I’m quite pleased that my friend DaNelle Wolford, my guest on the most recent episode of the 180DegreeHealth podcast,?is on the cover of this month’s issue of Woman’s World, one of the most prominently-displayed magazines in the entire country. On the cover it says “Cheat your way slim and fit into a size 6! DaNelle lost 35 lbs eating fat-melting cake, brownies, potatoes, mac ‘n cheese and lasagna.” Inside is a featured article?on how she was able to lose weight without dieting?and some recipes from her book, Have Your Cake and Lose Weight Too!
I am quoted in the book itself, so I guess I’m pretty awesome.
The book is a testimony?to the power of eating what you want, when you want, and as much as it takes to satisfy your appetite. That’s exactly what DaNelle did, and sure enough, it resulted in spontaneous, effortless weight loss. How is this possible?
In the weight loss and fitness industry, combining fat and carbohydrates, particularly in a hyperpalatable package such as cake or mac n’ cheese, is considered to be the most fattening of all combinations. I can see why they believe this to be true. If you are used to restricting your food intake, intentionally reducing calorie consumption, and depending upon low-grade energy shortage in order to lose or even maintain your body weight–switching to eating calorie-dense, tasty foods can be quite fattening.
For a while.
Put more simply, going from restricted to unrestricted results in temporary fat gain pretty consistently.
But a funny thing happens when you don’t restrict your diet for an extended period of time. Most people will experience their food cravings disappear and their metabolic rate rise. Before too long, body weight reaches the point of equilibrium.
The prevailing mainstream belief is that weight is a simple matter of how many calories you consume and how many calories you burn. While this may be true to some extent, it often ignores the power of the body’s natural energy regulating systems. The fitness industry also seems okay with its recommendations being “hard.” No pain no gain right? Being hungry is acceptable, exercising when you don’t feel like it remedied by “motivation,” and fighting cravings with “willpower” par for the course. However, the powerful physiological processes behind hunger, cravings, and fatigue are shown repeatedly to?make dieting an?ineffective long-term strategy. We can suffer for a while, but eventually we obey the body’s signals. Those with remarkable willpower and discipline often don’t fare much better, regaining weight that was forced off even while continuing to eat and do “the right thing.”
If forced weight loss via restriction were effective, it would be one thing. Sure, it works for many when you are actively suppressing those hunger pangs and cravings, but eventually most will falter. If most falter, then it’s not a particularly good strategy for losing weight and keeping it off. For most it’s just unnecessary physical and mental turmoil that gets them nowhere–and in many cases does serious physical and psychological damage.
Before we discuss DaNelle’s route to losing weight effortlessly and keeping it off, it’s probably safe to say that most people won’t lose weight and keep it off trying to follow her path religiously either. The difference is that it’s easy to do, much more sustainable, much healthier on a multitude of levels, and it might still result in substantial weight loss. At the very least, it’s almost guaranteed to result in achieving weight stability without gaining or losing weight, for the vast majority of people. Being able to do that without ever being hungry or performing unwanted exercise is pretty cool. More people should know about it. That’s why I keep on keepin’ on, and why I am feverishly celebrating DaNelle’s feature article and cover appearance.
So how did DaNelle lose the weight, and what other types of weight loss strategies can she compare this one to? She tried low-carb, low-fat, a 30 day juice fast, and raw veganism. She fared very poorly on all of those, not just in terms of losing weight, but she felt terrible. Her metabolic rate was low enough to feel freezing cold all the time in Arizona. Not exactly Siberia, but it felt like it to her. And she lost the weight by making “real food” versions of all her favorite foods, eating a nutritious, mixed diet to her heart’s content–almost?exactly what was advocated in the original version of my book Diet Recovery.
That’s it. Sorry, no bells and whistles there. It may sound too good to be true, but this happens all the time–especially for those who are willing to follow through and eat to appetite, focus on other basics of self care like sleep and stress reduction, and do so consistently over the long-term. I get reports from individuals?of it taking one, two, and even three years before weight starts coming off spontaneously, but it can and does happen quite frequently.
Read DaNelle’s book or download mine (it’s free) for more reading on the subject of metabolism and eating intuitively for both health and even, on occasion, substantial weight loss.
Better yet, listen to DaNelle and I discuss this and more in the latest episode of the 180DegreeHealth podcast HERE.
About the Author
Matt Stone is an independent health researcher, author of more than 15 books, and founder of 180DegreeHealth. He is best known for his research on metabolic rate and its central role in many health conditions as well as his criticisms of extreme dieting. Learn more by signing up for his free Raising Metabolism eCourse HERE,?which also includes?THIS FREE BOOK, and subscribing to the 180DegreeHealth podcast HERE.
Hi Matt
I really need to keep hearing the success stories and to have the new idea reinforced. This esp v helpful:
‘ a funny thing happens when you don?t restrict your diet for an extended period of time. Most people will experience their food cravings disappear and their metabolic rate rise. Before too long, body weight reaches the point of equilibrium.’
I am at the point of weight having been gained, food cravings disappearing and am now waiting, pretty patiently and in trust! For the metabolism to stabilise and maybe for the weight to reduce a little. Increasingly aware how complex and sensitive the hormonal systems are, so patience does seem to be the key virtue.
I greatly appreciate your work, thank you
This is me too. I’m 2 years into this process of not dieting anymore. My obsession with food has gone
And food is now a side issue to be honest. I eat what I want when I’m hungry and to be honest my eating pattern had developed into 3 squares a day with maybe a bit chocolate or a bag of crisps in the evening of I feel like it. So there’s not an unreasonable amount of food there and I’m not depriving myself. I’m no longer a tearful, exhausted ice maiden and enjoy a bit of the old ‘slap and tickle’ with hubby now (unlike before). I exercise fairly regularly (swimming and spinning) by doing what I like to do. So I’m patiently waiting now for some of this excess 50lbs to budge. To be honest I’ve had many days where I believe that my body just doesn’t want to be slim and I’m gonna be the big girl on the block forever (maybe my severe restrictive periods of dieting has damaged me forever) but this has given me faith again that the process actually works. Maybe it’s gonna take more than 2 years, I don’t know but one thing for sure is ill never diet again. I’ve got my life back and fat or slim this is much better than before
Diana Schwarzbein says it takes 7 years
And I nearly fell off my chair when The Lancet published some research that flew into the media as “Gradual weightloss no better than crash diets in the long term.” Their crash diet was 3-months long and their gradual diet was 9-months long. Why did they even bother, I have to wonder. “Diets don’t work” would’ve been a better headline, rather than basically condoning crash diets! I think they need a little 30 minute chat with Dr. Schwarzbein! It takes many years to get to an obese state so why is it so surprising that it takes many years to reverse it?
I can’t believe they still study dieting, especially straightforward calorie restriction, since we have multiple decades of research showing completely conclusive long-term ineffectiveness. It’s not even up for debate amongst obesity scholars. They moved on decades ago.
I had written Matt privately a while back. In 2012, I think, I had started re-gaining weight, after losing the baby weight. My metabolism was compromised. In early 2013 I began to refeed. All along I’d been doing one weight workout per week and walking. I gained about 15 pounds, about a pound a week, until my weight stabilized at beg of July 2013 at 199 pounds. I lost about 2 pounds, then In October I stopped breast feeding. In dec I tried karate for a few months. Since then the weight began to come off without any conscious attempt to eat less or modify my food choices. I eat about 3-4 times a day I cook much of my food and do eat pizza about once a week, bagels, etc. Not A ton of sweets. Primarily because I have no cravings and have total freedom. I am now down to 177.4 pounds. I’m almost in the same clothes I wore at 160. My stomach has not returned to normal. Sometimes I still look pregnant. In the last few months I increased cardio to about 15 minutes twice a week and continued with one weight session, plus slow walks. It’s a pretty sustainable lifestyle. I’m still “fat” by many standards, size 12-14. But my clothes are falling off. And I have zero mental anguish around food or eating. My husband is finally starting to notice the physical changes. It’s been about a year and six months so far, for the up and down. I’m below the weight at which I began my refeed.
Amanda, your comment is so encouraging! Thank you for including the time frame you’re working with! I re-fed for about 3 months intensely beginning February 2014. I gained about 40 lbs and a new zeal for life. During this time I have also completely lost my *obsession* with eating healthy. I now make most of our meals, and do pretty good at consistently feeding our family of 7 healthy varied meals each day, but no longer stress myself and everybody else out with my disapproval of anything remotely unhealthy! Everybody is so much happier and I have energy to spare. I no longer weigh myself so actually have no idea how much I weigh, but I am only up one size from when I started re-feeding. My stomach still looks like it’s pregnant most days, but some days it doesn’t :) I feel stronger and have more patience for our five children whom I homeschool. My blood sugars are a bit on the high side, but my cholesterol and tri-glycerides have gone down. I have started walking somewhat inconsistently, but as I have more energy, I am feeling more like being active. Yes I completely believe there is more to health than the scale, but I also believe that as my body becomes healthier, it will stop hanging onto the weight.
Thank you Matt and DaNelle for bringing this message to the masses!
