to answer your question: after 6/7 weeks I decided I don't want to follow such an obsessive eating plan – even if it 'heals' me in 2 or 3 years' time. The drinking plan is obsessive, inconvenient and freakish, the testing becomes obsessive (forgive word repetition!) and the huge lunch small dinner thing is unsociable and is uncomfortable – stuffed in the afternoon and empty in the evening. The whole give it up and you will get worse thing and the obsessive feel of it give me a voodoo feeling (someone else just used that word so its not just me) about it that I don't want to build my life around (which is what RBTI has you do as do many other eating plans but this one is the worst in that sense of anything I have ever tried). I think the whole 'remineralisation' concept is very seductive – I fell for it. Further, having two small daughters I don't want them to see me eating a few vegetables at dinner time – especially since given the school day it is impossible to give them a big lunch and have them eat similarly – I think the healthiest thing I can give them is a relaxed attitude to wholesome unprocessed mealtime food. Further I experienced more blood sugar lows in the morning than I have over the last couple of years – almost daily in other words and needless to say suffered one of my menstrual migraines which I didn't need Challen to say was caused by low blood sugar – I already knew that and had been avoiding them well with a Peat (plus white starch) approach. Plus I might puke if I see another lemon. These last 3 things would be attributed to 'healing' issues by RBTI and perhaps they are but coupled with my earlier points I just don't want to pursue it. I think if I was terribly ill (perhaps I am – but Challen didn't let on!) I would commit to it – I'm not saying it doesn't work in the long term perhaps it does – but for my issues I think there must be a less obsessive religious (not in the God sense of the word) way to go – I'm going to keep looking anyway!
    On another note there are things I will definitely take away from this – having a large breakfast – having small amounts of sweetened water throughout the morning (not fruit juice – like you I hate the stuff) rather than whole glasses of plain water and I must admit I rather like distilled water so am still going to keep buying that – although don't people who drink hard water live longer than others (I suppose they don't know about those who drink distilled water not many of those freaks around haha)? Giving up any religion is hard and I have all the stuff in my head so I might avoid the nono foods for a while just until I can relax a bit more about it although there was really only one I consumed frequently. Anyway, I could go on but I don't want to bore you.
    Do I remember correctly that you tried progesterone? Could you give me the details of what you did and its effectiveness and whether you still take it. I'm thinking of toying with it since my migraines are definitely hormonal. Perhaps I could get your email from Matt since this is off topic to discuss – I would appreciate it if you feel you can add anything.

  125. @Dino: thanks for your candour about RBTI. It's great to hear feedback, good or 'bad'. Just my two cents: I don't mind hearing you and Lorelei discuss the progesterone thing. It may be OT for this thread but not for this blog in general. I think a lot of the women who read this blog are experiencing hormone related issues.

  126. Dino,

    I appreciate your comments as well. I'm still open to RBTI, and may soon give it more of a shot, but I share some of your sentiments. I'm in a funny place geographically right now and my food access is not great, so I find it tough to both avoid junk (plenty at the nearest supermarket [ten miles away!] ) and eat a diverse diet as the RBTI suggests.

    But as a brewer and fermenter, and lover of potatoes (thanks Matt!), adherence is tough. Agreed that the drinking schedule is insane, and that the idea of remineralization is seductive. If only I could do the whole program for a couple of years, I'd be heathy forever and ever! Or maybe not. It's a leap of faith, and one a bit too tough for me to swallow altogether. I find it hard to mortgage current gustatory pleasure for the alleged promise of future wellness.

    In my world, I think there are many paths to health, just as there are many paths to god, or whatever. You find the one that suits you, that resonates, that compels you and is inherently motivating, and follow it, maybe with a guide who you trust and have confidence in. It probably is not sustainable long term to do stuff you really don't like, even if does does improve some biomarkers.

    That said, I think giving it a fair shot, if it appeals, is totally reasonable, and on the surface of it, that sort of diversity of food probably won't steer you too far wrong.

    Also, anyone see the most recent Wise Traditions journal. Apparently, certain types of pork preparation stop the funky response among participants' live blood analyses. I wonder if RBTI numbers would bear this out as well…

  127. Rob

    Nope. All pork is bad.

  128. @Anonymous pork (will you _please_ give yourself some sort of handle!) – that may be so, but I still don't understand why.

    Not all pork- eating people are at death's door, and saying it is "bad" because it affects the numbers is circular reasoning. No-one has given an acceptable response to the question asked months ago as to why those numbers and ratios in particular (out of an infinite number) are the "perfect numbers" (even/especially divine inspiration must have a rationale), nor has anyone given any data about long-term effects of the regime, good or bad. Again, this was a question posed some time ago and avoided. Curious minds would like some answers.

  129. (Keeps getting deleted what gives?!)


    I don't think Matt, or anyone, knows for sure. That's why you haven't gotten an answer. Some things are taken for granted for the purpose of seeing whether this practice is effective. The justification isn't circular so much as after the fact. If the numbers go toward the desired direction *and* individuals feel better, then we conclude that eating foods that send it the opposite direction is 'bad,' because it stops individuals from feeling better.

    There's some speculation from commenter AS that perhaps the magic equation that Reams said was divinely inspired might have come from simply observing patients and working with people, noticing that they did best when their numbers shifted toward here, but because of his religious notions, he attributed it all to god's revelation to him.

    As for heathy cultures eating pork, yes they exist. But that's working from of a different frame of reference than Matt is. He's argued on several occasions that *maintaining* health might require a different strategy than *regaining* health. For many, including some commenters here, eating a traditional diet was not enough to restore well-being. RBTI is an intervention aimed specifically at helping people in this position, because it attempts to fortify the constitution (through remineralization) to such a degree that perhaps healthy traditional humans experienced.

