In an ongoing conversation about what the best of the fitness and physique industry has to offer someone trying to lose body fat without sacrificing metabolic health, room needs to be made for Clarence Bass.
Bass is a famous ripped old dude, known for his multiple Over-40 Mr. America titles and maintenance of a very impressive physique all the way into his 70’s as shown in the photo (age 70).
Bass is an excellent example of someone who truly has achieved great leanness and has maintained that leanness his?entire life – and?done’so without excessive strain, hunger, and so on. His secret – a coarse, low-calorie density?whole foods diet of “coarse,” and more or less allowing the weight to come off naturally by eating to appetite of a whole foods diet (high-carb/low-fat relatively speaking) while doing a lot of exercise (but nothing?absurd – his exercise routine includes a couple of 20-minute aerobic intervals per week, a couple of leisurely hikes, and two full-body weightlifting sessions).
Although?Bass’should not be worshipped for his appearance of health – he has had many health problems recently including hip replacement,?osteoarthritis, and hypertriglyceridemia (I probably would too if I consumed soy milk, skim milk, and a peanut butter sandwich every day and fruit with every meal), clearly he has some secrets to share. His main secret, as you can read about in this online article, is simply eating a nutritious whole foods diet and being very?patient with the weight loss – losing no more than a couple of?pounds per month.
But as you can see from the compilation of quotes below, his philosophy is very much in line with that promoted by 180 and other 180 favorites like Jon Gabriel. In short, if you are hungry and deprived, impatient, and you don’t eat real, whole, nutritious food most of the time -?you will fail.
These are all themes of healing the metabolism, regaining lost health, and pursuing any health and physical appearance goal as lined out in this eBook?DIET RECOVERY.
Anyway, here’s some words of wisdom from this largemouth Bass (the dude writes almost as much as I do) from his most recent book, Great Expectations… Emphasis on certain lines by me:
pp. 36-37
??it’s not a good idea to limit the quantity of food you eat. Forcing yourself to stop eating before you’re full and satisfied doesn’t work very well. My observation is that few people can do it for long, and it’s not necessary anyway. As explained in my earlier books, eating a balanced diet of mostly whole foods will usually put your weight on a downward path. You don’t have to worry about restricting the amount you eat, because you become full before exceeding your calorie needs.
p. 87
?Some of you, especially new readers, may be wondering why a guy interested in lifetime leanness would eat calorie-dense nut butter. The answer is simple and lies at the very core of my diet philosophy. I like nut butter, and it’s a bad idea to deprive yourself of foods you enjoy? Diets based on denial are psychologically flawed? It’s human nature to crave what you can’t have, and craving usually spells doom for dieters. I don’t have cravings ? because I don’t deny myself foods such as nut butter.
p. 98
?My dieting philosophy is that I don’t believe in dieting. I don’t diet in the normal sense of the word, ever, even when peaking? Dieting conjures up thoughts of hunger and deprivation. Dieting doesn’t work, because it makes people uncomfortable and unhappy. I believe the key to permanent body fat control is eating satisfaction. There’s no need to eat foods you don’t like ? even when peaking ? and there’s no need to ever leave the table feeling hungry.
p. 104
?Severe dieting (or starvation) causes the body to produce more of the enzymes responsible for depositing fat. These fat-depositing enzymes create a tendency to get fat. Severe dieting also causes a slowdown in metabolism. This isn’t just a theory. It has happened to me on several occasions. Cutting calories too severely caused me to lose weight but gain fat. On one occasion, I lost 5.6 pounds, and my body fat went up. I lost a little over 6 pounds of muscle and gained a pound of fat. Not good!
p. 141
?? if you want to stay motivated for a lifetime, develop your own health and fitness program. Own it.
"First, become a low fat, high carbohydrate eater. Research has shown that a high fat-to- carbohydrate ratio leads one to consume more calories than needed. Eat all you want and it's likely to be too much. On the other hand, if you eat a diet high in carbohydrates (preferably complex and minimally processed) and low in fat, your appetite control mechanism will keep you from consuming too many calories. "If you enjoy eating, then low-fat eating is for you," says Ken Goodrick. Because you can eat more without eating too much.
Second, reduce cravings. One way to do that is never miss a meal. Eat three meals a day and two or three between-meal snacks. I routinely eat six times a day. (Ask my wife.) That stabilizes the blood sugar and keeps you from getting excessively hungry and losing control. Again, you have no desire to overeat.
Finally, as I said in Ripped 2, it's a good idea to splurge occasionally. If you crave a pizza or an ice cream sundae, don't deny yourself. That way you won't feel deprived, and you'll be happy to go back to your regular eating pattern the next day."
Seems to be in line with the set point lowering strategy we've been talking about.
Matt, can you please help me out?
I have a questions about fruit and fructose. I know fruit vs. starch is an ever going debate on your blog, so I want to sort through some of the confusion.
I, just like you mention, crash when I eat fruit. My teeth become very intolerant to heat/cold, they become very painful, I loose weight quickly when I eat fruit (I become "emaciated" even if I eat plenty of other foods foods next to the fruit), I get cold more easily, I get emotional quickly, quick to anger, get a short high in energy but then a crash, and, my entire focus starts revolving around food (like in my vegetarian days) – EVEN when I eat more than 3000 calories per day of normal food as well.
Is this normal?
Seriously?
Anyone else who has this bad experienced with fruit/fruit juices?
They do seem to clear up my sinuses and nose (my nose starts running instantly after I have orange juice, and I feel like I can breathe deeper), and fruits also seem to make my smelling sense much stronger, but that's about the only 2 positive effects I notice.
Can you please describe in detail, Matt, what physiological and psychological effects take place after you add fruit to the diet. Do you also get extreme mood swings, for example quick to anger, etc. Does your focus also get centered on FOOD and HEALTH a bit too much when eating fruit?
Do you have any positive effects from fruit/fruit juices, such as they clear up your sinuses, nose, or improve your smelling senses?
How quickly do your notice the positive/negative effects after you eat fruit?
Yeah, this guy looks really adorable. I love his hairstyle and the distinctive veins.
If only he didn't eat all that fruit and milk! Than he could truely experience all the benefits from a high whole-starch diet which is low in all those pesky vitamins and rich in valuable indigestible stuff!
Fruitskeptic: "They do seem to clear up my sinuses and nose (my nose starts running instantly after I have orange juice, and I feel like I can breathe deeper), and fruits also seem to make my smelling sense much stronger, but that's about the only 2 positive effects I notice."
I'm just the opposite. If I binge on fruit it triggers my seasonal allergies which are sinus based. Whenever I go completely fructose free for two or three days I experience that deep breathing sensation. I don't think a running nose is necessarily an improvement? Seems to me like a symptom of seasonal allergies going over the tipping point.
What I've had the best result with is eating a balanced diet avoiding fructose with plenty of saturated fat and cococunt oil. This allowed me to go from being totally reliant on allergy medications to going med free. I also was allergic I think to the warped proteins in low fat dairy and protein shake powder. Eliminating the "skim milk solids" "guar gum" and other garbage from my diet helped a lot.
I lived off pastuerized whole fat milk for six weeks and my allergies were fine. I've been eating more fruit lately as I've cut back on fat and have felt more allergy symptoms than I have in the past year, typically. I find it hard to eat a lot of starch without upping my fructose.
Is it just me, or does dude look just like Kelsey Grammar in that muscle photo?
FruitSkeptic,
When you had some fruits or juices how is your pulse pressure afterwards? Lower or higher than before?
"Although Bass should not be worshipped for his appearance of health"
Awww, Matt you're no fun. What if I WANT to worship this as Jannis says, "adorable" septagenarian baldy with the freakishly ripped body? You can't stop me. Bass is going in the 180 calendar.
Woah, Annabelle, you're right. Baby I hear the blues a callin, tossed salads and scrambled eggs.
Jenny, you have quite the type going on in that post… I'll let you find it. ;)
'Scuse me.. I meant typo, not type. Typos abound!
Matt,
I don't think Bass does 2 weightlifting sessions a week. He does 1 full body weightlifting session, 1 intense cardio session, and then walks for an hour everyday.
Kirk-
Nice quote-spelunking. Of course, you can't blame it on fat because if you keep increasing the fat to carbohydrate ratio you start to get the same effect as a high carb to fat ratio at some point.
That's why pleasure center activation is a more telling theory.
Fruit skeptic-
My fruit problems were the worst when I was on a low-carb diet, which most people agree to be typical – even fruitarians.
I wasn't quick to anger, but quick to major irrational emotional states – usually inolving elation or depression and sadness. It wasn't a right after the meal kind of phenomenon, and don't think in my case it was from blood sugar falling. My symptoms with eating too much fruit during the worst of my fruit intolerance was:
1) Joint pain, mostly in elbows and shoulders (this was always a chronic problem, starting at age 14, before going sugar-free)
2) Red cracking lips and skin easy to sunburn
3) Zits
4) Emotionality
5) Tooth pain
6) Sore, tender nose
7) Overly preoccupied with food (couldn't stop thinking about it)
8) Increase in body fat to muscle mass ratio
9) I have noticed a drop in body temperature, but don't remember feeling cold
10) Middle of the night hunger
11) Hungry within 2-3 hours after meals (mostly fantacizing about sweets within 1-2 hours of finishing a meal)
12) Bronchocontstriction immediately after eating fruit
13) Little sore bumps on tongue
14) Better athletic explosiveness with acute fruit consumption
15) Chronic laziness with chronic, daily fruit consumption
Anyway, that's a good list of all the weird stuff that fruit has done to me at some point. My ability to eat is has improved tremendously this year, something I attribute mostly to increasing my carbohydrate intake. PUFA restriction may also play a role in that improvement, but has been no miracle dietary change.
Totally like Kelsey Grammar.
JT-
He does a full weight routine once per week, and then an upper body weight routine with lower body cardio-type deal on the Glute/ham machine once per week. He does walk most days, and does longer walks/hikes of more than an hour on his non-gym days.
In the book he states that advanced bodybuilders may need only 1 day of weights per week, while less advanced weightlifters will need 2-3.
I'm baffled, Annabelle, please clue me in to my typo.
His exercise routine seems familiar…Oh yeah Tom Venuto recommends lots of cardio in addition to weight lifting with his leanness program. From Venuto, "the first thing I tell everyone who wants to loose fat is to start burning fat right away with cardio. Do up to an hour of cardio every day. (Six days a week.)
You're right, Jenny – I didn't even tell you what post it was in…
"… with plenty of saturated fat and cococunt oil."
Unfortunately Venuto recommends you do all this on a calorie deficit which is the chief difference here. That and Venuto's idea of "natural bodybuilding" is to suck down protein powder several times a day." His protein powder/oatmeal pancakes are a real joy I tell ya.
Matt,
I may need to re-read some of his stuff. He is definitely right that the less experienced trainee needs a lot more volume and frequency. A newbie does not have the same ability as the experienced trainee, so will need to spend more time to get results.
oh dear lord, Annabelle. I'm embarrased. We needs an edit button! Do you think that was a Freudian slip?
I just attended a fascinating lecture on fat metabolism by Dr. Len Kravitz and learned some really interesting stuff. Like how aerobic exercise increases the size and number of mitochondria (the fat-burning furnace of your cells) but resistance exercise does not. Also, that you can develop new fat cells at any point in your life… not just in your youth.
I say you embrace it, Jenny. It's actually inspired me to use coconut oil in whole new exciting ways.
Coconut oil is very perversatile. It can stimulate far more than just the metabolasm.
Annabelle,
I don't know where the term "aerobic exercise" comes from but it's not correct. The only training that's aerobic is no training. Every endurance exercise is anaerob to a certain degree. Whenever you go for a jog your body will produce at least some lactic acid. "Aerobic" exercise is only less anaerob than "anaerobic" exercise.
The increase in mitochondria is an approch of your body to compensate the exercise. But it's only temporary. As soon as you stop exercising on a regular basis they will disappear.
"Perversatile" is definitely my new favorite word.
Jannis,
I think the point of the lecture, since it was at a fitness conference, was that you find a form of mostly-aerobic activity that you really enjoy and try to do it regularly (in addition to some resistance training for its own unique benefits) – not just temporarily to burn fat and then stop.
There is more to exercise than just losing fat or gaining muscle. Strength, flexibility, coordination, stamina, metabolism, etc… A properly designed training program should address all of these needs. It is especially important as we age.
Slow cardio/aerobic exercise is not the most efficient way to burn fat. Look back at Matt's previous post with Rachel Cosgrove. I have experienced this as well.
I've been experimenting some with fruit/juices vs starch lately. In my experience, the more sucrose I have in my meal instead of starch, the more likely I'll get a noticeable blood-sugar crash some hours later. Like, my regular meal of potatoes/veggies/meat/butter never crashes my blood sugar, while a meal consisting of bananas, orange juice and whole-fat milk reliably gives me bad hypoglycemia with sweating and shaking within hours. Oddly, this reaction usually isn't accompanied by any hunger. That seems to indicate a hyperactive adrenergic response to the hypoglycemia, which is funny considering how sucrose is supposed to rest the adrenals. How do the Peat followers explain the tendency of sucrose, but not starch, to produce hypoglycemia in some?
Another thing I've been experimenting with is timing my meals further away from bed time. Some say that eating close to bedtime can disrupt ones sleep due to a blood sugar dip after onset of sleep, and since I was still having problems with waking up in the middle of the night I tried it.
In short, before I usually had my first meal at 5pm and my second at 1030pm and then I went to sleep like an hour later. Now I have my first meal at 2pm and the second at 7pm, so I don't go to bed until like five hours after my last meal for the day. Since I started doing this I haven't woken up in the middle of the night once, and I also fall asleep much quicker. I wasn't expecting this since I'm actually slightly hungry (or rather have an empty stomach feel) when I go to bed now, and I always thought it would be more difficult to fall asleep on an empty stomach, but no.
