By My last post focused on the propagation of the inflammatory signal, and how nutrients such as omega-6 PUFAs and the lack of salicylic acid results in amplification of that signal, thus contributing to the overall increase in inflammation-related disease we currently experience.
But what about the initiation of the inflammatory signal in the first place? That often turns out to be due to a widespread deficiency in the amino acid glycine, which I described in an earlier post. Glycine acts as a sort of “cellular voltage regulator”, preventing the inappropriate initiation of inflammation in response to cellular injury. (Inflammation is really only appropriate when there is infection taking place.)
But if glycine is the most abundant amino acid in the body, and it is nonessential?i.e., the human body can make it from scratch?why should anyone be deficient, especially nowadays, when the dietary intake of protein is usually so high?
As Matt Stone often says, it is really a matter of context; a matter of balance, rather than a matter of absolutes. Glycine is so abundant that it comprises about 22% by weight of the most abundant protein in the body. That protein would be collagen, the tough, extracellular fibrous protein that makes up the bones, cartilage and all the connective tissues. Hence, the collagen?and therefore most of the glycine?is the part of the meat, fish and poultry that we usually throw away. Bone broth is one way to recover it in the diet, and when the collagen is boiled out of the bones and purified, it is called gelatin.
But even though we discard most of the glycine from our animal flesh foods, we are still taking some in with our muscle meats, so that still doesn’t explain a widespread glycine deficiency. But in fact, the consumption of muscle meats actually exacerbates the deficiency because of the amino acid content of the muscle meats. Specifically, muscle meats are very rich in the essential amino acid methionine, and it is an understanding of the intimate relationship between methionine and glycine that provides the answer to this question of balance.
A problem with traditional nutritional thinking on amino acids is the rigid classification of those which are essential, as opposed to those which are non-essential; in particular, a disproportionate interest in the former v. the latter. Methionine, in particular, has long been known to play key roles in metabolism independent of its role as a constituent of proteins. Specifically, methionine?when activated to form S-adenosylmethionine (SAMe), is the universal methyl group donor, which adds a one-carbon methyl group (CH3 group) to a variety of important metabolic intermediates, including DNA bases and neurotransmitters.
So fundamental is this role of methylation, that the body (essentially, the liver) has numerous pathways of conserving, recycling, and salvaging methionine, so that it can withstand long periods of reduced methionine intake. So intense has been the emphasis on the essentiality of methionine, that methionine deficiencies have been hypothesized to underlie a number of pathologies, including cancer. But nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, typical Westerners consume about 10 times more methionine than is needed to support good health. (We really only need about 300 ? 500 mg per day of methionine: more like the daily requirement for a B vitamin than a bulk nutrient!) Over 20 years’ worth of animal research has shown that laboratory animals (rats and mice) live substantially longer and healthier lives if their normal methionine intake is reduced by 80%. Moreover, it is now understood that metabolically, far from salvaging, recycling and regenerating methionine, the body switches gears and gets rid of most of the methionine absorbed from a typical high-protein meal.
What’s that got to do with glycine? The answer is remarkably simple: There is only one metabolic pathway that exists in the human body to get rid of excess methionine. That pathway?via the enzyme glycine-N-methyltransferase (GNMT)?uses up glycine in the process.
In Figure “a” below, we see a typical description of what is called the methionine cycle. It is my own version (I originally published these diagrams at the Annual Meeting of the Federation of American Societies for Experimental Biology [FASEB] in 2011.), but it typically shows how methionine is recycled, in order to conserve it maximally. I say typical, because this is the only metabolic picture generally shown in textbook descriptions of the methionine cycle. And it is accurate insofar as it applies when methionine levels are low, like when there is no methionine coming in from the diet, so methionine needs to be conserved.
In this metabolic diagram, the green arrows refer to active metabolic pathways, and the dotted black arrows refer to inactive or minimally active pathways; the red, upper case abbreviations stand for enzymes (e.g., GNMT), whereas the names and abbreviations in black are metabolic intermediates (e.g., SAMe). The heavy red dotted line shows a metabolic brake or inhibition (i.e., an “off switch”) of GNMT by an intermediate called MeTHF. MeTHF is a form of folic acid which recharges the intermediate amino acid homocysteine (Hcy) by adding a methyl group to it, thus regenerating methionine. The presence of MeTHF is a signal that methionine is being regenerated because it is scarce, and it specifically turns off GNMT so that methionine is not wasted in this time of need. The SAMe that is generated is available for essential processes, such as the methylation of DNA bases, as shown by the green arrow across the top of the diagram.
But what is not generally appreciated by biochemists and nutritionists is that when methionine is abundant, especially when methionine is being absorbed after a high-protein meal, the liver’s metabolic machinery switches gears (like it does in the transition after a high carb meal, when it switches from regenerating glucose to getting rid of glucose), working maximally to get rid of the excess methionine.
This situation is illustrated in Figure “b” below. In this diagram are also shown the two metabolic “on switches” (Solid yellow arrows with star points) for enzymes. Specifically, the high concentration of methionine itself cranks up the activity of MAT, which turns methionine into SAMe at a much higher rate. Most of this SAMe is not needed for essential methylation reactions, such as making DNA bases, but is instead deliberately wasted by GNMT, which has been turned on by the release of the braking action of MeTHF (shown in figure “a”). That’s because MeTHF is no longer being made, because SAMe itself shuts off MTHFR, the enzyme that makes MeTHF. Meanwhile, SAMe also turns on the enzyme CBS, which diverts homocysteine (“used” methionine) into the production of downstream sulfur-containing compounds (a pathway called “transulfuration”), including cysteine and glutathione, now that the remethylation (regeneration) of methionine has been turned off.
Note especially that in this high-methionine condition, glycine is required both for the action of GNMT (a pathway called “transmethylation”) and for the transsulfuration pathway, to make glutathione. In this mode, glycine can be made both from serine and from scratch (i.e., from CO2 and ammonia), through the operation of a glycine-serine cycle. However, the liver cannot keep up with the need for glycine when methionine intake is too high relative to glycine intake (i.e., when we eat lots of muscle meat without the accompanying collagen from the bones and connective tissues), and glycine levels end up being inadequate to properly regulate the immune system. The result: chronic inappropriate and/or excessive inflammation. The antidote: Eat enough glycine to balance the high intake of methionine. 8 grams per day is about right for the typical omnivorous diet.
* * * * *
About the Author
Joel Brind, Ph.D. has been a Professor of Biology and Endocrinology at Baruch College of the City University of New York for 28 years and a medical research biochemist since 1981. Long specializing in steroid biosynthesis and metabolism and endocrine-related cancers, he has specialized in amino acid metabolism in recent years, particularly in relation to glycine and one-carbon metabolism. In 2010 he founded Natural Food Science, LLC to make and market glycine supplement products via http://sweetamine.com , which includes his own blog HERE.
If my NOW whey isolate protein powder has 404mg of glycine in a serving, would that count towards the recommended daily 8g of glycine or should I use an isolated supplment of glycine only? Please help with an answer. Thanks for your time!
NOW (or any brand) whey protein isolate is basically a concentrated dairy protein, which tends to exacerbate glycine deficiency, just like most other animal protein foods. If you look at the label, you’ll also see that the NOW whey protein isolate also contains 560 mg of methionine, almost double the daily requirement! So I would say the short answer is no, that 404 mg would not count toward the 8,000 mg. the typical diet is short. FYI, sweetamine (my product) also contains proline and taurine, but its the net glycine that does the trick.
I’d like to add one other point about such “high quality Proteins” as found in whey protein isolates and muscle meats. That methionine is so critical for so many key metabolic functions explains why there is such redundancy in the body to recycle and regenerate and salvage it. But that also means that the body actually needs far less of it than exists in proportion to other amino acids. Thus, what is believed to be the highest of “high quality proteins”, with the same proportion of methionine as is found in the body among essential amino acids, actually provides far more methionine than is needed for optimal metabolic functioning and health.
I agree that the focus on “quality” protein can be problematic. I also think that protein that triggers greater anabolism/muscle growth does not mean that it is optimal for health, keeping inflammation down, etc. If I eat too much “quality” protein I immediately experience greater inflammation and increased injury proneness. And it’s important to note that I experienced this BEFORE learning about methionine/glycine. It’s not something I started noticing just because I researched it and started experiencing it in make-believe fashion.
Yep, I think balance is the key. Not focusing on either.
I love dairy, and feel very good from eating it. Haven’t thought about methionine with dairy, but, should i stop eating dairy, or just think about balance? I think the latter.
I also eat ruff meat (with lots of gelatinous parts)almost 100 % since I can’t afford the expensive muscle meat only-parts. And I make broth from gelatinous and meaty bones, consuming 1 C per day, straight off, or in a meal. I also take 2 TB of the Great Lakes hydrolyzed gelatin powder (I do not take a lot of supplements anymore, but this one I take).
I guess I get a good balance. When not eating at home, I can afford (healthwise I mean) to eat a bit of whatever.
From dairy I have never in my life experienced increased inflammation in any way. Almost more of the opposite. Maybe strange.
Why are people taking SamE ? This seems counter productive
This is so interesting! Yet I would like to know – what would be “better” proteins to consume rather than muscle meats and whey protein at mealtimes? I currently have started supplementing with glycine, but on each average day I consume 2 scoops of whey, 2-3 chicken breasts, cottage cheese and greek yoghurt as protein sources. Is this too much? Should I be doing/eating something different? Or is the glycine supplementation enough to counteract the inflammatory effects from these “quality proteins”?
Wow. That’s more “quality” protein than I take in per week!
Indeed! And chicken has about the highest methionine content of all commonly eaten meats. Matt is also right on target about optimal proteins for anabolism (bodily growth) as opposed to maintaining optimum health. Remember, for example, that dairy (whey protein) is made for when we are babies; when anabolism is maximal. Once our bodies are grown, the total need for amino acids drops considerably, and the proportions of the different essential amino acids changes, becoming much more reflective of their metabolic roles in the body, rather than their much reduced role in building proteins.
