The other day a fried of mine passed along a CBS evening news report on Polish doctor Jan Kwasniewski. Please click here to watch. Many people have mentioned Kwasniewski’s work to me, as we apparently have come to near identical conclusions on what is more or less the optimal diet for healing the majority of illnesses facing humanity. Kwasniewski, like myself, is a strong proponent for a diet that contains adequate but not excessive protein, few carbohydrates, and a proportionally large quantity of fat ? ideally from animal sources.
The news, in any form, is not something I typically follow for good reason. The greatest reason is that my quality of life is greatly diminished by watching the news. It takes my focus away from my tangible reality and shifts it to something peripheral and out of my control. It’s a huge distraction and pollutes my mind, steering it away from what is important to me.
The second reason is that the news, particularly in television format which induces a low-alpha wave state in the brain, lowers my capacity for intelligent thought.
When a news report is constructed, it virtually cannot be created without some kind of conditioned bias. Of course we all know that the media is heavily influenced (okay neutered), by their sponsors and the financial and political interests of the media outlet’s owners. That’s just common sense. But even if this weren’t a factor, conditioning still has dominion over the way news is presented, and how news is presented is everything.
I’m not the kind of guy who is informed about many things. Newscasters, when they present information, are much better informed on most subjects than I am. This is dangerous, because I cannot question, refute, or think critically about the information. This is what cripples intelligent thought, because you naturally proscribe, at least in part, to the information that’s being conveyed to you and how it’s being transmitted.
When it comes to nutrition and health; however, it’s a very different story. There isn’t a newscaster on the face of the planet that is better informed about the many facets of the diet-disease connection than I am. Perhaps the reason I am so skeptical and downright fearful of watching the news, is that when it comes to news reports on subjects that I’m well-informed about, the errors in presentation, flaws in logic, and subtle biases in alignment with mainstream opinion completely control the report itself.
A perfect case in point?
Jan Kwasniewski recommends eating according to the following guidelines:
1) Eat 1 gram of protein for every kilogram of your ideal body weight. This is pretty standard advice. To calculate this, divide what would be your healthy weight in pounds by 2.2. My ideal weight is about 170, which means my needs, based on this calculation, are to obtain about 77 grams of protein per day. The average woman needs about 55 grams of protein.
2) For every gram of protein, Kwasniewski recommends eating 2.5-3.5 grams of fat. Based on this calculation, I need to eat between 192 and 270 grams of fat per day. If you need 55 grams of protein per day, you need less fat: 137-192 grams of fat per day.
3) For every gram of protein, Kwasniewski recommends .8 grams of carbohydrate. Thus, I would need 62 grams of carbs per day. The average woman would need 44 grams.
Thus, a total for me, an averaged-sized male, would be 77 grams of protein, 231 grams of fat (mid-range), and 62 grams of carbohydrates. Daily calorie total is 2635, a low-calorie diet by any calculation. Split between 3 meals, I would need 878 calories, and a total of 77 grams of fat per meal.
Now, let’s examine our news report.
The news report says that Kwasniewski recommends eating 250 grams of fat per day. Fair enough, although as we’ve seen ? if you are a petite woman, you might need only half that much, so right there we have a major oversimplification.
Then it goes on to say: in order to get that much fat, you ?have to start early. It then lays out a supposedly-typical breakfast that gets you ?one-third? of your daily fat total. That breakfast consists of?
1) A 4-egg omelet cooked in lard (30 grams of fat by modest estimates)
2) 4 strips of bacon (depends on how well you cook it, but let’s say at least 40 grams of fat)
3) Sausage ? they don’t say how much, but the photo suggests a lot (call it another 30 grams of fat)
4) 2 slices of toast slathered in butter (quantities not given but photo and emphasis on lots of butter suggest 2T per slice, or 48 grams of fat)
5) Finished by drinking a cup of heavy whipping cream (96 grams of fat)
This breakfast, by my estimates, contains 244 grams of fat. Oh yes, and the bread is supposedly 43% fat, pushing our total to over 250 grams. Thus, according to the news report, to get one-third of your 250 grams of fat, you must ‘start early? by eating a breakfast containing 250 grams of fat and over 2500 calories.
Eating in the manner the news report recommends, a typical person (which they refer to as ?you?), would eat 750 grams of fat and 7500 calories per day. This is what Kwasniewski would recommend for someone with 250 kg of lean body mass, weighing, if lean, 550 pounds. It is evident that CBS’s intended audience is not humans, but grizzly bears, baby elephants, and/or hogzillas.
The news report concludes by saying that you may just be able to become fit on fat ?if you can stomach it. Of course, any intelligent person would look at such an idea as ludicrous, and I would agree. It would be tough to get lean eating 7,500 calories per day and 750 grams of fat. And I’m not sure many could ‘stomach it? day after day after day without running into a massive anorectic (lack of hunger) effect anyway. The end result, is that Kwasniewski becomes the punchline of another dumb Polack joke, and Americans are left thinking that the best thing they have available to them is The South Beach Diet, a mediocre, somewhat unhealthy starvation diet that few people stick to long term.
That’s why I don’t watch the news. Almost every health-oriented news report that I’ve seen is that pitifully false, manipulated, biased, and absurd. I have no reason to believe the same doesn’t hold true for topics that I’m less educated about. I’d much rather be uneducated, than de-educated. Not knowing that 2+2 = 4 is a far better place to be than thinking 2+2 = 37. We were far better off not knowing anything about nutrition and health than we are now ? thinking that saturated fat is unhealthy, that protein powder with splenda is a health food, that fiber is a beneficial substance for treating digestive disorders, and that kids need to eat lots of fruits, vegetables, and whole grain cereals with skim milk.
In conclusion, if you want to learn about something, go do it. Seek the information out yourself instead of gobbling up what someone else wants you to think. If you want to be informed in such a way that renders you less educated than you were before you started watching the program, believing something that borders on mental retardation by the time the program is finished, then watch CBS.
For resources on what Kwasniewski really recommends ? that is the ideal weight loss and health improvement program which Kwasniewski has been awarded for in his home country of Poland, I highly recommend the following resources?
Kwasniewski
Natural Health and Weight Loss by Barry Groves
The Schwarzbein Principle by Diana Schwarzbein
And of course, 180 Degree Metabolism: The Smart Strategy for Fat Loss, by yours truly
Great post…Makes me wish I was in a different country without all of the media hype bullshit that Regis and Kelly love to share every week day morning before everyone goes to their slave house. Seriously, it’s the only thing on in the mornings and I want to just hop the next plane to Southern France.
Oh that makes me seem negative. I like to call it…realistic. Yeeeah.
I went to your website! It looks great. I definitely joined as a member quickly wit my hard earned money. I can’t wait till this community you are forming comes together. Then it will actually be a healthy community and not just a bunch of overweight people or emaciated people saying they’re right, and anyone who questions is wrong or rejected.
So you still working on the membership page? I couldn’t log in. ..no rush…haha
-CHLOE
C-sista,
Thanks for the kudos on the website, and yes, the membership dilly, how it functions, etc. are still being renovated. Hang in there. You should be able to get the eZine within the next week, discounts on eBooks, etc.
We really live in a world now, not just a country. I don’t think Southern France would be as much of an escape as you think. Commerce is a global thing. Yeah, news is dumb, Regis and Kelly are lame, but on the bright side it makes folks like us look exceedingly intelligent and cool! Ha!
Haha, I was thinking that. But hey, it would be a little better in France; I could probably get some raw dairy easier there! Enjoy some healthcare, maybe. Who knows.
Yeah we’re cool, cause we want to live brother, not just live, but lIve. Like, happily.
DANG can’t wait till 180 is in full swing.
-chlOe
Hey Matt,
Nice post and great looking math! So how are you feeling now that you have added carbs back? Any noticeable differences? TIA!!! Hope you are doing well and having a great New Year!
I recently came across your blog and have been reading along. I thought I would leave my first comment. I don’t know what to say except that I have enjoyed reading. Nice blog. I will keep visiting this blog very often.
Deborah
Term Life Insurance
Your 3 book links at the bottom all link to the Groves book, not the other two.
Pooti,
Adding carbs back has been good, especially in the manner in which I did it (eat tons by themselves for 3 days, and then return to a normal diet with similar ratios to Kwasniewski). I may continue to eat many all-meat meals for sake of digestion. Digestion is just too good when meals consist of one food group.
Mike,
Thanks for the heads up on those links. Consida it dun. (fixed that is)
How did you eat 500g carbs by themselves for 3 days straight? You mean like white rice and nothing else at all?
I never watch news, sports, or dumb crap like reality TV. I watch very little TV, like 22 minutes a day (one show), that I record in advance, so I can skip through the commercials. The ads are depressing: junk food, drugs, fast food, more drugs, and some more junk food. Nobody realizes that there is a connection between foods and drugs being advertised.
hi, love your blog. i have been following Dr. K’s diet for about 9 months now, at least as well as i can, and it is amazing. i was wondering if you have an example of what you eat according to Dr. K’s ratios on your blog or if you would mind posting one. i have a hard time knowing what to eat in those ratios here in the US since the pork products he uses aren’t readily available. i am in my second month of pregnancy, too, and i have been craving more carbs than i usually eat and getting bloated as a result.
anyway, i agree about the BS on the news. i haven’t watched it in years. my husband and i make fun of the stupid stuff we find in magazines or online that is clearly propaganda or sheer stupidity. we try to inform our family and friends about the truth, but the respnse is usually “why would they lie to us? there is no way they are getting paid to say that stuff!” hmmm, okay. brainwashing at its finest.
amanda
Fiber is a big cause of bloating, esp if you mix foods together like meat & eggs, meat & cheese, meat & eggs & cheese, and other abominations. Simple meals are the easiest to digest, like 1 or 2 foods. If you can't eat food by itself, why eat it at all? For ex: I'd rather eat butter or macadamia oil by itself than eat rice or bread by itself. But if you had to binge on carbs, eating them alone with no fats or proteins would probably help to avoid bloating and other problems.
