It’s day 15 of the milk diet, and there are many more positives and far fewer negative to report than a week ago. I’ll spare you the written details and go straight into this week’s videos.
The first two videos are on the many cholesterol contradictions, myths, etc. If you think you’ve got the whole heart disease thing all figured out, then think again. There are many more head-scratchers and unturned stones when it comes to figuring out what exactly causes heart disease, atherosclerosis, and whether or not the standard risk profile beliefs are all that relevant in the big scheme of things. Interesting details about the Masai, those skinny suns-a-bitches over in Africa that are pretty much on the milk diet from birth to death, as well as the Kitavans.
And then finally, my milk diet to date report. Day 15 today – half way through. Going well, but I wouldn’t turn down some warm, salty anything right about now.
Good stuff. I think your videos ably demonstrate what I have maintained for a long time, that "markers" are not markers for disease, but simply reflect a particular dietary makeup.
The "markers" in Kitava, for example, look the same as those in the west because the so-called markers are a reflection of a high carb diet, not whether someone will drop dead of a heart attack.
Chris Masterjohn seems to think there are two markers that are typically ignored that are predictive, but I haven't talked to him about it since he and I, along with Bruce K, got into an intense debate regarding these markers awhile ago.
Bearing that in mind, I'm sticking with "markers are basically useless with no predictive value" since they "mark" dietary states, not disease states. They never had any predictive power otherwise.
Looks like the Massai diet is not as straightforward as some might like to say:
You say that eating cholesterol doesn't raise cholesterol, then you say rabbits eating a lot of cholesterol does raise cholesterol. What?
Bernarr Macfadden says that prolonged fasts can potentially cause cavities in teeth, as the body extracts and uses various minerals stored in teeth. Yet he mentions fasts for several days as being perhaps crucial to a milk diet. Any thoughts on this?
The markers thing still baffles me. We're taught our whole lives that we need all these tests performed on a regular basis, and that's how we know whether or not we're healther. Bad markers means bad health even if we feel healthy. Good markers means good health even if we feel like, ahem, manure. I guess the medical community would fall apart if everyone knew most of those tests are worthless.
You say that eating cholesterol doesn't raise cholesterol, then you say rabbits eating a lot of cholesterol does raise cholesterol. What?
I will let Matt give you the specific answer, since you asked him, but I think with a little reflection you can figure out the answer to that.
Yes, giving rabbits cholesterol shuts down their thyroid glands and causes cholesterol to rise. It's not the cholesterol itself from food. In humans, this is not the case, and their is no such correlation between dietary cholesterol consumption and cholesterol levels because dietary cholesterol is a non-factor.
In Lindeberg's book, the theme that was more common was that people without heart disease have blood sugar levels that are lower than the average Westerner, and it does not rise with age. Same with blood pressure. Same with weight.
All these of course point to metabolic syndrome. Moral of the story:
To avoid heart disease, don't be insulin resistant. Note: this has nothing to do with macronutrient ratios, and eating lots of carbohydrate or fat does not cause insulin resistance in healthy, presumably hypermetabolic people.
Matt, have you read The Great Choleserol Con by Anthony Colpo?
I know you don’t agree with Colpo’s approach to weight loss, but no other author has exposed the truth about coronary heart disease as he did, by dissecting every single study on this topic ever conducted in human history, including all epidemiological and clinical data.
And if you ever read The Great Choleserol Con, it would be nice to have your opinion on the part that explains the real culprits behind heart disease.
I haven't actually. I figured it to be very similar to Uffe Ravnskov's Cholesterol Myths, who did something similar. That was my primer when I read it in 2006, but I've snooped around and thought about it a lot since then.
I believe that the refined carbohdyrate is central to the development of heart disease, just as Gary Taubes has discovered, but without the belief that all carbohydrates somehow jump up and cause insulin resistance, which they do not, no matter what the glycemic index or glycemic load.
I really enjoy your blog, it has great content, but the color contrast really screws with my eyes….
Some people's comments are not showing up right now. I'm not sure why. I'm not blocking them or anything. Melanie, for example mentions that the color scheme drives her eyes crazy… Click on the "color scheme" button near the post titles to change it sista.
Matt, many think that Colpo’s book is similar to Cholesterol Myths, but it isn’t, at all. The GCC explains what really causes heart disease, that’s why I would like you to read it. It mentions iron lowering and other under-rated and cheap strategies that have shown in clinical research to prevent CHD, and that would complement 180 ideas, not contradict them. I have lowered my iron stores and experienced improved glycemic control, exactly what the human trials show.
And Colpo doesn’t think that carbs cause heart disease, what he says is that hyperglycemia does. He was at first a low-carb fan, but now concluded that avoiding carbohydrates may actually have the ability to produce metabolic slowdown in the long term, based on short term studies showing lowered thyroid function. That’s why he now doesn’t recommend low-carb diets.
Sounds great Max. Thank you. All in all Colpo and I have a lot in common. Mouthy, confrontational dickheads that actually go beyond limiting paradigms.
But why would a rabbit react differently to cholesterol than a human? Both are mammals. Scientists use mice to study various effects they cross-over to humans. But how are rabbits different, unless the amount of cholesterol was exponentially higher than a high amount.
Concerning high cholesterol, Ray Peat said that this would be a sign that one is hypothyroid. Broda Branes was supposedly able to prevent heart disease in his patients by boosting the thyroid.
Also, Bernarr Macfadden mentions specifically that consuming milk while eating, say, three normal meals a day is not a milk diet. He refers to the amount of milk as anything the person can drink in between the other meals. Here's my question. He doesn't comment on an amount of milk equaling the amount of the milk diet, say, eight quarts. I know when I first started my milk diet I was able to down eight quarts of milk along with about two normal meals.
Have a comment on my fasting question above? ;-)
Derek, rabbits also eat their own shit. That doesn't mean it is a good idea. We are not rabbits – our guts and whole physiology is different
Another misconception: What do they mean by "high cholesterol"? They're probably talking about the ratio of LDL vs. HDL, but were Ancel Keys and all them simply referring to total serum cholesterol? Did they know about LDL HDL etc back then? If they were talking about total serum cholesterol, that really doesn't jive with this info from spacedoc.net:
"Serum total cholesterol rises naturally with age from a mean level of 178 mg/dL in 18-24 year-olds to a maximum mean level of 230 mg/dL in 55-64 year-olds. Men over 55 and women of all ages who have the highest cholesterol levels live the longest, since high total cholesterol protects against cardiovascular disease (CVD) and infections (Ravnskov U. High cholesterol may protect against infections and atherosclerosis. Quarterly Journal of Medicine, 2003;96:927-934)."
Also, people are now saying that low HDL is a more accurate indicator for heart disease, so if doctors now have to say "your cholesterol's too low", people are going to REALLY be confused!
Rabbits do not naturally eat cholesterol in their diets. Equally as screwy is when they used evidence from rabbits (or rats) eating saturated fat to promote the lipid hypothesis. And to top it off, that saturated fat was actually hydrogenated soybean oil or something, with lots of trans-fats. There was a lot of things wrong with their evidence, so I've heard.
Hey, Matt, have you noticed any correlation between high morning basal body temperature (from the armpit)and sleeping with your gf?
My basal body temp is quite low at the moment (usually around 36.2 C) but after starting to record my temperatures and noticing that these high spikes in my temperature (36.7-36.9) only happen when I've been sleeping with a woman (just sleeping together, so no idea whether sex would affect this). After considering this, I remembered how in the past I had also noticed that I was considerably warmer during the night when I had been sleeping with someone.
Can't sleep. Hungry from night two of my two-day fast before I start up on the milk diet again. By the way, I went to 180degreehealth.com, and my Norton 360 blocked an intrusion attempt by a fake webpage, I believe.
The milk diet. While raw milk is obviously natural, such amounts of milk feels abnormally high and against the "everything in moderation" quote, unless that quote doesn't apply to whole foods and/or animal foods.
Random thought. If high amount of calories are the way to go, this is against all of my nutritional beliefs, but why not take a ridiculously high weight gainer powder several times a day in addition to normal food? Only for a short, short period of time though. Jump start things, eh?
Derek, what kind of question is that? ..one that is based on blind trust in Scientists? They are crackheads. The Mammal Species of the World lists 4629 unique species. Do you think you can extrapolate another species onto another one? this.. defies all logic.
By the way, Michael Phelps eats 12,000 calores a day! On my eight quarts of whole raw milk a day, I consume 4800 calories. Like I said before, I started off consuming eight quarts and an addition medium sized meal or two. I'm 6'3, 220 pounds, so relatively big. Perhaps I have room for more calories?
It's a fair question considering many studies on done on mice and the results are often translated to humans. Whether rightly or wrongly. I always assumed they tested on mice because their DNA was so similar to humans. If I'm wrong, relax. Take a deep breath. =)
I think it's interesting that they have the same amount of atherosclerosis yet don't have heart attacks. Maybe there is something about the combination of atherosclerosis AND a hectic stressful lifestyle that we have, that causes a problem.
Either way, a buildup in the arteries doesn't seem like a positive thing. But there are biomarkers for many diseases present in healthy people which makes one wonder if they mean anything at all, or if it is really another stressor that triggers the symptoms.
Matt, are you familiar with Dr. William Davis?
He uses a nutritional protocol for his heart disease patients based on scans of the heart that show the actual amount of plaque buildup (his book is called "Track Your Plaque"). He has basically come to the conclusion that a diet of mostly vegetables with a small amount of animal products is best (low starchy carb). He bases this on the heart scans in his patients. He used to be big on oatmeal but now he says that it's not good either. Having data that is not based on markers but on the actual result of what is happening is very convincing.
Nice find, that is an interesting website. Have you been following any of his advice with success?
I've followed Davis for a while. And I agree that the problem is insulin resistance, but I don't believe in going about it the way he does, which is limiting glucose. That may be a helpful tip and prolong some people's lives (maybe), but like my discussion points out, it's more complex. Japanese men have just as much plaque upon autospy as age-matched American men, yet they have far fewer heart attacks. There's simply more to the story than plaques and atherosclerosis, which the Masai show us.
As far as Davis's protocol, if he were able to help his patients overcome insulin resistance instead of starving them of glucose, then I would approve of it more. I think ultimately that would be addressing the core problem, and is what I aspire to deliver. He has found some solutions. I hope to find better ones, and believe that I have. And most importantly, what we know of native populations with no heart disease does not, in any way suggest that carbohdyrates have anything to do with heart disease.
A virus did get onto my homepage. Supposedly it will be cleared up later today according to my tech guys. Son of a…
Cholesterol is not meant to be ingested by rabbits, so their body's were having almost an autoimmune reaction to it, and they had the same physical consequence as thyroidectomized rabbits.
As for your fasting question, prolonged fasting – like 20 to 30 days is what MacFadden is talking about. Shorter fasts don't have that effect.
The interesting thing about Davis is that he also finds thyroid supplementation to be an integral part of health. What if he, as well as Broda Barnes, Ray Peat, and Mark Starr are all correct about this. And a cure for all of these problems like heart disease and obesity is as easy as supplementing with thyroid. This would be great because people could stop all of this unhealthy behavior with food obsession.
Thyroid is immensely healthful, and is probably the single-most important non-dietary strategy for defending yourself from degenerative disease.
I'm more interested in the intellectual pursuit of figuring out what is causing body temperatures to be falling across the globe in all Western societies, and addressing that at the core. Plus, many people try desiccated thyroid and don't get the results they are promised.
Thyroid supplementation might be an effective approach, but seems to me like it would create a dependency that I personally have little interest in. What happens when/if you don't have access to dessicated thyroid? Do those problems come back again with a vengeance? Are you creating a lifelong alliance with this supplement?
If the argument is that it's a short-term jumping off point for robust health, and that health can be maintained indefinitely by quality clean, nutrient dense food and a healthy lifestyle (sun, movement, minimal stress, etc.), then that might be good. But I like that Matt looks at a food based approach.
And of course, the permaculturist in me wonder how sustainable a population of pig thyroid eaters is- does that require a CAFO infrastructure? What ways, if any, exist for people to, like the natives Price and others observed, live a more or less locally-based, community self-reliant lifestyle? A food based approach jives more with a re-localized, decentralized and low-energy way of life than a manufactured supplement regime, it would seem to me.
A lot of people have been reporting that the desicated thyroid isn't working as well as it used to. Ray peat and others focused on the thyroid recommend Cytomel T3 as being useful, and I am sure most people would feel its effects pretty quickly.
I am starting to be less and less convinced that diet is the only cause of these problems. Peat thinks that the other environmental factors that are at play causing the need for thyroid supplementation. I am agree with Peat that you need an optimal diet along with the supplementation.
Most diet obessives are dependent on certain "healthy" foods anyways. What does it matter if it is a supplement or something you buy from the farmers market? It is easier to get a script for thyroid than it is to get raw milk and other specialty foods that people are dependent on. I would rather be dependent on an easy to obtain supplement and be able to eat whatever I wanted and feel good.
Pig thyroid is not the only option you can get other T4 and T3 meds and a lot of people do fine on them.
Would the milk diet be helpful in overcoming constipation?
I have battled it for many years now (whether consuming dairy or not). My latest temp readings have been 98.3 yesterday, 98.0 today (post ovulation). These seem pretty decent to me.