In terms of the research establishing the nutritional needs of both people and animals, scientists were always focused on maximizing growth, so the amounts and proportions which maximize growth became enshrined in the nutritional guidelines. But we’re finding out that what’s best for growing bodies is not best for health and longevity in grown bodies.
Joel – what if one is not trying to maintain optimal health, but is actually trying to grow? For instance – I have been seriously underweight with a severe eating disorder since I was 11, and am now 28. So I haven’t actually developed properly through adolescence etc. Would that then suggest that I may benefit from more protein particularly in the form of whey? If not, then if whey and lean muscle meats are out, what would be a better source of protein?
I just want to point out, in chicken’s defense, that if you eat the skin with it, not only will it taste much much better but it will provide a lot more glycine to offset the high methionine content.
My daughter, when I feed her chicken, will ONLY eat the skin. She’s like a salmon-skinning bear in spawning season, lol.
I wonder in a competition between the pro-inflammatory effects of AA vs. the anti-inflammatory effects of glycine, which one prevails.
Haha! Matt – This is actually a REDUCTION from my bodybuilding/fitness obsessed days :O
Haha – Matt, that’s actually a big decrease from what I used to eat! :O
Guesstimating on the size of the chicken breasts and the amount of protein in the whey scoops, yogurt, and cottage cheese, Lauren’s reported daily protein intake is about 180-200grams. I could see that being high for many, but doesn’t seem outlandish to me. Matt, you don’t get more than this in a given week? Really? I feel best when I get at least 100g of protein in per day… Without eating muscle meat and dairy, I’m not sure I could reach 100g. So how much and what types of protein should be eaten? I realize this will vary by individual, but should the rest of the protein come from the 1-2 grams in fruits? You’d need 20-25 bananas a day to get about 50 grams of protein. Not seeing how one could realistically get close to 100g of protein with minimal “quality” protein without making the diet kind of strange. Eat lots of low-methionine beans (which kill my gut)?
I don’t tolerate gelatin/collagen well, but even if I did, 5 tbsp of gelatin (which is quite a bit and probably more than most people get) is only about 25g of protein. Sooo…. having trouble figuring out what the diet would look like.
Any mixed high-carb diet is going to have at least 50 grams of plant-based protein per day, so Lauren may very well be closer to 250. I would think most adult males will fare better down around 100, with women between 70-80 grams, which is probably going to put most people around 12-15% protein by percentage of calories. This assumes, of course, that it’s in the context of a high-carb diet with adequate calorie intake. Many feel crappy when they drop protein to those levels if they are undereating, as this quickly turns catabolic.
I’d guess my personal diet contains about 60 grams of protein per day from fruit, juice, potatoes, bread/pasta/rice, and other starches. I have been adding some rice protein to smoothies lately, which I like. I don’t eat beans, generally. Overdid that back in the vegetarian days.
Added to that is probably an average of 20-30 grams of “quality” protein from animal sources each day: milk, cheese, eggs, meat, and fish. So yeah, just 150-200 grams of this coveted “quality protein” each week, with about 400 grams of low-quality protein.
Hi Matt- what about the view that a higher amount of protein is needed to detox/get rid of excess estrogen? I generally lean towards a lower protein diet, but keep reading that a higher protein diet is needed for estrogen removal (which I could really use help with). Thanks!
Thanks for the response, Matt! Those details are helpful. So I’m guessing you get about 60-70% of calories from carbs and 15-25% from fat?
I’d also like to know your thoughts on Kari’s question… whether higher protein is needed for proper liver function (and thus, estrogen removal via the liver). If a higher carb diet is protein sparing, how many carbs/calories does one need in order to make 70-80g of protein enough protein, yet not lower liver function?
I think 70-80g is enough to get that effect in general. But eating enough calories and emphasizing carbs just ensures that even more, as both of those factors are very protein-sparing.
I don’t know what my macros are. They vary from day to day based on what I’m in the mood for. Generally my diet is pretty lean, but there are plenty of days where I’ll eat a whole pizza and be at like 40% fat for the day, roughly.
I just noticed this conversation from the other day. I have never heard of a specific connection between protein intake and estrogen clearance: It certainly makes sense that one needs adequate quality protein for optimal liver function in general.
However, it is also known that the best estrogen detox foods are cruciferous vegetables: broccoli, cabbage, brussel sprouts, cauliflower and kale. These contain a nutrient called indole-3 carbinol, which is converted in the stomach into diindolyl methane (DIM). Both forms are widely available as supplements). Among other anti-cancer and anti-inflammatory benefits, this nutrient is specifically known to accelerate the metabolism of estrogens to safe, rather than carcinogenic metabolites (specifically, the production of 2-hydroxylated rather than 16-alpha-hydroxylated metabolites).
How much do you take in per week? I am so confused by all of the conflicting info. I am currently breastfeeding my 3 month old and I’m not sure what the best route is to go for diet. Would you prefer more the McDougal style with lots of starches over the paleo style with lots of protein and fat?
I wouldn’t go to the extremes of McDougall, but lots of starches and sugars (fruits, juice, etc.) as the base of your diet is a good place to start, with some complementary protein and fat to add calorie density, and plenty of salt to make it palatable. The most important thing for most young mothers is getting adequate calories and carbohydrates. Not easy to do with the extra demands from nursing.
Lots of sugars. I just got an article about how sugars, red meat, dairy and white flour is causing inflammation and depression. It was some study.
I get a bit confused. I know some meat cause more inflammation than others, and that dairy seams to cause it to some (I though, feel great from dairy).
But the sugars and white flours?! I would really love you Matt, or some other here at 180degreehealth to write about sugar, flour and inflammation. Something is wrong with this.
Maybe it is biased or stuff that seams to correlate is due to a third thing (like the sugar eaters gets more linoleic acid, or depression itself gives inflammation, or usual sugar eaters with depression has more of an eating disorder way of eating (compensating, overeat, linoleic eating since linoleic acid comes with many sugary industry stuff).
Please write about this, since it sometimes feels awkward to just rely on my diet with “dangerous stuff”.
Emma, I would guess dairy agrees with you because your overall diet is not glycine-deficient. Between your daily consumption of bone-rich broth, and your 2 tablespoons of hydrolyzed gelatin powder (the gelatin powder alone gives you 3.5 grams of glycine per day), you can handle a protein-rich diet just fine.
BTW, those who research and who sell collagen supplements generally believe that the reason this helps support joint health is that the amino acids are essential to supporting the growth of collagen in your joints. However, such amounts are way, way beyond what is needed for collagen maintenance in a grown body. It’s the glycine that does the job, by preventing inappropriate inflammation. That’s why just supplementing with glycine alone confers the benefits.
Thanks Joel for your answer here.
I am dealing also with inflammation: knee-tendon. The glycine I bought did a miracle: 5 grams + 250 ml water: in 5 minutes: obstinate pain (after wrong burdentask) disappeared. Very happy indeed. A neighbour: tendons broken after falling in shower, operation, recovery now. My advise: gelatine, I also use it. Here comes my question: out of your quote: “However, such amounts are way, way beyond what is needed for collagen maintenance in a grown body.”. What do you mean here, don’t really understand since I am not from Britain or USA: are the amounts of the sellingcomps. still to low in order to fulfill the demand for the collagen building in situ itself? Thanks for your answer.
So the only practical conclusion is supplementation? What food (non-supplement) protein source provides the right balance of glycine/methionine? Because if it doesn’t exist it makes me wonder about this hypothesis (I.e. how in the word would the optimal balanced protein source be pretty much unattainable via diet). I fear your answer will be something along the lines of fish heads, brains, slugs, things we Americans are taught to be repulsive. :) my take away is reduce or eliminate dairy and muscle meats, eat some broth occasionally, offal if you can stomach it, and make up for the difference with a supplement.
Collagen is bound up more in connective tissues, tendons, skin, and bones. Ray Peat, for example, suggests eating oxtail soup and other tougher cuts of meat that have to be stewed for a long time to be tender. In French cuisine, gelatin-rich sauces are always present at every meal and in just about every dish (stock is used for basically everything). In Asian cultures, collagen-rich poultry feet are eaten in preference to the muscle meat in many regions. Of course carnivorous animals will typically consume all of the animal including many of the bones. Modern humans take it even a step further by consuming only the most tender cuts of meat, which contain the least collagen. If cooking and eating traditional food isn’t practical, than supplementing with gelatin or a glycine supplement is what Dr. Brind is suggesting as an effective and suitable alternative. I’m not sure you need to pass it through some kind of “is it natural?” litmus test. I thought we left that limited logic behind a few years ago.
Dr. Brind if one eats more meat should they increase beyond 8 grams of glycine do you think?
That makes sense, Justin. Once would have to experiment and find the optimum for oneself. 8 grams is a good ballpark average for a typical omnivorous diet (probably with somewhat less protein than Lauren’s diet:-) I have one customer, for example, who came up a bit short with 8 grams while she was breastfeeding her baby–totally understandable!
Dr Brind, how should vegetarians take in glycine and do they need as much since they are not taking in muscle meats?
It depends what you mean by “vegetarian”. Lactovegetarians often eat lots of dairy, and whey protein–as noted in prior comments–is rather methionine-rich. If one is a vegan, than it would also depend on what vegetable foods are eaten. Generally speaking, most vegetable proteins are more glycine-rich and methionine-poor than animal proteins, although there are some exceptions. for example, lima beans and mushrooms are methionine-rich. You can likely find the amino acid contents of all common foods on the internet, and come up with a good estimate for your own diet.
So while Ray Peat talks about how important glycine (broth/supplement) is, he also recommends drinking 2-3 litres of methionine rich milk DAILY, in addition to a serving of meat, negating all the benefits of the glycine he consumed. Would you say that is a fair conclusion Dr. Brind? Also, would you say that a plant based near-vegan diet would be best, based on your accumulated research?
