Here’s a compelling low-carb/paleo adventure from a 180 Member and frequent blog participant (my responses in red):
My low-carb story starts a long time ago. Knowing what I know now from reading the research of McCarrison and Pottenger on multi-generation metabolic decline I know it started at least with my grandmother and potentially before. My grandmother was raised on margarine and jam on white bread, vegetables cooked to a mush and ice cream by the pint. She lived that way all her life and raised my Mom that way. My Mom tried better with me, but there was still a lot of baked goods at home and I was “the fat kid” by age 3.
Good insights. I agree completely. I’ve come across lots of overweight people who seem frustrated that ?grandma ate chocolate, smoked cigarettes, and drank coffee everyday and lived to be 92,? while they are overweight and can’t ?breathe air without gaining weight (Schwarzbein). Grandma could do that because of the fantastic health that prior generations had from their largely unrefined diet that glorified meat, fat, starch, and calories instead of shrieking at the sound of them being annunciated. Times have changed. Granda and mom have broken that chain of tradition and started us on the road to perdition (grandpa and dad have too of course, and their contributions are important also).
Then in the summer or 1999, when I was 20 years old, I read Neanderthin by Ray Audette and how he cleared up so many of his health problems kicking out non-paleo foods. I was determined to not be the fat kid any more and lived off cheese, beef jerky, eggs, nuts and vegetables for quite some time. Immediately my energy levels improved and I started working out. As this was June I acquired a summer job as a YMCA camp counselor and so I hit the YMCA at 5:30 AM each morning to work out for two hours before I had to report in for work. I lost a lot of weight and became really fit. I also got pretty seriously addicted to coffee.
This is a classic case of not only cutting out junk and feeling the better for it, but also getting that good adrenal surge from being on the low-carb side of things. Caffeine and intense exercise made you feel even better, even higher on adrenaline. Schwarzbein is right on when she states that things that feel good do so because they are stimulating. She states that it feels good when you’re breaking down, but people don’t understand that you have to rest and rebuild or you destroy yourself. I agree completely. Caffeine’s sudden appeal to you is some serious foreshadowing of what’s to come.
It all “worked” though and that September I met the girl who years later would agree to marry me. Her first impression of me was that I was a football player. Me! Can you believe it? The former computer geek, D&D nerd and Model United Nations champ (I represented the United States at the Harvard Symposium) could do 20 weighted chin-ups or sprint 100 meters without breathing hard. I was convinced Ray Audette was a prophet of some sort and I preached the gospel.
Of course she agreed to marry you. You sound like the man, but note that football players have a life expectancy of 55. Looks like health on the outside, but much strain and drain on the inside.
After that first most hard-core year though I sort of rested on my laurels and did the “best” paleo I could given the constraints of college cafeteria food. I lost the urge to workout once I cut out drinking a pot of coffee a day and eventually stopped going to the gym. I gained weight slowly throughout college but not too bad.
Mmmm, nothing like the body kicking in and taking some time to rest after years of intense adrenal demand.
Fast forward several years. I’ve graduated, worked at Morgan Stanley, quit and been through law school and now I weigh 225 lbs/36″ waist. I don’t want to know what my body fat % is. I’ve fallen off the paleo wagon several times and half-heartedly gotten back on, but I never again saw the results I saw in the summer of ’99. At best I would yo-yo down to ~200 lbs / 34″ waist and then gain it all back after six months. I never regained the energy to work out at 5:30 AM for two hours of burpees, pushups, chin-ups and sprints. I was losing my faith in paleo/low-carb.
A restricted diet is still a diet and still can have the yo-yo effect, even if it’s comprised of healthy foods.
So that brings us to the Fall of 2008 when my dentist told me I had five cavities after not having any tooth problems since Middle School. I’ve lost my faith in paleo, but I had the inkling from reading Ray’s book (where he talked about paleolithic man having perfect teeth) that there had to be a way to cure my teeth that did not involve more fillings. I still cruised the low-carb/paleo blogs for lack of alternatives (the low-fat, vegan and “standard American Diet” are clearly all losers for well documented reasons, but let me take a moment to say that Drs. Eades and De Vany are awfully arrogant in the Tower of Certainty in which they reside. Pricks) but my search via Google for teeth improvement led me to Whole Health Source and then to Weston A. Price. I had to read his book. It was like lightning to my brain and I’m convinced the “missing vitamins” and Omega-3/6 ratio have been my shortcoming. I get back on the paleo horse with the vigor of three Wyld Stallions but this time with vitamin supplements and a laser focus on proper fat ratios.
Like a Wyld Stallion?! ?Excellent? pop culture reference, complete with proper spelling. A+. The phrase Tower of Certainty will also one day be repeated. Price’s book is still the best of the best. No discussion of health is complete without acknowledgment of that work. Whole Health Source is also outstanding, minus Stephen’s apparent nemesis ? an infatuation with paleo nutrition/Cordain. By the way, those tooth problems are irrefutable evidence of having zigged when ya shoulda zagged. Anyone with dental issues should probably stop whatever it is they are doing immediately and try something else.
We eat fermented brown rice and oatmeal, buy the highest quality milk, eggs and cream we can find, and cook everything at home without additives. Meat is cooked low and slow. We toss all the old vegetable oils and buy coconut oil by the half-gallon through the mail. And something works too. My cavities go away, my mood improves and my wife Wendy’s skin clears up. Wendy had some tooth pain that had been bother her for months disappear within a week. Further, after three years of trying without success, we get pregnant after just one month of eating “the Weston Price way.” Wendy responds even better to the diet than I do, and even though she gains net weight from the pregnancy over the next six months it’s not much weight by “normal” standards and she visibly slims down on her face and extremities. I feel better but don’t lose any weight. Wendy’s digestion is perfect, but it’s been that way her entire life. Mine is average. (Wendy really is just healthier than I at some fundamental level, no doubt caused by the very poor circumstances her parents were raised in before coming to this country – all they could afford in the old country was rice, sweet potatoes, vegetables, fish and eggs. No sugar or vegetable oils.)
Anyone paying attention to this? I hope so.
But then some time this spring Matt I see a comment from you at Whole Health Source and start reading your blog. I become a member and read your e-books. Simultaneously I found my way to Heart Scan Blog where Dr. William Davis is talking up the benefits of desiccated thyroid as well. I hit research mode and read up on McCarrison, Barnes and Page. Good stuff. I take my temperature orally for two weeks to get the average numbers – 96.6 at 5:30 AM and 97.3 in the afternoon. Resting pulse is 85~89. Five months of Weston Price eating haven’t fixed that. So I give your recommendations a shot, go for the High Everything Diet (minus sugar and vegetable oils) and screw the calorie counts. I start treating butter like a condiment and add baked sweet potatoes back into the diet, but this time with obscene amounts of sour cream and bacon topping.
Not healed entirely, but those five months have put you on the right track. McCarrison, Barnes, and Page: good stuff indeed.
I have to say, your HED did not sit with my digestion at first. I got seriously backed up, but I guess it was a transitional issue since it cleared up after a couple weeks and later became better than I had ever been before. I’d been a once every 2-3 days man before that, but became 1-2 times per day on HED once through those first several weeks. Energy levels are off the charts and I start working out not because I feel I “ought” to but simply because I am over-flowing with the urge to use muscles. I start sprinting around the house while doing laundry and the dog is chasing me. I start going to the gym 2-3 times per week for short intense workouts. Sort of a beginner’s CrossFit, with weightlifting tips from Mark Rippetoe. I never work out to exhaustion though, just work up a good sweat and work off my excess energy so I can concentrate at work.
Predictable results ? softer more frequent stools and a stomach that can handle more complex meals and greater quantity of food, and the excess energy is seeking outlets other than fat tissue. I will say that high-calorie eating with anaerobic exercise is the ultimate fattener for me ? perhaps because of cortisol. It’s much harder to gain with mild, light physical activity, and the time period from gaining to the plateau to the drop in weight seems to be shorter.
I start gaining weight though and my body temp does not improve. I go from 230 to 237 in one month and I’m still an even 96.6 in the morning and 97.3 in the afternoon. I don’t get the shivers any more (like I did for the last four years) and feel warmer overall, but objectively there is no improvement. I start taking Nutri-Meds, 2-a-day at the start and 5-a-day by the end of the bottles I’d ordered. No temperature change and I weigh in at 242. Only two pairs of 38″ pants still fit, and barely.
I certainly don’t want anyone thinking that increasing calories on an unrestricted diet results in some kind of instant weight loss. No way. Weight often increases ? both fat and muscle, just as human experiments on force-feeding have shown. The weight gain is just temporary though, just like the weight lost on a low-calorie diet is temporary. To focus on short-term weight gain and not feeling and looking better is to miss the big picture ? healing can take many months ? a year perhaps. It’s a tough thing for an overweight person to face, it takes courage, it takes patience, but I believe it is the path to recovery.
So, with regret Matt, I drop off of HED and just go straight high-fat-ketogenic. No carbs at all. That was four weeks ago and I’m down to 236~8 (depending on the morning) and my last two pairs of pants fit better even if none of the 36″-ers do. I gain weight if I eat even a little oatmeal or sweet potato now. I’ve been to a local doctor about getting prescription strength desiccated Thyroid and got blood taken for lipids and TSH/T4/T3 last Saturday. I don’t have the results in yet. The doc is sort of conventional though and I’m just hoping I can twist his arm into going with Naturethroid or Westthroid rather than a T4 synthetic (and apparently Forest Labs reformulated Armor Thyroid this Spring and hypothyroid sufferers are reporting a resurgence of symptoms on the new formula, to watch out for that). If I can’t convince him I’ll dump his ass and find someone else, but that means weeks or months more of waiting. It’s very frustrating.
That’s my story so far.
Ketogenic? Oh boy. Don’t let the six pounds you’ve lost in the last 4 weeks neuter your attempts at really getting to the root of the problem. You have a chance to overcome lifetimes of dietary and lifestyle fouls that have culminated within you. Eating the Weston A. Price way was a big leap forward for you. Your teeth healed. You took a giant leap in the right direction. I believe that focusing in on the metabolism is another key that can open the next door, but don’t get desperate. Your weight cycles have spanned years. What happens in a few months is inconsequential over the long haul. I think it’s probably way too early to pound thyroid, especially considering that you were showing multiple signs of steady progress in the digestion and energy category.
My ideas for you would be to cut the exercise down to stretching and walking, lightly ? while continuing to eat as much nutritious food as you can get in you until you complete the process. Completing the process involves going full-throttle until weight gain ceases, hunger starts to subside, and muscle starts replacing body fat spontaneously. Be persistent. Also keep in mind that just taking thyroid, even if it brings your temps up, will not necessarily cure you of your weight issue.
For now, step one would be to fix the carbohydrate sensitivity that ketosis has given you by eating a diet that is very high in carbohydrates by percentage. That means displacing some fat and protein with carbohydrate calories for up to a few weeks before getting more balanced again.
Your story has many parallels to my own adventures with a reduced-carbohydrate diet, which I will post in a future Carb Wars episode. Thanks again for your story, and best of luck. We’ll all be anxiously awaiting to hear what your future dietary escapades entail.
If YOU have a low-carb story to share, with great or tragic results or both, send an e-mail to firstname.lastname@example.org and we’ll get it up on the blog!
Even Eades himself blogged about "Why is low carb harder the second time around" (http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/low-carb-diets/why-is-low-carb-harder-the-second-time-around/) Blamed it on Aging and Lack of commitment. Ha!
"When I put out the call for what people wanted to read about on this blog in 2009, numerous folks commented that they would like to know why it seems so much more difficult to successfully follow a low-carb diet the second or third time around. Over the years I’ve noticed this phenomenon in myself and in many others whom I have treated or advised, so it’s truly a subject worthy of exploration."
Explore it we shall!!!
Matt, I don't see why you're seemingly anti resistance training. Cortisol only becomes excessive if you do marathon sessions of it.
You strike me as someone who'd be into Darden/Jones HIT.
Matt, you seem to focus on balancing hormone levels. To me there seem to be two ways of 'dealing' with homeostasis. The first is provide your body with unchanging stimulus: 3 balanced meals a day with minimal exercise and stress. The second is to assume that your body will achieve homesostasis despite nonstaic stimulus: vary your macronutrient ratios, fast, feast, and exercise sporadically and at random.
People seem to have the most success eating natural foods. Most of nutrition seems to be determining what is natural for humans to eat. Shouldn't meal frequency fall under this category as well. 2 meals a day seems to be the norm, not 3.
I've been thinking a lot about gut bacteria and would like to hear your take on something like the Hygiene Hypothesis. As someone with allergies myself, I've just started making my own Kefir (raw milk) and eating the occasional raw steak (unfrozen).
