In a recent post I promised I would cease poking fun at various dietary cults out there (temporarily of course) and lay some firm ground rules in a post called ?Eating Order. I’ve spent an entire day laboriously chipping away at the idea, but unfortunately, my octopus-like mind has managed to outsmart itself.
Originally I had grand ideas ? ideas like having a healthy relationship with food means making food choices based on what you know nourishes you. Sounds good right? I mean, if you know a certain food causes your body to react in a negative way, then eating it due to some social pressure or something like that is an unhealthy relationship with food, people, and yourself.
But how is one to really know such a thing? I mean, part of the philosophy here is that if Diet C or Food A makes X person healthy but gives you an allergic reaction or makes you a type 2 diabetic, the problem is not Food A or Diet C but YOU! Avoiding Food A or Diet C doesn’t do diddley squat to fix the root problem, which probably lies in the quantity or balance of corticosteroid hormones you produce due to a unique blend of hereditary, lifestyle, psychological, and dietary factors.
Another common ?disorder? is believing that a certain food will harm you when in fact it won’t, and how is one to distinguish between myth and reality? It’s quite a gray area. But there’s no shortage of people that create self-fulfilling prophecies when it comes to certain no-no foods.Plus, a lot of people’s negative reactions to certain foods (like carbs let’s say) has to do with past diets (low-carb or low-calorie) and not some inherent genetic problem. Forcing yourself to eat the crap out of those pesky carbs that bloat you to high heaven, make your skin break out, leave you lethargic, send your appetite to the stratosphere, and pack on body fat is a great way to heal yourself.
Then there’s intuitive eating. If your circadian rhythms are all screwed up and you eat intuitively, you’ll have a half gallon of coffee and a doughnut from the time you wake up until 5pm, then you’ll ravage a normal dinner and eat 27 cookies until you pass out at 1am in the Lazy Boy, waking up a few hours later in a pile of crumbs with late night infomercials blaring (Tony Little’s Gazelle infomercial if you’re lucky).
Let your Autistic kid eat ?intuitively? and you’ll most likely see the kid eating nothing but macaroni and cheese and cheese pizza washed down with anything that comes in Blue Raspberry flavor ? eating, not so much out of biological wisdom, but out of opiate addiction.
So I don’t have all the answers (I never do but this time I’m actually admitting it, send Satan some hockey skates and a snowblower, he’ll need ?em).
What I do know is that most who really do suffer from true ?disordered eating,? or have in the past, did so because they came across some idea about diet out there, and got swept away by the thought of everlasting health Nirvana. Often a sudden weight loss with the dietary shift of several or more pounds, combined with reading a lot more of the materials put out by the allies of X dietary cult uninterrupted by contrary ideas was enough to take it from an interesting thought with a little promise into a full-on brainwashed eating regime in which ?Charlie? became gluten, or animal products, or saturated fat, or the potato.
Others just took some zany idea about hard work and suffering leading to a better life and applied it to their physical bodies, going to war against their natural appetite and desire for rest and beating those urges ?into submission? until they became very ill.
I don’t know. Be careful with what you buy into and do in the name of health.
Every dietary religion has crafted a story that ?makes so much sense? when all you are exposed to is that line of thinking without counter viewpoints. I mean seriously, people actually delude themselves into believing that carbohydrates are fattening even when there are 4 billion living exceptions to some silly cultish proclamation, like Mark Sisson’s infamous claim that eating more than 150 grams of carbohydrates per day causes ?insidious weight gain. This is quite the fascinating proclamation when the prisoners at most concentration camps died of starvation on more than 150 grams of carbohydrates per day, or that roughly 99% of the couple billion lean males on earth eat closer to that amount every meal.
Even the stupidest diet on earth, Doug Graham’s 80-10-10 raw vegan diet, actually makes sense when you read the thing to some extent. I mean, all other primates eat a diet that is 100% raw with 70-90% of calories derived from carbohydrates. So why shouldn’t we? This definitely makes more sense to me than say, eating what a group of a few thousand isolated Eskimos ate when no other humans on the face of the globe ate that way. Of course, when you try his diet you lose weight! It’s the answer to all things!
I pity the fools.
I guess one rule of thumb, if I’ve ever found one, is that if you are SURE as to what the perfect diet or lifestyle or exercise program is for you or anyone else, you are SURE to be wrong, and your health will suffer eventually from being rigid. Mental rigidity, when it comes between your body and your plate or lifestyle habits, will always fail.
If you believe something strongly, don’t go out and find more like thinkers. That only makes it worse! Challenge those beliefs and find exceptions and find opposing viewpoints until you are confused. This is not just a rule for eating, but for life and strong thinking in general. In fact, the history of my life shows me that when I have ‘strong beliefs? about anything, I do so because I’m failing to see the big picture.
And together we’ll continue to learn and grow at 180, exploring the fascinating topic of human health, and doing what we do best ? which is trying real hard to keep otherwise intelligent people from doing dumb shit in the name of health.
Yes you, I’m talking to you. Drop your utensil slowly, put your ice cold hands behind your balding head, and step away from the Tempeh.
P.S. – Although I wasn’t pleased where this was headed as I worked on it, I couldn’t help but at least include what I jotted down off the top of my head to start the Eating Order project. You may find something useful in it, so I hated not to at least put it up here somewhere?
In the last post I made lots of fun of the many modern day (and pretend Paleolithic era) forms of disordered eating. While that’s all well and good, unless we can define what ordered eating is, making fun of various dietary cults is purely entertainment.
Here, I hope to lay out some ground rules for ordered eating as well as address the many gray areas of what can be considered ordered and disordered eating. Ultimately, we’ll all have to make very personal decisions about our own relationships with food, but hopefully this will lay a foundation to help people build the right relationship, or rebuild a disordered one.
For starters, one thing that distinguishes the thinking at 180DegreeHealth from other health crusades out there is the belief that if person A eats X food or X diet and has great health and you eat X food or X diet and get fat or have an anaphylactic reaction, the problem is NOT X. The problem is YOU!
This might seem like common sense, but this is probably the most common mistake made in the entire field of nutrition. Nowhere is this one-dimensional way of thinking more prevalent than in the world of the food allergy alarmists. While food allergies are VERY real, and identifying and avoiding allergenic foods and substances can give people great short-term relief, it does absolutely nothing to address the real problem ? which is the development of an allergic reaction to benign substances. And avoiding a long list of foods and eating some other foods instead usually leads to the development of allergy to many of the new food items until a person is backed so far into a corner that there is literally nothing he or she can eat without having an adverse reaction.
Rather, food allergy should be used as a diagnostic tool that points to shortage or imbalance of the production of the various anti-inflammatory and immune-modulating corticosteroid hormones. When this approach is taken, and one starts to understand what dietary, lifestyle, hereditary, and psychological factors have contributed to the unbalanced condition, then one can go about fixing the problem at the core instead of engaging in highly-restrictive, socially-crippling, and majorly disordered eating that is potentially a bigger health problem than a minor allergic reaction to a few foods in the first place.
Okay, that’s a separate and endless tangent, and elimination-type diets will always have at least some place in the world of health and nutrition, but you know what I mean.
And, more importantly, you can see from this line of thinking how many dietary cults form. When someone has an adverse reaction to a certain food, they go on to do some research on the evils of that food, and come up with no shortage of dirt on it (even though most of the dirt on it is taken completely out of context). Weight loss of as little as 10 pounds with the dietary restriction, with or without short-term health benefits, is often enough in this ?ab-sessed? modern culture to turn someone into a total dietary Jihadist (myself included once upon a low-carb time, although I never got TOO ridiculous) saying truly dumb shit, like ?grains will give you diabetes? or ?egg yolks clog your arteries,? or ?don’t eat nightshade vegetables man, they’re not meant for human consumption? or ?don’t eat meat or you’ll get gout! And this is just what is touted from a health perspective. The wannabe morally elite often get exponentially more ridiculous with their claims.
So I guess rule #1 of Eating Order is:
Major dietary restrictions should be a last resort, not a casual first line of defense.
More importantly, when you come across some kind of dietary ideology, instead of going out and reading more and more of the material put out by the same cult, you should actively seek out OPPOSING information so that you don’t lose your head over those ideas. Once you have educated yourself in a more balanced way, thought about how it all ties into your own personal observation and experience ? or doesn’t, then you are slightly qualified to make a smart decision about tweaking your diet and lifestyle in some way in an attempt to improve your health.
But, keep in mind that whatever you decide, there is a more than 90% chance that it is WRONG. Also, your average health guru, although he or she may strongly feel that he or she possesses a level of health that it somehow superior than the rest of the population, and look the part, statistically-speaking the typical health guru has far worse health than the average person, and will die much younger than the average person ? and it will be in large part attributable to their diet and lifestyle dogma beliefs and practices. No matter how seemingly-infallible, how attractive, how shapely, how fit, or how smart your favorite health ?experts? are, there is absolutely nothing that guarantees they won’t go all Jim Fixx and die of a sudden heart attack tomorrow. Likewise, it’s awfully tough to prove that if they do live long and healthy lives, that their diet and lifestyle practices were responsible for it, or that you’ll have similar, much less identical results if you mimic their every move.
Rule #2 of Eating Order
Unless you are a health researcher or professional athlete, and even if you are a health researcher or a professional athlete, you shouldn’t spend much time thinking about your diet.
It seems like the people with the most disordered eating habits are those who spend way too much time thinking about macronutrient ratios, nutrients, calories, and other dietary elements. Discovery of all these food elements has been a tremendous disservice to the health neurotics of the world. While we try to foster an ongoing and interesting conversation about diet and health in general at 180, ultimately this should all be an act of intellectual curiosity on behalf of the participants here, and should not cloud your mind with health thoughts while you are chewing food (or inhaling it if that’s your style). Even as a health researcher dedicated to learning as much about the food-health relationship as possible in my lifetime, I too have to put in a conscious effort not to take it to the table with me, or let a new whimsical idea that popped into my head radically influence my dietary decisions. This brings us to the next rule?
Rule #3 of Eating Order
Do not ?pinball? your diet (Scott Abel’s catch term).
This means bounce around from vegan to Paleo to a cleanse to dairy-free to low-fat to macrobiotic to Atkins (hardcore orthorexics often have the temptation to do all of the above at some point in any given month). Same goes for your sleep habits, exercise habits, and so forth. Once again, to take advantage of Abel’s great knowledge, ‘the body loves regularity. It is probably much healthier to eat a #1 at McDonald’s for every meal than to swing back and forth between all these crazy forms of dietary extremism. Consistency and regularity with your eating patterns MOST of the time is a major health asset.
Since I can see 200 of you thinking busily about the exact meal that you are going to eat every single time you sit down to eat for the rest of your life, and getting out your stopwatch to time the hours, minutes, and seconds in between each feeding?