I have gained btwn 5-10 lbs since following Matt's dietary advice (this past week has been hit and miss). My current weight is 138lbs as a 5'8" female.
I'm trying to decide if it would be worth a shot at the milk diet, or just stay the course for now.
A lot of people have been reporting that the desicated thyroid isn't working as well as it used to. Ray peat and others focused on the thyroid recommend Cytomel T3 as being useful, and I am sure most people would feel its effects pretty quickly.
JT, I am one for whom dessicated thyroid did not work well. I am now on Cytomel T3 and it has NOT made a difference. Low body temps, fatigue, weight gain, all those fun symptoms did not improve, even when the doc upped my dosage past what was putting me in normal range.
I no longer believe treating my hypothyroidism with medication is the answer for me. I believe finding the root cause of it and my symptoms could lead me to a future free of any thyroid meds.
I had chronic constipation for a good decade or more, until just a few months ago. Cutting out all processed foods and grains and eating astronomical quantities of animal fat helped me get there, though it took a while. Jerusalem artichokes also seemed to help. Still, I'd sometimes go a day or two without a bowel movement. Now, I'm nearly three weeks into the milk diet, and so far I've had at least one bowel movement every single day–that's 19 days in a row. Never in my adult life have I come remotely close to such a streak. I've even had two and sometimes three movements per day on many days. The key is to drink as much milk as you can. Nothing happens for me until I get towards my fourth quart or so. The later in the day that is, the later that day's first bowel movement. I aim for 6 quarts or more everyday. I'm also drinking homemade kefir, which also helps.
Thanks Matt…good point. I got his book for Christmas and he has several case studies in there. The most resassuring one was a guy that was on a whole food diet and he scored really low on the plaque thing. It's eye opening to hear about so many people in great shape dropping dead of heart attacks.
JT…I find the info from Dr. Davis very interesting…I'm not 100% on board but I think there's a lot of value in there. I haven't been following his advice because I don't like the idea of having my heart bathed in radiation during a heart scan, LOL!
Just remember that there is a lot more to heart disease than just plaque. That's the focus of the majority, but I believe it's a mistake. In fact, those with smaller rates of plaque tend to have greater rates of actual cardiac events. Some have even put forward the idea that more closed off arteries tend to be more calcified and stable. The blockage is not the problem. The events that occur in there are, and there is much more complexity to it than just tracking your plaque.
Warning: Low-fat cult propaganda contained in this link – it's not all hoo-ha though.
Thanks Gazelle. I see that reported often, and from what I understand T3 in isolation usually performs even more dismally than the crappy new version of Armour, with more long-term side effects.
I battled with constipation for years (I have Hashimoto's)- tried high fiber, then low fiber (after reading Fiber Menace). I'm 63 now.
About a year ago I followed Matt's advice from one of his ebooks (can't remember which): fruit & vegies only for about a week and a half, then the same plus cooked vegies and bread, with fat, for almost two weeks, then gradually adding back in eggs and meat.
Since that time I usually have two or three bowel movements daily, easily (very rarely have a problem).
Thanks Meighen. Glad to hear it.
On second thought, Michael Phelps says he eats eight thousand to ten thousand calories a day, not twelve thousand. Still, I'd have to be working out for, like, four hours in order to equal his level of calories.
Matt, I would like to share my experience of the last week.
I have lately noticed extremely high levels of satiety by eating potato, brown rice, butternut, sweet potato, onions, carrots, etc., and eating no fruit.
I have to force myself to eat for my temperature not to drop too low. I am not eating much fat, protein about 2-2.5 grs./kg lean body mas, so my caloric intake is not so high. I really can’t figure out why I am experiencing reduced apetite on a relatively low caloric intake.
I don’t use dairy from cows bred under modern practices, for the potential neagtive impact of dairy on human hormonal profiles, as I have explained before on this thread. Combining the starches with juicy meats and eggs (yolks almost raw) I don’t need to add butter to make starches palatable.
My libido has never been so high. Thanks Matt!
Thanks Meighan and Mike,
I had considered Matt's recommendation on fruit and veggies for a while. The only reason I haven't is that when I have made other dietary changes (GF/CF), initially there was a benefit, but after a week or two back to constipation. My concern is I could do fruit and veggies for a while and as soon as I quit I would be constipated again. Also, I was recently down to 130-132lbs eating mostly Primal and I didn't want to lose anymore weight.
I have moved more toward real food, but I haven't cut out all sugar…yet.
Love this blog and everyone's post. It's the learning from others and from our own experience that can help us lead to what might be true to ourselves. There is no wrong or right but what we choose to believe. Matt is doing an amazing job sharing his experience with the whole world to see.
I'm sure this has been touched on before, but i can't seem to find it. Do you recommend doing the milk fast if only grass-fed, non homogenized, vat pasteurized milk can be found? There is no raw milk in my area i have access to and really would like to do the milk fast, or at least have it be one or two meals a day.
Also, I saw that you mentioned cytomel on its own could have worse long term effects? I have been taking it for 8 months with no positive effects and am wondering how to wean off of it, but am afraid of bad reactions.
What kind of adrenal support were you taking with the thyroid? Barnes found that most non-responders to thyroid medication had adrenal problems that had to be addressed first by taking hydrocortisone. I know of many people that didn't get results until they got on the adrenal support. Did you take the cytomel spread out through the day or in one dose.
I just want to feel and function my best. If this required popping some dessicated thyroid (which is food) or drinking milk, or taking herbs, overfeeding I would do it. I try not to be dogmatic on what is good or bad concerning these matters. The truth of the matter is that many peoples problems may not be due to diet, so someone in your situation could benefit from HRT. You could try to find a real Ayurvedic doc and see if they could cure you, I have had good results with them and know others who have as well.
That Masai diet linked you posted was very interesting. Their diet of mostly milk and grains would make most paleo fanatics cringe. I wonder if the grains are a more recent addition, and if this has had a negative affect.
I don't know who in hell could do twenty to thirty days of fasting. I was all in several times and the farthest I got was 7.5 days preceded by two days juice fasting. The only way I could legitimately see someone go thirty days is if they were pretty fat, and the fast was much easier. I'm relatively tall and pretty ripped.
I see you talking about thyroid a lot. I took Nature-Throid, often thought of as the superior alternative to Armour, for about six or seven weeks. From half a milligram to four millograms. No noticeable side effects except for two occasions. One night I had about five one hundred percent chocolate squares and I had tremors for the first time ever. Then I started working out with weights, and after a set, my heart would beat exponentially faster than it should. I left the gym several days in a row after only a few sets. Stopped the desiccated thyroid and gym returned to normal. Interestingly, while on the same dose of desiccated thyroid that caused those effects in the gym, four milligrams, I had no noticeable side effects jogging. I was also wary that perhaps thyroid supplementation could eventually atrophy my thyroid gland and really make me dependant on thyroid hormone for life. Supplement is a supplement, by definition. Stopthethyroidmadness.com has some good information but, in my opinion, they need to focus more on diet and less on adding more potential problems to the equation like hydrocortisone for adrenal glands and desiccated thyroid. I think the best remedy for adrenal burnout, if it does exist, is sleep.
That's my two cents. Trying to remedy a thyroid problem caused by excessive soymilk (like twenty or twenty-four servings a day) that really messes up my speaking. On day thirty-two of my raw milk diet, after a two-day fast after having a fever on what was supposed to be day thirty-two.
For the record, also took Iodoral for 8.5 months when I first thought my speaking problems were due to soy blocking uptake of iodine to my thyroid. Took 50mg for 5.5 months and 150mg for three months. Even 200mg for two days. I upped the dose after talking directly to Dr. Abrham, who is a really bizarre, brusque guy, on the phone. He told me he takes 150mg a day, whether he does or not. That said, I've never seen a seaweed at the store higher than a milligram or two. A Dr. Alan Gaby has a debate online with Dr. Abraham and essentially demolishes Abraham, and this is what got me to stop Iodoral initially. The milligram dose of Iodoral is based on a calculation error of wet seaweed to dry seaweed and is exponentially higher than Japanese supposedly take, even in Hokkaido. Even the Linus Pauling Institute at Oregon State University lists a similar amount as Abraham, but when I contacted them, they said it came from the same study Abraham based his calculations off. Gaby writes very clearly and efficiently while Abraham goes on and on in arguments that could be summed up in one twentieth the space. By the way, had no improvements on Iodoral when taking it. Was still consuming a lot of soy at the time. By the way, I did find it hard to breathe when I upped the dose to 150mg, and had to look upward to relieve the feeling, and that was another big factor.
I think the grains are a recent addition. As all african nomads the massai have been forced into smaller and smaller territories by the governments. Thus there is not enough land for them to keep large herds anymore. I think they were forced to add some other things to their diet because their tradditional foods couldn't feed them anymore.
When Price observed the Massai in his days he didn't say anything about grains or sugar.
I've recently added adrenal support as I now believe adrenal malfunction could be the origin of my hypothyroid problem (I was diagnosed hypo after a period of extremely disruptive heart palpitations and insomnia, which followed a period of over-exercising). Currently on Isocort (could also try Cortef from my doc), licorice root and DHEA, plus sea salt in water twice a day. I see some early signs that my body temp could be improving.
Yes, I do spread the Cytomel doses out throughout the day.
I've also added Betaine HCL with each meal and am very happy to report that since I started this plus the adrenal support my persistent and frustrating digestive issues seem to have finally resolved.
Glad to hear you are making some progress. It seems that so many people need adrenal support to make the thyroid meds work. I also think that many people diagnose themselves as hypothyroid when the real problem is with their adrenals. When treating my adrenal insufficiency I started out on isocort, but switched to Cortef which worked better. Licorice root works as well, I didn't take it for too long because of the estrogen raising effects, but if I was a woman I wouldn't worry about this.
As far as Ray Peat goes…
When I asked him about Iodine Fullfillment Therapy, where you take these very high doses of iodine, he said that anything over 2x the RDA can damage the thyroid.
I think it was Chloe who said that Peat had told her that there shouldn't be a problem taking small amount of natural thyroid because it used to be part of the human diet not that long ago (going from memory here…don't remember the exact wording or amounts, but that is the gist of it).
So maybe taking a strong dose of natural thyroid hormone every so often, and not every day, would give you the benefits of the thyroid without creating a dependence on it. I don't think anyone consumed thyroid in their diet on a daily basis. Just me thinking out loud…please don't do it because of me, LOL!
For my adrenals, I took Drenamin from Standard Process. That help me MUCH more than Thytrophin (which is for the thyroid). I don't take either of them anymore.
Thanks Max. Good feedback. A lot of people have the same experience and signs of the metabolism going up while hunger goes down eating a high-starch/low-sugar diet, particularly those who have some body fat to spare, thus having a lot of circulating leptin, but just needing to tap into that leptin by becoming more sensitized to it.
I think pasteurized milk can probably be used with decent results, but I would definitely take some citrus fruit with it. As for the Cytomel, I'm not at liberty to discuss weaning off of the meds with you, but would think you could get off of it fairly easy if you haven't really felt anything from taking it, especially if you eat and sleep well.
Thanks buddy. We definitely have active and ongoing thoughts and discussions here.
You're definitely right about adrenal issues often being confused or misdiagnosed as being some kind of thyroid disorder.
how did you dose the cortef and for how long? Did you take anything to support your thyroid?
Has anyone tried Raw Adrenal from Natural Sources? I bought some on Amazon but have been using the Isocort because it seemed to me that it's a more standardized dose that can be spread out throughout the day…
I wouldn't take any supplement, like licorice. You have to worry about dosage which is one more thing to worry about. And if the product is actually as potent as it says. You say if you're a woman you don't have to worry about high estrogen levels. Men have estrogen too, and natural products, like licorce amongst others, have positive effects in men too analogous to the effects in women. My impression with all your posts so far sounds like me over a year ago. Looking at particular phytochemicals/supplements instead of the big picture of regaining health naturally.
Oral temperature upon waking this morning, the thirty-third day of the milk diet was 99.2 F. First time I've had over 98.4 and thereabouts. Not sure if it's an anomaly. We'll see if my speaking is different when I go to work.
Masai Warriors were said to only consume animal, milk, blood, and occasional herbs. No vegetation or fruits. I've heard there was a recent drought and the Masai have had to accept vegetation from other suppliers as a part of their diet. They may have to ferment food now because food aren't always available or to make it more absorbable and break it down.
I believe it's more ideal to break down food in fermentation rather than cooking it for best health.
If I could afford it here would be the optimal foods I would eat: Self made Coconut milk, raw milk, raw meat/organs/stock, raw fertile eggs, bone broth, raw bee pollen, cold packed honey, beet kvass, raw sauerkraut, raw kimchi, add in cinnamon, curcumin, milk thistle, magnesium chloride, kelp, and that's it. Preferably all animal derived sources had all their foods straight from the soil and lived in open sunlight.
Dr. Brownstein and other modern researchers suggest we need to initially load with 50mg of iodine and then maintain with 12mg of iodine a day. You may be able to get those amounts from kelp or animal thyroid gland. Others say to stay under 150mcg a day and not to go three times over than amount, could be harmful at 20 times that amount.
I really don't get where you are coming from with your post. What is unnatural about taking herbs? I have been successful overcoming my very severe adrenal inefficiencies with the approach I used. I also have documented labs done during this time period to document how certain approaches effected my entire hormonal profile, so I know how these things work in my body. Most people never get this done so they just guess.
