It’s no secret that reducing carbohydrates in your diet to an extreme level slows down the metabolism. It does this by lowering production and/or synthesis of the active thyroid hormone – the one that REALLY counts, T3 – triiodothyronine.
I won’t abuse it again, but I’ve mentioned many times that even Dr. Atkins was aware of this, and stated outright that his diet “tends to shut down thyroid function” over time, which can be diagnosed by having a low body temperature.
Low-carb author Rob Faigin also acknowledges this, stating, in Natural Hormonal Enhancement:
“… T3 is a key regulator of metabolic rate, and that calorie restriction causes a decline in T3. Studies also show that diets that continuously restrict carbohydrate (like the Atkins diet, for instance) cause a reduction in T3, and that administering carbohydrate can restore T3 levels after they have declined.”
For this one simple claim, Faigin cites 10 separate studies. The key word in the above quote for Faigin would be “continuously,” meaning without periodic carbohydrate re-feeding.
Anyway, you guys know this already, and many of you have first-hand negative experiences with prolonged carbohydrate restriction – even after initially excellent results. I find it absolutely ridiculous, almost comical in fact, that the National Metabolism Society is a collective of people advocating severe carbohydrate restriction for the metabolism??!!! Or that Datis Kharrazian, hypothyroidism specialist, is all about carbohydrate restriction?
Today, go check out this post by former zero carb carnivore Danny Roddy who ran his body temperature down to 95 degrees F on a diet that he was led to believe was the optimal human diet. The post is entitled,
I Used to Think Matt Stone was a Douche, I was Wrong.
Like many of you here, you probably once thought I was a “douche” as well, but later came to believe that my run around the internet and attack people antics were really sincere, and geared towards getting noticed, and more importantly – remembered, by all the icey cold people out there following a low-carb or Paleo diet that really needed to hear the 180 message.
In Danny’s case, the arithmetic is as follows:
95.0 + 180 = 97.5
If you have a low body temperature, like many others, you have a very high likelihood of being able to overturn that and overcome health problems related to it by following the diet and lifestyle recommendations lined out in the free eBook on how to raise your metabolism accessible HERE.
"Like many of you here, you probably once thought I was a "douche" as well"
Still do!!!
LOL
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that folks now think I'm not a douche anymore, just less of a douche. Can you at least give me that Nate-dogg?
Yea sorry it was just hanging out there I had to grab at it.
Have you seen what good old MDA recently posted. Sort of creepy.
Is there a way to subscribe to comments via email (not RSS feed) without posting a comment?
(If not, then you may see me leaving comments like "." every time. LOL)
What about Inuit / Indian guts & grease diet? Did they have some kind of secret? Maybe life style?
Hey Matt,
Can you define low carb and low calorie? Just trying to get context.
Hans-
I dunno, but they were the exception not the rule, and had many indicators of sub-optimal health such as rapid aging. Hard to say what metabolic adaptations they could have had going for them as well. Fermented fish to raise metabolism via production of propionic, butyric, and acetic acid? Asronomical calcium intake? Astronomical omega 3 intake? Perhaps just well-adapted… moreso than most modern humans can expect to be able to pull off? Maybe their life was so pleasurable, relaxing, and stress free (doubtful) that their adrenals could withstand the extra burden? Amazing gluconeogensis and extra protein consumption? They did report eating up to 5-10 pounds of fish per day when times were a plenty, which would leave plenty of glucose once excess was broken down.
Nathan-
I have seen Mark Sisson's posts lately – with the leptin re-feeds, the "hey this Berkhan dude is pretty cool" lines, and the have you heard about SOCS-3 and leptin resistance?
Interesting info. coming from a guy who has banned me from leaving comments at the site and blocked my IP address from his forum.
Stephanie-
You'll have to ask the computer geeks. I'm just a health geek.
Low-calore… well below typical maintenance calorie levels via standard calculations. For example, at my age, weight, and activity level mine should be around 3,000 calories per day. I'd say anything under 2,000 would certainly qualify as calorie restriction.
Low-carb… Less than 50 grams per day/typical Atkins low-carb levels/ketogenic dieting.
Roddy was more or less a meat n' water guy like Charles Washington… zero carb.
Also, if you could describe your current diet in more detail, that would be great. I know you have been doing more carbs, less fat and protein. I'm particularly interested in hearing about your leaning out progress. It intrigues me because it is so different from the popular notion of: to lean out it is best to be low carb in a calorie deficit. Maybe this is just a short term fix that won't work forever?
I want to think its simple and say that its just protein, fat, and carbs to fuel performance. How do the high carb amounts not turn into trigs? Is it because they are non-refined? Is it really just the answer of eat whatever as long as it is real food (potatoes and rice are real food I would think, JT and Riles would agree I assume). Just ranting but that's about where I am.
Matt,
As an aside to Mark's question about low calorie and low carb:
I'm thinking that "low calorie" should mean, for practical purposes only, "When you eat any less amount than what your stomach desires." When you look at the massive binge-eating that the Minnesota semi-starvation subjects spontaneously did for months in order to recover/rehabilitate, it seems like indulging any impulse to eat is the way to go for anyone who's done any sort of restrictive eating.
As long as you're not indulging by eating fudge sundaes with a side of donuts, or something like that.
But too many people talk about their hunger as an enemy to be fought (or suppressed with a low carb diet).
Samuel-
Good point, and I agree. Eating less than appetite would constitute calorie-restriction in some sense, but the strict usage of the term as it applies to the T3 reduction Faigin speaks about implies lowering calories to the point where weight loss is induced.
Mark-
I'll do that soon. My diet has been all over the place in terms of consistency, but in general just remains lower in fat and protein. Yesterday I had a late breakfast of brown rice, potatoes, and ratatouille (veggies in tomato sauce basically, some butter used), a lunch at a Vietnamese restaurant with 2 entrees – both low-fat rice noodle bowls with a few shrimp), and dinner of 3 pounds of blueberries (wasn't hungry, but knew I should eat something).
There is some indication that keeping protein down can induce greater dietary thermogenesis, which is the opposite of the standard belief which suggests that diet-induced thermogenesis lends to the belief that the more protein calories we ingest the better.
Unless calories are really excessive, it is unlikely that muscle and liver glycogen stores would get totally saturated and be converted to triglycerides and stored.
I find it almost impossible actually.
I've been reading this blog for a while trying to figure out what is stopping me from losing the 30 pounds I gained taking steroids. I've been 'resting' my adrenals, eating plenty of 'real food'. I don't restrict carbs, fats or anything. I am fairly active without over-exercising and I never go hungry or skip meals.
Like the Grinch – ' I've puzzled and puzzled til my puzzler was sore', but whatever the key is, I'm missing it.
Eek, I forgot to click to get email follow-up. LOL
The comments on your blog posts have so much good stuff in them! :o)
Anonymous-
There really is no clearly defined way to lose fat safely and reliably. That is one thing we are currently exploring, as the ideas revolving around this are endless. By far the best feedback I've gotten from others comes from various forms of "cycling." There's no question that low-carb diets are superior and healthier if there is a cycling element like Faigin's program alluded to above. It is plausible that a diet with fat reduced and starch maximized can be used effectively as well, without cycling, and all things considered I thinketh it easier and healthier.
The history of steroid use certainly doesn't make things any easier.
Ideally I'd like to take many people through recovery (RRARF), help get the weight off without compromising body temperature, sacrificing lean tissue, health, etc., and then transition to a relaxed and sustainable mixed and enjoyable maintenance diet (eucaloric HED more or less).
I like the cycling idea and it basically leaves me with eat real food only, try not to go high in fat and carbs at the same meal. Basically starch = minimal fat, no starch = have some fat. Every cycling program I have seen calls for this. Let protein fall where it will. How does this look? This would make things more simple and easy to follow. Or if you want to go Paleo (everything that didn't involve processing), high amounts of fat and carbs could not be found at the same time in the same place. High carb from tubers, not much fat around. High fat from seal blubber, no tubers. Kitavins had coconut but it would take a ton of coconuts to get to that much fat and it's not super easy to open one of those. Maybe this approach can be called tue "Choose your region of the globe approach." does this make sense?
Another question, would jasmine rice be a suitable substitute instead of potatoes?
