Understanding Belly Fat

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“Those subjects who gained the most weight became concerned about their increasing sluggishness, general flabbiness, and the tendency of fat to accumulate in the abdomen and buttocks.”
-The Biology of Human Starvation… Response to the miraculous healing that took place during re-feeding after 24 weeks of calorie-restriction completely ruined the physical, mental, and emotional health of 32 young men.

Some mentions of belly fat came up in the comments section of a recent post. First of all, as a primer, belly fat – or visceral fat, is considered to be the most harmful type of fat. This type of fat is strongly correlated with insulin resistance, metabolic syndrome, and the escalating problem of impaired glucose metabolism on the way to an increased risk of heart disease, many cancers, obesity, and type 2 diabetes.

So what is it? Where does it come from? What encourages belly fat storage? What discourages belly fat storage?

As always, my response to these questions takes in a broader view than what is typically circulated throughout the health and nutrition world.

Once again we travel back to one of the most thorough and insightful studies done on real, live, human beings. Yes, a favorite of mine, and one that holds particular significance in my heart due to my personal experiences with starvation – The Biology of Human Starvation.

In the study, 32 men about my age, with an average height and weight of 5’10 and only a buck-fiddy on the scale (like 70-75 kg), had their average calorie intake of 3,500 calories per day cut approximately in half for 24 weeks. During the 24 weeks, they lost tons of body fat and became skeletonized by the low calorie intake. They lost all their belly fat too!

Hooray! The cure for belly fat! Just eat half the normal amount of calories that you normally eat! Word to yo mama!

Unfortunately, what this ignores, and why studies done on the subject and many related subjects are always incomplete, are the after effects.

The men were of course ravenous post-diet, just like any study subject of any calorie restriction trial regardless of weight when entering into the trial. Don’t think for a second that the fact that these men were lean going into calorie restriction makes any real difference when comparing them to overweight subjects. It doesn’t, as any of the leading obesity researchers will tell you.

And, these ravenous men ate their faces off obsessively, and promptly regained all the weight they had lost plus an extra 40%.

The men were split into 4 groups of 8, and each of the groups received a different re-feeding calorie level during the first 12 weeks of re-feeding. Only one group was allowed to eat as much as they wanted.

As you can see in the snapshot I took of the graph representing the weight gain of each group (click to enlarge it), and how that weight was redistributed, there was a disproportionally large increase in abdominal circumference compared to how weight was regained in the arms, legs, chest, total body fat, and so forth.

The “eat ad libitum” group (T) regained more than 100% of their abdominal circumference while only 60% of their body weight losses were restored at week 12. This means belly fat came first, long before muscle mass was fully restored. Or in Ancel’s precise words…

“Anthropometric data support this conclusion and indicate that during rehabilitation the adipose tissue increased in size more rapidly than the muscles. In the highest caloric group the circumferences of the upper arm, calf, and thigh showed an average recovery of 45, 46, and 54 per cent of the starvation decrement, whereas the abdominal circumference exhibited a recovery of 101 per cent [at week 12 of refeeding].”

In every group, abdominal fat accumulation outpaced fat and muscle deposition elsewhere. And this was just the first 12 weeks. If you are familiar with the other snapshot I took of a graph in the book, you can see that body fat levels didn’t peak in these men until 33 weeks post diet, at which point they had 40% more body fat than they did prior to the low-calorie period. Of course, at this point they not only had more total body fat, but the bulk of that fat was centered around the abdomen.

In other words, eating less food than you want to eat, followed by eating the amount of food you want to eat (or even less as was the case in the three groups NOT allowed to eat to appetite for the first 12 weeks), yields a nice rise in belly fat in proportion to other gains.

Wow. Now we have a real problem. We have “PROVEN” that cutting calories causes a loss of belly fat, and at the same time have shown that calorie restriction’s after effects cause a huge rise in belly fat compared to starting levels.

So does calorie restriction decrease belly fat, or increase belly fat? The correct answer, unless you omit the actual human experience of ravenous and uncontrollable hunger post diet, is that it increases belly fat. That’s what actually happens in REALITY, aside from what can be ascertained by nerding around in journals looking for answers to simple questions that lie right beneath your fricking nose.

“Oh but Matt, in laboratories calorie restriction seems to improve health and longevity in rodents, monkeys, and fruit flies.”

Well NEAT-O! In humans that are not locked in cages but are surrounded by a vast ocean of the most calorie dense and rapidly-absorbed foods man has ever devised, calorie restriction leads to out-of-control hunger, cravings, and a huge increase in belly fat depending on how many rounds you repeat the cycle of trying to achieve calorie deficit through restricting your food intake.

In real life, this doesn’t just happen with calorie restriction. Try carb restriction, which is INCREDIBLE for lowering belly fat! However, when followed by eating a bunch of carbs, which most people crave too strongly NOT to eat, while others are eventually forced to eat because of a long list of minor health problems like indigestion, anxiety, insomnia, constipation, cessation of menstruation, and so on developed due to long-term carbohydrate restriction…

Belly fat returns, and belly fat levels increase above and beyond where they ever existed prior. Hey, let’s not pick on low-carb. I got myself an excellent belly by overexercising for 5 months (great for reducing belly fat!), followed by a 2-week lowfat vegan diet (dropped even more belly fat!) followed by eating to appetite and packing on the most impressive midsection intertube of good lovin’ I’ve ever had the pleasure of carrying around (aided by beer, refined sugar, fruit, restaurant-fried food, and refined grain… none of which are part of the rehabilitative strategy that I have devised in Diet Recovery).

So the question becomes – does eating to appetite of a mixed diet with low to moderate exercise levels and plenty of good quality sleep and relaxation cause an increase in belly fat? Or is the increase in belly fat merely a RESPONSE to the stress you have subjected yourself to prior to actually eating and living granny-style?

If you are intellectually crippled with an aversion to real world observation and experience, or like to analyze diet and health in little fragments instead of seeing the whole picture, then low-fat vegan diets, low-carb diets, exercising like a fiend, and calorie restriction are all fantastic ways to reduce belly fat. It’s just a matter of picking the right guru to lead you to salvation.

More to come in the next post about whether or not the body chooses to store belly fat to completely sabotage your health and make your significant other lose interest in your physical appearance, or if, perhaps, by some far-fetched chance, gaining belly fat is an emergency rescue procedure performed by the body to protect you from the repeated deprivations and stresses it’s exposed to.

146 Comments

  1. Good timing on the post as your last few post did bring this question to my attention. Now you have me wondering. I do gain a bit of weight in the midsection when I gain fat (again, I am talking small amount of weight here, you wouldnt look at me and think "he has a belly"). But that is what makes me question the weight I do gain. Where is the fat suppose to go? Arms, legs, etc. Not that I'm about gaining fat, just want to make sure the mid section fat isn't a sign of bad things. I eat a mixed diet to appetite. I avoid as much of non rehabilitative foods listed in the ebooks.

    Very interesting idea, maybe I haven't been eating enough for long enough. Just an interesting road because I can see if you start eating more and more and getting fatter and fatter how you would want to quit.

    Time shall tell I guess.

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  2. woohoo – first!

    I am curious to know if anyone has experienced this . . . when I get really hungry, I get severe hunger pains, and my belly gets bloated. I know the hunger pains are because I need to eat (duh), but why the bloated stoamch?

    Great post as always, Matt.

    -MT

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  3. I feel so hopeless about my weight and belly fat right now that I am leaning towards: "The body chooses to store belly fat to completely sabotage your health and make your significant other lose interest in your physical appearance". Though in my case, it's myself that is disgusted by my physical appearance.

    I am trapped in low carb land and can't get out without weight gain – even the 5lbs of water weight that would ensue would freak me out.I already hate my body, so can't run the risk of getting fatter. Plus, I am not losing weight now anyway.

    Hell low carb style. :)

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  4. Oh well I was beat!
    -MT

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  5. NICE matt , I love this study as wel as this post. werd to yer mudder!, could of been me saying all of it …good thing i spell bad RIGHT SYDNEY!! lol
    I have actually been misquoting the 40 % gain as 15 % lately .. way more shock and awe at 40%

    I cant see how anyone familiar with this study could think obesity does not equal starvation.

    hopefully people will see the belly fat gain has to do with their prior eating habits and lifestyle that got them in that boat and not "cococunt" oil or salmon fat or too many carbs or whatever.

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  6. is this in relation to intermittent fasting? I am confused…

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  7. I think the belly fat happens drastically due to the omentum. which is like an METROID-ish emergency energy reserve. It has a very large blood supply to feed the liver. Its a good indicator of chronic stress as it deals with inflammation as well as binding cortisol from out of the blood stream to it's receptors.

    this is why i tell everyone that asks me what to do about belly fat? is there a magic food? or super-sit up i can do ?…i usually tell em quit your crappy job lol

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  8. chris,

    intermittent fasting is usually abstaining from food all together for several hours or for a few days and at the most a week or 2 ( I don't recommend these extremes ). the study matt is talking about was semi-starvation (reduced calorie) for 6 months, not at all the same thing.

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  9. I'd be interested to hear anyone's experiences following a carbohydrate or fat restricted diet that was still high in calories. Should we expect fat gain in this case?

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  10. I had a super-high calorie diet (3-4000 calories a day) of fruits, vegetables, very rarely cooked starch, meat (both cooked and raw), nuts, and dairy. So, low-starch (not low-carb), where most of my calories came from fat. No sugar or veggie oils, no fake food, no wheat, etc, etc. I had a great weight. I ate like a pig. W/in 1 month of eating starch, I gained 7 inches on the belly. And 30 lbs. Months later, it's still here, despite switching to "low" (for me) fat. So yeah, it's not just calories, its removing anything from the diet.

    In the back of my head I keep reminding myself of that 33 week turnaround, but I'm at 20 weeks now and feeling sabotaged for sure. I just read Wilson's Adrenal Health book and I can see that I really have to focus on that before I can move forward (at least I hope that will fix me).

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  11. And speaking of that book, he recommends eating MORE protein for adrenal health, but I'm sure Matt suggested less was better, esp in the evening.

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  12. Emotional trauma takes a long, long time to recover from. I have triggers that will send me into a panic attack almost instantly and it's like my brain stops functioning in a single moment. And the triggers can be very simple, everyday things that any 'unaffected' person would consider benign.

