Hello boys and girls! It’s your ol? pal Matt! I’m back and I’ve got a whole collection of lil? stories to wrap up our nice session of Low-Carb tales. But don’t worry. We’ll be discussing low-carb diets, when they may be and may not be appropriate, and much more till the end of time?
As always, my comments are in RED
I.
Hi Matt,
My Carb War story is on going, and the process of becoming one long. I’ll try my best to make this as short as possible. My story is a bit chaotic. Please bear with me!
I was a vegan (and at times raw vegan) for about 5 years. Before that I ate very little meat. My diet primarily consisted of carbs in the form of pasta, rice, bread and potatoes. I decided to go the vegan route because I just didn’t feel well, and my weight was getting out of control. I was also borderline diabetic. I have a long history of diabetes in my family (Great Grandma, Grandma, and Mom). The initial loss of weight from doing a high raw diet was great. About 60 pounds, my face was clear, my allergies and asthma subsided. I even did a 92 day ?Juice Feast?. Felt great. Life was good . . . so I thought.
92 days? 92 days!!! That’s amazing. And yes, my experiments with mostly raw vegan fare and juicing were also electrifying at first. But then I uh, wasted away and became an emotional basketcase, with my days alternating between ?best ever? to ?worst ever.
About 3 months after said Juice Feast I began to put on weight, I was tired, and working out was a chore. I still remained active doing summer boot camps, Bikram Yoga, and interval training. However, no matter how much I did, my weight would never go below a certain point. I thought this was strange since I was still overweight. I chalked it up to not getting enough calories on the Juice Feast and a lowing of my metabolism. I decided that I needed some professional diet help. I had a sinking feeling that I had really screwed myself up.
Ah, adrenal fatigue. Metabolic retaliation in response to starvation ? not just calories but fats and protein restriction ? as well as a few missing nutrients.
My trainer introduced me to a program that designs a plan for you based on genetic makeup. I did blood tests to identify my food sensitivities. I was muscle tested for deficient minerals, and I was encouraged to systematically start eating meat again. From the results of my testing it was deduced that I am a fast oxidizer, I’m insulin resistant, I have poor digestion, and I’m producing too much estrogen. All good things to know!
Didn’t need a test to know you were insulin resistant, also the cause of your high estrogen levels.
Every week I was given a new food goal. By week 5 I was eating only meat, vegetables, and oils with a free meal every 5 days. I was actually feeling pretty good! By week ten I was encouraged to eat primarily meat, veggies and oils with a protein goal of 349 grams per day! Yikes! That week, all my digestive issues skyrocketed, and I was a very unhappy girl. I seriously started to freak out because one, I couldn’t wrap my head around such a crazy protein goal, two, I felt horrible, and three my trust in the program after receiving such a crazy goal started to waver.
349 probably wasn’t specific enough of a target. You probably needed to hit exactly 349.24587 grams per day to get it just right. Como se dice WTF? 349 grams! Was your trainer a former Sumo wrestler?
The next 3 weeks of attempting to eat 349 gram protein goal were not good. I eventually told my consultant that the goal was insane, and I refused to believe my ancestors ate that much protein in one day. I mean 349 grams of protein is like eating two whole rotisserie chickens a day. She begged to differ. I wasn’t allowed to have anything else like nuts or berries until I had reached the goal. I just didn’t get it. Oh, I forgot to mention that my carb intake was limited to only 50 grams per day. This was instituted by about week 5.
Nice, a 7 to 1 protein to carb ratio. Sounds delicious. Can’t believe you had digestive problems on this totally sane-sounding regimen.
By week fourteen I was on the web looking for more info. This is when I found your site. I bought the two e-books, and read through the blog. I bought the Broda Barnes book, and have been taking my temp (started out at 96.5 degrees). Also read the whole Weston Price book as well. I was seriously looking for answers because I didn’t know what to believe.
But hopefully you knew, by that point, what NOT to believe. At least that experiment will make you less subservient to some bogus authority. Now you can start putting the pieces together for yourself.
As it stands, I’m on week 16 and currently weigh 10 pounds heavier than when I started the program. I get in around 120-140 grams of protein a day. I’m lucky if I have one bowel movement per day, and I’m more confused than ever. I’ve learned many great things while on my program but the protein part seems a bit flawed, especially for someone who was a vegan for such a long time. I only had 12 weeks to become a meat eater again, and a rather huge meat eater at that. I feel as though I’ve actually done myself a disservice with all this meat, but it’s hard sifting through the info and coming to a conclusion that works for me. I’m glad I’m back on the meat because I believe it’s necessary to my diet, but to what extent have I jacked my metabolism up even more due to excess protein and lack of carbs! I’m banking on the validity of your info more and more everyday.
Well, you don’t sound like a total wreck, but a dose of dietary sanity would do you some good. There’s no need for you to eat so much protein unless you really crave it. If you do really crave it, I bet that craving won’t last for more than a few months, but obey it nonetheless.
I’ve started to add more oil to my diet. I still need to include more carbs. I have a serious carb phobia at the moment since I was told that I should never eat carbs based on my genetics. I don’t do the cow butter thing since I have sensitivity to everything from the cow, but I have tried incorporating goat butter. I’m still a little wary on goat butter since I was told that it increases insulin levels. I’m not sure I can do the sedentary thing as I enjoy my dance classes, power yoga and sprinting. I just feel better doing them. However, I’m willing to slow down if I’m truly hurting myself in the process.
Soooo, this is my carb war story. What a mess huh! :P
The sedentary thing is not a life sentence. Sometimes a break is great for healing in the short-term. It allows your adrenals to rest and your metabolism to recharge itself. Carbs may be poison to someone with insulin resistance in the very short-term, but that needs to be overcome, and hiding from carbs is a weak answer to that problem. Any diet that incorporates modest amounts of all the macronutrient groups, and isn’t too highly weighted to one extreme is probably a much better bet in the long-run. With the improvement in metabolism that comes with nourishing yourself from all the macronutrient groups, avoiding stimulants, drugs, and refined sugar, and avoiding undue strain upon yourself comes a lessening of insulin resistance and the rest should fall into place nicely. Keep monitoring your temperature closely for signs of improvement ? as well as any outwardly symptoms.
II. (not exactly a low-carb story)
Been reading your blog for awhile, new journey for me but loving it. Thanks for all your research and honest reporting, I wished I could have found it years ago, but better late than never. I will apologize for my editing and punctuation, but was a little impatient typing this out. I live in Knoxville,TN. It seems you’ve tramped through here a few times. If you’re in the area again and want to meet up or ever need help (emergency food on the trail, a ride somewhere) feel free to send a line…it’s the least I could do.
You had me at ?food.
Some questions and comments for you. Yeah, it’s a long one. I actually tried to keep it brief, easily could expand! Please read and comment…
Ever since I was a child I have been plagued with stomach aches, severe cramping, nausea, sweating, chills, etc. These have come and gone over the years and I’ve never been able to get them completely figured out. A few years ago, I decided to stop just accepting this and try to find a root cause. I was always “health conscious”, but never excluded any food group or dieted. About ten years ago, I started working in a health food store and converted to buying all the clean foods, no preservatives, dyes, artificial flavorings, colorings, and cut out chemicals in cleaning and bathroom products. My skin had always been sensitive, strong smells bothered me, and was always prone to “weird skin reactions”, never emergency situations. I’ve always known I had major environmental allergies-pollens, danders, dusts. I do feel all this has gotten better over the years, and one year I was able to treat my allergies with high doses of quercetin only.
Since then, I’ve been medicine free. I still get symptoms, I just tolerate them. Then I started to have more psychological problems, depression, anger, lots of lethargy, and brain fog.
Poor glucose tolerance.
On some whim, I tried a week long juice fast and was thrilled with the results. I resumed my previous diet, but the results from that fast stuck with me. A year later, my health was to the point I was desperate and didn’t want to be stuck on meds. I had always believed food as medicine. Thinking there was something to the juicing, I started my raw food phase. Again, initially it was okay, but never great. Brain fog and digestion worsened. But I persevered, thinking it was due to one food group. I played around with the low fat vs. high fat camp, more greens, more fruit, more periods of juicing, and all the different combos. It seemed some things bothered me worse than others–mostly nuts and dried fruit. At times the bloating was so painful and severe it hurt to bend over let alone try to button my pants.
Social situations were becoming more stressful due to the gassiness and pain. Near the end of a year I decided to train for a triathlon, a sprint distance.
A triathlon. Perfect! Sounds like something I would’ve done back in my raw-ish vegetarian days.
Knowing the fruit and veg couldn’t sustain me through this, a friend was working this whole high fat meat thing, and again being desperate, I knew I had to switch. I also decided to do some testing. A gastroenterologist had me do a fructose intolerance test which came back positive and a SIBO test which after he admitted he doesn’t think is useful. I also had blood and skin allergy testing done. Thinking I could figure these things out, I first cut out all fruits and veg. For a period of time I was eating a few veg, but as some stomach symptoms continued I decided to remove them all. At this point, the major bloating, gas, and cramps disappeared. These actually weren’t what I had experienced throughout my life, just during the raw trial. After removing the fruit/veg, actually I didn’t have any gas problems. But I would still get these episodes of severe cramping, which I later realized felt like my body trying to expel whatever was in my stomach. It would start by making me very tired, to the point of having to lie down, then waves of nausea and burping where I wished I could have puked, cramps would then start and escalate to the point where I HAD to use the bathroom. Diarrhea would commence and only recently did I realize this was mucus. I might be slightly worn out after these episodes, but then things would be fine. Like one of those intense, dark summer storms, where ten minutes after it started if it wasn’t for the puddles on the ground you’d have no idea it just stormed. So, I wondered if it was some type of food intolerance and worked on removing the lists of things I had been allergic to, plus other things I didn’t seem to tolerate well. If I stick to a diet of starch (usually white rice or potatoes and sometimes millet), a protein (usually beef), and copious amounts of beef fat (i just received a 16 pound box of tallow from wellness meats) for a long enough time I can get to feeling really good. However, being this such a limiting diet, when I cheat my other symptoms come back. Namely, the stomach thing. Also, I can get that spacey/tired feeling after eating, will never feel satiated just get hungrier. This doesn’t happen with the rice/beef/fat, I will actually get to the point where I am full and then know the next time when I am hungry. Cravings go away and all is good. Eventually, I get a little bored and thinking that I’m doing good will “cheat”. This just leads to something else, and then I’m back where I started again. Dairy (and I’ve done trials of raw milk and sheep’s milk) makes me extremely constipated. Once I stop eating it and it’s finally expelled, then I get one of those stomach spells. Dairy, fruit, sugar, eggs, and wheat (and I’m sure there are others) all turn me into a crack whore where I can’t stop wanting and eating them, I can be uncomfortably full and still think about nothing else, just like an addict. But this doesn’t happen with the rice,potato, millet. Dairy and eggs give me the stomach spells, fruit just gives me the runs, sugar and wheat don’t create stomach problems.
Interesting complex of symptoms. There’s no way that your body is processing gluten and casein properly, leaving free-floating morphines cruising through your system. Not a crack whore, but an opium whore. It is another of the root causes of the psychological symptoms you have I’d bet.
So if you’ve been kind enough to read through all this, here’s where I’m stuck. I’ve been reading so much on your site and others, like whole health source. Your current stance seems to lie on the metabolism as root cause. I’ve also read where your digestion problems and allergies are a thing of the past. Did you have environmental allergies or food? Do you even believe that food allergies or intolerances are a real thing, and if so can they be overcome through any type of a diet? For myself I am just questioning whether it’s based on my metabolism…or if certain foods will always cause me problems. I would love to expand my diet, can you give me some opinions. I can picture you cringing at certain points reading this, so if something seems pretty off to you please point it out. I’m not as desperate as I once was and feel way more stable then I ever was. Then there’s part of me that wonders if mental strain/lifestyle stresses have an impact on
digestion and I’m barking up the wrong tree. However, some of my troubles I can definitely see as food related I just wonder if I’ve taken that road as far as I can. Rereading this I am afraid of repeating patterns, like in the raw phase always thinking it’s because of so and so. And that just wasn’t the case. I’ve tried to reason based on bodily symptoms and reactions. This is where more of an expert, non-biased opinion could be of value. Please help to set me in the right direction.
Well, no human being could read this and give you pinpoint accuracy in terms of what you need to do. Obviously your body didn’t respond very well to the digestive difficulty of consuming a ton of raw roughage. Wheat and dairy are bound to be problematic for a while, but many believe, myself included, that such sensitivities can be overcome.
In general, my stance is not to necessarily put all your energy on what you can and cannot eat, but identify what does and does not give you problems and get determined to overcome those issues over time. Although Natasha Campbell-McBride’s book, Gut and Psychology Syndrome is far from well-written, her general advice to emphasize saturated fats while eating a gluten and dairy free diet is pretty sound. Other than that, you may need some ?outside? help with troubleshooting some of your glandular issues via glandular supplementation. This is your own puzzle to solve, but you seem very astute at figuring it out. Keep us posted as you progress in the comments sections of the blog posts. There is always a pretty good stew of ideas floating around here and a large armada of folks to shoot down B.S. that is overly extreme, likely to cause long-term damage, and so on. Like um, eating a raw diet and doing a boatload of juice fasts. They are great once or twice a year, but usually dead end in a big way ? particularly in the digestive and emotional categories as you have discovered.
III.
Well Matt Stone, I think you might receive many more low-carb stories in the near future, but in case you don’t here is my Carb War. I am 5’5, female, 125 lbs with a healthy BMI however I’d like to lose a good 5 lbs and keep it off.
I have been on a high-fat diet for about a month now. I ferment cream ? la Hyperlipid to remove lactose and eat loads of peanut butter, butter, eggs, olive oil and extremely small and ridiculous amounts of meat, and vegetables. I have no energy, I always look bored or uninterested and I’m actually gaining weight. I don’t even eat as many calories as I would on a regular SAD diet, yet I am gaining, gassy, unhappy and sluggish. I finally have clear skin and my joint pain in my bad knee is completely gone. I just wish I could find a way to actually lose weight on this diet. I can’t seem to tolerate any significant quantity of meat including fish, or concentrated carbs like sugars or starches (including grains and potatoes and squashes), fiber, fruit, milk, cheese or even egg whites without experiencing back pain, knee pain, acne, restlessness and irritability. The only problem I have with my high-fat diet is weight gain. I don’t even really know what I’m asking for in particular, I feel I have honestly tried almost every possible diet known to man (feel free to ask, seriously, I have tried it all). I guess I’m still hoping it’s possible to not experience knee pain or acne while eating what the people I’m with are. I’m just tired of being anti-social because of a diet. It’s worth it in many ways, but is there a way to have it all?
Sounds like you were in need of some good fats. There’s no doubt it can be quite medicating, especially to things like joint pain. Still, you’re not eating any carbohydrates, and it sounds like you’re getting that low-carb grog and puffy thing going. I’m sure you have a pretty low basal temperature (below 97.8 under the armpit). That’s probably the root cause for your many problems and the black hole of dietary sensitivities that you’ve fallen into. You may find as you troubleshoot minor thyroid and adrenal issues with glandular supplementation that you are released from dietary prison. I’d say it’s worth a shot for someone who has already exhausted diet in so many ways. That is, of course, if you can’t find a way to incorporate carbohydrates in with your fat and protein. Try giving the starch + fat thing one more good shot. At first, you will feel worse no doubt. Give it several weeks of persistence this time. If there’s absolutely no improvement whatsoever during that period, it may be glandular time. Really give it a good go though first. As many have reported when going ?high-everything,? the first few weeks can be pretty rough.
At 5?5? 125 I wouldn’t worry about weight. If you truly want to get off restricted diets and be a real person once again with your buds, you’re going to have to ignore your weight for several months to a year. Weight is the last thing to fall into place once the other systems have been repaired it seems.
IV.
Hi Matt,
I pop in on your blog from time to time. I stumbled across you when I was researching another diet at one point. Right now your blog seems to be sort of a war on low carb, and I’m trying to understand. I’m sure low carb is not the be-all and end-all of human nutrition, but I know so many people who have done spectacularly well on it, and I’m talking about *years* – not just a few months of weight loss. One who in the course of 3 years went from 310 pounds to running in and completing the NY Marathon, and embarking on a new career as a personal trainer (still maintains her loss and works out, eating her low carb diet, 10 years down the road), another who lost 170 pounds on low carb and when I last lost touch with her she had kept the weight off for 6 years. Another who lost 125 pounds and has now been maintaining for 5 years. And these three were all middle-aged women, as I am.
There’s no doubt that many low-carb stories are not war stories at all, but great successes. The point of this series of posts is to get insights on when low-carb diets are appropriate and inappropriate. I would venture to say that most of your friends did induce starvation and lost a lot of weight via low-carb’s hunger-killing effect, and I believe that will catch up with them. I’m sure their diets, calories and carbs aside, are better than a typical diet.
I’m interested in their story as I also have over 100 pounds to lose! So the stories of “big losers” interest me. But weight loss does not seem to happen for me. I like low carb as I enjoy all the foods allowed on it, and it does not cause my blood sugar to spike – and it goes through the roof when I eat most “carby” foods. I’m not starving every single waking minute of the day (as I was when I attempted a doctor-recommended low-fat diet at one point) but I don’t think I’m suffering from the problem of too few calories. I know many low carbers who do say they almost have to remind themselves to eat with an alarm clock, and struggle to get in 1000 calories a day, but I have never been in that category. I enjoy my fats too much, and take in plenty of butter, tallow, lard, bacon grease and coconut oil – all major favorites. That keeps my calories generally in the 2500-3000/daily range, though it varies. A few days ago my intake was only 1600 calories but yesterday it was over 4000! (I went on a bacon pig-out).
I’m not an ultra-low carber or zero carber, but generally keep my carbs in the 50-70g/day range. This seems to make me feel best. It’s about the range recommended by Barry Groves, Mark Sisson and some others whose names escape me. I know Broda Barnes recommends not dropping below 50g day for optimum thyroid functioning. Some days I do drop below it but it’s not my intention to do so, and I try to add more carbs if it seems I’ll be going too low. I eat meats, fish, eggs, veggies, nuts, nut butters, raw cream, cheeses from raw milk (I have gluten issues so avoid grains), avocados, plus plenty of the fats mentioned above. I try to keep my protein under 100g/daily as I have blood sugar issues if I eat too much protein also. Fat is my Friend in the calorie department.
Broda was a big fan of high-fat diets for weight loss. He went on to say that he never saw a person highly overweight fail to lose weight on his diet ? which was high in fat by percentage of calories, but restricted total energy. In other words, it was a high-fat, low-calorie diet, which he actually felt did not exacerbate symptoms of hypothyroidism. It is possible that the fat released from the adipose tissue creates a calorie surplus despite limited intake, circumventing the yo-yo effect as I proposed in 180 Metabolism. Still, I’m very wary of low-calorie diets over the long-term, but it might be worth a try.
And overall I feel excellent. I just can’t seem to lose any weight. But I have never been able to no matter what method I try, it seems. So I admit to being jealous of my friends who found weight-loss so spectacularly easy to do and to maintain on a low-carb eating plan. I know so many of them. I’m just not one of them. :-(
Feeling excellent is important too. Let’s not forget. But don’t get too engrossed in low-carb dogma. Be flexible. It may not be the right route for you. Then again, Charles Washington might be your messiah, but I doubt it. I’d feel much more at ease knowing that you had fixed your poor carbohydrate metabolism and blood sugar surge-tendencies rather than hidden from them in fear and declared them ?el Diablo!
Thanks everyone for participating in this lengthy saga. Let’s move on shall we?
Hey Matt,
Nice to hear some stories of people recovering from diet delusion. I myself am one of these folks, and I have written recently on my blog about my own personal health journey.
Thanks everyone for sharing your stories, and thanks, Matt, for posting them!
Matt – whats your stance on salt? Do you eat it all the time? Only at one meal? How often and how much?
I get excessive hair growth and really thick hair all over my body if I eat it, just a couple of grams for a couple of days. My hair starts growing like weeds if I eat lots of salt. I also get extremely thirsty, get dry skin and get dandruff/psoriasis symptoms. I have isolated my variables and it happens every time.
Will this "salt" effect only last temporarily? I have restricted salt in the past. But, then again, I also had dandruff/dry skin when I was a kid, and back then I did eat salt (or at least so I Remember).
I have tried only unrefined sea salt, so I don't think it's the quality. Oh and I eat plenty of butter and cream (like 1 pound per day) so I don't think its a lack of fat that I get dry skin, psoriasis, weird growing hair.
Hi Matt
I'm re-posting Chloe's comment from Carb Wars 3 because I feel like she has a good argument on sugars and deserves a response, being a loyal reader and all that:
Chloe said,
"Hey Matt,
I just heard your podcast, and I am pretty baffled by your assumptions about Ray Peat. I feel like you're not giving the debating over sugar much chance or effort. You made it sound as if Ray Peat is going on recommending Haagen-Dazs to everyone (or that's all he's about), when he doesn't even mention it once in his articles. He mentions ice cream (in about 3 out of 62 articles) – but to cure headaches and migraines, and other symptoms of low blood glucose. He says fruit can accomplish the same thing, as he recommended here,
"For example, a woman who was 6 months pregnant called me around 10 o'clock one morning, to say that she had gone blind, and was alone in her country house. She said she had just eaten breakfast around 9 AM, and wasn't hungry, but I knew that the 6 month fetus has a great need for glucose, so I urged her to eat some fruit. She called me 15 minutes later to report that she had eaten a banana, and her vision had returned."
I realize that you think you can't tolerate any sugar (and are quick to blame it), but when you said you got joint pain – is that not a sign of high cortisol? Cortisol which also, as I've mentioned before, is greatly involved with blood sugar. Other factors eaten in that day or during that time frame can effect if cortisol will rise, stay up, or fall. If refined sugar in a great amount really did have that effect on you, then saying it's just because it's sugar doesn't seem to make much sense.
Blood glucose is not solely insulin based, and neither are many other problems largely associated with insulin, and insulin alone (including diabetes). And I mean, if I get ragged on for sounding like Bruce, I'm sorry, but he had something right- factors and more facts unknown can be incredibly important when coming to an honest theory. That's why it's called debate. And it's just what I have come to discover with my stumping problems, that there's a lot to consider when picking on things to blame.
I'm trying to get more information from you on this not-really-debate, but it seems as if you are completely stubborn to read anything in depth from Ray Peat – that's at least what it seems like. You see, it's kind of misguiding for you to say you care about learning more on health, when here I am, trying to expand upon this subject with a very different experience, yet, you will not reply nor discuss much of anything I'm trying to figure out. This isn't anything personal, at all, this is just my honest opinion. I'd really like it if I could get some discussion moving here…"
Matt, I cannot access the September eZine from the members page. The link is not there.
Patrick
Hey all, just stopping by to give a quick update on my Status, as a bit of feedback on Matt's advice.
As some of the closer readers may recall, I had a basal temp of 96.6 in the AM and 97.2 in the afternoons after 6-7 months on a "Weston Price" diet that was lowish in carbs. I thought I was hypothroid and even went as far as getting a prescription for Naturethroid.
However, since the beginning of August I've been following Matt's advice (which is really almost identical to Diana Schwarzbein in effect, if different in emphasis and delivery) and get this – in just one month my temp is now 97.9 in the AM and hit 98.9 earlier today! No, I am not running a fever or taking thyroid. That's just pure metabolic burn from lots of rest and good food.
So, what did I do differently from my WAPF days?
– More carbs, and a good mix of carbs, fats, proteins and veggies at every meal.
– More meals (4/day).
– Eliminate last of my caffeine intake.
– Get more sleep.
– Exercise less. Just walking now, yoga soon. None of the weightlifting or sprints.
In her book Dr. Scwarzbein mentioned that adrenal overstimulation/fatigue often presents as classic hypothyroidism. I think that's what my problem was. I haven't starting losing weight yet, but I stopped gaining a while ago and expect good things.
Havn't gotten much sleep this week though. Click here as a clue for why. :-)
oh, thanks Harper!
Patrick,
Does this link work for you?
http://180degreehealth.com/uploads/eZines/SeptemberZine.pdf
Matt,
You said let's move on, right? Why not..sugar!