Rule #4 of Eating Order
Be flexible and relaxed about the composition of your meals, snacks, eating behavior, meal-timing and so forth.
While a little regularity is great and all, too much regularity, or limiting your food choices too much, or being overly aware of the macronutrient breakdown or calorie content of your meals is highly disordered.
"when I have ‘strong beliefs? about anything, I do so because I’m failing to see the big picture."
Yeah.
I SO get it.
I've felt strongly about a great many things that now seem utterly foolish to me.
The definition of a fanatic is someone who won't change their mind and won't change the subject.
I've been a fanatic once too many times when it comes to how I treat my body.
I'm kinda done. I say "kinda" so as not to believe it too strongly…lol
I guess I'll learn to feel comfortable living with the questions rather than falling in love with dogmatic certainty, then feeling jilted when I find flaws in the dogma.
Perhaps ambiguity is the closest we get to real truth.
Glad you clung to that one Lisa. I had originally added another sentence on to that but it ended up sounding a little too harsh. I had used the phrase "intellectual laziness." I think humans have a natural inclination to solve puzzles. The big unknowable questions seem to be the most bothersome, and many are far too quick to just pick something that makes sense, never question it, and move on with their lives. It's more of a coping strategy for the uncomfortable feeling of uncertainty than anything.
But life is a lot more interesting when you don't already know everything that's for sure.
I love your balanced approach. We're doing grain free for autism (and believe me if I didn't see a big difference I wouldn't be bothering!) and our whole family is generally following along to make it easier for my 4-year-old. But I will still admit that I like bread and have no desire to give it up for the rest of my life.
Off to read what else you have to say about autism- if you've found something better/easier than eliminating entire food groups, I'd love to know!
you are the awesomest.
yeah, i used to think i knew everything about nutrition. i actually used to eat the exact same thing for at least breakfast and lunch b/c it helped me not have to think too much about what to eat. actually, i still do that to some extent. now to counter that brain stress, we eat out whenever we want or throw in a frozen pizza or i make a box of mac 'n cheese. it's very very difficult to let go of all of the knowledge i have acquired over the last 5 years in the name of health and just eat a "normal" diet of as much and whatever food i want any time i want. we are inundated day and night by every media outlet on this planet with advice about what to eat and how to lose fat/get skinny. (believe me, i live in LA and it's unbelievably pervasive.) not that i even read the mags or watch much tv, but still. even in Whole Foods they try very hard to direct your senses toward veganism with various propaganda techniques. it's vile i tell you. eating has become a burden and depressing and exhausting and ultimately a failure. it doesn't even matter if you shrug off all of those dogmatic dietary recommendations, you are still making decisions based on some kind of "research" out there and telling people you won't eat xy or z b/c of how bad it is for you.
Great comment Team Smith. There's a fine line between being relaxed about your diet and going off the deep end (but when there are no truly forbidden foods it's hard to really fall off the deep end – most need a psychological trigger to take it to extremes).
But ultimately what makes consistent sense and is difficult to refute in any way is the best starting point for making some kind of decision about what to eat.
Something as simple as, "eating mostly food that has nutrients" is a good start for most people, as eating zero-nutrient food in large quantities is probably the single-most destructive dietary decision made in the modern world.
Yay, something new to read!
I was wondering about dietary restrictions and food intolerances… do you think there could be a genetic/ethnic component to intolerances, though? Like certain ethnic groups are supposed to have trouble with milk, etc.
I'm back into worrying about wheat… we went pretty wheat-heavy with the inlaws over the last holiday month. Usually we don't eat too much, and we make sure it's high quality… and we don't have problems. But I feel so much worse this month, and of course I'm trying to figure out what to blame. On the other hand, I also got a kidney infection and had to take Cipro (flouride, kills me), so that's the more likely problem (then again, why did I fall prey to needing antibiotics if it wasn't the relaxed diet?). Still, I've lost so much energy that all I've done for days is stare at the ceiling…
Anyhow, I'm not yet willing to say that every food is safe for everybody, maybe due to genetics? But on the other hand, most quality foods are good for most people. We really do go too far with cutting stuff out. Actually, I'm really just babbling. The brain fog is not lifting.
Mmmm, Cipro. Makes you feel awesome I bet.
Yeah, there's no question that refined foods can take a toll, and each person has his or her own threshhold that's difficult to exceed without consequence. One only need read Nutrition and Physical Degeneration to see that the amount of refined foods needed to destroy fantastically healthy people isn't always a lot.
I too can only handle so much refined sugar before things go haywire (mostly in the teeth, gums, and moods).
But ultimately people cannot psychologically put sugar in a demonic category and succeed at avoiding it. I tried that for 10 years and just kept ritualistically bingeing and feeling guilty, bingeing and feeling guilty.
Clearly there has to be some level of relaxation surrounding the whole diet thing, but it's so ethereal and individual that there's was just no way I could complete the process of writing out Eating Order rules.
Yay! Free-thinkers unite!
The seeking of like-minded souls and subsequently insulating oneself inside a little hive of cultish reinforcement has got to be the biggest common denominator of internet health forums.
Trawling through enemy territory looking for the most ludicrous statements from the most batshit crazy representatives, so that these can be dragged back to the hive to be sneered over, is what passes for 'challenging one's beliefs,' for a lot of people who show the raw intelligence to do better that that.
For me, it helps to have my personal wellbeing and love of learning as the only dogs in the fight. If I lectured my entire social network on the certain peril of lectins/carbs/red meat/whatever for long enough or made it some cornerstone of my identity I don't know how much objectivity I'd have when opposing ideas turned up.
Beckanne
Thanks for your thoughtful posts, I enjoy your blog very much.
I find that is helpful for me to have a reference point for what is healthy. I feel like part of my reference comes from the work of Weston A. Price who looked at what healthy isolated people groups ate. They ate lots of different things but there were some patterns. Real foods, healthy fats, feremented foods of some type, animal or seafood products and a whole variety of vegetables and fruits.
The isolated people seperated from modern foods like white flour and sugar could eat whatever they wanted to. We don't necessarily have that luxury because all of the proccessed food should be considered, "Not Food".
Also when you think about Food Order you may want to think about the nutrient density of the foods. A chicken that eats soy waste products and high fructose corn syrup is not going to nourish you like a chicken that gets to eat insects and grass and whatever else healthy chickens eat. It isn't just what you eat, it is what your food eats.
Same could be said for Soil quality. Vegetables grown in rich soil will deliver better results than vegetables grown on depleted soil.
Beckanne for president!
Dave-
Weston A. Price as well as T.L. Cleave, Robert McCarrison, Denis Burkitt, and so forth all laid some pretty good foundations.
But everyone interprets them differently depending on what agenda they are promoting.
Price didn't see everyone fermenting foods, or eating vegetables, and only a couple ate fruit for example.
What he did see, and that Cleave and Burkitt and McCarrison saw, is that they ate at least some animal foods and no refined carbohydrates. That's as fundamental as it gets, but in today's modern food environment just telling everyone not to eat refined carbs is insufficient advice. It's easier said than done, and the psychology of restrained eating has proven, and is proving to be as big of a health detriment if not a bigger one than processed foods themselves.
Not only that, but trying to mimic the Eskimo diet, or the rural Zulu diet (90% carbs), or the Masai diet tends to make modern humans very sick. There is layer upon layer of complexity there. Keeps me out of trouble I guess.
This is a neat post. Even though I know you've got a huge reading list already lined up for this year, you seem to have reached a conclusion here… One of the most profound of your messages was summarized in red: "I don’t know. Be careful with what you buy into and do in the name of health." It's already such a valuable service just to dispel all the crazy things people try, and getting them to value their feelings again and consider the traditional wisdom that used to be common but is almost entirely lost. It's good to get everyone on the same page about the basics of diet and lifestyle and metabolism.
But it's troubling to consider why many of us were driven to do crazy things in the first place. I mean, for the "adrenal type", all that is needed is food, bedrest, and fresh air. Great goal to get to, but for many of us our health problems persist, albeit a little better than before. We've found out what not to do, but what do we do? I know you're enthusiastic about food– had a personal renaissance with it– but I don't think the majority of people should expect it to heal them. For some of us it most likely extends beyond the intended scope of your research. I worry more about toxins. Hormones are obviously an important and extensive topic too.
Since my comment will be close to the top, and this subject is about "Be careful what you buy into", I've been meaning to spread the word about Mark Starr, since you have based so much on his book "Hypothyroidism Type II". I went to see him personally, and I tell you, I don't believe he has "successfully treated thousands of patients". I was appalled. Sure, he offers desiccated thyroid and Lugol's Iodine, but his other treatments include: Homeopathic "healing patches", shoe insoles that are like a centimeter thick, a thing that measures the electric flow from where your wisdom teeth were removed, TONNNNNNS of strange supplements, an energy rock or something… it goes on. The worst of all, which convinces me that he is either insane or some kind of con artist, is that he used the "kinesiology" technique of having you hold something in one hand and he presses down on your arm to check the resistance. Only he even took it to a more ridiculous level. He closed his eyes and ASKED OUT LOUD a question such as how much my dosage should be, and then OBVIOUSLY PRETENDED to either be able to press down my arm or not. The outright deception and/or lunacy left me stunned. I'm a complete idiot for not walking out without paying, but… that's what happened. $300 down the drain. I mean it's just so confusing, because his book is so well written, so well referenced, and his practice is just so far from it. I mean, it provokes the question– who would do that? If this theory and treatment with thyroid and iodine are true, why would he resort to being an insane con artist instead of just healing people? I don't know about Broda Barnes now, I don't know about anything. And Iodine can harmful… I don't want to risk taking relatively large quantities, not after that experience. I can't trust the whole thing. Aside from being so creepy, he LOOKS LIKE A CADAVER in person. I can't believe that anyone who has such poor health himself actually has any keys to health.
So that's my story and I'll leave it up to you what to make of it. I've dealt enough with the alternative health crowd that I would doubt what any "doctor" who has a book or writes an article says. The other big mistake I've made is attempted to change my skull structure through a device that widens the maxilla. In a 25 year old adult such as I was, it DOES NOT WORK. It simply splays out the teeth. But these practitioners are either very delusional or straight up con artists. I confronted mine with undeniable before and after x-ray evidence that it did nothing after a year of treatment and she still denied it. They will blindside you with technical jargon and seem very sane and trustworthy, but they are definitely not.
(The evidence I put together is this video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdxEsft8U20)
So my point is, be skeptical of books, and what these alternative doctors who are supposedly "fighting the good fight" will tell you about patients. I have just experienced this over and over. It's a dangerous world.
OMG Jared that really scares me too. That's why I hate going to any naturopath – money out of pocket and down the drain if they turn out to be quacky. That's funny about him looking like a cadaver. I too have trouble accepting advice from somebody who's obviously not in good health. Still, better than the drug-pushers… sometimes.
