August 18, 2013 at 12:27 am #11663
Jdubs, I wrote that comment because its true in its entirety. Yes, I didn’t read the thread I skimmed all the way to the 3rd page as I have a tendency to start things back-first or last-first, when I glanced over that revolting comment you posted. I had to write something because you are contributing to the massive amount of disinformation that exists. I’m no scientist, chemist or genius and I’m aware of how much I do not know. Smarter people have written about these topics before. I invite you to read through Ray Peats’ work in this area. (http://raypeat.com/) Some good articles to dispell this ‘toxic sugar’ idea include:August 18, 2013 at 12:49 am #11664
Charlie. Sorry if I called you a troll. Your coming back and posting those links proved to me that you are actually here to be serious. My original post was poorly worded and thought out. It happens. Plus my conventional learning was that sugar is metabolized in the liver which to me meant poison, or at the very least putting a load on the liver which isn’t a good thing. I truly believe that the big problem with sugar is when it’s mixed with lots of pufa’s and the like. When I mix my sugar with protein I feel better. When I mix it with fat I feel worse. Most of the people I know with diabetes eat lots of fast food and other Pufa laden garbage. Fructose is metabolized by the liver for what it’s worth, the other sugars are metabolizedthrough the stomach and intestines. Table sugar is half fructose so some of it is metabolized through the liver. As far as the Peat articles, they are always hard for me to read. Not because I don’t understand science it’s just the way they are written. It’s hard to figure out what the actual conclusions are amist all of talk. And in the end who really can prove weather Peat is right or Lustig is right. Trust me I don’t defend Lustig either I’m just saying, how do we know?August 18, 2013 at 12:56 am #11665
Here is a link that says sugar is toxic in mice http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2013/08/14/study-sugar-toxic-in-mice/
What am I supposed to believe?
Plus most of those Peat articles are about weather it causes diabetes and not weather or not it has toxic properties.August 18, 2013 at 1:03 am #11666
In the end everything in moderation. That is why I eschew diets that have high amounts of one thing to the exclusion of others. I almost did the fruitarian thing back when I was searching for answers. I still believe, if only from anecdotal evidence, that it is not a healthy long term solution.August 18, 2013 at 10:34 am #11670DavidModerator
@Jdubs- Thanks for clarifying your thoughts. The reason I responded the way I did is that you were making an unscientific statement, while at the same time accusing others of failing basic chemistry. Looking back, I can see that you were provoked, so I understand why you responded with an insult. Nevertheless, you (unintentionally?) included everyone who believes sugars can be healthy.
It looks like we agree that glucose is a benign sugar. Fructose, on the other hand, is processed down different metabolic channels, so it’s possible it could be more problematic. I’m not sure it makes sense to call everything that passes through the liver a “toxin,” but I can understand why you would want to be cautious, and there is evidence that megadoses of pure fructose will cause problems.
However, from a practical standpoint, fructose is very rarely eaten in a pure form, because most sweet foods are somewhere around 50% glucose. Bananas have even more glucose (because of their starch content), and they are often used as a staple carbohydrate. The 30bad people aren’t the only ones on this planet who eat a ton of bananas, and the percentage of such people is likely to increase as climate change makes bananas more practical than wheat in many regions.
To restate, we do agree that fructose, if taken in VERY high doses, may causes some problems, but this is true of anything. Protein will tax your kidneys if eaten in ridiculous quantities, but should we therefore consider protein a toxin?August 18, 2013 at 12:05 pm #11675
David, I think this is where it becomes somantics and maybe that’s where I am going wrong here. Protein itself may not be toxic like rat poison is toxic, but studies have shown that once you start consuming more than 30 percent of your calories in protein you start to build up toxic ketones in your system. This puts a burden on you system. It’s the same with fructose. Maybe it’s not toxic in and of itself but in large enough quantities( and I don’t know exactly what quantity that is) it creates toxins in the body and puts a burden on your liver. I may be wrong here but in my estimation the way to achieve the best health is to maximize your nutrient intake while minimizing the metabolic burden on your body. So eating tons of fruit or protein or any one thing for that matter puts a burden on your body thus reducing its healing capacity. If your liver is overloaded by metabolizing sugar and fat it may not be able to do as good of a job filtering out car exhaust or carpet fumes or chemicals from processed foods etc.
How much is too much fruit? Probably more than you or I would care to eat In a day. But start adding fruit juices and pop and candy and soda and weather you like it or not you are increasing your metabolic burden. I realize the purpose of Matt’s site is to not fear food and to dispell some common myths, like “sugar is pure evil” but common sense says too much of anything is bad.
On a final note, it seems like a lot of Fruitarians I have come across on the web are from Australia. I am surmising that a warmer climate and better access to a wider variety of fresh fruits helps them flourish a bit more. I don’t think their wonder diet however is suited to someone like me doing heavy construction in cold Pennsylvania winters.