Mark-
I don't know if your plan for losing fat needs to be put into the context of primal eating habits, but that was kinda cute :)
Rather, I'd like to see you get whatever fat you'd like to get off with a patient, steady approach like that – relying heavily on your own biofeedback and not so diligently on a pre-set schedule, and then find a maintenance diet that is enjoyable and sustainable for you. Almost all of us can maintain weight on high fat and high carbs, we'd just like to be maintaining weight at a lower level of bodyfat. Can this even be expected? We'll find out.
White rice of any kind is a suitable substitute for potatoes I would think; however, I'm always more hesitant about any kind of refined carb, even the beloved rice. I would think a diet really high in white rice should be supplemented with lots of B vitamins and/or nutritional yeast or something along those lines.
It was cute, huh? My biggest problem is that I overthink food and nutrition. It's always a battle. That's why sometimes it helps to put food in the simplest perspective. Eat real food seems to be the most consistent message. I wish I didn't think about it so much, so does my wife :)
It's always nice to set up your own strawman and then knock it down. Makes you look smart … to the sheep.
Matt, why were you kicked off of Mark's Daily Apple?
I like the fact that you have written books but are not afraid to admit that advice you have given in the past was wrong or misguided. It's like when people get mad at politicians for changing their views – sometimes they really do have a new focus on an issue and their feelings have changed. Guys like Eades and Sisson are unfortunately locked in now because they have written books and are trying to build empires around a certain way of thinking. That puts up blinders to any contrary information and leads them to more aggressively defend their way of thinking, to the point way they are saying things like "hypothyroidism is a good thing."
I certainly lost weight easily on a low carb diet, but at the same time my muscles looked very flat and I had a very low level of energy. It was also the only time that I had a very low performance in school. Coincidence? I think not.
Keep up the good work. Be a pain in the ass if that's what it requires to let people know that they can enjoy potatoes and fruit and not be so afraid of the dreaded insulin.
Scott
I'd second a post on your current diet etc. Thanks Matt Stone (Deep voice)
Thanks anonymous-
If sheep eat carbs then call us sheep. We still think too much insulin is baaaaaaaddd.
Mark-
I feel bad about the overthinking thing. My site is like a refuge for health thinkaholics anonymous. I'm an enabler. The significant others hate that sh*t.
But I think of the thinking as being like practice for a sport. In practice, you spend a lot of time developing. When you step into the game, you try to keep your head out of it and rely on the instinct you developed during your training.
When it comes to health information, when you shut the book or close the browser, you gotta clear your mind and leave it behind. Easier said than done.
Will-
Thanks for the deep voice effect. Although I don't like to be too overly eager to reveal my eating habits until after the fact, so it may be a few more weeks before you get the inside scoop on exactly how I'm eating. I think you get the picture though – mostly cooked rice and potatoes with plenty of vegetables and greens, animal protein with 1 meal per day or so but not all. Eat to fullness when hungry – whether it's 2 meals per day or 5 depends on the day. About 20% of my diet is fruit, eaten as a monomeal – completely by itself.
Swede-
Thanks hombre. Being a pain in the ass is not really my style, but sometimes I force myself to do it because I know it works. Sisson barred me shortly after Nikoley told the paleosphere to steer clear of me and bar me from their secret caveman club – the "paleo for population control" post didn't help much either.
It's cool. It's only been a few months. He'll get over it. We'll sunbathe in Malibu someday, run some sprints in our Vibrams, and go to In n' Out burger in disguise. I'll be his alibi, swearing that he "chewed the bun but didn't swallow."
Is this really Art De Vany?
http://wmbf.images.worldnow.com/images/11968834_BG1.jpg
I personally don't think he looks too swell for his age.
This would be precisely why I love cyclical keto diet like Body Opus, etc.*: I spent five years on it and never had to deal w/ the sides and maintained very low body fat (sub-10%) year 'round.
(Doing IF now, but it'll have to be pretty bloody amazing to top a cyclical keto.)
*5 days very low-card, 2 day re-feeds.
Hey Matt,
I like that you're honest and consistent in your work. Not necessarily consistent in your conclusions, but consistently probing and thoughtful.
My own updates involve a couple days of fat eating, because the high starch diet was too bland to sustain without a break. Cycling in this case too. A TRUE2go glyucose mointor is on its way, and I'm looking forward to testing my levels, and experimenting with enhancing my insulin sensitivity. It's real tough for me to let go on pre-set plans because I want results, but I'm attepting to trust my body more and not feel bad about my food choices. My temps are in the low 97s almost every day, but no higher. Dunno what to do to raise them. Abel-style MET? Details coming, Matt? We'll see how it goes.
Thanks man, and good luck Danny.
ECM-
Think you coulda maintained low body fat levels year round immediately after you got lean using BodyOpus, instead of doing it consistently for 5 years?
Constantly trying to do Body Opus is way too restrictive for the average person to do for life, and I suspect, long-term, it could be quite harmful.
But if you could use that approach, or something similar to get lean without becoming dependent on doing it to STAY lean, well then, I'd be quite interested in that.
From another Forum:
"My temperature was ~96.8 for about 30 years while I yo-yoed on and off HC/vLF 1100-1200 diets – I even bought three different thermometers because I thought they must be mis-calibrated.
Only when I stopped starving myself and switched to a HF/vLC 2000-calorie WOE did my temperature return to the 98.6 last seen when I was a non-dieting kid. My thyroid levels went from low/borderline normal to mid-normal, all without medication."
2000 kcal for a female is at least 3500 for a male, i'd say. So, i still don't believe that Low Carb leads to metabolic problems, Zero Carb maybe. The main problem is eating low kcal, not Low Carb. And this makes perfect sense in the history of mankind, man can live on both low-carb & high-carb in perfect health, but i think if you choose to eat low-carb, you have to eat more kcal than when on a high-carb diet to get the same results, don't know why though…
Jay
All this talk of you being banned from Mark's Daily Apple is making me itch to run over and leave some entertaining comments in your place, Matt.
Thanks Jay-
On low-carb my body temperature was good (97.8-97.9 axillary), but I still had a buttload of health problems.
Calories? I crushed them. Breakfast when I was not physically active, and I'm not exaggerating, was like 8 whole eggs, 2T butter, 2 slices of bacon with grease, and 3 ounces of cheese. I ate like that 3 times per day, although not for very long (about 4-5 months below 100 grams carbs per day).
When I did keep track I was averaging 4000 kcal per day while moderately active.
Low calories certainly make it worse.
But 9 of 10 low-carb authors/bloggers also recommend keeping calories low, think that is preferable, and/or recommend meal plans that are low-calorie while saying "don't count calories."
Thanks Liz. Take it easy though. I am pretty threatening you must admit, especially for those whose livelihood stems from nutritional beliefs that are not in accordance with mine.
Some polite comments with links to my site would be great though! Ha ha!
Ha ha. Well I have to get pretty warmed up before I can get to the level of threatening. I'm not very confrontational by nature.
That is, until you get close to me and then I'll confront your butt off. :p
I'll be your cheerleader, Elizabeth!
Okay Matt I took your advise starting last week and you were right, the carbs have made me hypermetabolic and very hot. But I'm way jittery and it's the summer. Not that I'm complaining, at least now I know that my metabolism is good enough to have tons of energy all the time.
My conclusion would be that super high metabolism isn't necessarily a good thing for someone who sits around all day other than a 30 minute workout. But if I am ever doing stuff I will eat carbs. I'll definitely heed your warning about too much low carb and adrenal fatigue.
Raccoons-
My current axillary body temperature…
98.3 degrees F
Physical activity today – Shower, chewing, 10.5 hours typing and mouse clicking.
But I would disagree with your belief that a high metabolism is bad for a sedentary person. In fact, I've come to the conclusion that exercise is known to be beneficial for many in the Western world because we don't generate enough mitochondrial activity at rest to burn off fatty acids, and thus must do it via exercise to stave off metabolic syndrome, which shouldn't have to be exercise-dependent (not that I'm not a fan of exercise, I think it's great if you are healthy enough to do it safely).
I took my temp a little while ago. I did both oral and underarm at the same time (with the Vicks specially shaped underarm thermometer recommended by Matt). My oral temp was 99.2. My axillary was 97.3. ????
Is one of these thermometers messed up? I generally (over the past few years) get readings in the 97s on both axillary and oral thermometers. I actually took my oral temp again with a different oral thermometer and it was the same – and so was the Vicks when I did it twice as well.