Your blog is in many ways an excellent counterpoint to the low carb sites. Most of the really successful low carbers, I have noticed, don't actually advocate eating no carbs at all. The magic, perhaps random number is 50g a day, but I suspect that in many cases dieters are eating much more than that. Richard at Freetheanimal, for instance, has been slowly reintroducing potatoes and rice to his diet.
A lot of people initially feel better on vegetarian and vegan diets, only to see failing health later. I'm sure that you and Schwarzbein (I've read the book) would say that this is the result of overstimulating adrenals. Maybe so. I've always suspect that when people switch to vegetarian/vegan, they lower their caloric input, and end up burning their own fat stores. Since fat apparently burns 'cleaner' than carbs, this would make them feel good. Someone like Peter at hyperlipid would then say, hey, why not eat nothing but fat so that I'm burning fat all the time. Sounds pretty reasonable to me, except that many people live long happy healthy lives eating a good and variable mix of carbs, fats, and proteins. If you works for them, why couldn't it work for everyone. For those looking to lose weight, why not eliminate processed foods. Doesn't seem like much could go wrong with meat, potatoes, rice, butter, kefir, and beer.
The norm is 3 meals per day, not 2. I don't know where you came up with that. 1 meal is called breakfast, the other is called lunch, and the third is called dinner. These are traditional meals and meal times in most cultures and therefore presumably ideal.
Avoiding refined sugar, and sometimes alcohol and caffeine is enough for most people to have excellent health. For some, it's not enough to allow full recuperation.
50 grams of carbs per day drained on me until I finally increased them. The tooth pain was intense. It didn't matter how much butter, liver, bone broth, cheese, eggs, and shellfish I ate. That was too low in carbs to be optimal in the current state I was in.
Vegetarians probably feel better at first because a low-protein diet is catabolic. Insulin levels plummet, weight is lost, inflammation subsides. Problems arise when the negative consequences of a low-protein, low-fat soluble vitamin diet catch up with them. This happens mostly on vegan diets. A vegetarian diet with fresh milk and other dairy products has proven itself historically to be quite excellent as a diet, with meat only for rare occasions. In fact, most dairy cultures rarely ate meat. It was something served on special occasions.
Vegetarian diets are of course made worse by relying mostly on white bread, sugary foods, and stimulants. This is a much more typical vegetarian diet. This too feels great at first. That dark chocolate, mate, cacao, coffee, and morning smoothie with spirulina (all typical staples of a vegetarain headed for disaster) give you quite a lift – and are destroying you in the process.
As far as the exercise is concerned – there's nothing wrong with it. But there are times when it's appropriate and times when it is not. When trying to rehab burnt adrenals and create a calorie surplus, I don't find intense bouts of exercise to be very useful. Later on, when the body is healthy, exercise is fantastic. Still, personal experience communicates to me quite emphatically that walking is far superior to intense weight training in terms of overall health and function.
I just recently discovered your blog and I’m reading old posts, so I don’t know if you still monitor the comments here, but it would be great if I could get an answer!
My question is: What is your main problem with vegetarian and vegan diets? And how do you define vegetarian and vegan diets? I guess it wouldn’t be fair to throw a low fat raw vegan and a junk food high fat high sugar vegan into one pot when critizising their diets ;)
I’ve been a vegetarian since I was 13 (lots of cheese, candy, processed junk food etc – basically the same stuff as before, minus the meat). I became vegan two years ago, and at the same time reduced calories to lose weight. I lost weight on vegetarian and vegan diets, but I also gained weight easily on both. I built musle on a vegan diet… I know from tracking my nutrient intake for extended periods that I easily manage to eat 15% of my calories from protein (at least 1g/kg body weight – which is slightly more than is officially recommended) – without protein powders, soy or wheat protein, beans etc. And I eat about 30% of calories from fat. I never cared about macronutrients, so that is my “natural” way of eating, what my body craves.
After reading lots of books, blogs, articles etc about what is “perfect” nutrition for humans it seems to me that there are as many opinions as there are “experts”, and every single on of them thinks their way is the only way (and none of them seem truly healthy or happy). The only consistent message that I have found is not to eat highly processed foods, especially refined sugars. That’s the only common factor in all the diets that claim to heal people of virtually every health problem. Could it really be that simple?
I don’t recommend always avoiding highly processed foods. I’ve worked with lots of people who have improved their health by adding them back in.
As far as my views on a vegetarian/vegan diet, I’m currently wrapping up a book on that very topic that should be out in the first week or two of April.
From what I've read hunter gatherers eat a meal at noon and then a large dinner.
I'm all for the idea that low carb is not necessary, that it may even be a bad idea, but how do you explain the groups that traditionally ate low carb? It seems as if Ray Peat thinks the Inuit got away with it by consuming thryoid glands.
There do seem to be some examples or low-carb / paleo going wrong. But they seem to be the exception. This last example, for instance, would probably not qualify as a paleo diet. He seems to have been all over the place. A pot of coffee?–I mean there's obviously something wrong.
The plantspoisonsrottenstuff girl, for instance, was not eating a low carb diet. She was eating a fail safe diet that included white bread and milk.
Why are you so sure higher calories/more carbs will boost metabolism over the long term? It worked for you but that doesn’t mean it will work for everybody. What if someone just gains weight and then some more and more etc. I recall a story I read on AV-sceptics about a woman who followed AV’s advice until she was grossly obese. AV told her all the way: "That’s just detox" (or whatever).
When there is no metabolic resonse (or just a little) to rasing your caloric intake after a couple of month why should you expect more of a response later on? Healing takes time, OK, but it should be a gradual process. I would expect some kind of dose/response-relationship.
What would have to happen for you to say: OK, that’s not the way to go, or at least not the only thing to change. After a year, after 2? 10? After gaining 10 pounds, 30? 100? As an investor/trader you should know that there has to be a time to cut your losses in case you’re wrong (even if you’re pretty sure you are right).
Can you really raise your sub par metabolism to normal with more calories? I’d say the jury is still out.
There's a simple trick to making resistance training work — at least for me: save some for the next set.
Suppose you were a workman tasked to move x pounds of stuff y feet over the course of an hour. You would never take a "set" to failure! To do so would drain your reserves and your ability to recover. (Fredrick Taylor made sure that workers paced themselves in his imfamous work on time and motion.)
Today, the vogue is one set to maximum failure, followed by days of serious inaction to recover. When I tried this methodology, not only did it take days to recover physically, but days to recover mentally as well. I quit doing one set to failure because it interfered with computer programming.
Back in the pre-steroid days bodybuilding literature said "train, don't strain." People built muscle with multi-set workouts that could last hours. See Steve Reeve's book.
I don't have time for such long workouts these days, but I can say that multi-set workouts below the point of failure allow much faster recovery. The endorphins are great as well as the next-day's energy level. The main knock is the muscle soreness if you start in too fast.
Carl, I'm interested in your post. I was under the impression that it was with the advent of steroid use that extended multi-set workouts really took off. HIT and Body by Science routines are an understandable reaction to the 2 hours a day 5 days a week training that is typical today.
I really don't understand why Brock, after seeing low carb doesn't work for him, goes for a ketogenic diet… which is even more extreme!
About Matt's advice to eat more calories.. it would seem only logical it increases the metabolic rate, just as calorie restriction reduces it… why wouldn't it work both ways? Probably such advice has the biggest effect on people who have been dieting or eating very badly, but anyway that's quite common these days…
And if low carbing (or some other diet) can take years to rear its ugly head, why expect proper eating to work in a matter of months?
But I wonder how important are micronutrients as opposed to macronutrients and calories… Wouldn't a lack of micronutrients also send our bodies into starvation mode?
I went back to ketogenic because I panicked at the weight gain and it was my "safety blanket." It was what I understood and had "not worked but not killed me either" for years. But Matt was right – it was a mistake. Within a week of sending that email I was already feeling a drop off in energy levels and my digestion started to revert to its prior form. Even the initial weight loss I got from it was given back. It was only a couple days ago though that I realized I was reacting out of fear instead of careful thought and began to introduce a few carbs into the diet again. I had some milk, and some butter spread of rye crackers.
Today (just before reading Matt's post) I figured I could handle some carbs went and got myself a big lunch that included ground lamb, deviled eggs, rice and sweet potatoes (they spiked the yams with maple syrup though, bastards). I no doubt set back my own cause by a month or more though with the tom foolery. Cest la vie.
Glad you liked the Bill & Ted reference. I loved the pop cultural references in your books so I wanted to return the favor. I knew you'd get it. :-)
I'll take your advice on the walking too. The time commitment won't be any different and I'm sure my dog would enjoy some company in the evenings. Maybe I can even get the wife to join me! They say long walks spur labor and she's definitely "more than done, thank you" with this pregnancy thing.
You have a good point (though who is "AV"?). Even Melvin Page found that some people, no matter how well fed, always needed glandular support. I hope I'm not one of them but I may be. I've gotten a prescription for desiccated thyroid for now though I haven't filled it yet. The Broda Barnes Institute has a good paper for finding the correct dose and also weaning yourself off it as your metabolism heals (if it ever does). I plan on following their suggestions.
Be excellent to each other,
Carl M. Its been a few years since I graduated with an industrial engineering degree, but from what I remember (including the google searching I just did) Taylor was anything but concerned about the worker's well being. He didnt set a careful pace to make sure workers didnt work until failure, he set a specific pace along with specific movements and steps to maximize efficiency and minimize mistakes. In fact there were many worker strikes that occurred while he was in command because of the work and pace he set. Just thought you may want to find another example. Not trying to be condescending.
Oh and heres a good quote on the subject:
[In regards to only one of eight men could load the amount of steel Taylor wanted them to loan in a day]
?With the very best of intentions? the other seven out of eight men were physically unable to work at this pace. Now the one man in eight who was able to do this work was in no sense superior to the other men who were working on the gang. He merely happened to be a man of the type of the ox, ? no rare specimen of humanity, difficult to find and therefore very highly prized. On the contrary, he was a man so stupid that he was unfitted to do most kinds of laboring work, even.
San Dimas High School Football Rules!!!
Actually the scene in which Napolean eats himself silly with ice cream is probably more appropriate to the nutrition conversation…
Eat the pig, eat the pig, ziggy, ziggy, ziggy, zig! Oink, oink, oink, oink…
Pardon Me n' Brock's Bill n' Ted tangent.
Sven, funny you should use the investment advice. I was thinking of using a similar metaphor but in the exact opposite way – comparing jumping ship while creating a calorie surplus to buying a stock and selling it in panic as it dropped the next day instead of waiting patiently for it to come back up.
I do think in many cases eating well and not overexercising while avoiding stimulants, alcohol, and refined sugar will raise the metabolism. It happened in force-feeding studies (although body temps weren't recorded that I know of), even on low-quality food. I believe it can work that way in most people just like going low in calories or eating a restricted diet can lower it.
And yes, vitamins and minerals are very important. Burning through a supply of any important substance of any kind faster than it's being resupplied is probably a very common, if not the most common reason for the body to go into hibernation-mode in the first place.
Taylor was not concerned with worker well being; he was concerned with total output. Look up Fredrick Taylor's work on filling sand cast molds. I forget where I read it, but somewhere I read about a different type of shovel and having the worker wait a certain number of seconds between scoops — keeps lactic acid from building up.
You can try the drill. If you can do 30 push ups in one set, try doing sets of 20 with several minutes in between. (You can work in some other exercises if you are doing a workout.) You can get in more total pushups this way than doing sets to failure.
I was the skinny kid who sent off the coupon from the comic book. (Still don't gain weight easily.) I was weak and consistently the last pick in gym class etc. I got the biggest strength gain in my life by doing around a hundred single rep sets of partial dead lifts over the course of a week; i.e., lifting sheets of tobacco.
d: for a reference on pre-steroid bodybuilding see Steve Reeve's book. It was multi-set workouts of a couple of hours 3 times per week. The book doesn't outright say save some for the next set, but it's kind of implicit in statements of the importance of good form.
I have not had time to properly demonstrate the physical benefits of "saving some for the next set." Been too busy to exercise regularly these days. But I can vouch for the energy aspects. A high volume workout below failure saps way less than a single set workout to full failure.
I read sometime back that when going all out you tap some reserve ATP stores which take a long time to recover. The article recommended supplemental ribose to speed recovery.
Strength training isn't the topic of this blog or post (getting healthy is), but FWIW Mark Rippetoe (who has coached Olympic and world-champion athletes and power lifters) specifically recommends against workouts to failure, regardless of whether your goals are strength, power or endurance.
I just wanted to reply to the example regarding metabolism.
I think you guys are talking about the surface. There's deeper material that can be covered regarding thyroid. There's people who are hyperthyroid who eat too little, too much, and never gain weight (or can, but never get near normal). There's people who are hypothyroid who eat too little, too much, and never loose weight (or can, but never get near normal).