And Matt, could you explain why you say the “is it natural? litmus test” is old/bad thinking? Both artificial versions of a nutrient–artificial folate supplements have been proven to increase colorectal and breast cancers–and high doses of a nutrient that cannot be gotten through normal foods (think the disastrous vitamin E trial that had to be stopped), have been shown to do serious harm in the past. “is it natural” may not be 100%, but it definately should give you pause…
Although Ray Peat and I are often on the same page, I’m not sure he is quite aware of the ramifications of the intimate and critical relationship between glycine and methionine yet. The insights I have provided here are all really quite new, and these posts pull together my own work not yet published in full paper form as well as that of others. For example, the metabolic pathway diagrams I have included in this post illustrate pathways and control mechanisms that are well established in the literature, but no one has put it together in quite this way before. It was quite an Aha! moment when the metabolism part came together for me, and that was in 2007. I think you’ll find Ray Peat is very much up to speed on the published literature, but it’s hard to fault him for knowledge that isn’t there yet. Re: a vegan diet, as I suggested in an earlier comment, if a vegan diet avoids heavy reliance on high-methionine vegetable sources like lima beans and mushrooms, it is likely not glycine-deficient. To say whether that is necessarily better than a well-balanced omnivorous diet would be speculation on my part. I suspect it varies for different people.
Even though you directed your “Is it natural test” question to Matt, this is a question that I have been answering in essentially the same way as Matt for many years–long before I knew Matt. Certain aspects of this are really quite obvious: Many plants are poisonous, and there being natural does not make them good food. In fact, I’m one of those who is very wary of nightshade plants (tomatoes, potatoes, peppers, eggplants and tobacco) because these plants contain detergent-like alkaloids which damage cell membranes, and I’m sure some fraction of these alkaloids are absorbed (especially if one has a leaky gut). Such foods likely exacerbate glycine deficiency by making cell membranes too easily depolarized. I also sometimes tell my students that my favorite natural fiber is asbestos, just to disabuse them of the notion that natural is necessarily better. One needs sound theory and sound scientific evidence to evaluate each given case. I have some familiarity with the cases of artificial folate and choline supplements and the increased incidence of colorectal cancer. It may not surprise you that this actually dovetails with the glycine -methionine story. Folate supplements are all in the chemical form of MeTHF. Now refer back to my Figure b in the present post, and note that in the methionine loaded condition, MeTHF synthesis is shut off. But if MeTHF is artificially supplied, it exacerbates methionine loading and glycine deficiency (That’s because the ONLY metabolic function of MeTHF is the regeneration of methionine.) As for choline, this also increases methionine loading because normally, the synthesis of choline requires methionine. So the more choline you eat, the less methionine you require. So you see these epidemiological studies, and even clinical trials, can only go so far in explaining what is happening: One needs to pin it down right to the molecular level–and all the pieces need to fit without forcing square pegs into round holes–and see some major pieces of the puzzle really come together before one can draw definitive conclusions. And even then one must always remember that it’s never quite the whole story (i.e., skepticism is a healthy thing:-)
Re Synthetic folic acid supplements and cancer:
Is the same true for supplementing with Methylfolate? I was recently diagnosed with MTHFR 677 homozygous and the “treatment” is high doses of Methylfolate (7-15mg/day) and Methylcobalamin. I am curious as to how these high dosages might inadvertently cause unwanted side effects in the long term.
Carrie, I just discovered your comment after 3 weeks, sorry for the delay! From what I know, the MTHFR variant C677T (the most common variant) is something I addressed in an earlier comment. Specifically, studies which try to link it with some disease or other have been all over the place. I believe it is inaccurate to characterize this genetic variant as “abnormal” or reflective of a genetic “disease”. Indeed, it’s high prevalence in human populations around the world indicate that it is a normal variant of the gene. So even if it does mean a reduced capacity to regenerate methionine, we usually get so much in a typical diet that it does not matter. So when you say “diagnosed with MTHFR C677T homozygous”, do you mean that was a diagnosis of some disease condition, or just an identification of your genetic type? Certainly 7-15 mg. is a lot of folate, about 30 times the normal daily requirement. As I noted earlier, that could increase the overall methionine load, all other things being equal in your diet.
Hi Joel, I’m very grateful for your posts on Glycine. I’ve read all four and found them excellent, informative and helpful, although scientifically way over my head. Since you and Mat originally posted this info on Glycine I’ve been taking 3 grams per day. I wasn’t sure exactly how much to take and you suggested above:”8 grams per day is about right for the typical omnivorous diet”. I’m a lacto-ovo vegetarian. Mostly yogurt and cottage cheese for the lacto part and 1 to 3 eggs per week for the ovo part, but sometimes no eggs for long stretches. I’ve also been on Mat’s metabolic reset since January, which has been extrememly helpful, but that’s another topic. I know that you can’t be real specific not having more info about my overall diet, but can you suggest a per day dosage of Glycine for a “Typical” lacoto-ovo vegetarian diet. Thanks, freddie
I think this needs to be determined on an individual basis, and it’s not very hard to do. Just do something that ordinarily causes inappropriate inflammation. If it does, you are likely glycine-deficient. For example, if you work out, or participate in sports or any strenuous activity, you may ordinarily be sore the next day. For example, pulling weeds or shoveling snow used to give me a sore lower back the next day. Not any more! Of course, if you use these muscles they will show signs of soreness for a couple of days, but when they are at rest, there should be no discomfort at all (because that would be due to inflammation). I find that if I go as much as 2 or 3 days without supplemental glycine, I can tell the difference quite easily. Moderate sunburn is another test. I can get quite “red lobsterish”, but it just starts to go away after I get out of the sun, with no subsequent pain, blistering or peeling. But it’s a different story if I’m not taking my sweetamine! It’s also good to keep in mind that more than enough won’t hurt. I prefer to be sure that I have no inappropriate inflammation going on, like in my arteries!
Any ideas why glycine in supplement form might leave someone lethargic the next day? I have tried taking 1-3 grams before bed- oddly they don’t seem to improve sleep, however they do leave sluggish the next day. Wondering why that might be. It has left me deciding not to continue taking them, though you’ve made it sound so appealing…
The idea that glycine improves sleep is often right on the label, based on the fact that glycine is an inhibitory neurotransmitter in the central nervous system. I’m not really sure there is any good evidence that it actually works, however. As for my own personal experience, I’m in the habit of taking my glycine in my morning coffee (all 8 grams, i.e., one packet of my sweetamine), so I have no experience of losing any sleep over it. Another possibility to explain the difficulty you are having may have to do with how you take your glycine. If you take it as a powder–in tablet or capsule form, or just as a straight powder–it will absorb quite a bit of water from your stomach, so it may cause some GI upset. (You can even find that reported in the literature.) I also know people who report nausea just taking straight glycine in water. Personally, I just think that tastes awful, which is why I formulated sweetamine, to taste good as a sweetener in a real beverage like coffee or tea. (It makes a real good lemonade, too, and even a tasty margarita:-)
Could glycine supplementation reduce or delay the effects of aging on the skin (wrinkles)?
I would say that at least some of what passes for skin aging is really the result of secondary inflammation. That is definitely the case for sunburn, so I would think that “sun damage” is really largely inflammation: an inappropriate reaction to the suns rays. Of course sunlight causes some UV damage to DNA in living cells of the skin, but normal skin repairs the damage. Why should there be more damage after one gets out of the sun?
I eat almost no quality protein , only about 2-3g in a bit of cream cheese and 1/4c of egg white about 2 times a week. I limit my protein intake (mostly from plants to 40-45 g) My kidney are barely functioning and I am trying to hold of dialysis as long as possible. Would it benefit or hurt in any way for me to take glycine?
thanks
There is definitely a substantial literature on the nephroprotective effects of glycine, even though it increases the production of ammonia. I have also found, in my own studies on rats, that glycine delays the onset of kidney disease (a common cause of death in old lab rats). A couple of years ago in one of my biology classes, I talked about glycine and its benefits. A student came up to me after class and told me that he had had a congenital kidney problem. It was familial, as both his father and grandfather had the condition also. However, his family doctor–who was familiar with the literature–put them all on supplemental glycine, and the problem disappeared. So to my knowledge, all lines of evidence point to the idea of minimizing protein intake to minimize ammonia production and kidney damage is not really generally true. It really depends on the amino acid content, which is generally deficient in glycine.
Is there a downside to glycine supplementation?
Susan Owens, a researcher involved in the relationship to oxalates and various diseases (including kidney and urinary problems, autism, fibromyalgia, etc.) has reviewed thousands of case histories and has found a substantial percentage cannot tolerate supplement glycine, nor gelatin or bone broth.
Just wondering about your thoughts on this Joel?
I’m not very familiar with Susan Owens’ work, except that she is a big advocate of reducing oxalates in the diet. This makes sense, as, for example, calcium oxalate is the culprit in most kidney stones. My hypothesis at this point is that supplemental glycine, by increasing levels of ammonia, actually results in more soluble salts, e.g., ammonium oxalates’ passing through the kidney instead of calcium oxalate, thus preventing kidney stones. (Although ammonia is universally viewed as a toxin, especially as a neurotoxin, the fact that the kidney uses ammonia to get rid of excess acidity means that there is an optimal range of concentration of ammonia, which is a normal metabolite. In other words, I believe it is likely that one consequence of glycine deficiency is ammonia deficiency, strange as that may sound!) Do you have any links to articles wherein Owen describes an actual intolerance to supplemental glycine?
Of course now that I try to find where she mentions it, I can’t. But one member of that group recently had a new OAT test, and her oxalate markers were a lot higher. The only thing they had done differently was added glycine, to help detox salicylates.