Thank you ChlOe. The link works fine. :)
Iodine deficiency is very common in America. We are told that 1 mg of iodine per day is the maximum anyone should intake (ref). But the healthiest people on earth intake much more Iodine than this per day!
"The safety of therapeutic doses of iodine above the established safe upper limit of 1 mg is evident in the lack of toxicity in the Japanese population that consumes 25 times the median intake of iodine consumption in the United States."
http://www.thorne.com/altmedrev/.fulltext/13/2/116.pdf
This could explain most of the subclinical hypothyroidism affecting 40% of the population and contributing to the obesity pandemic.
Should we all supplement with something like Iodoral ?
Patrick
I know I'm a day late, but here is my brief LC summary…. I've been a pretty stable 130-135 at 5'6" all my adult life (44), but i've noticed after 4-5 years of VLC in an attempt to get down to a leaner 125, which is where I look my best, I finally have to admit that I am actually fatter! Still in my weight range but fatter! I've got all this spongy fat now around my belly/thighs and can't fit into my clothes that I could before VLC at the same weight. I'm much less active too, because I feel fatigue much of the time and had too many low blood sugar moments. I think I may have stressed my adrenals too because I began to have back pain in that area, especially after my meat/fat meals, and I noticed I was feeling the fight/flight adrenline feelings a lot. Finally said 'fuck this' and am going back to my more moderate carb WOE. I got some Isocort for my adrenals (I was tested with results of low morning cortisol)and already have Armour (was subclinical low thyroid), so am gong to try and restore my adrenal health and metabolism. Still, even if I do, I'm back to the same spot as contestant #4 which is, how will I ever lose the weight I want to lose. Thanks Matt
Hey Patrick,
I've read that the American population actually gets a good amount of iodine, and it's more rare of a cause of hypothyroidism here.
In a lita lee document, she was interviewing Peat about iodine and he had explained that people who are hypothyroid from an iodine deficiency are usually people from the mountains of Mexico, China, and the Andes.
He goes on to state that great amounts can actually damage the thyroid (to cause thyroiditis) – like the amounts Guy Abraham(? I don't know who that is) recommends.
You might find it an interesting read
Here is the link to the document:
http://www.litalee.com/documents/vD_i3.pdf
There's some good stuff on coconut water in there, too. haha
But yeah, other than that, I don't know much about iodine.
These low carb posts are interesting :-). Had something off topic though.
Valtor/Patrick:
How many pills of Nutri-meds dessicated thyroid are you taking? I was wondering how many you took to get the results you were having, to know if it might be doable for me. Sounds like it might be worth my while if it's not 5 pills a day. And are you taking it with adrenals?
I'm sure most people are getting too little iodine, but I'm not sure if too much can be bad or if the body needs to be in a better state to process it correctly. I've read mixed reports on that.
Matt, I really think chlOe and Harper's points should be looked into. You are very wise to be one of the few people I've seen realize how important quantity of food is over quality at times, but I think sometimes you miss the picture when someone is trying to heal and tons of food isn't all they need (when perhaps the quality and type matters more, or some sort of supplementation, usually glandular). I'm very sceptical of Ray Peat personally, but I don't think he has any hidden agenda and I haven't read enough from him. My guess is that he's half-right for the most part, but I have no clue. Kind of hope he's wrong though so restricting PUFAs doesn't matter as much :-). You did a really good job on your digestion e-book though. I personally think that tieing in some of that back in with your main content would be really good.
Thanks,
Teran
Teran,
I am currently taking 3 capsules of desiccated porcine thyroid a day (every 8 hours). That's 390 mg.
I am also taking 2 tablets of desiccated adrenals per day (400 mg).
Before all this, my temp in the morning was at 95.3. Really too low. Now I'm at 96.5, which is still too low.
ChlOe,
I intend to get some Iodoral next week. I hope this will help bring my temp to normal. With some luck, I'll even be able to diminish or stop taking desiccated thyroid.
Supposedly a high potency dose of iodine/iodide directly cures intestinal infections and by helping your metabolism, it helps get rid of other inflammatory agents.
Also, this high dose should help displace other toxic elements, like bromide and fluoride.
So I think that it's worth a shot.
Patrick
How OLD is Ray Peat (age in years)?
Anyone can refer to recent pictures of him?
Thank you.
Thanks, Patrick. 3 pills a day is a good bit, but I might try it. How are you measuring your temperature to get those readings? That sounds incredibly low. I got an in-ear reading of 97.6F this morning.
chlOe:
Missed your post on iodine before I posted my precious one. I'll have to read that some time.
Back to everyone for the most part:
I had a dream last night. I think I spend too much time here, because I had a dream where I was watching Ray Peat in a video. Except he was morbidly obese and had some strange deformities, which I believe he doesn't have. I'll blame chlOe and Harper for that. :-/
Thanks,
Teran
Hypothyroidism Reaches Epidemic Proportions, Causing Fatigue and Weight Gain.
http://www.naturalnews.com/026853_thyroid_hypothyroidism_disease.html
"Is the average temperature of the human body still 98.6 degrees Fahrenheit? This often quoted average was determined in the nineteenth century. A more recent study has reported an average temperature of 98.2, and experts believe the decrease in body heat is the result of an epidemic of mild or moderate hypothyroidism."
Patrick
Teran,
I measure orally with an electronic thermometer. To make sure it was accurate we tried it on my girlfriend and it was 98.1 in the morning for her. I agree that 95.3 is really low. When I saw that, I wondered how my MD could have missed something like that. It doesn't sound like my hypothyroidism is subclinical. At 95 I was close to hypothermia!
Still I managed to lose 90 pounds while trying all sorts of diets. But like we know from Matt, this just aggravated my metabolism. As soon as I stopped whatever diet I was on, I gained incredibly fast and not just water, but real fat weight.
So now I still have to lose another 60 pounds to get down to 200, but whatever I did didn't work, I was stuck on a pseudo plateau (yoyo) for 2 whole years.
Anyway, since I switched to the HighEverything WOE (after an initial 15 pounds weight gain) and started desiccated glandulars, I have now finally broke under 260.
I am very happy to report that I currently am at 256 pounds on my way down for good. Plus feeling a lot better and more powerful. I can just feel the strength when I flex my muscles. Very good feeling ! :-)
Patrick
In July I started supplementing with Iodoral in an attempt to 'help' my thyroid. I've had mixed results so I've added some nutri-med porcine thyroid and adrenals. Anyway, one note of caution about the Iodoral – be careful with increasing your dosage too fast, I've had BAD detox reactions, possibly bromide and fluoride, that results in large red welts that itch like hell and will bleed then scab over. When I back off or stop the Iodoral the patches will heal. When I discontinue the dose altogether the fatigue returns. I don't drink soda or eat processed foods so it must be my water and perhaps the occassional A.S. I use that is source of the halogens.
Really enjoy this blog and look forward to reading the comments. Y'all are entertaining and a smart bunch of fellow seekers of the truth. By the way, I'm in Knoxville too!
Going by the simple fact that the estimated consumption of iodine in America is 200-700 mcg per person; of which, the thyroid uses 60 mcg as a minimum to operate in order to produce thyroid hormone, it just doesn't seem like a logical reason to say that Americans (or other countries that get sufficient amounts) are simply deficient in this substance.
Now, looking at the diet and lifestyle would make a lot of sense why there are so many hypothyroid individuals: vegetable oil(unsaturated fats), refined syrups, and general food consumption and combinations; encouragement to "diet" and exercise strenuously; stress; drugs, x-rays, fluoride, etc; the diet of the mother; things that can harm the balance of hormones inside the body. It's hard(or maybe just takes forever) to figure out, or to get those damn things balanced..if I can attest for myself.
If it's true that over supplementing with iodine can lead to thyroiditis – then I think it would be safe to try other things first or to be sure of a deficiency of iodine. It seems as if it's more specific and rare than nation wide.
ChlOe,
The reason is that Iodine is easily displaced by other elements that binds to the same receptors, like Bromide, Fluoride and Chlorine.
So it may not be that we are deficient because we do not ingest enough Iodine, but because we ingest too much of the bad stuff.
Patrick
Thank you for the advice Susan. I think I will start with half a tablet a day.
Patrick
Yeah, but what's the mechanism behind that? How much fluoride (or other) does it take to deplete iodine? Is that really realistic?
I mean, put that with the fact that someone already may be getting plenty of iodine – way above the minimum requirement. Will all of it be depleted?
I just think it's wise to actually be sure you're deficient in it before attempting to use it for thyroid – when in fact, there are so many other factors in our food and lifestyle that can cause hypothyroidism.
I'd like to here more evidence on the depletion of iodine, if you have more facts.
ChlOe, I think these links I posted earlier answers some of your questions.
http://www.thorne.com/altmedrev/.fulltext/13/2/116.pdf
http://www.naturalnews.com/026853_thyroid_hypothyroidism_disease.html
It's a very good read.
Plus there seems to be a very simple test we can do.
http://www.noaw.com/Iodine%20Def/tincture_of_iodine.htm
Patrick
Patrick,
The iodine absorption test is a fake. Iodine applied to the skin is turned colorless by reductants such as Vitamin C, glutathione, and thiosulphate.
Iodine deficiency can be easily detected because it makes the thyroid gland enlarge (also called a goiter.) Iodine excess will do the same thing.
http://www.litalee.com/shopexd.asp?id=393
Very interesting info Harper. Thanks for the link. This will save me some time. :)
Patrick
no problem, enjoy
Some of the molecular biology is over my head but my understanding is the halogens particularly fluoride are more active than iodine and compete with iodine for uptake in the receptor sites not only thyroid but mammary glands, and genitals. If you are even mildly deficient your thyroid will bind with fluoride which results in hypothyroid symptoms. And since we are being bombarded with fluorides many suspect this as the cause of rampant hypothroidism increases.
Fluoride is in everything not just water and can be absorbed through the skin, lungs. It is a by product from industry and there has been heavy pressure to keep it as a "healthy" additive and thus save money on clean up. Iodine has been removed from many foods it used to be added to including bread and milk and replaced by fluoride, bromine (another halogen). Fluoride is added to salt because of the Universal Fluoridation of Salt (WHO, Pan Am Health) and now supasses even the consumption of fluoridated water. Weston Price is spinning over that one!
According the the American Thyroid ASso. the major symptoms of iodine deficiency are hypothyroid symptom and they estimate about 40% of the world population may be affected. Now I do agree, testing would be optimal before supplementing with iodine but most tests are expensive and getting the insurance co to pay difficult. There are some test kits you can order but these seem to be more on the order of testing for achieving sufficiency. I saw my GP earlier this year, test "high normal" TSH, have almost every hypothyroid symptom you can name but he wants to wait and test again. Believe me I'd rather treat myself with diet first, then supplementation as needed, hence the cautionary remark about over doing that came maybe from my zeal in finding something that seemed to lift the veil of fatigue I've been under as a result of my own low carb adventures.
From my research, excess iodine is simply eliminated through urine but will result in a brassy taste in the mouth, digestive upsets before it will cause hyper symptoms. But it will cause detox symptoms if dosage is increased too rapidly and these halogens are being released and excreted by the skin to keep from over loading the kidneys.
Oh yeah another interesting fact about fluoride is it was used to treat hyperthyroid back in the 40's. Sorry, didn't mean to go on, I'm just fascinated by this stuff.
"Iodine has been removed from many foods it used to be added to including bread and milk and replaced by fluoride, bromine (another halogen)."
Iodine is still IN the vast majority of foods that a standard diet has. Iodized salt (and a lot of it) is added to pizzas, chips, crackers, most microwave meals, soups, ramen noodles, etc. You get the picture. I don't think that widespread hypothyroidism due to iodine deficiency (in first-world countries) could be realistic because of the sheer volume of iodized salt most people consume.
Person number 2 in your article certainly seems like he is celiac to me. If you are celiac, you cannot even use the same chopping boards, wooden utensils or colanders as others eating gluten do. You can be avoiding gluten, but never healing due to cross contamination.
If I was him I would either get a blood test for celiac (only possible if he is willing to eat a lot of gluten for 4-5 months beforehand) or get a stool test from enterolab.
I think person 3 also may have a gluten issue.
I am celiac and it took years for me to get diagnosed. I ate low gluten anyway, but avoiding cross contamination has been critical to my recovery.
I also believe that the iodine that Japanese people eat (to perhaps explain why their high intake does not supposedly effect their thyroid) is different if it's from seaweed right? In that link you gave, Patrick, it was talking about the different forms of iodine.
As well, Japanese people aren't the healthiest people in the world, let's keep in mind. Their low incidence of breast cancer and endocrine problems can be from the fact that they don't have high estrogen and slow down their thyroid with lack of food or general anti-thyroid substances that America has and uses in abundance. Not just because they eat a lot of seaweed to get iodine – and as was said in the same article, that 90% of iodine anyway is eliminated through the urine.
Anyway, the point is, I think that it would be obvious, as Harper had given that link, if someone was iodine deficient, to some extent. But it is interesting that high estrogen can also cause something like a goiter —
"To elucidate whether soybeans would suppress the thyroid function in healthy adults, we selected 37 subjects who had never had goiters or serum antithyroid antibodies. They were given 30g of soybeans everyday and were divided into 3 groups subject to age and duration of soybean administration. … Hypometabolic symptoms (malaise, constipation, sleepiness) and goiters appeared in half the subjects in groups 2 and 3 after taking soybeans for 3 months, but they disappeared 1 month after the cessation of soybean ingestion. These findings suggested that excessive soybean ingestion for a certain duration might suppress thyroid function and cause goiters in healthy people, especially elderly subjects. "
Because soybeans can raise estrogen in the body – it would be logical to think of how our hormones can otherwise be raised such as from stress, diet, etc. and the problems that follow and the impact they have on the endocrine system.
It's also common for girls during puberty to get enlarged thyroid glands because of the proportion of estrogen to progesterone inside the body.
Also -as a side note- no one should confuse soybeans they use in Asia with soybeans in their raw state or and American invention: modern tofu. Those guys work hard to ferment the shit out of them. And I think most people are aware of how varied their diet is.
I'd ad that I also assume the iodine addition would right away have an effect on hypothyroid symptoms if it was a big problem for someone. Depending on the type of iodine?
Brock said:
As some of the closer readers may recall, I had a basal temp of 96.6 in the AM and 97.2 in the afternoons after 6-7 months on a "Weston Price" diet that was lowish in carbs. I thought I was hypothroid and even went as far as getting a prescription for Naturethroid.
However, since the beginning of August I've been following Matt's advice (which is really almost identical to Diana Schwarzbein in effect, if different in emphasis and delivery) and get this – in just one month my temp is now 97.9 in the AM and hit 98.9 earlier today! No, I am not running a fever or taking thyroid. That's just pure metabolic burn from lots of rest and good food.
So, what did I do differently from my WAPF days?
– More carbs, and a good mix of carbs, fats, proteins and veggies at every meal.
– More meals (4/day).
– Eliminate last of my caffeine intake.
– Get more sleep.
– Exercise less. Just walking now, yoga soon. None of the weightlifting or sprints.
But see, this is where folks sometimes go wrong with Weston Price. Weston Price and low carb are not synonymous. I mentioned this on another site the other day and Sally Fallon gave a nice hearty "Amen!"
If you read about the diet that Weston Price used to cure some children of dental caries there is nothing low carb about it. The one meal he gave them had at least 80 grams of carbs and included orange juice and fresh but untreated wheat bread!
Schwarzbein fits comfortably within the WAP paradigm. The WAPF even gives her book a thumbs up.
There is value to lower carbing for some folks I'm sure, but the low carb dragon really needs to be slain in traditional food circles as somehow representative of the optimal diet.
I posted about that and have my own major article coming out about the subject in a few weeks:
Slaying the Low Carb Dragon
Anyway, Brock, congratulations on your progress. I love hearing about success stories.
I too am curious about Ray Peat's age. In one of his books (Russian Research Perspectives…) he mentions being interested in a particular book in 1950. My guess is that he's somewhere between 75 and 85. Most likely he's 80.
ClhOe or Harper–do you guys know? Also, I have read your blog, with special interest to the Ray Peat sections. I couldn't comment no it because I don't have the right loggin information–but I wanted to talk to you about Ray Peat. I haven't officially consulted with him myself, but I've exchanged a few emails with him. Now that I've read all his articles and 2 of his books, I'm hungry for more on Ray Peat. To me his ideas seem incredibly significant–almost magnicicently so–and I can't figure out why there isn't more information about him.
Very interesting blog you have ClhOe and Harper. :)
I don't know what I will do to get tested for rT3. I live in Qu?bec Canada and our socialized health care system is so inefficient that 25% of the population does not have access to an MD (even if you want to directly pay for one on top of already paying for it with your income taxes). I happen to have one, but it's a 3 hours drive from where I live and since my TSH is mostly ok, he won't here anything about my being hypo. In the USA, I would just find an MD willing to work with me, but here the idea of choosing an MD (and one knowledgeable about thyroid) is laughable at best. :(
So I really don't know what I could do…
Patrick
:-(
I hope for your sake that the USA will not copy our Canadian model for your new shiny socialized health care system…
Anyway, I have dangerous thoughts right now. Like ordering Cytomel (T3) online without a prescription and stuff like that. My temp is still stuck at 96.5 and I still feel cold even though I feel better than before taking glandulars.
Patrick
Yea I'm from Europe and socialized ANYTHING is the worst!
Everybody follows government protocol here, nobody thinks outside the box. Patients wait in line for treatments. NOBODY can opt out from the socialized health care, it's mandatory, so everyone HAS to pay, even though they are not using a doctor AT ALL. So my money goes to old Miss Linda who is 75, has smoked her entire life, and has now gotten lung cancer. HOW is that my responsibility to take care of her? well I do… through my enormous taxes (50% of income goes to the government in many European countries).
Anyway… I'm rambling
Just want to say the US health care system is much better than others, I have experienced it myself. Sure there are doctors who prescribe too many drugs, but at least here you have the freedom to choose a doctor that's open minded.
@ MATT:
Matt, so I'm curious to hear, have you overcome your sugar intolerance? do you still get mood swings and cravings after sugars?
You said somewhere recently that you can eat whole watermelons and peaches with no problems what so ever. Does this mean you eat natural sugars/fruits on a regular basis (like daily). And how much sugar is OK? (are 4 pieces of fruit fine?) Should sugars be eaten in combination with something (like starch, fat or protein) or alone – what produces the most stable mood and no cravings?
Sorry to hear you have trouble getting a doctor, Patrick. There aren't endocrinologists there? There must be naturopaths or something?
I wouldn't be jealous of America. There's a lot of things we've got that suck and don't work and is corrupt (though, I realize, that isn't JUST us). France (it's not the same everywhere in Europe, obviously) seems like it's at the top with providing health care, and they've got a duel system (private or public)..I think that's what Obama should be looking at. But yeah, I don't have health insurance or a doctor, so, I'm pretty much going by symptoms at this point rather than getting tests (though, Harper's tests pretty much helped me out haha).
I didn't have any trouble ordering cytomel from that mexican drug store site; and someone else I know has cynoplus (mexican version of a concentrated thyroid extract – like Armour). I'm sure it wouldn't be very risky at all.
Anonymous; just as an interesting fact, an organization that goes around the world (to third world countries mostly) to give out free health care was in L.A. a bit ago, giving out free health care, including for eyes (glasses, like for children), teeth (dentists), etc. This was for people with and without insurance. If someone has insurance, it doesn't always cover enough. Someone without it, obviously, costs an assload – well, maybe as much as you're paying monthly for regular insurance. And don't even get me started on their crackhead antics of searching for (a) pre-existing condition(s).
Say you get in an accident..that should be the right of the country to take care of you, not to leave you out in the street to die or suffer because you can't afford it. Doesn't matter who you are, what your age is- the insurance companies (and money) have a huge control over what people can and can't do in this country.
Ted Kennedy himself realized something, that he doesn't think people would get the best care if they didn't have the money, after he had been injured in that plane crash. That's one of the reasons he spoke in the light of health care for everyone. If that's being a "socialized" country, I guess our fireman, libraries, and policeman are socialized, too. Damn.
Truly, I'd rather be paying taxes to help someone with their health problems than paying taxes to a retarded war (among other things tax money is being used for) that has been going on for too long.
Anyway! Hope you can get some help, Patrick, if you need it. If not, hope you can attempt to figure it out with symptoms and trying this or that.
Michael, you are correct that WAPF is not low carb. I indeed noticed that WP himself used wheat gruel cereals to cure the poor children in Ohio of their dental problems. It's just that when I read N&PD for the first time I was very much in a "Paleo" head space and simply assumed that "If Weston Price's diet is good, then Weston Price + Paleo must be even better!" :-) Obviously I was not correct in that assumption. My diet now is probably a lot closer to what Weston Price would have recommended himself.
And hey, two more pieces of good news.
One, I have begun to lose weight. I was down to 241 the other day, down from my high of 246 lbs. in August. Pants feel a bit looser. I still have a few pounds to go to reach where I was before I went on the HED/Scwarzbein diet (238), but I have no doubt I'll get there soon.
And Two, even better, my son was born last Tuesday (9/8)! Besides the normal joys of parenthood this is a fascinating experiment, as I put Wendy on a Weston Price diet just a month before we got pregnant and I made sure she took her A, D and K2 supplements. Her diet was even "more WAPF" than mine for months too, since she never agreed to give up her rice and sweet potatoes. :) Anyway, when John (my son) was born he was 23 inches long (97th percentile in height) but was only 13th percentile in head circumference because it squished almost into a banana shape – causing the pushing part of labor to last less than two hours. It's rounding out nicely now though.
Also, for those who know a little about newborns, John scored a 10 on the APGAR test at both 1 minute and 5 minutes old. 10 is the "perfect score" and getting a 10 on both is extremely uncommon.
And this is anecdotal, but for a newborn he is RIPPED. A friend of mine even commented "Has he been working out? I don't think anyone is just BORN with triceps like that.." :-) He's only a week old, but I think he could take anyone less than three months old in a fight. :-)
Anyway, that's just my way of saying that I think the diet and vitamins "worked." Wendy and I just aren't genetically gifted enough to produce these results spontaneously. :)
Well, personally I don't mind paying for everyone, but I would like access to health care for myself too while I pay for it.
Anyway, I managed to find a private clinic that will take non-members. Private clinics are rare here, because they can't accept "the card" and paying patients together. Doctors who chose this way cannot be mixed public/private. I real shame.
But at least I am able to afford this, so I should be ok I guess.
Patrick
Hi,
Could the website with the mexican made drugs be referenced? Thanks
Good lord, I will try to resist commenting on health care, other than the simple comment that America ranks last in the industrial world on the quality of health care, while actually being the most expensive. So, the worse outcomes with the most expense. It cant get worse as far as I can see. I know a number of people without insurance. No insurance and unexpected illness are major causes of forclosure and bankrupcy here in the US. People die here because of no insurance. Or they go broke and lose their homes. And as far as finding someone to treat thyroid "properly", in the state I live, I've failed to do so yet….and when I do, insurance will probably not cover it, so thats not so great either.
Aaruun, I think you've failed not commenting on health care. ;-)
But, I feel your pain…
Patrick
"Could the website with the mexican made drugs be referenced? Thanks"
No, not publicly. That's how they get shut down and people lose their only supply of medication.
Hi Valtor,
LOL. Yes, I almost wrote at the end of my post "looks like I failed about not commenting about health care".
Hi Harper,
Oh, really? So, I guess that means its illegal? Darn, I thought we were talking about something legal. Like how one can't buy "Absinthe" in the US but it is perfectly legal to by it from another country and have it shipped here.
The only oversea drug places I've found on the "net" say they cant ship it here without a prescription….guess I'm going to the wrong places…..
Thanks for the other commments in the last thread, I'm looking into some of that.
I posted the site somewhere here before..maybe in the 3rd carb wars..or second one? Or something else entirely. Damn I do not remember. I wasn't aware anyone would be able to find a site to shut it down, haha. I can be discreet here:
MY
mexiiicaaannn
druuug
store!
dot
com.
Put it all together, in a, you know, more fashionably, less lettery way.
It's not illegal. It's an uncontrolled drug. But the sites still do get shut down. Please don't post it publicly.
Here is a quote that I like a lot.