    In other words: One manifestation of emotional trauma can be extreme reactions to inherently harmless stimuli.

    Metabolic trauma may be the same way, and I've seen that described in many places on this blog.

    Example: Carbs may be inherently benign, but they can be 'triggers' to very unpleasant experiences if you've been 'metabolically traumatized.' I am pretty much paraphrasing Matt by now, or reinforcing my understanding of these writings by repeating them in my own writing, so instead I'll give a solid example from my own life:

    *MAJOR* emotional trauma + lower-carb (not severe low-carb, but probably around 100-200g per day, widely varying) + intense exercise + lack of sleep + intermittent fasting every day + calorie restriction + being underweight to begin with + gross overconsumption of unsweetened chocolate (super stimulating in my experience) = rapid visceral fat gain after starting up on RRARF.

    That is the long-story-short in a nutshell.

    So I think it makes perfect sense why I'd be putting on so much visceral fat so quickly (and having been underweight, it's very, very noticeable to me).

    To make a parallel to emotional trauma, I get the sense that my body is still expecting to be abused. After all, that's what it's been conditioned to cope with for such a long time, with excessive exercise, sleep deprivation, insufficient calorie intake, chronic stress and panic attacks — the list goes on and on.

    I don't feel like actively engaging in almost any 'normal' activities – emotionally I feel completely wrecked and exhausted, which tells me I need time to recover.

    Maybe it's a stretch, but it's also like "active tissue," which Matt has also mentioned — bone, muscle, organs — why would my body want to 'actively engage' in that any more than I want to actively engage in 'normal' activities? It needs to recover.

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  13. (cont)

    …Putting energy into muscle and bone and organs and burning fat is probably the last thing that's going to happen now. That's probably like asking me if I'm ready to go get a job, get married and buy a house and have kids.

    It almost feels impossible for me to answer the phone when it rings, and sometimes just talking to people about anything at all overwhelms me and I need to go to some quiet, isolated place and get readjusted. Those other things aren't even on my mind.

    So again, why would all these higher-functioning things be on my body's mind? I may not have control over the part of my nervous system that controls all these functions but I have no reason to believe they aren't intimately tied to my conscious thoughts.

    I think Chinese medicine is on to something when it talks about "yin deficiency." Funny that potatoes are very "yin" in nature. I believe in Ayurveda there is also mention of carbohydrates pacifying Vatta (thin, dry, nervous tendency people, if I remember right) as well. Just interesting to note. And I do think there is a lot of danger in embracing knowledge without also embracing intuition simultaneously, so even though this little theory I'm writing out here isn't "legitimate," the fact that it feels like it makes sense — sense on an intuitive level — makes it feel legitimate to me.

    And I think there is something to that. There's that Zen maxim, "Eat when hungry, drink when thirsty." Actually, I'll post one of my favorite koans shortly after this.

    Anyway, I've probably said enough. I think I'm going to go listen to "Addicted To Spuds" some more.

    :D

    As always, thanks to everyone here for the thought-provoking comments and insights.

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  14. And here's that koan I wanted to share (from: http://deoxy.org/koan/80). Just thought it fit in really well here :)

    ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
    *The Real Miracle*
    ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

    When Bankei was preaching at Ryumon temple, a Shinshu priest, who believed in salvation through the repetition of the name of the Buddha of Love, was jealous of his large audience and wanted to debate with him.

    Bankei was in the midst of a talk when the priest appeared, but the fellow made such a disturbance that Bankei stopped his discourse and asked about the noise.

    "The founder of our sect," boasted the priest, "had such miraculous powers that he held a brush in his hand on one bank of the river, his attendant held up a paper on the other bank, and the teacher wrote the holy name of Amida through the air. Can you do such a wonderful thing?"

    Bankei replied lightly: "Perhaps your fox can perform that trick, but that is not the manner of Zen. My miracle is that when I feel hungry I eat, and when I feel thirsty I drink."

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  15. I was basically doing what Matt mentioned above (not sure if it was Matt Stone or another Matt commenting?)

    "*MAJOR* emotional trauma + lower-carb (not severe low-carb, but probably around 100g per day, Fruit and Veg Mainly) + intense exercise + lack of sleep + intermittent fasting every day + calorie restriction + being underweight to begin with "

    When I went from this crappy Paleo lifestyle to HED which was still moderate, it was basically the same diet but I started eating unrefined starch (the majority of the time) fat came like crazy over about a 4 week period then slowed (5-10lbs total). It was mainly on my butt, thighs and stomach. WHich made pants that fitted hard to find even though I was still fairly slender overall…..

    It took about 6 months of just eating to appetite of real food for the fat to finally start coming off. Now I am slimmer than the paleo days and feel a heck of a lot better. Thankfully I kept the faith that the fat was eventually drop off somehow.

    Realistically I had no choice as I felt so crappy with my messed up adrenals that I knew I couldn't go back to low carb or calorie restrict so I sort of consigned to being the bigger weight and just living my life….

    Anyway for those still struggling with the excess fat gain from RRARF or HED then hold in, good things will start to happen. Some tips I found helpful where to throw in some HIIT Cardio and Weights 2-3x per week (only when you feel ready though) and not going crazy with the fat during meals. Eat a wholefoods diet with a moderate fat consumption, this not only made me feel better (lighter, better digestions etc) but caused fat to start coming off.

    Anyone who has any questions or needs some support feel free to drop an e-mail. I can relate to how horrible it feels to put on those 5-10lbs of extra fat when starting to eat again….

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  16. Oh and BTW I am 6ft1 and peaked out at 84-85kg on HED and now weigh in at about 80kg with a lot more muscle than I did when doing Paleo and weighing about 78kg………

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  17. Matt: the tattooed beer gut photo is hideous. I can feel my cortisol levels spiking with disgust.

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  18. Interesting post Matt keep it coming

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  19. I'm with Chris here. We pretty much went through the same thing (copycat!) including mainly storing my body fat at the lower part of my body, which I'm still a bit confused about what that's actually supposed to mean.

    Actually I lost a lot of weight (several kgs as far as I'm concerned) a few weeks ago. I went on a class trip to England (Torquay, in case anyone is interested in that) and tried my best to avoid junk and vegetable oils, which I probably didn't suceed at that much. But whatever, simply because I was eating way less calories than at home I lost a significant amount of weight, even though I didn't really feel all that hungry.
    Considering the fact that I didn't really sleep very much and taking into account my recent gym performance, I probably also lost a little bit of muscle.
    Of course after coming home I regained some of that weight, but as far as I can tell, I still am thinner than before the trip.

    What really surprised my was my almost constant lack of hunger even though my energy levels where quite good despite the lack of sleep.
    So I guess what we can learn from all of this is that, as Matt said, if your metabolism is healed, weight loss probably is effortless, as long as the emotional aspect has been taken care of.

    And once again, I want to say that the emotional aspect about this probably plays a huge role. As chief said, stressing about your weight might already be enough to prevent you from losing weight.

    I know this advice likely won't help that much and you've probably heard it several times already, but to anyone whi is concerned about her/his weight gain, just try to stop giving a fuck, that will make things a lot easier.

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  20. Only vaguely related to this topic, but the exact composition of human fat seems like a useful thing to investigate.

    In particular what type of fats are synthesized on a high carb diet?

    Are there complete fats that other fats can be synthesized from in the same way there are complete proteins?

    Are there some fats that humans are unable to transform into a useful state? (pufas?)

    It seems that Palmitic acid is the first stage in human fat synthesis.(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palmitic_acid) This fat is found largely in palm oil and coconut oil. Maybe this has something to do with the health benefits associated with these foods.

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  21. Nice post Matt !
    And precisely about my current concerns.
    When i discovered your blog a few months ago I was struggling with the post-low-carb belly fat gains. I think the 33 weeks are overnow, I gained 10 kgs back from 12 but as you said, almost in the belly.

    @ Chris & Madmuhhh : your stories sound like hope to me !
    ***]I know this advice likely won't help that much and you've probably heard it several times already***
    :)

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  22. Awesome post , Matt. I fully support your blog. Feel free to use any snipets of studies from my own blog ( studies that you might not have heard of – but you probably did, as you read through the journals ) for use on yours. I just want the truth getting out to people. I know you are passionate about this. Your blog is awesome and refutes these "calorie counting" Internet gurus and their semi starvation nonsense.

    take care :))

    Raz

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  23. Matt, Chris, MadMUHHH,

    I'm with you all there, I did the below for just over a year;

    "Stress (work, new baby, acne…) + Very LC + intense heavy lifting exercise + late night hockey, twice/week + lack of sleep + intermittent fasting every day + calorie restriction + normal weight"

    I am on RRARF month 13 now and I can start to see the belly getting flatter, and core lean mass is still increasing, this without any exercise. I quickly gained 10lbs when I started HED/RRARF, and then lost 5lbs, in the last 4 months, and steady at 190lbs now.

    But sleep still needs to improve, this definitely points to my adrenals getting screwed, and acne still has to improve, which I suspect points to my having low thyroid function since I was a teen growing up on mega crap SAD diet.

    This healing thing, takes time!

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  24. Madmuhh-

    Awesome story! Thanks for sharing! Just proves that everything will come naturally. Nothing needs to be provoked.

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  25. Undertow-

    When you write: Sleep still needs to improve. What do you mean? Do you have trouble sleeping? And how is it related to your adrenals?

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  26. Sheila,
    I still have the 3am to 5am waking event, but I do fall back asleep more easily recently.

    Also if I don't get more then 8hrs sleep, I wake up feeling very very un-rested, and most of the morning is a foggy grumpy time! Typical adrenal burnout symptoms.

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  27. Undertow good to see you back over here. While I don't comment much I am always reading….

    I think time will really heal all, as Sheila says there is no point rushing or forcing anything in life it just creates more stress especially when it is out of our real control.

    As for sleep I normally hit the sack at around 10PM and will pretty much always wake between 3-5AM and find it tricky to get back to sleep. I have tried several things:

    - Hibernation Diet (fruit before bed, this made things worse. Left me cold and shaky in the morning and starving)
    - Snack before bed (cottage cheese on rye crackers etc) this helps a lot but still not quite deep full sleep.
    - Starch before bed (potatoes not prozac style) which has a similar effect to hibernation diet but not as pronounced.
    - Having a big dinner at around 7PM and falling to sleep satisfied but not full (this works best and leaves me sleeping usually from 10PM-6AM yet not always)

    Basically though I still get the waking up at 3-5AM and find the best thing to get back to sleep is a cup of slippery elm tea (helps soothe and settle the stomach) and sometimes I pop 200mg of Magnesium citrate which dozes me out but that gives me some crazy vivid dreams…….