But here’s a study (In rats) that showed glycine increased oxalate formation if B-6 was deficient:
http://www.jbc.org/content/234/9/2391.full.pdf
Could you comment on Sam-e as a supplement? Many holistic doctors over the years have told me to take this to help with depression etc… I took the high doses recommended and it cause a Crohn’s flare pretty badly. If I understand correctly, this is because it is inflammatory to have so much methionine? It’s odd that so many people recommend taking methionine/sam-e
Also, many doctors push the idea that we need methyl donors in great amounts in order for our livers to detox thing correctly etc… It seems like this makes no sense if we recycle methionine so efficiently. Why all of the methyl B vitamins etc 5- MTHFR
My mother has terrible issues with inflammation and mast cell issues and she takes a lot of Sam-e believing that it’s making her liver work better. Can you speak to this belief? The flaws in it?
Thank you
Since I am not a physician, I cannot comment on anyone’s individual medical condition or treatment. That said, it is my belief that SAMe supplementation is usually exactly the wrong idea. Not only does the increased methionine loading increase the level of inappropriate inflammation, but the increased methylation activity is damaging to the brain. Human studies have shown that SAMe can actually produce mania. In animal studies, SAMe in the brain can actually produce damage resulting in an experimental version of Parkinson’s disease. SAMe is a very unstable, high-energy compound, which can result in the formation of the very damaging metabolite formaldehyde, the likely culprit in neuronal damage. That would explain why the liver invests so much energy in getting rid of any excess methionine (as discussed in the body of this post).
So it’s a good question as to why so many believe that SAMe (or N-acetyl cysteine, for that matter, a sulfur-containing amino acid metabolite of methionine that increases the methionine load) is somehow good for the liver. I think it’s because supplementation with methionine, N-acetyl cysteine or SAMe increases the level of glutathione. Glutathione is a key endogenous detoxifier in the liver and elsewhere; a potent anti-oxidant and also a detoxifier of formaldehyde. It is my belief that SAMe, by increasing the toxic methylation load, increases the need for glutathione, and more is produced (as a downstream product of SAMe metabolism, but which also requires glycine–see figures a and b in the body of this post). It reminds me of the idea of curing anemia by smoking cigarettes. When you smoke cigarettes, you endure a degree of carbon monoxide poisoning, which your body compensates for by making more hemoglobin and more red blood cells. So your hematocrit goes up, and your anemia is apparently cured! But that’s only because a significant portion of your hemoglobin is inactivated by the carbon monoxide poisoning, so your body needs to compensate. In the same way, the increase in glutathione is not a good sign; rather, a sign that the liver is compensating for the increased methionine toxicity.
What about SAMe for a damaged liver from too much alcohol! I’ll guess you’d say that SAMe should never be taken, but for me after years of drinking too much (a couple of drinks day with more on weekends)SAMe helped me with somethings until I cut down on alcohol, and ate more fruits and less pufa. Now it has no benefit so I stopped. I took it for about a year – about 100mgs a day. Did I damage my brain permanently from it?
For most of the past few decades I have not been a big meat or dairy eater.
Taking SAMe is really the same as taking methionine, since all the methionine gets converted to SAMe. In fact, you get less methionine, mg-for-mg, when you take it as SAMe instead of as methionine. So 100 mg of SAMe is equivalent to only 36 mg of methionine per day. Not enough to make a real difference.
Thank you so much for your thorough answer. I really really appreciate it. I’m a doctor of oriental medicine and many of my colleagues advise the use of Sam-e and were surprised to hear of my reaction to it. It was not until I watched a YouTube interview with you that I began to get the idea of why it seemed to trigger a Crohn’s relapse. It would make sense that consuming something so inflammatory would make my intestines inflamed.
You may want to consider writing about this subject because people believe Sam-e is safe and good and it’s quite obviously not. I guess this is why some people want supplements regulated
You’re quite welcome, Sarah. I realize that some nutritional fads can actually cause more illness than improvement, but regulation just means that government bureaucracies get to decide what’s good for us, and they are, collectively, probably less wise than the general public (not to mention very expensive to maintain!).
Just think, all the nonsense about cholesterol’s being bad for us and pufa’s being good for us stemmed from government research (i.e., the still ongoing Framingham Heart Study, an NIH project, started in 1948 and run by Boston University faculty). It is a very well-intentioned project, and they wanted to know why men were dropping like flies after WWII in the US, from cardiovascular disease (CVD), in their 30s, 40s and 50s (My dad was one such casualty, dying of his 2nd heart attack at age 58 back in 1966). So from the first round of studies, which showed a strong association of the standard “meat and potatoes” American diet with CVD. So the government wizards concluded that it was red meat–with all its saturated fat and cholesterol–that was the culprit. Thus, a generation or two has been trained to eat low fat, low cholesterol foods, and lots of pufas instead! We all know how that influenced the food and drug industries, and the state of health in the general public. Well, the incidence of CVD actually did go down some, but as it became clear that insulin resistance and diabetes, conditions often preceding CVD, were showing up all over the place, the federal government wizards decided it was the potatoes (ie, the carbs), rather than the saturated fat and cholesterol that were doing most of the damage! As you know, it is my view that the real problem is eating a high-meat diet without the balance of the collagen in the bones and connective tissues, and that the lack of glycine–relative to methionine–is the real problem; the real source of the present plague of chronic inflammation in all its manifestations.
All that said, I do work with the NIH when I can: There are many really good scientists who work for the NIH and who are funded by it. But government regulation necessarily politicizes the process, and that generally leads to trouble!
Thanks and I agree. I am not for FDA regulation of supplements I was more commenting on how some people feel that there needs to be some kind of regulation of these products. That would actually be disastrous for me since I use Chinese herbs and supplements with 80% of my patients. I don’t want the government to take away my ability to help people via these substances.
I guess it really comes down to education of the practitioner who provide a lot of these things.
It can be a bit scary that someone can get a job at whole foods in the “health and beauty ” department and essentially work all day long as a physician giving out well-intentioned advice to customers. This is where many people begin to take supplements hoping that they will feel better
How does trimethylglycine fit in here? does it contribute to the glycine quota for the day? I have been diagnosed as an under-methylator and was told to take extra methionine, which i did for a while but have stopped now since reading more about it. Trying to find other ways to boost methylation without adding methionine. Any suggestions please? Thanks in advance.
Trimethylglycine (TMG) and methionine definitely increase methylation. So if under-methylation is really the problem, they will help. (Yes, TMG can be converted to glycine, but only after extensive demethylation, so its net effect is opposite to glycine, i.e., it will increase, rather than decrease methylation.)
Can you comment or educate me about scenarios where a person really does have a methylation deficiency and a methionine deficiency? Could vegans suffer from this? over-all protein deficiency from all fruit diets etc or just plain mal-nourishment?
The Alternative medicine world is abundant in products that increase methylation. You talked about N-acetyl cysteine and sam-e. I know that included in these “pro-methylation” supplements are often Alpha Lipoic Acid and Selenium (in addition to NAC)
Could you comment on these other nutrients? I realize I have asked you a bunch of questions in this one comment…. Thanks for your time
I am skeptical about the prevalence of “under-methylation”, as most people are overloaded with methylation. True, if you really eat only fruits, or some diet that is really deficient in essential amino acids, you can be methionine deficient, but in that case, you are likely deficient in other essential amino acids as well. You can fix that easily enough by eating what most of the world has survived on for millennia, i.e., some combination of legumes and cereal grains, whether beans and rice, pasta fagiole, or PBJ or Cracker-Jacks. Lipoic acid and seleno-cysteine (an amino acid) are also essential nutrients. The former is easily taken as a one-a-day supplement, the latter is found in pretty high concentrations in Brazil nuts and pumpkin seeds, for example.
How does all of this play out if you have MTHFR deficiency? I’ve been looking into Dr. Ben Lynch’s work on the subject…my dd10 has Down Syndrome and we suspect a mutation in the MTHFR gene. I have a test kit from 23andme that I have yet to send in, but if it comes back positive for the mutation and enzyme deficiency I’m not sure how to to proceed in light of this information.
MTHFR mutations are quite common. The most common mutation–called C677T–actually affects 10-20% of many populations around the world. Lots of studies have been done, looking for correlation of disease conditions with this mutation (and others), and the results are all over the place. As discussed in the text of this post, MTHFR is the enzyme that generates the form of folic acid (MeTHF) that is used to recharge homocysteine to regenerate methionine. People with the C677T mutation have a mildly decreased capacity to regenerate methionine. I believe that Dr. Lynch and others have siezed upon this as a cause of everything from fibromyalgia to autism to depression to cancer, thinking that the problem is under-methylation. I believe that generally, the opposite is true; with most chronic illness actually traceable to excess methylation capacity and glycine deficiency.
That said, Down’s syndrome is a condition that can be markedly improved with mega-vitamin therapy. But Down’s is a much more serious mutation affecting many metabolic functions, whereas many people with essentially normal metabolism have mutations in MTHFR.
According to Dr. G, nearly everyone tests positive for MTHFR, which is why it was devised by the alternative health community as a very important thing that everyone needs to take care of with tests and expensive supplements. It’s how people in that industry makes money, and it’s often hard to separate fact from fiction sometimes.
So you sayin that this Joel Brind guy is in the business of selling glycine supplements…
Guilty as charged! As you can see from my bio, going into business selling glycine supplements (basically, sweetamine) is quite new (since 2011) to me, and I had never imagined I would be doing this. However, once I discovered the value of glycine supplementation in correcting an almost universal deficiency and alleviating so much chronic illness, I decided that–since glycine is a simple bulk nutrient that one can formulate into a palatable supplement and sell, providing no drug claims are made–selling glycine would be the best way to get the word out, all the while pursuing research through the usual peer-reviewed academic research channels. It’s just that pursuing the latter only is a process that would take years–or even decades–before this knowledge became common knowledge, so I figured, why wait until we’re all dead from chronic illness before it’s available?
