Okay, I’m a day late with these videos – filmed yesterday. Today is officially day 4. Feeling pretty good but a little run down. Lookin’ pretty though. My skin was very clear prior to starting this adventure, but it has definitely added some moisture and softness. Ooh baby. Bowels are funky, but getting back to normal (first 3 days I was shootin’ macadamia nuts). Be back with another report by Monday at the latest!
And yes, in video 2 I play devil’s advocate as I always do with these silly diets, such as the current:
“Matt’s Idiotic Leche Kick (MILK) diet.”
Raw milk hasn’t always been a bed of roses for me. It was, at one time, a toilet of thorns – I got a horrendous case of campylobacter from drinking raw milk about this time 1 year ago. This was coming from some impeccably clean, grassfed, organically-raised cows that I used to milk myself.
HED is the milk diet on steroids lol
Hey Matt,
Thanks for sharing this. Good to have another perspective that's a bit skeptical of raw milk that's not from the vegan or hard line paleo camp. I'm starting to come around, but it makes sense to me that dairy-herders aren't the only viable healthy group to emulate Weston Price style.
And of course, that said, I support raw dairy farmers, and am for the first time in my life enjoying drinking milk, particularly the Jersey milk I got for this aborted milk diet attempt. Didn't realize there might be so much of a difference between raw Holstein and raw Jersey, but I guess there can be.
Good luck- I'll keep checking the site for more updates.
For anyone who's interested, here's the Colorado Dept of Public Health and Environment report on the Kinikin Dairy outbreak:
http://www.campylobacterblog.com/uploads/file/Montrose%20raw%20dairy%20report%20Final-1.pdf
And you can read up on campylobacteriosis at Wikipedia here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campylobacteriosis
disclosure: I drink a lot of raw milk! So I'm not posting this as anything other than FYI for those who are curious about the circumstances/investigation of this outbreak and the illness in general.
is it possible to write out the text of the podcasts? i get really bored watching podcasts, when i could read it much faster (not just yours, all podcasts)
i usually get through about 30 sec before the boredom sets in.
ps, you really remind me of a young bill murray. both the look and the facial expressions & the kind of bored, deadpan delivery….
ps, to make a long story short, what happened with the campylobacter? i tried but could not make it through the whole thing…
Matt,
WTF? You know what the ideal diet is, I'm reading 180 degree metabolism. Why the milk diet?
Matt,
I'm on day 8 and still "shootin' macadamia nuts" myself. Any advice? I'm drinking 6-7 quarts of raw, room temperature jersey milk per day, including about 3 cups as homemade kefir.
As one whose, uh… cocoa pebbles have always been rather pebbley anyway, the nutty size isn't so much a concern as is the nutty color. What might it indicate?
I hope to be squeezing out sweet potatoes like a champ real soon, but having only recently overcome nearly lifelong constipation, perhaps for now I should just be happy to be keeping things moving every day?
Well, enjoy your dinner!
Matt,
What do you mean the people at the Weston A. Price Foundation conference weren't too healthy? Did they look unhealthy or did they say they were unhealthy?
As far as exercise, or overexercise I should say, lowering body temperature, are you saying that many professional athletes have metabolic problems? I played soccer growing up up until freshman year of college and never had any noticeable problems speaking-wise or other.
I think a great diet can be attained without raw milk, but it's interesting how cultures in the world who consume dairy are on average taller than those who don't.
By the way, do you still comment on old posts?
Dan-
Curiosity, idiocy, and my girlfriend has to be on a liquid diet right now. Figured it was a good opportunity to learn something.
Mike-
I think, in general, many people suffer from constipation on the milk diet. That color is pretty normal. Frightening, but normal.
No, I don't feel like handwriting out the podcasts. In fact, doing the podcasts/vlogs are a way to break up the excessive writing I'm already doing. Sorry. Glad I'm like Bill Murray. We went to the same college. He was expelled though. I just left after a year to go to a different school.
Angel-
Thanks for the link. Nice photo of the milking parlor that I spent plenty of time in. I didn't know there were 81 friggin' confirmed cases. Holy Schnikies. Poor Scott. The guy gave up his whole life to provide raw milk to the public – milked his cows twice a day without a day off for almost 4 years straight just to scrape by. Being a farmer blows. I don't know how they do it. I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy.
Derek-
Let's just say I attended the WAPF conference thinking that a bunch of uber-healthy fanatics were going to be there. Since living in the two of the leanest states in the U.S. – Colorado and Hawaii, the people at the conference looked enormous and incredibly ill compared to the average people that live in my hometown (very few white people are overweight where I live, except the people that work at the health food store).
I do comment on old posts.
Hi,
I used to read your blog a few months ago and I haven't been following lately because i've been feeling pretty good. i went on high fat low carb because any amount of sugar started bothering me, but that backfired in about two months, then i started to add in more balance in the form of dairy, then finally more starchy type stuff. Now I eat balanced and have no problem with sugar HOWEVER I do follow the SCD which means not eating grains, etc, because although I have a normal metabolism and its not such a big deal to eat everything I feel more like a superhuman following SCD, never ever tired after eating. Also, I am posting here because I want to discuss milk. I get grassfed milk from a ranch but I still can't handle it at all unless its yogourt, non-homogenized. I would eat yogourt all day long if i could and sometimes i do, and i eat cream and butter no prob, but milk really messes with me. i will get totally sore in all my joints, muscles and i get a headache. so that's what i have to say, i guess i'm trying to wrap my head around this milk diet thing, since casein/lactose are apparently very common allergens and are still there even in raw milk, even tho its not as bad? i get the vibe you're more into overcoming food allergies that avoiding the food, matt, so i dont know why im bringing this up, its just my personal findings. I can eat sour curds, too. I've heard before that humans have only been able to digest lactose for X-thousand years and still not all of them can, yet they've found milk traces in vessels way older, blah blah blah. but what i'm saying is maybe this fermenting thing has something to it. And what's your opinion about the fermentation freaks??
Great post Matt!
Any chance anyone can provide insight re tales of giving up the sugar/fructose…. I keep failing and need inspiration! Have 30 pounds to lose and am sick of being sick… I know the sugar is to blame but fail when I go cold turkey and fail when I try the moderation thing! any advice would be very welcome right now!!!! Ta :)
Having trouble with posting, sorry if it shows up twice.
Matt,
Sorry to hear you were sick. I’m not convinced the milk was the source, but listening to you give a levelheaded account of things makes me wonder. The health department’s final report seems pretty convincing too. On the other hand, there were a lot of people with similar symptoms all over the western slope of Colorado that do not drink raw milk. The HD’s cohort study compared our shareholders to a population set on the eastern slope from an earlier timeframe. Not a good comparison in my opinion.
A few shareholders believe it was the milk, but most do not.
A health care worker told us that there is usually a spike in campy illnesses every spring as the irrigation water starts and kids are playing in it (however not 81 cases). There were also 12 large windstorms that covered everything with a red dust from Utah that spring.
One shareholder family related that two family members drink the milk and two do not. In each set of two one was sick and one was not. When there is so much we do not understand about immunity and illness, I have a tough time believing that our milk was the only source for the campy outbreak last year.
I take it you’re in CA if you’re drinking OPOD’s milk. I’ve been thinking about you lately, as we’re a bit long on cream. Wondering if you’d take some and free up some refrigerator space? By the way, campy is not very happy in raw milk and if present at all, is so reduced or gone in two days that it’s not much of an issue. Cream and butter are such poor growth mediums that the conventional system doesn’t even test them for pathogens. Ask Mark.
Scott
Hey Matt, What do you know about the GAPS diet?
I'm following it right now after eating wapf style and diana schwarzbein style with no improvement in health symptoms. Come to find out I'm not absorbing nutrients.
I wonder if many people who start eating wapf style have underlying health issues that can't be addressed without a special healing phase?
Anyway, the point of the GAPS diet is to make it so that you can eventually eat norrmally again, after your gut is healed, but right now I'm basically eating paleo. No grains, tubers, legumes, sugar, dairy. I can have raw honey and fruit.
It sucks.
But I seem to be getting better for the first time ever. My migraines are going away, eczema is gone,
my limbs aren't falling asleep as much, I'm not as swollen….my muscles and joints aren't constantly hurting.
I guess it differs from the paleo diet in that I drink a lot of broth and a lot of fermented foods, and the goal is not to eat less and less normals foods over the years, but more.
Also similar to the milk diet in that the point is to heal your digestion…..
Just wondering what your thoughts are.
