In the last post we talked about the stress response, and how it seems like the modern human body’s reaction to various stressors is overactive. This overactivation, many believe, is linked to the increasing presence of Arachidonic Acid in our bodies. Arachidonic acid is the precursor to what are known as Series 2 Prostaglandins, a class of predominantly pro-inflammatory (although not all) eicosanoids with undeniably close ties to dozens of inflammatory diseases that have risen with breathtaking rapidity over the course of the last century.
But I think few understand just how much of an inflammatory tidal wave we’ve been hit with, and how it’s increasing at exponential speed. Incidence of asthma for example, has increased like 70-something percent in the last 15 years. Anyone who has kids these days knows that food allergies are the norm, not the exception. Kids aren’t even allowed to bring food to share (like cupcakes) to school anymore due to the liability of it containing allergens that another child might react to. Hypersensitive is really the best word to describe the newest generation.
Although the war cannot be solely won on the Arachidonic acid front, I don’t think there’s any question whatsoever that it is, at very least, highly involved in the inflammation phenomenon. The higher the production of Arachidonic-Acid derived inflammatory molecules, generally the greater the incidence and severity of inflammation-related diseases. (I also believe that when the body temperature is sub-normal, which is?extremely common as you can read about in my metabolism series,’the enzymes and molecules involved in immunity do not work properly, and may, in part, give rise to a state of?overcompensation and hypervigilance on behalf of the immune system – leading to allergy and autoimmunity).
When the body confronts some kind of stressor, like an allergen, an infection, injury, the systemic pounding of running a moron-a-thon let’s say, and potentially various forms of psychological stresses as well, the immune system becomes activated and the manufacture and release of Arachidonic Acid-derived molecules gets switched on. The formula appears to be pretty simple. For example, describing Arachidonic Acid-derived leukotrienes, Floyd ?Ski? Chilton, author of Inflammation Nation writes:
?The amount of leukotrienes present at the scene of the white blood cells? attack influences the scale of that attack.
Chilton goes on to describe how the composition of the diet goes on to directly determine this?
??research has proven that a high AA diet has the potential actually to change normal immune responses to abnormal, exaggerated ones. A study carried out in 1997 by Dr. Darshan S. Kelley and colleagues at the Western Human Nutrition Research Center in California showed that people on high-AA diets generated four times as many inflammatory cells after a flu vaccination as people on low-AA diets.
Joe Blair, who I generally speak of highly, has also crafted a theory that Arachidonic Acid excess is really the key in the development of most diseases. We can all be subjected to stressors, but only those with excesses of Arachidonic Acid in their tissues will trigger a reaction strong enough to manifest as one of dozens of inflammatory diseases. Having low levels of arachidonic acid, which Joe Blair has worked hard to achieve in the conquering of his own health problems, evidently can lead to an excess production of quotation marks?
?The key point in all of this is that arachidonic acid is very unstable and toxic, and is released from cells upon the most minor of stressors. Then it can stress the “germs,” which cause “disease” by the “clinging” action, provoking the “inflammatory” process, which is too potent and sustained in people with arachidonic acid in their cells, and then the damage that is called one “disease” or another eventually appears.
Quite simply? Minor stressors cause big, destructive, disease-causing explosions. Is this not exactly what we were getting at in the last post as we examined stress vs. the RESPONSE to stress?
The big question is, what caused the excesses of Arachidonic Acid in our tissues and what can be done to reverse it?
In the last post I mentioned my growing doubt over the belief that by keeping polyunsaturated fat intake exceedingly low, this overzealous stress response could be lowered to a healthy level. Heck, I’ve eaten a very low omega 6 diet for an entire year now, with, if anything, an increasing inflammatory response.
So the timing was good when I came across Ski Chilton and his 2007 book, Inflammation Nation: The First Clinically Proven Eating Plan to End Our Nation’s Secret Epidemic on the shelf of my local library. Of course, when I see the phrase ?clinically proven? I automatically assume someone is peddling something that will yield a seemingly-miraculous health improvement followed by the growth of a 3rd nipple, bloody diarrhea, and an unexpected stroke. But I was willing to give Doc Chilton the benefit of the doubt, as I always strive to do.
Chilton had some insights that would rock the sphincters of the likes of Barry Sears, Ray Peat, and Joe Blair ? who seem to be convinced that the consumption of seed oils is the primary culprit in our increasingly-inflammatory reaction. Chilton has a new twist on this. I’m not saying this is the be-all, end-all, or that there aren’t other important reasons to avoid vegetable oils (free radical damage), but it does re-awaken the omega 6 conversation. Note, linoleic acid, or LA as referred to in the quote, is what I typically am referring to when I say ?omega 6? or ?666? if you will?
?Does this mean that if you want to stop making so much AA, you should stop eating LA? Actually, it doesn’t. A number of recent studies indicate that we convert very little LA into AA. Our bodies aren’t good at the first conversion of LA to GLA. Consequently, eating even a lot of LA (as almost all of us do every day) won’t really have a major influence on AA, or on the number of inflammatory messengers you produce.
We didn’t always know this ? for a very simple reason. Not all species so limit this conversion. Rodents, including mice, are actually very good at it, which means that they convert a great deal of the LA they eat into AA. So what? Many of the studies examining how the body processes different fatty acids were carried out in mice, which means that some of the conclusions scientists drew about the connection between dietary LA and elevated levels of AA in humans were incorrect.
According to Chilton, the problem with AA-overload has a heck of a lot more to do with modern farm animals being fed lots of Linoleic acid in their feed (excluding ruminant animals) than it does humans actually consuming Linoleic acid directly (although that is certainly a contributor, and he has no love for corn and soy oil I assure you).
Also, like Barry Sears, he focuses on insulin being a trigger for the Delta 5 Desaturase enzyme, which triggers greater production of AA out of the LA in our diet and tissues. Of course, this water becomes increasingly murky (insulin resistance is most likely the cause of?chronic excessive insulin production,?and postprandial spikes?are meaningless), as he goes on to recommend a rather high-protein diet just like Sears under the belief that carbohydrates raise insulin more than protein, which is typically not true unless you are talking about refined carbohydrates. Still, he’s all about complete avoidance of refined carbohydrates while eating a diet centered more around unrefined starches, fruit, and vegetables along with fatty fish and shellfish, beef, and dairy products (which are closer to being inflammation neutral). This is not too far off from my what I would consider to be good, general advice.
To this he has a fatty acid supplement protocol that is designed to decrease AA production based on some studies that he co-authored and found to be effective, such as the poetically-named?
In short, he recommends a high daily level of GLA (borage or evening primrose oil) split into 2 doses of roughly 250mg each, with the use of 1 normal 180mg fish oil capsule (which you can avoid if you eat fatty fish several times per week according to Chilton) taken twice daily along with the borage/primrose. This is very similar to Barry Sears’s pioneering work except that Chilton has focused entirely on the suppression of AA production, which ended up requiring much more GLA than Sears ever recommended along with far LESS fish oil ? a recommendation I’m more at ease with.
The AA and inflammation debate is far from over, but is just heating up. I thought it necessary to share another point of view with you.Brian Peskin, another researcher who seems to have entered his own new paradigm on fatty acids due to his own independent research, feels like the war against AA is a huge misunderstanding ? as AA produces some amazing anti-inflammatory, anti-cancer molecules like prostacyclin. I’ll be giving more thought to Chilton’s program (and reading his latest book), as well as reviewing Peskin’s work in the year ahead. The lengths I go to in order to keep myself out of trouble!
Food for thought?
This new persepective could potentially reconcile some of the following things?
1) Nuts, seeds, avocado, sesame oil, olive oil, etc. ? high in linoleic acid, are referred to as ?healthy fats? by mainstream nutrition authorities, as these foods continue to perform well in reducing the rates of many health problems when subjected to study.
2) Seed oils, in large-scale studies don’t typically produce greater incidence of heart disease, obesity, asthma, etc.
3) Pork fat, perhaps the worst AA offender, is what is used in clinical trials and labeled ‘saturated fat. This drives smart people like Chris Masterjohn up the friggin? wall (UTFW), as pork fat is mostly UNsaturated fat. However, pork fat typically yields a lot poorer results than either unsaturated fats including even vegetable oils, or more saturated fats like beef, coconut, or dairy fats. Perhaps most of the negative findings on saturated fat over the years have been due to Arachidonic acid in pork fat, and has nothing to do with the saturation or lack thereof of the fats involved in the studies. Or it could just be part of the pro-seed oil propaganda of the agriculture and food industry lobbying machine.
4) The unhealthiest part of the United States is, and has been for decades, the American South ? with typically higher rates of asthma, obesity, type 2 diabetes, obesity, and heart disease. A lot more pork is eaten in the American South than anywhere else in the country. African Americans in the area, who have tremendously poor health compared to national and global averages, also have ‘soul foods? such as pork chitterlings which happened to be the top ranking food item on Chilton’s Inflammatory Index. Variety meats, ribs, barbecue pork, and fried chicken are also known staples to the point of being used as a common stereotype of Southern African American cuisine. These foods, along with just a few others, are the ones assigned the highest inflammatory index ranking of 100 or above on Chilton’s list.
5) Perhaps this is why many report health improvements on vegan diets ? particularly low-fat vegan diets, and during fasts, which limit all forms of dietary arachidonic acid (it’s the nutritionally-incomplete diet itself that most likely causes health problems when continued long-term). Sadly, these initial and sometimes dramatic health improvements are very seductive, and because of the moralist fervor and health propaganda’that surrounds vegetarianism, many stay on this diet long after its therapeutic benefits have fizzled and morphed into a major health liability.
Is an inflammatory response necessarily a bad thing? I mean, does it necessarily mean A) we are metabolically f'ed or B) that we will become metabolically f'ed? I feel like many of us here think it's a death sentence, either a sign of our diseased state or another nail in the coffin of our metabolism.
This post made me start wondering about this because of the example of my metabolically-blessed friend. He is 40 years old, with no health problems, naturally 9% body fat, looks at least 10 years younger (sometimes still gets carded). He doesn't exercise regularly and can eat whatever he wants, though he doesn't have a huge appetite.
But sometimes, when under stress, his body undergoes the classic inflammatory response of an eczema-like dermatitis rash on his face. This can go on for days, and he often resorts to steroidal cream to resolve it. But then it's gone and he's just fine. It could be that he shouldn't be eating so much gluten and sugar and when his body is overloaded with stress, it can't take the overall level of toxins. But the reaction doesn't last long and then his body goes back to normal.
This just makes me wonder, could the problem not be the inflammation itself but the fact that our bodies are so weak that they can't recover from it, and then the inflammation becomes chronic? Maybe this is obvious, but it seems like the kind of distinction that's important to those of us around here.
Chicken or egg. Do we "fix" ourselves by avoiding the exacerbating elements or by finding a way to recover completely from the exacerbation?
I think I know what Matt would say…
Matt, this was a great post. Maybe now I can give up my last orthorexic tendency of PUFA avoidance!
I'm comin more to the belief that there are more health consequences to avoiding foods. Of course we all have different foods that we avoid because we have deemed them unclean, but the consequences are similar.
Gazelle-
The inflammatory response is extremely important and something we depend on for survival.
Chilton describes it using a great metaphor….
What our bodies are doing today is the equivalent of printing 100 copies of something we only need 1 copy of.
It's not that inflammation is bad, but the inflammation does do collateral damage. You don't want it overdoing it.
It's more like our immune systems are overachievers.
Or a metaphor I use…
A hypervigilant immune system takes a single threat and instead of hiring a sniper to do the job, decides to fix the problem with a nuclear bomb.
It's the excess damage done in response to threats that is at the core of these diseases.
JT-
I agree again. What health nerds don't take into account is the psychological turmoil caused in today's day and age by avoiding foods that you want to eat. While this could never be quantified, I do suspect it's a much bigger problem than anyone gives it credit for.
matt.
to quote you " when I see the phrase ?clinically proven? I automatically assume someone is peddling something that will yield a seemingly-miraculous health improvement followed by the growth of a 3rd nipple, bloody diarrhea, and an unexpected stroke "*********
LMAO i always think the same thing when i hear that.
WHAT'S THIS ??? Yet another reason to dodge pork who hoo …. ! starting to seem like I got one right lol
phycological turmoil …I agree I look at it like it' s motor oil or crushed glass so i never crave it at the same time i go to great lengths to enjoy what i do eat.
Matt, yes the psychological turmoil is huge, but The negative health consequences go beyond this. I think the limitation of food sources is physiologically damaging as well. All foods probably have some toxic and some therapeutic benefits, and the problems may arise when you consume too much of one and not enough of others.
The best nutrition advice I've ever heard was "diversify your toxins!"
Chief,
I'm with you on the pig. Never really felt comfortable with it, but will eat if I was a guest.
I'm still thinking about you training strategy and I can't picture how you can do 2 minute workouts. This is about how long it takes me to do 1 set of pullups. Can you provide us with a more detailed outline?
The picture at the top of the page is especially ironic today, huh?
I wouldn't have thought about it except this from the last posts' comment section really struck me:
"Also, don't put so much stock in how people look physically. A person can become leaner and develop 10 health problems that they are in denial about and all you see is the person getting lean, which forms your judgment.
If you want to see an example of that happening, scroll to the top of this page and look at the picture of the guy holding a knife and pig's head. He had been eating a low-carb diet for 3 years and had indigestion after every meal, horrendous body and breath odor, gloomy and aggressive mood/behavior, declining sex drive, inability to build muscle lifting weights, and aching teeth – just to name a few of the things you can't see. I also couldn't eat a banana without crying.
