Not-so-little anymore Martin has been contacting me for quite a while now. He doesn’t play around in the comments section, but hits me up directly. He’s a good kid, and already has two very extreme diets under his belt, which you’ll hear about shortly from the kid himself. Anyway, he’s undergone quite a body transformation since the vegan/fasting combo. of his late teens. Look at that little Belgian stud over there chugging some milk, up 23 kg (50 pounds). Now that’s something to “Bragg” about. Why eat the green grass he’s standing next to when a cow will turn that into milk for you – and enjoy doing it? My comments on his post are IN RED.
Hello 180-followers ! I’m Martin, I’m 22 and I’m from Belgium. You have never heard of me because I don’t really post on the blog much (just a couple of anonymous posts). But Matt has definitely heard of me (sorry again for bothering you so often with all my questions)! I started following his recommendations in January this year. But to give you a better idea of my story, I must go back a couple of years.
I think most of my problems started when I was 18 and discovered Buddhism. Hilarious way to put it Martin. Keep morality away from your mouth, which reminds me of a great South Park episode.
I became extremely interested in it and started practicing meditation on a daily basis. I joined a meditation group (Zen Soto) and I quickly became a vegetarian as everyone there was a vegetarian. I didn’t know much about nutrition then and I honestly didn’t care at all. I wanted to save all those poor animals !! It took a good year before I started feeling really ill without knowing why. That’s when I started being interested in health. Unfortunately, I got interested in people like Bragg, Shelton and other crazy hygienists and I believed everything they said ! I thought that my problems were probably due to the dairy products and eggs I was still eating and I decided to become a strict vegan.
That was in January two years ago. I was getting worse, and pretty quickly, but I refused to accept it. So I embarked on a long fast, hoping it would cure all my problems. I wanted to do a complete fast until the ?natural return of hunger? but my mum (and my family) freaked out and I accepted to stop after 11 days. I was 59 kg for 1m 81 ! I was awfully skinny! Fasting is probably a great tool for many health problems – unfortunately it is the starved vegetarian/vegan/religious nut that usually turns to fasting to solve health problems – and fasting is sheer poison for an under-nourished little twig.
After the fast, my digestion got terrible, (probably from low gastrin secretion and slow transit time) I couldn’t put on any weight and my sex drive had simply disappeared! That’s when I realised that I was wrong. As you may have understood, I’m really into extremes so I started being interested in low carb diets. In only a few weeks, I transitioned from a vegan diet to a VLC (very low carb) diet ! I stayed on the VLC diet from September until December (one and a half years ago). Then in December, I decided to follow a strict carnivorous diet. I stayed on this ZC (zero carb) diet for a whole year! The reason why I wanted to try this extreme diet was not for weight loss reasons but because I was feeling unwell and believed it was caused by candida overgrowth and as many of you may know: ?Carbs feed candida so stay away from them?. I took the advice to the extreme. Martin was able to rebuild alot of lost muscle mass on zero carb, as you can see in the photo below – a big improvement over a vegan diet and fasting for sure.
I saw initial improvements but they quickly stopped after a few months. But I stayed on the diet because I was afraid to add carbs back as I thought they would make me feel even worse. It’s only when my sex drive started to plummet that I decided to try something new. I had a long conversation with Christopher Rosenfelt and we decided to try the diet recommended by Kwasniewski. We were interested in Matt’s recommendations but it seemed too crazy. Especially because of Bruce and his insane posts !! But my interest grew and I finally decided to read Matt’s books to see what it was really all about. It made a lot of sense to me and I decided to start following his recommendations in January this year.
To my complete amazement, adding all those carbs back did not influence my candida symptoms at all ! Most of them actually improved (brain fog, fatigue, yeast infection, white tongue, digestive disorders, IBS, etc.). I’m not feeling 100% better now but my health has clearly improved and I think that most people could confirm it. I can’t really give you much information about my body temperature because I didn’t really check it out much. I did it once and it was too low but when I left the thermometer for 10min under my arm, it became normal. So I stopped checking it. I checked my blood sugar levels though. At first, I was close to 120 four hours after eating. But today, I checked again and I was 114 after 1 hour and 95 after 1 hour 50. So my insulin sensitivity seems to have improved a lot ! These are still a little bit high, but definitely a big improvement. There’s no question that insulin sensitivity improves when eating a quality mixed diet to appetite. Hopefully you’ll drop each reading by about 10 points. If not, those are still respectable numbers. As long as they don’t start rising with age, you’re in good shape.
As for my weight, I’m now 82kgs and I’m pretty thin. I don’t know my fat percentages but your can see my abs and intercostal muscles (I assume you are considerably leaner than you were in the ZERO CARB photo based on this description). So I think it is pretty clear in my case that eating HED does not cause excessive weight gain. I was 78 on the ZC diet so I put on 4kg. I guess that 2 of those are water, and then maybe some muscle and fat. I don’t really know but I don’t look fatter and you can definitely see at my chest and shoulders that I have added some muscle. I look very muscular now. Many people have commented on my new physique.