BTW, women can have estrogen that is too high as well, it is just probably a little less risky than increasing estrogen in men. No man wants to develop a bad case of gyno, erectile disfunction, or addiction to romantic comedies, which can all be side effects of excess estrogen in males.
I started out on isocort for about a month and then got on cortef which I took for about 10 months. I did this while eating a schwarzebein type of diet. This enabled me to function better on a daily basis. What really helped me turn the corner to feeling better was when I started to get back in shape, which improved my entire hormonal profile. I was finally able to get completely off the cortef after being treated by a real ayurvedic doc for about a month.
I'd love to be addicted to romantic comedies. Then I would be able to enjoy watching movies instead of daydreaming about UFC and Predator every time I am forced to watch something that does not involve trying to kill aliens or beat someone unconscious. Damn testosterone.
If I manage to boost my estrogen levels I'll start a "hot dicks club" and you can be the first "member."
98.4 is pretty damn smoking, but 99.2? Crazy. Interesting to note that you had no significant temperature increases for several weeks and now you're cooking. For me, I'm seeing hot mid-day, afternoon, and evening temps of over 98 degrees, but still hypometabolic first thing in the morning – and feel groggy and hungover. Seeing the warm afternoon temps makes me feel like progress is being made.
Maybe you'd have an easier time consuming more food if you had more fat soluble vitamins. You're diet is somewhat high in protein so you mad need more of the vitamins A and D which you can get from fermented codliver oil or canned sockeye salmon. The A/D levels of salmon would be different from year to year. It's better canned because sunlight destroys the A/D content. So that would mean salmon with prolonged light exposure have no A/D in them. Adding some lemon squeeze to protein source helps in their absorption. The gelatin in bone broth is also known to increase absorption of foods.
I also foregot to mention I'd add freshly ground flaxseed and fermented codliver oil to the mixed food plan.
I usually wake up around noon or so since I work at night. If that makes a difference. I don't want to get ahead of myself. As of last night, I don't see a difference in my speaking, which is the focus.
Search Google for the debate between Dr. Gaby and Drs. Brownstein/Abraham.
If it worked, fair enough. But you can overcome adrenal insufficiency without any herbs, too. For example, on enough sleep, and meat and/or raw milk.
Is that what worked for you? Do you know of many other people that it did?
How should rising oral temperature differ from afternoon or night oral temperature again?
I've done thirty-two days on the milk diet so far, thirty-one plus a two-day fast. I plan on doing another thirty-plus days and seeing where I stand after about sixty-plus days. Maybe I'll switch to raw milk plus regular food then. All that said, if I lived in Japan or China right now it might be impossible to find raw milk, so I'd have to stick with an HED type diet.
I never had adrenal insufficiency that I know of. Think about it logically. Licorice is a root only available in certain regions of the world pre-industrialization. So many people in the world would have to resolve any potential problems without licorice. And how would they do so? According to what's available locally. In many parts, like the Arctic, Siberia, Mongolia, amongst others, there's not much more than meat, blood, and/or milk.
I am not saying anyone should use licorice, its not what cured me, but it could be useful for others and their is no reason to reject it because of the arguments you gave. Indigenous cultures from all over the world used plants for medicinal purposes. Now we are lucky to be able to take the best from anywhere we need to. Even those places you mentioned used medicinal herbs. The places you mentioned are not environments that are natural to the human species, so their diet should not be seen as the ideal.
I think most people won't be able to do much by trying to take herbs. If you really want to do it and actually get results then you should get it from an experienced and legitimate TCM or Ayurvedic doc.
I think you are right to do the milk diet for longer. I think 3 months would be a good amount of time to make lasting changes, and 1 month is probably the minimum.
Yea, Bernarr Macfadden, and I believe Charles Sanford Porter, both say the average time the body normalizes is four to six weeks, or as many months. I'm on day thirty-three now, which would be 4.5 weeks. By the way, what were your adrenal/thyroid symptoms?
I'm dealing with this one side effect, slow speech, that I still blame on a thyroid problem, even though the two thyroid tests I had showed normal thyroid hormone levels, although different from test to test, i.e., decreasing TSH. Perhaps thyroid hormone resistance. So pretty much I would rather have ANY of the other symptoms of low thyroid, fatigue, weight gain, whatever, than this. It's night and day. My speaking used to be ridiculously cutting in pretty much every conversation I'd have. Then I revamped my whole lifestyle with a lot of soymilk and soy protein, but didn't realize this could be the culprit till well over a year later, since I blamed things on Propecia, which I took for 58 days. Been off soy since mid-October 2009. A week from now will be the two-year anniversary of my symptoms first appearing, which sucks. A part of me wants to go see another neurologist who could possibly diagnose me just so I know exactly what's going on, since I don't, but not sure they could help me with a safe, reasonable solution. Which is where raw milk comes in. Before my problems, I used to drink up to a gallon of pasteurized milk a day. And whey protein. Took six weeks off. Then the soy. I've even thought of taking one of those weight gainer powders, albeit a grass-fed one with no artificial colors and flavors, in order to ramp up the calories. It would be against my nutritional beliefs, but perhaps for a shirt time. I asked Matt this but I don't think he saw the question. :-P
Matt, I'm so happy that you posted this stuff now! I'm currently reading Caldwell Esselstyn's Prevent and Reverse Heart Disease. I'm very well informed about all the cholesterol and saturated fat misinformation, and he totally falls into that camp, so I think his ideas about preventing heart disease are useless. However, I'm having trouble not being convinced by his claims to reverse heart disease in many patients through a vegan, no-fat diet. His recommended diet is just CRAZY restrictive- no nuts or avocados, absolutely no animal foods, no oils at all. What I wonder is whether, once a body has heart disease, it might somehow be beneficial to go on this type of diet, even if the reasons Esselstyn has for recommending it are incorrect. Thoughts? Thanks!
JT, did you need to eliminate caffeine to fix your adrenals? Right now I'm down to one cup in the morning and trying to determine if it's that important to completely eliminate or not. I'm also taking a supplement containing adrenal extract and several adaptogens.
@Doggcrapp…are you the original Doggcrapp? (Dante?)
Chris Masterjohn wrote a review of Anthony Colpo's The Great Cholesterol Con. I found it very interesting.
Off topic, but what's your views on salt? I've been using a lot of iodized table salt to get extra iodine and think it might be causing my occasional heartburn.
I've mentioned this a couple times here, but either you didn't see it, you have a life (unlike me), or you deemed this question unworthy of a response. When I first started consuming soymilk, I also started with soy protein isolate or concentrate the same day. Three or four shakes a day, in addition to a ton of soymilk. Literally a ton. Then my speech turned south two days later, or my third day on soy. Here's the thing, I used to consume a similar amount of milk and whey protein prior to my soy experiment. What would you say to this as an idea. In addition to raw milk, why not add three or four 2000 calorie-ish weight gainers, preferably one that is grass-fed with no artificial colors or flavors? Yes, it's against all our nutritional foundation, but I need a boost, man. While I still have some hope this milk thing will come through, each day that goes by saps more morale from me. And this type of eating would mimic the dietary environment I was on for years before my speaking problem arose.
Why not incorporate some well cooked skinless potatoes as well as some eggs with the milk.
Also, were you just mixing store bought whey protein in with a gallon of regular milk in the past? Where/are you an athlete?
Yes, I was just mixing store-bought whey protein with a gallon of regular milk at a time when I knew little except for conventional wisdom about nutrition. Up through high school, I played three sports, and performed well, but in college I replaced that with natural bodybuilding, so that was my emphasis. Just for fun, not for competition.
I've been on the milk diet now for thirty-three days on eight quarts, and I haven't seen a change at all in my slow speech, a thyroid symptom that is not a slight problem but a huge, huge problem in my opinion. I'm taking in 4800 calories a day in raw whole milk. Now, I was working out pretty good before I started the milk diet but stopped since. I'm gonna start up again tomorrow. Not sure I'm all on board with Matt's support of not working out since I can vouch that I used to work out six days a week for several hours a day, sometimes even twice a day, and I had the mind and tongue of a silver fox. Very quick. My mind is still great, but something's been up with my speech. That's an understatement. For all intents and purposes, my life is absolutely devastated at the moment. I thought a high-caloric weight gainer would be an easy way to exponentiate the amount of calories in an attempt to replicate my prior dietary environment pre-soy.
And why do you specifically say skinless?
I just need something to change soon. I'm giving the milk diet another thirty days for sure since I really am down on options. If you want to know a tad more information, there is a post or two above.
You were on propceia! That is much more likely to be the culprit instead of soy milk. I have heard of many men who have had their endocrine system completely devastated by that drug. Hopefully you will still be able to recover, but you should be working in conjunction with a professional that specializes in this area.
No, I don't think moderate caffeine consumption will prevent your adrenals from healing. I drink 1 cup of coffee a day because I love it, and it is a good preworkout boost. I don't need it to function though. Ray Peat thinks that coffee is a very healthy food and caffeine should be given vitamin like status. I no longer believe all of the pop health dogma on sugar and caffeine.
JT, I love my coffee too, although I'm not sure my body loves it. I'm pretty skeptical about any supposed benefits. At least drinking 4-5 a day combined with high stress and poor sleep has not done me much good, one seems to be the most I can tolerate, if even that.
Another question regarding adrenal fatigue, you mentioned following a Schwarzbein-type to heal. Would that be 3 balanaced meals, or several smaller ones?
I've been curious about trying a routine with a low-carb breakfast/lunch with a supper that has a higher amount, although I'm not sure how this would work for the adrenals. The idea of having a "small portion" of carbs with each meal just doesn't attract me, I prefer to have a lot or none at all for some reason.
That's what I mean, its based on assumptions. Wait, are you being sarcastic? haha
Did you see Chris Masterjohn's "How Much Atherosclerosis Did the Masai Really Have"?
Also, in the video you were explaining why its not just Masai's genes that protect them from heart disease, as has been suggested. There is something similar that is said. This other claim that supports the lipid hypothesis is that they are only protected from heart disease because they exercise, and this was suggested by authors in Mann's studies as well. However, according to this very study, they're atherosclerosis actually reverses between the ages of 12-30, when they are most active, and the size of the Masai's vessels increase with age "more than compensating". Obviously than, its not exercise that's increasing the Masai's blood vessel size. Is there some other protective factor exercise has? I wonder where people come up with these ideas?
Oh and I had heard they have a Total cholesterol of 150 but you say 120? Maybe this is a measurements of 12-30 year old's?
I know you've posted something about Dr. Schulze before. I have always loved his products, because they did really help me get healed of irritable bowel syndrome. I got his most recent newsletter in the mail and he has his new weightloss program out. I am rather disappointed because he has designed products to suppress your appetite, block fat and carbs from being absorbed in the body, made an herbal energy shot to boost energy so you can do cardio for an hour a day, and included his bowel cleanses. Oh and you have to eat 1500 calories a day, because as he says, losing weight is a simple matter of physics, calories in and calories burned.
The only good thing that he's done is included the superfood for actually feeding the body nutrients it's starving for. It just bums me that someone so far removed from the medical establishment still buys into the "eating fat makes you fat and clogs your arteries" and the whole eat less and exercise more thing.
I'm sure his stuff works, it always does, and it's healthy for you I'm sure. But if the body is starving for nutrients, why suppress the appetite?
Anyways, just thought I'd pass it along.
As a former rabbit owner I just have to say a rabbit's digestive system is not meant to handle fat. So a researcher giving a rabbit cholesterol is going to get the outcome they are looking for. Just my 2 cents.
My bun loved peanuts and seeds, but I was told not to give them to her.
Is what based on assumptions? I can't determine what you're referring to.
Yes, I took Propecia, although for only 58 days back in spring and summer 2008. There are some pointed reasons why I think soymilk is the cause and not Propecia. Remember, I was consuming an exorbitant amount of soymilk and soy protein powder. First, I have never had any physical or sexual side effects from Propecia. Everything has always been working as it should. Second, I was on Propecia for almost three weeks before I started soy, with absolutely zero negative symptoms. Only two days after I started soy my speech became slow. Third, slow speech is a common symptom of thyroid hormone metabolism problems. And we know thyroid problems are manifest in many, many ways. Perhaps different in me, an athletic gent in his mid-20s than a woman in her 50s. Four, I did only take Propecia for such a short time, and I really believe that side effects, if any, would have disappeared within a short period after. Yes, there are many men who claim "permanent" sexual side effects, and while I can't discount that, since some took it for years, it's hard to ascertain the cause because in many, if not all, of these cases, these men took other drugs subsequently and before, and their diet was in probably all cases subpar. Five, my dad has been taking Propecia for about six years, against my advice, and has had not problems that he admits, particularly with his speech.
Matt said…"Just remember that there is a lot more to heart disease than just plaque. That's the focus of the majority, but I believe it's a mistake. In fact, those with smaller rates of plaque tend to have greater rates of actual cardiac events. Some have even put forward the idea that more closed off arteries tend to be more calcified and stable. The blockage is not the problem. The events that occur in there are, and there is much more complexity to it than just tracking your plaque. "
You are correct, Sir!
Dr. Davis admits that plaque in the 30-40% range is more likely to break off and cause a heart attack than a much higher blockage percentage. (those numbers are from memory so they may be slightly different than what is actually in the book.)
I suggested skinless as I have recently made the switch, and while consuming 5lbs + a day I have found it makes a difference.