A mono-diet or duo-diet can be immensely beneficial. Alfred Pennington and Melvin Anchell both advocated a duo-diet. They told people to eat a large serving of meat (like 8 oz) as the first course of a meal, followed by a baked potato OR a bunch of grapes OR a bowl of rice OR a cup of blueberries/strawberries OR some watermelon, etc. But they eliminated all eggs, milk, cheese, and cream. The only dairy products allowed were butter until you reached your goal weight. So, there were basically only two foods in a meal: meat first, then a carb.
http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php't=295008
well, the reason i think i am getting bloated is that i am eating yogurt, for instance, with a few rasberries, when i haven’t eaten yogurt in months. or cottage cheese that seems to be a good snack when i get nauseous between meals, and again, i haven’t eaten that stuff in months mostly b/c i was very conscious of the fat to protein ratio. i used to eat a cup of cream, half cup of milk to thin the cream out a bit, and 8 egg yolks in a shake every morning. some days it was fine, but others it would make me nauseous b/c it was just too much even though i sipped on it all morning. i still do some sort of shake but i have been variying the amounts.
so now that i am pregnant i am trying to make sure that i get not only enough fat and calories, but enough food in general and it is hard b/c i have texture issues and can’t just eat butter straight or even melted on stuff. potatoes are my best bet for getting butter. also, i can’t stand meat by itself. some sort of aversion. i eat it, mind you, but i need to have it with potatoes or in a sauce of some kind.
i eat meat and cheese or eggs and meat etc. all the time and have never had a problem with it. i think it becomes a problem for me when fruit or grains are involved, but i gave those up a while ago.
amanda
It’s all about food combining. Different food digest in different ways. Try google it. Generally, there’re three major rules to have great digestion: 1) eat fruit alone or 30 mins before you eat anything else or 3hours afterward 2) don’t eat starch with flesh protein( such as potatoes and fish) together in a meal or wait 3hours between them 3) non-flesh protein are fine with starch but an ideal
Combination( eg eggs,cheese) trust me I highly recommended it. It
Nearly save my life as a 12 years old :)
What about all the talk about getting good proportions of carbs, proteins and fats at each meal to keep that healthy thyroid and metabolism?
Also; do you think it only causes problems if you eat meat, eggs, and cheese together IF there is fiber – because I enjoy eating all three together, usually with no to very low fiber carbs. It’s too early to tell if it causes bloating, especially since I change my meals often; sometimes I enjoy a complex meal, sometimes I opt for simple. All depends on the moooood.
I do agree mono-diets can be effective in digestion, though, just don’t know that combining foods could be that harmful if they are providing the right minerals and vitamins, with good ratio of fat, carrrrbs and proteeeinz
“i eat meat and cheese or eggs and meat etc. all the time and have never had a problem with it. i think it becomes a problem for me when fruit or grains are involved, but i gave those up a while ago.”
It might not cause a big problem. It may be subtle, like gaining weight by eating them together, and not gaining weight if they are eaten separately. Charles says, for instance, tha the gains weight if he eats cheese or eggs. But he is eating it with meat! So, he is ignoring the chance that the combination of foods will cause weight gain. In fact, Alfred Pennington and Melvin Anchell both said this. They told people to eliminate eggs, cheese, cream, milk, etc. The only food allowed was meat and butter with a carbohydrate eaten after the meat (like potato, rice, or fruit). They also said you would gain weight when you added cheese and eggs.
So, this is not my idea at all. This is Pennington and Anchell, plus the Koran, Bible, and Torah – if you are religious. They all advise against eating mixes of food, like meat-and-eggs, meat-and-milk, meat-and-cheese, etc. Charles acts like cheese and eggs are unhealthy, because he gains a few pounds by eating them. I conclude instead that he gained weight, because of mixing foods together. This was noticed 50 years ago by Pennington, which Charles totally ignores.
“What about all the talk about getting good proportions of carbs, proteins and fats at each meal to keep that healthy thyroid and metabolism?”
I don’t think you have to “micro-manage” every meal like this. You should be able to eat without a calculator and a slide rule and a food guide, IMO.
“Also; do you think it only causes problems if you eat meat, eggs, and cheese together IF there is fiber – because I enjoy eating all three together, usually with no to very low fiber carbs. It’s too early to tell if it causes bloating, especially since I change my meals often; sometimes I enjoy a complex meal, sometimes I opt for simple. All depends on the moooood.”
Again, this is not just my theory. It’s right in Alfred Pennington’s papers and Melvin Anchell’s books which were based on Pennington’s research. Plus, all the major religions have such prohibitions, although many ignore them. Then we have anecdotal proof, like Charles and Matt.
Charles claims that he lost weight when he stopped eating cheese and eggs, what he should say is that he lost weight by not eating cheese WITH MEAT or egg WITH MEAT. He ignores that qualification and instead claims that cheese and eggs are bad foods. Maybe if he had eaten them by themselves or with butter, he would not have gained any weight.
Limiting or avoiding fiber will probably help some, but why not eat simpler meals (like meat and rice, cheese and potato, etc). Did primitive tribes eat meals of meat-and-eggs, meat-and-cheese, or meat- and-cheese-and-eggs? I doubt it. Most of them ate simple fare, based on accounts by Weston Price and Robert McCarrison. I think people would benefit greatly from eating more simple meals. They would eat less and be more satisfied.
well, now that i think about it, i don’t usually eat all those things together. i eat cream and eggs/yolks. i eat meat and potatoes w/ butter and cheese and sometimes sour cream. i don’t make complicated meals, but we do have meatloaf, which has a few breadcrumbs and vegetables, or shepherd’s pie to which i add more butter for myself. i might have gained a little weight since starting the OD, but not much.
soups are also a good way to get butter and/or egg yolks. i take plain homemade stock and add yolks to it.
Bruce,
I ate white rice with sea veggies and about 1T of beef tallow for the day. I ate about 1 cup of rice (dry per meal). The very first day I drank about a gallon of raw carrot juice and raw orange juice total (not mixed.
Team Smith,
Try eating a carb meal for lunch every day, with little or no protein. Just eat potatoes and butter, or rice with butter and a few veggies, etc. That will top off your glycogen stores, but should come with less bloating that you often get when eating mixed meals that contain lots of carbs (something I’ve dealt with the past two days eating homemade pasta with oxtail soup).
What was the point of bingeing on carbs? Why not go back to your regular diet, if you weren’t craving carbs? Or why not do more carb binges? Have you done a cyclic ketogenic diet? Very low carb 5-6 days a week, then high-carb and low-fat for 1-2 days. Body-builders use that diet, known as the Anabolic Diet, to get very ripped and shredded with far more muscle than a zero-carb dieter has ever seen. Eating a lot of grains doesn’t cause me bloating, unless they are whole grains or bleached enriched bromated grains. Drinking water with meals worsens bloating. If you keep water intake low (pref nil), bloating is unlikely to happen, IME.
Wasn’t craving carbs, but wanted to get back to my normal self as fast as possible, as I had lost sex drive and had developed awful breath – was about to see my girlfried for the fist time in 5 weeks and needed to get my act together.
I think I will do a weekly carb day or something along those lines with an otherwise very low carb diet. Carb day will involve mostly white rice and well-cooked vegetables.
I’m continuing to lose weight. Weighed in at 170 today and getting quite lean, so maybe I am tapping into that effect somewhat despite being pretty lax about it. Exercise has been beyond minimal for the past 10 days.
I’m currently experimenting with Anchell and Pennington’s ideas, but wiith slight changes. Basically I eat meat OR eggs OR dairy, followed by a single carb (honey, grapefruit juice, sourdough bread, baked potato, organic white sushi rice, orange juice, maple syrup, etc.). I’ve noticed that I seem to be in mild ketosis all of the time, despite the carbs. I sleep 4-6 hours vs. 7-8. My digestion’s better and I’m seeing more muscle definition in my chest. My skin is also smoother. You’re on the cutting edge with this “attacking problems head on” and not cowering like a wuss before the carbs. The carb really isn’t the problem. Metabolism is so much more complex than carbohydrates. People like Charles are laughable. For ex: it’s been shown recently that fat people have different gut bacteria than lean people. Abnormal gut bacteria are both cause and effect of obesity. Here’s a good article talking about all of this.
“One study cited by the authors observed that young, conventionally reared mice have a significantly higher body fat content than a laboratory-bred, germ-free strain of mice that lack these bacteria, even though they consumed less food than their germ-free counterparts.
“When the same research group transplanted gut microbiota from normal mice into germ-free mice, the germ-free mice experienced a 60 percent increase in body fat within two weeks, without any increase in food consumption or obvious differences in energy expenditure.”
http://asunews.asu.edu/20080613_gutbacteria
Anybody who says “carbs make you fat” is full of crap. Try getting fat on nothing but white rice, or potatoes, with no fat added. It would be impossible. Next, try getting fat on a fruitarian diet. Eating carbs does not make you fat. Your body’s biochemistry makes you fat.
Bruce, I do not think a calculator should be used for health either. I also just have a feeling certain things will be more important over all – like the ratios (not like, EXACT ratios – just like overall, bare with me here, like not 200g of carbs in a meal obviously) and nutrients in the food.
Also, Is there any particular scientific explanation as to why meat and eggs added together would cause a specific weight gain? I’m sure it’s a possibility if some cultures had water near by them and were thirsty they wouldn’t hesitate to drink right after a meal, either. Then again, I don’t know an incredible amount of information about a ton of different tribes, nor religion. The religions that speak of diet are based on belief, most likely. Like jewish people not eating from the hind of the animal because it is the dirty part. hoho. Also, there are lots of religions out there with lots of different diets. Like indians with vegetarianism – not eating animals because of karma. They did, however, speak directly about how a cow gives milk to make people healthy, pretty much. Did the other diets really state that these food combining practices created health for them?
And how Charles ate the eggs or dairy – even if it was with meat or by itself – could be an incorrect statement of his weight loss, just like you said. MAYbe if he ate them alone he would have not gained weight. Maybe he DID eat them alone a lot of times (unless he showed his diet at all days or something), therefor it could have been a different reason. It could be he has even got imbalances hidden or have sensitivities still inside that could have reacted to either dairy or eggs. If the dairy was raw, also; or maybe if the eggs were raw. Also, how long he had them in his diet to conclude they were the cause. It’s not like he is a sooopa human, and on the optimal diet, for, we don’t really know what that is – so just cause he gained some weight maybe from eggs and dairy doesn’t make it the optimal thing, ya knooow?
I’m just saying it seems like a different type of calculator when you bring in food combining like eggs and meat – things that have both protein and fat. Good things overall, with good vitamins and minerals. I bet you would be able to find some kind of tribe that combines things like milk and meat or eggs and meat — i mean it doesn’t seem that impossible. Even so, there are so few cultures left still sticking to a native diet (I mean, I’m guessing, since the whole western diet thing is spreading like wildfire). Plus, we don’t always have to follow their example (considering there are tons of different cultural examples out there). We could figure out new things through experimenting with ourselves – like Matt has so elegantly done with his FUMPing and what not. It’s all in good fun and experience.
The bodybuilding thing is an example of newer diet formed — but still, it really isn’t that much needed for optimal health. Looking ripped isn’t always good, especially since bodybuilders are hardcore about what they eat and the scheduling of it, etc. It’s not too natural, but perhaps you knew this. Just too much stress and thinking about it. It should all just flooow.
Haha, Matt, you must have fun going through so many interesting transitions. That’s so cool what you can do; I never have idols, and man, you are so one of them. respec
-chlooe
Abso-freakin’-lutely.
The digestive bacteria connection with obesity doesn’t surprise me one bit. In fact, I’ve developed a theory in alignment with exactly that which is concurrent with THE POTBELLY SYNDROME, a recent book blaming obesity on infection/inflammation, compensatory high cortisol, and the subsequent increase in insulin.