    Matt offered the metaphor of a see-saw to describe how remineralization might work. If you have low reserves, it's as if you have someone light-weight on one or both ends. Someone new jumps on to one side and the swing is likely to be pronounced and disruptive(these are the avoid foods). But if you have a thousand people on either side (you're adequately mineralized), throwing one more body on either side,is unlikely to disturb equilibrium much, if at all.

    As for long term effects, we have some commenters who've given longer term feedback, but largely in this arena, we don't have it. Writing and consulting about it is in part an effort to create such a database. You can of course decline to participate if you don't feel comfortable with it, but don't hold Matt responsible for not having something I think he's clearly acknowledged he doesn't have: a complete long term sample population establishing RBTI's efficacy.

    Anon- baiting? Anyway, pork is not always bad in RBTI, but bad if/when it makes the numbers go away from optimal. Practitioners would say it all depends on the numbers.

  130. Thank you for the reasoned answer (and reasonable answer), Rob. I don't hold Matt responsible for not having any records – after all he's only been involved in this thing for a few months.

    However, the protocol is years' old so there must be some anecdotes/examples of survivors, or miracles of recovery, yet this group has seen no-one come forward to say "I did this 10/15/ 30 years ago, never felt better and would recommend it for…" or something similar. I work in the natural health field and have not come across this protocol until this year, which to me means there must be something about it not generally applicable.

    I personally won't be doing RBTI because it won't mesh with my personal life, and my health isn't bad enough for a last ditch effort. However, I find our discussions incredibly fascinating and have loved the learning that has come out of Matt's endeavour.

  131. Rob

    Not baiting

    Yes, pork is ALWAYS bad in the RBTI. It ALWAYS makes the numbers go bad. It ALWAYS causes energy loss, regardless of how it is prepared. Anyone who tells you different is not actually practicing the RBTI.

    Perhaps you should read reams book. You might have a lot of questions answered. He actually spent 7 years trying to prove there was a way pork could be ok. IT NEVER WAS. READ THE BOOK CHOOSE Life or Death. You *MIGHT* learn something.


  132. Annette, the reason no one does is because most of the people around here are pretty rude, and no one wants to deal with that.

  133. Anonymous- Fair enough. That's different from what I've heard elsewhere, though, that for some people, pork seems to be fine. A very small number, perhaps, but some. 'Why guess when you can know?' is the tag, and it all depends on the numbers.

    And hey, I don't dispute that in even the vast majority of cases, that may be the case, or that Reams tried real hard to figure out how it might be different. But unconditional absolutes throw up red flags for me. Just sayin.

    I got no beef with you, though. :-)

  134. Annette- no prob. Glad to contribute.

  135. Sorry, to whichever anonymous didn't want to deal with rude people – you can only speak for yourself. I haven't noticed any particular rudeness, just requests for sound information rather than pronouncements and frustration when this hasn't been forthcoming, especially when it is impossible to have a discussion with anonymous who may be only one or one of several.

    I think if you are sure in your beliefs or knowledge, you should be secure enough to name yourself.

  136. "Rude people" is a by-product of any successful blog generating serious discussion.

    I don't think it's fair to say that "most people" on here are pretty rude, though–that hasn't been my experience. Occasionally, one or two flamers take up a disproportionate amount of space, but that's certainly not "most people."

  137. Dino, I agree with you about the mealtime with family. I don't like my girls watching me just eating veggies for dinner. Today we went out to eat and I shared a cheese pizza. I am drifting towards more of a vegetarian meal- lower in fat- not too much- instead of yucky okra and a salad. This could totally backfire on me- but in my book, it has to be sustainable. We'll see. These social issues must be considered for long term success.

    Also, we went to an art museum- no food or drinks allowed, so my lemonade sat in the car for most of the day.

  138. Dino and Deedle:

    I agree about the social/family aspect. I'm finding it difficult as I too have 2 children and currently am having just salad or veggies for tea. It's hard enough finding meals that everyone likes (my 3 year old is going through a fussy phase). It feels wrong too as I've always vowed not to make different meals for everyone. Not to mention I love eating meat!

    I've been vaguely following the RBTI for some ezcema I recently developed. (Before I found 180 I was coming off a sugar addiction following Kathleen Desmaisons "Potatoes Not Prozac" and those damn protein shakes triggered a dairy allergy – gutted). Anyway, Matt suggested eating light in the evenings and no meat or sweets after 2pm which I've been doing for about 3 weeks. I haven't yet noticed an improvement in the ezcema but what I have noticed is that my temps seem to be coming down. I am eating big the rest of the day but I'm a bit concerned that going hungry in the evening might be triggering the famine response. I seem to be losing weight too and although that's my ultimate goal, I don't want it at the expense of my metabolism.
    (My temps have been quite slow coming up but had just got over 97 for the whole of my last cycle. Now they have gone back below 97.)

    If anyone can offer any advice on this I'd appreciate it as I know Matt's currently on his travels.

    Thanks guys

  139. Dang, Ray Peat has nothing about Carey Reams on his site… wonder what he'd think? Between the two of them, what kind of picture of the animal body could we get?

  140. Andrew- "I'm sure his b12 deficiencies are the root of his irrational rage.. he also gets a b12 injection monthly"…so he would not be deficient then? Have a little ;) back at ya.

    Intermittent fasting is bad unless of course heavenly Challen says to, which eating a salad at dinner is practically fasting/ starving.

    Look whos life are you living here, your own or Challens? If you want to eat after 2pm then, haha, DO IT. Especially if it makes you feel bad and does not fit in with YOUR life.