I like the sounds of your training routine. It is very similar to mine. You should return to it when you feel you can. I too love bodybuilding for fun.
I am curious why you switched from reg store milk and whey protein drinks to soy milk and products.
Did you have problems drink the reg milk and whey, as in negative symptoms? How many cals where you taking in back then?
You have found skinless potatoes makes a difference in what?
I didn't count calories back then nor do I really now. I go by feel. However, I was consuming up to a gallon a day. Usually, just under two-thirds of a gallon or so. I would drink both milk by itself and in whey protein shakes. Never had any negative symptoms except for acne on my back which wasn't horrible, but not like it is now — pretty non-existent.
I switched from regular milk and whey to soymilk and soy protein primarily because I thought my hair was starting to thin and thought it might be related to my levels of milk consumption. No one else besides my dad, who was in his mid-60s at that time, has thinning hair, and I have three older brothers, two almost twenty years older, and they drink some but not really as much milk as I do. Plus, I thought it could help with acne. In Googling natural hair loss remedies, I came across soy as one. Apparently an isoflavone in soy, daidzein, metabolizes to a compound called equol which is a potent DHT blocker, and that struck a chord with me. I thought the more, the merrier. The more soy, the less hair loss. There was a six-week span between milk and soy that I didn't consume either because I was living in another country and soymilk wasn't around the corner, although it was available. I did, however, occasionally consume soy yogurt at that time, sometimes two a day, but it wasn't a religious thing but rather something I threw in. I didn't consume much because of the sugar content of the yogurts. I drank so much milk that I transferred that mentality over to all foods in that I never thought you could overdo a food at a supermarket. The difference may lie in processed food versus whole food, but I don't know if I would have had the same effects had I stuck to regular soybeans, like edamame or tofu. Perhaps the lack of fiber in soymilk played a negative role. I will say that for years before I used to eat at Chipotle and routinely consume two burrito bowls with double black and/or pinto beans and no rice and never had any problems.
When I left the skins on the potatoes, I eventually started to develop canker sores in my mouth and some digestive upset. But now everything is great.
After communicating with Ray Peat, he has shown me that the levels of hormones in cows milk are actually quite low and most are found in the cream. Even then, heating further deactivates them ie pasteurization.
From http://www.westonaprice.org/Nightshades.html :
Solanine is a glycoalkaloid, that is, a non-protein compound containing nitrogen. It is a potent poison found in species of the nightshade family, especially potatoes and eggplant…
Solanine poisoning is primarily displayed by gastrointestinal and neurological disorders. Symptoms include nausea, diarrhea, vomiting, stomach cramps, burning of the throat, cardiac dysrhythmia, headache and dizziness. Hallucinations, loss of sensation, paralysis, fever, jaundice, dilated pupils and hypothermia have been reported in more severe cases…
In potato tubers, 30?80 percent of the solanine develops in and close to the skin. If the potato looks green under the skin, throw it away; likewise if it has begun to sprout, just discard it.
Perhaps this explains your reaction to the skins?
Do you know how one would go about finding a good Aruyvedic doctor? By the way, Ray Peat seems to think coffee is only ok WITH milk/cream or a meal (from my interpretation of his writing) although no doubt you know this.
I was having such a problem with my thermometer giving me different readings and so I bought a basal thermometer from the pharmacy in the family planning section. It is giving me much more consistent results and it takes longer to give a reading which I think is a good thing. Thought it might be worth passing on.
Is it worth reading your digestion book (I have bought it but not printed it out yet) – or have you changed your mind on a lot of that stuff (by the way I think standing up and admitting to changing your mind is GREAT – it is the only way forward – so many of these 'experts' get stuck with their little theories – don't be like them – keep reading and thinking and changing your mind!
I have not been following your story properly but if I was in my 20s and had slow speech I wouldn't be following the thyroid trail I would be seeing a medical doctor such as a speech specialist or even a neruologist and taking it from there.
You just said you were on a HIGHLY toxic drug for 3 weeks when you developed this issue, yet you still blame it on excess soy consumption!! Propecia has a long history of seriously damaging the endocrine system, and just because you are functioning OK sexually doesn't mean it didn't cause any other problems. It has documented effects on the neurosteroids, hypothalmus, and pituitary. But, who knows it could have been the combined effect of both at the same time. Have you even had full labs done checking all of the hormones, thyroid, adrenal? What treatments have you tried?
Drink 5 cups of coffee a day is probably not good idea for most. After reading your blog I see that you struggle with some severe emotional issues when it comes to food, so the only thing you should worry about is balance. Just try to eat whole balanced meals 3-5 times a day. Doing low carb meals in the morning will just set you up for binge cycles at night and create more physical and emotional stress. Also, I think drinking coffee without some carbs present is stressful.
If you want a find a good Ayurvedic doctor you can do what I did and travel to Asia! It is really tough to find one in the US, and would definitely be much more expensive. Getting treated in India at a real place would be much cheaper if you were going to do something in depth like a Panchakarma which is kind of like the old school milk diet programs, but on steroids. If you just want to get some herbs and set up some home treatment you could check out the Ayuredic institute in Albequerque, their stuff is pretty legit and they will mail it to you.
Concerning the coffee, I agree with Peat, too much caffeine in your system at once can be stressful on the system especially if there are no sugars present. Most people can see that they tolerate a lot more caffeine if they have sugar as well. But, I only like my coffee black, so I drink it first thing in the morning, then I drink my sugar and protein drink which has the same effect as the milk Peat likes.
The first doctor I saw was a neurologist. My parents set up the appointment, she didn't seem very knowledgable in my opinion, and she was a doctor of osteopathy which I found out later, and her credentials were pretty average. Anyone with a pulse can get in there. I may see another real neurologist soon.
The only prescription drug I've taken in the last few years was Propecia. No drugs since. At one point in time I used to take Tylenol or Advil for headaches, but not very often, and most of the time never. And I stopped that in my late teens or so.
I've had two thyroid tests, both in normal range, but the second test had different results, indicating an increase in thyroid hormones if you interpret them. I had a cortisol test my second time only, and while normal, it was in the lower end of the range, a seven out of a range of four to thirty-four or so. Forget the unit of measurements. Cortisol can fluctuate though.
I can't emphasize how much soy I was consuming. I've been off one hundred percent since mid-October, seven months ago, and no improvement. I'm so fucked. And for what? Soy?
Anybody have any thoughts about my weight gain 2000 calorie idea? I thought Matt would've answered by now but I don't think he's alive anymore. =)
One last thought. I may be getting sick of the milk diet. I've had two quarts today, day thirty-four, and it feels ridiculously unappetizing. Like I'm forcing it.
The comment storm will end here. I'll relax a bit.
Bernarr Macfadden writes about these people who allegedly consume milk for, say, eighteen months or fifty years. If people can survive on milk, why isn't a single-food diet of milk present anywhere in the world? Sure, cultures consume milk amongst other food. But if milk is so nutritious and available, why didn't they ever consume this as a sole food, especially in harsh and tenuous climates like Mongolia?
Derek, 34 days is a long time! I never made it past 10. If you want to continue to get some of the benefits of the milk diet, but don't want to just drink milk all the time, you could try making some milk into kefir. Also, if you add only foods that are very, very low purine, you will still get a lot of the benefits of the milk diet and be able to do it more long term. Yes, milk does have all the necessary carbs, fat, protein, vitamins, and minerals, and maybe that's why the milk diet works, but it also may be so effective because it is so low in purines. Just a thought.
Also, since most meds and also estrogenic foods do their most damage to the liver, you may want to look into clearing out your liver. Julia Chang at http://www.sensiblehealth.com has excellent tinctures that might be able to get things moving for you a little more quickly. If you call her, she takes the time to explain to you why cleaning out the liver helps with almost anything. She says that young men losing hair at an early age is caused by dirty blood, fixed by cleansing the liver. She highly emphasizes avoiding food and herbs that are estrogenic. Your liver may have been flagging to begin with, and the the meds and soy put you over the top. One other idea is energy medicine. There is a website http://www.kinginstitute.org that has a method similar to accupressure that you can do for youself. If you go to their website and click on future medicine, you will find three sequences and the directions to do them yourself. The median sequence would probably be the best in your situation. Before I bought the manual that has pages and pages of information, I did the median sequence for several weeks and saw a great improvement in my health. Along the same lines but easier, is the liquid needle body soaks by DNR, inc,@
http://www.dnr.com. They have a soak specifically for the nervous system. I've tried most of their soaks and homeopathics, and they are very powerful.
Hope this helps,
JT, I sometimes wish that blog wasn't there it makes me see how crazy I am :) But finding this site and eating as close to HED as possible has had a positive effect on sugar binges. Undereating is one of the major factors. And I've had digestive issues that made it impossible to eat and made me lose like 30-40 pounds, which just made everything worse because I was wasting away. I've since regained that weight thankfully.
Derek, maybe your problem is the combination of Propecia and the soy. One screws with testosterone and the other screws with estrogen…together they could have really screwed you up.
As far as coffee goes, I was reading something a few weeks ago online (can't find it now). I was looking into coffee and longevity and found a health site where many of their patients would do better if they increased their coffee intake but others that were parasympathetic dominant (or something like that) found that coffee DECREASED their immune system. I tried looking for it again but could not find it. But the point was that some folks do better with coffee and some do worse.
Always entertaining to read the comment section of Matt's blog. There is much I would like to comment on but I simply don't have the time.
However regarding Dr. Schulze, he has some great herbal products, some of the best on the planet, as least he did a few years ago. I have been to his seminars and visited his warehouse. I once was even their "rep" in the Seattle area. As long as he continues oversight of the production of his products I'm sure they will be good. He is a fanatic, in the good sense of that term.
Having said that Dr. Schulze is a vegan. As such he is great to consult when it comes to herbs and alternative healing, however I wouldn't follow his dietary advice unless I was dying of an incurable disease.
What you might have to do while you are sick (like going on the Milk Diet) is very different from what you ought to be doing when well.
Are you guys referring to Dr. Richard Schulze, Dr. Cayenne?
I have some of his stuff (books, videos) and the best line out of all of that was (roughly…going from memory again) "people come to us wanting the most exotic herbs from around the world but the fact is, once we clean up their diet and lifestyle, they usually get better from just doing that"
Ya gotta love it!
Are you guys referring to Dr. Richard Schulze, Dr. Cayenne?
I have some of his stuff (books, videos) and the best line out of all of that was (roughly…going from memory again) "people come to us wanting the most exotic herbs from around the world but the fact is, once we clean up their diet and lifestyle, they usually get better from just doing that"
Unless something has recently changed he means by that using formula #1, 2, Superfood, and diet. In other words, diet, digestion, and super nutrients.
He greatly dislikes the pill mentality where you don't change anything but consume some magic herb/drug.
I've definitely thought that a Propecia-soy combination could have worked in synergy and caused something. I did Google "Propecia soy" once and remember seeing soy listed as not interacting with Propecia. Whatever that means, really. And take any study related to a pharmaceutical with a grain of salt.
Bottom line. I feel absolutely robbed of my life and my strongest attribute, my speech. Does anybody have any comment about my adding a extremely high caloric weight gainer shake to the mix several times a day to boost things for a short period?
Does anybody have any comment about my adding a extremely high caloric weight gainer shake to the mix several times a day to boost things for a short period?
You think the Milk Diet is efficacious because of its caloric content?
Derek, I think a high caloric weight gainer shake would only gum up your glands and blood even more, only making the situation worse. Only my opinion.
Here's something you might want to google. Heart + speech + TCM (Traditional Chinese Medicine)
How would the heart be involved? The heart gets clean blood from the liver through the portal vein. If the liver is congested or the blood too thick, the vein gets blocked, the heart doesn't get enough blood, and circulation gets impeded.
I think the high-calorie value of milk is the third positive of milk. The first two are nutrient content of milk and ease of assimmilation.
I'm unimpressed with the milk diet. My thirty-fifth day today and no noticeable improvement in my speech.
I should just switch to a whole foods diet that includes milk. Drinking eight quarts of milk a day is so unnatural.
One positive aspect is that my wit is still here when I write, have a conversation in my mind, or whisper to myself softly. It's in the transition to actually speaking where the problem is and where I sound slow and drawn out. Like Sean Penn in Fast Times at Ridgemont High.
I don't see any positive changes at all. Now, possibly the changes will occur shockingly fast, within a few days, like how the problems began.
Hey Matt. Your oppurtunity to get your own reality TV show may be possible.
You have the oppurtunity for an audtion:
Now you don't have to put up with the false information that acai berries are a complete nutrition resource and get your chance to teach the media the truth of health and nutrition.
I think the high-calorie value of milk is the third positive of milk. The first two are nutrient content of milk and ease of assimmilation.
Yes, milk, not milk plus weight gain shakes
I'm unimpressed with the milk diet. My thirty-fifth day today and no noticeable improvement in my speech.
I should just switch to a whole foods diet that includes milk. Drinking eight quarts of milk a day is so unnatural.
Kind of like soy milk and propecia? :-) If you think the temporary nature of the Milk Diet/Fast is so "unnatural" and you no longer have any hope on it, you should move on to a whole foods diet.
As I told you on my blog there are no guarantees and the Milk Diet is not for everyone.
I don't see any positive changes at all. Now, possibly the changes will occur shockingly fast, within a few days, like how the problems began.
