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Ketogenic 2.0

Blog Forums Dieting Sucks! Ketogenic 2.0

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    I broke down and couldn’t deal with my big belly any more. I know according to Matt’s beliefs eventually as I got healthier the fat in the belly area would redistribute through the rest of the body eventually. I just lost patience.

    My last attempt at a ketogenic diet resulted in a flat stomach but I eventually ended up feeling like shit over time. I believe that my first attempt at a ketogenic diet was a failure due to the following factors:
    1. Too much Protein
    2. Too few calories
    I basically starved myself which is how I ended up here on this site.

    I’m going to try to apply Matt’s principles to a ketogenic diet. I am going to keep protein at a moderate level and I’m going to use oils to keep my calories high enough. I will eat to appetite but I will never allow my caloric intake to dip below 2300 calories a day. (6’1″ male age 40)

    I am going to supplement my diet with the following oils to keep the calories up.
    1. Real Extra Virgin Olive Oil
    2. Red Palm Oil
    3. Coconut Oil
    4. Butter Oil (Ghee)

    Beef, Eggs, and Chevre will be my main protein sources but I will keep my protein intake much lower than it was in my first attempt at a ketogenic diet.

    The Real Amy

    I know this probably won’t make a difference, and we all make our own choices in life, but can I recommend, don’t do it. If you need more evidence, read what people on here have gone through with low-carb. Yes, even the high-fat, moderate protein type. The issue is that the body gets stressed when it has to do ketogenesis. It’s not being kind to your body. It’s a trap, and if you can’t stay on it for life (and you know it’s not a sustainable diet plan forever), you will rebound even bigger the next time.

    There are ways to get rid of a belly without ketogenesis. It just takes time. The eating methods espoused here won’t work for everyone, for sure. I am personally not a proponent of re-feeding for anyone but those who have been starving. But a ketogenic diet is just digging yourself in deeper.

    Have you tried moderation yet (i.e., not overfeeding, not going crazy, but just a balanced, healthy, whole foods, moderate calorie diet, along with weight training and some cardio)?


    I second what Amy said. In my experience, the low-protein version of the low-carb diet is just as draining. It’s better to find a moderate, sustainable way-of-living that won’t require waffling back and forth between extremes.

    That said, sometimes experience is the only teacher, and I can understand your desire to eliminate the belly quickly. When I quit over-feeding at the beginning of last summer, I went through a brief low-carb trial, and I did lose weight rapidly–and then went on a binge and gained pretty much all of it back. The only thing that’s been sustainable for me is a small calorie deficit and regular exercise, which has still led to a gradual transformation. Week to week, it seems I’m hardly improving, and there have been several setbacks, but over the course of several months, the difference has been dramatic. The belly is receding, old shirts are fitting again, and my muscles are getting harder. The exercise is really helpful for motivation, because even when the scale’s not moving, you can still see improvement in the gym or on the track, and that makes it easier not to give up.

    If you do try the keto as planned, let us know how it goes. Maybe you’ll be one of the minority of people who can make it work.


    @Real Amy
    Yeah, I tried moderation before and it didn’t work out for me. The main problem is a debilitating appetite that interferes with the quality of my life.


    My goal is to try to find a sustainable lifestyle that works for my biochemistry.


    Diet that I followed:
    I did no carb approximately, 90% Fat and 10% protein. I averaged about 60 to 70 grams of protein a day and the rest of my diet was the fat in beef/eggs/cheese along with butter, coconut oil, olive oil, and Ghee. I dropped the Red Palm Oil because I hated the taste and didn’t enjoy my food with it. I also used green powder to supply vegetables. (I absolutely hate eating vegetables and I know that stuffing food down my throat that I hate is not sustainable.) I also ate a few Brazil Nuts every day for Selenium. I plugged most my food into fitday and took supplements to fill in the nutritional gaps in my diet.

    The Good
    1. Food tasted good. I would have no problem eating this way for life if the diet had worked out for me.
    2. Lost an inch around my waist
    3. I could go several hours between meals without getting dizzy.
    4. Didn’t Crash unless I ate too much protein in one meal
    5. Sleep was very good

    The Bad
    1. Mental focus started out really good but deteriorated over time
    2. My eyes seem to be a little more bloodshot than usual.
    3. Asthma may have worsened a little bit (mild wheezing)
    4. I looked older in the mirror
    5. General Sluggishness

    Interesting Points
    1. This time around I went into ketosis in less than a day.
    2. No low carb induction this time, seemed like my body was already adapted to low carb.
    3. I don’t know if the bad results I got were the result of not going high enough in calories or being too low in carbs. I researched this thoroughly and the “experts” seem to be divided on this issue.

