It’s about time I shed some light on this. It’s been, oh, I don’t know, six months since I thought I should write something to this effect.
?Leibel found that the non-obese group, which consisted of 12 men and 14 women who weighed an average of 138 pounds, needed an average of 2,280 calories per day to maintain weight. By contrast, the obese group, an identical number of men and women who weighed an average of 335 pounds, needed 3,651 calories a day. This wasn’t surprising ? the obese subjects weighed nearly two and half times as much as the control group, so it seemed reasonable that they might need an extra 1,400 calories a day to maintain that weight.
So, I guess what I’m saying is that I don’t want to lead anyone to believe that people who are overweight have a ?low metabolism. By that definition, they do not. Not at all.
In fact, one of the reasons obese people die younger and generally have more health problems may very well have a lot to do with all of the excess ?work? that their bodies perform in trying to maintain such a large body mass. If anything, the reason lean people have better health and longevity stats is precisely because they are lean, and their total metabolic expenditure and lower food intakes to maintain body weight are lower.
So I don’t want my definition of metabolism to cause any confusion. When I say ?metabolism,? I mean body temperature. This is a far better indicator of, pound for pound, what kind of hormonal state the body is in. The REAL definition of metabolism is the sum total of all hormonal and metabolic processes within the body ? not just calorie burn or oxygen consumption.
Say what you will about calories and aging, but being in a hormonal state of functional starvation, in which the body is trying to conserve calories by lowering its basal temperature, is an unhealthy state that lends itself to greater rates of both degenerative and infectious disease. And yes, overweight people often do have very low body temperatures despite massive total metabolic expenditure. Plus, being in starvation mode makes you want to eat more, and encourages fat formation out of the food you eat ? increasing total fat mass and total metabolic expenditure.
When you are not in functional hibernation mode, where the body maintains its temperature at ideal levels and is not trying to conserve calories, you don’t store fat. You don’t get bigger. You don’t need to eat more. Your body uses ingested food as energy and expels the excess through heat, activity, an increase in fecal calories, and other mechanisms the body has up its sleeve to prohibit fat accumulation.
So, thin or fat, you want to have a high body temperature ? a prime symbol of the body’s systems firing on all cylinders. This allows life to be lived more fully with greater disease resistance, more energy, better recuperative powers, and so on. It also lends itself to resistance to fat gain, and a well-controlled appetite. In October, with a basal temperature of 96.2 following 5-months of intense exercise and prolonged calorie deficit, even 4,000 calories could barely satisfy my appetite. I’m now getting satisfaction on fewer calories than ever before in my adult life ? an estimated 2,500 calories per day at most, while my body temperature hovers between 97.5 and 98.0.
I guess it all means that my metabolism is working well, not necessarily that it is ?higher? by the more common definition of the term. Hope that clears up any confusion, especially for those that think my eating to appetite on 4,000 calories per day when my body temperature was low was going to somehow compromise my longevity due to excess calorie consumption. No, it made me healthy, got my body out of conservation mode, and allowed me to get more energy and more satisfaction off of fewer calories ? precisely what all the people out there telling you to eat less to live longer are trying to achieve (while generally helping you achieve the opposite effect, due to the Equal and Opposite Reaction of the body discussed in my guest post at Zen to Fitness).
Don’t argue with your appetite. If you do have the inclination to argue with it ? temporarily do so to the upside to get an even more pronounced temperature-raising ‘satisfied on fewer calories? effect.
I’ll wrap this up with an examination of what happens to obese people when they lose weight via calorie restriction, a continuation of Robert Pool’s quote above. Basically, pound for pound, they end up having a far lower metabolic rate than a lean person as the famine response kicks in big time. I guess, as a grand summary, you could say that body temperature paints the most accurate pound for pound portrait of metabolism, but doesn’t indicate total metabolic expenditure, which doesn’t provide much insight:
?What was surprising, though, was the comparison after the weight loss. After the 26 obese patients had lost an average of 115 pounds apiece, they weighed an average of 220, and at this reduced weight their bodies demanded just 2,171 calories a day. In other words, these reduced-obese patients, who still weighed an average of 80 pounds apiece more than the lean subjects, had to eat 100 calories a day less to maintain their weight.
??when Leibel compared the lean subjects and the obese subjects before they had lost weight, he found that it was: while maintaining their weights, the lean patients consumed an average of 1,341 calories per square meter per day, and the obese patients took in 1,432. But the reduced obese were another story altogether. Once they had lost weight, the obese patients needed only 1,021 calories per day per square meters to maintain ? a drop of 28 percent from what their bodies had required before the weight loss.
I dont think obese people die younger because they eat more calories and require more to maintain their weight.
Experiments have proven that those animals with the fastest metabolism live the longest lives.
Obese people die younger because they get various problems from eating to much garbage and as a result get all the degenerative diseases which are associated with that.
If you are overall healthy and eat good food and try to avoid stuff like pufas, to much tryptophan and poisons than you can pretty much eat as much as you want and live a long healthy life.
I agree with that Jannis, for the most part.
But I would think what matters most is total calorie burn per pound of body weight in judging who has the highest metabolism.
I think you'd find that Manuel dude in Mexico to have the world's highest metabolism as a factor of total energy expenditure.
Let's say, being hypermetabolic for your weight is the way to go, not just straight up hypermetabolic compared to other humans who weigh far less than you do.
For example, using the data from the first quote, the lean people were burning about 16 calories per pound of lean body weight.
10.9 per pound for the obese individuals at their peak weight.
That fell to 9.86 at their reduced weight, which is really amazing considering that, at a far lower weight, their ratio of lean body mass to body fat was much higher – but overall calorie burn per pound was still far lower.
Ok that sounds good to me.
Judging the metabolism by calorie burn per pound of body weight is what I meant. I think we should always think of the energy you burn per pount of body weight when we talk about the metabolism.
I know one study where scientist fed rodents the exact amount of calories they needed to maintain their weight. All individuals weighed approximately the same.
Those who needed the most calories to maintain that weight lived the longest lives and those with smallest requirement died first.
I also hope I didn't give JT any wrong ideas about appetite and metabolism. He broght up an excellent point the other day about hunger being symbolic of a high metabolism, not a low metabolism, which is true.
I suspect that once I finish losing weight that my body doesn't need any more, my appetite will come back to a higher level, but who knows. As long as my body temperature is high, I'll be very confident that my body is burning a lot of calories per pound of bodyweight, regardless of how hungry I feel.
Shall we say a "scrappy" metabolism?
This really does clarify things for me. Though it makes so much sense, I don't think I every really put it into a framework of a ratio before.
I'm your height and also eat approx. 2500 calories a day. I dont think that you need far more to have a perfectly healthy metabolsim especially if your food is nutritious!
I wouldn't worry about calories so much. As long as you feel warm, dont get sick and feel good overall your body/metabolism should be fine.
Imo, the best way to get there is to eat nutritious food until you're satisfied whenever you are hungry.
And to the hunger thing. That is good news. Because I have always been a person who I would classify as being hungry a lot. Noticeably more so that many people around me.
When I was a Paleo/Low Carber I thought this to be a metabolic problem. Like some glucose metabolism issue or some crazy shit.
Now I realize that there is a stark contrast between hunger and say hypoglycemia.
Jannis I agree with what you are saying if someone has a healthy metabolism. But Matt and many here at this site have changed my opinion about the lowly calorie. The calorie in and of itself regardless of nutritional composition (I know very vague) can have very powerful therapeutic effects.
Awesome blog post Matt!
Update on my HED one day/LC low calorie the next.I woke up this morning and was amazed when I put on my pants.I did not have to breathe in as hard as I could to buckle them.Just a slight but noticable effect that is eye opening for me since I have starved myself in past down to 1200cal and I could not put on my pants easily.
But I am bloated like nothing I have ever seen.It seems that I am not getting the Arnold effect from a high carb/low carb day.This only happens for me when I am coming off an extended LC period(like 3 days maybe?).So my muscles are not super pumped and didn't seem to suck in the carbs/water but instead my belly is distended like I am pregnant.Seems I have to try a controlled carb meal.
I am gonna try a new experiment next week.In past I used to do a diet where I ate 50gms carbs on rest days and then 130gms carbs on workout days.I was using a whey protein/dextrose combo right after a workout that was around 600cal total.I got good results from this as my muscles would get full and pumped off it but next meal I was right back to LC.Of course I went super low in calories and ruined it all sadly.
This is great for carb sensitive people but if carbs do not make your belly bulge then I think its extreme.It could also be done with potatoes but I find the shake super easy for me.
Matt,I notice that the way higher calorie has me eating less on my low calorie day and hence making it very easy to stick with.I may add 400cal in form of heavy cream to the shake to make for a 1000cal difference on high days.
BTW I love the"highest body temp with lowest amount of food" as healthiest from this post.Makes alot of sense.I fell in to the low calorie/long life span fad yrs back and thats not a good way to live.
What percent of your calories would you say come from pufa? I remember on Whole Health Source you mentioned 1%–do you always maintain that?
Matt – I asked this on an earlier post, but you'd moved on to a new post by then –
Now we're eating real HED style, and in two weeks, I have gained only 6 lbs – but most of it seems to be in my hiney, based on how tight my jeans are! Still, I've been shoveling in enough food to feed an entire small nation. And my question to Matt is, how 'bout them satiety hormones? When do they kick in? Last night I could barely move, I ate so much – my body felt stuffed, but my stomach kept saying, "I would like to eat more". I'm like the Japanese kid with hot dogs, I can just keep going, and nobody knows where it fits. And I've always been that way. It worries me that I don't seem to have a pause button… you say appetite will naturally decrease, and logically I know I'm past full… and every part of my body except stomach says I'm past full… any clues?
My other question is, my temperature jumps all over the darn place. Sometimes with mouth being lower than arm, sometimes one arm two degrees different from the other. One day can be two degrees different from the next. I take my temp the way you suggest. It's a brand new thermometer, so I don't think it's that. Any ideas on that one? Lynn suggested it's because my adrenals are reallly burned out, but would that explain some days mouth being lower than axillary?
Thanks for the clarification, Matt! But could you say "pound for pound" just one more time? Ha ha ha…
Lorelei: Don't worry about your axillary temp being lower than your oral temp—that is normal (rectal and aural temps also differ slightly). I hope you don't get too freaked out by the weight gain. I did HED/180 for a couple of months until my a.m. oral temps reached 98.4 (with 99.1 later in the evening). This week I cut back a little, following Matt's recommendations in his latest 180 D. Metabolism book, and dropped 2 pound in four days. I'm convinced that loading up on calories from good food has indeed primed my metabolism. I was a little surprised at the fast weight loss (I've had trouble losing weight for years), and now I'm taking a couple of days to load up on good food again because I want to protect those temperature gains! I'll continue to experiment with cutting back a few days, then eating HED a few days to see how it goes.
One thing I noticed in the four days I cut back on my food intake was that I had a lot more energy; that was really unexpected. I had to make myself go to bed at night because I wasn't tired.
Matt: I love your new 180 D. Metabolism book! I'm really interested to see if you do the Milk Diet, and how it works out for you. I've got a great source of raw goat's milk, which I drank a tons of during HED. It was really satiating and on my HED days I still drink plenty and love it.
very useful explication, Matt :)
Don't know where to post this and is off topic….sorry.
Rosenfelt!!! Dude,I go to get an update on your milk diet experiment today and find that you are an MMA fighter.Made my morning to watch that and you have a fan in me.Funny that there was no mention of this in the 3 milk diet videos you have.You do mention your a soccer player……oh yeah and I am also cage figher. :)
The knees THE KNEES!!! My favorite move and your good at it!
I wrote that wrong above.I am not a cage fighter….mean't it as you would say it.
Pound for pound, I say pound for pound more than anybody!
Sorry I didn't answer your question the other day. I had hoped somebody else would chime in to answer it on the last thread.
The satiety hormones often take a long time to kick in. On Twitter the other day someone told me it took them 6 months, but that they were feeling the satiety hormones kicking in for the first time they can remember. That doesn't mean you'll be gaining weight perpetually or anything like that. That rarely lasts for more than a month or two unless you are really underweight, undernourished, and overdieted going in.
And yes, the armpit temps. can be highly variable. I take the higher of the armpits and call it my basal du jour. As long as your thermometer shows the same temperature over and over again in each armpit, I think it's safe to call it reliable and consistent.
Great feedback. I think your approach sounds perfect, and thanks for the high 5's on the book. That extra energy probably comes from liberating body fat. A couple of lower-calorie days after overfeeding seems to open the floodgates. Overall, taking baby steps into weight loss is probably the smartest approach. Let us know what you discover from trying to lose some fat while maintaining temperature gains. Overall, I would consider anyone that is overweight being able to lose weight beyond their starting weights while having a higher basal body temperature than the beginning to be a great success. (Okay, confusing statement but you know what I mean – a higher ratio of basal temperature to body weight).
I don't track my diet and PUFA percentages all that carefully, but every now and then I try to get a good estimate. I started the low-PUFA thing right at the beginning of the year. Over the past couple of years, on a high-fat diet, I was anywhere from 6-10% PUFA depending on my carb levels.
This year I've been between 1 and 2% very consistently. I have to be too low in overall fat to hit 1%, and I start to get a little wacky. But 1.5% is probably my average, with maybe 1-1.5 grams of omega 3 and 3 grams of omega 6.
Day 8 of the milk diet, not much to report really, digestion (aside from yellow stools…) and blood sugar control remains pretty perfect. I haven't noticed much difference whether I add some citrus to the milk or not. I've measured my basal temp the past few days and it has definitely gone up, from about 98.2F to 98.6 – 99.0. Oddly, I've gone up a pound since my last weigh-in, even though it looks and feels as if I've lost some weight (and should've lost some weight, considering higher metabolism and slightly lower caloric intake).
Off topic, I was just flipping through some old family photos of me from about age 12 – 18, and it just amazes me to see how plump-faced I used to be back then, even before I started to put on serious weight at about 16. Before that I was a pretty skinny kid, but still had a very puffy and acne-ridden visage. The only thing that seemed to work somehow to reduce this was to go down to a very low level of body fat with chronic caloric restriction, which is what I did from age 18-24.
Compared with now, when I'm much heavier (and arguably fatter) than I've ever been in my life, and yet don't look anywhere near as bad as I used to in my teens. True, I still look a bit worse now than when I was restricting calories, before I gained all this weight, but the difference is much slighter than I would've expected with a 65 pound weight gain. This just goes to show how much more important hormone balance is than body fat level for facial appearance.
Regarding the PUFA vs sugar debate, I think my "diet" in my late childhood and teens was actually relatively low in PUFAS, but atrociously high in refined sugars, white bread and pastries. I didn't have much of a taste for PUFA-rich chips, nuts or fast foods and most of the real food I got was homemade with butter, but I did get probably around 40-50% of my calories from candy, Coca-cola, chocolate and Snickers bars, and a good chunk of the remainder consisted of white bread and skimmed chocolate milk. Though another important factor was probably that I got very little sunlight throughout my teens.
So I think my case folds with the camp that says that displacing too much real food with refined sugars (and possibly getting too little sunlight) is perfectly capable of producing poor health by itself – regardless of a low PUFA intake or not.
Between 97.5 and 98.0? That's where mine's been hovering at for a while now. But I've been continuing to push against my appetite cause I figured I should be pushing it up higher. Maybe I'm fine. Maybe it's time to start working on the belly.
Thanks for the feedback Collden. I experienced the same, but there were some PUFA's in a lot of the sugary crap I ate for sure. The better facial appearance probably has something to do with flushing edema out of the face with a higher basal temperature. Thanks for coming along on this journey though. I have no doubt that you'll lean out quite nicely over the next year or so, and eagerly await to hear of a lean Collden with a body temperature over 98 to go with it – something calorie restriction could've never offered you.