So not only am I sleeping much better, but also feel even less hungry than I used to during the day. Seems this is another thing that Jon Gabriel was right about. Plus, on nights when I go out, it's been very liberating to be able to discard the notion that I have to get something in my stomach before bedtime.
Anyway, my weight is now down to 176 pounds, so that's 25 pounds in 12 weeks. I still feel great and no hint of a surge in appetite or lethargy. I've never lost weight this effortlessly in my life, let alone without counting calories. Only problem I still do have is major chest/shoulder acne. Then again, my acne only disappeared after I had persisted with chronic low-calorie dieting for some time, and only re-appeared after my body temperature had risen to 98.2F some months into the HED, so I'm not sure whether I should take it's continued presence as some kind of health sign, like soaring testosterone levels or something?
jannis and Annabelle, it seems there is another way to increase mitochondria–enjoy your coconut oil…
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16807920?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
Collden,
I had the same problem as you when i had severe adrenal insufficiency. Peat's idea that sugars relax the adrenals makes perfect sense with your situation. Because it relaxes the adrenals, your cortisol levels drop lower and that is what causes the hypoglycemia. Healthy people don't have this problem, but if you already have low cortisol levels it will be a problem.
Cococunt oil. That one totally cracked me up. Nice!
About that calendar: When I first read about this, I thought this just would be another piece of 180 "fanfic", like that whole potato and Ireland thing. But then I realized that this probably would be very easy to pull of. Honestly, you certainly can make such a calender via some online service and it would probably still be dirt cheap. You could earn a few extra dollars with that, Matt. Do it!
JT, that's not too clear. Are you saying it's preferable to have higher fasting cortisol?
Why would someone with low cortisol experience hypoglycemia from sugar consumption. Blood glucose is increasing–or are we talking a delayed reaction?
JT, I have no other symptoms of adrenal insufficiency, I did the HED for nearly 8 months, far past the point where it seemed I could milk it for more health improvements, I'd also taken a break from intense exercise and caffeine addiction during that time and have been more mindful than ever of getting enough sleep, so I doubt my adrenals are still in bad shape. But what else would you prescribe if that was the case?
Collden,
What kind of starches do you usually eat? Are there any where you experience similar symptoms as when you consume fruit juice. Although I may not agree, Peat says that potassium is most responsible for insulin-like activity–fruit juices tend to have more potassium than starches.
Funny thing about your Bass post. I was just thinking today about asking him if he ever used steroids to get his build that he had when he was 40yr. Just seems too muscular for non-steroid use.
John,
Cortisol is involved in maintaining steady blood sugar levels. If Peat is right, and fruits and sugars relax the adrenals, then cortisol levels could get really low and induce hypoglycemia. I experienced this first hand several years ago before I knew I had low cortisol levels. Everytime i would eat fruit, especially in the morning, I would get really week and shaky, and my body temperature would drop.
Collden,
Just because you did HED for 8 months doesn't mean you healed all of your problems. I didn't heal mine until did the opposite. You can't really know what your problem is unless you get the proper tests done by a real professional, which is what i would advise. I would not do anything that aggravated the condition, if I had a food that made me sick i wouldn't eat it.
Collden,
I think JT's explanation is correct. Sugar decreases the amount of stress hormones (cortisol, adrenalin)in your blood stream. It seems that your stress hormones are very high. The stress hormones increase blood sugar because they promote gluconeogenesis and the mobilization of glycogen. But that's not a good thing in the long term.
In the best case thyroid is the dominant regulator of your blood sugar. But to produce sufficient amounts of T3 your liver needs enough sugar/glycogen in order to make it from T4 that comes from your thyroid. It's kind of a vicious cycle. If you don't have enough sugar in your blood/liver you can't produce enough T3 to keep your metabolic rate high. And that often results in hypoglycemia.
I had the same problem in the beginning. I binged on sugar whenever I felt that way. It got better and better and finally I needed only very little extra sugar to prevent hypogylcemia. If you do it for some time your liver and thyroid become more and more efficient in keeping your blood sugar and metabolic rate at a normal level.
How is your blood pressure after you consumed some fruit or sugar?
JT,
When you messure your pulse before and after breakfast you get a good impression how much cortisol your body produced during the night.
If it's lower after you ate something that means that you probably had high levels of stress hormones.
janis said, "If it's lower after you ate something that means that you probably had high levels of stress hormones." This is a good idea.
Mood-wise, I never feel any different no matter what I eat (except I'm sensitive to caffeine), but I definitely notice some negatives with processed sugars. When I eat Haagen Daz (or any all-natural ice cream), my digestion is bad, and I breakout; however, if my sugar intake is very high from bananas or other fruits, my digestion and skin is prefectly fine (I know it's not the cream or eggs because I eat them all the time anyway).
Yes, Bass freely admits to some steroidal "indiscretions" in his youth. Still, I've seen guys who look like him (at a younger age) who never sniffed a steroid. Generally they were athletic/iron geeks who ate a ton of food.
continued from last comment…
…however, I don't like to eat high sugar/carb in general since I feel much better overall when I eat lots of fat from cream and butter.
Jannis, My pulse is usually the same(around 80 bpm) before and after a fruit meal. The only thing a big fruit meal (or like lots of orange juice) seems to do, is to lower my blood pressure a bit. It also makes me urinate a lot, very clear urine.
Big meals of starch, fatty meals, salty meals, all raise my slightly after eating.
Matt, I also have the same experience with fruit causing laziness. If I eat too much fruit too often I become very lazy and unmotivated. MAN, there are lots of similarities between fruit and alcohol, anyone noticing?
Anyone else who notices that orange juice causes clearing of the sinuses and nose?
*Big meals of starch, fatty meals, salty meals, all raise my PULSE slightly after eating.
JT, what do you mean by the opposite of the HED? In some ways what I'm doing now is also the opposite of HED since I'm eating less/less frequently and exercising more. I'm dubious of the adrenal insufficiency diagnosis since I have no other symptoms of adrenal insufficiency.
john, most of my starch comes from potatoes, which I think contains just as much potassium as most fruit juices.
Jannis, I'm reasonably sure I cured whatever thyroid problem I had with the HED. I've been getting plenty of glucose in the form of starch for the past 10 months. Not sure how what you're saying about thyroid hormones relates to starch vs sucrose.
BTW, Peatists, do you know of any healthy traditional populations that have a high habitual intake of fruits/sucrose?
subscribing :o)
Hey JT,
When you say severe low carbing, do you include approaches where you eat one higher carb meal a day or a couple over the course of several days? I'm thinking of switching my approach and eating lower carb during the day at work (10-12 hour desk job) to keep energy up and then have some taters and rice at night at home for dinner. This would probably be a couple of potatoes or cups of rice. Do you see anything wrong with this?
Steroids burn off fat in a way a normal person does not.
Bass has been on steroids for decades.
What he says can apply to someone not on steroids.
subscribing
Fruit Skeptic,
Than it is likely that your pulse rate is partly determined by high stress hormones. Low blood pressure indicates a low level of stress hormones. If sugar lowers the blood pressure that means that it relaxes the adrenals.
The cells of hypotyhroid people tend to take up a lot of water rather than to metabolize it. So if you are hypo you won't lose much water. For every 1000 calories about 1 liter of water is metabolized. So, not feeling thirsty throughout the day is also a sign of hypo.
collden,
I don't think that the HED is a failsafe way to cure thyroid problems. When I was hypo I could eat all the starch in the world and would get no benefits from it.
Judging by your symptoms I think that you are (slightly) hypothyroid. Otherwise you wouldn't have so high levels of the stress hormones. Acne is also a sign of hypo
Collden, I'm not a "Peatist," but I can say that there probably isn't (at least as high as most "Peatists" consume). The highest I can think of is perhaps the Yanomami/Yanomamo, but their diet composition is arguable depending on the source (http://www.cleber.com.br/evan.html and wikipedia vs. the book "Cannibals and Kings"). Also, they're not a good example of great health.
Kitavans are probably near the top too, but again, sugar/fruit intake is nowhere near as high as Peat recommends–not sure what this really tells us though. Maybe we should factor in the proportion of fruit vs starch h-g cultures consume, which is much more starch…if their fruit supply is in excess, I think this tells us a lot…
janis, you said,
"Acne is also a sign of hypo." Did you hear this from Peat? He has said that acne is a result of an imbalance between thyroid and vitamin A, which is a bad explanation because they seem to be closely connected** (see below). Using Peat's explanation, one could deduce that acne is theoretically always a vitamin A deficiency*…
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/86/4/1040
*this may or may not be true, but this is what Peat is implying, even if he doesn't know it
**unfortunately t3 data isn't available
No, I think Broda Barnes said that.
Vitamin A is in fact very helpful for acne patients. The most common drug that is used to treat severe acne is called roacutan or ciscutan. It's concentrated Vitamin A. Vitamin A regulates the activity of the skin glands and regulates sex hormon synthesis.
I don't see why Peat's explanation is bad. As my metabolic rate became higher my mild acne on the shoulders, which I had had for several years, disappeard.
Collden,
What I mean is that I did the opposite of the HED recommendations to eat a ton and not exercise. I followed a low fat moderate protein diet and did high intensity exercise.
Mark,
It depends on how you tolerate it. Some people don't do well on this style of eating because all of the carbs in one big meal at night gives them hypo symptoms. Some people do really well with this type of eating, and I think a lot of people do better eating higher protein in the beginning of the day and higher carb at night because it helps them be alert during the day and relax at night. Another option would be to eat smaller meals during the day and a larger meal at night.
You have mentioned many times that your goal is to get below 10% bodyfat. The most important thing will be to make sure you don't go over calories, so make sure you are not going to high.
thanks john, that is basically the primary reason I'm skeptical of Peat. If sucrose is superior to starch for metabolic health, why then isn't this reflected in the food culture of any traditional populations, anywhere?
Jannis, I know doing the HED greatly ramped up my metabolic rate to the point where I couldn't gain weight on 4000 calories a day, in addition to fixing a myriad of other problems like fatigue, cold sensitivity and poor glucose tolerance. In general I feel more hyper than hypothyroid, though of course experiencing hypoglycemia when consuming large amounts of sucrose is a weakness I'd like to deal with. You then think it can be resolved by incorporating more sucrose into the diet until it no longer causes hypoglycemia?
About acne and hypo, like I said, my acne slowly disappeared only after many consecutive months of chronic low calorie dieting where I lowered my metabolism to the point where I was weight stable at 1800 calories a day. (This is also exactly what happened in the Minnesota starvation experiment). It only reappeared after several months on the HED, coinciding with the return of a 98.2F basal temperature and when my fat gain slowed down. Seems contradictory no?
Thanks JT. That is my goal and I'm trying to do it while working 60+ hours a week and only having time to workout 3-4 times a week. I think I just need to be more consistent in my eating because I know many people have done great with even less spare time. I know I don't do well on weighing and measuring (I get nerotic) but I'm hoping by avoiding a lot of added fats that I'll be ok. I like your idea of more protein earlier to stay focused because I lose it quickly when eating high carb at my desk. Thanks again for your help. Hopefully I'll progress someday.
Exercising regularly and lifting heavy things a couple times a week is a must! The word diet, to most people means temporary way of eating and usually calorie restrictive. To me, it means what you feed yourself on over a lifetime. Eating a diet predominated by raw whole foods is important. Fruit, doesn't mix well with other foods. When switching over to high fruit, there is a transition period where it may seem like the body is rejecting it. There are many fruits so of oranges don't sit well, eat something else instead.
Collden,
…not contradictory if your increased metabolic rate led to a vitamin A deficiency (assuming vitamin A [active levels] is helpful)
jannis,
Yes, but Peat echoes/agrees with Barnes. It's a bad explanation because the "imbalance" would always in the same direction–too much "thyroid" and not enough vitamin A (within reasonable amounts).
I listened to an interview with Clarence Bass and although what you describe as his workouts, he does change from time to time. The workouts from Ripped, Ripped 2, etc. change from book to book. He was a world-ranked Concept 2 rower…he has done kettlebells. He was even an Olympic weightlifter. So the workouts aren't set in stone.
I think a lot of people do better eating higher protein in the beginning of the day and higher carb at night because it helps them be alert during the day and relax at night.
This rings true for me. Lately I've been noticing that when I don't eat much protein for breakfast (but also when I don't eat a large breakfast in general, with sufficient starch and fat as well), I tend to be especially lazy, unmotivated, and negative during the day.
I hadn't thought much about the effect of the protein:carb ratio of my dinners, but in fact, just last night I had a very high-protein, no-starch dinner, and I had trouble falling asleep, which is rare for me. So I think I'll start to make a point of eating more protein in the morning and less at night. Thanks for spelling out what I subconsciously knew but had yet to recognize as a maxim I should deliberately follow!
When I would workout later in the evenings, the days that I had a big protein shake or a can of tuna afterwards, I would not sleep at all.
Although Bass should not be worshipped for his appearance of health – he has had many health problems recently including hip replacement, osteoarthritis, and hypertriglyceridemia (I probably would too if I consumed soy milk, skim milk, and a peanut butter sandwich every day and fruit with every meal), clearly he has some secrets to share. His main secret, as you can read about in this online article, is simply eating a nutritious whole foods diet and being very patient with the weight loss
But soy milk and skim milk aren't whole foods!
Ha ha! No those are not whole foods Mikey. But let's say he does not eat refined grain or sugar during a typical day.
I too can predict how I'm going to sleep by the amount of protein I eat at dinner.
Matt, I don't really understand this post – why should we emulate a bald guy with bad health just because he's skinny and muscled (unnaturally I may add, probably due to steroid use)? When I was most slim I also had the worst health, and when you were the most slim/muscled as in the pighead pic you also had the worst health ever, these are your words…PK
PK-
The point of this post was that one of the leanest mofo's of his generation stated explicitly that the key to getting lean is never being hungry and not dieting.