    The most important part of the RBTI equation is the CS/ common sense part.

    Many people could do with more of it and to stop dropping their life for everyone of Matts fads.

    Some of you guys would eat shit if Matt said he did.

    If this is not a cult/ "religion" then I dunno.

    Don't breathe unless Matt says so, thankyou.

  141. I think Matt's already been through his Aajonus Vonderplanitz phase, so we're safe from being forced into eating feces because Matt said so (eyeroll).

    Progesterone: I'm really a DIY kinda person, including with my health. Going to a doctor and getting all the testing never seems to give me much bang for my buck, so keep in my mind that my results are purely anecdotal. I started using progesterone on and off just past 30. I felt like I was entering menopause (hot flashes, irrational anger and crying, crazy periods, etc). My mom gave me some of her natural progesterone to use (recommended by John Lee, the dr. who brought progesterone into the limelight). It seemed to stop things in their tracks after only one month's use. I didn't use it again for awhile. But then after getting super ill, and going raw (big help, but not enough), I started with Armour. Helped more, but still not complete. Bought the progesterone on John Lee's website, and the two of those made me feel great. I used small amounts of progesterone, but not every month (some doctors think you can use too much). But Armour became impossible to get, so I stopped taking anything for thyroid. That's when I really hit a wall. The progesterone was not as helpful as before. Then, with the focus on Ray Peat, I majorly upped the progesterone. He says if you don't take enough, it actually increases the symptoms of estrogen dominance. Helped a lot with all the "girl" problems (aching breasts, cramps, periods too close together, heavy flow, etc). Still had a complete lack of energy, and other issues, though.

    With the advent of RBTI, I decided to stop taking every single supplement, including progesterone, to try to gauge my "real" health. Not too many problems last month, but we'll see. I'm guessing the progesterone is still built up in my system.

  142. Dino et al: Matt definitely thinks RBTI is only worth it if your health is in the toilet, basically. I have days when all I seem to be able to do is stare at the ceiling. Even being on the computer seems like too much effort. So I'm willing to do this (I think, not all the way on it yet). Plus my kids are at home, so they eat giant lunches with me! But I can definitely see that it wouldn't be for everyone. I've spent the last 3+ years on some funny diets circling back in on my good health (I'm sneaking up on it bit by bit!), and being very good at giving up whatever that diet says to give up, so the rigidity of RBTI is not bothering me (yet).

    I had a conversation with Matt about what the "endpoint" of RBTI is. When are you actually "healthy" enough to not need RBTI at all? He has no answer, because there doesn't seem to be one. Nobody really has stuck with it that long, it seems like.

    I think you're supposed to look at it this way – there are things that increase your energy reserve, and things that drain it. So health can be in flux, and that's why there isn't really an endpoint. It gets to the point of deciding what aspects to keep, to keep your health from declining again. Not that many people are capable of being RBTI rigid for years on end. As I understand it.

    Supposedly if you get to the point where you're so healthy for a year (perfect equation numbers), you can eat however you want the rest of your life. Matt seems to think that is purely hypothetical. Nobody has actually done it (because we're human and won't stick to the plan? because it's impossible? not sure) so that's why we're not having all these people coming out of the woodwork with perfect health thanks to RBTI.

    Even Challen, who supposedly has reached perfect numbers decades ago, then gave up on it for years.

    I don't think there's a lack of people with perfect RBTI health commenting here because people are "rude" on this site. I think some of the anon RBTI people need to be on the program a lot longer to get over their hypersensitivity…

    And anyhow, even if they're afraid to comment here, well, they're not on FB and they're not at Challen's clinic either (Matt hasn't met them). They're not on the internet anywhere, sharing the miraculous program that is RBTI. If it's so great, wouldn't you want to tell others? So where are they?

    At any rate, RBTI seems to be able to bring you back from the brink of disaster (at least for some people). I'm not sure if "perfect" health is attainable. It's a big carrot, isn't it?

  143. It is fun to see how things affect my "sugar" levels though. Whether or not 1.5 is the perfect number, I can definitely see that what and when I eat changes that reading. We ate "lunch" in the late afternoon the other day, including cake, because it was my kid's bday and we wanted everybody to be home. The next day, I couldn't control my sugar levels, which I've gotten fairly good at controlling. I kept crashing repeatedly, and without the usual provocation (drinking water, eating porridge, etc). So that's cool.

    I think that's why everybody says you have to try it to believe it. It sounds like hocus pocus, but these "rules" actually seem to work.

    Anyhow, forgive the rambling. All that crashing was yesterday and my brain is all over the place (see RBTI is a great excuse for all kinds of things!).

  144. Temps coming down – everybody (who measures, at least) seems to experience that at first, until your body adjusts. Especially if you ate most of your calories at night. Try to eat more at lunch! And dessert! Not much help, but many people say it takes them over a month to adjust.

  145. Another thought on pork in general and validity of the perfect equation… I've wondered this before, but Reams' testing population was farmers of (presumably) European descent. I can't help but wonder if different ethnicities/sexes/ages have different "perfect" numbers.

    I know there's the theory about the difference between maintaining health and regaining health too. But I can't get over the fact that the Hawaiian diet comprised of pig and all the no-no seafood. And sea salt. They had no lemons. They didn't have a big variety of food (all those foods you think of as Hawaiian were introduced later). I think they had only a few edible foods (besides herbs and seasoning type things). I have no idea what time of day they ate. But come on, if the always no foods are that bad for you, and variety and lemon juice are that important, surely they wouldn't have been the amazingly strapping specimens of humanity that they were. It just doesn't jive. It's a major point of… uh… can't think of the word. Disconnect? Not the right word (damn that low sugar).