Oh, and I hadn't had anything to eat or drink for several hours beforehand. I had been taking a nap. :o)
Okay, after posting that I did the underarm one again – several times in both pits – and got 99.5, then 97.5, then 98.5. So, basically, the underarm thermometer is all over the place which is annoying. LOL. I wanted a simple way to take my temperature. :-/
The good news is that I'm up in the 99s! It's the second half of my cycle so I'll see where I am in a few weeks. :o)
Great post friend, I know more about metabolism now. Hit me sometime OK. Thanks.
Regard
Bronchitis
Loved the Danny Roddy post, and Matt your comment about chilling with Sisson in Malibu had me cracking up….
Bit off topic but I was wondering if anyone around here has experienced problems with waking 5-6 hours after going to sleep sort of sweating and heart pounding (not bad but noticeable) I will get up and grab some water then try to get back to sleep but I am overcome by extreme hunger and gnawing in my stomach. The only way to remedy this is to grab some food like a few spoons of yoghurt or a chunk of apple.
From what I can tell it seems to be a bit of Hypoglycemia (not surprised as I can't go more than 4-5 hours after a meal during the day without going hypo…) Do you guys think this stems from a hypothyroid issue as I have heard Peat talk about this on one of his podcasts, something along the lines of the liver not working efficiently…..
I usually have my last meal at about 6-7PM and am in bed around 10PM without anything to eat after dinner.
I don't know if anyone else here is familiar with this as I suspect a load of people with messed up adrenals and thyroid function are probably experiencing the same thing. Any insight or suggestions would be greatly appreciated….
Also I have been getting this pretty bad for a few years now in varying degrees, probably coincided when I started overexercising and under eating and was accentuated by Paleo BS….
Thanks.
C
"…mostly cooked rice and potatoes with plenty of vegetables and greens, animal protein with 1 meal per day or so but not all. Eat to fullness when hungry…"
Wait a minute. If we are talking about low-protein, what are the exact amounts we are talking about, to change body recomposition ? la MNP. I think I'm currently around 1g of animal protein per kg of body weight, because gaining muscle mass has a higher priority than losing fat to me, and 1g per kg of bw seems to be the lowest most people recommend. But do you think it would be beneficial to go even lower in protein if one wants to gain muscle while ideally even losing soem fat?
Man, I really need to start tracking calories for a day or two, even though that stuff sucks.
Hey Matt
I've been following the 180-lifestyle for half a year now, and i see many improvements!
I just have a question regarding fruit, which you seem to have become more fond of lately. When i eat fruit, i usually get an acidic feeling in my throat which can last for several hours. This is annoying, since it hinders my motivation to reintroduce fruit into my diet. I see that you have begun eating alot of fruit lately, and i was wondering if you have any recommendations regarding my problem. Maybe a 7 day fruit fast like you did once would solve the problem?
– Kasper
Well I have made my switch? and no, I am still unhappy and food paranoid?now I am just getting fatter and fatter and food paranoid. My cortisol was through the roof when I was underweight.
I take matts advice, I eat potatoes, tubers with butter, ghee, tallow and coconut oil. I throw in some vegetable matter and eat some meat. I get fat and dropped some of the fat. Still fat, still gaining.
My blood sugar is over 100 in the morning. It is under 75 after I eat. It is over 130 after I exercise which is a simple walk.
Am I hypoglycemic? Why is this not working for me? I am now 165lbs and only 5?5. I am frustrated. My sleep isnt better either.
What is wrong with me?. ???
And ps- with all the leangains stuff floating around, what are your views on dairy?? He seems to promote a lot of lowfat cottage cheese, milk and stuff. i thought dairy was for mass building and stuff not health and weight loss. Incredibly salty stuff too.
I'm a bit disappointed. I was really hoping the entire comments section to this post would be debating whether or not Matt was a douche or not.
I'm grateful for Matt's so called doubchebaggery. If it wouldn't have been for a really very funny comment he left on Fuhrman's blog I'd never have found 180. So keep up the smart ass comments and if that makes you a douche, then so be it.
Just coming off three days of stomach virus hell. I haven't eaten anything but toast with a small amount of butter and marmite. When my stomach was really rocky the only thing I could keep down was soda, so for the first time in 18 months I drank pop. It was very surreal. The main side effect is that the dairy is super unappealing to me right now. After living off dairy, literally for months, I just have no interest in it. I ate probably the lowest fat meal I have in two years last night: small, extra lean burger with a whole wheat bun and sweet corn (no butter). It was great and I think part of it is that fat just seems to rich for me right now. It seems the stomach virus has left me in a state of high starch/low fat eating that I hadn't intended. Since that seems to be the "it" way to eat here, lately, what the heck…
So I'm kind of wondering how much LC really did play into my adrenal burnout. My adrenal stresses were threefold: major relationship problems, carb restriction, and overexercising (pushing heavily on both cardio and weight training).
I was doing a blood-sugar controlled form of LC, meaning I would allow more after heavier exercise or when really hungry. Also, sugar (in the form of dark chocolate and maple syrup) got more of a free pass (still does :) ). It seems like my scheme may have just been some roundabout way of managing glycogen stores w/o really inducing greater insulin sensitivity in the storage depots. In fact, the evidence seemed to be sensitivity was decreasing… thus ever greater exercise :( Anyway, it was obvious by the end that adrenals were really shot.
I still find life situations can impact me pretty heavily psychologically. I used to be a very anxious type but never had any extra weight or symptoms of severe adrenal burnout. It gives me the impression that low-carbing and overexercising here were the real heavy hitters.
All of that would seem to imply you'll never fix insulin sensitivity trying to stay in range with a glucose meter. Well maybe, if you have a very controlled and gradual reintroduction of urefined carbs. But that's not what I did. I totally slammed it.
Anyway, my point is that Matt is a douche but at least he's committed to accurate information and has a fairly open, collaborative readership. Flaunting somebody else's blog post titled "I used to think Matt Stone was a douche, I was wrong" proves you're a douche.
Thanks AaronF-
I've proven myself to be a douche indeed. But come on, Danny used the word douche in the title. Why the hell wouldn't I want to flaunt that? How could I resist?
Low-carbing and overexercising are definitely heavy hitters. I went from doing great on Schwarzbein to horrible in short order once I began heavy exercise paired with it. Brutal. The only time I ever felt decent was after drinking a few beers the night before.
Chris-
That does sound like hypoglycemia and does have a lot to do with the liver, although indirectly. Like Broda Barnes's title sugggests…
Hope For Hypoglycemia: It's Not Your Mind, It's Your Liver
For whatever reason, there is a connection between metabolism and the liver's ability to release glycogen during non-feeding hours.
I used to have the same problem anytime I drank alcohol or ate sugar with dinner. Fortunately, overfeeding, and to an even greater extent eating a lot more starch, has helped tremendously.
Jenny-
Stomach viruses certainly make milk unappealing, and anything other than almost pure carbohydrate really. Not many people say, "ooh, I just threw up, a steak sounds so good right now." Last time I got really ill (campylobacter from raw milk), I consumed nothing but juice, Coca Cola (oh no I di'in), and Miso soup.
Kasper-
It's funny that fruit can be so tricky, but fruit invokes some of the strangest reactions in some people. Rashes on neck, red and cracked lips, joint pains, yeast infection, bumps on the tongue, tooth pain…
But eating it all by itself helps me tolerate it much better. It seems like I do the best with it when my stomach is its most empty – first thing in the morning. That's also when I tend to want it the most, which makes sense as the end of the fasting period is when glycogen is most depleted.
You're welcome to try eating nothing but fruit for a few days to see if that changes how it treats your throat. You never know.
Anonymous gaining weight-
I'm assuming you're a long-time low-carber prior to reintroducing carbs? I assume this seeing that your blood sugar drops after eating (low-carb induced reactive hypoglycemia):
http://www.thelivinlowcarbshow.com/shownotes/689/dr-keith-berkowitz-on-the-forgotten-blood-sugar-disorder-hypoglycemia-episode-144/
If that is the case, your intial reaction to carbs will probably be pretty horrendous, and any fat eaten with a high-carb meal will be stored as fat.
Chris-
You may also be interested in listening to the podcast on hypoglycemia that I linked to above.
Madmuhh-
I don't consume 1g per kg of "animal" protein, but probably around 1g per kg of "total" protein.