Way to go Lisa! Glad you are feeling so good! The lack of stress around food is such an amazing benefit of this process. I should add I am 42, two kids, for those who may be in the middle aged group. I used to think I had a problem with compulsive overeating. I even joined a 12 step program for it! I was becoming orthorexic; forgoing a meal if I had no healthy options available. I now know it was the restrict-binge cycle that was really screwing with my head and body. I am no longer remotely compulsive about food, nor do I overeat. And I am much warmer. I can stay in tank tops when others wear jackets. I am so happy I had the patience to see this process through. It was really hard to gain weight with the refeed, but I had been gaining anyway. I can’t promise it will work for everyone, but I have seen many people having positive experiences both mentally and physically by eating the food.
Thanks Amanda :) I’ll be 41 in November – so I’m right there with you in the middle age category.
Hi Jennifer,
I just wanted to quickly share with you my story to encourage you!! ( I will make it quick !) Basically I was severely underweight, weighing 45kg at 172cm tall. When I wanted to get better and start eating more food, I started binging and went up to almost 90kg!! Oh the heart break!! When I found Matt Stones work, Eat for Heat, Diet Recovery etc., I was so scared to try what he was suggesting… But I did it, I stopped counting calories, I stopped exercising, I stopped weighing myself (threw the damn scales out), I stopped thinking a salad was the best meal for me, I started eating whatever I wanted. It took some time, it has been around 7 months since I stumbled upon his work and started to just RELAX. I don’t know how much weight I have lost because I do not weigh myself and I never will again – but I can tell you now photos tell a huge story and I have definitely lost weight with out even trying. Now days I do exercise (just when I feel like it and nothing too strenuous) and I also try eat a balanced diet – which includes pizza and chocolate. You will get there. SLEEP, EAT, REST, STRESS LESS.
Jennifer. I’m in the same boat- gained, cravings down, hoping to stabilize soon then lose! My functional med doc, Dan Kalish said that this can take 3-5 yrs for the body to adjust and not be worried about yet another famine. He thought I was way ahead of the curve it it’s only been a year and a half since I stopped dieting. I am trying to be patient too! :-)
I haven’t read here in quite a while, and I was curious to see how others were doing, so I decided to check in. Since my recovery journey began here, I thought I’d give an update on myself in order to add to the data, and possibly give a bit of hope to others who are struggling.
It’s good to see Matt mention a more accurate/realistic average time frame for weight loss/tapering. This is definitely what I am experiencing, and what I’ve seen for others. I think it’s important that people realize there’s a good chance it will take longer than people initially thought so that they don’t give up in frustration when nothing seems to be happening after a year, or so, into the process.
I started this process a little over 2.5 years ago, and only recently did the weight that I gained start to come off. I reached a point where I began to develop health problems, and it felt like my body was stuck as a result, a catch 22, if you will. It was really hard not to panic and revert to dieting in order to “help” turn my health back around, but I knew that would ultimately backfire, so I began taking supplements to help my body out, which helped tremendously. I was able to get my body unstuck, my health markers returned to normal, and my weight is going down.
I will continue to give updates on my blog (on the About page).
BTW, I’m in my 40s. I thought I’d add that in for those who might be wondering about the age factor.
Hi Matt,
I recently read your book Diet Recovery, and also Eat for Heat. I’m really afraid to start eating more because recently I gained about 7lbs after trying to eat “intuitively” (it turned into a huge binge streak about a month long, (after coming off a calorie restrictive diet) I literally could not stop eating until I was in pain) and I’m back trying to diet again. I feel like food is the only thing I live for and I spent most of my time thinking about macros and calories and how I could make all the possible combinations (If I eat less chicken at dinner then I can have 2 rice cakes WOW!) I’m not overweight but I have a high body fat percentage, like 22-25%. I just want freedom from food controlling me but I’m afraid that I’ll get really super fat if I follow the advice in the book. I’m 5’4, 115 lbs and I really feel that this is my limit or at least this fat percentage is my limit.
This does give me some hope but I’m afraid of my own appetite. It’s comforting to see that others have had success though; at the moment I’m still a total slave to food :-(
At 5’4″ you should be more like 130-150 pounds. Sounds like you’re mostly missing lean tissue. I would think the most sensible course of action considering the details you just shared would be to eat your face off, lift weights regularly and with purpose, and get a lot more light physical activity. Eat hard, play hard, sleep hard, repeat.
Your weight will go up, but you’ll probably look and feel steadily better throughout the journey, at quickly reach a point of much greater neutrality with eating.
Follow through on that for a year and get back to me.
well, i think this is bloody brilliant.
allow me to fling money in your general direction :D
I am still a big fan of yours too Matt. But I do hate to see you linked with something like “Woman’s World.” I wouldn’t even keep that in my bathroom as backup TP. You probably aren’t familiar with what is usually found in the 34 pages between the cover and the advert for mail-order cat-themed moo-moos on the back page, so I’ll enlighten you: it’s not usually people like DaNelle. 95% of the time the cover story involves losing X pounds in X days where X<<<<[fathomable.] Just eat pinto beans at every meal. Or cut out everything that's red. Or drink 2 liters of white vinegar a day. After they get through the 3 pagese they devote to their diet of the week they fill the rest with pictures of cake. Whatever. It's trash. Anyway sorry I went off there a minute. I just really hate that magazine. Glad to see a blog post from you regardless.
Oh sure. I think it was the first time I’ve ever bought a magazine while going through a checkout line. I dutifully made fun of Woman’s World on my podcast with DaNelle, too, and how they cheeseified it and cheapened it with scammy weight loss slogans. But don’t worry. They are a magazine. I doubt there will be many magazines left a decade from now. I don’t know who reads any magazine really. They are all collectively one giant advertisement. If you get sick of watching spammy commercials, buy a magazine! Hate ’em all.
i like those magazines. they comfort me. they are filled with shiny goodness :P
of course most of it is trash. who cares ? its fun.
ive been telling some of my women friends (yes the ones who read those magazines and follow all the diets) about your diet Matt and most of em have perked right up and written your name down.
you might think they are stupid but i think way too much, their houses are cleaner than my house and i actually envy them sometimes.
be a snob if you want, but who is winning ?
I’ve just scanned the preview of the book on Amazon.com and the premise seems to be, more-or-less, “Eat what you want, as long as you use ‘good’ ingredients.”
The paradox, in my mind, is DaNelle writing about using the “real food” and “traditional food” that have “…nourished people literally for thousands of years, and is something your ancestors would recognize.”
Okay, I think I get it.
But, she also writes: “What if I said you could lose weight eating fried chicken, mashed potatoes with gravy, and a side of buttery green beans? Would you believe me if I said you could look forward to delicious pizza & soda on the weekends? Could you imagine what it would feel like to eat dessert every night guilt-free?”
So, our ancestors ate pizza, soda, and dessert every night?
I guess it depends on the definition of ‘ancestors.’ I’m nearly 50 and my parents certainly didn’t do this. Does that make it ‘right’ or ‘wrong’? Certainly not. Its’ simply one data point.
Look, I don’t want to rain on anyone’s parade. Honestly. If people are looking for an excuse to eat in a particular way, there are plenty of eating plans to support their decision. This book may be one of them.
But, isn’t there more to health than simply losing “weight”? Maybe the book goes into specific details showing she lost visceral fat and not muscle. Perhaps other markers were also observed before and after the weight loss. Otherwise, if a person simply wants to lose weight, they can try chemotherapy. (No, don’t do that…)
It sounds like something we might hear Dr. Oz proclaim: “What if I told you that you can lose 20, 30, or more pounds by Thanksgiving, simply by eating more fried chicken and desserts? Well, on today’s show, I’m going to share a powerful, new secret that shows you how to do just that! No dieting, no exercise, and eat all you want.”
My point is the devil is in the details and would encourage people to ponder if perhaps there’s more to health than scale weight.
Matt, Love your work. Would you be willing to spell out that this approach works just as well for people who are older, already quite fat and haven’t been trying to lose weight by going without? If they found a way to stop eating when they reached normal fullness, would their already hot metabs work for them to slowly release weight? My dieting days (which definitely contributed to my overweight)are long over. My body is getting uncomfortably warm (though my feet are still cold), and I am just getting a little bigger… In reality I am probably eating too much. Needing a bit of encouragement. Thanks.
I think it’s highly variable from person to person, a lot more than food is involved, and age is certainly a factor that works against losing weight spontaneously. If there is still some creeping weight gain, I think that’s time to experiment with a few changes, such as sleeping more or changing your sleep schedule, getting more or less or a different type of physical activity, and making small changes in your diet to see what effect it has, such as increasing or decreasing carbohydrates or protein. But I don’t think there’s a straightforward playbook or an explicit set of instructions for older people rather than younger people. In fact, the need to defend metabolic rate as we age becomes increasingly more important the older we get.
Gotta say it’s hard to keep the faith with this stuff. I eat 4000+ calories a day, ALL from hyper palatable foods, and did NOT gain weight from doing this. However, I’m currently at 310 pounds (male, 5’10”), and deep into ‘morbid obesity’ territory. I love the toasty warmth and mental well being, but i just can’t stay at this weight. It reduces quality of life significantly. What do you advise Matt?
Dear Skeptic,
I have seen this comment several times in the 180 Degree Health Forums.
