Here are a couple of fresh new videos about Triglycerides – little fat molecules that hang out in our blood, tissues, and liver. The first is an ode to what you can do to lower your triglyceride levels if that is an issue, and what metabolic effects can be expected if you do?(reduced leptin and insulin resistance and a corresponding decrease in the appetite to metabolism ratio, increased energy levels, and so on).
The gist, for you video haters out there, would be to:
1) Increase the starch to simple sugar ratio in the diet – particularly fructose found in soft drinks and juices
2) Reduce alcohol consumption
3) Increase fiber intake (unrefined starches instead of refined starches)
4) Decrease the omega 6 to omega 3 ratio in your diet (which can take years to take effect)
5) Eat solid foods, and no liquid calories
By the way, the shirt says “Arnold is Numero Uno,” his vintage shirt from the movie Pumping Iron. Chris from http://www.zentofitness.com/ should like it.
Next up is a simple video on why the belief that “spiking” insulin again and again leading to insulin resistance as portrayed by various low-carb authors is a myth. Excess triglycerides appear to be the predominant?cause of insulin resistance, not spikes in insulin from a high-carbohydrate meal. If the latter was the case, rural Asia and Africa, home to a diet consisting of 60-90% of calories as carbohydrate,?would have the highest, and not the lowest rates of obesity, type 2 diabetes, and metabolic syndrome.
For more specific guidelines’that can?assist in?overcoming hypertriglyceridemia using diet and lifestyle change, please read DIET RECOVERY.
Last but not least – It’s About Friggin’ Time (AFT) for a new 180 Kitchen Video. This time – it’s my all-time favorite without any shadow of a doubt.Click here to become a Corn Star.?
Hi Matt
I have bought a packet of oat cakes and the ingredients are wholegrain oats (86%), palm fruit oil, sea salt and sodium bicarbonate. Just wondering if you would class these as a high fibre food – they have 8.6g of fibre per 100g. Also, is palm fruit oil a high omega 6 source?
Thanks heaps for all your good work.
Thanks Matt, it's great to know that we can reduce the triglycerides production in our bodies. I think I'm doing just that on your RRARF program!
I'm eating more carbs. I'm eating lots of fruits though…but nothing liquid. I never drink alcohol. I love starch, I cut out almost all Omega 6. I eat only solid foods. Should be in good shape. lol….
Too much heat wave where I live to eat much anything but fruits today….
Interesting that they could keep the fructose in the diet of the rats and still reduce insulin resistance by just reducing Omega 6 and increasing Omega 3. I think reducing my Omega 6 reduction has really helped my with my endometriosis which is an inflammatory disease. I cut out olive oil and that was a big one that I used to eat with every meal every day. I also cut out avocados and guacamole that I used to be really into.
Trying to loose my RRARF weight gain now. It's not that easy. I could do it in a week or two in my old ways of eating less, but that would lower my basal body temperature. Now I'm going to have to be patient and allow it to take like a year. It's a challenge….
Thanks for reminding us about the issues of low carb diets. When I was on a low carb diet, I remember that I regularly did this google search "risks of low carb diets" and came up with nothing useful…..it took getting to your site before I got it. So, really, thanks again so much, you're doing a great job helping people out here!
For anyone looking to Omega 3's for reducing triglycerides:
"The most popular way of arguing that fish oil will prevent heart disease is to show that it lowers blood lipids, continuing the old approach of the American Heart Association's "heart protective diet." Unfortunately for that argument, it's now known that the triglycerides in the blood are decreased because of the fish oil's toxic effects on the liver (Hagve and Christophersen, 1988; Ritskes-Hoitinga, et al., 1998). In experiments with rats, EPA and DHA lowered blood lipids only when given to rats that had been fed, in which case the fats were incorporated into tissues, and suppressed mitochondrial respiration (Osmundsen, et al., 1998)." – Ray Peat
Matt, would you include green smoothies in the category of liquid calories (i.e. leafy greens/water/fruit, and some coconut oil)? I find them an easy way to take in a lot of fibre.
Thanks.
Meighen
Meighen-
Yes. But a smoothie using whole fruit isn't exactly a quart of apple juice.
Mish-
Not sure about the palm fruit oil, but assume it is low in all PUFA. As for fiber, your typical American gets something like 10-12 grams of fiber per day out of over 3,000 calories. So that's obviously off-the-charts compared to foods in most people's diet.
Hey Matt, the only thing that I'm trying to reconcile is the alcohol thing. My doc had run blood tests and my HDL was low (somewhere in the 20's) and he told me to drink a glass of alcohol every day and sure enough, validated by bloodwork, alcohol has significantly increased my HDL. I'm wondering what the magic amount is that won't raise my triglycerides, yet keep my HDL up.
Thanks Matt, that was a great summary about fat and insulin resistance. You've gone quite a way from Kwasniewski etc. :)
I think the one and only big mistake was to ban fatty animal foods. It's just simple as that. It would have been much wiser to increase the amount of things that was seen as healthy in research comparing sick and disease free populations.
I'm glad that we are finally reversing that stupidity.
Hi Matt, Totally agree that the current overload of fructose, alcohol and refined carbs form the main culprit. But an "overload" of starches will cause abundant synthesis of triglycerides too. As you know, dietary fat alone does not cause high triglycerides, but combining high carbs with high fat may be the worst. My point of view is to avoid overloading in general. Find the right balance that fits you.
I noticed you are not against whole grains and potatoes. What is your opinion on the bad consequences (like auto-immune diseases) the lectins in these kinds of foods may have?
VBR
Hey Matt, thanks for the info and mention. You know I love that classic scene from pumping iron lol.
I also suspect that a high intake of omega 6 can be a huge factor in raising Triglycerides. As well as under eating…..