I finally gave in and went to one for my adrenals. She seemed sane at first, but then she wanted to put me on the genotype diet (after a few more paid office visits to take all the necessary measurements for said diet). After reviewing the book and doing my measurements by myself, for free! this weekend, I decided it is DEFINITELY quackery. And I paid good money to somebody who believes in this… So do I go back to her when the results from my saliva tests come in and hope she'll be good at hormones anyway? Or spend more money for some other doctor who may believe in who knows what…
It's not just being careful about what you believe in for food, but also for "health" care in general.
Matt, I've thought for awhile now that trying to mimic a "healthy" primitive/tribal type diet is a bad idea, because we'll never really eat like the group we're trying to mimic, unless we actually live with them and eat with them. I mean, what American is going to eat the rotted (fermented) foods, strange animal parts, grubs, or who-knows-what that is a typical part of that group's diet? We don't really know how all the foods they eat interact with each other and even the climate they live in. Even if I wanted to pretend to be Inuit and I did manage to choke down seal blubber (FedEXed straight from Baffin Island!) and every other thing they ate, who's to say that it would be healthy for me here in Hawaii. And as a side note, seal meat (I dunno about blubber) is… unique.
There is just way too much about our very own bodies that we don't know… and it gives me a headache. Damn, I just ate half a bag of chocolate chips for the first time in two years (stupid antibiotics messing me up). One big dose of Fukitol to follow them down. No, I still don't feel so good… What was that part about intuitive eating and only eating what made you feel healthy?
Wow Jared, your story was amazing to read. I'm shocked to hear about Starr whom I regarded as a good doctor… WTF?? After years of trying to sort out my health problems I can nothing but agree it is of utmost importance to be skeptical. Are you taking desiccated thyroid yourself?
I've been taking thyroid for about a year now, based on measuring temps as per Matt's blog, Barnes, Starr… Some issues have definitely gotten much better for me during this time, which tells me I have a metabolism issue, BUT some did not resolve and a few extra problems crept in. Like eyesight loss, plus lately some abnormal PAP smears, which scared the hell out of me so I'm now in the process of getting myself off of thyroid. Does anyone here have any experience in how to stop desiccated thyroid? Like can one just stop altogether or does one have to gradually reduce dosage? I'm guessing it's the latter!
Matt, a question regarding eyesight – in your experience, is it possible to reverse loss of sight or is that a permanent thing? Loved your "New Eating Disorders" post, btw :)
"I've thought for awhile now that trying to mimic a "healthy" primitive/tribal type diet is a bad idea, because we'll never really eat like the group we're trying to mimic, unless we actually live with them and eat with them"
The notion of trying to attain health simply by eating like traditional cultures apparently did (based solely on the observations of a western outsider) was finally put to rest for me when I read Don Matezs' post about the Masai supplementing their supposed all-animal diet with over 20 different herbs or something like that.
If that part was missed, I wonder what else was missed. Also, I have difficulty in believing that idea the natives would be divulging everything to a foreigner they didn't know from a bar of soap. And I'm sure that food wasn't/isn't the whole story, anyway.
Not that I'm dissing Weston A. Price or any of the other travelling researchers. And FWIW I'm still a WAPF member.
By the way, if the Masai *supplement* their diet with plants that apparently have no nutritional value, and therefore are not a food as such, does that mean they suffer from supplorexia?
Ian2.
Matt
Not to take anything away from your quality of writing, as always, excellent. And your thoughts profound. But I must admit, that for me this was the most depressing article I have read.
For over a year now, I have fought and fought. Somehow I 'knew' there had to be a way to fix the damage I had done. I wouldn't let myself go. I kept eating, and trying. Seeing doctors and trying all sorts of pills and potions. Tried every diet and food. Everything has failed miserably.
When I came across you and your ideas, I had hope. Again. Always again. There was so much passion in your quest, and so much conviction. And well, it started out working for me! Back and forth. But after the third completely sleepless night in a row, filled with panic and tears, ready to keep trying, maybe add something or subtract, I read this post. And for the first time today, I had no desire to get up and 'keep trying.'
Lately there has been so much conflicting information you have been throwing out. Be regular, be flexible, don't eat this, do eat this… Maybe it's cause you got your health back and now your bored seeking health? That would be nice! haha!
Honestly I am completely lost in what I am doing. And yes, I realize it's probab;y disordered to have that much faith in your 'research.' But there is literally nothing left. And now you are throwing out 'I don't knows,' and 'eat sugar.'
???
From someone who spent about 17 hours a day searching for answers in bed physically incapable of doing anything on their own to the point of having been in a wheel chair, to somewhat functional following your advice, this is getting confusing.
So Matt, can you tell me some other blogs to read to get an opposing viewpoint from all this critical-thinking, everything-in-moderation, skepticism cult stuff?
I would like to add, that perhaps this post is just poking me in my 'rexia' but at this point in my life, I feel like if I didn't have a fascination with experimentation and research, I would not have a life. So if I may pose the question….
At what point of health or unhealth is it orderly to be slightly disordered? Lord knows the way I got myself sick was wrong, but eating 'normal' at 5000 cals a day made me very ill, while 3000 to 4000 of whole foods, has, well I function somewhat…
Let your Autistic kid eat ?intuitively? and you’ll most likely see the kid eating nothing but macaroni and cheese and cheese pizza washed down with anything that comes in Blue Raspberry flavor ? eating, not so much out of biological wisdom, but out of opiate addiction.
Shit. This is me all over. I've long suspected that I have some kind of autism-spectrum disorder, no wonder I can't seem to kick sugary caffeine drinks, loved macandcheese, and pizza.
After reading that post… crap, I don't know what to do now. I suppose I'll just follow Gabriel's advice and eat what I want, when I want, and make sure that I eat something nutritious at the same time as I eat the junk. At least the vitamins and minerals will mitigate some of the damage from the nutrient-free foods.
"The big unknowable questions seem to be the most bothersome, and many are far too quick to just pick something that makes sense, never question it, and move on with their lives. It's more of a coping strategy for the uncomfortable feeling of uncertainty than anything."
Well, we have a regular Dr. Phil on our hands.
There is one "rule" that I guess I am a fanatic about and that is eating "real" food over the long run will serve folks best.
Rachelle, ha, I think it's unfortunate that this has become one of the more cultish, group-think blogs (I don't know if anything can surpass Daily Apple) although there used to be more open and opposing discussions in the comments. Whole Health Source and Hyperlipid probably have the best overall comments, as neither section is filled with, "…Stephan's/Peter's diet is the best!"
> trying real hard to keep otherwise intelligent people from doing dumb shit in the name of health.
haha that is genius.
But what can I do about this fructose malabsorption thing. The fukitol didn't work on that one. Avoiding it works to some extent but at some point I can't keep it up and end up bloating, farting, and sometimes bingeing…
Several thoughts come to mind from this post:
1. If you want to eat like a primitive and be healthy, you might need to live like one too. Primitives don't sit in chairs all day staring at screens. Everything is muscle powered. This means hours of very low intensity exercise per day: walking, weaving nets, grinding grains, etc.
2. Every plant food is poisonous to some degree, else the bugs would eat them. In nature most foods are seasonal. You don't get blueberries in January in North Carolina without high speed freight from the southern hemisphere! It could be that the optimal diet is dynamic. What is good today can be bad next week.
An example of dynamic dieting. Excess sugar consumption causes yeast overgrowth. Low carb diet starves out the yeasts. After some time you need carbs again to restore metabolism.
In nature sugar is seasonal. You see a tree laden with fruit you binge eat the fruit before it spoils. Build up a bit of fat orangutan style. Fruit runs out and you eat something else or even fast a bit.
Maybe I should write a book called Dynamic Dieting (TM) and become a guru with thousands of slavish followers…
Don't confuse intuitive eating with ignorant eating. Intuitive eating is not just about eating what you want, but learning how food affects your body and the way you feel. I mean seriously, if you break out in hives and contemplate suicide every time you eat wheat, that can have a serious affect on how much you "want" to eat it! My feeling about intuitive eating is that it takes the morality out of eating (no more "good" food vs. "bad" food), and allows you to make more objective decisions about what you eat–out of internal curiosity and understanding rather than external rules and restrictions.
John-
I apologize for not talking about food, food, food, and food all the time and how certain tweaks here and there affect this biomarker and this ratio in this prospective study. I know it's a wild idea that there may be other factors involved besides what we eat, or that there may actually be something unique about the modern environment or the hereditary uniquness of modern man that needs to be taken into consideration.
Jared-
Legendary comment. I've heard consistently for 2 years that Starr is a wacko, which saddened me because in writing he is so sharp. But you're right. We just don't know and no one can be trusted. What people say works is meaningless. What they use as evidence of their beliefs is meaningless.
Ian2-
Each tribe had a massive amount of accumulated wisdom that guided dietary habits and choices. Today we kind of cherry-pick things and mix and match it all together in a way that is incomparable to the actual traditional diets themselves. An upcoming post on epigenetics will also throw some more kinks in there, as epigenetic triggers prepare the next generation to enter into a similar world that the parents are living in. This is perhaps why radically shifting to a totally different diet that your lineage hasn't eaten for the past several generations has such a high failure rate.
Getting Weary-
Each person's situation is unique. There is no doubt that eating nutritious foods, supplying the body with what it needs, and not skimping on various macronutrients or calories is the ultimate dietary foundation of approaching any kind of rehabilitation. I'm not surprised that you have gotten results.
This post is more about voicing concerns with people who are constantly looking for the right dietary permutation that will cure all that ails them, and approach their dietary choices with debilitative obsessiveness – waiting to cure some minor complaint before they can move on with their lives.
This whole tangent has more to do about the psychology of restriction and obsessiveness than food itself – and being realistic.
But am I uncertain that following the general guidelines of RRARF will help the vast majority of people achieve about all that can be achieved with a simple dietary revision like that? No. At the end of the day, it works, and persistence in eating an abundance of real food is always the safest bet when it comes to using a dietary change to prevent and combat a myriad of illnesses.
Rachelle-
Just put anything between www and .com of than 180degreehealth.blogspot and you should find something.
@ Getting weery
Matt is not contradicting his previous advice. The point, if I see it correctly, to not follow some gurus who advertise something as a cure all and thereby damaging their health. Mostly those gurus found something that worked for them for some time and they believe that it is the holy grail and will cure everyone and everything. However, this is a mistake. People will try his advice and maybe it will work for a little, but fail them later and get them into deeper trouble. But the memory of how it once helped them is so deeply ingrained in their brain that they don't want to give up and get deeper and deeper into the shit. Once the damage is done they look for the next guru. I've been down that road.