    Discuss at your leisure. I have juice to drink.

  146. Dino and Deedle and others who are struggling with dinner time: was it Challen who told you that you had to eat only veggies at dinner? From what I've read on here, other items are also fine at dinner: cottage cheese, yogurt, beans, toast, soup, etc. I think the key is to cut out meat and maybe not eat tons of calories. Ie, keep it 'light.'

    I think I recall Matt telling someone that they could also eat more carbs at dinner if they were experiencing sugar crashes or had physically/emotionally demanding evenings.

    I remember Matt also pointing out that Challen once ate a whole cheese pizza for dinner, so Deedle, I don't think you're doing anything wrong by sharing some pizza at dinner.

    It doesn't solve the social aspect, since you would still be eating smaller portions and avoiding other items at dinner, but I don't think it has to be just salad/veggies. I think others may prefer that, though, because it works for them.

    Anyway, I'm not trying to convince you to stick with it if it's not working for you. My thinking about RBTI is very similar to what Lorelei outlined above…the jury is still out, but damn, it would be nice to heal from some ongoing, nagging issues. But I'm going to give my current program some more months to see how it plays out. My temps are slowly increasing every month, even though I'm doing the RBTI dinner thing (veggies/salad because that's working for me, although it's taken some time).

    But I'm not really following much else about RBTI, besides the no foods (most of them). I'm not testing in any way.

  147. Thanks for the link Jacqueline!

  148. SJ is right it doesn't have to be just vegetables, esp if you're low sugar. I tend toward just salad because I'm done with the day by then and don't feel like making anything else… but the main idea is no meat, no sweets and lowish carb.

    From Matt's book:

    21 Dinners

    All best with a nice glass of skim milk if you can

    1) Vegetarian pizza
    2) Borsht
    3) Tomato salad with Kalamata olives and Feta
    4) Steamed okra with cottage cheese
    5) Vegetarian quesadilla
    6) Tomato soup
    7) Sautéed vegetables with corn on the cob
    8) Broccoli cheese soup
    9) Toast with cream cheese and a small salad
    10) Turnip greens
    11) Steamed asparagus with cottage cheese
    12) Tortilla Soup
    13) Homemade bruschetta
    14) Celery Root soup
    15) Spaghetti with tomato sauce
    16) Steamed turnips with cottage cheese
    17) Butternut squash soup
    18) Sugar snap peas with cottage cheese
    19) Vegetable soup
    20) Veggie nachos with lots of fresh salsa

  149. My saliva pH is running 7 and urine pH around 5.5. How does one raise urine and lower saliva pH.

    What are the best foods to raise one pH and lower the other?

  150. Thanks Lorelei and SJ. I do eat more than veggies for my evening meal, I should have mentioned I do eat carbs too. I'm not eating dairy at the moment because the ezcema it triggers is what I'm trying to heal by doing this. I'm lucky to be in pretty good health otherwise. The thought of eating dessert for lunch is a bit scary for a recovering sugar addict. I have eating cake and chocolate since at parties etc but I'm not sure I'm ready to do it every day yet as slipping back into my former habits is not an option.

    So are you finding RBTI is working for you on the whole? From what you said about the fact that there aren't many people who stick with it for extended periods, would that not suggest that it doesn't really work long term? I guess it's all just down to the individual finding a balance. If my temps keep coming down and my ezcema doesn't go away I'll stop doing it because it won't be worth it. I'll just avoid dairy but eat a big meaty dinner.

  151. Undertow, from what I know, you can only shift urine "easily". On the main FB site there's a doc for what to eat based on urine pH. Off the top of my head, if you're acidic, no citrus ('cept lemon!), more cheese, bananas, wheat. My UpH shifts from 6 to 8 and back again all day long, so I'm not on top of that info. Also, no Vit C, and there are different calciums based on your pH.

  152. Jacqueline, I just wanted to thank you again for the info you present. You are so calm and honest about RBTI. No name calling or putting people down (unlike so many of the anonymous pro-RBTI here… why is that?). Even when we disagree with what you tell us, you just let it be and put out the info again. Also, you don't act like you know everything and everybody else is stupid for not jumping on the RBTI bandwagon.

    You're the main reason I've decided to give RBTI a shot. Matt brought us the info, but I was turned off based on Erika's testimonials. Too cultish! And, except for Dorie and Pippa, nobody else has done this very long. So I'm glad you're here (William was helpful too until Erika chased him off).

  153. I haven't been able to follow much of 180 lately because I was traveling. Now I am back and I hear about this RBTI. I'm confused….before I left it was all about "eat the food" and keeping it simple. RBTI sounds quite in depth and complicated. I'm certainly interested if it does work which from what I read on here it does. My question is…you get this package, learn about RBTI, buy the expensive kit to test your pH levels, and then what? Are there instructions that are going to tell you how to change your diet once you know your numbers? Do you have to know these numbers to make the diet work?

  154. Bettie, I'm just stepping into RBTI one thing at a time. First I did the meal timing and no foods. Was able to stop raging cravings (chocolate! sugar! chips!). Then I started distilled water. I can see myself cleansing (urine so cloudy it's opaque, coinciding with fevers). But still not a lot of progress in terms of energy or weight. Tomorrow I'm going to start lemonade based on Matt's recommendation. He thinks that should up the ante.

    Why don't people stick with it? You don't feel good right away. Cleansing sucks. They think they're healed so they stop it. Or no willpower to avoid no foods (I have major willpower but not until I decide it's worth it). Socially it's odd. I'm used to being the odd one at social functions, so that doesn't bother me, but for a lot of people it's hard to be different. And I'm sure for some it doesn't work.