So I am very happy and proud to sell sweetamine. And I’m just as happy to write about what I know about nutritional biochemistry, immunology, and anything else of interest, all free of charge. If you want to try sweetamine, you are welcome to do so or not; or for that matter to try glycine from any other source. My interest is in disseminating valuable knowledge, and selling a helpful product is an honorable way to help support that effort.
Following on from the work of Dr Katherine Reid and glutamate as a real issue for the autistic person, which appears in our case to have real merit,can you comment on the the suggestion that glycine trips the glutamate receptors in the brain to cause further neurological problems. we were using glycine as an alternative filler in my sons thyroid medication as microcrystalline cellulose was a problem .
Neurological effects of glycine came up in the discussion following part 3 of this series (on Aug. 25, re: a question brought up by Zanolachino. I’m afraid I don’t really know much about the interactions of the various neurotransmitters in autism, however.
Vladimir wrote the original post on the potential virtues of glycine a few months ago, and he is not in the business of selling anything. Dr. Brind found the post and started engaging in the comments. I invited him to write a series of articles on the blog, since he is one of the most notable authorities on the subject in the world. He has developed a glycine product called Sweetamine and sells it through his website.
One thing that gives me pause with respect to consuming too much glycine is the study on http://www.sciencemag.org/content/336/6084/1040.abstract that “identified glycine consumption and expression of the mitochondrial glycine biosynthetic pathway as strongly correlated with rates of proliferation across cancer cells” and noted that “Antagonizing glycine uptake and its mitochondrial biosynthesis preferentially impaired rapidly proliferating cells.”
While this may be of primary concern to cancer patients (who might therefore be well advised to limit both glycine and methionine, which basically means sticking to a low protein diet), it may also be relevant for any of us who feel we might be at risk of cancer and might have small amounts of cancer cells in our bodies that are not yet large enough to form a tumor but that we don’t want to feed. The study is described in an article here: http://www.boston.com/whitecoatnotes/2012/05/24/boston-area-team-finds-cancer-cells-have-appetite-for-glycine-providing-lead-effort-halt-tumors/k6yFTmSKUeoqYtNprjjSsM/story.html.
Dr. Brind, I would naturally welcome your thoughts on this, as it implies that just eating a lot of glycine (or glycine-rich foods) to offset high methionine consumption from dairy and animal proteins may not be a wise strategy; consuming only moderate amounts of both glycine and methionine (ie, avoiding high protein diets and consuming only modest amounts of animal protein) would seem to be a safer approach (and one that is more consistent with what we know about the typical diets of very long lived people across different cultures).
On the other hand, perhaps that study on glycine was flawed or misleading, I am not sure; I am only posting it for informational and discussion purposes and would love to find out what others think about this.
I would also like to hear more about this, as I am just recovering from breast cancer. I had a mastectomy followed by chemotherapy and radiation. I have been taking Sweetamine for about 2 months and had never heard of a connection to cancer cell proliferation until now.
The short answer is, yes, these studies (I think the second link is to a popular journal article about the first study in Science magazine, by Mohit Jain et al. in 2012. The second link does not work, btw.) are flawed and misleading. Actually, I am quite familiar with this research and it may take a day or two to publish a suitably detailed reply. In short, there have been a couple of such studies (implicating glycine in cancer cell growth and metabolism), which are classified as “data-driven” studies (as opposed to “hypothesis-driven studies”, the latter of which I call “real science”), in the field of metabolomics.
These “-omics” disciplines (metabolomics, genomics, proteomics, etc) are really new forms of data mining: fantastic new tools for biochemistry and genetics and molecular biology, but not proper scientific disciplines in their own right. Technically, these studies are wonderfully done, but the authors draw the wrong conclusions, coming up with the most simplistic hypotheses to explain trends that are identified by “fishing expeditions” in databases, etc. (in this case, a collection of human tumor cell lines maintained in culture by the US National Cancer Institute.)
In my book, “data-driven” science is not really science. In fact, I believe that the results of the Jain study and others actually provide good evidence that cancers arise in bodies which are methionine-loaded and glycine-deficient.
Hi,
I experiment with glycine supplementation using regular gelatin powder and a pure glycine supplement (L-glycine). The later can be found in health and gym/body building stores.
The pure L-glycine powder is much easier to consume in small amounts of water compared to regular gelatin powder. The L-glycine seem to hydrate as a slower rate and the taste is actually a bit sweet and not bad at all.
Now, my questions:
Is pure L-glycine a suitable supplement in the context of your inflammation series?
How come pure L-glycine tastes sweet and seem to hydrate at a slower rate?
Regards,
Dex
Yes, pure glycine powder is a perfectly fine way to supplement with glycine. (And by the way, the label “L-glycine” reflects the chemical ingnorance of some companies that sell it: There is no such thing as “L-glycine”. Glyine is such a simple compound that there is no “left-handed” and “right-handed” form; just plain ol’ glycine.)
Yes, glycine does have a naturally sweet taste. I trademarked my product “sweetamine” because the word “glycine” actually means “sweet amine”. However, it does have an unpleasant aftertaste, which is neutralized by the other ingredients in sweetamine.
Finally, both glycine powder and gelatin powder hydrate well and are freely soluble in water (although gelatin hydrates better in cold water than glycine does), but since gelatin is only about 22% glycine, you need to eat over 4 times as much gelatin powder to get the same amount of glycine.
Hi Dr. Brind, would glycine benefit somebody with OCD? Thank you!
It’s interesting that we habitually think of any sort of supplementation as some sort of drug therapy. But remember that glycine is just a bulk nutrient in which most people are deficient. So taking supplemental glycine corrects the deficiency, therefore ameliorating any condition which results from that deficiency. Is OCD one of them? I do not know. But if you are glycine deficient, it will help you in other ways, and sure won’t hurt.
I developed PPOCD, and I know it can be related to excess copper and zinc deficiency. I’m currently trying to get WAPFey/Paleo paradigms to shift more Peat-ey (makes my brain hurt) in an effort to fix this xondito
*condition and a few others that are more physical l. Loving this current series- and hang in there Andrew. OCD is no joke and it’s tough. Trying glycine couldn’t hurt ;)
I think Matt knows more about heavy metal toxicity and diet than I do.
Joel, many health sites claim that sugar is the leading cause of inflammation. Can you give us your thoughts on that, is there any possible mechanism which that would be true?
Also could you tive your thoughts on omega 3. Do you subsrcribe to the RP theory that avoiding all PUFA is optimal or to the rest of the world that omega 3 from natural sources is beneficial?
I do not believe that sugar causes inflammation. The medical research world has finally caught on to the fact that abdominal obesity causes type II diabetes not because of the fat cells, but because of the macrophages (immune cells that cause inflammation) embedded in the abdominal fat. So now they say type II diabetes results from the resulting “metabolic inflammation”. I believe this is caused by glycine deficiency–just like other forms of inappropriate inflammation–and there is at least one clinical study (Mexico City, 2008), that shows improvement in type II diabetes (e.g., lowered A1C) with glycine supplementation.
As to omega-3s, that subject came up in the comments after part 3 of this series on diet and inflammation, so you can check out that discussion, which was quite extensive.
Thank you, i will check that out now!
Good afternoon, Joel and Matt-
I have a question on blood sugar. Lately, when I eat sugar, chocolate, white flour items, or the like, I get the heart pounding, dry mouth, dizzy feelings. What causes this, and how can I stop it? I feel like this could be causing more inflammation in my body, and I invariable break out in cystic acne when this blood sugar event occurs.
Melissa, does it help at all when you take in a lot of extra fluids with these things? My pulse gets extremely heavy when I eat very concentrated foods, and I have to remember to offset that with extra fluids, including water when I eat salty stuff like pizza. Not sure if that will help or not, but it’s something to try out and pay some attention to.
Matt-
No, it’s kind of the opposite, like the foods are not very concentrated, or maybe I’m not eating enough fats with them. For example, if I eat candy or chocolate all by itself, I would surely get the blood sugar problems of the rapid heartbeat.
Good afternoon, gentlemen- Could you please help me out? Lately, I have been getting the fast heartbeat, light-headed, dry mouth feeling when I eat white flour items, chocolate, and sweets. What causes this and how can I stop it? It seems like it bothers me most at breakfast and lunch times, but not as much in the evening. I feel that when these blood sugar issues occur, it must cause inflammation, as I invariable have an acne breakout on my face and/or shoulders.
Try eating them with protein. It might be from excess serotonin which can be created when a lot of carbs are eaten at once without enough protein. Excess serotonin can make you feel stressed and adrenalized which can lead to blood sugar issues. You may also have poor blood glucose regulation which needs work
If that happened to me, I would probably stop eating that stuff, knowing I don’t need it! As to time of day issues, it may have to do with diurnal blood sugar regulation. About an hour before you usually get up, your brain tells your pituitary gland (via the hormone CRH) to tell your adrenal gland (via the hormone ACTH) to tell your liver (via the hormone cortisol) to make you breakfast (via producing glucose to raise your blood sugar). Consequently, anything that produces a sudden increase (a rush, as it were), of blood sugar may produce a more exaggerated effect, the earlier in the day you eat it. (Matt has also written about cortisol and diet.) If watching what you eat doesn’t fix those potentially serious symptoms, however, you should consult a physician (which I am not).
I have some great lakes gelatin and it says that it contains equal parts of methionine and glycine. Does that mean that supplementing with gelatin is basically a wash? Also, Joel, I can’t find an ingredients list for sweetamine on your site. Why is that?
Thank you!
I just checked out the Great Lakes gelatin hydrolysate contents, and it lists glycine at 29% and methionine at 1%, which seems about right. The only way to get methionine up to being equal to glycine is by adding it. This is, btw, what is done to many soy products, to get the methionine content up to what it is in muscle meats (because that optimizes the protein “quality”).
My bad on the content of sweetamine. It’s on the package, but its not being on the website is an oversight. Sweetamine contains glycine, L-proline, taurine and a little stevia extract.