To say that metabolism effect thyroid – you would have to assume thyroid effects metabolism as well. Metabolism – however, I doubt can cure a hypothyroid problem. Just because it's sped up – why would that be enough to balancing hormones? And when digestion is factored in, it can get more complicated.
If everyone is truly in a different situation – it's not as simple as to focus on one thing such as metabolism. Yes, people's metabolisms can speed up from eating more, and slow down from eating less. That doesn't mean everyone's speeds up to the same rate or slows down to the same rate. What may be the only thing one person needs is not the entirety that another needs.
Yes, I agree with the guy who said not enough time can be an explanation for anything. That includes raw veganism, not just Vonderplanitz's diet. But once more explanations (digging into the science of thyroid) are explored, there can be quite some other options to take. Some which I find quite reasonable and logical.
The plantpoisons girl was eating low-carb and often even ketogenic (combined with failsafe – only a few foods left). She as well had a lot of success with it at first but said the effects wore off.
I can speak only for me but as i started to eat like Matt Stone advises my digestion got worse again, as prior Low Carb. My fat digestion got worse, i have diarrhea sometimes, bloating, low energy… All the symptoms i get from High Carb eating are detailed described in "Live without bread" from Dr. Lutz. I better believe to a doctor then to a guy who just claims what works for HIM best!
Then dont. Follow whoevers advice you want. But from the way it sounds you added things back in too fast, ate too much fat with the carbs at the beginning. Give us a better description of what you ate, when, and for how many days/weeks you ate in each way so we can know whether it actually didnt help you or you just screwed up.
And the point anonymous, is not to say what is and is not the right way to eat. If you get ill when you eat carbs and fats, you can blame the food type if you want, as many foolish people have, but there is nothing inherently wrong with carbohydrates. We are trying more to unlock the mystery of how one can improve their digestion and metabolism to a point where are carbohdyrates are tolerable – not say "not for me" and then run and hide from them forever.
Does anybody here know what Ray Peat thinks of UHT dairies? If it is all you can find, is it ok? Will it help you thyroid just as much as better kinds? Are there good or bad effects from anybodies experience?
What you can't find just "Pasteurized" milk?
I know that Ray Peat thinks even homogenized is fine, as long as artificial vitamins (A and D) aren't added to the milk.
Also, mr. Peat believes carrageenan should be avoided at all costs (carrageenan is often present in US Ultra Heat Treated creams), and, avoid all cultured/fermented dairy products except cheese. He says lactic acid is carcinogenic. So according to Ray, avoid yogurt, kefir, etc. BUT I think cultured butter is OK, since it doesn't contain much lactose, and the cultures can't really create too much lactic acid.
Ray Peat is a quack. His views are dogmatic and ridiculous. Lots of healthy primitive people drank cultured dairy (such as kefir) as a staple without getting cancer.
Did Ray Peat actually say that? Where?
"In 1974, I noticed that I consistently got a migraine headache after drinking a lactobacillus milk product, and stopped using (and recommending) yogurt and other lactobacillus foods, though I suspected it was the lactic acid which caused the immediate symptoms. Lactic acid is a metabolic burden, especially when combined with an estrogen excess, but Stevens' main point, about the significance of our immunological response to systemic bacterial antigens, deserves more attention."
He's never written anything about kefir specifically..and never suggested that it (or any food) [directly] causes cancer. I don't find him dogmatic, but scientifically inclined. He may have jumped a gun of blame rather quickly on this one, but that doesn't mean he's a quack – or that he's necessarily against fermented foods all together – but lactic acid build up inside the body. If he believes that happens, that's on his part. I'm sure if someone ate fermented foods without the lactic acid build up (if these foods can do that in the wrong bodily environment, i.e. hypothyroid state), then it wouldn't be bad! Besides, just because a culture ate a food doesn't make it automatically great for any person (who may have dietary troubles) – they had other foods in their diet..and translates to more factors to possibly consider.
I don't recall him saying that lactic acid is carcinogenic, but I do recall him stating that lactic acid is a metabolic burden on the body (whatever that means).
Ben; in reply to your (what appears to be) doubts on why lactic acid may be a burden to metabolism..
Reading Peat's article on Altitude and Mortality, he states that too much lactic acid, along with too little carbon dioxide, can cause a pathological swelling – including the swelling of the heart, for example, and faster division of cells. I think that's what he means by metabolic burden.
As well, he says..
"In hypothyroidism and diabetes, respiration is impaired, and lactic acid is formed even at rest, and relatively little carbon dioxide is produced. To compensate for the metabolic inefficiency of hypothyroidism, adrenalin and noradrenalin are secreted in very large amounts. Adrenalin causes free fatty acids to circulate at much higher levels, and the lactic acid, adrenalin, and free fatty acids all stimulate hyperventilation. The already deficient carbon dioxide is reduced even more, producing respiratory alkalosis. Free fatty acids, especially unsaturated fats, increase permeability of blood vessels, allowing proteins and fats to enter the endothelium and smooth muscle cells of the blood vessels. Lactic acid itself promotes an inflammatory state, and in combination with reduced CO2 and respiratory alkalosis, contributes to the hyponatremia (sodium deficiency) that is characteristic of hypothyroidism. This sodium deficiency and osmotic dilution causes cells to take up water, increasing their volume."
..in a different article on progesterone. As you can see, he's taken what is common in hypothyroid people and applied it to health. Whether or not a person with a healthy thyroid is disturbed by actual lactic acid intake and exercise is what I'm wondering. But going by a few things to keep in mind: 1. what Matt has said before – that heavy exercise can cause him to gain weight (perhaps from the lactic acid secretion – also causing the raise in cortisol that also has an effect on thyroid; basically it's a big circle of effects) – then I wouldn't be surprised that he's onto something good.
2. by what my symptoms are, and what any hypothyroid symptoms can be – having air hunger in general, and finding it hard to do any physically demanding activity without feeling like I can't breath; as well as the common water retention.
and 3. as a different example, unsaturated fats in the body seem to do just this – oxidize, especially in hypothyroid people; maybe because they're a huge cause.
Really, it's very interesting stuff, and much worth the time to read, in my humble opinion.
Matt, ChloE, all other contributors:
Can you guys write down some specific quantities on food that you are eating?
Like how many pounds of potatoes, how much butter, etc etc etc
Is eating 3 pounds of potatoes and 1/2-1 pound (1-2 packages of Orangic Valley) pasteurized butter daily OK? Is binging on salt and orange juice also OK?
How much orange juice is the max on HED? Is 1 quart per day OK?
Are you a lumberjack? Or an athlete? Or just a glutton? Or are you planning to make "Supersize Me II"? The diet you described is approximately 3250-4875 calories per day (depending if you use 1/2 or 1 lb butter). For most people, that is way too much.
Potatoes are nutritionless starch-bombs, unfit for human consumptions. OJ is an unnatural sugar-bomb which will destroy your teeth and give you diabetes. Instead of OJ, eat whole fresh seasonal fruit in small amounts.
A much better diet (for an average active man) would be:
1 kg raw red meat (preferably wild or grass-fed)
maybe a few fruits and/or vegetables in season (preferably organic)
maybe a small spoon of honey (preferably unheated)
maybe an egg or two (from pasture-fed chickens).
If you need to ask "Is X amount of food OK?", then the answer is "no, X is too much".
If the answer is yes, then your body will let you know. (i.e. you will be hungry until you eat X amount).
When I come back from a day-long bike ride, or hike, or canoe trip, I don't need to ask anybody if it's ok to wolf down 2kg of raw meat. I just eat.
"Can you guys write down some specific quantities on food that you are eating?"
after 2+ years on low carb diet I would eat bowl fulls of white rice. Can't give you specific amounts other than saying perhaps 6 to 8 large bowls a day.
This has since reduced to perhaps half this amount, but nevertheless enough for most low carb proponents to choke on their suet.
Whatever, worked well for me.
The other thing that I found very beneficial – and it sounds like something we would do anyway, but for me at least, I didn't – is chew the food well.
Some old oriental healing teachings talk about aiming for about 50 chews per mouthful and if you are really sick up to 200 chews. Now, I dont go anywhere near the latter, or even the former for that matter, but I do now make sure the food is well masticated before swallowing.
Has been a good help.
Plenty of cultures that eat starch really beat the hell out of it before eating it. (See "Ogi") Instead of chewing something 50~200 times you could probably just put it in the food processor for 20 seconds and get the same effect. It's all about breaking down the physical structure of the plant to reduce the amount of work your digestive system has to do, not the chewing itself.
The guy who responded to you is correct. Unless you're a lumberjack or a competitive cyclist it sounds to me like you're eating way too much. Especially the OJ – that stuff is barely better for you than Coca-Cola. It's pure sugar! The only thing you should be drinking is water and milk, and maybe some herbal teas or the natural fermented beverages described in Nourishing Traditions by Sally Fallon.
As for quantities, I eat until I'm full. A normal breakfast might be a glass of milk, 3 eggs, a small bowl of rice and some saurkraut or other fermented veggies. But that is what's right for me; your mileage WILL vary.
I was out for a trip with my girlfriend to Lake Norman this past weekend. It was interesting, asside from a great time with Heather, I noticed a few health-related things. For some reason, my bowel movements slowed down considerably on the trip. They were small and very infrequent, with no dietary changes to to suggest why. I'm guessing it was just the environment and stress. I do remember not going for 5 days once when on a missions trip to Mexico. I did not want to sit on the spider-ridden toilets, but fortunately finally did. I feel sorry for my poor colon :-(. My metabolsim seemed to stay high on the trip, and my energy level was good even with getting to bed at 1am, 11pm, and 11pm, and waking up at 7:30am, 7am, and 7am. I tried water skiing at Heather's suggestion, and spent a while in the water. I had no real heavy workouts, but I'm sure it was good, light cardio overall (I feel lots of somewhat-acheing muscles now thanks to the water skiing). I had gobs of coconut oil, ghee, and butter on the trip (I might be able to beat out Matt for fat consumption; not sure though), sourdough bread, steamed vegtables, potatoes, and various meats. I tried to do slightly lower carb some meals (maybe 40g a meal vs 60g) to encourage weight loss, but I'm not sure if that mattered. It seems like I also may be fine with cooked or canned tomato, and not raw tomato for some reason (even when I peel the tomatoes). I'm sure I had a bit of cortisol release in general on the trip from various stresses, but even so my body seemed to do just fine. One of the main things I originally disagreed with Matt on was about doing low-intensity workouts (at least until your body is performing quite well, or so I'm guessing; maybe they simply aren't optimum) rather than high-intensity ones. From some things I had heard, I was more into the occasional high-intensity workout. I read comments saying that Matt said that high-intensity workouts sometimes caused him to gain weight, and based on my own oberservances, I have to change my stance to lean towards light exercise and stretching (both of which I need to get into more). Has anyone observed if the body can stay more flexible without streching if the metabolism and everything is right? I was a bit curious in that regard, and I don't know about how stretching has been used historically.
I came back home last night, and this morning I weighed in at 161. I have been fluctuating between 162 and 164, presumably due to food and water weight, but haven't been 161 in a while =D. I'm quite happy about that; many thanks to all of you. After being more rather anorexic for a while, my ribs became quite noticable. I used to be in the 150, and even high 140's range (maybe bottoming out at 145 lb, I'm not sure). After gaining some weight back (a mix of maybe too much fat and some muscle), unless I'm retaining water or bloated, my ribs are still quite noticable (though not as much), but I have fat on my stomach, thighs, and lower back, mostly. Kind of wondering if muscle usually covers up the ribs which I haven't regained, or if the fat distribution over the body changes some under the wrong dietary influences.
The more I read about Ray Peat, the more I question him. Traditional societies consumed some forms of polyunsaturates in reasonable quantity just fine, along with cultured milk and other things. Perhaps it isn't optimum though for the best potential health, but I'm not sure on that. The lactic acid theories are interesting, but I do think that lactic acid through the digestive tract is quite different than lactic acid produced by over-worked muscles (though I could be wrong). My guess is that if anything, lactic acid could be harmful if the body is not in it's ideal state, but I do think it is fine overall. Suprised that he advocates pasteurized (even UHT) milk with lactose intolerance so rampant, but I have no background on his writings about that, so don't take my word for it.
— Continuing comment below —
— Continuing comment —
I read about the guar gum in coconut milk (among other things) being easily fermentable in the gut, so it seems to support why it might cause bloating more. Wondering if the coconut milk has a chance to settle, if the guar gum is only in the water, or if it's mixed in the cream, too (I'm not totally sure how emulsifiers work, but the coconut water separation is awfully thick, which to me suggests that it builds up in the water). Finding coconut milk without it seems to be quite difficult.
Still wondering about water intake. Ray Peat and others suggest only drinking when you are thirsty. I find that if I get Apolinaris or another good kind of naturally carbonated water, I want to drink much more of it than regular water. Not sure if this is a biological response, or if I just like drinking it though. My experience leans towards a little more water than I'm completely thirsty for (that meaning, if I feel like drinking water even if I'm not directly thirsty, I drink water). Although I'm really not sure and the debate goes on.