My aunt is a vegetarian who eats fish and a bit of dairy (forgot what they are called) and she has constantly high triglycerides and she is very skinny yet hardly a picture of health. I definitely put her problem down to high 06 intake as as well as refined sugar plus the constant diet she seems to be on (this combo is probably the worst thing for tri's…..
Great videos BTW. I just stuck up a post on fruit http://goo.gl/bgnD and have stuck in a little video at the end about the "hibernation diet" would love to get your take on this theory and the science, think you will find the vids interesting….
Anyway from taking a little fruit/honey before bed I have noticed deeper sleep and no middle of the night waking (hot and sweaty, surely Blood sugar related) like I used to get when eating my last meal at 6-7PM and going to bed at 10-11PM……
I disagree with this theory. I have always had excellent triglycerides; well below 50. But my insulin had always been higher than optimal, since I developed PCOS when I was 19. My insulin was NOT above range, but it was higher than desirable. My insulin is starting to come down (nearly in the desirable range; optimal is 10 or less and at last draw my insulin was 14. Range goes up to 22). However, my triglycerides are still as low as ever. At last bloods my trigs were 43.
Matt, when are you going to get some bloods? You do a lot of experiments, but without empirical data, it’s hard to really judge your work. Your great blood sugars for example could be from rushes of insulin driving the BG down. Not saying that it is the case at all; but it is an example which shows how bloods could be illuminating. It would also be great to see how your adrenals have shored up now that more carbs have been introduced.
Hi Matt, I wanna have my alcohol and be skinny too. I'm trying to be good all week and have a blowout which would include a moderate alcohol binge,as well as food binge, like what you suggested would keep leptin resistance good a while back. I'm always starving the next day which leeds me to believe it's not a good plan. I know your not a big supplement guy but I'm always searching for the bullet which would allow me to have that weekly playday. Why again does alcohol wreak such havoc? I'll keep searching since you do.
During the time I drank wine every day, I had high HDL *and* high LDL, but very low triglycerides. Wine provided the only liquid calories I ever took in, and I never ate sweets or junk food.
Since I can't seem to tolerate alcohol anymore (even one glass ruins my sleep) I'm curious to see how my #s have changed. I fear lower HDL, same LDL, and higher trigs — but maybe not? I don't put too much stock in those numbers, but they're interesting.
Matt, I would also love to know your (or other's) opinion on the Hibernation Diet.
I actually bought the book of the same title last year and was taking a tablespoon of honey before bed in hopes of not waking at 3 am any longer. I didn't stick with it long enough to see results as I was scared off after reading the low carb blogs. :)
Matt,
Would milk be an exception to rule #5 about no liquid calories?
Sorry for my extended absence. It's good to be back. Thanks everyone for all your support while I was away.
I was gonna post this on the personal update section but couldn't find it. Alright, so I think I am finally (it seems like it's been forever since I started RRARF, only 2 months) getting some metabolism repair done. I'm up about 1 degree to 97.1 and my weight has slowed down and pretty much stabilized. I think that was mostly due to the higher starch ratios of my diet the for the past couple weeks. The only thing I'm waiting to get better is my skin. I'm at a crossroads and a little lonely, can somebody meet me here?
I'm about sick of trying to overeat every meal. The thought of eating an extra bite of food past fullness makes me wanna gag. My wife was watching me eat and she said I looked like I was torturing myself. I guess that means my body is telling me something. I'm just unsure what I need to do. Do I need to take a break and eat to appetite for a while? Or keep chugging it down? Teach me sinsei, teach me.
Oatcakes are great. I've lived off of them for months at a time. Watch what oils they put in and watch for added sugar. Some of the store bought ones are loaded with extra crap. Nairn's plain are pretty "clean" and there is a decent brand in the UK that comes in a clear plastic wrapper and the cakes are cut into pie-shape triangles. I'd avoid Walkers. I have tried many times to make my own oatcakes, with dripping in the old school method. I've never had them come out very well. They always come out sort of gray and lumpy. If any one has an oatcake method they'd like to share, I'd be all ears.
Oh I forgot to post this!
Last night I tallied up my numbers for my dinna (in milligrams):
Fat: 28,000
Carbs: 76,000
Protein: 46,000
I didn't realize how much protein I've been eating I guess because of all the milk I drink. I took 3 blood sugar readings an hour post prandial and it was 78, 80, & 88. That's a huge improvement for me. I think I'll try a higher carb:fat meal and see how my body reacts.
I think the issue may be more complicated. When I was low carb my triglycerides where 35, but I could not tolerate the slightest bit of carbs without the BG spike and brain fog, fatigue, etc. occurring. My gut feeling is the micro nutrients maybe be key components in insulin resistance.
The triglyceride blood test only tests free fatty acids in the blood. It does not detect the level of triglyceride in muscle and liver tissue, which causes insulin resistance. That was the difference monitored in the little rats that didn't produce the acyl coA:DGAT1 enzyme.
Fat competes with glucose. The more fat present, the more insulin resistance. The more glucose present, the less insulin resistance, as a general rule.
But remember that the blood levels of free triglycerides is only one component, and the least significant component. You can have a fatty liver from alcohol and/or fructose consumption and still have normal or low blood triglyceride levels.
Chris-
I'll check that out when I get a chance.
Johnny-
Actual force-feeding is not something you can keep up for long. Back off and just move into eating to appetite. Keeping protein a little lower I believe will help as well.
Lynn-
I will get some blood tests done when I have health insurance, more than $1,000 in my bank account, and undergo hypnosis or something to keep me from passing out when I get blood drawn. So, sometime between now and when hell freezes over.
Hi Matt,
Good post. However, I'm confused as to how you can reconcile your line that "Fat competes with glucose. The more fat present, the more insulin resistance" with your earlier report that you had excellent blood sugar control while eating a lot of fat and starch together. Can you offer clarification on this?