———
Pennington proposed that a metabolic defect is what causes obesity in humans. The adipose tissue amasses fat calories in a normal manner after meals, but it doesn’t release those calories fast enough, for whatever reason, to satisfy the needs of the cells between meals.
By hypothesizing the existence of such a defect, Pennington was able to explain the entire spectrum of observations about obesity in humans and animals simply by applying the same law of energy conservation that other obesity researchers had misinterpreted. The law applies to the fat tissue, Pennington noted, just as it does to the entire human body. If energy goes into the fat tissue faster than it comes out, the energy stored in the fat tissue has to increase. Any metabolic phenomenon that slows down the release of fat from the fat tissue’that retards the ?energy out? variable of the equation?will have this effect, as long as the rate at which fat enters the adipose tissue (the energy in) remains unchanged, or at least does not decrease by an equal or greater amount. Fat calories accumulating in the adipose tissue wouldn’t be available to the cells for fuel. We would have to eat more to compensate, or expend less energy, or both. We?d be hungrier or more lethargic than individuals without such a defect.
Pennington suggested that as the adipose tissue accumulates fat its expansion will increase the rate at which fat calories are released back into the bloodstream (just as inflating a balloon will increase the air pressure inside the balloon and the rate at which air is expelled out of the balloon if the air is allowed to escape), and this could eventually compensate for the initial defect itself. We will continue to accumulate fat?and so continue to be in positive energy balance?until we reach a new equilibrium and the flow of fat calories out of the adipose tissue once again matches the flow of calories in. At this point, Pennington said, ‘the size of the adipose deposits, though larger than formerly, remains constant: the weight curve strikes a plateau, and the food intake is, again, balanced to the caloric output.
By Pennington’s logic obesity is simply the body’s way of compensating for a defect in the storage and metabolism of fat. The compensation, he said, occurs homeostatically, without any conscious intervention. It works by a negative feedback loop. By expanding with fat, the adipose tissue ?provides for a more effective release of fat for the energy needs of the body. Meanwhile, the conditions at the cellular level remain constant; the cells and tissues continue to function normally, and they do so even if we have to become obese to make this happen.
This notion of obesity as a compensatory expansion of the fat tissue came as a revelation to Pennington: ?It dawned on me with such clarity that I felt stupid for not having seen it before. By working through the further consequences of this compensatory process, Pennington said, all the seemingly contradictory findings in the field suddenly fit together ?like clockwork.
This defect in fat metabolism would explain the sedentary behavior typically associated with obesity, and why all of us, fat and lean, will become easily fatigued when we restrict calories for any length of time. Rather than drawing on the fat stores for more energy, the body would compensate by expending less energy. Any attempt to create a negative energy balance, even by exercise, would be expected to have the same effect.
———
Quoted from Good Calories, Bad Calories by Gary Taubes.
Patrick
Ahhh, the sugar debate rages on. Good.
I eat plenty of natural sugars these days. My health has been quite good with them in fact. My tolerance for sugars has greatly improved – both natural and refined.
Still, I had to laugh when I did some experiementing with refined sugar and had extreme joint pain that reminded me of my early 20's. I spent a decade in pain – lower back, elbow joints, shoulders, etc. It wasn't until I removed refined sugar from my diet that all that subsided – and did so in short order. This was while still eating large quantities of natural sugars.
I do think that excluding all sugars for a while – like a couple of months, both natural and refined, probably does have a unique healing effect – the one the candida diets that exclude all forms of simple sugars report and then some. Maybe Richard Johnson is right about needing to deactivate fructokinase enzymes that become radically elevated by abstaining for a while. (he gives it 2 weeks). There's nothing wrong with natural sugars of course, but I still stand by the healing power of their temporary removal as a healing diet (mainly because simple sugars are far more destabilizing to blood sugar levels in those with low adrenals/low thyroid/hyperinsulinemia than starches are. That is incontrovertible knowledge).
I am not anti-Peat, but his philospohy on sugars, vegetables, lime-treated corn, and other tangents has never done much more for me other than give me a good laugh. Plus, in typical scientific fashion, he departs a little too drastically from traditional knowledge, plain observation, and epidemiological baselines. It's also unfortunate that he dwells mostly on polyunsaturated fats as the root of all evil when the diseases of mankind arose before polyunsaturated fats were in common use. Sugar was the wingman of diabetes, heart disease, cancer, and other manifestations of the "saccharine disease," not any type of fat. Even heart disease studies forcing subjects to choke down massive gobs of soy oil couldn't increase heart attack frequency or mortality.
Sure, saturated fats are preferable, but that doesn't mean that ice cream is fine because it's high in saturated fat. The sugar in ice cream of any kind is the real culprit of most cases of poor health, and since it's capable of disturbing fat metabolism, I consider typical ice cream to be amongst the least healthy of all foods. It's like drinking Pepsi with a bowl of french fries.
Brock,
Great to hear that your offspring is like Chuck Norris Jr. Does he have a goatee yet, or is his chin still just a little tiny fist waiting to be hidden under one?
Great to hear you are doing better too, with higher temps to verify your progress. Now maybe you can help me explain to others why, in a world filled with adrenal burnouts, the semi-malnourished, and those with symptoms of low thyroid might actually need to eat more and exercise less to heal.
Ay Ay just listened to your podcast,
I'm like, wtf at the fructose enzymage. If that stuff is true – it seems as if Johnson's (ahaha) research was soley focused on refined fructose (I think, since he was basically talking about high fructose corn syrup), which I believe is different from the fructose ('levulose') in fruit. So wouldn't taking out natural sugars just be kind of a lost cause? Though, I realize you've taken them out and have your own experience to go by. But I often wonder about other factors, and what would be if you had kept natural sugars in the whole time.
I don't see the comparison between ice cream and pepsi/french fries (unless the fries were made with some sort of saturated fat…) Peat may bring up PUFAs a lot but it can't be ignored that they are very unstable and almost certainly dangerous. Frying in them just compounds the problem. I never took it that he was blaming every disease on them, but definitely certain cancers. Barnes made the same point about them and cancer as well, yet he seems to connect almost everything else (including heart disease and diabetes complications) to hypothyroidism.
If you go for that theory, then it follows that an inability to handle sugars properly (natural or otherwise) is just another symptom of a messed up thyroid.
Personally my experience with impaired metabolism is that a few months ago it had gotten to the point where I was sensitive to a lot of the same foods as Emma at Plant Poisons and Rotten Stuff (certainly tomatoes, gluten, peppers, spices, greens, lots of fruits, anything with sulfites including even the small amounts in corn syrup and industrial citric acid, etc.) though my symptoms were never as bad… mostly eczema, rashes and hayfever type of stuff.
It's been about a month and a half that I've been taking natural thyroid and now I am up to 4 grains a day. My temp has gone from averaging in the high-95 to mid-96 range (never going higher than that at any time of day) to now tending to somewhere around 97.6. I just started taking 5mg of prednisone in the morning (a la Barnes) a couple days ago and today my temp was up to 98.3.
All of the sudden I am eating tomatoes and fruits again and drinking wine with no symptoms. Gluten I'm not so sure I'll ever handle well, but in a few months I might try some bavarian style pumpernickel that's been sourdough fermented and see.
Personally I don't worry much about sugars and I eat a lot of Haagen Dazs and sometimes drink tonic water that has 36g of sugar a can (which still blows me away because it doesn't even taste that sweet!) That's just me though… if I could eat gluten I'd probably eat a lot more bread and bagels and a lot less sugar. But with rice and potatoes as staples I get sick of cooking them and to trying to eat a lot of carbs that way.
For anyone interested in some background on my treatment, I am uninsured in the US, male, in my early 20s and didn't even attempt to find a doctor who would try to treat me as being hypothyroid. Any doctor I have ever visited about my skin would prescribe me super-potent topical steroids, which are effective, but certainly not a real solution.
I originally had ordered some Nature-Throid from an online pharmacy based in Vanuatu that doesn't require any type of prescription. To find it you can google the country and the word "pharmacy". In my experience they ship quick, have low prices and US customs hasn't given me trouble with any of my orders. Problem is that when I tried to order more they were out of stock, just like everyone else. Still this is where I bought the prednisone from the other week.
For thyroid pills I am now buying a product called "Thiroyd" which is a Thai generic version of Armour. If you google that you can find tons of online places that will sell it without a prescription. It is listed as having the same mcg amounts of T3 and T4 as Armour or Nature-Throid. I actually prefer it to NT because it isn't coated and can be taken sublingually. Way cheaper as well. Someone on another site mentioned that it had the exact same smell as the old Armour that people loved, but I can't verify that. There is another Thai generic called "Thyroid-S" made by Sriprasit which I've read good things about, but it has a brown coating and probably won't dissolve as well in the mouth.
Matt- I wanted to ask you about your culinary background that you've mentioned in some of your posts? How far did you take it?
During my senior year in high-school I became obsessed with haute cuisine and planned on going into that as a career. After I graduated and started working in a 4-star restaurant in a lowly runner position it didn't take long for me to realize that 16 hour days of standing hunched over in a fluorescently lit kitchen was not for me. Still carried on the interest though, really into modern chefs like Ferran Adria, Grant Achatz, Heston Blumenthal, etc. These days my love of butter and dislike of canola oil and crazy modified starches has got me more into the traditional French guys like Alain Passard, Michel Bras and Bernard Pacaud. I think the WAPF would be delighted with pretty much any dish those guys serve.
Actually the truth is I'm more interested in the science behind the food now than the food itself, but obviously once you've eaten really great food I don't think you can ever lose the desire to eat more really great food…
Anyway, are you familiar with "sous vide" cooking? I wonder if cooking protein, fat or starch in a vacuum sealed bag has any nutritional benefits. Obviously it's a good way to contain and save the cooking liquids as compared to a pot of boiling water, but I wonder how it affects glycation? Also it Peat is correct about boiling starches to prevent persorption, then this might be a good way to "boil" potatoes so that they won't absorb so much water before frying them!
Thoughts anyone?
"Even heart disease studies forcing subjects to choke down massive gobs of soy oil couldn't increase heart attack frequency or mortality."
Matt, could you please provide a link to the above mentioned study?
Thanks
Thanks for the info Owen. I was able to see a private doctor yesterday. I'm waiting for the blood work results. But I do not think anything will come out of this.
I think I will have to self treat like you do. My problem is that most online pharmacy will not ship to Canada. I guess that our customs agency is just too efficient. :/
Patrick
Owen,
Thats amazing you are getting so much better! Can you tell me where you got the prednisone as I have been wanting to take small doses of that because I believe its more my adrenals holding me back.
Matt/Ami on gobs of soy oil.
Does it not require ummm….many years of regularly eating a SAD amount of oil to get these diseases? How long did these people chose down oil? I cant imagine they would be able to do it for 5,10,20+ years would they? Also, when was this study performed? Where these people from prior generations that have better body foundations than we do today?
-Drew
On soy oil; I had also posted a study earlier which they(don't remember who, I'd have to look it up) did with some people who ..well..I think it was half developed hypothyroidism and/or goiters when fed soybeans everyday – specifically the more elderly people were more easily susceptible.
Didn't Broda Barnes point out that heart disease and things related to the heart were brought on by the thyroid – to which he cured those heart problems with Armour? So I agree that it would have to be a long study in order to tell who got heart disease, and as importantly, their age.
But if you say refined sugar is worse than soy oil, I wouldn't really agree at all.
Owne–I was very interested to read your story because it sounds a lot like my own–same age, gender, severity and triggers of symptoms, temperature. It's all the same. Are you/were you also underweight?
I am taking the nutri-med glandulars. About 6 grains a day, although I am guessing that the potency is low, that 6 grains is equal to about 3 grains armour. I'd be interested in obtaining some of the armour knockoffs. –Andrew
has anyone read The Yeast Connection Cookbook by William G. Crook and Marjorie Hurt Jones? It seems to echo all of the dietary advice up until now )ie lowering protein and fat and upping carbs, but no sugar or tons of dairy or eggs or gluten/grains). I'm just reading it now and would really enjoy a discussion.
Drew,
I got the prednisone from Inhouse Pharmacy (you can just google that and it should be the top result.) They have a pretty big web presence… before I ordered from them the first time I checked around and found a lot of people recommending them on other forums, so I don't think it's a problem to post the name here. They list it under the "General" section along with a generic version of Cortef hydrocortisone which is a lot more expensive if you adjust for equal doses (based on 5mg pred = 20mg hc) although I know a lot of people prefer the hydrocortisone because it is the identical physiological hormone and doesn't require conversion in the liver.
Once I got up to 4 grains a day of thyroid it really seemed to help with my temp and my tolerance of adding foods back in with no new reactions, but I still had a lot of residual inflammation from before (unless you are using topical steroids, eczema takes forever to calm down…) Anyway the prednisone is finally helping to clear that up, so my hope is that I can wean of it within a couple months and hopefully by then my metabolism is fixed enough to not trigger any new inflammation from eating various foods. Emma had a quote recently on PP&RS from the Scottish thyroid doctor she is seeing, Dr. Gordon Skinner- ?My patients are always convinced that their food intolerances won’t get better, but they always do? -so it could be as simple as this.
Chloe,
Yes I had read that Barnes found from studying the autopsies in Graz, Austria that anyone who was dying of an infection like tuberculosis would have severe atherosclerosis that would have killed them anyway. After antibiotics were invented these people would go on to die of heart disease at a slightly older age. He blamed it all on hypothyroidism and claimed to have a ridiculously low rate of heart disease with his own patients after screening them all and treating those who needed it with thyroid.
This is a good piece on him that gives some info on those findings, his thoughts on PUFAs and mentions his use of prednisone for anyone interested: http://www.midwestsinus.com/complementary_medicine/thyroid_hormone/history
These ones below are really great, not to be missed! They are transcriptions of audio interviews he did (you can tell from reading these he was an exceptional man… great sense of humor and very individualistic and irreverent at times.
http://www.thyroidresearch.com/viewArticle.php?articleno=40
http://www.thyroidresearch.com/viewArticle.php?articleno=42
http://www.thyroidresearch.com/viewArticle.php?articleno=2560
http://www.thyroidresearch.com/viewArticle.php?articleno=46
http://www.thyroidresearch.com/viewArticle.php?articleno=28
It's very sad that there aren't doctors around like him anymore. Probably haven't been for a long time, if they were ever common at all. I mean just consider this quote of his from one of those interviews… it's hilarious if you consider how shocking this would sound to most practicing doctors these days:
"But listen to those symptoms. If it fits, and you have to ease your conscience a little, get a basal temperature test. You may need one blood test, to keep the AMA off your back. Because they have a habit of picking on somebody that isn't doing at least some blood tests. It doesn't matter which one you pick out. Get the cheapest one, because you won't follow it anyway. Go ahead and treat your patient with some thyroid, and I can assure you, your office will build up rather rapidly."
Andrew,
That's very interesting. Yeah, we seem to be in the identical situation. I definitely consider myself underweight, although if you go by the BMI chart I am probably at the low end of normal. I'm 5'7" and I'd say my weight is around 120 and has been since I was 16. It makes me wonder how long I've been hypothyroid! It's fluctuated maybe +/- 5 pounds at any given point, though I doubt it's ever gone over 130. I'd love to get up to 135 now that I can start eating a wider variety of foods. I honestly think sometimes that I should drink as much soda as I can until I gain the weight and then taper off, because there's no way I'll ever do it eating saturated fat and starch… I just don't have the appetite to eat that much.
I'm not sure if this applies to either of us, but I remember this interview ( http://www.thyroid-info.com/articles/ray-peat.htm )between Ray Peat and Mary Shoman where Peat mentions this occasionally an underweight male will put on weight after taking thyroid. To me it seems counter-intuitive so I'm curious what the mechanism is?
Oh I forgot to mention that the "Thiroyd" product I am taking from Thailand is made by a company called "Greater Pharma" just in case anyone wants to verify that the site they are on is selling the same thing.
belinda LOL lowering fat and protein? who did write this?
Owen, I'm 5'10" at 134lbs. My weight also fluctuated. I'd like to ask Ray Peat more about it, but I think that we are probably not fully digesting/absorbing the food we eat. I eat a boatload of food daily. At one point I drank a gallon of milk a day with no weight gain.
Do you think the Armour knockoff would be better to take than the thyroid glandular?–Andrew
Well Matt Stone, I think you might receive many more low-carb stories in the near future, but in case you don't here is my Carb War. I am 5'5, female, 125 lbs with a healthy BMI however I'd like to lose a good 5 lbs and keep it off.
Is it just me, or is a woman who is 5'5 125 lbs and still wanting to lose weight seem to have a goal that is going to cause problems? I mean that seems like a perfectly good size or am I missing something as a man who doesn't understand the nuances of a woman's body image?
Michael
Nutrition and Physical Regeneration
Owen you rule. Those are some amazing links. Broda is hillarious!
"Because I can take that same patient, put him on the regular, desiccated, whole thyroid. And in six weeks his skin is nice and soft. You know that school girl complexion you'd love to touch and don't dare"
Oh do we love to touch it…
Brock said:
Michael, you are correct that WAPF is not low carb. I indeed noticed that WP himself used wheat gruel cereals to cure the poor children in Ohio of their dental problems. It's just that when I read N&PD for the first time I was very much in a "Paleo" head space and simply assumed that "If Weston Price's diet is good, then Weston Price + Paleo must be even better!" :-) Obviously I was not correct in that assumption. My diet now is probably a lot closer to what Weston Price would have recommended himself.
Hi Brock. Thanks for your reply. Yes Weston Price, while not recommending one particular group over the other, and believing based on his observations that slavishly following a particular group's diet wasn't necessary, nevertheless wrote that the healthiest group he observed consumed seafood and grains as their staple foods.
For sure, paleo can fit within the Price paradigm, it is just that paleo doesn't equal Weston Price. Although if you read some very good paleo sites around the web you would get the idea that Weston Price and paleo are synonymous. They are not.
My main problem with paleo/low carbers is when they suggest that their diet is the diet, and then use Dr. Price to back it up. Dr. Price's work establishes no such thing.
In fact, given that there was only one group that could be described as paleo in terms of diet (though not the only group that ate nearly 100% animal products), I would suggest his work strongly suggests otherwise – that there is no one optimal diet.
Her diet was even "more WAPF" than mine for months too, since she never agreed to give up her rice and sweet potatoes. :)
Sounds like you married a smart woman. :-)
Anyway, when John (my son) was born he was 23 inches long (97th percentile in height) but was only 13th percentile in head circumference because it squished almost into a banana shape – causing the pushing part of labor to last less than two hours. It's rounding out nicely now though.
With good nutrition that is the way it is supposed to happen!
Congratulations on the newborn! I'd like to work on bringing one of them into the world one day. I guess it might help if I find a significant other. :-)
Michael
Nutrition and Physical Regeneration
Matt said:
I am not anti-Peat, but his philospohy on sugars, vegetables, lime-treated corn, and other tangents has never done much more for me other than give me a good laugh. Plus, in typical scientific fashion, he departs a little too drastically from traditional knowledge, plain observation, and epidemiological baselines.
Doesn't lime treated corn qualify as "traditional knowledge"?
It's also unfortunate that he dwells mostly on polyunsaturated fats as the root of all evil when the diseases of mankind arose before polyunsaturated fats were in common use.
I guess it depends on how far back you want to go. The ancient Egyptians suffered all the "modern" diseases and they were big on refined oils.
Even heart disease studies forcing subjects to choke down massive gobs of soy oil couldn't increase heart attack frequency or mortality.
I think Chris Masterjohn pretty well establishes in his special report on PUFA's that at the very least, ingested in excess of what traditional groups consumed, they exacerbate many disease conditions. So whether or not they arrived late to the party, they can do there own particular sort of damage.
Michael
Nutrition and Physical Regeneration
So about being underweight and possibly hypothyroid – you can look at other symptoms to try and tell if you don't get blood tests or anything. Reflexes are normally slow in hypothyroid individuals (pupils, achilles, etc); if your hands and feet are cold, if you have poor circulation, or always seem cold; if your basal temperature is low or fluctuates. It's tricky with temperature because stress hormones can raise it. Though, I think in that case, in the morning, if you were hypothyroid and had too much cortisol flyin around (to which the temperature could read high when you wake up), the temperature would drop after you eat, when normally it should go higher.
There's a huge list of other symptoms here
http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/long-and-pathetic/
But I would go by that to see if a thyroid extract is necessary. Though, diet is more important.
Also, absorption of food has a lot to do with thyroid as well. Best to fix the root cause.
Belinda, I think it's the same with candida overgrowth. It is allowed to overpopulate when the body's immune system is not functioning as it should.
Harper actually sent me this quote that she found from a Lita Lee document or article or something,
"Most of what people believe about candida is wrong, but candida can become a problem for sick people; the IgA, which is the main type of antibody on surfaces and secretions, should protect against it, so hypothyroid people have more susceptible membranes, and the yeasts thrive on sugar that can appear in the secretions in diabetes/stress, but they adhere to any cell with estradiol in it, thinking they have found a fertile yeast. Eating sugar and fruit is helpful, rather than harmful as the cultists say, because well nourished yeasts aren't harmful in the intestine, and starved yeasts need sugar and so they project invasive filaments into the intestinal wall, and can get into the blood stream, at which point–if they aren't quickly destroyed by white blood cells–they can grow and quickly kill the person. In a typical year, a few people in the world get invasive candida and quickly die, but millions of Americans will insist that they "have candida in the bloodstream." Eating sugar (fruits, fruit juices) lowers cortisol, keeping the white cells working, helps to increase thyroid, and keeps the yeast from becoming invasive. PUFA (polyunsaturated fatty acids or omega-3 and -6 fatty acids) are yeast stimulants, unlike saturated fats. The white film on grapes is a layer of yeast cells, that live there because of the PUFA in the waxy surface of the grape."
Ray Peat wrote that.
So, thought you may find that interesting. Eating sugar has not seemed to make any of the problems I thought were associated with candida for myself worse. My digestion has quite improved, actually, whether it's from the cytomel or raw carrots, or general diet, I don't know. But I just know sugar is not making things worse at all, if I do even have or did have a candida problem. I did do quite some research on it, though. It's rather difficult to tell still.
Owen,
Thanks for the links. Actually, if they judge people by atherosclerosis (that's arterial plaque, right? or is this different..) from the first link you gave – then I'm not sure how good of a depictor that is for heart disease, if you've ever seen this quote,
"Enig points out that other researchers conducted population studies that showed that the animal model used by Kritchevsky, especially one that used vegetarian animals, was not a valid approach to the problem of heart disease in human omnivores. She cites studies conducted in the 1950s showing that the presence of arterial plaque, which is considered a symptom of heart disease, is a natural process that has nothing to do with diet. American soldiers killed during the Korean War had similar amounts and severity of plaques (75 percent) as Japanese natives whose diet was lower in animal products (65 percent), and the largely vegetarian Bantu in South Africa had just as much occlusions or plaque build-up in their arteries as other races in South Africa who ate more meat. "
Sorry if that was kind of random, haha. Just thought I'd share that.
I loved his point of view on polyunsaturated fats, though! A lot of what he says sounds familiar to what I've read over in Ray Peat's articles, actually – just summed up a lot more, and basically just blaming a lot of things on hypothyroidism. Which, it's a little more complex than that with all the hormones involved, but basically, yeah.
Differences, though, would be that Peat is more into diet than Barnes is.
I have Barne's book Hypothyroidism: The Unsuspecting Illness, that I have yet to read.
But yeah, damn, those are a lot of links, so I'll have to come back and take a look at those. I was able to read through the first one, hence, the reply.
Michael,
I did not know that about Egyptians! Damn, what is it with Egyptians this week. I heard of them three times already. Average age, I learned form Harper sending me a Mark Starr quote, is 35. Holy fuck! That's not very long at all. As well, Mark Starr talked about how they were fully hypothyroid. So refined oils..HMMMM! Especially if they were polyunsaturated or unsaturated. That's a big one.
In reply to woman and weight – it's probably not so much just numbers, but appearance. No one wants to be skinny fat, and that can be possible at 125, 5'5". I don't know, some people are more obsessive than others, and totally focus on the scale alone; maybe even sizes of pants. I for one would rather go by inches and appearance, but that's just me.
And hey, guys can obsess just as much. Haven't you ever heard of Manorexia? Jeeez.