I'm not saying we should shoot for 2.4% body fat. But perhaps someone with 100 pounds of excess body fat could stand to learn something from Bass's methods, regardless of whether or not his actual diet and lifestyle is healthy, which it obviously isn't.
And I've been a hell of a lot leaner than I was in the pighead photos, lol!
But yes, I was very unhealthy and psycho when I was. But some seem to be able to have both leanness and health. If it is possible to go from being fat and unhealthy to lean and healthy, I'd like to know how to do it. At the very least we can see how not to do it, and Bass's anti-dieting message strongly supports that deprivation is definitely NOT the answer.
Anonymous/PK,
…lowering body fat doesn't imply declining health…that's an oversimplified idea…
Matt, What do you mean by "unhealthy and psycho" when you were leaner?
Emotional? Angry? Depressed?
Please explain!
Those interested in the daily timing of protein consumption should check out a book by Sidney Baker called the Circadian Prescription. Supposedly he has had great success with patients by making this one change. You can have a soy protein shake for breakfast, and a big plate of pasta for dinner.
?? if you want to stay motivated for a lifetime, develop your own health and fitness program. Own it.
So true and wise!
Matt,
"Bass's anti-dieting message strongly supports that deprivation is definitely NOT the answer."
We don't want to give people on here the wrong impression. Bass definitely did diet and deprive himself for his pictures. I am sure he doesn't walk around that lean all the time, so on his normal diet he probably doesn't feel deprived. Also, he has been doing it a long time, so he no longer feels deprived on a diet that most normal people would. This is something that can be learned over time.
To get super lean, most people will be in a constant state of hunger, it s just part of it unless you are one of the lucky few who are genetically inclined to be ripped.
When you say you don't sleep well if you eat protein for dinner, do you mean muscle meats exclusively? I've curious if milk and cheese do the same thing,
Matt,
Re: "unhealthy and psycho," I'm waiting for more stories about the infamous Wind River Diet.
Has anyone noticed a difference between the starch in potatoes and the starch from grains? I can handle potatoes perfectly fine, but when I eat grains like bread,pasta,rice,cereal, it gives me this weird anxiety feeling, accompained by some inflammation (breakouts, joint pain). Can anyone explain this? One would think starch is starch, but my body disagrees.
Hi, I’m a newbie around here and wonder if you guys could give me some advice. Background- coming from the GAPS protocol for 6 mos., did it as a moderate carb plan w/high fat, lots of low carb veggies, moderate meat, yogurt, kefir and some fruit and honey. Tried it for digestive problems, autoimmune and tested adrenal issues. I felt like nuts, fruit and honey were not working and after learning from 180 about dangers of low carb I didn’t know what to do because it’s automatically a pretty low carb protocol after cutting those things out.
So last week I started RRARF/HED (Still not sure the difference) and added red and Yukon potatoes. I did about equal starch to fat ratios and had 3 different days of 1 hour postprandial glucose reading being between 106 and 136 which kind of freaked me out. So then I read the addendum about going higher starch and lower fat and really pounded the taters w/little fat today. I found myself not really able to get full on a mound of mashed potatoes that honestly looked daunting at first. Each meal I ate an exorbitant amount of food, yet I was not really able to get full, but I wasn’t hungry either. So then I did the 1 hour postprandial glucose reading tonight and I’m so freaked out because it was 195.
So should I go back to even starch/fat or ride out high starch/low fat. Will I normalize? I was having blood sugar issues on GAPS but had never done glucose testing. I appreciate any advice?
Will,
Try to eat some cheese, milk or gelatine instead of tuna or a protein shake.
There is a lot of Tryptophan and only very little amounts of other amino acids in those things. Tryptophan increases serotonin which inhibits sleep. Besides, it suppresses thyroid function when there are no other amino acids to balance it.
RyanL,
Maybe you can't handle the gluten very well. A lot of people don't tolerate grains because they can't digest the protein properly. Potatos are a good starch source. Grains are full of anti-nutrients and PUFA. It's best you avoid the as much as possible.
Jannis
Would you please send me the sucrose studies? I asked you two posts back but you probably didn't see it. My address is clotilde dot hunter at gmail dot com
Thank you very much
Jannis, what are you studying in, in Germany?
Are you doing your bachelor's degree?
RyanL
I actually find white rice much more easily digestible than potatoes of any sort, no matter how the potatoes are prepared (boiled, fried in butter, etc.)
Do you eat white rice plain, or do you eat it with meat, or some fat on top? If you add butter to the rice, it may make it harder OR easier to digest, depending on your own digestion.
I enjoy white rice with raw eggs on top. It's a Japanese dish: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamago_kake_gohan
Jannis sounds like another Ray peat para-phraser.
Ryan, there is a book at http://www.soilandhealth.org about Pritikin, the man who helped people with heart problems using a low fat, high grain diet. Toss Horne, the man that wrote the book at soil and health found that he and a lot of other people following the diet ended up getting arthritis. You can find a very detailed explanation of "why" in the book.
Anon,
I wrote down your email adress.
I will send you the studies as soon as I find the time to sort them. I have more than a hundred mails from Peat and need some time to sort that mess.
I am currently working on a seminar paper and don't have the time to do it right now.
I think I am indeed kind of a peat para-phraser to some extent. That's because most of the things he writes are true and work. And they are grounded on science.
Anyway, what do you think Matt is doing here? You think he is the first in the world that has come up with the ground-breaking idea of a high starch diet?
The FDA is recommending exactely the same.
Hi Jannis,
I don't do that anymore…just relating a past experience. Actually haven't worked out very much/consistently since last December. I had water damage in my game room (which was my weight room) and have spent the last 9 months getting a french drain, remodeling, landscaping, etc. Lots of work but not many workouts, LOL!
RyanL, I was pounding the rice a lot lately and actually gained almost an inch back on my waist from the 6" that I had lost. I had been eating fruit just a few times a week. The last few days I have been eating much more fruit (by itself) and eating potatoes instead of rice. In the past 3 or 4 days I lost about 3 pounds and 1/2 inch off my waist. Was it the fruit or potatoes? I don't know, but I know that the rice wasn't doing me any favors, LOL! BTW, I eat Minute Rice mostly because I eat so much rice, so maybe that is the culprit…don't know.
Getting back on the Bass track…several comments were made about him being bald. I want to share an observation that I made where I used to work. We had a lot of "heavy" guys that worked there…250lbs and up over 300. One thing that I noticed that these guys ALL had a full, thick head of hair. They all had multiple health problems, but lots of hair. Most of the exercisers, that were generally thinner, were all losing their hair. I know that everyone probably knows a fat bald guy, and there were a couple of outliers, but that was a pretty significant trend. Any thoughts?
The Real Will,
I think the moral of the story is that it's too hard to control for everything, and we just don't know enough. You can be lean and healthy or lean and unhealthy, but obesity implies metabolic damage…
…So, what's going on inside the hairy fat guy's body that's different from the bald lean guy's body…who knows…
…remember Danny from Carnivore Health Web blog lowered his body temperature significantly without losing his hair. So, a low "metabolism" doesn't seem to be the [all encompassing] answer.
To those who've claimed his physique is due to steroids can suck it. He admits to having tried steroids back in the 1970's and found out he didn't like them. Beyond that the effects of steroids DO NOT last 40 years.
Second, he IS that lean year round plus or minus. Since he eats the same things day in and day out (his starch btw is mostly whole grains not potatoes)it only requires him to remove a slice of bread to "diet" down as he has stated on more than one occasion. He has also stated that during a recent phot shoot the photographer was a bit surprised that he wasn't hungry like most bodybuilders after a photoshoot.
–Chris Robbins
Chris,
You are right, he is always on a diet, he just doesn't call it a diet because it is part of his lifestyle now. He doesn't feel hungry or deprived anymore because he has adapted to this way of eating, but the average person would feel hungry and deprived eating this diet. I am not saying this is a bad thing because I eat a similar diet, and I don't feel deprived, but I know most people would.
@The Real Deal Will,
A Chinese lady told me that balding is due to internal body heat. Not what we would think of as adequate metabolism or normal body temperature, but a mal body heat caused by blood deficiency which then causes the liver to overheat. The blood becomes thick and dirty and doesn't carry the nutrients to the extremities, such as the hair follicles. It is more likely to happen to very thin people just because of the fact that their body dehydrates much more easily.
Hey John,
Yeah, I realize that there are tons of variables but it was just striking to me that EVERY guy there over 250 lbs had a full head of hair…every single one. Either it was a strange coincidence, or there is some kind of trend.
Hey Betsy,
Your answer could apply. Some of these guys would break a sweat eating lunch, LOL!
Well seems like the discussion is on topic with my issues lately
I have noticed that my acne/extreme oily skin is making a re-occurrence big time, now that I have really up'd my starch carbs and lowered my coconut oil and butter intake (raw milk too). This started happening after I went on the raw milk diet for almost 2 weeks, which would have been higher in carbs, within the last 2months. Before that on low carb and moderate carb, acne was somewhat better… My main goal is to clear my acne. Seems like I have gone full circle on the carb merry go round and now am back to having full on acne again and mega oily skin.
I have tested for low cortisol (24hr – 4x), low free testosterone. My TSH, free t3 and free t4 are looking good, and DHEA looks normal. My iron levels and D3 are good. I wasn't able to get a reverse T3 reading, my doc is really lost when it comes to this… and they are no other options for a doctor, so I will have to figure this out on my own.
My basal has been stuck at the same temp whatever my carb/fat intake is. I tried IsoCort and that gave my high cortisol symptoms (mainly extremely oily skin, and more acne), then thought maybe some T3 – cytomel, but that gave me extreme low cortisol symptoms (panic, depression…) But makes sense, cortisol can use up T3, and T3 can use up cortisol, from what I understand. I haven't tried them together yet, which most thyroid sites recommend, but I thought I would need stable adrenals first (ie IsoCort).
Anyway I just want to get the metabolism cooking, it seems to be the only way to get rid of acne. I have tried accutane and many many other solutions. Just not sure what to do, stick with this high unrefined carbs, or maybe try the IsoCort/T3 combo, or try the Peat way. I do sup with vitamin A (non-synthetic)
Seems like people with a slightly broken metabolism, HED will be fine. But once your metabolism is mega-ruined. Something else is needed.
So when sucrose starts to lower the Cortisol amounts, what is the best way to counter act this, when I have fruit in the mornings, I get all the crazy symptoms people have been reporting. low cortisol from overnight, then sucrose lowering more. I gather this relaxing the adrenals, but makes me feel very unstable. Wouldn't dosing with IsoCort, relax the adrenals as well?
JT I know you have posted about this before, could you give a few points on what you did, while you were taken HC.
Also what exercises are best for raising ones metabolism?
Undertow, there's a very strong link between acne and grains/fruit at least for me if you haven't tried eliminating them.
Undertow,
"…get rid of acne…I do sup with vitamin A (non-synthetic)…"
Often, a deficiency is the result, not a cause of a problem. This is why supplement trials are rarely successful.
If acne is a vitamin A deficiency, you need a metabolic environment that spares/uses vitamin A.
"Also what exercises are best for raising ones metabolism?"
Some get the best results with exercises that maximize muscle building (full front/back squats). But, you could argue sprints (up to 200m) are the best. Of course, you can do both each week.
Undertow, what supplements do you take — almost every supplement under the sun made my skin breakout — especially stuff like fish oil, coq10, shark liver oil etc. I only use vitamin D and vitamin K now ( no breakouts). Magnesium also messed up my skin alot.
I would sometimes use a retinol cream — but it seems as if over time, it just caused my pores to shrink and clog. Which is why my skin always seems to liked warm water while it would breakout with cold water.
My skin seems to be the clearest when i only use water to clean my face (sometimes some shampoo gets on my face so i know it gets a little cleanser now and then, i only get water on my first during a shower, NOT DURING THE DAY OR AT NIGHT). I feel like i was brain washed into using cleansers and moisturizers on my face.
Until you fully reverse insulin resistance in your face ( which can happen separate from your body). High carb, low fat with an abundance of calories can increase growth hormones that increase oil production in your skin (hense acne).
My skin was the clearest when i used to stick to vegies, rice, and full fat protein sources (NO DAIRY THOUGH <— messed up acne the worst!) tubers would also mess up acne at first, but i feel as if you can get away with a little at first. Also, nuts seem to aggravate acne. While anti-nutrients can be pro-longevity — they also seem to cause pimples in some.
BTW — the only substances i've ever seen that reversed pimples in me were acetyl-L carnitine, Propionyl-L-Carnitine, and Diindolylmethane. The first too help your mitochondria burn fat — the last supplement helps converts bad estrogen metabolites in good ones. It probably also reduces testosterone a bit.
The reason i thought to use the above 2 is because i always felt as if my body liberated fat easily, but never really burned it well. Be careful though, I stopped using the top too substances because they were too much like stimulants for me. But they can help you with bad breakouts.
Undertow,
When i was in your situation, I had to take hydrocortisone to be able to function. I didn't get better until I started back on exercise doing MET, and changed my diet to a traditional bodybuilding diet of protein and carbs 5-6 times a day. It took me about 4 months of this before I was able to stop taking the hydrocortisone.
Stop eating fruit in the morning if it makes you symptoms worse. Eat more protein in the mornings with smaller amounts of more complex carbs instead of fruit or sugar.
I also got herbs from an ayurvedic doc, and I think this helped, but it is hard to find a good one.
Collden:
"How do the Peat followers explain the tendency of sucrose, but not starch, to produce hypoglycemia in some?"
Perhaps their body is messed up by PUFAs and other toxins. I get none of the symptoms you describe after fruit consumption.