But I sure "looked" the part of healthy, and preached the gospel of health as if I knew all the answers and that it was going to take carb-restriction to overcome the hypersinsulinemic mess the modern world had found itself in. I believed every word I wrote too. Denial isn't just a river in Africa."
At the risk of sounding like a groupie, Matt, you rock. You're the coolest jagoff on the interwebs.
Definitely a great post, Matt!
That all makes very much sense to me. Personally lumping nuts into the same category as factory farmed prok/chicken or even seed oils never really jived with me, even including that whole protective nutrient stuff.
And JT, I very very much agree that probably pretty muchevery food is more or less toxic and healing at the same time.
Oh, and speaking of ironic, I finally after 3 years of looking at it decided to make one of these for my family for Christmas Eve:
http://www.ehow.com/how_4800815_bacon-explosion-oven.html
I already bought the meat and told everyone it's coming, so too late to turn back now. Oh well.
Why do so many people have the need to find the specific cause for poor health as if it all comes down to one master thing–for some it's leptin, others cortisol, others animal foods, etc. Blaming arachidonic acid alone is a reach.
As Gazelle mentioned, inflammation [and free radicals, etc] is not black-and-white, despite what many mainstream magazines say.
People down south may eat more pork, but they also eat more seed oils and sugar. Egg fat has more AA than pork fat: I don't think egg consumption is strongly correlated with bad health. How much has our consumption of AA increased over the last 50 years compared to LA–very little?
Many studies use lard as "saturated fat," and many times it does not come out so bad (replacing sucrose with lard reduces tooth decay). But, if your still giving 30% calories as sucrose, you're going to have certain problems (or how about blaming red meat in the abstract but using corn oil in the actual experiment).
Also, vitamins A and B6 increase LA to AA conversion. Should we avoid both of those?
I would like to explain in a post how and why
produce kidney stones. Thx :)
Luisa
Danyelle-
Thanks for resurrecting that comment. It's human nature to see the world through a filter of our beliefs. We can't help but succumb to it. Good luck with the nifty pork device. As always, this post isn't something that signifies how we should all now become pork-phobic. These are just the ideas of one author. One researcher. They are interesting and worth thinking about. They do not warrant a sudden and massive change in diet unless you have some pressing inflammatory disorder and you happen to be curious about whether his ideas could be put to use or not. Maybe they can. Maybe they can't.
Perhaps, as John alludes to, going on a crusade against AA is a bad idea with guaranteed unwanted consequences, because it is not such a simple matter. I've always felt that way about it too. And those who I know who have caused and later cured things like allergies or autoimmune disease did so, not by altering their fatty acid intake, but primarily through altering their no pain, no gain attitude towards health, exercise, sleep, stress, and nutrition.
JT-
Every food on earth can be touted as healthy or unhealthy depending on which half of the research you want to look at. Like I said in the last post, wheat can be looked at as a cause of type 2 diabetes and digestive problems, or a cure for type 2 diabetes and digestive problems.
And I suspect this is because…
ALL FOODS ARE HEALTHY AND UNHEALTHY
I know of nothing in this universe that doesn't have dual attributes – both positives and negatives, benefits and drawbacks, etc.
In fact, just the other day I was reading about the antioxidant properties and cancer prevention correlation with phytic acid and lectin consumption. Friend? Foe? Or both? It's ALWAYS BOTH, which opens up a completely new paradigm of looking at nutrition.
JT,
my two minute workout is just a pre meal primer. kind of like a squat thrust with weights kettlebell swing-ish mixed with an overhead press. My goal is to use all the muscles I can and hit a point of slight fatigue right before eating. I read a book called nutrient timing and was thinking about something I saw done with old school hardcore working folks round my way which was to keep working chopping wood or whatever right up till supper is on the table only delayed mins due to hand washing.
growing up, I busted my ass a lot with my dad and because of a more relaxed approach in my adult life I decided to apply a small regiment on the daily to get some of the benefits of the acute stress combined with recovery without having to do some old " I been working on the railroad type shit".
Jauques Cartier's group said the shortest women among the iroquois they encountered were a head taller than tallest men among those on his ship and the men they encountered were very robust compared to somethings I see today among those that have adopted outside influences (not so robust looking, fat etc) . i was thinking bout this when someone spoke of kitavans and what would be optimal. I choose the routes with a good precedent.
Without going all out fanatical I try to use science to mimic a lot of the old school ways with a lot of great results not really knowing at first if there is anything to it just self experiments and asking elders and medicine people a lot of questions.
Couldn't figure out what you were referring to as a "device!"
Then I saw the link said "bacon-explosion-oven" – it's an article that describes how to make your own Bacon Explosion in an oven, instead of a smoker.
The Bacon Explosion is a dish – 3 pounds of bacon basket woven, then jelly-roll-style wrapped with sausage and crumbled bacon and barbeque sauce. My brother in law is drooling in anticipation as we speak.
This is a pet-peeve that I'm sure I'll experience on serving it – someone mentioning that it's a "heart attack waiting to happen." I don't even care if it is or not, just don't talk about food that way. Annoying.
Yeah, Danyelle, I'm in the same boat. Just loaded up on pork for Christmas week! I do tend to think much of the problem with pork boils down to the way it is raised. Of all the animals we eat pigs, are probably raised in the worst conditions, which is why they have to be dosed more than any other animal with antibiotics. Pigs farming is almost universally done in crowded, indoor conditions, and they've been selectively bred to the point where the pigs we eat bare almost no resemblance to the pigs being eaten 100 years ago. I've read stories of pigs dying from the stress of a visitor coming into their barn. Like just the smell of a different person kills them. That is one hyper-active immune response.
JT, continued
these elders have told me in the past that everything has good medicine and bad medicine (poison) depends on the dose weather its strawberries or pushups its important some things you can only handle a spec others its pounds of it.
this is why I have tried to go for the minimum effective dose in regards to exercise outside of things that I have found enjoyable which has other benefits the effect or results tell me that it is a good amount I may be wrong but I am sure happy with it.
Recently I've been using sesame oil for my skin. It's really working wonders… much better than the highly touted coconut oil. It is recommended by ayurveda for my type. So… I'm not sure if omega-6 is really all that bad.
Hans: Probably good quality sesame oil has a lot of vitamin e in which your skin might be responding too. A long time ago Matt pointed out that the Hunza used apricot oil which is super high in 06. They had excellent metabolism and seemed to be able to handle eating wheat without soaking grains, and using an apricot oil for cooking.
Oops. Busted for not checking out your link. Sorry Danyelle. I still love you I promise.
John and Gazelle-
To reiterate and fairly represent Chilton's work, he thinks inflammation is great, and that AA is awesome. He just acknowledges that there's an imbalance there, and looks at foods without preconceived notions in his attempt to address that imbalance. I think we can all appreciate that point of view.
It's the smart way too. He's not about looking for all the "anti-inflammatories" out there. You don't want to suppress inflammation or do something that is antagonistic to the inflammatory response. That's the mistake that drug manufacterers make in exploiting this science to create patent drugs, and the source of many negative side effects.
He also mentions eggs and their AA content in a section called The Incredible Inflammatory Egg.
But at the end of the day, all that really matters to him is that his son is no longer severely asthmatic and on an inhaler every day. That's more important than upholding a belief about eggs being healthy because they contain vitamin A or biotin, and refusal to see how such a food may in fact be inappropriate for someone with an overt inflammatory condition.
He's not trying to put eggs or pork or organ meats into a healthy or unhealthy category. Instead, he's looking at, "if you omit this food, and eat this instead, will your inflammatory condition go away?"
And hey, maybe it does work. Wouldn't that be a shame if I kept millions of suffering people away from something that could improve their health because I had a strict allegience to the healthiness of the egg?
I have no allegience to any food, or ideology. And I'm willing to scrutinize and explore any of the thousands of ideas on health circulating in the world today.
Hey matt. What do you think about diets like the GAPS diet or SCD diet for healing the gut. You would basically follow the diet for anywhere from 6-18 months, and its goal is to eradicate bad bacteria that cause a myraid of conditions, while re populating the gut with the good ones. After enough healing has occured you could go back to normal eating.
Do you think it would just cause too many problems?
How can one go about switching their gut flora back to the right direction without eating lower-ish in the carb department in terms of grains/starch/sugars, or is there no other way?
Matt,
Interesting with the phytic acid and cancer. Do you recall any of Art Ayers' of Cooling Inflammation ideas on phytate? He never flat out says it's good or bad, but he makes the case that in some instances it is good, by removing minerals from harmful gut biofilms.
How can one go about switching their gut flora back to the right direction without eating lower-ish in the carb department in terms of grains/starch/sugars, or is there no other way?
This is the million-dollar question. Personally, I have just been put on two – count 'em – TWO antibiotics at once. This is pretty much my worst nightmare come true, and there was no question of avoiding it in this case. The only thing I know to do is jump right into GAPS eating for… how long? How long will it take to recover from a double dose of such gut-destroying pills? I feel like all my hard work towards healing my metabolism is going straight down the drain…
OK Matt, I have a big question.
I have a 17 year old girl at church that is wanting to reduce her asthma problems.
On top of all this, I have admonished her to cut out sugar and reduce the extreeme amount of grains she is eating.
So far the fmaily is not into whole grains yet, so a reduction was in order.
She has bad asthma, and until she lowered her sugar she had quite literally, black under eyes.
They are transitioning to raw dairy.
The whole family is suffering from what I would call malnutrion, American style.
They are commited to making some changes right now at least.
What would be good for this young lady to help reduce her asthma issues?
So how do we reduce our inflammation if it isn't by reducing our omega 6 intake? What's the bottom line?
"ALL FOODS ARE HEALTHY AND UNHEALTHY
I know of nothing in this universe that doesn't have dual attributes – both positives and negatives, benefits and drawbacks, etc."
To quote some Shakespeare on this:
"For nought so vile that on the earth doth live,
But to the earth some special good doth give;
Nor aught so good, but, strain'd from that fair use,
Revolts from true birth, stumbling on abuse"
So basically it comes down to: Everything I need to know about life I should have learned in English class.
On another note, would menstrual cramps be considered an ailment of overreactive inflammatory response? I assume so since my non-steroidal anti-inflammatories (i.e. Tylenol, Advil) get rid of everything, not only the muscle pain but the bowel issues and just general miserable feeling.
"How can one go about switching their gut flora back to the right direction without eating lower-ish in the carb department in terms of grains/starch/sugars, or is there no other way?"
A few months back Matt wrote a post about RS3-resistant starch. The point was less about eating probiotics, than making an ideal environment for the good bacteria. Resistant starch is the ideal meal for these good guys of the gut. His RS3 salad has done wonders for my digestion, bringing victory in a years long battle with constipation. I usually make a big batch and live off of it until it's gone whenever I have digestive issues. It's worth a shot rather than going to some difficult GAPS protocol.
"On another note, would menstrual cramps be considered an ailment of overreactive inflammatory response? I assume so since my non-steroidal anti-inflammatories (i.e. Tylenol, Advil) get rid of everything, not only the muscle pain but the bowel issues and just general miserable feeling."
It's possible, that you've hit the nail on the head. The classic PMS tea recipe (Traditional Medicinals, et. al.) is mostly evening primrose…which is what Chilton is recommending to supplement. I have my doubts about the book just because his website is the pill-pushing, expensive test getting that put me off Schwarzbein and others. It'll be interesting to see if 180 guys start downing PMS tea to get rid of their inflammation.
i don't know if this means anything or has any basis in anything, but i thought i'd share since so many people think coffee is the most vile thing on the planet and everyone should do everything in their power to eliminate from their life: i have been drinking a cappuccino/latte once a day for a few months and just recently started adding another one in the afternoons. i grind my own beans fresh and make the espresso and then steam raw whole milk to 120 degrees and i do not add sweeteners of any kind. i have been feeling great. if i get a coffee out it is not the same, obviously, and makes me feel a little crappy.
we just moved to LA this past july and the past 5 months have been pretty stressful along with our 16 mo old daughter not sleeping well, so not only do i get poor sleep, but to make my life easier we have been eating out a lot and i indulge in sweets and "healthy junk" meaning i only buy baked goods that are made with real ingredients–this is my justification–and my pms has been almost non existent and i have been a little less of a monster mommy in the afternoons. all this to say that even as little as a year ago i would never have allowed myself to drink coffee (it was of the devil) or eat anything but the purest of the pure foods that i could find and i never allowed sugar.
i'm not saying i have perfect health, but the elimination of the psychological terror i had going on in my mind about what to and not to eat has done wonders.
ok, I know matt, that you disagree when I say I think it's about the minerals. Well here's my thoughts. Let me know what you think…
I have been reading all these different ways people have reversed and 'cured' their diabetes. Whatever way they do it, it is generally a high carb, lower fat, whole foods diet. You can use fruits, veggies, grains, potatos, blah blah. Even veggie juices! Disrupting all that 'fiber.'
Here is the difference between veggie juices though, is that all the minerals with the sugars are in the juice. It is the minerals that control blood glucose.
In refeeding an anorexic, when glucose is introduced the the diet, the minerals available in the blood stream are quickly depleted. Phosphorus, pottasium, and what not. An anorexic has depleted their mineral stores, and we all have mineral stores.
I would say that the poor health of our people comes from refinement. Refined sugar. Refined starches. (Different than juicing veggies, as in the starches, the vitamins and minerals are in the bran or skin)
I know you said you were on a super mineral dense milk only diet, but according to some of the research I have seen, is that too much fat can inhibit mineral absorbtion.
