Wheat Belly

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Ah yes – as the low-carb world gets semi-erect (that’s all they can muster) over Dr. William Davis’s release of his book – Wheat Belly, it’s time to take a step back and calm down over this whole wheat and gluten thing.

Before we begin, let’s please all try to keep this in perspective.  180DegreeHealth offers many things for many people.  And I can’t help but take perhaps the greatest satisfaction in helping young guys who remind me a lot of myself, to keep from making the same dumb mistakes I made – or at least help them recover from the world of dietary extremism that they were drifting towards prior to finding 180D.

I’ve already done two posts on Martin, aka The Belgian Jackhammer.  The first was about the start of his recovery from a period of vegetarianism and fasting followed by a long stint of full-on ZERO CARB under the guidance of Charles Washington (Skeletor).  The second post came more recently as the Belgian Jackhammer shared some actual lab results showing a 120% increase in testosterone, a drop in uric acid levels, rock-bottom clotting factors, and a 72 point drop in total cholesterol (with a rise in HDL) that he experienced when switching from zero carb to a wheat-based diet.

During this, Martin was able to become a regular kid again.  He could hang out.  Have pizza.  Have some beers with the guys.  And his speed, strength, muscularity, leanness, and sex drive all went through the roof as expected with that large surge in man juice.  In short, the kid ate his Wheaties, and is acting and looking like an Olympian.

Coincidentally, I had some burgers with Half Navajo a few weeks ago, another guy in more or less the same boat when he found 180, who noticed the same changes when switching from low-carb to a diet based mainly on pizza, burgers, and Rocky Mountain region microbrews (inspired by the great beers of Belgium).  He’s lost 25 pounds eating that while just enjoying life, and the arms hanging out of his shirt are covered with veins.  At 5’9″ and 145 pounds, there’s not an ounce of fat on him.  I’d say the two leanest 180 followers are both eating the same diet – mostly wheat and beer.

Anyway, that’s not to say that wheat isn’t a problem for some people.  Sure it is!  And while some can eat wheat and actually see their swollen bellies get smaller and smaller from eating wheat, others can see it get larger and larger.  Beer has obviously been responsible for a few bellies too.

Nevertheless, what drives me up the frickin’ wall is seeing wheat portrayed as the root of all evil, and the predominant cause of the obesity and/or diabetes epidemic.  The new black sheep.  If you can write a book called “Wheat Belly,” then you should be able to write a book called “fill in the blank” Belly.  There are many paths to a swollen belly.  Cortisone injections, Prozac, antibiotics, on and off the wagon jogging, Mountain Dew, dieting, adding carbs to a prolonged ketogenic diet, etc.

Note – before Dr. William Davis became a type 2 diabetic with a swollen belly, he was doing a lot of unwanted exercise (jogging) and dieting (low-fat vegetarian I believe) – two activities that have a much closer link to such health problems than wheat consumption.

But who cares about what causes each person to have a pot belly?  Sure, maybe some people do get it from eating wheat.  It’s plausible.  What chaps my ass is that this wheat hunt ignores the many negative symptoms that some people, like Martin and myself, experience from eating a low-carb diet – the proposed blanket solution to eating a wheat-heavy diet according to Dr. Davis.

In fact, Dr. Davis may just be inspiring me to write a book called “Low-Carb Dick,” with dual meanings.  One of them relating to the negative emotional side effects frequently experienced while restricting carbohydrates.  The other relating to something experienced by me and Martin before pizza saved our pepperonis… before spaghetti saved our noodles… before… (I wanted to come up with something about bagels, but could only come up with advice for women seeking to please their men… “Screw Kegels, eat bagels!”).

So anyway, here’s Martin attempting to eat an entire 16″ pizza with his friends cheering him on (actually, they were trying to psyche him out so that they didn’t have to pay for the thing and buy him beer after).  Feel free to fast forward to the end to see if he did it, and to see him flash his wheat belly while personally addressing you.  That’s right you – the “180DegreeHealth followers…”  Oh, and pardon Martin’s “French,” but he took this challenge very seriously!  “It’s not an effing joke!” he says at the beginning…

Learn how you can RAISE YOUR METABOLISM.


  1. I have Matt belly!

  2. I hear that other countries don't have the hybrid wheat we do. Perhaps Martin is doing well due to that? Peaty says carbs are good too.

  3. Matt, thank you for saving me from my low carb nightmare. I was eating roughly 20-50 grams of carbs per day for an entire year and GAINED 20 pounds before finding 180D.

    Thanks to you and your work I now eat fruit, wheat, corn, rice, and other carbohydrates I was previously avoiding. I feel great, no longer obsess about my diet, and have finally started to lose weight.

    Avoiding wheat and carbohydrates is a sad, ill-advised, and harmful way to live. I'm so glad for your voice of reason among all the low carb insanity out there.

    Thanks so much for all you do!

  4. That's quite interesting. As grass fred momma suggested, I'm also curious about if various types of wheat act differently with people.

    That being said, my tolerance of wheat has improved drastically. It doesn't go down quite as perfectly well as potatoes and cream and I usually feel some mild distension, but it's hardly noticeable.

    I have a very similar body type to Martin, but with a bit less muscle. I've actually dropped 15 pounds since stating my completely sedentary job a year ago, staying up late and eating mashed potatoes all day long. Most days, I eat 6-8 potatoes and probably at least a half stick of butter, and beef. It's strange, I'll go from eating two medium meals a day and being active (which is rare) to three large meals and being sedentary, and it never has any effect on my weight or health. Actually feel better being sedentary and eating more for some reason.

    I'm 6'1" or 6'2" and 170lbs. Albeit, 19 years old, so I'm not a convincing example. Everyone at work is shocked daily with the food I eat.

    I think Matt is right. Carbs are great and butter is amazing

    On that note, I also remember a friend of mine from a few years ago. She's quite active, but has stayed skinny on a ultra high carb diet. She would eat gobs of pasta or any sort of wheat bread on the table, and even peanut butter and some more questionable things. I was counting calories at the time and couldn't figure it out.

    Keep up the good work, Matt! I miss reading your posts more often, but you've got me healthy enough that I no longer compulsively read health articles trying to make myself healthier. Things just seem right these days and I finally have it figured out :-)

  5. I have Matt belly too!! Can't wait for my body to do what it's supposed to do and get rid of this Matt belly.

    • That sounds exactly what I would say. Just waiting on my body to do it’s actual job!!

  6. I am wondering what you think of this study http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21621801 Two groups ate isocaloric diets, one with whole grains and one with fruit, and the group with fruit lost more weight. It seems to me that this means that grains are not particularly good foods in comparison to other foods, and unless there is a reason why people should eat them then they can be deemed to be unhealthy, or at least sub-optimal. Wheat germ agglutinin does induce leptin resistance, and it is pathological, regardless of whether or not you get fat http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16336696. Lots of things factor into the propensity to gain weight. Perhaps whole grains are even helpful in the context of diets that are otherwise deficient in various nutrients like magnesium and fiber, but does this mean that we should treat it as a healthy food or make statements like that excluding wheat is dangerous? In the absence of any good reason to include it over other foods this seems to be an untenable assertion. We certainly aren't dependent upon grains for anything.

    It might be helpful to remember that your anecdotes about the key to weight loss being to eat a lot of junk food sound equally insane as Dr. Davis's anecdotes about the key being to eliminate wheat, and yet that is basically the only argument put forth here, that and that apparently very low carb diets are bad for some people. However if you would look closer into the issue you might find that while energy expenditure drops at very low intakes of carbohydrates, it does not with moderate intakes, 50g for example http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/42/1/197.abstract, and let's be safe and go for 100g for some exercise.

    Perhaps if instead of doing your usual wacky extreme diet and screwing up, you adopted a carbohydrate intake at the middle range of what someone like Mark Sisson (who you criticize, based on your own blundering, not his) recommends you would have fared better, the science certainly seems to point that way.

    There are going to be some people who are going to be reasonably healthy even when they eat junk. This does not mean that the junk that they eat is not aging them prematurely and accelerating the onset of disease. You are young, and it is most likely that your anecdotes in 20 years will sound a lot different than they do now.

  7. Thank Matt for carbs. Low carb = low weight but cold and disinterested. Adding potatoes and bread = Matt belly, but the ability to get my bagel on… excuse me, time to give hubby another bagel. It's a fair trade.

  8. Sure this guy eats beer and drinks pizzas occasionally, what does he consume the rest of the time?

  9. Jack: "In the absence of any good reason to include it over other foods this seems to be an untenable assertion. We certainly aren't dependent upon grains for anything."

    You could say the same thing about any food. Why eat beef? People have lived just fine without beef and it may be healthier according to many "experts," to eat the heart-healthy polyunsaturated fat and not artery-clogging saturated fats (regardless that beef fat is mostly mono).

    Tezza, some gluten-bashers say it's worse to eat occasionally than once a day or more. The wheat-bashers do not admit that they have a damaged metabolism and the body can heal if given right nutrients, rest & time. They don't even admit that healing is possible. They talk about wheat germ agglutin and test tube studies and rat studies, as if that settles the whole matter, and we can ignore healthy groups, like the Sikhs and Hunzas, who ate fresh whole wheat – as opposed to rancid flours and the bleached/enriched garbage that most stores and restaurants sell.