I am eating loads of fat (mostly butter and tallow and occasionally coconut oil) at every meal, while also ensuring that every meal has a good starch source (usually a large sweet potato or close to a pound of beans). I am consuming liquid calories in the form of raw milk (1-2 gallons per week). Moreover, while I get outdoors, I have yet to do any serious "working out." Finally, though my temps can reach 98 during the day, they seem stuck in the high-96 range in the morning, implying that I'm not exactly hypermetabolic. And yet, in spite of all this, my weight (which is basically right where I want it to be) has thus far refused to go up. It has been very stable for three months. So… Would this be a reliable indicator that I am NOT becoming insulin resistant eating high fat with starch?
By way of additional information, I'm eating more fruit in the hot weather but don't eat much out of season, I eat low-PUFA, consume almost no alcohol, and my only weight problem in the past was being underweight. Perhaps these things help explain why my weight has remained so stable?
Matt,
Would homemade raw milk kefir be ?liquid calories?? I can’t imagine cutting it. It keeps me from having ‘sore guts?.
Love it when you post videos! Very informative, Matt.
Mike-
Those should remain in balance just as our weight should remain in balance when eating to appetite of ANY diet, assuming we aren't eating out of addiction which I think is a different scenario.
Also, during the time my blood sugar was falling, my body temperature increased by over 1 degree F. As body temp increases, the rate of lipolysis or fat burning increases as a general rule. And my appetite was falling too of course.
All of these factor in, but there is still a lot more to it. Keep in mind also I was very strict about no sugar or alcohol when my blood sugar was at its lowest – so no de novo fatty acid production and lots of fat burning going on.
Also, the higher you go in carbs and lower in fat, the more you reduce fat oxidation.
So at one extreme you have reduced fat burning and insulin sensitivity and on the other you have insulin resistance and very high fat burning. The two sort of cancel each other out – leading us back, once again, to the fact that it's not all about macronutrient ratios.
I was hoping to show in my BG experiment with overfeeding that the metabolism reigns supreme, and that the higher you go in weight above your set point via overfeeding the more you increase fat burning and become insulin sensitive (also reducing fat storage, as the body fights harder and harder against weight gain the farther you go).
I guess it's sort of a glass half empty half full kind of deal.
You can look at the fat:carb combo. as getting insulin resistance and reduced fat burning… Or you can look at it under circumstances of high-calorie intakes and see increased fat burning and increased insulin sensitivity.
But I still think eating 50% fat and about 35% of my diet as carbs was probably bass ackwards, and resulted in too much fat gain on the way to lowering those blood sugars and bringing my temp. up.
If I had to do it all over again, I would go more like 60:30:10 CARB:FAT:PRO with plenty of high-fiber carbohydrates.
Funny but looking at your percentages Matt, mine aren't far off although I usually average a little more protein. But I vary what I eat sometimes and with that I may have lower numbers across the board at times, but I'd say the ratio would be similar. For example last week I had a day that was 54/18/27 (carb/pro/fat).
"I will get some blood tests done when I have health insurance, more than $1,000 in my bank account, and undergo hypnosis or something to keep me from passing out when I get blood drawn. So, sometime between now and when hell freezes over".
_ You don't need health insurance to get bloods done. There are dozens of private lab facilities dotted around the US, where no rx is required.
– Do you always pass out when blood is drawn? Is that the main issue?
Blood tests are expensive without insurance.
Hey Matt,
I am doing well so far, I have been doing your revised RRARF, focusing on carbs for 2 weeks so far. My skin looks good, I have been mostly feeling good, I do seem to be gaining a little weight though…and getting closer to my menstruation now I am feeling very anxious and emotional, I am wondering if I need more protein at this time of the month, perhaps. I did have a steak tonight, I am going to go with my instincts about protein.
My temperature has gone from 96.9 to 97.6! I am feeling optimistic about that. So what is next for me after my 30 days is up? I stop overfeeding and just keep eating well-balanced meals to appetite? I am assuming that the weight gain will drop off, if in fact my metabolism has quickened? I am open to what you think I should focus on next.
Oh yeah, also, I have been sleeping 8 or 9 hours a night, which is excellent for me. I used to sleep 6 hours or so and wake up a lot…I have very bad sleep apnea, I would stop breathing 112 times per hour.
The sleep clinic aide told me it was the worst he had ever seen. My oxygen levels would dip below normal 5 times per hour. This was sending my cortisol levels through the roof according to the sleep doctor. Imagine that. I have been sleeping with a CPAP machine for 5 months or so. I don't know how much you know about sleep apnea but the sleep deprivation messes up your leptin and grehlin levels, the low oxygen levels put your body in distress raising your cortisol levels, your metabolism lowers, blood pressure goes up, etc. I understand this dynamic much more now that I have been reading your books and blog.
So, to see so much improvement is amazing. Thank you.
Matt I used to get nauseous and nearly pass out when I got my blood taken. Now that I have to do it all the time, I noticed if I ask them to use the tiniest needle and if I look away and keep talking I can get through it just fine. I have super small and not too many veins so if they use a big one, I have a baseball sized bruise.
So you are not alone in the blood letting wuss factor.
xo
What is all this talk about Oaties, they sound pretty weak? Some old fashioned Scottish Farls (using whole oat flour like the Scots would have) are much more badass and 180 appropriate.
Also, would it be correct to summarize RRARF as tricking your body that it is fat or getting fat but also raising metabolism to counteract this? Because don't already overweight people produce a ton of leptin as they have continually ate past the point of being full? But by doing this they might have created a resistance? Help me out Matt, I lost an argument with a friend, who studied hormones effecting food cravings, when these issues came up.
Don't have tme to watch teh videos, so sorry if youv address this Matt- what about the high tricglyceride levels among the CVD-free Kitavans?