It's about re-establishing a healthy relationship with food. Sure you should eat whole foods most of the time, but you should not suppress your cravings too much because the pressure will stress you out(unless of course eating that food will do you real harm of course, then you should stay away, like a celiac should not give in to craving wheat). Stress is as important as or probably more important than diet. Staying "clean" in social situations, while travelling etc. can result in considerable stress. Brooding over your diet all the time can do the same.
There is no holy health grail out there. There is research and there are experiences that may guide you. But these can only give you so much insight into the question. They are never absolute. They need to be put into perspective. Once you make them absolutes in your head, you may run into problems.
oh sorry, I was still typing when Matt already posted his reply lol
Cool post Matt.
I think people could express their concerns about HED/RARRF not working so that 180degree health can move forward.
There are a lot of "sticking with it" type attitudes around here. To me that's a bad sign sometimes- Like something might not be working for them.
Anyways here it goes:
I didn't do well with eating to appetite because my digestion is terrible. Only HCL supplements allow me to eat normally. Maybe others have similar problems?
Thyroid might increase HCL production and starve out bacteria, But some might not be able to eat enough to get to that point. Maybe that's one thing that contributes to people not doing well with RRARF/HED.
Thanks Elizabeth. That was my original intent. But I talked myself out of it because many people's negative symptoms when encountering various foods can be overcome. Identifying a problem food and avoiding it is often what lights the path to real orthorexic tendencies.
Or take for example someone who is underweight. Their response to all food is resoundingly negative. Foggy-headedness, bloat, indigestion, allergy, mood swings, blood sugar roller coaster, breakouts, yeast…
Intuitive eating is more of an end destination. But a sick body is hard to trust sometimes, and RRARF, which is obviously not intuitive at all, is effective precisely because it challenges the digestion, metabolism, etc. to respond and adapt in a postive manner – increasing physical strength, the ability to digest and tolerate more foods, and so on.
So intuitive eating has its limitations.
My focus recently has been just trying to get people to remove the guilt and reward psychology attached to eating, which has obviously backfired as some strangely think they are supposed to go out and eat a bunch of junk food now, to which they report feeling like crap, to which I respond, "duh."
I'm more concerned with people beating themselves up over eating foods they want to eat, junk food or otherwise. To get to a point where you eat to nourish yourself instead of eating to reward yourself or out of punishment for eating something naughty, it takes a total departure from filing foods into the good and bad categories.
And there is so much individuality there. For some, it's really stressful and taxing to make homemade food, go to social gatherings and be offered junk food, and all the other subtle complexities that are tied up with our relationship to food, eating, socializing, and so on.
That's why I couldn't lay out a strict set of simple rules. It's not a simple matter.
I must admit that I have been waiting for this post but as I was waiting I came to the same conclusion as Matt did. The pursuit of perfection is what hurts us. If there is a perfect diet out there then we have to get our hands on it but the truth is there is no perfect. None of the tribes had perfect health. I actually commend Matt for this post and his humility in saying there is no perfect eating order rather than doing like most gurus and saying they know the exact way. We need to learn to really listen to our bodies and be in tune with our situation in order to feed ourselves what the body truly needs. The focus should be on real foods and living life. We spend so much time on these blogs that we end up stressing ourselves out, creating more rules and losing touch with ourselves. It's funny how most of the ppl I know with great health know 5% of what I know nutrition wise.
Matt,
Good post. I hope people will realize that diet is not the only thing that influences health. I first realized this a couple of years ago when I was consulting with a fairly well known diet guru PHD. After both of realized that the diet was not going to work for me he finally admitted that he no longer believed that diet was all that important. He still makes a living selling his diet though.
Even Jack Lalanne, the biggest health nut in the world has said that diet is less important than physical activity.
Carl,
I agree with your basic idea on the importance of variety. The best nutrition advice I ever hear was "diversify your toxins".
I have to disagree about the seasonality of fruit. Most tropical locations in which humans are obviously suited to survive have fruit available all year. Some fruits may come in and out of season, but they are always available.
Thanks again Hans…
That's why this site is about looking at various angles, as many as possible, and helping people to figure out how to think for themselves when it comes to their health.
Look at Jared and Lorelei's experiences above. People are nuts out there. I had someone report to me this week that a "professional" suggested she have her thyroid removed to help rid her of wanting to eat more than 200 grams of carbohydrates per day, which she was told would assuredly make her fat and diabetic. And of course, all it took was a quick stop at a sushi restaurant to make those cravings go away. (this was advice given by one of the most prestigious eating disorder recovery clinics???)
If we don't each take our own health into our own hands, we risk getting medicated, sliced and diced, and led down the path of dietary destruction – or having our auras looked at and muscles tested by delusional douchebags like Mark Starr.
I don't want to be just another one of those people that attract an audience ready to soak up my magical list of "Eat this and don't eat that." That is an injustice which will lead to having a few people follow along for a short while, not look like a cover model or be able to jump over tall buildings by the end of the week, and move on to the next guru or drug or form of hormone enhancement that promises to serve all that up.
Oshioke-
I'm glad you see where I'm coming from instead of succumbing to feelings of exasperation that this post wasn't the final one that answered everyone's prayers once and for all. There is no perfect anything. Humans always distort reality and expect either way more or way less than what reality provides, which is precisely what makes us so vulnerable to those who are willing to exploit our unrealistic desires.
Matt, I think we're saying a lot of the same things here, though I think we might each be interpreting intuitive eating in a different light. For instance, making a departure from filing foods into good and bad categories is exactly what intuitive eating is.
Of course, intuitive eating has its limitation because obviously any plan or process will be perceived and applied in different ways by a vast array of unique individuals with unique issues to deal with.
To clarify where I'm coming from: for me, RRARF brought out more orthorexic tendencies because it was yet another plan that told me when and how and what to eat. It just didn't fly with my intentions of improving my relationship with my body and food in general. Not saying that RRARF itself is inherently flawed, but obviously I personally wasn't able to interpret it and apply it in a positive way beyond the first couple of weeks. This has way more to do with me than RRARF itself.
Hope this makes sense. For me, intuitive eating struck a much deeper chord than just being about eating whatever you want or whatever feels right. It was way more about changing the way we view food and our choices surrounding it. It gets rid of the idea of dietary perfection and allows for an unbelievable amount of flexibility.
John,
It may be true that Matt has some followers that seem a bit like groupies. But, I don't think Matt has encouraged this behavior. I post very frequently on this blog and the majority of my posts have been in opposition to RRARF orthodoxy, and Matt has never tried to censor me even though many of his devoted followers saw me as a heretic. Even most of the groupie think is limited mostly to a few of the female followers and not the majority.
Perfectly said Elizabeth. And RRARF is really a strategy that is put together to achieve a very specific objective – which is raise body temperature, increase digestive strength and transit time, rest the adrenal glands, and get in the habit of relying more heavily on homemade as opposed to processed food – and also get out of the habit of undereating.
But even in RRARF I talk about graduating to a much more relaxed and real-world functional diet once you've given it a chance to do whatever it is going to do for you. That's because long-term restrictions cause problems – both physically and psychologically.
JT-
Yes, which is why I've tried so hard to capitalize on having dissenters here over the years. Some don't like to argue or be confronted with opposing viewpoints. It's not comfortable that's for sure. But it's incredibly valuable and productive. Thanks again. Your contribution to this blog is much bigger than most people realize.
JT,
I agree, I think Matt's posts are useful. There are too many comments though on people's health not improving with RRARF, and others just saying, "Keep doing it. It takes a long time," without further explanation.
Matt,
I didn't mean to put down the content of your posts. But, I do think that people tend to separate aspects of health too much. I brought up the other week that a bodybuilder avoiding cake with willpower is different than someone on a restrictive diet who simply doesn't crave it. You could say food affects hormones affects "cravings" affects food…So, orthorexia itself may be a result of an imbalance, and you can't consciously avoid it–you probably agree to an extent.
It took me a long time to give up certain things, but I don't feel restricted or stressed.
So JT, I am curious… I know you did a more schwarzbein approach to healing yourself, but how does being restrictive that way lead you you being able to consume sugar without feeling like garbage now?
Just thought I'd share where I am right now with EATING ORDER:
I feel closer and closer to intuitive eating every day– but only in the FOODS I want to/choose to eat, not yet the amounts. I just eat until the potatoes/veggies/meat are all gone rather than when my body says "FULL!" But I really feel like I am intuitively deciding against eating sugar or artificial sweeteners– they make me feel immediately off balance. I can do some dark dark chocolate, but the nice thing is that I don't even want it that often. I'm off caffiene, and so now I can really tell that chocolate gives me a buzz, so I intuitively know I would rather not eat it after 4pm or so! Who knew?? I don't eat fruit every day, but I can listen to my body and know when, after a workout, I usually can use a banana or something. It's great!
Just got to get the amounts down pat.
And, figure out if I actually have food intolerances– I've been avoiding soy (actually allergic), wheat, and dairy for a while and my asthma has improved. But I miss yogurt because I think it helps my digestion, and wheat is dysfunctional for me to avoid in certain situations since I"m not actually celiac. We'll see, I'm going to keep on pushing :)
This reminds me of a notion that maybe Dr Klinghardt mentioned on some article on Mercola's newsletter. he talked about thE different spheres of health- emotional, mental, physical, etc. And you can only fully resolve an issue in the sphere it originiated in. Which might explain why the most nutritious diet doesn't always resolve everyone's concerns. You can help often, it seems, but possibly not fully resolve it.
Hooray for multi-pronged approaches.
John,
Matt has told these people that he RRARF is supposed to be a temporary thing, so the people that keep doing it are doing it out of their own ignorance. I have always said that it would be good for some and bad for some depending on what type of imbalance the person has.
Matt's strength as a health writer is as a critic of the industry and diets. That is when he does his best work.
Wheezy,
I did a low fat bodybuilder type of diet with lots of exercise. I can consume sugar without problems because I eat lots of carbs so my body is used to using it as fuel, and I do a very high volume of exercise, so I burn it all up.
JT, I think you make a good point. It depends largely on what you as an individual needs. I'm sure that my personal experience with RRARF (not really negative, to be clear) had a lot to do with the fact that I'd been eating a normal amount of food and avoiding excess exercise for several months already, and working on overall metabolic improvements for two years. So I wasn't in an underfed or over-exercised state, and didn't necessarily need the extra food or rest.
However, for me, doing full RRARF last October did give me a good jump start in the direction I'm going now with my health (and my blog), so I can't argue with that!
Great post and comments – reminds me of the pbs online video i watched yesterday on Buddha. Suffering was explained as a result of foolish desire. Any foolish desire here – to lose 10 lbs, have a body that's the envy of everyone around you, become a righteous food guru, it's all gonna lead to some suffering. Once any of these desires takes the place of the only #1 desire that makes sense – to be happy no matter what – imbalance sets in. Let's give up some of these weird food desires and be happy people! As far as we know, we only get one chance here. Anyway, the Buddha video is good if you're looking for a relaxing show on perspective.