(:
"Is it just me, or is a woman who is 5'5 125 lbs and still wanting to lose weight seem to have a goal that is going to cause problems? I mean that seems like a perfectly good size or am I missing something as a man who doesn't understand the nuances of a woman's body image?"
No, It's not just you. 125 was my goal weight in Weight Watchers and I'm an inch shorter. I picked that as my goal because it was a point in the past when I felt the best about my body, felt good etc of course quite a bit of feeling good at 125 had to do with being 21 freaking years old though. The weird part about eating the way I have been since finding this website is that I don't obsess about my body as much. I don't feel so fat. I know I'm just as fat as I was 12 weeks ago, but it doesn't make me want to start sobbing when I look in the mirror. Part of that is eliminating sugar has helped my moods. Part of it, is not feeling crappy from my allergies makes me have a bit of perspective. I still want to loose weight , but now I have to force myself to step on scale every week or so. I used to practically live on that thing. I've turned my obsessive tendencies toward my thermometer instead.
Now I focus on my overall feeling of wellness: how are my allergies? My moods? My skin? My digestion? My teeth? All these things are generally improved. Also I think I've gained a bit of tolerance. I spent the last five days at my mom's house being fed processed crap and sugar and though my digestion took a bit of a dip, it is back on track quickly since I'm home and eating my beloved bacon and eggs for breaky again.
Oh hey, Matt I had a bowl of grape nuts at my mom's house (with 2% milk. Ugg) as a "treat." I can't believe I used to dowse that stuff in sugar. Maybe it's just my sugar receptors coming back but everything I used to eat tastes way sweeter to me now.
If one wants to consume sugar. They could just use dextrose. This way you skip the fructose. :)
Anyone knows what Ray Peat would say to that? I mean if you can have your sugar effects without the fructose, all the better. No?
Patrick
Well, fructose (refined) and fructose (natural) are completely different. It's said over on Ray Peat's website that sucrose is the best for diabetics, because of the fact that it's composed of both fructose and glucose equally.
It's like the fact that my diabetic friend's blood sugar would always fuck up when she ate sugary junk food (that contains more than just sugar…!) – but never with fruit. She had a blood glucose monitor and I remember all the time watching her take it.
"Fructose inhibits the stimulation of insulin by glucose, so this means that eating ordinary sugar, sucrose (a disaccharide, consisting of glucose and fructose), in place of starch, will reduce the tendency to store fat. "
As well, he has many contrary studies of the AHA, other "health" organizations, and most dieticians of America – that starch is better for blood sugar and insulin. For example, on thermogenesis (a good indicator of metabolism – to produce heat),
Minerva Endocrinol 1990 Oct-Dec;15(4):273-7. [Postprandial thermogenesis and obesity: effects of glucose and fructose].
" Data confirm the existence of reduced thermogenesis in obese subjects induced by glucose. The fact that this phenomenon was not recorded in the same subjects following the fructose tolerance test, whose metabolism is insulin-independent, supports the hypothesis that reduced glucose-induced thermogenesis in obese subjects may depend on insulin resistance."
Am J Clin Nutr 1993 Nov;58(5 Suppl):766S-770S. Fructose and dietary thermogenesis. Tappy L, Jequier E.
"Obese individuals and obese patients with non-insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus commonly have a decrease in glucose-induced thermogenesis. These individuals in contrast display a normal thermogenesis after ingestion of fructose. This may be explained by the fact that the initial hepatic fructose metabolism is independent of insulin."
I really suggest these to articles up for reads, like, a real read. READ.
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/glycemia.shtml
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/diabetes.shtml
If people want to assume it's the sugar, any sugar, well, then it's unfair. It's just what is expected. Blood sugar..sugar. Serum cholesterol, cholesterol. Doesn't anyone think of the other factors that do actually effect blood sugar?
Of course, it's always unfair to just go HEY Sugar! And add it into A diet, and then complain about it doing something, supposedly. It's like someone reading that saturated fat is good, adding it in their diet, and then complaining about it making them gain weight. See, IT making them gain weight. What about it being more complex than that? There are deeper problems. Saturated fat, in the right diet, will and can help a person to be completely healthy, because of the fact that it is a pro-thyroid fat, among other things.
Basically, adding it to a diet that has other anti-thyroid factors in it would be unfair. Sure it SEEMS like it's the saturated fat, because it's the only added component. But Ray Peat isn't saying "add sugar and you're good to go!" – he has other suggestions that shouldn't be skimmed over and forgotten about when trying to listen to his advice. Like, you can't eat polyunsaturated fats in such amounts and add sugar to that. Polyunsaturated fats, I think, would be the cause of the problems, NOT the sugar. Because of the fact that the fats are there to antagonize the blood sugar levels, the thyroid – as well, stress hormones, and low sodium are other factors that should be included here.
So I really don't get why sugars and fructose (refined, natural, shoved in the same category) are still being dogged on, I really don't. What about the hormones discussion? The thyroid discussion? It's a network, people, a network.
It's not just one thing causes all thyroid problems, or health problems, because Richard Johnson and T.L. Cleaves said so.
ChlOe,
I will take the time to properly read the articles you referenced.
In the mean time you should really watch this video until the end: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM Near the end Dr Lustig explains exactly why and how fructose is a toxin. No matter how the molecule came to be in your body.
"Fructose inhibits the stimulation of insulin by glucose, so this means that eating ordinary sugar, sucrose (a disaccharide, consisting of glucose and fructose), in place of starch, will reduce the tendency to store fat."
As you will see in the video, this statement has been superseded in recent years.
Believe me, you wont regret watching the diagrams of every metabolic processes that comes into play here. For sucrose, glucose and fructose. Even ethanol is there. All the pathways.
It's clear as crystal. :)
Trust me it is well worth your time. Then we will compare notes after I read the articles you referenced.
Patrick
Michael:
> Doesn't lime treated corn qualify as "traditional knowledge"?
I agree with you there. However, my personal experience has been that untreated corn seems fine for me. Even Nourishing Traditions seems to only call for it if corn is a common part of your diet. But it does seem to be something from tradition; just not sure how necessary it is. I'm open to the idea of corn really only being suitable lime-treated though.
chlOe:
I second that about anorexia. I've never been terribly happy with myself having a distended abdomen. Judging looks by appearance definitely seems the way to go. 125lbs at 5'5" could have different fat/muscle ratios for the same person, even. Fruit combined with other food can (I know, indirectly, it's probably not the fruit's fault) cause my blood sugar to surge, but alone I'm not so sure. I'm trying a mono-fruit-fast for today though of bananas. I hope it will improve my glucose and carbohydrate tolerance, and spare me some time cooking today. I kind of want to be shot right now. But I've had 5 bananas for breakfast with only a marginal blood sugar increase. I can't blame any problems. I'm starting to lean towards Ray Peat more and more, although I don't see why oils with marginal PUFAs (like peanut oil) which don't go rancid even through deep frying, would cause harm to the body. Then again, I have lots to read and really don't know. It's just a personal thought.
I want to see Patrick's video then possibly check out some of Ray Peat's articles. We'll see though. I always thought that the sugar-free anti-candida diet attempting to be as sterile as possible was a bit strange.
Oh, my carbonated water cravings have gone down. Not sure why. I'm more prone to wanting to drink more water if it isn't the water at my house, however.
Everyone:
I'm still getting flustered over my continual bloating issues. It seems like I'll go through periods where I'm just fine, and other things where I seem to get bloated no matter what I eat. I think some effects I've had are possibly delayed from gluten, but I really don't know. I seem to cycle from 5 small to medium bowel movements a day to one tiny, thick one for some days. I've certainly not put my thumb on it yet.
I've jumped 7 pounds in a week sometimes, I'm guessing from water weight and food weight in my intestines (maybe a bit of fat, too, but I hope not). When I was last doing well I was at 161lbs almost exactly a month ago. Now, the lowest I've hit is 165. Right now I'm at 168 (was 170 last night, of course I can't be angry at temporary water intake weight, but I think my urination rate is too slow). It all makes no sense to me. Oh well, I'll keep logging and eventually find a pattern. I have no doubts that it all points back to hypothyroidism, just that finding what induces it in me would probably help me heal or at least be a temporary patch.
Thanks to Troy's suggestion, I've been looking into hital hernias. There are many mixed reports on it, ranging from there being no treatments other than surgery or drugs, to that you can fix it yourself, and to that you can't. I've only found one simple self-test for it. This page has a method for testing if you have a hiatal hernia (and also says you have to have chiropractic adjustment amd can't self-adjust), which I'm not sure if I pass or not for. Yet this site doesn't give any tests, but has a self adjustment protocol. I've tried doing the self adjustment some, but am not sure if I even have it (though I think I might). I ended up getting some nasty stomach cramps last night after trying it :-(.
Fruititarianism is scary stuff. I hope I make it through today. I'm a bit suprised at how stable my blood sugar has been though. I'll have to see how things go.
Continuing comment below:
Continuing the above comment:
Oh, I forgot to mention. My saliva production lately has been pretty high and I have a strong heartbeat at times that I can often sense even without paying attention (it varies a lot though), even when the heart beat rate isn't high (I think it's called palpitations).
I tried the pupil test for adrenals again and think I actually did just fine. I don't find strong lights straight into my eyes to be too uncomfortable, my pupils stopped dialating once I got the light in the right place for long enough, I have no issues sitting up, and I sleep quite well. Glad I probably haven't killed my adrenals.
Thanks,
Teran
"I want to see Patrick's video then possibly check out some of Ray Peat's articles. We'll see though."
So, you're saying that you'll view one side of the argument (the side you agree with) but 'possibly' not the other one?
Chloe said:
Michael,
I did not know that about Egyptians! Damn, what is it with Egyptians this week. I heard of them three times already. Average age, I learned form Harper sending me a Mark Starr quote, is 35. Holy fuck! That's not very long at all. As well, Mark Starr talked about how they were fully hypothyroid. So refined oils..HMMMM! Especially if they were polyunsaturated or unsaturated. That's a big one.
Yeah they were masters of refining – seed oils and flour.
I wouldn't put to much stock into average age lived without knowing other details like infant mortality, deaths from accidents, etc. Often ancients are depicted as having short life-spans when in reality if you account for the factors mentioned above (and others), someone who reached adulthood is likely to live as long as we live today.
And depending on the culture sometimes even longer.
In reply to woman and weight – it's probably not so much just numbers, but appearance. No one wants to be skinny fat, and that can be possible at 125, 5'5". I don't know, some people are more obsessive than others, and totally focus on the scale alone; maybe even sizes of pants. I for one would rather go by inches and appearance, but that's just me.
Yes I would think at that weight appearance and inches would be the key. Maybe tone up what she already has rather than trying to wring some more pounds off the body.
And hey, guys can obsess just as much. Haven't you ever heard of Manorexia? Jeeez.
(:
Yes for sure but we were discussing this woman's story, not a man. :-)
Michael
Nutrition and Physical Regeneration
Jenny said:
Now I focus on my overall feeling of wellness: how are my allergies?
My moods? My skin? My digestion? My teeth? All these things are generally improved. Also I think I've gained a bit of tolerance. I spent the last five days at my mom's house being fed processed crap and sugar and though my digestion took a bit of a dip, it is back on track quickly since I'm home and eating my beloved bacon and eggs for breaky again.
Thanks Jenny. So your mom doesn't care how you eat or she doesn't know how you eat? Usually when I visit my folks they always have something on hand that I can eat.
Michael
Nutrition and Physical Regeneration
Chloe said:
So I really don't get why sugars and fructose (refined, natural, shoved in the same category) are still being dogged on, I really don't. What about the hormones discussion? The thyroid discussion? It's a network, people, a network.
Gotta love that passion! And all without being rude and combative. :-)
Michael
Nutrition and Physical Regeneration
Sega01 said:
I agree with you there. However, my personal experience has been that untreated corn seems fine for me. Even Nourishing Traditions seems to only call for it if corn is a common part of your diet. But it does seem to be something from tradition; just not sure how necessary it is. I'm open to the idea of corn really only being suitable lime-treated though.
I agree that most things on an occasional basis aren't a big deal if you are whole and well. I'm not even sure how long it would take for a problem eating corn that has not been nixtamalized to show up.
I'd rather refer to Weston Price himself rather than Nourishing Traditions on some things, and it seems to me treating any grain is an awful lot of trouble if it doesn't confer any benefit. And by treating I include refining because some of the African tribes refined their grains.
Michael
Nutrition and Physical Regeneration
Oh man, Patrick, you are giving me a brain work out here typing out this huge comment in regards to this movie. I'm about 45 minutes in. I won't ruin any of what I will say, but, so far it's not too..aah..positive towards the video..haha. So I agree with Harper, don't neglect Peat if you watch that videno.
Teran,
If you eat bananas, and you have poor digestion or bloating, I would be careful. Because when I was eating mostly fruit, they did not digest well at all. I've been told it's because they are a starchy fruit. You may want to try some less offensive fruits like peaches or citrus fruits or perhaps cherries as a few I can think of. I would have trouble with fruits that had a lot of seeds in them before as well – with other foods; but right now I have no trouble with the peaches and the orange juice included. Not all fruit are made equal, ya know; at least not for the digestively inclined.
Also, any polyunsaturated fat goes rancid when exposed to oxygen or heat. It's because it's unsaturated, and the most unstable.
I think Peanut oil is mostly mono, but still has a bit of poly fats in it. The fact that it's low in saturated fat is where the problem would be, I think.
About being bloated – do you eat a lot of vegetables? I noticed right away when I took them out that the inflammation in my gut got way better. You know when you suck your stomach in really tight (haha sorry if that's weird) – or maybe laying on something that put a lot of pressure on your abdomen? When I did that I would feel like a pinch and a pain, but literally, a day or two after removing vegetable fibers, that was gone.
And so far bloating and digestion has improved a lot for me after following Peat's advice, and upon taking cynomel. Though, it's my temperatures that are always random – but I have a feeling stress effects that more than anything.
Things will randomly get worse at times, too. But if they are continually bad that's when I get all what-the-fuck like. Whereas sometimes it's like a dip and a raise! And another 'what the hell happened there?'.
Michael,
Veerry true on the Egyptian topic. I've heard infant mortality was higher "back then" than it is today, so that probably is a huge thing there. As well, environmental factors and things of that sort.
In regards to treating and refining, I think that those, or most, cultures must have had a lot of variety, no?
Andrew,
About your question from the other day, I'm not very familiar with the Nutri-meds glandular product… do they list a T3/T4 mcg content? I thought I had read somewhere that by law the over-the-counter products had to have all the active hormone removed. I actually just found out from the Stop the Thyroid Madness site that the "Thiroyd" I am taking has slightly different amounts of T3 and T4 than Armour or Nature-throid. It has 8.31 mcg of T3 and 35 mcg of T4 per grain, whereas the standard in the others seems to be 9 mcg T3 and 38 mcg T4. They have a pretty comprehensive breakdown of all the options here with ingredient lists and comments- http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/armour-vs-other-brands/
Chloe,
That's a really good point you bring up about atherosclerosis. Chris Masterjohn wrote a piece discussing atherosclerosis in the Masai who were certainly not dying of heart attacks. It mentions that in one study they were found to have a lot of plaque that didn't cause problems because their blood vessels were more dilated than usual* (* my theory being that if your sense of the usual is someone who is hypothyroid!) So it seems like is you are Masai you are fine, although if you have atherosclerosis and were living and eating in Graz in the 20th century then you were probably in a lot of trouble.
For me it changes the perspective on what the real goal should be- to avoid everything in life that might put stress on the body / possibly cause harm, or to try and strengthen the body enough that it can deal with or bypass the stress (in this case arterial plaque) so that you can live a perfectly healthy life.
Barnes also mentions in some of those articles that when he would treat his diabetic patients with thyroid that it wouldn't cure their diabetes, but would prevent them from ending up with the horrible complications of the disease like lost vision or limbs. I think he attributes this to the increase in blood flow… possibly the same mechanism that would cause an increase in vessel dilation in the Masai?
I'd like to hear more of your thoughts on the Lustig video. I'm sure the biochemistry is all correct, but the way he paints the picture as if there were only two options- a complete avoidance of fructose because of how "toxic" it is or to be one of the people who gorge themselves on the stuff until their metabolism is broke – totally misses the point in my eye of how a reasonable person should consume the stuff in their life while staying healthy.
ChlOe,
Thank you for the links. Those were very interesting reading. I agree with Ray that PUFA vegetable oils are really bad for us.
"The bulk of the age-related tissue damage classified as ?glycation end-products? (or ?advanced glycation end-products,? AGE) is produced by decomposition of the polyunsaturated fats, rather than by sugars, and this would be minimized by the protective oxidation of glucose to carbon dioxide."
This quote was news to me. It's interesting to know that PUFA are worst than glucose in producing AGEs.
Regarding fructose, I'm sorry about the first part of the video, but it can't be helped. :) I hope you found the info towards the end interesting though?
Ray's biggest argument in favor of sucrose(fructose) is that it has less of an impact on insulin compared to glucose (thus starches). And of course, fructose has no direct impact on insulin since only the liver can metabolize it.
But as we have learned from Dr Lustig's video, recent experiments on the subject has brought to light crucial information on the impact of fructose metabolism.
Fructose has a great indirect impact on insulin. It directly contributes in making us insulin resistant, as explained by Dr Lustig. So now that I know this, I cannot view fructose as healthy.
That said, like Dr Lustig mentioned, when you consume fructose as part of fruits, you are actually getting the antidotes with it. Everything that is needed to cleanup the mess that fructose leaves in the liver and elsewhere. There is no such counter balance when you get it from added sucrose or even worse, stuff like agar syrup (80% fructose). And to think this stuff is regarded as an healthy sugar. Ouch !
So what are you thoughts everyone?
Patrick
I don't have enough faith in fiber and plant antioxidants to feel that there's really any difference on the liver from ingesting 20 grams of fructose from an orange as opposed to sugar or honey.
Peat talks about the potassium in orange juice having a positive effect on blood sugar, but that relates to glucose metabolism, not fructose. He also says you can mix sugar into a glass of milk for the same purpose. I've heard of people taking milk thistle before a night out drinking to help with alcohol induced liver damage, but the active compound in that (silymarin) is so specific that I doubt there is anything like it in fruit.
Bruce K always used to talk about raw honey as being much safer than heated honey, but I don't think there is any evidence for that.
I took Lustig's point about fiber in the video to be that before you could refine sugar cane, it would have taken way too much chewing to get any meaningful amount of fructose out of it. But what about grapes, pears or oranges than anyone could easily sit around and eat all day?
What I really wonder is how many pounds of sugar someone would have to eat every year before they actually get themselves into trouble? And does that amount change when PUFAs are reduced to around 5% of total calories?
I don't have enough faith in fiber and plant antioxidants to feel that there's really any difference on the liver from ingesting 20 grams of fructose from an orange as opposed to sugar or honey.
Peat talks about the potassium in orange juice having a positive effect on blood sugar, but that relates to glucose metabolism, not fructose. He also says you can mix sugar into a glass of milk for the same purpose. I've heard of people taking milk thistle before a night out drinking to help with alcohol induced liver damage, but the active compound in that (silymarin) is so specific that I doubt there is anything like it in fruit.
Bruce K always used to talk about raw honey as being much safer than heated honey, but I don't think there is any evidence for that.
I took Lustig's point about fiber in the video to be that before you could refine sugar cane, it would have taken way too much chewing to get any meaningful amount of fructose out of it. But what about grapes, pears or oranges than anyone could easily sit around and eat all day?
What I really wonder is how many pounds of sugar someone would have to eat every year before they actually get themselves into trouble? And does that amount change when PUFAs are reduced to around 5% of total calories?
Sorry, double post! ^
"Owen said: But what about grapes, pears or oranges than anyone could easily sit around and eat all day?"
They were available only in season.
There is even an hypothesis about the effects fruits have on the metabolism being used to prepare for hibernation. The body sees this fructose as a signal that it needs to store fat for the winter.
Patrick
I found it in writing. For those who wants to skip the video. :)
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/healthreport/stories/2007/1969924.htm
"Norman Swan: What is it about this, it's got more calories than ordinary sugar weight for weight hasn't it?
Robert Lustig: No, actually it's not the calories that are different it's the fact that the only organ in your body that can take up fructose is your liver. Glucose, the standard sugar, can be taken up by every organ in the body, only 20% of glucose load ends up at your liver. So let's take 120 calories of glucose, that's two slices of white bread as an example, only 24 of those 120 calories will be metabolised by the liver, the rest of it will be metabolised by your muscles, by your brain, by your kidneys, by your heart etc. directly with no interference. Now let's take 120 calories of orange juice. Same 120 calories but now 60 of those calories are going to be fructose because fructose is half of sucrose and sucrose is what's in orange juice. So it's going to be all the fructose, that's 60 calories, plus 20% of the glucose, so that's another 12 out of 60 — so in other words 72 out of the 120 calories will hit the liver, three times the substrate as when it was just glucose alone.
That bolus of extra substrate to your liver does some very bad things to it.
Norman Swan: Dr Robert Lustig who's Professor of Pediatric Endocrinology at the University of California, San Francisco. And you're listening to a Health Report special here on ABC Radio National on how food manufacturers by adding fructose to our foods, either from corn syrup as in the United States or added sucrose as in Australia, may actually be making the obesity epidemic even worse, starting with damage to our liver cells, the hepatocytes.
Robert Lustig: The first thing it does is it increases the phosphate depletion of the hepatocyte which ultimately causes an increase in uric acid. Uric acid is an inhibitor of nitric oxide, nitric oxide is your naturally occurring blood pressure lowerer. And so fructose is famous for causing hypertension.
Norman Swan: High blood pressure. And what you're saying here is that the liver cell itself gets depleted of this phosphate and then you've got this downstream reaction.
Robert Lustig: That's right. And so when you have excess uric acid you're going to end up with increased blood pressure and we actually have data from the NHANES study in America, the National Health and Nutritional Examination Survey in America which actually shows that the most obese hypertensive kids are making more uric acid and have an increased percentage of their calories coming from fructose.
Norman Swan: Are they getting gout as well?
Robert Lustig: Well not yet. They will.
Norman Swan: So what you're saying in fact is that whilst we are clearly eating too much, we're passively eating too much of the wrong thing, that the food manufacturing industry is putting stuff in which is fuelling the epidemic?
Robert Lustig: Absolutely, we're being poisoned to death, that's a very strong statement but I think we can back it up with very clear scientific evidence.
Norman Swan: There's clear scientific evidence on this fructose pathway in the liver?
Robert Lustig: There's clear scientific evidence on the fructose doing three things that are particularly bad in the liver. The first is this uric acid pathway that I just mentioned, the second is that fructose initiates what's known as de novo lipogenesis.
Norman Swan: Which is fat production.
Robert Lustig: Excess fat production and so VLDL, very low density lipoproteins end up being manufactured when you consume this large bolus of fructose in a way that glucose does not, and so that leads to dyslipidaemia."
Continued on next post…
Continued from previous post…
"Norman Swan: And that's the bad form of cholesterol.
Robert Lustig: That's correct. And then the last thing that fructose does in the liver is it initiates an enzyme called Junk one, and Junk one has been shown by investigators at Harvard Medical School basically is the inflammation pathway and when you initiate Junk one what happens is that your insulin receptor in your liver stops working. It's phosphorylated in a way that basically inactivates it, serum phosphorylation it's called and when your insulin receptor doesn't work in your liver that means your insulin levels all over your body have to rise. And when that happens basically you're going to interfere with normal brain metabolism of the insulin signal which is part of this leptin phenomenon I mentioned before. It's also going to increase the amount of insulin at the adipocyte storing more energy. And you put all of this together and basically you've got a feed forward system of increased insulin, increased liver fat, liver deposition of fat, increased inflammation — you end up with non-alcoholic fatty liver disease. You end up with your inability to see your leptin and so you consume more fructose and you've now got a viscious cycle out of control.
In fact fructose, because of the way it's metabolised, is actually damaging your liver the same way alcohol is. In fact it's the exact same pathway, in fact fructose is alcohol without the buzz."
I hope that was informative.
Patrick
Um..animals' tissues increase in free fatty acids to prepare for hibernation; aka unsaturated fats. That's been discussed before, and Peat mentions hibernation quite a few times in his articles.
Now prepare for the longness.