    Matt, Half Navajo, and others don't want to be limited if they can find ways to heal. Martin Berkhan, from LeanGains, would say it's all about calories and not wheat or beer. But some people are damaged definitely, and have to be more strict.

  10. How about consuming carbs in the form of potatoes, rice, quinoa and other non-wheat sources whilst eliminating all white flour based products?
    I'm with you about the nonsense of low carb diets and that wheat is the sole cause for the 'pot bellies' but (eventhough I only have anecdotal evidence) I have seen with myself and my family, numerous ailments (allergies, psoriasis for example) completely disappear by only eliminating wheat flour from our diets. Considering that coeliac disease for example is a test for one type of antigen there could be some validity in the concept that many people are reacting to other components of wheat than just gluten but are not yet testable

  11. Wow, Jack.

    Talk about selective reading. Or is it tunnel vision; a single-minded, reductionist focus on weight loss?

    You cite this study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21621801, and state, truthfully enough, that the fruit group lost more weight. But then you dive off the deep end, exclaiming:
    "It seems to me that this means that grains are not particularly good foods in comparison to other foods, and unless there is a reason why people should eat them then they can be deemed to be unhealthy, or at least sub-optimal."

    I must rhetorically ask "How on earth does the study support that conclusion?" Sure, the fructose group lost more weight, but health is more than the sum of ones BMI. Observe that the study included "Blood pressure, lipid profile, serum glucose, insulin resistance, uric acid, soluble intercellular adhesion molecule-1, and quality of life scores… as 'secondary outcomes'."

    And they concluded: "Compared with baseline, each intervention diet was associated with significant improvement in secondary outcomes." In short, there is nothing in the study that lends support to your statement that grains are "not particularly good foods in comparison to other food,…" In fact, according to this study, outside the narrow world of weight loss, grain would appear to be on equal footing.

  12. Its all about balance and portion. If you cut back your carbs you have to cut back your cals, and watch you wont have a problem, and forget the high fat. High fat means in another way, you will get fat, maybe not today but eventually. So. Mr. Matt stone. if I decide to chuck a bagel out the window, I'm ok with eating some with fruit, then maybe kegal. Different strokes for different folks! ;)

  13. I think a lot of nutritional gurus develop tunnel vision in one way or another – one reason to follow lots of them and not just one! I don't think Dr. Davis has the whole answer, but I also know if I ate the 180 way I'd pretty quickly once again be sick and pushing 400 pounds.

    I sometimes think it was providential that at a point in my life I developed GERD, nausea, daily vomiting, diarrhea … which doctors could do nothing about except offer me a lifetime of daily Prilosec. It was on my own that I found eliminating wheat from my diet made all the symptoms vanish almost instantaneously – and by keeping my carbs on the lower side, increasing my good fats, and mostly avoiding wheat, I've been able to lose 125 pounds (and still losing) and improve my health in every way.

    My sister's landlord has MS. As long as he avoids wheat he manages well. Is fit, active, etc. If he eats wheat in so much as a single sandwich or slice of pizza he's back in a wheelchair for days. Yet he tests "negative" for celic, as do I. Yet both of us are infinitely healthier when we avoid wheat.

    Hey I love pizza as much as anyone, especially Chicago-style. I just know if I eat some I'll enjoy it, but will also pay with a few days of diarrhea, heartburn, and depression. I really think there NO "one size fits all".

  14. ahah… I believe I tried to say "it's not a f**** joke but then I had my mouth full and was too focused on the pizza to speak proper English LOL.

    Didn't expect that 180degree health was so hard to pronounce either LOL

    Take care you guys and I hope to have entertained at least a few among you. Make no mistake : it was really hard, it took me 6 hours for the food to leave my stomach and I burned my mouth while eating lol.


  15. And yes I am actually an English teacher lol. But then I am not always watched by my friends while being filmed and facing a massive pizza ! I can speak better than that ;).

    And it may not look like it but it was a bit stressful, they had all talked about it for 24 hours and were putting a lot of pressure on my shoulders so that I would win( NOT lol)


  16. Jack,

    I think that study is as useless as most studies. Who cares what happens on a calorie-restricted diet? Obviously calorie-restricted diets are not something that apply to anyone here. And calorie-restricted diets are always useless without monitoring the after-effects.


    The 180 way? You would go up to 400 pounds eating a whole foods diet built around unrefined carbohdyrates? I'd like to see that. Where in my materials do I say one should eat a lot of wheat, pizza, refined breads, pasta, and beer?

    Just switching a dog to a new dog food is enough to give it diarrhea and presumably heartburn for several days. Anytime you introduce a food that your body is not accustomed to eating it can cause distress. That's one of the justifications for not eliminating any food – so that one can eat all foods without negative consequence.

    What does Martin eat the rest of the time?

    Martin eats mostly whole wheat pasta. Like I said, he eats a wheat-based diet.

    Half Navajo told me that he eats, and this is almost a direct quote…

    "Mostly pancakes, pizza, burgers, and beer."

    Again, you are missing the point to all of this. The point is that these kids were in a state of metabolic ruin. They didn't need to be eating a barbaric "health diet," but needed to live their freakin' lives and escape from dietary prison.

    Will they suffer health consequences later in life from eating this way? Maybe, maybe not, but that's better than suffering from health consequences every day of your life from eating low-carb, which is exactly the state they were in when they found the site.

    Once again, don't anyone get me wrong here. I do acknowledge that wheat is a problem for some people, and that wheat may cause abdominal obesity, diabetes, immune disorders, etc. in some people – or, more accurately, that it can trigger those issues due to an underlying hyperinflammatory problem with a more mysterious and unknowable cause.

  17. You should seriously pack this nutrition shit up. Your examples are ridiculous, your theories are full of shitty n=1 examples and your followers are still sick as shit. The only thing you are good at is loosening people up about their OCD dietary habits. Pack it up with your ludicrous theories about and face the facts Mr.Stone. There are plenty of examples of skinny people who drink beef and eat plenty of wheat which doesn't mean jack. Low carb diets are a joke but so are you.

  18. @Anonymous (8:45:00 AM MDT)


  19. Hey matt, I've recently switched to a high carb(mostly fruit,juice,potatoes)and im experincing bouts with diarrhea. Any idea how long this might last? Its been 3 days so far and my energy has been awesome, but the runs shortly follow my meals!

  20. Matt, responding to Jack and his studies, states:

    "I think that study is as useless as most studies. Who cares what happens on a calorie-restricted diet? Obviously calorie-restricted diets are not something that apply to anyone here. And calorie-restricted diets are always useless without monitoring the after-effects."

    Ha Ha! Exactly! I was initially going to say something like that myself, but decided to demonstrate that even if the study were taken seriously (it shouldn't be!) that it does not support Jack's conclusions… Mostly 'cause I get tired of reductionist tunnel vision, and like to reveal how absurd such a view is, even on their own terms.

  21. Charles Washington as Skeletor.


    We need to make a movie where health gurus are played by various cartoon characters. That would be a hoot!

    I nominate Aajonus Vonderplanitz being played by George of the Jungle.

  22. I eat plenty of wheat in my high-carb diet and am one of the leanest girls I know, on extremely minimal exercise. Totally flat stomach. The other day a (male) friend called my body "amazing" and could not believe it when I told him I don't hit the gym.

    Not saying my health is totally flawless, but I had a very damaged metabolism from an eating disorder and healed it eating wheat among other foods.

    I agree that being unrestrictive is really important. This book actually makes me angry because I am sure it will induce many people to go low-carb and worsen their health. Probably what most people need is to listen to their bodies and just eat whole, unrefined foods in moderate proportions (i.e., a balanced diet).

  23. Yes, we just got a new dog and switched him from whatever crap they were feeding him to raw meat. He doesn't know how to eat it, and has the runs like crazy. He also won't eat his veggies. He has to learn how to enjoy a whole foods based diet and have his body adjust to it.

    Or maybe I should conclude from his upset tummy that dog food based on corn and rancid industrial oils is better for him that raw meat.

    Some peoples problems with wheat may be due to eating poor quality, rancid stuff. Maybe they wouldn't have problems with fresh ground wheat. Just like I can't eat industrial corn, but fresh organic corn is fine.

    And low weight does not equal health. I had a great weight before 180D. I didn't notice how low starch (I ate plenty of fruit) was destroying me though, until months later, when the light bulb clicked on and I realized that many health problems were gone. Most notable was the sex drive returning (along with all that weight). I know I keep bringing that up, but I did not REALIZE that it was missing until it suddenly came back (less obvious in a girl, hmmm?). Sure, I'm n=1 too, but there are many of us on here who have been "saved" by Matt. It was easy to stay skinny without wheat and potatoes. It wasn't easy to stay healthy, but I THOUGHT I was doing great (just a few nagging issues to clear up), like Matt's other hyperchondriacs.

  24. His leanness makes me slightly jealous, and super hungry for pizza. Although I certainly feel better than I have ever, I'm at least 15% body fat.