On a starch-based diet with lots of calories, this equates to only needing a few ounces of animal protein to get to that kind of level.
On dairy-
I have no problem with Berkhan and his cottage cheese fetish. I actually find cheese curds to be one of the easiest forms of animal protein to digest. Unfortunately, most cottage cheese has some additives, but it ain't the worst thing in the world. Berkhan's protein intake is extremely high though – probably much higher than what could be considered ideal.
I tried Jenny.
Geez, I am going to have to change my name to "The Real Will" or something! ;-)
That other post wasn't mine…not that there was anything wrong with it, just sayin'.
thanks matt. i went from LC to VLC to ZC to VLC to LC to HED.
so how do i fix it…? i thought i was supposed to high fat high starch?? i have…i have put on flippin record breaking weight gain, and still am. been at this for 6 or 7 months now. should i eat starch and low fat???
again, whats the dairy deal? how do people use or not use it?
as a fucked up adrenal/cortisol HED-er what do you recommend now? i still have high fasting blood sugar, i still have huge drops post meal and any form of exercise spikes the living he(( outta my blood sugar. temps are fine btw
I might try the fruit fast sometime then, but i am wondering wether the burning sensation in my throat could also have something to do with me reintroducing oatmeal with milk (pasteurized, uh oh!) as a breakfast meal lately?
This health science is so tricky..!!
By the way, Matt, I think it's natural to think that you're a douche in the beginning, since you really introduce people for a radical approach to health, which some might not be mentally stable enough for.. (Maybe because of their diet..)
OK, I have become "The Real Will", LOL! (as my cape flutters behind me)
Has anyone here had issues with vitiligo or liver/age spots?
Both started appearing about 7 years ago, along with really bad freckling on my shoulders. I started eating coconut oil and using it on my skin and the liver spots faded slightly.
I stopped the coconut cold turkey about 5 years ago (to do FAILSAFE – avoiding salicylates and amines). Over the course of about 2 weeks, my face turned brown.
Is this a thyroid/metabolism issue? Or is it because I ate margarine (tons of it) for the first 25 years of my life (I'm 38)? Do I have any hope of having nice skin again?
Miso soup sounds AWESOME, Matt. Great idea.
Stephanie C: Well, when you quit eating coconut oil did you go back to marg? I should think all kinds of saturated fat would be helpful, since sat fat helps your body deal with the sun. The way I understand it liver spots and freckles are the way very fare skinned people deal with sun exposure. Most simply avoid the sun, but that is a stupid policy that is inconvenient and has other negative health consequences. My husband freckles and this year he's been avoiding sunscreen his freckles have actually all connected up together in the places that get the most sun exposure and now it is a tan. Maybe you just have to go through an awkward phase to get to tan. I personally have to burn a bit to get to tan. I used to have to burn a lot, so I consider this an improvement.
lol, that's a funny arithmetics calculation! My body temperature seems pretty stable at 98.3 now. Phenomenal considering its' the under arm temperature. RRARF truly works.
Matt wrote:
"Physical activity today – Shower, chewing, 10.5 hours typing and mouse clicking."
Lisa's response: lol!!!!
Regarding being viewed as a douche, I like to think about Judith Butler's quote, and advice: "being in trouble is good".
Jennythenipper: Sorry about your stomach flu. Sounds like you're recovering well though!
Matt wrote:
"If that is the case, your intial reaction to carbs will probably be pretty horrendous, and any fat eaten with a high-carb meal will be stored as fat."
That's totally me….It's pretty challenging to do RRARF for me cause I've gained 15 pounds now and I'm still super hungry and have to eat all the time. I look 6 months pregnant, I guess my insulin resistance is making sure I gain it all around my belly….so sexy…..but at least I have a cleavage for the first time in my life….lol…
I didn't go back to margarine (we've been roughly doing WAPF stuff for 8 years or so). I think at first that I stuck to ghee (we were casein free at that time). I did eventually start messing around with rice bran oil and sun/safflower oils. Blech! The brown skin happened almost immediately, though, when I was still doing ghee. I did do a sudden increase in sugar right about then (whenever I take something out, I tend to add something in its place – that's why I love HED!). So the two big changes were: coconut oil out, sugar in.
I used to tan very nicely! From my childhood all the way through high school, I had a gorgeous tan year round pretty much. Once I went to college, I spent less time in the sun and became quite fair. The only freckles I used to have were a few on the bridge of my nose.
Stephanie,
I think that maybe the brown spots appeared when you started the ghee because the ghee helps move things along. Coconut oil doesn't need to go through the liver (at least that is what I've read), so maybe the polyunsaturated fats that were stuck in the liver weren't affected by the coconut oil. Ray Peat says that eating enough sugar, and I don't think it has to be white or processed sugar, helps protect the body from the dangers of the release of fatty acids from stores built up from eating PUFAs. So maybe it was good that you added sugar to your diet when you switched to ghee.
I have a lot of brown spots, too. The one thing that had really helped clear up at least the ones on my hands is Chinese herbal liver tinctures, but I wasn't eating dairy back then. But I didn't stick with the tinctures and they came back. I just started taking one of the tinctures again this week, though, so we'll see if it works.
I'd just love to see some clinical evidence that low-carb with a sufficient calorie intake lowers metabolism. I'm skeptical and I don't see enough here to convince me. If you're not eating enough, sure, but that's with any macro ratio.
Hooooly shit. I just ate a bunch of potatoes (warranted by appetite, not actively overfeeding) and my post prandial blood glucose is 198! I feel fine though, which is the weird part. My fasting blood glucose is jumping all over the place too. Hmm. Is this normal when really opening the floodgates on starch? (I feel fantastic, by the way)
Thanks for your response Matt, I guess it takes time to heal Hypoglycemia like it took time for me to get it, it seems to be getting better slowly but steadily so will just have to wait and see and continue the good eating…. Thanks for linking the podcast I look forward to listening…..
Chris – I recently developed the exact same problem. After some weightlifting, I had no starch around so I binged on raisins and fruit (also had some wine) for a carb refeed. This destroyed me — couldn't sleep, became sick, shaky, panicky, sweaty, light-headed, and had headaches. I was quite low carb prior to that (and worked out fasted).
It's been a horrible couple of days. I've been consuming ridiculous amount of food. Never had anything like this before.
No idea what to do. I've been eating lots of starchy carbs (as well as fat and protein). Helps for a bit, but then the same symptoms come right back. I'm pretty scared. It does seem to be getting better as time goes on though.
Thanks for that podcast link Matt.
Matt: "I feel bad about the overthinking thing. My site is like a refuge for health thinkaholics anonymous. I'm an enabler. The significant others hate that sh*t."
Oh this is hysterical! Although, I do find it distressing to find out there is yet another anonymous meeting I should be attending!
Why oh why can't I just be normal?
I read an interesting bit of info about high cortisol blocking estrogen in the brain and causing hot flashes, have you heard of this? That would be good news because I just assumed it was menopause. Although the hot flashes do come when I am out of control with sugar.
My name is Sarahsmile and I'm a thinkaholic.
Katerina, did you eat any fat with the potatoes?
Matt, if someone's hunger instinct is f'd up because of eating disorders, addictions, LC diets, etc., how do you determine when you need to eat? I was hoping my blood sugar monitor would reveal a magic number that correlated with hunger, but I find I can feel hungry when my blood sugar is 75 in the morning or 99 a couple hours after a 900 calorie meal. I often have intense gnawing in my stomach even when I just ate. How does someone go about getting a natural sense of hunger back.
Big meals knock me out. So does a big portion of carbs, or fat. Should people like me just eat x calories of a 'safe' composition every x hours until the body can get back on track. I know that is further perhaps down the path of overthinking, but just winging it based on f'd up hunger and craving cues isn't working. Thanks, S.
PS. I think you were probably a douche a couple times, but aren't we all.
Matt,
You know full well that what Atkins said was that *any* diet tends to shut down the thyroid over time. No need to manipulate the quote to suit your agenda. :-)
Betsy- Yes, I ate about a tablespoon with all the potatoes.
I've been getting BG readings all over the place. I think I should have one set meal that is consistent in portions and ingredients everyday to see the trend of BG readings over the next little while. I think Matt suggested this, but I tend to forget about those kinds of things when I'm in the kitchen. When I'm hungrry, I'm hungry *now*.