    I really have bad trouble sleeping for any period of time when I go out with friends and have a few drinks. I will get back home at 3-4AM and wake at 7-8AM restless and agitated. Whereas everyone else can easily pass out until midday. Not a nice feeling ;-)

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  28. Chris,

    Right there with ya, I tried all the tricks, sucrose, starch, honey, mixed meals, IsoCort, OJ, OJ/gelatin, D3, cheeses, big dinners, small dinners…. and always with the wakings, and then when I wake at 7am – 8am then is no falling back asleep at all.

    Remember being a teen going to bed and sleeping from 11pm to 5pm the next day… that would be nice!

    Right now I aim for 9:30pm in bed and wake with no alarm, which is usually about 7am. Some nights the waking is 3am, some nights it 5am, but always happens, can't wait for this to go away!

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  29. Chris, Oh I should add, I am always here, I pick up all the post comments in an RSS reader. I read them all! Sometimes hard to find the time to comment. But Chief is doing a great job there, for reals :)

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  30. Undertow,

    I guess It helps that I have entrepreneurial savvy, when you do what you love to do everyday and your needs are met effortlessly, devoting ten minutes here n there to help people on 180 ends up seeming like less overall time spent then the average person spends in traffic. :)

    A good book for getting oneself in the same position is 7 habits of highly effective people.

    To me it's more rewarding and interesting than a sudoko puzzle. Part of my everyday "healing" to prevent my life from going back to what it once was. getting good at reading helps I read about 20 books a month so keeping up with the 2 blogs i follow is nothing.

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  31. i still think calorie and carb cycling is prolly your best bet for good weight gain

    also i think emotional stuff has a lot to do as well… when i started trusting starchy roots/tubers were not going to make me fat is when i started digesting them better and gaining muscle

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  32. “Those subjects who gained the most weight became concerned about their increasing sluggishness, general flabbiness, and the tendency of fat to accumulate in the abdomen and buttocks.”

    Yepp, that's totally me…..lol….Thanks so much for this post Matt. It will be a helpful place for me to return to over and over as I live with my new belly…..

    The problem is not what I'm doing now, but what I did the years before now. I'd love to hear more about the positives, ie the protective reasons for the belly fat.

    I also wonder if the group that was allowed to eat to fill their hunger vs the groups that were only allowed to partially refeed, I wonder if there were many other benefits to the faster and bigger accumulation of belly fat and if their body temperatures recovered faster?

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  33. @Undertow: Your sleep issues sound very similar to mine when I first starting working on healing my adrenals. I used to have trouble falling asleep and then would always awaken very early in the morning and find it hard to get back to sleep, even though I'd only slept for 5-6 hours and desperately needed more. This problem rarely rears its ugly head anymore, though. It took a lot of time, for one thing. My sleep improved very slowly, and often it seemed like it wasn't improving at all. But looking back two years I can see a huge difference.

    GABA supplements helped me a lot (NOW foods True Calm is an excellent one), and so did listening to Jon Gabriel's CD (when I got tired of hearing him talk I just got the SMART mode CD instead, which is the same music with no talking; it seems to work just as well). I still listen to it on occasion if I'm having trouble and let me tell you it never fails to put me to sleep within ten minutes.

    Funny enough, I had to stop caring about how much sleep I was getting to actually get the sleep
    I needed. I would stress out so much about not getting enough sleep that it would actually keep me awake! So instead sometimes I would just lay there thinking, "It doesn't matter if I don't fall back asleep. I can still have a good day tomorrow even if I can't get back to sleep." Somehow that got me back to sleep more often than not.

    Also, no checking email, no PS3 games and basically no computer at all before bed for me. I learned all that the hard way.

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  34. Great post Matt! It has been a little while, but may I suggest that, "It’s just a matter of picking the right guru to lead you to salvation." should have read, "It’s just a matter of picking the right guru to lead you to starvation."

    Actually the reason that I have not really been chimin' in is that I have got to a wonderful place in my diet, and relationship with food. For that Mr. Stone, I owe you a very large nod of appreciation.

    As many of you know that addressing the metabolism is of the utmost importance. Of course the path do so will vary greatly from person to person depending on your starting point.

    But hell, it's cool if people want to define themselves and their lives off of dietary "movements" who am I to judge. Oh, and guilty.

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  35. Thanks Elizabeth, it does seem that good real food and reducing stress is the only way to go. Then its just a matter of days, months, years, depending how messed up you are.

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  36. I've had good, consistent sleep results with jumbo popcorn before bed. I've had only mild sleep problems before, and I think my adrenals are okay. But a big bucket of popcorn drizzled with coconut oil and salt consistently gives me the most calm, uninterrupted sleep. I'm full, but not as full as a dog tick. Anyone else try this?

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  37. Matt #2 wrote:
    I love what you're saying about trauma. It's a super interesting parallel. The idea of "metabolic trauma", and now the body has to do what it can to protect itself from that and it overreacts to regular things.

    "emotionally I feel completely wrecked and exhausted, which tells me I need time to recover. "

    I can totally relate. I was super emotional the first months on RRARF, crying a lot and feeling totally lost. Thinking back I do believe it had a lot to do with the increase of all kinds of hormones in the system. It was such a quick and drastic change.

    Chris wrote:
    "It took about 6 months of just eating to appetite of real food for the fat to finally start coming off"
    Wow, this is so great to hear. I know that's what happened to the people in the starvation study, but to hear it today from an actual person means a lot. I'm on my 5th month of RRARF now so hopefully soon things will turn around. I need to show people around me that I've not lost my mind but that this is actually healthy and healing for me. I know I shouldn't care about what other people think, but I do need some support for what I do and how I live. I've gained 20 pounds so far but it seems the weight gain is slowing down at least.

    Undertow wrote:
    "I still have the 3am to 5am waking event, but I do fall back asleep more easily recently."
    I can report the same thing. I still wake up but seem to fall back asleep more easily. Hope this trend continues. I also wake up feeling more tired than when I went to bed. It's as if sleeping totally exhausts me….

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  38. @Kelly Scott: Popcorn with coconut oil and sea salt is enjoyed here almost every night. I love it, and it does lend to better sleep. Of course I usually top it off with a glass of milk and that officially makes it my favorite snack in the world.

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  39. That was a great read!
    I also eat popcorn with coconut oil like Elizabeth Walling, and it's delicious when it isn't trying to get stuck in between my teeth :)

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  40. The poppamacorns in the teefers is definitely the downside. Even if you brush your teeth before falling asleep, they're there in the morning :)

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  41. @madmuhhhh & Chris:

    Would you mind sharing an example of what your daily meals look like?

    Cheers

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  42. @ Josh: I am far from militant with my diet so don't expect to see any magical dairy or wheat free diet, I eat very liberally the only things I really try hard to avoid are Veggie Oils, and most O6, plus HFCS otherwise its all good. I am also careful not to go mental with fat….

    So on a good day my diet would look like:

    Breakfast: Bowl of oatmeal (about 1/2 cup dry) made with milk and water 50/50 plus some fruit inside like a banana and raisans… I have a side of low fat Yoghurt with some more fruit added, sometimes use FF yoghurt but prefer taste of 2%

    I always start the day with 1 cup of strong black tea, which I will add FF milk and 1tsp of Mollases sugar.

    Snack: Usually just a piece of fruit or a oat/fruit bar.

    Lunch: This depends but usually some sort of root topped with beans on tomato sauce and a bit of cheese. Sometimes I just get a baked potato and top it with Cottage Cheese and Salsa. Always have a good portion of salad with lunch (lettuce, tomatoes, carrots, cucumber) dressed with lemon juice and olive oil…..
    Sometimes brown rice sushi when I am trying to eat healthy when out.

    Snack: If I am hungry a piece of fruit, or sometimes a bowl of vegetable soup.

    Dinner: Meat (chicken, Beef etc) with a load of potatoes or rice and again a big ass salad. Will use fat for flavour and lots of salsa, sea salt and pepper for seasoning…. Sometimes I cook a pasta sauce and have it with wholewheat pasta

    On a Bad Day (about twice a week)….. I may end up having a big sandwich while out and about, or having pizza, a heavy curry or really cheesy pasta for dinner and a few beers/glasses of wine when out with friends or at a nice restaurant. Maybe wash it down with some cheesecake…. Doesn't really matter if I do it on occasion now my metabolism burns it right up…. I just steer clear of rancid fats.

    Hope that helps

    Reply
  43. Ahh, my daily meal plan is a bit simpler. I pretty much always eat a huge plate of potatoes with some veggies, some kind of protein, a little bit of fat, spices and salt. I always mix things up a bit, different spice combinations, different veggies, etc. That's basically my lunch and dinner.
    For breakfast I have some eggs, a glass of kefir and, well, potatoes!

    Every now and then I have some brown rice instead of potatoes and I've also started adding in lentils. Also I usually consume one big glass (around 0,8l I'd guess) of beef or chicken broth throughout the week.

    Reply
  44. "getting good at reading helps I read about 20 books a month so keeping up with the 2 blogs i follow is nothing."

    Bah, unfortunately for me, it's kinda exactly the other way around. I soend a lot of time reading, but most of it is some stuff on the internet, which is not nearly as valuable as reading a good book. Honestly there are so many not just good but great books out there, if you don't read like crazy you'll never even read through a tiny fraction of it.

    Reply
  45. I think the problem with low-carb diets isn't the low amount of carbs. It's the high amount of fat.

    In an athlete or someone who is very physically active this would not be a problem.

    But for many of these dieters it is clearly not the case.

    Fat is more calorie dense than carbs or protein. Weston A. Price Foundation/PaNu style diets tend to treat fat as some magical nutrient that is the key to weight loss. In doing so by choosing high-fat foods they are eating a lot more calories than any dieter ever would.

    I think what a lot of these people find is that when they fall down the buttery hills and end up down here in reality, they'll have gained a large amount of weight because they followed a dogma that pretends that calories do not exist.