    You know, I've read on here simple stuff like "if you over exercise, when you cut back on it you'll gain weight", but I've not read a more detailed explanation as to why. I know it has something to do with "stress hormones" like cortisol. Have I missed it? I'm asking because Hawaiigirl's comment on how she gained weight when she started eating starches reminds me of my observation that EVERY time I reduce a stress (be it from not enough fat, too many carbs, not enough sleep, etc…) I always gain at least a little bit of fat and muscle. Yet, the more stressed I am, the leaner I become.

    the thing that really sucks about "moderation" is that I'm not a moderate person whatsoever. I jump headfirst into everything I choose to do and go balls out until I reach a point where I don't feel like doing it any more. For instance, if I want to drink beer, I'll drink as much as I want nightly until I feel like taking a break (I'm talking a 12 pack a night for several days, maybe even a week, then switching to maybe a drink or two once a week, if that). There have been several times where I'll just eat ice cream for the day because I feel like eating a lot of something sweet, or have eaten nothing but croissants for lunch. Either this behavior is indicative of my remaining imbalances, or what I'm doing is completely fine. Any thoughts?


  25. Hmmm… Thats pretty much what i said when i hungout with matt… minus the pancakes so much! Burgers, pizza, beer, homemade hashbrowns, eggs, mashed potatoes, orange juice, fruit, milkshakes, ice cream, homemade soups, steaks,… pretty much whatever i feel like whenever i feel like it!!

    I also told matt that me being at my weight when i was 20 and even more muscular didn't mean i was healthy as i could be, and he agreed and thats where RBTI comes in. I feel great right now and i am living life to its fullest, but i am thinking longterm now, and especially when i have kids.

    My girlfriend is a great example of eating the food also… She was too skinny when i met her, and hypothyroid. She started eating the food with my encouragement, i told her not to care about her the weight gain, because i didn't. And BAM!!! Her sex drive was back, her muscle mass came back, and she got the fat right where most girls want it to be put, and alittle put on her belly.

    Now its time to tweak everything… and i think RBTI is a great tool to do this… Its not restrictive in a sense… eat all kinds of different foods, its just the eating schedule thats alittle tough. Caring around my distilled water and lemonade hasn't been trouble at all, and if i slip here and there… fuck it!


  26. OH yah!!

    The less i worked out, the more bodyfat i lost, and i retained all my muscle… just from lifting weights once or twice a week for 20 minutes, and rock climbing once a week! Other than that hiking, jumping off cliffs into lakes, and riding my bike leisurely around denver!


  27. Half Navajo,

    Do you have a blog?

  28. Anonymous Matt Hater-

    I seriously don't know any skinny person that drinks beef. I don't know any fat person that drinks beef either. I don't even know how one would go about drinking beef.

    I do know a lot of people that see someone able to eat what they want and be not only leaner but healthier doing it, and they get jealous and throw a big tantrum. This tantrum often includes writing angry things and forgetting to correct typos, like saying beef when you really mean "beer."

    But this is all understandable, as I displayed similar behavior when I was on a restricted diet.

    I don't really have many "theories." Davis is the one theorizing, while I present facts. It is a fact that me, Troy, and Martin (and hundreds of others that I have communicated with) have several health problems on a low-carb diet that disappeared with the reintroduction of carbohydrates. Inconclusive and poorly-performed studies, as well as theories, isn't going to change easily observable fact.

    I don't need a study to confirm to me that carbohdyrate restriction causes loss of sex drive and reduced sexual function in Matt Stone. I don't need a study to show me that lack of sleep makes me grumpy. I don't need a study to show me that excessive endurance exercise lowers my metabolism… again, these are all facts, not theories.

    And if they affect my body in such ways, there is a chance they affect other people similarly, and that there is some universal physiological basis for it.

    Some people may have the opposite response. That's fine too. I am acknowledging individuality more and more the longer I spend doing this health shiz.

    And when one realizes the breadth of these physiological differences, and also the endless factors in how food interacts with our bodies, it becomes obvious that any simple one-culprit theory or book about a single big, bad, wolf needs to be shot down immediately before too many people take is seriously. You know how people are. They read one thing about a certain food and panic. Then another. Then another. ONe day they wake up and their lives have been taken over by their diets and they are 10 times unhealthier than they were when they started.

    Stopping this unecessary food phobia and obsession that leads nowhere is what we are celebrating here. I don't think I'll be packing it up. I'm needed more than ever.

    • “They read one thing about a certain food and panic. Then another. Then another. ONe day they wake up and their lives have been taken over by their diets and they are 10 times unhealthier than they were when they started.

      Stopping this unecessary food phobia and obsession that leads nowhere is what we are celebrating here. I don’t think I’ll be packing it up. I’m needed more than ever.”


  29. Mo-

    Welcome to the mo carb diet. It can take a while for the digestive flora to adjust. If things haven't improved in a couple weeks let me know.


    Who's gonna be Captain Caveman? There are so many in the running for it.

  30. No blog yet… been thinking about it for the past couple years though… wouldn't be about health completely, Matts kinda got it taken care of though.


  31. Matt,you bring these two young men as your example of people with ruined metabolisms?Its like the infomercials with before and after pics of people that the majority of watchers would kill for the before look. :)

    Martin was very lean when he started the meat only diet and was trying to get rid of his candida looking skin infections.People were telling him that they would LOVE to look like him and that it was all in his head.Half Navajo never looked unhealthy and they both are young.

    You never mention how so many of your faithfulls also went the opposite way with your high everything diet.Why not show some before and after pics of twenty people from your HED days.

    I am in no way agreeing with wheat is bad….just saying…

  32. Lorelei has proven her stupidity. Hahaha! She thinks dogs need veggies. What?

  33. Dogs are not obligate carnivores. You have no CS. Wolves and coyotes in the wild eat a variety of fruits and veggies, not just meat. I used to watch the coyotes raid our produce in the garden.

    Cats, on the other hand, don't eat veggies.

    Do you even know anything about feeding dogs naturally? Or do you just want to feel smart?

    • I was thinking the exact same thing when I read that comment. “Common Sense” obviously has issues living up to that name. He/she is likely feeling like a bit of an idiot right now, and rightfully so. Glad you stood up for yourself :)

  34. Hawaii Girl was being facetious about the veggies.


    Those weren't dudes with ruined metabolisms. They were guys whose health was suffering due to carb restriction (and in Martin's case, vegetarian eating and fasting as well).

    Lots of people gain weight on HED. I've talked about that at great length. Everybody knows I gained weight (although I wasn't following my guidelines to do that). HED isn't about being lean. HED is about not being depressed, constipated, devoid of sex drive, unable to sleep through the night, and other issues that stem from diets that are "low" something.

    You can't see that in before and after pictures. Before and after pictures are retarded and something I almost never put on the blog. Because looks don't mean very much when it comes to health. I am much healthier and happier when I'm not looking my best.

  35. Sorry Matt, not too facetious :).

    Since I can't feed my dogs the stomach content of herbivores, roughage is actually recommended. Wolves don't eat veggies in the wild per se, but they do eat shoots, grass, etc. And stomach contents. They don't need a lot of produce, but a few veggies and fruits here and there are good.

    Like anything else, I spent months researching how to feed naturally before I actually made the switch. Then some blowhard who wants to feel like they're contributing riles me up. Hey, it's a very low sugar moment.

  36. Thanks Matt! Im still catching up on your blogs. Im still trying to wrap my brain around the rbti stuff. Im looking forward to the release of your RBTI package!

  37. throw some hate bait out, and catch a whopper! Look Hawaii girl, if you were so smart in your research, you would not still be looking for answers. take it from someone breeding, working and showing dogs for 25 years. And feeding all raw. Including raising pups raw. they don't NEED veggies.

  38. @Matt

    "I don't even know how one would go about drinking beef."

    One word: Vitamix.

    Also, thanks for convincing me to get one, it is the sweetest.


    Don't let yourself get trolled so easy. =)

  39. @Common sense
    Take it from someone with 25 years of experience?


    Also, Humans don't NEED veggies, either. In fact, all we need is fat and protein at the end of the day, and even then we don't need all amino and fatty acids. Doesn't mean there aren't benefits.

    Unless, that is, you purposefully experimented for many years with hundreds of dogs to determine what makes them look and perform their best. I would be very interested in seeing your research.


  40. Of course dogs don't NEED veggies. Dogs don't NEED meat either. They can do fine on a completely vegetarian diet. There are also breeders who feed their dogs only dog food, and they raise and sell pups. Dogs don't NEED raw meat either. Just like with humans, there are so many viewpoints on how to feed dogs… NEED has nothing to do with optimal, and as Matt has shown us time and again, there is no one way – for humans or dogs. That's why I stick with Matt and do my own research. To learn – to get more answers – to do better in the future. Nobody knows it all, not even you. You can be as smart in your research as you want and still not have it right. Otherwise we'd all know how to be perfectly healthy by now. Why are you here, if you already know?

    dcx :) Yeah but there ain't nothing better than venting at some unseen internet hack.

  41. Time to go drink my beef.

  42. A few months ago, I knew that carbs were toxic and Matt Stone was a douche. But I had the metabolism of roadkill.

    Now I'm RRARFing white rice and fruit, chugging OJ like Ray Peat, and slamming root vegetables like a starving Kitavan. My energy is returning and my hands are slowly warming up.