Kate…may I answer please? KEEP going! I have been doing this for a year and finally etting better but absorption problems take a long while to cure. Add Fermented Cod LIver Oil and I also take Bernard Jensen’s Bovine gelation (1/4 t a day) and Superscilica and I’m getting better and better. I have a feeling I have another year to go. If you’re anything like me, I took me years to get sick so don’t expect to get well overnight. I follow WAPF diet but I have to agree with Matt’s video that if people don’t look well something is up. No regime is the “end-all-to-be-all-that is all-that ever was-all” listen to your body and if it is working for now, let it ride. I’m almost 50 and that has been the best method so far. I’ve been doing WAPF and I may do somethings else cause I feel that maybe I’m at my limit there, I’m not sure yet. I do know that healthy, organic and fermemted foods (to combat our sugar crazed American diet) are always the right thing to do it’s just the details about quanities that one needs to iron out and that is only AFTER your gut is healed.
Hi Matt:
I live in an area where Raw milk is impossible to get. . . the dairies here will NOT let you have it, they will lose thier licences and I can't find someone with one lonely cow . . . Even our "natural, organic" milk is pasturized and homogenized . . unfortunately.
Could someone do the Milk Diet on the regular homogenized, pasturized store milk? Just wondering.
Matt do you have a higher resting pulse after you've had a meal? Perhaps cold hands or feet here and there?
Kate,
I'm with you.
Despite attempts to try to eat grains/starch in so many ways, over so many years, the end result is always ugly: a whole host of health maladies.
But a GAPS/Specific Carbohydrate Diet, proves – for me at least – the best option.
Actually, probably not 'me' so much but the microbes.
They rule the show, in my opinion.
Microbial communities vary from individual to individual, and some folk seem to positively thrive on grains and starches.
But others dont.
In time some can add some more g&s back into the diet. Others have to be very careful indeed.
If not, there are still a whole lot of meats, vegies, fruits, nuts, yogurts (and cheeses for some)that one can feast on.
Thanks for sharing
Wattlebird
Jannis, I tend to have cold hands and feet from time to time. They tend to get hot after a meal though. Is that related to cortisol or adrenals?
Jannis-
No cold hands or feet. I'm raging warm most of the time, like the Bieler "adrenal type" description.
On GAPS-
I do have positive thoughts about the GAPS diet, specifically the rehabilitative bias of Campbell-McBride, who wants to heal people and not go on some evangelistic tangent about how starch is el diablo. Inability to digest starch very well seems to be one of the primary hurdles that people run into trying to HED it.
Scott Freeman, lo and behold. Excellent to hear from you. You're right, immunity is complex. I probably would have been fine if I hadn't just come off of years of low-carbing only to run into some campylobacter. My conversations with Kim, Kevin, etc. and the timeliness of the illness are pretty tough to pin it on something else. 81 cases when there is a history of a half dozen in the area is pretty convincing as well.
But that's the risk we take, just as those who avoid the risk of pathogens in the milk avoid the risks of drinking pasteurized milk but instead take the risks of drinking dead, unhealthy bacteria (Weston A. Price showed in laboratory research that unhealthy bacterial residues are more toxic and pathogenic than the bacteria themselves), allergic reaction to denatured casein (raw casein is less causative of health problems – almost identical to human milk protein), lactose intolerance, xanthine oxidase, oxidized cholesterol, hormones, and so on.
I don't need much cream right now as I'm out of town until around May 25-ish. If you have extra milk, I'd much rather drink yours than Mark's. Let me know. I'd take 12 gallons a week for 2 weeks and have been going back and forth on the idea of getting a 3-gallon per week cow share going with ya. Plus, I'm dying to see the new milking area in action. Maybe I'll pay you a visit at the end of May. Depends on how Aurora's doing and how quickly I can finish the eBook I'm just starting I suppose. I'll call you.
Oh yeah, and I'm clabbering my milk right now. Much better. The sweetness of the milk is gross. At first taste it's yummy. After 3 hours it starts to taste like syrup.
Sugar addict-
How long have you been really trying to eat well, sleep well, nourish yourself like a champ? I wouldn't try to give up anything until you've done that for a while.
Matt; have you ever tried SCD or GAPS??
I haven't for very long. When I did it was basically incidentally trying it as part of a half-assed primal diet. Emotionally, it was way too much for me, and I was binging on candy bars in about 4 days. I bet I could do better with it now though, especially with cooked meat and more reasonable amounts of fat.
I had never actually looked up GAPS, only SCD. was just reading the site and some of the recipes look really really great. I think a lot of SCD-ers have a hard time starting with the current popular diet ideals (no cholesterol, etc.) because you dont know what the hell you're supposed to eat. i started really liking turnips lately. i chop them up small, with pumpkin pieces, put them in the pan with salt but no oil, fry them on medium with a lid and then add butter when they're done. i started getting a little grossed out with over-frying oil after eating so much of it…. so i add the fats at the end.
Sugar Addict, I struggled with the sugar fasting for a really long time. When I switched focus to trying to eat as much real food as possible in a day, and not worry about the "sugar on top" so to speak, it fell into line.
After four days of milk fasting, I did have an uncontrollable carb binge. It wasn't centered on sugar, but on white flour. I'm not sure what brought it on, still. I switched from trying to milk fast entirely to trying to drink a quart per day. I'm doing better with this and feel more capable of handling cravings when I know that I'm not limited only to milk. This strategy seems to be working. I'm replacing at least one meal a day with milk and my temps are up.
Matt can you try the GAPS next time you do one of these extremist diet stints? and try it for a month or two?
Jo,
"I think a lot of SCD-ers have a hard time starting with the current popular diet ideals (no cholesterol, etc.) because you dont know what the hell you're supposed to eat."
Yes I agree, the saturated fat, cholesterol bugaboo can be a step too far for some.
Then the fructose (fruit) and Omega 6 thing (nuts) is another obstacle for others.
But, if one does not get too blinkered by these fears, and observes the overall improvements that occur (for me at least), then such objections become irrelevant.
best, Wattlebird.
Wattlebird, from looking into SCD, it looks like something designed to help people with extreme digestive illnesses like Crohns. Why should Matt or someone who doesn't have this level of illness want to do it? The reliance on legumes, nuts and fruit would seem to be setting some people up for a lot of inflammatory symptoms. I'm all for healing health problems through diet, though, and I'm glad you've found SCD to work for you.
Jenny – I don't find there to be a high reliance on legumes or even nuts with SCD. Most beans and stuff are illegal to eat with the diet anyways. I personally only reserve nuts for desserts. I just think this particular exclusion diet is worth consideration. Anyone who is 'tired after they eat' should try this diet. have you ever tried it.
Also, I don't really agree with reserving this diet only for people with the 'level of illness' of serious conditions. if it helps them, then there is probably a lot of minor stuff in 'normal people' it would help too. and either way, isnt it matt's job to be a guinea pig? he said he actually kind of agreed with some of the tactics of the gaps, and its not a diet that excludes carbs-proteins-fats balance.
I do agree with the reasons behind the strategy of GAPS/SCD. It is a "specific diet to target and heal a specific disorder" which, to me, is really the essence of what nutrition is to be used as.
I would love to try it, but like I said, in the past I've only been able to try it. 4 days was as long as I could make it. Sugar without starch has been very difficult for me in the past, but I do feel more capable of succeeding with it now if I were to try it.
I think this is also why I'm having to clabber my milk. With it too sweet, I get loco – junk food cravings and raging irritibility mixed with irrational sadness.
I could drink sweet milk with starch all day long though without such issues.
Jennythenipper,
"Why should Matt or someone who doesn't have this level of illness want to do it?"
No reason at all, not advocating any special eating plan at all, to the exclusion of other approaches.
Different folks, diffeent microbial communities.
Rather, was just tring to make the point, that for some folk trying to solve health problems by eating grains and starch (no matter how prepared, or how good the quality is) doesn't work.
This is not to knock any of the healing protocols mentioned here, just that for some folk, it is the microbial flora, that dictates certain healing protocols.
And GAPS or Specific Carbohydrate diets are not restorative for just Crohns or Ulcerative Colitis, but a whole host of digestive maladies, and sundry other health issues.
for what its worth,
Wattlebird
I wouldn't consider myself as having a serious digestive disorder. I didn't even know that i was malabsorbing until we tested for it.
I would not have guessed that the problems I was having were due to gut problems!
But since it's working amazingly well, I'm sticking with it.
I don't intend on eating like this forever either.
In fact, Natasha Campbell-McBride is a big advocate of grass fed dairy as soon as you can handle it.
I'm not craving sugar, though I am craving cheese and cream.
I do eat a lot of fruit though, i feel like I can't get enough carbs otherwise.
Oh, and I'm not eating any legumes, there are only a few you can have and I haven't added them in yet.
Matt,
Are you sure that clabbering the milk is approved by milk diet gurus from back in the day?