"If sucrose is superior to starch for metabolic health, why then isn't this reflected in the food culture of any traditional populations, anywhere?"
The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. Peat can cite many studies where sugars were was in deed better than starch for one reason or another. I found several studies wherein sugars sped up the removal of PUFAs from the body, so it seems like sugars may speed the metabolism. Primitives didn't live in the toxic world we live in, and as a result they had better health.
Just because "some" people have an adverse reaction to natural sugars doesn't mean starches are "better" than sugars in the long term or in general. Pointing out epidemiology is meaningless. Just because we're not aware of tribes that ate a lot of fruit doesn't mean there aren't any or that eating fruit will harm the body by itself.
Matt: if you read all of Clarence Bass's articles, you will find one where he admits to gaining weight when he stopped exercising. So his claim that his diet keeps him lean is BS.
JT: "What I mean is that I did the opposite of the HED recommendations to eat a ton and not exercise."
Those were Matt's recommendations, not mine. They were also only used short-term for healing & recovery. I have long noted the benefits of high-intensity exercise like jumps and interval training, as well as weight lifting, active sitting, et cetera. Matt never told anyone to "not exercise" for life. He warned against the danger of heavy cardio or endurance exercise, but he does not deny the benefit of short hard exercise. There are many studies showing the benefits of interval training, even for people who are out of shape, although one should consult a doctor to be safe.
Aaron – Insulin resistance in the face independent from the rest of the body? I must confess to never hearing of such a thing.
Could you elaborate or link to some info?
Ian,
Glad to have you back man!
I agree with you regarding your sugar statements.
Here is a direct quote from your website regarding the principles of HED:
"5.Do not exercise! The ultimate would be bed rest during the first several weeks to 30 days. At the very least keep physical exertion to household chores, cooking, easy walks to get fresh air (sunbathing is better), and light stretching. Avoid stress as much as is feasible, including avoiding too much reading or television watching. Not too much sex either Tiger."
This may have been meant as a short term thing, but many people on here have distorted it. They justify their sedentary lifestyle by claiming that they are healing with HED.
Ian what about all the fructose fears with sugars?
Hey JT,
Just out of curiosity, if it's not too much to ask, can you post what one of your days looks like in terms of meals? Feel free to use some measurements like for example: breakfast, 6 ounce lean top round steak with a cup of haiga rice. Thanks
@JT, How much HC were you on? Seen most recommendation are around 25mg per day, 10-5-5-5 dosing. Did you contemplate T3 as well, for raising temps? I don't actually eat fruit in the mornings, I was just testing that a few days, and it was a roller coaster of instability. For the 4 months on HC, you avoided sucrose? I think you have mentioned that. If sucrose relaxes the adrenals, could it not be used in place of Cortisol?
I think I will start back on IsoCort, to see if I can get the adrenals relaxed and start back on some exercise. I may have just been on a too high a dose when I had high cortisol symptoms. What is the low down on MET, or do I need to get some DVD's? I am close to 1 year on RRARF with no exercise, I am happy with how my body comp has changed on high starch and mod fat to now lower fat. It's just that the acne is getting worse again, ie still hypothyroid… with a low basal and low pulse rate. I think I will keep my 4 meals per day, and bring back up the protein and fat, and keep pounding some starch.
@Kirk, I don't eat any gluten grains, its been 2yrs gluten free. Been fruit free for about 2yrs too.
@Aaron Only supplement I take is the occasional Vit D liquid in olive oil, Vit A, zinc once in while, and dessicated beef liver. Believe me I have tried all that shit out there and accutane twice. I am not looking for pills to pop that will mask symptoms, I want to fix the core hypothyroid, broken metabolism. I know IsoCort is a pill, but its bio-identical Cortisol. I have read that people have success with it.
My other question to people who know Peat, when sucrose relaxes adrenals, how do you overcome the low cortisol state? What is the solution to raise cortisol to the right levels and break the psycho feelings?
undertow,
It seems like you're in a messy situation. Peat thinks acne is about balance between "thyroid" and vitamin A, but as I showed above, vitamin A would then always be the limiting factor.
I'd bet a large amount that a well-constructed carnivorous diet would get rid of acne; however, nobody wants to be so restricted–plus, it may not be the healthiest. So, why does skin get clear with it; I don't know…
Art Ayers from Cooling Inflammation has a few posts that talk about acne–maybe try his advice?
John,
I did one year mega low carb, and ya it does reduce the acne, but it does not solve the issue.
Fixing the metabolism is the only way it seems.
I read some accounts of people on Cortisol and dessicated thyroid, and once there levels are optimal, all hypo symptoms including oily skin and acne go away. I would like to solve this issue without relying on taking thyroid the rest of my life. I hope.
Ian,
"I found several studies wherein sugars sped up the removal of PUFAs from the body"
Interesting. Can you show us the studies?
"you will find one where he admits to gaining weight when he stopped exercising"
I bet it's almost impossible to remain lean on a PUFA diet, unless you do lots of HIIT or strength training.
"There are many studies showing the benefits of interval training, even for people who are out of shape"
True. HIIT burns visceral fat, so it may reduce insulin resistance.
My gut continues to act up on my high grain diet. I am eating small portions. There is no food I haven't eaten without problems in the past. I have gut ache, gas, constipation and diarhea. I have also lost weight (and I don't need to lose weight) AND got fatter. I feel quite sad about this as this diet is so brilliant for me from other angles. I have a hard time eating regularly, can't face food, especially early in the day. This bland food is easy for me to eat. Also I have developed a slight increase in appetite which is good. I am going to give it another week and if I don't get any improvements in my digestion then I'll have to cut way back on the grain. My temps are up so I guess I could go back to my high fat diet. The only problem with that is high fat food is too rich for me in the daytime (except for milk/kefir which i can eat anytime). I couldn't eat all those potatoes- it would be impossible for me. As for white rice- well I'm not going to start eating refined food. I probably could face a little fruit in the daytime. I've never been much of a fruit eater. I've become a little scared of it from the reports of people's experience here. Do you think trad people fermented almost all their grain? I still can't see why I can't eat what has been a mainstay of European diet- I don't have a history of digestive problems and have always eaten a wholesome diet.
Oh I just wanted to add I tried eating big salads with lots of raw vegetables a few years back and had a similar gut reaction. I abandoned that sooner though cause I wasn't enjoying it like I am grains.
undertow,
You said, "Fixing the metabolism is the only way it seems."
The problem is that this is an oversimplification. You can relate this to the obese/hair/bald discussion above. What does it mean exactly to have a "broken metabolism"? If acne/balding implies brokenness, why aren't all these people obese?
Continuing on that, many nutrition bloggers will say exercise does not influence weight set point (I think it does), so that argument is gone; anyway, if exercise does prevent/hide metabolic damage, one could then ask why any lean person has acne or a balding head…
Wow. I didn't realize how expensive Scott Abel's videos are. O.o
Very interesting stuff going on here. I would like to mirror undertows questions as well:
"My other question to people who know Peat, when sucrose relaxes adrenals, how do you overcome the low cortisol state? What is the solution to raise cortisol to the right levels and break the psycho feelings?"
I seem to react pretty badly to fructose in the morning but from late afternoon onwards it seems to relax me and warm my body up (most of the time).
Also like undertow I still have a low temp in the morning upon waking around 96.7 but in the throughout the day and in the afternoon my temp is at a good range 97.7+ so not sure what is going on….. This is after a few months on HED and now a more eat to appetite mixed diet, emphasising starch.
Also @ undertow try some liquorice root tea or capsules to combat the low cortisol feelings, I had some tea out of coincidence the other day and it lifted away the low cortisol feelings I was having at the time. Apparently it slows the bodies breakdown of cortisol.
I've just found out about the miracle berry that makes tart things taste sweet.
Maybe I could ferment my grains and use the berries to make the fermented grains more palatable.
Has anyone any experience with these berries?
Katerina said:
"Wow. I didn't realize how expensive Scott Abel's videos are."
LOL Yup. That's why I haven't bought them yet (though I still plan to at some point).
But you can find some examples of his training techniques on his youtube channel here:
http://www.youtube.com/scottabelcoaching
Good stuff, got me really interested in it.
OK, yesterday I ate a bunch more fruit and potatoes instead of rice. Woke up this morning down another pound and down another 3/8" off my waist. I was thinking that it may just be flushing my colon or something, but my love handles are almost completely gone. Weird. Happy about it, but weird.
Also, my teeth feel funny and I have the appearance of some new skin tags. Aren't skin tags a result of wacky blood sugar?
Because of his health issues I'd still be careful to extrapolate that Bass's diet is good in a certain way (like for staying slim because it's low fat). But yes, he's not depriving himself (according to his words) and still manages to stay slim. It could be just a coincidence though – for example if he has an intestinal parasite or something ;)
Also, maybe it's being forgotten a bit that just because fat can't be properly metabolized by some people it doesn't necessarily mean it's inherently bad. Even more, it could be essential and removing it will result in some other problem. I just read about a new japanese study that showed low saturated fat diet's association with more strokes. Same for fruit, carbohydrate, grain or anything we've been eating for some time really. Like, I don't remember Weston Price saying anything about low-fat, low-fruit or even low-grain diets being the answer.
On broken metabolism and acne and balding… here I have to think about the Pottenger's cat study. Cats in that study went from very homogenous (optimal nutrition) to very heterogenous (non-optimal nutrition). In the end, some had very big skulls, some had asthma, milk allergies, others myopia and so on… so brokenness/metabolism issues/whatever you want to call it in people probably also doesn't result in the same problems in everyone. And I know of several bald guys that are fat, but yeah their fat is mainly abdominal and most are diabetic…
But what I really don't get is the refined sugar proponents. How is a food with no nutrients supposed to sustain life?? If sugar raises metabolism then it should also provide nutrients, as high metabolism means a high need for nutrients… PK
PK,
"…so brokenness/metabolism issues/whatever you want to call it in people probably also doesn't result in the same problems in everyone…"
Perhaps people "break down" in different places and develop a corresponding problem as opposed to everyone having the same problem(s) (fatigued adrenals or hypothyroid) and calling it a "damaged/broken metabolism."
"But what I really don't get is the refined sugar proponents. How is a food with no nutrients supposed to sustain life?? If sugar raises metabolism then it should also provide nutrients, as high metabolism means a high need for nutrients…"
Not that I'm a "sugar proponent," but I don't think they just generally recommend refined sugar (natural sugars are preferable); however, all else equal, [they believe] sucrose is better than glucose.
John,
My thinking would be; broken metabolism means mis-aligned hormones, which could be acne, bad digestion, balding, obesity, etc… so when hormones are re-aligned (which ever ones are displaced), then balding would stop, acne would go away, gut flora improves, or obesity would reverse. Very simply view, but something like that.
So how do we re-align; leptin, cortisol, thyroid, insulin, testosterone, estrogen, etc,etc,….
Seems that good food in the tank, when the engine is broken, doesn't always get the trick done. I think that bio-identical replacement, like what Scwharzbein recommends, might be the path for people that try RRARF/HED for 12months, and don't get results. Seeing that most doctors are lost, and would only prescribe a statin, we need to figure this on are own.
First thing for me is to repair low cortisol in the mornings. Either with replacement, or via the Peat view that sucrose relaxes the adrenals.
undertow,
I agree (about imbalanced hormones), and it's a tricky solution. Maybe each of those (balding, acne, etc) represents a very specific problem.
Out of curiosity, I wonder what someone's hormone levels would look like after a long term refeed after long stint of calorie restriction–anyone know of any Army rangers' health/diet experiences from training?
I would think that in trying to fix your metabolism it would help to find out what messed it up in the first place.
well, he looks great but those health problems are not to be taken lightly.
losing bone mass is big and CRON followers are starting to be a group w this very problem.
you can blame it on soy milk but these folks are usually vegetarian (or close) and very low fat (no PB) so there's a lot more at play.
and peop who've jumped on the low fat food pyramid seem to be taking statins….and so many are not eating junk food but come from a generation that got into politically correct eating.
since you are a youngster, matt, you may have missed all those vegetarian hippies……and back in those days there was very little soy milk.
hey my dad lived in Aspen for many years…bought a little house there for 20k and he and his wife raised their son. he was a fine artist and painted many beautiful aspen houses among other things.
undertow –
I had bad bad, life-debilitating acne. Quick rundown, I would say I started at a 3/10 (skin/acne condition) from SAD. Went down to a miserable 2/10 from restrictive low-cal veganism. Went lowcarb-ish WAPF – raw gf butter, sauerkraut, kefir, raw meat, no sugar, went up to about 4/10 but got really sick. Each of those phases (cept SAD, obv) last about 2 months. Then I did a Schwartzbein-ish low PUFA low sugar HED for about 8 months, and was at about 5/10 about the entire time. Really didn't seem to be getting better, and I wasn't feeling better so FINALLY I jumped off the "fruit gives you acne" wagon that 90% of the people here testify to. Good lord. Fruit was good, good, good, quite good for me. Feeling so much better energy-wise, and pulling 9/10 skin for the last 3 months.
So, in short, I have to really go against the flow here of people who say fruit gives them acne. I don't sweat overeating it or anything, I'll have 6-7 servings a day, anytime except right after a meal. Vegetables didn't help my acne, low-pufa didn't, delicious fresh fruit did. Your 2-years fruit-free statement kind of shocked me. From where I'm standing now, that kind of deprivation seems awful and a bit stubborn.
Whatever you try, I pray it works out for you. Acne is the worst, really screws up a life that should be good.
Anon 9:47,
specifically what kind of fruit has helped you?