    I guess that's what annoys me about low-carb diets. Pseudoscience about how humans lose and gain fat. Carbs have to be the culprit, fat is immune to criticism, and weight gain on high-fat is blamed on veggie oils.

    If you want to boost Omega 3's, there's no reason to prioritize saturated fat. Even grass fed sources of animal foods still have very little Omega 3 compared to great sources like fish and walnuts.

    If we're going to let pasta take a hit for having so many calories…we have to go after fat too, it's only rational to see that those extra sources of calories aren't limited to one macronutrient.

    It's not a choice between low-fat high-carb and high-fat low-carb. Just don't be a glutton! And I do think these cult movements do encourage gluttony by giving the green light to eating so much regardless of calories.

    Reply
  46. I was concerned about the belly fat thing when I first started on HED/RRARF. Before I had a kid, I could not gain fat on my mid section. My body put the fat evenly around my body on my arms, legs, backside, back, etc. I could gain 20 pounds and blouses wouldn't fit in the sleeves, but the buttons would button right up. After the kid, I just could never shift that little pouch below my belly button even with crazy exercise, low carb and low calorie I did manage to move 3 inches off my waist. I gained about 20 pounds total with the refeeding, and quite a bit of it to the middle, but I've also noticed that a fair amount of it went on to my arms, legs, etc. I know that bones, muscle and organs have also been the benefactors of some of that weight gain, too. I try to focus on the positives: elimination of those "minor" health problems such as constipation, allergies, bad skin, dandruff, gum disease, lack of menstruation and moodiness.

    Chief is right by the way. It's not a beer gut, it's a stress gut.

    I guess I'm in the same position as Undertow in

    Reply
  47. (I ran out of space.) that I'm taking a long time to heal. That's OK.

    Also, Matt, "eating and living granny-style" is golden.

    Matt#2: sounds like you are suffering from Depression. Refeeding can help that, but maybe some talk therapy wouldn't hurt either.

    Reply
  48. Stancel: eating low fat for years, led to heaps of health problems. Part of it was the processed nature of the low fat food I was living on, but a certain amount of it was fat phobia. Amazing how good I felt, how strong my immune system became and how delicious food tasted when saturated fat was back on the table. Since my initial honeymoon with saturated fat, I've back off from it a bit, because yeah, calories do exist.

    Also you sound a little judgemental with your gluttony this and gluttony that. Enjoy your low fat plastic food!

    Reply
  49. Hey chief,
    would you be willing to share your email address? I just wanna shoot you a few quick questions.
    You can also send me a mail via madmuhhh@gmx.net in case you don't don't think everyone is as cool as me and should know your email address.

    Reply
  50. Jenny,

    I don't support "low-fat plastic food".

    I have read a few comments from people who say they like to eat butter out of the tub. I'm all for enjoying food and not being too strict, but that's a little too weird for me….

    I don't support fat-phobia, or Ornish style diets.

    A lot of these people won't accept that calories matter, they think carbs are what makes someone fat. When you question them on it all they have to say is "read Good Calories, Bad Calories by Taubes". Taubes is Atkins 2.0, guess what he says, carbs make you fat, caloric excess isn't the cause of obesity, it's that demon insulin, exercise doesn't help.

    I'm not the low-fat type anymore…I just people should be smart and not fall for any of this calorie denial crap.

    Reply
  51. Jenny the nipper is on to something.. all the MOMS here.. and anyone in hormonal trouble (raises hand) Know that belly fat is so very tied to hormones etc. After my baby, I had this 'pad' of fat that was there for years, the only time it came off but still did not look "right", sort of wrinkly ( I did not get any stretch marks) was at my lowest raw vegan mania.

    It is too bad Åncel Keys only studied Young Men.
    Sorry kids, but boy parts and girls parts are not just "parts"… we bring all kinds of fun stuff to the party.. and it makes us gain and loss fat a bit differently. IMHO.
    xo
    deb aka granny hag

    Reply
  52. Stancel: many low-carb diets are just low calorie diets. It's easier to cut calories when you are eliminating an entire macronutrient. That's why the most successful diet ponzi scheme in the world, Weight Watchers is primarily a low fat diet. Fat is the most densely caloric food there is. Eliminate it and it is relatively easy to remain within a target range of calories.

    The whole point of this post was that calories do exist. It's not calorie denying because as Matt points out when you cut out half of your calories, it's easy to loose weight. Cutting calories only feeds into the starvation/recovery loop that every dieter no matter their stripe buys into.

    Weston A. Price followers do not all uniformly binge on fat, by the way. I would say someone who eats butter out of a tub has a nutrient deficiency. When my pediatrician switched my kid from whole milk to low fat milk, he started doing stuff like eating sour cream with a spoon and scarfing 1/4 cheese in one sitting. I switched him back to whole milk and he's stopped doing stuff like that.

    Then again as Matt routinely points plenty of overweight not so healthy looking WAPFers out there so being a nutritional perfectionist isn't necessarily the answer to everything.

    Reply
  53. Deb: I'm convinced that much of the blame lies with the artificial hormones that most young women start sucking down in the form of birth control pills often before they are through puberty. That and the fact that women are having kids at a later age and have slowed down metabolisms. I live in the midwest and we have our share of teen mamas here. They all seem to spring back into shape in under a year. Most will have that tell tale under belly pouch though.

    Reply
  54. I never took BC pills.. but I did have Sam at 42 years old. So yeah, the old tummy ain't what it used to be. Right before i got pregnant I was working out like a fiend and just started to get a hint of a sixpack for the first time in my life.
    Yeah, well, like I said, babies/hormones happen.
    I will not give up the ship though, the good ship belly flop.
    xo
    deb

    Reply
  55. on the WAP deal:
    Seriously, people, have you seen Sally Fallon?
    I think she would be perfect for the next Santa Clause movie as Mrs. Claus.
    sorry, I am getting mean now.
    I'm old and Cranky.
    deb xo

    Reply
  56. Question:
    A good step for me in RRARF has been taking a break from exercising- I've only gone to the gym 1-2x a week on average over the past 3 months or so. BUT I reallly realllllyy miss running specifically, and I want to start running again. I'm worried that it will set me back on the progress I've made so far. I know 180 doesn't mean not exercising at all, but I also know posts in the past warn against over doing it.. I don't want to slow my metabolism or decrease my temp, etc. etc. I'm sleeping well for once in my life and I feel great but I'm itching to run.

    Is there anything I can do to make (moderate distance- 5-8 miles) running less damaging to my metabolism and my body?

    Reply
  57. Jaimie,

    judging by you saying you cut it down to 1 or 2 times a week in the gym I assume it was much higher before "RARRFING" I only recommend 2 days a week for well rested/recovered individuals I train.
    I usually tell people avoid it all together at first if they have been training prior to embarking on a rarrf like protocol in order to properly rest. walk a few hours a day at the most.

    for best results you might want to fight the itch for at least a little while, you would be surprised how many weeks it takes for full recovery and 100 % of the adaptive responses to occur in the body in relation to training.

    Reply
  58. DEB, JENNY NIP

    keep in mind in regards to these motherhood related bellies, the act of nurturing a child requires a mother to be always thinking about the future, how safe a child is, how well nourished he or she is etc.
    All of these worries if handled in a bad way can become a serious amount of stress and mimic thoughts of starvation ( a mother and child are very connected) Those of us with boy parts simply have no equivalent to this phenomenon.
    Not to mention overall It's a demanding job as well (my hats off to you moms !! )

    what Im saying is the qualities of a good mom combined with the modern lifestyle can seriously impact belly circumference. I do think it makes sense for survival purposes to have a little bit of fat to be able to feed a baby and have a little spare energy, at the same time I have to assume that if a woman eats really well during the breast feeding stage the body would not "fear" starvation and let it go. I have seen a few moms that "bounced back" after a birth where their sisters who had a different lifestyle but similar genetics and body shapes to begin with had a serious gut.

    Reply
  59. madMUHHH,

    NO PROBLEM, ask away

    JUSTASKCHIEF (at) gmail.com

    that goes for anyone else who may be shy or feel the question has nothing to do with 180 as well :)

    Reply
  60. Stancel,

    I am puzzled by something you said, to quote you:

    "Fat is more calorie dense than carbs or protein. Weston A. Price Foundation/PaNu style diets tend to treat fat as some magical nutrient that is the key to weight loss. In doing so by choosing high-fat foods they are eating a lot more calories than any dieter ever would."

    How does nutritional density cause one to eat more calories in direct relation to how dense it is ?

    I also agree with jenny eating butter by the spoonful is a sign that something is off just like any other time a child instinctively eats anything and everything. The butter craving is just a pre-conditioned reaction. ( subconscious knowledge of its nutritional content to meet the bodies needs)

    I assume you have been slender most of your life as it is those individuals who believe the gluttony theory. I must be what you refer to as a glutton, as I consume way above average calorie amounts.

    Furthermore I have skied some pretty buttery slopes, right here in reality doing little more than sex and casual walks for athleticism, for months at a time and sorry to disappoint you ……. no weight gain.

    Reply
  61. "Furthermore I have skied some pretty buttery slopes, right here in reality doing little more than sex and casual walks for athleticism, for months at a time and sorry to disappoint you ……. no weight gain."

    C,
    ha!
    I agree, for what its worth. The body is not interested in any conceptual ideas such as 'prudence' or 'gluttony' for that matter.
    It simply responds to its neurological and physiological needs. Some folk have greater fuel needs than others.
    You just had to get the sex reference in too didn't you! :)

    Reply
  62. I think there is a lot more to the belly fat puzzle than what meets the eye (so to speak) I hear a lot of hormonal imbalances, which is also something that I think is a key issue in health problems. I would be awesome if Matt made a blog post about hormones (HINT MATT ;-P)

    Chief-

    I totally follow you on the protocol of fighting your urge to train before your body is healed. Like Matt also points out, people who have been religiously into a training regime, can find it hard to go "cold turkey". As for me, I have been a total Gym Junkie but to my surprise I felt a huge relief from going cold turkey! Nor have I had any abstinence what so ever?! Almost 2 months into RRARF and I still have no desire to train (and we are only talking 4mins of Tabata training)??
    My question is; Should I just wait it out? Would my normal desire return or is it possible to have put oneself so much off training (with years of training-abuse)that the body will now do anything to avoid it?