What role do you think glycine plays in regulation of cortisol and other stress-hormones. Many of the issues I’ve had seem traceable back to excess cortisol.
I do not know if there are any direct connections between glycine and cortisol. I would think that the stress response–resulting in cortisol secretion–would be elevated in the case of chronic inflammation. That would be speculation, however. Since glycine is such a fundamental molecule, though, correcting a glycine deficiency can resolve all kinds of issues that may appear unrelated. It is easy enough to try glycine for a couple of weeks to find out.
What issues has it resolved for you, or for people you know who have tried it? You mention back pain and sunburn above.
Anyhing related to inflammation. Sweetamine users have anecdotally reported complete or almost complete resolution of fibromyalgia, asthma, psoriasis, arthritis, RSD and other manifestations of old, healed injuries which had caused chronic pain, as well as pain due to soreness after exercise or injury or gout flare-up. Of course, no claims can be made that glycine will necessarily help with any disease condition, as that would constitute a drug claim. And glycine is not a drug of any kind.
Oh, and one other effect, from my own personal experience: I used to dread going to the dentist, not because of cavities, but because the semi-annual cleaning was an excruciating, painful, bloody mess. Not any more! No more periodontal inflammation since I started glycine supplementation.
Can glycine be taken with other amino acids such as lysiene and glutamine? I take these two first thing in the morning and wondering if I can add glycine. Not sure if any of these compete with each other.
I would think it optimal to take all amino acid supplements together. After all, they all naturally occur together in the proteins we eat, so they’re naturally ingested, digested and absorbed together.
On the flip side, is there such a thing as too much glycine, and if so how much is too much?
Let’s say someone is predominantly vegetarian or vegan (I’m not) and therefore may not have the problem of too much methionine. They will likely get sufficient amounts from beans, lentils etc. If they supplement with, say, 10-15 grams of glycine, their glycine intake will be much higher than methionine. Are there any downsides to this?
Before I started selling sweetamine–which contains 8 grams of glycine in a serving–I ate 40 grams per day for a month, and tested my blood every week. I noticed absolutely no effect (wasn’t bothered by any inappropriate inflammation during that time). I also had researched the literature and found several studies that had tried it for things like schizophrenia and bipolar, with doses of 6o grams per day. They found no serious side-effects except for some GI discomfort. That’s actually why I decided to formulate glycine into a palatable form, because those studies just fed the glycine as powder. I actually originally formulated it as a glycine-gelatin confection, basically using a tart cherry juice (instead of a sweet fruit juice) with unflavored gelatin and straight glycine, with no added sugar. It came out pretty good, and I was able to cram 10 grams in each 4 oz serving (including the half gram of glycine in the gelatin itself). Of course, my serum glycine went way up, from 300 micromolar (the normal range is 100-300 micromolar) up to 700. Clearly, the normal range for our society reflects a really widespread deficiency.)
I doubt that anyone with normal metabolism can poison herself with too much glycine. As I had noted in an earlier comment re: an earlier post, there is an inborn defect in glycine metabolism (Nonketotic hyperglycinemia, or NKH), characterized by poor development, siezures and early death. But it’s probably impossible to get to the levels of glycine one sees in such patients with a normal metabolism.
Does pure glycine have a alkaline or acidic effect on the body?
I believe that i have been struggling with milk-alkali syndrome for awhile. Is pure glycine a good idea in this context?
Most likely, glycine supplementation has an alkaline effect, as the excess breaks down into CO2 and ammonia. I would proceed with caution, to be sure. (I would imagine you are under a doctor’s supervision for this condition anyway.)
Doctors in Sweden does not believe that the syndrome exists, they rather blame the symptoms (witch really fits with milk-alkali syndrome, passing kidneystones, trouble recovering my breath after exercise etc) on stress. The symptoms is a stress, i can agree with that….
But im recovering slowly, thanks for the reply.
Btw, isn’t CO2 and Ammonia acidic ?
CO2 is acidic and ammonia is basic. However, CO2 is cleared more rapidly through the lungs, whereas ammonia is cleared more slowly through the kidneys. So I believe the net effect would normally be alkalizing. But I’m not sure of the net effect in a condition of hypercalcemic alkalosis. It’s easy enough to test your urine with a test strip, to see if its alkaline or acid, however.
Hi Joel,
Do you think that high amounts of glycine could sometimes suppress immune cells so much that the supplementation would impair immune system’s ability to kill the pathogen?
BTW if anybody needs scientific references for the beneficial effects of glycine, I’ve listed a lot of studies here: http://valtsus.blogspot.fi/2013/12/glycine.html
Thanks for joining in, Vladimir! You have definitely amassed an amazing bibliography on glycine. And let’s not forget that your post on this blog a couple of months ago is what let to the current series I have posted, as Matt noted in an earlier comment on this post.
To answer your question, I would say, in practical terms, no. As I also noted earlier, only in cases where there is an inborn error in glycine clearance–i.e., NKH–does glycine actually achieve toxic levels. According to the excellent 1999 review by Wheeler, et al. (Here’s a link to the abstract: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11212343), it is quite beneficial to achieve blood levels of more than 1,000 micromolar glycine. Recall my last comment here that I only was able to get my blood level of glycine up to 700 micromolar, even ingesting 40 grams per day! I have found that 8 grams per day is adequate to prevent inappropriate inflammation, and even a gram or two of supplemental glycine has some beneficial effect. Hence, it is entirely possible that more than 8 grams is required for maximum benefit, but I expect there would be diminishing returns (as you have previously suggested might be the case for more than 4-6 grams per day).
So it’s pretty clear that one can experiment safely with daily intake of glycine at just about any level. My only caution is this: If one has been suffering from chronic inflammation for years or decades, even eliminating all the inflammation immediately will not immediately reverse the damage that may have been done. In my own experience and that of a number of people I know, some nagging pains just did not go away with 8 grams per day of glycine, even after several weeks of taking it. Then, one day, months or even years later, one noticed that that old familiar ache or tender spot had disappeared, and one was not sure exactly when it happened. The point here is that when inflammation ends, healing can actually begin, and complete healing may take a long time.
Joel, Could you provide your thoughts on acne and glycine supplementation. Curious if you think there could be benefit. Thanks
http://news.stanford.edu/news/2012/november/bacteria-glycine-connection-111412.html
An interesting article, although there is a serious error: Staphylococcus aureus is not the culprit microbe in common teenage acne. Rather, that would be the totally unrelated Corynebacterium acnes.
However, it is interesting that although Staph aureus is a serious pathogen in a hospital setting, it is pretty harmless for people with intact immune systems (I know, I used to pipet live suspensions of Staph aureus cultures by mouth, back in the day!). Of course, an intact immune system is one not suffering from glycine deficiency! It will be interesting to follow this line of research, but its relevance to actual infection and its progression is questionable: If you check the reference by Wheeler (1999), which I cited in an earlier comment today, you’ll find that glycine may even be able to prevent fatal consequences of systemic bacterial infection (i.e., septic shock), when used intravenously.
Acne is one of those conditions that appears to be an overreaction of the immune system to a basically harmless bacterium. Therefore, I would expect it to respond positively to glycine supplementation. So far, I have two anecdotal reports: One of mild acne which was completely resolved within a couple of weeks on 8 grams per day; one of severe acne which was not improved after a couple of months of 8 grams per day. (When I say anecdotal, I mean casually reported by the user, not scientifically or medically determined.) So real data are lacking.
That’s very helpful to know (about the time it takes to heal once inflammation is finally down)
I had a really similar question. If the culprit behind the long term negative health effects of certain foods [sugar-alcohol-etc] is inflammation, as Vladimir asserted in his post, would it be possible to make a case that the inflammation cause by these foods is in some way protective against their potentially more deleterious effects.
That does not seem possible to me. The only thing inflammation is good for is destroying pathogens. If there is no infection, all it does is damage. So, unless, by “their potentially more deleterious effects” you mean infection due to contamination by Salmonella or E.Coli, for example, I would say no.
Increased Serum Ferritin levels can often be an marker of inflammation/acute stress in the body. Especially in the face of normal serum iron markers.
Might glycine be helpful on lowering the Ferritin level???
Yes, high ferritin levels are a common consequence of inflammation, although there are many other potential causes. When it indicates inflammation, other serum markers–especially CRP–should also be elevated. If the problem is inappropriate inflammation, glycine should definitely help.
Any concern for people with low levels of ferritin with glycine supplementation?
Hi Joel,
Do you think glycine deficiency plays a role in the pathogenesis of lyme disease?
And do you think very high doses of glycine can be useful in treating lyme?
I have one friend with lyme disease who is a long-standing sweetamine customer. He had very severe disease, and still has periodic bouts of severe post-lyme attacks. He swears by sweetamine because it improves his memory, memory loss being one of a number of lyme complications that can follow this infection, which targets the central nervous system. That’s the only anecdotal report I have. However, lots of forms of inflammation, especially arthritis, are typical of lyme disease, and these should be helped by glycine supplementation. Importantly, however, glycine will not supress an appropriate inflammatory reaction. Therefore, if the inflammation is due to active infection, there may be no apparent effect of glycine. One would have to try it and see.
Thank you for a groundbreaking set of diagrams, Prof. Brind. Methylation is such a hot topic right now, but no one says anything about this central role of glycine!
Given your heterodox views on over- and under-methylation, I would love your perspective on the following.
The late Rich van Konynenburg believed that Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and other mysterious chronic diseases might be rooted in glutathione depletion and methylation cycle block. He recommended a methylation pathway blood test — not a genetic test like MTHFR but a functional panel measuring reduced and oxidized glutathione, red blood cell SAM and SAH, and half a dozen forms of folate. The basic idea is, if the test comes back showing low ratios of (1) reduced to oxidized glutathione and (2) SAM to SAH, the person needs to boost methylation.
There are a lot of people with CFS taking this approach, often employing very high doses of 5-MTHF and methylcobalamin (and sometimes adding SAM and TMG). Some people report improvement; others report severe adverse effects. The great question, of course, is how to distinguish between “die-off & detox” and actual harm. If I understand correctly, you are wary of this entire approach.