180degreehealth[dot]com/forums
It might be helpful to peruse the forums and see what others have written, the responses, and perhaps post your own question.
Buck
If there was a clear alternative besides maintaining a healthy metabolic rate, I’d be the first to let you know about it. But what really is the answer? Most of the answers you’d get from someone else are going to all be various gimmicks. You can try eating cleaner and exercising more or differently than you may be now, but I can’t guarantee that it’s going to result in weight loss or that weight loss induced that way will come without adverse effects on your metabolic rate.
Wait? Wait wait, you’re telling a borderline morbidly obese man to basically just keep eating what he wants and maybe exercise were changing his diet might or might not do anything. Is everything you preach just based on the comfort that people feel when they feel like they don’t have to change anything, and eat anything they want, and just do whatever they want while giving very broad answers that actually say nothing at all? Some of the people wanting to follow you need to hear what they don’t want to hear. Stop eating so goddamn much and go for a walk. Build more lean mass that is more metabolically active than your adipose tissue. Stop eating things that disrupt your endocrine system, slow down your thyroid, and lower your testosterone. Maintain some discipline without going crazy or turn into a sloth. I mean some of your stuff reads like “the secret” for diet instead of “think and affirm it and it will come” its “sit and eat and it will go away”.
If I were you, I’d start tracking, get good at it. I like myfitnesspal. Set it at like 10,000 calories at first and ignore the calorie goal. You’re just getting your baseline. After about a week you can see what you are eating. I’d then try setting it to 500 calories less than you find youve been eating. I think you will find this will probably not leave you hungry and you will start to very slowly lose weight. Add in some walking and add back about 3/4 of the calories you burn walking. Work up to 30 minutes a day of exercise, some of it weight lifting (which can be body weight exercises, modified to whatever level works for you). You might find you can go to a little bigger deficit at your weight, but I’d keep it 700 or less. Just let it do its thing. You’re looking at about 1-1.5 lbs a week and it may be a few weeks before you see the loss. When I started, I lost only like 1.5 lbs until I hit 7 weeks, then boom 7 lbs.
I need to keep hearing success stories. I’m trying to keep the faith, but I don’t feel like I’m making much progress.
Keep the faith! It’s worth it!
I re-fed in March of 2013 but didn’t reach my peak weight- or size- until spring of the following year. I hit 162ish with a 33″ midsection at my highest. After a spring and summer of gentle re-introduction to exercise and lots of bagels and ice cream, my waist is down to 30″. I think my weight is only down about 5 pounds, but I’m not really concerned about how much gravity it takes to keep me on the earth.
I do cardio 1x a week, belly dance classes, and will hopefully be going back to yoga soon. It’s been worth it just to have freedom from the mental slavery, where I would feel awful about almost everything I ate, and if I didn’t work out enough. I’m warmer and better rested. It’s not perfect all the time- sometimes I get super busy and eating gets pushed to the back burner. But it’s still such a vast improvement over being cold, anxious, and self-righteous.
Why do you feel like you’re not making progress? Metabolic rate not rising? Weight not stabilizing? Or are you feeling and functioning fine just not losing weight?
How is your own fat-loss going, Matt? Last I checked in, you were still pretty chubby.
Like or not (I sure didn’t) there are foods that need to be eliminated. Grains, for example. Maybe leave in some rice, but gluten is a literal gut-wrencher. So are the other grains, but it seems like rice is the least bad of the grains.
Gut health and the microbiome needs to be addressed too. Not just scoffing at the mere mention of it like I’ve seen you do. Gotta kill the bad bacteria and put in a bunch of good ones with probiotics and fermented foods…and yes, antibiotics will screw up anyone’s microbiome.
For all the people here wondering what to do, look into GAPS. It’s not just for autistic children, it’s for anyone with gut issues, which means it’s for all of us fatties. The GAPS diet is really restrictive though, so I’m not doing that. I’m just eating a lot of bone broth, boiled meats, softly cooked veggies, cutting waaaaaaaay down on starches, eating more saturated fats to ensure adequate calorie intake, and consuming lots of probiotics. The result so far is slimming without feeling hungry, better energy, mental clarity, etc etc.
So yea, the microbiome and small intestine health are hugely important. Anything that doesn’t address them will always be hit-and-miss. Rather than settling for being fat but at a stable weight, I’m going to the root of the problem. Finally
I’m plenty chubby still. My lifestyle is pretty atrocious though, and my sleep schedule even worse, which is are major contributing factors. Despite all that, I am down roughly 13 pounds from my peak weight without effort. I’ll take that.
As for the rest of your comment, I’m not really in the mood to explain to you how retarded it is, but good luck with your semi-GAPS diet and sudden surge in energy and mental clarity that you attribute to your gut biome, lol.
I’m very appreciative of your sincerity, Matt. You’re not afraid to give an honest glimpse into your own life. I think that shows great integrity.
After all the books, blog posts, and podcasts, aren’t you burned-out on all this health stuff? I mean, it *is* pretty maddening.
I wouldn’t say totally burned out. But I feel like things have come to a reasonable point of conclusion, so there not that new, exciting, big thing lurking around the corner like there once was. I’ve been keeping myself busy with plenty of other projects though. I fill the empty spaces watching Real Genius. :)
“I fill the empty spaces watching Real Genius.”
Nicely done.
I didn’t want you to think I was stuffy. You know, no fun. All brain, no penis.
Now, time for you to get some sleep! Me, too, actually. Have a good night. Zzzzzzzzzzz…
Your reply was exactly what I expected: Juvenile and condescending at the same time.
I know it sucks to be told that you’re flat out wrong about sugar and starches being wonderfully healthy. It sucks to be told that you’ve had gut problems your whole life that produced symptoms like asthma and being overly fat and that you’re just putting a quick fix bandaid on those gut issues instead of working on the root causes.
But you’ve made so many 180 degree turns and tried so many weird things like RBTI and the milk diet, maybe one day you’ll do a 180 again and come to realize that all those grains and sugars are only giving you a temporary high, but aren’t actually healing the underlying gut problems.
I’m not really writing for your benefit, Matt. I’m writing for the people who followed your ideas and have only gone around in circles as a result.
For those people, do a youtube search for “GAPS lecture Mcbride” and listen well to this doctor who has healed thousands of people’s guts in her clinical work. I think there is a middle ground between her zero starch approach and Matt’s starch-as-a-superfood beliefs, but her information is definitely worthy of close inspection.
Well, when I wasn’t eating all the starches and sugar and stuff my insides were a mess and I felt like shit. Now I eat what I want in moderation and it has got rid of the decades of gut problems I had. Everyone has their own experiences. I listened to people like you for years and it brought me misery……but whatever floats your boat. Life is too short to stress over baked beans and bagels. My gran is 104, 14 stone and eats ALL the food
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_ECp7C1xyg
I gave her material close inspection and wrote about her on the blog. It’s flawed in many ways, and it only theoretically addresses root problems. In reality, it doesn’t, and causes more problems than it fixes.
If you leave an intelligent, non-dogmatic, logical, and sensible comment, I will happily greet that with maturity and complete lack of condescension. Until then, I’ll probably refrain from much engagement with you for the same reason I don’t try to teach calculus to golden retrievers.
It is funny that the comment that came in right before yours on another thread was someone looking for help recovering from all of the problems they incurred on the GAPS diet.
Dear M.F.,
(I like your alternate moniker ‘M.F. Stone’)
It seems there are a few programs that purport to address ‘gut healing,’ and, in turn, autoimmune conditions. While there are likely many more, I’m familiar with the following:
– Specific Carbohydrate Diet (SCD)
– Gut and Psychology Syndrome (GAPS)
– The Wahls Protocol
– The Paleo Approach
– Autoimmune Paleo (AIP)
In the case of Terry Wahls (author of ‘The Wahls Protocol’) and Sarah Ballantyne (author of ‘The Paleo Approach’), they seem to have resolved some significant issues through their respective diets. Of course, it’s difficult to know if diet alone was the answer. In Terry Wahls’ case, she had also been taking prescription medications.
Anyway, my questions are:
1.) Do you see any problems with ‘The Wahls Protocol’ or ‘The Paleo Approach,’ in particular? I know you found issues with GAPS.
2.) In your opinion, are animal foods required, in general, to be ‘healthy’? Can someone be an anti-grain, pro-legume vegan and be healthy? I’m just not fond of grains. Also, the older I get, the less animal foods appeal to me. Eggs would be the exception, but I have developed allergies to eggs (and shellfish).
Thanks for any feedback you may have.
Lazlo
Sorry for starting the condensation and putting you on the defensive. I hope you’ll teach that retriever some basic math, at least.
Is that GAPS blog post still around?
I agree with you that the official gaps protocol could create some real problems due to the zero starch requirement. I’m keeping enough starch to keep my metabolism up, but getting it mostly from rice.
Wheat, corn, rye and even oats were causing major problems in my gut. After cutting them out, I can actually feel what’s happening in my gut, which is that there is serious inflammation there…too much processed wheat and not enough real food for pretty much my whole life = unhappy gut.
The microbiome / gut health thing IS a big deal, though. Someone needs to come up with a way to heal the gut that doesn’t involve zero starch.