    So I understand and appreciate Matt's rejection of low carb BS. I also understand that plenty of people appear to have no problems with wheat, and I'm not endorsing the claim that wheat is fattening. Nonetheless, I have zero desire for wheat, and given my history of nasty allergies, ain't no way I'm touching it until I see good rebuttals for the claims that — at least in its modern incarnation — it causes leaky gut, allergies, and auto-immunity. (See Paul Jaminet's articles about wheat at the Perfect Health Diet site for a better summary than I can provide.)

    Any thoughts, Matt?

    Thanks for helping me escape my own personal Antarctica.

    Sir Eat-a-Lot

  43. So, it does make some sort of sense for me to lose weight while eating my dark chocolate reeses, sitting on my butt, and watching Dr. Who? . . .Don't forget the chocolate covered graham crackers (don't ask whats in them, I don't want to know.) Incidentally, back when I was in college, after I broke my foot in more places than the doctors could count, I lost a lot of weight sitting around with my feet up, only eating Little Debbie Cloud Cakes, drinking a 20 oz. sprite, and milk every day. I lost about 30 lbs doing that. I didn't intend to, it just happened. Btw, it wasn't my idea to eat those foods, thats the only thing I could eat. Don't get me wrong, I didn't have an eating disordered mind, my stomach wouldn't digest much.


  44. Matt Stone, you bring practical provisions in revolutionary times.

    People that read your message looking for another dietary dogma will be greatly disappointed and will try to burn you at the stake, but those that realize we are all unique and that no single authority can save us will benefit greatly.

  45. Just out of curiosity, does Half Navajo and Martin eat pork?

  46. Sir Eat A LOT-

    Repeated inflammation and stress in a body that has a low tolerance for stress and inflammation is the cause of autoimmune disease. That's why wheat and other foods that allergy-prone people often react to can TRIGGER (not to be confused with CAUSE) autoimmune flareups.

    What I do know is that my ex developed an autoimmune disease eating a wheat-free diet, and overcame the autoimmune disease eating plenty of wheat.

    The difference were the causal variables changed. The CAUSES were a combination of death in the family, graduate school stress, low-carb/low-calorie eating, and marathon running all combined together. That's what causes the body to break down. Plus, she was naturally weakly-constituted.

    When she fixed those her body got healthier, and the autoimmune condition disappeared without a trace, regardless of what individual foods she chose to eat.

    So I don't buy into these oversimplified theories on autoimmune disease. The root of such disease is much deeper than "gluten exposure."

  47. Matt,

    I absolutely, 100% unequivocally agree with you about the health of one's body being the prime determinator of how well certain foods are digested and metabolized. Getting your body healthy may take time, but once you're there you know and don't feel any fear or guilt about eating anything.

    I think about how human beings spread out and inhabited the entire planet over thousands of years. Couldn't have happened without incredible digestion and the ability to adapt to broad array of diets.

    Perfect digestion should be the ultimate health marker. We have access to a year round supply of quality food. Even if you can't get something fresh it's usually available refrigerated, which does a good of of preserving nutrients in the short term.

    Wheat fear sucks. I understand that most grain food is crappy, but there are healthy options, and making white flour products a small part of your diet isn't a problem for most people.

  48. Swede posted that last comment. Had so do it anonymously to get it to go through?

  49. wheat has carbs but carbs don't equal wheat. carbs from the right sources are great in my opinion. i wonder if matt read this book. sorry if it was answered in the 47 comments but i didn't have time to skim all the comments.

  50. DML: "I was initially going to say something like that myself, but decided to demonstrate that even if the study were taken seriously (it shouldn't be!) that it does not support Jack's conclusions… I get tired of reductionist tunnel vision, and like to reveal how absurd such a view is, even on their own terms."

    The idea that we don't need to eat a particular food is empty to begin with. No food is eaten universally, AFAIK, so pure logicrefutes such an argument. We can not determine the optimal diet for all by process of elimination. Because anything that we eliminate or include is totally arbitrary, like diet itself.

  51. Matt: "I seriously don't know any skinny person that drinks beef. I don't know any fat person that drinks beef either. I don't even know how one would go about drinking beef."

    Haven't you read Aajonus's books or forums discussing this idea? AV has more ways to eat meat than an Inuit has words for snow. Blends, purées, patés, liquefied meat, sliced meat, cubed meat. He has "drunk" meat and advised sick people to do it to get down the amounts they need to heal.

  52. Lorelei aka Hawaiigirl: "Do you even know anything about feeding dogs naturally? Or do you just want to feel smart?"

    Chill out and read again carefully what Common Sense said. He/she did not say dogs DON'T eat vegetables, but they don't NEED vegetables. In theory, that's true for dogs and humans. All nutrients can be found in meat, esp wild animals or grass fed ones, and perhaps even meat in general (who knows what quality of meat Stefansson ate in Bellevue).

  53. Lorelei: "there ain't nothing better than venting at some unseen internet hack."

    More like mis-reading a comment and over-reacting based on mis-reading, then assuming that someone's a hack because of that mis-reading.

  54. Well Bruce, I tend not to chill when people start out with name calling. Personal eccentricity, I guess.


    Back to our regularly scheduled wheat programming.

  55. I have not read Dr. Davis's book. I have followed his blog pretty carefully for 2 years now, so I know where he stands on most things. He likes to say that wheat causes blood sugar spikes. I like to tell him that I did something that made my blood sugar no longer spike when I eat wheat. But he doesn't really read comments or respond or anything. Just likes to make broad, sweeping generalizations that are totally sensationalized and taken out of context and then retreat to his steak haven.


    I think Aajonus prefers the term "Blenderizing." Don't rain on my funny joke. I've read plenty Vonderplanitz. And sat around eating whole chickens until my jaw was too sore to continue. All in good fun.

  56. Sick article!- I can relate with these guys. I've never exercised, always over-eaten when given the opportunity, am 6'3" ~190 lbs and have been feeling way better and gaining weight in the right places (my brain, mostly-jk) since incorporating 180 degree practices into my life (mainly accepting my urges not to exercise or restrict macro-nutrients, and enjoying myself). I ate fairly low carb during my teens, with many, many uncontrollable pizza binges (which I though was terrible at the time). Thanks again Matt, I will be a 180 follower forever! The path of least resistance really fucking rocks!

    Also, if you guys wanna be "pissin clear" like durainrider says you should, 3 or 4 IPAs always do the trick for me. ;)


  57. dcx said…
    OCTOBER 4, 2011 6:21:00 PM MDT

    "Don't let yourself get trolled so easy. =)"

    So, someone is a troll for making a statement that dogs [don't need] to eat vegetables, i.e. can survive in good health for a long time without them? You and Lorelei are trolling, you mis-read something and then use straw man arguments based on that & call someone else a troll. (Re-read your diatribe.) "Relax. You'll live longer." Not everyone who disagrees is a troll, hack, or liar.

    Anonymous said…
    OCTOBER 4, 2011 7:07:00 PM MDT


    If someone is breeding dogs for 25+ years, they are an authority on the nutritional needs of a dog. If you dismiss them as a hack or liar, you should dismiss Matt and everyone as a liar and moreover seek counseling for paranoid delusions, IMO. If you can prove that Common Sense doesn't breed dogs, we could find plenty of other breeders with the same view – feeding dogs raw meat and no plants at all. What did Common Sense claim that was not valid? He said dogs do not need vegetables, or implied so.

    "Also, Humans don't NEED veggies, either. In fact, all we need is fat and protein at the end of the day, and even then we don't need all amino and fatty acids. Doesn't mean there aren't benefits."

    Good points, which don't refute any thing that Common Sense said. WAP's research and Stefansson's anecdotal findings suggests that vegans don't have as good teeth. Someone said we don't need animal foods and can get missing nutrients from supplements. That is a gamble. We don't know all the nutrients in meat, fish, dairy, eggs, and other foods. We certainly don't know all the co-factors which work with them.

    "Unless, that is, you purposefully experimented for many years with hundreds of dogs to determine what makes them look and perform their best. I would be very interested in seeing your research."

    So you get to decide what evidence is meaningful and ignore any things that don't fit your little box? You can't find any long-term controlled experiments that meet your criteria on humans and probably none on dogs or primates. Plus, it wouldn't give you any idea how the animals FELT – Matt's criticism of pictures can be used against most studies. They did not measure subjective feelings. If people have to choose between being happy, warm, and calm at 200 pounds or cold, tired, depressed, and over anxious at a 150, that decision can be considered a lose-lose.

    • “Lorelei has proven her stupidity. Hahaha!”

      This is likely the reason why she countered the comment. And her reaction wasn’t out of sorts in any way. Just because you wouldn’t be affected by someone suggesting you’re an idiot doesn’t mean others should be expected to react the same way. And she never said dogs need vegetables; she was simply defending her original comment. Why you keep bringing it up is beyond me. Also, who cares what dogs need? It was an analogy, and has little to do with the original topic.

  58. Stupidity is not a name, but I will agree his comment was over-the-top. People have said a lot worse about Matt and others here and they were not called hacks, accused of lying about their experience, or being a troll by multiple people. I try to learn from everyone. Don't pay any attention to names and attacks, it doesn't effect me at all.

    I am after the truth, not winning a debate. The truth matters more than being right. True, dogs do not need vegetables, nor do humans. We don't need seafood. Healthy tribes lived without it. Saying we need anything or don't need it is opinion or it's simply irrelevant. We don't need to eat anything, no food is universal, but we have to eat something. It is arbitrary.

