September 24, 2013 at 3:33 pm #12810DutchieParticipant
Ive heard that Tianeptine should do the opposite of normal antidepressant hormone-gutwise. Kinda like LSD. Is there anyone who has experience with it? It isnt to be gotten over here (yet)October 9, 2013 at 11:58 pm #13074sa230eParticipant
No but I’d like to hear about your experiences if you get your hands on it. I’d love to try it but it’s not available here and I don’t want to run afoul of the law trying to acquire some. I’ve tried a handful of conventional serotonergic antidepressants and they all made me feel worse. I’d love to try some anti-serotonergic drugs and see what they can do.
I’m skeptical about Ray Peat’s claim that LSD is anti-serotonergic. From what I’ve read there are studies that show it blocks the effects of serotonin on certain types of muscle tissue (IIRC) but the research that studies its effects on the brain say it (and all the other psychedelics) has a strong affinity for the 5-HT 2A receptor. That said, I’m not a pharmacologist and I don’t understand it very well. I like Ray Peat but I don’t automatically believe everything he says.
Other than it’s supposedly anti-serotonergic action (if it’s true), LSD has little in common with Tianeptine. Tianeptine is an anti-depressant and is not hallucinogenic.October 14, 2013 at 9:32 pm #13153
Tianeptine is AMAZING, and having experience both, I can say its effects are nothing like LSD’s.
When I was looking for a medical solution to my health problems, rather than working on diet and exercise, I tried several anti-depressants, including SSRIs, an SNRI, mirtazapine, bupropion (wellbutrin), and a couple of atypicals. They were all disastrous failures, though some less disastrous than others. Tianeptine was the only thing that helped, and although I no longer take it, it allowed me to survive during some periods of high stress (long work hours, difficult work environment, etc.) when I wasn’t sure if I was going to survive.
I could rhapsodize about tianeptine for several paragraphs, but I’m curious what you want to know and why you want to use it. That would help me better target my response.
In general, I would say that tianeptine is the greatest anti-stress drug I’ve ever seen. It had some bad side effects, but they’re not as bad as other anti-depressants. The main effects are a clearing of the mind, reduced sensitivity to stressors, and a bit of stimulation. It’s really a shame it’s not approved in the US.October 15, 2013 at 1:06 pm #13162LeightonParticipant
Thanks for uploading so many posts the last 24 hours–I always enjoy what you have to say. I have a question, if you don’t mind. When you were in the process of trying all of the drugs listed above, did you ever try Adderall? Thanks!October 15, 2013 at 6:20 pm #13164DutchieParticipant
@David I’d heard that it actually decreases serotonin(they talked about it at a ray peat board),but I haven’t thougth about it anymore or looked into it because it’s not for sale or for prescription here anyway.October 15, 2013 at 9:04 pm #13166
Thanks, Leighton! I haven’t tried Adderall, but I did experiment with a couple of stimulants that would be similar: Concerta and Nuvigil. Unfortunately, I didn’t do well with either one. There was an immediate and lasting boost in energy with each drug, but I couldn’t deal with the side effects, which included insomnia, impaired cognition, and anxiety. They also triggered a facial pain issue I have in the area of the medial trigeminal nerve.
Stimulant drugs just aren’t for me. I had similar effects with Wellbutrin, which is probably the most stimulating of the anti-depressants, and even have bad effects with caffeine if I’m not careful. I can enjoy a caffeinated soda once a day, and an occasional coffee when I really need a boost, but for whatever reason, I’m unusually sensitive to stimulants. The only stimulant that doesn’t cause this reaction is nicotine, and that’s because its opposing calming effect takes over after a very low dose. It’s not worth smoking to get that effect, for obvious reasons, but sometimes I’ll take nicotine lozenges, though with breaks to avoid dependence. Fortunately, the lozenges are much less addictive than cigarettes, because the absorption is much more gradual.
Dutchie- Tianeptine is an SSRE, a selective serotonin reuptake enhancer (sometimes SSRA, selective serotonin reuptake accelerator), which means that it makes the brain “use up” serotonin faster than normal. Just like you said, that means its serotonin effect is the opposite of the SSRIs, which elevate brain serotonin levels. However, the mechanisms of these drugs aren’t very well understood. Mood is much more complicated than simple serotonin levels, and one surprising difference between SSRIs and tianeptine is that tianeptine works almost immediately, while SSRIs usually take weeks before they “kick in,” even though they drastically elevate serotonin within the first few doses. If it was just increased serotonin that made SSRIs work, there shouldn’t be the delay in their effect.