I'll end with two tips. If you can tolerate bread in various forms (I seem to be just fine with reasonable (though maybe not Nourishing Traditions-quality) sourdough wheat bread), it's great for soaking up gobs of oil with. Drinking excess oil off the plate is not fun, but having the bread nicely soaked in it is a nice change. I even got Heather into pouring coconut oil on her bread to some extent; I'm really proud of her =D <3. Coconut oil saturated bread with ghee spread on top is excellent :-). Also, the Vitamin Shoppe brand coconut oil is excellent. I've tried many brands, and though I've heard mixed reports that coconut oil should be refined else it can cause problems, I haven't noticed that myself (except maybe with this one brand that tasted like it was made from moldy coconuts). I can get the Vitamin Shoppe brand for about 50% cheaper than the cheapest I can find locally, and it is probably the best tasting I've used. You may want to check it out.
Heh, I wrote a paragraph suggesting Matt use Google Adsense on his blog, and then noticed that he already did. A little curious as to how many hits per day this blog gets, but I'm glad he is hopefully getting a little bit of income from ads.
Oh, I glanced at Slashdot. The Slashdot community generally believes in the calories in – calories burned = weight change, but I came accross some reasonable thought in the comments. Makes for a nice change.
Sorry for the sporatic thoughts, but I would be quite interested to see a comparision of diets and body composition/health of the 14 traditional tribes and other that Weston A. Price studied. It would be neat to see the differences between them, and possibly extrapolate to a few guesses on what is necessary for optimium health (although any of the 14 tribe's diets would probably be so much better than the standard American diet (especially plus dieting)).
Ok, well, I agree to some extent with Brock that you eat till you're full..but Orange Juice is not as bad as coca cola. Coco cola (at least the American kind) is a syrup and practically a byproduct of processing, filled with acids and other cockeries that will leach the calcium out your bones. Orange juice is fucking juice squeezed from an orange. And quite different from the juice they usually sell in stores, I might add. Those, with additives of calcium, vitamin D, pasteurized and colors added to them.. are not the same. Nor do they taste the same as the real stuff – yuck.
But going back to the main point, no one should be asking the quantities of which to eat. It simply can't be answered when there is so little known of a person. It takes research and reading to know how to help yourself. There is no one situation cures all by any means.
To Teran, when you said you gained fat – and especially be cause you said you gained it on the stomach and back – that's a sign of low progesterone and high cortisol. Something that isn't a good thing if you want to fix your thyroid. I truly believe digestive systems behaving badly stems from that very low thyroid – not just what foods are eaten. And the hormones that effect thyroid should be very much considered. And I know that it's believed by some here, obviously, that sugars are rejected. But, I think it should be considered more. No one really debates ever what I try to bring to the table regarding Ray Peat's real stance on diet. Why just look at the fact that he doesn't recommend yogurt (I mean, for fuck's sake). He's extremely focused on thyroid and balancing hormones. I've learned a lot from that, and surprisingly for once, a lot of what he says matches my experience.
I think if guar gums are in something – it's not something I'd eat often if at all. Like Matt had said, it's not the things that harm you once in a long time; it's the things you eat consistently that will do damage.
Seriously – those additives cause allergens in people. It's why a lot of people complain of store bought milk as being bad – because of the enzymes and artificial vitamins they add to milk when they pasteurize it. Not because of the fact it's pasteurized or homogenized, but because of the additives that people are so fragile towards. Those are the real problem, I think, and why so many people see benefits with raw milk. Just something to think about..
Natural Value non organic milk comes without guar gums or any additives. If your local healthfood store or grocery store doesn't have it, i had them special order me a case, they usually will.
As for me, i was the same way about intense workouts…. i have been doing alot of long barefoot walking and slow jogging, it has done wonders!!!! I still do some intense stuff here and there, maybe weights once or twice a week and sprints once a week, but i would rather swim, walk, jog, or ride my bicycle.
chloe are u following ray peeat? what dxo you eat daily? what are ray suggestions for weight loss? and w hat he thinks about chocolate? thx chloe
No offense, but all those questions could be answered if you just read his articles.
do everything barefooted, or in vibram five fingers… it will changer your life forever!!!!!!!
Thanks for the explanation re: Ray Peat and lactic acid. Apologize if I unintentionally sounded dimissive in my comment. Your explanation (and his theory) makes sense. I mean, the lactic acid produced by muscles is definitely something our body had to deal with, so it is reasonable to assume that the same is true with lactic acid that one consumes orally.
I wonder, though, how the lactic acid in a cup of yogurt compares with the amount of lactic acid generated by intense exercise. Any info on that?
Matt you need a good adsense tutorial. Google isn't finding anything to connect with in order to serve content specific ads, thus you are getting public service ads, at least on this post.
I'm not sure about how much would be a bad thing. I'm pretty sure it would vary from person to person how much is too much, and if their body even allows the build up.
Being that the problem lies with the excess lactic acid in the blood, then I think it's entirely possible to be able to get too much of it through food (again, depending on the person). It's one of those things where you say..people may have fermented things, but was that also because they had no where to store it? Milk that eventually sours is fermented, well, the raw kind. Perhaps that has not near the same effect as the store yogurt which they use their own bacterias and lactic acid, though.
There's also hunter gatherers that hunted, and had to do so for hours. The indigenous san bushman that are the hunters look pretty emaciated (as do most long distance athletes) – you know, they've got to run and walk for hours to catch the prey. Is it all entirely necessary? It's like how we used to not cook food, but we figured out how to do more. Sure, these indigenous cultures are entirely healthier than an average American – but can more be done to further assure health? I think soooo.
Re the whole orange juice debate. I think it definitely depends on freshness, etc. I feel all my allergy symptoms when I drink store bought orange juice from concentrate. When I drink a small glass (4 ounces or so) of fresh squeezed orange juice I'm fine. I don't do this everyday, but every once in a while it hits the spot.
I had to laugh at the anon who recommended we eat a kilo of raw meat a day. I'll get right on that because all these potatoes with butter are making me fat. Oh wait, no there not. I lost weight this week. My basal temp is up above 98 consistently and for the first time since my kid was born I don't feel like I'm borderline IBS in the digestive realm.
Troy, can you link me to the Vibram five fingers site?
Vibram Five-Fingers: http://tinyurl.com/nvxjl5
I am not Troy, but here is link:
Vibram Five Fingers.
If you prefer just the url, here is: http://www.vibramfivefingers.com/.
Oh, sorry Brock, I didn't see you had already responded. You must have done so while I was composing my post ; )
No probs DML, though I think my link was more … educational.
Dont believe the Sally Fallon dogma sheep that OJ is as bad or worse than Coke. How absolutely absurd. I laugh every time I hear that. Maybe if you are drinking OJ with additives and from concentrate using sewer water, maybe.
Now tell me again they're the same.
For the last 9 months or so I have been drinking 2-3 quarts of OJ per week, a quart at a time (usually with cheese). I drink store bought not from concentrate 100% orange juice (it IS pasteurized) and have never noticed any problems. In fact, it always gives me good energy, no crashes, and my teeth are just fine.
But, Im getting a bit tired of the taste, to be honest. So I am going to stop drinking it completely for the time being. Ill report back as to whether I all of a sudden become super healthy (haha, right) or have any changes from cutting it out.
does anyone know if the Vibram shoes are lightweight?
Da'Drooooo, aka Drew. And others like him:
It sounds like you're healthy, so why are you even here? Not to say you're not invited, but I'm sick of "healthy" people thinking their individual cases mean jack. I have friends that look good and feel good living on Taco Bell, alcohol and cocaine. They also dabble in some exercise and Jamba Juice protein shakes for their health. Riiight.
My point is, I believe individual cases are only relevant here when you're dealing with a diseased person. When you lost 20 pounds just by quitting coffee, when you fixed your allergies by going sugar-free for a month, or when you cleared your acne by introducing coconut oil in your diet, THESE are the stories that are relevant.
"I drink 2 cans of Pepsi every day but I'm a healthy weight cuz I exercise it off, MATT STONE IS CLEARLY A GODDAMN LIAR" might as well be what I'm hearing when you're on your "I drink a lot of supermarket orange juice, and I'm healthy" pedestal.
cranky kong, aka "cranky TROLL"
"I have friends that look good and feel good living on Taco Bell, alcohol and cocaine."
To quote you, "Riiight." I believe you…wait, I don't. I have been around cocaine users (unfortunately) and they never look healthy unless they just started and it hasn't caught up with them yet. It is even worse if they combine it with long term alcohol consumption. (Look at before and after pics of Lindsay Lohan during her drug use.)
In short, cranky dinky danky, stop making crap up to make a point.
I agree that for some people OJ is probably not the best thing to be drinking, but as Matt has pointed out numerous times, it it people that are unhealthy, not the food.
Granted, given that orange juice is an easily consumable sugar and fructose laden liquid form of a whole food, it is possible that OJ is not healthiest thing to be drinking. However, there is no convincing evidence that it will harm the a healthy person (and some not-so healthy people), if reasonable amounts are consumed. In addition, I agree with Drew and previous commentators: It is absurd to compare OJ to Pepsi. That is the same kind of silly hyperbole divorced from reason that leads some vegans to proclaim that meat is "like poison to your body" or fruitarians to assert "milk is just like pepsi," blithely ignoring the health of the Swiss and the Maasai. In short, at the risk of being redundant: there is no evidence that OJ is unhealthy consumed in moderate amounts, especially for people that don't have a problem with it- such as fructose malabsorption issues, etc.
But really, cranky kong, as mentioned above, stop making crap up, it makes you seem to lack credibility.
Lack of proof that OJ is unhealthy does NOT imply that OJ is healthy.
Fruit juice drunk by primitive tribes was fermented into alcohol (decreasing sugar content), NOT consumed fresh.
It's best to skip the OJ. You have teeth for a reason. Go eat a whole orange instead.
The comment about cocaine was probably an exaggeration. Many of my colleagues live on junk food and drink excessive amounts of alcohol. Some look unhealthy, but others look perfectly healthy.
Anonymous (at 8:40) said,
"Lack of proof that OJ is unhealthy does NOT imply that OJ is healthy."
I agree, and if that comment it directed at me, there is nothing in what I said that implies I believe otherwise. However, lack of proof that OJ is unhealthy DOES imply that OJ is not as bad as Pepsi, which had plenty of evidence demonstrating that it is a very bad drink indeed.
"The comment about cocaine was probably an exaggeration." Well, if people can't discuss something without engaging in absurd hyperbole that is presented as a true statement, I think they need to withdraw from the discussion and let their intellectual superiors carry on the conversation…
"It's best to skip the OJ. You have teeth for a reason. Go eat a whole orange instead."
Hmmm…that is like saying: "It is best to skip the milk. You have teeth for a reason. Go eat a cow instead." The problem is, this would ignore the healthy native peoples that consumed a large portion of their calories from milk.
Stated in another way: That we have teeth really proves nothing about whether or not we should be drinking something in a- or it's- liquid form.
DML you missed anonymous' main point. The main point was not that we have teeth and should never drink liquids… the point was what TRADITIONAL primitives did – and none of them drank freshly squeezed fruit juices.
DML you missed anonymous' main point. The main point was not that we have teeth and should never drink liquids… the point was what TRADITIONAL primitives did – and none of them drank freshly squeezed fruit juices.
First of all, there's no proof that primitive people didn't "drink juice". I've seen chimpanzees sit there and suck the juice out of oranges. A man named Dr. Bass sat there and watched sick (that word is important) monkeys consume fruit, ripping off all the fibrous parts and avoiding them.
They may be monkeys, but for something that has a larger cecum than us, to rip off the fiber and try to get to the juicey stuff – wouldn't that say something?
Anyway.. The whole point is not orange juice will kill your teeth. And there's no way I buy fructose malabsorption. Yes if you eat high fructose corn syrup all day, that will probably be malabsorbed, but not actual fructose in fruit. I seriously have my doubts about all of that. I'm not a healthy person, and I saw no difference of no fructose for five months, to a quart of orange juice a day, milk, and peaches. The only thing that helps my digestion is what effects my thyroid or effects my hormones – at least, that's what's been consistent beyond any other explanation. I believe it to be the same with teeth – it's not directly caused by a sugar in any way.
Personally, I think it's silly to argue who drank what. Not every one tribe was as healthy as each other. There were ones healthier than others. Saying it's simply because of their diet may be too little. It could be because they had more food, and less stressful lifestyles – or other positives that help thyroid.
There is even a liquidarian I came across when I was raw vegan, who had (before drinking nothing but fruit juices) terrible teeth – which looked entirely healthy after, and he claims – much stronger. He had pictures (all the time) – one before, and many afters. And of course there's plenty of fruitarians who have ruined their teeth. Because of this – I believe it to be an indirect and internal problem.