Or they might not occur at all, at least within whatever time frame you think they ought to occur.
Considering milk is so nutritious, I wonder why no culture in the world only consumes milk. And I wonder what I would be doing to remedy this if I lived in China and raw milk is about as easy to find as a straight guy in the Republican party.
I think the fact that my writing, having a conversation in my mind, or even whispering a conversation is interesting. It tells me that I still have the wit and fluency I've always had within, which in my opinion, rules against serious things ilke a stroke. Everything in my opinion points to something about the metabolism/thyroid being slow. Yes, I've read and heard that things can stay imbalanced for months and months and even years, but I don't understand the physiology
I know that you probably feel desperate to get well again, and this is probably causing you to become mentally/emotionally imbalanced. Your comments show that you are extremely irrational in regards to your own health care, but many people are. Look at all of the things you have done to treat yourself. To fix your hair you took a toxic drug and consumed massive quantities of soy until you injured yourself. Then, instead of blaming it on the drug with a documented history of damaging the endocrine system you blame on the soy. Then you go on the milk diet, but instead of doing it the way it has been shown to work, you want to add weight gainer to it.
So, you should probably consult with a professional medical adviser instead of trying to treat yourself. You have no proof that the cause is your thyroid, it could be many other things. If you keep going down the same road with the self treatment I am afraid you will just injure yourself further.
I suggest you contact Romeo Mariano, M.D at definitivemindotcom. He specialize neuroendocrine disorders and I have heard great things about him.
What causes clogged arteries? Were the dates of when the Masai's cholesterol levels the same as the dates when the Masai's were revealed to have clogged arteries? You did say on the video that they were found to have clogged arteries. Were these done on the warriors or the other tribesmen?
Have you read "The Fourfold Path to Healing" by Dr. Thomas Cowan and others or other reputable books that discuss healing health problems with organs and organ supplements such as Standard Process?
Do you ever specifically recommend healing by consuming different animal body parts?
How do you heal Atherosclerosis? Do you provide herbal remedies like Dr. Schulze and Dr. Thomas Cowan?
What you are describing sounds like the speech disorder that my son has and how it was described by my son's speech therapist. It is called apraxia and she said that it was a disconnect between the brain and the mouth and although he knows what he wants to say, he can't get it to come out the he wants…
What is apraxia of speech?
Apraxia of speech, also known as verbal apraxia or dyspraxia, is a speech disorder in which a person has trouble saying what he or she wants to say correctly and consistently. It is not due to weakness or paralysis of the speech muscles (the muscles of the face, tongue, and lips). The severity of apraxia of speech can range from mild to severe.
What are the types and causes of apraxia?
There are two main types of speech apraxia: acquired apraxia of speech and developmental apraxia of speech. Acquired apraxia of speech can affect a person at any age, although it most typically occurs in adults. It is caused by damage to the parts of the brain that are involved in speaking, and involves the loss or impairment of existing speech abilities. The disorder may result from a stroke, head injury, tumor, or other illness affecting the brain. Acquired apraxia of speech may occur together with muscle weakness affecting speech production (dysarthria) or language difficulties caused by damage to the nervous system (aphasia).
Derek, unless this is you, you are not alone…
Another indicating a few cases of speech disorder…
…and if you are Canadian, there is a class action lawsuit because of this and it includes slurring of speech…
…and another one…
Thanks for those links. Those aren't me, but I've seen similar stories on propeciahelp.com. Although I seem to be the only one who claims a speaking side effect who doesn't also have other sexual side effects.
Verbal apraxia. Sounds interesting, but I guarantee I never had any noticeable problem with my head/brain. No stroke, no head injury. I was 24 when this started, so no health problems ever for me but this.
You bring up great points. Which is why I haven't taken any drug to purpotedly correct things, as many guys do. I will not take anything other than natural whole foods. I have seen six doctors, albeit four were endocrinologists and potentially the wrong people to ask, one was a neurologist albeit a DO and not an MD, and one was a psychiatrist for the hell of it.
Not to sound like an uppity prick, but I was probably the wittiest person speaking-wise of anybody I ever personally met, and of course this happens to me.
Just ran through some verbal apraxia videos on YouTube. My condition doesn't sound anything like that. My speech is just slow. I sound like Sean Penn from Fast Times at Ridgemont High as opposed to somebody who speaks fluently, like a Robin Williams. I feel like there are random pauses where there shouldn't be, and I pronounce various syllables with different pitches, as if I have a subtle accent.
And soy appears to be a real sumbitch for speech as well…
SOY AND THE BRAIN
Thanks for your website! I found it by doing a Netscape search on isoflavones which took me to soyonlineservice.co.nz which took me to you at westonaprice.org.
Until 2 years ago I was a regular consumer of homemade soymilk. I have a PhD in plant physiology and over the years I systematically worked to optimize the process I used at home so that I could make a soymilk much more palatable than any on the market. I had an interest in eventually starting a business to make it. But then I learned that I probably had an adverse reaction to isoflavones in the soymilk and I stopped consuming soyfoods.
I tried taking isolated soy isoflavones, basically just to see what effect they had and also because they were reported to be good for prostate health (I am 57). (I am aware that there are studies pro and con benefit to prostate.) I took 2 SoyCare tablets (a total of 50 mg Novasoy isoflavones). A few hours later I found that it was difficult to speak and I nearly got into a serious accident due to impairment in judging the speed of a car. I definitely had serious mental impairment which I attributed to the isoflavone supplement. (This was gone by the next day.) I don’t think it was due to an allergic reaction or mini-stroke.
Once before I had similar difficulty in speech when a doctor gave me an atropine-like medicine. Atropine antagonizes acetylcholine action, which triggers some of the nerves involved in memory. Memory is an essential component of speech!
Previously I had thought (based on ignorance) that isoflavones in soy probably had insignificant health effects. After the reaction to the isoflavones, I starting searching Bioabstracts for studies on soy isoflavones. I quickly learned that genistein is a potent inhibitor of tyrosine kinase, a key enzyme in mediating cell responses to our natural cell growth factors. (It had been used for this purpose in over 1000 research studies!) That did not sound like something I wanted in my food! Furthermore, I found several studies that showed that tyrosine kinase is also involved in triggering of nerves involved in memory, and this is blocked by genistein! My memory was flaky enough already and I quit eating soy products, except for a few subsequent trials of soy milk.
Besides inhibition of tyrosine kinase, adverse cognitive effects of soymilk could also be due to anti-estrogenic actions (estrogens are important for speech and memory in both males and females) or to anti-thyroid action. Or maybe to all three!
All my adult life I have been bothered by rather severe seasonal affective disorder (SAD, winter mental sluggishness) when I lived at northern latitudes. In the last two years I have rarely drunk soymilk, but when I did, it seemed to worsen the SAD and each time I felt an undesirable aggressiveness. (A recent study showed soy isoflavones increased the potent androgen dihydrotestosterone in men.) I think my particular physiology made me more susceptible to soy’s adverse effects. Subsequently I learned of the Hawaiian study on elderly Japanese. It was the first time I heard that soy may cause cognitive problems. G.S.
Looks like you may have double-F'ed yourself.
Derek, just lookin' out for you Bro! :-)
Derek is your problem similar to aphasia…
You said that you always assumed they tested on mice because their DNA was so similar to humans. I said that's what I mean, its based on assumptions, trusting in scientists unexplained claims.
I would consider raw milk to be a high quality raw food. The Masai are a raw food culture and I can tell their health really benefits from it.
Another choice of raw food people want to get in to are foods such as sushi and sashami not to mention other raw fish from Vietnamese or Japanese recipes. They can be expensive to buy them but maybe there are some asian markets in the US that sell them already made for cheaper prices. At the least I may look into a recipe book and learn how to make them myself. It's probably a very involving process.
Nope, not aphasia. Both aphasia and apraxia seem exponentially worse than my problem. I sound normal, just slow. Honestly, you probably wouldn't notice I have a problem if you never met me before. You would just think my speech is relatively vanilla. However, you probably would notice if you have talked to me before.
I messaged the doctor who ran that study in Hawaii on soy, and he said the connection was extremely loose, if any, and it may have been a correlation. He told me to give it a few months and see how I feel. That was back in November 2009. Which brings me back to my point. Why is this around even though I've been off soy since mid-October 2009? Seven months! Geez.
I honestly don't think I doubled F'd myself because I don't think Propecia is it. I listed five pointed reasons somewhere above if you care. But I did F myself on the soy. The strange part is, if you research hypothyroidism on the internet, it says it gradually comes about. I first noticed the speaking problem two days after I started soymilk/soy protein. Or my third day on. But because I was taking Propecia at that point and I was aware of drugs having side effects, I didn't stop the soy for the longest time.
I'm on day thirty-five of eight quarts of a milk diet. Milk is natural sure, but this amount is certainly not, and not eating food is probably finally getting to me.
The gentleman who claimed his speech was affected by soy above. I read that story once before. I think he brings up some excellent points. This guy took 50mg of soy in one day. I was routinely consuming 500+mg of soy. It may sound crazy, but I had always drank a lot of milk and juice, and I thought this amount of soymilk was no different than those. After all, you don't need a prescription for food.
I feel like I have three options. Continue the milk diet, switch to a whole foods diet that may or may not include milk, or take a shot in the dark at some potential supplment like acetylecholine or tyrosine kinase. I do know that the substrate of thyroid hormones, or what they're made of, is tyrosine. When iodine is added onto the tyrosine molecule, it becomes T4 or T3.
Ahh. Gotcha, man. Excellent point.
I should have said I routinely consumed 240-500mg/day more or less. Usually soymilk is 30mg/serving or so. Eight servings a carton. Although one brand I started a couple months after and consumed off and on, EdenSoy plain, was up to 75mg/serving I believe.
The 75m/serving soymilk above only had four servings.
Assuming we're on to something in that acetylecholine is crucial for short-term memory and therefore speech, and acetylcholine comes from phosphatidylcholine, a phospholipid, wouldn't eggs be the ideal source of this, or brain, instead of raw milk?
Apparently eggs have about 250mg of choline, compared to about 1mg of choline in whole milk, and about 650mg of phosphatidylcholine, the main componenent of the brain, which includes the 250mg of free form choline. Wow. I think I may just start eating eggs tomorrow. In addition to raw milk of course.
Raw eggs or not? Should I be worried about salmonella? I have a feeling this may tie into a future post of yours on Peskin, omega 3 fatty acids, heat, and oxidation.
I think it is pretty obvious that soy is no food and that one should not even consume small amounts of it. No matter how you look at it – Soy is a poison! It contains large amounts of unsatturated fatty acids and provides estrogen which is associated with every health problem you can think of!
The science behind the "good effects" of isoflavones is mambo jambo at best
Derek, even though I keep looking this stuff up, I agree with JT that you should enlist the help of a physician. I used the help of a very good, nutritionally knowledgeable chiropractor to help me with my thyroid and adrenals. I had to lead him in the right direction a little bit but once we were rolling, he was a great resource for me.
JT, this is off topic here, but you seem to know a lot about adrenal health and Ray Peat.
I've been reading up on his stuff lately and sent him a few messages regarding sugars and adrenal health. I told him that I tried including some orange juice to test it out, and that 20 minutes later I fell asleep and was exhausted for the entire day. My impression was that orange juice is terrible for adrenal health because of the high sugar and potassium, but I just wanted to test it out. His response was that fruits/minerals can make people feel fatigued if they have chronically high adrenaline, but the fatigue was already there in the first place and not caused by the fruit or juice.
Does this make any sense? After reading "Adrenal Fatigue" it doesn't seem that his fruit/juice recommendations would be a good thing.
Hey Derek, I wish I could be helpful but I don't know about your condition. I hope you're able to find the answers you need here or through some sort of health professional. I know how frustrating it is to have health issues that people can't figure out!
Did the speech problem get worse after you discontinued the propecia and continued the soy?
Because if it was solely the soy, it would have continued to get worse.
It might help if you found out what it is about soy that causes hypothyroidism. Is it the estrogens, is it the goitrogens, is it the PUFA's? Then to figure out why the onset wasn't gradual, you would have to try to recall what exactly you were doing or taking those three days when the onset occurred that might have caused the very rapid.
Also, are you sure the speed of your brain hasn't slowed down too, because on the whole, the slow speech of hypothyroidism goes along with slowing down of the thought process, so that it isn't really noticable to the person that they are speaking slowly Their speech is just reflective of the overall slowing down of the whole body.
PS: Why do you think women are supposed to not even let the propecia get on their skin much less into their digestive tract? Could it be because propecia + estrogen is some sort of toxic combination?
Thanks for the comments homies. I've been driving cross-country and getting resettled back in Colorado. I'll see if I can pick through these comments…
I believe that nearly all dietary beliefs out there can have a certain application for certain disorders. My experiences with very low-fat, plant-based diets suggests to me that for a serious inflammatory condition, it could be used with great results. For acute healing – definitely can be used. Sure, it's not sustainable, and most people come to flawed conclusions and go on starving themselves after those good results, but can it be used as a dietary strategy against many diseases? Yes.
180 Digestion still has some good nuggets of info. in there. I plan on extending and revising it before the end of the year. My next big project will be to do a revision on 180 Kitchen – coming up with an HED menu plan specifically, drop the low-carb bias in there, and focus more on keeping omega 6 low.