What about that idea popular around here a couple months ago in the Milk Diet era that blood chemistry might be more a marker of dietary composition than disease? The Massai being another example of a group that has an alleged disease marker- clogged artieries, yet no heart disease. Do you still jive with that? Or does the chest pain you experienced after the milk diet (which you I believe attribute to the high fat composition) make you think otherwise? And if so, how do we isolate that as the variable and believably pinpoint high (saturated) fat as the cause of chest pain in your case or anyone elses?
Not trying to be a dick here, but I wnt to be duly diligent here about switching my understanding up time and again.
Also, with booze- certainly it can be associated with some nasty health consequences, but there's no way I'm going to give it up just because some evidence says to. Especially when the booze I consume is almost entirely high quality homemade or artisanal stuff. Quality matters a lot I think and anyway, I'm not giving it up and see no need to personally. I don't want to keep chasing my tail here to health. Forgive me if I'm maybe a little punchy here as I'm enjoying my recent foray into taking seriously that notion of not restricting what I consume, and it sure does feel good.
Rob-
That certainly was an interesting idea – that lab values are a reflection of dietary composition, and potentially irrelevant. I'd like to believe that. The Kitavan triglyceride levels aren't that high though. Close to 100 if I recall, which is considered low. Clearly they are not insulin resistant from these triglycerides. Once again, it's probably not the blood values that are significant, but the accumulation in muscle and liver tissue that is the real determining factor. On their very nutritious, low calorie-density diet, that is not an issue.
Keep in mind that the mainstream belief about insulin resistance is that it is caused by eating more calories than you burn, a phenomenon that happens automatically in susceptible lab animals when given highly-palatable, calorie-dense lab chow… but not whole foods rich in fiber, water content, etc. like the diet of the Kitavans.
I think you should eat whatever the heck you want Rob. The recent banter here has been about what a person might consider doing if they desire to lose some body fat. Losing body fat is not always automatic, or a simple matter of just eating less and exercising more.
Katie-
All good things to hear. With a long history of health problems like that, it seems like focusing primarily on the health improvements and taking a patient, long-term view on your weight would be the wisest option. As you transition off of eating more than you desire to eating to appetite, you'll probably feel better emotionally from a higher fat intake – a more "balanced" diet.
Jazzbound-
How dare you lose a debate!
Both insulin and leptin are appetite-suppressing hormones. So when the cells become unresponsive to these hormones (resistance), you get hungrier even though you are producing more satiating hormones. It's not the level that counts, it's the functional amount.
No one knows all of the ins and outs of what causes leptin and insulin resistance. If overeating caused it, then force-feeding people would cause greater insulin and leptin resistance. However, it doesn't. It causes greater insulin and leptin sensitivity, which is why it becomes progressively harder to gain weight the higher your weight goes.
If it worked the other way around, you'd see people here overfeeding and NOT gaining weight for months, and then suddenly they would start gaining weight, getting hungrier, and having more intense cravings. It is, of course, the opposite.
If overeating is somehow the cause of insulin and leptin resistance, which it may be as overeating on a high-sugar, high-alcohol, high-omega 6 diet will lead to massive increases in de novo lipogenesis which DOES increase insulin and leptin resistance… then one must look at why people are overeating.
In laboratory study, it's quite clear what causes overeating…
Hereditary susceptibility, highly-sweetened foods, flavor enhancers, concentrated fat, addictive substances, rapidly-absorbed foods, liquids, and calorie-dense foods are all known factors that lead to increased food intake and excess body fat accumulation.
Of course, that is the "Western" diet. I'm tending to believe that the above factors are the primary factors causing metabolic disease, precisely because they cause the ratio of appetite to metabolism to get out of whack in susceptible individuals.
There is a statement above That I am willing to admit I might be misunderstanding; but it isn't the first time I've read something like this on various sites. In this instance it is concerning the Massai and their "clogged arteries."
I have read about tribes with completely clogged arteries who consume loads of fat yet have no heart disease. C'mon now….think about that. If you point to dietary habits and the lack of disease then that is one thing. But when you point out impossibilities that's another. If they had "no" clogged arteries after a high fat diet, then I could be impressed. But clogged is clogged and no heart attacks is the equivalent of telling me you are going to completely clog up a pipe and still have water run through…not possible and not advisable. That isn't health….that's magic….can't happen. Clogged means nothing gets through…no blood and the heart doesn't work.
Clogged isn't what anyone wants even if they could somehow live. Clean is always better.
Like I said….maybe I'm misunderstanding?
Jazzbound: yeah, but my farls fail. If you have some tips I'd be glad to hear them.
My temp was 97.5 this morning! I was sipping on some milk when I was takin it so I don't know if that counts.
I'm listening to Jimmy interview Datis Kharrazian. It's pretty funny. With a sly grin Jimmy says, so what's all this business about checking your body temperature? The doc says well, that's a little outdated. We now check for T3, T-globules, blah blah blah. Then Jimmy says, well all my levels were normal and I still have many of the symptoms of hypothyroidism. The doc says, well you didn't get your blah blah levels checked and your blah blah can change. Eat some taters boy!
Jenny: For about 2 lbs of potatoes I end up using 1/4 to 1 cup of oat flour (I soak, then toast the groats and then 'em up) depending on how much moisture is left in potatoes after boiling. After TB of butter and some salt, add flour until a dryish dough is created. Frying without sticking is the hard part. With a non-stick pan you can get away with dusting the pan with flour but on my stainless steel one I have found this impossible and usually us a mound of tallow to do the job. A dusted non-stick baking sheet at 350 in the oven has worked before, just takes longer but would work for a larger batch. I don't know if they are traditionally like a thick crispy cracker(thinner) but I usually just keep the outside crispy(thicker, and more bread like in the center). My first batch did fail but that my experience. Maybe Matt can enlighten me us on better technique.