    What I will Try Next
    1. Slowly get my body used to carbs by eating some starch every couple of days and building up the amount.
    2. I will try a cyclic ketogenic diet where I take myself out of ketosis once every few days with a high carb evening. (Got this idea from Dave Asprey)

    1. I really want to find a way to make low carb living sustainable because I really enjoy this way of eating. It is in complete alignment with my taste buds.
    2. I am going to make the assumption for now that my bad results on the diet were the result of a glucose deficiency. This assumption is based on looking at the results through the lens of Paul Jaminet’s work.



    Thanks for sharing your experience. That’s an interesting diet that you put together, and I’m sure you learned a lot by experimenting with it. I’m really amazed that you kept an appetite for fat when you were eating well over 200 grams of it a day. That helps me understand why you find the ketogenic diet so appealing.

    The big problem with your diet, even discounting your symptoms, is that you were almost certainly shedding lean body mass. You met the basic protein requirements for a sedentary male (just barely), but it’s likely your body also underwent gluconeogenesis in order to fuel your brain. Your diet sounds like a recipe for getting skinny fat, because your muscles are likely to waste away. You need at least some carbs (or more dietary protein) in order to prevent muscle catabolism. If you were lifting weights during this time, I’m curious how your strength and endurance were affected.

    You’ve probably read about Jan Kwasniewski’s Optimal Diet. I’m not personally a fan, but it’s much more reasonable than what you tried. You can still feast on all the fat you want, but there are some carbs built in for daily glucose needs. For a zero-carb diet, you’re going to need a lot more protein.

    I do agree with you that there’s no point in eating food you don’t like. Good luck with your attempts a carb cycling. I think you’ll find that a lot more sustainable than no carbs at all.


    Cyclic Ketogenic Update

    1. If I have 2 or more no carb days in a row, I get the negative symptoms I had during my ketogenic diet (mainly feeling stressed, strung out, and having insomnia).
    2. If I have 1 day with no carbs at all I feel great with no negative symptoms as long as I had a nice carb load the day before.
    3. If I have nice carb load every other day I have enough energy to go to the gym or walk around the city and enjoy it.
    4. If I don’t have carbs at least every other day I get lethargic and feel like shit.
    5. My body composition is improving but the weight around my waist is coming off very slowly. The rest of my body looks good except for the male pregnant look.
    6. 2 Days in a row without carbs gives me insomnia which sucks.
    7. Ketostix show significant leakage of ketones in my urine by the evening of a low carb day following a carb binge the night before. I don’t know what the significance of this is if there is any.
    8. If I eat over a certain amount of protein my urine has a strong smell the next morning. For now I’m capping my protein intake at 1/2 pound of beef plus a couple of eggs per day. I’m not sure what I’m going to do long term. It depends on how I feel and where my dietary experiments lead me.

    My strategy has evolved to the following
    1. Big carb evening at least every other day. I’ll start eating carbs (Oatmeal, pasta, pancakes) at around 5 PM and eat as much as my body desires. Once I am satisfied then I stop. If I get hungry before bed I’ll make a batch of pancakes.
    2. Sometimes I’ll eat low fat chicken breast with my carbs and sometimes I won’t. I have not figured out which is better yet.
    3. Up until noon I subsist of fat (ghee/mct oil) if I eat anything at all.
    4. For lunch I eat a half pound of meat plus a couple of eggs. The meat is usually ground beef, bacon, liverwurst, or oxtail. I sometimes have bone broth or great lakes gelatin with the meal.
    5. On high carb days (around 4 per week) I don’t set any limits on the amount of food I eat once the carb window begins.
    6. On low carb days I just have my one protein meal and I drink fat to appetite (mct oil/ghee) in coffee or ginger tea.

    Important Note
    I’m usually not hungry following my present eating patterns. I’m never hungry on my high carb nights because I’m stuffing myself with carbs. I’m usually not hungry on my low carb days but if I am I’ll scramble a few extra eggs in the evening.

    I’m planning on sticking to this pattern for a couple of months before I decide to tweak it or scrap it for something else.

    I have a pet theory that Matt Stone’s ideas are right in principle. I believe where he got it wrong is mixing fat with carbs too much. I think if people did his diet recovery stuff with mostly carbs and ate their meat/fat at different times of the day than their carbs they would rehabilitate their metabolism without putting on lots of weight. Once I get rid of my belly fat I’m planning on putting this pet theory to the test.


    Ketogenic 2.0 emphasizes more on plant-based foods, replacing fat from animal sources to plant-based sources. Red meat and other foods high in saturated fats can be replaced by plant-based fats from olive oil, avocado, nuts, seeds, and even fatty fish like tuna.

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