On Dr. Schulze-
Just because Schulze has created some things that work and improve people's health doesn't mean that he walks on water. His weight loss program sounds pretty dumb to me.
On the Masai-
The Masai men no longer perform much physical activity after the age of 25, when they stop acting as warriors and the women start taking over more of the daily chores. Exercise is certainly not the key to their success, nor was that some kind of theme that Weston A. Price found that kept natives in such excellent condition. Activity levels varied in healthy people.
I don't think the weight gainers will perform any magic tricks, especially when they are typically very high in protein, you are already getting tons of protein, and protein was thought by Broda Barnes to be antagonistic to the metabolism when consumed in excess.
Peat is right, the juice does not cause the problem, it just reveals it when the weakness is already there. The sugars relax the adrenals, so you will feel very weak and tired if your adrenal function is already low. I had the same problem as you when my adrenals were bad. It also dropped my body temperature really low. It would be interesting if you took your temp before and after.
Is this necessarily a bad thing? If it allows them to heal then some temporary fatigue is fine but if it just exacerbates the issue then I might as well stick with starches.
I'm just not always in the mood to eat a heavy starchy meal so it would be nice to replace them with some lighter foods without losing the calories.
And you are right getting a thermometer and glucometer might help with the detective work, I'll see what I can do.
That's a good question Brian, and one reason why I remain open to natural sugars. I know they bring my temps down, and otherwise make my adrenals tank, but at the same time, it's always tough to distinguish between what is healing and what is helping.
In general, I've been led to believe that what medicates a problem, exacerbates the problem.
What aggravates a problem, can often heal a problem over time (but not always).
We shall see. I've been toying with idea of weaning myself off of milk in 10 days and eating lots of fruit but keeping starches low for a short while to get an open-minded side by side comparison. This will be particularly interesting to see as I begin doing quite a bit of exercise in preparation for hiking season in Colorado.
I started soy on Sunday, May 25, 2008. I bought two cartons of Silk original soymilk from Whole Foods, and a bin of Whole Foods soy protein concentrate. I took a Propecia that morning, much like I did the previous sixteen mornings with no problems. I downed both soymilks that day. Some on its own and some in the three or four soy shakes I had. Did the same on Monday. Tuesday I did the same in the late morning-early afternoon, then headed to class, where I noticed my speaking was much choppiier than usual. Now, I did eat other food in addition to this, like Boston Market, whole wheat bread, Middle Eastern food, Quizno's, et cetera. I was out of the country for three months prior to that, so I initially thought it was just getting used to the American accent again. And I thought that for over a week or so. All the time doing more or less the same amount of soy. Now often I would consume one carton, or one and one-half.
Is my mind also slow? Hmm. Possibly. But when I write I feel like it's not remotely as affected as my speech. Don't get me wrong, it may be slower, but I don't necessarily know it.
And my speech hasn't gotten any worse since it first started. Perhaps recently it has getting somewhat better, but the difference isn't remarkable.
I think that Aojounas guy in the new post is a prime example of half-truths. People in the nutrition field often give some spot on information, but not all of their information is correct, and just because you know some is true, doesn't mean the rest is.
This phosphotidylcholine, both as a precursor to the most important neurotransmitter acetylcholine, and in and of itself as the primary component of the brain and the liver looks very, very interesting. The top sources are brain, liver, and egg, then meats. Brain looks like the best source far and away, but that's definitely niche in the American diet. Matt, what are the risks of getting Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease, the human form of mad cow, from consuming organic, grass-fed cow brains? Is the risk zero since they're grass-fed and not fed other brains? Along those lines, is the risk different for consuming conventional steak versus conventional hamburger?
I would think the risk of BSE is pretty low, but even in Colorado the wild elk and deer suffer from a similar form of BSE called "chronic wasting disease." It's not known if this is transmissible to humans at this point, but it shares a similar pathology to mad cow and scrapie for sure.
@ Derek: I have a simular story with Soy, when I was about 16 and got into lifting weights I bought some cheap Soy protein crap which I took everyday for about a month while I was lifting dumbells at home. Soon after I noticed some weird things happening, feeling really spaced out and my thought process would slow down and it would be an effort to get out words, what is weird though is that it comes and goes sometimes for 2 hours a day other times it is rare. This has stuck with me more a less until today (I am 23 now) I have had a full blood panel and all kinds of health checks and everything is fine…….
I have learnt to live with it, as that is all I can do. The more I ignore it though and get on with life the less I notice it. Like anything dwelling on a problem can exacerbate the problem, sometimes a cure will come when you least expect it.
I am trying to heal through a good diet, Schwazerbein style but just eating to appetite rather than any of her portions. My advice to you is stop looking for a quick fix and just start eating food and allowing your body to re-balance and achieve its natural equilibrium….
Seven years eh? Geez. We may or may not have similar symptoms. Hard to say. How many soy shakes did you have a day?
I notice my speech the most in quick conversations, like at a cash register.
You been following Matt for a while or did you just pop up now?
I guess what I'm trying to ask is if there's a difference in consuming conventional versus organic and meat versus hamburger meat versus organ meat, namely brain? Whole Foods sells all their organs grass-fed only, and while they sell liver at the store, they specifically order heart, kidney, and brain for customers if they ask.
Both men and women have androgens and estrogens. Different amounts, obviously. It's not so much Propecia affecting women but potentially affecting a pregnancy. The direction is a legal safeguard. Better to be safe than sorry.
Think I'm on to anything with this phosphotidylcholine?
Did you do some Googling on my behalf? I wonder how you found that other guy who claimed soy messed with his speech. Googling "soy speech" eh?
I've read elsewhere that Masai Warriors would consume different foods than the rest of the tribe as they would leave out fruits and vegetables. Their stable was meats/organs, raw milk, blood, and occasional herbs. I also read they've recently had a drought so their not able to eat as high quality as they used to. They're accepting food sources from modern society and it's impacting their health. If the Masai is getting Atherosclerosis is would probably be more recent since their diet isn't as high quality.
@ Derek: I have been here for a while, since January I think. Recovering Paleo/Primal eater……..
I was taking one shake a day, but it was some real nasty cheap stuff…. Maybe I am wrong and the symptoms are due to other things but it seems too much of a coincidence to me. In fact I have had these bouts for so long now they don't bother me and are more of a nuisance than anything. I am hoping along with a improved metabolism my body will heal itself, along with my thyroid getting a boost and body temp increasing.
Either way I wouldn't be too concerned, when it comes down to it there is only so much you can do. Just continue enjoying your life and eating well and hopefully things will correct themselves.
Cool. I was drinking three or four shakes along with soymilk by itself. But high quality, organic soymilk from Whole Foods, namely Silk and EdenSoy. EdenSoy would be much better quality. Come to think of it, Silk does have an organic soymilk and the rest are natural, meaning not organic, and I may have had the natural one. It was a dark relatively green carton.
Thinking about it again, isn't one of the positives of the milk diet the high calories? Doesn't that fit in with Matt's HED theme?
I Googled various things last night and came across information that brain as food is the highest source of phosphotidylcholine, or choline, I can't remember. But I can't find the page today. Liver and eggs are also very high. Eggs are very high for one egg, and most people eat many eggs, often eight in scrambled eggs. You think eating eggs, liver, and/or brain would do the trick? This acetylcholine seems like perhaps the key in how it relates to nerve health and memory and speech.
Further, it's interesting how soybean is listed as a relatively high source of choline, at least for a plant. Perhaps therein lies the key in that soymilk, while blocking acetylcholine, doesn't provide a neutralizing source. I'm not convinced that soybean is the devil incarnate because at the end of the day, it is a legume and it is a widely consumed food in East Asia. Then again, polar bear and arctic husky liver is usually deadly because of the amount of vitamin a, whereas non-polar animal livers are fine. Not sure if the husky house dog counts.
Brain is such a high source because it's so high in fat, in myelin. One would think that the best way to achieve brain health would be to eat brain, no. I'm wary of Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease, and while somewhat knowledgable about it, am not quite sure the risks of eating grass-fed raw or cooked brain. I wouldn't eat it raw, but theoretically wondering. I will say that eggs and organ meats are the two foods that are absent from my diet. Until today that is. I did eat eggs albeit egg whites for a brief period of time believe it or not in the months prior to my speaking problem starting in 2008. What do you know, today, or May 25, is the two-year anniversary of starting soy.
Sorry about posting so much. I've just been hit with a lot of concepts this week.
I still don't necessarily buy the idea that exercise is bad. Overexercise, yes. But then we have to define overexercise, which may be different for each person. I've had wonderful success, big muscles, no stress, quick wit, exercising several hours a day, six days a week in the past. Yes, I did talk more than I should at the gym, and it wasn't straight working out with little rest, but I knew naturally when I was pushing it. Now that I've said that, you may actually worry.
Also, in five years, or ten years, are you gonna have about a million posts on here? Don't get me wrong, I love the site, but at some point, less is more. It becomes hard to sift through a thousand postings. I think a lot of people, both in the blogosphere and elsewhere, like marketers and iPhone application creators, forget this. All we want sometimes is a phone to call and text people! Perhaps even shorter posts, but everything said very efficiently. Don't worry, I still love you.
Everybody keeps mentioning this Schwarzbein name. I must've missed the boat there. Is she Paleo?
Matt, I'm curious to see how the transition from milk to fruits will go. One thing that concerns me is that I've heard that a diet high in fruit can be damaging to the teeth, especially OJ, although I'm not sure if this is just a myth.
Derek you bring up a good point about "over-exercising". This is where I feel Matt makes a mistake.
Many weight lifters also talk about over training when in fact it is almost impossible to reach that state. I honestly believe that there is no such thing as overtraining/overexercising, just under eating and under sleeping.
The more you exercise – the more you eat, the higher the g-flux.
Derek, yep I was Googlin' on your behalf because I have this drive to help people and would like for you to get better. Unfortunately I don't have the knowledge to give you any advice so I was just throwing some info and links your way that you may not have seen yet to help you find the path. I can't say if consuming brain tissue would be good, bad or harmful…just don't know. I was going to recommend something like Phosphatidylserine (PS) but it used to be made from bovine cortex but because of the fear of disease, they now make it from (you guessed it)…soy.
On another note, perhaps the soy version of actecylcholine is a poor version that the human body does not like, but occupies receptors in the brain that would normally be open to better sources. I don't actually know this…just speculating.
I don't have negative sentiments about exercise, but have always thought it was important to put it in its place.
For one, most people try to exercise and undereat together to create a conscious calorie deficit, which does great harm.
Others have serioius metabolic disorders that they try to meet with exercise, and can do damage as well.
But I've done more exercise than anyone posting here I'd imagine. At one point in my life I would ride my bike 13 miles to go to work, hike 15 miles at work with 30-40 pounds on my back and climb 4,000 feet, and then come back and ride my bike back home another 13 miles. On my days off I would go backpacking with 50 pounds and cover 40 miles – then repeat.
I ate as much as I could, but I'm not Phelps. There's only so much I can eat.
Taking a 6-month break from exercise 5 years ago was up there with the most therapeutic things I've ever done.
Now I know to exercise for fun. For pleasure. And I will do that again this summer. Hiking is still my favorite leisure activity, and I too am becoming unbalanced from lack of exercise.
Schwarzbein is correct when she says that there are over-exercisers and under-exercisers, and that people damage themselves both ways.
The PS and cholines are promising, but I've seen very few miracles arise from supplementation like this. Still, I'd be eager to hear what you find.
Also, in five years, or ten years, are you gonna have about a million posts on here? Don't get me wrong, I love the site, but at some point, less is more. It becomes hard to sift through a thousand postings.
Derek, you have to admit this is rather ironic given what you're doing with the comments section! Personally, I have withdrawals whenever a few days go by without some massive new post to dig through, so I say the more the better. At any rate, I can understand what you're going through and how frustrating it is. I've pretty well sidelined all my other interests in the last year in order to learn as much as I can about health and nutrition. I'm obsessed–believe me–and only because I, like you, feel like I unwittingly lost certain parts of myself through careless food choices and am furthermore determined that sound nutrition holds the key to restoring what I feel I've lost.
But nutrition is only part of the picture, and you also have to consider all the other variables that affect health; for example, stress and sun exposure. During the six years of refined-carbophagia that I blame for my decline in health, I also endured a lot of stress and got very little sun, and for all I know, the latter factors had an even greater impact than the former. And for all you know, if you just focused more on letting go, got off the computer, and spent all that extra time out in the sun instead, maybe your problem would resolve itself given a few months. After all, as Matt said a while back (or something to the effect), trying to be healthy without vitamin D is like trying to play baseball without a pitcher. Good luck! Obviously, I'm not saying vitamin D deficiency necessarily has anything to do with your situation, just that the solution to your situation could be some similarly simple lifestyle adjustment (working in concert with all the nutritional improvements you've already made).
Regardless, if you spend too much time stressing out over this, you know you'll only be routing all your nutrients away from healing the actual problem in order to fuel your *stress response* to the problem instead! And that's not so productive. Keep looking for answers, but also focus on enjoying the world, your friends, and your food, and I'd imagine everything will sort itself out in time.
Thanks Mike. Sage advice.
Hah. Good point, bro.