Anonymous,
So that seems to be inline with Peat and fruit sucrose being ok. Your story looks similar to mine. SAD as a youth and teen and adult, acne started in teens. So far whole food; lowcarb, WAPF, low PUFA and low fructose have not done the trick, all giving about a 5/10 like you. Real high carb is putting me back to a 3/10. The two years fruit free, goes with all the lowcarb, and fructose-free overeating I have been following the last two years trying to rid myself of this.
Can you give examples of what a daily meal plan looks like? Do you still eat regular starch/protein/fat meals as well? Milk, gelatin, protein, high/low fat? So fruit with meals and not after. Lastly like the other anon, what fruits are your staples?
Betsy: "Ryan, there is a book at http://www.soilandhealth.org about Pritikin, the man who helped people with heart problems using a low fat, high grain diet. Toss Horne, the man that wrote the book at soil and health found that he and a lot of other people following the diet ended up getting arthritis. You can find a very detailed explanation of "why" in the book."
Any theory of "why" is speculation unless you isolate your variables. Maybe the grains caused it, or the lack of fat-soluble vitamins, or a combination of both. I believe you could compensate for it with ample butter, eggs, liver, and sunlight. The Sikhs studied by R. McCarrison ate fresh, non-fermented wheat and were immune to modern diseases.
rosenfelt,
I don't weigh or measure my food anymore because I am not trying to lose fat. I just eyeball it now, but normally I aim for 30 grams of lean protein source which could be lean meat, fish, protein powder, or beans. Then I will usually add 1-2 cups of rice, but sometimes I will have another carb source like pasta, bread, corn tortilas, etc… Miscellaneous veggies and the occasional fruit. I eat this same way for 5 meals a day. I also have a drink with peptopro and a cup of sugar when I workout. Pretty much this is my whole diet, but I occasional have desserts and eat whatever I want a few times a week.
Undertow,
I was using 5 mg 4 times a day.
Katerina,
Even really bad personal trainers at a gym will cost over $600 a month and that is only for 3 days a week. Rachel Cosgrove who Matt posted on a while back charges $4500 for a 1 day consultation.
If you really can't afford it then i would watch all of his videos on youtube for free like Elizabeth suggested. I think he has some people he mentors that will set you up a program for cheaper, but I still think a dvd is great especially for newbies so that they can see how to do it correctly.
@Ian,
I suppose that you could say that anything may have caused it, but when Ross Horne cut out the grains and started eating raw fruit, the arthritis went away. He can name many other people who were following pritikin,took his advice, and then saw remission of not only arthritis but also cancer.
Also, with respect to fruit, several weeks ago when peaches came in season I started to eat a lot of fruit all morning long. I would eat some before and after walking the dogs for about 50 minutes, then when I got back home I would go outside and do heavy yard work for about 50 minutes. Then I would eat some potatoes with a little bit of butter and salt and feel sick and tired. Peaches went out of season so I started to focus on rice with sauteed vegetables. I went back to feeling tired almost all the time. Now I'm back to eating fruit on and off all day long, and I'm feeling better again. So I, too, have to say that not everyone feels worse when eating lots of fruit.
With respect to acne and fruit, there is a website dedicated to solving the acne issue using raw fruit and only small amounts of animal protein…www.waisays.com.
@Ian,
I had to come back and post again because I realized that you meant that Ross Horne and all the others who got better by cutting out grains could have perhaps been fine with grains if they would have added in the things that you mention, so my response didn't follow logically.
What I should have said is that my message was in response to Ryan, who specifically asked if anyone knew if the starch in grains is different from the starch in potatoes because he knew grains were causing him a problem.
Matt,
How does one know when it's time to eat only to appetite (instead of overeating) and start exercising? I realize that everyone's different, but are there some signs to look for to know when your body is ready for it? My temp. is up to 97.8 (oral, pre-ovulation). Should I wait for it to get higher? If so, what's the "magic number?"
When I did SCD/GAPS I never needed deodorant. Now, my overall health is much better doing HED with lots of starch, but my pits smell a lot more. Is that normal?
fruity anonymous here:
I don't eat fruit with meals actually. Before or between – I'm not obsessive about the empty stomach thing, I just don't eat it when I'm *full*.
It's the first thing I eat in the morning; then (20-60 minutes later) I'll have a meal of starch, protein, veggies, and fat. Used to be restrictive (no cheese, no canned goods, or what have you) but not really anymore. Sample meal could be white rice with steamed onions and carrots, coconut oil fried shrimp, and a little added butter. Meal's probably 75g carb (not counting fruit), 25g protein, 15-20g fat. I lean towards overeating. I'm satisfied for the next few hours, and then depending on what I crave, I'll either eat a few pieces of fruit to tide me over, or have another real meal. Etc, etc.
I like and eat most fruit, except berries really. Melons, bananas, peaches, oranges, grapes, etc.
JT: You are confusing Matt's words with mine. "Do not exercise!" was something Matt Stone said. He sent me his 10 HED rules which I posted on my blog. It appears in the post titled "Matt Stone's HED Rules." I don't agree with that advice. I am in favor of interval training, 1-3 weight lifting sessions a week, as well as walking and active sitting if possible. Use a balance ball or one legged stool, like Sitness 20, Swopper, Muvman, etc.
http://forget-about-diets.blogspot.com/
Here is what I said in my original HED: "you should exercise when you feel like it, not in an attempt to lose weight. Excessive exercise is a form of starvation. Make it fun and spontaneous, like playing and short intense bursts of activity. Lift weights to build muscle and strength, but allow yourself several days to recover between work-outs. Just walking is fine to begin." Read the "High Everything Diet Guidelines" on my blog.
Mark: "Ian what about all the fructose fears with sugars?"
Fear contributes greatly to health problems. Beyond that, I feel Matt is right that healthy people don't have problems metabolizing natural sugars. Vegetable oils seem like a catalyst for destroying health and metabolism. Most studies demeaning fructose fed animals vegetable oil and other garbage. Refined sugars are also not equal. HFCS is vastly more fattening than sucrose. Some react better to sucrose than stuff like fruit and honey (due to plant toxins). I would avoid most foods with sugar, simply because they're full of processed oils, bleached & enriched flour, and other poisons. You have to consider the dose, as well. 40g of dark chocolate hasn't got much sugar. Having a cheat day once or twice a week is not as bad as eating bad stuff every day. Ice cream is probably a lot healthier than doughnuts, chips, fries, soft drinks, cookies, cakes, pies, etc. The ideal recipe for disease is an abundance of cheap processed oils, HFCS, and bleached enriched flour.
undertow: "My other question to people who know Peat, when sucrose relaxes adrenals, how do you overcome the low cortisol state? What is the solution to raise cortisol to the right levels and break the psycho feelings?"
The other foods that Peat suggests would probably compensate for such effects, eggs, shellfish, gelatin- rich broths, etc. He's not telling anyone to eat fruitarian or vegan. His diet is similar to primitives, except he feels that sugars are better than starches, because they help the body make Mead Acid, and to displace dietary PUFAs and the PUFAs already in the body.
Fruity Anon :)
Thanks, I will try adding in fruit like you are describing and see how it goes for the next week. Did you have low cortisol freakout/psychosis in the beginning?
I have been very low PUFA for months now, and lower PUFA for the last year, so see how this goes, that should be a factor I believe..
Thanks Ian, I do eat Peat style now, just starch over sucrose being the only point not really followed.
john: "I'd bet a large amount that a well-constructed carnivorous diet would get rid of acne; however, nobody wants to be so restricted–plus, it may not be the healthiest. So, why does skin get clear with it; I don't know…"
Many diets claim to cure acne. The WaiSays site claims that a diet of raw fruit, extra virgin olive oil, raw un-frozen fish, raw egg yolks, and hand-shelled raw nuts will get rid of acne, fast. Wai claims acne is caused by "dirty" proteins from cooked or processed food and other things. Carnivore diets are simply unnatural, unless you live in cold Arctic. Plus, the Eskimos stuffed themselves from what I understand. They ate just to eat. ZC diets are appetite-suppressive and make you likely to under-eat and slow your metabolism. Here is a former ZC-er who came to the same conclusion. A proper diet should maximize health all around, not create new issues, like feeling cold, irritable, etc. Over-eating can help, but it's not easy to over-eat meat. Just eating "to appetite" could be too little, even with plenty of fat.
http://tinyurl.com/2dajvwr
Ian,
I know what WaiSays claims. But, if I had to make a bet on a diet that would get rid of acne, I would for sure go with an "all meat"(not just muscle meat and water) diet. I never said it was good from an overall health standpoint. I simply think it is an interesing discussion-starting point.
"Interesting. Can you show us the studies?"
I found them on pubmed using words like "sugar starch pufa" or "sugar starch linoleic." I can't find the studies now. They talked about how starches and sugars have different effects on lipid synthesis and the amount of different lipids in the blood. Sugars (even glucose) had a very different effect than starch. The low-fat, high-starch diets had similar effects to high-PUFA diet, i.e. less saturated fat, more PUFA in the blood. Naturally, the study authors saw this as a benefit. Ray Peat emphasizes sugars as a way to displace PUFAs. He argues that the Mead Acid (omega-9) can substitute for "essential fatty acids", which he thinks are not essential at all if other factors are optimized.
Hey Ian,
So what would you think of a diet composed of the following in varying amounts:
Meat, veggies, butter, heavy cream, cheese, milk, sour cream, yams, white potatoes, honey, eggs, fruit, coconut, olives, olive oil, and avocados?
Excludes/Limits: nuts, seeds, rice, wheat, pasta/bread, pretty much anything processed, and cereal off the top of my head.
I guess it's modified Paleo but hey, it makes sense to me.
John: I don't think any diet cures acne 100%. Many diets can cure one person. Loren Cordain (and others) have argued that primitives didn't have acne, or it's extremely rare, but does he have full-body photos? People often have acne under their clothes. If somebody cures acne on all-meat, that doesn't prove carbs cause acne or that all other diets are unhealthy. It just proves that if you cut out enough food you can optimize one parameter.
Mark: that sounds like a good diet to me. It's what I aim to eat most of the time. But always think for yourself. I don't agree with Peat on everything. I think some people do better with sugars, and others do better with starches, depending on hormonal issues and so on. You can't find one-size-fits-all.
Mark,
Why are you still holding onto this paleo idea? I used to be the same way, so I can understand how it can trap a person, but luckily i was able to escape.
Why not just go with what works best, and not worry about if it is paleo approved or not. That list of foods is not really paleo, but I know that a lot of paleo followers allow them in for some reason. Nuts and seed are definitely paleo foods, and dairy definitely is not. Paleo man definitely wouldn't be eating a ton of eggs everyday, and no olive oil.
I am not saying your food choices are bad, I am just saying there is no need to try to make them fit into a paleo ideal.
Hi,
First time commenting – have been trying HED (although probably not as high on the carbs as I should be since I'm a recovering low carber/carbophobe) after reading the free ebook and Matt's Metabolism ebook and have the same question as Kaylin:
"How does one know when it's time to eat only to appetite (instead of overeating) and start exercising? I realize that everyone's different, but are there some signs to look for to know when your body is ready for it? My temp. is up to 97.8 (oral, pre-ovulation). Should I wait for it to get higher? If so, what's the "magic number?" "
My temp is pretty consistently over 98 (using an ear thermometer) which is great but I've gained 10 lbs which is not. I'm really starting to be a little uncomfortable at this weight and am tempted to go back to low carb/low cal to shake it. Is it really as easy as just "eating to appetite" instead of overfeeding – I'm not sure I really KNOW when I'm hungry.
Ian,
You're making straw man arguments. I never said that the fact that an "all meat" diet treats acne proves carbs cause acne or proves anything for that matter. It's a launching point for a discussion on the cause and why certain diets prevent it.
But, I will say that even though there isn't solid evidence of "primitives" being free of acne, I'd lean towards it being so, and I have a hunch you agree.
You said, "It just proves that if you cut out enough food you can optimize one parameter."
Maybe, let's try to build on this: Does anyone have a success story regarding his/her skin with an extremely restricted diet other than meat–maybe something like the raw milk diet or a semi-long term potato diet?
I don't think I really had acne, but my skin was completely free off blemishes when I ate no carbohydrates. I didn't end up feeling so good though. I think it was in that big long book about starvation.
@ Undertow,
I think if you tested low free testosterone, that alone could be your problem and fortunately, is a relatively easy fix.
http://www.testocreme.com/
I was convinced I had low free T based on my symptoms,(sex drive non existent, losing muscle mass,loss of feeling of well being,joint pains) but I was tested and came back high normal—i was shocked and frankly, disheartened–i thought a solution had finally been found. The Doc said i could have a neurotransmitter deficiency, which, considering i was paleo and using ephedrine for 8 years, is a real possibility. I'm seeing the doc next month, but eating starches has really turned me around–not 100%, but definitely a positive change.
look into HRT for that low T–The testimonials are inspiring.
Would like your advice guys. My temps are pretty good and have managed to lose 6lbs over past 3 months, simply because it is summer and I have been eating less easily in the heat and playing lots of tennis and hiking (haven't lifted weights in a couple of months). my macros are nearer 40%F, 30%C, 30%P (tho I add carbs around sport if needed) if i let them fall naturally. but having read so much for weeks about high carb low fat i thought I would give it a go. Have kept cals about the same but dropped fat to between 25-35gr per day and protein to around 60-70gr per day the rest has been carbs from potatoes, corn, oats and homemade spelt bread.. In ten days I have gone up 3.5lbs, and 3cm on my waist and am continually bloated. Any others have similar experiences? Should I give it longer or go back to what was working before? I don't feel any more or less energetic.
forgot to add that my temperatures have also dropped by around 2?C which i really wasn't expecting.
Candice and Kaylin,
When to start on the weight-loss is a highly personal assessment. To some extent I think you just "know". I did HED to recover from restrictive low-carb and overexercising. My glucose tolerance and adrenal function had deteriorated. I've been supplementing with Brewer's Yeast, Vitamin C, Stress Complex vitamins, etc. I gained maybe 15 to 20 pounds, probably a fair amount of that as fat.