And to answer cranky kong's assumption that the people here saying orange juice is good are healthy does not apply to me whatsoever, just to be clear.
Oh yeah, and this may just be me, but I remember being a kid and gladly spitting out all the orange and other citrus fruit fibers after I had chewed on it to get out all the juice. Anyone?
Well, multiple others already replied with what I would have said. Thanks DML and Chloe.
For the record, I am not perfectly healthy by any stretch. I simply do not believe a single study Sallon Fallon posted saying OJ was more unhealthy than coca cola. Sometimes you just have to take a step back and say to yourself "this doesnt make sense". If she posted a study that dirt was more healthy than [insert healthy food here], would you believe it? Hopefully not.
And yes, just because there isnt evidence that orange juice is unhealthy does not mean that it is healthy. But nor does it mean that its not.
Yes! I've probably only eaten an actual or orange once or twice in my life. Otherwise I just chew out the juice. Been drinking it a lot lately and my teeth have never felt so good! Better than when I was eating no fruit or sugars, even with lots of carbs.
There's a big difference between drinking OJ from a glass and sucking the juice out of whole oranges.
When drinking from a glass, your sense of thirst tells you when to stop. When sucking juice out of the fruit, your sense of hunger tells you when to stop.
It's easy to open the fridge, pour a glass of OJ, and chug it down. It's much harder to suck the juice out of an equivalent amount of oranges. Try it.
It's same with cream vs butter. It's easy to chug down a glass of whipping cream, but much harder to eat an equivalent amount of butter with a spoon. (especially if the butter is cold).
To anon who drinks OJ and his teeth feel good: It takes a while for teeth to get damaged. Your anecdote proves nothing. In the last 2 years of high school, I drank lots of soft drinks, and my teeth felt great. Not a single cavity. I'm glad that I stopped drinking the stuff, because it eventually would have caused health problems.
whats matt stance on quantities of foods. IS 2 pounds of potatoes, 1 pound of pasteurized butter OK for healing the HED way?
Chloe, can you help me out please? I read that Ray Peat said that mice fed raw starch aged VERY rapidly compared to mice not fed starch. Which "starch" is safe to eat ("least" raw lol). I'm thinking, are boiled potatoes really that well broken down starch (how much should they be boiled btw?) – I noticed that when potatoes get cold they get much harder than they were warm (even if boiled for 1 hour), proving they may have some raw starch in them?
Is wheat (pizza, pasta, bread) ok? Or does wheat also age one faster?
What about solanine toxin in potatoes, is it dangerous if one eats potatoes every day? Are potatoes safer than wheat products, or is white flour better because it doesn't contain neurotoxin solanine?
Does Ray Peat think all starches have to be treated with alkali in order to break starch down, or is it only Corn where the starch gets into the blood undigested, if it is not alkali treated. (can the starch in well cooked potatoes or pizza be malabsorbed into blood stream the same way? Which is safer, potatoes every day or white flour every day). by the way, do you eat wheat chloe? Could you please post an example of all the foods you eat in 1 day, along with the meal times (for example 7am, 3pm, 7pm). Any specific foods you recommend for raping healing? Are pasteurized cheeses OK?
I don't think there's a difference between sucking the juice out of an orange or drinking it. And I doubt butter is better than cream because of this comparison. It's not like the only way to drink orange juice is to chug it, anyway.
Peat believes the mice aged so quickly because of the arterioles that were blocked in those mice by the raw starch grain. It some what fit his theory of persorption. However, I don't have much to think about grains just yet. Mice are different from people, as well; and whether or not other factors effect this is something also to be considered. Yes, he does eat corn products soaked in alkali because of some students he had do a test – with the alkali soaked corn, there was no detection of the grain particles in the urine or blood. It is your choice what you want to eat or believe or try yourself.
I fry and boil potatoes..but again, that's your choice, and you can always experiment and see if you seem to digest one or the other better. They're supposed to have a "good" protein content, somewhat similar to milk – so I would say eat them when you want. There's also potato juice..too.
Um what I eat let's see..potatoes, peaches, orange juice, milk, cream, butter, coconut oil, cheese – mostly, but currently doing more experimenting with proteins, meats, fish, and also raw carrots (haha, you'd have to read more about it to know). I'm trying to eat more protein, but that's a money issue. I usually eat three times in a day. But dude, examples are just examples; this is my thing and I'm not even the best functioning person yet. You've got to figure out your problem before you try to correct it. I'm not a flourishing example of anything, I'm just debating what sounds the most correct to me – for the purpose of learning more.
I agree there isnt a difference between sucking juice out of an orange and drinking it except time. I would likely not want to drink a quart of orange juice if I had to suck it out as it would take way too much time and effort.
Drinking orange juice has always affected my sense of hunger, never thirst because Im not drinking it because Im thirsty. Sucking it out compared to drinking wouldnt change that other than I might need less to stop my hunger because any time Im hungry I could eat like 1/4 of the meal and my hunger will likely go away for a short while. A short while.
Anonymous people that actually post more than once: Go create an account so we know who you are! Its easy and free!
"Anonymous people that actually post more than once: Go create an account so we know who you are! Its easy and free!"
Suck my balls Drew! It's easy and free!
An extremely immature thing to say.
LOL @ anon
You don't even need to create an account, just hitName/URL and type in a handle.
"Anyway.. The whole point is not orange juice will kill your teeth. And there's no way I buy fructose malabsorption. Yes if you eat high fructose corn syrup all day, that will probably be malabsorbed, but not actual fructose in fruit. I seriously have my doubts about all of that. I'm not a healthy person, and I saw no difference of no fructose for five months, to a quart of orange juice a day, milk, and peaches. The only thing that helps my digestion is what effects my thyroid or effects my hormones – at least, that's what's been consistent beyond any other explanation. I believe it to be the same with teeth – it's not directly caused by a sugar in any way."
Well, I could equally well conclude that fructose from fruit is just as harmful as high fructose corn syrup. The collapse (allergies worsened, metabolism in the toilet, poor digestion) that led me to this blog was brought on by fructose from fruit, I believe. I quit eating all artificial sugar. Unfortunately I was also eating a ton of whole grains, (oatmeal, whole grain bread, brown rice). I was sweetening my oatmeal (which I was eating several times a day) with a fruit compote made from dried fruit and slathering my toast with fruit preserves. Dried fruit concentrates fructose and I was simply rehydrating concentrated fructose. Things started to turn around after I cut this out. There were other factors involved (I was also eating a lot of highly processed dairy and enough whey protein that it probably also effected my allergies.)
The comparison of orange juice to junk food is actually a valid one. In Nourishing traditions it says that a glass of orange juice has as much sugar as a candy bar. Maybe that's hypberbolic and insane, but I think it useful to wake people up because they've been completely brainwashed into thinking that natural sugars are just fine. My son's doctor first told us that we should quit giving juice to our kid because he wasn't eating enough. Fruit juice, even the fresh squeezed kind, is very, very sweet and has an addicting quality to it. The kid will stop eating altogether almost and try to get all their energy from the juice. At the height of my son's juice consumption, he was drinking it almost continuously and it was a bad scene to ween him off of it. Ultimately we did through having lots of fresh fruit that you have to chew in the house and giving him unlimited access. While the kid can eat an entire pint of blueberries in a sitting, I've never seen him eat more than a few apple or orange slices at a time. Those high-fructose fruits have enough fiber in them to make them work to eat. Put it in juice form and you change the equation, concentrate the fructose and there you can have problems.
Matt has talked about his own problems with natural sugars. I'm sure that there are others who can't tolerate them as well as some do. Maybe if I was taking desicated pig thyroid I could suck down all the OJ I wanted. I have tried to avoid the medication route so far and control with diet.
Of couse, the ultimate message behind Matt's advice is "get enough calories." More and more as I isolate variables, the days that I have that are the worst for digestion and allergies are the days when I don't eat enough.
Jenny, it sounds like your implying that Chloe is somehow inferior and taking the easy route out just because she's decided to take the helpful leap in taking thyroid. I don't like that. It's like criticizing someone for wearing glasses when they need them to see. I'm glad that you were able to get well on food alone, but for many people that won't be enough.
Mark Starr AND Broda Barnes have implied that supplying the body with much needed thyroid hormone can increase tolerance to the types of food eaten. Mark Starr's book makes a very compelling case regarding how allergies and food intolerances are a sign of hypothyroidism.
You're also making the mistake of thinking that it's a foods fault for making you sick when it's actually your body's fault that you have that reaction. Just because you're intolerant to fruit or natural juice (I don't mean processed storebought stuff) doesn't mean that it's the devil.
"In Nourishing traditions it says that a glass of orange juice has as much sugar as a candy bar."
That's comparing a processed sugar against an unprocessed sugar; kind of like comparing a poppy flower to opium.
As for Matt's idea that the main point is to get enough calories, from any source, I'm highly wary of that. Tons of people are getting plenty of calories from Taco Bell and wherever the hell else, and they're fat and sick.
You can not say that it was fructose causing you problems..when clearly Matt's point about fructose is that he believes it slows thyroid and metabolism; and perhaps the "malabsorption" effects digestion.
It would have to mean that it someway slowed down your thyroid. And how can you blame it on fructose..when your diet was whole grains and fruit mostly? What about the grains..do they not factor in here? Lack of fat and protein? Lifestyle stress habits? These aren't full separate variables, and hardly the case to conclude based on fructose.
I also do not believe that dairy triggers allergies. I believe that the additives in them do, or the weakness of the overall system in the body – i.e. thyroid that control the digestive system's ability to absorb properly.
Honestly, listen to what you're saying. A candy bar..and orange juice. Here are the ingredients in a candy bar, let's say, snickers:
milk chocolate (sugar, cocoa butter, chocolate, skimmed milk, lactose, milkfat, soy lecithin, artificial flavor), peanuts, corn syrup, sugar, skim milk, butter, milkfat, partially hydrogenated soybean oil, lactose, salt, egg whites and artificial flavor
Corn syrup, clearly ahead of sugar; just pointing that out.
Now let's look at orange juice:
Really? I mean, really? That's on the assumption that sugars are bad, and all the same, that a candy bar would have to be equally nutritional as an orange. What about the minerals and vitamins in an orange? Potassium, Vitamin C..
Also, I have no addiction whatsoever to orange juice. You can become addicted to anything – including fats, proteins, whatever. I used to be addicted to bread and chocolate, and I'm sure I'm not alone on that one. It can also be blamed on an instability inside the person. The only time I really want orange juice is when I'm extremely thirsty. And I think for very good reason.
Yes, I know well that Matt has talked about sugar problems. Though, I never hear a full story regarding what sugars. There are too many variables to blame something on sugar alone. High cortisol, for instance, can very easily create unstable blood sugar. What you eat with the sugars..what other problems there may be in a person.
Oh, and I'm not on dessicated thyroid. I'm on Cytomel. And it's a synthetic T3. Besides, I was drinking orange juice way before I started taking T3 without any noticeable problems. And before I started drinking orange juice, I had been eating no fructose for six or so months. Don't think I didn't try to do this without T3. Once I raised carbs (starches, being potatoes) I had noticed an increase in temperature – that slowly started to drop – my digestion continuing to get worse. By advice, I started to eat more well-cooked fibers, which initially improved digestion; but I was not tracking temperature throughout then. Soon my digestion got worse again, and vegetables did nothing, as my temperature was once again low. It's brought confusion to me, and frustration. My most recent findings have given me more reason to believe that medication boosts are not bad at all – and in reality, sugars were something that seemed like they could help me tremendously, from consulting with Peat. It isn't like I'm doing nothing with diet – I'm following what I think will fix my thyroid the most, with food, and T3.
Everyone has the ability to react a certain way to food, and I know this. I do not believe, however, that people are different just because. I think that internally there are many factors to consider, and everyone is different because they have different problems.
I would say the only foods that I believe to be truly the cause of metabolic destruction are unsaturated oils.
Chloe said: Really? I mean, really? That's on the assumption that sugars are bad, and all the same, that a candy bar would have to be equally nutritional as an orange. What about the minerals and vitamins in an orange? Potassium, Vitamin C.
Sorry, but your logic doesn't follow. Yeah, OJ has "good stuff" in it, but it's also got the sugar. If sugar is bad, then the OJ is bad – no matter how many vitamins it has. Adding Vitamin C and potassium to rat poison wouldn't make it healthy to eat (Please note that I am NOT saying OJ=Rat poison; it's just an example to make my point). In theory I recognize the difference between highly refined HFCS and natural sugars, but my body doesn't in practice.