Believe it or not, I've actually never really been stressed my entire life. I'm twenty-six. Not in high school. College. After. There were some moments of, "Hmm, I have a lot of work. Better get started. Easiest first, and that'll propel me through. And ESPN." But honestly, I might make an interesting case study in that regard to stress. I went to grad school and just graduated, so honestly, besides stupid internships and summer jobs, I've never had a real job that may or may not cause stress. And luckily, I live at home and currently have a part-time job while I look for a real job, but there's no financial pressure to work twenty-five hours a day. Trust me, stress and sun are not the problem. I still love you. =)
I see that phosphotidylcholine and the other phospholipids seem to be made from soy. How ironic would that be if soy is the thing that pushed me on this health odyssey and also the thing to bring me back? I just starting eating eggs and beef liver, two foods very high in phosphotidylcholine. Beef liver is the second-highest, behind brain. There's a dude named Andrew Lessman who I came across on Home Shopping Network over the years, and more recently on YouTube, who has such a soothing voice. He owns a vitamin company and, in my opinion, seems to come at you with an honest, almost psychologist-like comfort. His phosphotidylcholine is made from soy. He seems to be a guy I honestly trust. He always mentions, which is key, that your diet comes first, and vitamins are there for parts of your diet that you may not be getting.
You've definitely done more exercise than me! But I can guarantee I've done more weightlifting than you. =) Nonetheless, when you mention you mention these phospholips are promising but you've seen very little miracles coming from these, does that mean you've seen at least some miracles, and are you only referring to supplement form or also food form rich in phospholipis, like eggs and liver?
By the way, after day thirty-five of the milk diet, I officially stopped the stringent version of milk alone. The last several days I went down to six quarts from eight. I was having a hard time stomaching it. Plus, milk doesn't seem that rich in phosphotidylcholine compared to eggs or liver. Don't get me wrong, I haven't stopped milk. I'm still drinking four to six quarts a day, but I've added eggs and beef liver amongst other whole foods. Whether I take up the full milk diet in a couple weeks or so, I don't know. I'll play it by ear. But I will return to the sauna and working out, two things I stopped when I began my milk sojourn.
I forgot to ask. Where did you come across the information that soy blocks acetylcholine? Your mention of this made me recall something. It made me connect to how I used to speak. I used to know what I was saying in my mind in advance and my mouth would just follow that. Now, the time is much shorter as if I'm not processing stuff as fast.
Derek, I don't remember…I was just bein' a Googlin' fool trying to find stuff, LOL!
Eggs apparently lose choline content as they cook. What is better, raw or cooked? Should I worry about salmonella in raw eggs? I know that Arnold Schwarzenegger used to use raw eggs in his protein shakes as a young man. Would scrambling eggs affect some balance in the egg yolk or affect lysozyme and lead to some irritation?
I bought a couple large grass-fed beef livers at the store and while good and hearty, I definitely only had room for one. Having another would have been a bit hard to stomach. I'm debating potentially using a phosphatidylcholine and choline supplement, although those are almost always made from soy.
Derek, i would suggest soft boiling the eggs in the shell very lightly and then cracking them into some raw milk and mixing it all together like a eggnog.
I know what you mean about the liver. After a certain amount its impossible to eat more. I take it as a sign and stop eating it.
Have you ceases the "bed rest" yet?
I haven't bed rested at all. I think that's overrated. I'm not sickly invalid and I have to go to work for a portion of the day. Don't get me wrong, with the exception of a few weeks in February and March, I haven't really worked out since last December, and I didn't work out at all last fall. I'm pretty much chilling as much as possible without bed resting. I think that's unreasonable unless you're ghastly ill.
I've been eating about twelve eggs scrambled a day four four days now. Haven't noticed a difference in my speaking. Still drinking four to six quarts of raw milk.
I think it would be interesting to see if somebody else replicated my diet — drinking as much soymilk and soy protein as possible a day — that caused my speaking problems, but instead of staying on it for seventeen months, stopping after, say, a couple weeks.
I'm so lost for words. I've been off of soy one hundred percent, not that whole organic soy is bad, since mid-October, more than seven months ago, with no noticeable improvement in my speech. I think desperate would be a good word.
Some of those phosphatidylcholine/choline supplements direct the user to take one or more scoops daily. I wonder what "or more" actually mean. Fourteen scoops? I wonder if that might not be a bad idea, to use one of those supplements. Honestly, in searching "soy speech" on Google, I came across another guy, a plant physiology PhD, who claimed soy isoflavone extract adversely affected his speech and cognitive function. But he wasn't on some pharmaceutical even for a short time to blame things on, so he stopped. He mentioned that soy blocks — obviously dependant on how much you're consuming i.e. an extraordinary amount — acetylcholine which is the top neurotransmitter in the body and essential for memory which is paramount in speech. Which makes sense because when I speak now, I feel like the time frame from me thinking about it to speaking it is exponentially shorter than before. But I have no problem whatsoever reading aloud from something. I was thinking about this last part recently. So I would think acetylcholine might be the key here, and perhaps not thyroid or some estrogen-testosterone imbalance.
I know you were into bodybuilding and remembered that Charles Poliquin (strength & bbing coach) is big on choline supps. Here is a product that he has that you may be interested in:
I've consumed many a raw egg. Lived to tell about it. Never got sick. Good quality pastured eggs are much easier on my stomach though – still kinda bug me. I don't do the raw eggs anymore, but I certainly don't fear salmonella from them.
Thanks for the link, I appreciate it. Interesting. My only concern is that the product seems to be a much more processed, unnatural, form of phosphatidylcholine. That said, I feel like I've painted myself in a corner on my own doing, albeit not intentionally, and would perhaps be willing to try something that is a bit more powerful of a supplement. As far as Charles Poliquin, I personally wouldn't take dietary advice from someone with thinning hair. Further, it seems the product is made by Poliquin, so his opinion might not be very unbiased. Although it might! And regardless of his dietary advice, he may have pretty solid workout advice. But YouTube "ghetto workout". I used to work out with weights. Now I only do bodyweight exercises and I'm as ripped as ever and doing less work.
Riles, since you seem like a pretty knowledgable guy, you have any comments on the much-debated nutritional areas of potatoes (as high glycemic), tomatoes (as part of the much-maligned nightshade family), nuts (supposedly high in omega-six fatty acids), and wild fish (with their supposed mercury content)? My view is that all are great foods since evolution seems to have dictated they are fit for human consumption and they're natural, whole foods. After all, omega-six fatty acids are essential.
I stopped the strict version of the milk diet at thirty-five days, however through today, day forty, I haven't noticed a difference in my speaking. But still, I think this acetylcholine affecting short-term memory might be crucial. It makes sense in terms of how I feel speaking. By the way, how did you hear about this product?
What does "still kinda bug me" mean? And you have any comments on the product Riles mentioned?
I guess alpha glycerophosphocholine is a natural precursor of acetylcholine, the neurotransmitter. I thought choline and/or phosphatidylcholine were precurors. I'm missing some step in the chemistry here me thinks. That said, the quick Wikipedia blurb on alpha showed a study that looked promising.
I was introduced to Poliquin by a gym buddy that is certified under his program. My buddy is a real Poliquin nut, he takes all his supps and the like! Anyway, after reading much of his stuff Charles P I think is a very good trainer because he is multi-dimensional in that he focuses on hormones and individuality. I obviously dont agree with everything he says but alot I do.
As far as diet is concerned, I have a few opinions about it but these are only due to my personal experiences. I love potatoes, I eat at least 5 lbs each day. I think they are very close to a perfect food. I don't think that the glycemic index is really valid at all because it is different for each individual and it can by effected by many external sources.
Another opinion of mine is that all plant foods are here for people to selectively eat and grow for our needs and consumption. With the possible exception of maybe some GMO's(only because these potentially may be a completely different thing).
I personally avoid excess omega 6 but various nuts are traditional and I think if prepared properly and not eaten all the time they are fine.
I think the mercury/fish scare may be over exaggerated and I think that if a person has a healthy metabolism, mercury should be dealt with just fine. If I lived near a coast I would consume fish as 90% of my protein source.
You are absolutely right about bodyweight exercise. I have recently incorporated it and I feel it is probably one of the best forms of exercise, I mean look at Jack Lalanne.
Have you looked at maybe some speech exercises? Maybe you have to "re-teach" yourself once you are de-soyed.
My dad mentioned a while back that I should go see a speech therapist, but I've always thought that was fixing a peripheral problem and not the source. I never thought about my speaking twice before late May 2008. I've had people comment that I sound like I have an accent, but in my opinion, it's actually a product of this speaking thing and intonating various syllables a bit differently.
You suggested before I look into eating a lot of potatoes. Not that anyone cares, but I do think regular potatoes are much tastier than yams or sweet potatoes, two foods Paleo people seem to have an odd love affair with.
Last but not least, the difference in phosphatidylcholine, the phospholipid, and alpha glycerylphosphocholine seems to be that the latter crosses the blood-brain barrier because it's water soluble and the former doesn't because, as a phospholipid, it's by definition a waxy substance. Perhaps this is important. On the short Wikipedia blurb, it mentions that a study of over two-thousand people who suffered strokes — forget if it mentions Alzheimer's — measured in four different ways showed excellent improvement in ways cognition is manifest on alpha glycerylphosphocholine. Have any thoughts on one versus the other or even taking both?
Alpha GPC and PC as well as acetyl carnitine, another potential brain supplement although not sure how it stacks up or fits in compared to GPC and PC, and coq10, a supplement used for energy production that takes place in the mitochondria, are all found in natural forms, but I'm thinking of the supplement to boost things. Assuming I consume meats, organ meats, eggs, and milk, foods that contain these things in the most amounts, why am I considering supplements? Perhaps something like alpha GPC really works, and works well much faster, I guess.
Another thought. What is your view on farm-raised salmon where color is added? I assume many, if not most, restaurants that sale salmon on the menu buy farm-raised unless they say otherwise. Which is one reason I go to Chipotle a lot. Their meat is raised on a natural diet, albeit not sure if it's grass-fed or not. Which Matt says makes a marginal difference.
I've been off of soy one hundred percent coming up on eight months in mid-June. Now, before my speaking problem, I did consume some soy in the form of soy yogurt, but I never had more than a couple a day because of the sugar content. But never had any problems then. And I wouldn't make a point to have them everyday. This guy Bernarr Macfadden says that dietary wrongs can remain for while after the diet has been corrected, but he doesn't mention why. He does seem to talk a lot about increased circulation as a universal remedy. Removes toxicity and increases nutrients. Now, I just added raw whole milk to my diet about forty days ago, but I've made a point to consume a lot. Perhaps it will take more time. But that's what I thought back in October. "Give it a few months. Three to six months." Well, I do have my diet under control. Although raw milk shouldn't be a requirement for speaking well. Many cultures do without raw milk and seem to do perfectly fine. And there was a six-week period between me stopping milk in early April 2008 and me starting soymilk in late May 2008 where I felt fine as usual.
In my opinion, if the animal is healthy enough to reproduce viable young, then it is fine to eat. That is just one of my caveats that keeps me from getting too paranoid about food quality.
I personally try to eat my standard diet of potatoes, beef, eggs, a little vegetable matter and small amount of coconut oil. Occasionally I will eat more standard fare, but try to keep it infrequent.
Although I dont think supplements should be necessary, your case may be different and you may actually benefit from it. It is hard to tell whether hyper-dosing somethings will actually help the situation. I know that it is obviously possible as HG's would remedy things by consuming certain plants just for such certain situations.
I am curious what your diet looks like now you are off the milk only thing. How many times are you eating a day and how often?
Also when you were doing your "ghetto workouts" bodyweight exercises, were you doing those every day? To the exclusion of regular weight training?
What is HG?
My diet consists of whole fruits, vegetables, grains — primarily brown rice and corn, meat, DHA-enriched eggs for the most part, and raw whole milk. Each day, I don't quantify exactly when and how much I eat. I go by feel. When I feel hungry I eat. When I don't I don't. I still down about four to six quarts of raw milk, instead of eight, about eight eggs, perhaps some fruit like oranges, blueberries, cherries, kiwi, perhaps some vegetablesl like celery, carrots, potatoes, and some steak or chicken. I don't consume beef unless it's organic, preferably grass-fed. I do eat a fair amount of Thai and Japanese food, and Mexican, like Chipotle. So black beans and/or pinto beans. And brown rice in the Asian cuisine. I don't eat the white rice at Chipotle. That's generally how I eat, more or less, each day. I stick to whole foods, whether that means from the store or restaurant. And whether I restart the full-blown milk diet in a week or so we'll see.
I started doing bodyweight exercises in March. I haven't done exercises with weights since. Before, I worked out vigorously with weights alone — the normal way — since I started working out in 2001. I started following the Arnold Schwarzenneger Encyclopedia of Bodybuilding competition program in summer 2003. I've been thinking about the switch for a while, and the reason I switched was three-fold. First, with bodyweight exercises, you never have to worry about how much weight to put on or taking off weight. You go till you're fatigued. But mainly, I always wondered how people pre-machines and pre-industrialization worked out hamstrings. It seems impossible. Sure, you could do straight leg deadlift, but holding a rock or log to do that would seem a bit awkward, and perhaps slightly better than pure bodyweight. The only logs that would be heavy would be too large around. Third, when you work out chest you also work out triceps and shoulders and when you work out back you also work out biceps. Then I work out shoulder, which works out triceps again at a rate that exceeds the rate you're secondarily working out biceps. I just followed Arnold's program for years without actually thinking. Don't get me wrong, it works to build muscle. But so does bodyweight exercises. Plus, if I travel anywhere in the world, I can do bodyweight in a moment and don't have to worry about finding a gym, blah blah.