Recently (past month or two), I've noticed less desire to take supplements, which makes me think the adrenals are doing much better although I don't think they're all the way yet. Also, I've had less desire for overall calories or fat-sweet combinations. I'm not being restrictive (I eat ice cream or chocolate here and there) and I don't like the high-carb approach.
I guess it's maybe a more Gabriel Method approach. I'm just trying to be really in tune with what my body wants, when it's telling me to eat, when it's not. I've been very slowly (emphasis on slowly) losing weight and inches. I think this is the way to go. I'm also monitoring morning temps and fasting blood glucose. Sometimes the appetite is difficult for me to gauge exactly and then my morning temps will dip .5F or more for a day but overall I seem to be on a good trend. I think it's good to pig out once in a while as well.
Mostly you gotta play this be ear because nobody's familiar with your exact situation but you. Just be patient and try to assimilate what your body is trying to tell you.
As for sweet tooth, I have a hard time coming down on either side of the argument here. I think using sugar (or fruit) probably has merit and it's probably not a good idea to be too restrictive against a sweet tooth. My intuition is that the more healed you are, the lower the sweet tooth.
Jedi,
I have attempted the high carb a few times and had wildly high blood sugar. I'd probably have to follow this through until blood sugar corrected itself, but I don't want to fall into a restrictive diet again. I also find it more difficult to gauge appetite and satiety with the high starch approach. And I haven't seen that it's necessary for fat loss. Seriously, listen to Jon Gabriel and learn to tune into your body as far as that goes. Granted I don't have much to get rid of but I'd like to get back to my original leanness just to prove it's possible. I think that would be really amazing and prove a lot as far as obesity research if a number of us here are able to do it, so I'm highly motivated. That probably makes me a lot less inclined to feel deprived. If I get there, I'll probably be experimenting more to see how sustainable it is and how much junk I can eat. But I have a stronger long term goal of having a quality relationship with food (like the French).
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Yet… my comment posted anyway. Hooray for the intarweb.
@Chris
Thanks for the link, I will look into that, I did test low free T. The range was 30 to 90 and I scored a 35. I am hoping to raise my T levels naturally, which should happen as the metabolism heals, along with, extra sleep, intense heavy lifting, high carbs, etc… From what I read, lowcarb lowers free T. So my one year VLC screwed me there. Also zinc with copper is good to take for low T, but should not be taken for long periods.
So started pounding fruit last night, and will continue for the next while, I will report back what happens. See if this can ignite some basal temp changes, and heal my busted adrenals.
I am eating as a fruit meal snack in between my starch/fat/protein meals. Mainly bananas, apples, grapes, melon, mango, and berries for now.
AaronF: Great comment. That's just what I needed to hear this morning. Especially about listening to your body and having a healthy relationship with food. Those are both things I'm working on as well.
@ John
"Does anyone have a success story regarding his/her skin with an extremely restricted diet other than meat–maybe something like the raw milk diet or a semi-long term potato diet?"
I haven't done any restricted diet, but had severe eczema on my legs and arms, along with the usual "teenage pimples" in my face, which all has been "replaced" by baby soft skin by doing the high-fat/moderate-carb HED for a couple of months, and is retained perfectly with the high starch/low fat meals I have been doing the last month or two.
All though i can now eat potatoes completely as-they-are, and have done it alot, I wouldn't call it a restrictive kind of thing..
Aaron, thanks for the comment, yes I think I will return to simply trying to be more instinctive and listen to my body. I am not convinced High carb+low fat is the best option for everyone and it seems a shame to undo months of good work. As a french resident I do agree that food is far more for me than just macronutrients :)
As for fruit, I have no problems with it, but my personal preference is for breakfast.
undertow: "Thanks Ian, I do eat Peat style now, just starch over sucrose being the only point not really followed."
I think Ray Peat's views are more nuanced than some people give him credit for. My feeling, based on people who have consulted Ray, is that he recommends sugars to some people and starches to others. It depends on their unique problems. He doesn't give out cookie-cutter advice, like some diet gurus (AV, for example), telling everyone to eat basically the same few foods.
Sorry I've been MIA lately. Working on a big project the last couple of days.
This is an amazing thread for the individuality argument. Especially when it comes to individualizing diet and lifestyle to achieve healing of a specific condition.
It's so funny that people have mentioned body composition improvements, increased energy, and decreased acne by increasing fruit consumption. That is about the most foreign thing I could ever hope to relate to.
In fact Aurora's jaw was hurting 2 weeks ago so she went to drinking banana and milk smoothies exclusively for a week. Her skin is almost always porcelain. By day 5 she was completely littered with acne – all over her face, her back – everywhere!
During the same time I started eating some fruit in the morning and in between meals later in the day and I gained fat and lost muscle instantly and had to stop.
On sugars displacing PUFA, that is dead on. When sugars hit the liver they are converted to palmitic acid-based triglyceride that displaces PUFA or "linoleate" as it is referred to. This is not just true of fructose, but of all simple sugars including glucose. Starch blunts triglyceride production, and behaves very differently than other carbohydrates.
However, every researcher on the face of the planet except one (Ray Peat) believes that increasing triglycerides and serum saturated fat (palmitic acid) content is a bad thing – especially when this trend patterns a rise in VLDL and a drop in HDL.
It's considered common knowledge that high levels of palmitic acid cause insulin resistance (and potentially leptin resistance as well):
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12841357
http://endo.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/142/8/3590
But, we must also consider that the conversion of simple sugar to palmitic acid is more limited in the absence of calorie surplus – which may be one reason why many report doing great eating sugar and fruit by itself, but do poorly when it is combined with other food, especially lots of fat.
Exercise recommendations really depend on a person's history and physiology as well. I am, admittedly, a little biased towards low exercise load because of my extensive high-exercise history. Exercise affects me very differently from what you hear from most people. Exercise of any kind ALWAYS increases my weight set point.
But I believe this stems from my long exercise history. When your body has to adapt to keep from losing weight burning 4,000 calories per day from physical exertion, the rules change. My body has an instant and very powerful hypometabolic and hyperphagic reaction to exercise – including sprints, plyometrics, high-intensity circuits, HIIT, HIT, and other forms of what would be considered ideal forms of exercise for improving metabolism and lowering weight set point.
Don't get me wrong, exericse, overall, is probably a fantastic thing. Your typical person could achieve better balance and health from doing more than doing less.
But not me.
In fact, I keep having to stop exercising to continue losing fat. In June I had no change in weight exercising about 15 hours per week. In July I lost 5 pounds doing about 2 hours per week.
This month I tried to do more weightlifting and started running sprints and did a few hikes and gained 2-3 pounds of fat.
But I've lost it all in a week omitting it.
Hey Jedi
It looks that you found out that a sudden change did not work for you – at least in the direction you tried.
If you Google LoBAG30, you can find studies relating how diets using your macronutrient ratios are being used to treat Type 2 Diabetics. In their canon it is regarded as High Protein.
Just continue eating a la Francais, or is it Francaise ?
But that is the theme of this post, particularly with the emphasis that Bass places on creating your own program and lifestyle (and presumably diet as well) and owning it.
You "find what works for you" in the words of JT, which I would agree with as long as one doesn't cater to certain weaknesses, get duped into thinking a low-carb diet is helping them out because their skin cleared and they felt energized (like I did, to my eventual demise), or think that "x" diet or type of exercise that causes me to lose weight is "the answer."
Things are just more complicated than that, and it depends on a person's goals. If my goal is to maintain a healthy weight without having to exercise much or count calories, then doing what JT is doing (low-calorie eating + high exercise volume) would be the worst possible strategy ever.
If I wanted to look like Scott Abel, then spending my day in front of the computer and eating a diet that lowers my body temperature and increases my appetite (I'm thinking Cheesecake with strawberry topping, beer, Coca Cola, French fries, and orange juice) would be the worst possible strategy ever.
Will-
I too got no love from white rice and had to stop eating it. I would eat about double per meal to get the same satiation that I got from meals of beans, potatoes, and whole grains.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12841357
This study fed rats palmitic acid, which is a fractionated fat. Their other food was probably PUFA oils, refined starch, refined sugar, and refined protein. There is no proof that real food diets will have the same effect. The other study which you cited said arachidonic acid is able to negate the effect. So, the people who should worry are vegans who don't eat arachidonic acid.
"Surprisingly, arachidonic acid instead showed a protective effect on palmitic acid- and stearic acid-induced cell apoptosis."
http://endo.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/142/8/3590
I'm surprised to see you referring to studies as proof of anything. I don't see any proof except that an artificial diet caused an alleged problem which might not occur with real foods. If you believe studies then many studies say that "even a little saturated fat is bad." When you dig deeper, you find that what those studies actually say is that combining saturated fat with PUFAs is bad. Cancer increases when you feed animals something like tallow mixed with safflower oil. When you feed them tallow by itself, cancer doesn't occur.
http://cancerres.aacrjournals.org/cgi/reprint/45/5/1997
@AaronF
Thanks for the response.
I had become hypothyroid and had lots of hormonal issues which is why I decided to try this approach. I tested poorly on a Spectracell Glucose-Insulin Interaction test and so started supplementing with Chromium as recommended. Maybe I should start testing fasting glucose.
I have also noticed my temp dips some mornings – do you find that happens when you eat too little or too much. I definitely ate a lot yesterday and it was down this morning. My weight was up again and I'm now approaching a 12lb gain which I know is fat because inches are all up as is BF% … and clothes don't fit!
You definitely hit the nail on the head about the "sweet tooth" – I have noticed a big improvement in cravings for "sweet" treats – no uncontrollable binges in a while. Also less cravings for coffee. I have noticed and improvement in my moods but I am not that "in touch" with my body and have a hard time figuring out what it needs as opposed to what I want. I don't feel like I can trust that I will just "know".
I'm also struggling with how much of the various macronutrient ratios work best for me. I think my tolerance for carbs (starches) is probably not great because of the glucose-insulin issue.
I think I need to read some more about the Gabriel Method. I also think I'm too impatient and get frustrated with slow weight loss.
Will just keep reading and learning and try to be more patient and tune my "listening" to my body.
-C
On stanky pits…
I have had huge changes in body odor throughout my dietary escapades. Here is a brief history. I cannot pinpoint rhyme or reason to any of these changes:
1) Puberty to 19 – Ate SAD, had no body odor. I was even known for having no body odor even after playing a football game.
2) 19-26 – Hippie semi-vegetarian phase. Increase in body odor, but not horrendous, just general 3 days without a shower funk.
3) 26-30 – WAPF/Schwarzbein boner phase (and spend too much time in front of computer phase begun). Body odor unbelievably bad at first. Disappears with exercise of over 4 hours per day but returns with sedantarism within 72 hours. Funky stank lasts until HED at age 31. Noticed the entire time that with added carbs came improved body odor.
4) HED – Much less body odor, but still a little funky, especially if on the computer all day with little or no exercise. Nothing abnormal. Was still able to stop using deodorant that I used only during phase 3 of my life.
5) Milk diet – Funky smell. Sour. So gross.
6) Fruit only diet – the ONLY way I have eaten with literally no odor whatsoever. Wouldn't even need to do laundry on this diet. No smell on clothes even after a 6-hour hike. Many fruit fanatics report this – like Michael Arnstein in some vids we were passing around a while back.
7) Current diet – Very little body odor, but not as low as the fruit diet.
My only conclusions are that there are 4 primary factors in my own body odor:
1) Increases and decreases in proportion to meat/fish/dairy intake.
2) Body odor has an inverse relationship with my carbohydrate intake
3) Sitting in front of the computer all day makes it worse, so do heated arguments – suggesting that it may have some stress hormone link (which would make sense seeing that low-carb raised body odor big time)
4) Fruit and sugar seem to lower body odor, but only dramatically so when I eat exclusively fruit – which also happens to be very low in all-source protein.
Ian-
Glad to have you back. I was not linking to studies to provide proof of anything. I think studies are pretty stupid, and the worst possible way to come to any kind of conclusion on anything.
But palmitic acid is generally regarded as something that raises insulin and leptin resistance – and the palmitic acid levels in triglyceride seem to be raised most effectively by sucrose, fructose, and glucose in simple form but not starch.
Candice-
My personal bias is that if you have a glucose metabolism issue, it will be improved the most by eating a very high carbohydrate diet to improve glucose tolerance and insulin sensitivity. Starches with resistant starch and lots of fiber would probably be the best sources. There's a reason why Joel Fuhrman has found it to be more effective to put type 2's on a diet of "beans and greens."
I don't do well with white rice either. My temp drops .6 degrees when I overfeed with white rice instead of homemade, whole wheat, soaked bread or muffins (Nourishing Traditions style). I have to eat soooooo much rice and I still feel hungry. That's not normal. My digestion is also much better when I eat whole grain breads (soaked or sourdough).
I can tell in the morning whether my temp is going to be high or not. I can feel whether I'm "running" or not. This morning I just felt blah, had a cloudy headache (which is typical for me when my thyroid is "off") and didn't feel like my internal furnace was really burning. It's interesting and so informative to watch my patterns and the way my body responds to different foods.
I'm trying to be patient to lose this 15-20 lbs I gained on HED. I overdid the fat in the beginning. It's hard to eat low fat when you're used to low-carbing. Christmas and 2 family weddings are only months away and sometimes I'm so tempted to starve myself and exercise to death. *sigh* Patience.
Amen Kaylin and yea bread. I've been eating more Ezekiel bread with good results and making little hockey puck wheat cakes out of fresh-ground (WAP-style, not to be confused with NT/WAPF-style) wheat berries.