August 18, 2013 at 12:20 pm #11679DavidModerator
- This reply was modified 10 years, 6 months ago by Jdubs.
Fair enough, but semantics are important. If you want to label everything a toxin that is harmful in high enough quantities, then everything could be a toxin. Water could be a toxin. Oxygen could be a toxin. Even lettuce could be a toxin. It seems to me that the word should be reserved for substances which clearly cause harm and have no redeeming value. Trans-fats, for example, would be a good example of a toxin, since they are proven to be dangerous and offer no counterbalancing benefit.
If you are defining a healthy diet by the ease with which it is metabolized, then sugars could pay a very important role. The simple sugars found in fruits and even sodas are much more easily broken down than long-chain polysaccharides (starches). Also, fructose can more readily replenish glycogen stores in the liver because it is processed in the liver, and this translates (I suppose) to a lighter metabolic burden.
I’m sure we agree on many things. I drink soda and juice, but I wouldn’t make them the main source of calories in my diet. However, I object to emotional language (“toxin”) being used to describe perfectly wholesome food.August 18, 2013 at 12:27 pm #11680
And on a final, final note. My main goal was to keep Saisrice from willy nilly going down another diet rabbit hole. It seems like from some of her posts that she is floundering a bit and maybe still searching for some answers, as are we all. So Saisrice my uneducated opinion is that you should just relax for a while. Let the 180 thing have a chance to work. Don’t over feed if you don’t think you need to but just eat what truly feels right. And at this point in your recovery try not to let the moral and ethical issues of eating animals or animal products get in the way. The first most important thing is your health. Your not going to change an entire industry by yourself and if you are not well, abstaining from these products is not going to help. It reminds me of the time Ghandi almost let his wife die because he refused the doctors orders to have her drink goats milk. She was very ill and needed critical nutrition. Ghandi almost let his own dietary fanaticism kill his beloved wife. In the end he relented. In fact he was very dictatorial about all of his close followers subscribing to his dietary beliefs and could be very cruel to those who didn’t.
So in the end even if you do go vegetarian I would not go all the way to strict vegan. Drink some milk, eat some honey have an egg. You can get a lot of protein from animals without killing them.August 18, 2013 at 2:12 pm #11685positivelyParticipant
I do agree with you Jdubs.
Any extreme diet is not a good choice.
I know people who felt not well on frutarian diet, but also on “peatarian”.
I think that jumping from diet to diet it’s very stressful for the body.
And in the end, who knows everything about our body and how function. We can find opposite views about all categories of food.
And healthy diet for us is when we feel good .
I do not know if sugar is toxic or not, all people say differently from their own experience.August 18, 2013 at 2:40 pm #11686
Jdubs, thanks so much for all your of replies and especially the one where you said that your goal was to stop me from going down another diet rabbit hole. It is so amazing that someone that doesn’t know me outside this forum would take the time to do that.
You’re completely right that I am floundering a little bit and a high carb raw vegan diet seemed like it might work since I’d still eat enough calories but would loose weight. I’m grateful for this forum and for everyone one here that has posted:) Staying at this weight and continuing to eat (not to overfeed myself but just not to restrict) is SO hard for me. I think of restricting every day or changing what I eat to help me loose weight. I haven’t been at this weight since I was pregnant but i know that I need to just keep eating the food and not stressing. I’m also not exercising too much because I hope to be pregnant soon and I know that if I go cutting calories or stressing my body with too much exercise that I might be back to where I was for the past 3 years (no period and infertile).
There’s a big part of me that trusts that if I just keep eating this way that my body will not think it’s starving anymore and that I’ll eventually go back to my set point. I know that this may take a year and sometimes I think I can wait that long but other times I think I need to eat more or less to speed up that process. Right now it’s my time to relax, eat when I’m hungry, and try not to beat myself for gaining weight by re-feeding. Sometimes it just seems crazy that I have chosen to eat more (and as a result gain weight) to get my health back on track but it has worked and nothing else worked. Sorry this is such a ramble but I guess just what I needed to write it out. I know it may seem like i have some body image/ED issues and I do and I’m working on them in therapy and with mindfulness and EFT on my own.
Regarding fruit and toxins, I think for me the only thing that is toxic is stressing too much about food. When I eat what I want I naturally eat a pretty well rounded diet of not too much protein or fruit or sugar. I loved that Ghandi story by the way! That was really helpful to hear. All of this has been helpful.August 18, 2013 at 6:34 pm #11693
Hey. If anyone cares I will throw in my two cents and a few tips.
I must first say a disclaimer that I dislike using the terms “vegan” and “vegetarian” to begin. I am not going to throw around studies and pretend I’m smart. Ray Peat, Andrew Kim, Danny Roddy, and Matt stone have already done the work.