Matt
Why do you think rrarf works so well for some and not others? Do you think there is a point of no return possibly?
JT
I've been doing RRARF, but can't get beyond a certain point, which I seem to just revolve around. A few days of energy followed by a few days of depressive emotional crash. And my tests aren't coming out any better. Although I do feel better.
I know if this is fixable, it will take time, but I am not sure how to tackle it. RRARF has been great, but def is not sustainable. But neither is being bedridden.
I have started to incorporate small amounts of exersize, hoping to get hormones to begin turning around, maybe actually gain an appetite.
I am curious as to the high carb approach you took. I am doing a rather high carb version myself, but still having the highs and the crashes. And I would love to have a friggin peice of cake again.
Do you mind elaborating on why you chose the approach you did? If I recall, you had low carbed once as well? And why are you against RRARF, or rather, what do you see faulty about it?
JT: better do some fact checking on the availability of fruit. With farming this may be true in the tropics today. And in may be true in some tropical areas.
But what I do know is that orangutans become amazingly fat eating sugar because fruit is not available year around. While there are not seasons as we temperate types know it, there are times of massive fruit bearing and times of scarcity.
A female orangutan will not get pregant unless grossly fat. The calorie dense food supply is too unpredictable. For orangutans, fat is sexy.
So with dietary experimentation in trying to come back from being severly ill, is it disordered to try to find what foods make one gain health?
For instance, two people have now told me that potatoe (nightshade) glykoalkaloid poisoning can be causeing my insomnia, and worse acne. But then again, so does dairy. But perhaps it's the potatoes that are underlying, and make me think I am reacting! I don't want to be intolerant, but I don't want to be sick forever either.
Does anyone else have improvements cutting out specific foods and able to add them in later?
Thoughts on this?
"An upcoming post on epigenetics will also throw some more kinks in there, as epigenetic triggers prepare the next generation to enter into a similar world that the parents are living in."
Sounds good to me.
I remember reading something a while ago where the researcher put forward the idea that kids who are born to parents who ate a nutritionally sparse diet are very likely to be born into starvation mode from the get-go.
Same with how out-of-whack hormones in the parent(s) can wire the child in a certain way and all that.
Probably part of the why my nervous system has always been a bit kooky.
Ian2.
Jared's Mark Starr story is scary. I wonder if he just decided he could be making a lot more money if he offered a lot of dodgy new Age "therapies" to up his take home cut from every visit. I think lots of MDs get kickbacks for pushing drugs on us. It's really no different.
I was reading a website a while back that had advice for adrenal fatigue. Most of it was fairly straight foward stuff about diet. Stuff that anyone could follow that wouldn't be enriching the guy who wrote it. Mixed in was a lot hokum that set off alarm bells left and right: Potatoes are too yin. Or is it Yang? Use my specially formulated supplements. Buy my special sauna that is really just a cotton tent and an infrared light bulb for $600.
Matt
Cool, post. I enjoy the humorous lines, LOL. Thanks for keeping it entertaining.
My 2cents on the ordered/disordered eating issue: I think very often our tastes are what is disordered. People's willpower is limited and when it is pushed to far (in my experience) stress in binging result. Will can and maybe should be used, but not to produce some specific health outcome, but rather to reduce the future need of willpower. This is possible because we can change our tastes. For example, I've gotten myself to not crave sugar by strategically avoiding it. The important thing to note is that for me the effort required was only temporary.
I understand that others are coming from a different situation than I so this idea may not help in all cases, but I do believe that it is possible to forge new habits refine our tastes and this may be a good strategy for some.
Carl,
I have spent quite a bit of time in the tropics, so I don't need to do any fact checking because I have been there, seen it, and eaten it. but, you are right, there will be times when it is more or less. I used to believe the same thing because I had heard Low carb gurus say it, but I am pretty sure they are wrong about everything.
Ever since i saw that old Clint Eastwood movie orangutans have been my favorite primate, so I will read up a little more on their diets.
JT the 'Heretic"
Really? I never saw you that way. And I must be one of the female groupies you mention, even though I barely did three weeks of rrarf.
I just have my Mattie arguements off blog so maybe that makes you think that I agree with every precious word he writes.. :) mostly I do though.
hmmm.
That jaw widening thing is just amazing. There are Tons of people willing help you on one hand and take your wallet with the other hand. Met a few my own self.
I cannot tell you how vile the chinese medicine tea I tried for fertility was, it makes me gag just thinking about it. And yeah, it did not work, nor did the Clomid, progestrone, and horrible tests that the fertility drs put me through at great expense and personal distress.
So how did I have a child at nearly 42 after three miscarriages?
I took a year off of trying, focused on me and took a HUGE dose of fukitol. I am one of the lucky ones, but the lesson is, trying too hard with ANYTHING involving the body is usually a waste of time and effort and possibly harmful.
I think that is what The Stonehenge is trying to spell out here.
later
the (frozen) hag :)
Wheezy,
Why don't you give us a little more detail on your situation. Background history, diet, tests, medication, lifestyle, symptoms, etc…
Deb,
I actually wasn't thinking of any individual in particular when i wrote that comment. Matt is getting to be sort of a rock star in the diet blogging world so groupies are to be expected. I just hope he can handle all the women, and his girlfriend is cool.
Intresting read
JT I think you want to hear "getting weary"'s history, not mine ;)
However, I wanted to comment on your sugar thing- and ask a question–
1. Did it take you a while to decrease the fat in your diet and not experience blood sugar crashes? I get ravenous quickly if my meal doesn't have like a Tbsp of fat in it… weird
2. I think that sugar is definitely more tolerable when you're exercising. I'm just trying to figure out my own personal limits with the amt I exercise vs. the amt I can eat without weight gain/mood disturbance. How much "high volume exercise" and what kind do you do?
I don't think you should necessarily follow only one traditional diet, but was going more for principles from different traditional groups.(like getting lots of fat soluble vitamins) Their lifestyles probably play a big part in their health as well.
Do you have something against fermentation? If you want sometime you could come over for a fermenting party…
I guess what I am saying is there is a lot of wisdom from traditional groups about what to eat and how to prepare it(by way of Sally Fallon.. and others)
JT
I ahve an eating disorder and running myself into the ground background. At this point, I don't digest and don't assimilate. Intollerant to about everything. Tried the fukitol approach but I digest even worse and feel super bad eating dairy or nightshades. I never had any intolerances before starving myself.
I do have insulin resistance, and insomnia. Poor energy and concentration during the day. Nausea, automatic eject food (I have to force it down and hold it, sometimes it comes up anyway) nothing tastes good. No appetite.
I have had every test in the book. Tried hormones. Failed miserably. Wound up in the emergency room every time on thyroid.
Hypoglycemic, hungry all the time, but can't eat…
Potatos rev me up. I have some anxious clarity, and I don't fall asleep for days. If I cut them out, like today, it's like a total drug withdrawal complete with migraines, and vomiting. I read that solanine plays with acetylcholine receptors and activates the nervous system, which makes sense cause my heart beats fast and I can't sit still.
I know that not eating caused these intolerances, but I dunno, I feel like maybe i am past a certain point of no return right now. I am still underweight despite having gained 15 pounds, which I have now lost some again.
Any thoughts?
Oh, with the no appetite, I am hungry all the time if that makes sense. So hungry I am shaking. Especially at night.
I have gone pretty high carb, with added fat and some protein. Not sure if it's too much or too little protein. I don't eat meat with every meal. Sometimes it's beans or whatever. It's hard to get enough calories in to gain weight…
"If you believe something strongly, don’t go out and find more like thinkers. That only makes it worse! Challenge those beliefs and find exceptions and find opposing viewpoints until you are confused. This is not just a rule for eating, but for life and strong thinking in general. In fact, the history of my life shows me that when I have ‘strong beliefs? about anything, I do so because I’m failing to see the big picture."
You need to put this in the free ebook or in your disclaimer. When I first started reading 180 I thought you were a little psycho. "Eat 4 sticks of butter with every meal". Next day, "12 billion people don't eat any butter, quit eating so much friggin butter".
Now I realize I was the psycho. Thanks for that.
If I've learned anything from following this blog for — what, three years now, can it be? — is that there's no perfect diet that will solve everyone's problems. And I'm deeply suspicious of anyone who claims there is. So I deeply respect your decision, Matt, to not take the easy way here and write a diet and sell it as the second coming. Because you could and you'd be wildly successful. But you wouldn't be right.
There are, however, better ways of eating than others. I look forward to reading more of what you have to say on this topic.
weary — I think I felt very much the same way you do when I was pregnant: hungry with no appetite. Maybe you've thrown your hormones out of whack with your ED. Here's what I did: I found a handful of foods I could eat and only ate them for a while until I felt better. Invariably they were "bad foods" that were easy to digest: buttered pasta, toast. NOT beans, which are really tough to digest, as are most raw foods. Sounds to me like you are getting tangled up in what feels okay to eat and what you believe is okay to eat. Go with what you CAN eat, at least for now.
@ getting weary
For someone who has trouble gaining weight, I would recommend taking animal protein with every meal and eating white rice with a good amount of fat. That will make it easier to get in those calories. I wouldn't eat potatoes too much and I would skip the beans. Also eat enough vegetables, those that agree with you, well cooked.
maggieo
I think you are right. I am too afraid to eat 'bad' foods. Changing that today. White rice. EEK! Also, not going to try to eat crap loads in three meals, but do the 5 meal thing. And yes I really threw everything out of whack with my ED. It has caused all sorts of intolerances, sleep issues, energy, wound healing, concentration. All in the name of being the fastest and leanest. When I was preggo, I was pretty ill, and lived on white bagels, ham, and cheese, and I lived. Imagine that.
Hans
It's white rice today. Beans don't seem to cause TOO much of an issue but potatoes yes.
JT
I've read through the blog some and have seen your posts. Hope you get the time to give your thoughts as well! I am interested as you seem to have good apposing views.
JT: I think you need an update from The Stone re: relationship status :)
Weary: I have to say that having one cheat day really opened my eyes to the many times a day I say "Can't touch that!" to food. Maybe you need one too?
Happy Wednesday
deb
Deb
I dunno. The things that happen to me with a lot of foods at this point kinda scares me.
What do you "cheat" with?
cheat day means just what it sounds like, the field is wide open. It's just eat what you crave, for one day, do not keep anything in the house, get it eat what you want throw out the rest.
Others may have more insight, I did it once.
JT- how can I see your blog? do you have one?
Matt
Excellent post-probably one of the best you've written.