Yeah, I got to about 97.7 and was really too sick of food to continue overfeeding. I was pretty aggressive with it for about 2 months. I hover in the mid-97's right now and seem to be able to punch it up over 98 pretty easily with a massive overfeeding meal. I have no doubt that my milk diet adventures will easily take me the rest of the way and keep me there, but we'll have to wait and see.
Just for arguments sake, it seems like its extremely obvious that over-eating is going to increase your metabolic rate, even if its from "good quality" foods, but I don't think this is necessarily getting to the root of the problems. It could just be masking some deep underlying metabolic issues temporarily, while exacerbating long term health issues. There is little to no evidence that a HED will do anything to keep metabolism up for years and decades to come.
VLC diets as revealed here can mask symptoms for a while before they really come out. Who's to say HED won't do the same. There actually is a good bit of anecdotal evidence that VLC diets can give good health in the intermediate term (say a few years), though there is little to no evidence again for very long term low carb diets. This is assuming that I am talking about modern people who have already destroyed their body's natural ability to process food by years of eating garbage, not non-industrial cultures who seem to be able to thrive on nearly zero-carb diets, the Inuit all the way up to very high carb diets like the Kitavans.
In my opinion, we need to look deeper. The liver's ability to communicate with the gallbladder to allow for proper fat digestion with enough bile secretion can be disrupted with decades of garbage eating allowing for huge stones to develop in both of these organs. Leaky-gut syndrome leaving partially digested nutrients in the blood stream, only for the immune system to respond and attack. Heavy metal toxicity (especially mercury), which will too drown the normal metabolic processes can be a huge concern for others. Adrenal burnout can also cause metabolic stress, especially for those who are low-carb.
So, it seems the human body can be in extremely good health given a variety of dietary inputs if we look at different cultures around the world. We should be able to handle various inputs. Why not look for the true underlying cause and attack that? A HED with high carbs might simply be better at masking all these underlying symptoms, which is fine in the short run, but I think there is much more to it.
If you are interested I would look into liver flushing, mercury amalgam fillings removal, chelating of heavy metals, adrenal and thyroid recovery via eating of adrenals, thymus, and pancreas and if thats not available getting a hold of some freeze-dried glandular supplements. If we truly fix our metabolisms then I think we should be able to eat almost any diet that healthy non-industrial cultures with good health do.
Teddy: I think some of your points are valid and I'm sure most here would agree.
However, the primary purpose of HED (correct me if I'm wrong) is to rebuild and restore what has been lost by eating a deficient diet beforehand. Many of the people here (myself included) have damaged their bodies by undereating and/or eating poor quality foods, many times for years. The idea behind HED is to refeed with quality foods what has been lost during that time, to–for lack of a better term–reprogram the body out of starvation mode.
I definitely think it's important to correct any underlying issues, adrenal health, digestive health, and liver health among them. But that's going to be near impossible to do without a foundation based in eating plenty of real food.
I really agree with your points and I think they all are valid. It's part of why Matt isn't really on board with the WAPF. It's not simply enough to look at primitive cultures and imitate them. We need to figure out how to reverse the damage we've done to our own bodies. The biggest problem for most people are going to be nutrient deficiency and/or years of dieting. This is what HED seeks to address.
You're absolutely right about having a whole picture view. We definitely don't want to making the same mistake with HED that many have already done with LC and VLC. This is where I see Matt's blog eventually moving past HED to focusing on a lot of specific strategies. You could call Matt's focus on PUFAs and fructose the beginning of this. And although it's not been in any official posts, there's already been a lot of discussion on adrenal fatigue (something I'm sure I've suffered from).
Keep in mind HED is still something of an experiment and not intended for long term, so there's not much risk of it's being used to mask symptoms for a long time. Some people probably will get their desired results with HED, but others likely will not. To me HED is just a beginning. From there it will be a lot tougher for each person to figure out. And there we'll be looking at a lot of the things you already mentioned.
Hey Matt, I think in addition to the forums (which hopefully we will have evenutally :) ), I'm wondering if it would be worthwhile to have user guest-posts. I've played around with the idea of having my own nutrition blog for a long time, and perhaps I will. But there seems to be a lot of cross-linking already. You with Stephan at wholehealthsource and Elizabeth at thenourishedlife. I'm guessing there's a lot of people that would like to make their own contributions without necessarily trying to start their own blog or create their own community. Why should we? There's plenty of health blogs already.
One more point on the nutrient deficiency… I'm starting to toy around with the idea of taking supplements although I would never normally think of it.
It seems to be a recurring theme in the blogosphere with the concensus that yeah, generally you shouldn't have to, but maybe it's not a bad idea. It seems people that have done extensive nutritional analysis on their diet invariably find themselves coming up short in one area or another. But on top of that, it is undoubtedly harder now to get adequate nutrition than it was 50 or 100 years ago, even with a whole foods diet. One of the chapters in Nutrition and Physical Degeneration that struck a chord with me was the one about soil fertility. Two chapters actually: "Soil Depletion and Plant and Animal Degeneration" and "Food is Fabricated Soil Fertility". Stephan at wholehealthsource has written on this recently as well. In his latest post http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com2010/04/copper-in-food.html he points out the copper content in vegetables in the UK has dropped 76% since 1940. This is already after Price's observations, so it's not like these trends are reversing.
Aaron, I totally agree.
You do raise some very good points, which I mostly agree with. I definitely think that just looking at diet and macronutrients is far from optimal. Heavy metal detox, digestive problems etc. all deserve great concern. However:
1)I don't think you can compare HED to low-carb or anything. HED was never meant to be anything more than a temporary thing. The question is, will people actually be better after returning from HED/RRARF to a normal diet? Nobody here can really say that, although things do look promising.
2) You really can't blame Matt for not adressing that. Just look at how long it took him to figure out the basics regarding calories, macronutrients, hormones etc. (Actually I think Matt is probably still not even far away from figuring out all that and he probably never will, but he certainly got closer than most people out there (at least in my opinion)). There really is no sense in my opinion to going into more "specific" things before you haven't figured out the basics. After all, heavy metal toxicity etc. probably also are controversial issues.
3) By focussing on the metabolism first, many of those "secondary" problems might not be that much of an issue. I recall Matt saying things like "There is no such thing a carcinogenig substance to an organism with a high metabolism" (not a direct quote, just paraphrased) and I think he also once said that heavy metals are not that much of a problem for a healthy metabolism. Whether this is really the case or nit, I can not judge, but at least it explains Matt's focus on the metabolism. After all the metabolism (and leptin) seem to be some kind of master system, in control of pretty much anything else. So we have to ask ourselves, how many of those problems you mentioned are actually relevant to a healthy metabolism? I certainly do believe that a high metabolsim isn't everything, but before we don't even have a closer picture of that, what's the use of focussing on things that might prove to not be an issue later on anyways.
Phew, this got longer than I planned. Well whatever.
Word, Liz. Most of us are refeeding after years of deprivation. I must take issue with the idea that HED is temporarily masking metabolic problems. First of all its not meant to be a permament thing. It's a tool for rebuilding undernourished bodies. My own case, I was more than four years on low fat diets. I had a brief pause in there to have a kid, but my fats during that time were mostly omega-6. After that I restricted fat to a lesser degree, and began to restrict carbs as well. Some of this was good in that I became aware of restricting refined sugar and flour. However I was still existing on way too few calories, ironically with a net gain of weight, not a net loss. When I started to eat saturated fat and good carbs in an unrestricted manner for the first time in really my whole life, I began to feel better. I don't think this is masking some deeper problem. If anything, the health problems I had like allergies, gum disease and digestive ills began to go away the only time these things come back is when I go out and binge on refined sugar (which still happens sometimes).
I have a question. I've gathered that Matt and others have been able to tolerate fructose while going very low omega 6. My question is how low is low? And for how long? I eat about one restaurant meal a week. That place cooks in butter (and I know it because I see them cooking, it's a greasy spoon). I've cut back on pork, which I was eating quite a lot of, to one serving a week. I've been getting bacon and sausage from a local ranch which lets their pigs forage. (I'm sure they must get some grain feed, in the winter though). We have had salmon once or twice a week for the past few months for the vitamin D. Those are the only omega 6 sources I can think of. The rest has been grassfed beef, lamb, free range eggs, grassfed dairy, butter, coconut oil and ghee.
So should I cut out the fish for a few weeks before starting to bring in some fructose? How long should I eat like this before introducing more fructose. (Right now, I'm having a three or four strawberries, every other day, since they are in season now.)
Matt answered just above where I asked his pufa intake. He says it is around 1-2% of calories. I think this percentage implies that almost all fat comes from ruminants, dairy, coconut, and maybe some fish, as regular consumption of eggs or porkfat would probably increase the percentage to over 5. I've heard Ray Peat aims for 1%, although I don't really see how this can be without a very low fat diet (or I guess hydrogenated…).
I don't have the reference on hand, but I read about concentration of different fatty acids of phospholipids being changed significantly in 9 weeks (the length of the study–maybe it doesn't take that long though). I don't know if this info is useful or not…
I don't think there's any need to cut out fish. Excess omega 3 really isn't the problem here. Getting a gram or two a day is in no way excessive at all, and can actually help overcome AA overload from excessive omega 6 (you just don't want to overdo it).
I appreciate your skepticism Teddy. I'm not trying to be evangelistic either. But I do feel that many of the concerns you brought up are indeed addressed by improving the function of the body as a whole through a metabolism-stoking regimen. I certainly didn't try to improve my digestion before going in. In fact, digestive problems that I had had for years on both high carb and low-carb went away in about 1 week and haven't returned. That was over 11 months ago.
People all over the world have survived with good health on all kinds of macronutrient ratios. Still, human milk, no matter what the mom's diet, is still roughly 50% fat, 40% carbohydrate, and a little less than 10% protein.
And the irony about eating this way, is that it has allowed greater dietary freedom and tolerance for many, myself included. I can eat fruit without hypoglycemic-ish episodes, I can eat a few low-carb meals without digestive problems, and my adrenals are healing. Healing the adrenals or getting the thyroid running at optimal levels is extremely difficult on a highly-restricted diet. It is not just possible but likely that such issues clear up with Rehabilitative Rest and Aggressive Re-Feeding.
But the nature of this site is experimentation, feedback, discussion, research, and monitoring of results to see if there is confirmation of success. So far, so good. Only time will tell what eating a macronutrient-unrestricted, nutritionally-abundant primarily whole foods diet to appetite with plenty of sleep will do over time.
But common sense suggests that it is unlikely to match failure rates on restricted diets. If it does, we're all screwed.
All of you fructose-phobes will like Mercola's new article:
"a Princeton research team has again demonstrated that all sweeteners are NOT equal when it comes to weight gain — rats with access to high-fructose corn syrup gained significantly more weight than those with access to table sugar, even when their overall caloric intake was the same."
i seem to do fine on natural sugars, and even refined ones like sucrose… by no means are they part of every meal.. but, i don't stress over them.. if they are in ice cream, or maybe some in my coffee or tea.
I think i may post some before and after photos, low carb peleo days… compared to now… after following matts aggressive refeed strategy last year… till right where i am right now, eating everything… watching my PUFA, and HFCS intake..
you should definitely post up some before and afters. I have had some pretty dramatic changes as well going from a super low carb paleo to hed
Have many people found they were able to improve their digestion with the HED? I've had problems with this for years and nothing has seemed to work. But I do know that when I overeat, it seems to make things a lot worse, which makes me hesitant to intentionally overfeed rather than just a decent amount.
Defintely get up those pictures Troy, would be cool to see the difference. I myself have changed a load although not as lean as on Paleo my skin is no longer Orange and I look radiant and healthy plus gained a load of muscle. And all of this is about 3 months of just "eating the food" and avoiding HFCS/Omega6 and sticking to wholesome foods when possible.
Once body temp goes up a bit more and weight some BF starts to shed I will also post some before and after pics….
I eat sugar every day, and have no problems with them now. I actually ingest a very large amount during my workouts, and this provides a lot of energy. When I wake up I like to drink my coffee black, and then go work out while I sip a big drink full of sugar. This combination gives me super Ray Peat type of energy and a great sense of well being. I am glad I know about his writings and didn't fall into the anti-sugar dogma!
Guys,you could also use dextrose as your sugar.Its pure glucose.Health food stores sell it right next to the super healthy fructose.
For someone like me its a no brainer since I have a damaged sugar metabolism that is really destroyed.I drink beer on weekends and that causes enough damage on its own so I use the dex to minimize anymore.
Crap, I just posted a lengthy comment, but then Google belched and gobbled up my comment, lost in the internet cosmos forever. Let me try again…
Think of eating big, mixed meals as digestive "strength training." We've likened it to that all along. If you want to be able to eat normal meals like it ain't no thing, and truly cultivate strong and resilient digestion in response to complex meals, then constantly tiptoeing around digestion and eating in ways that make it easier such as small meals, food-combining, cleansing, etc. certainly won't take you there. There's a time and place for digestive rest, don't get me wrong, but sometimes challenging it is what truly gets you to a breakthrough. Give it at least a few weeks. Just that simple change in mindset will work wonders though I bet. That was my experience.
Troy and others-
If you want to share any before and after pics, I'd be happy to put them up here. Just send them to me and I'll throw them up in a blog post.
I'm eating more fruit and natural sugars than ever with less negative reaction than I've felt in years. I am a refined-sugar phobe, but even so I have a relaxed approach. Like Friday night – I went out and had some apple crisp and ice cream for dessert with my meal. That kind of thing.
The idea of what a metabolism is is coming into focus. With waking temps below 97, low low energy, weakness and 150 pounds of extra body fat I assumed I was hypothyroid. I was wrong. As a matter of fact my T4 was a little high. T3 was normal. Hemoglobin was 8. And I'm Type 2 diabetic. So I guess my anemia and diabetes are making me feel terribly fatigued? Being heavy sucks. Being heavy and tired all the time is robbing me of joy. I'm depressed and grouchy all the time. Sometimes I'll eat a bit of dark chocolate just for the feel-good high. I've been off caffeine for one year. Caffeine was my go to drug for feeling good (so was Ritalin which I also gave up). I'm eating to appetite but not quite doing three meals per day. Preparing food is a herculean effort. I graze, nibble at veggies and cheese and meat and sip raw milk all day and usually end up eating more at night. I'm just reading and learning and hoping I can pull myself out of this.
We're all hoping for you Lisa. Like I've said before, if your problems can be solved, after 30 some-odd years of failed attempts through nearly every current strategy known, then we will have all learned something very valuable, and be capable of solving just about anyone's metabolic predicament.
But you have reported eating to appetite on a macronutrient-unrestricted diet and even shedding a few pounds doing so for the first time in your life (excluding post weight loss surgery).
That, in and of itself, is a big first step.
Digestive strength-training, I like that. You're right, in the past when I have allowed myself to eat without restraint my digestion improved, but when I tried to focus too much on it the problem seemed to get worse and worse until I could barely eat anything.
It seems counterintuitive, but listening to the body's "weaknesses" really doesn't always provide the best results…
This is really one very strong distinguishing factor between 180D and other health entities like metabolic typing or something like that. The goal is core improvement, not avoidance of problematic areas or weaknesses. Everyone would look at leg strength or deltoid strength this way. Few, however, have extended this to the digestive tract or the metabolism as a whole.
I have better energy from sucrose than glucose, and I have experimented extensively with both. Dextrose is usually made with GM corn, has no vitamins or minerals, and has a higher insulin response.
Glad to see you are finally healing enough to get the benefits of sugar. Hopefully some day you will be able to enjoy the benefits of a Peatian metabolism. But, the most important thing is you are starting to have a more healthy approach to food, and actually be able to enjoy it.