Hey Jazzbound, I've never used potatoes before. I usually grind up some oatmeal to make a course flour then add a bit of water and a bit of fat (butter or dripping) to make a paste. Then I roll it out using some more finely ground oat flour, from a proper mill. I've cooked them on a cast iron skillet and tried them in the oven on cookie sheets. The cookie sheet ones do turn out like crackers, but have sort of a gray unappealing color. I will try doing this with potatoes. I'm sure the potatoes will make for an easier to work dough. I have a ricer which I use for making gnocci dough, so that would probably work. I like the idea of soaking, toasting and grinding your own groats! This is one of those messy but fun kitchen projects that my four year old would love to get in on.
Thanks for your reply!
Tommy,
Peter at Hyperlipid has a long series of posts regarding atherosclerosis.
Check out Chris Masterjohn's post…
http://blog.cholesterol-and-health.com/2009/03/do-blockages-in-coronary-arteries.html
Stephan Guyenet has a post specifically on the Maasai.
Or, you can just personally research interventions that monitor "clogged arteries" on pubmed or whatever…
Tommy-
It shows that atherosclerosis is not the only factor in heart disease. In fact, it's believed, just to make things extra confusing, that lower levels of arterial occlusion are more dangerous – giving rise to unstable lesions that actually cause real cardiac events.
To make things extra, extra confusing, they have low cholesterol levels – some of the lowest in the world, that rise when they move to the city and consume less fat.
Agreed that I'd rather be clear than clogged.
Johnny-
Kharrazian has a good thing going. He recommends a low-carb diet to lower T3 and then monitors T3 and prescribes medication for low levels. Why didn't I think of that?
Matt,
What are your thoughts on the ?athlete’s paradox? as far as IMTG(IntraMuscular Trigs) in which endurance-trained athletes have similar (or even higher) IMTG levels than obese and type 2 diabetic individuals yet are highly insulin sensitive?
http://www.jci.org/articles/view/34260#ABS
Also, I know Scott Abel talks about loading up IMTG's with refeeding as well as "fat loading"
I would agree with how Lustig views the issue – that combining a high-sugar diet with sedentarism is the worst possible combo. Eating sugar and exercising a lot to burn the trigs as fuel probably yields superior performance for exercise – especially endurance exercise. I don't think it's any coincidence that the 80-10-10 peeps are all endurance athletes.
But an endurance athlete, forced to sit around and eat sugar all day will gain weight like crazy, perhaps because exercise makes them so adept at storing intramuscular triglyceride for fuel.
Like I've said, nothing can make me gain weight like switching from a high endurance exercise load to sedantarism eating to appetite, regardless of how insulin sensitive I may have been during the high-exercise period. One becomes dependent on this kind of activity level to maintain weight and insulin sensitivity. That's no problem for an athlete, but most people don't have much interest in becoming competitive runners.
"Like I've said, nothing can make me gain weight like switching from a high endurance exercise load to sedantarism eating to appetite, regardless of how insulin sensitive I may have been during the high-exercise period. One becomes dependent on this kind of activity level to maintain weight and insulin sensitivity. That's no problem for an athlete, but most people don't have much interest in becoming competitive runners."
This is exactly what I experienced as a runner. In the winters, living in Minnesota, I'd naturally back off from running. I would just not run and eat to appetite and gain 15 pounds of fat in a couple of months. It was terrible and every spring, I'd have to take it off with running except that every year it got harder and harder to do. Even doing HED with Matt's old high fat and high starch protocol (though it seems unfair to label something so delicious a protocol) I gained weight much more slowly and less of it was fat.
I think of 180 as training for building a body that can tolerate all kinds of foods in varying amounts and combinations. Think of it like a fire that burns hotter can burn poorer fuel. I've noticed that after more than a year of eating whole food to appetite I can skip a meal now and again without feeling any ill effects from it. It used to be if I was an hour or two late with the food I'd get headaches, nausea and mood swings. Now I can walk out of the house without breakfast, eat at noon and be just fine. I don't do it every day but every once in a while it's no big deal.
Matt,
I don't have any of those issues. I will normally lose weight when I stop training. Also, eating sugar does not cause me to store fat, even when i am sedentary. Schwarzbein had the same experience, she said she stayed skinny by eating sugar instead of starch.
You also have to view the type of exercising you were doing before becoming sedentary. If you are coming from a period of long duration cardio, then you have been training your body to STORE fat!
I know a mailman who was a sugar junkie when he had his mail route. When he gave up his route he went from being whippet lean to having a gut. Worse than that he also got Type II diabetes. The endurance to sedentary trajectory can be devastating I think. Matt's struggles and self-experiments with figuring out a healthy way to do his summer hiking regime are a huge community service. If you could crack this one dude, it would be big.
That's so nice for you and all weight lifters, JT. There has to be a better answer than just "running is bad. Endurance sports will kill your metabolism." There has to be a safe way to encorporate endurance sports into our lives. As all those trendy books announced recently we evolved to be distance runners.
"There has to be a better answer than just "running is bad. Endurance sports will kill your metabolism." There has to be a safe way to encorporate endurance sports into our lives. As all those trendy books announced recently we evolved to be distance runners."
Actually jenny, this is an area of the Primal Blueprint i really agree with. I believe chronic cardio is not healthy, whereas lots of low level stuff like walking, occasional sprinting and lifting heavy things is much better.
Thanks for your reply, Matt.
So if I'm understanding you correctly, your earlier comment that "The more fat present, the more insulin resistance" does not necessarily apply on a hypercaloric diet?