    Eczema is a sign of too much toxicity. I had a terrible form of eczema which triggered my foray into alternative health. Dishydrotic eczema, which means your hands/feet become allergic to water and break out in itchy weals which then turn into a bloody raw oozing mess. Forget dishes, swimming, showering, washing your hair, washing hands after going to the bathroom, etc. I couldn't even touch liquidy produce. So yeah, I was willing to do anything – no search on the internet turned up any help allopathic or natural, only people begging for solution. Except one person who switched to a raw diet, and fasted. It all went from there. I was so toxic I couldn't even take milk thistle. Now I have no problem.

    I'm happy to say that my eczema seems to be gone (but I still don't do dishes just in case!) after 3 years of "healing" diets. Each of which has had it's own downside, sadly.

    Anyhow, theoretically RBTI is a cleansing diet, and easier than water and juice fasting (sort of), so it should help eczema.

  155. Dino (and everyone else in this discussion), I did not have a good reaction at all to trying to follow the basic RBTI principles (not testing) and went from being in pretty good health to feeling not good at all. Since I stopped, I'm better but still not great. (But I'm also doing probiotics and stuff to clear candida now, so the detoxing may be part of it.) Anyway, I came to the same conclusions as Dino, the restrictions are not worth it. I have no problem avoiding pork, sea salt, etc. but the meal pattern made me feel unsocial, not to mention my blood sugar crashed constantly. And having had an ED, I was feeling danger signals about follow such a restrictive plan. I decided to go the other route and have an appt with a doctor who works with hormone levels and stuff. In the meantime (b/c there's a wait) I have an appt with a good TCM/accupuncture person (good thing about NYC is there are great health practitioners here), and maybe that will help re-balance me.

    Anyway, I'd rather do stuff like accupuncture and teas, or even take hormones, if it allows me to have a normal lifestyle and healthy relationship with food. There's more than one way to skin a cat, and I'm certain that RBTI is not the only path to healing, and it's not the one I'm choosing at this point.

  156. Thanks for everyone's input. I have no intention on quitting RBTI. Matt's dinner suggestions are exactly the type of meals I am making. One thing that has been on my mind is: What are the ideal sugar numbers throughout the day? My sugars are around 5 until 11 am- then they drop to about .5-1.5, then they rise again to about 5again after 2pm and into the evening. These readings have been like clockwork. I feel like I need a target. Is 5 too high anytime?

  157. @Lorelei aka Hawaiigirl
    Thanks for the compliments.

    I was giving some valuable information in the beginning of my RBTI journey and I am glad I can do something back.

    I was also sceptical in the beginning so to me it seems weird to put people down when I also questioned things.

    Dr. Reams mentioned several times that he was just in kindergarten when he was referring to his knowledge of RBTI. I am still learning every day from the people I give advise, RBTI materials or information mentioned on the internet and I will keep on doing this.

    Good luck with adding the lemon-aid in your routine. Please let me know if you have any questions about this.

  158. @Mike
    RBTI is as simple and complex as life itself. You can study it all your life, but you will still not fully understand every little detail. Dr. Reams did and he was quite a genius, but was also proud to say his level of understanding was like kindergarten, and the ones who believed they fully understood were ‘fools’ (his words, not mine). Compare it to looking at the sky on a clear night. Can you see how big everything is, and how small the earth is?

    But you can’t really put things in perspective unless you know how big the part is that you can’t see. RBTI is utterly complex, but even understanding only some simple basics can do wonders for ones health. Many claim to have ‘cured’ the incurable Crohn’s in weeks and cancer in months. Teeth that were brown and rotting that started glazing in weeks.

    Just so much can be accomplished with even little knowledge. The test kit is the most important. The knowledge can be found everywhere, from http://www.RBTI.info, rbtinotes.com to Matt Stone’s e-book package, from Beddoe’s book to Challen’s levels. Some are good, some not so. Remember that everyone sees a different part of the puzzle and not all teach in a way that suits you.

    Try to find a source or consultant that works for you. For everyone the amount of distilled water is different, as well as the supplements they have to take. The only real way of knowing is testing. The best way of understanding is by working on your own numbers and truly feeling what you are seeing in the numbers.

  159. @Deedle
    Ideally the Brix should remain 1.5 throughout the day IF ALL OTHER NUMBERS ARE PERFECT. Please keep that in mind! If the other numbers are not perfect, 1.5 can be really low. Below 1.2 your body will not have the energy to heal, no matter what your other numbers are. If they drop even lower, you are doing something wrong.

    Below 1.0 was where Dr. Reams stated you should eat just about anything sweet, including cake, white sugars etc. The numbers are in line of importance. The Brix represents the total amount of potential energy (not the available energy!!!) in the system. If it is too low you simply do not have the energy, if too high, you do not have the oxygen to use the energy.

    If your Brix drops below 1.2, that is an indication that your current program does not suit your current chemistry, and you should take (a bite of) fruit to compensate. If that happens just once, don’t think too much of it.

    You seem to suggest it always happens. It may be wise to adjust the program. But also do remember that below 1.0, you are really late at compensating. The first requirement for health is not present. Just because Dr. Reams said one should take just about whatever if that is not present, does not make white sugars and cake healthy.

  160. Jacqueline-

    Do you by any chance know where to get those liquids in Denmark? The contact I had failed to provide me with it.
    I have had the kit for more than a month now but without the last two liquids I can't really make a full test, which is kind of frustrating..