    Hence, saying that wild animals or primitive humans eat something does not prove they need to eat it, you are assuming they know everything – what they do and don't need – never eating anything useless or harmful or superfluous or frivolous.

  59. hotdog! ..lol, wait, i must have missed something… dogs are usually carnivores, btw.. how did this get started?!
    FTR, I prefer organic, free-range dogs, personally- they do munch grass and stuff. ;)
    Hawaii Girl- <3 i would never disagree with you, btw.

    -The PUNisher… "get it?"

  60. There is no real disagreement, just miscommunication, IMO. Common Sense said Lorelei exhibits stupidity for thinking dogs "need" vegetables (an idea she didn't express). Then, she pointed to wild dogs eating plants, a non-sequitur that doesn't prove a "need" for such vegetation any more than gnawing on tree bark proves an animal "needs" it. CS said that he had 25 years of experience breeding and showing dogs. CS was dismissed as a hack and troll and accused of "appeal to authority" because of 25 years of experience and study.

    If you think Common Sense is lying, fine. Prove it. Otherwise accept it at face value and move on unless he says something provably false. Dogs and humans don't need vegetables is true, AFAIK. Even if Common Sense's claims of 25 years experience are a lie, we can find other breeders who say the same thing and feed all raw meat no-plant-food and have healthy and beautiful dogs. Drop it.

    BTW, I'm surprised Matt didn't spot the Arnie quote. Relax. You'll live longer. (Doug Quaid, Total Recall)

  61. Mercury, that's what I thought too. Although, some herbivores will go out of their way to lick burnt bark for it's mineral content (salt-licks too, obviously). This is a sign of the animals "needs". I don't think it is too far fetched to imagine a dog eating grass as representing some kind of nutritional satisfaction being met.

    FTR, I have over 23 years of dogsperience and will say, free range is better- no question.

    Thanks for the Total Recall insight, that one flew over my head.

  62. ..you guys are my best friends, through thick and thin (.get.uh, nevermind..) we'll always be together….[..] bla bla bla, having fun all day, we're palin' around and laughin' away. were best firends…godamn IPA diet… <3 whoops, hope i don't regret this in the morning… i doubt it..
    -The PUNisher…

  63. after year of LC i started HED.
    10 lbs in a month. just before the summer..
    but eating my guts out. these patatoes..
    couple of months latter i am eating mainly carbs,
    sometime meat, diary, vegetables and
    when i want my croissant ( Paris) i go and buy it ( sometimes two) and eat it without planning to skip a meal
    because of it.
    not eating bread for years has left me with such a yearning,
    all this bloody usseles control.. such an idiocy.
    so adore bread and most of the days i am eating a pound
    of it per day.
    followin Rbti on the corners, but mainly eating,eating,eating.
    the more i eat , the less i think of it. the deep and terrible hunger i had acumulated is almost gone.
    and the thing is that i am 36 years old
    5 feets 9 and i weight 130 lbs
    which isn't far from what i was in my 20,all that
    after meals to kill an elephant.
    my conclusion comes simple.
    unsatisfied cravings are the beginning of a sickness.
    harsh nutrition discipline takes the control of your body from your body
    and gives it to idea with vague consequences.
    low carbers are infinite idiots that has decided to drive the car
    on oil , not fuel.. " carbs aren't essential"..
    euh, yes, they give the best energy which is bloody essentual to me. i don' t take a bottle of vitamins par day to
    nurish my self..proteins and fat are needed in small quanities, they are not meaned to be the main meal.
    and " i love my salmon with brocoli" arghhhh,while
    loving to cook i hated spending my days tryin' to avoid the
    "simple and complex sugars".
    i have lost weght, lost fat, gained muscle after eating them
    but it isn't just that, i don't simply count, stressed and think
    about food exept when i am hungry. i truly belive that
    obssesion with food unless you are a cook is unhealthy.
    So nutrition is new born demi science and untolerence is
    typical for zealots, i took the train to LC and Diet city,
    they are sad little places, skip them.
    Matt , you are doing well.
    open mind and logic plus good intuition and humor leads
    can bring you far. Thanks for making my life complete again.

  64. Thank you, i. So, what does a meal look like for you? A loaf of bread? I'm trying to translate all of this into the kitchen (with the inclusion of RBTI- which has helped me already). I am also realizing that the large amount of fat/protein I have eaten over the years has made me sick. Could you give me some examples of what you would eat in a day?

  65. @Mercury

    Common sense said:
    "if you were so smart in your research, you would not still be looking for answers"

    As far as I understand it, this is trolling.

    Also, I don't see any diatribe from myself.

    Either you're under the sway of an overly strong emotional reaction that is clouding your reasoning, you yourself are trolling, or you just need to work on your rhetoric. Whichever it is, good effort. =)

  66. Gaw, I missed a Total Recall reference!!! This is perhaps the most humiliating moment of my life.

    I Said…

    I can call you Croissant right?

    So Croissant (and yes, I'm pronouncing it in my head as Kwah Sont), that was one of the more enjoyable rants I've seen in a while. Written almost as if it were a poem. And poetry it was mon amie.

    Speaking of food obsession amongst non-chefs, I've always been a lover of hearing small snippets of conversation as I pass by people. I once had an assignment in college to write a story based on a few words I heard spoken by a stranger in passing. Yesterday I was out hiking and two girls came up the trail as I was heading down. The only thing that I heard of the conversation as they passed by was,

    "It's really high in fiber too."


    Dog argument-

    25 years of doing something and studying something does not give a person expertise. It depends on how you are doing it. Paul Bragg studied human nutrition and health his whole life and died of a heart attack at 81 just like everybody else. Weston A. Price didn't live that long. Pottenger didn't live that long. Pritikin dropped dead in his 50's I believe.

    25 years of doing something wrong and coming to incorrect conclusions doesn't give someone expertise. In fact, when it comes to human health, those with the most experience (medical doctors) have amongst the lowest life expectancy.

    A clearer example comes from my years as a chef. I could cook much better than the vast majority of chefs doing it for 25 years after just 2 years, because of the quality of my education (working at extremely good restaurants with really talented people showing me how to do things).

    I then worked at a crappy restaurant for a short while where a guy had been the chef there for 25 years. He didn't salt anything. He cooked vegetables in the microwave. If a piece of fish was taking too long to cook he would zap it in the microwave for 15 seconds and slap it on a plate.

    He could easily have said "I've been a chef for 25 years – what the hell do you know about cooking? You've only been doing this for 2 years!"

    Most people who have never set foot in a professional kitchen can cook better than that dude, because he spent 25 years doing things the wrong way.

    Having said that, I think raw meat diets are probably great for dogs, if you are one of those people whose life revolves around your pets, and you have nothing better to do with your life than pet your dog, talk to it in a baby voice, pick up its feces every time it takes a dump, feel proud about it like it's your Honor Student or something, and snuggle with it (aka, you are a loser).

    There, that should heat things up a bit.

  67. Aaaah, such lovely inflammatory statements all around. It MUST be proof of systemic wheat induced inflammation of the brain. This isn't comedy people, it's inflammation, baaaaahahahhahahhahaa ;)

  68. Heat it up Matt, lets make some rich troll compost. You could put people poo in it and it would sterilize.


  69. My great-grandmother had a wheat intollerance but when the great depression came around they pretty much lived off bread, potatoes, fruits, vegetables, some fats and a little meat. She made fresh bread all the time and ate it until she died at 95. She was Italian and did favor olive oil over other fats so i dont know if that was helpful or not.

  70. These are some remarks someone sent me by e-mail on this thread. I have removed identifying information and changed the wording for clarity and more detailed arguments…

    I don't think Common Sense meant to insult Lorelei. When somebody says "Hahaha!" after saying that she has just revealed her "stupidity," it's possible they're joking or teasing. Doubts could arise, but nobody can know for certain if he is joking or serious, so why not ask rather than assume that he's a troll?

    [quoting Common Sense]
    "if you were so smart in your research, you would not still be looking for answers"

    dcx said…
    As far as I understand it, this is trolling.
    I do not think so. Maybe CS did not realize that his joke was taken the wrong way… so when Lorelei became angry, he retaliated to her insults and others (ex: hack and troll). It can't be used as evidence that he's "trolling." He may have been joking or teasing (as evident by hahaha, a common indication that a comment is not meant to be taken seriously). I think his reaction was justified on the basis of being misread and then being ganged-up on and attacked for no reason (mis-quoting what he said originally and the possibility that "hahaha" indicated a joke.

    This is all just mis-understanding. Lorelei mis-quoted CS (noting that wild dogs eat plants doesn't relate to his point that dogs don't NEED vegetables). She also ignored the possibility that he was teasing by his own over-the-top comment with "hahaha!" after it.

    Maybe CS was serious in saying that he didn't knew she was offended by his comment. So CS thought Lorelei overreacted and CS wanted to punish her. Eeryone took CS's reaction as a confirmation of supposed "troll" behavior. It's actually a false confirmation. It's no different than the methods that the police use to coerce "confessions" out of an alleged suspect.
    Why did CS say he had "25 years of experience" breeding and showing dogs? First, let's acknowledge that he may be telling the truth and to give him credit for that unless we can prove he is lying. CS thought Lorelei damaged his image, so he in turn tried to repair his image and put her down. He wasn't necessarily intending to make an "argument from authority." And he may indeed have the authority to make the claims. I have heard of other breeders who do not feed their dogs vegetation.
    Conclusion: a little misunderstanding can escalate into a big misunderstanding…

    I want people to realize how these conflicts could arise from just a little misunderstanding. And I want people to realize that the majority of "trolling" allegations are false and dismissive. It's a prosecutor's fallacy and social placebo effect.