I agree the microbiome is important, especially if you start going down the endotoxin rabbit hole. I don’t think a low-carb diet and taking a bunch of probiotics and fermented foods is going to fix it though (been there done that to the extreme with no noticeable effects at all). Likewise, eating starches doesn’t necessarily equal “gut can’t heal.” As skeptic pointed out, many starchy foods can help create a more favorable environment in the gut, and byproducts of fiber and resistant starch fermentation forms butyric acid, which is the preferred fuel source for colonocytes.
Plus, I’ve had people overcome everything from minor digestive complaints to full blown Crohn’s following the general information I’ve put out, not to mention literally hundreds of cases of constipation of varying degrees completely alleviated over the last four years or so.
I could go off on a much bigger tangent, but I’ll probably save it for the revision I have planned for my unpublished book 180 Digestion. Hope to get that out next year. Hoping to title it, Pooperstar, lol.
*condescension, not condensation.
Also, I found the gaps post. I agree with pursuing an anti-fungal approach while still including carbs. That’s what I’m going to do but I’m waiting on the anti-fungals for now.
Pooperstar is a pretty great name for a health book.
I’m not doing low-carb, but I did find that I could cut down on carbs and raise fats with good results. My diet was just way too carb heavy before blending in some of the gaps ideas.
I don’t think probiotics alone are enough to take care of bacterial imbalances, but they have helped me so far. I’ve read a few anecdotes of people taking antibiotics and their candida or other bacterial problems went away, then they repopulated with lots of probiotics. Imagine that…evil antibiotics could be really helpful if followed up with a probiotic regimen.
There’s actually quite a bit of evidence showing that antibiotics can be used as effective treatment for bacterial overgrowth, and that a sterile gut is preferable to one colonized with “beneficial bacteria,” although that’s kind of a hypothetical.
I’ve managed to improve my gut health without following any diet. I started eating my own fermented foods and increased my prebiotics (especially resistant starch) by tweaking my diet very slightly over a year ago. It’s been more effective for my mental health than any prescribed medication I’ve taken (and I’ve tried them all).
As someone who healed my compulsive eating disorder through intuitive eating (by following the book “Overcoming Overeating” by Hirschmann and Munter), I totally agree with Matt about diet restriction. I couldn’t risk restricting food again (as it would likely bring back my eating disorder) even if I agreed with it.
The only other intervention that’s significantly improved my health has been the recent addition of glycine. I’ll comment about that on one of Joel Brind’s posts when I’ve been taking it for a bit longer and am certain it’s responsible for the improvements I’ve noticed.
Oh, and I eat plenty of carbs (including sugar).
Antibiotics do have their place, but I am not on board with the “sterile gut hypothesis.” Not at all. (Wrongly-prescribed antibiotics screwed up my gut when I was a kid)
I’m not saying it’s a hypothesis. It’s clear that a sterile gut yields many benefits. It’s just not possible to have a sterile gut. It’s purely a laboratory conditions kind of scenario that isn’t applicable to real, living, breathing beings living outside of a sterile lab.
I’ll go ahead and say I followed the GAPS protocol, not perfect, but pretty darn close for quite sometime and had a whole host of health problems due to it. Following Matt’s advice I’ve been able to reverse quite a few of them thus far (6 months in). In the meantime Balderdash I’d highly appreciate it if you took your comments to a website that actually agrees with what you have to say. You’re spinning your wheels here.
That’s why I’m not doing gaps. Just taking some inspiration and ideas from it, but still eating enough starches to keep my metabolism up.
My issue with the idea that “it’s all about metabolism, so eat more of everything” is that for a LOT of people over 30 years old, that approach ends up with folks getting fat and staying fat. It’s a great short-term recovery strategy. Amazing and wonderful in the short-term, but I think there is more to the story (there always is).
As for finding a site where everyone there agrees with me, that wouldn’t do anyone any good. Challenging our ideas with contradictory opinions generates new perspectives.
Besides, Matt enjoys a bit of back and forth and I already apologized for coming on way too strong at the start.
Fatty out.
People who disagree shouldn’t have to go to another website to be with people who agree with them. We should all be willing to be challenged by opposing views. I kind of hate websites where everybody is just a cheerleader for the guru or the way of the guru. This site is usually ok with opposing views. That’s why I come back.
Eating whatever I want cured my asthma when going gluten free for two years only made it (infinitely) worse. I was on GAPS, too. Plenty of people here who no longer restrict have been on GAPS.
I can see why it must be hard to believe that eating sugar and starch (especially if you’ve undergone even half the WAPF conditioning I put myself through) and gaining weight can make a difference in your overall health and quality of life, but it really does. This style of eating, in spite of me having gained nearly 100 lbs, has worked *miracles* for me, personally. Lifelong hypertension, gone. Horrible, horrible lifelong constipation that GAPS could never touch, gone. I’m mentally stable, for the first time, while off ALL anti-depressants. Things aren’t perfect. I don’t *love* being fat all the time, although I’m growing more accustomed to it. But I feel *healthier* and stronger and it’s a process.
It seems like you think this is somehow the “easy way out”. That if people are finally allowed to eat whatever their body desires, that must just be another instance of fat people being lazy and stupid. I’ve gained almost 100 lbs. eating this way. I can tell you that it isn’t the easy way out. But I do it because I’ve exhausted about a million other “options”. THIS is working for me. So, you can keep complaining that we’re all choosing the wrong path, and Matt is wrong.. or whatever point you’re trying to make, but this is working for people. As difficult as that may be for you to believe. We are real people, who are actually experiencing benefits from this way of eating and living. I would ask that you respect that before you come and assume that we’re all just fat and stupid, clinging to whatever Matt says because it somehow makes us feel better about our miserably unhealthy lives. As a fat person now, I get this point of view lobbed at me a lot, and I can’t tell you how patronizing it is.
If you’re happy with GAPS, then go focus on that. We’re fat and happy with 180. And, I would argue, better fed. :)
I definitely think the microbiome is big for overall health and weight loss but personally think gaps is a stop gap measure pardon the pun. I did it for some time and realize that it can minimize symptoms of conditions like Ibs and crohns. It did that for me but at a cost. It is way too low carb, but there was a time when starches caused me awful symptoms. But the quicker you can correct that and get off gaps the better. I think bone broth and gelatin etc are great healing foods but the low carbs are damaging the longer you have to do that. I took berberine and it cured whatever was going on with my gut in a few weeks and I was able to eat carbs. I discovered I itch from wheat particatly whole wheat so don’t do that much but now eat lots of potatoes and rice. I feel much stronger and healthier. Berberine resolves intestinal infections and helps heal and seal the gut lining. I would def recommend that people do something like this to get their gut in a place to go on to something like what Matt recommends and get all the different categories of foods back into your diet in plentiful amounts rather than going for years on scd/gaps.
Oh god that’s it, I’m fucking out of here lol. So you’re basically a fat guy that hasn’t lost his weight, and you’re hoping with the rest of your cult followers that somehow you will lose the weight and so will they, meanwhile you have no idea about intestinal health and how that effects neurotransmitter production, and a whole cascade of things that go on from there, not the least of which are mineral/micro/macronutrient absorption. Gah. Later.
See ya later. Good luck with your intestinal health and knowing more about it than I do (keep dreaming).
Dear Zero,
In May of this year, Bloomberg News reported the following:
“Obese or Overweight People Top 2.1 Billion Worldwide”
So, in your estimation, these 2.1 billion people are just lazy? They just eat too much and exercise too little? Is that your simplistic explanation?
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
So, where can we buy your book, genius?
Carl
Don’t forget Carl, in 1998 the BMI scale was shifted meaning that overnight 25 million Americans who were considered normal weight became overweight overnight. I don’t understand why Zero cares so damn much about having some fat. He sounds a bit anorexic to me.
Love how I’ve been easily losing weight without limiting grain or sugar or any of the things that I went without before (and lost lean muscle like mad without). I think it’s about macros, small deficits, sleeping good, exercise and patience.
Thanks for sharing all of the stories everyone. Cool stuff.
“Fatty Balderdash” What a great name!
Thanks for your comments. I’m somewhat mixed on my feelings about grains.
1.) On one hand, I really don’t see grains as a health food. They seem pretty nutritionally-weak, when compared against just about any other whole food — whether Paleo, Vegan, Vegetarian, etc.
2.) On the other hand, from an economical standpoint, a lot of people eat grains and legumes as staple foods, because they are cheap. And, many of those people (around the world) appear to be healthy. Is it BECAUSE of the grains/legumes, or DESPITE them? It depends on who you ask.
In my mind, a fundamental consideration is whether one is basically healthy or somewhat broken. That, in turn, would seem to influence whether one can eat grains.
…and, the fried chicken, pizza, and soda mentioned in the book.
Personally, I don’t believe that adding intra-abdominal (visceral) fat is healthy, even if it’s supposedly a “short-term” thing. It seems it’s NOT been “short-term” for many. Check-out the 180 Degree Health Forums for peoples’ testimonials.
Hi Buck,
Yes, that’s the key: basically healthy or somewhat broken. People who received a great gut biome from their mothers and are basically healthy can eat all kinds of stuff that people with compromised guts can’t get away with. We all know those people that digest everything well, have great energy levels and can’t even remember to take vitamins because they’re too busy being outdoors.