The healthiest peoples consumed some fat, not a lot. But very high carb. Look at how prolific asians have been! I know WAPF likes to look at the eskimos, but how big is their society? how successful?
And you were right, that vegetable oils are refined. No mineral. Another load of unsuported energy the body has to draw on reserves to utilize. So the Standard American diet consists of about 42 percent refined fats, and how many pounds of refined sugars a year?
The rehab I am headed to uses fruit inbetween meals, and I was hesitant, but rethinking this, as they have success treating peoples bg issues with an all inclusive whole foods diet lower in fat. Still thinking twice about the fruit, and have been reading though that the minerals are great bg stabalizers. potassium! But then again, before my great demise, I was binging on ten pounds of grapes a day and freezing my ass off.
P.S. If spiking bg has nothing to do with diabetes or IR, then neither does grinding whole grains into flours. THe nutrients are still there… I ate a whole box of brown rice and spinach pasta with tomatoe sauce and my bg topped at 125. Yet my fasting is still high.
I guess what I am getting at with m many posts is, everyone keeps finding all these parts of foods that are good or bad. If we don't isolate, we get the whole thing. The carbs with the minerals to make them work. Same with fats and protiens.
Wouldn't this make more sense?
None of those ancient civilizations filled up on wite flour, sugar, and preservatives as staples, which is what we do.
P.S. a skinless potato is a refined potato I think.
@Jenni
Where is that salad recipe?
I thought the recipe was linked to the post, but it is not. Maybe Matt will drop it, but here it is in a nutshell.
5 pounds of red potatoes, cooked, cooled to room temp. (I peel, I mean refine them).
2 ears of corn roasted or a cup frozen sweet corn, thawed
1 can of beans (white navy or pinto work well)
2 large red bell peppers roasted and peeled.
Combine the ingredients and top with dressing. Matt's ranch is great for this. (Sour cream, money spice, finely chopped scallions, fresh thyme). I drench mine in ranch and eat it at room temp. I really don't like it cold out of the fridge.
Jenny, is the rs3 salad something that has improved your digestion permanently/on a long term basis, or is it something you have to eat daily to really help your constipation??
I dont really have the typical "small hard" stools like most. I just get many small weak urges in the morning and have like 4 or 5 mini dumps over a short period of time. Did you just have the typical kind, or have you ever experienced anything similar??
geez, since we are all sharing poo stories, mine have been…
lol
Hmmm… That sounds tasty. will have to get some sour cream.
YEah, yeah, yeah…I am perfectly fine sharing my stories if someone can help me get back to normal lol :P
I tend to boil a large yam every night and eat it, would cooling it to room temp count as some resis. starch?
Is someone familiar with the 2 week vegan diet that tim ferris suggest in his 4 hour body wo book?
Is it legumes/grains based??
Poooping Anonymous, I find that a big batch of RS3 kills digestive problems until I do something really stupid like binge on white flour and sugar for a week or so. It's great to make and eat before I go on vacation, as a little preventive medicine.
My constipation pattern was for years I would go without going for 3 or 4 days in a row. If I did have a BM it would be hard and painful to pass. Then I'd eat something with a lot of fat and I'd have loose stools for about 24 hours, and then the constipation pattern would begin again. I think I was borderline IBS for years only didn't know it. I didn't realize IBS could have a constipation component. Until I spent a lot of time here, reading about other peoples poop problems.
By the way, I can mark the beginning of my digestive problems to being on Weight Watchers, ironic since the low-fat, high fiber diet of WW is what many doctors prescribe for the condition. The basic underlying problem was that my metabolism was really low. Once I boosted that, digestive ailments were greatly improved. I still get problems when I go crazy with the white stuff, but like a said a little (ok a lot of) the RS3 salad sorts me out.
Erika,
Do you have a reference showing saturated fat inhibits mineral absorption, because glucose and insulin both increase Mg excretion…
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7587003
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/5432375
Metabolism of minerals is no doubt more important than magnitude of intake. There are very few foods that are noticeably rich in minerals, and those foods (nuts, seeds, etc) are also rich in mineral inhibitors. Whole foods in general should give a perfectly reasonable amount of minerals (and all micronutrients).
Hamlet, he say
"for there is nothing either good or
bad, but thinking makes it so"
Thanks Lisa.
How did you go about raising your metab? Did you do a full on RRARF, or just eat a good amount of all the macros to appetite (and maybe a little beyond)?
I am on 3000 cals most days a week and 2500 once or twice for a break. I am around 40/35/25 carb/protein/fat (not on purpose, just what comes up in fit day). Maybe too much protein is giving me probs, though I dount thats it as I get plenty of carbs and fat. Also cut out protein powder recently and nothing has really changed.
Sorry for talkin g about the bowel stuff alot, they are a source of anxiety for me (I fear I will always have that pattern of many weak and incomplete bms, but I had 20.5 years of perfectly normal bms before this happened, so I have to believe I can get back to it being young with a cooperative body)
@John
No I dont have a reference as it is an unpublished source of education. I don't know if its right or wrong, but I have noticed that for me at this point I have trouble with a lot of fat in my diet. Matt is right that the carb boosts metabolism. It's the easiest source of energy for the body to utilize and rebuild with. I don't think that a high calorie high carb diet is bad ,and may make fats eventually more tolerated.
I was on mcdougalls forum, and one guy cured his IR with the protocol, and then added fats back into his diet without the IR returning.
I agree that the carb is metabolicaly healing and that a higher ratio of carbs to fat is optimal, and that is what my RBTI course says as well.
But unfortunately, whole foods are not that awesome today. The cucumber I tested rated a 3. Poor is a 4 and excellent is a 13. That's total energy stored within the cucumber. Sugars and minerals, proteins and fats.
People back when could eat less bulk and maintain health, because soils were not depleted. Minerals control the carb content of foods. It's the same for us as humans.
There are studies done on animals using highly mineralised foods. Groups were fed less amounts of food, but the food was higher in nutrition and carb content. They did better on less bulk, whereas the ones fed regular food ate more, but were not as healthy.
It doesn't really have so much to do with bulk, but what is in the food, and this is probably why we have to eat so much more to get out what we need.
And to top it off, people don't eat enough as is…
I have been in anorexia rehab, and I was eating roughly 1200 calories a day before (didn't know that was anorexic. Diet ffrom running trainer) Anyway, they started me off on 2500 calories a day, and the first day I was fine, but the second, I could not eat another bite after lunch.
I am now pounding the food trying to gain weight, and am entering a refeeding program hoping to gain 25 pounds in 45-60 days. Basically, you eat all day every day, and get massages. Lol… But weight gain is THE prerequisite to regaining health in a starved state, and it's pretty damn hard to gain weight on a whole foods diet, as the calorie content is lower than it should be.
THe calorie content of an 'excellent' rated cucumber would be three times that of the poor cucumber, so to get the benefit of a whole cucumber, I have to eat three crappy ones. And the colon can't soak up mineral with excessive fat, especially if there is not much mineral there.
For some reason I seem to always post crap twice…
?And JT, I very very much agree that probably pretty much every food is more or less toxic and healing at the same time.
?Every food on earth can be touted as healthy or unhealthy depending on which half of the research you want to look at.
?All foods probably have some toxic and some therapeutic benefits, and the problems may arise when you consume too much of one and not enough of others.
So what have we decided here? No foods are particularly unhealthy, therefore diet has no impact on disease, therefore almost every post on this blog has been a complete waste of time, and we’re back to square one??
And most healthy preindustrial cultures had diets restricted to a very limited number of foods. I can’t see how a lack of variety in our food choices is the cause of disease, unless we are unfortunate enough to base our diet on a food that is destructive to us.
On GAPS/SCD-
I've come across a few personal anecdotes of success, and, it is a whole foods diet after all which for many is enough to trigger miracle healings, but in general I think…
1) GAPS sucks
2) The theory behind it is totally wrong
3) It's a good way to screw up your intestinal ecology, not fix it
4) Probiotics are great if you are selling them, but not if you are taking them
Feed them, and they will come. Raise your metabolism and work to control inflammation and you will have less excessive fermentation and putrefaction in the gut, as well as less of an inflammatory response to acids, proteins, etc. traveling through there.
That's my "theory" at least. What I do know is that most of the people trying GAPS don't need to be doing GAPS. If you have autism, sure, give it a whirl. But for constipation? You'd be better off eating 4 pounds of cheddar cheese a day to cure constipation.
Erika-
The minerals are key, and the nutrient depletion is a huge factor in the etiology of modern disease – not so much due to soil depletion as Chek might have some believe, but do to the average American getting over 80% of calories from sources with no mineral content (white flour, refined sweeteners, fats).
Paula-
Eating real food is the best place to start. For me, hitting puberty was the first cure, but it came back with my high-sugar, high-exercise lifestyle by age 18. I have heard many pro-asthma anecdotes from drinking raw milk, especially for lil' kiddos.
Roberto-
Not necessarily back to square one, but refusing to engage in petty, polarized arguments over the virtues and evils of certain specific foods to the point of headache. If you want to chastise a food, it's easy to formulate an argument with good "scientific backing." Same goes for annointing a certain food.
I say eat THE food, without paying too much detail over what that food is as long as it's nutritious – and even eating non-nutritious foods from time to time once your health is pretty strong and resilient and your relationship with food strong and liberated.
Matt
Fair enough.
You're right, it is too easy to manipulate science to extol or condemn any food.
The other day, I realized how out of hand the nutrition debate has gotten when I couldn’t think of a single food in my diet that I didn’t have some sort of paranoia about. Gluten in my rye, fructose in my fruit, glycoalkaloids in my potatos, casein in my cheese, arachidonic acid in my eggs. Not to mention lingering fears in regard to fat and carbs.
I suppose our best guides are our own bodies. Just experiment and tease out which foods allow for good health and which ones prevent it.
I also think the main problem is from not getting enough minerals and vitamins- from eating foods that have been stripped (vegetable oils, white flour and white sugar) and not replacing those lost nutrients. I think that is why I had such great results when I was juicing like a madwoman. Adding all those vitamins and minerals without all the bulk to fill me up, so I could still eat more filling foods. Better than synthetic vitamin pills.
I love matt for giving me permission to just eat food without trying to follow a silly diet that excludes several healthy food groups.
I agree.
I doubt it's so simple, but in my opinion, a deficiency in vitamins, minerals (and whatever else our bodies need) provides a reasonable explanation for why we over-eat.
We absolutely need vitamins and minerals to live, and if they're not present in sufficient amounts, what choice would our bodies have but to induce constant hunger and eating in search for them?
So we could end up with an excess of energy that has to be stored as fat. And if we never reached optimal levels of these nutrients, that cycle could possibly continue indefinitely.
But once again, it likely isn't that simple.
Erika, about inuits (eskimos) it's hard to compare their success to anyone else other than perhaps people living in the desert. If you ever spent any time in their traditional environment you would quickly see it is a harsh place to survive let alone thrive in. Im pretty hardcore and could most likely survive there if a plane crash made it a must but I doubt many would be able to. I for one would devote a lot of my energy to getting the *&#@ out of there ASAP lol. I have been there and for them to have had a permanent sustainable society of any kind is remarkable to me and a sign of success. The far reaches of the arctic is not for pansies.
my point is their high fat diet can't really fairly judged on it's ability to sustain a population due to the extreme nature of the environmental variable.
If we could go back and study populations that had buffalo jumps to basically gather fat and protein in quasi-unlimited proportions we might be able to say high fat is good or bad.
roberto,
lack of nutrition can influence appetite but without the internal environment set up for fat storage the increased volume will not automatically result in fat gain in healthy individuals. The body adjust metabolic rate, transit time or induces spontaneous physical activity and a host of other things to make up for the difference. when you are in starvation mode your metabolic rate is reduced and "presto" like a switch turned on fat gain occurs It also fights back to keep you from eating too much of something such as more calories than it can handle. try drinking 3 gallons of chocolate milk in one shot.
I can drink that much water easily if i am thirsty enough but I doubt i could drink 3 gallons of pepsi without my body fighting back with a pukey vibe even though i can easily eat that many calories in one sitting.
The human body has an amazing ability to make up for nutrient density if not coming across different food types while being a hunter gatherer roaming around the world would have resulted in super fat populations from trying to eat 30 pounds of tubers a day to get enough nutrition.
Nick
Tim ferriss' vegetarian diet is pretty much his slow carb diet without meat and supplementing with vegan protein and it does not say in the book but I assume more legumes in place of meat.
his slow carb is explained here
http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog/2007/04/06/how-to-lose-20-lbs-of-fat-in-30-days-without-doing-any-exercise/
Ok, I have to speak up in defense of my beloved Evening primrose caps. Most of you guys know my deal, but let's put it this way. If I Do NOT take them, I get swollen, painful bresticles. If I do take them twice a day, the beast is tamed.
That is a good enough reason for me to Take the EP caps.
Anyone else using them for anything?
xo
deb
PS I do Not want a third nipple as the original pair give me enough grief thank you very much. :)
Either my brain is wearing out or I just have a spelling problem, even mispelling my somewhat made up words.
Breasticles is what I meant to say.
Jeez, getting old is a bitch.
I'm not sure I understand today's post Matt? Are you saying to eat Omega 6 again in the form of nuts, seeds, avocado and olive oil? And also to take evening primrose oil?
Only last night I was wondering when Omega 6 PUFA's would be let off the hook on this blog, and a post being put up questioning why anyone else ever demonised them and blamed them for all the things they've been blamed for.
Well, I didn't think it'd be this soon, but there you go.