Now you know why I had to chug the milk cold when I was doing it! It became so disgusting to me that this was the only way I could get it down. It was not too sweet for me though, my problem was that it wasn't sweet enough for me. This could be a sign that we are different "types", as might body functions much better than yours on a high sugar diet.
You seem like you may be better off in general with a more moderate carb/low sugar diet. Milk in general may be a problem for you as well. Are you having mucus issues?
@Kate…"when the only tool you have is a hammer, you treat everything like a nail"…and this is the case with me, so I recommend Brewer's Yeast. People here are probably sick of hearing this but it works great for migraines, muscle aches, and low stomach acid. You might also want to check out a digestive aid like HCl tablets, pancreatic enzymes, betaine, papain, zypan, or some mixture of these.
My 6 yo son has a boatload of health problems and we reluctantly agreed to put him on an h2 blocker (Axid) for his constant stomach aches. A few days later his knees started hurting and then some other joint pains. He has also tested positively (blood work) for rheumatoid arthritis recently. I read in an old newsletter from Dr. Jonathon V. Wright that low stomach acid can cause rheumatoid arthritis flare ups. I relayed this to his rheumatologist and gastroenterologist at the end of last week and am waiting to work out how to proceed with them. So the point of this long story is that once we put him on something to reduce his stomach acid, he had joint pain, so perhaps if you can fix your stomach acid, your joint problems will be resolved or at least lessened. Good luck.
JT-
I used to be totally baffled when people told me that such and such was "too sweet." I didn't even know what that was.
After years of eating a diet without many sweets, and with virtually no refined sugar, my sweet tastes have changed dramatically.
Clabbering is approved.
Hell yeah I'm having mucous issues.
On digestion-
I have a keen interest in all of this discussion. It hasn't been an emphasis lately, but it dominated a lot of my early research. There is much left to be uncovered there, and there's no doubt that SIBO and similar disorders are at the root of many people's problems. Where they go from there is a tough question to answer.
Hey Matt- Just wondering what you thought of this since we're all abundantly nourishing overselves:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=protein-stops-inflammation-metabolic-diseases
Apparently, the breed of cow that the milk comes from makes a difference. See here: http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2009/07/09/The-Devil-in-the-Milk.aspx
I don't know why everyones railing on raw milk here. Don't get me wrong, yogurt is excellent, no doubt. But each person may be a bit different — some enjoy raw milk perhaps more than others. But when you undertake the raw milk diet, obviously it's different than the norm, but you have to ask yourself whether you don't think you like it because it's different or because you truly, in your heart of hearts, cannot consume milk. I'd bet the former. This is my twenty-third day on the milk diet. If you're doing it for kicks, you may not have remotely as much drive as someone who seems to have tried everything else. You have to ask yourself how much you really want it, whatever that "it" is. ;-)
Riles,
I got the same problem a while ago.
I asked Peat about it. When your hands and feet become warmer and your pulse faster after a meal while they become colder the longer you haven't eaten that probably means that your liver isn't storing enough glycogen to keep your blood sugar steady.
He told me that if i were following his dietary advices and getting enough calcium (atleast 1500mg a day) and salt my liver would adjust to keeping my metabolic rate (T3) consistently a little higher.
Since I began to follow his advices and eat sugar and starch together this has worked for me.
My resting pulse is now ca. 70 and my hands and feet seldom become cold unless I haven't eaten anything for a long time.
@Jannis:
That's interesting, as I'm havin similar problems with cold hands. I might give that a try. Afaik, you drink OJ, with your meals, don't you? Do you think simply eating a few pieces of fruit would do the same?
Thanks Jannis
After checking my diet it seems that my calcium levels are on the low end at around 500mg a day. Do you consume milk for calcium or supplements?
I clabbered some of my milk on the milk diet. It was a nice variation. I used a splash of lemon juice in a glass and let it sit for a few minutes. It actually tasted like lemon pudding to me, not bad at all.
I've been doing some experimenting with sugar lately. A milk+sugar combo seems to work well with me. Like orange julius or chocolate milk with rapadura (no negative side effects so far, Michael, but thanks for the heads-up, I'm keeping an eye out just in case). I usually blend a couple raw eggs into these and my blood sugar is really stable on it. I really didn't think that would be possible, but I even noticed at times this keeps me feeling full for hours instead of getting hungry soon after, which is not what I expected. I've been eating more fruit and raw honey as well, but I'm not wholly excluding starch. As far as I'm concerned potatoes are man's best friend. ;)
I have the GAPS book and I think overall it's good advice. Not for everyone, but then again neither is the milk diet. I do like the ideas of including more bone broths and probiotic foods in the diet. I think most people would benefit from that.
muuh,
yes i do but i also eat some fresh oranges with my meals. A typical dinner would be: soup with 250-300g potatos, corn, fresh green beans and a piece of coconutoil – 100g of cheese together with oranges (i don't like to eat cheese without anything else)- and a bit less than 1/2 quart of orange juice. Make sure it is juice not from concentrate!
In the end it doesn't matter whether you eat oranges or drink orange juice. Oranges just have a few extra grams of fiber.
Riles,
I eat cheese and drink milk. It is very easy to get the required amount of calcium. Absolutely no need for supplements! I eat 200g of cheese a day. That's already 1500mg. Then I drink at least 1/2 quart of milk a day. That's another 700mg. A quart of OJ contains 400mg. I guess I get around 2700-3000 mg a day.
Wattlebird and other SCD/GAPSers: Sorry I missed that. It's just that the main SCD page I could find was called "No More Crohn's Disease." Adding in probiotics and bone broths has been very beneficial to me and my family. I know people who've healed digestive problems simply by eating broth every day.
It looks like the restrictions aren't for ever, is that right? Until the bad bacteria are starved and symptoms go away?
Temps are still up, for me, despite having less milk over the week-end. I'm wondering if drinking the extra milk is just putting my calories up where they should have been. It's an easy way to get extra calories.
It’s me again…. SUGAR ADDICT!
Thanks so much for the advice Matt, your right, I may still not be eating well enough yet to cope with cold turkey, and thanks Jennythenipper too… Nice turn of phrase that, "sugar on top" maybe it’s my new mantra. I have always had a problem with sugar, cereals and grains used to shake as soon as I got hungry! I did metabolic typing and was a fast oxidizer, but although I felt better eating high fat/protein and wasn't aiming for low carb, I noticed that after a while I was hardly eating anything just wasn't getting hungry or inspired to eat for hours and hours which is not me at all! Then late at night in particular I craved sugar like a demon! I got tired…. too often. I started trying HED but don't think I am quite there nutritionally at the moment (my fault – probably still not eating enough) and am still craving sugar, maybe I have been eating too low carb up to this point and am now making up for it.
Live in the UK so am unable to get Stevia, but have found organic unrefined cane sugar… I know it’s not ideal so UNTIL my nutrition is up to speed may make something sweet occasionally but reducing the sugar… I have been making organic wholemeal spelt bread (to replace white flour)for a few months and seem to be able to tolerate that quite well so will see if a similar sugar weaning experiment works, maybe a little of what you fancy does do you good ? for the time being! Cheers me Dears! :)
Jenny,
I am with you on your milk approach. By just adding 2-3 big glasses of milk daily–not raw but only gently pasteurized–I noticed significant overall health improvements. My eczema on my hand cleared and has not returned, and I don't know about anyone else but when I incorporate milk into my diet my digestion and elimination become impeccable.
Nathan: Yeah, I thought I was failing at the Milk Diet, but I am seeing positive change just by eliminating one or two meals a day in favor of milk. I'm only getting half the recommended amount for the diet at 2-3 quarts per day.
I was surprised to see improvements in my digestion. I thought for sure I would be constipated since that is something I've always battled.
Sugar addict,
Have you ever tried sweetening desserts with dextrose? Light corn syrup lists dextrose as its one and only ingredient. I made a pecan pie with mostly corn syrup and just alittle added unrefined cane sugar a few months ago, and it tasted fine, especially to my taste buds that have been separated from sugary sweets for so long. I'm sure it's not best to eat every day, as with any dessert, but it's got to be better than eating a pile of white sugar. That is, according to Matt's starch is better than sugar theory. Works for me. I feel great on potatoes and corn and rice.
Sugar Addict: Just eat the food! Don't sweat perfection. Get your calories up, aim for nutrient dense foods and get some rest. When you are fed and rested your body will quit craving that quick fix. I used to be a tea fiend, would drink several pots a day sweetened with sugar. I don't even care about it anymore. Once a week, I have a cup with my family just to be social. I became a sugar/tea junkie living in the UK. It's a terrible sugar/caffeine/booze loop that it has taken me a year to break (after being in it for decades). (Kombucha and milk helped me break the booze cravings which have only recently gone away.)