I think much of the cytokine overproduction stems from chronic inflammation of the digetive tract. Of course having an unlimited supply of the raw material in which cytokines are constructed (omega 6 from plant oils) doesn’t help. Plus, I just read something on increased cytokine production’s effect on insulin sensitivity. Decrease cytokine production and you overturn insulin resistance. This may be why starving oneself of poly’s is so effective at improving health.
That inflammation and bacterial overgrowth is fueled the most by fiber and fructose, but with a damaged digestive tract casein and gluten can be very significant contributors as well, as they can slip through undigested, act upon opiate receptors which modulate cytokine activity, and create disaster – all while creating addiction to those very foods that bring about demise.
It could be perfectly OK to eat 200g of carbs per meal if you don't eat lots of fat and protein with it, or if you're a laborer or athlete. The carbs aren't to blame for all of the obesity or chronic disease, despite propaganda by Taubes & others. Matt has punched holes in those theories, like the fact that McCarrison found Indians eating 90% white rice who had no tooth decay. That punches a hole through Weston Price's theories and the propaganda by Taubes and Charles.
As for the effects of mixing foods like meat and eggs, meat and dairy, etc. I'm not sure of the scientific explanation, but my hunch is that each food requires slightly different digestive conditions for optimal digestion. There might be a subtle degradation by mixing foods, esp cooked foods. The problem might be less with raw food, but I think it may still impact digestion somewhat. Some of the rules say it's OK to eat egg with milk, fish with milk, or egg with fish, and I think butter would be neutral.
Re: drinking water. I feel that it pulls minerals out of the body and de-hydrates the body (paradoxical as that may seem). We can get water from food. The body can adapt to low water intake, without being dehydrated. Tap water is hazardous for a number of reasons, like the chlorine and fluoride that are added (along with many other chemicals most likely). I think it is a mistake to consume massive amounts of water, in particular, esp after meals or with them when it may cause bloating.
Re: Charles. He has described his diet, on Jimmy's LivinLaVidaLowCarb forum and now his own forum. He was eating things like fast food cheeseburgers and he saw that avoiding the cheeses made him lose weight. On the basis of that, you could come up with many theories to explain a gain of a few pounds. Like maybe it did not even matter. Or maybe it was due to additives in the cheese. He said he had less reaction to brie, which is clearly more natural than the processeed Cheese from fast food restaurants. He also ate meat and eggs, I think. There was never any hint that he ate the cheese without meat or the eggs without meat. He mixed it all together, which makes it hard to come to a valid conclusion. Maybe if it was raw cheese or raw eggs, he wouldn't have had the problem. But another thing is that he constantly tells people they should not eat butter, even though he's never mentioned any problem with eating butter. It's just his dogma. He has got himself convinced that dairy is bad, on the basis of very weak proof.
And whether he gained the weight or not is really a superficial criteria to say that something is unhealthy. He was not obese. He went from like 146 pounds to 150 pounds. It may be trivial, but that is all he cares about – weight.
Stefansson described the Eskimo diet as eating basically the same food over and over for months at a time. They ate new foods based on the seasons and what was available. It's not like they ate seals and eggs for breakfast, polar bears and salmon for lunch, caribou and whale for dinner. More like they ate caribou five months, seal three months, eggs for one month, polar bear for two months. There wasn't a lot of variety, AFAIK.
“…This may be why starving oneself of poly’s is so effective at improving health.”
Limiting PUFAs, fiber, and grains (esp processed wheat) helps address most of the digestive problems, IMO. I am sure that Colin Campbell’s studies would be quite different if he replace corn oil with coconut oil, sugar with raw honey, cornstarch with tapioca or potato, and cheese instead of casein. He was using totally inferior food, IMO. Taking out the PUFAs helps a great deal. They are known to cause cancer, aging, immunity suppression, and so forth.
“That inflammation and bacterial overgrowth is fueled the most by fiber and fructose, but with a damaged digestive tract casein and gluten can be very significant contributors as well”
I feel that fiber and starches are most to blame for feeding bacteria once your normal ecology is ruined. Sugars, fats, and proteins do not allow the bacteria to thrive. So, I think a diet like the Primal Diet or Ray Peat’s would do more to change the situation. High-fat, high saturated fat, low-PUFAs, low-fiber (or zero fiber), and low-to-moderate carbs, with avoidance of starches.
Many diseases seem to response to starch free diet, including nuts and seeds that are high in starch (peanuts and cashews, for instance, which aren’t really nuts I believe). Ankylosing spondylitis and IBS are two diseases that benefit. Probably cystic fibrosis, colitis, etc. This may be why some benefit on the Primal Diet, that eliminates starches. Starches will absorb iodine, this is basic chemistry, just like PUFA oils will absorb iodine. The result can be thyroid deficiency if you don’t eat lots of iodine. When such foods are eliminated, metabolism speeds up massively as a result.
http://zarkme.blog.com/
http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~design.machine-tanya/irritable.bowel/
http://www.breakingtheviciouscycle.info/
http://www.scdiet.org/
but Dr. K says that potatoes are the best source of carbs as well as non sweet vegetables, and one can eat more of them b/c they are a compound carbohydrate–up to 100g per day. i’m not really sure what he thinks about rice, but i have been avoiding it.
and then how does one stay satieted if they eat say a potato or rice and veges with no fat? i am ravenous if i don’t get enough fats at a time. in fact, before i discovered the OD or NT before that, i was hungry ALL the time. then when i cut out fruit and grains and mostly ate protein with fats and a little carbs, i was fine, but i still need tons of fats or i get desperate.
Man you boys have been busy today! Just when I think I’m getting a handle on things even more information is dumped into my mind! haha.
Matt did you by any chance check your glucose? What do you think 3 days of carbs did to your insulin? Any inkling that it’s causing probs now? If not, do you think it’s cuz you are a healthy weight and have a healthy metabolism?
How is your mood doing now compared to zc?
I have ankylosising spondylitis and have had asthma in the past. My latest choline challenge test came back normal. My doc said that “it happens” sometimes. I have been lcing under at or under 50g of carbs for most of the time, (occasional lapses) for 8 years now. But the back spine thing is still pretty painful.
A high fat diet is definitely more satiating. Sure I get hungrier when I eat mostly carbs, but then I just eat more often and more total food. That does not mean that I get fat.
Pooti, I suspect my insulin levels increased when I ate rice, but then fell back down in between meals. The problem is chronically-elevated insulin levels – caused by insulin resistance. This is NOT caused by carbohydrate consumption but underlying problems that lead to insulin resistance. Like I mentioned in an earlier comment, it’s more complex. It has a lot to do with cytokine activity, cortisol production, thyroid-hormone levels, etc.
If one can raise thyroid, lower cortisol, and lower inflammation (cytokine activity), then you’ll return to your ideal body weight no matter what your nutrient ratios are.
Low-carb diets can help people do this sometimes, by keeping insulin down, and overall is probably the best strategy for healing, but so can eating a vegan diet with 80% carbs like that recommended by Joel Fuhrman or Doug Graham.
There is more to the story for sure, and what Bruce brings up about eliminating digestive inflammation and irritation, as well as removing starches to boost iodine levels, has tremendous therapeutic potential.
The holy grail of nutrition is to be able to eat carbs, proteins, and fats without getting fat like a healthy person with a healthy metabolism can do. Only a diet that can really provide ultimate healing can do that, and I agree that guys like Vonderplanitz many times deliver on that and deserve mainstream attention.
Thanks Matt! So let me ask you? Do you think Schwartzbein is a better diet to follow than say a zc diet for control of cortisol and thyroid hormone? Or do you think something like zc or JK’s diet it preferable?
I’m embarrassed to say I haven’t read Vonderplanitz.*blush*.
And so the theory of eicosenoids driving overproduction of cytokines and thereby increasing inflammation(that I originally read about from Sears)is valid in your opinion? Man I lost 2lbs a week on Zone but had heart palpitations like a big dog on it and finally quit it.
Glad to hear you have suffered no illeffects to adding back the carbs, man do I wish that could be me one day! How’s your mood and emotions? Do you feel any volatility that was not there and did your sex drive come back in time? :D ;) Sorry but had to ask. I also suspect Mr. Hanky is livin large? haha!
Bruce,
Yeah, I meant 200g carbs WITH high fat and protein — sorry for that confusion. I’m not someone who pins everything on carbs, trust me. This was an example if the ratios are messed up – like you either go high carbs or high fat, pretty much, but to extremes I’ve noticed. Protein is kind of the thing the atkins focuses on more so then fat, and I think that’s one of the reasons why it sucks. Like just a week or so ago I was eating all carbs(or I should say, sugar) and no fat, now I’m on to all fat and a small amount of carbs. And well, I’m just waiting for notices to occur. The point being, I understand there are tons of different “carbs” out there and I have never assumed they are cause of problems by themselves. I used to think fat was the problem of everything after reading 80-10-10, but wow, am I glad I got past that. hehe.
About the food combining; the eskimos are only one culture, of course. I realize they are exclaimed as remarkably healthy, but that may be contributed to other things overall. Perhaps it wouldn’t make a big difference if they did eat things mixed, cha know? As for Charles, I agree that what he was assuming is too simple to declare dairy and eggs as bad. Especially since fast food was involved — i wouldn’t even trust the meat from those places. And dairy being raw could be very significant. Though, I think eggs are kind of like meat, and we evolved cookin’ em.
Yeah! he could have gained weight in a good way, even. Weight is totally not everything. Nor are looks -completely- Obviously if you have poor muscle definition and a lot of body fat, that’s bad. But no one said you had to have a said percentage of body fat and popping veined muscles to be on a perfect diet.
For these reasons, food combining is less and less of a concern for me – something I won’t worry about right now if I’m not seeing problems over a period of time.
Yes, that would make sense the body could adjust to water intake. But with the different cultures, it depends on which culture it is, how they get water, when they drink it; and there are plenty of cultures out there that walk miles even just to get water, which can be quite dehydrating. Some have a source near by. Chimpanzees also drink water, yet can get water from their food also. We could pull conclusions from anything, any one tribe, or one fact, but overall the information we see should be repeated often (with different reasons each time for why it may be good) – like no one just established “fat is good because…” We see that in tons of different books now, without even it being the subject. Like in Fiber Menace – the subject is fiber, but the author talks about enzymes in raw milk and fats that are good as well – saturated boooyyyee
team smith;
“but Dr. K says that potatoes are the best source of carbs as well as non sweet vegetables, and one can eat more of them b/c they are a compound carbohydrate–up to 100g per day. i’m not really sure what he thinks about rice, but i have been avoiding it.”
Jan Kwasniewski is a guru, and just ‘cuz he says potatoes are better doesn’t make it right. I have always thought that was cultural bias. I use organic white sushi rice, like Lundgren. Sushi rice is short grain, so it’s lower in fat (PUFAs) than long grain rice or potatoes, and I think rice is the safest grain digestion-wise. Other starches I like are pearl tapioca, arrowroot flour, and yes potatoes. Those are all low in fat and PUFAs, as long as you avoid the potato skin. Cornstarch is also good, like in a sauce. My main goal is to avoid grain PUFAs and fiber on the whole. I do eat Berlin’s Sourdough Spelt bread occasionally, too. I would prefer white sourdough bread, but I can’t find one with natural ingredients (unbleached flour, filtered water, and sea salt). In the past, I got French Meadow sourdough white bagels, which were great, but they stopped making them. Any refined grains should be un-bleached, un-enriched, etc.