    If anyone disagrees with me, or thinks that my comments are "bullshit", I'm fine with this. I'm not wasting my time debating.

  71. Matt:

    "25 years of doing something and studying something does not give a person expertise. It depends on how you are doing it. Paul Bragg studied human nutrition and health his whole life and died of a heart attack at 81 just like everybody else. Weston A. Price didn't live that long. Pottenger didn't live that long. Pritikin dropped dead in his 50's I believe."

    Cary Reams was obese, so why are so many people putting stock in him & the RBTI dogma? Hulda Clark died of brain cancer, I think, after saying she could cure and prevent cancer. No diet guru is credible. So why do people here jump from band-wagon to band-wagon following dubious gurus? Weston Price looked obese in photos and Pottenger morbidly obese. Maybe they didn't follow their own advice or maybe they did and were better off than they otherwise would have been. Who knows. Nobody can prove a diet is optimal for all people, or even themselves.

    "25 years of doing something wrong and coming to incorrect conclusions doesn't give someone expertise. In fact, when it comes to human health, those with the most experience (medical doctors) have amongst the lowest life expectancy."

    References? According to statistics rich people live longer than poor, so I find it unlikely doctors have amongst the lowest life expectancy, putting them in with people living in ghettoes and housing projects & next to coal plants and factories? I think not. Show me the data, and let's have a discussion.

    "a crappy restaurant…where a guy had been the chef there for 25 years… He could easily have said "I've been a chef for 25 years – what the hell do you know about cooking? You've only been doing this for 2 years!""

    You ignore that Common Sense didn't just say he bred dogs for 25 years, but he put them in shows. That puts him in the same class as the chef @ your (alleged) gourmet restaurant & by the way, why should we believe U if you don't believe CS? Break out your resumé and his with up-to-date phone numbers and addresses and the names of your employers and others, so we can verify your story. If not you have no more credibility than him, but you dismiss him, so should we not dismiss you as well?

  72. I have sent those comments to Mercury… He post them here… probably he finds them useful.

  73. No need to read Mercury's link. It was the same comment; Mercury explained it better himself.

  74. Also, Matt, your restaurant comment is comparing apples and oranges. CS claimed 25 years breeding & working & showing dogs. You need to compare your 2 years in gourmet restaurants to someone with 25 years in gourmet restaurants. Of courrse someone who goes to the Sorbonne and works in a 5-star restaurant for 2 years would probably have more ability and cook better food than the guy at Denny's or Waffle House, but CS doesn't fit that description (unless he's lying about his experience). Well, unless you both present your resumé, there is no way for readers to know which on of you to believe (maybe both or neither).

  75. @Mercury

    Aggressive criticism and semantic arguments are generally ineffective. Try to understand what you really want out of this exchange and just ask for it clearly.

    If all you really want is:
    "I want people to realize how these conflicts could arise from just a little misunderstanding. And I want people to realize that the majority of "trolling" allegations are false and dismissive."
    then you need to focus on that message, because at the moment you're just swinging wildly at anything anyone says.

    Telling everyone how wrong they are and that any criticism of you will automatically go unheard does nothing to further your goal of understanding.

  76. dcx:

    Sorry, that was what I said… not what Mercury said. I was the one who sent Mercury the writing; Mercury then revised it and posted it over here.

    You said:
    Telling everyone how wrong they are and that any criticism of you will automatically go unheard does nothing to further your goal of understanding.

    Sorry if I sounded harsh to you. I was not trying to avoid further criticism. I was just not planning to do further posts at that time.

    Don't get me wrong. I value criticism. I think beliefs needs to be challenged, and some beliefs are difficult to grasp and justify, so they should be questioned by criticism. The feedback from your posts has helped me a lot.

  77. Try to understand what you really want out of this exchange and just ask for it clearly.

    If all you really want is [this],
    then you need to focus on that message, because at the moment you're just swinging wildly at anything anyone says.

    Yes, there's a saying that people "spin" the news to promote their own agendas. The techniques of "spin" include:

    – Selectively presenting facts and quotes that support one's position
    – Interpreting someone's words in a way to set an example to "prove" your own position
    – Phrasing in a way that assumes unproven truths
    – Euphemisms to disguise or promote one's agenda

    In this case, you thought that I was "twisting" CS's words, to promote the idea that "the majority of 'trolls' are falsely alleged."


    But that's not what I was doing. I was not an opportunist. I was not trying to "spin" CS's words to "prove" my idea to be true.

    So what was I referring to?

    I was referring to my history of posts. As you may know, I have a history of posts which focuses on "clarifying" posters.

    That was what I was referring to; I was just listing the reasons why made so many posts on "clarifying" others.

  78. Lorelei aka Hawaiigirl-

    I am also "experimenting" with my dogs food. She is actually getting the same thing I am eating -RBTI style. She do gets the occasionally raw liver and raw bones, which I am not too fond of trying myself.. YUK! She eats anything I give her.. Well almost.. She likes some fruits but definitely not all -some of them she just likes playing with (grapes) ;-) She also loves veggies -all kinds, even if they are frozen -when I accidentally drops one from a bag. I have noticed that her fur has become a lot smoother and her poop is top notch, after introducing this diet. She still gets her dog food, her bowl is always full so she can eat whenever she is hungry.


    "if you are one of those people whose life revolves around your pets, and you have nothing better to do with your life than pet your dog, talk to it in a baby voice, pick up its feces every time it takes a dump, feel proud about it like it's your Honor Student or something, and snuggle with it (aka, you are a loser)."

    Ha ha ha! That was SO funny!! And very disturbing at the same time as I probably act like a little loser sometimes. Ha ha! -Hey, you would too if you met my dog ;-P

  79. Sheila – isn't it cool? Be careful though, dogs aren't supposed to have onions, grapes, raisins, or avocados. Probably some other things too, but those are the ones I remember.

  80. Chocolate is supposed to kill dogs too. or make them crazy. or both.
    BTW: seems that this blog has turned into Fight Club. First Rule of Fight Club: Don't tell anyone about Wheat Belly.

  81. Is it wrong to be a girl and really really like that movie? Of course, I hate shoes, makeup, and shopping, so I guess I'm not a girl anyhow.

  82. Damn you Hawaii Girl and Debbie!

    Stop sharing your identical movie preferences to mine.


    Glad you saw the humor in that! I was scared it was written a little too aggressively and wouldn't be taken as a funny Mattism.

  83. "180 Baby I did it for you 180 followers".

    Guy sounds just like Borat its hilarious!

  84. Hey guys,

    Here's my story:

    I like many went the low carb way, but I did this because I was diagnosed with ankylosing spondylitis (Spinal Arthritis). The general thought out there is that Ankylosing Spondylitis is affected by the consumption of starches, due to the arthritis being caused by a bacterial infection in the intestines. don't feed the bacteria, reduce the problem (simple solution without addressing any of the causes). Matt you may find this specific condition interesting because of the diet theory.

    Anyway I did low carb for roughly 18 months (just less than 2 years ago I stopped). In that time I lost about 30 pounds (I am 5'11, was 185 of mainly muscle, I was a rugby player) I became ripped, but I also got a lot weaker, if anything to lean. My pain levels from the Ankylosing Spondylitis on the best days manageable, on the bad days, like living with rigamortis. I sometimes was so no starch strict I'd be worried after I ate a few grams of starches. From eating this way I became tired all the time,and by tired I mean extreme chronic fatigue, If I was not at work, I was usually sleeping, and in pain. While I was awake I was a walking ripped zombie, had the 6 pack everyone wanted and the body of Brad Pitt, thing is I felt awful though.

    I slowly have been getting more comfortable eating everything. What really opened my eyes was living the past year in 2 other countries. They don't even know what gluten intolerance is..and thought I was crazy for not wanting to eat bread at each meal. The last year I have eaten just about everything, and not worried, and while I still battle with my Ankylosing Spondylitis, my energy has recovered from my low carb burnout by eating a balanced diet.

    – James

  85. Andrew – I heart you and your puns too. Missed that comment, decided to go have a life for awhile :)

  86. Mercury, you are blowing this way out of proportion dude, geez.. why are we still talking about dogs anyway? Do you deny that animals crave and seek out what they need (salt licks are a good example, again)? You never addressed this point.
    Carey Reams' diet, along with all of the positive information that is included throughout it, probably causes cancer, this has been stated repeatedly here. And Weston Price lived to be 78, ftr… talk about a premature death… yes, dogs are carnivores- they can rely on meat exclusively, this is a fact- so what?! ..and pleeze include a link in your reply to a photo of an obese Weston A Price, I'd like to see it.


  87. ..my bad if that came off as harsh… damn IPA/HE diet… ;)

  88. …and if someone, who's not involved in this exchange tries to dissect this conversation, or put words in my mouth, I will blow my load-right here- so help me… really sorry for that one, guys….