Funny how most things that some people amd groups have been saying for years (and being made fun of for doing so) are slowly and pretty erratically being made part of the 180 approach.
Soon pork (as long as its farmed properly) will be on the "ok" list, I'm sure, and anyone who avoids it will probably be labeled orthorexic.
As for fear of food being unhealthy and apparently not very 180, this site was the very place where I'm sure more than a few people got their very irrational and stressful fear of nuts and chicken fat from.
FWIW, I think Matt's general message of trying to minimise stress and give the body the nourishment it needs is great. I read the same thing in Nourishing Traditions years ago and thought it was great then.
Mildly OT, but on the topic of food and stress and 180's, I'll keep soaking my grains, as:
a) it really doesn't cause me any stress to do so, and
only takes a few minutes to do – people here tend to make out as if it's some massive task that requires great sacrifices and deprivation
b) I know it's a only a matter of time until it's the flavor of the month around here and I'll be part in the flow
:) think positive amigos, minimise stress – eat omega6… it ain;t that bad after all
Ren.
MAtt,
With tho whole protein thing, why do the many many members who eat anywhere from 1.5-2 grams of protein on various lifting forums do fine with it?? IS it because they dont have a low level of health, and once someone gets back to a higher state of health they can eat higher protein with no ill effect?
Reading through some of this you see where they talk about how the japanese are an example of people who live extremely long and eat high carb, lower fat, etc. That isnt true. The studies stating that the japanese diet was high carb, lower fat, were done at the tail end of WW II when people were poor and could not afford more meats, fat, dairy, etc. Since propserity has returned over the decades their consumption of dairy, meat, and fat has gone up again, and carbs have come down as well.
@Chief
I agree, its a pretty harsh climate up there, and living is considered a success, but I tire of it being promoted as optimal for all humans. Any diet for that matter.
@Ren
If Matt ever comes out and says pork is good, I'll throw a fit. There are many reasons pork is not good, and I would hope he would look further into the physics of it. The body cannot gain energy from pork, and there is increasing evidence that all red meat and fat is not the same. That it is more ham and lard that are the problems.
Note to everyone, you would be completely shocked at how the pig has become a part of nearly every processed food item. Perhaps that is a part of the deadly combo of refined flours, sugars, and nutritionless food.
@Matt
I agree about the fact that our diets suck, but it takes a lot longer on a whole foods diet to make up for years of abuse because full nutrition is not there.
@Jenny
Quit refining your potatos. lol.
I don't eat the sweet potato skins, ew. But don't mind downing reds or yellows for some extra mineral.
@Anonymous
I think the point is they eat a lot of carbs, whether mixed or not.
The japanese and several people of other asian cultures all ahd the same thing going for them. They ate a lot.
Same with the Persians I knew, and they were old, thin, and healthy.
The other day, I realized how out of hand the nutrition debate has gotten when I couldn’t think of a single food in my diet that I didn’t have some sort of paranoia about. Gluten in my rye, fructose in my fruit, glycoalkaloids in my potatos, casein in my cheese, arachidonic acid in my eggs. Not to mention lingering fears in regard to fat and carbs.
Amen. I remember a time when I'd basically just look at the whfoods.org list, pick a food and base a meal around it… eat as much as I wanted and feel great for it. Slipping into orthorexia and pretty soon not many things on the list were an option. I'm getting back to how it used to be and I love it, eat the food! I'm gonna go buy some walnuts, almonds, brazil nuts etc. I always did great on them. Thanks Matt.
And I have a feeling exercise is a big part of the anti-inflammatory equation. Sedentary lifestyle, obviously we all know burning calories is NOT the problem as the mainstream would have us think, it is about the cytokine environment.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2836182/'tool=pubmed
anon,
not sure what ill effects you mean but just because one says he or she is " fine " does not mean it is optimal.
when body builders eat excessive amounts of protein one of 2 things happens the protein gets used in place of carbs for energy which requires conversion within the body which creates strain. ( a lot of waste from processing it and it's subsequent thermal effect) or 2 it simply gets excreted out in feces unused. there is no real magic number of how much protein a healthy body can handle but in my experience watching over people training I saw no difference above 1 gram per pound of lean body mass ( subtract fat) I usually recommend . 6 to 1 gram for people that like to calculate everything I personally just eat as my hunger dictates. If you hit the weights you will crave a steak, unless you were raised vegan and never had it before.
I assume that you are like most people asking about protein and you are looking to gain muscle. If you are sure you have a good workout that creates stimuli then usually it's only eating that might hold you back. When people have trouble gaining weight 80 percent of the time it is not eating enough total food ( usually carbs) 15% is lack of proper nutrition in the food and 5 % of the time you either have reached your max genetic potential or you have some sort of medical issue.
You guys need to quit sweating the pig. The fact that you are fixating on another food that you now need to avoid because it is "unhealthy" just shows that you are indeed suffering from orthorexia.
I thought we had already smashed the low carbist myth that Asians don't eat much carbs anymore. I don't understand how people could believe this. I have spent a lot of time in Asia and I can assure that the diet is based on white rice.
Erika, I hear you there on the optimal part it may be sustainable but not optimal in my eyes for any humans.
I have long believed "porky's revenge" is one of the key ingredients in metabolic syndrome and perhaps physical degeneration even. I based this on pork, veggie oils sugar and white flour make up 80-90 percent of "rez" food (I forgot potato chips). I have spoke at schools where some kids are 12 and never ate a carrot before and could not identify a lot of foods which is a far contrast to 3 to 4 generation prior.
I'm curious as you are the first besides myself to speak out about pork negatively here on 180, if you might have information i have not come across. perhaps you have some links or sources or books that you might suggest or be able to share. Feel free to email me justaskchief@gmail.com if it is too much for a comment or if you prefer it that way.
Hi Matt
thanks for the post. I'm concerned since my son has food allergies but no asthma for the moment — hope it will last.
I'm just reading some books from a french nutritionist — Jean-Philippe Zermati. I think if available in English you should read it. About food-calorie association and so son.
JT, I'll sweat the pig and the bear as well as i dont consider them food any more than motor oil. it has calories but i would not eat it. if that makes me orthopedic or orthophonic or ortho-whtever it has no detrimental effects on my mental state.
Dogs eat poop and obviously consider it food but I would not pull a Aajonus Vonderplanits ever no matter how healthy it was considered looking at it that way I'm sure most people would be defined as orthorexic.
"You guys need to quit sweating the pig. The fact that you are fixating on another food that you now need to avoid because it is "unhealthy" just shows that you are indeed suffering from orthorexia."
JT learned a new word while he was away. Drink every time he calls us orthorexic. Add that to the other JT drinking game rules: drink everytime he calls us fat and lazy because we don't follow his exercise regime.
estelle,
what's the name of the book? I read an interview and although he seems to be anti buffet lol he is anti diet so must not be too stupid. he does affirm the set point and talked about something I have been trying to explain "establishing true hunger" which he calls appetite recognition or regulation.
jenny, i'm drinking . . . kool aid with sugar.
Hey Matt, made your 180 celery root puree last night for my mom and family as part of the start of Christmas celebration. It made the biggest hit since cream corn, this summer. Plates and pan were licked clean. Vegetables, plus fat = a dreamworld of magic.
Jenny,
The sad thing is that because of the orthorexia many of you guys suffer from you would not even be able to consume a suitable beverage everytime I use the word! Maybe one of you will be able to increase the alcohol content high in your raw milk kefir so that you can play the game!
I started to feel bad about picking solely on the paleophiles so I thought I would be fair and broaden my scope to include all orthos including myself.
Chief,
It is fine if you don't wanna eat pig. I try to avoid it as well. But, i really dont know if it is actually good or bad if comsumed in moderation. My point was that it is just another food for many of these people to fixate on.
@JT
Depends on how you define obsession.
Just because someone has a illogical belief doesn't necessarily mean they're obsessed. Does an affinity for spanking make someone a sadomasochist?
Overstating the case is a good way to make everyone dismiss you.
P.S. cool to see you back.
Chief,
Your comparison of pork and bear meat to motor oil is not legitimate. You could live a long and healthy life eating mostly pig and bear. You would die if you tried to do this with motor oil.
If you choose to avoid them based on religious/ cultural reasons then that is a fine enough reason.
Greensmu,
Actually if someone did have an obsession/ fixation with spanking then they probably would be diagnosed with some type of mental illness or sadomasochism.
Obsession is not an obscure term and there is no need for any of invent our own definitions.
It is good to be back and glad to hear from you.
Hi chief,
It is a bit too complicated to post on a comment. I will have some time to myself this afternoon once kids are napping to send you an email. I know I know, people are anti bible or whatever, but there is an optimal diet laid out in a lot of 'religious' texts, that I have found to not be based on religion. There are sets of laws with science that goes deeper than us all being a bag of enzymes.
Much more than just mineral, there is frequency. This equals how fast the electrons spin. I will try to pull some quotes from my material to send you, but basically, the way it is put by the physicist was, eating pork is like putting jet fuel into a minivan. It burns way too hot and too fast for us to pick up energy from. Long story short, pork, nor any other "unclean meat" is not on our frequency. I would tend to start believing a lot of what the bible or other ancient texts speak of in terms of this as we are now just finding that anient civilizations had a deep understanding of things we are now just 'rediscovering.' Look into Sacred geometry. This was known long before the meridian of time. Makes me wonder what else they knew?
They knew that bear was not a good food… Calling it dirty or unclean was a way to describe the damage or energy loss that occurs from eating these things.
Sure occasional if you have good reserves, but the constant and large amount we ingest certainly plays a huge role in our demise.
JT
You could not live a long and healthy life eating pork and bear. I would dare you to try using pork every day for a month as your meat source, and come back and tell us how you feel.
Erika,
Research the Optimal Diet. It is based on large amounts of pork everyday and many people have reported remission of diseases by following it. There are plenty of other cultures that consume pork as their main protein source.
Again, I'm not recommending it, but is crazy to say that you can't be physically healthy if you eat it.
Obviously I was wrong to use that analogy. What I meant was that there are some who get turned on by killing people. It's a matter of degree.
I have, and guess what. A whole lot of people are very ill from it. There are a lot of people who claim great health following aajonus. One woman I met, claimed the greatest health of her life. She is fat, sick, and ew. And has whip worm. She is one who writes a lot for aajonus ways!
Still, provide proof that pork is optimal. And if you are so sure, do the one month thing.
Kind of OT but…
Does anyone else have trouble with foggy head and depression drinking milk? What is that?
Okinawans have traditionally eaten a fair amount of pork and live very long lives.
I spent years being "unfixated" and extremely sick. I'll take "orthorexic" and greater health any day! Most of us here have the rare luxury to determine and improve our health status as best we can and choose what we do/n't put in our bodies…why shouldn't we decide what is most optimal for ourselves?
Dr. JT, why do we need another diagnosis?
"Jenny,
The sad thing is that because of the orthorexia many of you guys suffer from you would not even be able to consume a suitable beverage everytime I use the word! Maybe one of you will be able to increase the alcohol content high in your raw milk kefir so that you can play the game! "
Hey Potato Vodka is gluten free mutherfu—Sorry, the gluten detox talking again.
"I started to feel bad about picking solely on the paleophiles so I thought I would be fair and broaden my scope to include all orthos including myself."
Yeah, there's a word for that kind of internet behavior it's called um, oh let me see, I can't remember. Maybe Boromir can help me out on this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAyh23l1mx4&feature=related
God I can't believe you guys are ignoring my breasts and my evening primrose habit!!!!!!
And for the record, this ortho LOVES yam/sweet potato skins.
Never had me a bear but I do eat some nitrate free bacon from Niman Ranch about once every few months. Damn it's good. I just have to try not to watch Babe right before I cook it.
:)
Erika,
I never said pork was optimal.
Jenny,
What is wrong with pointing out that we all need to quit being so obsessive with diet.
Anon,
I am not against choosing to live a healthy lifestyle. I try to do it myself. think it is important to eat a healthy diet and get physical activity. I am just saying there is no need to fixate on certain foods as being good or bad. The stress of worrying about these things is probably more harmful than actually eating the "healthy" foods.
There are some foods that particular people just cant eat because it results in a migraine, or diahrrea, etc.
But this does not apply to all people.
It is easy to come up with all sorts of reasons NOT to eat a food. It may do this, it may do that, etc etc.
Fear drives the whole process of eating.
Whatever one does to try discover what one 'should' eat, increases the momentum of the fear, provides more energy.
Working towards seeing the 'inner' boundaries this establishes and looking to pry these apart is a valuable exercise for someone who has had enough.
Hey Deb, I love Niman Ranch pork. I loaded up on it for Christmas. Had to sell off some of the family heirlooms to pay for it, but it was worth it. Yum.
Yeah, Matt as per your pork eating in the South, I was thinking about this last night. Native Hawaiians love all things that come from the pig and have the highest mortality rate of any ethnic group in America. Then again, it is probably a combination of sugar and white flour displacing the unrefined carbs in the native diet and the fact that most modern Hawaiians are eating farmed pig in favor of hunting wild boar.
@ Matt's reply to GAPS…
Yeah. It sounds like a good idea in theory. I think it is based of the idea that your villi get all F'd up (the brush bordrs and their enzymes) so you lack adequate dissacharidases, and when carbohydrates now dont get properly digested they just feed the bad bacteria.
Guess it wouldn't apply to me then as a biopsy of my villi looked normal, and all of my dissacharidase enzymes were either at mid range or above it (except lactase which was really low, but that was when I was avoiding dairy altogether,and now that I eat it it doesn't bother me).