I have problems with natural sugars too. I wasn't paying attention a couple weeks ago and starting snacking on dried apricots. I guess I had a few too many. Bad digestion, moodiness and loss of mental focus resulted. It lasted about 24 hours. My tolerance seems to be 3-4 apricots at most. I was not consuming a great deal of grains or other fruit at the time.
Now maybe I could handle more apricots at a later time in my life if I'm healthier, or on some type of thyroid supplement, but I can't handle it now. The natural sugars are clearly a problem in a way that butter, coconut, meat, veggies, etc. are not. I can even have pizza with the white flour crust and "ghetto cheese", but not if it has pineapple. sugar=sugar=sugar.
One thing I would appreciate from Matt is guidance on how I should progress through HED. I have been back on HED for about two weeks now (since my ketogenic panic attack), and I can say the following:
-Mental focus improved immediately. Within hours of putting starch back in the world snapped back into focus.
-Digestion improved immediately, and continues to improve.
-Energy levels improved immediately and continue to improve. I walk every day now and I even felt like playing a game of tag with the dog in the park last night. Just playful energy. It's been a long time since I had that.
-My tolerance (and desire) for calories continues to increase, and I seem to be desiring bigger and bigger meals (along with corresponding increases in energy). Two weeks ago I had four slices of pizza; last night I wasn't satiated until I had six (pizza is as close to junk food as I get, and I've only had it those two times – with a thin crust, meatballs, mushrooms and extra cheese).
But where does it stop? What signals from my body should I be looking for? Do I trust my sense of hunger/satiety? When can I trust them?
I can tell that I have knocked my metabolism way out of equilibrium, and everything is changing a little bit every day. I feel good, but I don't know where I'm going, what I should expect, or what I should look for (good or bad). I feel a bit like I'm flying blind. Have I missed something in one of the podcasts or newsletters, or forgotten something from a blog post or one of the books?
Thanks for any pointers anyone.
Matt, I concur on the "enough with the Anonymous posters" meme. You should turn off that option.
Brock, you said that "sugar=sugar=sugar." The same thing could be said about fat – although we know that there are vast differences in the TYPES of fats, like PUFA and saturated fat. I think it's possible that there are vast differences between natural, unaltered sugars and the druglike refined sugar that's in packaged foods.
I think that anyone can develop a food intolerance to anything. It's not the food's fault, but the body's fault for reacting that way.
Ha, like you can prove sugar is bad, man, by telling me some dried apricots made you feel bad. Anything in those apricots? Did you dehydrate them yourself? Any additives at all? You also ate them alone, no? Someone with poor blood sugar tolerance will experience it more eating just sugars. But did the sugars cause it directly? I don't think so.
Even so, you can blame this on the sugar..or basically you. Like I said, a lot of things cause blood sugar dips and spikes, including cortisol disruption.
When I had jumped into a mostly protein and fat diet following my mostly fruit days, eventually when I started to limit carbs more, my skin became very dry, and I was more fatigued. I was eating mostly muscle meats and tons of butter. Was I eating all I wanted? Yes. Is this still a factor..or do carbs, proteins and fats have to be considered for eating enough to be a liable option for cures? I think that's what's being egged on by the title "carb wars" – why carbs? Because without them, cortisol can go too high. When cortisol is high from previous low carbing or what have you – of course someone is going to react to sugar. Not only this, something like salt can be a huge factor in controlling blood sugar levels as well (also keeps adrenaline low).
When I first started to introduce more potatoes to my diet after I had been eating hardly any carbs, I would get shaky. The shakiness was also worsened by stress..cortisol..ringing any bells? Does that mean I should have pointed at the potato?
Anyway, it's easy to say "I ate sugar and this is what happened".
Including what goes on with your hormones and thyroid.
If force feeding is helping you, that's awesome. If you eventually feel great, good going. I'm not here to say starches are bad and force feeding doesn't work. I'm here to say sugars aren't evil, not the cause of issues, and my proof is in myself, just like you have your conclusion that eating a ton of starch and fat and protein is helping you. But I am positive you have not tried what I am trying right now, are not in my shoes, and so, it's hard to listen to anything you try to exclaim regarding orange juice being as bad as a candy bar, and all sugars being the same.
So, sir, your logic doesn't follow.
Harper said: you said that "sugar=sugar=sugar." The same thing could be said about fat
No, you can't. Fructose is a monosaccharide. It's as chemically simple as food gets, and the fructose in OJ is the same fructose you'd get anywhere else. Yes refinement matters, but chemistry rules. PUFAs and saturated fats actually have different chemical structures.
Chloe said: Ha, like you can prove sugar is bad, man, by telling me some dried apricots made you feel bad.
Who said I was proving anything? I was relating my experience for the benefit of anyone reading this; that's it. I haven't proved anything more than you have.
Anything in those apricots? Did you dehydrate them yourself? Any additives at all? You also ate them alone, no?
No, there was nothing in them. They were raw organic, from a trusted distributer. I ate them after a meal, not alone.
Even so, you can blame this on the sugar..or basically you.
This is the biggest pile of b/s in your post, and I'm calling you on it. If you want to get all defensive because my experience doesn't jive with yours, bitch to someone who cares. Everything in this blog is about the interaction of the food and the person. There's no such thing as inherently good food. Everything is only as good as the body tolerates it, even mother's milk. If I told you I couldn't digest butter would that be an indictment of butter? Of course not.
And I don't need to hear your "other factors" crap. I told you straight up that maybe I would tolerate them better under different conditions, so back off.
Bottom line: People asked if there was a difference between refined sugars and natural sugars. In my experience, based on my current health, there is little difference. And there's nothing you can say that will make that untrue.
It looks like Chloe has taken over for Bruce…:
"Have you isolated your variables? What others factors are present?
I can drink OJ all day long and feel good"
You were trying to state that sugars were bad, and then you drew from your own experience. Sorry if I assumed that you were trying to back your statement that way.
However, I have read that refined fructose is chemically different from fructose (levulose) found in fruits. If you want to assume it's all the same, that's on your part. But vitamins do matter very much so when factored into the equation. I do think that comparing sugars to a poison is not a good way to make your point.
Not to mention the Native Americans who did dry their fruit for the winter, among other cultures who plain old eat fruit.
I have addressed the last part of your comment – I said that you aren't trying what I am, your focus is different, and that may be why you can "not" tolerate sugars right now. Just a thought, just a thought.
Again, the point being – it's not the sugars. It's the person. Just like someone who supposedly has trouble with fat or protein.
Speaking of which, in support of Harper; comparing refined fructose to fructose in fruit is like comparing Transaturated fats to saturated fats. Corn syrup is a starch chemically converted into a refined syrup.
An article for thought, focused on another refined food, agave nectar:
"The principal constituent of the agave is starch, such as what is found in corn or rice. The process in which the agave starch is converted into refined fructose and then sold as the sweetener agave nectar is through an enzymatic and chemical conversion that refines, clarifies, heats, chemically alters, centrifuges, and filters the non-sweet starch into a highly refined sweetener, fructose. Here, a distinction must be made. Fructose is not what is found in fruit. Commonly, fructose is compared with its opposite and truly naturally occurring sweetener, known as 'levulose'. There are some chemical similarities between fructose (man made) and levulose (made by nature), and so the synthetically refined sugar fructose was labeled in a way to make one believe it comes from fruit. "
Please don't compare me to Bruce. I'm not secretly on anti-depressants and I'm not scared of fiber.
no but your on T3, much worse than anti-depressants
Maybe that's why your digestion is so bad, because you eat too much Fiber
Brock, you don't need to get rude. It's just a debate. Keep it civil.
If nobody asked questions or tried to challenge the status quo, then we'd never get anywhere.
I would hardly compare T3 to anti-depressants.
Also, my digestion was horrible, the worst, when I was eating no fiber and mostly meats. Once again, I attribute this to poor thyroid (worsened by the amino acids and meats, and lack of carbohydrates).
Surprisingly enough it has improved by adding in one measly raw carrot with oil and vinegar a day.
Oh, and "your on" would be "you're on"…"Doctor".
I'm a doctor in medicine, not grammar.
Dr. Hennfield, what's your proof that T3 is bad? That's serious misinformation.
When someone is given medication at a pharmacy, a leaflet is given to warn patients of the side effects. The side effects list of Cytomel (T3) is as follows:
"NO COMMON SIDE EFFECTS HAVE BEEN REPORTED with the proper use of this medicine." (Medi-Span, Inc.: Database Version 97.2. Data ? 1997.)
Let's take a look at an antidepressant's (Prozac) side effects:
"Side effects may include:
Abnormal dreams, abnormal ejaculation, abnormal vision, anxiety, diarrhea, diminished sex drive, dizziness, dry mouth, flu-like symptoms, flushing, gas, headache, impotence, insomnia, itching, loss of appetite, nausea, nervousness, rash, sex-drive changes, sinusitis, sleepiness, sore throat, sweating, tremors, upset stomach, vomiting, weakness, yawning."
You seem to be confused about the relative risks regarding T3 and anti-depressants.
All the patients I have put on T3 have reported side effects back to me. The dose must be very exact. I only prescribe (whole) dessicated pork thyroid now. Many farmers will even sell you whole beef/pork thyroid if you show them a prescription, however, care must be taken with dosage.
Good luck with the synthetics!
Where do you practice, Dr. Hennfield? I tried searching your name in Google but got no results…
If you do not prescribe T3 at all, then you are not giving some of your patients what they need to get better (because some people will only get better with T3, not whole dessicated thyroid, and some need to stay on T3 indefinitely). Maybe it would be worth to work a bit more closely with these patients so you're able to find a dose that works for them?
I agree with you anonymous. I was about to write that.
Let's stop though. This is a food blog, not a thyroid one.
I have to agree with Jenny over chl0e on the fructose issue in terms of my own bodily reponse, but chl0e's mention of levulose was something I had not heard of before. While I haven't fed my body any straight sugar in ages, when I have natural sugars occasionally, I seem to have problems with them. It seems like in some doses it's just fine, but I'm really not sure. I do know that in my current state, if I have enough, I will go hypoglycemic (guessing because of fructose malabsorption). Heather (my girlfriend), however, seems to be like chl0e, and she seems to be just fine with fruits in moderation. I don't think there is anything wrong with natural sugars, but I will say that many people cannot handle them. As to whether or not they are the very best for 100% optimum human health, I'm not so sure. I would say that getting a few tablespoons of coconut oil probably beats getting the best quality fruit you can find, but I'm sure nothing is wrong with fruit if your body can handle it (and you don't overdo it). Then again, some cultures cooked fruit to break down the fibers, so I'm not totally sure.
The other day I noticed that yukon gold potatoes gave me trouble. I went back to red's (which are apparently the most tolerable around FMs). The yukon gold's do taste sweet, and I'm not 100% sure if it was those that set it off for me, but it could have been the fructose or the fructans. It seems that I'm fine with sourdough, which logically, should have the fructans fermented out of it, but my experience with unfermented wheat was even promising before.
Addressing chl0e and milk allergy only through milk additives, I personally have had stomach aches after having raw milk on its own. And I really don't think that the farmers are secretly adding in guar gum to the raw milk for any rational reason. I'm sure I would be more okay with milk now than before, but I still stay away from it (I do however, have tons of butter and seem to be fine).
To everyone, but mostly Matt:
Matt's metabolism ebook advocates eating 25-35g carbs per meal just to be sufficent for the brain's hourly glucose requirement, to prevent ketosis. However, I read a comment from Matt (please correct me if I misunderstood) suggesting that carbs be increased after no more than a month on the 25-35g range, to keep weight gain to a minimum. This confused me some, as my understanding from the book was that the body had to be in a fat driven state to burn fat. However, I've read more and more suggesting that after a certain point, the body simply needs more carbs. I have been regressing some lately, and have been wondering why. I have no doubts that I've had too much of some foods my body can't yet tolerate, but I am starting to think that I'm not having enough carbs. I've tried to purposefully go lower carb some meals thinking it would help with weight loss, but I'm begining to see effects that other people seem to come accross. The metabolism ebook's 25-35g carbs recommendation compared to potato bingeing (more stated in the digestion ebook) seems a bit on the confusing side, but my ultimate guess is that low carb is only useful for insulin resistance, and once the body overcomes that, it can switch between glucose-driven and fat-driven on a dime (of course, I could be totally wrong). What I don't understand, is why even with the same amount of calories (or more), mostly from fat, why might I regress, rather than simply not get better? Little confused on this part, but I do think I will up my carbs to see. Perhaps I simply haven't been getting enough fat, but I'm not sure. At least potatoes are cheaper than butter :-).
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About coconut milk, Half Navajo told me about Natural Value (non-organic) coconut milk which does not have any guar gum or presevatives. It's available on Amazon; I might get some in the future.
Please label yourselves! Else we are going to start calling you Dr. Hennfield Questioner, chl0e is getting too much fiber (times three), and lol'er. But seriously, it can get to be a pain.