  89. Mercury-

    The doctor/shortened life expectancy thing I have heard many times, but taking a deeper look into it, this seems to be more of a rumor passed around than a fact.

    I mention Bragg's age because Bragg's health advice was particularly barbaric, and he lied about his age (telling everyone he was 14 years older than he really was) – and his death of a heart attack was also covered up to protect his health empire. They claimed his death was a result of health complications that he suffered after a surfing accident (that was supposedly at age 94, but really 80). Hence the pet peeve with all that.

    But one has to admit, as Anthony Colpo did such a good job of highlighting once upon a time, that very few diet gurus had exceptional longevity for their often extreme efforts. That's one of the points of this post – that trying hard to eat some crazy diet isn't the path to longevity. You might as well eat pizza, drink beer, and have fun with your friends.

    Ripped Zombie-

    Fantastic phrase. I like it. I can't help but feel instinctually that eating in a way that makes you feel better will also be the way of eating that gives your body the strength and tools to repair itself. I don't trust anyone or anything to heal the human body more than the human body itself. With the right tools and hardware, there's no limit to what the body can repair. So I will keep my fingers crossed for you. Glad to hear you are feeling better.

    You would laugh hysterically at the gluten-free craze in the town I'm living in at the moment (Boulder). Thinking of a place where no one has ever heard of a gluten-free diet makes me smile.

  90. Here are the results in my life:

    I ate high starch/sugar, low fat for over 10 yrs. Mostly pasta, bread, veggies, fruit, and chicken. No soda and little 'junk' food. On top of this, I did regular cardio for about 45 minutes, 5 to 6 times a week.

    Result: After more than 10yrs on this diet, my body fat had gone from 25% to over 40%, I had developed pre-diabetes, I had gained over 40 lbs of body fat. I was always tired and low energy, I had bad breath, terrible mood swings, irregular periods, and acne.

    I stopped my high carb diet after bloodwork showed significant hormone issues. I was always a doubter of of low sugar/starch diets, but that is what made a dramatic change in my life. For the last 7 years I dramatically reduced the amount of sugar and starch in my diet.

    Periods are like clockwork (28 day cycle on the dot), very stable moods, no acne, no bad breath, high energy, no bloat, and I've lost and kept off over 35lbs of body fat and am down to about 25% body fat again. I eat tons of saturated fat in the form of ghee and coconut oil. Eat delicious organic grass fed beef. My bloodwork is fantastic.

    The facts speak for themselves. Is it possible that eating a ton of sugar and refined starch can help reduce body fat for some? Sure. However, I know that over a decade of eating such a diet wreaked havoc with my weight and health, so I'm afraid I will respectfully decline your suggestions.

  91. Oh, man I want this guy's flat belly….I'm still stuck with +20 pounds in overweight that I can't seem to loose after being no carb for three looooong years….Should I be downing pizzas instead of my expensive whole foods meals that take ages to prepare…..hm….

  92. Thanks Chris. Make sure to wear earplugs at the WT, because when we shake hands for the first time there will probably be a deafening explosion.

  93. Let me be the first to predict that when Chris ' the master ' Masterjohn meets Matt ' RBTI-itch' Stone that the earth will shake , the seas will part and angels will sing. Best thing since Ali and Frazier. And I get to witness it. Awesomesauce.

  94. I like how you are against dietary extremeism, Matt. The fruitarians, WAPF, etc. – all cultists. Your HED is what I like the best. I have tried many methods of eating, too.

  95. I am a very fit lean male who has always had very high energy and a very good metabolism.

    However I always found that if I ate pasta and other wheat based products for lunch I got dreadfully (and I mean seriously) sleepy in the afternoon. It seriously affected my productivity and I would sometimes even uncontrollably fall asleep at work.

    In September 2010 I was diagnosed with Coeliac Disease; I was only tested because someone else in my family had it, so we tested the whole family. I was the only other person with the disease. I was the only one to have no “typical” symptoms (as in low energy or abdominal discomfort).

    Since not eating anything wheat based I never get lethargic or sleepy after eating any more. OK, so I had a disease here in the background only revealed with blood tests and a gastroscopy (awful!!!!).

    I know a lot of people who also feel awful and tired after eating wheat based products, and I often wonder if they might infact also have undetected coeliac disease, and recommend them to get the TTG anti-body blood test.

    Like with everything, one diet is great for one person, and sucks for another. So anecdotal evidence “oh well wheat doesn’t bother me and makes me feel better” is utterly meaningless. What is healthy to one person is not to another.

    I eat a LOT of red meat and refined carbohydrates yet I have very low triglycerides (around 30) and good HDl cholesterol and very good blood sugar/HBA1C. I am very physically fit and active so maybe that’s why.I have always been the quintissential “eat what I want and never gain an ounce” person. People try to insist we don’t exist, but here I am. I have even done studies measuring my average calorie intake per day and weight. My weight always stays about 128-132lbs and calories about 3,000 per day. I have tried eating low carb to see what it’s like, and generally I feel OK energy wise but can get headaches easily and chest pains.

    Different diets affect us all differently.

  96. Wow- most of the responders to this blog post sound REALLY young, as does the author. The body, as it ages, tends to make fools of the young.

    It is obvious, blog-post-author, that you did not read the book before you “stepped in it.”

    As Dr. Davis points out, he is a cardiologist, having practiced that specialty for over 30 years. He writes “Wheat Belly” from the perspective of a Dr. who has had tremendous success reversing heart disease and diabetes, allowing patients who were insulin dependent to stop taking any meds whatsoever. How can you dispute that his approach works?

    The other points made in “Wheat Belly” that you failed to address here are the other negative health effects that disappear, seemingly overnight, when wheat is cut out of the diet. Not just gluten, but wheat. The book was not written to simply imply that if one stops eating wheat one will lose their pot belly.

    With regard to all the “balanced diet” drivel I hear out there, what’s being suggested in “Wheat Belly” is that a lot of folks have some degree of intolerance to grains, specifically wheat. What is balanced about eating something that makes a person sick? If you have to take meds to eat it (like diabetics with carbs, DUH!) how is it contributing to a healthy diet? How is that “balanced?”

    What all of you “carbaholics” are forgetting is that EVERY human body responds to carbohydrates the SAME WAY. It’s not about diabetes, it’s just the way EVERY HUMAN BODY WORKS. You eat carbs, they turn to glucose, your insulin levels rise, your insulin levels drop, you are really hungry again, YOU CRAVE MORE CARBS. This is biology. This is science 101. I don’t care how good you feel now, all those carbs, and all those resulting blood-sugar (insulin) spikes are not good for anyone. Long range, it’s diabetes in the making. It is a fact that the American diet is laden with more carbohydrates and sugars than at any other time in recorded history. And all “complex” carbs, or “whole grains” do for you is keep your blood sugar high for a longer period of time. They’re not better, and in some cases they’re even worse.

    I should think that anyone researching a sustainable diet for a human would want to look closely at the diets humans ate early in their evolution. We survived, and thrived, for many years eating a meat and veg diet – no grains in sight. Not so with vegan diets – any diet that needs supplementation from your friendly neighborhood GNC to be complete is simply NOT suitable for survival.

    Maybe you diet “experts” should stop looking at governmental food studies, which are, almost without exception, funded by corporate food and our benevolent pharmaceutical companies. They aren’t going to give you unbiased information about food or nutrition, because they know that if their suggestions make you sick and you have to stop eating their food, they will still make a small fortune on all the statins, IBS medications, and diabetes drugs you will surely be taking when your pancreas finally takes a shit from having to overcompensate for all your carb consumption.

    Most of the followers of this blog sound like a lot of athletes and people in some kind of “training.” I guess it should be no wonder to me that any of you would be scared to death by the prospect of having to watch the game at the bar without drinking all of your wheat-based beer and eating your wheat-crust pizza. Watch any athletic event being aired on television, and most of the advertising is for beer and carbohydreate-laden junk food. It is truly amazing to me how difficult it is for some people to give up their comforting, squishy breads and their warm, nurturing oatmeal in the morning, even though those foods offer NOTHING to your bodies that cannot be acquired through the consumption of seeds, nuts, and vegetables.

    Carbohydrates are vehicles, my friends – breads, chips, pasta, waffles, potatoes, rice – all just carriers for the real foods we put on top of them. Just eat the food – you don’t need to drive it into your system layered over carbs. Your pancreas will thank you when you’re older.

    • I used to believe in this low-carb science fiction too. Good luck getting past it. In the meantime I suggest going up into the mountains and trying not to speak to anyone about this.

    • Insulin spikes are normal and cannot be avoided. Insulin spikes in response to the smell of food, regardless of what kind or whether you eat it. Btw, I’m a diabetic and my blood sugar ROSE STEADILY over a year on a 3% carb diet. Once I added carbs back, my blood sugar dropped like a rock. I will never do low carb again, no thanks!!!