And I am not constipated in the normal sense of just hard stools. Even when my stuff is nice and soft, My bowels just feel like they lack power, and I have like 5 or 6 mini dumps in 10-20 mins most mornings. Seems like a dysmotility problem, and I dont know what would be causing that. Could it just be a different form of presenting constipation due to an extended time of not getting enough food/over exercising?
Thank you Jenny for rendering me visible again!
Trader Joes sells the Niman ranch bacon and a slab o ham steak too. I got the one with the least sodium, I think it is uncured.
On Hawaiians: Matt knows, it's the Spam effect over there. You get 'da plate lunch' and can see that it is just a deep fryed, spamola, white rice and gravy nightmare. Hardly authentic Hawaiian/Samoan food.
Spam Spam Spam Spam, wonderful Spam!!!!!
Oh and lest we forget, Shave Ice? We call it a snow cone, your body calls it cheap ice with syrup on it and tons of food color. Why is that a Hawaiian treat instead of fresh pineapple or coconut? It makes more profit.
Matt, I have a question about this comment:
"In the last post I mentioned my growing doubt over the belief that by keeping polyunsaturated fat intake exceedingly low, this overzealous stress response could be lowered to a healthy level. Heck, I’ve eaten a very low omega 6 diet for an entire year now, with, if anything, an increasing inflammatory response."
Why do you think this is the case? Do you think some of it has to do with the fact that you are losing fatty tissue?
Do you think some of the inflammation is coming from a higher carb intake?
The reason I say these things because your health conditions mirror my own — and I was born premature. So maybe I'll always have some metabolic problems — and slight allergies to food (especially dairy and eggs)
No ammount of tea or omega 3 ever really brings down the last layers of inflammation I experience (I have brought it down over the years in general though)
Keeping omega 6 low doesn't seem to help me that much.
I've also tried stuff like flax oil too to see if that might help — and I get so wired I start bouncing off walls, so that cant be good. Too much fish oil does the same effect.
The only thing without question that lowers general inflammation for me is fasting. Even at the 10-12 hr mark I feel the benefits.
I think the act of eating is so inflammatory that individuals who are prone to inflammation need to follow a pattern of eating that has less meals a day. I am also aware that my cortisol levels go up if I eat this way <—– so I don't know if I can win. Maybe there are foods I can eat that would stop this effect (I'm thinking non-acid fruits) <—- I just always worry about my teeth when fruit are involved, but they seem to be so anti-inflammatory!! At least to my body.
Hopefully I'll figure out what works at some point.
Matt, can you comment more on this:
"In the last post I mentioned my growing doubt over the belief that by keeping polyunsaturated fat intake exceedingly low, this overzealous stress response could be lowered to a healthy level. Heck, I’ve eaten a very low omega 6 diet for an entire year now, with, if anything, an increasing inflammatory response."
What are your ideas on this?
I also think meal frequency plays a large role in inflammation because the act of eating is so inflammatory. But at the same time, not eating usually causes an increase in cortisol. I have to note that when I fast — I know my whole body inflammation goes down.
Maybe eating fruit is helpful here. Because I never seem to get inflammation from fruit — but I do worry about my teeth.
Ho brah you get one plate lunch?
In Hawaii they would say that you guys are makin' beef over pork.
Speaking of pork, I'm reading Linda Bacon right now and thus far she's made a few primary assertions about weight, health, etc, with one of the strongest proclamations being…
Your diet should be "unrestrained," and restraining your diet is more harmful than any type of food out there.
The next assertion is that you should use your body physically – not for weight loss, but for health.
I'm going to give JT that, because, at the end of the day, I happen to agree with this general prescription more and more every day. Both are important steps on the path to developing a healthier relationship with our food and our bodies.
Aaron-
I think the anti-inflammatory effects of reduced meal frequency, reduced calorie intake, fasting, etc. ALL stem from increased cortisol production, which puts out the fires of inflammation, but with lots of collateral damage. Short-term gain, long-term pain.
I noticed an increase in pain upon increasing carb intake, but this has slowly decreased. All great thoughts and I experience the exact same thing, just interpret it a little differently.
Straining Pooper-
You've eaten a low-calorie diet and have been underweight for quite some time. Plus, I've read in several places that high protein intake can be a drain on the thyroid.
One thing that happens is that the bacteria in your gut shift to fermicute dominance. When this happens, you produce less and less residue and have less complete, and less bulky bowel movements.
As you eat more, and your metabolism rises (perhaps these bacterial types are temperature sensitive?) you'll start to produce more bacteroides bacteria, pass more stool, start to resist weight gain (eventually) and so forth.
I think this connection, which I just had an epiphany on the last few days is a major reason why RRARF is so good at decreasing constipation issues, overcoming lots of things, including propensity to gain weight eating carbohdyrates (just one of many factors, as this is probably yet another feedback system in charge of weight and metabolism regulation).
Matt-
rises in cortisol levels is NOT seen in reduced meal frequency/intermittent fasting. This only happens with low calorie diets.
Matt,
I am also interested in what you say about fermicutes vs bacteriodes. I have seen the stuides that show weight loss benefits to bacteriodes, but how do we know that is not at the expense of the vitamins that may be produced by the fermicutes. Not to mention, fermictues would be producing butyric acid for us, not the bacteriodes. We need a balance, I'm just not sure what it is yet. And I've also heard that high animal protein intake usually increases bacteroides and not fermicutes so I don't know if you are saying that or not.
Bacteriodes really seem to turn down inflammation in the gut, which in turn would probably turn down whole body inflammation. Maybe a reason to eat more fat (as peter from hyperlipid would say).
This line of thinking would also make typical probiotics useless, which I think is the position you take.
For some reason I'm starting to think nuts may be more healthly for us than I have thought in the past. Mainly because it delivers fats in a non-inflammatory way. Regardless of the LA it delivers.
Chief & Erika, my understanding is that pork was considered 'unclean' first due to parasites from being farmed by biblical cultures.
There is much to be learned from biblical cultures and their rules on animals, women & children – namely that they are a load of shit.
Second, I just had a convo on orthorexia so thought I would add…
Orthorexia is a term COMMONLY used by unhealthy people to dismiss or marginalize people who actually VALUE health, food and wellness.
IMO, it will soon be a term used more often in medical establishment to dismiss healthy people who are contrarian to the standardized food pyramid doctrine (People like us).
The term truthfully means people who obsess over food, dieting. This blog seems to be frequented by people who VALUE health & wellness and LOVE food and therefore naturally discuss the topic with passion.
Valuing, appreciating nutrition or loving food and having a sincere interest in the topic is healthy, its not any condition.
I am kinda confused. We are in the topic what might not be be healthy may be healthy for a different person. I know when I was low carb paleo with Intermediate fasting I was having sex everyday and I had a decent looking body but my thyroid was low. My fasting insulin went from 100 to 80. I am doing high carb and my libido is shot. I am trying this for the better future not the now though and see what happens
Antonio
I did not base my decision to avoid pork on any religion, i have said there might be something to what they have said in ancient cultures and without a delorean and a flux capacitor I cant really go back and see what their reasons were, seeing that it's not one isolated group perhaps there is something there.
I'm yet to see something saying bacon prevents cancer so i don't feel I'm missing out.
everyone :
I agree that stressing about food can be a pretty bad thing … but for me at least the few things i dodge cause me no stress what so ever so I feel trying to find and optimal diet is very achievable without becoming a nutcase.
I love how Antonio gets right to the point :)
Matt you gonna talk story with me ova da Evening primrose or wha brah?
aloha
and
mahalo
Antonio,
Nobody said that valuing health, food, or wellness is bad or orthorexic. Claiming such is a diversion from what is being discussed. I am not saying you are doing this intentionally, but people with these types of pathologies use this technique frequently to justify their behaviors.
The issue are those who have an obsession with diet and fixate on certain foods being good or bad. Especially when it gets to the point where your social life and health are affected in a negative way. Like me during my paleo/low carb phase.
@Antonio
Whatever dude. I don't read the bible to figure out how to treat my kids. That come naturally. Just cause you have had some poor experience with religious zealots, or whatever your reason is for hatin, I don't care. I am not affiliated with any religion, nor do I subscribe to any dogma. But I do value history, and things that were learned, tried and true. If that leads me to texts considered 'religious,' who gives a shit.
Ben Franklin was a terd, and we still value his contribution. Picasso was crazy as hell, and we value his contribution. Just because these cultures did things I don't agree with, I still value their contribution. I can still learn from the experience of those who have gone before! I don't HAVE to subscribe to 'religious' ideologies, or beat my kids, to gain.
And I base my decisions on pork, not because the bible says so, but because of the physics of energy, that just so happens to coincide with what cultures long before, already knew.
But I do agree with Matt. TO an extent. I wish my diet could be unrestricted, but because of mistakes made, I need to regain health. I can't go out and eat my favorite peperoni pizza at the moment.
@Matt
I have seen the Linda Bacon book, before I starved myself. Wish Id jumped on that bandwagon instead of the 'healthier' vegan option. I would be much healthier now. And enjoying pizza. Well maybe in a few months.
Erika,
"Much more than just mineral, there is frequency. This equals how fast the electrons spin."
Speaking from a physics points of view, frequency "is the number of periodic oscillations, vibrations, or waves occurring per unit of time."
So what to do you mean when you say "this [frequency] equals how fast the electrons spin"?
Are you talking about how fast the electron orbits the nucleus, i.e the "atomic orbital" or do you mean the "spin" of the electron in its orbital, that is, the "spin angular momentum"? I know you said "spin" so you probably mean the latter, but too many people play fast and loose with physics terminology so I just want to be sure.
Both the atomic orbital and spin can be expressed in terms of frequency, although it is not common for physicists to do so.
Note that the atomic orbital (orbit) and spin is an inherent property of an element. For example, the atomic orbital and spin will always be the same for hydrogen, although temperature and magnetic fields will influence them in predictable ways. For instance, an increase in temperature will increase the frequency of the orbit. The same holds true for all other elements…Am I being redundant yet? : ) Sorry, force of habit from explaining physics to audiences without any formal physics background. Quantum mechanics is particularly hard to discuss with non-physicists.
Erika, I am confused by your comment do you eat pork or not ?
you said pepperoni is your favorite and you may have some in a few months. pepperoni is made from un-cooked fermented and salted pork .. unless I am mistaken so I am puzzled.
either way thanks in advance for any info you can send my way.
that statement on religion directed at antonio is actually a way better way of saying how I see it, knowledge is knowledge even from quacks or enemies or strangers or strange religions or not so strange religions that I need not follow in order to learn from it or them.
Chief – got it. You said you wouldn't eat bear or pig, so I was curious if there were other reasons. I think you said recently you are Wyandotte, my understanding is First Nations hunted/ate bear & boar (I have a Wyandotte client & NA friends so done some research).
I eat wild boar and pastured pork (bacon), but don't eat factory farmed pork.
Erika – I didn't make any claims other than religion sucks. This is especially true for women, children and animals in abrahamic religious cultures. This is obvious when looking at the history of religion.
What cultures (our ancestors) knew long before, during and after religion was invented, was living symbiotically with nature – which, for some, include eating wild boar without dominion (exploitation) & judgments of 'clean'/'unclean'.
Erika, you were the one who made a claim about pork –> 'pork, nor any other "unclean meat" is not on our frequency.'
'The bible or other ancient texts speak of…' judging & demonizing pigs (who are beautiful animals, I might add) – the source is Leviticus actually.
Do you, Erika or Chief or anyone, have any idea what's in that horrible woman hating, slave beating, homophobic, child abusing book?
It's the f**king slave owners manual of your 'ancient wisdom' – thats why I brought it up: to share more on the topic with the group so we can all learn :-)
@chief
The book I'm currently reading is "Maigrir sans r?gime" ("Losing weight without dieting").
He believes we have to find the way back to the true regulation, which is the difference btw people not gaining weight and the majority who is. So we have to find back to true hunger, true satiation (the mental signal which is different from the mechanic signal of a full stomach). Getting back to the set point is as easy as eating to appetite and only until satiation. As a psychologist he also points out the feelings that make us eat and states that we have to obey (!).
He is anti-diet which leaves us in "cognitive restriction", i.e. our brain takes over our senses with beliefs about foods that makes us get fat and so on.
Other interesting thing, he believes that our inner regulation system makes a deep analysis of every bit of food (calories, minerals and so on).
He says in his experience as a nutritionnist he has lived many trends about "what to eat" and just refuses to classify any food into "good" and "bad".
Why I think it could be interesting for your research Matt, is that he uses several studies to explain.
For me it is like RRARFing is just an accelerate way to find back to te regulation — in this book the metabolism is only in the background even if he obviously aims to heal it listening to the body signals.
Antonio said:
"Orthorexia is a term COMMONLY used by unhealthy people to dismiss or marginalize people who actually VALUE health, food and wellness.
IMO, it will soon be a term used more often in medical establishment to dismiss healthy people who are contrarian to the standardized food pyramid doctrine (People like us)."
I agree, and I can see it going far beyond just being used to just *dismiss* people who don't shove all that crap into their bodies and ensure that they are repeat customers for the food and pharmaceutical industries.
I can easily imagine health insurance companies rejecting a claim for a new leg or whatever when they find out that you've been eating butter instead of margarine, or home-rendered tallow instead of heart-smart crisco. Of course, they'll only know this if you've shared your dietary habits and beliefs with your friendly GP, who will have put a nice red flag on your file along with the diagnosis of orthorexia.
Ian2.
The only time I've ever had a clear distinction of 'true' satiation is when I gave the 'Your Body's Many Cries for Water' book a go.