———
This is oddly correlated to pounding taterz – my back flab/skin is completely gone today. I'm actually really happy with my body comp right now! All this starch is doing me wonders!
Do tell, Katerina, could you expand on your pounding taterz recipe. I'm getting tired of mashed, baked, and homefried.
I was wondering if you ate fat with the potatoes because of what they say about fat buffering blood sugar levels. But I just realized, maybe that means it buffers it from falling too low. Well, keep us posted on your numbers. I don't know, my abdomen is not looking any better yet.
Also, how many pounds of potatoes can you eat a day? I can only handle about 24 ounces and that's before peeling. I just cut out wheat again, though, and I'll stop eating rice for awhile and see if I can bring it up. I also eat some blueberries a couple of times a day.
I just bought some red potatoes, and they make much better homefries than the golden and russet.
I've been really digging golden potatoes with a bit of butter, salt and pepper, and a nice dash of dried rosemary. I cook my potatoes to death in the microwave. I like them a little chewy :]
Just listened to the podcast, really good stuff. Made me think that eating smaller regular meals maybe the best way for those of us with adrenal fatigue to approach things. It has been my experience in the past and is probably why someone like me with delicate adrenals always had best results eating smaller balanced meals and snacks…. Actually after a few months of HED my appetite is now regulated and I have dropped 1-2KG's and have an inclination towards smaller mixed meals.
@ Kyle: I am not surprised at all, part of the reason my adrenals are screwed is in a big part thanks to Paleo eating especially because I did a pretty high fruit Paleo diet, basically feasting on the stuff after workouts and early in the day. Made me mega panicky and anxious……
I would suggest just going high starch, with moderate levels of fat and protein. Use them for taste more than anything. And lay off the fruit for a while…
Chris,
I seriously doubt that it's the fruit that caused your adrenal problems. Fruits relax the adrenals and work against to much stress in the form of high adrenalin and cortisol. The chemical strcuture of the sucrose also helps the thyroid to regenerate and the liver to convert T4 to the active T3.
Thanks Jannis. It is an interesting perspective and is similar to what JT has told me in the past. The problem is if I have too much fruit as part of a mixed meal or alone I will feel shaky, cold and anxious.
This did not used to happen to me before I started Paleo/IF/low carb and started suffering from a host of symptoms. I have had no tests done so it is my assumption that my adrenals are screwed but it could also be hypothyroid which I definitely have to some extent even though blood work came back normal.
I still eat fruit though just in moderation plus I tolerate it much better later in the day, I regularly eat an apple as a mid afternoon snack with no ill effects…..
Hi Matt, Everyone
Sorry to post off topic, but I was just curious if anyone here has ever noticed an emotional (huge and no real reason for it) downturn after eating a high carb, high calorie breakfast?
In my case it was 2 large potatoes with 2 eggs and loads of butter. I didn't want to waste the potatoes so I ignored my bodies signals to stop and stuffed them down. I was just thinking that perhaps this could spike blood glucose and mess up the neurotransmitters or something. I pretty much never feel that bad and it'd be nice to know what triggered it.
Taylor-
Me too. Like I mentioned, I did not see a drop in temperature from prolonged low-carb with high calorie intake. What I experienced could be more attributed to adrenal fatigue or upregulation – or perhaps straight up excess adrenal production. But I only ate below 50 grams of carbs per day, which is about the cutoff between LC and VLC, for 30 days.
Kilton9-
Wasn't trying to tweak the quote, just felt bad about writing the whole thing out again for the sake of redundancy. I did clearly mention calorie-restriction, and we have been discussing whether the negatives associated with low-fat diets are a result of cutting calories with that in an attempt to lose weight. This would make sense considering that the lean half of the global population predominantly eats less than 20% of calories as fat (Almost all of rural China, India, Africa, and South America).
My recent surge in body temperature and improvement in body composition helps to convince me.
Katerina-
That's a hell of a blood sugar surge. In my experience, this is short-term after reducing fat. The fact that you feel better and are getting leaner simultaneously is a testament to that, and my reaction has been identical. Still, that number must start to come down, so keep an eye on it and keep us posted.
Chris and other hypoglycemics and people having appetite regulation issues-
There is no doubt in my mind that eating very frequently (every couple of hours) of mostly starch-based meals will be the most effective at actually reversing and overcoming hypoglycemia and adrenal exhaustion. Remember, it is the adrenal hormones that keep healthy people satiated between meals – they rise when postprandial insulin levels fall a couple hours after eating and trigger the release of stored energy. Without that, however, and producing way too much insulin in proportion to glucose ingested as seen in hypoglycemia, you will get hungry shortly thereafter, and traumatize the adrenals in the process.
The best way to avoid hypoglycemia symptoms is to eat protein every couple of hours throughout the day, but Broda Barnes understood fully that this made the root problem worse. I think you'll find small portions of starch grazed upon throughout the day to be a much better route in the short-term to getting through the early stages, and moving towards actual recovery, not just symptom management.
For those wanting to increase body temp. but concerned about weight gain, I will state rather emphatically that when fat intake is low enough, fat storage becomes extremely unlikely, even eating above maintenance calories and gaining scale weight.
For a better satiety signal, eating more less-calorie-dense food (vegetables, potatoes, yams, beans) instead of calorie dense foods (butter, oil, grains, nuts, dairy) – particularly starches which will raise leptin the most, are the way to go.
In-
Feeling drowsy after a meal, having really negative emotions (irrational crying, depression, anger), and other things are symptoms of poor glucose tolerance. However, I think you'll discover over the coming weeks that any negatives with eating a large mixed meal start to vanish.
Many, if not all of us have experienced some degree of this – along with skin breakouts, digestive problems, and other things that popped up in the short-term but subsided in a matter of weeks.
On the high everything diet that you talk about in your free e-book, how important is meal timing and frequnecy if you wanna raise your basal body temperature. I know you say that we should eat natural whole foods in unrestricted amounts. But does the timing of our food intake and meal frequnecy make a significant difference?
That's a great question anonymous, and one that I think we're still trying to figure out.
Part of the benefit of overfeeding is simply bringing the temperature up, but for others the more major advantage is allowing adrenal hormone output to fall (rest).
From a strictly physiological standpoint, if a person's adrenal glands were really in need of rest to achieve any level of healing, the greater the meal frequency the better. Also, the greater the ratio of starch to fats and proteins.
In addition, as Peat has alluded to in some of his work, a higher fruit consumption might be better for nourishing the adrenals and also allowing them to rest up.
I think there's probably great flexibility there, and it's difficult to determine exactly what would be best on an individual basis.
There's a lot of discussion on this site about exactly what foods are better than others or how to time meals or how much to eat or in what ratios.
Honestly, the more I just go with it, the more I learn to rely on biofeedback on not stress the food environments I can't control. Back before I every really started caring about eating healthy, I just ate whatever I wanted, whenever I wanted, and I scoffed at ideas such as low fat and low sat-fat. Interestingly, I think it tended lower protein, lower sugar, although I wasn't afraid of sugar.
I know I toasted my adrenals. I know they're still delicate. I know if I really wanted, I could eat smaller more evenly spaced meals, and eat a higher ratio of starch. But seriously, I don't care. Two hours later and I'm supposed to think about food again? Seriously? F that! How long are you going to keep that up? A month? I eat wheat. I eat potatoes. I supplement with Brewer's Yeast. I also drink coffee and eat dark chocolate. Good, bad, symptom of not fully healed adrenals… I don't know. But like with my alcohol consumption, it will regulate itself where it needs to be once I stop worrying about it and let my body heal itself how it wants to be healed. And yeah, it is probably doing some self-medication a la Schwarzbein.
And I suppose another concept I'm latching onto is going with the flow. If I feel like eating a big pancake breakfast, fine. If people brought 8 bags of chips to a potluck, fine. A diet has to be functional. The important thing is that the overall trend is in a healing direction. I've got a fair ways to go and I just won't be able to maintain a high level of diligence the whole way.
Also, don't know if it's because of my shifting attitude, but my belly seems a bit slimmer. I'm at a low level anyway… just enough for someone to notice but I would still be considered skinny. Personality matters more anyway. That goes for females too. Yes, I do notice body shape, but I would say facial structure and personality are huge factors. And yes, I was scared of ballooning away. I think what helps is knowing that focusing on adrenal sufficiency and insulin sensitivity is more important now. And if the body doesn't regulate back to a normal weight in time, then we have other options like leangains or MET or IF and Matt (and the readership here) will cover them. But you gotta be okay with putting your health first and taking the long view.