The only issue I see with vegan diets would be insufficient animal protein, deficient in the various b-vitamins, deficient of dietary cholesterol and perhaps a few other nutrients I can’t recall at the moment.
Although to play devils advocate one could supplement the b vitamins and supplement with bulk concentrated plant protein. For example, pea protein or perhaps hemp or rice protein. Rice protein has been gaining favor as being able to compete with whey although a larger serving is needed to compare.
The composition of someones carbohydrate intake is very important as well. As is the pufa content and so fourth.
A diet in favor of starch mainly coming from grain and beans etc, I cannot recommend.
I favor sugar and protein when looking at ones diet. I am no fan of dietary fat for several reasons to which I will not go into.
If you are trying to refeed and increase your metabolic rate I invite you to place a tremendous value on sugar coming from fruits, milk, roots, tubers, honey, and finally pure refined forms of sugar. While at the same time reducing total dietary fat intake. To that, most people will lose their marbles in defense of butter, oils and so fourth. When one is consuming a large amount of energy in regards to increase metabollic rate, large amounts of dietary fat will impede this process and help someone to gain lots of fat(especially when most fat-containing foods people eat contain plenty of PUFA). Lastly, get the protein up perhaps in the 100-120g range for sedentary people. 1g per lb of lean mass for athletics.
I do feel sorry for those trying to eat more to improve their metabolism and they gain tremendous amounts of body fat to do so. This is not necessary.
Here is a nice article on some of Rays work that can give one some useful info.
I highly suggest one to look into this information. Basically in terms of diet, I am free.
Good luck.August 18, 2013 at 7:45 pm #11698
Thanks, Charlie. I like the idea of eating a diet that focuses on fruits, milk, roots, tubers, honey, and refined forms of sugar. That’s kind of how I’ve been eating now as I’m not eating so much fat like I was in the beginning when I was eating avocado, butter, cheese, etc.
I’m hesitant to drink low fat milk as I read so much about whole milk and full fat dairy products being good for fertility and important for someone who wants to get pregnant. Have you read anything about that? I like low-fat milk perfectly fine and there are actually many more low-fat and fat free yogurts out there so I’d happily eat those. I just don’t want to make any choices that would negatively impact my fertility. Also, I had read that it’s better for my daughter to drink full fat milk so I what we have in our home is whole raw milk and that’s what we have. On the other hand, having this extra weight is a big stress for me even though I am working accepting and loving myself, and so I think if I could loose some weight while keeping my metabolism high than I’d feel much better overall and I’m sure that would be good for fertility. Thanks for your input!August 18, 2013 at 10:14 pm #11701
Hi saisrice. First I must say I’m not as aware of information regarding women unfortunately. Something I’d like to change as I’m a man, when I have more time to research and go through the ridiculous amount of articles(Although the other day I was interested in looking into the effects of birth control on womens health)
I’m well aware of the belief that fat, like in milk, helps support sex hormones like testosterone. I’m no fan of fat from food sources except maybe coconut oil, even then(I drink skim) For your fertility query here is a quote from Rays work:
“By the 1930’s, it was well established that the resistance of the organism depended on the energy produced by respiration under the influence of the thyroid gland, as well as on the adrenal hormones, and that the hormones of pregnancy (especially progesterone) could substitute for the adrenal hormones. In a sense, the thyroid hormone is the basic anti-stress hormone, since it is required for the production of the adrenal and pregnancy hormones.” (http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/tissue-destruction.shtml)
I’d highly recommend you to check out http://raypeat.com/ . Just type in the search box at the side for fertility, pregnancy or whatever you want. Be warned the articles are lengthy and need time to be digested.August 18, 2013 at 11:19 pm #11702
Thanks! I have looked at some ray peat things but everything is a bit confusing to me. I wish there was a straightforward book I could read. In a search I came across Danny Roddy’s ebook. I just don’t want to get into some other way of eating that will be restrictive or complicated. From what I saw its not but again I just wish there was a concise book that I could read to get a better understanding. I will check out the site though and do a search for fetility. What I do know is eating everything has really helped my fertility and I bet I could get pregnant this way (as I did 7 years ago but that was when I was 24 and 30 lbs thinner before my restricting relapse, lowest weight ever and now re-feeding weight gain) but I want to loose weight while waiting to be pregnant.August 18, 2013 at 11:40 pm #11703
Saisrice, I would say don’t try to loose weight before getting pregnant. To me it seems like the only way to do it is to create a calorie deficit and up the amount of exercise. A calorie deficit means restriction which means less nutrients and lower metabolism. Why would you want to go into pregnancy that way. My advice is to bite the bullet, keep eating lots of good nutritious foods and go have yourself a nice healthy baby. If your really serious about loosing weight, I would wait till after the kid is out of the sleep depriving state of infancy. I know that’s a long time to wait to put some kind of sensible weight loss program into effect but I think it’s better to not risk yours or the babies health during pregnancy.
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