I think there's something to the stress hormone body odor link. Mine's much worse when I'm around lots of people. I'm an introvert. I like my space.
And thanks, AaronF. I agree that it's highly individual. I've had the same experience with supplements. It used to be I didn't feel like I could function without my handful of pills. Now I constantly forget to take them.
What do you mean WAP style? Have you found some long lost recipe from the man himself that I don't know about? If so, do share!!!!
Matt:
"During the same time I started eating some fruit in the morning and in between meals later in the day and I gained fat and lost muscle instantly and had to stop…
"This month I tried to do more weightlifting and started running sprints and did a few hikes and gained 2-3 pounds of fat."
Unless you did an MRI, under-water weighing, or something like that, I don't see how you can determine so precisely short-term changes in body fat and muscle. It's just as likely that you gained/lost mostly water. To say that you gained fat and lost muscle instantly is clear hyperbole. I'm skeptical of those studies cited by people like vegan master that "starches build more muscle" than sugars. Gorillas have an awful lot of muscle and I don't see them eating cooked starch. It is possible that starches make the muscles retain glycogen and water, so they appear larger. Unless you have an MRI scan, anything else is based on assumptions, IMO. You may have more fat and less muscle than you think. Changes in hydration or glycogen levels could explain your observations much simpler than the idea of instantaneous muscle loss and fat gain or that exercise made you lose muscle. By what mechanism can exercise make you lose muscle, unless you under-ate?
I just want to make a general comment here. I no we seem to have come full circle and some people are joking about "360 degree health", but there is still an important distinction. USDA guidelines still stress macronutrients and do not advocate real food.
One of the most important aspects of real food is micronutrient content and this has a real correlation to flavor. I can go across the street to my favorite little shop and buy oranges that are the best ever, or I can get them at the grocery store. The grocery store oranges are good, but to me, they're still like chewing on fiber.
As for the potato, I had an interesting experience of this the other day. I was eating Polish style dinner with some friends prepared by my friend Milla. Everybody was raving about the potatoes so I asked her how she did them. Very simple. Boil them and toss in butter, but the ingredients are important. The secret was that the potatoes came from the farmers' market, not the grocery store.
So this is what it means to tune into our bodies, appreciate natural flavors, and eat real foods. It's totally different than eating 100 cal Skinny Cow ice cream cones or Quaker low-fat whatevers, which somehow I imagine fit into standard nutritional dogma.
Candice,
As for getting more in touch with food, I have no specific guideline on this. I don't cook much and rely heavily on standby's and easy foods. I think the more you just get into preparing your own food, the more you have a feel for what you want. Like you'll start to feel hungry and an image will pop into your head. So maybe it's half about exploration and half about being in tune. Hope that's helpful. I do waste food buying what I think I'll want and then not eating it later. That happened with strawberries, then onions. But then I got all into sweet potato fries, so after sitting around for a while, they're suddenly all used up.
On palmitic acid/sat fat and insulin resistance, Stephan has a nice post on long term trials
http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2010/02/saturated-fat-and-insulin-sensitivity.html
In any case insulin restistance is a complicated topic. Yes, free fatty acids (especially saturated) increase it, but if free fatty acids are being used as energy, then so what…Why would you want to lower blood sugar at the same time you're using fatty acids for energy?** "Insulin resistance" just implies glucose is being spared for cells that want/need it.
Also, saturated fats protect against alchohol or fructose induced liver damage while PUFAs don't (see Hyperlipid cirrhosis posts). So, the idea that saturated fats cause blood sugar "problems" is perfectly understandable.
**This is assuming you're not a diabetic, in which case you shouldn't have eaten whatever gave you the high blood glucose in the first place.
Kaylin-
No, just taking cheap shots at the WAPF, because Weston A. Price (and McCarrison, and Pottenger…) didn't utter a damn word about sprouting or fermentation, which are not themes repeatedy everywhere. The theme this is repeated, and that old-schoolers stressed above all else was grinding the grain fresh on the spot.
Ian-
Muscle can be broken down from exercise from a huge rise in catabolic hormones. Muscle loss from sugar eating, in my case, stems from muscle insulin resistance and an inability to get protein into muscle cells because of it – which for me triggers catabolism and a big increase in appetite that causes fat gain.
I can gain as much as 5 pounds of fat in a single week eating BELOW appetite when sugar is a big part of a mixed diet.
If the weight gain came from an increase in water, then why did my muscles all visibly deflate – and why did all the "water" go to my stomach and love handles so that my pants barely fit?
Actually, my body immediately starts to revert to the skinny fat body I had prior to eating a very low sugar diet.
I have tested this dozens of times. Eating sugar or fruit (fruit being worse for me than refined sugar) as part of a mixed diet causes me to:
1) Lose muscle and strength
2) Increase appetite
3) Decrease body temperature
4) Decrease energy levels
5) Increase body fat, especially around the waist
In fact on a trip in April I had trouble getting my shorts on by the 5th day and couldn't sleep at night due to hunger pangs and came back with a .5 degree drop in body temperature.
So Matt, you're not doing your fruit-only meals, anymore?
How the hell do you note big changes in your body so quickly, like that?? Losing muscle and gaining fat instantly? It would take me ages to determine something like that. Unless I was weighing myself and measuring my whole body daily. Which I won't do. I've done enough of that sort of thing and I don't want to reintroduce something I could get obsessive about.
I too find white rice to be unsatisfying. I mean it's delicious, but yeah, I have to eat a truckload of it to feel full. Even basmati. I actually find the same is true for pasta – even the whole grain varieties. Which is a shame because it's much easier to make things delicious when you can use white rice and pasta.
OK, you just answered part of my question right there.
Ian,
"…Gorillas have an awful lot of muscle and I don't see them eating cooked starch…"
Ha, this reminds me of Mcdougall saying that since horses have lots of muscle and don't eat protein, we shouldn't either. Anyone want to continue with that logic and go on a super-muscle-building hay/grass diet?
I agree though: It's too hard to closely monitor changes in body fat and muscle in the short term because of the variables you mentioned (hydration, glycogen, etc).
Matt, even though WAP didn't mention sprouting or fermenting, you have to admit that since instant yeast has only been around in recent years, traditional societies fermented their baked products because they had no choice. Sourdough was the only way to make it rise and thus, it was fermented/soaked. I do grind my own grains, so that is an added bonus, but when I eat my mom's bread, which is from freshly ground flour but raised quickly with instant yeast I don't digest it nearly as easily.
I recently prepared a medieval-style dinner for my family with authentic recipes and found a 16th century recipe for bread. I found the instructions extremely interesting. It said that the bread should be fermented for just the right amount of time… not too long as it would be too sour, but long enough or it would be too difficult to digest. Even people 500 years ago understood the importace of digestion! And Americans think they're so much smarter than everyone in the Dark Ages. ;-) My son's teeth also dramatically improve when I feed him long-fermented breads.
I do agree thought, that NT has taken a lot of liberties with Dr. Price's work and after reading his book, I don't see the emphasis on the fats that NT emphasizes. I suspect that's Mary Enig's influence, with her PhD in fat research.
Yes John, that's why my focus is on metabolic activity, which increases the rate of lipolysis and therefore the rate at which free fatty acids are used as fuel vs. being put into storage. This is why, as people bring body temps up, it gets increasingly difficult to store more fat than you burn.
The only catch is that lab animals that have the inability to manufacture trigs in the liver have extreme insulin and leptin sensitivity and have incredibly high metabolic rates, high activity levels, and low appetites due to the lack of free fatty acids in their blood.
I've been led to believe that a starch-based diet is the ideal, especially unrefined starch high in fiber and resistant starch which increases metabolic activity (always a plus, giving one more freedom to eat more fat and simple sugar) because it limits triglyceride formation while simultaneously limiting the amount of triglyceride entering the system in the form of ingested fat.
Likewise, the worst diet of all time is one high in omega 6 (reducing metabolic rate) and high in fructose (increasing free fatty acids). Believe me, you don't want a lot of free fatty acids and a low metabolism unless you want to store more fat than you burn. And I think it's this precise overproduction of trigs that causes liver cirrhosis which compounds problems.
Adding more palmitic acid into that hot mess probably makes things even worse.
But potentially the production of palmitic acid in the liver in the first place is enough to decrease metabolic rate, decrease physical activity, and increase appetite a la inducing insulin and leptin resistance.
But still, a lot of this depends on overconsumption of calories as Guyenet has also mentioned in his work on palmitic acid, which is why the activation of pleasure centers in the brain is so central as a root cause, as a susceptible person will spontaneously eat far more crack food than they will meat and fat – or whole intact grains on the other end of the spectrum like Clarence.
I agree Kaylin, but all over the Himalayas they grind it, mix it with a little water, knead it, and cook it in 5 minutes in rhe form of chapati. No sprouting and no fermenting.
Same in central America in parts where wheat is consumed as a staple. Ryan Koch recently witnessed this first hand.
I'm not saying fermentation isn't helpful or have its place. I'm just saying that making people phobic about eating grains that aren't "properly prepared" is unwarranted, and the least important message to deliver to most modern humans when it comes to making dietary and lifestyle changes. Most find it totally overwhelming.
Annabelle-
I'll probably still have me a fruit breakfast once or twice a week. I was originally going to do it because I planned to do a lot of hiking. When I stopped doing that, the fruit thing kinda faded. Of course, exercise burns free fatty acids and limits any negative effects of excess fructose consumption. I would agree wholeheartedly that simple sugar consumption is not much of an issue, metabolically-speaking, for an athlete – and may be preferable as even Lustig has mentioned.
Hey Matt,
Is the recipe for your wheat cakes similar to the chapati recipe on your kitchen site?
Matt:
"Muscle can be broken down from exercise from a huge rise in catabolic hormones."
Maybe you simply didn't eat enough or rest long enough. You are vague about how much exercise you do and exactly what protocols. Saying you do sprints means nothing. How long at what intensity and how often?
"Muscle loss from sugar eating, in my case, stems from muscle insulin resistance and an inability to get protein into muscle cells because of it – which for me triggers catabolism and a big increase in appetite that causes fat gain."
Yet you constantly claim to have gained muscle and lost fat just by eating lots of starch. So why are your muscles insulin sensitive one moment and insulin resistant the next? Why are cultures eating high starch usually thin without a lot of muscle mass? Ex: China, Japan, Thailand, Kitava, etc.
"I can gain as much as 5 pounds of fat in a single week eating BELOW appetite when sugar is a big part of a mixed diet."
Why are you eating below appetite? Why would you do that when you are continually warning others not to? How is it possible to gain 5# in a week while under-eating unless the metabolism drops to zero? I'm more inclined towards Dr. Elson Haas's false-fat theory. Most people are not as fat as they seem.
"If the weight gain came from an increase in water, then why did my muscles all visibly deflate – and why did all the "water" go to my stomach and love handles so that my pants barely fit?"
Your muscles could have just lost glycogen and your stomach bloated from allergies or other reasons. I still don't see how you determine with exact precision muscle losses and fat gains of a few pounds (in some cases simultaneously), within the course of a week to a month. I think it's more likely that things are not what they seem.
Matt:
"However, every researcher on the face of the planet except one (Ray Peat) believes that increasing triglycerides and serum saturated fat (palmitic acid) content is a bad thing – especially when this trend patterns a rise in VLDL and a drop in HDL."
Markers are meaningless. I've read that the Kitavans have bad markers in all of those areas, yet they're immune to Western diseases. All we can say is that the markers may be bad in a certain dietary/lifestyle context, namely a diet filled with PUFA oils, trans fats, HFCS, table sugar, interesterified fat, etc. I tend to ignore studies unless they look at total mortality and feed a variety of fat sources (not mixing SFAs with PUFAs and calling that a high SFA diet as most studies do).
Michael Miles of the Nutrition and Physical Regeneration blog has made the same argument on Beyond Price and elsewhere, that you can have "bad" markers and be immune to chronic diseases if you aren't eating the typical staples of SAD: namely PUFA oils, hydrogenated or interesterified fats, bleached and enriched flours, refined sugars…
Good point, Matt. I think the state of a person's digestion is key. For many, many people coming off of the Standard American Diet, whole, unfermented grains are just too hard to digest. Gluten sensitivity is a huge problem because of imbalanced gut flora and damaged intestinal villi, so if someone has the slightest problem digesting gluten (which is widespread due to people not taking care of their guts) then bloating will be the only result of overfeeding on whole wheat bread. I've been there. Muffin-top belly, incredibly itchy eczema, and all the problems that go along with it all. I've been able to move beyond all that thanks to GAPS, and am even happier to move beyond GAPS into more realistic eating habits.
I think it's sad that "gluten free" is the new buzz phrase and people who are trying to eat healthier but have no idea what they're doing choose "gluten free" like they chose "fat free" fifteen years ago.
Another point I wanted to mention… I used to get really discouraged when I woke up with a low temp, feeling like I had "failed". I try to think of it in a different way now. High temp, low temp, it's all information. A low temp tells me just as much as a high temp. I can tell by a low temp that whatever I ate the day before didn't work for me and I can move on knowing more about my body. It's a long process, but definitely worthwhile.
@Matt
Thanks for commenting. What's your thought on how long one would need to eat very high carb in order to see an improvement in glucose tolerance and insulin sensitivity? How soon would one start to lose weight instead of gain.
It is so hard for me to overcome my fear of starchy carbs and just seeing my weight go up. I am already way past my comfort zone and not fitting into many of my clothes.
Would oats and quinoa qualify as good starches? I believe they both are high in resistant starch.
WRT bread – there seems to be so much talk at the moment about how bad wheat is for us that I've been avoiding it like the plague. Seems like you don't buy into that.
I guess I may have been eating too much fat too – I have been eating a lot of cream cheese and hard cheeses. Maybe that's another issue to address.