I think Matt’s idea of the carb binge is brilliant. Eat zero-carbs for 5-6 days a week. Then switch to ZERO-fat for 1 or 2 days a week. Just BINGE on carbs, like a cup of white rice (dry), 2-4 potatoes, 3 or 4 glasses of strained juice (pref not apple or pear), just fruits, vegetables, potatoes, white rice, etc. One tiny drop of fat, like a tablespoon of beef fat or butter or coconut oil maybe. Then switch back to very-low-carb. This may help the body heal and grow stronger – as opposed to eating carb-free diet for the rest of your life and never healing.
Pooti:
“Matt did you by any chance check your glucose? What do you think 3 days of carbs did to your insulin? Any inkling that it’s causing probs now? If not, do you think it’s cuz you are a healthy weight and have a healthy metabolism?”
I bet his glucose didn’t rise very much, because of extremely low fat and protein intake during the carb binge. Eating the carbs by themselves, like dry white rice and plain baked potatoes and juices will push your body to adapt to the opposite extreme of zero-carb.
“I have ankylosising spondylitis and have had asthma in the past.”
For people with some conditions like AS, it may be best to avoid starches. Get a bottle of iodine to test food for starch content. If it turns dark, the food has starch. Certain nuts, seeds, vegetables, nad fruits contain starch. And obviously grains, beans, and potatoes do.
http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~design.machine-tanya/irritable.bowel/test.htm
“Yeah, I meant 200g carbs WITH high fat and protein — sorry for that confusion. I’m not someone who pins everything on carbs, trust me.”
“Protein is kind of the thing the atkins focuses on more so then fat, and I think that’s one of the reasons why it sucks.”
Atkins didn’t emphasize fat enough, and he started to emphasize frankenfoods in the newer edititions of his book (after like 1972). Dr. Bernstein has the exact same problem, telling people to eat all sorts of artificial sweeteners (man-made chemicals), sugar alcohols, stevia, and so forth. This stuff is bad news, since it sends a false signal to the body, so it expects sugar that is not there. You should only eat natural sugars, IMO. It is better to eat table sugar than stevia and sucralose and aspartame and xylitol. And cane/beet sugar is healthier by far than high fructose corn syrup or crystal fructose or agave syrup.
“Like just a week or so ago I was eating all carbs (or I should say, sugar) and no fat, now I’m on to all fat and a small amount of carbs. And well, I’m just waiting for notices to occur. The point being, I understand there are tons of different “carbs” out there and I have never assumed they are cause of problems by themselves.”
You are wiser than most low-carb gurus. They blame everything on carbs, totally ignoring healthy tribes that ate carbs, as well as the fact that most people do not eat carbs in the absence of fat and protein, and they usually eat the wrong kinds of fat (esp PUFAs and trans fats). I have seen a lot of thin people eating diets filled with sugar, but low in fat and protein. Just hang around a grocery or gas station and you’ll see very thin people walking out carrying 24-packs of Regular Coke. If you have good genes or the right gut bacteria or you don’t eat much fat and protein, you can eat carbs all day without being fat or overweight. Many models live on alcohol, cigarettes, and huge amounts of carbs. It’s so much more complex than “carbs make you fat.” Where are the fat Kitavans? Where aren’t a lot of fat Japanese or Chinese eating their traditional low-fat + low-protein diet. When they start eating doughnuts, french fries, potato chips, candy, cake, pie, and other Western dietary staples, they quickly become obese.
Definitely. I mean, I wasn’t drinking coke, but I was eating like pounds of dates. haha poundage of the dates. All of it was natural source, of course. I only moved to this because I had effects of low protein/fat symptoms – like thinning nails and obvious things like that. My acne also didn’t get any better – among other things I still wasn’t happy with.
Yep, there are so many people out there eating high carbs without showing western derived diseases. No doubt I whole heartily agree that ruptured vegetable oils and low-fat concoctions must have to parallel somehow this new found disease among people.
Dr. B. talks that maybe 25% of Western Culture has evolved to the point where they can handle higher carbohydrate diets? Any thoughts on this? I know for certain that I’m not one of them lol.
Doc Bernstein is one of my favorite topics, as his testimonials are the perfect example of how artificial sweeteners make life miserable for low-carbers.
All of the testimonials are like, “the diet sure helped me, but I wouldn’t wish it on my worst enemy.”
A low-carb diet, assuming it’s not ketogenic, is the easiest damn diet in the world to follow. It’s incredibly satisfying and completely annihilates carbohydrate, sugar, and alcohol cravings if followed correctly. Bernstein’s microwaved American cheese “crackers” with diet Coke and a high-fiber salad is awful. It is torture and provides zero healing.
Pooti, if you really want to heal your carbohydrate intolerance, I suggest eating nothing but carbohydrates for an entire week once every month or two (like many ‘cleanses’ recommend). Then shift back to your current diet, which looks pretty solid (although I think protein could be a little lower (fat higher), and that you could be more consistent with carb amounts from meal to meal).
That’s my 2 cents at least. Keep in mind that removing most protein and fat is just as effective for lowering insulin levels as removing carbs (obviously one leads to muscle wasting long-term and one does not, but in terms of lowering insulin they both work). Guys like Joel Fuhrman really are noticing benefits amongst patients that follow their advice.
Of course you could still try zero carb for a month or so too. I think either approach will yield faster and more dramatic health improvments.
I suggest a basic rice diet with a few vegetables from a digestive standpoint. It feels very similar to the zero carb diet in terms of the health benefits you notice.
And yes my sex drive came back just in time!
Mr. Hanky was livin’ large, but is now upset with me as my diet is once again very low in fiber.
Matt: “Keep in mind that removing most protein and fat is just as effective for lowering insulin levels as removing carbs (obviously one leads to muscle wasting long-term and one does not, but in terms of lowering insulin they both work).”
I don’t think a low-protein would waste muscle unless combined with low calorie intake and lack of exercise. For ex: if you lift weights while fasting, I don’t think you will lose much muscle. If you are sedentary, you will. Human milk has like 39% carbs, 55% fat, and 6% protein and babies have no trouble growing from milk. Potatoes have around 6 protein by calories. If you ate massive amounts of potatoes and lifted weights and you did not fall short on calories, I don’t see why you would lose muscle. On the other hand, if you ate a low-carb diet, while sitting at a desk all day, and cut your calories too low, you would be losing a lot of muscle mass.
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts/dairy-and-egg-products/95/2
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts/vegetables-and-vegetable-products/2554/2
Here is a blog arguing that the optimal diet for gaining muscle is high-starch, low-sugar, and very low-fat. I think it is important to eat plenty of iodine if you eat starches, like lean fish and/or at least a quart/liter of milk.
http://veganmaster.blogspot.com/
Matt: “Guys like Joel Fuhrman really are noticing benefits amongst patients that follow their advice.”
I think the benefits from Fuhrman’s diet come from calorie restriction – not real healing. By eliminating refined sugars, flours (even whole grain), and vegetable oils, and severely limiting animal foods (10% of calories or less), most couldn’t eat more than 1200-1500 Calories a day.
I think what Matt’s pointing out is that is harder to get muscle on an all carb diet and to keep it. Like I had been doing is a perfect example – and I was eating a lot of carbs and enough calories. Sure I could build muscle – but it took a shit load of energy and time. Even as Matt said with this diet – he had not worked out nearly as much as he did on high carb, yet experienced over all more muscle mass. Plus the fact that Graham and the other dude, though they have muscle, look rather thin..
You can build muscle if you do anything, but certain dietary factors play a big role in how your body keeps up with this muscle and lean mass.
Chloe: “Weight is totally not everything. Nor are looks -completely- Obviously if you have poor muscle definition and a lot of body fat, that’s bad. But no one said you had to have a said percentage of body fat and popping veined muscles to be on a perfect diet.”
Amen. I just looked through the pictures in Weston Price’s book recently and saw several men with their shirts off. A few women too. :) No six-pack stomachs. Oh, wait. They must have all been jealous of Charles (who wasn’t even alive) because he has a six-pack and they don’t. LOL. I agree that there is more to health than having a certain percentage of body fat. I’m sure the tribes Price studied didn’t wake up each morning and get on a scale and look in the mirror and feel bad that they couldnt’see their abs.
Matt/Bruce
in response to your exchange about mono/duo food eating for digestive ease, I would love to hear your opinions on such a plan for someone with candida/gut bacterial issues.
Of course, zero carb would seem obvious choice but just cant manage it, despite many attempts.
Eliminating fibre has improved things: no longer cramping and bloat.
Currently with white rice and fatty minced beef.
The rice is starchy so this would be considered a candida no no. Cant think of other possibilities without bumping into fruit or fibrous vegies.
Kind wishes from Oz
Chloe, you were eating mostly sugars. In 95% of the top body-builders you look at they are eating high-starch & low-sugar. That's how the sumo wrestlers eat to put on more muscle than anyone in the world. They're not fat because of the carbs, as Taubes says. They're fat because they do not eat breakfast, they exercise without food, they eat all of their food late in the day, they nap after a meal, they eat socially, eat high-protein, and high-fat too. If you had eaten potatoes and fish, you could put on muscle easily. But it's true that most could not eat enough with pure carbs. But Matt did. He ate 500g of carbs a day for 3 days. I'd say that you can gain muscle on that if you add a bit of protein and some fat too.
OH i seee…that’s very interesting. I think I’ve heard of this tribe of runners in africa that do things similar to that only they’re runners, so they’re fit; i forgot the damn name, but their diet is mostly bread, dairy, vegetables, and only a small amount of meat. They’re like the top runners of the world or one of them or something. Wow I sound so intelligent right now.
It seems it would be hard to eat enough calories of any fat/protein/carb, if isolated enough. There are a lot of organs in the body though, and I wonder how each would respond when starch is high vs. fat and, with protein even. Perhaps when we’re babies, the milk that is first despatched is high in carbs as to give us kind of a kick for the upcoming milk after that which is high in fat – so we’ll eat a lot and eat enough to grow? (there’s two different milks that are leeched through thee…teet? haha)
The starch could also attribute to the sumo-wrestlers fat, not only their muscle. Since their body’s insulin is all messed up, I bet thats why when they rest after a meal or what not it triggers to store all their extra carbage. Think about carbo loading or whatever for athletes- they also have muscles, but what if they were to try different approaches – could they gain that muscle easier? It could also be their training regimen that makes these sumos have the most muscle, eh?
Basically, though, it would probably not be as efficient if you were to eat only carb type things, versus only animal product type things as far as muscle is concerned, because there is a significance, i feel, of overall recovery between the two. Other factors also play a part, though, so this can be quite a confusing subject.