Regarding metabolic typing, HED will not improve someones metabolism to the point that a carb type will be healthy on a low carb diet, or the other way around. HED will only work when someone eats right for their type.
Could you post some more of your thoughts on why resistance exercise will not do anything beneficial when trying to lose fat. I still think you are way off on this. Every person I have seen who has gotten lean and muscular has done the opposite of what you are saying.
I've always believed that fruit is a healthful food, it's just a matter of being healthy enough to derive its benefits.
As far as metabolic typing, I don't really believe in the premise of it in the slightest. Just there are no "types" of human breast milk, I don't believe there are some ethereal "types" of diets for certain "types" of people. There are only weaknesses, such as an inability to properly metabolize carbohdyrates – causing many people to fare better on a low-carb diet and imbalances – causing someone to need, say, a very high-carb diet after prolonged low-carb eating.
As for resistance exercise, it is needed to preserve skeletal muscle when LBM is in calorie deficit. But LMB should never be in calorie deficit. If it is, you are doing damage. That's why lean fitness freaks are some of the most unhealthy and shortest-lived people on earth (steroids and protein shakes probably help with that too). That's why the leanest I've ever been was also the most unhealthy I've ever been both physically and mentally.
But you don't need resistance exercise to be lean and muscular. You do need it to be freakishly, unnaturally, and unhealthfully lean and muscular.
I became quite lean and muscular without resistance exercise on Schwarzbein-style diet – 6 pounds leaner than the pig's head photos in fact. No exercise at all, much less resistance exercise.
Kind of a carry over from the other post comments, but what do you feel about this study? I know its not perfect but it is interesting.
"A limit on the maximum energy transfer rate from the human fat store in hypophagia is deduced from experimental data of underfed subjects maintaining moderate activity levels and is found to have a value of (290+/-25) kJ/kgd. A dietary restriction which exceeds the limited capability of the fat store to compensate for the energy deficiency results in an immediate decrease in the fat free mass (FFM)"
You are in my opinion making the #1 mistake in the diet world, by dismissing the importance of individualizing. The top strength and conditioning coaches in the world would disagree with you statements. Paul Chek and Charles Poliquin write extensively on the importance of finding out the correct diet for the type of individual. Strength and bodybuilding coaches are the ones that would know better than anyone about this because they work with thousands of clients and have to get results. Ayurveda and TCM also know the importance of adjusting treatment to an individuals condition. The thing these people have in common is that they aren't just speculating on what works in theory, they come to this conclusion from working with many, many people for a long time. What is good in theory is not always good in practice.
The people who are most adamantly against any sort of individual type are the low carb, vegan, and fruitarian gurus. They all say the same thing, that there is one optimal diet for all humans. The problem is it isn't true, what works for one person will be poison for another. I would shrivel up and die if I ate the Eskimo diet, and they would probably be sick and obese if they ate mine.
You should really see if you could develop a personal coaching clientele. After coaching many people on this and seeing the results I would like to hear if you opinion has changed over the years.
The best tool out there for preserving lean body mass is resistance training. If you want to be lean and muscular then you should do it. All the experts who practice in this field agree on this. Where are you getting your information on this?
When you ate the Schwarzbein diet you were eating right for your type, so you were able to gain muscle. You are the perfect example for the need of individualizing diets. When I ate this diet I gained a lot of fat.
Another thing you need to understand is that you were a young male when this happened. An older person or a female will not have the same results. They will have to work even harder with resistance exercise.
I will say that you are right if your goal is just to look pretty normal and not real fat. I think most people can do this without much resistance exercise.
For all those attempting the milk diet, be warned! I was on my third day of it yesterday and I was starting to get really restless… so I went to go play some tennis with a friend. My temp had been pretty consistent in the 97.7-97.9 range, but then this morning it dropped to 97.4! Gah. I really am itching to go play outside :[
So, once temps are upto 98.9 will the excess fat come off without change in diet? ot do we have to change or reduce anything.
I incorporated chia seeds as an omega 3 source and my hunger levels are down also cravings are really reduced too. I take 2 tbsps a day with water.
@ JT: I think you are correct when it comes to individualising but it is not of the importance people like Chek make it out to be.
We can all reach a great level of health and body comp on a similar and optimal diet (what that is, we don't know or sure but it is definitely low refined foods) To reach a superb level of body comp or maybe even to treat disease etc – then some individualisation may need to be looked into, hence why it is so popular with people like Poliquin and Chek as they need to squeeze every last ounce of performance from clients….
For the majority of us who are just looking for freedom when it comes to food while maintaining a lean body and stable mood/energy Matt is on the right track with his core ideas…
Lisa – I think I've read a number of places (Schwarzbein?) that grazing or eating constantly is not as good for you. But you've made so many good changes already, I wouldn't stress over it! Keep going!
Matt – thanks for your answer about satiety. I think I got my own answer this weekend – I spent the last 3 days (TMI coming up) sleeping on a mattress in the bathroom, practicing involuntary IF and calorie cycling. Of course, based on the symptoms it could have been food poisoning, but since nobody else in the family got sick, I tend to think my body was saying enough. On the plus side, my temp was 99 – does that count :)?
Have a good vacation! Get some sun so people can't accuse you of looking pasty anymore!
I personally dont believe in this metabolic typing mambo jambo. I think different "metabolic types" occur because people come from different diets and different enviromental backgrounds. At the ends our biochemistry is the same. But I think you are right about sugars and Peat. I'm really digging into Peats work and have found out that when I eat starch and sugar 50:50 I feel much better than on starch only.
Yesterday I had only milk, orange juice and some cheese for dinner. After an hour I began feeling energized and my hands got really warm. I also slept without any interuption which I normally dont…
@Jannis: I have to agree with you and I think Matt already hit it on the spot regarding metabolic typing:
"There are only weaknesses, such as an inability to properly metabolize carbohdyrates – causing many people to fare better on a low-carb diet and imbalances – causing someone to need, say, a very high-carb diet after prolonged low-carb eating."
I think metabolic typing is good at adressing an imbalance that might be going on. The fact that metabolic types can change over time just underlines that. A counter-balancing behaviour is only balancing as long as it actually works against the imbalance not with it. I hope you get what I'm trying to say here. If you go super low-carb because you can't metabolize carbs correctly, you might end up not being able to metabolize fats and need to reindtroduce carbs.
So metabolic typing in my opinion can be a very useful tool to counterbalance things, but isn't balanced all on itself. Just at Jannis said, in the end our biochemistry is the same and as long as you are eating the "ideal" diet, whatever that is, you probably won't be at risk ever getting out of balance.
Oh, and also that sugar thing is very interesting, Jannis. It still seems counterintuitive to me, but many people have great success with it and I can't deny that. Maybe I'll give it a try once. But not now. I'm already consuming quite some good amounts of milk already and I think that really helps me, though I wonder how much this actually has to do with the sugar or just because milk is such an awesome, complete food.
I have only been doing this sweet experiment for a week. And dinner yesterday was the first time ever I just ate sugar without any starch. I dont know where this is leading me to yet. But at this very moment I'm feeling really good!
I didn't feel a difference when I was eating the same amount of milk together with starch. So I thought lets give Peat a chance. Today I had some potatos together with cheese and coconut oil and about 500-600 ml of fresh orange juice for lunch. Gave me constant energy for my swimming class. I felt quite relaxed after swimming and not as exhaustedt as usual.
Jannis and Madmuhh, you both mentioned that since our underlying biochemistry is the same so there is no need for individualization. The greatest nutritional biochemist of the last century was Roger Williams, and he was famous for espousing the belief in nutritional individuality. I personally am skeptical of the metabolic type tests and guru advice. I think it is better to go off of ones own experience.
I don't know why people do better on different types of diet. It could be because of genetics, environment, lifestyle, or past diet history. It doesn't really matter to me either, but the truth is these differences exist
There probably is no "ideal" diet. It will be different for different people.
I'm not discrediting individuality or the fact that some people do better on certain diets than others. There are infinite ways in which we take our core biology and change it dramatically through environment, heredity, past diets, and so on.
Schwarzbein's diet WAS perfect for the imbalance I had at the time, which was spending years eating a very high-sugar mostly-vegetarian diet. But it also led to imbalances over time, which eating a higher-sugar, lower-fat, higher-carb diet fixed. I believe in balance and counterbalance, and all diets can be healing or poison, that is correct, based on the imbalance of an individual.
Calling it a "metabolic type" and sticking someone with a certain diet for life greatly suppresses that "inner voice" that leads us to different foods and different diets at different times as our bodies all help us to find balance (which would be easy without refined foods, seed oils, flavor enhancers, etc.).
Zero carbers would probably find a fruitarian diet to give them the quickest relief from health problems developed on ZC. A fruitarian would probably find ZC to be the quickest route to overcoming health problems developed on a fruitarian diet. Seasonally, many humans had huge variance in their diets, coming out through the course of a year with balance in the end while never being on a balanced diet at any given time.
The problem IS the guru that recommends one imbalanced way of eating for life for all people.
I am experimenting with more sugars and will let you know what it leads to once I resume it post milk-diet. But milk sugar and fructose are night and day – almost as different as bread and butter. I do know that I tend to get a little wacky on a diet with no starch at all. A 50:50 blend sounds doable to me. But I'm already responding to sugar much differently than in the past. In the past, sweet foods triggered an instantaneous histamine response. That is no longer occurring, presumably due to my low omega 6 intake for the past 15 weeks.
A high temp. while ill won't get you into the hot chicks club, but you are a likely candidate in the future for sure.
…Then go play outside.
Just want to throw in a word of encouragement for Lisa who is struggling and feeling down. You've made big strides forward. We're proud of you!
Yes, being overweight is very stressful and exhausting. I've started doing the Gabriel Method (using Matt's nutritional advice) and have found that it's been very helpful for stress and for re-energizing. He recommends taking power naps for energy and doing simple meditative exercises throughout the day. Neither of these things take very much time, but they seem to be quite powerful. In just three days, I feel way more encouraged and less frustrated with my body.
Another interesting thing he points out is that if you have more than 100 pounds to loose, you should get yourself tested for sleep apnea. Sleep apnea can destroy the sleep you are getting so that you feel exhausted all the time.
Speaking of histamine responses – I'm on day 8 of my milk diet and had a big histamine response this morning. I *did* drink about 4 oz of beet kvass because I needed the bottle it was in and didn't want to waste it. Shortly after that my sinuses started filling up, started sneezing and my nose started running. Sneezing has stopped (2 hrs later) but head still feels full of mucous.
I guess it was the kvass, not sure why though. I have a similar experience on a much smaller scale each morning when I wake up. Sure hope this milk kicks in soon to clear all that up.
Temperature is holding steady at 98.6 degrees. I'm thankful for that, but haven't seen other improvements so far. Not sure how much longer I can keep this up though since it takes me 3-4 hours to go get more milk.
As we approach Milk May, I'm wondering why MacFadden recommend citrus with milk (unpasteurized) is it for the digestive enzyme's killed in pasteurization? And I'm assuming he meant an orange eaten with milk, not orange juice squeezed into the milk, right?
If you want a good book recommendation for using meditation… this is it.
Telementation by Jeffrey Grupp.
Thanks Troy. I'll check it out. I used to laugh at this stuff, but I'm all about the power of the mind, suddenly.
Thanks for that recommendation, may check that out.
Currently I'm trying to meditate every evening.However, I don't always do it even though I clearly notice how meditating is much "harder" when not having meditated for a few days. I'm still rather new at it, but sometimes it can be very powerful.
In my opinion relaxation, de-stressing and a positive outlook are huge. It really changes a lot and I also think that one of the strongest parts of the HED or RRARF is the regained positive relationship to food. That really does a lot, too, so you peeps better apologize to the potatoe if you haven't done already. ;-)
If what you stated above is your stance, then we agree 100%.
I don't think classification of a metabolic type is important at all. What is important is listening to your body and giving it what it needs at that time. Needs vary and change depending on an individual's state.
MadMUH we need to have some kind of new age ceremony where we apologize to the potato. Maybe we should all face in the direction of Idaho at noon on the solstice and chant, "I love you potatoes. You are good for me. I'm sorry I mistreated you."
Matt and Jannis, If you are experimenting with Peats advice on the sugars, then try it with the caffeine as well. It provides a synergistic effect on the metabolism like Peat says. You also need to do it without mixing it with the starches to get the full experience. Like I have stated before, I like to drink my coffee black and then sip on the sucrose drink. Great energy!
Concerning changing diets to the current needs of the body, I had an interesting conversation the other day with a couple people that are into raw foods and the like.
The idea is that we should be eating seasonally. I think most cultures, or at least cultures in temperate climates worked this way. It may matter more if you're outdoors more and more connected with the earth in some way. We're so disconnected it's hard to find the inner voice telling us what our bodies want.
I'm not sure we necessarily need to eat seasonally, but it does give credence to the idea that no one diet may be perfect all the time.
I never could get into the sit silently for periods of time kind of meditation. I find myself to be much more suited to task oriented "meditation". Such as finding relaxation, reflection, focus while say sweeping, mowing, cooking, biking, etc.
Haha! The northeast Jenny, the northeast. We need to face the northeast.
LOL! Did anyone else read ADD with my last post?
Or face Ireland, Jenny :) but i am with you in this time of repentance
I love the idea of facing Ireland! Or maybe South America since isn't that where potatoes originated? Didn't the Inca's spread them throughout their empire?
From the website,"History of Potato" (apparently not the history of spelling). "In the ancient ruins of Peru and Chile, archaeologists have found potato remains that date back to 500 B.C. The Incas grew and ate them and also worshipped them."
Nathan by OCD can beat up your ADD anyday.
Yeah, I know being sick doesn't count. My post-involuntary-fasting temp this morning seems to be about .5 lower than before I got sick. Bah humbug. But boy, if the emaciated look were popular I could win some contests!
Jenny, the first thing I ate when I could was a piece of bacon, and the second thing was a potato, cooked in broth, with lotsa butta. And then I had another one. My own homage to the poor potato which, prior to this past month, did not cross my lips for over a year. And I'm going to have some for lunch. My Irish gma would be proud.
maybe I will do that for a few days because I think that sugars such as sucrose or lactose have the ability to improve your metabolism i.e. get the thyroid working really well. Additionally I will eat a decent amount of high quality protein from cheese and eggs plus a good amount of SFA from butter and coconut oil.
But in the long term I will definitely get the major part of my carbohydrates from starchy sources like potatos. Tubers are awesome and should be part of everyones diet. They contain lots of minerals and vitamins as well as some very high quality protein. The finest tribes Price visited all ate Potatos. Besides they are a part of all my favorite meals. I couldn't live without them.
I've been loving the potatoes lately too. Never really used to think about them except for french fries at restaurants. Fried in butter with some onions, eggs and sour cream on the side.
Oven fries are the new black:
Boil potatoes, cut them into chunks toss them in hot coconut oil and roast them at 375 till golden brown. Yum.
Also, last night the boy insisted, INSISTED I make scalloped potatoes. He kept coming inside every fifteen minutes to see if they were done. I'm so proud of him.
What about someone like me who is killed by caffeine. It makes me so stimulated that I get ill. Even a little bit makes my heart beat really hard and I get this uncomfortable feeling in my body, like I've been poisoned or something. When I need to stay up late, I mix 2 regular coffee beans in with decaf, and drinking that at 7 AM keeps me well up after 2 in the morning. What does that mean?
I just have to point out that with the new fruit/sugar experiments we are pretty much back to ….BRUCE!
"I just have to point out that with the new fruit/sugar experiments we are pretty much back to ….BRUCE!"
Ha, and JT is the latest 'Bruce' incarnation.
Everything goes back to Bruce in the end, my friend.