Then there’s the rest of us who’s mothers passed on imbalanced gut flora and as we grew up we got hit with vaccines, dental amalgams, antibiotics and nutritionally void foods. Maybe not “sick” per se, but not really healthy, either.
I don’t think McBride has all the answers, and nobody knows what they don’t know, but just two months of using some of her ideas has done a lot for my gut health. As a bonus, I’m less of a fatty, I’m not hungry at all, and I’m still not even exercising much. Maybe in a year I’ll have to change my name to Shreddy Balderdash. :)
After a decade of wacko dieting, overeating, and more, I absolutely lost an average of 50 pounds 4 times (3 times post-partum) eating-anything-when-hungry, stopping-when-full long before I ever came across this site. I did the initial weight gain thing accidentally while pulling myself out of major depression & severe undereating/overexercising. I’ve fine-tuned it to what makes me feel best (“cleaner” foods that contain a variety of macros each meal), and the last couple of years I exercise moderately. I’m a thin girl now & my metabolism still isn’t perfect on its own, although it’s 99 most days thanks to a small bit of thyroid meds, and hopefully I’ll finish off the last of my oddball health issues on Dr. G’s mineral program. Seriously, people, it really is okay to chill the heck out and work with your body.
It’s good to see the idea that fat loss doesn’t always equate to calorie restriction getting some mainstream press. I’m not convinced that stress, dieting, and PUFAs are the main drivers of the obesity epidemic though. Not to say they aren’t important factors, or that the problem is simple. Getting rid of them is clearly not the answer for everyone to lose unappreciated fat if the abundant comments on this blog from people with some benefits and a new weight set point are any indication. Maybe we haven’t stuck it out long enough, but my guess is that there are other things at work. I’m forced to continue looking, because I feel fairly convinced that I will not favorably affect my body composition if I can’t break the cycle of chronic illness I’m in and shift into a more dynamic, functional state. For instance, I can’t sleep well. None of that sleep hygiene, supplement, relaxation crap works if well if the body is all biochemically out of whack. I also have very little exercise tolerance and sitting around on my ass all day doesn’t help much of anything. Chronic bodily dysfunction, with generalized symptoms hunting for a diagnosis seems to be more and more common. Our body regulation systems are falling apart. I’m putting my efforts at this point into detoxification. I just feel, I guess intuitively and logically, that the ever increasing exposure to, and bodily loads of, toxic substances like metals, halides and man made chemicals of all kinds, are a very likely culprit in what looks like an epidemic of endocrine dysfunction. We know that a lot of that stuff acts to disrupt the endocrine system, and no one is spared exposure. There also may be a genetic component that makes some of us slow detoxers. Chris Shade seems like the smartest guy in the room when it comes to mercury detox, and he says that the same glutathione system that his protocol supports also detoxes most other stuff as well. So, I’m throwing my chips in that direction. Also interested in the iodine issue Brownstein and his camp of pro-iodine cheerleaders have a lot of compelling arguments in favor of supplementation with relatively high quantities of iodine and I’ve yet to see a compelling critique of their position. I’ve spent some time now looking that the hypothyroid community now too. There is almost no discussion of the starvation response, or other things that might cause us to get unnecessarily stuck in a low metabolic state, and of course correspondingly no significant discussion about using diet strategy like re-feeding to push people out of that. In fact, most of the diet recommendations in the hypothyroid community are carbophobic. Lots of people out there on thyroid meds that might not need to be. Re-feeding strategies might fix a lot of people up pretty good, and I feel like they gave me a base to work off of, but only so many benefits came along with a normal body temperature, so body temperature isn’t everything, and I feel sure that I’m not going to just gradually get better at this point, just because my metabolic rate appears to be alright as judged by body temperature alone. I think a lot of us are going to have to build on that with other strategies to repair, or maybe just relieve, the endocrine system. Another thing that has always struck me is that I think people used to be more stress tolerant. I don’t really buy the modern life is stressful argument or degenerative disease. I mean, maybe, we do have maybe different stressors, but try frequently going without enough to eat, losing a bunch of the many children you bear to disease (probably watching them die from some infectious disease, slowly and painfully), poverty, extreme long work hours and exposure…. and where was all the obesity and degenerative disease caused by “stress”. The modern stress argument just seems to have taken on a life of it’s own and I guess I’m just not convinced. Maybe it’s more like our endocrine systems are just barely sufficient for whatever reasons (or in many cases plain not sufficient) so we just have less resiliency and can’t just bounce back into a positive hormonal balance as easily when exposed to stressors. I’m pretty hesitant to supplement with hormones if I can possibly help it, and I’m not going to go there until I have to. So, for now it’s detoxification and see where that gets me.
Just to give you even more cognitive dissonance, Joel Brind’s next post is about some potential problems with raising glutathione levels, lol. The neverending game of whack-a-mole. Sorry you’re not feeling better Steven. You deserve to.
Yeah, I’m pushin’ away at those glutathione levels! I’ve been on glycine for a while now. I’m almost through a 1 pound jar and did some gelatins before that. As far as I can tell, I might as well be eating placebo in terms of any effect on inflammation. Lots of opinions, theories and cautions to navigate out there.
Cognitive dissonance, eh, Matt? Well, I guess I could weigh in here with a bit of a preview and clarification: Glutathione is a key natural mechanism for neutralizing oxidative and other chemical stresses. Consequently, if you add to the stress, glutathione levels will rise to combat it. Some common means of raising glutathione levels do just that. So the bottom line is that something is not necessarily good just because it raises glutathione.
Now, as far as glycine is concerned, Steven, it’s important to have enough in the diet, as most diets are deficient. That doesn’t necessarily mean that a glycine supplement will fix whatever is out of balance, however, in regard to other nutrients or other issues. So just because it has no obvious effect, I wouldn’t (indeed, did not myself) stop having it every day as part of a well balanced diet (assuming the diet is glycine deficient to begin with).
Sometimes I have wondered that if our capabilities to save more and more people at all stages of life have been the driving force of the increase of sicker people. In other words, in the US, more people who might have died in another part of the world or at an earlier time, are saved though still have health problems. Illness and stress used to weed out the weak. I know I would have died at a very early age had I been born a hundred or more years ago. Giving childbirth used to be a very dangerous event – many women and their babies died. Just an idea, as I have often wondered how hard it would have been for me to have lived in another time or place. I was born sickly and weak and needed an emergency c-section when I needed to give birth – something that is a relatively recent intervention.
Definitely a factor. One of those inconvenient truths for sure. This idea was really at the forefront of my mind in my early 20’s before I began doing any real health research. What can really be done about it though? Mandatory sterilization for all those that don’t have 32 perfectly straight teeth? Obviously not. It’s a real moral dilemma. If anything, modern medicine just sweeps problems under the rug to be dealt with later on down the road–for individuals, and society and our heredity in general.
I hope to have a farm and raise animals one day, and rest assured, I won’t be giving sick animals any medicine. I’ll be feeding them to the dogs!
Follow your advice, and maybe lose weight in a couple years? Am I misreading something?
It depends. Age is a big factor. It seems most people in their teens and twenties go through the refeeding, gaining, and losing process at hyperspeed. Maybe the whole thing will take six months to reach completion at that age for most. The older you get, and the more extremes you’ve been through, the longer it seems to take to actually get to the point of seeing the weight come off, if it ever does. These are just generalizations based on observations. Each person is of course their own enigma.
Excellent points than cannot be ignored or minimized. The devil is in the details.
When a person is young and metabolically healthy, they can (and, often do) eat anything and everything with no APPARENT adverse effects. But, I don’t see this as sustainable.
This is what annoys me about a 20-something-year-old writing a book about how they did _______ diet and lost 10 pounds in a short time. “Who cares?”, I think. Talk to me when you’re 50.
Excellent point, Carl.
Since about 6 months I really let it all go; (Thank you Matt and thank you: thefuckitdiet.com) that is, after 20 years of dieting (all kinds of fasting, low carb, south beach, Paleo etc etc) I started to eat everything and you know what I lost?
My obsession with food, health, longevity, being still healthy at 101 etc. I can hardly describe what a relief that is, no obsessions anymore, I feel happy. What a relief to just eat something, just like that :-)
“Of course” I gained a lot of weight (at least 25 kilogram), but that indeed plateaued (but I don’t believe anymore that I have to have a certain weight to be healthy or approved upon) and after initially eating items more than I ever could have imagined and of which I used to think that they were VERY unhealthy, I am starting to loose any interest in food. I just eat. I’m hoping to loose also the last bit of obsession with my appearance and my wish for a sixpack, I am not quite there yet; I still care a little bit what people think about my body, especially belly. My former sports friends all give comments on how fat I am now and that made me very angry in the beginning, because all they could say as a way of greeting: “Waauh, you’ve become very fat, don’t you run anymore?”
I was very disappointed that they were so little interested in me and all they could say that I had such big belly.
I also lost interest in the scale and the mirror and lost interest in all those diet books and especially all those forums and websites about Paleo (just in order to know more about the “perfect diet” and to know precisely what’s good or bad..pffff what a waste of time and how much time I have now for just walking the dog)…..