My sense is that you would be inclined to interpret the same lab results — low reduced/oxidized GSH ratio and low SAM/SAH ratio — as suggesting glycine deficiency. Is this correct? Any additional thoughts for someone in this position?
Very thoughtful questions, as usual, zanolachino! I’m not aware, of any of the work on CFS that you cite. However, I’m not sure I would interpret those blood tests as van Konynenburg did. For one thing, levels of such compounds as glutathione tend to have very different concentrations in liver v. serum v. red blood cells. (Measuring it in the RBC compartment is a proverbial case, it seems, of looking for one’s keys under the lamp post, because that’s where the light is, even though you lost them somewhere else.) Even then, if one could easily measure the SAM/SAH ratio in the liver, I’m not sure a low number would be indicative of hypomethylation. After all, you only get SAH as a product of methylation (and SAH does not accumulate, being quickly hydrolyzed to homocysteine and adenosine). Re: glutathione, a low ratio of reduced to oxidized glutathione is indicative of oxidative stress, but that in turn is indicative of more, rather than less methylation.
I have also commented previously on the fact that more glutathione is not necessarily a good thing, and raising glutathione concentration by taking methionine or SAMe is akin to curing anemia by smoking cigarettes. In other words, raising methionine and methylation thereby generates more oxidative stress which requires more glutathione to neutralize it. As you can see in my figures in this post, when methionine is low (figure a) there really isn’t much to make glutathione with. When methionine is high (figure b) glutathione synthesis goes up, as the excess homocysteine feeds that pathway. (Actually, some recent metabolomic research shows that in insulin resistance–a prediabetic state–side products such as homocysteine and alpha-hydroxybutyrate accumulate, indicating a shortage of ingredients–e.g., glycine–to make glutathione with.)
So, on balance, I would not interpret the blood test results you offered to be indicative of hypomethylation, but I would actually hesitate to interpret them as being diagnostic at all with reference to what is going on in the liver re: methylation activity.
I also would question your labeling my views “heterodox”. I suppose they may be, at this point, still minority views. However, My training and approach along biochemical lines is actually rather orthodox. Unfortunately, I believe the majority view is seriously flawed in its failure to integrate all the findings of relevant research into a coherent view. But that’s really how biological and medical science usually advance: the prevailing dogma (i.e., majority view), is challenged by new theory and new discovery, and, if it was in error, eventually falls as experimental and clinical data establish a new paradigm. In the present case, where the correction can be applied in practice by the mere correction of dietary amino acid balance, I felt called to offer the totally safe dietary option of glycine supplement products for immediate use by the general public, lest we all be dead (from one or another consequence of chronic inflammation) and buried before the “orthodox” world catches on.
Thank you for your response, Prof. Brind! We are very fortunate that you make yourself available in this way.
You are right that I should not have said “heterodox”. It is simply that, as you make explicit, your perspective sets you against the current trend of MTHFR obsession and methylation boosting.
What perhaps everyone agrees on is that a low ratio of reduced to oxidized glutathione indicates oxidative stress, and that oxidative stress underlies many serious diseases.
Given your view that more glutathione is not necessarily a good thing, and your general disfavor (if I understand correctly) of supplements like NAC and whey protein, may I ask what you think is the best way to approach out-of-control oxidative stress?
Beyond your strong endorsement of glycine, I recall you mentioning favorably lipoic acid (which is controversial in some quarters because of its chelating properties — the concern being that if it does not manage to carry the mercury all the way out of the body, it could deposit it in the brain). Any other thoughts?
To clarify a couple of things:
1) My objection to the term “heterodox” to describe my views is best illustrated by my latest post on glycine and cancer, which is largely a defense of scientific orthodoxy (as in “hypothesis-based science”)!
2)Re: your point that “that oxidative stress underlies many serious diseases” is something that “perhaps everyone agrees on”. I do not quite agree, in that it is inflammation that actually underlies most oxidative stress. Recent research has contradicted the idea that mitochondrial oxidative stress–from reactive oxygen species’ being generated by mitochondrial oxidations–underlies aging. I rather think that it is the deliberate generation of peroxides by activated macrophages during inflammation that causes the damage. So anti-oxidants can mitigate damage caused by inflammation, but they don’t get at the underlying cause. Of course, I lay this at the doorstep of glycine deficiency. Consequently, I believe glycine supplementation (and of course, proper Omega 3/omega 6 balance and adequate salicylic acid would be the best approach to “out-of-control oxidative stress”.
3) I don’t believe I have mentioned lipoic acid, although I think it is a useful supplement to maintain mitochondrial health. I really don’t know about its clinical usefulness as a chelating agent however. I would only comment that, based on the significant difference in molecular shape and the body’s likely inability to convert the “S” form (which makes up 50% of synthetic preparations) to the “R” form (the only natural form), I would stick with naturally derived alpha lipoic acid as a supplement.
Is having more gluatathione ever a good thing? Can it be achieved in any other manner other than by increasing oxidative stress, methionine or methylation?
I’ve seen glutathione sold as a supplement.
Also, I had something done called a Spectracell test done and they said I was deficient in glutathione. (They also said I needed more monounsaturated fat and something else that I can’t remember)
Is this total BS? Is glutathione really the miracle substance some alternative med doctors say that it is? The doctor I was working with at the time gave me glutathione pushes. I can’t say it did much.
I’m trying to learn as much as possible about trendy things that alternative med doc’s push (and charge a lot for)
Glutathione is interesting for more than one reason. In addition to being a critical anti-oxidant and detoxifier, it is a tripeptide that has the same glycine content as gelatin (about 25%). Based on theory about cystic fibrosis (CF), it was tried and found to be beneficial. However, I believe the benefit is really due to the glycine content. In fact, CF is a very interesting condition, in that it is a genetic error in a chloride channel protein. The CF protein is not a glycine-gated chloride channel, but I suspect that it can compensate for the lack of chloride channels, and might even therefore turn out to be a genetic condition that only produces disease in the presence of glycine deficiency.
But I digress: I really cannot say if you are glutathione-deficient or not, but here is an interesting article from the 1990s on normal levels in plasma: http://www.clinchem.org/content/41/10/1509.long
Note that glutathione goes us with such habits as cigarette smoking, which increase oxidative stress, as I suggested in an earlier comment.
My general sense is that glutathione appears to be a “miracle substance” because it is a rich source of glyvcine (but an expensive one at that!).
Thank you again for so thoroughly answering my questions!! I’m so very grateful!
I strongly suggest you take a deeper look into the work of Van Konynenburg and most recently, Dr. Ben Lynch, for a better understanding of the methylation ‘block’ and MTHFR issues, caused by a variety of things, but especially synthetic ‘folic acid’, environmental toxins, infections, chronic stress, etc.
I don’t understand how you can comment on it, if you’re not familiar with the work. Your statement on another page that implied we’re all ‘overmethylated’ just didn’t make sense. If “Glycine clears the excess methylation potential by getting methylated by SAMe”, then how is SAMe “harmful”?
Hi Professor Brind,
Since I read the first article of yours on diet and inflammtion I have been taking glycine as a supplement. I have also consumed more broth. Although I haven’t had any serious issues with inflammation I feel a lot more calm, I sleep better at night and my libido has improved.
When I told my father in law about this he was curious and asked me whether his conditions would be improved with glycine supplementation. He suffers from high blood pressure and feels that his medication makes him dizzy. Is high blood pressure a consequence of inflammation that would improve with glycine supplementation?
Jars of glycine from health food stores often say things like: “Promotes healthy sleep” on the label, I think mainly based on the long known fact that glycine is an inhibitory neurotransmitter in the brain. Whether it works that way or rather, by decreasing the mild discomfort of low-grade inflammation that may keep one up at night, I do not know.
As to blood pressure, I have not noticed any change in blood pressure (although mine is not particularly high, i.e., in the 140-something over 80-something range). However, your father-in-law might check with his doctor: Often, hypertension is treated with diuretics, which help eliminate sodium, coupled with a recommendation of low sodium intake. Sodium (salt) is an essential nutrient, and it has been reported that dizziness and poor balance problems can arise from sodium depletion. Whenever he gets his blood tested, sodium can be routinely checked as part of a standard chemistry and electrolyte panel.
Finally, I would reiterate that most people are glycine-deficient, so supplementation–to replace what is missing from the diet–is a good thing to do, regardless of their being any obvious immediate benefits. I have found that old nagging problems will sometimes not be resolved until after several months of glycine supplementation. This makes sense, considering that chronic ailments may have taken many years to develop. Glycine is certainly harmless to try.
You’re welcome, Sarah. Actually, you’re not the first to ask a question about glutathione, which is very much a hot topic in the health and supplement world. As you may have noticed from my figures in this post, its synthesis is also intimitely tied into the methionine/glycine pathways. So I’ve decided to make my next post all about glutathione. Stay tuned!
While I think all this glycine stuff is very promising and interesting, let’s be careful before raising these airy-fairy anecdotes that in all probability have zero to do with glycine supplementation. It begins to sound like a “cure for everything” which as we know is code for the sound that a duck makes. I don’t want to hear about it unless somebody has had a remarkable and unforseen recovery from an acute inflammatory condition.. What we need is scientific verification.
“…a remarkable and unforseen recovery from an acute inflammatory condition.” Sounds like you are looking for an anecdote as scientific verification. I have actually collected quite a number of these, and you can find some on the testimonial page of my website.
Seriously, the reason why glycine supplementation seems to correct so many problems is simply that it is a largely ignored, but very fundamental nutrient in which most people are deficient. About a century ago, B vitamins were the “miracle” nutrients that cured horrible deficiency diseases like pellagra and beri-beri.