Another way that tianeptine works (and this is perhaps its most powerful effect) is that it protect parts of the brain from damage caused by stress, and there’s evidence that it can even reverse this damage. I noticed that it even protected me from the stress effect I get from stimulants. Normally, two cups of coffee would mess me up. When I took tianeptine, I was fine. I was also much more resilient when dealing with work stresses that normally would have worn me out.
However, the benefits diminished with time. I had several months where I felt great, and then I used it for a couple more years with about 50% success. It was still helpful, but eventually the minor side effects became worse than the declining benefits. For me anyway, it wasn’t a cure, but it helped me get through some hard times. And when I was still in the honeymoon stage, it was practically a miracle. Not only did it lift my mood, but I experienced none of the numbing that is often associated with anti-depressants. Instead, I felt positive emotions more powerfully and just felt more like myself–if that makes sense.
It’s relatively easy to purchase tianeptine online, and because its not a scheduled drug (like marijuana or even adderall), there’s no risk of punishment that I know of, at least not in the United States. It is expensive, though, especially since you can’t use insurance for it. For the normal dose, you could expect to spend at least $3 a day.October 18, 2013 at 5:14 pm #13229
What side effects did you have from tianeptine?
Did you take it with food?October 18, 2013 at 5:33 pm #13232
As far as I could tell, food didn’t seem to matter one way or another. The side effects at first were very minimal, during that amazing “honeymoon” phase, but later on I noticed increasing agitation towards the end of the day. I didn’t notice it much myself, but my wife reported that I was less patient than usual. On some occasions I also experienced anxiety, despite the fact that the drug is supposed to be anxiolytic. Finally, I seemed to lose my voice more easily than normal.
The agitation and anxiety can probably be attributed to the mild stimulant effect of tianeptine. In addition to its main mechanism, it also increases dopamine moderately. As I tend to be sensitive to stimulants, I believe that explains my adverse effects. Towards the end, I started to drink alcohol in the evenings to counteract the effect. That’s when I decided to find less stressful work and seek non-pharmaceutical solutions.
My problems with my voice probably weren’t a direct effect of the drug. I talked more when using tianeptine because of my improved mental state, so I probably wore my voice out that way.October 18, 2013 at 5:37 pm #13233
Oh, and there were none of the typical anti-depressant side effects–no sexual side effects, no fatigue, no emotional numbing, no weight gain. It seems to have one of the better side effect profiles of the anti-depressants; it was the only one I could tolerate for more than a couple of weeks.October 18, 2013 at 5:57 pm #13234
Thanks for responding David.
I have tried tianeptine and I got vertigo and nausea, which worsened with each dose.
I am wondering if the tianeptine I bought is adulterated with a stimulant.
The problem with buying drugs outside the country is we have no guarantee of purity. It did help my anxiety greatly the first few times I took it, but the nausea and vertigo that occurred later is not a good trade off.
Also, did you have trouble stopping it? Did you taper it over a period of weeks or months? It has a short half life and drugs with short half lives are harder to quit.October 18, 2013 at 6:04 pm #13235
That’s interesting. I never experienced anything like the side effects you describe. It’s possible your batch wasn’t pure–which is a real risk with off-shore pharmacy shopping–but it could also just be differences in our brain chemistry. Unfortunately, data is hard to come by since it’s not approved here. I asked a psychiatrist about it, and he had to look it up (on Wikipedia!) while I was still in the office.
I had no problem whatsoever stopping, even after several months at full dosage. There was no withdrawal, no craving, no anything really.October 18, 2013 at 6:12 pm #13237
Well that kind of scares me.
I understand that we all have different brain chemistry, but my vertigo and nausea were very debilitating and I have not read of such symptoms as being common with tianeptine. I have taken stimulant type drugs like Wellbutrin. Wellbutrin gave me terrible anxiety but it did not cause nausea and vertigo. Paxil caused nausea and vertigo when I tried to wean from it.
I am going to assume that I got a bad batch of tianeptine.
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