"I eat cheese and drink milk. It is very easy to get the required amount of calcium. Absolutely no need for supplements! I eat 200g of cheese a day. That's already 1500mg. Then I drink at least 1/2 quart of milk a day. That's another 700mg. A quart of OJ contains 400mg. I guess I get around 2700-3000 mg a day."
This may be another reason I'm seeing positive changes with the milk diet. Even though it seemed like I ate was getting enough calcium it probably wasn't. I know Ray Peat is huge on getting calcium to help the thyroid.
Also, I just have to add that it's hilarious that Matt is teaching is the proper technique for drinking milk. No making me laugh. The milk is coming out my nose! Laughing as I did, I still found it helpful.
@ Jannis thanks very much for sharing Peat's info. It is very interesting as I have noticed simply eating some raisins with my oatmeal keeps me warmer a lot longer. If I don't have some fruit sugar my hands get cold pretty quick after eating a meal unless it is huge.
Same goes for in between meal times, 2-3 hours after eating lunch my hands will get cold and foggy headed but I wont be particularly hungry. An Apple will fix the problem within 20 minutes…… So is this coming from an increased metabolism?
Surely this is something Matt would want to look into as I think I am not the only one who feels better eating HED with some fruit in the mix……
@Jannis: Thanks for that info. Btw, do you eat (mostly) raw cheese or pasteurized? I've found it rather hard to find raw milk cheese that isn't expensive or some sort of speciality.
Actually, I think this is a question that goes out to every one. I really would like to hear your input on that. My cheese consumption certainly has increased drastically and so I think that whether that cheese/casein has been heat treated or not could make a difference.
Hooray for the semi milk diet. I ordered a 1l drinking bottle today and I think replacing at least one of my meals with milk will prove to be very convenient for me. Especially in school, I'm usually going about 8 hours without any food inbetween breakfast and lunch, which isn't bothering me much most of the time though.
Also, it's nice to hear everyone's experiences with fruit. I certainly will add some more fruit (probably together with the milk) into my diet. Even though right now I've the feeling that fruit is actually making me hungrier. But it's too early to come to any conclusions.
Also, I suggest that we make this the official 180 theme song.
Speaking of meals that cause thermic effects. POTATOES!!!
I often get a significant surge in body heat after eating 2-3 potatoes.
That's awesome madMUHHH.
madMuhh: Common raw cheese: Aged Provolone from Italy, Emmentaler from Switzerland and Parmesan Reggiano.
In the words of Samwise Gangee, "Po-tat-oes; boil 'em, mash 'em, stick 'em in a stew"
Ahh, ok. But I'm more of a soft cheese type myself. But maybe I also just have to look a lil better and ask around.
Soft raw milk cheese is illegal in the US. You might be able to get some through the sources who sell raw milk. For cheese to be sold in a store it has to be aged.
If you are in Euope of course you can get real brie, camembert, taleggio and the like, all made with raw milk. Taleggio is aged, but it still has a fairly soft consistancy. You can get some here at:
http://www.zingermans.com/product.aspx?ProductID=C-TAL
Here's an awesome WI-made semi-soft cheese, made with raw milk:
http://www.hollandsfamilycheese.com/
Chris,
No not really. The apple just gives you some sucrose which will raise your blood sugar and keep it steady for a while. That's why you feel warm. You cells get new fuel from which they can make new ATP.
But as I mentioned above, I think that some fruit sugar in a healthy diet will help you to increase your metabolsim in the long term.
muhhh,
I'm eating normal supermarket cheese. "Butterk’se" from ALDI ;)
Don't think there is a hughe advantage in eating raw cheese.
It's me again… SUGAR ADDICT!
Thanks for the advice! Haven't tried dextrose Danyelle, will keep my eye out for it though. I made lemon ice cream with maple syrup the other day and that worked well, plus I made it with double (heavy) cream so it's really filling and only need a spoon to stop the craving! Thanks again Jennythenipper, caught the British tea habit did ya? Yes we do love the tea… I don't have sugar in tea and try to avoid drowning in it! Will try to eat more though, am married to a guy who can eat anything all day without putting a pound on or getting sick, everyone is jealous of him, he is a natural HED guy! Proves Matt's point! Gonna cost a fortune in grocery bills ! :)
@Jennythenipper:
Thanks for the links, but I live in Germany, so that's not really helpful for me, but I guess I should be kinda lucky, as I actually am able to obtain raw milk soft cheese. Also about once a week I buy a raw goat's milk cream cheese, which is pretty expensive, but so goddamn delicious and worth the money. I could eat that stuff all day.
Well if you live in Germany then no worries! Just go to the supermarket and forget the links.
Thanks for the feedback fruity lovers.
On my recent vacation I ate tons of fruit. At first I didn't do well with it, and started wheezing after eating it.
Later in the trip I seemed to be getting better with it, and feeling good. Interestingly though, I got so hungry that I constantly felt nausea from hunger pangs, gained 5 pounds, and my body temperature dropped to lows I haven't seen since November.
I could see that perhaps the fruit, on first blush seeming to be a negative based on that tale, could just be dropping the adrenals through the floor. Hence the wheezing for a few days. However, this could provide tremendous rest as well. Always a fine line in trying to differentiate. I've tended to avoid fruits and sweets in the past because of the drastic increase in tooth pain from consuming them. This is easily perceptible to me since I don't brush my teeth every day.
Also, my diet included refined sugar and absurd amounts of white flour. It would be a little unfair to pin it all on fruit. Who knows. I'm trying to keep an open mind about it, no matter what my personal response may be.
Glad to hear some of you have noticed positive changes from throwing some milk in there. I got excited about it a month ago when I did a massive feeding with milk and woke up to the highest body temperatures I've ever taken since recording in early 2009 – 98.2-3
So far no body temperature spikes on the milk diet though. Just a sinus infection and faucet nostrils – but they are clearing up which shows promise.
Katerina-
I recommend overeating for recovery, but the end point often consists of lowered appetite. Like I said a month or go somewhere, I've eaten fewer calories so far this year than any year in my adult life with total satisfaction and no nagging hunger (until eating a bunch of junk on vacation).
Anonymous Sugar Addict, I really wouldn't be eating ice cream if I were trying to get off sugar, whether it's made with maple syrup or the refined white stuff. Even natural sweeteners will keep your sweet tooth alive, and you won't see the benefits of going completely sugar-free. Take it from someone who knows.
Matt's written about natural sweeteners in the past: http://180degreehealth.blogspot.com/2007/08/all-natural.html
Sugar Addict – I was the type who ate sugar straight if nothing else was available. My kids too. Like Matt said, there was no such thing as too sweet. First I switched to fruit/honey, but we still consumed huge amounts, for about a year. And no flour, etc. Then we did a two month candida cleanse w/no fruit, hardly any starch, etc. Now we eat starchy veg, limited grains, and fruit or something barely sweetened for dessert – so it is doable! I personally tend to go cold turkey on everything, but that's my preference.
When we eat something sweet now, I always pair with fat and protein, and often sour, like kefir (yogurt). We really find the natural sweetness of foods to be more than enough, something I could have never imagined before. And Matt, before we switched off fruit, my teeth would ache too if I ate sweet fruit – but of course it didn't stop me!
I make a delish ice cream w/ real cream and kefir and the tiniest amount of sugar possible. It's sweet/tangy all at the same time, and it's so good – but nobody else would enjoy it, because their tastes buds are so traumatized by fake food. You really get to enjoy that sourness of fermented foods.
Another thing I find helpful – when I did crave sugar, eat more fat and protein. Like bacon. It really helps.
Jennythenipper,
"It looks like the restrictions aren't for ever, is that right? Until the bad bacteria are starved and symptoms go away?"
Ideally, no not for life.
But, "ideally" may not always marry with reality.
Some folk, can reintroduce starch, grains quicker than others. Some take much longer. Some not at all. Some do ok with just meagre amounts of s & g, others with more liberal quantites.
There are no rules.
Microbial communities appear to be the arbiter.
It seems there are numerous factors that influence the microbial populations ranging from status of pregnant mother before birth, to antibiotic use, environmental toxins, shoddy foods, stresses.
Those with the most comprised microbial flora often need to be the most vigiliant, as these inner communities can change for the worse very quickly. And of course along with the change, back come the maladies again.
Some folk may indeed – for whatever reason – have a microbial landscape that can become comprimised more readily than others.
But that doesn't mean by eating according to what works and building up suitable microbial pupulations, that many of such people cant lead healthy robust lives.
Even if an "ideal" situation of a diet plentiful with grains, starches (and dairy) is not possible.
Wattlebird
Mad – we try to eat raw cheese, just because I'm less worried about what's been done to the cow – but in Hawaii there's not a lotta cheese going on. So we stick w/ imported cheeses, at least since I know Europe's less hormone friendly. Love that Dubliner from Ireland!