Anyway, been trying this gelatin thingy of Peat, and it makes food much tastier, makes me calmer, and allows me to eat a lot more protein. Those are all good things. I guess the sicker you are the more you notice. I DO not seem, however, to tolerate sugar well.
I find it amusing that I'm struggling to get off of sugar and others here are trying to include more of it. Without I doubt I do not handle refined sugar well, I'm not quite sure I understand the rationale behind any benefits that it may have. Especially having just watched "The Bitter Truth".
Its thought and feelings… and not just the mind…
It obviously means that coffee has a strong effect on you. If I was you I wouldn't drink much. Like I have said many times before, there is no "optimal" diet, and there are no "healthy" foods. What is good for me, may be poison for you. But, adding sugar will mitigate some of stress response you get from the caffeine, so you could try that or milk.
Does the same thing happen when you consume other types of caffeine, or just with coffee. If it is just the coffee then maybe it is some other chemical and not the caffeine that you are reacting to.
Bruce is one of my internet heroes, and a true genius! We disagree on a few things though.
i miss bruce also…
Thanks for the response. It happens with coffee or tea, so I avoid both unless I need to stay up really late. Neither sugar nor milk does anything. I did some research and learned that there is a small percentage of the population that metabolizes caffeine slowly, so it can stay in your system for 12+ hours. That is definitely me. It kind of sucks actually, other people can get a nice short-lived boost from a tasty cup of coffee, while I get so jacked I take several bowel movements and can literally feel my intestines squeezing!
To all Peat fans:
Are his articles the sole resource for his opinions or does he post info anywhere? It's just that occasionally I get the impression that some individuals may have an additional source of info.
I've been givin' HED (ahem) a try for the last couple of months and have experienced a fair amount of weight gain (lean and fat) with about 0.8? increase in temps. Feeling somewhat better but not great yet. Definite improvement tho.
Anyway, whilst I seem cool with potatoes, I just don't seem to feel 'right' on anything like rice, oats etc. Yesterday I drank 2 glasses of orange juice and ate a few apples instead of brown rice with dinner and felt totally energised to the point that I found it hard to fall asleep last night. I haven't done fruit for a while since the fructose controversy started and before then any intake would have been in the solid presence of pufa's which I now avoid.
From what I understand, Peat regards fruit as the best dietary carb so for the next few days I'm going to replace my starch with fruit and see how it goes. I fully understand why Matt is in disagreement on this issue but I can't help thinking that there are unknown factors that will explain the seemingly paradoxical results people experience.
Matt – Awesome rewrite of the metabolism book and at the risk of getting gushy I thank you for giving HED to me and everyone else here :-)
There are a lot of interviews with Peat out there. Just google his name and you will find them. Some of my infos I get directly from Peat himself via mail.
@all those tater comments:
It's kinda funny. Before my low-carb phase I never really liked potatoes that much, except for fried potatoes, which are obviously super awesome. But now I eat potatoes like there's no tomorrow and I love it! I'd estimate somewhere between 500g and 1kg per meal.
I have to admit one of the first things that attracted me to 180 degree Health was Matt's stance on potatoes. Man! I love em!
I had abnormally high temps this morning. Highest reading was 98.9, lowest was 98.4. Usually I'm in the upper 97 range. I'm wondering if it was the couple beers I had last night. I've been incorporating raw milk since Saturday but it's not been a significant portion.
Anybody else experience sudden large jumps? I feel really warm right now. Bad sleep though. Not sure if that affects it.
Drinking alcohol seems to make your body temps go up the next morning (not at the time you are drinking though). There are several people, including me, who seem to have noticed this. In fact my highest temp I ever had until now was after having drunk alcohol the night before.
AaronF, Alcohol can increase cortisol levels which will cause your body temperature to rise. I actually always had a high body temperature when I was low carb, because my cortisol and adrenaline levels were so high. Body temperature is only one measurement of a healthy metabolism, and not the most important. The most important measure is how you feel.
Problem is, adrenaline makes you feel so good.
For the record, Brian, I have no plans to try to eat more refined sugar. I'm personally opposed to the whole sugar industry, which uses exploitative labor practices. Sugar is slavery and it has been for three hundred years. I'd like to include more fructose, fruit and honey, (Not HFCS) Responsibly produced sugar, as rare as it is to find, is a good thing to support, so I use it on the rare occasions when I bake. I think that most of us must tolerate some refined sugar in our lives, just to not be the total kill joy, but mostly it's a pernicious evil that I hate with a passion I formerly reserved for certain members of the Bush administration.
I actually get what JT is saying about sugar and exercise. I've used sugar when I was running long distance and it was the difference between slow recovery and fast, sluggish performance and feeling good. If I were to return to distance running there's no way I'd do so without using sugar. But that's a bridge I'll cross when I get to it, if I do.
Hey Collden, who is the milk diet going?
Well, it's going fine I guess, though I'm not sure it's doing much for me that the HED wasn't, so far.
I can say I don't dig what it's doing to my mouth, The lactose sticks to the teeth almost as bad as regular sugar, and the past few days it feels like I'm getting some kind of calcium plaques at the back of my mouth and tongue, not to mention my whole tongue is white by the end of the day and my breath aint too good either. Anyone else experiencing this? Never had any such problems with my mouth on the regular low-sugar HED, sometimes I could go days without brushing and yet feel rather fresh.
Still, I love the simplicity of it and the time you save on cooking meals.
JT,I feel dextrose is better.Am I scared by Johnson/lustig,probably.My grandmother lived to 100 drinking cups of cafe con leche all day long with tons of sugar.I will tell you this,coming from a severe hypoglycemic,I get worse from sugar than from starch.I had a pint of Hagen Daz the other night after feeling great all day and went all hypo like crazy.Ice cream is low glycemic so whats up?
I know you feel its the adrenaline deficiency and I do agree but what causes the massive adrenaline output….low blood sugar.So we are now looking at effect first and not cause.
Its like a last defense so that if glucagon doesn't raise BS then adrenaline is released.With burnt adrenal glands(most likely mine are)you are now screwed.But again you are running on last defense if your worried about adrenaline deficiency.
Crazy how the newest study showed that HFCS in same amounts as sucrose cause a large difference in fat gained.
Day 9 of milk diet.
For some masochistic reason, I went and stood on the scale. I've gained 25 lbs since starting RRARRF 2 months ago. The last 5 gained have been while on the milk diet. Pretty depressing.
I swallowed my pride last week and went and got some clothes that fit – but now I'm afraid I'll have to go up even another size.
BBT are up, but the thrill of that is wearing off. 98.7 this morning.
Please, no comments JT. Even if you mean well. I'm too vulnerable to the suggestion of cutting calories right now.
Yeah, that can happen. I gained 50 pounds and had to go and buy new pants twice within my first seven weeks on the HED. After that the fat gain simply came to a screeching halt and the pants I bought then fit me just as well today after 6 months on the HED.
Collden, thanks for getting back to me. I get that same mouth stickiness, yucky breath from drinking room temp pasteurized milk, too. I usually swish some water in my mouth afterward to clear it. I guess if you are drinking non stop, it will build up much worse. I wonder if this is happening to the raw milk folks?
Yes, I have a furry white tongue and lots of plaque on my teeth. I don't bother brushing them but once before bed each day because it comes back so quickly.
Jenny, I don't know much about the sugar industry, but I do tend to see sugar itself as more of a drug than a food. I like to have balance, but for me with sugar it seems pretty hard. If eating a food just makes me hungrier for more of it, there's something wrong there. Not to mention the energy crashes, ugh. Maybe the problem is more with my own biochemistry than the sugar, I don't know.
I think I've had similar blood sugar spikes from putting too much honey in my tea too. Could just be my own sensitivity.
But yeah, no better way to be a kill-joy than to say not to cake at a party ;)
I guess individual set points really do differ greatly, I packed on 10lbs in two months and stable til this day, at 6.5 months RRARF. my basal temps are still low, I suspected that I would gain alot more then this.
Day 2 of the raw Milk Diet for me, I was sure I would get the 'runs' since milk caused lactose intolerance symptoms in the last few years. But holy crap, major runs for both days so far. I guess my gut flora is as screwed as I thought it was, and is coping to digest the 6 quarts per day…
Mega white tongue here too Colld?n, that is supposed to go away either while on diet or when you stop.
Brian H the best way that I have found to get around the hole cake at party faux pa is just eat a shit ton of the food, and I mean pack it down inappropriately so. Then just exclaim that you are far too full for cake. And because you made such a spectacle of yourself with the superhuman volume of food you just consumed nobody really finds it strange that you don't want cake.
Totally true Nathan. I've eaten embarrassingly huge portions to avoid cake. As a hostess though I do like to have some sweets, within reasonable limits when we entertain. People just expect it. It's like having a wedding and not serving booze. I don't think it should be attempted. We are living in a society.
Sounds like a good solution to me. Eating more seems like the solutions to many problems.
Speaking of eating lots, I told my friend today I usually eat 3 eggs and potatoes in the morning and he started ranting about how much fat are in eggs. I got defensive and told him his brain was lacking fats, it's the only damn meal that I've been stable with.
Do you often have people commenting on your diet? I don't really care but I don't always feel like arguing about it.
mmmmmm… eat cake… and beer!!!! haha… just kidding… ummm…,,,,, not. If you really want cake.. eat some… if not don't… eat whole foods first… good advice… hya' hya' heeha'
Brian: He was worried about the fat in the eggs? LOL That's a good one. I mean, geez, there's only what, 4 grams per egg? That's almost nothing. Maybe he meant to freak out about the cholesterol… which is also unfounded but would make more sense. You're right about his brain lacking fats, though. ;)
the fat in eggs…holy shit!
Oh gosh, I try not to tell anyone how we eat…especially the raw milk. My MIL is always freaking out because my husband eats 2 eggs every morning…says the cholesterol is so bad and that he will get so sick. She NEVER says anything about the cholesterol in meat, shellfish, or dairy. It's just ignorance. People hear something on TV and just believe it and repeat it. Not many people really know the composition of foods like we do. So whatever, it's really none of their business anyways.
Ok, so I just want to give an update on myself. I've been doing the hcg diet the past 2 weeks with the homeopathic drops, not with the RX injections. First two days were load days so I ate as much as I could, especially of high fat foods. After the first day I had lost a pound (weird) and after the second day I was up a pound from the first day.
Now I've been eating 500 calories per day for 13 days. There is not a huge selection of foods to choose from and I'm starting to get bored, but it is short term so I can do it. It is almost fat free, no added oils, but you do eat the small amount of fat that is in chicken breast, fish, or lean meat. So I eat 2 100g servings of protein, 2 fruits, 2 veggies, and 2 grissini (light breadsticks) a day. Plus, lots of tea and water.
The first day was horrendous, I had a terrible headache and was very light headed. Second day no headache, but I was still light headed. Since then I have actually felt very well. I'm not hungry either (well, no more than usual anyways,) although I have cheated almost every day, but very minor cheats (like a couple extra bites of chicken or something like that.)
I have lost 13 pounds so far, which I'm very happy about. Of course, I don't really know if it is fat or what, but my face and neck look slimmer and my waist and butt too.
The surprising thing is my body temp…it is actually going up. At the start of HED my body temps were between 95 and 96 and before starting hcg my temps were usually in the high 96s up to a 97.2 max. Now this past week I've had temps of 97.5, 97.8, 97.9, and even 98.1. I wasn't expecting this and I think it's very interesting.
I'm going to keep doing this for another 2-4 weeks, and then the hard part I think will be stabilizing the weight (this is supposedly when you reset your set point,) and then I can eat pretty much normally for a while before I do another round. I'm not going to the gym anymore either. I am going outside and swimming a lot though.
Ok, just thought I would let you guys know how it's going. I know some here were curious about hcg just like me. Will update again soon.
As far as 'avoiding the cake' I've adopted a new strategy in the past 6 months that's really working.
At the beginning, when someone would offer me cake or ice cream or something, I'd say, "no thanks – I'm more of a salt-lover than a sweet lover", or "I don't really care for desserts". Which is a huge lie, but no one really knew that. And for the people who did know about my sweeth tooth, I'd say "You know what, I seem to be losing my sweet tooth. I'm starting to just not enjoy sweets anymore – I prefer salty things."
This worked like a charm… firstly, no one questions you if you say you don't like something. They only question you if they think you're somehow depriving yourself for the sake of a diet or health or what have you. So if you imply that you just don't really like something, they immediately stop bothering you about it. And the best part is now that everyone knows me to "not like sweets", they don't even offer anymore!
Plus, the longer I did it, the more true it became. I actually never crave sweets anymore.
Oh and also, if I have a party, I always get someone else to bring dessert, rather than make one. This way, I can leave it up to them to bring what they like 'since sweets don't really interest me'. LOL And then I busy myself making coffee or tea while everyone else is eating the dessert.
Interesting about your temperatures going up on hcg diet since my temperatures are actually going down on the milk diet
Hey Vida! I actually bought the hcg online, but have been too scared to take it! I feel like I want my metabolism to be roaring first if I even consider trying it. Plus, as I mentioned, I now have a full-blown phobia of dieting, so the whole 500-cal thing is just such a major turn-off, even if it is being supplemented by body fat.
That and I work in the food industry, so finding 30ish straight days, or whatever, where I can live on steamed tilapia and sawdust, would be… challenging, to say the least.
And seriously – ew.
But keep us posted! I'm really curious about it and I love that it's working for you. The temperature thing is awesome! I must say, the biggest concern is the 'stabilization' period and seeing if the weight comes back after eating normally. I'd really like to know how that part goes for you.
Basically, I just had a feeling in my gut that I should not try it at this juncture. Not that I never will, but just not right now. I'm a real gut-man. I can't NOT follow it.
I fear the rapidity of the weight loss and the rebound hyperphagia as well. Though I'm glad to hear that your temps are stable Vida. That's good news.
I've become diet-phobic as well, Annabelle. 500 calories a day just sounds terrifying. After months of struggling to get that many calories in at breakfast, I can't imagine doing it for a whole day.
Glad I'm not the only diet-phobe around here. The idea of cutting calories and/or carbs scares me to death. I'll try it for a day or two sometimes and then feel so miserable I can't go on.
I was actually thinking of this last night (in light of the whole Gabriel Method discussion, haven't read it yet but will soon). I was wondering if deep down I'm afraid to lose weight? I mean, every single time I've lost weight in the past I've damaged my health and ended up gaining it all back anyway. Aside from the momentary joy of being able to button a smaller pair of jeans, losing weight has honestly been nothing but a disaster to me. What if I'm subconsciously unwilling to lose weight because I'm afraid of damaging my mental and physical health again?
Not really trying to delve into psycho babble here, it's ust a thought…
Elizabeth, I understand the questioning whether or not your body wants to hang on to the fat for emotional reasons. In my case, I think it might be because I grew up obese and every Tom, Dick and Harry had an opinion about my body and what it should look like, from doctors to teachers to parents to my parents' friends… People would chastise my parents for 'letting' me get so fat. My body was a huge source of shame for them, since having fat children was their ultimate nightmare. No wonder both their kids ended up fat!
I, to this day, have anxiety attacks whenever someone compliments me for losing weight. I get angry – like who are you to judge my body, even if it's in a positive way? I feel, deep down, like being fat is my form of rebellion. My way of putting my middle finger up to all the people who have an idea of the way I *should* look.
I try not to dwell on it or convince myself that this is the 'real' reason for my excess fat, because I'm sure it isn't, but I think it's been a contributing factor in my struggle to lose the weight in a lasting way and it's definitely something I would like to let go of.
I can' wait for the forums. Every one has such different stories/starting points/challenges/health needs etc hopefully with the forums, each person could introduce themselves and give a brief biography :)
If dextrose works for you then stick with it. But, I wouldn't be scared by the fructose alarmists. Read Alan Aragon's blog on fructose alarmism to see the other side. Matt commented there as well. You need to isolate your variables to see what is causing your hypoglycemia, it could be some sort of food allergy or something that you are blaming on sugar.