    Reply
  63. Sheila,
    doing exercise releases endorphins and I suspect jamie has a case of "runner's high". So it's a good idea in general to go cold turkey. I have done so simply to prove to people fat loss has nothing to do with energy consumption. ( gained fat on purpose too ..lol)After the experiment was over i picked my gym habits up without a problem.

    I feel that you will eventually hit a point when you feel good, spontaneously getting the gym bug.

    Reply
  64. JR,

    funny thing is people often argue with me saying i must be doing more exercise than i admit too …and I say yea sex! and they laugh and give up.

    I tell em, what can I say though heavy duty sex drive comes with the territory..keep starving if you want to save on birth control ! :P

    The body can adapt to survive on very little but this is not optimum. I think those that are prudent have been "trained" to eat less or actually have a digestion problem. once corrected they greatly increase food intake.

    Reply
  65. Chief-

    Interesting… So people with extremely high sex drive, are possibly the ones with the best working metabolism?
    Makes sense (plus it explains a few personalities from my past… what? I said A FEW) ;-P

    Reply
  66. Anyone stuck in a rut might be intolerant to gluten/dairy and/or overeating too many simple carbs and fruit. Rather than just waiting for the weight to magically fall off you can try the following:

    (1) cut our dairy/gluten
    (2) lower fat intake
    (3) consume starchy carbs like potatoes or squash rather than rice/bread
    (4) cut out fruit if it's not grown locally
    (5) engage in meditation/yoga to strengthen the parasympathetic branch of your nervous system.

    I've done all of the above and lost 20 pounds and feel like superwoman, engaging in HIIT workouts again, and doing circuits at the jungle gym…

    Reply
  67. @Cassandra: I like your suggestions. I think I've been eating way too many simple carbs and I've eliminated those now (and basically anything sweet, which has been challenging to say the least). I'm going to stick with that for a few weeks and see how it works before trying to change/eliminate anything else. I'd like to live with as much variety and freedom as possible, but if something is genuinely holding me back then I do want to be aware so I can change it.

    Reply
  68. Thanks chief. I think runners' high has something to do with it, as well as a fear that my eating will make me balloon and lose all drive/ability to exercise. I think I need to trust the system– it's just hard when 10 lbs ago I was exercising like a fiend and restricting my diet (or trying to). I want my weight to be effortless and I dont want to get flabby(er) the longer I'm away from the gym. 2x per week is difficult b/c I feel like it's not doing anything!
    I think I may look into doing some regular yoga rather than doing cardio 1-2x per week and driving myself nuts over it.

    Reply
  69. Jamie, don't worry, when you are healed you will feel like exercising again. I led the Slug Life for about a year before going back to regular exercise.

    Reply
  70. Since last year and the crazy HED, i have recently dropped to 158lbs… without even trying. At my heaviest i was 170… took awhile to get back to my normal weight after all the dieting i use to do… but i did it!! My friends who haven't seen me in awhile can't believe how i have dropped the weight… because i eat like a mad man…

    Glad i found this website… i would still be in food jail… blah.

    troy

    Reply
  71. ok, sorry if my comments about high-fat diets sounded a bit too harsh. you know with words like "gluttony". I was just trying to get my point across. Hopefully you understood what I was trying to say but I didn't mean it to sound so rude.

    as a side note,
    I expect a post from Matt soon on this
    http://www.marksdailyapple.com/paleo-potatoes/

    interesting how most of his argument revolves around Lord of the Rings.

    Reply
  72. and I'd like to add I actually do think high fat diets can be healthy . I was just saying I think it's wrong to ignore the role of calories in the issue of weight loss.

    Reply
  73. @Stancel: Thanks for sharing that Sisson post! I hadn't caught it yet. I thought you were joking when you said his arguments were based on LOTR. Nope. You were totally serious. That is really, really sad.

    Reply
  74. I think Gollum is the ultimate Grok.

    If you try to be Grok, you'll turn into Gollum. ;)

    Reply
  75. Nice work homies. One of the best threads of comments I've heard in a while.

    Elizabeth-

    Gollum is totally Grok. Super lean and totally f'ed up.

    Stancel-

    If you don't mind, I'd like to unload on you… cuz it's fun…

    The post above shows something very clear…

    Eating a forced low-calorie diet that induced weight loss caused these guys, when eating to appetite, to gain weight above and beyond any level of body fat that they ever had prior. And they gained just as much belly fat as a menopausal or postnatal mama that has run into the same issue (yes, semi-starvation and childbirth, for some, can be likened to one another).

    By pigging out on 10,000 calories per day, these men's physiology later enabled them to eat to appetite and gain muscle while losing fat simultaneously.

    So how do you interpret that? Eat less calories to lose weight, or eat more? One thing is for certain, they had to eat more and gain a bunch of weight to heal themselves, and that's why I advocate doing that here with an end destination in mind…

    Eating a satisfying, mixed diet, with good health as a result and a healthy relationship with food, maximal freedom, and minimal dietary restriction.

    I too ate a couple sticks of butter per day and lost tons of fat on a high-calorie diet with minimal exercise. I also developed health problems doing that.

    WAPF-

    If you look at their promo for this year's conference, you see a big slice of pumpkin pie with whipped cream on it. When I went to a conference I watched the dessert table raided daily like those Gremlins raided chicken wings after midnight.

    It's not necessarily butter love that keeps them from healing their metabolisms.

    But I will say that fat is not some magical substance where the more you eat, the better. Fat soluble vitamins are not hard to come by. You don't have to eat a high-fat diet to get fat soluble vitamins. You can get a lot more by eating yams, salmon, and spinach and sunbathing than you could ever hope to get from eating butter or coconut oil, which are some of the least vitamin and mineral dense foods on the planet – especially modern anemic butter.

    Reply
  76. Madmuhhh-

    I have had this experience too. I hope to delve into this as we move forward.

    While just sitting around and eating hard the adrenals pretty much lounge around. But at the same time I feel like I've built up amazing reserves. As soon as I do any kind of adrenal stimulating I immediately have a huge drop in appetite and increase in energy accompanied by rapid fat loss. In a sense, RRARF can restore your ability to withstand these "stresses." More on this concept soon.

    Chris-

    Thanks for the reassurance here. That's what we're all looking for, and I think to truly achieve that Holy Grail of dietary freedom, metabolic health, and cosmetic enhancement of our physiques it really takes some long-term dedication to ignoring the short-term changes and focusing entirely on health improvements.

    Lisa-

    I can only assume your belly fat gain is reaching completion, and is soon to turn around.

    Sheila-

    Slut!

    Undertow-

    I'm thinking that your core problems are definitely related to adrenal weakness. While RRARF can restore adrenal strength, it may be that a little more adrenal stimulation could do you good. Trying to overfeed and underexercise for 13 months straight is probably way too long. I think you'll find if you do resume exercise and what not you'll see more positives and less negatives than you did in the past. I know for me recently, doing some hiking and a once-weekly weightlifting session has given me countless signs of increased adrenal activity, but my adrenals just feel much stronger and more capable now.

    Like, for example, I've had exercise-induced asthma for over a decade now that is exacerbated by altitude, cold air, and starting rapidly. No signs of it whatsoever hiking up a huge mountain pass with 40 pounds on my back at sub-freezing temps the other day. Complete disappearance.

    When it comes to adrenals, I think they can recover pretty quickly, get recharged, but then need to be used again to get all their anti-inflammatory, energizing effects. At least, that's how I feel at the moment.

    Jamie-

    The above comment to Undertow kinda applies to you as well. I think you definitely want to get to a place where you are losing body fat and gaining muscle with very little or no exercise and eating to appetite of a mixed diet as step 1. But once you are antsy as hell, health is good, energy balance is easily maintained spontaneously without effort – then yeah, go run. We don't need to be paranoid about using the ol' adrenals. There's just a time and place for rest, and in today's modern world of stress combined with lots of drugs, stimulants, refined foods, and the pervasive notion that we should restrict our diets somehow and exercise to the point of exhaustion – RRARF is good medicine.

    Sisson's tater post-

    I read that. Good to see him with a sense of humor, pointing out that the fat hobbit was the one into taters the most. I'll also note that the tater eater was the most upbeat, happiest, compassionate, reliable, and caring hobbit.

    But he should note that in the real world, 99% of the several billion lean people alive on planet earth today eat a starch-based diet.

    Based on his assertion that carbohydrate consumption in excess of 150 grams per day causes "insidious weight gain," he should say that being Asian causes "blond hair," being African causes "fair skin" and that being Mexican causes "inability to grow a moustache."

    Reply
  77. Hi Matt!
    I've been wondering for awhile how people on a wapf get fat. So are you saying its because they don't practice what they preach eg limit the sweet stuff- the dessert tables being popular? Or is it that they eat too much fat? I didn't get fat on their diet. But then I'm a vata type- I'd have to eat an industrial diet to get fat.

    Reply
  78. Well, I don't want to rail on them too hard. Most people were fat before they got on the WAPF bandwagon. When you see someone, you don't know if they have gotten a lot healthier or not. The yardstick for good health these days is not whether you have health problems or not, but whether your abs are visible or not, which makes the whole health/nutrition/diet/fitness industry pretty much a complete joke.

    Where I live if you can run a marathon you are healthy. Whether you menstruate or not, are mentally sane, have tooth decay or acne – that doesn't matter!

    So yeah, I think we should just drop the whole WAPF-er bashing. Otherwise we're just pulling that Paul Chek mindset of saying that anyone without a 6-pack is clueless, and being bald is healthy if you have visible abs.

    Note: Nutrition and Physical Degeneration had a bunch of pictures of people with no 6-pack abs and lots of thick, healthy hair and teeth.

    Reply
  79. So can I start eating 4k plus calories every day of delicious whole foods and only gain fat till a point, then have it start to fall off and build muscle instead of storing fat. I just don't get the fine line of whether I'm eating too much (calorie being king) or If I haven't been eating enough over bmr so when I do I store fat. I need to state again, that the amount of fat I'm storing isn't all that much.

    Those damn bmr calculator sure produce a small number. I can eat that number in one meal.

    This is a very interesting thread, and I'm sure post to come.

    Reply
  80. Been planning on adding back in some high intensity Abel style workouts soon.