  161. Thanks for your info on progesterone Lorelei. Good luck with RBTI. I think I will watch from the sidelines and see how you all do before trying RBTI again. It definitely does something to the body – but unfortunately it brought back 2 of my big health issues, migraine etc. Having read Jacqueline's information above I think my sugars were going too low during my period and this triggered my health issues. I wonder though about the harmlesness of it since it does have an affect – perhaps we shouldn't be messing with the body's natural homeostasis to such an extent and perhaps over the long term this can mess things up. I wish Dorrie hadn't vanished from the scene – the fact that she had been doing it for 4 years (I think) and it had not worked out for her was useful information. I think it would be better to be able to consult Challen/consultant personally – interpreting the ph and urea charts is so subjective I was wondering if I had it right most of the time and consulting in person would be far more effective just because they are so much more experienced in interpreting the tests. It seems like quite a few people only had real success with RBTI when they went and stayed with Challen.
    Amy, you and I seem to have similar issues. I would love to know how successful you are with these TCM/hormone doctors as I live near NYC and would appreciate a recommendation. I don't always read this blog – I hope I don't miss your updates.

  162. UNDERTOW: Saliva 7 / Urine 5.5 …I would use food first. Oranges, grapes,apples, cranberry juice and distilled water. Vitamin C tends to lower Saliva pH. If that fails, calcium lactate will bring the saliva down but watch that it doesn't bring you down too far. Experiment with lemon …you may not need it at the moment or maybe just one a day. Liver congestion is a possibility and you may experience some detox along the way. Drink distilled water on schedule helps tremendously.

  163. @ Sheila

    You can order the UREA and pH test kit or the UREA reagents through rbti.info

    I do not know a location in Denmark but hope this helps.

  164. I'll keep you updated, Dino!

  165. Jacqueline,
    Thank you for your response. I agree with Hawaii Girl. You have always been polite and helpful. Challen mentioned something similar about losing energy below 1.5– I'm just wondering if my sugars crash regularly at 11 am- should I eat fruit at 10:30 to prevent the crash? Also, is distilled water the only way to lower the sugars the rest of the day?

  166. So I tested at 10 am 3.2 and by 10:30 the sugar was .8. I am eating grapes.

    So- is the 1.5 target- being constant all day long a realistic target- or is it some ideal like the Greek statues of the perfect human speciman?
    In other words- do people achieve the perfect numbers and are they able to sustain the perfect chemistry?

    I think I saw Challen mention in one of the clips that sugars naturally go down around 11 am and naturally rise after 2pm- hence the recommendation to not eat sweets after 2pm. Is the "natural" fluctuation representing the average modern human and not a human with perfect chemistry? It seems that if a human has perfect chemistry that they would be able to eat whatever and whenever without harm. I'm stating the obvious- but I just want to know what is a realistic goal.

    Also, my program may not be suitable-on the other hand- maybe I'm being sloppy with the current recommendations.

    Human error/stubborness must be accounted for.

  167. @Deedle
    An RBTI equation consists of 7 variables. Even if you have all 7, you need to keep the gender, age and race in mind. Not to discriminate, but because they all change how the body works. And ideally that should be complemented with a whole list of other things. Some consultants have questionnaires, some use eye-charts (to figure out if the system is cooperating), some look at how dull the hair is (parasites), how thick the skin is, wrinkles etc., etc. In your case I have only the Brix, which does not tell much by itself, and that you are a female. Therefore I cannot give you a good advice, and have to stick to general information, which may or may not be helpful.

    The first number of the equation is the first because it is the first requirement. The numbers are in order of most importance. If the Brix is too low, the energy is not present, if it is too high, the energy is not available. In most cases there are only two reasons for crashing Brix values: The fluid intake is incorrect, or the person did take something that his/her system can’t handle at that particular time. Sure if the person does go through a healing crisis, it can also crash, but I do not believe that is the case with you. I would recommend you to keep track on what you eat and every number you can measure yourself. With that combined, there is a fair chance patterns will show IF you take a regular fluid intake.

  168. Jacqueline, is there any way I can email you?

  169. Hi Brett,

    You can reach me at jacqueline AT rbti DOT info

  170. @undertow

    rbti.info > urine pH > how the urine pH relates to other numbers

    "The first relation of the pH of the urine is with the pH of the saliva. Both tell you how well you pick up the minerals, and a correction of one will affect the other. So if both are a bit high, or low the correction is much easier as when one is high while the other is low. In that case the low one always has priority, no matter how high the other is."

  171. Lorelei -

    The eczema you had sounds like it was pretty hardcore. Mine is nothing like that bad but although water doesn't seem to trigger mine, it certainly makes it sore. My eczema has got worse over the last day or so even though I've been avoiding my trigger foods. Could it be the start of it healing? I hope so. It's starting to get me down. It covers most of the back of my left hand and it's starting to embarrass me when people see it. Boo. In other news though, my temperature came back up this morning. Hooray.

    Thanks to you and everyone else for the kind advice, much appreciated.

  172. Just wondering if anyone has gotten sick while doing RBTI, and how one can tell the difference between illness and a healing crisis? I've been casually doing the program until my conductivity meter arrives (at which point I'll choose a consultant and follow the program fully). I got sick and/or had a healing crisis this weekend – I had a horrible headache, felt nauseated, felt like my body was weighed down and kept feeling like I was going to black out, which is NOT a pleasant feeling (even while resting in bed). I had so little energy I could hardly move – but no other symptoms. I managed to test my sugars a couple of times (which was hard – I felt that bad) and they were just below 1. Normally I run in the high range of 3-6. It was a one day thing. I'm fine today. I have been following meal times, drinking distilled water to bring sugars down, etc., which is why I considered a healing crisis. On the other hand, a couple of people I know were sick this weekend. Any thoughts? – Lieta

  173. (Sorry – above comment intended for Anyonymous = Lieta. Cheers.)