Jenny, thanks for the list of cheeses more likely to be raw. Sometimes the cheese doesn't say pasteurized OR raw, so it's a guessing game.
Just wanted to update – when we first found this site, I was worried because my kids were ALWAYS hungry or complaining they were, no matter how much they ate. We've been making sure each meal is a Schwarzbein square (well, we don't eat veg for breakfast… bleach…) of fat, protein, starch and veg. I don't worry about quantities too much. Anyhow, the last few days, they've been turning food away. Hooray! Of course, my daughter's gotten a little chunky… but I bet that will even out as she slows down her eating. On the other hand, she seems to have new probs constantly popping up. I'm hoping it's a detox thing and we don't need to go to GAPS or something like that. Right now it's a vaginal yeast infection (I think). Huh? She's just a little girl. So not cool.
As for me… still getting fat in the hiney, temps are all over, and still not sleeping. Stupid adrenals. Grrr. But it's only been a few weeks.
Lorelei, if you like the Dubliner, look for real farm house cheddars. They will be pricey in Hawaii (but isn't everything, but Pineapple?) Amazing, and often made with raw milk. A good one like:
http://www.zingermans.com/Product.aspx?productid=c-efc
will blow the doors off Dubliner, which is made by Kerygold, the Kraft of Ireland. (Not that Ireland has anything near as evil as Kraft, but it is still a big corporate farming entity.) Last trip back to the Old Country my husband and I smuggled pounds of cheese back in our suitcase along with a bunch of haggis.
Will, I thought I had read somewhere that brewers yeast was an excitotoxin – like MSG it has free glutamate in it. Some say nutritional yeast is better and not an excitotoxin. I am on the look out for good quality nutritional yeast tablets but haven't found any – but did find a delicious nutritional yeast powder. On the other hand I should mention that my grandmother is 100 years old and has been taking brewers yeast tablets for much of her life … but she has also lead a 'charmed' nutritional life – fresh vegetables from the garden, homemade bread, everything local and home cooked, quiet peaceful comfortable existence … so whether it is the brewers yeast or not who knows.
I don't know how anyone can contemplate a milk diet – I love all dairy but milk – yuk!
Dinosaur, thanks for the info…I had not heard any negatives about Brewer's Yeast but that doesn't mean that they don't exist…just that I haven't heard of them. ;-)
Let me know what you find out as far as nutritional yeast goes. The more info, the better. Thanks again.
Jenny – I think Costco carries that kind of cheese too (from England, I think), I will get it next time! Haggis in the suitcase, really? That's one thing I can't imagine eating… but I'm trying to convince people who visit me to smuggle real foie gras pate in their suitcases – they've never heard of it here.
Funnily enough, pineapple is NOT cheaper, and bananas are imported and more expensive. Go figure. Which is why we hunt our own. The only thing cheaper (not even seafood, at least by much) is grass fed beef. On the Big Island, we've got more cows that people. I'm staring at them now. They look tasty. Oh, and I've come to realize after most others comments that raw milk isn't so expensive either. Hmm, and some "exotic" fruits such as dragonfruit are cheaper – the ones that don't have much market on the mainland.
The problem is something like 90% of the food is imported – even stuff that grows well here. It's cheaper for the stores to do it that way, I guess. I buy most everything at farmer's markets (but you have to know who is selling wholesale produce from CA!!) and local beef, milk and eggs – but I run around a lot to do it. And some things I get at Costco. Local carrots, $3/lb, organic Costco carrots, $0.50/lb. I can't justify the price difference! Anyhow, that's my rant… it's just crazy. Food runs and grows wild but we ship it all from the mainland… and local food actually costs more! Maybe Matt had a different experience on Maui, I don't know.
Matt, or anyone else for that matter-
My appetite is really on the decline right now. My temps never go below 97.5 (this morning was 98.0), but I'm still gaining mass. My resting heart rate is always in the 75-85 range. My weight went from 107 in August to 142 now. For the record, my pants still fit the same as when I was 125 pounds, so that tells me a lot of this is lean mass. I don't really know what to do from here, because I'm still really tired, and like I'm in a fog.. but I don't know if that's because of my adrenal issues or because I'm digesting food all the time. I feel like I'm irrationally thinking that if I stop eating as much, my muscles will go away and all progress will be lost.
Sidenote- I just recently had my first normal cycle in a very long time (very exciting stuff for someone with PCOS!)
Could anyone give me some guidance?
*edit- I feel like if I stop eating as much my muscles will go away and my temps will go down. this happened once.
@ Dinosaur: Brewers yeast does contain a negligible amount of MSG as do most yeast or malted foods I think it is nothing to be concerned with from what I have read.
@ Katerina: Are you eating to appetite and when hungry or are you consciously overeating? I would continue eating starch, protein and fat and just go with your appetite. I have started eating smaller meals naturally on HED and it seems to be working well, satiety just seems to kick in a lot sooner than it used to……
SUGAR ADDICT!
Thanks Daisy, you are right about the sugar, I gave it up for 6 weeks last year, then Christmas came?. I thought I could handle a small amount of social sugar grazing but I had major swings, cold turkey nearly killed me for the first few weeks too. The ice cream I make is really whipped real cream, with a bit of lemon juice, vanilla extract and the least amount of the sweet stuff possible, can’t eat much because it’s so rich. But I think it’s more of a psychological crutch for me. I know it’s in the freezer so I don’t buy sweets at the supermarket? I’m hoping it helps in these early stages. It’s really annoying that I have given it up completely before, and have been unable to do it again since xmas!
Cheers Lorlei aka Hawaiigirl ?great advice for helping the cravings, am sure as I eat more starches they will reduce, but I have noticed having the sweet stuff with fat / protein does seem to prevent / reduce sugar swings. So it sounds like a plan! Have eaten quite a few potatoes over the last few days since my initial post and I haven’t eaten much sugar at all! Yayyyeee!! :)
Katerina-
That added lean mass and the return of a normal menstrual cycle are major signs that you are about to turn the corner – along with the temps.
You don't have to push yourself to overeat. That's more of an early stage jumpstart. Where you're at now, as long as you eat to appetite you should feel fine. I think you're at a stage where getting large quantities of light physical activity would do you well too.
Hawaii Girl-
Sorry to hear about the yeast infection. Fruit is usually the instigator for this in susceptible people, so it's kind of funny that reducing fruit intake has yielded that.
I ate differently each time I lived in Maui. The first time I ate lots of local foods – mostly fruit, coconut, upcountry greens, kula onions, Maui cabbages, and fish.
By the third round in Maui I was eating no fruit at all and eating pretty low-carb. Foodland beef was actually cheap. Imported ribeye at 9.99 per pound. Local pork was practically free it was so cheap. Funny though, I never shopped at Costco until this year in Colorado. I blew it.
I guess I just noticed that pineapple was cheaper in Honolulu than in Minneapolis at Foodland and the like.
Just wanted to chime in and share that I've been drinking a half-gallon of raw goat milk along with some normal HED food (can't chew due to wisdom teeth extraction) everyday for the last 4 days and my temp hit a high of 98.3 this morning!
I was bouncing around 96.6-98.1 for the last couple weeks, but since friday my temps jumped 4 points daily until 7 points last night!
I'm curious if anyone knows what kind of effects hydrocodone has on the metabolism short term? All the info I've found online is about long term use and completely anecdotal. I just had all 4 wisdom teeth out, so I've been needing to pop one pretty much every 4 hours.
I am definitely keeping my calories up more fervently than usual (2500-3000 in the last week as opposed to a more regular 2000 for the last couple months or so) and I really feel more lively for it, haven't gained any more weight as far as I can tell!
Sugar Addict, I can definitely relate the cravings. What has helped me the most lately is to follow an HED-type diet, and the sugar cravings seem to naturally decrease. If I'm not eating this way, they come back with a vengeance. Eating enough calories is a huge factor.
We shouldn't have to resist cravings for our entire life, they do go away. If we can find the source of the craving (stress, poor diet, whatever it is) then get rid of that, the cravings go away. I struggle with that but I know there are definitely days where the cravings are not there, and it's reassuring.
Hey Matt,
I was kind of alarmed at this post because for one, my 7 year old daughter contracted campylobacter last summer while on vacation (we all ate the same thing and no one else was sick- I think she drank water from the indoor waterpark) and two, my 9 month old is on the raw milk formula from Nourishing Traditions.
But again, a healthier immune system probably wouldn't be as affected.