Matt – I so agree with you about the artificial sweeteners!!! They are pure death. My blood glucose spikes as much with AS as it does with real sugar. I used to think well, if I was gonna have only a bite of something, I would at least do it with AS. But I started really thinking about that statement and thought…what an idiot!
First off, I can't have "just a bite" of something with my medical crap. So that kind of thinking is no longer in my vocabulary. The other thing I think is that it has to be much better for you if you are able to handle sugar, to eat the very smallest, serving of a sugar containing product that uses the most unrefined form of sugar – like maybe rapidura or something like that. So yeah, I am pretty amazed at Dr. Bs dietary advice about sweeteners now that you mention it. The problem I had with Dr Bs diet is that it is very hard for me to control my quantities of veggies when eating carbs. I look at my scrawny 4-5oz serving of protein and want to pile my plate with veg. That does lead to ongoing blood sugar shifts because I'm still in the binge mentality.
I like the zc approach so far because I am not measuring. Not weighing. I'm satisfied. I stay full longer. I don't engage in vain imaginings of fat slathered fibrous veggies that used to haunt me so…haha.
That kind of thing. I will do some more reading on Fuhrman (sp?). I had read some of his stuff but I just get nervous thinking about eating nothing but carbs and it's relationship to insulin in my T2 body.
Hey btw, what did you mean about keeping my carb level more stable from meal to meal? Are you talking about when I'm low carb 30-50g/carb per day or vlc <20g or zc? Thanks for all your tolerance and help!
Chloe:
"Basically, though, it would probably not be as efficient if you were to eat only carb type things, versus only animal product type things as far as muscle is concerned, because there is a significance, i feel, of overall recovery between the two…"
It's very difficult to build muscles on zero-carb (meat, butter, eggs, cheese). Anthony Colpo has discussed this on his forum. No pro athlete or bodybuilder is eating zero-carb. Athletes who do eat a low-carb diet either cycle the carbs or stay out of ketosis (<50g). When a zero carber wins the New York City Marathon, Iron Man Triathlon, Tour de France, Mr. Universe, 8 Olympic gold medals, and so forth, then I'll believe that zero-carb is the best for building muscle. Eating zero-carb, Charles said he loses muscle if he doesn't exercise. I don't see any special muscle-building ability of meat. Jan Kwasniewski's not very muscular and he eats the same as Matt. Genetics is a big factor, obviously. So we can't look at Matt and say his diet is the best if others eating the same diets (high-fat, low-carb, high-starches, low-sugars) do not have the same results.
http://www.lowcarbmuscle.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6810#post6810
I think there are a lot of differences between those two’s diets, actually. I mean, by looking at his site and what Matt’s described as his current diet – then again I don’t reallly know everything either of them are eating everyday. Like, I didn’t see one beef recipe on docta K’s site – the type of meat eaten and everything could play a big part you know? Like the saturated, and also if it’s organic, what’s raw and what the levels of omega 3s and 6s are. So who knows. I’m not only drawing conclusions from what he’s done; he’s been providing information for me and it all really makes a lot of sense. Also, when you say it’s not possible to keep muscle easily on a zero carb diet…that could be if you aren’t eating enough, like Matt had mentioned. Who knows if Charles does eat enough, maybe that’s why he looses muscle. Or maybe his body’s adjusted to him over-exercising. I never said zero carb was best per say, I just think high carb shouldn’t be considered the best from observation of sumo wrestlers – that’s all. You would think if you’ve read about Price that you wouldn’t bring up genetics so quick; I mean Price is the one that said the food/diet played a huge part in degeneration. I’m testing it for myself though, also – so yeah. I’m never really one to be in strict belief haha. It could well be genetics, but I’d like to look farther then that, honestly.
Chloe: “You would think if you’ve read about Price that you wouldn’t bring up genetics so quick; I mean Price is the one that said the food/diet played a huge part in degeneration … It could well be genetics, but I’d like to look farther then that, honestly.”
After degeneration takes place, there is still the genetic component. Some people have excellent digestion and health, and produce healthy children even on heavily processed foods. Others have a miserable digestion and health, even on the “best” foods. Maybe genetics isn’t the word I’m looking for, but general constitution. I don’t care how good your diet is, you’re not going to become an elite bodybuilder or athlete without the right genes (and probably steroids or other drugs). Mike Mentzer, for example, had awesome genes. He’s the first and only bodybuilder ever to get a perfect score in Mr. Universe. He ate junk food like doughnuts and said that “a calorie is a calorie.”
Genes are clearly involved in life-span, and lots of other things. For ex: people think Jack LaLanne is so healthy because he’s still going strong at 94 years old. But his older brother died at 97. So, he might have lived a long life even if he smoked and drank everyday. Jack’s mother died at 89. His father at 58. He says he was addicted to sugar and junk food as a kid, so he certainly didn’t grow up on a perfect diet or anything.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_LaLanne
Who knows, though, it may not be genetics that let these people do that. Have you ever seen a gene? I mean, it is the hottest debate recently about obesity. That’s what most doctors are saying about people who eat a lot (of western food) and happen to be larger then people who eat a lot (of western food). I mean – environmental factors and specifically what someone is eating and even a small thing effecting their appetite could be significant.
I just think in this case if it’s something as simple as keeping muscle or not being able to maintain it should be looked at as more then just genes. After all – Matt did experience a *harder* time getting muscle mass on his previous diet then on this one. If diet did not effect him in this area, then we should assume genes could be more of a possibility.
But really, we all shouldn’t be that different for basic traits – like straight teeth – if on a good diet; also the fact that there are many people that have had diseases and other small problems all fixable by the way they eat. It’s kind of like being more prone to getting cavities then someone else (which could also be more based on diet vs. genes since no one really eats the exact same thing) – no matter what, they should have the ability to have straight, white, strong teeth. I think no matter what, everyone should be able to know not to store fat if it obviously causes problems – and have muscle, which is important to most living things. If you burn muscle over fat, there must be a link to your diet. And man, diet could not be a more complex word.
so about the artificial sweetner debate…is stevia really a bad substitute for plain white sugar? my husband uses about 12-17 drops in his drinks like tea or coffee or lemonade when before he would use practically tablespoons of sugar, which seems really bad. i know the ideal is to get off of sugar entirely, but some people just won’t. i figured stevia was the least evil of them all and it is nice to have a glass of say lemonade and not have to add cupfuls of sugar to make it tolerable!
Matt,
The Jan K dietary approach and the Dr. Schwarzbein dietary approach are very different, and yet you really sing the praises of both. In fact the way you praise Dr. Schwarzbein it sounds like you want HER to be your girlfriend :-) (Can’t say I blame you).
But seriously, which is it, Dr. K or Dr. S or might you need a post putting this all in perspective?
First off, I do look at Dr. S and Dr. K as having some striking similarities. Dr. S says to eat 30g of carbs per meal and fill up on protein and fat without really measuring. She puts an extra emphasis on fats being good for you. Because I was overly enthusiastic about fats on her program, I went crazy with them to the point that I was eating at least 70% of my calories as fat. I’d imagine a lot of others on her diet are more reluctant, and have a totally different experience.
Dr. K is lower in carbs and protein and even higher in fat. I think that is superior to Schwarzbein if one is hesitant about fats and steers themselves more towards protein. A high protein low carb diet is too low in calories and as Broda Barnes mentions, is well-known to exacerbate hypothyroidism and is in no way a solution for someone looking to lose weight, improve health, etc.
I would definitely choose Dr. S over Dr. K as a lover. Ha!
Okay, what next:
Stevia. It is better than white sugar most likely. Neither would be the best option without a doubt.
Bodybuilding:
Yes, a high protein, high-starch diet is best for building, period. That is the ultimate high-insulin diet, and insulin is the storage hormone for both muscle and fat. I would call the sumo diet very low fat by percentage of calories. But that doesn’t mean sumos are insulin-resistant, which is a different ballgame altogether. Sumos are much healthier than a typical overweight person because they aren’t insulin resistant. A low-sugar diet has a hard time creating such a state.
Constitution is definitely a better term than genetics:
Constitution is incredibly important. Accumulated omega 6 is hereditary. If mom has high insulin, baby will have high insulin, low thyroid, overactive adrenals, etc. irrespective of genes. Development is affected by the intrauterine environment.
If mom has all kinds of antibodies formed to foods she’s allergic to, and has hyperallergenicity in general, so will junior.
Toxins that disrupt immune and endocrine function are part of the constitution but have nothing to do with genetics.
The bacterial environment/bacterial profiles are passed from mother to child irrespective of genes.
So yes, your constitution is incredibly important. AS important, or more important, than what you do and eat. However, what you do and eat is the greatest tool you have to overcome some of these inadequecies and imbalances, and it is all relative. That’s Price’s biggest discovery – that a parent’s imperfect diet caused the next generation to be a mess, weakened, hypersensitive, and have a higher propensity to develop all forms of illness.
Pooti,
I’ve known people who have overcome type II on a diet of fresh fruits and vegetables exclusively. Fuhrman and Terry Shintani (recommends a program similar to macrobiotics), both strong proponents of veganism swear to have excellent results with lowering the weight and overocoming many health problems, type II diabetes certainly being one of them.
I do believe there are more tools out there than just “don’t eat carbs” for an overweight diabetic or prediabetic.
Of course J.E. Crewe (Mayo clinic co-founder) treated such conditions with a milk-only diet.
Low-level thyroid hormone supplementation could be helpful.
Vonderplanitz treats diabetes with a cup of raw honey per day!
VLC can be very therapeutic, and could be of great help to you. But if it ain’t working after several months or a year, keep it in the back of your mind that there are other viable techniques and strategies. That’s all I’m saying.
And before ya’ll dog on Kwasniewski’s body, remember that mf’er turns 72 this year. I’d say he’s lookin’ pretty hot when grading on that curve. He’s got more hair than I do and hasn’t even gone gray yet.
Matt:
“Vonderplanitz treats diabetes with a cup of raw honey per day!”
But combined with massive amounts of raw meat, raw eggs, unsalted raw butter, raw cream, raw milk, raw cheese made at 104F or less, raw green juices, etc. Ray Peat suggests a similar diet: milk and orange juice, high-SFAs, low-PUFAs, high sugar, little or no starch (esp whole grains). All of these ideas have the potential to heal disease, provided they REPLACE the normal foods, as opposed to being added to a deficient and toxic diet.
“And before ya’ll dog on Kwasniewski’s body, remember that mf’er turns 72 this year. I’d say he’s lookin’ pretty hot when grading on that curve. He’s got more hair than I do and hasn’t even gone gray yet.”
That could be a wig for all we know. His muscle mass is nothing like yours. He is squat and soft and claims to be eating a diet nearly the same as you: high-fat, low-protein, lower carbs, high-starches, low-sugar, organs, bone broths, no PUFA oils, etc. His preferred carb: potatoes. He says fruits and vegetables are animal fodder and fiber is rubbish.
Matt: “Dr. S[chwarzbein] says to eat 30g of carbs per meal and fill up on protein and fat without really measuring.”