  174. Dope! Where did my "above comment" go? Sorry if this is a x2

    Anonymous – Lieta, was just trying to say distilled water alone could potentially cause your symptoms, especially in a sensitive individual (the distilled water messes with your electrolyte levels). It actually gives me some of the symptoms you describe (though milder, I don't feel like blacking out, just really lethargic). RBTI suggests those with high conductivity (and high Brix too I think, can't find the reference?) shouldn't start out with full amounts of distilled water and need to ease into it and increase as numbers improve.

    Others may suggest your symptoms are detox, but thought I'd mention this as might be worth backing off on the distilled water a bit, at least until you have your testing equipment to see how you are travelling?

  175. I had a horrible day yesterday. I stared at the ceiling most of the day. I agree with the water thing. Today, I am using a little CS (Common Sense). I am pretty new to RBTI, so I don't have the knowledge base. I am closely monitoring my sugars so I don't crash. Here is my game plan:

    Drink Lemonaid/ Distilled water in 1/2 hour increments. Started 7am-8am. Sugars started falling. Ate 3 grapes, toast, egg. Switched to skim milk at 8:30am to take vitamins. I will not return to water intil my sugars go up again- testing to see…..
    They usually go up 1-2pm. Will drink lemonaid/distilled water until 8pm. I know this is totally against what Challen told me, but I started feeling better last night as I drank water and my sugars came back down.

  176. Deedle – bet my ceiling is more boring than your ceiling!

    First day of lemonade yesterday. After the first hour, never drank on the half hour again, even juice. Felt overhydrated, despite that (probably all that peeing). Couldn't keep my sugars up at all. Dry breakfast and everything. :( Terrible reflux in the late afternoon, never have that problem.

  177. Holy sugar issues Batman! Was it Pipparoni that also had to go see Challen in person or just Moi/Erika? It would be great to find out what exactly happens at Challen's place that is different from what folks do at home, i.e. how Challen helped Pip and Moi in person. I'm not sure that we ever got a clear answer on that, but my memory is a little fuzzy now.

    It does seem odd that so many are having troubles keeping their sugars up. What Jessie added is helpful and I'm wondering if that was simply what Challen did…give smaller amounts of fluids?

  178. If I'm remembering right, I'm pretty sure in Erika's case it was that she was still eating too "healthy" – too much whole grain for her digestion. That's why she was so very into "junk" foods (oreos, dairy queen, etc). Considering that a year ago she was eating nothing but meat, organs, and veggie juice, processed food probably was the best thing for her!

    I think Pip went because she went to see Matt – I know before that he had been planning to go see her in HI, because I was excited about Matt coming this way.

    I'm sure we all make silly mistakes though – reading Matt's package made me realize some little mistakes I was making, even though I knew better in theory. And from what I gather, Challen isn't always clear. So if you go there, he'll see what you've done wrong. I think it only matters if you're particularly ill though.

    Only 25% of the population is supposed to have low sugar issues… but we seem to be the people who show up on Matt's blog, so it appears disproportionately high! Matt pointed out a mistake he made and many of us do – we're not trying to PREVENT the sugar crashes, just moderate them as they happen. Now if you recognize a certain food is problematic (like oats or honey), you can cut it out for now. But don't go too far away from Challen's directions in order to keep from crashing. It's part of the balancing act your body needs to learn (as I understand it, I could be getting it wrong). I think different practitioners have different views on that though.

  179. Thanks Lorelei :) That helps. I haven't bought Matt's book yet as I'm too crazy busy right now. I'm sure reading it will clear up a lot, too.

  180. Thanks, Hawaii Girl. My ceiling is very vanilla. I've been thinking about painting. Perhaps a replica of the Sistene Chapel.

    It is hard to get clarity in a 15 minute consultation with Challen. This has been my biggest frustration. I can't see where all this is going. What's the end result- that I drink lemonaid every hour for the rest of my life and never have a real dinner with my family again?

    I'm glad to hear that we are not supposed to prevent sugar crashes. Frankly, I spent my day today doing such and I almost threw my refractometer out the bathroom window. I never crashed, but I never came down, either.

    I think I'm just going to chill out tonight and have a hamburger, yes, a hamburger with the rest of my family and regroup.

  181. Deedle, first you want to start with a tangy shrimp cocktail appetizer. Then a bacon cheeseburger on a sesame seed bun, with golden french fries cooked in tallow and seasoned with sea salt and pepper. A nice tall chocolate milk shake made with real cream to drink. After, sit down with a hot cup of tea and a big bowl of popcorn while watching a movie with your family.

    Let me know if you're still alive the next day. :)

  182. Hawaii Girl- The popcorn had butter on it!!!!! Also, we decided to watch an old fav
    Better off Dead.

    Thanks for the article Jacqueline.

    BTW- The hamburger was awesome and my sugars came down from 5.4 to 2.0


  183. Undertow: When your pH numbers are split, my thinking,(someone please correct me if I'm wrong) would be to take Mincol (neutral) along with keeping your food choices balanced with both alkaline (peaches, apricots, pineapple) and acid (citrus/cranberry). As well as following the "rules" with drinking and eating on schedule. Also, listen to your body and rest when necessary. Stress can affect your pH.

  184. Thanks all, definitely conflicting info on the internet about what is alkalising food and what is not.

    Is there a RBTI list of the top approved alkalising foods and the top approved acid foods?

    I have up'd the skim milk, cheese and bananas for now.

  185. On the low sugar issue, yesterday Challen told me the "rules for sugar". If less than 2 – no water (he did say to continue the lemon/water just stop the plain water on the hour).
    If less than 1.5 eat a piece of fruit.
    If less than .5 take tsp of sugar in mouth and hold until dissolved, then swallow.
    And that I should be testing my sugar every time I go to the bathroom.