Something you said about the Weston A. Price conference/people struck me. I have been practicing the cooking methods of Nourishing Traditions for 4 years. However, not all of my health problems went away, namely, my extra 50lbs. I didn't gain, and things rearranged, as in I appear slimmer. But no loss of weight. Now I am understanding, from you, that until my body can actually do something with what I put in it, as in metabolize it correctly, then not much would change. Certainly it has helped me a lot, but I was just so confused as to why eating a natural, whole foods, soaked-to-death diet wouldn't cause me to drop extra fat.
I'm working on it. It is really REALLY hard to eat enough. I mean, I'm packing it in and it's like a chore. I'm not sure if I can gain weight- should I keep eating until I gain?? (For the HED that is)
I mean, last night I ate two whole plates of dinner (brown rice salad, asian chicken salad loaded with veggies) and after about 30 minutes, was hungry again. To the point where my stomach was growling. Alrighty, out came some fresh baked cookies…and raw milk!!
That's right Anne. If you metabolism isn't up to snuff, you will still carry too much weight. I think the fact that the weight has redistributed is probably a good sign that you are rebuilding your body. The main difference is that HED is meant to fast track the rebuilding process so that you can get your metabolism up to where your body is ready to shed some pounds. You need to focus on sleep and eliminating stress. Spend less time staying up to make bone broth and soak grains. Rather than obsess about the details of NT, think about the broader ideas (it's OK to eat saturated fat, it's ok to eat starchy vegetables as long as they are cooked properly, vegetable oils are usually poison, processed foods are full of junk and devoid of nutrition, meat, especially organ mean is important for nutrition, etc.) My own experience with NT was to get really into it for a while and burn myself out on the cooking really quickly. After a while I tried to back off and do things like eat fermented vegetables when I eat preserved meats, buy pre-sprouted flour and ezekial bread, but get most of my carbs from potatoes, corn and white rice. I'm a lot more flexible now, especially if it comes down to a choice of just getting calories in or not getting enough nutrient dense foods.
Jenny – might be the diff between Honolulu and the Big Island. We have that extra importing step to charge for (even if there really is no extra cost)! Or maybe because I tend to get it from Costco – same Maui Gold brand as what they're selling at the markets, but cheaper (ergo same price as mainland Costco). Although when white pineapple comes in season, that's good stuff. Expensive… not available on the mainland… but so much better. Matt, do you miss longan? That's our fave fruit ever!
Pig… wish I could find local pig, not CAFO pig… you gotta have a nice uncle to get local pig! Or we have to get the boys hunting. I miss pig and refuse to buy CAFO pig! But I got you beat on – $5/lb for local grassfed ribeye. I know you don't like grassfed, and my hubby doesn't either (not a tenderness issue, he says it makes him feel funny), but the kids and I enjoy and don't notice a difference.
I can't decide if my yeasty daughter has so many issues because I screwed her over when pregnant, or it's all psychosomatic – she gets "sick" every time she gets mad or sad. Of course, how would she be able to describe to me the symptoms of a yeast infection – no way she knows about them. All I know is, always it's something new and weird with her.
Hey Matt, you said that you started wheezing after eating a ton of fruit on vacay. Didn't you say ate a bunch of coconut? I remember reading on Diet Fucked that coconut can cause wheezing. I ate a few coconut milk shakes some months back and noticed wheezing afterward. Just wondering.
Jenny: It sounds like you and I are in the same place with NT. I love a lot of the concepts and I incorporate whatever is reasonable. I'm experimenting with long fermented sourdough now, but knowing me that's the sort of adventure that lasts for a while before I burn out on it. But I try not to stress about it too much. If anything, the WAPF got me so educated on food I could actually lose my appetite if every food on my plate wasn't "perfect." I'm really aiming for the balance of eating well without obessing over eating well.
Annaheart,
If your goal is cosmetic leanness, then eating a Nourishing traditions diet is not going to help you much with that goal. But, it probably will help you be healthier. Look at what you had for dinner, 2 plates, and then topped it of with milk and cookies! This is how I would tell someone to eat that was intentionally trying to put on as much weight as possible, including fat. Unless you are doing a very high volume and intense exercise routine then that is probably just too much, especially the carbs.
What is your typical daily diet? What is your exercise routine like?
Liz: Yeah stuff like making sourdough should be an adventure, I think, not something you HAVE to do or you can't eat bread. Since I'm obsessive by nature NT was a slippery slope for me.
Matt or anyone else,
I was wondering what difference btwn WAPF and HED people that you would attribute to the WAPF folks being unhealthy?
We have been aiming for HED, but have felt so much freedom over not obsessing on perfection. I would get so overwhelmed with getting everything perfect that I would just give up and go SAD.
Also, does anyone here have experience with LOW cholesterol and HED? My husband and his siblings all have really low cholesterol. My BIL has been told to exercise and eat more fatty fish. Would HED help bring cholesterol up? I haven't read anything in Schwarzbein so far that addresses cholesterol being too low (with ratios being bad too).
My kids seem much more satisfied eating this way too. I didn't realize how much I bought into the carb scare until I started consciously adding potatoes and stuff back in. We even had "Ghetto Potatoes" yesterday. It is basically Potachoes without the salsa. MMM potatoes.
Wow from the sounds of it trying to eat NT-style would drive me completely crazy. I don't think I'll ever be a sprouter or fermenter. I don't really like grains enough to have the patience, except for wheat I suppose. I would definitely be interested in a gluten-free bread but from my understanding the sourdough still contains a good amount of gluten?
Anne at Heart-
I just sent a guest post submission to Cheeseslave about this very concept – how to get yourself to a point where you can properly metabolize all those healthy NT foods. It's not always what you eat, but what your body does with what you eat. Some of the ideas here seem to be really helpful to some and give them that final push over the hill.
Coconut doesn't really cause wheezing, just sugars. One of those weird sugar things. Coconut water can do it too, but not the meat.
Looking forward to the Cheeseslave post.
I don't want to sound like I'm bashing WAPF style eating. It really changed my whole way of looking at food and nutrition so it is a blessing. Unfortunately with my brain, it also a curse. Just standing there gazing blankly into my fridge, trying to decide which enormous kitchen project to take on next made me want to just give up and eat a donut. Lately I've been trying to just use the occasional NT recipe or make stuff from Nourished kitchen's blog.
I think the NT diet is pretty good from a health perspective. But, it is also good for making someone fat. The high fat, high carb diet is great for putting on fat. Like I have mentioned before, the only time I have ever looked fat was when I was eating a high fat high carb diet with lots of raw milk and butter, raw honey, free range eggs, and other NT types of foods. I got leaner and more muscular doing the exact opposite.
Matt,
If you are having that big of problem with sugars, you should drop them until you heal to the point that you are able to handle them. It seems like you may have some adrenal unresolved adrenal issues.
Why don't you just go back to the Schwarzbein ratios? It seems like that is when you had the most positive results in physique and health. You should stick with it until you are on a healthy exercise program and have all your adrenal problems in check, and then modify it a little once you have maintained it for a while.
Schwarzbein ratios gradually undid my initial health gains following it. Too low in carbohydrates.
My greatest health improvements have taken place over the last 6 months, while having the most unfavorable results with body composition. But this is not permanent. I'm only a few months to a year away from having both the body composition and the health that I seek.
Looking forward to reading that guest post Matt,
ITA, if your body is not absorbing and metabolizing the foods you put in to it, then no matter how well you eat it's not going to do you as much good as it should.
That's how I look at GAPS. It's healing my digestion so that in the future I CAN eat all the nutrient dense foods – and actually utilize the nutrients!
Matt,
What negative effects did you get from Schwarzbein? I only remember you posting positive experiences.
I wouldn't worry about the body comp stuff if you are getting healthier. You will probably need to get on a good exercise program to get truly healthy though, and this will help with the body comp.
My best body composition improvements came from eating a low-carb diet and not exercising. I will exercise in the future because I do enjoy it. Never has exercise improved my body composition unless I take it to extreme measures. When I eventually quit doing that, which is destined to happen, my body composition becomes worse than when it started.
Negatives on Schwarzbein long-term:
indigestion, body odor, skin breakouts, irritibility, couldn't sleep through the night, dark circles under eyes, low physical performance, return of asthma, and other things related to adrenal taxation
Kate-
The goal is not really to eat like certain natives that WAP discovered and observed, among others. The goal is to achieve the metabolic state that those people were in due to their excellent diet and lifestyle. Mimicking them can help us make great progress. Some just develop metabolic syndrome from eating a high-fat, high-carb diet like JT mentioned whether it's nutritious or not. The key is to find a way to be able to metabolize whatever you put into the tank (and digest) perfectly. That's what we're trying to uncover here, but I know you know that. Just reiterating.
SUGAR ADDICT,
When I have a sweet craving i make myself a big fatty meal and eat that instead. Doing this really helps and I find that I'm having fewer sugar cravings.