"However, every researcher on the face of the planet except one (Ray Peat) believes that increasing triglycerides and serum saturated fat (palmitic acid) content is a bad thing – especially when this trend patterns a rise in VLDL and a drop in HDL"
That's some bullshit. Ray Peat doesn't think that. You don't understand what Peat's point is at all. I recommed you read his articles again and try to understand them.
Candice – cutting the fat has helped me with the weight gain. I'm not gaining anymore. I haven't lost yet either though. I think I loaded on the butter too much in the beginning. I feel your frustration. I'm so embarrassed to go out in public this weight, especially since this is the weight I used to be before losing 37 lb. on low-carb. For the first time in my life I was comfortable with my weight/size. I was soooo happy… until I gained half of it back. I'm getting really anxious to lose all this since I only have a few things to wear and I sure don't want to buy any more clothes this size.
Matt,
I don't do not eat a low calorie diet, I actually have to force feed myself to maintain my weight. I am currently trying to gain. I do follow a high volume exercise program (no cardio), but this has improved my health and physique more than any diet program. Like Jack Lalanne says "Exercise is king, diet is queen".
I agree with Ian, there is no way that you lost muscle and gained 5 pounds of fat in a week by eating less calories and exercising. If this is the case then you probably have a severe hormone deficiency. you probably looked softer because because you had low glycogen stores in the muscle, and maybe retained a little water under the skin.
Your biggest problem with exercise seems to be that you don't follow a well designed program. You either do the extreme of tons of high volume cardio, or some type of low volume HIT of a few exercises thrown together around the house. Both of these styles of exercise are the worst types you could do if your goal is improved body composition.
@john
I think the acne/lowcarb connection may be due to lower fiber, fructose and lactose consumption. I think people with the worst digestion tend to have the worst acne.
lowcarb could possibly circumvent poor digestion by not feeding dysfunctional gut flora.
Eating tons of fruit on the other hand, since I've heard fruit fasting and whatnot helps many peoples digestion, may also improve acne for that same reason.
Greensmu,
That's a nice idea. Regarding the fruit fast, are you saying the results are permanant? Since starch has no fructose (which can be a digestion trouble), perhaps a potato fast would be better.
JT,
Matt said he ate below appetite, not calorie maintenance (although it could be both)…
@Kaylin,
I so hear ya … you exactly echo how I am feeling. I also feel embarrassed because everyone has complimented me so much on losing weight and I felt so great being at 110-115 … aside from the hormonal issues. It was so great just feeling comfortable in my skin and feeling confident in any situation. My problem has been maintaining the weight loss – I've lost and gained the same 10-15 lbs a few times in the past year but basically I've been 'on diet' more often than not which is what I think killed my thyroid and caused all the issues I'd been having. I'm definitely not going to buy larger size clothes but have to shed some lbs before summer is over and I need to start wearing pants/jeans again. Yeah, I guess I also took the high everything diet to heart with everything but the starches. Lots of fat and lots of protein. I'm still not sure about fruit because at times I've pigged out on a whole bag of dried mango or dried apple chips and gained but then other times eating pretty much the same I've lost. It can be very frustrating because I feel like I'm looking for a needle in a haystack trying to figure out what types of foods/combination of foods/timing of foods is best. I guess the main thing is to just keep trying and eventually we'll get it all figured out.
@john
I'm thinking that fruit consumed raw should have bacteria on it that digest polysaccharides and maybe fructose. Supposedly the bacteria survive the digestive process in small quantities.
Sounded weird to me at first but that's what Dr. Ayers over at cooling inflammation thinks is the best way to diversify gut flora.
Will and Matt, re: white rice adding inches –
Does brown rice do the same thing for you? Since I'm avoiding flour because of bloating effects in me personally, rice has become a big staple in my house. It shares starch duty with potatoes about 50/50. But if it is interfering with fat loss, it's out of here. I don't mind the taste of brown rice at all, but switched to basmati a few weeks ago since it's supposed to be more resistant starchy. I guess.
I've made the RS3 salad twice now, which means I've downed 10 lbs of cold potatoes in the last 2 weeks, not including potatoes other ways. So far no fat is melting off. Temps staying about the same. I'm pretty frustrated on the weight loss front.
Please, no comments about I should just "do what works for me." The only thing that's ever worked for me, as far as fat loss is concerned, is LC. But that is unsustainable, so I've got to find some other way to get this fat off. Especially the belly fat, it's driving me mad. If it doesn't start to get the H out of here soon I might stab somebody.
OK, I probably won't stab anybody, but I WILL continue to ramp up the rhetoric of frustration. Try me.
HI Danyelle, I eat brown rice occasionally but because I was eating so much rice, it was just much easier to make Minute Rice (5 minutes) vs. brown rice (about an hour). I don't think that there is much of a flavor difference between the two.
I would love to see a study that differentiates between different native diets (Kitavan, Okinawan, French, Mediteranean, Inuit, etc.) with actual people eating those diets, not markers based on those folks and the way they eat.
Ian, good to see you interjecting your thoughts to keep things in check…thanks.
Also, perhaps it was the types of fruits that I was eating via the Specific Carbohydrate Diet…I don't know.
Hey Matt,
Since eating more carbs recently I have noticed good strength and muscle size. Now I just need to lose the small tire around my waist. What do you suggest? Lots of potatoes, some meat and fat, little fruit, honey, and refined sugar? I feel like I am real close to finding what works for me! Thanks!
Betsy: "I suppose that you could say that anything may have caused it, but when Ross Horne cut out the grains and started eating raw fruit, the arthritis went away."
I think it's a combination of the grains increasing the need for fat soluble vitamins and a diet which eliminates them. Vegan diets are a disaster, esp grain-based ones. A raw vegan diet will take longer to cause deficiencies, assuming it's not all or mostly fruit. There are healthy cultures that ate grains, including wheat, but they were not vegan. I'm sure some people could thrive with very little animal fat and protein – maybe even none, if they eliminated anti-nutrients.
John, I wasn't accusing you of any thing. There are zero-carb zealots who make absurd arguments and they know who they are. For ex: one guy started an article thus: "Now that we know why all carbohydrates are bad for heart disease…" And the people who read Taubes who ignores the actual insights of people like T.L. Cleave and offers a distorted view which Cleave never subscribed to. They are just as much zealots.
Rice does not cause fat gain. Excess calories cause fat gain. Plenty of bodybuilders get lean eating rice. Lets not forget about asia either. You will not gain more fat if you eat rice instead of mashed potatoes. Many people do not tolerate potatoes or yams very well.
Will,
How can you eat minute rice as a staple. If you are going to eat rice as a staple then you need to get some decent stuff.
Ian,
What about all of the healthy macrobiotic guys that eat a mostly vegan grain based diet. Madonna still looks pretty good for her age.
JT: "What about all of the healthy macrobiotic guys that eat a mostly vegan grain based diet. Madonna still looks pretty good for her age."
Are you serious? I mean, really? Madonna looks like the Crypt Keeper. Just thinking about her veiny hands makes me shudder. There's a reason God put more fat on women, and she's the perfect example of why.
Hey JT,
Yeah, I know…that's why I said that I didn't know if it was the rice vs. potatoes or the absence of the crappy rice, LOL! Or the increase in fruit. I had several variable going on there at the same time. Still having my daily wine too, LOL!!!!
@ Real Will: Definitely the crappy rice. Mainly because it takes so much of the stuff to get satisfaction as oppose to taters or oats etc….
This fruit discussion is driving me crazy, too much info on both sides. Personally fruit can have varying effects on me depending on the time of day and which fruit I eat and what I eat it with. In terms of fat/weight gain it makes very little difference although it does amp up appetite…..
Jt,
How do you get your calcium?
Rosenfelt: I think he chews eggshells
…while they're still in the chicken! :-P
JT,
"What about all of the healthy macrobiotic guys that eat a mostly vegan grain based diet. Madonna still looks pretty good for her age."
Perhaps the outside appearance is deceiving. It's not hard to imagine a vegan diet being deficient in choline and/or methionine http://www.jlr.org/cgi/content/full/47/10/2280#BIB47
there are no 'healthy' macrobiotic guys.,and that's w/o even discussing the mental issues.
i taught at the macrobiotic center in NYC.
the women tended to struggle w their weight even if they had great success in the beginning.
the men were often skinny, spineless, reptilian creatures.
of course, if you really followed the idea that macrobiotics is about balance, you might eat more animal protein along w greens. those peop kept a better body comp.
same w cancer…there would often be a 'remission' after changing from SAD then in a year or so it would come back w a vengence. about the same as chemo and such.
there seems to be some debate re rice vs potatoes.
i do not understand how this got started since potatoes have much more protein than rice. really a better profile altogether even if you have to eat 8 cups to acheive that.
if you are just trying to add carbs, then it doesn't matter.
i think Bass has proven what many others have experienced; this diet causes arthritis and lipid imbalance.
the arthritis is probably caused by the body's inability to make collagen so cartilage is lost.
just proves that appearance is not everything.
but look how long this took; afterall he's in his 70's. maybe we can eat whatever whole foods diet we want and even add a cup of sugar and still be okay to that age.
i will be curious to see if La lane starts having the same problems. he didn't start to change to a more vegetarian diet until pretty late.
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Hi jem,
Did you know that Jack LaLanne just had a heart valve replacement last year? I think he's recovered and back to exercising but I was shocked when I heard that. Maybe it was the low amount of animal products in his diet…don't know.
"Did you know that Jack LaLanne just had a heart valve replacement last year? I think he's recovered and back to exercising but I was shocked when I heard that. Maybe it was the low amount of animal products in his diet…don't know."
Or it could just be that he is 95 and things tend to wear out? His dad died of a heart attack late 40's or early 50's. His mother lived to her 90's.
In his book he says he went vegetarian as a teen. Later on while competing in bodybuilding he found he needed the protein from meat to build muscle and went back to eating meat. After his competition years he then went back to partial vegetarian only eating occasional fish. I had read about his "occasional" fish consumption before and he also mentioned it in an interview. But after reading his book I think by occasional he means once or twice per week rather than daily. But in his sample menus which he used to give on his T.V. show, he would suggest chicken and meat. He didn't eat it but never suggested anyone else shouldn't.
about the "healthy" macrobiotics:
http://www.news.com.au/entertainment/celebrity/fad-diet-leaves-gwyneth-paltrow-with-brittle-bones/story-e6frfmqi-1225884720682
Also some of he macro "celebrities" such as Michio Kushi got cancer, his wife and daughter died from it, William Dufty also died from cancer, though at age 86.
Michio got cancer, too? Do you know what kind? I wonder what it is about the diet that the whole family got it. That would be good to figure out. I had heard his wife died of cancer, and that finally set me completely free from thinking that I should keep on and on and on trying it.
I was grouchy the whole time I was on it, I craved sweets, I was always having some sort of terrible pain, I felt like I was in a daze, sometimes I got so skinny people thought I was going to die. But I have a sister who has been on it for many years, and she has done much better on it. She looks excellent, but she can't eat many calories without gaining weight. She always craves chocolate and coffee, and usually does have at least 1 large cup of coffee every day. She's still healthy, beautiful, and strong, though.
http://www.news.com.au/entertainment/celebrity/fad-diet-leaves-gwyneth-paltrow-with-brittle-bones/story-e6frfmqi-1225884720682
Thought I had posted it yesterday. So much for the healthy macrobiotics… Michio Kushi also got cancer, I read that his wife & daughter died from it, too. William Dufty died from cancer too, albeit at 86.
Oh, ok, now I can see my post from yesterday… weird.
I don't know what kind of cancer he got… Maybe you can find out googling it. It could just run in the family and not be diet related? But anyway, he claimed to be able to prevent cancer with diet, so…
I recall reading some macros discussing his cancer, and they said it was because he was too yin from eating raw salads etc… yeah right…
I was also following a macro forum for a while and a lot of people seem to have cravings for sweets on the diet. There are so many recipes for "macrobiotic" sweets on there and people admit to cheat on chocolate a lot.
Interestingly, Ohsawa's wife Lima became quite old (maybe she is still alive? no idea…) In her cookbook, she does have a bunch of recipes that contain egg and seefood, but almost no sweet stuff. Her recipes for dessert have apples, sometimes raisins and other fruit, but only in one recipe she suggests using "raw sugar". I also read that she liked desserts the least at her macro cooking competitions. Maybe this is just mental gymnastics, but could this support the starch + PUFA > sugar + PUFA idea?
Interestingly, AV also admits to blood sugar problems in his book. He explicitely writes that he has to keep a couple of dates for the blood sugar crash after eating something else… I guess some fruit and or starch with butter and honey, not sure what exactly. Obviously his cure-all diet didn't HEAL anything in regards to his blood sugar issues.
@ Luming
So are you eating all your carbs as sugars? What does such a diet look like? Or are you still cheating with the women's clothing, I mean starchy foods sometimes? Does eating sugar really help with the ladies?
Why do you think refined sugar will be superior to fruit? Is that a Peatarian thing?
i have known mr bass a long time through his writings. i have got to know him personally as he is an extremely approachable and reasonable man who shares info with others freely. i have benefited from his ongoing research and reviews of topics. His books are extremely sensible, practical and he is non dogmatic. similar to mr stone, he adapts concepts into a reasonable format that is useful for those of us living regular lives with work, family pressures etc. he is a proponent of whole foods, balanced exercise, and above all making sure you enjoy your food and training. he probably eats almost 2x more in a day by volume than many 20 year olds. as an ortho trauma surgeon, we recommend his books and websites to many of our patients to help them develop positive, sustainable habits for their long term rehabilitation. his writings are pretty non commercial so you really have to read the stuff in entirety to get the full flavor. i have no financial connection, but i believe his work is uniquely rational in many ways and well worth exploration. tx for reviewing his work and for many others whom i have been exposed to through this excellent website.