But don’t you think it’s stupid to put a number on things and measure them like that? I mean, doesn’t it make more sense to just alternate between zero-carb and zero-fat from meal to meal at irregular intervals and not worry about nubmers? I think that’s one good point Charles has made. Dieters count things. You should not have to count anything. You should simply limit variety or cycle your diet like zero-carb during the week and zero fat (fruits, vegetables, potatoes, truly raw honey, maple syrup, and tapioca) on the weekends). You shouldn’t need slide rules and calculators to determine what you are going to eat. It should be all or nothing. That way the body can adapt more, IMO. When you don’t MIX fats and carbs you eliminate all foods that have the potential of making you fat. Pizza, doughnuts, cheeseburgers, cookies, cake, pie, ice cream, potato chips, fries, or other atrocities.
I disagree with you that a person with a healthy metabolism should be able to eat carbs and fats and proteins and not gain fat. Only a manual laborer or high-level athlete (like Michael Phelps) can do so, because it is too easy to over-eat when high-carb and high-fat are mixed, esp at the same time as high-protein. Even the healthiest person eating unrefined foods will get fat on a high-everything diet.
Michael: “But seriously, which is it, Dr. K or Dr. S or might you need a post putting this all in perspective?”
You can be healthy on many diets, given you have a minimum of nutrients and you don’t eat toxic foods (refined sugar or HFCS, crystal fructose, and PUFA oils). The fallacy of modern nutrition is that people say fructose is bad, but they’re doing a study of refined fructose – not really raw honey, for example. That’s a lie, like Colin Campbell saying “animal protein causes cancer” when he fed rats processed casein, sucrose, corn starch, and corn oil as their only foods (plus massive supplements, of course). All he really proved was that the high-protein HE fed was bad, and only in the context of the sugar, corn starch, and corn oil.
If he had used coconut oil instead, the results WOULD be different. If he used really raw honey instead of sugar, the results WOULD be different. Change your variables and the game changes. You see lots of articles claiming that fructose is evil. I don’t buy that for a minute. PROCESSED / REFINED fructose maybe evil. But something like really raw honey is not in the same universe. Of course not everyone can tolerate honey, but that’s true of all foods. It doesn’t mean that food is bad if one person has a problem with it. It’s their problem.
There is no way to answer whether Jan K. or Diana Schwarzbein is best. I think a lot of the claims in Schwarzbein’s book are garbage, like saying aged cheese is damaged food, alcohol is toxic, etc. It is only toxic in the context of certain types of alcohol, certain diets, etc. I am sure alcohol could be healthy, or at least neutral, for some people. (Potato vodka is better than grain vodka if all other factors are equal, IMO.) Any food can be healthy in the right dose.
“Poisoning is a consequence of quantity, not substance. “Toxic” simply means too much.” (Paracelcus.)
Bruce K:
“”And before ya’ll dog on Kwasniewski’s body, remember that mf’er turns 72 this year. I’d say he’s lookin’ pretty hot when grading on that curve. He’s got more hair than I do and hasn’t even gone gray yet.”
That could be a wig for all we know. “
It IS a wig! Good guess, Bruce.
So much for that theory, huh, Matt? Hair is an interesting subject, because I see lots of diet gurus who either have gray hair (Gregory Ellis & MIchael Eades), or they have thinning hair (Aajonus). What causes hair loss and graying hair, Matt? Most men seem to lose hair or lose color or both. Same with women. The old people in Kitava don't have hair loss, but they do have white hair. It would seem to me that animal foods cause gray hair, esp cooked. But what causes hair loss, since AV is losing hair on top of his head? I would guess plant toxins maybe.
Chloe: “Perhaps when we’re babies, the milk that is first despatched is high in carbs as to give us kind of a kick for the upcoming milk after that which is high in fat – so we’ll eat a lot and eat enough to grow? (there’s two different milks…”
The figures I gave were for mature human milk. Whole cow’s milk is 21% protein by calories. Human milk is 6%. Cow milk has 3.5 x more calcium than human milk, too. So, I don’t buy the idea that we need to eat more calcium than mother’s milk will provide to growing babies. In fact, the needs for adults are probably so small a person could avoid calcium deficiency on a pure meat diet, like Charles – without bone broths and such things.
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts/dairy-and-egg-products/95/2
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts/dairy-and-egg-products/69/2
And of course, skim milk has even higher protein and calcium content by weight or calories than human milk does.
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts/dairy-and-egg-products/77/2
So, it’s a bit odd that the WAPF claims you need raw cow’s milk or bone broth to have healthy bones, given that the milk from humans is deficient by that notion, having 70-75% less calcium. It’s also a bit odd to say people need cod liver oil for Vitamin D. What did people do before they had that this concoction? They ate food with widely varying amounts of such vitamins and as long as they didn’t eat modern garbage they were fine.
Matt: “Yes, a high protein, high-starch diet is best for building, period. That is the ultimate high-insulin diet, and insulin is the storage hormone for both muscle and fat. I would call the sumo diet very low fat by percentage of calories.”
The sumo eat 2-3 times more fat than the regular Japanese people, but they eat an extreme predominance of carbs, like 8-20 times more carbs than fats. By contrast, the ordinary Japanese diet contains 7 x more carbs than fats. The sumos also eat 2-6 times more carbs than protein, while ordinary Japanese eat 4 times more carbs than protein. Very few Japanese are fat, while eating their traditional diet that averages 359g of carbs a day – or 63% of their total calorie intake. Also keep in mind that the upper level sumos eat more protein and fat than the lower level and are more muscular and less fat.
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/reprint/29/10/1167.pdf
As it pertains to Schwarzbein, I think there is therapeutic benefit in getting very close to the same content of carbohydrates at every meal. I think this provides enough hormonal regularity for the body to rebalance itself in ways that it cannot otherwise.
No, we shouldn’t have to count our quantities, but doing so can have a medicinal application and is something we all should at least be open to as a potential strategy.
I don’t care what you guys say about Kwasniewski. He is one sexy beast!
I don’t know about the hair thing. It is ironic that most health gurus do have some serious baldness issues – Mercola, Weil, Schultz, Bikram, and many more. One thing I can say is that I had gray hair appearing as early as age 20. I’ll be 31 in a month and I can’t find a single gray hair on my scalp. My hair started thinning at 27 though, way ahead of the pace of my father and half-brother. I attributed much of this to my starvation escapade which tanked my thyroid and resulted in falling hair shortly thereafter.
I do agree that there are any number of diets humans can flourish on as long as they don’t include crap. Nutrient content doesn’t appear to be that important as long as you’re hitting reasonable minimums. This belief is probably what gives me such flexibility in how I look at food.
“I don’t know about the hair thing. It is ironic that most health gurus do have some serious baldness issues – Mercola, Weil, Schultz, Bikram, and many more.”
Don’t ignore Joel Fuhrman. He has lost a lot of hair just like Mercola and AV. It seems like plant-heavy diets are causing hair loss. Price noted the lack of hair loss with age in the Aborigine and it is also clear in the old Kitavans. But they still had gray or white hair. Maybe it’s a trade-off. AV has kept his hair color, overall, but it’s thinning on top and he has a little gray on the sides. Mercola has his color, but he’s lost a lot more hair than AV. Fuhrman has a bald spot on top and receding hairline very much like Aajonus. It is ironic, because they are eating totally different diets.
http://www.diseaseproof.com/Joel-Shira-chat.JPG
Interesting. Are you sure that’s Fuhrman? I thought it was Jay Cutler when I first saw the profile of that manly physique. Ha, ha.
So you think AV might be losing hair because of his green juices? Is that what you suspect?
“Are you sure that’s Fuhrman?”
Disease-proof is Fuhrman’s website or it is espousing his diet, so yeah. Here’s a picture from his main website.
http://www.drfuhrman.com/ask/default.aspx
Matt,
In regard to the issue of measuring macronutrient rations, I see an interesting (“180 degree”) contrast between different gurus. Some such as Schwarzbein, Sears and JK recommend great attention to such ratios – eat the same ratio every day at the same time – develop an entirely predictable patern of energy intake as a way to heal a damaged metabolism. Others in the intermittent fasting crowd, in particular Art Devany, recommend the opposite approach – changing things up constantly (within reasonable boudaries) – overeating one day, undereating the next. Exercising like crazy one week, relaxing the next. All in an unpredictable chaotic fashion that they claim is more likely to emulate the random demands of a natural environment and allow healing. Devany points to evidence that a brain with too regular brain waves has an epileptic seizure – that the heart with too a regular heart beat has a heart attack, and that the steady “drip drip” “command and control” regulation of a zone style diet is the enemy not the cure. DeVany’s ideas are based on his knowledge of economics and complex systems. I’m curious whether anyone is familiar with these ideas and what they think of them. Thanks.
Maybe instinct is important. If you feel like eating a lot one day, you’ll probably eat a more then you would another day if you weren’t as hungry. Could be people don’t listen to themselves enouuugh? Besides, What does “too regular” of anything really mean, and is it really common or possible?
MWC,
The DeVany crowd would agree that instinct is important and that you should listen to your body. Little kids and animals gorge when they are hungry, then maybe go long periods without eating. This would be a violation of the Shwarzbein program, who advises to “gag it down” to keep with the program even if you aren’t that hungry. Matt I know you have quoted the gag it down line with approval and I wonder what your thoughts are relative to the above.
-Todd
Well, maybe hair loss hasn’t a lot to do with diet. Not necessarily at least. I know a lot of people with full hair and a crappy diet. They usually have several health issues but no hair problems. I don’t think diet explains and/or cures everything.
There could always be some issue out there that seems like diet doesn’t cause it – the hair thing. I mean, considering thinning of hair and the color of it has been shown to be effected by diet, should indicate that if your hair is thinning or turning a different color, you could be doing something to cause that specifically or not be doing something. I would certainly be interested in a book that wrote about hair and food; it’s not a huge subject it seems. I mean, look at all of what Price accomplished just by being a dentist and observing teeth of different cultures.
“As it pertains to Schwarzbein, I think there is therapeutic benefit in getting very close to the same content of carbohydrates at every meal. I think this provides enough hormonal regularity for the body to rebalance itself in ways that it cannot otherwise.”
I just think these diets by Schwarzbein, Sears, and Kwasniewski are ridiculous. A person doesn’t need the same energy each day or each meal. Art De Vany’s ideas of randomness and chaos makes sense. Change is often the only way to solve problems. Take a break from the routine. Switching things up is well-known to break stalls, like having a cheat day or weekend. I’ve improved my blood sugar control greatly, by pushing myself like you.
Ray Peat has exactly the same view that you do. “The body will adapt to demands that are placed on it.” If you eat milk and orange juice, your body will become better at utilizing carbs. There is no healing on low-carb or zero-carbs. And nobody says there will be. Ask Charles, he will say that you will be a diabetic forever. You can never heal. That’s not true, IMO. There are ways to heal. They begin with facing the problems head-on.
Can’t digest meat? Eat nothing but meat. Can’t handle carbs? Eat all-carbs, zero fat, and minimal protein. The idea that the body is stuck with disease and that it’s irreversible is rubbish. Many have reversed disease, it’s reality that the body is infinitely adaptable.