Glycine is different in that it is a non-essential nutrient. That means the human body can make at least some of it from scratch, so no one is totally deficient in it. But if there is some level of deficiency of an important nutrient, one would expect some ill effects, effects which would be eliminated by supplying the missing substance in adequate quantity. That’s all that happens with glycine supplementation. The fact that anyone gets any benefit from it is merely the scientific verification that there was a glycine deficiency to start with. (Of course, this only makes sense if the physiological role (or roles) of glycine are established, and there is ample evidence in the literature, e.g., this 15-year-old review by Wheeler et al. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11212343)
I think the gist of what Rob is saying is valid. People on this website have generally experimented with every possible dietary intervention in existence, and been left disappointed. All of these interventions, most of which contradict one another, have seemingly airtight theoretical logic behind them, but never end up translating to the real world.
This was your question of Sept. 26: “What issues has it resolved for you, or for people you know who have tried it? You mention back pain and sunburn above.”, to which I gave a detailed answer of the various conditions that have been resolved, to my personal knowledge with glycine supplementation.
More generally, this is a popular site because many people are helped by the advice they receive here. Unfortunately, I know of no dietary cure for chronic cynicism.
I think maybe you misinterpreted what I was saying. I totally appreciate your presence here and you sharing your knowledge with us. I wasn’t directing my previous comment at your product or you, but at the general difficulty of finding something that actually works. You’ve gotta understand that, after trying a lot of different dietary supplements and regimens, its impossible not to become skeptical of any new product, especially when it is being espoused as a cure for all inflammation. This is a big claim to make, and thus it comes with a major burden of proof. You should perceive questions or doubts about your product as interest waiting to be validated, not as personal attacks.
I was drawing a distinction between skepticism and cynicism, the comment by Rob, which you seemed to second, appearing more like the latter. A skeptic’s mind is open; a cynic’s mind is closed. I’m glad you have clarified that you are indeed skeptical, but not cynical. So am I. I certainly don’t mind anyone’s questions or criticisms, but I have never espoused glycine supplementation “as a cure for all inflammation”. Indeed, the only thing glycine can cure is a deficiency of glycine!
So what I have been trying to do here is to put glycine in context as a nutrient, especially in its most unappreciated role as a natural regulator of inflammation, and it’s quantitative relationship to the intake of methionine. In my own journey of discovery, I started from an appreciation of the common misunderstanding of methionine’s place in human dietary requirements, following on animal experiments showing benefits with 80% reduction of normal methionine intake. From there the literature led me to glycine as the body’s natural clearance mechanism for excess methionine. So I tested glycine supplementation in rats to see if it could mimic the benefits of methionine restriction. (It does, partially, but clearly does more than help clear methionine.) From there, I went to self-experimentation, and then again to the literuature, to find that others in the field had established a plausible molecular mechanism by which glycine could regulate the behavior of the cells that do the actual inflammation. The self experimentation led me to what I believe is the most important discovery, namely, that Western science and medicine have had it wrong all along re: inflammation. Specifically, that even the inflammation we believe to be normal–i.e., a normal response to tissue injury like from a sprained ankle or sunburn–is in fact, pathological, and traceable to nutritional deficiencies, mainly that of glycine. In short, I discovered that the only purpose of inflammation is to fight infection. Otherwise, it just does damage. So glycine is required to maintain a healthy immune system.
So I am happy to share my knowledge through media such as 180degreehealth, and the fruits of this knowledge–sweetamine–through my website. Skeptics welcome:-)
What would be nice is a UV-exposure experiment on glycine supplemented, normal and glycine restricted rats. If results were as cut-and-dried as suggested then I presume the outcome would be a pretty big deal?
Also my undrerstanding of inflammation in sunburn was as a response to cellular damage, so the “clean-up crew” is being drawn in to the area? Wouldn’t want haywire cells running riot. Doesn’t necessarily sound pathological. Damage to the skin’s barrier function would also require activated defences. Actually wouldn’t you say inflammation is a crucial part of wound healing, for example, I’d say if you eliminated all inflammation you’d never heal a wound , probably even in sterile conditions. Maybe then the glycine rats would have poor barrier function, susceptibility to infection and increased rate of skin cancers
Is there a distinction between appropriate and inappropriate inflammation when we’re talking about the effect of sufficient glycine intake?
Did I miss something lol
There is one study in which they used collagen peptides for UV-B induced skin damage: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19352014
Collagen is 1/3 glycine (22% by weight).
Nice find Valtsu!
It looks like the Tanaka paper Vladimir found answers your first question, Rob, and confirms my own experience.
You also raise a most important and interesting point about the cells needed to clear up the debris of injured cells, and you are quite correct! But these macrophages (or neurtophilic infiltrate from the blood) should not be activated: That’s when they cause inflammation and damage. It’s rather like a large police presence around a rock concert: There is a need for a presence of first responders, but unless there is any violence, they do not draw their guns and start shooting! Of course, if there is enough damage to the barrier layer so as to let infection in, then inflammation would kick in as soon as the generic signature of bacteria was detected (It’s not a sterile world out there.)
So macrophages are pretty busy cells, and are key in the healing response. Perhaps this is why there is such confusion out there about the role of inflammation: The very same cells do both the “unarmed” work of tissue cleanup and preparation for healing, and inflammation if it is needed (or if glycine is deficient.)
I tried to look for some extra information about ultraviolet, sunburn/erythema, inflammation, etc… This page also references some interesting papers on the topic http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2012/10/04/sunburn-pufa-prostaglandins-and-aspirin/
Hi Dr Brind,
Thanks for your very informative articles.
I have a question regarding recovering from a restrictive eating disorder. Many of us recovering ( eating sufficient calories and resting) have been hit with a massive amount of edema/swelling. Some of us are dealing with it a year or even over two years in to recovery, and it’s enough to cause a very significant impact on daily life. The only answer there is is that the inflammation/ edema is needed for healing, but I’m wondering if it could be an inappropriate inflammatory reaction? Especially for those like me, who spent years on a low carb, high protein diet?
I don’t really know much about eating disorders, Kate, but I would assume the goal is to achieve healthy eating habits. But usually, what is considered healthy and complete nutrition is actually glycine-deficient, so glycine supplementation is a good idea, and it will of course put a stop to inappropriate inflammation. Whether that is indeed the problem with recovery from eating disorders, i.e., actually a result of inflammation, I do not know. But I would certainly suggest glycine supplementation, as it can only help; not hurt.
I have been eating a lot of beef tendon and would like to know how much glycine I am ingesting thereby. Unfortunately, none of the nutritional databases that I have found provide an amino acid breakdown for beef tendon. After digging around for the collagen content of tendon and the glycine content of collagen, I calculate that 6oz (170g) of tendon contains roughly 14.5g glycine. But my confidence in this calculation is low. If you are still following this thread, can you help, Prof. Brind?
I came upon your blog quite by accident…..I have a horse. I was researching the subject of laminitis (which is most definitely a significant inflammatory event for the horse’s foot that can be life ending for many horses) and came upon a website by a farrier who stated that there is an association between methionine (a common ingredient in what are considered the “best” hoof supplements for horses, and are commonly given to horses with laminitis to hopefully help them grow new hoof in a shorter period of time) and inflammation. This was the very first time I had seen such a statement but he didn’t elaborate or provide anything to back up his statement. So I googled, and found your article on the subject, relative to humans.
I have been feeding my horse a hoof supplement for the past 4 years that has 7,500 mg per scoop of methionine and other ingredients – (here is the pdf with all the ingredient information) and 200 mg. of glycine per scoop. She has been eating 1 scoop per day only, which is the maintenance dose; the label states that horses may receive up to 4 scoops a day divided into two feedings.
My concern isn’t particularly that this supplement “caused” my mare to develop laminitis, but that continuing to feed it to her while she has it and is receiving an anti-inflammatory pain reliever (Phenylbutazone) may be counterproductive or worse.
It is well known that much of nutrition and medicine that affects humans in certain ways have the same or very similar effect on equines. I am very concerned about my mare and trying to do everything possible to help her pull though this heart-rending diagnosis and hopefully she won’t have to be euthanized because of it.
I wanted your opinion on the methionine in her hoof supplement and if I should stay away from it entirely at this time. I could just give her biotin, or I could feed a different supplement with only – per scoop – 1,000 mg. of methionine but has no glycine, and also has:
Cystine (2.3%) 450 mg
Copper (2,000 ppm) 40 mg
Zinc (6,000 ppm) 120 mg
Biotin 20 mg
Vitamin B6 8 mg
I contacted the manufacturer and they are clueless about the methionine, they have never heard of any problems prior to my call, regarding any association with methionine and inflammation. It was a frustrating call for me because even though I wasn’t in any way accusing their product of “causing” the inflammation, but just wanting them to read your article and strongly suggesting that they contact you, the response I got from the woman I talked to was basically extremely defensive as though they were trying to avoid a lawsuit.
So it was not helpful to me in any way.
If 8 grams of glycine a day is required to balance the methionine in an omnivorous diet, how much glycine would be needed in a vegan diet?
your illustrations are confusing and not helpful at all. maybe you should hire a professional designer who can make something that makes sense instead of just throwing words and arrows in non-sensical ways.
I’m not finding an official label for the Sweetamine product. Where can I find this? I want official notification of what’s in each dose.
I took the drug accutane 25 years ago and have had terrible problems since with my muscles, joints and tendons. I recently found out that accutane upregulates the GNMT enzyme depleting glycine. I’m just wondering if taking glycine aswell as taking folate will help.
If you look at Dr Stephanie Seneff’s work, she suggests that glyphosate that is sprayed on wheat and other foods is substituting for glycine in our tissues, so not only are we deficient in the diet of glycine but it can’t get in due to glyphosate toxicity. All the more reason to supplement with it and to eat an organic diet.
Great blog post, Thanks!
Is the glycine supplement or powder taken with, before or after a meal?
Or is it taken on an empty stomach?
When is the best time to take glycine? All at once or spread out?
Thanks for any tips on taking glycine!