Also, I guess I'm still confused as to why I'd want to reduce my fat intake when: a) it's not pushing starch out of my diet; b) I'm generally always hungry no matter how much I eat; and c) my weight seems to be inhumanly stable no matter how high my calorie intake soars. Is there any reason I should try the 60:30:10 carb:fat:protein ratio you wish you had followed when I'm not putting on excess weight eating closer to 30:55:15? For example, could a higher ratio of carbs to fat be expected to be more satiating and raise body temperature faster than my current higher ratio of fat to carbs, even assuming my weight would remain unchanged either way?
Jenny,
I don't think I was clear with my post. I am not saying that sugar is always good and endurance activities are always bad. Both will depend on the individual.
I am familiar with the theories on man being evolved to distance running. It is possible, and it is also possible that we have evolved to store fat when engaged in these activities as well. This is not a bad thing because it would help with survival to become a fat burning/storing machine. Being unmuscular with a little extra fat is not necessarily a bad thing. But, if your goal is to become lean and muscular for purely aesthetic reasons, then long jogging probably isn't optimal path to reach your goal.
Regarding the retired mailman, his case is similar to many retired athletes. They learn to eat massive amounts of food to fuel their huge caloric requirements. This is not so bad when activity levels are high, but once they retire and become sedentary they have to reduce their calorie intake or they will have big problems. Just think what will happen to Michael Phelps if he eats the same when he retires from swimming!
Jedi wrote:
this is an area of the Primal Blueprint i really agree with. I believe chronic cardio is not healthy, whereas lots of low level stuff like walking, occasional sprinting and lifting heavy things is much better.
I think it depends on your goals. For simple health I agree. As a fighter (what I was doing before my heart attack)interval training was what helped me stay where I needed to be. I would say the same holds true for any endeavor. I would also tailor my exercises to mimic certain aspects of fighting as well as time. Now that I'm not fighting I still train in a similar manner only not as intense and not as often. It's the model I'm used to. I toned it down to just keep me in reasonable shape. But I also do intervals and I lift things. kettlebells, light weights, medicine balls, stair runs, bag work, pushups and crunches, plyometrics etc. I'll be 54 soon and as I get older I will probably tailor this to the same type of training but less of it and even less intensity. "BUT" I feel good and often wonder why I would have to slow down….how far can I go? I really haven't changed much in my workouts since my 20's and 30's. I was actually doing more in a lot of areas. In recent trainings I have actually gained speed. Before dropping 15 lbs I gained power also. enhanced mechanics.
I like the Primal idea and had been incorporating similar ideas into my fight training before. I believe in promoting what the body likes to do already naturally. "Play."
Run, jump, duck, climb, twist and bend, lift etc. I don't do cardio. I move hard and fast for short periods mixed with short rests and active rest periods. But now I've shortened everything. 30 minute trainings for a hard day and other days 15-20 minutes sometimes only 10.
Matt, is it OK to do power yoga, like three times a week or would that be considered excessive exercising?
Yeah, but the anthropologists are saying that we used to run down deer and antelope. That's not mere "play." This would be two or three hunters running chasing the animal for hours till it literally died of exhaustion. There was a funny story on This American Life about some distance runners who tried this and got their asses kicked by the antelope.
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/80/Running-After-Antelope
I see what you're saying JT, that from a survival POV the lean/fat cycle that comes with doing endurance exercise seasonally might actually be a good thing.
Jennythenipper said…
"Yeah, but the anthropologists are saying that we used to run down deer and antelope. That's not mere "play." This would be two or three hunters running chasing the animal for hours till it literally died of exhaustion"
Wouldn't that be more like "interval training?" :)
They couldn't run indefinitely so they would probably run at speed (sprint)then rest (briefly)huff and puff with hands on knees for a few seconds then continue….like I do!!! lol
Also their running would have to be sporadic with many direction changes as well as speed (fast and slow) and jumping over rocks or bushes….falling, crouching and hiding etc.
I look at these things as templates not rules. They had a purpose. Our purpose is a little different. We aren't doing it for survival (to get food) we are doing it for health. I like the idea of taking what original man did and using the general idea fashioned to fit our needs.
"Yeah, but the anthropologists are saying that we used to run down deer and antelope. That's not mere "play." This would be two or three hunters running chasing the animal for hours till it literally died of exhaustion. There was a funny story on This American Life about some distance runners who tried this and got their asses kicked by the antelope."
…Or you could lay around relaxing waiting for root vegetables to grow, while fishing all day and be healthy like a Kitavan… that is the life I want
Riles,
I am with you on that man!
Tommy,
No, I don't think that is how they ran the animals down, even though it is popular with the paleo guys to promote this. It seems like it is probably just some type of "primal" fantasy. I do think it is a good way to train even if it is not an accurate depiction of what "Grok" did.
Google barefoot running and the Taramuhara indians. This is probably a more accurate depiction of how they would run down big game, because there is no way a human could ever sprint and catch a deer or any other big game. What we lack in speed and power can be overcome because of our superior endurance.
Lisa,
Yoga 3 times a week is not even close to excessive exercise for most people. I think for most people it would be the BARE minimum needed to get any benefit. But, if you have some sort of illness then it could be. If this is the case then nobody on the internet could ever tell you if this is too much exercise for you. You need to see a medical professional that specializes in this area to see if it would be appropriate.
Jenny, Tommy, Riles:
Hunting a gazelle seems more like an interval marathon to me according to this video on how we are able to hunt by out running(or outlasting).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUpo_mA5RP8&feature=player_embedded
Seems pretty fun compared to diggin' up potatoes (Not hating on the tater's) but definitely a different type of workout.
JT, actually I agree with you that Grok wouldn't have run after his prey. I mean after all who would? The idea is not to scare it off so he would have been more likely to hide and catch his prey off guard or trap it. Especially with primitive weapons. Man vs animal on foot is no match.