When you think about it, I put myself in this hole my hyperdosing with soy in the form of a ton of soymilk and soy protein. Which is why I wonder if lecithin/phosphatidylcholine and/or alpha-GPC would work. The latter crosses the blood-brain barrier apparently because it's water soluble. All that said, both products are made from soy almost all the time.
HG = Hunter/gatherers
You make a good point about the hyper-dosing soy. I wonder if the way the soy milk is processed it removes the lectins/cholines/GPC when separated. Would the same thing happen eating the whole bean? I have seen how home-made soy milk is done and it is basically pureed beans and water that is strained. Is the industrial form made from the remains of making tofu??
I think it is interesting how sometimes the problem(soy) many times may hold the answer(alpha-GPC??)
I forgot to ask, did the increased soy make a difference in your thinning hair?
This is just a little tangent but, one thing that I just remembered is galactose, one of the saccharides that makes up lactose in milk. It is also known as "brain sugar". Maybe milk is important in your recovery.
I will definitely continue on raw milk. I do love it. The store I usually go to was closed yesterday and today, and I forgot to go on Saturday, so I feel like part of my life is missing.
My hairline and hair have no thinning whatsoever that I can tell. Back in spring and for the months before when I was almost paranoid about this, my hairline was fine but I was concerned the area behind the hairline looked thin ot it was just various lighting. The dermatologist I went to eyed my hair and told me it was thinning but only at the very, very beginning stages. The soy didn't seem to hurt my hair. I was eating a pretty solid diet aside from that, although I was eating a fair amount of white rice, whole wheat bread (I'm wary of the way whole wheat bread is prepared), sandwich meat, and juice, four things I don't eat anymore. This whole situation has the possibility of being the best thing to ever happen to me because I feel like I've solved the riddle of health at least as it pertains to male pattern baldness. My personality is pretty obsessive, in a good way, so I feel like this whole thing had to have happened. It's hard for me to go if I'm not going one hundred percent, hence the massive amounts of soymilk. But yea, my hair shows absolutely no thinning that I can tell. And it's two years later. I do know Mongolians consume raw milk and meat and little vegetables but also some sugar and white flour in the form of dumplings, so I know some bad stuff can be overcome with good food. They seem to be a culture of excellent hair health. Honestly, I don't think retaining solid hair is that hard. It comes down to solid eating. Stuff you and I know as second nature, like diet Coke and Coke being bad, people don't know, and wonder why they have an array of problems. Another thing I'm interested in is why engineers and scientists, many who are very smart, have thinning hair. Or think of college students at excellent schools who eat pizza and drink beer (I don't drink much, but I throw it in every so often when I'm out). You would think people could be smarter and process things faster if they ate better, but they don't make that connection. Look at Einstein. He was balding. Perhaps their focus is solely on their work, physics, and anything else is not worth looking at. Perhaps like me and chemistry/male pattern baldness. I just wish I had the same motivation for physics or software engineering they had so I wouldn't be stuck looking for a real job because I made the mistake of majoring in political science.
Dude, if soy is the thing to get me back, that would be some cruel irony. I thought the same when I started consuming raw milk again as milk, albeit pasteurized, is the thing that put me on this journey. I think it makes sense that if one eats whole soybeans, even a lot, there is something in them to neutralize any negative effect. Sort of how fiber in fruit neutralizes the fructose. And this something is probably missing in soymilk, you're right. Which is why studies on soy using soymilk are very unreliable. Soybean is a legume after all. I pretty much went through college eating Chipotle almost everyday, two burritos with double black beans, and never had any problems.
I checked out the lecithin at the store, and while the store I went to didn't have alpha GPC, I know a store that does. As far as lecithin, I saw one bin with lecithin granules with 10,000 mg a serving, of which 2,300 mg are phosphatidylcholine. That's the thing I hate about supplements. The fact you have to measure them. But perhaps this is the missing piece.
Thats my problem with supplements too, measuring and figuring out how before the antidote becomes the poison.
I must admit that I dont know much about balding and dont really have any family history of it. You make some interesting points about it. I believe that native Americans dont really suffer from it either. Is that what you have found too?
I myself have never had any real health problems except for the fact that I was fairly fat from 3rd grade through my second year of college when I decide to go low carb and begin weight lifting then shifted to a high carb lower but sat fat dominated diet. I am now lean and muscular, but I am still trying to piece together what it was that made me get fat and stay fat even while playing sports.
I always consumed alot of soda(like 6 cans a day) and have always had a sweet tooth. I also have an enormous petite and could probably be a competitive eater with a little training so its hard to know what the cause was.
Yes, Native Americans traditionally have no male pattern baldness. If you look around the world, any culture that eats traditional whole foods has no male pattern baldness. The more refined sugar and refined grains, or processed foods, they eat the more health problems they have, including baldness. There is no one magic food, like soy. Just hearty eating no matter your location.
Six sodas a day is a ton, dude. I'm surprised you didn't have type two diabetes at some point. What's in soda — a ton of salt, sugar, and acids. Remember, the body is a symphony, and consuming that amount of salt and sugar can be manifest in many ways, including weight gain. Perhaps that amount of sugar caused chronic insulin levels, which led to chronic inflammation, and fat is the result. Insulin is a fat-storing hormone. That said, potatoes and dates are whole natural foods yet apparently are high glycemic foods. Matt mentioned there is a bit more to the story with these things. But look at how you got slim and then decide precisely what you were doing before that caused you to stay fat. Intuition is a pretty good art.
Not sure if Matt will actually read this, hah. There's one other option I can think of that's not related to whole foods at all but perhaps to the effects they bring. It's not natural but not unnatural like a lovely pharmaceutical. Hyperbaric oxygen therapy for problems that stem from something in the brain. Any comment on this?
I'm not Matt or Riles, so I hope you don't mind if I add my 2 cents. Getting oxygen to the brain is a good idea, but according to Ray Peat, all you need to do is breath into a brown bag or move to a higher altitude. Thinning and cleaning out your blood is good, too, because then your blood can carry more oxygen.
You need both decent adrenal status and good iron status (ferritin at 70-90 without inflammation) to tolerate any thyroid hormone, otherwise the T3 just pools in your blood, leaving you with "unhypo" labs but hypo at a cellular level. Doesn't matter if you're talking about thyroid you take or the homemade stuff, you need cortisol and iron to use it.
If you have one of several problems that cause reverse T3 to be made from T4, you won't get better until you're on enough T3 to completely suppress your own T4 production for several months. rT3 binds more tightly to the T3 cell receptors than T3 does, and rT3 is what makes bears hibernate. all the Armour in the world is not going to do anything but exacerbate that problem. Good site on rT3: http://thyroid-rt3.com/
To the person asking about T3 weaning…. yes. Do it gradually to allow your own thyroid to come back online. When you're actually "living" on T3, with no T4, you're at risk of myxedema coma if you stop suddenly.
Also, to the person taking both Isocort and DHEA, that's counterproductive. Cortisol lowers DHEA and DHEA lowers cortisol. The adrenals group I'm involved with recommends fixing cortisol first, as that will make a larger impact on your well-being than DHEA. In the meantime, if testosterone is low, that should be taken directly, not DHEA. Once adrenals are well cured wrt cortisol, and standing on their own, one can consider DHEA if it remains low.
About licorice… this only works for a specific profile, those who have adrenals strong enough to pump out the necessary amounts in the morning and then drop through the day. Licorice extends the life of cortisol, so is effective for those with this particular salivary diurnal profile. Also has some mineralcorticoid effect so may be helpful for those with low aldosterone, but because of this effect, is contraindicated for those with elevated bp.
As for how temps throughout the day effect health, basically when day-to-day averages of 3 temps throughout the day are within 0.2 degrees F, that is an indicator of adrenal stability. When the same temps average 98.6, that is a sign of enough thyroid. Details here: http://faqhelp.webs.com/temperatures.htm (the method is from Dr. Rind).
Also, I like Dr. Davis a great deal, though I don't agree with him about everything. Lots of good information there. And he's quite agreeable to letting you argue all over his blog and the Track Your Plaque forums, I've disagreed all over the place. Good guy.
Thanks for the comments. I really don't want to add any unnecessary factors to my situation. Adding any kind of natural thyroid hormone and/or cortisone is really treating the peripheral problem and not the core. In my opinion. I took Nature-Throid, a natural desiccated thyroid, for about seven weeks in January-February and felt my heart rate beat much faster than normal, but only when I started working out. I don't want to take any chances with that stuff. Thyroid hormone isn't natural. ;-) I was fine my first twenty-four to twenty-five years without it.
Also, there is a lot of debate even amongst so-called experts on how desiccated thyroid works. For example, why would are bodies produce T4 to be converted into T3 if T3 was the active hormone? What's the purpose of T4? I guarantee it wouldn't be there if it wasn't essential for something, so overriding it with extraneous T3 seems like a bad idea. It seems like a potential way to shut down natural thyroid hormone if taken too long.
What is myxedema by the way? I thought it was just another word for low-thyroid function.
Yes I'm still reading this thread. No thoughts about oxygen therapy though.
Myxedema is severe hypothyroidism – causing massive fluid retention (accumulation of mucin to be exact). I agree that it is very difficult to tinker with thyroid hormones in isolation and expect no negative counter-reaction.
What do you think of my theory? Processing soymilk requires removing lecithin/phosphatidylcholine from the whole soybean, and lecithin neutralizes any negative effect any compound in soy might have. For example, I ate Chipotle in college pretty much everday — two burritos with double black beans, and never had any problems.
It's interesting. It's obviously not something I've given too much thought. I can say with certainty that soy milk is gnarly shiz though.
I might analogize soymilk to soy as fruit juice is to fruit. Fruit juice leaves out the fiber that neutralizes the fructose. Soymilk leaves out the pulp, the fiber and lecithin, which would only make sense if it neutralized some effect of the soy's isoflavones or whatever. I've definitely downed an entire Welch's grape juice in the past, but definitely never made a point to down one or even two a day like I did soy.
I'm checking out a neurologist who seems to specialize in speech to see what they say. I feel like I'm on the right path with my whole foods diet, including raw whole milk, and possibly even throwing in the lecithin/phosphatidylcholine, but I feel like seventeen months of soy binging, if you will, put me in a huge hole.
Anyhow, I appreciate you humoring me with your responses, bro!
I was wondering if you had any other negatives while you were on all the soy. I have always heard that soy is estrogenic.
How has your body composition changed as you went from lots of pasteurized milk, to lots of soy milk, to now?
No real noticeable changes going from one to the other to now. My initial thought going to soymilk and soy protein in May 2008 was that it wouldn't be as powerful as whey protein and milk and I would be tired in the gym and gain less mass. I didn't notice a difference. Only in my speech. Now, perhaps there was a difference in my body composition with the massive amounts of soy, but it wasn't obvious, and definitely not so compared to my speech. I'm pretty ripped. Now, I will say that as time went on and I became less motivated to work out because of my speech, and took a month to several months off at once, I noticed my six-pack becoming a bit less defined. Don't get me wrong, at those times I was much fitter than average joes. Just not like what I used to be, honestly probably bordering on fitness model in the physique department at least.
Throughout my nutritional odyssey I've come across people who say if you have cancer or you're terminally ill with cancer, water fast and/or juice fast (I believe with whole fruits and vegetables juiced). Then we have Macfadden saying that long water fasts deplete minerals from teeth and can potentially cause cavities. So what is better for somebody with a disease like cancer or, really, any big problemic illness, to water fast or to start eating right, meaning whole natural foods? Presumably, people get themselves in a bad position by bad diet and clearly by water fasting you're not eating bad, and that only gives you the opportunity to start eating better. If you start eating bad again, you're going to be in the same hole.
i found this article by ray peat to be interesting on the topic of cancer: http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/lactate.shtml
So Ray Peat says to look at nutrition to increase carbon dioxide levels which will decrease lactate levels? It's interesting how he mentions thyroid hormone to increase carbon dioxide levels. If this is so, then why has this hyperbaric oxygen therapy received a lot of good press?
"hyperventilation decreases carbon dioxide, and increases serotonin and histamine. Hyperoxia itself contributes to lung injury, and exacerbates emphysema, though it is common to see patients breathing a high concentration of oxygen."
"The inflammatory state that causes exaggerated cellular permeability is very closely related to "hyperventilation," the loss of too much carbon dioxide. The release of serotonin during hyperventilation isn't the only cause of vascular leakage; the carbon dioxide itself is an essential factor in regulating the state of cellular electrons and in maintaining cellular integrity. Hyperventilation, like the shift from oxidative to glycolytic energy production that typifies estrogenized or stressed cells or cancer, raises intracellular pH. In the case of mast cells, increasing alkalinity causes them to release histamine (Alfonso, et al., 2005), but similar "alkaline-induced exocytosis" seems to occur in all stressed tissues."
Maybe the high inflammation do to the hyperoxia has a short term positive healing effect???
I am curious how often you do your bodyweight routine and what exercises you commonly use. To me it seems that bw exercises are a great supplement to weightlifting, but I would find it hard to base a sole workout with them.
I am impressed you were able to do Arnold's routine for as long as you did. I just looked at it today in my copy of the book. You must have been eating a lot of food to recover for each workout.