I am not going to advise you to cut calories. I think you should finish what you started and give Matt's diet a fair try. The reason many people fail is because they have now willpower and give up too early. You are doing Matt a big favor by being one of the first to test out his theory, hopefully he will comment more to guide you through this process.
Undertow and white tonguers,
In Ayurveda a white build up on the tongue is due to Ama (toxins) building up in the body, usually because the body is not digesting the food properly.
Good luck on your new protocol. A high body temperature makes sense. As I have mentioned before when I was low carb I always had a high body temp because my adrenaline and cortisol levels were so high. Your low calorie diet is probably causing your body to raise these hormones too so that it can give you enough energy.
Your low body temp is probably due to the opposite reason Vida is having high body temps. I wouldn't worry about it, your body is probably in rest and relaxation mode, body temp is not everything.
Right on about the response to criticism even if it's positive. A value judgment is still a value judgment.
About cake, and for that matter, cookies, donuts, brownies, whatever. I've always struggled with how to respond to that. It seems there's always some occasion for people to have sweets around, even if the occasion is no occasion. And I never liked the implication that since I'm skinny I have no problem, or need "to put on some weight". As if weight is the only measure of health. Now that I have small belly from HED, hopefully that will stop.
So both alcohol and low-carb raise body temps via increase in adrenaline and cortisol? I would assume we should be limiting things that unnaturally raise these hormones. You are a font of information. You should start your own blog. I would follow it.
And others as well of course. Check out this blog:
Is this guy serious? 500-1000 calories a day for an adult male? I checked out the site, quasi-bodybuilding bordering on total vanity. Whatever floats one boat I suppose. Just another good reason to hang out at 180 where there is a divergence of opinions, yes, but we all agree for the most part to DUCK FIETS!!
I am now up 7 pounds, 237 to 244, my morning basal temp (highest reading)is back below 97 (96.9). Interesting. Consistently pounding down 4500cals per day, always hungry though. Sleeping more soundly, rarely wake up in the middle of the night anymore. Ratio's are about 15-50-35 P-Co-F. My suprilliac skinfold reading up 1 mm from an average 10.5 to 11.5, so according to a formula I use, BF% up from 17.7 to 18.6 (I suspect I am slightly higher, but consistency of measurement method more important than outright accuracy), so it means my 7 pound weight gain is almost exactly 50/50 lean/fat.
Am loving this experiment and seeing where it takes me.
Collden said – I gained 50 pounds and had to go and buy new pants twice within my first seven weeks on the HED. After that the fat gain simply came to a screeching halt and the pants I bought then fit me just as well today after 6 months on the HED.
Holy crap! Are you serious? So you started the HED and now, six months later, you're FIFTY pounds heavier? And you've been at this new, higher weight for four months?
And this is a good thing?
I find the topic of psychology and weight/health very interesting. I can't speak for you, but I know in my case my thoughts and emotions have a big impact on the food choices that I make and my general health.
I know in the past when I changed my attitude toward food to see it as nourishing myself, I was able to start eating normal amounts (I had lost about 25-30 pounds and looked anorexic) again by improving my digestive problems. That's what I'm hoping to accomplish again, and hopefully improve other aspects of my health too. With lots of food :)
Lulu, I can't speak for Collden, but I know from my own weight gain, (which is about 50#–I was very, very under nourished!) that I feel better in every sense. While I gained a significant amount of weight, I feel better physically as well as emotionally. -Sarah
I am 65 pounds heavier now than when I started, the last 15 pounds have been almost entirely lean mass though, and my starting point was one of pretty extreme leanness maintained only by caloric restriction. I care less about a number than about looks though. After an initial period of bloat my looks have in fact only improved the further I've gone with the HED due to improved hormonal balance. In the past I've looked much worse than what I do now while weighing much less. My metabolism has now reached a point where I can't gain weight at all despite eating more than 4000 calories per day and no more exercise than two miles of walking daily. This makes me more or less content with where I am at the moment since there really only is one way to go from here. Down.
What I've gained so far is a complete disappearance of my lifelong sugar addiction, not reliant on caffeine or extended fasting to keep me awake throughout the day, the ability to eat how I please and not having to worry about weight gain, never feeling cold (even during the coldest Swedish winter in 20 years), my 2-year old Carpal tunnel syndrome is gone, my 3-year old chronic achilles tendon injury is in remission, constipation gone, carbohydrate-induced coma gone. My sleep has improved a lot in the past few months on the HED, I dream a lot more than I used to. I very rarely feel tired or have muscle fatigue anymore. I don't feel frail like I used to.
The excess weight is really only a temporary issue, the aforementioned benefits will however likely be permanent as long as I don't go down the road of chronic dieting and food deprivation again.
Collden, wow, that's an inspiring list. I too have noted an improvement in my dreams. I had two awesome, pure wish fullfillment dreams in the last week. I used to always have anxiety dreams or stress dreams. I think I'd had maybe two or three wishful dreams in my whole life prior to this last year.
Those things can increase cortisol and adrenaline levels, so can under-eating, over-exercise, lack of sleep, and anything else that stresses the body. Adrenaline and cortisol are not bad, they are necessary for life, and having levels too low is even worse than high. I have thought about starting a blog, but I don't know if I have time at the moment, maybe when I get a more consistent schedule and free time.
That is a bizarre blog. But, I have seen other similar sites. They all come from NLP marketing and PUA (pick up artist) community. It is a very strange sub culture, and usually their expertise is limited to their marketing ability. He probably just has that blog so that he can tell girls at the bar to check out his blog so that he can appear as an expert and raise his perceived status.
How tall are you and what is your current weight?
I'm 5'9 and weigh 195 pounds JT.
Wow, Anabelle, Gabriel's book was made for you. Let go, let go, let go of it sistah!
JT – or anyone else – do you know why protein powders are meant to be so bad for you? I used to love having a fruit/cream/coco.oil/protein powder smoothie for breakfast … but now I feel bad about the protein powder … but why is it such a bad food? Ray Peat seems to think it is bad – and yes I know I can try gelatine but it doesn't have that much protein in it and I'm a little nervous about how they make this product and what exactly is in it – I mean it is a highly processed product. I was using a low heat enzymes preserved (or so it says) rice protein powder … how terrible can that be? I don't know if anyone has read Majid Ali's books but he has people taking protein powder drinks several times a day. Has anyone found any studies proving that protein powder is bad? The truth is I'm not mad keen on protein foods and yet I have found my blood sugar problems are so much better having a little protein at every meal. Breakfast is hard though – I am a conventional girl and I can't do these 'last nights leftovers' type breakfasts. Eggs are great – but I like a change from eggs! Any thoughts anyone?
JT: You can always come guest post for me. ;)
My own experience with protein powders was very negative. I was most sensitive to the whey protein isolate powder used by my gym (I think it was EASports brand). I looked it up and it was hugely concentrated. I'm sure it was highly processed and heat treated. After one trip to the gym and a smoothie made with that stuff, my allergies went into over drive. My head filled up within a few hours. After that I seemed more sensitive any kind of processed protein like the soy protein I was using. Soy has its own set of reasons for being avoided.
I think if the rice protein is low heat treated and enzymes are preserved then hey maybe it's ok. I don't know. There's not very much protein in rice. Imagine how much of it they have to process to make a protein powder. Those kind of vast reductions like corn into sugar syrup usually turn out to be not so good.
I also react to low fat and fat free yogurts. The greek stuff gets me worse than anything. My face gets flush and I can feel the allergic reaction beginning. I read that with Greek yogurt they strain a ton of skim milk to make a small amount of yogurt. I don't know whether it's the heat or what they use in processing, all I know is that regular whole fat yogurt with no additives is fine.
Personally, I think it's hilarious that lots of body builders and weight lifters espouse the virtues of "eating clean" and then live off this stuff.
Milk, yogurt, and cheese are all good sources of morning protein. Why not add these into the a.m. routine instead of a smoothie?
Thanks. Yes, I too had to give up the Greek yog – I was addicted to the stuff – and like you say it is way too concentrated to be healthy in any quantity. Greek yogut (full fat – although it made me nauseous I loved the texture so much and fruit, etc. was my favourite breakfast, and then I gave it up for my protein powder smoothies … but now, if I give up protein powder I have run out of ideas for a fruity protein filled breakfast. If only protein wasn't such a necessary part of breakfast – I would be a happy girl!
You could also try raw eggs, they taste really good, especially with some milk, orange, and a few drops of vanilla extract.
Full fat cottage cheese with fruit is one of my favorites. I don't eat it as much any more. I kind of burned out on it when I was dieting like made. Ricotta cheese and farmer's cheese are also high in protein and go well with fruit. Farmer's cheese has the added benefit of being probiotic.
Oh yeah, Vida is right, do the Orange Julius thing: milk, OJ, ice, vanilla and raw egg. I use fresh squeezed OJ, so much better than the mall version, it's not even funny.
Dinosaur: I make oatmeal on many mornings, and if I don't feel like making eggs I'll stir in a few tablespoons of gelatin. It mixes in really easy with the oatmeal (think pour and stir), and no one can taste it. Not sure about the processing thing, but I know people who are super sensitive to MSG should steer clear of processed gelatin.
Ok, just googled "gelatin processing" and found this:
Not insanely creepy. Though the thing about boiling in aluminum vats made me wonder if the aluminum leeches into the gelatin?
Thanks for that. Had a quick look through, and will agree. Does seem very sub-culturish. This whole idea of a "perfect" body though just makes me roll my eyes. Men are getting that now as well. Thank God I am in my 40's ("youthful" 40's mind you), just does not affect me as much. And even when in my 20's and 30's I had women friends who said a man being in good shape was one thing, but trying for that perfection was an actual turnoff. But I digress.
The psychology aspect of fat loss is something I had not paid much attention to. I have just finished Gabriel's book and that to me was the most important thing I got out of it. The specific nutrition advice was so so (other than letting go and eating), but it was the emotional and mental side of things I had never really considered. Would recommend the book to anyone to complement what you are learning here and any other good nutritional/health blog.
Ditto for whey protein. Never agreed with me and I just was not a smoothie kind of person. I would just as soon drink milk. Powders and bars are not real food IMO. How can they substitute for real substance like a piece of rib roast, bell peppers sauteed in bacon grease, velvety mashed potatoes and a huge crunchy salad?
I think the yogurt/milk/fresh cheese idea from Jenny is great, especially if you're used to smoothies for breaky. Just add a scoop of ricotta and some yogurt or milk, along with a bit of fruit and any other real food thingies that you like and bob's your uncle.
We have a yogurt here called Libert? M?diterran?e and it is seriously the most creamy, obscenely delicious thing in the world. It's 10% fat. I just want to writhe around in it.
Protein powders are convenient. I get tired of eating so much meat, and I don't do well on cheese or eggs, so I use protein powder about once a day. The only protein powder that I know Peat is against is whey because of the excess tryptophan. I can't tolerate whey either, but I do well on hydrolyzed casein which is what I use. I use gelatin sometimes too, like Elizabeth said, it mixes in really well with oatmeal.
Thanks for the invite! I will let you know if I can ever come up with something interesting.
OMG I love the Liberte yogurt, especially the plum and walnut flavor. Reminds me of something you get in Europe.
When you were doing your 1500 cal "fat loss" period, where you doing the cycle diet at that point? What did your re-feeds look like?
I read that Scott was able to maintain 270 lbs on 1800 cals and stay in guest posing shape. That just blows my mind, his re-feeds must have been ungodly lol
@HawaiiGirl yeah, I hear ya. I know that grazing isn't the best idea according to Schwarzbein but I had a gastric bypass (ugh) and my stomach is fickle. I can only handle small portions at a time. These small portions don't always satisfy me and I have to eat again before next mealtime. As my stomach "warms up" over the course of the day I can tolerate a meal sized meal in the evening. My digestion is compromised to the point where I'm not absorbing all my nutrients. I could eat continuously throughout the day and might not get enough nourishment. It sucks. I thought weight loss surgery would make me thin and healthy. It didn't. …..@JennyTheNipper Yes!I did back in 2006. It saved my life. I've been sleeping with a CPAP every night since then. It's bliss!….also reading Jon Gabriel's book and blogging about it as I go. I'm starting to feel less crushed by life and less in need of the fat-armour but I'm not yet OK enough to let go of my size. Working on it :-) Thanks to all encouragers!!
What's wrong with tryptophan? I've been taking 5-HTP for anxiety, although I'll be stopping it soon. I always thought it was a good thing.
No, I wasn't on the cycle diet at that point. I just stayed at low cals with no refeeds for several months until I got lean enough. Then I went on vacation for a month and had no rebound, actually still kept losing fat without trying.
Read Ray Peat's articles for more info on the tryptophan and serotonin. His views on the subject are very interesting. He is truly 180 degrees from the conventional view.
I also took 5-HTP for acute anxiety a couple of years ago and it ended up making me sluggish and fatter. Peat's views are consistent with this.
You know what got rid of my anxiety in 10 minutes with no rebound?
Anyone that knocks it doesn't know what their talking about.
Yeah I already had googled Ray Peat and found a bunch of references to his articles which are on his site, one interview about thyroid and some defensive comments from WAPF.
I hear ya about emailing him though.
little bit of info i thought people here would appreciate. i live in cork in ireland and we have a BUTTER MUSEUM. how cool is that? butter capital of the world haha http://corkbutter.museum/index.php
@ Rocket: do you have any good resources for EFT and any details on getting it started?
JT, That is pretty impressive that you had no rebound. I guess it's true what Abel says "calories do not measure metabolism"
Taffy, that is cool :)
JT what do you think the keys were with you in NOT having rebound, as I have gotten real lean twice and both times had strong rebound.
I just picked up "The Writing Diet- Write yourself Right Sized" by Julia Cameron this past weekend. She contends that unblocking your creativity by "guided writing" you can began to nuture yourself and eliminate negativity. She claims to have seen her students drop weight and become healthier in her writing classes by using her methods to tap into their creative consciousness. More woo-woo stuff if you are interested.
She and I part company on HOW to eat however, she is a DIET person and espouses artifical sweeteners and deprivation so I wouldn't even bother reading much of that bs. But I do find some of the information about writing fascinating. You bloggers may be inspired!
If you look for a guy named David Childerley on youtube, he's a fantastic resource for EFT. He also has a website that costs a bit of money (a nominal fee) for membership with hundreds of videos on a zillion different topics.
I've also found EFT quite helpful. I'm working on a phobia with EFT and already seeing improvement.
Taffy: Okay, I'll have to make that butter museum a stop on my dream Ireland trip one day. ;)
Susan: As a writer, the title of that book is appealing to me. The reviews look interesting (many of them seem to agree about the authors unhealthy relationship with food). I'm sure it would be worth a read just to see what it's all about.
"but trying for that perfection was an actual turnoff."
That's pretty much always been my view. Never found the super muscle-bound, ultra lean thing appealing at all no matter how he got there. And if he's all into his looks and looking perfect it's just comical, sorry.
I thought the liberte was Greek style yogurt. Or is it just cream on top. Cultural Revolution by Kalona Organics has no additives and is cream on top. It is bombass.
Lisa, glad to hear you are being treated for sleep apnea. Hope Gabriel's book helps you get to a place where you are at peace with yourself.
The way I learned about EFT was by downloading the original Gary Craig stuff via torrents. I've heard that he retired recently and as the inventor, just put EFT in the public domain so If you're opposed to downloading, in this case there's no issue.