I have seen it panned all over the shop, both the book and the idea that we need to drink as much water as he recommends, but slowly slowly increasing my water level, taking some salt per x unit of water and so on, I developed a true feeling of hunger over thirst, that being the core idea of the book. That we confuse our feeling of thirst with the signal to eat.
I must admit I was amazed to realise that I could have such a strong and obvious thirst to drink water. Not to say that it was excessive or in any way addictive drinking. It felt like a message straight from the body (excuse the dualism!) to wisely boost or support the body in a certain area. I'd feel a real joy drinking water and didn't have back ache, nosebleeds, any feelings of chronic stress, bad sleep or bad digestion. An improvement all round.
I am aware that you 'scientifically' have no need for this much water 'as water' but it worked an absolute dream.
The however…I felt great but became a social pariah because of the all pervasive drinking culture in my part of the uk. An outcast. Even to this day if I have to hide my desire to be healthly from friends as they just can't understand. I couldn't even drink tea or coffee which I usually love and realised that I needed to be dehydrated to enjoy them in the first place. Boo!
Great post, but a lot of crazy in the comments.
I've been getting fresh pork and sausage every week from a neighboring organic pig farm, where the piggies gambol through woods all day, eating acorns and whatevs. It is some of the best damn food I ever ate.
When I'm on my death bed, I'll give a call and let you all know how it went.
robert, you comment made me quite thirsty.^^
Also, while it is certainly true that there's probably no food that is either only good or only bad, I think one also has to ask the question, what exactly can be called food?
Are preservatives and all that stuff food? Is corn oil food? Is unfermented or otherwise not properly treated soy food?
@DML I do not have a formal physics background, and my first 'course' is a single theory and I don't quite understand all the terminology, but I have a background, although unfinished, in mathematics and biology. I would love to go back to school for physics though. Thanks for your corrections, and I am sure if I get a chance to pull out the material, you would have a more clear understanding and be able to explain better than I can. What I am studying is a theory from a soil physicist, Dr. Carey Reams. He discovered the theory of ionization while working with einstein.
@Cheif I don't eat pork. Haven't in well over a year, maybe two. It wasn't until this last year that I started to find out more, and really gain an understanding of why I would want to continue avoiding it. I don't allow it in my house in any form. In processed foods or not. That being said, should I get my health back. Should I become functional once again, it would be nice to allow myself a chicago deep dish pizza in the flavor I grew up completely in love with. Kind of as a "I kicked this illness square in the ass" celebration. At that point I would hope the energy loss would not affect me. I am emailing my course instructor for things on the frequency and what not for pork and those meats. Will forward it to you when I get it.
@Antonio It's funny you and I are on opposite sides of the same page. Religion sucks. it is the scourge of the planet. All the evils performed by man have been done in the name of religion. But I don't throw everything out, the good with the bad. I sift through and find what is valuable. I keep an open mind and heart. I am a woman, and was raised in a predominantly partriarcal church. I have seen shovanistic pricks abuse their wives in the name of God. I myself was pushed in that direction, to become a 'slave' for lack of a better word. For a while I was filled with hate, but I got over it. And I still find a lot of good in that religion. Any religion. I look for the good, and put all those peices together for myself and my family. Or try to at least. And you know what, it's brought a lot of peace and understanding. I agree completely though, that religion is shit, but that doesn't mean there is no value in learning from what has and will occur or be found.
And to top it all off, I don't care if others enjoy pork. Great. Eat shit loads. It seems though that when someone chooses not to eat a certain food, eveyone thinks it's funny, but you all have the same issues with some other food item. I don't care that others eat it. I simply choose not to. Pigs are incredibly intelligent animals. I used to have one! But there are many many many cultures who NEVER considered the pig as food, and I choose to do the same.
That being said, eat your pork and sausage, enjoy, and you prob will be fine. Just like my husband can drink a two liter of coke and seem to be fine. He is in much better health than I am. He never starved himself with veganism, so whatever.
and kosher rules say not to eat the fat off the animals. Butter is fine, but not the fat on the meat. It seems to me in this post matt is saying that the veggei oils are not so bad for us if not in excess, but that it is bad for us because of wha tthe animals turn it into and then we eat. Hmmm…
Antonio,
Do you think this is why people the anti-religious leaders like Mao and Stalin were so wonderful and benevolent?
Diet obssessives are no different that religious fundamentalists. They have their good and evil foods and they go around preaching to others to give up their sinful eating habits.
Religious people want it kosher, orthos want it free range, organic, or raw. Religious people pray over their food to purify it and the orthos ferment it.
The similarities are quite funny. It all comes from the same need to try and control what happens to themselves or others. One does it in the name of god and one does it in the name of health.
Do you ever preach to people about their diet and food choices?
@Erika "Religion sucks. it is the scourge of the planet. All the evils performed by man have been done in the name of religion."
That statement is complete nonsense. Communist Russia, the Vietcong, Pol Pot of Cambodia, are examples that demonstrate that man is very capable of great evil without religion. Your and Antonio's comments on religion are completely unbalanced. They fail to recognize in the slightest any of the good that religion has done and continues to do in the world. Mother Teresa is a good example of someone whose religious belief and conviction was the catalyst for the incredible amount of good she did in India. That is only one example, there are many, many others. There are plenty of people whose religious faith is a source of great joy, strength and provides the motivation to love and help others. The fact that this wasn't your experience doesn't imply that others haven't had a much different experience. This sight is not meant to debate religion, but I felt that I had to write something to counter the direction the last few comments were going in.
"I've been getting fresh pork and sausage every week from a neighboring organic pig farm, where the piggies gambol through woods all day, eating acorns and whatevs. It is some of the best damn food I ever ate.
When I'm on my death bed, I'll give a call and let you all know how it went."
This comment for the win! And can I go in on a pig with you?
Ian 2, I share your paranoia! I mostly keep my beliefs about food to myself (with the exception of this blog of course) for just that reason.
I never talk about religion or politics on the internets for just this reason. Aren't there enough divisive arguments about food and health for us?
Before I get caught up on the comments, I'm just going to share something on pork being "unclean"…
"There are marginally mundane reasons why agriculture took off in the way that it did in the Middle East. Among the local fauna, the sheep is particularly compliant — slower than the gazelle, possessed of a wonderful propensity to follow when led, and able to subsist on low-grade pasture.
"Marvin Harris of the University of Florida suggests that Jews were emphatically forbidden to eat pigs not in fact because pigs are "unclean" (although this is the reason given in Lev. 11:7) but because they need a lot of water and are also omnivores, requiring a varied diet. For desert people pigs would be an economic disaster. Sheep are the thing; able to get by on wisps of grass and browse (see Marvin Harris, Cows, Pigs, Wars, and Witches, New York: Random House, 1974)."
from "The Time Before History" by Colin Tudge (p. 274).
Basically, I think ancient cultures had a lot of rules coded up in religion. India used to consider the cow sacred (as in not to be eaten), and Vandana Shiva provides a convincing case there were solid economic and ecological reasons for this (see Stolen Harvest ch. 4: "Mad Cows and Sacred Cows").
I don't think you can just assume some ancient rules were about health. There could be any number of reasons.
You are right anon. That statement was a bit harsh. In my haste and frustration I left a lot out. I don't like religion for me.. That's not to say I don't take bits and pieces from them and am finding my own comfort.
What gets me is I post a reason as to why I choose to not eat pork, and because it doesn't jive with 'your' version of science, it's ridiculed. Well who effin cares! It's the same reason athiests and those of different religions argue and fight, cause no one can accept that some one else might think a different way.
Getting back to the topic of food, I! ME! MY FAMILY! We choose not to incorporate pork for reasons that we have found OUTSIDE of mainstream science and don't give a flying red rats rectum about whether others eat it or not. Or whether our reasoning comes from a book antonio thinks is rotten. I don't see it that way. And I don't believe all the 'rules' in religious texts are social, or whatever. i believe there are depper understandings that have been lost in translation. It has been retold and rewritten several times over.
I don't care who eats it or why!
Erika
Jenny – I love talking religion & politics, esp because most people are afraid to & there are taboos that prevent honest discussion about important issues.
all – When we are afraid to discuss the whole truth of a topic (the positive and negative), then people who make crazy talk dominate the datasphere with anti-animal & anti woman & child abusive religious rhetoric.
JT – your initial comment seems deliberately antagonistic, so I wont respond, but…
'orthos want it free range' –
I choose and support pasture farming because it is the only farming method that regenerates soil is sustainably produced (almost zero fossil fuels) and has deep respect for animals & local ecology and produces nutrient rich foods – it also preserves local communities & regional economic stability –> there is nothing 'ortho' about that…
but I agree that anyone can get carried away with anything.
I don't preach but I teach – there is a difference. Communicating w people who are interested (teaching) vs those who are not (preaching).
Erika – I don't doubt religion may bring peace to you or others, I typically don't comment on personal issues like that. I comment on the literature and how destructive it is to humanity – which most are happy to ignore or deny.
I'm a former theist, I lived in India and went to high school in Israel – so all you religious defenders take note and stop making assumptions about 'my experience' – my comments come from a deep history of theism.
I am well aware that there is some good which is why I didn't say religion was all bad, just most of it is, esp the bible and in particular Leviticus..
When people deny, defend or ignore half the story, this is a perfect demonstration of how religion is 'bad'.
anonymous
you may want to check out Hell's Angel – a documentary about the international fraud known as Mother Theresa. Also, a great book on this topic is Missionary Position by Christopher HItchens – I highly recommend it!
Antonio,
You need to reread your previous posts to see who has been deliberately antagonistic! I freely admit it was antagonistic, and it was because it seemed you were trying to divert attention away from the truth by trying to change the terms around to make it sound better. I used to do the same thing when people would confront me on my diet extremism. I couldn't believe these people calling me out couldn't just see that I am not extreme, I just value health.
It seems you may be trying to do it again by saying you are teaching not preaching juust because you say they are interested. Televangelists could say the same because they are reaching people who are interested so they are teaching not preaching.
Reminds me of many of the hardcore religious people I have known who claim they are spiritual not religious. Of course this sounds better.
It seems like you may have been a former religious person that has been let down by your former religious beliefs, so now you have transferred that religious fervor to dietary ideology. This is not too uncommon.
AaronF
Thanks for sharing.
My original comment stated that 'my understanding is that pork was considered 'unclean' first due to parasites from being farmed…'
not sure if I was clear, but was saying there are other reasons for religious laws being created, I didn't say that was the 'only' reason, but that would be one reason based not in religion, but for the health of people.
Cows are still considered sacred which is why they are allowed to roam freely in India, which is not good for ecology.
There are many other 'sacred' concepts invented by religion which are destructive to humanity, hence, my reason for sharing my comments on religion.
JT – I think you may have misunderstood my comments.
Also, no I was not 'let down' or whatever, I look objectively at the results of religion, which by and large are not good for humanity, in particular women & children.
I don't think I displayed any diet ideology. I simply defended the pig from being demonized by religion.
Antonio, there are many nations native to north america (first nations) we are as different from one another as the irish and armenians are.
It all depends if your friends are traditional or not. Many natives ( think 70 %) don't speak their language and because of this have broken the chain of knowledge being passed down. Even more disturbing is a movement of Pan-nativism where one type of music is seen as native and bannock ( white flour and water) and fried balogna is the most native food possible. I have seen algonquins that eat bear but given that they and the innu or eyyou ( cree) have similar origins and they don't eat it, it is most likely forgotten knowledge.
You have it right I am wyandot, wyandotte or wendat however you decide to spell in in english. the french called us huron which interestingly enough given the topic of discussion comes from the word Hure, old french for uncultured savage from an old word for boar ( I think the idea is they compared our spikey "mohawk" hair to a boar's head).
Haha Christopher Hitchens. If you're an atheist, then yes, you'll probably LOVE Christopher Hitchens because he's telling you what you want to hear; what jives with you; he's PREACHING to the chorus (by your own definition– certainly you can't think too many of us are interested in your anti-religion speak)
He's also ridiculous. Mother Theresa needs no justification for petty miracles/claims to petty miracles. She has done too many great things for so many people that most of the world has turned a blind eye to/left for dead.
As for evil, Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, Idi Amin, etc. All atheist (Hitler was actually into mysticism but not God). It doesnt matter in the least to me what some exploitationist does in the name of my God. God knows their heart. Pizarro slaughtered thousands of Inca for gold, not God. Crusades were fought on the promise of land, not for God. U.S. went into Iraq for OIL not because they're part of the "axis of evil." Wake up; nothing about the bible encourages evil. It merely is brutally honest about the evil that is so prevalent.
I dont care what any of you think about religion/the bible/Leviticus. Jesus is the Lord, the only way to salvation from judgment, and the the only way to eternal life. Every one of you will bow at some time, whether joyfully or begrudgingly.
The whole thing about this world is that there is pain, strife, discomfort, sadness, dysfunction, and frustration (even in the Kitavans!).
Read Timothy Keller's Reason for God. I recommend it.
-Josh
antonio, cont.
We (wyandots) are iroquois and it's an iroquois belief among all iroquois people that bears carry medicine and are meant for a purpose other than eating. there are also explanations about how they are similar to humans (omnivores) like pigs and that's where I derived my first reasons to not eat them from.
I am not a cannibal even if humans have fat and protein and most likely vitamins I would not consider cooking it up with Fava beans and chianti. I am open to both sides of the debate but unfortunately I am yet to find any unique benefits of pork other than people saying bacon goes on everything….
traditionally speaking bear is eaten in extreme cases of survival ( i assume like the book Alive ) I have not seen it in my lifetime I've only heard of it. As is true with the innu/eeyou of james bay who I have many friends among them. A special ceremony and special cooking preparations must be done to the meat in an attempt to lessen the bad things in it but it is generally told to be avoided as a better solution.