GL
Matt,
If you gained muscle and lost fat without exercise on a low carb diet, then this should be a good pointer for you. I lost a lot of fat low carb, but I lost a lot of muscle too and looked like a concentration camp victim. This is probably a sign that you will do better than me on a lower carb (but not too low) diet and you sugar intolerance suggests the same as well. Sounds like you could bumb the carbs on Schwarzbein a little to find your sweet spot if you started having problems.
You will need to make sure that the exercise program you get on is a good one so that you can get results without the burnout. If you can't maintain exercise as part of your lifestyle over the long term, then there is no point in doing it.
So, people who follow SCD or GAPS — I've been looking into it, and wondering, how do you know that you should go on this diet? Is it symptom based? Is there some kind of test? Or do you just try it, and if you feel better, then you know it's right?
I'm asking because my daughter has issues that just won't clear up (or new ones keep popping up). We did the anti-candida for two months, which really didn't help too much one way or the other. I figure GAPS is pretty similar, but maybe she needs to do something like that for a longer time. We've tried lots of diet permutations, trying to fix her issues. I just don't know, and we don't have the cash to keep going to a naturopath. So if anybody can point me in the right direction, that would be great.
Hey Matt,
Just wanted to report that things are going well with cutting back on intake after my HED fest. Using the recs in 180 Metabolism as a guide for minimums on protein and carbs, I'm losing about a pound a week by doing 4 days a week at approx 1400 cals, 2 days at approx 2000, and having 1 blowout HED day (during which I can't seem to eat more than 3000 without exploding).
So far temps are holding steady and I'm feeling pretty good. As a former low-carber, I'm still surprised that I don't need tons of fat and protein to feel full. It seems the adequate protein/more carbs thing is key. I was constantly hungry on low-carb eating tons of protein and lots and lots of fat. I'm so FREAKING HAPPY to be able to eat sweet potatoes, rice, milk, oranges, and *sandwiches* on real bread (Alvarado sprouted sourdough). I think I was starving for carbs.
Thanks Lieta-
Doing a little HED changes everything. It changes how you respond to food, period. Anyone who thinks they are carbohydrate intolerant has no idea just how easy that is to overcome.
JT-
I'm doing much better eating more carbs than having any kind of restriction in that arena. I'm going to keep it up, and have seen clearly that I'm moving in the right direction. Exercise will always be part of my life and is part of an overall healthy lifestyle. For me – I've done too much aerobic in the past to ever be able to use it for weight loss without rebound. Even Tom Venuto understands this when he references the inability of Aerobics instructors to lose weight. My body adapts very quickly to high quantities of exercise, as I spent many years of my life doing Lance Armstrong quantities of exercise.
Hawaii Girl-
"Diet permutations." I'm stealing that phrase for sure. I wouldn't strain your daughter's food choices too much. If she was my kid, I'd feed her quality food, try not to worry about it too much unless it turned into something more serious, and wait until she hit puberty and got a good surge of grown-up hormones for her health problems to start to reside. Puberty did wonders for me. I would build her diet primarily around meat though. Kids do best on meat.
Diet permutations is all we do, and you're welcome to it.
Matt, you have never had a child whining at you 24/7 about problems!! I don't think I can wait for hormones to even things out… I've tried the "Life IS pain" approach (and you can go Long Kiss Goodnight or Princess Bride on that one), but it ain't working. She is an avowed carnivore, so meat's no problem.
"The high fat, high carb diet is great for putting on fat." In my N=1, that's pure bullshit.
"Some just develop metabolic syndrome from eating a high-fat, high-carb diet like JT mentioned whether it's nutritious or not. The key is to find a way to be able to metabolize whatever you put into the tank (and digest) perfectly."
Wait a minute, I'm confused! Does this mean that HED _could_ lead to metabolic syndrome, then? Is changing the way you metabolize and digest the food is a function primarily of quantity? Is it the ratios that are important? Or what?!
When susceptible lab animals are fed a high-fat, high-carbohydrate diet they become insulin resistant and obese.
However, if you increase their metabolic rates their insulin levels fall, triglycerides fall, weight falls, blood sugar falls, appetite falls, etc.
Morgan Spulock obviously wasn't doing well on an HED, but his food was not very nutritious, contained tons of HFCS, trans fat, and PUFA. Eating starches, saturated fats rich in MCT's like coconut and butyric acid like butterfat, highly nutritious food, etc. changes the scenario completely.
This post by Stephan Guyenet shows clearly that the kingpin in all of this is the metabolism…
http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2009/12/butyric-acid-ancient-controller-of.html
Hawaiigirl,
I didn't suspect digestion issues in myself – like I wasn't constipated or anything like that.
The only reason I knew was because my ND did a test that showed I wasn't absorbing protein.
Then when I looked into it more and connected the dots, it started making sense.
My symptoms were not being able to lose weight after having my daughter (10 months old), retaining a lot of fluid, hair falling out, eczema, joint aches, muscles aches, fatigue and exhaustion and bad bad bad headaches that were ruining my life.
What is your daughters history like?
Has she taken a lot of antibiotics, had a lot of ear infections?
Also, think about your history….birth control pills, yeast infections, antibiotic use, SAD, environmental toxins….
all sorts of things mess up the gut flora.
HTH….
I had very similar experience as you Matt with Schwarzbein. Your blog has helped me a lot in loosening up about carbs – and Ray Peat's work also re: fruit. I don't know why you seem to think she is so great. She sells tons of expensive supplements as well – which I bought into – and only felt worse – and she is so bossy about what you must do and mustn't do … (although all these writers are similar in that regard). Her advice (and others) on eating balanced (protein carb fat, etc) meals works for me – but sometimes enjoying an orange on its own is a lovely experience – I don't always WANT a piece of string cheese too … and no, you're not going to drop dead or age 40 years overnight or even feel terrible if you just enjoy it on its own!
Kate, that's interesting. I was suspecting starch, not protein. Now you've given me another worry!
My poor daughter is screwed by my bad health since birth and no nutrition during pregnancy (I barfed the whoooole time). I've always been fairly anti-antibiotics, but diet was SAD, sugary SAD. I don't think I was born with functioning adrenal glands, and I suspect the same for her… We've been eating "clean" and gotten rid of almost everything toxic (I'd live in a grass hut if I could) for two years, lots of fermented foods, low sugar and fruit for about five months.
The boys seem to be doing well, but with her, it's one thing after another. Almost always skin related. And definite adrenal fatigue. I'm able to intuit and attack my own issues, but with her, I'm stuck. It doesn't help she's a bit of a hypochondriac, and I strongly suspect many things are psychosomatic (issues get intolerable when she's upset, a very strong mind-body connection). Anyhow… it's hard enough fixing my own health, never mind hubby and kids and dogs…! (Can you tell it's getting to me today?)
Hawaiigirl,
It sounds like you may want to look in to it further. If you read the GAPS book she does a really good explanation of explaining the mind-body connection and claims the protocol can be used to help schizophrenia and bi-polar.
Sounds like you're on the right path for sure though.
BTW, I'm right there with you on the mother guilt thing, I barfed through out my whole pregnancy and had to have a c-section. I guess we just have to do what we can now!
Hawaii girl: The Gabriel Method is available for kids. Not that she needs to loose weight but if you suspect a psychosymatic connection, that might be something to look into. He is very much about letting go of anxiety and embracing healthy food and positive thinking.
I'll have to look at Gabriel from that angle. I have never seen any person whose body is so obviously controlled by her emotions. On the other hand, I'm more than willing to believe that her emotions are controlled by her food and gut flora. After all, if eating a banana used to make Matt cry… She's tired of diet permutations, though! We're finally eating in a way that seems to be BOTH satisfying and nourishing… maybe…
Maybe I'll just have to spring for a visit to a naturopath to narrow things down. We have two on the island, and the first one didn't impress me. I hope the other one is better.
I thought Gabriel's story about how he would hold his stress in (and get fat and sick) while his business partner would would cuss and freak out and let it all out (but stay skinny) very interesting. I wonder how much truth that holds.
Dinosaur-
She's a 3 squares a day, don't overexercise, eat real foods, get plenty of sleep, neither fats, nor carbohydrates, nor calories, nor protein is bad for you, don't consume drugs kind of gal.
That's good enough to get an A when it comes to the big picture. Small tangents like not eating things by themselves, carb counting, damaged fats in cheese, allergy testing, and other crap that she's gotten into later is obviously dumb. But not so dumb or center stage in her work to overshadow the highlights.
But we've gone well beyond Schwarzbein here at this point.
Hawaii girl,
If you haven't already heard of Sensory Processing issues you should check out a book called The Out of Sync Child. Your daughter sounds like a mixture of my daughter and one of my sons. We found out both have some sensory processing issues. This is all related to the Autism Spectrum Disorders which GAPS addresses (haven't read it but am familiar with it).