  186. Does anyone know where Matt is speaking this weekend in California?

  187. WOW,

    7 Magic Metrics.


    Matt is not making this RBTI stuff look any less like a snake oil, quack, huckster, money making, supplement selling, guru/ religious/ cult thing is he.

    Sorry but that whole page reads like one of those terribly tacky online money making schemes, always with some kind of magic secret hidden behind mounds of sales talk.

  188. Yikes. I have to agree with Lee. That page is awful. "Magic Metrics?" And the cheesy hard sell? I kinda feel sick to my stomach, actually.

  189. To those that have purchased Matt's RBTI intro package:

    Are the video and audio recordings of Matt himself or are they recordings of Challen?

    Just curious, I expect Matt to be a bit easier to understand.

  190. CandaceK,

    Matt spend a whole month + with Challen. I don't know if he paid for that or if Challen shared the knowledge freely. But I do bet this: I bet Challen's business is booming because of exposure on this blog. I just spent $300 with another one of the sources in Matt's ebook that Matt has zero connection to. Matt is spreading the word and if Challen didn't make him sign some kind of non-disclosure agreement because Challen wants to make money from his proprietary system, who's responsibility is that? Good luck as no one would have heard of him if it wasn't for Matt. It sounds to me like YOU are the only one concerned about protecting knowledge to make money. Challen and Matt just want to help people, not try to gouge people and get rich.

  191. also, do you think Reams charged Challen and the other people he personally taught out there? Do you think Reams complained about them writing books on RTBI and selling them and giving consultations and HELPING PEOPLE? Give me a @#$% break.

    I remember in the old days, herbalist Dr. Richard Schulze use to share all his formulas and tell you exactly how to make them. Now he only makes them himself and sells them himself. Sad.

  192. I should say, I'm sure Reams held classes he charged for, just as a number of other RTBI consulants do today. But did he/do they then say the knowledge cannot be shared? It simply doesn't work that way. If Matt copied word for word Challen's or another's work, yeah, that's copyright violation. But he or you or I can learn and then put it to use as well as write our own book about it.

  193. Rocket

    The video and audio recordings are of Matt. Very informative they are too :)

  194. Mishkam

    Thanks for that.

  195. I hated the clackfit thing too. Like a bad TV infomercial, complete with poor spelling. Glad I'm not the only one…

  196. Anonymous, Reams' did charge for classes. He also charged people coming and staying in his home.

    Notice how Matt is changing the name to "Magic Metrics?" Lee has a point, sounds like a snake oil salesman now. And did you guys see the advertisement page? Holy cheese.

    From my understanding, Matt had a payment/exchange worked out with Challen, which Matt snuck out on after he got the information.

  197. @ Jacqueline

    You said before that if the sugar is too low (below 1.2 was it?) the body doesn't have the energy to heal. But if the sugar is too high, it doesn't have the oxygen to use the energy. How high would the sugar have to be for that to happen? Thanks!

  198. @ Anonymous: how do you know that Matt snuck out on Challen?

  199. Magic metrics? Matt's def a shake oil salesman now. And that sales page. Holy cheese!

    Hey matt, how do you think a copyright infringement/IP theft stain will look on your reputation?

  200. @dan rumor through the grapevine.

  201. I hope that's not for real, but seems like it is. Basically claiming your own system (RBTI isn't mentioned on the page) after learning for one month has got to be some kind of record. Kind of like some guy opens his own school of kung fu after learning for a month. lol

  202. I pity the fool that thinks I had anything to do with clackfit's " magic metrics" or that sales page. Come on you guys. You guys piss the hell out of me when you don't know me better than that.

  203. Matt, that clackfit webpage comes from a link Yusuf put on FB… and you say in the video that Yusuf was having you come speak… so I assumed he had your permission, and I would presume that's why others did too.

    Although I figured the extreme cheesiness of it was not your doing, nor was it your idea to call it seven magic metrics. Figured that was some weird clackfit hype.

    So don't be too pissed at me (begging for forgiveness)!

  204. Matt, when can we purchase the 7 magic metric supplements?

  205. @Lee lol

    matt, why don't you respond to the questions surrounding your integrity?

    Instead you come on here and be angry at people for questioning your intent and tactics?

    I know there are some die hard fans here, and they don't like to hear their "hero" could possibly have done something very wrong, but seriously, I think you need to address the question.

    Why are there these rumors?


  206. I for one would like to know about the rumor of you not meeting your end of your deal with Challen…

    Or is there a reason you won' ttalk about it?


  207. "You'll find out what your own 7 metrics are, plus gain razor sharp insight about them from two of the best at this system in the world: Matt Stone and Pippa Galea."

    What abou tthis? Is this really what your claim is?

  208. @Hans,
    Certain parts of the blood contain either sugars or oxygen. So the less sugars, the more oxygen it can contain and vice versa. I believe you got that part.
    If the Brix is below 1.2 there is not enough energy to heal, but no harm will be done yet, it still needs to be lower for that.
    If it gets a Brix reading above perfect, there will be less oxygen. But please do remember that an increase of 4 points is not as bad as a decrease of one point. A Brix of 1.5 is only perfect if your body works efficient (so the other numbers are close, well, at least healing range). If you would ask me which was more healthy:
    1.5 5.5/5.8 25C 4M++ 12/8
    5.5 5.5/5.8 25C 4M++ 12/8
    Then it would definitely be the last, because the Brix is much more in balance with the rest of the numbers.
    If you only have the Brix number, then it does not provide you with much info.



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