That was a quote from Ray Peat – about the sucrose versus starch. I wasn't agreeing or disagreeing with it, but someone had asked if dextrose was better and if he thought so, but he is in fact for fructose. That's what I was pointing out. I for one am totally leaning on his side about fruit and it's properties, and unsure about refined sugars – but not for the reasons that Lustig happens to give – at least. As for starch, I don't think Ray Peat is as simple as to just say eating starch will make you fat. In fact he says,
"There isn't anything wrong with a high carbohydrate diet, and even a high starch diet isn't necessarily incompatible
with good health, but when better foods are available they should be used instead of starches. For example, fruits have
many advantages over grains, besides the difference between sugar and starch. Bread and pasta consumption are strongly
associated with the occurrence of diabetes, fruit consumption has a strong inverse association"
I believe people like to assume he is strict and avoidant and extreme, when he often seems to just thinks of things as
being better than other things, and better to use as a main part of the diet, as in fruit versus grains. He's not
saying "grains are poison stay the hell away from them!".
I know that cultures ate starches without problems, but also had ways of preparing them so that they had all vitamins
intact, and that they were also not refined. Since someone brought up African tribes refining their grains – did they also have an otherwise varied diet?
In regards to this long ass video (and sorry this is so long, and may be repeated at parts because I'm typing my thoughts as I watch),
First of all,
Lustig says right away,
Atkins diet, and Japanese diet,
"What do they have in common? They both work."
I wasn't aware they "both work".
He thinks it's a mistake to count calories, and that's true, but calories obviously matter, and they matter if the metabolism is low, which is why people believe that and assume it works.
He is being extremely vague about countries gaining weight over the years from adopting our diet. Our diet has more than just refined, *refined* fructose in it. It has vegetable oils and industrialized allergens as well – from all the refinement and processing that we do.And I think he's trying to separate one biochemical action from the rest, as if thyroid and metabolism aren't linked with the body at all. It's just fructose goes to the liver and causes 'this'.
On people eating more carbohydrates – that's also vague. Yes, he has points that the current diet is speeding up the obesity rate, but maybe it's because the carbohydrates people are eating are refined and deprived of nutrients, and the fat they're eating is less, but also horrible, because it most likely isn't saturated only. There's more toxins in the American diet; and the FDA is not too strict about things other countries are. People are simply not eating just fructose alone – but with things, and often in things. No one seems to drink just soda and that's it. If someone drinks soda and is obese or overweight, I doubt it's because of just the soda. Sugar seems like it's dragged in when there's both starch and vegetable oil involved–especially in most junk food. They're all used together to trigger that addiction to it – while promoting inflammation, obesity, and common diseases and endocrine problems. When Lustig brings up sugar in fruit, he barely skims it, saying "oh, well, it's good because fiber and nutrients take care of it".
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(sorry about that line problem; I was writing in ghetto notepad and when I pasted it it did that)
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What if refined fructose is bad because of just the fact that it's combined with bad things and missing others; or has been contaminated, like drinking water can be? Who wants to drink tap water when there's other water? In this case, it's not the water, but the fact that one is tap, and one is water. It can have no minerals and still be water; but can be fluoridated water as well. The water is then blaimed for being water, because of the shit that's added to it. Hope that analogy made sense.
Soft drinks and fruit drinks — depends on exactly what soft drink and what fruit drink, and what their ingredients are. Soft drinks in America have loads of either refined fructose or imitations of sugar. Fruit drinks can now be from concentrate, with sugar added, without sugar, even still – it's not clear enough to blame that alone, to blame it JUST on the fructose – if refined and natural are even the same. As well, if they're eating THAT much fructose — why is it that the fructose causes these things, not the excess calories that are being consumed as fructose? The mercury that has been found in traces in high fructose corn syrup? The fact that vegetable oils are a huge part, most likely, of their calories, and the fact that it's probably fucking up all their thyroids? Weight is not the only thing to a healthy person. You can still eat hardly any calories and seem a good weight (or "BMI" which I think is a poor measurement in the first place).
I would like to see the other countries that have adopted sodas, who may use sugar instead of fructose corn syrup and if their obesity rate goes up synonymously – more than 7 countries. If that's the only thing they change. It's way way way too general to be accepted as fact. It's like T. Colin Campbell bitching about casein and milk products and saying, oh in these countries meat is eaten or animal protein is eaten and cancer rates skyrocket, and then goes into a "science" (bullshit) of explaining that animal proteins cause cancer.
He leaves out countries who have little cancer or CHD and who eat a ton of meat. And, instead, keeps in ones so it looks like the more meat you eat, the more cancer you get.
Lustig's also saying coca-cola hasn't changed their ingredients since 1915, but obviously they have because of the fact that they used to put cocaine in it. As well, the discovery of high fructose corn syrup made them be able to make more money because of how cheap that product is, which he also explains later. Their sizes increasing would be plausible to say that perhaps if people continue to eat more and more, with poor metabolisms, their weight could be attributed to the amount of food that is possible to easily consume – with symptoms he later explains as a part of the contamination in the refined product as well as the mear fact that most obese people all have the same poor hormone balance in some shape or form.
The calories you eat from the sodas don't necessarily mean you automatically gain weight, especially if everyone has different metabolic rates. So I don't get what his point was on that.
He's also against caffeine, which I'm unsure about, but he definitely hasn't supported his theory that it's bad – and there are such a thing as caffeine free sodas.
Back to sugar and sodas, they're still a refined beverage, with other additives.
As well, he never went into detail on Type 2 Diabetes being caused by fructose in that study he presented. What else was in their diet.. It's the same as someone saying they added saturated fat to these people's diets, and then went on to blame it for anything they saw happen after that.
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Soft drinks are more than water and sugar. They're water and corn syrup, and fructose, and phosphoric acid and whatever else.
Of course corn syrup companies are going to say their products are the same as sucrose and pay for whatever studies they can to prove that. It doesn't make it fact – and doesn't rule out the fact that you have to refine it and up the chances of the chemical pollutants in the corn syrup a lot more than sugar – but why the hell would they mention that on their pro-corn syrup website? As well, how much of these products you have to eat to become obese? JUST these products alone – no other food involved. If that can be answered. Like, 4 sodas a day? 3? More? Less? If you're drinking nothing but sodas, where the hell are the other nutrients coming from? Is it even possible to get such an excess of sugar from natural sources? Even so, it would make a huge difference because your receiving the nutrients from the natural source, whereas you're getting nill with the refined. It's like saying the glucose in a potato is bad from studying refined flour. He points that out later..but never explains the fruit further.
While he may have points on how big the consumption of fructose is in America (though, we also have a huge consumption of meat and food largely – so that's a bit general), he didn't talk at all about how fructose is levulose, and how fruit and natural sugars, like honey ("Honey gets its sweetness from the monosaccharides fructose and glucose and has approximately the same relative sweetness as that of granulated sugar (97% of the sweetness of sucrose, a disaccharide)." — NO FIBER) are the same. Just that fructose is generally poison.
So he agrees with the corn syrup companies, and doesn't even elaborate on how they're correct. They just "have studies".
He himself fails to realize that "juice" can be more than just fruit squeezed into a cup. Even still, never goes into context of the studies.
When he says fructose has gone up in America – and that's it, that's why we're fat..it's also vague. I'm pretty sure soy has been added to almost every product, just as fructose is. Soy consumption, I bet, has gone up in America over the past years. So has vegetable oil; citric acids, and guar gums. So has meat even–why Campbell drew his own conclusions.
"Now more than ever, America is a Nation of meat eaters. In 2000, total meat consumption (red meat, poultry, and fish) reached 195 pounds (boneless, trimmed-weight equivalent) per person, 57 pounds above average annual consumption in the 1950s (table 2-1). Each American consumed an average of 7 pounds more red meat than in the 1950s, 46 pounds more poultry, and 4 pounds more fish and shellfish. " http://www.usda.gov/factbook/chapter2.htm
So has vegetables,
"Total vegetable consumption in 2000 was 23 percent above average annual vegetable consumption in the 1970s. As in the case of fruit, fresh vegetable use (up 26 percent during the same period) outpaced processed vegetable use (up 21 percent). "
Oh look, so has refined grains,
"Per capita use of flour and cereal products reached 200 pounds in 2000 from an annual average of 155 pounds in the 1950s and 138 pounds in the 1970s, when grain consumption was at a record low (table 2-5). The expansion in supplies reflects ample grain stocks; strong consumer demand for variety breads, other instore bakery items, and grain-based snack foods; and increasing fast-food sales of products made with buns, doughs, and tortillas."
And I have no idea about soy, but, tofu is like probably making killer amounts of money.
So are we seeing how silly it is to assume it's fructose when other things rise as well?
When he begins to talk about how fat consumption causes CHD..and demonstrates, what? 7 countries? Is France even on their? One of the lowest CHD rates..lots of sugar, and lots of saturated fat. I believe it was near as low CHD as Japan. So how can he even begin to blame sugar when there's only 7 countries being looked at? De ja vu of Campbell, de ja vuuuuu.
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So yeah, definitely obvious American companies are out for profit, and it makes sense why someone would try to buy the cheapest thing possible and make it taste delicious, no matter how bad it MAY be – but those are a combination of things.
His points about fructose causing hunger – I think that's in the amounts that refined fructose are eaten, correct? Again, I'm confused over if refined and unrefined are simply the same. If he's comparing refined glucose to refined fructose, I just don't get how this is relavant to sugar. In one part, he says fructose is all the same. Glucose must be all the same as well than. But I think we all know that refined anything is going to be different from unrefined anything (going by what Price discovered..whethere it's lack of nutrients, or something else). Say someone finds something wrong with glucose..just assume..is now glucose a poison, and the things in unrefined grains become "antidotes"? Like, what the fuck.
How can he prove that there are no industrial contaminants in the refined fructose they are using? Or other problems with it? If there are studies that show fructose helping people more than glucose, I don't understand how it could be called a poison. For example, the studies that showed fructose improved thermogenesis in obese and diabetic subjects.
He assumes that all the science is right that he's explaining. I don't know, I just think there's more to it than just what a liver supposedly does to fructose, and if these few sugars dictate where fat is stored, and those are the only things that dictate that. And that insulin is the only thing that dictates fat storage and blood sugar; and leptin is the only thing that has to do with hunger and diabetics.
Going back to fructose and ATP – I actually was trying to start a discussion with Peat about the refinement of sugars. I asked him of the ATP explanations that both Lustig and Johnson have brought up, to which, Peat had said that
"Lowering ATP production, per calorie eaten and oxygen consumed, will tend to reduce obesity; it's called "uncoupling" of phosphorylation from oxygen consumption, and it turns calories into heat, and protects against free radicals. The article Uncoupled and surviving, by Speakman, et al., abstract below, describes some good effects of lowering ATP production per calorie used."
I can e-mail anyone the abstract if they wish to see it.
Regarding ethanol..there are studies that Peat mentions about alcohol, explaining that animals overconsuming alcohol had absolutely no fatty liver with consumption of saturated fat; and animals who consumed unsaturated fats all contracted fatty liver (cirrhosis) from the alcohol. so I wonder if he's leaving out how major factors that most people do consume terrible things with fructose – namely, vegetable oils, and again, perhaps contaminants- effect what their liver does and doesn't do, and that impact on every other bodily function. It's also interesting to see how common fermented sugar and sugar is around the world.
Also, haha, he talks about uric acid that Richard Johnson is so fond of. If their claims were false on uric acid, than this would dismiss his theory that uric acid causes all these problems: gout, high blood pressure, yadayadayada. He doesn't go into the actual studies, either. Studies that tried to lower uric acid with drugs were simply lowering uric acid – they were not focused on a whole picture; kind of like a person seeing results from taking out salt or fat or taking an anti-depressant or bio-identical hormone. It is not always synonymous, just because it appears to be, if that makes sense, as I think people should have realized by now; you know, the network thing
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If people eat more pounds of fructose, though, I know he mentioned calories – but I didn't get a full blown answer about that. I think it is very possible, that because it's so easy to over eat, and because of the fact that they are also most likely eating some shitty foods along with the fructose that damages their thyroid and metabolism, that they suddenly gain more and more weight from the never ending hunger and continuous eating — which could simply be attributed to the fact that they are starving for nutrients; why some obese people who have turned to raw foods suddenly loose a ton of weight and feel good. The fat cells and other things become a problem for various things after someone is obese, but fructose is his main target, and so he makes it seem as if fructose is the base of all problems (and a "poison").
I disagree, obviously, that fiber is a neccessary nutrient.
His focus is mostly on insulin, and when he brings up exercise, he includes cortisol in the discussion. I think it's stupid to say exercise reduces stress, for one.
He also fails to include other parts of what people were eating in studies, and instead just claims "sugar added in caused these problems" – but how if you don't know what else someone was doing?
Fiber curing Type 2 (not type 1, no, not type 1) diabetes, that's also like. Ok, sure, man. 'Cause insulin's the only problem with type 2 diabetics.
McDonald's – what about the vegetable oil?
Gatorade – Anyone heard of football? "GAaaaatttoooraaaadeee"..
Formula – soy protein isolate, high oleic safflower oil, and soy oil are all included in that formula. It is probably high in sugar because they are trying to mimic human breast milk's sweetness; not get hem hooked on it.. I think all he said about sweetness is fucking stupid because our milk is naturally sweet.
He mentions nothing about how glucose can be stored as fat.
When he brings up tobacco, I actually think of the Kitavans. I think of the cigarrettes in America. What else is in cigarrettes in America? Oh, a whooole lot of fucked up shit! How many people have lung cancer in Kitava versus America? And people are against tobacco..because? It is in fact natural, and it's not the tobacco causing people to get lung cancer alone. People smoke weed without cancer, mind you; I beg to differ if weed had traces of rat poison in it and various other things.
He's got some good politics.
But all in all, I disagree strongly that fructose is the poison, and instead, blame the proccess in which these things are refined and what they are combined with, which are blatently ignored; as well, the health of the individuals consuming these things.
Sooo it's not clear at all– it's practically muddy, and as Billy Bush would say "It's Gross" – quite bitter.
So I had to watch that hour and 30 minutes, now you gotta read all this! haha
Wow ChlOe, that was a long post! ;-)
I did finally find Dr Lustig's explanation on fructose in writing. Posted just before your long post.
And by the way, I do agree that it's not just the fructose. Obesity has a lot of combined causes. But I'm sure it's contributing.
Personally, I just cannot ignore the science and the metabolic pathways of fructose. When you digest food, once the enzymes has gotten to it and broken it down to its basic molecules, fructose is the same in the blood stream wherever it came from natural or refined sources. Refining just makes it so that we can have a lot more of it in our diet.
So on this I rest my case. I believe we will simply have to agree to disagree on the matter. :-)
Patrick
You would be able to ignore that science if it was false, or if it didn't matter, or if it was different in different situations.
I think the amounts of fructose eaten and having to be processed in a liver is one thing; just like 10,000 calories everyday is one thing.
If you want to just assume Lustig has correct science, that's on you.
Michael said:
"Thanks Jenny. So your mom doesn't care how you eat or she doesn't know how you eat? Usually when I visit my folks they always have something on hand that I can eat."
In a word, "no." My mom and her boyfriend are into weight watchers. They both start out the day with toast and jam and not much else. I guess because they don't eat very many calories its supposed to be good. All the food on offer was highly processed, high in sugar, low in fat. There were a lot of lovely fresh garden veggies to eat but only "I can't believe it's not butter to dowse them in." I want to say, look, this diet is not good for you. Dieting is bad. You both work hard outside all day you need to eat a good solid cooked breakfast and lunch, but frankly I don't do that any more. I don't rag my mom about smoking. I don't nag her to deal with her pyschological problems. I love her, but I don't really think I'm going to fix her. It may sound selfish but I'm sure I'm not the only one her with an unsupportive family member to deal with. Also I figure I have to give this some more time to work on myself before I start preaching to others about it.
But ChlOe, I am not assuming anything. There are a lot of experiments confirming those pathways. I could link them, but I do not think you would be interested in reviewing them. So I won't waste my time and yours. :)
Gary Taubes and Weston A. Price have clearly shown that just bringing: caffeine, sugar and refined starches to a natural people was enough for them to start developing all the disease of civilization.
This was without our modern refining techniques. And we know that it is not the carbs themselves. So even without our knowledge of the science, we could mostly put the blame on caffeine and sugar.
Taubes has elected to go after all carbs. I disagree with him. I think we can demonstrate now, that it is only certain carbs and other factors that results in the metabolic syndrome, thus obesity.
Patrick
Jenny, I'm definitely going through that too. You're not alone! My family rolls their eyes and changes the subject when I begin to talk about something I've learned. But now I know that I can't make anyone listen to what I have to say (food wise) unless they're genuinely interested about it…I'm not going to be "that girl" that constantly brings up why this and that isn't healthy. It causes way too much tension. But I get tired of hearing things like, "This Jell-O pudding cup is a healthy dessert because it's sugar free and has 60 calories!"
I'm sad that they won't let me share something vital and life-changing with them. But like you said, I need to concentrate on myself because I can't fix other people. That was a fucking good lesson for me to learn though! Thanks again for sharing.
I don't think you are understanding what I'm saying. But if you don't want to go in depth, that's again, on you. It wouldn't be wasting my time if it made any practical sense.
Weston Price thought it was nutritional deficiencies that people experienced – not that the refined products actually caused problems; they lacked nutrition. So you can't fully blame anything, because of the factors involved. It could be a plethora of things.
I don't think carbohydrates factor in with the "metabolic syndrome", for reasons I've expressed above, that you have not tried to address.
I'm not set in stone on this, but, there's a lot of information against people attacking fructose and only fructose that I feel people are simply ignoring.
Also – fruit are not seasonal in the tropics and near the equator, where islanders are some of the most flourishing people we've got on this earth.
Elsewhere where fruit are seasonal, the tribes got their nutrition such as vitamin C from other places – like the rich source of C in the stomach lining of ruminants or the actual thyroid gland.
So someone can't just eat beef and milk and say that isn't seasonal, but fruit is. Depends on the region..
Ok I understand what you mean ChlOe. About the nutritional value of their food being lower after the arrival of civilized eating.
Believe me I really want to believe you. I guess the only thing preventing me is the effects these things have on me. Since I stopped ingesting caffeine and sugar, I'm fine.
So maybe I can try adding sugar back after I fixed my metabolism/thyroid and see what that does to me.
I would really like to know what Matt's take is on all of this?
Patrick
But did you take certain things out at the same time, and like, were you eating them on a different diet? What were you eating them with?
The one thing I think someone has to do is to try and understand if something seems to work a certain way under different circumstances. It's hard to tell otherwise what was the real problem – and if the problem is not in the food, but in a person.
I'm not saying I know this whole sugar thing as fact, because I still question my own self. The only reason why I bring up these topics is for people's sake and myself. It's a way to express why I'm trying this certain diet, and why I have strong feelings towards trying it. If you don't find you agree with it, then you should go with your instinct. But if you feel like maybe you jumped to conclusions, perhaps you did, perhaps you didn't. I can't say what happens and doesn't happen to you because I'm not you, and I don't have any of your experience.
I can share my experience, and you can share yours – but it must be clear, and not simply a "I took this out and felt this"; because there may indeed be other factors.
I would say to just try be sure of (or strive towards) what is fact, and what simply seems to be fact.
ChlOe, I'm curious. Do we actually know what is the perfect way of eating according to Ray Peat ?
Thanks,
Patrick
I don't think anyone does, and I think he probably acknowledges that; but he also has very good points.
He has good points. But the only way to find out about fructose is with real long term double blind experiments. And we know that's not going to happen, way too costly. :(
I'm sick of correlations. I want to see the true arrow of causality! :-)
Patrick
Well, I think using what people have as an experiment (themselves) is game enough, ay? Try to find what feels best and makes the most sense, and until that stops working – if it ever does – keep on doing it.
I just try to look for universal answers.
AH, who needs long term studies.
At least we can assume that eating a majority or all of a diet from refined, nutrient-less foods is pretty numb-nutted.
And I'm with you on wanting to just know all the answers. That would certainly make things a lot easier.
Chloe said:
In regards to treating and refining, I think that those, or most, cultures must have had a lot of variety, no?
In terms of how they treated their foods? Yes. It largely depended on the food. For example, short of refining, rice is very difficult to treat although Stephen at Whole Health Source seems to have found a way. As far as corn it seems nixtamalization was the primary method.
Michael
Nutrition and Physical Regeneration
So are some arguing here that even naturally occurring fructose is always bad, despite the ample evidence of healthy groups who eat a lot of the stuff, albeit on a seasonal basis?
Michael
Nutrition and Physical Regeneration
Not me. In my understanding, fructose would only be bad when it is out of place. Concentrated and/or added to something.
Patrick
Hey Matt, I just listened to your September 22 podcast. It is possible that a part of the surge in new members you talked about came from forum.lowcarber.org
I started a thread about the High Everything diet there and it is currently at 1,795 views and 116 replies :-)
Anyway, great if that brings people here. And welcome to new readers from the forum.
Patrick
Chronic Subclinical Scurvy
I found this while looking up possible causes of chronic low body temperature. It's not always about the thyroid.
http://www.mall-net.com/cathcart/titrate.html
"Well-nourished humans usually contain not much more than 5 grams of vitamin C in their bodies. Unfortunately, the majority of people have far less ascorbate than this amount in their bodies and are at risk for many problems related to failure of metabolic processes dependent upon ascorbate. This condition is called CHRONIC SUBCLINICAL SCURVY (12).
If a disease is toxic enough to allow for the person's potential consumption of 100 grams of vitamin C, imagine what that disease must be doing to that possible 5 grams of ascorbate stored in the body. A condition of ACUTE INDUCED SCURVY is rapidly induced. Some of this increased metabolic need for ascorbate undoubtedly occurs in areas of the body not primarily involved in the disease and can be accounted for by such functions as the adrenals producing more adrenaline and corticoids; the immune system producing more antibodies, interferon (19, 20), and other substances to fight the infection; the macrophages utilizing more ascorbate with their increased activity; and the production and protection of c-AMP and c-GMP with the subsequent increased activity of other endocrine glands (21), etc. Also, there must be a tremendous draw on ascorbate locally by increased metabolic rates in the primarily infected tissues. The infecting organisms themselves liberate toxins which are neutralized by ascorbate, but in the process destroy ascorbate. The levels of ascorbate in the nose, throat, eustachian tubes, and bronchial tubes locally infected by a 100 gram cold must be very low indeed. With this acute induced scurvy localized in these areas, it is small wonder that healing can be delayed and complications such as chronic sinusitis, otitis media, and bronchitis, etc. develop.
I had assumed that much of this ascorbate was used for functions somehow directly related to neutralizing the toxicity of viral and bacterial diseases. When ill, one has the internal sense that something of this nature is happening when bowel tolerance is approached. Recently, however, I had the personal experience of ingesting 48 grams in an hour and a half when I had a sudden hay fever reaction to roses. Upon withdrawal from the roses tolerance dropped rapidly to normal. This experience plus my experiences with many patients under emotional stress, would indicate that the adrenals are capable of utilizing large amounts of ascorbate with benefit if it is made available…"
Continued on next post…
…Continued from previous post
"…This draw on ascorbate, from whatever source, lowers the blood level of ascorbate to a negligible level. I have coined the term ANASCORBEMIA for this condition. If this anascorbemia is not rapidly rectified by the oral administration of bowel tolerance doses of ascorbic acid or by intravenous administration of ascorbate, the remainder of the body is rapidly depleted of ascorbate and put at risk for disorders of the metabolic processes dependent upon vitamin C.
The following problems should be expected with increased incidence with severe depletion of ascorbate: disorders of the immune system such as secondary infections, rheumatoid arthritis and other collagen diseases, allergic reactions to drugs, foods and other substances, chronic infections such as herpes, or sequelae of acute infections such as Guillain-Barre' and Reye's syndromes, rheumatic fever, or scarlet fever; disorders of the blood coagulation mechanisms such as hemorrhage, heart attacks, strokes, hemorrhoids, and other vascular thrombosis; failure to cope properly with stresses due to suppression of the adrenal functions such as phlebitis, other inflammatory disorders, asthma and other allergies; problems of disordered collagen formation such as impaired ability to heal, excessive scarring, bed sores, varicose veins, hernias, stretch marks, wrinkles, perhaps even wear of cartilage or degeneration of spinal discs; impaired function of the nervous system such as malaise, decreased pain tolerance, tendency to muscle spasms, even psychiatric disorders and senility; and cancer from the suppressed immune system and carcinogens not detoxified; etc. Note that I am not saying that ascorbate depletion is the only cause of these disorders, but I am pointing out that disorders of these systems would certainly predispose to these diseases and that these systems are known to be dependent upon ascorbate for their proper function.