It has always seemed to me that my daughter's issues were psychosomatic (I mean really, you can't feed yourself b'c you skinned your knee?), but our occupational therapist explained it to me like this: kids like this have a sensory cup. They may start the day with that cup half full depending on how much sleep they've had, what they've eaten, etc. Then each thing they encounter adds an ounce to that cup. It will eventually overflow and everything falls apart.
We have days that start out with that cup all the way full. Sleep is HUGE for us and she requires a lot of it.
So my daughter is sensory sensitive. These are kids who experience things more than others…more pain, discomfort, etc. Clothes feel funny, she can't stand to be dirty. My son is sensory seeking. Our OT said it is sort of like walking around with a snow suit on. If anyone touches you it feels as if it is through that suit. So you will find him rolling across the floor or smearing something sticky on his face. They are two sides of the same coin.
I'm not saying this is THE answer, but it may be part of the puzzle for you. We did find dietary changes helped in combination with OT and just an awareness on my part of what is going on.
Trust me I feel your pain!
Great comment Jamie. Thanks.
In my opinion, especially with children, 98% of mental/behavioral issues are physical, not mental, in origin.
But since I've always been a wreck eating sugar without starch, as opposed to starch without sugar – and knowing what I know between the mind/blood sugar connection, and having read Body, Mind, and Sugar (Abrahamson) and some of the work that stemmed from that, I'm not always quick to send people to GAPS in lieu of a very low-sugar diet.
Experimentation is the only way to really find out I think – on an individual basis.
Jamie, that's really interesting – and very plausible. Extreme sensitivity to clothes/sheets is definitely present! Anything being "off" causes a major meltdown – which leads to a "health issue". What dietary changes helped for you? I absolutely believe food affects mind (else I wouldn't be here!). And my little boy is a sensory seeker… is it a boy/girl thing?
Of course, I'm really opposed to children having a syndrome or a label, so I tend to avoid learning about diagnoses like that. Everybody's got some kind of syndrome and they use it as their excuse for everything. It becomes a lifelong thing. I'd rather believe it's a temporary problem that is cured by proper diet – and not give it a name. Just my POV.
Matt, I think you're right about experimentation… my problem goes back to a) I have to keep track of everybody's issues and b) it's not my body so I have a harder time figuring it out. Sigh…
I need to find a blog/website populated by people of perfect long-term health, so I can feel there is hope! Are there really this many people with such bad health? Or am I just focused on and therefore finding that because poor health is our top concern?
Hawaii girl-
I think most people finally gravitate here once they've ruled out everything else. By the time you make it to 180, you're getting close to the end of the line. Most people here jacked themselves up doing extreme diets, and are looking to fix themselves. Your average 180 follower had health problems which led to stupid diets and even more health problems. The typical participant here has been a long time fruitarian, or zero-carber, or all of the above.
But there are plenty of people seeing improvements here and moving toward the end goal, which is eating whatever you want and maintaining a healthy metabolic state. After all, it's only been a year since this site departed from being a mostly low-carb biased site.
Ah Matt, you keep me sane. You keep up all the sorting and sifting to make sense of it all, and we'll all sit back and bask in your shiny-perfect-health-glory.
And when you get it all figured out, you can get your healing touch Jesus-effect commune started. Soon we'll all be raising a super-race of highly-nourished, cold-hardy, rapidly propagating (due to the high sex drive) humans – with purdy teeth of course – and we'll rule the world! Mwah ha ha ha haaaa. And vacation in Thailand.
Jamie: Thanks so much for that comment. My kids are in pretty decent health, probably because I had them young before I really screwed up my body. But I've noticed little sensory issues like you spoke of, but I never thought of them that way. Thanks for giving me a different perspective on my kids' little quirks. It really helps.
Lorelei: Oh, yes. Clearly we are going to rule the world one day. If you can't convert 'em, just outlive 'em. ;)
Hawaiigirl,
I had written a lovely comment that probably would have just bored everyone to tears regarding diagnosis pros and cons, diet/gut and therapy for neurological issues and my battery died. Now I must sleep to heal those adrenals.
To answer your one question about diet. We did CF/Sf and then removed gluten. With each change we saw improvement and then relapse. We were told it was like peeling back the layers of an onion to eliminate all the sensitivities. You remove one and another emerges. Quite frustrating. My kids were always hungry and losing weight (on the thin side to start). So I said forget it and about that time found 180. My focus right now is healing me so I can help them, though I do believe they are benefiting.
Matt-I agree that psychosomatic issues have a gut base, but I also believe that parents in particular need tools to deal with those issues in the meantime AND once you figure out gut issues there is catch up to do b'c of years lost with processing gone awry. Merely my opinion based on what I've learned…don't know if someone who actually knows something would agree:)
JT- a little late here, but I don't normally eat that much food. I am following the high everything diet I thought. I mean, I remember a part (in Matt's book) about if you feel hungry, eat again even if you've just eaten dinner. So, I'm trying to raise my body fat setpoint. And keep in mind, I have 4 very little girls, and don't always have the ability to eat something perfectly healthy. I make homemade treats for them, because it's better than storebought junk, and if that's the quickest thing to grab when hunger strikes, sometimes i have to.
The point is for me to get over the guilt feeling of eating something "bad" as well (also following Jon Gabriel too) So yes, I'm trying to gain a little weight, in hopes that it will do what Matt said it would.
Typically I eat oatmeal, eggs, potatoes, homemade toast etc. for breakfast…leftovers for lunch, which is balanced carb/starch, protein and fat, some kefir, dinner is the same. But if I crave something, I eat it. I use coconut oil and butter to cook with and am trying to eat the low end of Omega 666, LOL.
Anyways, just answering your question.
oh, my name is Jessica.
Hawaii girl,
My oldest daughter (now 7)had sensory issues. By that I mean she was very attached to me and had hard time separating from me. She couldn't deal with loud places, she would totally freak out when we had to cut her nails etc. (she was also diagnosed with Trisomy 9 and doesn't talk much yet)
Anyways, we heard about something called Brain Gym. It seems odd, but it's basically exercise you can do to teach your brain new things. For instance, when she was flipping out, I could press certain points on her feet, or sit her in my lap facing me while I rocked her side to side and she would calm down. I would push certain points on her chest and navel, and this would help her balance. But, lots of people, athletes and the like, do these things for poor concentration or stress etc. with great success. My daughter would come to me with her hands held out because she wanted me to push on her hands. She knew it helped her.
If your daughter is having issues mentally, then if she learns how to do exercises to calm down or refocus, then maybe it would help you know what's a real physical issue and what's tied to her mental state.
Just an idea.
Anneatheart and Hawaiigirl-
We to found effective ways of calming down the sensory system. Body brushing and joint compressions have proven helpful for us. These tools can be so helpful in the day to day. Plus knowing it is very real to them can help you see it through their eyes.
Jessica-
You don't necessarily have to gain weight. How each person responds is different. The key is getting your weight set point below your weight. That can be done by raising your weight and/or lowering your set point. Several people have raised body temperature without gaining an ounce – and even losing weight. Some quite rapidly.
Nutritional yeast has a HUGE advantage over brewer's yeast – it's actually edible. ;)
WRT ice cream, if you have a super blender like a Vitamix, you just throw in real heavy cream and some frozen berries, peaches, etc and whiz until it freezes. If you've been off sugar a while, this will be sweet enough without any sugar. You can only make as much as you want at the time, if you stick it in the freezer it becomes hard as a rock unless you add a bit of vodka or something to it. It's quite decadent even without sugar.
WRT to raw milk, you can make raw yogurt, just not heating too much. I like it better than milk. And better than kefir, kefir was always just too darned sour. It's not like store-bought yogurt, not as thick, but you can drain through a coffee filter if you want thick yogurt. I'm OK with drinking yogurt myself.
For actual milk, I never liked milk itself much either, though loving all other dairy. I make a chocolate syrup with unsweetened cocoa, water, vanilla and stevia that makes milk yummier for me. But I've never attempted to drink more than a gallon a week, and usually half of that as yogurt.
As far as quitting sugar entirely, IME, Atkins had the right idea with induction. Just cut out carbs entirely for a week, and you'll feel like crap, but then you bounce back and can add back in the good carbs. Personally, I like to roast a whole turkey when I need to withdraw – just eat turkey and mayo until it's gone. For some of us, it really IS like a drug withdrawal and the faster you get it over with, the faster you feel well again.
I never crave sugar unless I've eaten it lately. Small amounts of fruit, a cup of berries or melon balls, a kiwi, a half pomegranate or peach, those are OK. I might put a TB of molasses in a recipe for flavor, over 6 servings or so. But eat a few cookies and the addiction is right back.