"I'll be 54 soon and as I get older I will probably tailor this to the same type of training but less of it and even less intensity."BUT" I feel good and often wonder why I would have to slow down….how far can I go?"
I honestly do not think that you would do yourself a favour with having less intensive workouts. You might automatically lift a little less as you grow older, but I do not think that it is beneficial to consciously reduce the intensioty, because you are "getting older". I actually think that is the reason why some old people get weak and fragile very quickly, because they think they need to take things slower and lighter.
I personally would try to push myself as hard as before, but then again, I'm 19 and probably do not know as much about exercise as some other peeps out there.
Hello Matt,
Interesting points of view you mention on your site. I have not had the opportunity to browse all the articles and as a result I may be offering something that has been discussed before.
I pose the question, could the places where carbohydrates, such as grains, account for 60-90% of the diet, and those people being healthy on that diet be attributed to nutrition value of the land? I know of cultures based around grains where people have had loss of teeth and others peoples teeth were not at a loss. Could a part of the difference be in the land used to grow the food? As an example selenium levels I am told are higher in some areas of Africa, whilst in Australia I am told they are naturally low. Grains grown in one region may not have the same value and impact on people's lives should they require those particular nutrient elements. One could also consider land that is over used and reliant on external supplementation of missing nutrients. Software based nutrition data does not take into consideration that the same food is not the same everywhere.
Another example may be of food processing, where processing of non organic avocados utilizes a chemical that may increase some enzymes which may some people may be sensitive to, whilst those same people may comfortably eat an organic avocado that has not been processed in the same way.
madMuhh,
I understand what you're saying but that's not exactly what I meant. My wording…sorry. I also said "how far can I go?" That is my real goal..never stop. "BUT" some things just happen as we age. I feel great and can get real good intensity in my training just as I always have. The problem is that I don't recover as quickly anymore. Now I have to take advantage of rest. So when I say "tailor" this is what I am talking about. I can still go intense but I can't do twice per day {hard} workouts anymore or more than a certain amount per week (less than before) otherwise I overtrain. Also, I'm not fighting anymore so some of the intensity would be pointless and possibly detrimental. As you get older you might find that "sometimes " there comes a point of diminishing returns. Keep in mind that with my new heart condition I have to alter a few things also.
Thanks
Just to clarify something in my last comment. The sentence regarding cultures and teeth is probably not a good example. I can not support it with evidence. It is broad and general, and an observation made originally by someone on ideas they had between thirty to forty years ago. They comparing an eastern European region to unspecified African region. I mentioned it because I saw a commonality in a carbohydrate oriented diet between the two areas.
Tommy,
It seems like humans actually did run down big game. They would run them down until the animals would collapse. But, it was not in the sprint rest fashion that the paleo people promote. It was more like a long slow pace that the ultra marathon people run.
Tyber,
Of course all of that stuff matters. That is why you have to experiment and find out for yourself what types of food are best for YOU.
"JT, actually I agree with you that Grok wouldn't have run after his prey. I mean after all who would? The idea is not to scare it off so he would have been more likely to hide and catch his prey off guard or trap it. Especially with primitive weapons. Man vs animal on foot is no match."
The problem with this theory is that weaponry doesn't appear in the fossil record until long after humans were bipedal. I think the organized group chase where three or four men would take separate a single animal from the herd and then tire it would probably be pretty effective. Also a tired, disoriented animal would be easier to chase off a cliff which is another hunting strategy that utilizes our big brains but not necessarily any tools, other than a simple rock at the end.
Hey Jenny,
I was just looking at your blog and you mentioned your co-op carries grass fed beef bones and other similar items. Which co-op is that? I'd really like a source for that stuff in the Twin Cities that is not ordering from farmers. Thanks!
Riles,
Regarding IMTGs, check out metabolic supermice. They eat more, weigh less, live longer, and have 5 times the IMTGs. It's tough to extract much for improving human diet, but there's no harm in trying–plus, it's just kinda cool…
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2491496/
RE: Grok chasing down animals. Everything everyone has been saying sounds reasonable and makes sense. But! What I believe in more is the fact that unless we were there we really can only make an educated guess at best. I'm not going to concern myself with it to any great degree. Find what works "for you"….variety is best IMO.
Perhaps I'll do a post this weekend specifically on how various types of exercise impact intramuscular fat deposition.
JT-
When I was lifting weights and doing short-duration cardio (20-30 minutes) and stopped exercising I would lose fat rapidly. When stopping hiking 10-15 miles per day I would get very fat very fast. Various forms of training have very different effects, and there's no question that endurance exercise makes the body more adept at storing intramuscular triglycerides to be burned as fuel. That's why long-duration cardio creates huge exercise dependency to stay lean, even if doing it makes you super lean.
Here's more on the pivotal importance of intramuscular or intramyocellular fat in insulin resistance…
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11756334
Low-carb may not increase blood trigs, but it does probably cause a massive increase in intramyocellular fat, thus increasing insulin resistance dramatically.
Lisa-
Power Yoga is probably fine if you enjoy it and feel invigorated by it. More on exercise soon.
Oh and JT, give us a break with the "sugar made Schwarzbein skinny" crap. She reports being an underweight and nervous young kid who ate nothing but sugar and then blew up like a balloon after puberty and started growing facial hair due to Stein Leventhal Syndrome – caused by insulin resistance. I wouldn't call that powerful evidence to support that sugar is a healthy food.
@Matt:
You said: "When I was lifting weights and doing short-duration cardio (20-30 minutes) and stopped exercising I would lose fat rapidly."
I experience the same thing. I still do little to no cardio, but I do weights regularly. I never lose weight after my workout days, but I always drop a ton after a rest day. Do you know what's up with that?