    Will be curious to see how it affects sleep, complexion, etc…

    Reply
  81. On the nutrition/Physical degeneration vs modern WAP people:
    I read a lot of Real Food bloggers, mostly moms with kids, and I see a lot of rapadura, soaked grain baking going on. and I understand wanting to 'health up' foods that kids will eat easily.

    BUTT (sp is intentional) I would agrue that using ANY sweeteners in excess, or any baked goods to excess would give you a big butt.

    The tribes Weston a. Price photographed had nothing of the sort, six packs or not, they were mostly fairly lean if I recall. I don't think they were eating sprouted spelt rapadura sweetened muffins..

    xo
    deb

    Reply
  82. Cassandra Damiris said…

    I agree with all your suggestions, as they mirror my ow , except for fat restriction, I don't feel that's an issue for 99% of people unless they have some crazy recipe for butter soup or they dip there lutherburgers in garlic butter. No evidence in the people I've coached supports this idea. I think for most it will only lead to a restrictive mentality and is really only a step away from what got most of these people into this mess in the first place.

    Like jenny said in regards to her son's butter binge there is a reason for the craving. Your tastes are the best judge of macronutrient composition. Eventually from what I've seen the body seeks to balance any overage of sources by making you crave it less given that the specific craving is not MSG or other type of chemically induced response.

    The weight "still magically" comes off in the same way as it would waiting, only with all the other things you mentioned the healing process is greatly improved.
    Ultimately the belly that refuses to leave like the last drunk bastard at a party, is simply a sign the healing is not done.

    I recommend something similar even from the beginning not waiting until the dreaded bastard is hanging out in the first place.

    Reply
  83. Will, Calorie is not even a jester ….never mind king

    you body knows when it is too much it'll count them for you provided you eat food and not inventions.

    Reply
  84. Stancel,

    I have to strongly oppose you because it will help many others in doing so. If you have experienced going from from fat to lean and stayed there then I really do want to hear a deep explanation of your calorie density causes fat gain theory it may help me in my quest.
    I cant possibly know it all but I cat tell you from experience, as far as counting or restricting calories it is futile.

    I ignore calories on a daily basis. Perhaps it's just a placebo effect but it sure works in those I coach …… repeatedly for weight loss when I tell them to ignore them.
    It is true that a negative energy balance is required for fat to leave in accordance to the laws of thermodynamics but how you go about achieving this loss is a whole other thing. I'll tell you the easiest and least harmful way is to disregard the calories altogether and let your body do the math. It has all the information that you consciously cant possible ever have without some new inventions or really keep track of. counting calories It's like being a back seat driver with your eyes closed. (sorry jenny needed a car analogy :) )

    Anyone that does not believe me and has weight to lose put me up in your house for 45 days (food included lol)I'll show you the light!!! ……. fine print( 180 readership required offer subject to change at any given time..haa )

    Reply
  85. Maybe you're right. It's probably exercise that matters.

    Getting myself to be physically active has been a problem. I'm used to relying on diet.

    I read about the calorie intakes of certain cultures and they're sometimes 3000 calories. I'm too scared to even eat 2000 calories.

    Maybe I should. And get physical too…

    Eating less is not going to give me the body I want, is it…because in the end I want a muscular fit body and all I feel is flabby and fat. even though I lost 100 lbs already. I'm 5'9'' 185 lbs. I don't care about having a six pack….I just don't want to look in the mirror and hate myself anymore.

    sorry if it seems like I'm talking to myself I'm just very introspective

    Reply
  86. Stancel,

    exercise can help and it can hinder it is not the end all be all.
    I have demonstrated in the past by losing considerable amounts of weight without exercise, eating in excess of what is considered recommended daily intake.

    If you heal yourself first .. your body will spontaneously want to be physical, if you are fat or skinny and starving your body will avoid any excessive output of energy.

    judging by what you have said .. you have indeed been starving and are most likely still starving.

    you need to play weird al yankovic at high volume!

    Reply
  87. cassandra

    i meant to quote you …lol accidently deleted the quote in my last post ..ooops

    I think i understand why you avoid non local fruits, but im curious to what extent? do you dodge apples from the okanagan which i think 90 percent of toronto,s apples come from there. or is your level of "local-ness" dependent on a certain radius.

    sheila,

    don't listen to matt nothing wrong with a slut…. only something wrong with dirty sluts :P …sluts = high metabolism HIGH 5!

    Reply
  88. Chief I like you analogy on healing with the last drunk guy at the party made me LOL but so true…..

    Also good to see Troy back! was wondering what happened to the 180 original……

    In terms of strengthening PNS I would strongly suggest all people to try and do some deep breathing lying on their backs for 10 minutes per day. Simple set a timer and lie down breathing through the nose into the belly for a count of 5 in and 5 out. This really strengthens the PNS especially after a month of doing it consistently.

    Reply
  89. "While just sitting around and eating hard the adrenals pretty much lounge around. But at the same time I feel like I've built up amazing reserves. As soon as I do any kind of adrenal stimulating I immediately have a huge drop in appetite and increase in energy accompanied by rapid fat loss. In a sense, RRARF can restore your ability to withstand these "stresses." More on this concept soon."

    Something just clicked for me. This totally explains why I have so much energy when I'm going to the disco and am dancing all night (while consuming no or just a small amount of alcohol). I'm basically one of the few who always wants to stay the longest, simply because I have the energy for it.

    Also, about that Sisson post:
    Matt that post shows very well why the cognitive dissonance you practice is so important. You have to be constantly willing to challenge your beliefs or something like that will happen. You can really se what went on in Sisson's mind before he posted that:

    He has a strong belief:
    Carbs are the devil and make you fat

    He finds evidence that challenges that belief:
    There are a lot of healthy, thin populations out there who eat carbs are healthy and very lean.

    He somehow distorts that evidence to make it fit his beliefs:
    You really cannot compare those poplulations to modern society. They are just so much healthier, never encountered processed food etc. Of course carbs won't make them fat.

    Upon closer examination this is an ultra-weird argument, because it basically destroys the whole notion that paleo is based upon. That we simply need to model and imitate the diet of our paleolithic ancestors to be healthy. He says we cannot model the Kitavan diet, because so many carbs might be harmful. But who says that the same thing can only be said for carbs and not for fruit, nuts, meat, fat or whatever? Which part of our ancestors diet are we supposed to model and which not?

    Reply
  90. Matt and Chief-

    First of all, I don't know where you get this; Me-being-a-slut theory from?? -It was THEM who had the high metabolism, not me (shut up, it makes sense in my head)! ;-D

    Second; The word slut, in danish means: The end, so I don't really know where you two are going with this.. weirdos! ;-P

    Reply
  91. "I ignore calories on a daily basis. Perhaps it's just a placebo effect but it sure works in those I coach …… repeatedly for weight loss when I tell them to ignore them."

    C
    whether it is so-called placebo or not doesn't matter, in my opinion.
    In my work, I see regularly, pertaining to matters healing, when a major shift in perception occurs (or when something that has long been held to be true falls away), so too changes physiologically. The mind/body unit is not separate and healing does not discriminate one from the other.
    Also agree with your sentiments that the body always acts for homeostasis.
    Enjoy your comments.

    Reply
  92. J.R. i agree the mind is a powerful thing I have seen amazing things change from mental effort. ..I was making that statement more to sarcastically express my position. I believe something else is at play with the calorie ignorance.

    Reply
  93. Sheila,

    maybe slut in danish is the end … because when someone fails to find a mate their default choice is the slut at the end of the line. :)

    Reply
  94. OMG, so much to comment on.

    WAPF bloggers like nourished kitchen post an occasional dessert but most of what I see is great. Matt's 180 kitchen book has no desserts in it all though which says something. And when I eat 180 style resisting dessert is easy. Having said that, I stayed up till midnight last night making a stupid cake for a stupid charity bake sale/raffle thingy at work. Mostly when I eat sweets its a social thing.

    Sluts. Interesting thing about the broken metabolism and sex drive. I shudder to think what would happen if my metabolism were properly fixed. I wonder how all those skinny fat trophy wives manage the sluttiness. Maybe they just really like driving Mercedes Benz's.

    And Chief's offer to move into my house for 45 days sounds great, though I'm not sure how my husband would react to totally hawt Indian dude making pemican in the guest bedroom.

    Reply
  95. Hey Jenny, maybe he wouldn't care if it helped your sex drive. ;)

    Reply
  96. Chief-

    Ha ha ha! ….DAMNIT (this is not THE END of it)!

    Jenny-

    I'm with Elizabeth here! I think your man will appreciate it! :-D

    Reply
  97. Chief-

    Thanks for giving this blog a recharge and a much needed snap back into reality. It was real going out and exploring things like carb cycling, low-fat whole foods diets, and what not – but my conclusion about all that stuff is it's all pretty much crap.

    You can't think or sciencify your weight any more than your breathing long-term. Not without health consequences and easy rebound weight gain that is.

    High FIVE is right.

    Jenny-

    Just tell your husband that Chief is a big pro football prospect and is going to a local high school but is homeless. Make him watch that Sandra Bullock movie, which will keep him busy.

    Everyone-

    Ignore calories just like Chief said, whether trying to overfeed or lose weight or whatever you want. Give your body every possible opportunity to undergo positive hormonal changes that discourage fat formation and encourage energy and heat production and muscle formation. That's all we can expect to use our diets to achieve in terms of long-term effortless physique enhancment, and I know with absolute certainty that taking such an approach yields far better health, happiness, and disease resistance.

    On WAP-

    He never mentioned sprouting or fermentation once in his book. He did mention specifically that honey, molasses, sugar, and other sweeteners could easily ruin an otherwise great diet. A true Weston A. Price Foundation would acknowledge that and act accordingly.

    But I think more current research points clearly to the fact that most people who suffer health problems in the modern world are likely to from refined food overconsumption rather than butter, raw milk and calf liver underconsumption – which seems to be more of their primary platform.

    Reply
  98. Chief is so gracious to offer his services to the ladies.
    I think maybe he is just trying to burn off a few lbs with his "bringing sexy back" approach.