Healing is possible. Anybody who says it isn’t – like Charles – should be ignored and dismissed as a defeatist.
“So you think AV might be losing hair because of his green juices? Is that what you suspect?”
Well, that’s one thing that Mercola, AV, and Fuhrman all have in common. They all eat lots of raw vegetables and/or juices derived from them. I do think that green vegetable juices are toxic. There may be good for short-term healing, but it’s so unnatural to eat large amounts of plants (esp juices which concentrate the toxins along with the nutrients). Some people I know can’t eat raw carrot or beet juices without problems, whereas cooked carrots and beets cause no problems. Maybe it is better to eat vegetable broths and avoid the vegetables. We need to think outside the box. Question Everything.
Yeah Bruce, those were some good points. I agree to do just that, to make the body adapt, you face the things head on. How’s it going to know what a carb is if you avoid them all your life? I mean I’m doing what you’re thinking right now – with meat and fat. Eating a lot of it and so I will adjust to it.
I mean Matt went from low to high carb and didn’t notice a huge change in weight. I think that’s pretty stabilizing and amazing. As long as this food is generally natural. I agree we should be able to adapt to whatever, since we are omnivores, it totally makes sense. That’s how we people got dispersed all over the world, for their ability to adapt. Perhaps it is hard to say if anyone could have a less scheduled diet work for them…cause they’ve never really tested it! (unless the guy your talking about has in some way or viewed it, obviously-or there’s studies I don’t know of). But seriously – it should all be based on how you feel one day. I mean, unless you’re trying to speed up your metabolism by eating more, that is. But maybe people don’t eat as much as they want to or could sometimes.
The hair thing and the green juices I also agree with – the greens absorbed directly can be a huge benefit to begin with, but maybe in the long run they could begin to show side effects. Then again, I read the “green for life” book and victoria (the lady who wrote it) said her husband’s hair started growing in black again after he added green smoothies and things to his diet. This was also the beginning of when he was drinking it though. But he also was a “meat and potatoes” guy – so maybe the addition of it was different from JUST vegetables/fruit – like some vegan fellows.
Maybe those guys aren’t happy with their vegetable meals and they loose hair over it, hahaha
No but really; aren’t different organs/attatchments connected to hair loss…obviously stress by the adrenal glands but what else?
I agree with you studs about chaos from a logical standpoint. However,experientially, I’ve found the Schwarzbein, Sears, Kwaz stuff to be very therapeutic. I lessened asthma and allergies, improved digestion, reconstituted my body to include more muscle and less fat “without spending hours at the gym,” was in a stable mood every day for months – not exaggerating, etc. on a high-fat Schwarzbein program (which is basically like Kwaz). Basically, every single claim made by Schwarzbein on her book, I had those exact results within 3 months of following that program. So I can’t, and could never say, that “it’s ridiculous.”
But that doesn’t mean that I discredit everything that’s not in complete agreement. Diet and lifestyle is the most powerful medicine there is, and there are many forms of it. I assure you that dietary/lifestyle strategy to regulate hormones within a certain framework IS a viable form of therapy. That doesn’t make it THE form of therapy.
And yeah, F green juices. Although Jack Lalanne’s mantra is, “if it tastes good, spit it out,” I tend to reside on the other side of that fence. Green juice is bitter, unappealing, and hard on the stomach.
That’s why you’re the best. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. I knew you were different the first day I read your blog. Unlike other people that basically say “my way is the only way” you see the potential healing of many approaches. As others say you have to sip cod liver oil by the shot glass and sunbathe naked for eight months a year, you realize that we don’t need much nutrients if we avoid or minimize toxic foods. The human body can adapt to extremes and grow stronger as a result. Some people refuse to even admit that you could lose weight (fat) without limiting carbs. That’s ridiculous. A lot of people eating low-fat diets have very low body-fats and muscular bodies. I bet Jay Cutter doesn’t eat zero-carb or keto low-carb. He’s probably eating potatoes, bread, rice, pasta, maltodextrin, and/or other high-glycemic carbs. And check out this guy, the strongest man in the world (he eats dextrose and whey protein, very high-glycemic foods). He’s 300 pounds of solid muscle and probably eats a low-fat high-protein high-starch diet. Those are the most anabolic foods period. High-fat diets will not give you a body that will win Mr. Universe titles. Sorry.
http://www.worldsstrongestman.net/
“low-fat high-protein high-starch diet. Those are the most anabolic foods period.” “High-fat diets will not give you a body that will win Mr. Universe titles.”
uhum, err, yep, mmm that may or may not be right: but,stacking 5 or 6 anabolic steroids, not to mention synthetic growth hormone and injectable insulin – yep, that may also play some part.
“I lessened asthma and allergies, improved digestion, reconstituted my body to include more muscle and less fat “without spending hours at the gym,” was in a stable mood every day for months – not exaggerating, etc. on a high-fat Schwarzbein program (which is basically like Kwaz).”
The amount of muscle a person can build without exercise is genetic IMO. Others eating Schwarzbein or JK are skinny and puny looking. Not everybody eating like that looks like you and that’s a simple fact. How tall are you, Matt? You said you weigh about 170. But in one of your old articles, I think you said you were much heavier and still lean. Aajonus is like 5’8″ and says he weighs around 180, but he doesn’t look overweight. That is something I think is worth pursuing – a dense and heavy body without being big.
I’m smaller and more compact than guys I see who are the same height and weight I am. Their bodies are soft and round with less muscle mass, less bone density, and less hydration. When you’re eating well, you should be heavier than you look, due to having better composition, hydration, and density than normal people.
“uhum, err, yep, mmm that may or may not be right: but,stacking 5 or 6 anabolic steroids, not to mention synthetic growth hormone and injectable insulin – yep, that may also play some part.”
Yeah, but he was probably more muscular than average guys to start with. He did not start with a puny 90 pound physique and gain 200 lbs of muscle. Most of the great body-builders have eaten low-fat, high-protein, high-starch diets. There’s no truth to saying that “carbs make you fat.” The Japanese eat 360g of carbs on average and most young women weigh like 110 lbs (50 kg). They are nowhere near as fat as Americans. High-fat diet PLUS high- carb and high-protein is what has been proven to make most people fat. In short, lots of fast food and junk food, beer, potato chips, pizza, cookies, ice cream, cake, pie, doughnuts, fries, and heavily buttered starches.
I trust schwarzbein must know a lot if you really experienced all of what she was talking about. That is remarkable, since there’s a lot of diets out there where people just “fail” because they blame it on themselves. And the books and diets blame it on them, “no, it must be your will power”. If diets need will power, fuck em :)
I’m sure the eskimos weren’t like, “ok only a little seal blubber today. Just one little bite. Then I’ve got to go run up and down the tundra for cardio. yes. I feel great, but I am crying on the inside”
cha know? trapped in a cycle of having to do something to be happy – or the illusion of happy by appearance
I totally agree there are tons of different diets out there..I’m way past believing in one thing and an overexposure to raw food boards helped me realize that. As well as a heavy dose of reading from this blog, and general thinking in my head that people evolved for a reason. But seriously, no one in those boards wants to talk one thing about possibilities of not being raw vegan. And that’s great for people to “know” they’ve got THE diet to live on, as long as their happy; but if you’re going to give someone who’s really in trouble with theirselves advice, it really is kind of sad to read some of the advice people give. And to see how people will just follow to follow, to loose weight, most likely, and loose too much (some dudes on a board I used to talk with only ate like 500-1000 calories a day – they were tired fatigued and complained a lot and were wondering why – and people’s answers were that it was detox; ayai yai). It’s so obvious many of those people say they want to be “healthy” but really just want to be thin – or care mostly just for their appearance (or else they wouldn’t be struggling to be happy on a huge restriction of foods – some are happy with it – some arent). And don’t get me wrong, some people really do get helped from the boards..or think they do for a reason that could otherwise be a different reason (haha..what?) It’s the same for low carb, atkins, zero carb boards and what have you. This is totally general – not everyone’s like that. Like we all want to look good – but feeling is important too – an anorexic person wants to look good but is obsessive about appearance – and that’s just what I notice sometimes about some of these people.
See that’s why I’m so excited about your site, Matt, because people are going to flock there and the community will be totally open for discussion on ANY diet without (hopefully) anyone being ridiculed and mocked or called some kind of impurist for eating salt or something, haha. Of course not all blogs are so extreme, but I mean, mostly there’s pretty narrow ones out there.
At least Jack Lalanne admits the food he eats really does taste like ass, unlike people who say they like the taste over fat or something – or who skip over the taste topic completely and just say “it’s good for you eat it”. Or figure their taste buds adjust because they were over stimulated (which I think maybe it’s because their body is starving and hungry for anything? That’s certainly what Dr. Graham says, “this should taste good if you’re truly hungry” aka starving – willing to eat a squirrel carcus (well, vegetable soup in his case)
Bruce, I think just because bodybuilders eat protein and starch doesn’t mean fat can’t build muscle or be the best at maintaining it. You also had said genes had to do with bodybuilders – so now you’re saying it is diet? But just look at every mammals milk – I don’t think there’s any milk out there that’s higher in protein then fat or carbs. Human milk is certainly only got 1.1 grams of protein in 100 mL of the stuff – compared to 4 g of fat – 7g carbs. It’s to grow, and with growing, is muscle generation. If we needed more protein to grow muscle, it would be obvious in the milk of every mammal, I would think. I mean, have you yourself tried eating a lot of fat to see the results? It’s not entirely crazy. Especially since we’ve got a guy here telling us what he experienced from doing it.
Plus, Mr. Universe is also most likely not the healthiest person on earth just because he can bench press 700 pounds or what have you. Has this dude tried eating these ways? How will we ever know if it’s crazy to eat all fat if there’s generally been one diet for bodybuilders since the sport began. (high protein, low fat) But there’s highly efficient natives out there eating large amounts of fats with the muscle gain they need. No, you won’t blow up like arnold schwarzenegger if you eat a large percentage of calories from fat (and don’t do heavy lifting) – but perhaps you will not have to work as hard as you normally would in order to gain muscle and maintain it.
I agree about this blog though. I’ve been looking so hard on the internet for the longest time trying to find a website that addresses all the theories of diet I had heard about. I found beyondveg.com, then I found THIS. And damn, so glad someone actually is open minded, really, open minded about diet as I intend to be.
chlOe, I will wager any amount of money that nobody eating strict zero-carb ever wins Boston Marathon, IronMan triathlon, Tour de France, 8 Olympic gold medals, a perfect score in Mr. Universe, Strongest Man in the World, or any similar titles. Low-carb gurus like to blame insulin for all the world’s problems, but you cannot live without insulin. And though insulin can make you fat, it is also required to build muscle, heal, etc. How you eat and exercise will determine whether you gain mostly fat or mostly muscle. Protein can stimulate some insulin, but fat does not stimulate much at all, and cutting carbs will generally limit muscle development. That’s why no top athlete or bodybuilder eats zero-carb or ketogenic low-carb. If they eat low-carb diets, you can be sure they are loading carbs 1-2 days per week at minimum, if not every single day post work-out. Zero-carb is a kind of dietary limbo, where you won’t gain weight, even if you overeat massively. It’s the total opposite of an anabolic diet.