Matt,
Give us a break with the sugar/fructose phobia. Just because you have a bad reaction to it doesn't mean that everyone else does. Maybe once you completely heal your metabolism you will react positively to it. Or, maybe it is just not a good food for YOU, but still healthy for someone else.
I never said that sugar was healthy just because people use it to stay skinny. She even says that she thought about reverting back to sugars once she started gaining weight on the starches.
I know of a few other women that use sugar/candy as a means to stay skinny as well. I think this is pretty common with anorexia sufferers who eat mostly candy.
Ray Peat also agrees that starches are more likely to promote weight gain.
Oh
I am getting really confused.
Which is good.. means more to learn.
Sugar vs Starch vs Cardio vs HIT vs hairy candy eaters.
told ya
deb xoxo
Hi Aaron!
Hampden Park Co-op carries grass fed beef, bison, elk and bones for soup. They also do special orders. It's still dashed difficult to get organ meat, though.
Here's a thought.
Sugar is best if you are outside, in the sun, moving, breathing fresh oxygenated air.
Starch is best if you are working office job 9-5, come home, sit in front of the TV, computer, and don't get much sun.
I think the big misconception about paleo diets is that they contained lots of meat. It's More likely to me that insects and bone marrow were prominent animal foods.
following some other animal and using a good rock on the bones after they were done with the carcass seems to make more sense.
Overfeeding on a diet that is high in sugar and fat and alcohol all mixed together while not exercising is something that people should be phobic about. Schwarzbein does not say that starches made her fat when she switched to them, and her diet is low-starch, not high-starch.
Saying that Schwarzbein used sugar to stay skinny is false. She got fat eating that way, and extremely ill. Models intentionally undereat and overexercise on a sugar-based diet, and they, along with professional football players, are more or less the unhealthiest human beings on the face of the planet.
Yet they are considered by many to be the most attractive.
So what, this site is not about trading one for the other, which is the typical scenario when people try to "get healthy."
Thanks Matt on the yoga. I also do restorative yoga so that's a good balance of things. I'm only going to do power yoga once a week for now so I don't start loosing body temperature.
Regarding running:
I saw this TV show about some native people in Mexico called "Tarahumara", I think it was them the TV show was about. It fascinated me. They all loved long distance running (100 miles plus) and the whole village would do it regularly, including all children and even pregnant women. They'd have competitions for clothing etc. They'd run with water in their mouths to make the breath moist and we're talking marathons here. They used parts of tires for shoes. The western doctors noticed that about a minute after they had stopped running their pulses were back down to normal. I guess it just shows how supreme health can allow you to do amazing things, and also just how far away I personally am from that supreme health.
Wikipedia on them:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarahumara
Matt,
You need to reread Schwarzbein's book because you are not remembering the details correctly.
You just proved my point with the supermodels eat sugar thing.
JT-
If you eat a low-calorie sugar diet you will be emaciated. If you eat a high-sugar, high-calorie diet you will likely develop insulin resistance and metabolic disease.
Also, most obese people eat far more total sugar than a supermodel, and they rarely throw it up afterwards.
I remember the details of Schwarzbein perfectly well, and how she stated, in her latest interview how she now "never eats sugar," feeling strongly that sugar was the primary cause of her health problems, and switching to a whole foods diet was the primary factor in the elimination of those health problems.
The fact that you would use Schwarzbein as an example of the superiority of sugar over starch is retarded though, so I will call you on it, because Schwarzbein is as anti-refined sugar as they come.
Lisa-
Yes, it is amazing what someone with magnificent health can do. Layla, who I have written about on this blog also runs over 100 miles a week while subsisting mostly on breakfast cereal from what I can gather. She's the leanest woman I've ever seen and told me she has never missed a period.
Matt,
you are twisting what was stated so that you can try to win an argument. Reread Schwarzbeins book because you are not remembering the details correctly. I know she is anti sugar, but not because it made her fat.
I never stated that that sugar is superior to starch, there is no reason to distort my words. I just think your phobia is a bit irrational.
Matt,
I also want to make it clear that I am not promoting a diet of sugar over starch. I think you are correct about eating unrefined starches over sugar. I agree with you that this would be the healthier diet in general.
Thanks JT-
I am not pushing massive sugar phobia, but I do know that a lot of unhealthy people on a SAD diet could have massive and spontaneous improvements in health from omitting refined sugar from their diets for numerous reasons. Part of the problem is that their livers are hypercharged to convert sugar into trigs after years of overconsumption of it.
I also think it is particularly important, when attempting overfeeding, to limit sugars precisely because high-sugar/high-fat/high-calorie/no exercise is a particularly bad combination that yields Spurlockian results.
I am also referring to Schwarzbein's much more recent interview that she did after coming out with The Program. She fully believed during that interview that overconsumption of sugar led to insulin resistance. If starch is fattening, it is only fattening to those that are insulin resistant.
@JT and Matt: Schwarzbein stopped eating sugar because it was making her insanely unhealthy, not necessarily fat. I don't want to be thin. I want to be thin *and* healthy. Important distinction.
I've been doing my own research and thinking on the sugar issue. I'm trying to keep an open mind about it and examining all the factors surrounding why sugar has such a bad reputation. Not really ready for an intense debate on it, but it's an interesting ride so far.
I think people are ignoring the distinction between eating fruit and refined sugar too much. And how about honey, maple syrup, palm sugar and that stuff. For me it makes a huge difference if I eat fruit or something with refined sugar (omega 6 or not, doesn't matter.) I get terrible blood sugar issues from refined sugar, but fruit is ok no (after RAARF and eating massive amounts of bananas for some time.) The "natural" sweeteners fall in between somewhere.
Most of the time, people here are talking about "sugar" or "sucrose" and I'm not sure if that includes "natural" sweeteners and fruit or not.
Don't know if anyone still hangs around this post, but fruit? Is it bad for a type 2?