Oh yeah, and I can easily pose the way Richard Nikoley (or some others do) and look like a scrawny b**tch with no body fat. He needs to turn sideways and let it all hang loose (the way he captured Matt in video in his Poor Fat Matt post).
Wow, damnit, double post. I hate errors on web-page submissions. You never know what the heck is going on.
I was also gonna say, we should have a debate on sugar on this blog sometime. Probably in a forum, or set up somewhere special. I find it interesting how Ray Peat's advice on sugar seems almost contrary to Weston A Price. Price advocated low sugar intake due to low nutrient density, even with raw honey and maple syrup. Ray Peat on the other hand states that sugar has a lot of important metabolic effects, is probably the least damaging energy source, and (I think) negatively correlates with degenerative disease.
I've noticed my body craves maple syrup way more than plain sugar or HFCS sweetened packets. And whipped cream drizzled with a bit of maple syrup. Yum! That's the best way to sweeten it.
Aaron I like your style, it is the way I am approaching life now. I think a lot of my problems were not only caused by diet but also my obsessive militant views on foods. Now I pretty much try to avoid veggie oils and HFCS apart from that I eat everything (I lean towards healthy food anyway by nature) and do not watch portions just eat until my stomach tells me enough is enough, so meal sizes vary…..
How much Brewers yeast are you taking BTW, I started a few months ago and really like the stuff….
Matt, can you do a post on breatharianism, cuz I just don't know what the fuck to eat anymore, when to eat it, or why. Wish I could just not eat. Or wish I could just be a fucking rebel like Aaron F and follow my own road, but that nearly killed me, as all my roads lead to folly.
I want to try the HC/LF but where are you guys working that you can eat a potato every two hours! I pulled a burger patty out of my purse at the symphony once, (to my date's dismay) but I don't see whipping out a potato.
Plus, isn't meat/dairy fat the most nutritionally dense food available. Why not just eat smaller amounts of that with some starch versus huge amounts of starch? What exactly is all this starch doing that is so beneficial?! -susan
I was just reading about different methods of cooking causing different degrees of leukocytosis, and the article said that sugar, because of the process used to make it, does cause leukocytosis. The article goes on to say that eating raw foods along with cooked can balance out the problem: i.e., sugar eaten with fruit wouldn't cause so much of a problem.
Aaron-
Great comment. As a long term approach, that is really valuable advice, and as long as you are progressing in the right direction the strictness of any program does not matter. That's one reason why, in the free eBook, I stressed that overfeeding is something to do for a month to get a jumpstart, but certainly didn't want people to become obessessives over anything.
Susan-
Drinking milk all day increased body fat, decreased lean mass, and gave me severe chest pains. 1 month of eating very low fat and the chest pains are almost completely gone, muscle mass is back up, and I feel 100% better. Body temperature is even higher.
Every 2 hours wasn't really a commandment either, or meant to be taken as such. I just mean eating with greater meal frequence vs. going long periods with no food whatsoever.
Again, someone who suffers from actual reactive hypoglycemia will eat this way following their own instincts anyway.
But for healing shot adrenals, I don't think there's any question that the best way to heal them up in the shortest amount of time would be to eat and sleep all day.
Chris-
I sprinkle a fair amount on top of things like pancakes and potatoes. I sprinkle it on bread too and somewhat in salads. When I do an egg and potato breakfast, I find salsa and Brewer's Yeast on top of the potatoes to be really delicious. Salt and pepper are the only spices I use.
As for total amount, I keep a teaspoon inside the can. There's maybe one to two teaspoon fulls per meal maybe a couple times a day. I'm also taking Vitamin C (with Bioflavinids) and Magnesium supplement (and occasionally Calcium). This gets less convenient the more social the setting so I also have a natural source B-complex in pill form and a stress complex in pill form (which is like all of the above and is targeted for adrenals). The price adds up but is probably worth it.
My views on food were obsessive militant as well. I remember being very self-conscious and nervous about taking blood sugar readings and then spending all this energy figuring out how I was going to deal with the next communal meal. Then I would be all obsessive about how high my blood sugar went. There would be all these surprises that would just make me more paranoid. I remember having a post-prandial on an evening meal of PB&J of 160-something and I was just like WTF? It was totally out of place at the time. That kind of stuff doesn't happen to me anymore. I can load up on potatoes or popcorn (or pancakes)… just doesn't happen. And yeah, I'm still periodically checking blood sugars. But I'm with Matt; Just make sure the trends are going the way you want.
I think at the time I started LC I was definitely starting to tip towards metabolic syndrome. The glucose meter told me so. Blood Sugar 101 and GCBC definitely pushed me full on into LC. The obsessive, militant views did more damage than maintaining the status quo would've done though. But it's coming around. I definitely know a lot more about what screws up the body and what doesn't than I did then. So overall, I'm glad for my health journey.
Susan-
Funny stuff. Breatharianism and pulling a hamburger patty out at the symphony. You cracked me up twice.
Oatmeal with nutritional (brewers) yeast – the powdered one from Premier Research is really good – with butter/coco. oil and a bit of cottage cheese – its a tasty start to the day! I am supplementing with B vits too though as my body doesn't seem to be absorbing them without supplementation. My grandmother is 100 and has taken brewers yeast her whole life – and eaten a lot of sugar – so I second the request from Aaron F that Matt look into sugar and Ray Peat's views v. Weston Price. I haven't eaten sugar most of my adult life – and I have had more problems than my grandmother – but that is no doubt more due to my long history of calorie restriction v. her lack of calorie restriction. I think calories are everything! I think all that talk of calorie restriction extending life is utter rubbish.
JennytheNipper – do you think marmite is ok? I used to love it but then Russell Blaylock's book re: MSG put me off it.
I really enjoy the brewer's yeast as well. I add it to rice dishes and potatoes and of course popcorn. That is a must. I think many people stand to gain from megadosing on b-vitamins, particularly B6. Reading more Roger Williams lately didn't weaken my beliefs about that by any stretch of the imagination.
As for Peat's beliefs about sugar, he seems to base much of this on insulin and absorption rates, which I think is a major error. The last thing people need to hear in the day and age when sugar consumption is by far at an all-time high is that sugar is healthy.
As for sugar in fruit, that's totally different.
But when you reduce grass to a white powder, it is a major liability to consume a significant percentage of your calories in that form.
Great article. I was wondering what experience anyone has, including you Matt, on fasting blood sugar. I know Matt's blood sugar is rock solid, regardless of the amount of carbohydrates he consumes. But after a 12 hour fast my blood glucose was at 50. I do exercise, eat healthy, eat over 300g of carbs a day, but is this a sign of being in good shape, poor adrenal health, or just a fast metabolism? I'm thinking it could be a combination of low adrenal function and just having a fast metabolism, but what are anyone's thoughts on fasting blood sugar regarding one's metabolism, adrenal function, and overall health? I know in the past people have commented on hypoglycemia, so is the cure just a couple weeks of high starch feedings, or 5 small equally balanced meals throughout the deal, which I know manages the problem but probably doesn't fix the underlying cause. Thanks in advance for any comments.
Are you guys talking about Nutritional Yeast or Brewer's Yeast, cuz they are not the same. Nutritional Yeast tastes much better, I can't stand Brewer's on anything.
Ryan, the more I test my BG, the less I think it has to do with how I feel. Mine stays in a very tight range (80-100)that Matt and my doc says is ideal. But I still feel like crap, have outta control cravings, low energy, etc.
AaronF, you would not believe the places I've whipped out my meat when I was VLC. I remember being at a poker game and everyone is going at some pizza and they look over at me and are like …are you eating a stick of butter? Hey I still took their money. -susan
Hey I'm Chris Wolf. I've been a type 1 diabetic since I was 11. I've tried alot of diets and eating habits, few good, some bad and some detrimental.
Any restricted calorie diet has been negative and I could never really stick with it.
The last diet I was on was from homo optimus (dr K). It worked great for a while. I was calmed, relaxed, and generally a good good happy feeling, the opposite of calorie restriction. The bad part was i became exhausted. I could barely lift any weight at the gym and after my first workout I was spent! I also noticed my temp was going down into the 96 range. I had no body heat for my partner and would go into cold sweats. It also gave me another bout with ED. Within a few days of stopping I regained my long beloved body heat and manly functions. I totally agree with the adrenal hypothesis in vlc diets. Here is a little food for thought as well.