The EFT course:http://www.kickasstorrents.com/the-eft-course-t488111.html
Also as an intro, there's demonstrations of a slightly different version here:http://www.tapping.com/
Taffy: Oh man, I love Irish butter. When I lived there (mid nineties) they used to give butter to people on the dole. Do they still do that? All my housemates got free butter. I think I probably would have starved even worse than I did if it wouldn't have been for that butter. To this day my idea of the perfect snack: brownbrad with butter. Yum!
I haven't been checking my temps upon waking, but is it possible to have a low body temperature and feel hot a lot? I know I've always been more 'hot natured', (like I barely wear long sleeves in winter) but generally my body temps are below 98 degrees, or they were when I was checking it everyday.
All I did was mop the kitchen floor and I'm burning up. Generally if I'm moving at all, I'm hot. And sometimes remain hot when I'm resting.
How safe is it to follow your appetite? I have dieted on restricted calorie-intake for a long time (eg, I am 6 feet tall, 175 lb, and would go for a week eating 900 calories a day).
Now I am trying not to count calories and just eat nutritious food, no desserts or sweets or pasta or white bread, but lots of cream and cheese and meat and veggies … I find that I want to eat a LOT. Is it okay to eat as much as I want? I do not seem to be gaining weight, but it still seems very strange. It is opposite to everything I have thought about weight-loss.
(And a heck of a lot more pleasant! It is so wonderful not to feel hungry and deprived and miserable all the time! If this works I am going to tell everyone I know!!)
Lisa, I'm with you on the snacking. I haven't had weight loss surgery, but I've spent a lifetime ignoring my hunger and fullness signals and I feel like this whole breakfast/lunch/dinner thing, although it might work for some, is not a one-size-fits-all approach.
For example, sometimes I'm full before I finish my meal but if I'm not 'allowed' to snack later, I feel compelled to force myself to finish it all, in the fear that I might otherwise get hungry later. And forcing food, I feel, is a step AWAY from gaining that important skill of being able to listen to and obey your body's signals.
If I'm full, I should stop eating. If I'm hungry, I should eat something. Whether it's mealtime or not! That's what thin people do.
JT if temp isn't everything, then what means do you measure metabolism. My temp is stuck at 69.9 up from sub 96. Been doing head for 2+ months, stopped gaining weight on 4000+ daily diet. My question to you or anyone, how do you know when to start to try and loose some bodyfat? I don't have any health or digestion issues. Thanks in advance.
Anonymous, Peat says that, in order to avoid the problem of high cortisol or adrenaline, or electric blankets, one can measure temperature (and pulse rate, 80 being optimal) before and after breakfast. If stress is keeping your temps up, he says, then it is likely they'll decrease after eating, instead of increasing which would be the normal. Even so, JT advises is as good as it gets, I think; the best indicative if how you're feeling.
Annabelle: I feel the same way about meals/snacks. Theoretically I agree with the 3 meals/day concept, and I've used it with success at some points. But overall I really feel that we should just listen to our bodies. Like you said, I hate the isea of stuffing myself way past the level of comfort just to make it four hours without eating, and on the flip side of the coin I always hated eating several small meals when I felt like my body needed more. I've been working on just eating as much as my body is requesting at a given moment. Sometimes that's 400 calories in one sitting and sometimes it's 900. I'll tell you one thing, it's impossible for me to eat 900 calories in one meal if my body doesn't want it, but effortless at other times.
Elizabeth & Annabelle – that is so true! It is really refreshing to hear it. I thought that I was the only one to eat like that. Everyone else seems to have three huge meals and not want anything else!
Thanks EL 66K. I meant HED not head in my post, but I typed it how I say it!
This is all mind boggling. I am hot natured and stressed (as of late) person, if I am moving I am hot, if I eat I am hot, if its cold outside I am comfortable, but I have a low basal temp. My wife is the opposite, she is always cold and relaxed and her basal temp is 98+…she is always cold and comments she gets even colder after meals.
I think the part that is bad about snacking is if you're using it as a reason to eat mindlessly. I try not to start cramming food at the slightest feeling of non-fullness in my stomach. Or because I'm bored or avoiding something… all reasons I used to have for eating!
Now, I try to eat to fullness every time I eat – unless I have a meal planned and I'm just tiding myself over in order to not get face-punchingly hungry. Yes, I get cranky when I'm hungry! Plus, I can go from completely uninterested in food to ravenous in t-minus 30 seconds. My boyfriend always jokes that if I say the words "I'm hungry", it's already too late.
I'm not into forcing myself to eat small meals, either. Some days I feel great with breaky, lunch and dinner and some days I eat a small breakfast, a mid-morning snack, a normal-ish lunch and a humongous dinner. Or some other combo. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that, if that's what my body is asking for.
EL66K a pulse of 80 is optimal??? that seems real high to me, my pulse at rest is 56.
Jedi, are you an athlete or do any sports? That pulse rate is pretty low!
Annabelle: You and I sound like we're on the same page. I am the same way with hunger. I hear so many people say, "What's so scary about being hungry?" I am! I assume it has to do with blood sugar levels, but I am not a nice version of myself when I'm hungry. Like you said, Annabelle, if I'm saying I'm hungry it's already too late! I think listening to my appetite is so far one of the best things I've done. I'm definitely not gaining anymore weight at this point (whew!), so I figure what harm is there in actually paying attention to what my body is saying?
It was always around 60 Riles and I have always been active, but I took up marathon running five years ago and it dropped to 53, gave up running 18 months ago and it has slowly increased to 56.
I have a very different response to hunger, it doesn't bother me one bit, this is also why Intermittent fasting was not hard at all for me. I HATE feeling stuffed, on the other hand.
I also get cranky when I'm tired and something is standing in between me and my bed. The rest of the time, I'm an absolute teddy bear!
The danger, of course, in over-feeding is that your set point will rise to match the new, higher caloric intake. The evolutionary theory behind this fear is that we are inclined to store body fat WHEN EXCESS CALORIES ARE AVAILABLE. How does your body know when excess calories are available? How does it know that it is a good time to stock up on body fat? It knows because it detects large amount of calories coming in and very little effort expended to procure them. 'Aha, I'm a in a calorie dense environment right now – I'd better take advantage of it and stock up on body fat before it goes away' – and up goes the appetite to meet the higher intake of calories. That's the fear anyway.
Hm that is a scary thought. But so how are you ever able to eat normally? It seems that there are so many risks on all sides that the true balance can never be found. Or am I being pessimistic?
"Aha, I'm a in a calorie dense environment right now – I'd better take advantage of it and stock up on body fat before it goes away"
But if we are constantly in abundance the body would learn that it doesn't need to store calories because there is no fear of famine. But this would depend on the person and how long they had deprived themselves along with other factors.
Jedi, your pulse makes sense to me now. It will probably gradually increase with time. I am also the same as you regarding hunger. After I tried intermittent fasting for a while, I now have the ability to go long periods of time without food. This is a big change as I used to get headaches and become hypoglycemic if I didn't eat something.
I remember the last time I had a headache and it was 3 years ago when I stopped using caffeine. I haven't had another one since.
As I think about my situation and what has brought me to where I am, I'm starting to realize that worrying about any of this stuff is what makes people fat and unhealthy to begin with. Spending hours of my day researching and pouring over books and having conniption fits, trying to find the ultimate thing to "fight off" obesity has been a bigger factor in the way I look and feel than anything I've ever put in my mouth. This point has really been hammered home for me in the last few weeks. I've had several lightbulb moments, for sure. My God – I've dedicated more hours toward worrying about my health than most people do toward their full-time jobs.
You don't see healthy people who live to 100 worrying about fat storage and famine times and other imaginary demons. In fact, they all make a point of living super-happy chilled-out lives. I think that's the one common factor in all people who live long healthy lives. Not caloric restriction or soy, or no soy, or saturated fat or omega 3 or refined foods or otherwise.
I'm not saying that you shouldn't study health, if it brings you joy to do so, and I'm not saying that you should go out of your way to eat crap, but I'm also coming to realize that health is one of those things that you can't obtain through action. You can only obtain it through thought and belief. And if you think that eating to appetite is going to make you fat, then – I assure you – it will.
"But if we are constantly in abundance the body would learn that it doesn't need to store calories because there is no fear of famine. "
Exactly. I think what many people get wrong is that they think our hunter/gatherer ancestors were living in an environment where food was scarce. If anything, we seem to be adapted to a tropical climate, where food is abundant. It is very likely to assume that our hunter/gatherer ancestors where living in a food-abundant environment (Stephan Guyenet talks about that in his podcast interview about body fat regulation). So why would humans even develop such a "reflex" that Taylor mentioned?
I think many people make the mistake by thinking of the body as a greedy bastard that turns every single excess calorie into fat. Especially when factoring in the recent discovery of the role of leptin, this seems like a big misconcecption.
Apart from that, short-term overfeeding does not seem to raise the body weight setpoint (I am referring to the prisoner study) so why should long term overfeeding? RRARF is not supposed to be a life sentence and even if overfeeding would raise the body weight setpoint than the opposite would happen when getting off RRARF or also when dieting (restricting calories). As most of us now, it really is not that simple.
Yeah, I did IF for 8 months (fast 5). The cranky got better on some days, but some days were a nightmare and I honestly can't believe my boyfriend stayed with me through that period!! Bless his heart. Plus, I had a huge weight rebound right after I gave up on it, which tells me that it did not help my metabolism. That might just be me, though. I've heard many people say it was a gift from above.
And even after all that, I still get cranky when I'm hungry! LOL I'm special like that. :D
Annabelle I found IF easy BUT like you, I am not sure it helped my metabolism in any way. I also agree with you that our mindset/subconscious thoughts re health/weight are VERY key in this process and I do think HED helps many create a healthier relationship with food ;)
Thanks Rocket, cop'd that torrent will look into it…….
I have been wondering about fat gain around the buttocks, any ideas why this is the main place people on HED seem to be gaining fat? Since going off Paleo pretty much all my initial fat gain came on butt and thighs with a bit on the belly….. Is this cortisol related or a sign of insulin sensitivity?
Chris, with insulin sensitivity you mean low/poor insulin sensitivity, don't you?
Well whatever, I have experienced the same and am glad that I'm not a freak of nature. However, I think both cortisol and insulin resistance usually show up in the belly. So that's unlikely to be the case. I know that storing fat in the thighs/butt can be a sign of too much estrogen (which would make sense, as women are storing most of their fat there), but I'm not really sure whether this is a good explanation.
Annabelle, good points about not obsessing over diet. I'm definitely one that likes to be controlling with food, although that's backed off somewhat.
The problem is, no matter how you slice it, the average American is not getting any healthier. Once you realize how unnatural our diseases are and you look at how health care is going, it feels like diet is one way to protect yourself.
I also take interest in health issues just because it's such an important topic. I like to read about the problems the world faces but I do so to have a deeper understanding. I don't try to drown in information, which is easy to do. Nutrition definitely counts as a world problem and it's integrated with many others. I can't believe we've thrown away the wisdom of so many traditional cultures.
I understand where you're coming from – this is the exact place I was coming from for years. But if you believe in the law of attraction (which I do!), having a "deeper understanding" of problems that the world faces will only bring more problems for the world to face. Not that that is a bad thing – we grow from our challenges. But I think we have enough challenges on our plate, right now, without zooming in on them and magnifying them.
The reasons why Americans (and the rest of us) are getting less healthy could just as easily be attributed to the fact that never have we, as a planet, been so inundated with health information and been so aware of the "dangers" that could possibly show up in our lives. If you turn on a television set or a computer, you're instantly faced with some new study or a fear-inducing news reel about obesity, featuring footage of fat people's bodies walking around with their faces blurred out. LOL My brother and I laugh about this all the time. The headless fat people with cameras zoomed in on their bums and big bulbous guts. I think they must have hours of that stock footage in every news station in the western world. I wonder who's in charge of going out and taping all those fat people without their noticing… And can you imaging recognizing your own ass in one of those things? OMG LOL. I would die.
Annabelle, I'm not such a big fan of the law attraction, but I like what you said about health obsession. I think after a certain point, more knowledge can be counter-productive. I can get caught up in reading all the research about so and so (which I love to do) but it usually doesn't translate into sustainable changes in my diet, which is often determined by emotions and food craving. I think a lot more emphasis needs to be put on this "woo-woo" stuff than currently is.
I tried to buy salad dressing last weekend. I had company coming for the weekend and thought I didn't have time to make some and maybe just wanting to cut myself a break too. I made 4 trips to the salad dressings, reading labels, rejecting on the basis of PUFA, HFCS, whatever. I kept telling myself it's a lousy tablespoon of dressing, get over it! But I couldn't. Sometimes I don't know how my poor husband puts up with me either, especially the 2 years of LC, ZLC, IF. AT least on HED he gets better meals!
I think our perspectives differ somewhat. Civilization as a whole definitely faces a lot of major problems. Read Collapse or Limits To Growth. But I don't want to be a curmudgeon. I want to apply knowledge in useful ways.
Degenerative diseases are not normal to a population (in a traditional culture that is). A lot of statistics on this can be misleading. If we look only at average lifespan for example, we have to correct for things like death due to infectious disease or childbirth when comparing to modern cultures (with modern healthcare). When looking at what's normal for the human organism, we should look only at traditional cultures.
I guess it seems pretty clear to me that a lot of the health problems we face are not just "getting old". It's also a huge drain on our society. There are plenty of researchers getting paid plenty of money to study obesity and other health issues but (and I'll assume I'm not alone here when I say this), I find their advice uninspiring. That's why I like Matt Stone. I think he has the right attitude and ambition (and following) to get a much bigger picture of the problem of health and obesity.
Personally, I don't really have a problem with too much information. I'm an ISTJ, so it fits my personality type. But I like to soak it all up, distill it, and see if I can come up with a holistic view. People like Matt or myself (or others here) may take in a lot of details, but there's a lot of gears turning to fit them all together into a complete picture.
@ Aaron: I understand what you're saying. I'm all for traditional. I'm also all for 180 and eating till your full and loving food and not going by mainstream health info and all that other great stuff. :) Matt has definitely done a service. Taking away people's fear of eating is an enormous boon. And that just great for those of us on the lookout for enormous boons.
But let's just say, I've spent years of my life – YEARS! – studying nutrition in a very very in-depth manner, picking things apart and putting them back together… and I'm no healthier for it. I've actually had nightmares about eating chocolate fudge sundaes where I woke up in a cold sweat. LOL OK, seriously, I'm laughing out loud at myself, right now at how ridiculous that is. But it's true! I've sent myself on more wild goose chases than I care to think about. I've wasted a lot of time worrying and obsessing when I could have just been, oh I dunno… living? Enjoying myself?
I guess my point is – don't stress. Make feeling good your first priority. That is the most essential ingredient in good health. :)
There are multiple factors that went in to me not rebounding. The type of training I was doing and the diet I was on did not slow down my metabolism even though I had a very large calorie deficit. I also was doing a lot of yoga and Ayurvedic stuff as well. I also wasn't eating any junk either.
Temperature is one variable and who knows how accurate your thermometer is. The most important measure is how you feel and function. If your temperatures are consistently that low then you need to get your thyroid and other hormones checked. You may have some metabolic damage that needs treatment. Matt believes overfeeding will cure all of this, but I am not so sure. Some people may need HRT.
One thing I have seen many times in the past, and is very obvious from the above comments is that there is a HUGE difference in the way men and women in general relate to food and diet. Women have many more emotional ties to food than men do. This probably why guys can tolerate hunger better as well. This is not a bad thing for women though, probably has a survival advantage for our species in nature if the woman who has to feed the children has these strong emotional ties to food.
Yeah, JT you can be sure that the women would be locking your ass out of the cave, if we started to run out of food. We are THAT emotional about it.
Kidding.I'm sure we'd share with our caveman brothers. But only if they agreed to kill all the spiders in the cave, first.