Not only is there the theoretical probability that these types of complications associated with infections or stresses could result from ascorbate depletion, but there was a conspicuous decrease in the expected occurrence of complications in the thousands of patients treated with oral tolerance doses or intravenous doses of ascorbate. This impression of marked decrease in these problems is shared by physicians experienced with the use of ascorbate such as Klenner (8, 9) and Kalokerinos (22)"
Patrick
Hey Harper, I hear ya! The hard part is dealing with my kid who is only 3. He just won't eat meat. He lives on dairy, fruit a few veggies and starch (bread, pasta, corn, potatoes). I've been supplimenting his saturated fat by switching him back to whole milk and giving him as much butter and coconut oil as I can get into him. I try to keep him away from sugar and processed foods as much as possible but indulgent daycare, grandparents, neighbors etc. make it difficult. I hate when Grandma has cookies out and visible and she says well ask your mommy if you can have it. Talk about being put on the spot. I have a good friend who has an 8 year old who has been diagnosed as obese. They have always been very careful about limiting treats, but she manages to get enough crap outside the home that it's been a loosing battle. The only thing to do is to brainwash the kid to say no to junk food.
Question for Matt or anybody else in regards to eating a "high-calorie" diet…
How are we defining "high-calorie" here? In the mainstream nutritional lore, the magic number seems to be 2000 calories. Now, I'm sure that most of us here would agree that 2000 is way too little.
But is there a "too much"? I'm trying to heal my metabolism like many of you, and am feeling much better eating about 3000 calories/day (currently weigh 155). I'm slowly adding more, but I also know that there is a "limit," where if I eat too much, my body has a tough time digesting everything and I feel worse.
Anybody else have an idea how many calories they're eating per day?
When I counted it was in the range 1800 to 3000 calories per day.
I believe high-calorie simply means that you are not underfeeding yourself. You should not be hungry. I just eat until I am not hungry anymore.
Of course, if you have a problem with digestion and/or intolerance. Or foods that overrides your sense of hunger, you might very well stay hungry longer and/or more often.
Patrick
Patrick,
I don't think everyone thinks it's only about thyroid. There's obviously diseases that are brought on by one thing or another. Scurvy is a vitamin C deficiency.
The fact that the causes differ for scurvy (pretty simple cause) from that of hypothyroidism is something to consider. Or causes in general, of course, for any deficiency or disease.
Also, it's a bit silly to think that things in the body aren't effective of each other. If someone has adrenal problems – they may have them because they over used their adrenals so much — but an increase in stress hormones is known to suppress thyroid, and wreak havoc else where – or else adrenal fatigue and high stress hormones wouldn't be a problem. It's the same for other hormones and organs and their impact.
The body temperature would drop from stress (brought on by many things – deficiencies and all); which would make sense because of the fact that stress hormones rise under stress and would impact thyroid negatively – as thyroid impacts metabolism (basically controls it), and down goes the body temperature; and perhaps begins a vicious cycle of more than just the hormones discussed.
You guys and your commentaries. Unbelievable. You never dissapoint. Reading through the comments is like listening to my thoughts as I debate myself all day long.
"Just because T.L. Cleave said so," is not usually what I base conclusions on. Cleave, however, did one of the most important experiments on causality in history. He observed two groups that were identical except for one differing factor.
One group ate refined flour and refined sugar and the other group ate natural unrefined starches and fruits.
One group had no discernible health problems. The other developed what Cleave coined "The Saccharine Disease" which included most modern ailments. It was shown, by plain observation that exceeds what any study or laboratory could ever show, that the refinement of carbohydrates foods is the primary culprit – and nothing else.
Cleave's work is about the finest we have access to – tantamount to Price and the study on modern Kitavans.
Speaking of which, it has been well-established that cigarettes are harmful and increase risk of lung cancer and heart disease. Kitavans, however, smoke ciggies like they're going out of style and have no such problems. I think the same could probably be said for polyunsaturated fats.
They are unhealthy. I steer clear of them because they taste horrible and, being modern refined oils, the odds are stacked against them being healthy. But when it comes to root causes and causality, it would be hard, considering the work of T.L. Cleave and many other anti-refined sugar crusaders that seed oils are really the root cause. They are, to steal Cleave's verbage, "aggravating factors."
There's no doubt that a diet of refined grain, refined sugar, poly oils, caffeine, etc. is an unhealthy diet. We know that. That has been thoroughly proven.
It has also been proven that fructose-containing fruit is not the root of the so-called 'saccharine disease.' It took refinement into a druglike substance to do that. Perhaps due to lack of nutrients, perhaps due to some other factor such as a unique ability to disrupt the endocrine system, or a combination of both (most likely).
Glucose is better than fructose.
The higher the fructose content however, the more likely blood sugar is to be taken on a roller coaster ride.
The soy oil study I referred to was pointed out in Uffe Ravnskov's Cholesterol Myths. The group on soy oil had lower heart disease mortality I believe, but Ravnskov went on to show this to be statistically insignificant. At least, that's how I remember it from reading it 4 years ago. No, it wasn't a 10 or 20-year study.
And yes, blood sugar regulation can be fixed by pumping up the metabolism, making natural sugars much more tolerable.
Fruit does still make my teeth ache like a mofo though.
What indigenous cultures used refined seed oils? And like, how high of an amount was it? What percentage of the diet – intake of it versus other fats?
I assume that because the basics of sugar and starch usually take over the diet is one major reason why people experience the entitled Saccharine Disease. Is it the addition of it, or, is it the lack of natural food plus the addition of it?
What I have not yet heard is what exactly sugar and flour do to be the bad guy – to actually cause something harmful by consuming them. The only thing I can think of is the lack of nutrients – and depending on how they are refined – what else is added to them in the process. I'm not trying to back them up, cause I eat neither of them; however, I do want to understand this more, and I'd like to know if Cleaves has explained the science to it at all or if he just examined cultures.
What I have heard is the damage that polyunsaturated fats can do, real world examples, and the science to go with it. That's why I'm having trouble letting that one go — I think it's not looked at enough. Carbohydrates aren't the only problem, here.
There is logic to these fats, and I think it just makes sense for people to consume the most fats as saturated. There's some really interesting studies against the oxidation of unsaturated fats that I think you fail to acknowledge.
If cultures vary their diet enough, I wonder if the oil (perhaps with variety, it is a small amount) matters – or if there is enough vitamin E in their diet to offput the oxidation factor – that, or, either a healthy and/or fast thyroid (if they were born that way – unlike most common day folk); or, a scarcity of food, like calorie deprivation, which can reserve the saturated fats in the tissues.
No one can live without nutrients – no, that's one huge factor beyond unsaturated fats – but that doesn't make these fats better than sugar and flour.
I haven't heard much conversing over so many things brought against unsaturated fats here. It takes more than just one study on soy oil and Cleaves saying that these oils are only an aggravating factor from what he's seen. Because the popularity of unsaturated fats is huge right now, and it shows.
I also, think PUSF's are a big problem… I did a test with them on myself… i ate a shit load of seafood on a two week roadtrip to florida this month. It could just be that all the seafood i ate was loaded with toxins… but after a few days of eating scallops, shrimp, catfish, oysters, shark, etc…. not fried in soybean oil… i had odd bowel movements… i didn't feel good. I This is with a shit load of alcohol consumption too… but i know it was the PUSF's. Once i quit eating fish, and went back to eating beef, eggs, etc… my bowel movements were perfect. I ate white flour, and sugar, and my bowel movements were better than when i ate fish.
.. good to see you comment on the blog matt… i miss your word in these discussions…
troy
Matt –
PLEASE
Two requests:
1. Your thoughts on SALT – Do you use it/how much?
2. Please, can you post a plan of meals? Like, what you go through on a day like this:
Morning 7 am
6 pounds of potatoes
2 pounds butter
1 pounds beef
Evening 3pm
1 gallon milk
Night 11 pm
3 pounds of milk
Matt –
PLEASE
Two requests:
1. Your thoughts on SALT – Do you use it/how much?
2. Please, can you post a plan of meals? Like, what you go through on a day like this:
Morning 7 am
6 pounds of potatoes
2 pounds butter
1 pounds beef
Evening 3pm
1 gallon milk
Night 11 pm
3 pounds of milk
That was just an example of what I would like to see from other users!
Chloe and Half Navajo included!
Troy, I bet that it was the fact that you combined alcohol and a large amount of seafood. If that messed with your liver (like, remember the study of fatty liver which the unsaturated fats plus the alcohol caused, whereas the saturated fats plus the alcohol didn't?), then your digestion would definitely be weird.
Here's what the liver's importance is:
"It plays a major role in metabolism and has a number of functions in the body, including glycogen storage, plasma protein synthesis, and drug detoxification. This organ also is the largest gland in the human body. It lies below the diaphragm in the thoracic region of the abdomen. It produces bile, an alkaline compound which aids in digestion. It also performs and regulates a wide variety of high-volume biochemical reactions requiring specialized tissues."
Haha, I don't know, felt like adding that in. Cause with this, it would make sense, your little experiment.
Anonymous,
I think salt is great, and I use it as much as I want. Sodium plays a lot of large roles in the body, and one example would be for adrenals, which in turn, if stress hormones are controlled, can effect blood sugar and metabolism.
I mean, salt used to be traded for slaves – it's got to be worth something if it means that much to taste buds and preservation.
I definitely don't go through 6 pounds of potatoes in one day. I would say 3 and a half to 4 pounds in ..a week. Along with 3 dozen eggs, a couple meat cuts, some butter, tallow, and coconut oil, cheese, 1-2 gallons of milk, 6-7 quarts of orange juice, sometimes peaches or other fruit, and of course the salt. Again, that's in a week, give or take some things when I feel like being creative – like a recent discovery of powdered gelatin. I'm currently going for the cheapest stuff I can find (that's still good quality), hence, haha, the lack of much variety.
But yeah, I don't think you should go by what someone else eats. There's a lot of information out there (and here) for you to make a precise decision on which foods you want to and don't want to eat. That is, unless you just wanted that information because you were curious; which I think is a good enough reason.
I've totally tried to cut out "table salt" the iodized stuff you usually get at restaurants and stuff. We've always used sea salt at home for about the last 5 years or so. We use quite a bit of it, never worrying about it being too much. What I have noticed as I eat less processed foods that when I go out to eat in restaurants now, especially cheap chain places, but even nicer places that I once used to eat a lot at, everything tastes only of salt. That is the dominant flavor. I think maybe food is over-salted so they can sell more drinks and because it disguises poor quality and lazy-ass cooking. But at home, especially when we are having starchy foods: potatoes, rice, pasta, we use as much as we want. We use lots of bacon and or cheese for flavoring as well which adds salt as well.
Chloe: I saw you mention tallow. Do you make your own or can you buy it somewhere. I have some that I got from making bone broths, but I'm getting to the end of it. The bone broths are so labor intensive, I'm thinking of giving up on them for a while.
Hell yeah – foods like eggs are so bland if they're not farm fresh that they'd totally need mounds of salt — same with most butter. So I definitely agree with that logic.
Sea salt tastes way better anyway.
I get tallow from my local co-op thing that I joined to get raw dairy products, but they happened to have loads of other stuff. You can try to score extra fat from a butcher and then draw out the fat and make a huge batch so you don't have to do it often? Unless you can find a co-op near you; the realmilk website may be of interest and perhaps your chapter leader would know of any co-operations that include the sale of other products like tallow.
Anyone here knows about this guy? He seems to be on top of things.
http://www.paleonu.com/panu-weblog/2009/8/29/the-pnu-mission.html
"…my mission is simple:
When I saw a video presentation of Gary Taubes speaking out west, he was asked what he really wanted. He said that he really wanted medical doctors who were convinced of the truth in GCBC to work to change things.
I am a medical doctor so here I am.
I have no idea if Mr. Taubes would approve of everything (or anything) I say. My own reading has obviously taken me far beyond the core idea of the carbohydrate hypothesis to the other neolithic agents of disease.
I am only sharing what I believe in hopes of advancing a new dietary paradigm based on critical scientific thinking informed by multiple disciplines."
Patrick
what is your favourite fat and why (general question to one and all)?
Ray Peat says Sea Salt is BAD because it contains contaminets like mercury and other micro nutrients that can be overdosed easily. Ray Peat recommends ("refined") simple, white table salt (Sodium Chloride)
"Melissa said… what is your favourite fat and why (general question to one and all)?"
Butter, coconut oil and to a lesser degree olive oil. Because they have very little bad omega 6.
Patrick
I enjoy butter and coconut oil as well, and have been using a lot of ghee lately. They are easy to use and add good flavor (with the exception of the expeller-pressed CO with no flavor). I also take a cod liver oil supplement to increase my Vit D. and omega 3.
Wow, we really need a website forum or yahoo group, where we can divide our discussion threads accordingly!
Anywho, has Matt or anyone read "Lights Out: Sleep, Sugar, and Survival" by TS Wiley? It's quite compelling. We must factor in our daily and yearly SLEEP patterns, not just diet, to view the whole picture of human health and disease.
Is it any wonder that at the same time diseases of civilization were coming around, refined foods AND the light bulb were increasing in use? We live in eternal summer/feast, in which winter/famine never comes and we don't sleep nearly enough!
This factor can no longer be ignored.
What does that sleep book talk about?
Cause I've been trying to factor into my problems when I fall asleep and for how long; shit like that – since I've heard that the body has specific times that it works on adrenals or whatever. That could be false or some weird assumption by someone, but I'm pretty curious on the subject.
I used to be slightly insomniac with my fruit diet – really really light sleeping and I woke up a lot.
After that I've totally factored in how well I sleep with how good my health is. So I'm glad you bring up the topic! More details..pleeease.
It is said that if you don't sleep for 72 hours you start hallucinating.
Chloe and Harper,
I wanna know,
IS there a way to speed up elimination of Poly Unsaturated Fatty Acids and Transfats from the tissue? I know Ray peat says they have a half life of like 200 days, but is there a way to "detox" from these PUFAs/Trans fats, so they don't have a continuous negative impact on health when you are trying to build up health with really good foods?
What I'm trying to say is that I have eaten a lot of PUFAs and probably transfats too, in the past (like french fries, junk and fat food), and right now my health recovery seems to be going slow even though I'm eating the highest quality organic foods, raw dairy, etc. I think these PUFAs and transfats are still in the cells and are producing bad effects. How can I get them out FASTER? Is fasting a good way? Sauna? Eating sugars? (so the body doesn't use fatty acids but sugars for energy instead?)
What should I do?
I have read you make alot of sex hormones between 2am and 4am… so if you miss out on that sleep, you're pretty much going to be making estrogen and cortisol… no good…
troy
I was thinking the other day about the whole debate on cooked versus raw foods. We have the raw foodists who love to use the Pottenger cat study as proof that cooked food is unhealthy and causes disease. Yet, an all too easy rebuttal is we are not cats, further, we are not pure carnivores, even more I think its safe to say we are not like any other animal on the planet. We are very different from animals, yes we have animal needs but undeniably we are set apart from them in a big way. So, if we truly are apart of Earth's ecosystem and evolved just like the rest of every other surviving species on the planet today, what got us to this point in evolution and no other animal? Did we start doing something other animals never did? Like cooking our food? Did this start a separation from our ancestors?
They say our brain and our gut is linked, which explains "gut feelings", which to me says our instincts (animal side) is more connected to our gut brains. So, a monkey, which needs an overly large gut to digest all the raw foods and plant fiber he's eating, it makes sense that his body would make this a priority, keeping them more animal.
I believe we evolved from monkeys into humanoids when we started hunting more and eating more meat. It allowed our guts to shrink by making an easier digested food the bulk of our diet. It also provided more fat and other key elements to develop our brains. Then we took it a step further and discovered fire and started cooking our foods which inadvertently started laying the foundation for an evolutionary process the world had never seen.
We all know that cooking certain foods allows a greater amount of nutrients to be released. Also, in traditional Chinese medicine and in Ayerveda they say the digestive process should be a hot one, so I would think cooking helps start this process and ultimately allows our body to conserve more energy and utilize a greater amount of nutrients, which in turn can be allocated elsewhere like developing the brain. So for the first time, we started getting much more nutrients and energy available to us from the same foods and at the same amounts. If this would be the case I don't think it would be much of a stretch to say this started having profound effects on us.
Has anyone read anything relating to this? Or was this one of those thoughts that you get wrapped up in and just have fun expanding on your own unscientific theory?
Aaron
Raw paleo and food re-enactment.
http://www.paleonu.com/panu-weblog/2009/8/31/raw-paleo-and-food-re-enactment.html
"These comments were all made in reference to my writings here.
"In my view, promoting dairy as somehow Paleo is anti-science until someone comes up with at least a shred of evidence that Paleolithic peoples regularly drank milk for at least tens of thousands of years or that it is biochemically identical to suet, marrow, brain or intramuscular fats"
So now the definition of science is that we cannot eat a food unless we prove the impossible. That it is biochemically identical to another food (which since it is not that food, it cannot be). Anyone who reads my "what is panu?" entry sees clearly that I am interested in excluding food where we have evidence of harm. Definitions of "paleo" which just means old, after all, are all over the map. I have defined my terms carefully and until the terms paleolithic and nutrition are copyrighted, I will use them to communicate my ideas freely. I explicitly state my emphasis on metabolism over food re-enactment.
Paleolithic food re-enactment, where no one must eat of any food that cannot be definitively proven to be exactly the same as something extant before the arbitrary date of the birth of agriculture, is an impossible fantasy. Even if you could do it what is the point?
Why eliminate a food or practice without solid contemporary evidence of its harm? Why presume the only criterion of health is provenance and history?"
Patrick
chlOe, and anyone else who wants to know more (and you should!):
This book is a trip! It talks a LOT about evolution and many other "esoteric" ideas/theories. Then she mostly discusses hormones and the effect of living in constant "summer" due to electric lights, tv, computers — which she believes is perhaps MORE dangerous than any dietary component alone, and causes cancer, heart disease, schizophrenia, and what have you. Actually, much of the book is not very well written/edited, but the information is priceless!
Here's Sean Croxton's (www.UndergroundWellness.com) brief video about it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeeAVkF_TeE&feature=fvw
Haha, damn, I'm a big fan of electronic lighty things.
I don't really agree with all of what the guy's saying in that video though. He's putting a stereotype that all "cavemen" did this or that – they all lived in hot and cold areas and went through famine. The term caveman refers to lesser evolved people. It's like saying we haven't changed at all since then.
I think his ideas of the cause of disrupted hormones are generated towards fake light when it should be more towards other things.
I do agree that sleep is incredibly important, though, and a lot of people don't get enough of it.
But I'd like to hear more about the in depth of if artificial light really effects people if it's dark out and there's a light on – perhaps the specifics as well, like, for how long, and what kind of light exactly.
Depending on what caveman means, if that was by the time fire was discovered, I wonder if fire did anything that lights may do – since they were probably kept burning for security and or warmth.
I've heard of some thing that different people would have to sit up all night and keep watch while others slept – so they would flip their circadian rhythm. Whether or not that's true, I have no idea. But I figure fire may have been a smarter protector in this case.
Though, I'm not really sure how people figure out exactly what people did that long ago; and all of what we assume happened could be wrong, of course.
Anyway, I'm iffy on this subject; and I don't know a ton about it in general. Didn't realize it was geared in part towards the fake lights, though.
What do you think about this japanese study clearly showing that ingestion of milk from modern dairy practices can adversely affect human hormones right after its consumption??
http://www.eps1.comlink.ne.jp/~mayus/eng/malerisk.html
We should design an 'ideal' diet and try to work out as many kinks as we can, including exercise and sleep schedule and see if anyone improves or makes any discoveries.
Then maybe we could all go on the diet together and post about symptoms and help eachother out.
Just thought I'd throw it out there!
Jennythenipper said:
I've been supplimenting his saturated fat by switching him back to whole milk and giving him as much butter and coconut oil as I can get into him.
What about coconut milk? IMO, it is far more versatile than coconut oil. You can add the milk to many things. I also have this great cocoa "candy" recipe that tastes like a chocolate sweet but is actually loaded with saturated fat.
Michael
Nutrition and Physical Regeneration
Matt Stone:
Speaking of which, it has been well-established that cigarettes are harmful and increase risk of lung cancer and heart disease. Kitavans, however, smoke ciggies like they're going out of style and have no such problems.
This will be good news for some, and bad news for others, but upon closer examination the science behind the harmfulness of smoking is not well established at all.
Stephen did a post over on his blog trying to explain why smoking is a risk but doesn't harm some groups, but that notwithstanding the science is very poor and reveals a world of politics and intrigue that is rather interesting to say the least.
So in the words of the immortal William Dufty, you might be better off reaching for a Lucky rather than a sweet. :-)
Michael
Nutrition and Physical Regeneration
chlOe:
I would HIGHLY recommend reading the book then, since you seem so interested. It addresses all of your points, including fire and what kinds of light have a negative effect (hint: the blue/green/white lights of tv and computers mimics daylight, which turns on cortisol and inhibits melatonin). I always knew sleep was essential to health, but I literally had NO idea how important the sleep process is, what role melatonin/prolactin or seratonin/dopamine plays in our survival and how it affects ALL of the other bodily processes until I started reading this book, and I'm a pretty smart cookie!
The video I linked to is an incredibly brief overview of just a couple of points that the book discusses. And the guy in the video is not the author of the book, nor does he explain those concepts very thoroughly at all– he has to simplify things to get peoples' attention and to fit a 10 minute video.
Again, the book is "Lights Out: Sleep, Sugar, and Survival" by T.S. Wiley and Bent Formby. Your local library may have a copy.
I have read that both melatonin and serotonin are actually bad, generally for metabolism and mitochondrial respiration – so inhibiting them wouldn't be terrible. They're largely involved in torpor and hibernation, which is incredibly different than sleep.
" It wasn't until the 1960s, and later, that our present set of doctrines regarding serotonin's effects on mood and behavior came into being.
Serotonin research is relatively new, but it rivals estrogen research for the level of incompetence and apparent fraudulent intent that can be found in professional publications.
This is partly because of the involvement of the drug industry, but the U.S. government also played a role in setting a pattern of confused and perverse interpretration of serotonin physiology, by its policy of denigrating and incriminating LSD, a powerful serotonin (approximate) antagonist, by any means possible, for example claiming that it causes genetic damage and provokes homicidal or suicidal violence. The issue of genetic damage was already disproved in the 1960s, but this was never publicly acknowledged by the National Institutes of Mental Health or other government agency. The government's irresponsible actions helped to create the drug culture, in which health warnings about drugs were widely disregarded, because the government had been caught in blatant fraud. In more recent years, government warnings about tryptophan supplements have been widely dismissed, because the government has so often lied. Even when the public health agencies try to do something right, they fail, because they have done so much wrong.
In animal studies LSD, and other anti-serotonin agents, increase playfulness and accelerate learning, and cause behavioral impairment only at very high doses. While reserpine was used medically for several decades, and was eventually found to have harmful side effects, medical research in LSD was stopped before its actual side effects could be discovered.
The misrepresentatons about LSD, as a powerful antiserotonin agent, allowed a set of cultural stereotypes about serotonin to be established. Misconceptions about serotonin and melatonin and tryptophan, which are metabolically interrelated, have persisted, and it seems that the drug industry has exploited these mistakes to promote the ?new generation? of psychoactive drugs as activators of serotonin responses. If LSD makes people go berserk, as the government claimed, then a product to amplify the effects of serotonin should make people sane. "
I just wonder how much light (the waves you mentioned) it takes to actually increase cortisol an incredible amount. I figure it's less of a problem if someone's got a dinky little light bulb on than if they're sitting in an office until 3am with fluorescent lights blaring.