I guess in sumary, it seems to me like for boosting metabolism, you could almost draw a graph estimating what reasonable carbohydrate intake amounts would be good, at each point in increasing the metabolism. Not quite sure on how it all works, but it definitely seems like low (or even a little above low) carbing stone walls at some point, and you simply need to up the carbs (unless you want to live ketogenic).
Oh, and Matt, great job on the latest podcast. Makes me want to read Nutrition and Physical Degeneration. You mentioned buying the book, but since it's so old, it's public domain in many countries (including the States), and can be read online here.
If anyone has the Vibram Five FIngers shoes and would like to answer a couple questions, I'd like to know
a) are they lightweight?
b) which of the three types do you have?
c)have you worn them in the rain or snow?
Also to Sega, you aren't getting enough fat. Any lower than 80% of your diet has just caused me to feel sluggish and gain weight.
It has been my experience that anyone who is put on a dose of dessicated thyroid will see improvement. If not, the dose is too low. My past experience dictates that synthetic T3 is bad in the long run, no exception.
If someone here has experience with T3 I would like to hear more from you. Have you seen an improvement in symptoms? A worsening of any? How long have you taken the medication and what dose?
I am just roaming around on the internet and have no desire for "profiles" or "chatting"
Ok but why is T3 bad in the long run? You're not being specific.
The advice given to me was to take T3 until my symptoms [of hypo] diminish.
So far as I can tell it raises my temperature every time I take it to at least a 98 range; that's only 4-6 mcg at a time, and I spread it out throughout the day. There's people taking 50-75-100 mcg a day in order to see their symptoms disappear; however, I am only on around 18 mcg per day.
The only problems I've heard from people is that they start to get hyPERthyroid symptoms – and that is the only thing that I see could happen with excess T3.. other than the liver seeing too much of it at a time and shutting off it's generation..hence, spreading it out throughout the day.
"Addressing chl0e and milk allergy only through milk additives, I personally have had stomach aches after having raw milk on its own. And I really don't think that the farmers are secretly adding in guar gum to the raw milk for any rational reason. I'm sure I would be more okay with milk now than before, but I still stay away from it (I do however, have tons of butter and seem to be fine)."
Guar gums are an allergen; not necessarily something that will only irritate your stomach. This could just be your own problems with milk, don't you think? I never meant to imply that everyone could tolerate milk without the added things – but that that is a reason largely for why more people experience benefit with raw milk. You have not seen benefits with either, I assume, and so this would be looking at a problem more associated with the body and why it wouldn't be able to handle actual milk, perhaps.
I'm not a runner, but you might find some of your answers about Vibrams on this website:
That sounds reasonable. It sounded like earlier you might have been saying that lactose intolerance did not exist, and that it was all in the additives. I agree that additives may becausing trouble for many people, though I have no idea as to how much and for how many.
In three days (maybe more, maybe less) I've gained 6 pounds of water and food weight (or had the most rapid fat gain I've ever heard of) and am not quite sure what to do. I'm thinking that I might not be able to handle much fiber, eggs, and dairy, but I'm also wondering more about wheat and/or gluten again (or fructans, who knows). I'm tempted to fall back on simply fasting till it subsides, but I'm not sure what would be best. Also wondering about salt intake, if upping it some might help or make it worse. It seems like water retention goes away faster when I am more physically active, but this seems quite strange. Perhaps the culprit was already removed, and I just need to wait it out; I don't know.
I would really appreciate some suggestions about the water retention. Wondering if coconut oil or butter (I know it's not from the lactose in my cultured butter) might be related, although I know of no biological reason. Everyone I know seems to say that I'm using far too much, but I'm not sure. My metabolism seems a little bit lower too, although I really don't know. My bowel movements were small and infrequent the past few days but finally kicked back up today.
Perhaps, I might try that again, but I really don't think it would be that for me. But maybe it would help, I'm not sure.
Nah, nah, I don't think that the allergens added to milk cause lactose intolerance. Lactose intolerance is not really an allergy.
I don't think water retention is caused by dairy or what have you, though..it is simply a hypothyroid problem. Hypos are very susceptible to an imbalance of water..sodium..potassium. Basically, the lack of carbon dioxide can be one thing that causes this swelling of the tissues – and this lack of CO2 is largely recognized in hypothyroid people..and why drinking water can easily upset the balance of sodium/potassium/etc. in them. Are you the one that said you preferred carbonated water? It could be for a reason.
Cutting out salt will only make things worse for the adrenals and thyroid. Sodium restriction is also in conjunction with high serotonin levels – something that is known to increase estrogen; estrogen known to increase cortisol and depress thyroid.
If your thyroid is hypo, it would be present in a temperature reading or your energy levels or sometimes heart rate.. a hypothyroid = a low metabolism.
"Jenny, it sounds like your implying that Chloe is somehow inferior and taking the easy route out just because she's decided to take the helpful leap in taking thyroid. I don't like that. It's like criticizing someone for wearing glasses when they need them to see. I'm glad that you were able to get well on food alone, but for many people that won't be enough."
I completely understand that. I wasn't criticizing. I wasn't pointing to any specific person. I was saying, when you are trying to fix your metabolism through diet alone, eating "natural" sugar in orange juice probably isn't a good idea. I think that people who are medicating may be able to get away with more in their diet. That's not a judgement, that's just the way I see it.
I'm not saying my path is better, it's just the one I'm trying to take.
I have isolated my variables. I think concentrated natural sugar was part of what contributed to my problems because it still seems to effect me. I go two three days with zero fructose and my sinuses will be completely clear. Nothing else gives me this effect.
My point at the end of my post was that sugar comes farther down the list of culprits below caloric restriction and too much exercise.
I still must say that, again, I took out all sugars for five or six months, and only recently have I added in T3. No, that doesn't mean I can 'get away' with eating sugars. I do not believe they did anything negative to my metabolism or thyroid when I added them in without the T3 – about a month earlier. Besides..the only thing I'd be getting away with is the symptoms people here suggest are the sugars fault – like spikes in blood sugar and the effect that has on the body.
As well, some people see no improvement on certain dessicated thyroids and they still can't eat whatever they want while on them.
It's nice that your sinuses cleared. You may think that it's the simple absence of sugar..but I saw no such change with mine when I took them out. I do not believe it's as basic as sugar or no sugar by any means.
i use to retain water bad when i was low carbing… really bad… i was like what the hell is going on, especially after i would go out drinking beers. It would make me want to fast, or go even lower carb to lose it…. what a never ending story that was. Once i ditched the low carb crap and started eating everything again… its been a problem of the past!!
to note though, since i dumped my low carbing my activity level has been off the charts…. so that may help also. I have been walking an average of about and hour to two a day, running somedays, and swimming in the ocean a shit load.
My only advice would be to eat everything, except complete crap, and get out and do something… quit thinking about things so much…. if that doesn't seem to work, maybe you do need some thyroid or adrenal support.
Luckily for me, all it took was adding back the carbs.
Do you eat any sugars now? Or only starches?
I have the effect, when I eat sugars or drink meal, it feels like all the muscles in my body are exhausted!
Where do you get your butter? Are you eating pasteurized only, or still sticking with the raw stuff? and where do you buy it from? Rawsome food co-op? You think that's a good place?
Oh and Troy, you said earlier that you have given up milk, coconut oil and gluten… So your diet is mainly potatoes and butter now? Could you give an example of "a day in your life"?
meal = milk
my diet is everything!! I thought i was having food allergies, thats why i was cutting things out here and there… but i explained in a earlier post that it was upper hiatal hernia causing by shortness of breath and some digestive issues. A few visits to my kiniesiologist/chiropractor and the problem was solved.
I eat mostly eggs, potatoes, sourdough bread, butter, carrots, broccoli, meat, beer, pizza, cheese, coconut oil, some fruits, pretty much anything that is a whole food is all game. I don't touch sugar… thats about it. I do drink coffee on occasion. As far as butter goes… i just buy organic euro style kind… if i go out i don't really care where its from as long as its real butter. I drink milk sometimes, i like raw goat milk the best, but around here i can only get the raw organic pastures kind, i drink whole pasteurized kind sometimes.
my weight has been the same ever since i dropped diets along time ago. I remember the initial weight gain was kinda alot… i went from 157lb low carb, tired, rundown 25 year old to almost 170lbs… but with an insane about of energy and optimism… and now i hover between 161 and 164 and i eat everything. I carry a good amount of muscle, i am lean, but not crazy lean,,, i retain just a tad bit of fat on my lower abdomen… stubborn fat… the only way to get rid of it would to starve myself or some kind of diet….. and i am not doing that shit again… its ridiculous. I am like matt, i don't think its that healthy to be crazy lean… i think your body keeps a tad bit of fat there for the just in case i am really starving scenerios. I overfeed big time sometimes and i stay the same weight.
I really think walking could help anyones metabolism… like i said i walk at least an hour a day… and sometimes run. I lift weights once or twice a week.. surf, swim, and sometimes i will go out and get crazy drunk with my friends!!
It really is all balance… for me… anyways. Just stay away from refined sugar, veggie oils, and most people will be fine. I know there are some people with specific allergans, so stay away from those… but don't diet. Some people do need thyroid support, go for it.
Once again, you guys never cease to impress me with the commentary.
I apologize for not being around much to interject. Summer is almost over. A month from now and I'll be more attentive to the computer I promise.
Sounds like Brock and Jenny are firmly on the no-sugar side of things – natural or otherwise. Some of you certainly have the idea right on. Natural sugars, even rapidly-absorbed juices such as OJ, are certainly not the root cause of health problems. I believe that highly-refined sugars, a low-nutrient diet, dieting, and potentially polyunsaturates (although not firmly convinced) are the root causes of health problems and the cross-generational degeneration trend.
It's true that hypoglycemia, insulin resistance, and other problems that are aggravated by simple sugars – particularly fructose, were treated by guys like Starr and Barnes by bringing the metabolism up. A healthy metabolism = good glucose metabolism. In that sense, a person with a healthy metabolism can tolerate all the natural sugars they like. It would be difficult to do harm with natural sugars. Many traditional peoples ate fruit and had no problems with it. If you have crappy glucose metabolism; however, fructose is probably the worst choice, in any form (natural sugars always seem to cause both my girlfriend and I more trouble than even sucrose btw), are probably the worst choice in the carbohydrate realm.
As for those asking for "is this many taters and butter too much?" it has more to do with appetite than anything else. If your appetite is suggesting to you that you eat more calories than you think is suitable, don't argue with it. Appease your appetite however, and it will decrease over time. Eat less than you desire, and it is likely to continue rising if studies on calorie restriction and force-feeding as well as much anecdotal evidence suggests.
Dr. Henny – thanks for stopping by and giving your direct feedback. Because I am not a licensed practitioner of any kind, I'm of course very lacking in one-on-one observation of how patients respond to T3 vs. dessicated. I only know what I read, and the information I've come across is perfectly in sync with what your experience has been. I have no choice but to agree with you fully for the time being.
Troy, you may be on to something with those shoes. I've had the urge to stop wearing shoes with big heals (like hiking boots). They are quite possibly the stupidest and most unnatural design possible for footwear. Ramiel Nagel of "Cure Tooth Decay" and "Healing Our Children" really got me interested in that whole concept – along with the infamous Chuck "Steak" Washington.
Teran, once again I apologize for any confusion that 180 Metabolism has caused you. I warned in that book about going too low in carbohydrates. It's true that keeping carbohydrates in a lower parameter is probably a more balancing starting point for someone with pronounced carbohydrate metabolism issues. The 25-35 grams per meal recommendation is seeming to be unsustainable for most, myself included. I would think as a young and thin male this would be even more true.
I won't respond to the Ray Peat stuff at the moment (but hope to post something specific to Peat's dogmas by year's end), but I can tell you that ingested lactic acid doesn't necessarily mean that it remains as lactic acid and has the same function as that produced by the muscles. Making that kind of conclusion is similar to thinking that eating cholesterol will raise your cholesterol level when no such correlation has ever existed.
Anyway, thanks again for the truly remarkable and intelligent discussion (not to discredit the commentor who suggested Drew do something perverse to his man pebbles). Heads up for another low-carb post coming in the next day or two.
And Brock, your responses are all right on schedule to have a Troy-like experience. You are feeling better, thinking better, because you are better. I dare you to see where this leads over the course of months!
About the Vibram Five Fingers: These are apparently the new IT shoe as they are basically sold out everything here (in Oklahoma). I dont know about elsewhere but finding ANY color of the KSO type in a 41-43 has been next to impossible. I tried on the Sprint type and though I only wore them for a few minutes, I loved them (I want the KSO kind because I want them to completely cover my foot). Once I find 41-43 in the KSO so I can figure out exactly my size, Im definitely buying them. Ive always hated shoes, and in my college days went barefoot to class any time it was warm enough (Ive even worn nice, expensive button down shirts and nice jeans, but no shoes). My girlfriend's dad (an Iron man triathlete, by the way) has some and wears them everywhere now. I definitely recommend trying them out and seeing if they work for you
I think you're right. Weight gain is already leveling off, just a few pounds past where I panicked and jumped ship last time. I'm up to 243.7 this morning, but that's where I've been for 4-5 days after nothing but gains every day before that.