Aha! Now I understand why JT had to resort to name calling- by naively questioning the necessity of 'exercise' , his particular cure-all, I was threatening his orthodoxy. Today he calls unnamed people here groupies. Even if its not directed at me I find it insulting and unnecessisary (and probably sexist- notice the female qualification). Why can't he just state his opinions in a friendly and impersonal way?
JT Grow up! Leave name calling in the playground.
I used my personal version of HED/high carb to get over 'habitual under eating' and feel it has been successful for me.
I am reading all of this and thinking: Where is everyone's mother?????? oh- that's right, she's at work or bridge or something and dinner's in the microwave. I believe that if our collective mother had not listened to crummy commercials in the 50's, we wouldn't be here trying to figure this out. I, as a mother, am taking that power back. I say to Kraft, the food pyramid, and any other phobic guru, etc—GET OUTTA MY KITCHEN!!!! I spend several hours in my kitchen daily- just like great grandma. Now I am off to make homemade tortillas, beans, rice, guacamole, and homemade spiced oatmeal cookies for my children when they get home from school.
peace out.
Anon Mom: Exactamundo. When my mom went back to work it was bread, cereal, margarine, mac and cheese, Lawry's taco mix etc etc. We ate total crap, all the time. She was too tired to deal with food.
I cook every morning, prepare my kids lunch, then cook dinner about 6 nights a week, I night off for good behavior. :)
I wish more DADs were in the kitchen cooking too.
One day some lucky lady will marry Matt and have awesome food daily, amongst other perks :)
xo
deb
I guess my post didn't go through or was deleted bc it was too long. here is try 2-
Greensmu- same expiernce here. Whole food hypercaloric diet without digestive aids was a massive failure that worsened every symptom out there including digestion. If you have bacterial overgrowth and low stomach acid, shoveling in more food than you can digest will just feed the bacteria and make you sick. On the other side, over eating with digestive aids and a few supplements (vitamin d in wintertime anyone..), and other hacks led to very real improvements. I just got my latest thyroid back and my free t3 is up 66% (from bottom to top of range basically) from where it was 1 year ago fwiw.
I also think as mentioned above that you need to look at more than just diet. Digestion, hormones, lifestyle, exercise, disease history, sun exposure, toxin exposure, physical structure, genetics, epigenetics etc, etc. play a role. Thinking that everything can be solved with diet is another one of those fallacies I have long dumped. Don't get me wrong it's pretty important, but just one piece of the puzzle. What's needed to maintain health is one thing, what's needed to reassemble the pieces after you've lost it is another thing entirely. Alot of my idealism and fanactism has fallen by the wayside over the years. This is what I like about this blog because I can relate to your guys' own experiences of falling victim to ideology.
continued…
I don't agree with everything here of course, and I think over prescribing fukitol can be a little dangerous. I also dislike the turn towards over emphasizing psychology, while again very important, doesn't stand a chance against very real disease and disorders people suffering with come here for. Keep in mind the source of problems being psychological/physiological (those are somewhat arbitrary distinctions of course) varies based on the individual's circumstance. I think people make the mistake of thinking that their improvement in outlook led to an improvement in health when many times it was the improvement in health that led to the improvement in outlook/mental state. I have definitely caught myself thinking that my relaxed attitude has reduced my food sensitivities, only to lapse backward in ability to handle said foods. Then realizing that the whole reason I was relaxed towards those foods was because I no longer felt so bad eating them. Oops, whose the tail and whose the dog?
Not to go off topic… but the major problem with the mind is that it will impead you if it's caught up in negative thought patterns. The key is just removing the negative thought patterns and being open to positive outcomes; trying to heal yourself through forcing 'positive thinking' alone is a fools game. (btw book suggestion: "Timeless healing")
So yes stress causes negative health, but negative health will cause way more stress. It's the equivalent of a grown person playing teeter-toter with a small child.
My main objective since the beginning was to basically come up with the simplest, most whittled-down, most effective for the most number of people advice. I didn't, and don't, want to start diverging into "get this tested and that tested and take this supplement but not with this one but only if this is your problem and if this is happening and you have diabetes on your dad's side of the family but not your mom's."
I know that RRARF isn't everyone's miracle potion. It's not intended to be. But I feel like I've identified a functional state of hypothyroidism as the most basic and broad-sweeping important malady in the common world, and I've developed the most simple and straightforward dietary tips for how to make great progress in improving the condition.
Note, I did not say "cure" or "fix everything." Improvement is the idea, and a lot of the shortcomings people find with RRARF are not because it didn't help, it did. It's just that the expectations were unrealistic. What I hear the most is, "I got better, but I'm not 100% fixed."
The human race and its citizens are way beyond what could ever even be close to fully repaired in a single lifetime. And what is full repair anyway? Is there really some health utopia? No of course not, and we're the only species on earth and for the first time in history to have a population that is not culled to weed out the weakest links.
But here we are. This is the 21st century and it's frigging awesome. No famines in the country I was born in for the entire 33 years I've been here. We've already got it better than anyone else in history ever did. But there are health challenges that we all face. But at the end of the day we must take what progress we've made, keep our eyes and ears open to new ideas that may move our health another step forward, but all in all move on with our lives the best we can with what we've got.
While I may serve up a hell of a lot of brain candy to the world's 2nd biggest health geeks (I'm claiming the #1 spot), I will always risk oversimplifying the core message over risking over-complexifying it.
The fact that by just telling people to eat a lot (which they are all dying to do anyway) yields amazing results with improved blood glucose control, restoring menstruation and fertility, clears up most cases of constipation, helps many with sleep issues, sugar cravings, and about 400 other things is awesome.
RRARF is the shizzy nizzy and my confidence in it is much greater than it ever was when I crafted it. It is certainly better than every drug that has hit the market in the last decade, and is better than every low-fat, low-carb, vegetarian, or "x" diet out there for most health problems.
Just wanted to clear that up. Some seemed to be getting the idea that I was somehow faltering or backpeddling or whatever. Dream on.
Stonehenge:
I feel ya. I hear your message and that is why I am here groupieing or what ever anyone wants to call it.
Long time ago, I realized that 'cure' needed to leave my vocabulary. I have come to appreciate feeling healthier and more free to eat what ever comes down the pike that sounds good and is a mostly whole food/like it came out of the ground/it's mother stuff!
So deepest bows of gratitude and to all the picky naysayers I give you the Highest order of rasberry and ask that you free your mind/dogma/food prison up a bit. It's fun and pretty damn liberating if I do say so my own self.
The Post menopausal, cancer ridden, slightly chubby Hag xo
Weary,
If I was you I would drop the idea of good and bad foods. No foods are really good or bad for everyone, but you may be able to tolerate and digest some foods better than others. Sounds like you have been starving yourself for a long time, but stress hormones may still be high because your body is trying to keep you alive and blood sugar stable. When the stress hormones are high then there will usually be a low appetite, like low carbers experience. So for someone who is starving, the healthiest food would be whatever they could get the most calories out of.
What is your height & weight?
You might want to try to make Kitcharee which is a mix of white rice, ghee, and split mung dal. It is the most nutritious and easily digested food in Ayurveda and many people with digestive problems will go on a diet of this until their digestion improves. I like the recipe at ayurveda.com.
Seems like the most important thing for you is just getting your calories up so that your body can get out of starvation mode. Im not a doctor, so you should probably consult with a professional on this.
No, I don't have my own blog, I just mess around on Matt's.
Hans,
You had mentioned before that you are following Sarswati's Kriya yoga, and that you have digestive problems. He had mentioned in several of hi books that digestion can get worse as you practice. He also recommends the Kitcharee diet like I mentioned above.
Wheezy,
I changed my diet pretty abruptly. I kept my protein to carb ratio at 1 to 1 in the beginning, and this prevented any blood sugar swings. I do regular bodybuilding type of workouts and MET workouts that Matt wrote about a few weeks ago.
Deb,
What do you mean? Are you saying that you and Matt are in a relationship now!! Matt is a lucky guy!
Sydney,
I am not really sure I understand all of what you wrote. The comment about the groupies was my attempt at humor concerning the "group think" that John mentioned. Obviously something I wrote offended you. i apologize if I hurt your feelings in some way, that was not my intention.
JT: You are a very funny guy! I will have to let my husband know about me and Matt wink wink nudge nudge.. I just am saying that the status may have changed on his FB page. Nothing to do with me. :) Did make me laugh though so thanks. I am old enough to be his mom also and I suspect he would prefer a younger model.
I agree with your advice to Weary.. sometimes good and bad can just be words with no real meaning. Might be worth a try to just Eat The Food, Matt's mantra.
I do have a blog, two actually, but my most current one is http://www.http.grassfedmomma.blogspot.com. I will be posting a recipe for bone broth that I stole from Gordon Ramsey's book soon. Also working on one about raising chickens in your yard.
Deborama
HAGis
(has that one been used yet?),
While I let my beans simmer, I thought I'd say that you look pretty dang good for being a hag- you should celebrate that.
@ Matt- I found your blog after Thanksgiving and I imperfectly RRARF'd through the holidays and I feel a total improvement. This is after an IF phase- which really didn't support me all that well. Now, I feel much warmer and I have cut my pain meds in half. Not bad- I do, however look very bombshell right now ( a little uncomfortable) but I decided to go for it and wear a lot of animal print- what the hay!!!!!
Anon MOM
Anon Mom thanks for the new handle I love it!
Haggis it is!
Glad to hear you are feeling better doing after doing RRARF. Getting warmer happened to me too, I used to get white fingertips when the temps went below 60 degrees. It hurts. My toes got frozen too. No longer an issue and that went on for many years.
Later
Haggis
YES! Matt, I am so glad you not only saw my comment and called it legendary, but that you have been hearing stories of these quacks from other people too. What to do about it? Who knows, but at least I now know you have this viewpoint of doubt as a factor in that amazing octopus-like mind of yours.
Feel free to use it in an upcoming post or something.
Regarding intuitive eating, I certainly follow this in that I don't avoid sugar. Fructose is certainly a unique carbohydrate, but I'll trust my senses on it. Anyone's welcome to try cutting it out for a time, but for me, there was no "rebalancing of enzymes". I do, however, avoid things which probably contain toxins, including the PUFAs, which can't be detected by taste.
When something has the ability to bypass our natural senses is where I draw the line for intuitive eating. But, regarding sugar, it may also necessary to imagine, "Well, would I rather have a nice dinner of meatloaf, gravy, and mashed potatoes?", as perhaps a child wouldn't. Again, traditional wisdom that used to be common will suffice, such as "Don't eat cookies before dinner it will spoil your appetite." And another reason we go for the quick sugary stuff is because most women are too busy working in this modern society to have prepared a nice dinner for their family.