    Having been a "slut" at various stages of my life, I can say that you can do that at any weight.
    Now LOVE, that can burn some serious belly fat.
    and marriage, sadly, seems to add it right back on.
    Oops, gotta pretend I am reading Martha Stewart.. hubby is coming!!!!!
    xoxoxo
    deb the hag of the universe

    Reply
  99. you guys are hilarious,

    DEB,
    that was an offer to girls and guys alike, no mention of cuddle therapy or sex training. :) I meet my metabolically induced needs a little too well without sneakin my hand in anyone else's cookie jar.

    JENNY, tell your hubby not to worry ,
    I'm not down with O.P.P. and especially not Ontario Provincial Police either ( they love getting me for DWI driving while indian

    Reply
  100. Oh Chief, what would we do without you?
    I suggest you have some t shirts made:
    W. W. C. D ?

    :)

    ps: some cookie jars are just full of crumbs anyway.
    Just an analogy.

    Not talking about anyone I know.

    eh hem. cough. yeah.

    Reply
  101. Matt,
    In other news, did you guys see that Lady Gaga has added some poundage?
    This after telling media how she "starved" herself to fit into her costumes all through 2009.
    I think she needs a RRARF intervention.
    And you are just the man for the job.

    Here is the photo evidence from the superficial:
    http://www.thesuperficial.com/i-think-lady-gaga-beat-that-eating-disorder-10-2010

    later y'all
    deb

    Reply
  102. Matt thanks ,

    high five back ! it was weird stumbling on this blog,
    I was feeling a little Mr AV ish , being so against the grain. I actually showed this site to a person I'm coaching and it was enough to convince em to give it a go because I'm not the only one that thinks this way.

    Make him watch that Sandra Bullock movie, "which will keep him busy.". .keep em busy ???damn matt don't give em any ideas!!! I have enough trouble already with my house calls

    soon as i get done with my current commitments at home, i think colorado would make a good pit-stop i have a few ideas I'd like to throw your way in person and judging by some of the food porn kitchen videos …looking forward to that spread :)

    Reply
  103. DWI…

    I love it.

    And WWCD is up there with it.

    Acronyms laden with sexual and racial humor. I am in heaven. My cortisol is dropping like a stone.

    Actually Deb, lady GAG-a is the pefect spokesperson for RRARF. We'll feed her so hard she'll be showing us her Puker face.

    Reply
  104. Chief-

    I'm about to go on a Chiefy vision quest of my own. A little more romping in the woods before the snows come and then I'm off to NashVegas, TN and then onto Florida.

    If I find some Seminoles in the Everglades with a buffet table I'll send you an e-mail and we can eat an entire alligator together.

    Or you can meet me at Walling's house in Alabama. She's gonna cook me up some squirrel and possum stew when I come through first week in November (I hope).

    Reply
  105. perhaps crumbs from a homemade cookie would be better for your health than a fresh out the package box of oreos….

    Reply
  106. Matt,
    funny i was gonna do a mini vacation in florida in the next month… Id try to hunt an alligator …cortisol dropping adventure lol

    possum stew huh ? doesn't the traditional recipe require that it be roadkill ? im down for a 180 convention as long as pork or bear ain't on the menu…i wonder about possums never seen any don't know their eating habits …I'd eat squirrel but never had to do it .. those buggers are pretty hard to trap not worth the effort

    Reply
  107. I've gone squirrel hunting with my husband a couple times when we were teenagers. He swears I ate squirrel jerky with him, but I think I would remember that.

    There's been a lot of racoons on the road lately. I'm sure we could scrape up a few and fry 'em up.

    Reply
  108. omg road kill soup. Yikes.
    I think I will stick with my yams.

    Matt: I love Lady GAG-a, that's a good one.

    Oh to just write witty puns and comebacks all day. My dream job would be just like that.

    So I guess I am living my dream. For Free.
    hmm.
    good thing I have my cosmo liscence so I can make some dough.
    xo
    deb aka Lady Haga

    Reply
  109. Deb,

    WWCD ? what would chief do ? when it comes to diet ..i eat ! :) non diet affaires, it's usually something semi-crazy though like jumping on a plane to L A after losing insane money in the business world, with like ten bucks in my pocket (cant let a plane ticket go to waste lol) and somehow having enough money to buy a house in saskatchewan on my way home :) it gets crazier trust me …

    when I'm lost i go left cuz 2 wrongs don't make a right but 3 lefts make a right :)

    never eat yellow snow and don't buy a car you cant push
    and always be nice to nerds and geeks , one day they may be teaching your wife how to lose weight and making pemican in your spare bedroom while you watch blindside.

    Reply
  110. Some of my thoughts Regarding WAP, reading his Nutrition and Physical degeneration, he recommends half a teaspoon of cod liver oil, and half a teaspoon of butter oil PER DAY. Then he recommends drinking whole milk too of course.

    But it's not like he said in his book for people to eat huge amounts of fat.

    I think we have lost our instincts about food that took thousands of years for the tribes to develop via trial and error and also using superior senses like the Aborigines who had amazing eye sight for example. They could probably tell immediately if something was good for consumption or not, and how much of it was needed. (Just not able to avoid refined foods when they got introduced sadly…but part of that was also having no other choice due to loosing their land etc.)

    Reply
  111. Matt, I'm so glad to hear that your asthma is gone!!! Do you think that might indicate that your Control Pause increased (ie your body's oxygenation ability) by itself when your body began working more optimally? As I understand it, a higher CP usually gets rid of asthma.

    Reply
  112. My asthma's a funny thing Lisa. It always comes and goes with hard exercise. This time very convincingly so in only about 2 weeks of hard exercise.

    I figure I have naturally low adrenal production, which is why I grew up with asthma, allergies, and other things that can be easily eliminated with a good shot of cortisone or pseudo adrenaline (like albuterol inhalers).

    Adrenal boosters make it all disappear as if I never had them. Yet, overdoing it causes my adrenal output at rest to fall even more.

    In the past using hard exercise against asthma/allergies was more of a 1 step forward, 2 steps back affair. We'll see how I maintain it this go around after serious adrenal rehab over the last year. I'm hopeful.

    Chief-

    Gator it is. I look forward to it. And who are you calling a nerd? When I was younger I beat up all the other kids, was the captain of every sports team and president of my senior class, and got crappy grades. John Robbins's Food Revolution was probably like the 8th book I read in my whole life :)

    Deb is en fuego.

    Elizabeth-

    I've had squirrel. A little tough but would probably make a really nice, rich broth. Scoop up those raccoons quick. A roadside raccoon in Bama won't be there long.

    Reply
  113. When people start talking calories, many of them forget that it's an equation. Yes, calories count. But if your BMR is 1500 calories and you eat 2000 cal, a day, you'll get fat. But if your BMR is 4000 ca/day and you are eating 3000, you'll lose weight. Those calories that you consume affect the way that your body burns them. Matt's post explains why this is so.

    Reply
  114. Real will
    only problem with looking at it as a simple equation with 2 values to consider (bmr and intake) is that there are way to many variables in the human body.
    It also assumes that the BMR is fixed and does not change on a daily basis which I have seen this change happen. as well the body also creates muscle from some of the food.
    therefore increasing food intake more one day than another does not mean fat gain will occur.

    yes calories count in a very arbitrary sense as they are necessary to create fat but for body composition goals one does not even need to know what a calorie is let alone be able to calculate them.

    see this experiment for some evidence of what I mean.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5liKz1X-Tw&feature=related

    watch at least till they discuss martin wong who gains no fat going all out glutton style

    But the whole 7 part video series is quite interesting. they say it is mostly genetic but i feel this can be circumvented.

    Reply
  115. Real Will-

    It's definitely more complicated than that. Look at the Ethan Sims prison study. One dude gained only 9 pounds in 6 months eating 10,000 calories per day with no exercise and he was only about a 150 pound dude. The others were similar, and all achieved calorie balance on 10,000 calories per day by the end of the experiment, and all of them easily lost the weight afterward.

    It also takes out the human RESPONSE to those calorie imbalances between BMR and intake, or what I call the Appetite:Metabolism Ratio.

    Like for example in the series Chief links to…

    Overfeeding caused these guys to lose weight rapidly one month after the experiment. It had no appreciable effect on their weight, but I suspect they ended up with a little more muscle and less fat from going through the experiment.

    Underfeeding the Ancel Keys subjects made them get fat after the experiment.

    So the two studies, taken as a whole, show that the only way to make a thin person fat is to STARVE them for a prolonged period.

    I couldn't agree more.

    Reply
  116. Chief, you are missing my overall point. I was trying to simplify things because there are other factors such as activity, caloric cost of digestion, etc. that all goes into that balance. And of course all of this fluctuates throughout the day. My point was simply to illustrate that 1) calories count, as has been proven in metabolic ward studies and 2)to explain why one person can eat more than someone else and lose weight while another eats less and gets fat. We both are actually saying the same thing but explaining it differently.

    I watched that entire video series before. My thought when I saw that video and saw that Martin Wong didn't gain fat was that if he was eating a traditional diet, it may have been low in protein and the increased calories and protein increased his muscle mass and increasing his metabolism. Just my thoughts on what was going on with him.

    Reply
  117. Matt, you're missing my point too. If someone is eating 10,000 calories a day and not gaining weight, they are burning 10,000 calories a day, whether it is from exercise, increased metabolism, etc. (or it is passing unused through the digestive tract). I agree with what you are saying. When someone lowers their caloric intake, their metabolism slows and when they return to their previous higher caloric level, they get fatter because their BMR is now lower and what previously was equilibrium is now a calorie balance. I don't see the disconnect between what we are both saying.

    Reply
  118. Damnit Will. Just argue with me you rat bastard!

    A good way to look at it is to say that altering calories, one way or another, is ineffective at altering weight set point.

    But even that isn't necessarily true. Lowering calories seems to raise set point, and increasing calories like the men did during refeeding seemed to lower set point over time.

    That was one driving force behind the original creation of RRARF.

    Perhaps it would still be effective, even with those that gained considerable weight, if more patience was inloved with more of a long-term view.

    Reply
  119. Will-

    Tell chief your experiences over the last year and a half with overfeeding followed by carb cycling. They are very interesting.

    Reply
  120. It's funny you should mention blindside. Graham is kind of a Sandra Bullock fan. She's the only actress he admits to having a crush on. So one time my crazy Cary Grant buddies made him a pillow case with Sandra's face on it to match my Cary pillow case. Which I don't sleep with by the way, cause that's just weird. It is in the guest room, though….so Chief can enjoy it…

    Lady Gaga's current snaps are making me feel a whole lot better about my body. I still find her a less- talented Madonna, which is saying something.