Further my appetite has suddenly retreated in the last couple days so that I've returned to eating meals maybe 20% larger than pre-180 instead of 50% larger (as needed to satisfy appetite prior to that). But energy remains good and I really enjoy my walks each evening.
I'm not entirely sure where I'm going to end up, or when I'll get there, but I like the direction – and the food! I wish I could join Troy for some surfing in the morning, but alas, I live in New Jersey.
Just as a side note, you may (or may not) know that desiccated thyroid is currently unavailable throughout the entire country. The manufacturer thinks they're about 90 days behind on orders due to unexpected demand increases (Damn you, Dr. William Davis!). Local pharmacies aren't even taking further orders right now. So, regardless of my preferences, 180 Advice is going to get at least 3 months to cure me without help – despite my persistent low body temperature. I'm a walking experiment! I'll let you know how it goes.
Matt, may I ask why it is you are not fully convinced that poly and other unsaturated fats are not a viable reason for health decay? It's one thing to say you're not convinced, and another to explain it.
For sugars; are you saying that a healthy metabolism is the only way someone will tolerate sugars? It doesn't match with what my experience is. I mean, I practically know I'm hypothyroid, and I don't experience any direct symptoms with natural sugars of hypoglycemia or insulin resistance. In fact, I get shaky when I'm very stressed – carbs or no carbs involved. This would make sense if cortisol and other adrenal hormones are big factors hovering over blood sugar control.
And you say that you had improved your metabolism and thyroid, yet you seem to think you have trouble with sugars (as you had suggested to eat fruit and natural sugars sparingly). So I'm having trouble understanding your train of thought on this subject.
I also don't get why you are agreeing with a claimed Doctor who didn't have any explanation for why T3 was worse than dessicated thyroid. He basically just said so, and that was it. I would like it if you shared what you've read regarding why T3 is bad, or encourage this guy to more fully explain himself.
Another thing, as I'm probably the biggest Peat fan here (haha), what do you think is dogmatic about him?
The lactic acid?
Cholesterol, in fact, can be raised by dietary cholesterol. I believe I was informed that in a study done with healthy people, it took an average 22 eggs to raise serum cholesterol. What would be the other reason (other than the rabbit study) for doctors claiming cholesterol raises serum cholesterol? Of course it can be raised by dietary cholesterol – a little amount in the wrong bodily environment can; and given a ton ton ton (as present in that experiment) it can. Dietary cholesterol is not the cause of health decay, though, you and I definitely know that; but most of these doctors think that ever so wrongly. It still doesn't mean, coming from the diet, that cholesterol doesn't effect serum levels. Otherwise, lowering it would not effect certain people- and I would have some people I know more convinced of why it's silly to avoid it for true health.
The real dogma is in people who believe, who see this study on rabbits or hear the explanation, and believe cholesterol alone causes problems in human beings – when the body is more complex than that, and much more tolerable of cholesterol than rabbits, obviously.
As for lactic acid..a trace amount usually always in the blood can be raised if the liver's energy is depleted or low from converting lactic acid to glucose, or if there is too little thyroid and B1 vitamin as some other factors. I haven't experimented enough to know if this is true for me–that lactic acid from food gives me problems. Peat's own example was his consistent headaches that vanished when he removed the fermented dairy products. I'd appreciate it if you did read his full article on Lactate.
Brock, you can find dessicated thyroids on foreign internet websites. Most American products, I've heard, aren't the best/strongest anyway.
Chloe, any recommendations?
Cynoplus is like the Mexican version of Armour- you can find it at http://www.mymexicandrugstore.com
Matt, I agree with ChlOe, it would be great if you could write a little more about all those bad things you read about T3. Especially as there are quite some people here taking this. Thx!
Seriously Matt, I wish you would get rid of the anonymous option. It is not only annoying but confusing to read too.
Now as for the T3 deal; if someone does not do well on it their adrenals need to be checked. May people go hyper on small amounts of desiccated thyroid or T3 because their adrenals are shot. I am one of those. I could not even tolerate 30mg of armour without adrenal treatment. My adrenals have been very badly damaged from severe mental stress along with the physical stress of never having my hypo diagnosed mfor years and years. So, I need adrenal support.
Also, most people do not go on T3 for life. Most people are on it for up to as year to clear out a high reverse T3 before returning to desiccated thyroid.
Brock – you can still get desiccated thyroid:
Anyone interested in T3 therapy should have a look at dr. Lowe's website. He, along with many of his patients, has had much success with long term T3 therapy.
Really, I could almost skip Matt's posts and just read the comments, which are often so hilarious. (I happened to have LIKED 'cranky' personally.)
Matt, I am fond personally of the idea that perhaps 'unhealthy' means malnutritioned and perhaps 'recovery' means continually over-feeding 'nutrients' to the body. (I do think that your plea to maintain calories by excusing ice cream etc. only harms your cause though. Yes I see your point but you must know the vast majority of the population will miss it conveniently and it hardly makes you seem health or nutrition focused as a priority if you're recommending eating destructive crap rather than be a few hundred calories short. Eating peanut butter would probably be a better suggestion, for example, since fat and protein and carbs and calories are all heavy in that.)
I just found your blog, but just a couple weeks ago bought more supplements than any human should have. As I eat whole-foods my fridge is already overfull and now the whole dang door is supplements. I need another fridge…
What I'm wondering is if this general philosophy might not be better served with supplements than eat-everything-in-sight-that-doesn't-have-PUFA/fructose. I'm not saying supplements are better than 'real food', I don't think they are. I'm saying that real food that isn't meat/dairy (and even much that is), particularly in today's world, is not particularly dense in nutrients. We are getting nearer to homeopathic dilutions at this point…
If the goal is to "drench the cells with nutrients for awhile" as a healing process, it seems to me that serious supplementation is probably a big need. At least if this isn't supposed to take ten years of getting really fat before the body is expected to be 'healed' enough.
And, that the sheer quantity of food you might have to ingest to get halfway near the nutrition you really need might be massive (particularly given the above point) which has its own problems.
And that there are other things to consider when it comes to eating food, namely, that it's wonderful if FoodX has some of a certain nutrient, but if it also sends your blood sugar through the roof (and then crashing through the basement) it's not going to be a good net effect — bearing in mind we're talking about people who already have some kind of food-related health issue here.
I think what I'm saying is that while I like and agree with your primary philosophy of "nutrient-rich feeding", in my world, corn and potatoes and white rice I would not feed to any creature I did not intend to eat once they were fat enough. Eating mostly carbs (I was even vegatarian for awhile) and grains greatly contributed to making me fat and giving me blood sugar issues, and I know exactly how I react to "eating crap like potatoes, whole-grain pasta, corn and rice" even now — because I do it now and then simply because I really like the taste of them — it does little but trash my body in several ways.
Next point: Commenters here would be doing Matt a favor by not treating every diverse opinion as a troll and not referring to even questioners as 'haters'. It's very Jerry-Springer-ish and are-you-over-12-ish and that really isn't necessary.
(continued – pj)
I do have to agree with a couple previous commenters. This is essentially an eating plan based on what worked for one person. That's fabulous, I'm all for people sharing what works for them, and it may work for many other people. Those who are now living on rice and potatoes and store bought orange juice and feeling great, that's what works for one person, then. That may work for other people too. But there are ALWAYS individuals who can do any-damn-thing and feel great and look great, as another guy said earlier.
My cousins on one side of the family live on pizza and beer and candy and look like sports models. The other side of the family seems to gain fat cells merely by witnessing carbs at a distance. There is far too much individual variation in humans to 'assume' that merely because thingX works for one person, that it will work for all. Even if Matt's ideas are the revolution of health, they have still got to be applied within the context of what works for that person. If you have blood sugar issues and you eat pure starch/sugar foods or you are intolerant to grains and you eat bread, it isn't rocket science to see that this approach is not going to be ideal for you. You could probably still use his approach but some intelligent discrimination about choosing foods wisely does not seem unreasonable to expect.
As a last point, another one made earlier is worth repeating I think. In any endeavor but especially things treated like religions such as food intake tends to be, it is critical to have progress points along the way. The worst ideas are always those were religious certainty replaces intelligent evaluation of results: where when you don't get the results you expect, it's just a matter of "faith" and "holding out" or the implication that there is some fundamental flaw in the person, not the plan. I have seen a lot of damage done on a lot of levels by people using this kind of approach (to many things including food). There ought to be some emphasis made on attempting to come up with markers of improving health, improving metabolism, or whatever. Otherwise it is more than reasonable that there ought to be some timeframe for hedging bets here. If I eat like this and get immensely fat or fatter, annihilate my blood sugar stability with all the potatoes and rice, exactly how long, how many pounds, how close to diabetes, do I need to get before I decide that maybe this approach isn't working for me?
How long should one hold out "based on faith" that someone with a radically different body had a personal experience that worked for him–which doesn't imply it'll work for me, any more than my cousin's diet works for me? I'm not saying that 180dH is any different than any other eating plan in this respect. I think there is a fundamentally important point here about nutrient-ing the body rather than further-starving it. I think anything including low-fat and low-carb and everything else can be overdone to the point of harm (depending more on the individual biochemistry of the person, probably, than the eating plan).
I like the idea. But the details above plus the nature of many common commenters make it sound a little more like a cult than an eating plan in places. If this is an effective way to restore health and metabolism there should be 'marker points' — not in time (that'll vary by person) but in effect/experience — that an individual can use for evaluating their results. And a time where if those are not happening, it can be fairly considered that a person should do something differently. Maybe same plan, different food choices, but something different.
As it seems now, there is nothing like that. Just commenters eating crappy food and assuring the world that they feel great so that's the answer. Matt I think your setting some guidelines along these lines would make your overall plan a little safer for the general public, particularly since the primary market you are reaching for are *already those with health problems.*
You are brilliant and I agree with you 100%. Every eating plan says its way is the best and ONLY way. We are all individual though, and need to find our own way. I like your idea of mega supplementing.
as I recall, supplements are not the same as food. So you would be correct that they aren't as good. They aren't as good because of the fact that a lot of the population can have allergies from the supplements they're given.
If you buy the right food, it will have a lot of nutrients in it. More than factory farmed or conventionally farmed food; if you look for it!
The only problem is also not just a lack of nutrients alone; I think eating enough is also important.. as well, what foods effect the thyroid and hormones are important, I mean, that's just in my opinion. And I can evaluate more if you like.
I must pick a bone with you that carbohydrates don't "cause" fat gain or sugar spikes. Blood sugar and insulin are effected by other things. I've heard of a diabetic being cured (or, helped) with Nutritional yeast and methods to lower their cortisol and other stress hormones.
If you aren't one to believe that food isn't direct, I must disagree there, too. Trying to remove carbs entirely when I was vegan did help loose weight, I think, but that may also be from calories. However, when I went on a nothing but fruit eating phase (and attempting to eat a lot more calories), that's when I then went underweight. People who have diabetes have also said to be helped or "cured" by eating nothing but fruit.
It is impossible to say that carbs cause insulin spikes – and that's it. Fat storage is not that simple. It may seeeeem simple, but I really don't think it's that simple. Or else the cutting out carbs would lower everyone's insulin and everyone would loose weight and not have blood sugar spikes. If I did that now, and ate enough calories, I guarantee I would just gain weight and be worse. A balance is important, and while lowering carbs may allow someone to loose weight, it doesn't mean automatic hormone balance nor great health.
So it's an avoidance, really. Unless low carb truly balances out the hormones, and is working with thyroid, I don't see how carbohydrates cause fat gain for anyone. If they seem to directly, I fully believe there is a hidden problem that has to do with thyroid and hormones and that whole jig.
Because everyone may have different diets, but we all have an endocrine system. We all have history, too, which I think should be considered a lot more than DNA or genes or whatever because I really do not believe they are very determining for any individual for what they can eat. Weston Price showed this clearly, as one example.
I myself don't find that I can clearly pick out what food causes what problems that I currently have.
While I agree that people are different, I only think that's mostly because of their past food intake (including what they recieved while they grew in a womb) and lifestyle.
I mean, if two people drink the same amount of arsenic, and one person dies, and one person doesn't – can we really blame that on DNA and genes.. Or is one person just less able to fight off the poison, say, if they had a weaker system caused by this or that.
Not to compare arsenic with food, but that was just an example of how people can handle things differently and it won't depend on their genes – and if it's bad it's bad; nothing should be non-universal for people for no reason (or, the reason of DNA). We are one species!