When I was on the low carb diet my insulin resistance went up!!!!! How you say and more importantly how did I know??? Well since the only insulin my body gets is what I inject and I had to fight to keep my blood glucose below 240! Some of this I believe was do to dairy fat creating inflammation in the body (inflammation increases insulin resistance).
While I was low carb high fatting, my body had to adjust to the switch from fat metabolizing to fat metabolizing. I got lean quick and my muscles filled with glycogen and I looked great!
To adress the adrenal problems more closely in my experiance I will say eat a better balance. The key for Blood glucose and insulin control is to keep it in a steady medium. Not too high not too low. The main factor is protein, not alot. If for breakfast you have just starch or fruit you will crash and the stress your body feels is killing your adrenals at the same time. Protein add with the meal solves the problem. Protein in the blood stimulates the liver to slowly release stored glycogen (sugar) in to the blood. It is not the only factor but a key factor. Maintaining a steady balance between the two hormones (insulin and glucogon) is the best in controlling hunger and weight. Buy the way glucogon is what they inject into diabetics that have passed out or went into a low blood sugar comma! Bolth are a powerfull hormone and when unbalanced will make dieting very dificult.
hypoglycemic Chris / Matt – Yeah, I've quickly learned to avoid sugar since this hypoglycemic reaction. Just eating a small plum made me feel horrible. Why is this? What about fructose makes it so metabolically poisonous?
I've been eating a lot of zucchini, rice, and veggies, which has helped a lot. I'm definitely getting better, though I'm still suffering the residual effects. Nights are particularly bad (going to sleep at 6 A.M. now because my sleep schedule was so thrown off by the original sugar binge) Just trying to listen to my body, rather than forcing another high-fat low-carb meal down my throat like I used to.
Thanks for challenging the low-carb dogma Matt. I stubbornly kept eating that way despite obvious signs of detriment.
Kyle,
I don't think that fructose is destructive. But if you have problems with hypoglycemia, you can get hypoglycemic just by your body reacting to sweet taste, and fructose tastes very sweet. I got hypoglycemic from taking stevia before. It confused me a lot.
VERY interesting Hans.
Kyle-
Another theory floating around out there is that fructose malabsorption can cause hypoglycemia, as the body releases insulin when it is ingested, but when it is not absorbed as sugar into the bloodstream it causes a big crash.
Yet another is that the body reacts to fructose like a carbohydrate, and when some of it is converted to fat there is too much insulin per unit of glucose floating around, causing a dive in blood sugar.
There's no doubt, after following the work of Melvin Page, Terry Shintani, and several others that fructose causes the greatest blood sugar instability of any other sugar.
Hey Matt,
The more I re-read you, Robb, and Martin's work, the more I think that if one consumes quality food (let's use Paleo, including butter/cream and tubers, to make things simple because I think we can all agree that Paleo food is quality stuff) in the appropriate amount (calories controlled) then one could maintain or lose fat no matter the composition. What do you think? I'm asking because I like the flexibility to have more sweet potatoes or fruit on some days while keeping carbs fairly low on other days. I count my calories to make sure I'm doing alright (not undereating or overeating) and as long as I'm eating good food I would like to think that my fat loss goals won't be hindered (eating 11 x bodyweight, so ~2,250 calories per day). As always, good discussion and thoughts are appreciated. Thanks.
Your e-book about increasing body temperature is quite intriguing. In your video, you mention Mark Starr's book, Type 2 Hypothyroidism. He says that one of the physical manifestations of hypothyroidism is the accumulation of mucin beneath the skin. This is seen as having thick skin in the upper lateral arms. Other signs of this include a puffy face. I believe he says that this is called myxedema. It is also my understanding that symptoms of hypothyroidism may manifest when not enough calories are ingested, especially when there's nothing wrong with the thyroid gland itself. So my question is this: If you try to raise your basal body temperature through nutritional overfeeding, do you think that this thick skin (myxedema) will go away, or is this skin condition exclusive to hypothyroidism due to a malfunctioning gland?
Mark-
You can lose weight on any calorie controlled approach, and lose mostly fat on any calorie-controlled approach. The benefit of the whole foods approach is that your own hormones can work with you, and have you reduce your calories automatically instead of using a calculator to do it. The advantage is that appetite is reduced while metabolism stays up vs. calorie restriction on processed foods which has the opposite effect. That's the difference. When refined carbs are taken out of someone's diet, caloric intake can drop by up to 40% with no negative impact on metabolism. Clearly there is something fundamentally different about a whole foods vs. refined foods diet.
Anonymous-
Mucin can definitely decrease and decrease dramatically when body temperature rises. While a deficient gland is a different scenario than a low body temperature (and why Starr distinguished between what he calls type 1 and type 2… just as in diabetes where type 2 is NOT from a deficient pancreas), I believe that the vast majority of cases of low body temperature have nothing to do with thyroid gland dysfunction.
Thought you guys might be interested in this series! So heres a link!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00t24qy/Big_Meets_Bigger_Argentina/
Interesting. I read over this article and the ebook the other day and came back to make a comment on mucin and someone else just beat me to it.
Have you actually seen someone with extreme Type 2 Hypo symptoms, like heavy myxedema get better? I just read Starr and was wonder where he had been hiding the cameras. I have an appointment with him in August, but will most likely have to cancel it due to finances. Anyway…
I am a total hypocrite nutritionally, but tend to buy into the Taubes view of metabolic function. It seems that the primitive people living on something other than 10-30% protein and the rest mostly fat are the exception and not the rule. I just watched Wise Traditions UK on Vimeo and the british guy, who's name I am not going to look up, pointed out that when they can get it, every primitive people lives on mostly animal fat and some protein.
I recently got a comment back from Dr. Harris over on Paleonu.com and he shocked me with telling me to eat only the minimum structurally needed protein of about 75-100g! Zone, Eades, etc. would have me eat 150-200 given my LBM. Harris told me to eat the rest as fat and to add 25g Protein if I went ZC. Could it be excess protein causing the LC hypothyroid issue?
I lost about 80lbs. in five months on VLC, which was almost always by lifestyle in a semi IF fashion. But…I hate very high protein. I put all the weight back on and now my metabolism is fucked. I have total Starr symptoms and have for a while.
In Starr's book, he talks about Dr. Barnes having to drop off a 1000cal from 3000 to 2000 when he increased protein and had to double his dessicated thryroid.
So, my question, after a admittedly non-linear rambling post, is Starr just fixing Type 2 Hypo by turning up the temp with extra thyroid? Is Starr wrong about blaming the thyroid in these cases? Is temp to blame and low temp able to create similar symptoms? Have you tried overfeeding with ZC and focusing on the bare minimum of protein? In a quasi IF fashion? That would seem to be the most Paleo and fit the lifestyle of the bulk of primitives.
Sorry, just on info overload, totally confused, and feel like shit. I don't think I know what to eat now, even if I had the will power to eat right.
It just seems to me that you ought to be able to fix this problem without going to foods that our ancestors would have had no access to. Danny over at Carnivore Health seems to be attempting this with tubers. He is still scrawny after 2 years of pemmican, maybe he just needs to double his pemmican or add more fat.
Oh, and you do strike me as kind of a douche, but look in your closet. If you're over 26 or so and still wearing Hollister or Abercrombie…guilty. A lot of my friends are a little douchey.
Re: Douches…hilarious
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDCPK4MiolQ
Sorry for the multiple posts. Google said the the URI was to large and kept locking up. When it was all said and done, it posted three times. Trying to delete 2 but it is not working.
That's what I get for the douche joke.
A
Dude, what's with the multiple posts ya douche!
Starr is just bringing up a low temp. with desiccated thyroid, assuming, as Barnes did, that a low body temperature was a sign of a faulty or underperforming thyroid gland regardless of what blood tests revealed.
I think that's a huge mistake. I don't necessarily think the thyroid is screwed up, but the body is keeping the metabolism low – at least in cases in which thyroid hormone levels are shown as normal. But low body temperature is something to be seen in nearly everyone who loses massive amounts of weight. That's because leptin tells the thyroid what to do, and the more weight you lose, the more likely you will dip into a functional state of starvation in which thyroid activity is reduced.