Now as I am writing this, I see that I lost a lot :-))
In response to Balderdash:
This is just my experience, but I spent lots of time trying to “fix my gut”. I was a firm believer in diet perfection bringing true health. So I couldn’t understand why I couldn’t get there. Some things I tried helped temporarily, but nothing really cured it all. Until I got pregnant. I went from a pristine diet, where I felt my stomach burning almost all the time to completely listening to my body (Once I was past the first trimester sickness). I still ate plenty of “good for me” foods daily, but I also ate pizza weekly and ate ice cream when I felt like it (which was almost daily due to heartburn!). Of course I gained weight, but I was exercising moderately and eating well… and I was pregnant, I had expected to gain weight. But a strange thing happened. I was eating anything I wanted, and I felt GREAT! I felt better pregnant physically than I had in years! No more stomach burning or difficulty with foods. My digestion was better than ever, even being pregnant! It was amazing.
I gained a total of 45 pounds, but I was feeling so great I wasn’t worried about it. Once my baby was born I lost weight fairly quickly but as I drifted back toward more restrictive eating in order to shed the pregnancy pounds, the stomach burning returned, along with headaches and terrible brain fog. Then I started reading some of Matt’s stuff and decided to give it a try. I definitely gained weight, but as long as I was listening to my appetite I didn’t have any stomach burning and no brain fog. Nine or ten months after giving birth I got pregnant again. This time I lost weight initially. And if I stay on track now I’ll be about the same ending weight as last time, even though I started out a lot heavier this time.
All this to say… I’m not here to fight a side or battle in details, but what I do know is, when I listen to my body I have no anxiety, minimal cravings and NO MORE stomach burning. I’m so grateful a friend of mine introduced me to Matt Stone’s research and writing. For me it’s worked, and it’s a whole lot easier (and more fun and sustainable) than avoiding tons of foods for the rest of life with little to no results!
@ Balderdash
Matt is just sick and tired of debating dogmatic dieters, as am I. You get tired of repeating the same facts over and over again. But I’ll give you a few points anyways, since your concern seems genuine.
First of all, the Paleo diet has been thoroughly debunked by actual paleontologists repeatedly. Paleo man ate plenty of tubers and even grains, which they mashed and let ferment in water before consuming it, making it a sour mash, or a liquid bread if you will.
Second, gluten “intolerance” in non-Celiacs is widely believed to be b.s. by endocrinologists and gastro specialists, and no, Chris Kesser doesn’t count as an expert on this topic.
Third, rice, and many other grains like millet, quinoa, buckwheat and so on have NO gluten, nor saponins, nor phytic acid, or whatever the boogeyman is this week in the paleosphere, so how can you label all grains as evil?
Four: since you’re so interested in the gut microbiome, let me ask you this: what is good for gut bacteria? Pre-biotics. Which foods are rich in pre-biotics? Whole grains and legumes. That’s right, look it up. The foods hyped by vegans are better for your gut than foods hyped by paleos. Also interesting that you would advise a high saturated fat diet, since saturated fat is one of the worse things for gut bacteria [http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/2012/06/13/saturated-fats-change-gut-bacteria-and-may-raise-risk-for-inflammatory-bowel-disease/]
Finally, what Matt was implying was that your weight loss is due to indirectly reducing calories, by doing paleo gaps, and the ‘increased alertness/clarity’ is from increased stress hormones. Been there, done that. Bottom line is, ‘fat adaptation’ is a myth. Your body prefers glucose, and your brain absolutely demands it. Without it you thyroid will crash.
Thanks Skeptic. You managed to cover just about every major point there, the prebiotic part in particular was something I definitely would have pointed out.
Thanks for that comment Skeptic.
Skeptic, the only correction I would make in your comment is that Quinoa does have Sapponins in them, I just wouldn’t stress about that :)
Dear Skeptic,
Thank you for this most excellent information.
Some of what you wrote reminded me of Josh and Jeanne Rubin at EastWest Healing & Performance.
For anyone not familiar with Josh and Jeanne, check-out the following:
http://eastwesthealing.com
https://www.youtube.com/user/joshrubineastwest
I believe I learned about them from Matt.
Carl
Hello skeptic, having done the low-carb thing, I agree that long-term reduction of carbs is a bad thing. Having just spent two weeks in with low carbs, my body is rebelling. For lunch, I had sushi. This afternoon, I poured honey into some yogurt for the sugar. I’ve eaten three apples, and as I write this, I’m having a beer, because dammit, my body is still telling me it needs the sugar.
I think you need to be careful that you don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. From personal experience, I think properly fermented bread (i.e. sourdough/levain types) and soured porridge are essential for gut health rather than eating the crap they pass off as bread in most supermarkets. I think one needs to be careful with starch if one doesn’t have a high AMY1 copy number. It might also be that, as glucose rarely occurs alone in foods, you might be better off taking it as lactose (milk), maltose (mainly in beer) or sucrose (table sugar, honey, fruit).
Also the blog entry you point to in relation to saturated fat doesn’t say you should avoid it. It says that it might be problematic for some people, some of the time. My own experience suggests that saturated fat is a great metabolism booster.
I’m looking at a loaf of sourdough rye here. I’m pretty sure that high phytase of the rye has dealt with any issues there. Tomorrow, I’ll eat it for breakfast with some soured-cream butter and either honey, or raw milk comte cheese.
BTW, the beer I’m having is non-pasteruised and unfiltered, which means it has live yeast in it. Perhaps, I’ll get a yeast overgrowth :)
I didn’t dig around for calorie counts on what the average adult american and the average adult japanese person eat, but found these two averages after just looking at a couple of websites. might not be accurate, but I doubt a 1,000 calorie difference you state is accurate at all either. Americans eat about 2200 calories a day and the japanese eat about 2100 calories a day.
Paleo man ate some tubers, grains, etc.. but nothing compared to grain consumption after agriculture and communities, settlements took hold. As a matter of fact the oldest agricultural communities have the shortest people so as man continued to evolve he slowed his growth dramatically with the advent of agriculture. Countries that do well with carbs are much more caloric restricted than our diet. The Japanese for example eat over 1000 calories less than we do. Carbs in any amount of excess can only work with optimal metabolism(like an athletic person or a young 15 yr.old boy or girl who couldn’t gain if they tried). So go ahead, eat anything you want, “be happy” but as you head into the later stages of your life that “happiness” will certainly turn to regret.
Well V, you certainly have it all figured out, lol. See my book 12 Paleo Myths for more discussion on some of the points you think you made.
After 20 years of dieting, followed by about 4 years of eating to appetite and gaining back weight, I can now loose weight slowly by eating whole foods to full appetite without restricting any of the food groups, including starches. I do find that I need enough fats, proteins and carboydrates in order to feel full for a reasonable amount of time.
The weight loss is very slow; about 1lb every month or two. I can also get away with eating a refined snack twice a week but if I go over that I put on weight that then takes ages to come off again. This has resulted in more weight gain.
I’m going to try increasing my activity level (to a maintainable level) as I’ve become a bit lazy with walking which is what I enjoy doing for exercise. If I only had access to whole foods I don’t think I would need to do this.
Jane, aged 40
hello, got an email from you today about the new book (goals suck).
dont worry i will be buying it. i havent got time to read all these comments but i am reading the emails as they come in. i am just eating anything and everything in my path right now. lol.
some very serious things are happening. i do feel quite nauseous yesterday and today. i am worried about my heart health. but hanging on in there. i think i am not used to the rich foods and sometimes i take liver salts for that. also i need to “let go” and trust more. (some psychological woo woo for you there).
anyway i notice you arent bothered by the hand wringers which is probably the best bit of the whole thing. lol. who is winning ? as i always say. i was tempted to do another low fat vegan thing again the other day but one of my teeth broke after that so maybe not :P
um. yeh so i will get the book on Monday probably. sticking to goals for now but also using emotions as the driving force. :)
thanks for everything. xxx
actually i am reading it now on the kindle unlimited thing. great :)
naturally i am deeply suspicious lol. who even knows what my “passions” are. this is going to be awesome. xx
right. i have read it. wrote a review on amazon.
absolutely mind blowing, thanks :) xx
(loved what you said about Eckhart Tolle. i have suspected that for a whole lol. im going to get in on audible and play it to my bf who is going to love it :P)
Thanks guys
Thanks Jade for the encouragement, and your story of weight loss without trying fuels hope!
Debs thanks to you also, and your patience is really something.
Once you liberate from the ‘ drop 7lb in 7 days mentality’ and accept the slow fix, that becomes a teaching in patience.
I think underneath all this for me is the deep desire to rest my mind from the endless calculations, research and blog foraging, to find my ‘perfect’ solution.
I can report small victories, Cravings for industrially processed, refined and packaged foods are all but ghosts.
Like Jane, am fuelling on whole foods cooked from scratch eaten to appetite, including plenty of natural, complex starches. I’m not fearing fat or protein either, in fact these are essential.
It’s a mix of emotion to eat this way to be honest, maybe it;s my age (45) that I simply want to let go of the struggle and feed my body on demand. I’m 10 -15lb over but petite so it’s more noticeable and I have less energy. The idea of waiting a number of years for weightloss? Sheesh! Well yes, I think ultimately that is the mature response.