  97. I personally think cutting all carbs means cutting all vegetables, and I think its pretty much universally accepted (at least by the sane) that vegetables are a healthy and necessary part of our diets. I don’t think most people who are part of the “paleo” movement, or what you define as the “low carb” movement, are necessarily demonizing all carbohydrates. The paleo movement does its best to mimic the diet of our paleolithic ancestors, and I think its pretty much a certainty that our paleolithic ancestors didn’t eat huge quantities or wheat or other grains as we know them today, simply because those crops weren’t readily available until the advent of the agricultural revolution. The book “Wheat Belly” (did you read it?) makes the point that modern wheat isn’t at all the same wheat our ancestors ate from time to time, because of generations of selective breeding for crop yield, with no consideration paid to the health consequences of said breeding. Modern wheat is more genetically dissimilar from ancient wheat than we are from chimpanzees. I think its interesting that you and Martin felt so much better after the introduction of wheat to your diet, and I don’t at all discount the truth of it. I’m sure you did feel better, especially if you were cutting your carbs so low before-hand. I personally don’t think “carbs” are bad at all. I just think some carbs are superior, and the best carbs are the ones most similar to what our bodies evolved on.

    • Right. And our Paleo ancestors had a very poor diet. This we know. They could only reproduce at certain times of year and were tiny and short-lived. The agricultural revolution is what made humans the dominant species on the planet today. I will be making these points in the Paleo Summit coming up in February. Nature limits the success a species can have. The modern diet is essentially what steroids is to athletes. Definitely superior, but perhaps with some drawbacks and side effects as well. But I’m not sure we can go back to eating sparse, wild diets without suffering negative metabolic recourse from it.

  98. Woah, Matt you are going to the paleo summit? I have about 20 minutes of stand-up about vibram five-fingers, should you need it.

    Since this is turning into “what Matt Stone means to me,” So I had a realization over the long holiday break about how Matt Stone has changed my life. I’ve become a cook and a big part of that is Matt’s blog and cookbook. I used to cook, don’t get me wrong, but I’ve mastered a lot of techniques and basics that I couldn’t even fathom before. Like emulsions. I’m all about emulsions these days.

    Over the break, I made three meals a day for five people and it was fun and easy and I never had so many props and compliments in my life. My eat-like-a-bird old folks were actually packing away the food by the end of it, which was a joy to see. Robert could still pwn them on potatoes, but then, I’d put my 180 tatey 5-year-old against any stereotypical Irishman, anyday. Speaking of which, the boy learned about Van Gogh in school and when the painting the “Potato Eaters” came up, he said, in class, “that’s me!”

    The last crazy Matt Stonish health thing I adopted was drinking distilled water, which I cherry-picked from his RBTI phase. (Not sure if he is still in the RBTI phase or what). It really helps when ever I’m retaining water, which is a lot. I’ve mostly gone back to regular water, but whenever I eat processed or salty foods, I find it helps to chill with distilled for a few days.

    • Jenny,

      You mean a lot to me too. When you’re gone, I don’t have this high pressure feeling of having to say something clever or make obscure pop references. I’m already jealous over your KRS-ONE compliments given to Chief. I mean, I know who KRS-ONE is! I had a radio show in college (two white guys humorously playing rap music and saying things in nerdy voices like “Whoomp, there it is” in tandem). Seriously. Ask anybody. My posts have gotten increasingly less funny the longer you’ve been away.

      And has my life changed because of you? Well hell yes! Every small child under age 10 that is in my life instantly requests that I play Kraftwerk the moment they set foot in my car. Not even exaggerating here. They can’t get enough We Are the Robots.

      As far as Paleo Summit – this is an online event. Not the Ancestral Health Symposium. Which is great. I hate getting out of my pajamas. It is so not Paleo to have to get out of your pajamas. Grok would have loved pj’s. And, incidentally, PB and J’s.

  99. Hi Matt –

    I learned about you from the Paleo Summit and am excited about your ideas and experiences. I am tired of being tired and cold. For three weeks now I have included rice and potatoes thanks to PHD/Paul and now feel even more encouragement from this community to add more carbs. I coincided my carb increase with LDN and so I don’t know what to attribute to what.

    Anyway, I wish you would read the book and comment specifically about the “more than typical hybridization” that Dr. Davis claims. I agree with you that all of his claims don’t make sense but please don’t dismiss everything without commenting specifically on the changes in wheat. It is the only thing that makes sense to me out of his book.

    Thanks for considering! Pam

  100. I actually heard Dr. Davis interviewed on a podcast called “Gnostic Media”. It got to the point that the host (and Dr. Davis maybe a little) was speculating that wheat was a weapon the Elite New World order people were using to kill us off. I don’t actually think this is as improbable as most of you might think. At the time I didn’t eat much wheat as I was kinda lo-carb. Soon thereafter I found 180 and chief rok and decided to put their knowledge to the test. I have had lots of pizza, beer, cereal, and ice cream ( as well as lots of other yummy whole foods) and I feel great and maybe 5lbs heavier.

    • I’ve lost 21 pounds so far and stable by eating pizza, beer, ice cream without gums (certain flavors of Haagen Dazs or Turkey Hill all natural), tacos, burritos, along with at least two quarts of whole milk a day, NFC orange juice, fresh juices and fruits, a few sugar sodas a day (Pepsi Throwback, Sierra Mist, Reed’s Premium Ginger Brew, Snapple Green & Black peach or raspberry tea, etc. My stomach looks much flatter, my arms and legs are more solid, don’t seem to have lost muscle, strength went up, etc. I eat sprouted flourless bread or stone-ground sourdough along with good white bread (preferably unbleached, unenriched, no PUFA oils, no HFCS). You have to get healthy to lose weight, not the other way around. I don’t really like most cereals I have tried, including things like Honeycomb, Frosted Flakes, Honey Smacks, etc.

      In addition, JohnG, I think you’re oversimplifying Matt and Chief Rok. They are also saying to balance fluid, salt, and sugar intake, or to balance the solid food with the liquids. I drink a lot of milk, juice, and sodas, because that is what I crave or how I like to eat and feel better. But I tend to over-hydrate unless I get more solid foods, salt, etc. I naturally adjusted like getting orange juice with pulp, eating whole fruit, cottage cheese, pretzels with no PUFA oils, peanut butter, potatoes, etc. I think it makes more sense not to restrict calories, sugars, and starches, including refined if they are more palatable and easier to stay warm by eating.

  101. One thing that gets me is if wheat and carbs are so bad for you and they lead to a myriad of problems, obesity being one of them, why the f**k are people like Jimmy Moore ballooning up on a LC diet? He’s not the only one, bloggers like Amy Dungan and Dana Carpender are gaining as well. There is more to weight gain/loss than just avoiding carbs, its a overly simplified approach to diet and for the most part is not working. Props to Matt coming out and saying, “horseshit” to the low carb anti-wheat craze. He’s not the only one doing it, there is a growing number of people speaking up who know a thing or two about nutrition.

    There is a possibility that some people are just going to carry extra weight. I think our hysteria to be thin would be a lot less prevalent if the media didn’t glamourize youth and beauty. My God is there anything worse than trying to skullf**k people with how they look? Bottom line is regardless of what you eat one has to learn that their body type is what it is and nothing will change that. Sh*t even people who get GBS gain the weight back. In the end your genetics will triumph and you can eat yourself into a disorder trying to change that or you can learn to love who you are.

  102. It has been shown that gluten can cause damage to the intestinal villi and cause a release of transglutaminase antibodies, and that you can pretty much feel no real adverse reactions until 30 years later when you develop any number of issues caused by the low level inflammation it causes. not even counting that, wheat/most grains/and esp. junk food is just nutritionally dead, and just makes no sense to eat. if you wanna eat high carb go for it, the kitavanas are a perfect example that a people who are doing everything else right such as keeping stress low and sleeping well can thrive on high carb, i just dont see why you need to eat junk, and the idea that your missing out by not eating junk is illogical, theres tons of healthy carbs/food in general that is delicious.

  103. i hate to say this but big deal on eating the 16″ pizza. ive done that many times and Im a girl. (not saying I’m proud but not a big feat folks)

  104. Are we still talking here? Two years ago, when I was figuring out how to help my daughter heal from a nasty rheumatoid arthritis, I tapped into the paleo/primal diet bloggers. They are the “cool kids” – and make you want to be them. Who wouldn’t want Mark’s abs, or Robb Wolf’s biceps? But I felt really skeptical of the low carb and auto-immune protocol restrictions. Despite people reporting fast recovery of health, it didn’t seem reasonable avoiding all those foods. My daughter did a diet of mostly raw milk (4 gallons/week), and other than avoiding processed foods and vegetable seed oils, continued to eat carbs, wheat, seafood, grassfed meats, etc. She is still healing, but has mostly recovered and is living her life fully again.

    My guess is that a lot of the inability to digest wheat has to do with antibiotics/meds wiping out the proper organisms to break down the offending proteins. I agree with Matt that this wheat-avoidance will lead to more problems because of starving out any organisms that use wheat as a substrate, as well as the organisms that digest breakdown products of wheat downstream.

    I remember seeing a simple cartoon of dung, dung beetle, dung beetle dung, dung beetle dung beetle, etc. You wipe out the dung, what’s going to happen to the dung beetle dung beetle? What happens if dbdb happens to produce some as yet unidentified vitamin that is critical for brain function or something else vital? I’m with you, Matt. For gods sakes, ETF!

  105. This is a silly thread. I won’t listen to anyone about weight loss and health under 45. And it’s a lot better to listen to people who actually have escaped bad health as in someone shedding 25 kilos or more. What I see in the video clip is a bunch of kids. You’re too young to know struggle or bad health.



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