"My boyfriend always jokes that if I say the words "I'm hungry", it's already too late."
Ha Lolz, and so true.
Riles, Jedi has a low resting pulse because he's er, um, a Jedi.
Matt, where the fuck are you man? We are loosing focus here. I don't even know why I started typing this post.
JT: I would tend to agree that women may be more explicitly emotional about food issues, but I have met plenty of guys who overeat, binge, crave certain foods, are obsessed with their weight, etc. I also think guys are less in touch with their emotions in general, and less likely to discuss certain issues openly.
That is probably pretty true. I saw a documentary on a hunter gatherer tribe, and the women didn't want to let the men back if they had an unsuccessful hunting trip.
There are guys who have emotional issues with food too, but it is not near as common as it is with women. The only guys I have known with these issues also struggled with being too fat.
So who do I get to thank for my issues ;)
I agree about having a relaxed attitude about food. It's something I did not use to have. It's a balance I've had to learn. I'm getting less pulled around as I continue reading information. Just letting it soak in.
I was very pulled into low carb based on the information I had been reading. I was borderline underweight and my parents felt I looked anorexic (my mom actually mentioned that again yesterday). I did WT in some futile attempt to add pounds. The thing was, I figured the average American wasn't representative of how we're supposed to be, so maybe the weight was normal. Guess what put the pounds back on though? Eating normally (which was HED with raging appetite for a few weeks). Yeah, there's a small gut, but so what? I was freaking about it at first and almost bailed back to low-carb. But thinking like that isn't productive. So at the same time I'm learning to temper my judgment at other people's body shapes.
An interesting thing that helped with that the other day was jogging around lake Calhoun (very populated place in Mpls in summer). There were several guys jogging with shirts off, all obviously for show. It was off-putting. It makes me want to add a few more pounds, then find some nice patch of grass, take my shirt off, and soak up some sun.
w00t, 201st post! You have to click to the next page to view mine!
Not so long ago it really did appear as though Matt Stone and HED were actively being shut out and shouted down within the community and I think most of that fervour came from the readership rather than the bloggers themselves. I think those that made the effort to find out what HED actually is rather than taking it for the straw man it was described as on a few comment boards got it immediately. I think that deliberate misrepresentation on the comment boards did more to fuel all the anxiety over HED and Matt in the blogosphere than anything else.
Fast forward to now and something very interesting is happening across the 'mainstream' paleo blogs; dairy is in, white rice is in, potatoes are in, insulin is no longer evil and and carbs don't necessarily cause insulin resistance. Richard Nikoley's recent posts on potatoes really make question why he attacked Matt and HED so vociferously. There really is less and less grounds for disagreement.
Dare I say it, one day we may even see wheat given a fair trial.
About pulse rate, Peat said this: "Healthy and intelligent groups of people have been found to have an average resting pulse rate of 85/minute, while less healthy groups average close to 70/minute." You be the judge.
@ madMUHHH I do indeed mean poor insulin sensitivity…. I agree that it is probably an issue with estrogen, it would make sense as I have always tended to store fat around my but/thighs and also on my chest which does seem like an estrogen problem.
BTW how is your progress coming along with HED? My fat gain seems to have somewhat stalled but so has my body temps increase although it fluctuates day to day. I am still hovering around 97.0 and I started near 96…..
I just have to say, I'm feeling really good. I started this journey at 107 pounds, the epitome of skinny-fat and frail… and I've gained 30 pounds since August (most of it being muscle actually), but I feel so strong and so revitalized. Most days I just feel like beating my chest and exclaiming "I am woman!" (I wouldn't dare do that around anyone, but that's just an illustration of how amazing I feel being fed for the first time in such a long time) I can't believe how incredible it feels to not be a slave to food anymore, or feel like I should look like those waif things pounding the treadmill and eating rice cakes, and how wonderful it feels to eat a normal meal and be completely at peace with everything about it. All I can say is "Thank you Matt Stone", and everyone else here on this blog for giving me back my sanity.
Hi, there, everybody,
I (female, 50, based in North Germany – hi MadMUUH) have just started IF (? la Lean Gains/Warrior Diet)and would be interested to find out why some of the other ladies here didn't do well on it (above, in the comments). I find that just cutting breakfast does give me "an edge" which, on different days, I could interpret as being cranky(edgy!) or being energetic. So this "dealing with hunger" thing could be more of a psychological deal than a physiological one. I can imagine that if my life is going smoothly, the mild hunger pains will be no problem and I will reap the benefits from the heightened alertness, but on days where circumstances conspire to freak me out (kids, work, relationships -life in general), it will be a lot tougher to keep to the mini-fast. What are your ideas?
PS I am also a big fan of Ray Peat and consider reading and re-reading his essays almost a kind of mental discipline – helps if you have a glass of OJ beforehand;-)
I'm really starting to lean toward a Seth Roberts/David Kessler, addiction like explanation for the obesity epidemic. Why? Well, for example, when I go to a restaurant, there are several lower calorie/healthier options on the menu that would do just fine to satisfy my hunger, but I literally cannot bring myself to order them and forgo the pleasure of eating something really delicious. This cannot be explained metabolically. The less palatable food would do just fine to sate my appetite and provide me with the nutrients that I need. Therefore the answer cannot be metabolic. It can't be a disregulated hunger mechanism. Its an addiction to hyperpalatable food. The food we have available to us is just TOO good. Fast food is perfectly full of all the fat, sugar, salt and umami that pushes all of our food-pleasure buttons all at once and creates a pleasure that ordinary food just can't match. I get addicted. I know some people are going to hate me for saying this but I think solving a weight problem may just be as simple as getting used to eating food that doesn't taste so damn good. It really may be that simple. I've given this alot of thought. I'm not totally convinced of this, but I'm pretty close. Food that tastes TOO good is addictive. I'm not saying to eat stuff you find nasty – but maybe stuff you find just a tad bit bland.
Taylor you are somewhat correct, while bland food is not very satisfying, I find flavorful food to do just the opposite. I tends to fill me up and satisfy for longer. This is why we crave and use spices and salts in our food, and have done for a long long time
Normal resting heart rate is 60-100 bpm
Holy shit! So many great comments! Guess I should write another silly comment as well.
"Matt, where the fuck are you man? We are loosing focus here. I don't even know why I started typing this post."
There is a thing that people call vacation. I heard that Matt is on one of those mysterious things. (He wrote in his newsletter that he'll be back a week starting this tuesday)
"Fast forward to now and something very interesting is happening across the 'mainstream' paleo blogs; dairy is in, white rice is in, potatoes are in, insulin is no longer evil and and carbs don't necessarily cause insulin resistance. Richard Nikoley's recent posts on potatoes really make question why he attacked Matt and HED so vociferously. There really is less and less grounds for disagreement."
I couldn't agree any more and have noticed this as well. I don't know if I'm imagining it, but so many stuff coming from the paleosphere right now seems to be heavily influenced by Matt. Even some of the PaNu stuff.
Actually, I'm progressing quite fine at the moment. After a very short period of mild paranoia (don't wanna go into detail here, I was just being stupid) my temps now seem to be consitently hovering around 97.5. I might have gained some more, but I dunno and I probably could control the weight gain more easily if I could down the fat just a little more, but I feel comfortable that way. I already planned seriously getting back into exercising for one or two months but I'm starting to feel like I really should do that and take some advantage of caloric excess.
Similar experience here. My modd energy levels still fluctuate more than I'd like but recently I've been in a great mood most of the time. Beats the heck out of eating low-carb and pretending to feel great even though that obiously wasn't the case for me.
"I find that just cutting breakfast does give me "an edge" which, on different days, I could interpret as being cranky(edgy!) or being energetic"
Hi! The way you describe it, I actually would be a little wary of keeping up those fasting periods. To me, it sounds a bit like your energy and occasional crankiness could be a sign of increased adrenaline. I don't know if that's the smartest thing to do to your adrenals. But then again, I'm wary of everything that seems to stress the adrenals the slightest bit, that's because of my personal history.
I agree with Riles here and wanted to say something else. While it may be true that the flavour overload we encounter in our industrialized world may be bad, I really don't think this can be applied to real food. Riles already mentioned spices which often have healing properties and I think that it is very likely to assume that the better "real foods" taste, the more nutrients they have. Veggies/fruits with a high Brix-score are supposed to taste much much better and also have way more vitamins/minerals than conventional veggies/fruits.
And it's "away" a week and not "back" a week. Silly me.
Waterwitch: madMUHHH said it right. IF triggers the release of cortisol and adrenaline (the typical famine response). I did absolutely terrible on IF, probably because my adrenals were already fatigued and couldn't keep up with the stress. Someone with healthier adrenals may be able to handle it more, but that doesn't make the release of excess cortisol healthy. I don't think IF is inherently terrible for health, but I do think anyone attempting it should be careful and understand what's going on with their body.
oily meals are very bad for your health and it makes the bad effect on your health and you need to eat vegetables.
Sanjay- Who said we don't eat vegetables? You need the oil to utilize the nutrients from the vegetables… Plus, different oils have different impacts on health. Doesn't sound like you're very familiar with the information provided on this blog…
heart rate range for average adults run 60-100 beats per minute
Anyone seen these?
It's all relevant, but the discussion about yo-yo dieters particularly at the end of part 3 is a bit concerning, ha ha. Thoughts?
Just found this blog about a week ago. My husband has accused me of being a junkie. I'm thinking of buying the ebooks.
Right now I have a few questions…well actually a lot of questions, but I'll stick with the top few.
1. My basal temp has been 97.8 for 3 consecutive days post ovulation. I think I read somewhere on here a range that accounts for the thermal shift, but can't seem to find it now. Anyone have this info?
2. Can you have a healthy basal temp or close to healthy temp and still have symptoms of low metabolism? I know it can be high b'c of adrenals in overdrive, but how do you know the difference?
3. Anyone on here with kids who may have a lowered metabolism? My kids are like me…skinny fat, low tone, with symptoms such as allergies (one with significant histamine response to many things) attention issues, learning disability (related to metabolism?), sensory issues, digestive issues. They have been GF/CF for some time, but we've relaxed some lately and have added raw dairy back. Any comments/recommendations on this?
Thanks for all the great info!
Perhaps the fact that Matt's site doesn't have a forum has saved it from the rest of us? I was checking out the paleo oriented blogs on my reading list and came across a post by a relative paleo newby. She's full of enthusiasm for Paleo; it all makes intuitive sense, seems to be on good scientific grounds etc. After several days of clean eating she cheats a little, a big bowl of cinnamon toast crunch followed up with some other frankenfood I can't remember. In any case, she didn't feel like crap, the cheat meals didn't screw her digestion or send her blood sugar and mood soaring out of control. To her credit she actually stops and asks a very good question, words to the effect of, I thought this crap was supposed to be terrible aren't grains supposed to make me violently ill?
The response from the other readers was very revealing and can be summarised, quite fairly as, you haven't been paleo long enough, stick with it a few months, then eat some carbs/grain and see how terrible you feel. This was followed with testimonial after testimonial of how much worse the reader's tolerance for carbs/grain/frankenfood had become after sticking with Paleo for 'long enough'.
Jump in at any time! Major cognitive dissonance going on here, and I was probably suffering under the same self-delusion just a few months ago. Paleo purists are wearing their food intolerances as badges of honour.
Anyway, this goes right to the core of HED, nothing I can say that hasn't already been said.
I'm looking for input on some Milk diet issues that I am having. Week 1 post up here:
@ Wilkinator: It cracks me up how brainwashed these Paleo suckers are. It really seems to be that Paleo will turn out to be what Vegan/Vegetarian eating once was as it looks to be growing in popularity. Everywhere I look now starch is being demonised. Will be interesting to see how things develop.
I miss Matt Stone :/
so goes my story Wilkinlator, till i came to my senses last year…. I love all the paleo blogs now, and the commenters, who all dogged on matt, are now taking articles and diet philosophies from him. Let me see here…
Panu… with the omega article where he even mentions matts name in it.
Richard N. at Freetheanimal… Is now a tater lover… because i am sure he is consulting with martin B. at leangains… and i am sure Martin set him straight on Carbs now.
Matt Metzgar… put up a article on not restricting calories, how it slows down metabolism and thyroid function… and he changed his view on carbs also…
hmmmmmmmmm….. what nutty paleoheads… at least there finally learning… Matt Metzgar finally just quit using canola oil for gods sake…
I miss Matt Stone, too! Matt, where are you? I'm going through withdrawals and am going to start stalking you soon (ok, don't panic – just kidding on the stalking part).
I (female, 50, based in North Germany – hi MadMUUH) have just started IF (? la Lean Gains/Warrior Diet)and would be interested to find out why some of the other ladies here didn't do well on it (above, in the comments
I can't speak for the ladies on this list, but in my experience with the Warrior Diet a few years back (and we had a HUGE thread on a yahoo group I belong to on the subject), most of the women simply didn't eat enough to make it work. To do it the way Ori suggests cuts against the grain of the way most women eat compared to most men. Understandable once you realize that the Warrior Diet is based on the Roman warrior tradition.
The WD forever removed any cognitive dissonance I may have had about the "fattening" effects of carbs per se (I don't think I had any but if I did they were removed with the WD) because I ate a huge amount of food which included a huge amount of carbs at the feast meal. I mean insane amounts of food.
Result? Though the WD is designed to avoid any cortisol and adrenaline release issues during the day by allowing for "undereating", I wasn't even remotely hungry before my feast meal. My energy levels went through the roof and I am normally a high energy person. I got leaner.
I had to give it up for personal reasons but none of that had to do with health.
I still basically eat one big meal a day, though I haven't consciously tried to work out such a plan, it is just the way things have turned out. And I can't even come close to eating the amounts of food I did back then in one sitting, nor do I want to do so. :-)
I think you're right. I find it difficult to eat huge amounts in the evening and during the day I feel hungry. I think the "feeling hungry" issue has a lot to do with my present workload (or the lack of it). I do a lot of project work at home on the computer and I am currently between projects. That means I have a lot of time on my hands, relatively speaking. When I have deadlines looming, it seems easier to forget about food and concentrate on work.
You say that there is a danger of adrenal fatigue with the WD.
Maybe so – I will keep an eye on that factor.
Does anyone know what Peat thinks about fasting? In one of his essays he talks about how fasting promotes longevity but I'm not sure of his stance on IF.
@ Waterwitch: I find it quite natural to eat the biggest meal of the day at night. I have always had success eating lighter throughout the day then having a bigger dinner.
My only concern with fasting throughout the day is stress on the adrenals (and you will feel it when it happens) As soon as someone unhealthy or with overtaxed adrenals starts trying IF they will experience all kinds of high cortisol/adrenaline symptoms. (intense hunger, brain fog, light headed, anxiety, cold hands and feet)
If you are healthy and have good adrenal function I cannot see why IF once a week would be a bad thing and realistically probably has a load of benefits. When healing though steer clear of it.
"Result? Though the WD is designed to avoid any cortisol and adrenaline release issues during the day by allowing for "undereating", I wasn't even remotely hungry before my feast meal. My energy levels went through the roof and I am normally a high energy person. I got leaner."
Hmm. I always flirted with the idea of the warrior diet and the concept seems very appealing to me.
Just as making dinner the biggest meal of the day intuitively feels right to me.
So do you think that as long one is making sure to eat enough food in the evening and manages to avoid the adrenaline/cortisol release by eating very lightly throughout the day the waarioir diet would be a safe, perhaps even beneficial, thing to do?
Matt(and anyone else that can help),
Some questions for you-
1-I am about 15days into overfeed. Today, I broke 97.8; just on rt side. Lt side can't seem to get with the program. It seems to always be 1full * lower. Anyway should I continue overfeed to 30 days or taper off now.