I’m sleeping very well, with good bowel habits and feel ‘warmer’ internally and also hands feet etc. Please keep the ‘success’ stories coming.
Appreciate this conversation and the sanity of dropping dietary dogma :) Thanks to all.
hi. still doing brilliant on the diet and the “goals suck” book has changed my life. i mean it only came out yesterday but BANG. it works.
so i wanted to ask a question here really.
has anybody got a clue what is going on with that unbelievable tool Markus Rothkranz. ?? the man’s a marketing genius and he has a huge amount of awesome ideas such as free food, free medicine, free energy from the sun, dress like an ageing rock star from the 80s and have a very deep tan. (hmm… ) i mean seriously go to his website now and throw money at him. ive done it.
the thing is he is promoting his raw vegan lifestyle and products with exiting videos such as this one: http://youtu.be/z3xOU2tLl7g
the thing is, he looks pretty good for his age and he pretty much gets to do what he likes. i think alot of his ideas are really good. the woo is strong with this one etc.
but, i did all that raw vegan and vegan stuff until my teeth cracked. he would say i wasnt getting out in the sun (i wasnt) but i dont really want a deep tan and after 30 days raw juicing… well, i dont even want to tell you how desperate i was to eat anything that wasnt green and watery and didnt taste of cabbage.
im going to email him now but i dont think he will give me a straight answer unless i mail him 30 bucks. i love his idea of “share everything… dont hide anything.” yeh, great idea and i will sell that to you for $30. lol.
Hi Matt, :)
Excellent points. The body indeed has an involuntary system which operates over the very long term. It’s been identified ( Douglas Coleman) and confirmed in recent years ( Friedman and Rosenbaum). And it is not going away either. Great stuff ! :) Dr. Linda Bacon noted this too.
If I may, I just want to take this time to publicly correct CarbSane about her second law of thermodynamics article so everybody can see this. Due to my top scientific sources ( M.I.T. and CalTech), I know the real deal- how to correctly state it. This way of saying it is extremely important ) I will capitalize important words):
“There can be no process whose ONLY result is to convert high-entropy energy into low-entropy. Moreover, each time we convert one type of energy into another, we always end up with higher -entropy energy.In energy conversions, OVERALL entropy always increases.”
That is the way to properly explain it. It is very subtle and most people do it wrong.CarbSane is also completely incorrect about laws in science. Being “immutable” is not even remotely a characteristic of a law. They are approximations only. Out models and pictures and best guesses as to how we think is going on. They are only the shadow on the wall of a cave of the cave of a far deeper underlying reality. And it is difficult to say if they even exist in the same sense as Nature or physical reality. Sure, they are in accord with our observations which we can test by experiment thus far.
However, “laws” remain always provisional and always perfectible. Scientists actually EXPECT them to be modified in the future with further advancements. They are not “better than”, “above” or “more true” than a theory.
This stuff is directly from Dr. David Gross’ videos, a once in a generation physicist and a Nobel Prize winner.Verifiable.
Just a one time thing. I had to mention it because as you know she bans me because I refute her very incorrect information about this specific thermodynamics topic. Anybody out there reading this – please correct this terribly misinformed woman!
And as we know from the comments of ACTUAL physicists who directly study non-equilibrium thermodynamics : Obesity is NOT a matter of basic thermodynamics- it is about physiology and biochemistry. Relevant but not nearly sufficient. :)
Take care, Matt.
Best wishes,
Dr. Razz Harmony Ph.D. LOL !
Your input, along with anyone else’s, is always welcome here Razzle Dazzle.
Matthew, et al.,
What about Dr. Perlmutter? Has anyone read his book GRAIN BRAIN?
Based solely on interviews I’ve watched and heard, it seems ol’ Dr. Duckbutter believes that grains cause neurodegeneration in most folks.
Not surprisingly, he’s on the high-fat, moderate protein, low-carb (<60g/day) bandwagon. I've heard him say no more than one piece of fruit per day.
It's been said there's no evidence of a multi-generational vegan society. I'm pretty sure the same could be said about a ketogenic existence.
Anyone? Anyone?
Buck
I would assume the Perlmutter is making some huge mistakes about the relationship between carbohydrate ingestion, blood glucose levels, fructose, advanced glycation end products, ketones, and neurodegenerative disease. The general idea the circulates in the world of carbophobia is that neurodegenerative disease is “diabetes of the brain.” Yes, damage done to the brain by high blood glucose levels probably is a big player. However, eating carbs doesn’t cause high blood sugar or diabetes. They actually afford great protection, keeping blood sugar nice and low and glucose metabolism similar to that in youth. Advanced glycation end products and similar forms of damage have a lot more to do with lipid peroxidation (fats oxidizing) than it does carbohydrates forming some kind of Maillard reaction. Throw in more craziness, and you have them touting the benefits of coconut oil in neurodegenerative disease and thinking that it’s because of the ketones. Ketones! Better brain fuel! Blah blah blah. The fact that coconut oil is protective points to the root of the real problem, which is unsaturated fats, well-known to be a lot more central to the aging process than anything that could possibly happen to an ingested carbohydrate. In summary, it’s a huge entanglement of false premises in which the “grain brain” theories are built. It’s just more low-carbist pseudoscience. You want real understanding of aging, intelligence, and neurodegeneration, spend some time at http://www.raypeat.com
Hi Matt,
Not surprisingly, you nailed Perlmutter’s assertions perfectly. Like you stated, there’s a lot of familiar refrain in the low-carb circles.
Recently, I’ve been watching some YouTube videos of Josh Rubin, and, like you, he mentions Ray Peat. I took a cursory look at Ray’s website, but I get lost pretty quickly in all of it.
This ‘diet’ stuff is pretty frustrating with people like Perlmutter, Taubes/Attia, and Lustig (also the unit of measurement for grams of ingested sugar divided by kilograms of body weight) clouding the issues.
Then, there’s the other side: Barnard, Esselstyn, McDougall, Lisle, Novick, and Fuhrman. Actually, Fuhrman seems more ‘reasonable,’ by comparison. For a layperson like me, this stuff is maddening.
Initially, like many, my foray into ‘health’ was all about body composition. I was probably 10-12 pounds fatter than I thought I should be. On my own, I had stopped eating bread and pasta, due to my feeling they were unnecessary. I kept eating legumes and other carbs and starches.
The next year, I heard about ‘The Primal Blueprint.’ Then, it was a domino effect — The Paleo Diet, Low-Carb, High-Intensity Exercise, Intermittent Fasting, then, eventually, ‘Nutritional’ Ketosis. I went down in flames.
What started as a desire to get healthy lose a little body fat has, now, a couple of years later, turned into a desire to un-fuck myself — mentally and physically.
I now have, among other issues, the following:
>> Fatigue
>> Tired, Achy, Heavy Muscles
>> Wrist, Ankle, Joint Pain
>> Poor Sleep
>> Anxiety
>> Headaches
>> Impaired Cognition
>> Vertigo
>> Tinnitus in One Ear
>> Digestive / Elimination Issues
>> Possible Low Stomach Acid (2-3 HCl caps w/meals causes no issues)
>> Food Allergies (shellfish, despite eating it for 40+ years)
A ‘NutrEval Plasma’ test from Genova Diagnostics revealed:
>> Critically Low in Vitamin B1
>> Critically Low in Magnesium
>> Borderline Low in Remaining B-Vitamins
>> Borderline Low in Zinc
>> Borderline Low in Manganese
>> Low in Eight Amino Acids
>> High Need for Probiotics (50 Billion CFU)
>> High Need for Pancreatic Enzymes
>> High Probability of ‘Toxic Exposure’ (MTBE, Styrene)
Thus far, ‘conventional’ medicine hasn’t found anything. All tests are ‘Normal,’ despite my feeling quite the opposite.
In addition to paying out-of-pocket for two Genova Diagnostics tests, I just paid for two more through Cyrex Labs. Array 2 and Array 5. As you likely know, they are not cheap.
Then, there’s the Integrative Doctor and the Functional Medicine Doctors that I’ve also paid out-of-pocket to see. Insurance continues to deny the tests and the Doctors.
Holy crap. I sorta got way off topic.
Anyway, thanks for your response, this blog, your books, and your humor and intellect.
(The other) Buck
“What started as a desire to get healthy lose a little body fat has, now, a couple of years later, turned into a desire to un-fuck myself ? mentally and physically.”
Thanks for that Buck. That’s exactly why this site exists, as that is so frequently the unfortunate long-term outcome of trying to get healthier/fitter/leaner.
This golden quote belongs on the front page/top of the website
Hey, Matt…
I’m a big fan, and am slooooowwwly changing my diet based on your principles. I’m taking it gradually, because my body tends to really react badly to big changes and swings in nutrition.
Just curious… are you familiar with Layne Norton (BioLayne)? He’s a champion bodybuilder, and one of his most popular video series is on Reverse Dieting. I’m in the gym a lot, and have several body builder friends (along with my fiance who is a beast body builder). They’ve all acknowledged that my years of low calorie/low carb eating have damaged my metabolism, and they’ve pointed me to this dude. In the mean time, I’ve also spent the past several months reading your material.