Matt Stone said…
“First off, I do look at Dr. S and Dr. K as having some striking similarities. Dr. S says to eat 30g of carbs per meal and fill up on protein and fat without really measuring. She puts an extra emphasis on fats being good for you. Because I was overly enthusiastic about fats on her program, I went crazy with them to the point that I was eating at least 70% of my calories as fat. I’d imagine a lot of others on her diet are more reluctant, and have a totally different experience.”
Ahhh, thanks for that clarification. I would say that is a fairly low carb approach but in her interview that you linked Dr. S goes out of her way to say that she is not a part of the low carb movement (although in another part of the interview she implies that she is).
Amadeus says:
WOW Matt, what hapenned to your blog all of a sudden SO many posts WOW again ( AND you still print 180 white on black >> so very 1980's…
Happy New Year anyways…
Awww, thanks Chloe. I’ll let you know if I come out with a “get pumped like Arnold” ebook or something. I do hope to be a unifier of dietary theory. Just yesterday I left a comment somewhere saying, “diet and lifestyle is the most powerful form of medicine, and there are many, many different treatments and strategies.”
Zero carb definitely isn’t anabolic. Roger that cap’n Bruce. Of course, anabolism is associated with a lack of longevity – so we can’t necessarily condemn a low-anabolic diet (like the Okinawans eat), as if it is atrocious.
Schwarzbein is definitely low carb. I think what she really wanted to say was, “I’m not a carb-phobe or carb hater. I support a controlled-carbohydrate diet, not an eat-as-few-carbs as possible diet.”
Yes, I’m going with the white on black, and this blog is very reminiscent of blogs back in the 80’s. It seems like every blog back then was white on black – like Danson on Goldberg (aka Ted on Whoopi).
Matt: “Zero carb definitely isn’t anabolic… Of course, anabolism is associated with a lack of longevity – so we can’t necessarily condemn a low-anabolic diet (like the Okinawans eat), as if it is atrocious.”
Association doesn’t mean that one factor causes the other. Elite bodybuilders and athletes are well-known for their woeful eating habits, taking steroids and other drugs, eating refined proteins or carbs, over-training, playing injured, etc. All that tends to shorten life. However, the Eskimos were not known for living to 120 years in good health either. They seemed to age rapidly, according to Stefansson. For example, he said some of their women were grandmothers at 22, and they looked as old at 60 as Americans of his time at 80. Keep in mind that Americans were not eating as much sucrose, flour, and PUFAs back then. HFCS did not exist.
RE the Inuit consider also the harsh wind and other weather conditions beating down on their faces every time that they stepped outside. I can easily see that as an even more causative factor. The Bear claimed that Steffanson wrote (though I have not hunted down the reference myself) that the inuit looked very much aged on their faces but that their bodies under their parkas looked as young as anybodies.
The stress of the constant cold must have been insane; it is rather laborious
Wow,
Bruce K had a major fixation on Charles, doesn’t he?
Also, some of his comments about Good Calories, Bad Calories that he makes here and on his site causes me to wonder if he ever read it…
Oops, I meant “has” not “had”.
Oh, and by the way, it is indeed possible to build significant muscle on a zero-carb diet. Serge Nubret, a bodybuilder from the 70’s-80’s that is still active today and posts regularly in his own forums in such sites as bodybuilding.com has a diet that he calls the “white death” diet. He recommends it as a way lose fat rapidly while retaining, or even gaining, muscle.
The “white death” guidelines are zero-carbs and no salt; I think there is a restriction on milk, also. There other guideline is to eat as much as you can.
I actually tried this diet for a month ( I can’t remember about the milk because I rarely drink it, anyway). I did indeed lose weight fat rapidly, around 20 pounds of it in fact. I also put on about 3.5 pounds of muscle- which is fairly significant. It most be noted other people have observed the same thing, go to bodybuilding.com forums, the IFBB Pro Bodybuilding section, and then read the thread “Serge Nubret, Bodybuilding Legend.” I wish I could be more help than that, because it is huge thread and the info might be hard to find.
Now for a qualifier: I don’t think this way of eating will ever make a person as bulky as a protein and starch eating bodybuilder. However, I don’t understand why anybody would ever want to look like that to begin with- so much bulk is unappealing and cannot be healthy. Moreover, I do not think protein and starch is a healthy way of eating; there is evidence that it causes inflammation because of the increased insulin levels.
I also learned recently this dude named Vince Gironda made “protein shakes” based on heavy cream – in which one of his pupils was Arnold Schwarzenegger (who wasn’t scared of fat).
DML,
I agree completely. I did not lose muscle on zero carb even with minimal resistance training. I did have a noticeable reduction in inflammation as well, as jogging the day afterward did not cause any physical pain for the first time in months.
Several bodybuilders have used zero carb prior to competition to do exactly that – lose fat and water with the most minimal loss of muscle. They bulked up before on high carb, high-protein because it does stimulate more insulin and allows better building.
And building is not as healthy as not building, and certainly has no link to longevity. But some people love it – live for it, and shouldn’t obsess about what they’re doing to their life expectancy if they truly have a passion for it. That ain’t me though!
Anonymous: “RE the Inuit consider also the harsh wind and other weather conditions beating down on their faces every time that they stepped outside.”
That would not explain the fact that the women were grandmothers at 22 years old. Also, I am sure that Stefansson saw them without clothes since he lived with them for years. They aged faster than normal. Many explorers have noted this.
Here’s a quote from Samuel Hutton’s book “Health Conditions and Disease Incidence Among the Eskimos of Labrador” –
“Old age sets in at fifty and it’s signs are strongly marked at sixty. In the years beyond sixty, the Eskimo is aged and feeble. Comparatively few live beyond sixty and only a very few reach seventy. Those who live to such an age have spent a life of great activity, feeling on Eskimo foods and engaging in characterisically Eskimo pursuits… Careful records have been left by the missionaries for more than a hundred years. Perhaps the most striking of the peculiarities of the Eskimo constitution is the tendency to haemorrhage. Young and old alike are subject to nose bleeding and these sometimes continue for as much as three days and reduce the patient to a condition of collapse.”
These problems were probably due to the extremely high levels of omega-3 fats in their diet. Hemorrhages and nose bleeds are known side effects of omega-3 oils, as is accelerated aging.
DML: "Also, some of his comments about Good Calories, Bad Calories that he makes here and on his site causes me to wonder if he ever read it…"
Why don't you cite some of the errors if they exist? Making vague statements does not prove anything. Put up or shup up. I have read Taubes's book and like most of the low-carb zealots he confused refined and rancid carbs with fresh & unrefined. He presents evidence for one thing, then says that the other is bad too. His book is full of fallacies and omissions. I am waiting for proof that fresh and natural foods are capable of causing diseases of civilization. Apparently you prefer just parroting Gary and Charles.
"Oh, and by the way, it is indeed possible to build significant muscle on a zero-carb diet. Serge Nubret, a bodybuilder from the 70's-80's that is still active today and posts regularly in his own forums in such sites as bodybuilding.com has a diet that he calls the "white death" diet. He recommends it as a way lose fat rapidly while retaining, or even gaining, muscle."
He's probably also shooting up steroids, insulin, and growth hormone five times a day. Show us the real-world, all-natural athletes who have gotten the same muscle gains you claim he has gotten. Also show us proof that he eats a strict zero-carb diet (no carb loading on the weekends or after work-outs). I bet he is eating all kinds of carbs and just avoiding refined carbs like most body-builders.
Also, please provide a detailed outline of his "White Death Diet." I'm unable to confirm that it is a zero-carb diet. The references I saw on Body Building Forums just said that it eliminated white rice, flour, pasta, sugar, etc. That is a long way from a zero-carb diet.
Hey Bruce; I believe Stefansson thought the women Eskimos aged perhaps from a higher metabolism then normal. Other then that, I haven’t read much of his work, but I want to. I think there are many studies of eskimos..but I doubt all of them conclude the same thing considering there wasn’t just one said tribe. Some lived closer to different things, and there could be healthier eskimos then studied for shorter amounts of time then Stefansson had studied them. Different times count, too. I read somewhere eskimos lived to 90, other places they say 60s. It could definitely be mixed studies (studying different eskimo people) on both parts.
Matt: “I did not lose muscle on zero carb even with minimal resistance training.
Doing zero-carb for 30 days isn’t enough to conclude that it will preserve muscle long-term. Bear said he was out-of shape and didn’t like the way his body looked, until he started lifting weights at age 55. I doubt the ZC diet will give you an extremely muscular body, with or without exercise. Charles has said he will lose weight if he doesn’t exercise. Just like Bear who was “losing strength” until he started lifting weights. I believe their diets are flawed. The fact that you did not eat according to their dogma may be another factor in your favor.
http://www.thebear.org/essays1.html#anchor496162
“I did have a noticeable reduction in inflammation as well, as jogging the day afterward did not cause any physical pain for the first time in months.”
That’s because starches are inflammatory IMO. Natural sugars are better, based on my experience and many other people I’ve talked to. Here’s a post by someone that was eating Jan K’s diet with potatoes as their source of carbs. They noticed that the potatoes made them sleepy and messed up their digestion. They tried replacing the potatoes with bananas, carrots, and honey. Immediately, their digestion was improved and they stopped getting sleepy after meals. The person also noted that cutting out white rice improved fructose tolerance. He eats a potato every 2 or 3 days now and feels fine.
“My carb sources were mainly potatoes, which make me feel fatigue, when i eat more than 50-60g per meal. So i decided to give this simple sugar thing a try and changed to cooked carrots, bananas and honey. No fatigue anymore, more energy, better digestion…”
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AV-Skeptics/message/9470
And here’s another os his observations:
“I wanted to mention that i have had problems with fructose but this problem disapperead as i stopped eating white rice and my tolerance got even better as i limited my potatoe consumption. I have read Breaking the vicious cycle too and the theory seems to be correct for me.
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AV-Skeptics/message/9472
Bottom line: mixing sugars and starches is a very bad idea, IMO. You should eat one or the other. Many studies say that meat-and-starch diet is inflammatory. I think it would be best to eat something like fish, starch, and coconut oil. Not the typical meat and potatoes. Also I’d say potatoes are better than white rice nutritionally and otherwise.
Actually Bear works out as often as Matt did, just about. 2 days a week – and he sure doesn’t over do it; He had said he cycles 45 minutes and then weight trains certain muscles for 3 sets each – he noted to wait at least 2 to 3 days in between for the best muscle regeneration. So while Matt said his average was about an hour a week or was it twice for one hour? It’s not too far from what Bear does present day. And Charles – he’s like, an extreme exerciser isn’t he? I do question if muscle could degrade on any diet – but at slower rates as controlled by both exercise and diet, if need be.