You also brought up the theory from "Gut and Psychology Syndrome" as a possible flaw in intuitive eating. It's a very plausible theory, but I've personally decided that this is probably not a factor unless a person's digestive process is obviously compromised, which mine isn't. I've never even had heartburn. For most people, I think this is another thing to be paranoid about that in actuality probably isn't a factor. But, as with everything, experiment away.
This has probably been covered before – but with all this talk of intuitive eating, I have to ask. I've noticed over the last 6 months or so that I have terrible, yucky, very bad, no-good bloating when I eat wheat products. It maybe has something to do with my stupid foray into VLC-land, but no matter what caused it, that's where I am. It makes my "visceral fat" even more prominent, making me very unhappy. I've also noticed that my Mom seems to have this kind of bloat pretty much all the time, for as long as I can remember.
So what does everyone think about overcoming this? I know one commenter (maybe Steve and Paula?) say that they cannot eat wheat at all without very unhappy symptoms. And I know that Matt feels like food sensitivities should not be catered to as much as possible. But what's the best way to kick the sensitivity in the butt? Stuff my face with wheat bread for 3 days, or stay off it for a while and gradually re-introduce? I hate being the douche that won't eat spaghetti at family functions, but then again I hate being a fat, depressed lump for 3 days afterward too.
I'm obviously not the adrenal type yet, but my axillary bbt is consistently in the 98.0-99.0 F range. Anyone got ideas?
Matt, I have to thank you for helping me see that lots of different dietary approaches work for each individual person, and that certain unrefined carbs are just fine to eat.
However I completely disagree with you regarding not restricting yourself. I mean sure, having some sugar etc once every few months is not going to do much, but eating it regularly for most people is probably going to cause some sort of damage somewhere. Should we have some meth or cocaine in moderation too now and then? ;)
I think it boils down to willpower. To say thinks like restricting yourself from refined carbohydrates (as an example) is only going to make you worse in the long run is ridiculous.
I definitely think some foods should simply never be eaten except for perhaps on very very special occasions as a treat. Those foods will be different for each person. However I do feel that the majority of refined carbohydrates would not agree with most people in the long run.
And yes we don't really need to complicate things too much. It's actually pretty simple. Eat whole natural foods which go directly from the earth to your plate with no bullshit in between (aside from what's absolutely necessary). Once you follow that it's simply a matter of finding the foods which agree with you best.
I guess each to his own though, but if optimal health is one's health I think you need some willpower, and its not hard at all once you're eating real foods. some how the junk starts becoming less and less appealing. ;)
-oliver
I have to agree with Oliver. I don't *feel* like I'm restricting myself by not eating all that garbage in the store, even though I once upon a time ate nothing but… and would have killed for a piece of chocolate cake, or more like the whole cake. I can look at the donuts and cookies and bagels and not care. Even the ice cream holds no interest (which I used to eat almost a half gallon a night of – there's hope Danyelle or whomever it was that loves their ice cream!). Of course, I don't live anywhere near family… when I did, that was a minefield, not because I wanted to eat what they ate, but because I had to eat what they ate or make everybody uncomfortable.
Danyelle, I'm back to hating wheat again too. I think that wheat, as most of the west eats it, is crap. I've been grinding my own for use in cornbread and other things, and that seems to be ok on occasion, but beyond that… the belly does seem bloated with it. And flour, whether sprouted or organic or whatnot has often deteriorated by the time you use it. Even organic flour can be brominated, which suppresses your thyroid. And then there's the whole debate about how hybridized our modern wheat is. The problem is, it's such a part of our society. It gets redundant eating nothing but rice and potatoes of various kinds.
Deb and Anon Mom, can't agree more about being in the kitchen. What scares me is the fact that you're considered orthorexic if you spend more than 3 hours a day on food – not just preparation, but planning too. Well, crap, even when we ate out of boxes, we came close to that. I'm going to piss people off by saying this, but calling us orthorexic is just a way to make people (moms) who don't have the "time" or "energy" to make real food feel like we're the ones screwing up our kids instead of them. *I* have a serious eating disorder because I don't rely on fast food and mac and cheese (which is the only possible way to keep kitchen time under 3 hours)!
JT
Where are you?
I know you dealt with adrenal stuff. How did you manage the late night hypoglycemia? It's killing me.
Getting weary – when I first started eating cooked starch, I was on a terrible roller coaster. I would try to keep some leftover potato or sweet potato or something around to eat at night. I would even eat plain rice if I had to (I don't really like rice). That would be my snack. I don't suffer from the intense hunger or hypoglycemia anymore but, even now, I still like a starchy snack. In fact, I just ate a leftover bowl of oatmeal. Better to give in to the craving, as long as you satisfy it with "real" food.
On intuitive eating:
Intuitive eating is NOT about satisfying every single craving or eating every food that crosses your mind. People who do intuitive eating don't sit around all day binging on Oreos and Doritos while chugging a bottle of Coke.
If you have serious health issues, then obviously your food choices are going to be limited in some capacity, but you can still listen to your body when it comes choosing what you eat.
It's really easy to hear the term "intuitive eating" and immediately translate that as "eat all the junk food you want."
But in reality it's way more like: "DO NOT DIET. Eat when you're hungry (before you get ravenous). Stop eating when you sense any more food would make you uncomfortably full. As much as possible, make a conscious decision to eat food you'll enjoy. Don't obsess over getting it all right, don't obsess about eating a perfect diet."
Anyone who thinks intuitive eating can't work has fallen prey to the belief that you can't trust your body, and that some expert out there can tell you when you're hungry, when you're full, how much you should eat, and what foods you should eat to feel healthy.
I don't think intuitive eating is the end-all-be-all. I don't believe in end-all-be-alls. But I do believe most people can benefit from exploring what intuitive eating has to offer rather than obsessing over their food choices.
How you apply it will obviously be highly individual, though.
Lorelei,
Yes, you bring up a good point – it's a little different story when you are the primary food prep for a large family. Or even a small family that never seems to STOP EATING. I have 3 boys, growing like weeds, and keeping them and myself and my husband in (real, whole) food can easily take 3 hours out of my day. In many ways, low-carb was easier because we ate so much less. Of course now I know it was less volume because we were starving – oops. I think of the men that mention the large volume of potatoes they eat, and start to feel overwhelmed. That's a lot of peeling, boiling and chopping. I'm not even talking about fermenting and soaking and stuff – which I do a little of (kombucha, soaking beans, soaking brown rice) but not every day.
I try not to judge the moms that don't have time to fix real food, but it's tough, esp. when their families come up with the inevitable health issues. We went to the Wednesday night dinner at our church last night. I took a large dose of fukitol and got myself a plate, and ate the whole thing. It was pretty gross. Boxed frozen lasagna, boxed frozen garlic bread, salad (actually kind of nice, except for the PUFA dressing all over it) and cake from a box and icing from a can. And this is supposed to be a home-cooked meal! For those that eat "fast food" the rest of the week. Yikes.
Anyway, yes, "orthorexia" is a nice convenient name for lazy/busy other moms to label us. It doesn't bother me now, though, because I'm a recovering orthorexic. Sticks and stones, man, sticks and stones…
Gotta go peel potatoes now.
Weary,
I'm in the US. I didn't have night time hypoglycemia because that was when my cortisol levels were the highest. My hypo symptoms would appear early in the day after I ate fruit, but I could eat the same thing at night with no problem. My grandma gets it at night so she has a meal with protien fat and carbs at night that digest slowly and keeps her blood sugar stable during the night.
"your balding head…"
Hey, man :( Have you found the cure?
Lorelei, Haggis, etc:
While I roast some potatoes and onions, I thought I'd say a bit about all this. I have been on the orthorexic side of this issue (just watch enough David Wolfe on youtube and you'll be afraid to drink water for cryin' out loud). The bottom line is that SOMEONE around here has to think about food- whether a mom does it herself or leaves it to Little Caesar's. Not going to judge that part of it. For my family, I have decided to be the one to think about the food for my family (most of the time) so that they really don't have to. They come home, they eat awesome food, and they get on with their life. It becomes an imbalance when I am not at peace about it. When I begin to second guess my intution- when I worry that I don't look like Tosca Reno. That is why I am learning to become at peace with myself. As far as the junk (especially the crap that triggers me), I just don't keep it in my house. I become happier and healthier. The "noise" goes away- cause frankly, the man made junk food is full of noise.
Well, my potatoes are ready….
ANON MOM
hmm not sure if this one is going to post twice…sorry if it does
I totally agree not to judge the working moms – I can't imagine working full time, commuting for hours, and still making 3 real meals a day. But don't label *ME* as the one with a "serious" mental problem!
Danyelle, the only way to do it is to have a 20 qt stock pot and NOT peel the potatoes! And make those boys help. I have 3 kids too, and we go thru mountains of food. I can't even keep leftovers around. Heavens, when the inlaws came over xmas (oh yay, the happy days), they kept commenting negatively about how much my kids, who look like sticks, ate. While they consumed nothing but their liquid meals and didn't look so good.
For those who are tired of starving themselves and being scared of cows, I posted a killer beef stock recipe on my blog.
http://grassfedmomma.blogspot.com/2011/01/tasty-beef-stock-recipe-that-i-stole.html
I hope it helps you Eat The Food like the Stone man says.
:)
deb
Onoes, orthorexia strikes again!
http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/challenge-accepted-grass-fed-beef-pastured-eggs-and-coconut-oil-only-diet-through-april-1/9771
Oh man Gazelle. Heartbreaker for sure. Glad I'm not a low-carb martyr.
As usual, I'm coming late to the game here (Alaska behind the curve of the sun) and there's way too much to catch up on.
But I wanted to applaud this paragraph and say 'amen brah!'
"If you believe something strongly, don’t go out and find more like thinkers. That only makes it worse! Challenge those beliefs and find exceptions and find opposing viewpoints until you are confused. This is not just a rule for eating, but for life and strong thinking in general. In fact, the history of my life shows me that when I have ‘strong beliefs? about anything, I do so because I’m failing to see the big picture. "
I love how you articulated this. And serendipitously, I wrote a guest post this week for a blog whose audience is primarily raw and vegan (as am I) about overcoming restrictive eating. I gave a checklist of 'symptoms' that stress over diet was potentially more detrimental than eating 'wrong' (which included physical things like 'always hungry' and emotional ones like 'can't comfortably eat with followers of a different diet-style) and made the same recommendation: that you should go read the research on the 'opposite' of whatever dogma you're falling into.
And guess what? I had a commenter accuse me of demonizing healthy eating and potlucking with likeminded people. This is inevitable, right?
One more–I'll take up another comment so as not to make this one too long.
It's interesting indeed to read the debate about RRARF. Part of why I'm so eager to encourage others not to go down the restrictive road is because I fear that I have passed some 'no return' point in my own metabolic and emotional damage. Aside from the super-slow metabolism thing, I periodically have an episode, like this week, in which freaking out over self-perception as being fatter coincides impeccably with a week of diarrhea and restricting.