I realize it's a brief overview, but I was just expressing my complaints to the general things expressed..haha. I'm not going to flat out disagree with it until I read it (if I'm not too lazy; and since I have a lot of things that I have started reading, but, you know, haven't finished) – I just wonder in advance if they talk about these things – and if you can at all pull quotes maybe. It's a lot easier that way. aha
Chloe said:
What indigenous cultures used refined seed oils?
None – at least we haven't discovered any. Several however used fermented oil (but from an sea animal), like the Inuit.
And like, how high of an amount was it?
The WAPF claims that the PUFA content of native tribes was 4%. Several has asked for a verification of this reference and one has yet to be forthcoming. But it was low although the Inuit had a much higher consumption (10%) than most folk. They also had issues with hemorrhagic stroke, had problems with premature aging and weight gain (amongst the women) – all signs of excess PUFA consumption.
What percentage of the diet – intake of it versus other fats?
It seems a key component of healthy native diets is that most of the fat consumed – whether a high fat or low fat diet – was saturated. What were/are the percentages? In the case of the Kitavans saturated fat represents at least 80% of their fat consumption.
For high carb diets to work adequately over the long haul, it appears that saturated fat consumption needs to be very high. This is where people like John McDougall miss the boat, IMO.
I assume that because the basics of sugar and starch usually take over the diet is one major reason why people experience the entitled Saccharine Disease. Is it the addition of it, or, is it the lack of natural food plus the addition of it?
In the case of Price's groups, it was the replacement of good foods that was the problem. They didn't add bad foods on top of good foods, but rather replaced good foods with bad foods. That is one reason he calls them "the displacing foods of modern commerce."
What I have not yet heard is what exactly sugar and flour do to be the bad guy – to actually cause something harmful by consuming them. The only thing I can think of is the lack of nutrients – and depending on how they are refined – what else is added to them in the process. I'm not trying to back them up, cause I eat neither of them; however, I do want to understand this more, and I'd like to know if Cleaves has explained the science to it at all or if he just examined cultures.
It has been awhile so I am a little fuzzy on the science but IIRC these foods strip the body of various nutrients as the body has to deal with them. IIRC they strip the body of the actual nutrients that were stripped from the food during the refining process. It is as if the food is trying to return to its former state as it passes through the body.
So it could be the synergistic factors that were there in the first place and perhaps needed to properly digest the food, are brought back into play when the refined food is eaten, albeit in a inefficient and ultimately detrimental way. But don't quote me on this – I need to do some research.
Also, IIRC, PUFA's compete at a cellular level with other fats and nutrients. And that is one reason why in excess they can become a huge problem.
Michael
Nutrition and Physical Regeneration
Chloe: I saw you mention tallow. Do you make your own or can you buy it somewhere. I have some that I got from making bone broths, but I'm getting to the end of it. The bone broths are so labor intensive, I'm thinking of giving up on them for a while.
You can buy tallow from US Wellness Meats.
Michael
Nutrition and Physical Regeneration
Melissa said:
what is your favourite fat and why (general question to one and all)?
Ghee
Butter
Coconut milk and oil
Cocoa fat
Leaf lard
beef tallow
Macadamia oil
All of the above are extremely tasty, useful in cooking, and some are even medicinal in nature
Michael
Nutrition and Physical Regeneration
Can't believe I forgot olive oil. I don't use it much except for salads and dipping bread, but it is still quite tasty.
Michael
Nutrition and Physical Regeneration
Patrick said:
So now the definition of science is that we cannot eat a food unless we prove the impossible. That it is biochemically identical to another food (which since it is not that food, it cannot be). Anyone who reads my "what is panu?" entry sees clearly that I am interested in excluding food where we have evidence of harm. Definitions of "paleo" which just means old, after all, are all over the map. I have defined my terms carefully and until the terms paleolithic and nutrition are copyrighted, I will use them to communicate my ideas freely. I explicitly state my emphasis on metabolism over food re-enactment.
Paleolithic food re-enactment, where no one must eat of any food that cannot be definitively proven to be exactly the same as something extant before the arbitrary date of the birth of agriculture, is an impossible fantasy. Even if you could do it what is the point?
Why eliminate a food or practice without solid contemporary evidence of its harm? Why presume the only criterion of health is provenance and history?"
Now that is some good stuff!!!
You probably would cause a lot of cognitive dissonance for the dogmatic paleos among us with the above statement.
Michael
Nutrition and Physical Regeneration
Chloe said:
Though, I'm not really sure how people figure out exactly what people did that long ago; and all of what we assume happened could be wrong, of course.
I don't know if you realize what a profound statement you made above. When you start looking at this stuff closely, it is amazing how so much "food anthropology" is just sheer speculation, people guessing fully informed by their own bias and prejudices that are not readily transparent to the reader.
Michael
Nutrition and Physical Regeneration
Thanks Michael, I appreciate the information!
And that was Jenny's quote asking for the tallow, there– not mine. But, whatevv
Chloe said:
Thanks Michael, I appreciate the information!
You are welcome!
And that was Jenny's quote asking for the tallow, there– not mine. But, whatevv
Yes I know. I forget to put "Jennythenipper said" at the top. Sorry about that.
Michael
Nutrition and Physical Regeneration
How do you detox from PUFAs ASAP without causing any damage and letting them loose as fatty acids that damage your body (according to Ray Peat fasting is not a good idea right?)
Thanks for the reply regarding your favourite saturated fats; if you haven't answered yet please feel free to do so!
A great way to sneak in extra saturated fat (works with rendered fat, butter, cocoa butter and coconut oil) is to prepare no-bake cookies.
3 cups rolled oats or gluten free whole grain of choice
2 eggs
1/2 cup fat of choice
1/4 cup quality cocoa powder
1/3 cup nut butter of choice
*sweeten with a combination of brown sugar, molasses, honey (optional)
Combine all ingredients (melt fat first). Cooking the grains first I've found can be optional.I freeze it immediately, and because of all the fat, you can easily cut out a small portion straight from the freezer and let it thaw a bit before eating, goes great with tea and milk. I've found it to be a tasty way to get in calories on the go, or when I don't have time to prepare a proper meal. It keeps for ages and is quite easy to store and cut from the freezer.
Cocoa butter, rad. Any experiences here? (In regards to how it made you feel, and just in general how you used it.)
Also, sources? Decently priced but quality, preferably.
Chloe,
10pm-12am is the adrenal time.
thats why many people say be in bed by ten
xpipx
Anonymous,
"..although the lean tissues turn over their phospholipids very quickly, the unsaturated fatty acids drawn out of fat cells will keep them resynthesizing with the PUFA. The fat tissues take years to completely reflect a new diet. Sometimes a few doses of progesterone can help to break the pattern of stress, when the diet is good."
Unfortunately there's not many quick ways to health that I can find. I'm waiting to see what happens with cynomel, as well. Supposedly it takes 12 weeks for RT3 to "clear out" maybe depending on the dosage of T3. I'm hoping that makes a difference.
Michael wrote:
"What about coconut milk? IMO, it is far more versatile than coconut oil. You can add the milk to many things. I also have this great cocoa "candy" recipe that tastes like a chocolate sweet but is actually loaded with saturated fat."
Yes, I use it once a week for curries and I have put it into shakes, etc. for the boy. I really like it mixed with hot water as a warming bev now that I've given up tea. I'd love to find some baking with coconut milk recipes!
chlOe,
Here's a few snippets for you, specifically re: serotonin and melatonin:
"Sleep controls your appetite for carbohydrates, the consumption of which controls water retention (to change your blood pressure) and insulin production (which facilitates cholesterol production). No sleep, no control. And serotonin builds up. When you don't sleep and you eat carbohydrates all day, week, month, year, decade, you swim in chronically high serotonin because it never gets to turn into melatonin. That's where the depression comes in, and the actual heart disease."
"Serotonin (which rises in response to the stress of fear when you eat carbohydrates) controls vasoconstriction and platelet aggregation for a real reason in the natural world. You would never be in a panic state unless the thing that's panicked you might just bite your leg off of hit you with a club and cause you to bleed to death. The major chain of events in cardiovascular disease — high blood pressure, blood vessel constriction, increased clotting factors, high cholesterol, and lax calcium channels — mirrors all of the symptoms of prolonged pre-hibernation syndrome [she discusses these same symptoms in wild animals earlier]. All of these symptoms are reversible with adequate sleep, which raises melatonin and quells your appetite for carbohydrates.
You must stop eating sugar for more than half of the year to avoid heart disease because the higher-than-normal serotonin levels brought about by the insulin you're also swimming in not only create a depressive-paranoid state, they also kick in your sympathetic nervous system, which is the quantum primitive overdrive that connects your heart and brain. It controls the "fight or flight" response that can save you when you can't save yourself."
"We believe the heart "talks" to the brain through an electromagnetic field as well as electrochemically, through a feedback loop of something called ANP (atrial natriuretic peptide). ANP is the chemical communication between the heart and brain through the pineal gland, where melatonin is made. [She describes melatonin as the most powerful antioxidant in your body.] Patients with coronary artery disease produce less melatonin when they sleep than healthy controls…Corroborating evidence is also found in statistics measuring nighttime melatonin levels in the presence of low-frequency electromagnetic fields (EMF). Melatonin is uncharacteristically low in humans and animals exposed to EMF. Low melatonin is already known to cause cancer; it's also well known that long-term exposure to excessive EMF correlates with increased cardiovascular death, as well as brain tumors and leukemias in electric utility workers."
That said/quoted, I'd be interested to know where you read that melatonin is bad for mitochondria. The author mentions that mitochondria have no automatic repair mechanism, like nucleic DNA does. Free radicals will make breaks in your mitochondrial DNA, unless your body makes plenty of melatonin (which is why it is often sold as an antioxidant in health food stores).
Cheers!
Gina
"You must stop eating sugar for more than half of the year to avoid heart disease because the higher-than-normal serotonin levels brought about by the insulin you're also swimming in not only create a depressive-paranoid state, they also kick in your sympathetic nervous system, which is the quantum primitive overdrive that connects your heart and brain. It controls the "fight or flight" response that can save you when you can't save yourself."
Does this refer to SUGARS (like in fruits) or STARCH (like in rice, potatoes) or BOTH?
Many healthy tribes ate starch year long without being "paranoid-depressive". The Chinese don't fast from their rice 150 days per year – rice is a daily staple, no matter what the season.
Gina,
The main reason I disagree with this person is because she is pulling from the past that has no record and is saying that because of our history – sugar is bad for half of the year since it automatically causes insulin to do 'this', and melatonin does 'this' and is good because it's an antioxidant and prevents cancer. Does she provide references for the studies in which she believes melatonin is good? She may believe so just because it's an antioxidant that it automatically prevents free-radical damage. But let's not stop there, because estrogen is also claimed to be an antioxidant.
But I will go more into detail, because I read from Ray Peat that melatonin and serotonin are not the roots of cancer nor roots of good things. Here are some quotes.
" The use of bright light (which suppresses melatonin) to treat depression probably helps to inhibit the production of aldosterone, which is strongly associated with depression.
Both aldosterone and melatonin can contribute to the contraction of smooth muscle in blood vessels. Constriction of blood vessels in the kidneys helps to conserve water, which is adaptive if blood volume has been reduced because of a sodium deficiency. When blood vessels are inappropriately constricted, the blood pressure rises, while organs don't receive as much blood circulation as they need. This impaired circulation seems to be what causes the kidney damage associated with high blood pressure, which can eventually lead to heart failure and multiple organ failure. "
"Degeneration of the retina is the main cause of blindness in old people. Retinal injury is caused by ordinary light, when the eyes are sensitized by melatonin, prolactin, and polyunsaturated fats. Bright light isn't harmful to the retina, even when it is continuous, if the retina isn't sensitized.
Melatonin and prolactin are induced by stress, and darkness is a stress because it impairs mitochondrial energy production.
The polyunsaturated fats which accumulate in the brain and retina damage mitochondria.
..
The popular supplements melatonin, tryptophan, fish oils, St. John's wort, and the various omega -3 oils, all increase the risk of retinal light damage and macular degeneration. Serotonin uptake inhibiting antidepressants are suspected to be able to cause it."
From what I understand, melatonin is not created just because we sleep, but because of darkness — probably why the author is so intent to get rid of lights at night.
But her stance on sugar is something I definitely don't agree with, obviously, because, as one example, cultures in the tropics can and do eat fruit sugars year round.
"During the winter, when they (hampsters) were infertile, I found that their thymus glands practically disappeared. The mechanism seemed to include the increase of pineal gland activity (probably increasing melatonin synthesis) in the winter, under the intensified activity of the ‘sympathetic nervous system? (with increased activity of adrenalin and other catecholamines), and the melatonin was apparently a signal for suppressing fertility during the stressful winter. In some animals (Shvareva and Nevretdinova, 1989), estrogen is increased during hibernation, contributing to the reduction of body temperature."
It seems to be partially matching up with this author's points – but the conclusions are completely different. The conclusion I understand is that lowering estrogen and raising melatonin is simply the body's way of survival. I disagree that we are hardwired to have half a year to not eat sugar just because it was winter in some parts of the world.
…
…
If sugar is in fact good, melatonin depressing the want for it would be a bad thing or something that is negative.
"The absence of bright light would create a progesterone deficiency, and would leave estrogen and prolactin unopposed. Beginning in 1966, I started calling the syndrome ?winter sickness,? but over the next few years, because of the prominence of the premenstrual syndrome and fertility problems in these seasonally exacerbated disorders, I began calling it the pathology of estrogen dominance. In the endocrinology classes I taught at the National College of Naturopathic Medicine, I emphasized the importance of light, and suggested that medicine could be reorganized around these estrogen-related processes. If the sparrows of Times Square mated in the winter because of the bright lights, it seemed clear that bright artificial light would be helpful in regulating human hormones."
"In 1994 A.V. Sirotkin found that melatonin inhibits progesterone production but stimulates estrogen production, and it’s widely recognized that melatonin generally inhibits the thyroid hormones, creating an environment in which fertilization, implantation, and development of the embryo are not possible. This combination of high estrogen with low progesterone and low thyroid decreases the resistance of the organism, predisposing it to seizures and excitotoxic damage, and causing the thymus gland to atrophy."
It seems as if winter is not a good thing for us, naturally, why would the hormones produced during it be a great thing? It's obvious our body temperatures and skin aren't for winter. We don't shed in the summer or grow a coat. To say we're evolved to cope with winter – that our hormones automatically do these things because they're used to doing it thousands of years ago – I think is off. I don't know if that's what she is saying.
It's a survival mechanism that when you starve you attempt to slow your thyroid and store fat. The negatives are not mentioned for those supporting calorie restriction; nor compared to the fact that a fast metabolism is more compatible of human life.
Melatonin is not the only antioxidant in the body; nor has to be the only thing to be claimed to prevent free radicals (like estrogen sometimes is)
"Several experiments and observations have shown that cholesterol itself can protect against damaging oxidation of polyunsaturated fats, protecting DNA and other vital components of the cell. A consistent program to prevent the oxidation of cholesterol would have to include all of the vitamins and minerals that are involved in antioxidant defense, avoidance of nutrients that exacerbate the destructive oxidations, and an effort to normalize the hormones and other factors, such as carbon dioxide, that have protective effects against free radical oxidation. A low level of cholesterol might increase susceptibility to the oxidants.
The steroids in general, especially those produced in large amounts, progesterone and DHEA, are important parts of the antioxidant defenses"
The links in the first word are to the articles which you can read if you wish.
And of course,
"There is a lot of talk about melatonin’s function as an antioxidant, but, like so many other ?antioxidants,? melatonin can act as a pro-oxidant at physiologically relevant concentrations; some studies have found that it, like estrogen, increases the activity of the pro-oxidative free radical nitric oxide (which acts like melatonin on pigment cells, causing them to lighten). The promoters of estrogen are also making claims that estrogen is a protective antioxidant, though that isn’t true of physiological concentrations of estrogen, which can catalyze intense oxidations. The market culture seems to guide most research in these substances.
Almost any kind of stress increases the formation of melatonin."
wow, that was definitely not meant to all be a link. sorry bout that!
Hey,
I had a incident last night that some of you might have some insight on.
I bought one of those warm/hot cooked roasted full chickens. I put it in the oven with the black plastic bottom and clear plastic top at 225 degrees while I boiled and mashed a potatoe. Oops, the container had started to melt but it didnt look like the chicken got any plastic on it, so I went ahead and ate some at 7pm. I've been sick to my stomach and my throat hurts ever sense. I called poison control and they said it shouldnt be a big deal, but I'm wondering if I just fucked myself up. Hopefully, I'll start to feel better, but I'm wondering just how toxic and permanent this might be.
aaron
Aw…sorry Aaron, that's awful. For future reference, plastic shouldn't be put into an oven. Metal, plus glass and porcelain, are great for baking food. You can always check the bottom of a dish to see if it's microwave safe, as well.
I've recently had to take over cooking meals for my brother and father every day, and it's really such a trial and error thing figuring out what dishes work where….I accidentally put metal in the microwave once and you could SEE the electrical current running around on the inside. I'll never do that again, haha. Unfortunately I live in a highly flammable house…
Feel better!
Thanks Harper….I'm starting to feel a little better. I'm thinking one exposure probably will "pass over the bridge" in time. I only meant to keep it a little warm, boy oh silly! I guess I figured if it could go under the heat lamp……dumb…:)
ha, I blew up a microwave once with tin foil….:)
Short on time so I'll make a larger post later, but I wanted to suggest charcoal pills for aaruun. Charcoal is often used in poison control situations with high effectiveness (from what I understand).
Yeah, putting plastic in the oven isn't such a good idea :-). Sorry to hear about how you feel.
–Teran
chlOe:
From what I've read so far (I'm almost done with the book), I actually think the author would agree with a lot of what you've just posted. It's hard to get the point across with just a few quotes from one or two small sections of a book.
I think you may be focusing too much on the idea of extreme seasons/temperatures, when the main idea there is about change in quality/quantity of light and availability of sugars/carbs and how our bodies are designed to respond. Even in Borneo, there exists small changes in light and season, even if actual temperature changes little. She also didn't say that melatonin is the ONLY antioxidant in the body, just the most powerful.
And I'm certainly not implying that this book has all the answers, or even factors in all of the possibilities. But it does ask some damn good questions and, considering it was written 9 years ago, does a pretty good job at answering them with sound logic and scientific thinking. Again, some of the author's main points are (in very broad strokes):
-the onset of the epidemics of modern diseases coincided BOTH with the refining/processing of foods and the widespread use of the electric lightbulb.
-our hormones are affected by our behavior and what we eat, and the natural light-and-dark cycles of nature. Like a GPS, what we tell our hormones tells our bodies what time of day and year we are in and how to behave accordingly.
-when we *artificially* extend the light, day in and day out for decades, our hormones are negatively affected, and thus our hormones negatively affect our health. (Perhaps the most important point)
-when we change the environment, the environment changes us.
-we are part of the earth and intimately connected, and more similar than we think, to everything around us.
Getting back to my whole point in sharing this info to begin with, we really ought to include the matter of sleep and light in any health endeavor. If anything, I suggest reading this book for the fantastic way the author strings together everything from Gaia Theory to hormones to gut bacteria to sleep to string theory of quantum physics to worms to cancer to television to orangutans to music to hormones and on and on and on.
It is a wonderful addition to our repertoire of thinking not just about human health, but life. I know not everything in it is gospel and there are sure to be some inaccuracies, but it is humbling and makes for great discussion with others who have read it as well.
So I'm not going to pull any more quotes from it, because it doesn't do justice to the whole picture. It needs the context of the rest of the book.
I would like to use more coconut oil, but every time it gives me diarrhea. I know it's the coconut oil from repeated experiments.
Does anyone else have trouble w/ coconut oil?
Does anyone know why coconut oil could be causing this problem?
Thanks in advance for your responses.
On T.S. Wiley…
Her book, Lights Out, is considered to be a bit of a scientific abomination. It is a very interesting and entertaining read though. I've read it several times. I at least commend her for thinking hormonally about human health issues, and there is no question that she is right about two things:
1) Sleep is incredibly important for health overall metabolic health, and lack of sleep can ruin your health whether it feels good to be a light sleeper or not.
2) Looking directly into bright screens from computers and televisions late at night has an extra-powerful physiological and neurological effect. There is a reason why tv watchers have the highest rates of obesity, and it is certainly not from being sedentary as most authorities suggest. Cathode Ray technology, particularly the bright and ever-changing images on tv, cause a cascade of biochemical reactions – such as the release of opioids as the body enters a low alpha wave state.
Hope to do a post on that someday.
But of course the light bulb is not the primary culprit behind human degeneration. Price and many others showed us the power of poor nutrition. Lack of sleep, and perhaps even artificial light as Wiley suggests, are without question important factors in health and healing.
I use salt liberally. Celtic sea salt.
My daily diet varies tremendously. For example, I ate nothing but pork pot roast with potatoes, carrots, braised pork, and butter for nealy 4 days. I also had French cheeses with sprouted breads (Alvarado – not my favorite healthwise, but decent).
The primary staples of my own personal diet are potatoes, small portions of meats, butter, eggs, and tons of cheese. But like I said, it changes a lot and there is no monotony.
I've also been teaching Thai cooking classes lately and eating coconut milk like it's going out of sytle. I buy it in cases of 24 cans and go through it in a matter of weeks. My guess on a typical day's totals would be:
200-300 grams of fat, mostly saturated… 100 grams protein, mostly dairy protein, and 300 grams of carbs, mostly from unrefined starches. About 4,000 calories total.
My favorite fats are butter, cream, coconut milk, coconut oil, nuts/seeds, and olive oil in that order – mostly due to personal preference, but also in pursuit of eating saturated fats, which seem safer from a scientific standpoint.
Finally, the Hunza are known for eating huge amounts of apricot-seed oil. I suspect it's higher in monounsaturated, but it contains plenty of poly I imagine.
And Price called the Maori the healthiest humans he came across. They ate primarily seafood fats, high in poly's. The Eskimo were high on his list too of course. He came to no such conclusion that fat type was of primary importance, but that is too a sign of the era in which he did his research.
Hey,
Personally, I think some of the light debate is accurate. I've found that I definitely sleep the best when the room is as dark as possible, and I wake up the best to light. I visited some of my extended family in BC, Canada recently with my family and Heather, and had no troubles waking up before 5am when light was shining on me. That was staying at my grandparent's place. A couple weeks later, I was getting up with the light around 5:30am. Most people I know are very negatively affected by dark days, but personally, I notice very little effect. My bet is that darkness is underrated by most people for sleep, but that the body will adapt just fine to whatever, as long as there is enough good light in the day time (was just reading Ray Peat's article on eyes).
chlOe and Michael,
chloe said:
> What indigenous cultures used refined seed oils?
I'm sure none, but I do want to know about what cultures had PUFAs in their diet through nuts and fish, and how much. Not sure about how bad PUFAs in a whole food are compared to alone though.
Half Navajo:
I think chlOe's comment about alcohol and PUFAs is interesting and relevant. Personally, I've noticed myself less and less attracted to chicken skin, but I'm not sure if that is mental or physiological.
Matt:
Nice to see you commenting again. Have you noticed fruit alone making your teeth ache? What kind of fruit?
I agree that the evil in sugar is likely both the lack of nutrients and some drug like effect; personally, I think it's more so the drug effect. As quoted before, cultured with 90% of their calories from white rice had no dental decay, whereas many higher nutrient diets with sugar had dental problems (or maybe it was somehow from PUFAs? Not sure). Perhaps something important (more than just a nutrient) is stripped from sugar in refining that makes it so hazardous. I definitely don't think there is anything wrong with natural sugars though, provided a health body. I second you on glucose, but I really don't know.
Everyone:
Anyone know about if traditional societies actually used cod liver oil, and if so, how it was made? Perhaps they only used fermented cod liver oil which I believe is not heated, and might be safer to take. I also recall the WAPF quoting Price on cod liver oil being most effective with butter oil; perhaps this was due to a protective effect from butter with the cod liver oil?
Anonymous on meal requests:
I thought your usage of pounds and gallons of milk was funny :-).
I'm pretty sure that the general consensus here is that salt is good, although it can induce negative effects in people who are not completely healthy. However, this seems to be more due to effects like when the body would become water retained but can't because of a lack of salt, something is really off. Salt seems to be good for the thyroid and hormones, from my understanding. I haven't noticed any personal difference with or without it though, but I'm, sure it has made one.