Cases in which massive edema is seen does happen in starving people – like in Ancel Keys's starvation study, even though the young men weren't technically hypothyroid, just in a functional state of starvation which can happen even if you are 100 pounds overweight.
Good luck with Harris and a very low-carb diet, or Barry Groves (the British WAPF guy). I think those are dead-ends though, and that a "paleo" diet was just the diet that human beings were forced to eat when moving into Northern climates that they could survive in, but were not designed for.
Keep in mind that 99% of the 3 billion lean people on earth eat a high-starch diet.
Ah, Douche! ( That's pronounced Doosh-ay. It's a douche related version of Touche.) lol.
Re: multiple posts, your comments function went weird and acted like the comments were failing. I deleted the extras immediately. Sorry about that, but it was Google's bad.
So, that's interesting. Your arguments boil down to these two then:
1. The paleo crowd is right in looking to man in his 'natural' state, and right in looking to pre-agricultural man, but have not gone back far enough to find the actual diet our genes are keyed to. That diet would be an African diet or a tropical climate diet, with plenty of starch on hand year round. Am I correct in my summation?
2. Barnes and Starr are both correcting a condition, which shares symptoms with classic hypothyroid, and that responds to the same cure, dessicated thyroid, but that is not the same condition. It is rather a condition in which leptin in confusing the thyroid gland. The real cause is body temp and that can be fixed without thyroid supplementation. Correct? I still ask have you seen the particular myxedema of the upper lateral arm go away with your diet? Just curious.
So, what historically is the parameters of the ideal diet- the diet we evolved on? What kind of starches? Tubers? Is there an ideal ratio of macronutrients in this older viewpoint? What civilizations typify that now?
Now, assuming I did HED and corrected my low body temp, which by the way was 96.5 oral temp, after walking upstairs and making a french press of coffee, but not drinking any. I have become extremely obese, 375. I had never been able to become over 325 until a major stress hit, which came 6 years after the great LC 80lb. drop from 325 to 245 in five months. LC and High protein. Assuming that works, how do I lose the fat after that? How do I keep metabolism high and create fat loss?
Sorry to push, I am just literally at the end of my rope and now you're throwing me answers re: Starr etc. that I have been literally praying for. I look like the pics in the Starr book. Big. Bloated. Asian eye slits from puffiness. Supertired all the time. Sleep apnea etc. I turn 40 in October and men in my family have had quadruple bypasses at that age. I don't want my life to nearly over, but I am not sure who to believe anymore. Taubes made soooooo much sense. Stephanson's experiments with the Inuit seem irrefutable. But the thyroid/body temp issue remains.
Blame Danny at Carnivore Health. He unleashed this paleo wanna be on you, by doing his post.
Thanks,
Andrew
I already blame Danny for everything.
Dear Paleo wannabe…
People have certainly decreased cankles and puffiness in the face following some of my ideas, and certainly raised body temperature.
I would think a good thyroid hormone panel would be useful in your case, as you may legitimately have some form of thyroid disease or dysfunction, not garden variety reduced metabolism from dieting/poor nutrition/stress/crappy heredity (your case for sure)/excess omega 6 in tissue
But in general I can't help but try to steer you towards a starch-based diet with plenty of fresh vegetables, minimal fat intake (at first), and not much added animal protein at all at the highest calorie intake you can tolerate. You are likely to see an increase in body temperature and a decrease in appetite in short order, in which case you may be able to accelerate fat loss by no longer eating above appetite except one day per week as mentioned in the most recent post on Joel Marion.
On the exercise front, rapid, explosive movements just a few minutes twice per week can be sufficient to help raise body temperature as well. Hard at your weight I know, but worth mentioning.
I also think that, given the severity of your situation, that desiccated thyroid could be a damn miracle for you my boy.
But I'd much rather you call 1-800-Dr. McDougall (not an actual number) than continue to try to push the low-carb thing – which is a great way to run into a dead end and the worst diet ever for someone with obvious hypothyroid symptoms (in my belief).
I did a thyroid panel again recently and it came out on the low end of normal. My mom, and they say that is comes from the mom's side, had thyroid cancer and had half of it cut out. I am definitely playing with bad genetics on both sides, health wise. Luckily, the genes made me also look half my age and good looking as well. lol.
I bought some raw thryroid, that also has a little raw adrenal in it off Amazon, but only tried it for a few weeks. Saw some decrease in my face myxedema.
After watching a bunch of Sally Fallon stuff, I am starting to think the primary issue is just eating only real whole food.
So, how about some numbers. Protein? Carbs? Fat? Calories?
You are saying I should HED, then I could only overfeed once a week like the latest article on your blog?
I do remember now, a few years ago, I did the Six Pack Prescription, by the founder of MetRX. I ate basically everything I could get in my mouth other than fat and worked out 4 times a week. I loss fat and gained muscle on that. Could have been metabolism repair.
Maybe I should just hit the dessicated thyroid until I'm under 200 and then figure all the details out of how to get off the stuff. Hell, if it's cheap, and I feel good, and I don't die, who cares?
Thanks for the patient responses. You are officially deemed no longer a douche in my eyes. Just don't wear Von Dutch or use Axe body spray. lol.
Cheers.
Andrew
I've been diagnosed with Crohn's disease and have been on the Specific Carbohydrate diet for 5 years now. It works great, I'm pain and (ahem) symptom-free and I'm off all meds. But I wonder if there's any way to get off this diet? Besides being a pain in the ass, I think I end up eating more meat than veggies – because it tastes better – and I've had low body temp for many years.
Any words of advice?
Andrew,
If I had to come up with a blanket "system" for people like yourself it would probably be to:
1) Spend 30 days eating beyond appetite of mostly unrefined starches and vegetables with a little meat/fish/dairy and saturated fat added and plenty of rest and relaxation – with or without thyroid supplementation, but it's always nice to find out if you can "get away without using it."
2) Lose weight similarly to how you might have in the past – a low-fat whole foods diet built primarily around starches paired with hard but short-duration exercise – but with 1 day per week of very low-fat starch overfeeding.
Kat-
I'm not entirely sure, as I have never been there to guide someone from GAPS/SCD to a high-starch diet. The premise is that intestinal villi are damaged, and that once repaired, starch may be successfully digested. I know that Campbell-McBride even tries to get people back to eating grains over time. She does not view SCD as a life sentence.
As for me, I have had good luck in terms of repairing digestive function – recently fixing my digestion to be able to eat beans without gas, bloating, or pain (after 5+ years of avoidance), by doing some high-calorie (up to 30 bananas a day) fruit fasting (for about a week, maybe 2) followed up by a switch to starches.
There's no doubt in my mind that it can have a very therapeutic impact on intestinal flora and bowel function, and my bowels by the end of the fast (perfect) compared to the beginning of the fast (almost diarrhea-like) while eating the same way hints at major overhaul and improvement.
Perhaps that could be a transitional shortcut for you as well, but there are many ways of speculating as to what would work the best.
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Hmmm no actually as of right about now my temp is 98.8. Funny thing is 8 months ago it was barely 96 at times, my secret you ask? eat more, and no not more carbs. Still to be honest, no change in how I feel and I'm not "metabolically ruined". So I still believe its more complicated than you may perceive.. but wait, I wouldn't want to mislead everyone, as you Matt, I feel have done, because it is important to clarify I'm no doctor, and I do not even hold a degree in a science (not yet at least but soon ;-), which is funny you quote Faigin who is neither a doctor.. but I pretty much follow the diet he recommends which is pretty low carb, with one to two days of meals ENDING with a meal of carbs.. Anyways, your are totally entitled to your opinion (and your opportunity to make a sale) but I don't think eating a ton of carbs solves anything either. And I'm not zero carb but definitely low carb which why I think you should really rename your post.. and personally I'd rather be lean with a low temp (if thats the take home message) than fat with a higher temp..
I have found a great deal of benefits from eating fermented foods such as kraut, kefir, and kombucha tea, and would recommend them in any diet, especially with those who have any digestive problems. I have also seen some benefit to eating coconut oil, and I eat a lot of smoothies packed full of greens and fruit. Most of the food I eat is whole and unprocessed.
Unfortunately, despite my best efforts in providing my body with good nutrition, I still am plagued with chronic fatigue, and have been for a number of years.
If anyone has any advice on how to alleviate fatigue, I would be most grateful to learn more.