    Reply
  121. I will never argue with you sensei!

    Chief, I did the HED thing for about 3 months and got the fattest I had ever been. I was going to stick it out a bit longer but I got to the point where I was having trouble breathing. I wasn't the heaviest I had ever been, but definitely the fattest around the middle. I started carb cycling and I started losing inches off the middle regularly. You aren't supposed to do for a long period but I stuck with it for a long time (I'd have to go back and look…maybe 9 months or so?). I lost 6 or 7 inches off my waist in that time but the fat loss definitely slowed down over time. Looking back, I probably should have went off of it for awhile and went back to keep up the progress but after awhile I just got tired of doing it.

    The carb cycling method I used was from this article…

    http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/par30.htm
    http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/par32.htm

    I used the lifestyle cycle and it was the easiest diet I was ever on and was never hungry, never counted anything (calories, carbs, grams of anything, etc.) and never had to eliminate any macronutrient of any kind.

    I haven't been really watching anything in the way of what I eat other than eating mostly whole foods and I have put some of what I lost from my waist back on, but I'm not "full fat" yet, LOL! I drink a couple of big glasses of wine with dinner every night so one of these days I'm gonna cut back on that! I just started some weight lifting again after not working out regularly since last Dec. I'm doing a bodypart split covering the whole body over 6 days. Each workout is about 2 to 4 work sets taken to failure and takes a whole whopping 10 minutes or so to complete. I'm only about 2 weeks in but I'm getting stronger so we'll see how it goes.

    Reply
  122. didn't you see Sidekicks matt… just find some crazy chinese dude and drink his shitty smelling tea, and train with chuck norris using your imagination! That should take care of that damn asthma.

    troy

    Reply
  123. Okay, so I had to leave a comment about the photo. I just can't believe someone would get a tattoo like that.

    It is defientaly in the mind of the beholder

    Reply
  124. will,

    you make well thought out comments so I didn't assume we were on a different page. unless you have a different understanding of how they "count" than I do.?? I wasn't refuting …. the only reason I added to your statement was due to the simplification of the process can cause the idea to be seen as a reason to monitor calories for the less informed readers of this blog… if " count" means counting them has a long term positive effect, these readers will get into a bit of trouble.

    btw , which metabolic ward studies are you referring to ?

    i have played with carb cycling and it works much in the same way fasting does in conjunction with weight training. Just like you mentioned I feel it is annoying to organize and keep up and can have negative impacts. not to be attempted without weight training and a minimal amount of metabolic correction.

    Reply
  125. jen,

    not into pillows really, see if the real sandra needs cuddle therapy … i could heal 2 birds with one rock

    Reply
  126. Hey Matt
    I am SO relieved you have come back to your fold! I was starting to worry about homelessness. Chief is shamanistic, its scary! Carb cycling, fat restriction-total bollocks!
    Thanks so much for answering my questions vs wapf. The only reason fat and wapf is an issue for me is that Sally Fallon said somewhere that menopausal and post menopausal women should 'expect' an extra 10lb weight gain and a thickening middle. As a post menopausal woman I know from my experience this is bullshit. And I don't believe my body chemistry is different from the rest of the human race.
    And thanks too for the comment that Price never mentions fermentation in his book- I hadn't realised that. This is relevent to me as now I can freshly grind my grains, I am not bothering with fermentation-which I do not like the taste in grains-but just soaking, combining high phytase with high phytic grains.
    I'm not up for wapf bashing- I think they are good people with alot of good ideas. They go wrong on some minor points but their overall outlook is helpful, imo. Unfortunately I see in my wapf yahoo groups that paleo is taking hold there. This is sad.

    Reply
  127. Its weird but I think gaga looks better fat. I wonder if she gained the same weight eating food rather than oreos if she'd look even better, less lumpy?

    Reply
  128. Deb
    I do not buy your surrendered wife act. Pretending to read Martha Stewart is so passive aggressive- you know all men hate her. I love her. Loved her even more when she turned out to be a tiddlywinks thief. Didn't stop her from having the most fabulous inside of a linen closet in the known universe.

    Reply
  129. Sydney

    what's your process for grains ? I'm guessing your talking about breads if you are grinding them ,would love to hear your thoughts, It doesn't need great detail but whatever you feel like sharing :) would be great.

    shamanism?? :P Im not rubbing blood and chicken livers on bellies claiming to rip the ailment from inside by using a ouija board …..

    Reply
  130. oh you kids!
    totally kidding about Martha, she is pretty fab.
    Interesting on the Sally Fallon "menopause =10 lbs of fat around your waist" theory.. cuz I think she is buying that hook line and sinker from the looks of it.

    Yeah, you know, I am tired of all this hormonal blather.
    Let the Games Begin,
    Lady Haga xo

    Reply
  131. Chief
    My whole mo is that everything has to be easy and suitable for a single person. So not much on the yeast bread front. Wonder if it sort of defeats the purpose of fresh grinding-to make a loaf you eat over a few days. But apparently the Swiss who Price studied had their bread made once a Month! I have just been making buns, mostly from spelt, (sometimes rye) and using baking powder as the rising agent. Do not know if baking powder is a bad thing. I would imagine yeast would be a nutritional rich thing. I use egg white stiffly beaten as the wetter and let the dough sit for an hour or two (apparently this is long enough to get rid of the phytates in these particular grains, if freshly ground). The reason I use the egg whites is to use them up as I have 1-2 raw egg yolks in my raw milk keefer daily and have the whites left over. The jury is out on if raw whites are dangerous- Adele Davis says in'Lets Eat Right To Keep Fit' that biotin deficiencies were created in volunteers given 1/2 cup of powdered but uncooked egg white with really horrible symptoms including suicidal tendencies. All symptoms diappeared in 3 to 5 days after biotin was added to the diet. But she goes on to say that in a later study as many as 36 fresh egg whites were given to voluteers who failed to show any abnormalities. I'm just playing it safe for now.
    I also have gruel sometimes(but usually flakes) which I soak over night from roughly ground grain.

    Reply
  132. I have found an interesting site- the whole grain council- who have thumbnails of studies comparing whole grains with refined ones. The one that caught my attention said how whole grains had been effective against gum disease. I'd read the ADA (I think thats them- the establishment US dental association) said whole grains were bad because they get between teeth and under gums- ie not accessable by tooth brush. I know Nagel writes about a man with wicked amounts of plaque who had great teeth underneath- who was eating a good diet. My limited experience of people following a traditional diet is that they don't have plaque at all, even though brushing is not part of their repretoire.

    Reply
  133. Deb I MUST know!how fat is Sally Fallon?- you only see head shots on the net.

    Reply
  134. Chief You do not have to make any claims to rub blood and chicken liver on my belly!

    Reply
  135. The best solution I have found to menopausal symptoms is to fall in love and have lots of sex. I'm full of practical suggestions, I am.

    Reply
  136. syd: I can see in her face that she is a chubbette. On the book cover of Nourishing Traditions she is noticably younger/thinner. So I am making an educated guess. Try Youtube for more body shots :)

    unless I have a torrid affair your menopausal advice falls on deaf ears over here
    xo

    Reply
  137. "The best solution I have found to menopausal symptoms is to fall in love and have lots of sex."

    Sydney, I think that would solve just about any problem. ;)

    Reply
  138. SYDNEY ,

    I have some much sought after massage skills, but blood n liver is not my idea of a good massage oil ..lol

    damn you have some egg separating skills .. i would think its near impossible to have 0 % white.
    ill look into that study adele quotes … interesting thanks.

    ELIZABETH,
    It solves a lot of em .. I have seen it even solve my lack of home-cooked meals :P The way to a mans heart is a tough road when you eat as much as me :)

    Reply
  139. Checked fallon out on utube and shes not overly fat, a bit chubby. It was her comment on the implied inevitability of middle-age women getting fat that irritated me. But I'm not convinced that a few extra pounds is detrimental to health.
    Chief in telling you about my grain consumption I forgot to mention I eat a small amount only like 1/2 to 3/4 cup per day. Today I was reading The Healthy Sceptic and he has some convincing arguements against grain. I hate reading these things! I love reading these things! I'm confused!

    Reply
  140. Sydney

    you said.. "I hate reading these things! I love reading these things! I'm confused!"

    I know how you feel. I assume no verdict will be out any time soon. In the meantime it would take a lot of definitive arguments to get me to give up corn :) ..oh cornbread ! I <3 you…. mmm smothered in gravy ….. civilizations have eaten grain for 1000's of years and had no sign of diseases of civilization. i don't think grain is the major issue in health concerns today. maybe for extra credit

    thanks for the info by the way :)

    Reply
  141. there's need to be something out there that helps to reduce the lower belly fat without that much exercice. I hate abs exercice. I'm considering buying those machines that do the exercice for you. I'm not lazy I workout all my body. I just don't like abs.

    Reply
  142. the best way to reduce your stomach fat is you have to carefull about your diet.Stomach fat is arguably the biggest reason people work out and try to lose weight. People hate how they look and feel when they're dealing with fat around their bellies, and many strive for "six-pack" abs. reducing stomach fat isn't something that can be done simply with crunches, though. You must work hard in several ways to burn off the fat and keep it off.

    Reply
  143. Personally, I like the little tummy I have, and I’d rather it stay that way—little. So, I’ve started working out. Evidence is starting to prove the theory that lifting weights and using the aerobic exercise will help you reduce belly fat around your midsection. A healthy diet is also a good idea. So, I’ve summarized here a list of things you should take into consideration if you’re serious about losing that tummy. If you are experiencing stubborn belly fat that never seems to go away, we have an article about that too

    Reply
  144. Long time lurker. Victim of nasty belly fat over past year following like 30#’s that flew on me after my divorce and ED issues. Starting this all slowly. Former low carber and terrified to gain more so I am starting to have 1 main meal per day, eating whatever i care for. My belly is already there, and always was there even at a slim 125 (im 5’4″) and now am around 175ish :( but hoping hoping that some supplements ie: Maca root and this whole “eating” thing might make things turn around.. but my belly is very abnormally large compared to the rest of me which is pretty normal :/

    Reply

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