Those example meal plans are scary; 6 pounds of potatoes? I'd be lucky to get down 1 pound. 2 pounds of butter is 8 sticks; the most I think I could ever do is a pound a day, but I'd be hesitant to do that. I think the most I've done is 2 sticks in a day.
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Mark:
The ideal diet is different for everyone, at least until they are healthy. I think the only advice you could give to almost everyone without any side effects is to take coconut oil and replace vegetable oils with butter, while dropping refined sugars. Most temporary side effects from adding in more salt or what not are worth it, but in some cases people simply have to have a different kind of diet; I was just referring to what I'm guessing would be "purely" beneficial, possibly.
I'll briefly mention a plan I have to (one day) make the next Wikipedia on steroids that could automatically make correlations and help formulate a potentially ideal diet under certain circumstances. Don't get me into explaining that though.
Anonymous on coconut oil,
I've never had that effect personally, even with lots of coconut oil. It could (possibly) be a detox reaction or some digestive issue, but coconut oil is *very* easy to digest. What brand and type are you using? I've had some that are absolutely disgusting. I think the worst one I've had is the NOW brand's coconut oil. Spectrum unrefined is slightly questionable to me, so if I get Spectrum I go with refined. Nutiva seems to be the best brand I've found and I don't think I've had any issues with it. Then again, it's really hard for me to get diarrhea. I might actually not mind some diarrhea to flush out my colon a little bit; I haven't been having enough bowel movements lately.
Mostly to chlOe,
I've been digging into Ray Peat some lately. He really does seem to have some good points. I think he can get a little on the narrow side with the occasional issue, but he does seem (in some ways, unfortunately) quite correct. I tried the carrot salad thing with no immediately noticeable effects, although I did like the taste. He has an amazing understanding of hormones, for sure. His real recommendations are definitely scattered. It's probably a good thing for the most part, but his articles make you think for yourself with not much conclusion in them. I would like to see some of his advice summed up more though.
About PUFAs, I know for sure that they are bad when heated and not protected (if that is possible) by saturated fats (like coconut oil or butter). I think canola, soybean, and most vegetable oils are bad to begin with though. I'm not very certain beyond this, but based on what I've read, I'm shifting to that PUFAs are just generally bad and are certainly not "essential" fatty acids. I do wonder why some people report beneficial effects when taking krill, fish, or cod liver oil though. Perhaps it's just the vitamins?
On that understanding alone, which is mostly WAPF-compliant, even (I mean the first half, not the part about PUFAs being unessential and just generally bad), it does make me wonder about cooking fatty fish and chicken. I think the WAPF says that the PUFAs fatty fish are protected with how the fat is not taken out and is inside the fish, but I really don't know. I've found myself less and less interested in chicken skin and fat, but I'm not totally sure why that is. I think I'll stick to beef fat, lamb fat, coconut oil, butter, and some olive oil, for now until I have more understanding. I do think that palm oil would be fine though. According to nutritiondata.com, olive oil is 10.5% PUFA, 73% MUFA, and 13.8% SFA, while palm oil is 9.3% PUFA, 37% MUFA, and 49.3% SFA. Palm kernel oil is supposed to be quite a bit more saturated though (close to coconut, I believe). I did find Matt's FUMP diet interesting with how he found chicken and pork repulsive after a while. I wonder how coconut fed chicken would be, but I'm sure Matt was on to something with that.
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I think you are right about fruit. I'll try to incorporate more of it in my diet. Ray Peat's article on vegetables seemed interesting; I agree with him that vegetables have more of an interest in protecting themselves than being eaten, than fruits do. I'm sure that many vegetables are fine though. I haven't yet cut out vegetables enough to see if it solves my digestive issues, but I think mine are greater than just that. Do you have the study that Ray Peat references to for the fish oil dog experiment? I'm a little curious on that. A lot of fish oil is refined of some of the vitamins (usually A), and the WAPF suggests that A, D, and K are needed in proper, balanced quantities, else excess can develop.
It sounds like you eat a good bit. I'm glad that Heather usually has a strong enough appetite for my meals. I've seen some females who eat so little at all; it's scary.
I agree with you about sugar often being wrongly blamed for blood sugar rises. It is just like the "fat makes you fat", and "cholesterol raises your cholesterol" arguments. And I also agree that there could be more to HFCS than fructose, but personally I think the effect is induced by the isolated fructose alone, but I really don't know.
Do you know if Ray Peat advises a certain fat % of caloric intake and why? I couldn't find that out. Also wondering what he thinks about rice, but I seem to tolerate it just fine.
Thanks, though you don't have to answer all (or any) of these. I'm getting a bit curious on Ray Peat now. I think I've been missing some of the picture without as much of the hormone, PUFAs, and understanding on sugars.
Back to everyone:
I know this is not optimum, but the past two days I've found some digestive relief by mild food combining. I'll have usually two meals of high-carb, high-fat, with one high-protein, high-fat meal. I'm not certain this is helping with my bloating, but my initial observations say it is. Maybe I should try a FUMP diet, or a carb-only diet for a week or something. My in-ear temperatures have been usually about 98.1F in the morning. My water retention usually isn't too bad I think, but my bowels are slow. My apparent energy and metabolism seems to be good, though not its best. I was fine with a thin shirt and pants last night in 53F weather, while Heather was freezing. My hands are often on the cool side lately, but I don't feel cold. I've been settling in around 167lbs and am thinking that I've truly gained fat rather than have a full colon or water weight :-(. Perhaps I should get on the low carb bandwagon for a little while, I don't know. I've been having well sized meals for a while now. Perhaps my RT3 is too high, but I'm not sure why my body is picking up speed as much as it could. Maybe my digestion is too far off to absorb calories and nutrients properly, but I don't think that's it. Maybe I need some thyroid for the last mile? Dunno. Either way, I feel so much better than I did a few months ago :-). Coconut oil and eating adequately was the biggest thing for feeling better and more energized, but my digestion is still off, although it is getting better. I don't think I have any issues with small quantities of gluten and I've been having a good bit of white rice the past couple days. I think I might have a few problems with potatoes in high quantity, but I'm not sure.
Sorry for the monster post (which is probably now multiple posts when I have to break it up). I hope it helps some of you and gives the rest of you some food for thought.
Thanks,
Teran
Anonymous with coconut oil problems:
If your body is not used to eating fat in decent amounts (or any amount for that matter) then you will very likely get diarrhea for eating even a small amount. Two women in their fifties I introduced to coconut oil had the problem at the beginning. You will have to start very slow, maybe 1/2 – 1 tsp in the middle of a meal, and work up.
Teran on why some people get benefits from eating the Omega 3 oils:
Ive never taken more than Chem I, so no biochem or anything like that so I dont know how correct this is. But, back when I used to read the Scientific Debate Forum, he seemed to have a pretty good case as to why that is. He said that the omega 3's, at least temporarily, stop the metabolization of the omega 6 fatty acids (specifically arachadonic acid) by cells which initially will decrease the inflammation caused by the arachadonic acid. It will cause far more damage later on, however, by supplementing omega 3s to counteract omega 6s.
Again, I have no idea how accurate this is
For sugars, the only effect I get that might be called negative is that if I eat something fairly high in sugar before I go to sleep, I am usually extremely hungry the next morning about 20 minutes after I wake up. Maybe because it speeds up the metabolism and I hadnt eaten enough non sugar food for it to digest?
-Drew
Matt,
Thanks for commenting on the light topic and T.S. Wiley's book. I couldn't agree more, and you seem to have summed up what I've been trying to say this whole time. No, the book is not perfect or always scientifically accurate, but there are many gems of great information and advice, as well as thought-provoking ideas that are not found together in most other books about health nowadays.
But the issue of sleep and light exposure remains solidly pertinent to our everyday health concerns.
Sorry, I'm being redundant now.
Gina
Anonymous,
have you tried refined coconut oil as well?
Teran,
yeah, I do think that it's the vitamins in the oils, and perhaps what Drew brings up as well, for why people may think those things are good.
About unsaturated fats, honestly it's not just the fact that hardly any tribes eat polyunsaturated fats in large amounts, but a lot of facts brought against them that they just aren't meant for us in large amounts or as staples completely.
Warm water fish are pretty lean and lack nearly as much omegas and polyunsaturated fats as cold water fish that the inuit fermented and ate. Supposedly the Inuit aged fast and had other problems, though. Not sure what the root of that is, but just because they had little cavities doesn't make them the healthiest of people. I know that's sort of what Price had based part of his work on. They also must have had very functional thyroids in order to consume so much fat – as well, they didn't just eat polyunsaturated fats. I assume their diet was largely saturated, and this should be factored in. If the polyunsaturated fats aren't the staple, it's hard to assume they don't have a big effect on health; like refined sugar and flour and other things often were the staple in people's lives in comparison to this situation.
That'd be interesting to feed chickens coconut. It reminds me of the people that Price talked about who fed coconut crabs coconut until they were almost "bursting out of their shells".
The farm I get raw milk from has milk-fed pork..I have yet to try that. WHy the hell are all the Amish farms in Pennsylvania..that's so unfair.
Most of the questions you asked me about Ray Peat you could probably just as him yourself (he replies pretty quickly – modest!). On fat percentages, I'm pretty sure he doesn't think it's as important as sugar and protein. But he's not one to follow strict rules and guidelines on it, nor suggest a ratio.
I think that your bloating problems, again, the very cause, is being hypothyroid. Food combining isn't something to really look towards for the simple fact that it can make your situation worse in the long run. Leaving out carbs will only raise your cortisol and other stress hormones and inhibit your thyroid from being productive even more.
The things that really really helped me the most with the whole bloating situation was cutting out all vegetables for right now (except the raw carrot thing), avoiding starchy fruits, and that's pretty much it. I think those certain fibers are what really aggravate most people, to be honest. You should at least try it?
Drew,
It's interesting that you bring up eating sugars before bed; because whenever I have orange juice (like, with salt) before bed I am able to fall asleep a lot easier. I'm guessing it may have to do with the fact that the sugar and the salt can bring down cortisol levels and allow the body to rest.
I'm not sure what would cause your hunger in the morning (and if it's good or bad) – but do you know if your temperature lowers or raises from the time you wake up to after you eat in the morning? Like, the nights you eat sugars.
Matt,
Wowwww, just heard your podcast and I share your pain. It's so ridiculous that these people have degrees. But it's so not hard to get degrees in MDs and PhDs and not know shit about real health. Like "dr." Graham's degree in..chiropracty. Haha backs and..fruit. Yeah. Not to mention how corrupt things get with colleges, government, and certain corporations supporting different studies as to raise their own profit.
I'm glad you don't have a ridiculous degree, because it makes you one of me- a person just readin some shit and trying to figure it out from more than one perspective, including experience (which is important that a lot of those phd fellows don't seem to use much of for themselves; who also fail to ignore past experience). sheeeeeeeeeesh
There are good people with degrees – but the public should not be persuaded to think that degree holders have more power just because they have a degree.
Matt you favorite fat is nuts/seeds? Those are PUFAs BIG time?
I think Matt is lying so that the costs of his REAL foods don't increase. I think Matt is following a Raw Paleolithic diet (rawpaleodiet.com) and he only says he eats other foods like pork, cheese and nut/seed butters, so everyone flocks there and buys those (increasing price), leaving grassfed beef conveniently priced cheaper for Matty to buy.
Whew….I'm feeling much better from the plastic chicken incident.
Thanks for the well wishes and suggestions Teran and Harper.
On Omega 3's, if you do find any of the touted research about them being excellent for you intriguing but are also skeptical(and concerned) from the anti-Omega 3 stuff, consider Krill Oil. You take *way* less of it, its more stable and better absorbed(well claimed to be). Its also more expensive. :) I've taken fish oil before and it did help with inflammation(very noticable decrease in my joint/tendon pain) but other than that I noticed nothing in particular(either bad or good).
Matt,
Why so much dairy? I've read dairy is a common allergen and I'm wondering how good it is to have it as one's *primary* source of protien. I do eat some dairy myself. I know some authors are against cheese and mushrooms for some reason(I think they claim they are pro-fungal or something like that).
One of my Drs. is pushing a "liver cleanse" and after the rubber chicken incident I've decided to do it. Yuck, eating like that will not be fun. Though I read a improperly functioning liver can cause testosterone issues and since I have(at 33) the testosterone levels of a 65-79 year old, well any help is welcome.
Aaruun,
I wanted to bring up prostaglandins- which, their synthesis is suppressed by, specifically, fish oil (not any old omega-3 supplement; which means it is definitely not omega-3 relieving the inflammation). Prostaglandins create free radicals and lipid peroxidation, which are both involved with inflammation. Temporarily blocking the synthesis of prostaglandins with fish oil does not solve the case.
Aspirin is the common medication used to alleviate inflammation, which, it does the same thing – inhibits prostaglandin production.
Just though I might throw that in in case you were wondering why you had experienced this certain relief. It seemed to match up.
I think that dairy is largely mistaken as being commonly known as an allergen; perhaps what goes into the dairy or the cow can cause people's reactions that are blamed on the dairy itself – or maybe even the person is the culprit, rather than the food. There are cultures who consume it as a staple who are completely healthy. The Masai are one big example; and the others I can think of that reminded me of the way Matt eats are the indigenous Swedes. But there are probably a lot more cultures, like Pastoralists, who live and have lived off of dairy for the simple fact that it's completely economical in comparison to meat and slaughter.
And I believe Matt had brought up a good point before– the fact that allergies can't be blamed for the object. If you're allergic to a dog..is it because the dog is standing near you (and it's just not meant to be); or, is it just you? Other people can smell a dog and not sneeze. I guess their ancestors were just, hah you know, around dogs more way back when. Oh well! (:
But really, it's like the case of the peanut allergies increasing more and more each year. Most doctors trying to "cure" it see it as an epidemic (within people) rather than the peanut itself creating the problem.
Drew,
That seems possible about why people may feel benefits from omega 3's. Another reason why many are calling for 1:1 omega 3, omega 6 balances, possibly.
I'm wondering if I've done something to my body to seemingly never have any issues with fats. I never was a high saturated fat eater until getting off of my raw foods diet. My raw foods diet had lots of PUFAs and MUFAs from seeds and nuts, but nothing like coconut oil or butter. Maybe the fact that I can tolerate a stick of butter more indicates that something is wrong in another way that I don't have noticeable side effects? Not sure.
chlOe,
It's a shame fish oils are one of the best supplements of vitamin A and D, but I agree with you that most benefits people feel are probably because of the anti-prostaglandins effect, what Drew mentioned, and the vitamins. Red palm oil might be a reasonable replacement for vitamin A, but it comes as beta carotene rather than renitol.
It takes more than a nutritional deficiency to cause tooth problems, as I've read quoted about Indian groups having 90% of their calories from white rice with good teeth, so that definitely doesn't mean the Inuit were super healthy. I'm sure ketosis and the sheer cold played on their health a lot though; I doubt it was all PUFAs. Excess and absence of light may have done something, too.
I read about chickens being fed coconut from Cocofeed. The chickens they sell are *really* expensive though :-(.
I haven't had any vegetables for a couple days now. I think I've had less bloating, but that it's more from food combining. I agree that food combining isn't optimal at all. I wanted to see if I could have some bloating relief from it though. I think my main issue now is constipation :-/. I'll keep up avoiding vegetables though, for now. Do you think vegetables overrated in general, or can adequate vitamins be obtained from fruit and meats?
I agree, it probably all just goes back to hypothyroidism. I'm confused when I do well in some ways, but not others. I'll have to contact Ray Peat sometime, thanks.
I also agree that most allergens are more the fault of the body, and not the allergens themselves. Some allergens are probably just generally bad, but almost all food allergens are meant to be tolerated by the body, I'm sure.
Anonymous on Matt's favorite fats,
I think you misread the order of his fat intake. But maybe he's secretly trying to get people to flock to dairy so his nut prices drop :-).
aaruun,
Glad you are feeling better. I was just reminded of having kabobs in Russia cooked over the same firepit that they burned trash in. The fire was, appropriately, started with diesel. I don't remember getting sick though. A liver cleanse sounds scary. I did a gall bladder cleanse once…
Thanks,
Teran
Great discush on Omega 3's. It's definitely a case like exercising to avoid the perils of refined sugar. Sure, exercise will help stave off some of the problems of sugar intake, but you could save yourself a lot of trouble, physical damage, and adrenal burnout by just avoiding the sugar in the first place.
I too, am a firm believer that it's much more effective to avoid solvent-extracted plant oils than to try to use fish oil as an antidote against AA-converting fatty acids.
Anonymous on nuts being my favorite fats. I appreciate your wisdom and well-spoken writing. Have you considered trying to get published for your work? It's true. All I care about is getting the price of leathery, stank, grassfed beef down so that I can eat it instead of the pork roast that I had for dinner that cost me a whopping $3.72 and was more tender than Charles Washington's backside while still on carbs.
Teran,
Food-combining is a great short-term tool to get some relief as was discussed in 180 Digestion. Just don't use it as a crutch. Chloe's summary was right on. Surprise, suprise.
Chloe,
Thanks for your support of my non-credentialed ass. I hope to continue to inspire people with my willingness to think things through, explore, and question instead of regurgitate information based on long-since-disproven caca. Unfortunately there are some really good minds out there that get swept up by Harvard and made into circus pets who will do anything to please their masters. The answer that gets the grades and the pats on the back aren't always correct – especially when the cirriculum, the studies, the textbooks, and the campus itself is all funded by people with big bucks. That spells big agriculture, food industry, and pharmaceuticals every time.
I choose dairy for several reasons. The first is that dairy foods are typically more nutritious than regular muscle meats. Secondly, my digestion of dairy is always easier. Third, dairy foods are high in saturated fat and overall fat in comparison to protein. Dairy foods contain more vitamin A and D than most muscle meats. Dairy foods also require less preparation, are good on the go, have a longer shelf life, and on and on and on.
Allergies to dairy foods are new, and not caused by the dairy foods, but the health of the people consuming them as Chloe pointed out. It's other substances that cause dairy foods to be problematic, but there's no need to wage war on them. There's especially no need to get paranoid about them if you have virtually no outwardly signs of poorly tolerating them.
Chloe said:
As for starch, I don't think Ray Peat is as simple as to just say eating starch will make you fat. In fact he says,
"There isn't anything wrong with a high carbohydrate diet, and even a high starch diet isn't necessarily incompatible with good health, but when better foods are available they should be used instead of starches. For example, fruits have
many advantages over grains, besides the difference between sugar and starch. Bread and pasta consumption are strongly associated with the occurrence of diabetes, fruit consumption has a strong inverse association"
I believe people like to assume he is strict and avoidant and extreme, when he often seems to just thinks of things as being better than other things, and better to use as a main part of the diet, as in fruit versus grains. He's not saying "grains are poison stay the hell away from them!".
Peat is comparing fruits with grains. But there were many cultures who ate their starches as tubers and not as grains and who did/do quite well. Do you know if he makes a comparison between fruit and starchy tubers?
Slaying the Low Carb Dragon
I know that cultures ate starches without problems, but also had ways of preparing them so that they had all vitamins intact, and that they were also not refined. Since someone brought up African tribes refining their grains – did they also have an otherwise varied diet?
They had a nutrient dense diet but the point of refining was to make the nutrients more available and for removing problematic substances that could potentially menace health.
Their refined grains weren't a junk food that was overcome by the nutrient density of the rest of the diet, but rather served as a way to release the nutrients in a form the body could handle.
As the saying goes you are not what you eat, but what you assimilate.
I look at traditional refining as a technique for liberating the nutritional qualities of grains that is on an equal par with sprouting, fermenting, and soaking in terms of not being detrimental in an overall good diet. You lose some nutrients that you might not otherwise, but traditional refining doesn't necessarily turn a food into junk.
There's just such a fine line between what is and isn't considered refining. Is peeling a cucumber refining? How about peeling a potato?
Comparing fruits and grains isn't much of a comparison. Pasta and grains are typically eaten in refined, white-flour based form. T.L. Cleave shows handily that eating white flour-based foods is associated with diabetes, but unrefined whole meal forms are not associated with diabetes – whether in the form of fruit, beans, corn, wheat, or otherwise.
And not all forms of grains were fermented or sprouted mind you, as the people of the Himalayan region that subsisted off of wheat merely ground wheat into a flour and fried it up into chappattis right away – without any prior preparation.
Oh yeah, and on the sleep thing…
Eating anything, but particularly carbohydrates late at night raises serotonin levels high enough that it can be converted to melatonin. Craving sweets or alcohol late at night is a strong sign that receptor sites for serotonin are shut down. Likewise, it's very difficult to fall asleep on an empty stomach.
When eating sweets, drinking alcohol, or eating much more than normal late at night – the result is often massive hunger early in the morning. This is due to excessively low glucose levels – aka, low blood sugar. Starch does not do this, which is why, in many circumstances, it is preferable over simple sugars for the immediate treatment of hypoglycemia (note I'm not saying it's a cure to the problem, which is a reduced metabolism and insulin resistance).
But studies have found that anti-serotonin drugs IMPROVE sleep. Serotonin also supposedly negatively impacts cortisol levels (raises them), which would prevent sleep more.
I personally don't crave sweets at night, nor in general anymore. I just drank orange juice and salt once as a tester to see what happened..and it seems to work fairly well at allowing me to fall asleep more easily and continues to. The two, salt and glucose, are what reduce cortisol – opposite of serotonin. I myself don't experience huge hunger in the morning at all, so I'm guessing my experience is different from Drew's because of a difference in amount of stress hormones – which is why I was curious on what his temperatures were in the morning right when he woke up versus after he ate – if they dipped at all after eating breakfast or went higher.
If cortisol or adrenaline was higher for him in the morning, then it would make sense with what you're saying about low blood glucose since it is largely effected by the two stress hormones, and in turn, of course, it effects the appetite.
Serotonin is no longer serotonin after a certain hour though. It gets converted to melatonin according to your Circadian rhythms. If anti-serotonin drugs improve sleep, they do so through a different mechanism. Natural supplements such as L-Tryptophan and 5-HTP have long been thought to improve sleep based on the principle that Tryptophan is converted into serotonin.
If serotonin was blocked by an anti-serotonin drug it would not be turned into melatonin. So I'm not getting what your point is? What kind of mechanism would anti-serotonin drugs create if not simply blocking serotonin to improve sleep?
Those supplements may only "help" one sleep if it just knocks people out. They aren't actually sleeping, they're just not awake – like hibernation. It's simply an anesthesia. I'm pretty sure more sleeping pills and antidepressants simply increase serotonin in a different way than "natural supplements". They just have more side effects and different effects on the brain.
Yes, the point of L-tryptophan would be to increase serotonin and therefore melatonin.
Serotonin, which is very high in hypothyroidism. Melatonin is the derivative, and without serotonin..you have no melatonin.
But there's other factors here; the fact that high mitochondrial respiration and good body heat equal good sleep. The body has enough "energy" so to speak, to sleep. Serotonin has the opposite effect on heat production and mitochondrial respiration, which is why it would be commonly high in hypothyroid folk.
On why sugar is bad:
To elaborate just a little on a prior poster's explanation, based on my memory of WAPF writings –
Refined sugar has been stripped of all the nutrients (don't remember which but I think B vitamins are included) that normally come with the sweet food (beets, cane, oranges, etc). In the whole food form the body can use the food to build the body. In the refined form, to process the sugar, the body must draw upon its own stores of those nutrients. Thus refined sugar actually leaves you more nutrient deficient after eating it.
On cod liver oil and saturated fat: I read in Nina Plank's Real Food for Mother and Baby that eating saturated fat (for ex high vitamin butter oil) with your CLO protects against the oxidation and "extends" the Omega 3s somehow. WAPF is clear that CLO should be taken with butter or butter oil to be effective, and that is (part of) what Weston Price gave the children he cured of caries.
On obesity and overeating:
I read somewhere that when we eat highly refined foods, the body keeps asking for more food because it "senses" that few to no nutrients have entered the system.
On light and hormones:
Light at night can disrupt ovulation. Something called "Lunaception" which you can google, has been shown to induce ovulation in anovulatory women via controlling light levels at night. You must sleep in TOTAL darkness except for a few nights per month and then your menstrual cycle follows along. Never tried it but seemed interesting.
Amanda, who hopes to sleep at 10 tonight!
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