Are you familiar with it? Just thought I’d share that even people with the best bodies and physiques who have a ton of fitness training understand the concept of metabolic damage and the dangers of low-anything dieting. It would be awesome if the two of you ever teamed up.
http://www.biolayne.com/nutrition/biolayne-video-log-9-metabolic-damage/
http://www.biolayne.com/nutrition/biolayne-video-log-15-metabolic-damage-v2-0-metabolic-capacity/
http://www.biolayne.com/nutrition/biolayne-video-log-16-metabolic-damage-v3-0-damage-control-a-mechanistic-discussion-of-metabolic-adaptation/
Sure I know of Layne. I’ve watched many of his videos. Cool dude for sure. Many similarities in belief system to Scott Abel as well. Hopefully I’ll have him on the podcast someday, or something good like that.
Hi Matt, :)
This comment is just in general about the Blogosphere to help the public who read their work. I notice these gurus seem to put the randomized clinical trial on a pedestal. It should be demoted to a silver standard and perhaps less than that. Many PubMed articles about this.
RCT can be useful, but often times they can be severely limited or even totally useless in telling medical doctors which specific patients will benefit from what treatment. Not representative of anything in real life- where sick patients exist with huge variables.
Cardiologist Dr. Lori Mosca is making the push toward “Effective based Guidelines” off of what they see in actual clinical practice among sick patients. There are no magical methods in science. Even when we can tweak the knobs a bit more, such as RCT, millions of variables STILL exist. It’s only slightly less. We are still dealing with live human beings- millions of variables are ALWAYS present, Likely, the most they can ever do is tell us if we are dealing with snake oil. I applaud her.
In matters of science, experiments are one way of testing something.There are many other ways to TEST an idea. What we strive for is many different creative observations and experiments using many multiple techniques and methods to test ideas. Then if it all points in the same direction our confidence grows and we are likely on a good approximate path. However, all these factors could converge on a wrong answer STILL, as Dr. Filippenko notes. Less likely, BUT could.
The RCT is only ONE method of testing something. It is a total myth that we need experiments to be rigorous. Untrue. Observational science can be very rigorous.University of California at Berkely’s fabulous science education website points this out, as does Dr. Filippenko.
A poorly done RCT is not worth much of anything compared to a fabulously conducted prospective study. What Minger promotes is simplistic nonsense. We musty look MUCH MO/experiment.observations were done, NOT the type of study.If there is much quality research pointing in the same direction it should never be ignored.There are many built-in flaws in RCT designs which could make the result worthless. We want replication with many different techniques to test something. Such is the case with the expanding universe. It was looked at thoroughly through many methods and “rubbed through” as Feynman would say. We know understand the universe is not static.
Careful observations were how we discovered the first lines of evidence for General Relativity. Observing solar eclipse and finding a dot “here rather than here.” ( the short version- there are more details) But it boiled down to observation.
Einstein himself came up with three different creative methods/techniques to test General Relativity. :)
I just want to protect the public from the Internet’s gurus who are egregious promoters of science MYTHS and doing the public a huge disservice.
Take care,
Razz
Hi Matt, :)
My comment got a little jumbled and cut off in the center of my article due to spell check and other things. Whoops. Here are my points :
Rather than the type of study, we need to look MUCH more at the quality and extreme care that went into any type of study. It is a total myth that only the randomized clinical trial is reliable or useful. Even when we can “tweak the knobs ” a BIT more, such as a RCT , since we have humans HUGE amounts of variables STILL exist, contrary to what the uneducated and phony gurus say. Many methods and techniques- all very creative- is what we want. Then we want replication using these different techniques were they all point in the same direction.
We know a lot about the nuclear reactions inside of stars but all we have are observations. Nobody has ever been inside of a star, yet we know much about it.
Evidence alone does not determine theory choice as Einstein noted. There was always something horribly wrong with empiricism as David Duetsch notes. Knowledge is not fully derived from the senses. We do not “see” the curvature of space fabric, nor the nuclear reactions inside of stars, yet we know about these things. How ? I HIGHLY RECOMMEND David Deutsch’s YouTube lecture ” A New Way To Explain Explanation.” Great scientific information.
Compared to these scientists what I see on a lot of the Blogpshere are these gurus who have simplistic to non-understanding of real science.What goes on at the 6th grade Science Fair’s is total rhino poop and not at all how real science works.
Sorry ’bout that. :)
Take care, Matt.
Dr. Raz LOL !
Dr. Razz,
I always enjoy reading your comments! Not only here, but out on the blogosphere, too. Your taking some of the Paleo zealots to task is a particular sinful indulgence of mine. :-)
Best regards,
Carl
Thank you, Carl. very kind of you . :))
I thoroughly enjoy doing it. LOL !
My buddy Urgelt woke me up to the scammers back in 2009.
Scientists are still learning how cells work and this includes fat cells and their dysregulation.This fact has huge implications for the field of nutrition , as well as the field of medicine. This fact is something the Internet gurus cannot get around.
Scientists are nowhere near even a near complete picture. Physicist, Dr. David Gross, recommends the different scientific disciplines talk to each other so we can make progress. Physicists and biologists must intensively collaborate as science is collaborative and creative.
I encourage everybody to take on these gurus publicly from Mark Sisson to the vegans etc. Coronary artery disease is older than The Great Pyramid of Giza. We have direct evidence of this from the many different Egyptian mummies that were examined and found to have diffusely diseased artery walls, as well as other ancient mummies found in ice.
Obesity itself has been around since at least 28,000 BCE that we know of. Dr. Jeffrey Friedman notes this too.
Both of these diseases are nothing new by any means. It is just that the tools were non-existent or too simplistic to identify and diagnose coronary artery disease in the 1800s and early 1900’s. This disease was not even known about for most of that time. The gurus display ignorance.
I recommend to all watching David Gross science videos about the island of ignorance etc. Nature is not always sensible and it keeps surprising us.
Take care, Carl. Thanks again. It was very nice of you.
My Best Wishes,
Razz
Dr. Razz,
I’ve been hoping to see you pop-up on a blog post or YouTube video, but no luck. Are you still out there in cyberspace?
Sincerely,
Carl
I put this reply further up, but realized that since I’m late to the conversation, many may not see my update if they automatically check for added comments at the end of the thread, so I’ll post it here as well…
I haven?t read here in quite a while, and I was curious to see how others were doing, so I decided to check in. Since my recovery journey began here, I thought I?d give an update on myself in order to add to the data, and possibly give a bit of hope to others who are struggling.
It?s good to see Matt mention a more accurate/realistic average time frame for weight loss/tapering. This is definitely what I am experiencing, and what I?ve seen for others. I think it?s important that people realize there?s a good chance it will take longer than people initially thought so that they don?t give up in frustration when nothing seems to be happening after a year, or so, into the process.
I started this process a little over 2.5 years ago, and only recently did the weight that I gained start to come off. I reached a point where I began to develop health problems, and it felt like my body was stuck as a result, a catch 22, if you will. It was really hard not to panic and revert to dieting in order to ?help? turn my health back around, but I knew that would ultimately backfire, so I began taking supplements to help my body out, which helped tremendously. I was able to get my body unstuck, my health markers returned to normal, and my weight is going down.
I will continue to give updates on my blog (on the About page).
PS – BTW, I?m in my 40s. I thought I?d add that in for those who might be wondering about the age factor.
Oops, I meant a little over 2 years ago.
Thanks for documenting and sharing your story, am hopping over to your blog now!
Hey matt If you could I would want want you to check out skinnyfattransformation.com. It’s about a skinny kid who smaller limbs who had a paunch gut (like me). Now he went through severe re feeding and dieting which eventually messed up his hormone production. He then decided to check out his testosterone levels and they were the average of an 80 year old man. After cutting his body fat and eating plenty of natural fats by basically cutting and refeeding the body once or twice a dayhe raised is testosterone all they way up 85%. Now I know what you think..he is all bullshit but check it out and lemme know what you think. Many people have succeeded with his method and he is now a skinny fat coach. I’m also working with move your DNA by Katy bowman because I have pelvic pain and tight muscles psoas especially because of what I think might be a decreased metabolic rate. Basically if you could check out skinnyfattransformation.com because most people who diet end up with skinny arms and fat bellies. Thanks
also he is a young lad only 21 and I am only 20
My body used to be that self-regulating machine; I couldn’t go over 135 lbs even if I tried. Then my gallbladder was removed. I immediately gained 45 lbs within 5 months. That 180 lb set point stayed, no matter what I did, until I had gestational diabetes, and had to be on insulin for months. It went away after I gave birth, but my new set point was 200 lbs. Now, I’ve been in perimenopause for over a year, and my set point has been rising again, so far to 214. I haven’t restricted anything since before that pregnancy, when I tried low carb for a few months. Any suggestions? I haven’t allowed pictures to be taken of me for over 20 years, and won’t even look in a mirror anymore.
The best advice I think anyone can get is to just keep the metabolism as high as you can, don’t eat or do anything that might lead to the need to “rebound” in the future, and generally just try to keep your weight set point from jumping up another notch. Occasionally people even lose weight with long-term dedication to this approach, although it remains a bit of a unicorn.