As for boar I have never seen one in the woods and I don't know of a word for boar in iroquois so I think they must have been brought here.( we have a word for pig but it is recent because they are all over the place and we have to call em something lol)
anyone interested:
I'm not a preachy guy but if you benefit from some of the things i say Im glad. If you enjoy pork than enjoy it to it's fullest as I have sen a happy life produce better results in overall health in most people than most everything else combined.
In my training and advising of people I have found things that work across the board in ALL people.
They concepts might be hard to swallow for some.
Although I never cared to try to isolate variables dietarily speaking, in my recommendations to avoid pork, dairy, white flour, veggie oils, sugar and all things made in labs or factories has the effect of making one impervious to any dietary cause of fat gain regardless of the number of calories consumed.
more interesting is some guys trying to gain muscle ask me " what gives I'm using your methods I'm getting no where " I tell them write everything you eat and for instance i say look here you ate pork chops on thursday to it they respond, "come on chief its only 2 pork chops and some bacon" I tell em try eliminating it like i suggested .. not 90 percent but 100 % and bam like magic all is well with them after. Perhaps its placebo Im not interested in bacon's success in popular culture enough to find out.
Do I have any fancy explanation with interluken 6 omega 6, inflammation, trichinosis sprinkled in for good measure ? or a study to quote about lab monkeys injected with bacon fat … no …but consistent results with many people speaks volumes.
Madmuhh,
Great point as well as your other one in the other post about ancient people knowing alot of things we are just beginning to understand. I see it all the time when i talk to old peeps.
Estelle, Merci
good rundown of the book I think I'll read it in french to avoid any lost in translation junk.
Deb, don't worry everyone loves talking bout boobies :) I just don't know much about menopause haven't ever been mauled by a cougar.
Erika , thank you I am eagerly looking forward to any geekish stuff you send me.
you gotta be careful on the internet . politics religion money and of course bacon!! are the four subjects you are most likely gonna make enemies and start a flame war :) … people love bacon so much I am surprised there is not an isolated essence of bacon yet. a sort of super MSG sweet, sour, bitter, salty, umami, bacon-ish
@ Chief
It may take a moment to dig out the explanations on pork, but the basics is it takes more energy to digest pork than we can get out of it. You cannot GAIN from pork. You may be able to get away with it if your diet is sufficient elsewhere, but cannot GAIN. That is probably what you are seeing.
@Josh
You are totally correct, and this is the conclusions I came to. The religion I was raised dort of in but more around, there were terrible things. And I was angry. But as I grew out of my selfcenteredness, I realized it wasn't what the church taught, but rather how it was taken and sometimes twisted by men to suit their fancy.
Antonio, I am a woman, and I have been in an abusive situation, and know plenty of others who have as well. I was angry. But I got over it, because that was one man. One man who took a wrong understanding of what was taught. The man I married, is still of the same religion, but entirely different. Women are to be protected. it's' not that we are less, just different. I've been there with the feminism bs, but honestly, I like this better. It's peaceful. Change the men who abuse their power. And they do that in or out of a religion.
@Josh again
Thanks for your input, but I think it best to ignore people who think they have such a good understanding when in fact they don't. Antonio sounds like he is championing women, when in fact I am the woman, and don't need it. It's not all religion is bad. It's how what is taught is perceived, or even how principles are taught. There is the human element, and in that, there is always flaw. You have to find God, the greater conciousness, whatever whoever wants to term it as, inbetween the human element.
@ Chief again
How do you work with people? I am regaining weight, and overeating, it's coming on pretty quick. Like I have gained a solid 5 to 6 pounds already minus water weight in a week and a half maybe? I need to pull out of this starvation anorexia, and fix my high bg issues, but am a bit nervous it won't stop. I have read some stories about anorexics recovering only to have IR and PCOS and all this stuff. They of course go the standard route of stuff sugar and weight gain in the face of the malnourished, but still. I worry. My pre starvation weight was 145 and I am up to 136 now despite rotten hormonal sleep issues, being really hot all the time instead of cold, and all the refeeding symptoms.
Chief – I should have said 'some nations' – I'm aware that there are many nations w different traditions. I've been interested in native & indigenous intuitive dietary wisdom & hunting rituals for sometime.
I was curious of taboos of Iroquois, Huron or northeastern/canadian nations & eating bear, I know grizzly bear is valued as a valuable resource by some nations
Yeah pig is an imported animal, was also curious if you had any insight, I didnt know that about the history of the Huron name, so thanks for sharing …
Interesting, I first heard about NA food taboos differing between nations from the film Natural Born Killers … in the film, there is a short scene where Russell Means appears in someone's dream or LSD trip I think, picks up a rattlesnake and some NA peeps criticized that is was against tradition…
I watched this yrs back when I was transitioning from veg*n to eating ethical meat, so I got interested in which nations have animal taboos (or not) & native methods & rituals for hunting
Not sure why you brought up cannibalism though …
Josh, thanks for missing the point :)
Antonio, it would be great if "honest debate" about religion or politics ever happened, but what usually happens is that people dig in deeper on their side of things until they get mad and leave or everyone else leaves because it's boring.
Antonio,
In what way do you think I misunderstood your comments?
You have done more than defend pigs, and I agree with you on that. My issue was your defense of orthorexia by trying to redefine it as valuing health. Because of this I assumed you probably adhered to some dietary ideology as well, and wanted to justify it as being healthy.
Chief & Anthony,
Regarding the Native American attitude towards pigs. I think the pig was viewed negatively when it was first introduced by the Europeans. They multiplied rapidly in the Americas, running wild and destroying the traditional Native American crops. The pigs were threatening the survival of some of these tribes by competing for the same food sources. They can also become very aggressive in the wild.
Josh – 'The whole thing about this world is that there is pain, strife, discomfort, sadness, dysfunction, and frustration'
Sounds like you need to get out more and let loose … maybe go salsa dancing or something. ;-)
Erika – I am not championing anything or anyone, you missed the point.
…and I didn't mention feminism
Y'all are defensive and missing the point – a conditioned response of people who defend or apologize for religion instead of honestly examining & acknowledging the damaging results that come from it.
'Change the men who abuse their power. And they do that in or out of a religion.'
Yes and the ones in religion are not abusing their power, they are genuinely & simply following the orders of their holy book, 'inspired' by a fictitious god who hates women, children and native/indigenous peoples.
Those are the words from the good book – not ANYONE'S interpretation – written by men, not women, who demonize menstrual cycles & childbirth and consider children 'born sinners' who are in need of some type of forgiveness …
as well as men who force their children to undergo barbaric genital mutilation & inflict psychological torture with bullshit concepts like heaven (reward) & hell (punishment) and therefore live in fear & subordination to an imaginary authority figure
Interpretation is not necessary for those that have actually read/studied the bible. This is why atheists know more about the bible than religious peoples, because they came to their conclusion AFTER studying it extensively.
Note for anyone paying attention to the 'dialogue that wasn't there' – that would be the first time I mentioned 'atheism' … and notice how one simple comment (supporting the idea of NOT demonizing animals) brings up a shit ton of personal issues being projected….
Now back to the topic I think… originally was something about not demonizing food, staying balanced and enjoying life, I'd conclude if you eat pork, enjoy it, get pastured pork or wild boar. If not, don't eat it, either way don't sweat it.
but if you bring up religion and expect everyone to agree or stay quiet, your delusional.
peace out
antonio
Josh, I think the misunderstanding is here: 'orthorexia by trying to redefine it as valuing health.'
I didn't do that, or maybe I wasn't clear enough, I was saying people like us value health and are not orthorexic,
although some would label us with a condition if we appreciate food more so than a normal person who doesnt really value health/food.
Does that make sense? I think we actually agree, but may have misunderstood that point.
…and I hope you see my smile in my last comment to you
Thanks matt. So I guess it is just a matter of eating food and waiting for my bacteria to re-populate. Nothing else I can do to help speed that up??
ONe thing I think that was holding me back is that I was taking mirilax every night per a GI's orders. Worked at first but then I started feeling worse. I did some research and found out the PEG in it is basically a bacteria killer lol, so it was essentially making it impossible to establish any long term good guys. I am off that for a few weeks now and actually feeling better. I have also ben doing 0.5-1 gram of magnesium a day to help keep things soft/smoother, but could that be doing the same thing? I know too watery of an environment is obviously bad for gut colonization as diarrhea essentially clean out all the bacteria.
for the rs3 salad can lentils work in place of teh beans??
Antonio
I said I didn't eat pork for reasons outside of mainstream 'research.' And pointed out that perhaps the people of biblical time knew something we didn't. You are the one who dragged the whole argument out. It's people like you that cause the problems. It's comments like what you make that anger people and cause them to defend themselves. If you want an open and honest debate, ask questions instead of attack. Learn to be human. So far from what I have learned about you, you sound no better than the arrogant pricks I knew who were religious zealots. They thought they knew everything cause they read the bible, or whatever religious text they followed. You are the same, in your own religion. You say the same things. Putting a woman down for saying what she thought. Hmmmm….
Erika
SP: It's truly awesome that you've made "Straining Pooper" your official handle. Should make comments on other blogs lots of fun.
Lentils have resistant starch too. Should be fine.
Erika,
Yes i think that might be the case as I tell people avoiding my list of foods can be a temporary thing if they so desire to recover and they can choose to eat a little of it here n there without being paranoid they are gonna turn into the next walter hudson after they get their health in order. I also personally do a cheat day eating almost anything every once and a while because it has phycological as well as body chemistry benefits.
to answer your question one of the many things ( Im a busy body) I do is consultations for weight loss and exercise/training education. sometimes in the gym sometimes at peoples houses for as long as a month at times. I also go around from reservation to reservation speaking about drugs, suicide, diabetes, violence, bullying, success etc. thats pretty much what I do as far as working with people directly.
JT,
It might have originally been hated for those reasons but it quickly became quite the same as hawaiian natives people "why you beef with pork bra " lol sadly the health statistics are nearly identical though.
coincidence i think not….
Antonio-
I'm not here to debate you about the book I know well or about God. I just enjoy the blog/blog comments. Have no qualms or misunderstandings with whatever you think about orthorexia. Just dont think you can use the blog as a podium for your anti-bible diatribe without me, and others, acknowledging the greatness of God.
SP : I as well loved seeing the name :)
Antonio,
I mentioned cannibalism because pigs and bears are like humans to me and to express the idea that I don't consider pork food just like I don't literally eat "three sisters". Human bodies when eaten might contain nutritional elements as well as corn oil, pork, rats and and kitty cats may be listed as having nutritional elements but it does not necessarily make them food. Lots of things can be digested but are not optimal.
from what I understand, those animals are not properly digested by our bodies. I don't think the notion that the south eating so much of it and having poor health is such a far off link.
Just cause I don't consider these animals edible doesn't mean I have no respect for them. Pigs are highly inteligent. So are dogs. I don't consider dogs food. I like the way you put it cheif.
Great article Matt, I think back to my childhood and think of all the vegetable oil, sugar, and other refined garbage and it amazes me that I never had any allergies or allergic reactions to anything, but it caught up to me when I was in college in the form of fatigue and digestive issues. I have since given up fast food and the majority of restaurant food to give myself time to heal with whole, nutritious foods.
I had finals for college a week ago and I was pressed for time for that and my job, and I can tell you that having to settle for gas station food a few times was enough to cause a few problems. But hey, I finally graduated and celebrated by eating an entire crock pot full of some chicken and wild rice soup, and I thought of you and everyone on the blog while I chowed do
Thanks for writing!
"Although I never cared to try to isolate variables dietarily speaking, in my recommendations to avoid pork, dairy, white flour, veggie oils, sugar and all things made in labs or factories has the effect of making one impervious to any dietary cause of fat gain regardless of the number of calories consumed."
Thoughts on raw dairy? or is it dairy in general you avoid?
Also, thoughts on fat loss? Getting frustrated with my RRARF/overeating gains :( :( I"m sure I'm not the only one!
Anon ….(grr damn no name brands ) all dairy except on cheat days …for me personally its rare even on cheats… it goes through me like 50 packs of exlax i have not had much experience with raw dairy but i suspect it is not much different.
overeating does not exist … the only reason weight gain occurs is due to a starvation response
my thoughts on your fat loss problems are simple.
1.) stress mismanagement, 2.) one of the 6 deadly venoms mentioned above (food culprits)3.) perhaps a minimal stimuli from exercise is missing (a lil' acute stress is good),4.) lack of proper rest,5.) lack of proper nutrition, or finally 6.) subconsciously you want to be fat.
runner up … you live in some sort of ghetto cuz fat cooties are contagious and ghettos are a breading ground for fatties ..:)
haha thanks chief. got it. i'm not quite a fatty just a bit too fat for me. i think it's numero uno and "starvation" rebound response. it just SUCKS!
also i eat dairy/some sugar. tryna cut it out because it makes my asthma worse, but it's everywhere! anyhow…. i don't live in the ghetto (A+ for PC comments!) and it looks like i can handle the other 6-7 things. wish they made pills for patience. or for not caring aobut my f***ing body!
Chief
What about fruit and insulin resistance or hypoglycemia or both really? I know some are against it, but I notice many eat it as well…
These comments are giving me an itchy oozing rash, right near my left butt check.
I must be experiencing inflammation.