2-I have been drinking yerba mate for over 2 yrs. I stopped because I couldn't decide if it was herbal enough. It has a stimulant in ti called matteine(sp) which is supposed to be caffeine-like. Is this ok to drink again. I can't decide if I miss the taste or if I am going through with withdrawls.
Best to all-
Michael: I'm totally smacking myself in the head right now. The only time I tried IF for a few weeks was during my low-carb experiment last year. So my results could easily be tainted by the fact that I was eating less than about 100 g of carbs per day during that period. I might do better on an IF plan if I didn't shun natural carbs. Might be something to experiment with in the future sometime.
"The WD forever removed any cognitive dissonance I may have had about the "fattening" effects of carbs per se"
I agree – it's great not to obsess about carbs. Ori has some good ideas about carb/protein cyling too. What I like is that he is pretty flexible (except in regard to highly processed and estrogenic food, and I think he's right there)And btw – I love your blog:-)
When I'm hungry in the mornings I eat a slice of pineapple or have some coffee with cream or coconut oil. It usually tides me over, even if it's just until 11 clock. Some days (eg Sundays)I eat normally, other days I try to eat ? la Fast Five – ie all my major meals within a five hour window (whether that be in the afternoon or the evenings.) I am still trying to find the ideal approach, but I think, being a woman, my hormones wreak havoc with my ideals;-)
I find doing IF motivates me to do a bit more exerise (nothing excessive – just a bit more cycling, and Wii Fitness!)and I make sure I have my carbs as a reward.
@ Nancy: I have drunk Yerba Mate in the past and love the stuff. It seems to have a very different effect from coffee. I can drink Mate or Black tea and feel fine, give me too much coffee and I start feeling edgy, anxious etc….
I see no trouble drinking Mate while HED, I still drink black tea most days and it seems to be fine. Also I know that Mate is a pretty potent thermogenic it heats me up like a furnace.
Michael, you bring up a good point about meal frequency. Most primitive cultures consumed 1-2 light meals during the day while consuming a much larger meal at the end of the day. I know that the Kitavans ate this way(light breakfast/large supper). I think that it is just as important to look at how the primitives ate as it is what they ate.
I agree. It makes sense for HG groups to snack during the day on fresh food and cook dense nutrients in the evening, in the dark, around a fire, and shoot the breeze.
The relaxing, convivial atmosphere is probably also a factor that plays a role in good digestion.
Here is my experience on WD/IF. I did WD for almost a year, lost weight/bodyfat until I was just over 10% bodyfat…then I started gaining fat, cold all the time, etc., etc., so I quit it. I gave it up for a year or so and then dove back in with IF/Fast-5 (or Fast 3 or Fast 2 or whatever it ended up being for me). This was while I was working on my MBA, wife was pregnant w/ 2nd kid, sleeping less than an hour many nights, working out as often as was possible, etc. Lost weight and then, when I was just over 10% bf, I started gaining fat, was extremely cold all the time, cold not stay awake through an entire day even with a full night sleep and lots of caffeine. I was getting fatter eating 1500 calories a day. The second round of IF (along with the other stressors) really smoked my adrenals and thyroid. In my opinion, it all boils down to Hans Selye and stress theory. Rub your hands together once, and nothing happens. Rub your hands together for a short period of time every day, your body compensates by developing callouses. Rub your hands together all day long and your body can't compensate, so the skin tissue breaks down and you end up with blisters and sores. If you want to do IF once a week or for short periods, that shouldn't be a problem. If you have health issues, lot's of stress, don't sleep much…don't add another stressor to your body.
As far as Ray Peat goes, I emailed him asking him if IF could have contributed to my adrenal/thyroid issues and he didn't say yes or no, but he gave me a detailed explanation about as to how it could have contributed to it.
Will, nice little summary. I think the WD or Martin B's (8/16) is much better than Fast 5. Where you following WD by the book with a undereating phase ie. not fasting but just eating small snack? What types of foods where you eating?
Martins approach is by far the best i have seen on the net…. I follow it just by my natural instincts… i don't like eating breakfast and i don't get hungry till about 11am…. then i eat my last dinner between 6 and 8pm. I don't follow his cycling from low car to high after workouts… and i am not really hungry enough to eat a huge meal after lifting weights.
I would like to read ray peats explanation if you would mind posting it Will… i remember you explaining your experience with the WD awhile back… i couldn't last on it either…
I spent many years when I was younger variations of the warrior diet and intermittent fasting. It was natural for me because I always ate this way when I was younger. Nothing really magically happened and it did not improve my body composition. I also did IF while I was low carb, and I think this contributed to my adrenal problems. The warrior diet or any other type of IF will cause some people to have more energy during the day because it will raise cortisol and adrenaline levels so that your body has fuel to function.
Most of the people I know, especially that fat people do this by accident. They don't eat all day, then they gorge at night, then they aren't hungry the next morning because they gorged the night before, and the cycle repeats.
Ayurveda teaches to eat your main meal during lunch, and that the worst thing you could do is eat a huge meal at night before sleep. Most latin cultures have lunch as the main meal of the day as well.
My best body composition was achieved by spreading meals throughout the day. This is also how I healed my adrenal burnout.
Hmm. I always flirted with the idea of the warrior diet and the concept seems very appealing to me. Just as making dinner the biggest meal of the day intuitively feels right to me.
IMO, its a cultural thing. In many cultures of the world supper (what we call lunch) is the biggest meal of the day.
Keep in mind the WD is based on the Warrior tradition, which means they had to be quick and nimble during the day, and only settled down for a big meal at night when camped.
But for me personally, I have never been much of a breakfast eater, so the WD (and Leangains) naturally appealed to me since it didn't really violate my basic eating patterns anyway.
So do you think that as long one is making sure to eat enough food in the evening and manages to avoid the adrenaline/cortisol release by eating very lightly throughout the day the waarioir diet would be a safe, perhaps even beneficial, thing to do?
Well Ori argues that it is so. You should read his follow-up book to see the science behind his approach. By the time he came out with that book, I was already tapering off because of personal reasons (so didn't get the book), although I still eat basically one large meal at night, although nowhere near the gargantuan portions I ate back then.
Having said that, I know a number of people who solved a lot of problems using the WD (including adrenal issues) and then, like me, just gradually moved away from strict adherence in terms of amounts of food. Honestly, after awhile, your ability to eat so much decreases, at least for me and a number of others.
The other thing is that I never followed Ori's nutrition advice, only the meal timing.
Personally I think the WD's value would vary depending on the person. I do think overfeeding and underfeeding can have a complementary relationship. If you buy into some folks understanding of evolutionary history they must go together.
I don't think fasting is very well understood by people on both sides of the debate (largely because they are ignoring a rather big elephant in the room) and some of the conclusions drawn by both sides are dubious IMO for a number of reasons, but more about that in an upcoming post on my blog.
Michael: I'm totally smacking myself in the head right now. The only time I tried IF for a few weeks was during my low-carb experiment last year. So my results could easily be tainted by the fact that I was eating less than about 100 g of carbs per day during that period. I might do better on an IF plan if I didn't shun natural carbs. Might be something to experiment with in the future sometime.
My own personal opinion is that anyone engaged in any type of IF fasting, should not be consciously restricting macro-nutrients. You can cycle them but restricting them is not a very good idea.
One thing that ESE, Leangains, and the WD all have in common is that none of them preach macronutrient restriction.
I'm not denying that people can't have success with low-carb or low-fat IF, just that for many people it gets trickier and more problematic when attempting such a regimen.
It makes sense for HG groups to snack during the day on fresh food and cook dense nutrients in the evening, in the dark, around a fire, and shoot the breeze.
The relaxing, convivial atmosphere is probably also a factor that plays a role in good digestion.
I think this is true for many HG groups, and probably was the basic pattern both for HG's and later Warriors that we inherited in some parts of the west until very recently.
Some cultures have moved that meal to the middle of the day. I wonder why? Even around the 1st century the Hebrews under Roman domination ate the biggest meal at lunch while their occupiers did so at night.
Would be an interesting study to check out the history of meal timing.
I always like to point out that I don't think that WD or IF in, and of, itself was the sole source of my adrenal/thyroid problems…it was just another stressor in a list of stressors that was too much for my body to take.
With that said…
@Riles, I was completely fasting during the day. One thing that I noticed right away was that I was cold all the time and I have heard the same thing numerous times on some of the training forums that I frequent. I was basically eating everything at night…wine, ice cream, anything I could get my hands on because I was so hungry at dinner. One thing that I may have done wrong in all of this was that I would eventually gravitate to one meal, and not eat several times over the course of 4 or 5 hours…another reason that I don't just come out and flatly bash either WD or IF. I think that Martin has something right going on to be able to be that lean over such a long period of time but stuffing yourself over the course of 6 hours is still as much of a pain as spreading your meals out and eating every 2 hours…just different.
@Navajo, I could try and paraphrase Ray Peat's response but he is much smarter than I am and it would be a great disservice, so here is the exact quote…"When the thyroid function is good, the liver can store enough
glycogen to permit fasting through the night without severe stress
reactions, but the stress caused by fasting causes a sharp reduction
of the metabolic rate as soon as the glycogen stores are depleted.
Any activity besided sleeping causes high production of cortisol and
other stress hormones when the thyroid function is low. The active
hormone, T3, is mainly produced in the liver, and that production
stops when there isn't enough glucose available." So, yes fasting can cause thyroid problems, LOL!
@JT, we have many of the same experiences brother, LOL!
Personally I need to eat a breakfast early in the morning to feel my best. Most of the time I've skipped it until lunch, and this leads to a massive energy crash after finally eating. Especially if consuming caffeine during the morning.
I find it simplest just to eat three meals. My body is happy and it is socially convenient.
When the thyroid function is good, the liver can store enough glycogen to permit fasting through the night without severe stress reactions, but the stress caused by fasting causes a sharp reduction of the metabolic rate as soon as the glycogen stores are depleted. Any activity besided sleeping causes high production of cortisol and other stress hormones when the thyroid function is low. The active hormone, T3, is mainly produced in the liver, and that production stops when there isn't enough glucose available.
According to Martin Berkhan (LeanGains), the studies show it takes 3 days of continuous fasting for the thyroid function to slow down.
And that doesn't even take into account the human studies on long term fasting which neither side of the debate seems to aware of, or if they are in some vague sense tend to just dismiss as "starvation."
Meal timing seems to have a lot of cultural baggage tied to it. I found a fascinating website devoted to the history of mealtimes.
Here’s an appetizer.
"…what time to eat? Should the midday meal or evening meal be larger? Entire books were composed on this very topic. Medieval theorists, and common custom through the Renaissance, favored the "prandium," or dinner, at ten or eleven in the morning, as the larger meal. Digestion, it was thought, is fortified by movement and the heat of the sun…authors, armed with a purified Galen and other Greek authors, promoted the larger "coena," or supper, at around six in the evening. They argued that distribution of humors and spirits, the third stage of digestion, is stronger during the day, but concoction is much stronger when the mind and body are at rest… —Eating Right in the Renaissance, Ken Albala [University of California Press:Berkeley] 2002 (p. 112-3)
It seems that timing and ritual associated with mealtimes is a rich cultural dimension.
Slightly OT but possibly relevant, it also seems that we have a 20 minute window during the actual ingestion of a meal in which our feelings of satiety cannnot be triggered. People who wolf down tons within this period receive no signal that they are full. I remember my uncle used to preach the gospel of Horace Fletcher (1849?1919), an American health-food faddist of the Victorian era who earned the nickname "The Great Masticator," by arguing that food should be chewed thirty two times ? or, about 100 times per minute ? before being swallowed: "Nature will castigate those who don't masticate." (Thank you wikipedia) Here’s a modern take on fletcherism ? to quote the lead author, "the problem with fast food isn’t the food, it’s the fast": http://www2.macleans.ca/2010/04/05/eat-like-a-snail/
It is interesting but chewing food well has done me a world of good when it comes to digestion and assimilation of the meal. Sadly I forget to chew thoroughly too often and need to remind myself constantly. Thanks for the link Waterwitch very interesting.
…and talking about fast food, even just thinking about MacDonald's is apt to speed up your (eating) behaviour :-)
Maybe we should all just visualize snails, tortoises or glaciers at meal times?
When I first met my husband ten years ago, his father always joked that I ate like a soldier in boot camp–I could down a whole meal in a few minutes. Today I eat much slower, chew more thoroughly, and actually do things like talk and think between bites of food. My digestion and my enjoyment of food is much better now, probably not a coincidence.
That is probably pretty true. I saw a documentary on a hunter gatherer tribe, and the women didn't want to let the men back if they had an unsuccessful hunting trip."
Yes, but what did the documentary say about spiders….
@Michael…I'm just the messenger my friend, LOL! But analyzing the exact wording of Ray Peats' statement "When the thyroid function is good, the liver can store enough glycogen to permit fasting through the night without severe stress reactions, but the stress caused by fasting causes a sharp reduction of the metabolic rate as soon as the glycogen stores are depleted."…that statement is prefaced with "When the thyroid function is good" so with a dodgy thyroid, fasting kills your metabolic rate. Maybe a chicken and egg thing…maybe fasting doesn't trash your thyroid/metabolism, but if your thyroid is bad, fasting is a no-no.
I'm just the messenger my friend, LOL! But analyzing the exact wording of Ray Peats' statement "When the thyroid function is good, the liver can store enough glycogen to permit fasting through the night without severe stress reactions, but the stress caused by fasting causes a sharp reduction of the metabolic rate as soon as the glycogen stores are depleted."…that statement is prefaced with "When the thyroid function is good" so with a dodgy thyroid, fasting kills your metabolic rate. Maybe a chicken and egg thing…maybe fasting doesn't trash your thyroid/metabolism, but if your thyroid is bad, fasting is a no-no.
LOL! Did I sound mean or stern? Sorry, I wasn't picking on you I was just writing away. :-)
@Michael…no, not at all! Just clarifying that it wasn't my statement so I couldn't really defend (or contradict, for that matter) anything in the statement. Just parroting the information. :)
A guy lost close to 200 lbs in 18 months with Leangains.
Do you guys really think that would have been possible if IF harms your thyroid in any way??
Really curious about this because I want to give it a go myself…
@Anonymous…Keep in mind that I never said that Leangains or IF would damage your thyroid or that it didn't work. I said that it is another stress on the body, so if you already have a damaged thyroid, I wouldn't try it. Or if you already have too many other stresses on your body, the addition of IF may put you over the edge. If you are young and relatively healthy and not overstressed, you should be able to use it to lose weight. It was just too much for me. Also note that Martin advocates low volume weight training which may be a necessity following that type of dietary approach. BTW, I still read the Leangains blog all the time! :-)
Will great points. I read Martin's blog all the time too. I think the key to his and other IF'ers who are successful is that they have a lifestyle and mentality that works in symbiosis with IF'ing. If one tries to "force" the lifesyle to work for them, they will only end up more screwed.
@Riles…exactly!!! Well put! :-)
Heeeh…. why don't u work!
This is an old thread, but what the hell. I was reading a post on thyroid function in relation to PUFA on the PHD site and it got me thinking about body temp. If body temp is a direct correlation to thyroid function and in turn metabolic function then I think I have made a personal breakthrough. After reading your post a while back about testing your basal temp in the morning I was doing that on a regular basis… generally my results would be somewhere between 97.3-97.8. Not bad really.. but most recently, in the last week, I have abstained completely from alcohol (I am a regular drinker) and took my temp this morning and it was 98.2. Also, my rectal temp (yes I am willing to go there) was this morning 99.6. Additionally, I am ALWAYS hungry. I guess I am wondering what the mechanism is by which alcohol suppresses the thyroid. I also posted this question and observation on the PHD website hoping to get a few opinions. Many thanks for your great work!!