And Matt, when you say this:
"But ultimately people cannot psychologically put sugar in a demonic category and succeed at avoiding it. I tried that for 10 years and just kept ritualistically bingeing and feeling guilty, bingeing and feeling guilty. " –I have to tell you that you're wrong, for anorexic minds anyway. It's no trouble at all to put something in the 'demonic' category and avoid it forever after (or until you 'undemonize' it somehow). Speaking of undemonizing, I feel a bit stupid right now that having 'Peated out,' I'm contemplating 'undemonizing' potatoes, which I don't even like and haven't eaten for about 8 years.
Meanwhile, my ND (who says it'll probably take 15 years for my metabolism to normalize) is pleased that I've been eating 'some' starch but _doesn't_ want me to cut out the nuts and avocado (he doesn't know Peat).
It leaves me wondering whether RRARF is simply too much to ask for those of us with 'broken ' metabolisms:' do we just need to take it really slow? Last summer, eating baked sweet potato or beets made me really sick: now, I'm able to enjoy them. Small steps, with the occasional self-sabotage. Or am I asking too little?
Ela:
I know Matt will answer you but I have to share as a former raw vegan with a giant list of demonized foods. YES, you do have to take baby steps. I too had trouble with eating fats like raw milk and cheese, now after nearly two years, I finally feel like I am ok with it and don't feel totally bloated and weird when I eat them. Same with the sweet potatoes, I went full bore into them with butter all over them, saw my belly grow.. now I can eat them and not really have much trouble.
Take your time.
I do think you can heal.
Have you read Vegetarian Myth by Lierre Keith? It really will give you hope.
And I would like the link to your guest post please!
I too have been attacked by hard core vegans, most of my formerly raw friends have been. Seems being mostly or all vegan makes you a bit of a rage a holic when your dogma is threatened.
xo
deb
Deb–thank you so much for sharing your hopeful experience. I enjoy your humor in your postings here and have seen your comments on Heather P's blog too: seems like you have a pretty amazing and inspiring story.
My situation is a little odd, in that although I'm by no means an ethical vegan, nor ever have been (and being married to a hunter/fisher and living in AK, it would be pretty hard to be!) but I've been veg all my life and really am not inclined to change. (I did allow myself to be bamboozled into trying the 'Primal Diet' for a bit while living in HI, and if anything, the net result was to put me off animal products, except for eggs, even further!) That said, I'm a former fat-phobe who's now the coconut fiend: coconut oil is a real important staple for me. I absolutely loathe butter, the smell, the taste… thank goodness for coconuts. That said, Lierre Keith's book is on my list: thanks for recommending.
But starch is really the last thing, and I do feel like it's progress to be starting to enjoy sweet potatoes.
Thanks for asking for the blog link. It's http://www.bittofraw.com/2011/01/guest-post-ela-on-overcoming.html — I don't think it'll contain anything earth-shattering for most folks here. But while I'm at it, I might as well include a follow-up to it that I posted on my personal blog, with a big plug for Matt Stone himself and this blog, and talk about transforming regret for earlier mismanagement: http://ulteriorharmony.blogspot.com/2011/01/transforming-bad-and-ugly-transforming.html
cheers,
Ela
Interesting post Ela! I do know Aimee, long story, the raw world is actually quite a small community you know!
I will follow you on your blog!
xo
deb
Thanks, Deb!
I've been out of the raw world loop since living in AK, but used to be totally in the thick of it, and yes, it's such a small world, even outside the US.
Hope this side-conversation isn't annoying to anyone. And I'll mosey over and find your blog asap too.
cheers,
Ela
@ JT
> You had mentioned before that you are following Sarswati's Kriya yoga, and that you have digestive problems. He had mentioned in several of hi books that digestion can get worse as you practice.
oh, wow, I didn't realize that. I'm following his systematic course book, just lesson two so far, been practicing for only two months. It's not like my digestion got worse. It has always been bad, as far back as I think, I have always felt bloated and it made me uncomfortable. My key experience was fasting and taking laxatives for a colonoscopy, that got me into fasting and alternative diets, a lot of trouble but in the end I'm glad I am where I am.
Skipping through the book I saw that he addresses digestive health later in the book. I didn't want to start reading into later practices though as not to make me go crazy and lose focus, though.
> He also recommends the Kitcharee diet like I mentioned above.
Funny, my diet is actually kind of close to that. I'll try the mono diet after my vacation and see how it goes. Can't imagine going practically vegan though. Meals without a bit of animal protein doesn't sustain my energy well (blood sugar or whatever.) My type is vata with some pitta, btw (self-diagnosed)
Hans,
Kitcharee isn't completely vegan because ghee is used. The ghee will slow down absorption, so it will help in keeping blood sugar stable. Check out the recipe from ayurveda.com it is a good one that I have used quite a bit. It is also good for all of the doshas so you shouldnt have to worry about that.
The reason he recommends this vegetarian diet is purely for practical reasons, not religious or ideological. He has just found that it works the best for people practicing this yoga due to digestive issues.
Matt,
So, are you saying that my medically verified gluten intolerance is reversible and is a function of hormones, rather than diet? I wish I could eat gluten and not feel like I am risking cancer and early death. Do you think pollen, dander and food allergies that started in early childhood are resolvable with fixing adrenal function?
And, are you saying my pre-diabetic husband can keep drinking Coke and eating at a restaurant named for a certain pepper (where everything is cooked in soy oil) a few times a week and still lose the doctor-ordered 20 lbs by adding interval training and stopping the 4 mile runs? My advice to him was to get the sugar and processed food out of his diet as much as possible while adding oxygen deficit workouts to see what happens, before trying the doctor-prescribed severe calorie restriction diet. Maybe he doesn't need to stop drinking the pop after all?
I started following you a few months ago because I was intrigued by the RARF concept, but I feel more and more confused about what you are trying to say. Now I can't get my husband to read it anymore, either, because he says he can't find/follow the message.
I eat what makes me feel best most of the time, but I only rigidly avoid gluten because I have been told it triggers the autoimmune response and harms my body. I have gradually felt better over the last few years, and the longer I abstain from gluten. Cane sugar, dairy and soy make me feel awful if I have very much, so I minimize. I don't restrict fat – I eat tons of coconut and olive oil and avocados. I'm scared to give up running – evidence of serious brainwashing, or serious addiction, I guess :). I also do interval workouts and weightlifting, but is there a cardio benefit without the distance running? It's all a bit confusing. Can you please provide a little clarity here?
Thanks so much.
CnslrGrl…
if your hubby hits it hard enough he could still eat a fair amount of junk food and lose the weight provided he is not forcing a body fat set point.
I would make the coke/sugar and white flour a once a once a week thing for best results. Losing more than ten percent of his body weight and keeping it off will take more than hitting the gym.
Eating a balanced diet makes you healthy and keeps you away from dreadful diseases in the future. You are what you eat. It is totally true, your sickness defines what your lifestyle is. So you are never too young to start a healthy living. Eat a balance diet, regular exercise and having enough rest or relaxation provides a healthy individual.
Matt: "We just don't know and no one can be trusted. What people say works is meaningless. What they use as evidence of their beliefs is meaningless."
I say "question everything, even skepticism." There is no evidence that some macro-nutrient ratio or list of foods is the best or only healthy way of eating. Forget it.
Oshioke: "We spend so much time on these blogs that we end up stressing ourselves out, creating more rules and losing touch with ourselves. It's funny how most of the ppl I know with great health know 5% of what I know nutrition wise."
Unlearn. Take what you know, write it on a piece of toilet paper, and you know what with it.
Matt: "If we don't each take our own health into our own hands, we risk getting medicated, sliced and diced, and led down the path of dietary destruction – or having our auras looked at and muscles tested by delusional douchebags like Mark Starr."
That is what happened to me. I was feeling great on the HED, then had some kind of religious experience, and ended up in a mental hospital. Even though I felt great, when the doctors handed me a bunch of pills I took them, thinking I was strong and the drugs would have no effect or thinking I'd be held against my will longer if I refused. I should have fought against them tooth and nail. As soon as I took the drugs, lithium and zyprexa, I became very paranoid and delusional – thinking the nurses were devils who wanted to tear me to pieces, feeling like I was in the Matrix, with Matt and various others manipulating things from outside in the Real World. I became suicidally depressed on the meds. My mood, my appetite and my health went to hell. I felt like I was in hell. My comments (as Bruce or Ian) from June 2009 on were for the most part a result of the drug toxicity or withdrawal from trying to get off the drugs. (Like saying Matt was Jesus, wishing that I had never been born.) All of the drugs are toxic and addictive, IMO, esp psychiatric drugs.
Finally, in Spring 2010, I was fed up with the drugs and vowed to use them again. I quit cold turkey 4-5 months, then took Geodon at a half dose briefly the end of September. I became extremely delusional and paranoid again, also was send into the ER from having convulsions and involuntary exercise I felt like I was running on a treadmill and not able to stop until I was exhausted and collapsed. I've since learned that geodon causes diabetes and/or metabolic syndrome just like most mind drugs. Neuroleptics also are known to cause tardive dyskinesia, progressive loss of muscle control due to neurological damage.
My body was trying to tell me this with muscle cramps and involuntary violent exercise. I have not taken the mind drugs since then and will never take them again. Depression improved the longer I went without psychiatric drugs drugs and I have not been depressed since September.
Wow Ian.
Are you Ian2 too?
I hope you are better now, sound like Mr. Toad's wild ride you went on there.
deb
No, I'm not Ian2. He probably used that name to indicate that.
Carl M: "But what I do know is that orangutans become amazingly fat eating sugar because fruit is not available year around."
Humans aren't orangutans and there are loads of emaciated fruitarians and raw vegans who refute the idea that fruit sugar causes obesity in humans. Maybe those orangutans get fat because they don't eat it year round. Maybe they eat other things that make them store fat and fruit alone isn't to blame. Even refined sugar doesn't cause obesity in and of itself. People are not taking a bag of sugar and pouring it into a bowl and eating it with a spoon.
I am puzzled by this study of rats which said a low-fat, high-sucrose diet made them leaner than complex carbs. They also said that fat was crucial stimulus for hyperglycemia and hyper-insulinemia in one group of rats. In the absence of fat the sugar had no effect on blood sugar or insulin. This suggests an error in low-carb anti-fructose dogma.
"In the absence of fat, sucrose produced a decrease in FE [feed efficiency] in both strains. Animals fed a low-fat, high-sucrose (LH) diet were actually leaner than animals fed a high-complex-carbohydrate diet. Fat was also found to be the critical stimulus for hyper-glycemia and hyper-insulinemia in B/6J mice. In the absence of fat, sucrose had no effect on plasma glucose or insulin."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7752914