FRUITY ANON ,
I think certain food that are perceived as causing trouble can be used to stimulate the body into better operation such as the case is with fruit. I personally eat it on an empty stomach and give it some time to move through the digestive track before overlapping a bunch of other stuff in the mix. ??certain "fruits" are actually super badass for kickin IR in the ass such as blueberries. ?I usually don't eat fruit more than once a week maybe twice but It mostly because of availability. every once and a while I do a fruit binge and eat fruit for days in a row. I do eat a large amount of veggies though.
All BLOGAHOLICS ANONYMOUS
Please get names its funner … I don't care if its "leaky pooper" or "god is my shepherd" or "gold tooth gangsta grills" or even "chief sux "
keeping track of the anons around here is like fighting a ninja in the dark.
DEB
I would get that checked, might be "sitting at the computer too long" ass rash
i'm the asthmatic anon that posted a bit ago.
chief, i'm sure you've already been asked this, but what meats do you eat? how often and do you get special kinds like organic, etc.
anyone: insight into things that improve asthma? mine is awful these days but i can't pinpoint what it could be since i've relaxed my dietary restrictions per matt's "eat the food" advice…. cutting out sugar/wheat as much as possible though
one more thing. has anyone experienced orange palms from eating too many sweet potatoes, carrots, and/or pumpkin? people keep telling me i look tan… and today i realized my palms are ORANGE!
Hmmmm… No to the orange. In fact, I am less yellow. And I have been downing POUNDS of yams.
lil wheezy,
I hunt a lil somethin somethin…I eat deer and moose alot turkey, goose and duck and beaver a bit a little buffalo I eat alot of fish. I try to know the source as much as possible. at restaurants I eat beef and sometimes chicken I don't trip out too much about it but i try to get organic as much as i possibly can I don't ask people that invite me over for supper if they are sure its organic and putt up a stink or anything. I look at it like matt does … extra credit
prolly 3 to 4 times a week i eat meat or fish on average … sometimes its more sometimes its not at all. I go all out on beans though regardless. I feel strongly that meat is not a complete necessity and you could easily get away with a once a week thing perhaps even not at all it just takes more organization. I can say for sure that body building is possible without meat.
about fake tanning
i have peeled alot of carrots over and over and noticed the beta caretene absorbs into the palms .. it can make your skin a little orangee
Wheezy, orange you glad that it's just your palms and not your face/rest of your body? lol sorry I had to bust out the dumb joke, too much beta carotene perhaps?
@Wheezy, unfortunately I am also a victim of beta-carotenation and bear the battle tints of overindulgence in carrot, punkin & sweet taters. Friends comment on my golden glow, and I sometimes have to take a few days off from chowing down on the sunny vittles to get my hands and feet back down to a semi-normal shade.
Not sure why it happens to some folks and not others.
I read somewhere that hypothyroidism may cause skin to turn orangy…It seems there is a problems in betacarotene convertion.
Anyone knows something about it?
@Chief, I read a report from one guy who ate bear meat and found that it made him feel very aggressive. Which makes me wonder if there really is something in bear meat which is a problem for humans to consume.
@Everybody: I believe the reason why pigs are considered "unclean" is that they are genetically similar to humans, and it's easier to pick up parasites from them. Same deal with eating human flesh, real easy to get diseases from that. Do NOT do what Hannibal Lecter did in "Hannibal" and eat another human's brain raw, you will get prion diseases from that.
Erika's example of the physicist who reckons that the atoms in pigs are somehow different to the atoms in other animals is an example of the danger putting trust in authority, especially if you don't know enough about the field to criticise their arguments. The fact the guy worked with Einstein doesn't matter. Highly intelligent people are often more vulnerable to believing completely wacky ideas than normal people, because they tend to be "neophiles", attracted to new ideas. I'm sure Erika does get sick from eating pork, but I'm equally sure it's got nothing to do with the "frequency" of the pig. It must have some other cause.
Hey TGRaham.
I saw in a past comment you thought that digestive enzymes with senna in it helped fix your colon? How could this be though? Doesnt senna normally cause dependency, and eventually a slow/unresponsive colon? Do you still use them?
Also, how many cals had you been eating doing the RRARF.
I have been eating 3000 cals most days of the week, with one o two days where I eat a little less for a break. I dont know if it just isnt enough to kick things into gear or what….
Tezza,
maybe that bear eating could be true.
I have read that a stressed animal in a farm can hold in some of that and pass it along to the meat somehow.
In hunting techniques we are taught to minimize stress and comfort the dying animal and not kill them in slow agonizing ways or spook em prior to a kill and so on so this can relate a bit to the bear comment.
also in regards to frequency
It's easy to discredited things based on current consensus. Sometimes not having an open mind can keep learning restricted. Keep in mind that the study of quantum physics is slowly proving a lot of the "woo woo" shit to actually be very true.
not saying I have made an opinion on the ramifications of "pork frequency" but I am going to at least hear it out.
Matt –
Super-interesting post and overwhelming comments! I really appreciate you keeping the heat on this omega-6/arachidonic acid inquiry.
My favorite sect of Ancient Greek Philosophers that I studied were the Pyrrhonian Skeptics, who noted that for any theory–and any cultural practice, for that matter–that was espoused by someone, you would soon enough find the opposite being espoused with equal vehemence and volume of 'proof' somewhere else, and so their philosophical position was of a life of endless inquiry, and of 'suspending balance' as to what the real truth might be. Your examination reminds me of that somewhat.
Since I was well on the way to demonizing nuts and seeds as a result of some of this (and valorizing the almighty coconut, which I already do), I'm especially appreciative of the balance.
However: and here maybe I'm caught in the snare of unrepentant lean-obsession (and I am wading through your Bacon cliff notes too)–aside from the whole inflammation response question, wasn't one of Ray Peat's charges against _all_ PUFAs, both omega 6 and 'good' omega 3's, that they _slow metabolism_, whereas the sat fats help to keep it high?
If I can raise my superslow recovering-anorexic-anorexic's-worst-nightmare metabolism by going gung-ho on the coconut and leaving the nuts and seeds, even the flax and chia I'm usually so into, I'll gladly do so!
Your thoughts on that after a year of self-experimentation?
thanks,
Ela
Ela
I was just thinkin if you are in alaska the cold can be a good stimulator of metabolic rate. it upgrades your heater to keep you warm, but you gotta eat girl!
AaronF wrote:
"I don't think you can just assume some ancient rules were about health. There could be any number of reasons."
Did anyone ever follow the old Anthropik site? There were a few article on this topic.
JT wrote:
"Religious people pray over their food to purify it and the orthos ferment it."
While you're not pigeonholing everyone's food preferences, maybe have a think about that statement – it just doesn't make sense.
Chief wrote:
"… i have not had much experience with raw dairy but i suspect it is not much different."
Chief, maybe you should give it more of a go – they are two totally different things. From an interview with Rod Schmid by Acres USA:
ACRES U.S.A. People are more or less getting a nostalgia product, a cold white liquid to remind them of milk?
SCHMID. Yes, that would be accurate. It’s sort of like the difference between wheat grown in the fields and a Twinkie.
ACRES U.S.A. It’s not as durable as Twinkies, though. It won’t last on the shelf for months and months.
SCHMID. That’s right. But it’ll kill you just as fast.
—–
I know that I don't do well on pasteurised dairy at all (painful cramps and wind, mucous), but am fine on raw.
Ian2.
"Ian 2, I share your paranoia! I mostly keep my beliefs about food to myself (with the exception of this blog of course) for just that reason."
Jenny, I like to think it's not paranoia, but it probably is… although I don't think it's too far off what's probably already happening.
I also try to keep my food beliefs/choices to myself as I find it evokes reactions like no other subject, even religion… and I just can't be stuffed explaining or defending (which I've come to realise is just pleading, really) my choices any more.
Are you still making stock? I haven't done it for almost 2 months now, and feeling the lack.
Ian2.
Chief mention the placebo effect. Made me think of this article:
"Placebos work, even when patients are in the know, study finds"
http://www.latimes.com/news/science/la-he-placebo-effect-20101223,0,3010085.story
excerpt:
In what researchers call a novel 'mind-body' therapy, most patients in a study suffering from irritable bowel syndrome reported relief after receiving pills they were told contained no real medicine.
Ian2.
Ian 2,
when i was a an early teen i had some unadulterated, right out the boob, cow juice for a few days. It had the same "kick me in the stomach/can't find a toilet fast" enough effect.
as far as isolating it as a variable for my clients, i tell them this is what works. if you want to try raw dairy if it effects you or isolate variables and see which of the foods are a problem for you after you heal your self, go for it. I don't have any need to do so, the system works like i said even if it's the placebo effect.
I personally never liked the taste of milk so I have no real desire to solve that issue, I grew up eating anything and everything out of survival ( and I like ice cream even if it does not like me lol ) Dairy was mixed into a lot of stuff a little bit would not have a massive effect on me but a full glass of milk cuts through me like x rays.
"I know that I don't do well on pasteurised dairy at all (painful cramps and wind, mucous), but am fine on raw."
Yes, and there are people who have trouble with raw and do better on pasteurised. This issue once again demonstrates the complexity of how different individuals respond to the same food, and how there is no "one size fits all" solution.
Chief,
Fair enough – no need to eat things you don't like.
FWIW, I had that "kick me in the stomach/can't find a toilet fast" thing for a little while on it after I switched to raw. It went away after a while, I presume because digestive bacteria adapted.
I a for few months earlier in the year where I didn't consume any raw at all, and when I started again, I had another brief "liquid movement" stage.
I imagine it's like people who don't eat any fat for ages and lose the ability to process it when they start again. Happened to a housemate a while ago – she went for about 6 months with no meat or fat, and when she got to Brazil, she fasted up and was unable to digest any of it.
Anyway, like I said, I'm not pushing or anything. I know it's good for me, and that's enough. Only you know how you feel.
Ian2.
I wrote, "she fasted up and was unable to digest any of it."
I meant to write, "feasted up", as in ate.
Ian2.
"… the system works like i said even if it's the placebo effect"
For a while, I've wondered about the placebo effect, especially in cases such as in the article in linked to where the patients know that they're being given a placebo.
I wonder if it's just that some kindness (or even just attention) is being shown to the body? Sometimes that's more important than anything.
Ian2.
IAN2,
thats all possible but at this point i don't think it's placebo due to unexplained things such as spontaneously waking up 2 or more hours earlier feeling fully rested which was not an intended goal upon devising my original plan.
the fact that so many of my friends do poorly on dairy and scientist say 90 % of natives ( and asians and africans ) do not posses the ability to break it down properly make it seem like a bad idea to temp fate. maggot cheese is popular in europe, i wont eat it most people would question it.
It's funny that people do not question things that are popular such as milk or bacon. To me even though i experiment with it because I want to help people, I still think its weird that people drink from the boob of a cow.
I experiment with it in very short periods of time because I know that blasting my intestines out is not a good idea for gut flora.
Hey Chief,
I wasn't implying that I think your system is based on any sort of placebo effect – your mention of the word simply made me think of that article. I don;t believe that everything can be explained away as "all in the mind." The fact is that we are real, physical beings in this physical world and things have physical effects on us.
And I must admit that I still sometimes feel a bit funny drinking some other species' liquids… it's just that once it hits your lips, it's so good!
(ref. in case you haven't seen Old School: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7SuY3T_U6c)
Ian2.
no worries lol
and no i didn't see it lol
Hey Chief–interesting thought about the cold stimulating metab: I'd wondered about that myself (and have made some misguided underdressed excursions trying to burn more calories lol).
I lived in HI before I moved to AK, and I don't know that my metabolism is higher here than there: I was the most physically active I've been when I lived there (too much so for my body, actually) and went through all kinds of diet experiments (it was there that I did the crazy and destructive Aajonus diet that messed everything up; I arrived there a long-time no-fat near-fruitarian).
Recent am body temp measurements have come in around 95 or 96, so pretty stinking.
Out to jump in the cold!
Ela
I suggest if you are trying to up the metabolism with cold to give it a good sized meal to go with it.
it will cause you to burn more calories and as long as you don't restrict it will produce an increase in metabolic rate. Just like with weight training you must eat to get results. restricting will only be counter productive its like expecting a fire to burn better with more oxygen yet adding no wood..
Matt,
I think this AA stuff is a bit nonsense, since tissue levels of AA max out at very low intakes of linoleic acid. RBC levels might vary with diet, but most tissue levels are highly regulated. That said, excess linoleic acid replaces tissue DHA with n-6 DPA, which ordinarily is not present significantly in tissues, and I think this compromises the resolution of inflammation.
Chris
1) Reading Brian Peskin’s work and meeting him about 5 years ago is one of the reasons
that I have never jumped fully on the Raytard bandwagon. The studies that Ray quotes are
always based on *rancid* PUFA which behaves qualitatively differently than biologically intact
PUFA. When I look at Revici’s work, or Peskin’s research, or even Johanna Budwig, who was a PhD fats researcher, they all suggest an important structural role for PUFA in the cell wall for proper oxidation. Looking at Revici’s anabolic/catabolic work in regard to the ingestion of saturated fats, cholesterol, or PUFA is enlightening.
Peskin is the ONLY person I know about who stresses “quality” as the definitive issue with ALA and LA ingestion. Almost all commercial PUFA is rancid.
2) Blaming AA is silly and doesn’t make a lot of sense as most – at least European diets – have always had a bunch of it. It doesn’t explain the exponential increase in these diseases lately.
3) I’m not a fan of the GAPS diet, but her theory on gut wall issues does far more to explain these modern epidemics then blaming AA. There could be a case for LA consumption which has increased in quantity and is of poor quality.