There are a few things I would like you to remember from my story. First, please, PLEASE, don’t ever listen to vegans and vegetarians. Block your ears and run away unless you want to screw your health big time. (Stick your fingers in your ears! One of my favorite sayings!) Just like a famous French puppet says about commercials: “Je bouche mes yeux, je cache mes oreilles… Et je regarde pas! La pub? BAAAH!! ( = “I block my eyes, I hide my ears and I look away… Commercials?? BEEERK”). Then I would say that you mustn’t believe most candida websites blaming it on carbs. I had all candida symptoms and none of them got worse when I ate more carbs. I believe that sugar is the real culprit and I can’t eat too much fruit without feeling like crap. Yes, carb-restriction does nothing for candida, except perhaps make a person hypersensitive to carbohdyrates.
I hope you enjoyed my story !
I wish you all the best luck for whatever health goal you are pursuing!
Nice post Martin! We both came from zerocarb and we've both seen about the same results eating a natural type HED. I too have gained a lot of muscle and strength with the addition of many potatoes and rice and my "candida symptoms" didn't get worse.
However, I too feel worse if I start eating unrefined sugar or too much fruit, whether if it's candida related or not doesn't really matter at this point. We just gotta keep eating to whatever works the best for us!
Thanks Chris. My girlfriend and I are the same. Starches fine. Too much sugar – bad. Fruit – worst of all. Mmmm, yeasty.
Every once in a while I feel sorta bummed out that I ever dieted at all. This morning I noticed how nice my hair and skin looked and thought, sadly if only I'd have done a milkover before my wedding instead of starving myself to lose 10 pounds. That was the beginning of diet madness.
I can at least be glad that I never did vegan or zero carb to myself. Lucky for Martin, he was young and able to rebound fairly quickly. Glad you're feeling better.
Great post Martin, these kind of the things are always good to see and I know how hard it is to drop previous dietary beliefs and move onto something else.
Your weights seem pretty similar to mine, I was about 78KG (1m 83) on Paleo/starvation diet then moved up to 82-83KG on a mixed diet HED stylie and I have gained some good muscle mass and strength in the gym. My weight seems pretty stable now and if anything some fat has been dropped and my body is morphing into a more lean and muscular 83kg.
The funny thing is, all my adult life my set weight had been around 83kg, whether this will change in time with a low PUFA and real food diet we shall see…..
I would be interested to know what a day of eating looks like for you at the moment?
Jenny, I know exactly what you're talking about. My nails have been growing so fast and are so incredibly strong since doing HED w/ milk. My hair is radiant as well, and I swear it's growing faster. I feel like no one believes me when I tell them my secret :]
HED for life! Woooo!
I don't know how relevant this is, but I felt I must share! – On Friday I was out in the sun, walking around Portland all day without sunscreen (mind you, I'm a fair skinned, blonde Northern European that lives in the rainy Pacific Northwest… so I burn easily) and I actually got a nice bit of a tan for the first time in my life! No burn!
Ahhhh, I'm so happy. I don't know if you could tell :]
Yeah, Katerina, my husband and I often joke that we are the two palest people on the planet, exceeded perhaps only by our offspring who has such fair skin, it's almost translucent. Not only have I been eschewing the sun screen this year, but I've been letting the little nipper go without as well. No burns so far. No tans either, but it's early days yet and I think a life time of never being able to tan might take a while to overturn.
My fingernails are ridiculous right now. I have to cut them every 7 days.
I think another reason people have sunburn issues is irregular sun exposure. If you are outside every day, you don't burn. If you stay inside in a cubicle under flourescent lights for 4 months and then go to Tahiti you get nuked. But even in a place like Hawaii a lil' white boy like me can still get to a point – rather quickly, where I can be out from 11am to 3pm with no sunscreen and no shade and be A-okay.
If I took a week off from being outside though, I could get burned.
In a roundabout, 180 kinda way, sunburn is caused by spending too little time in the sun, not too much.
Yeah, the fingernails…it's almost like my body is trying to grow hooves….wait a minute!
Depends how much fruit you define as "too much". I've never had a problem with fruit and, when not on the milk diet, consume a solid amount of fruit. I'm not a fruitarian, however. Remember, fruit is natural. I don't know if I necessarily buy the "too much fruit is bad" argument. Perhaps I don't not buy it. But we can all agree too much fruit juice is bad.
I am curious to know how much protein those who have seen good improvements with the milk diet were consuming prior to the milk diet.
Matt, I know you said that you were eating relatively small portion of protein each day (100g or less?)
I looked into the tanning booths and it looks like they only really use UVA rays. No UVB. Thanks, no.
I guess I'll have to try doing this gradual sun exposure thing with real sun. Hard, since I don't really have anywhere to expose my whole body to the sun on a daily basis. I wish I had a sunny spot outside my house! Unfortunately we have two giant maple trees that completely cover the entire outside of our place. And live on a busy city street. And don't have a backyard. And have two bitchy old nosy cows for neighbours. So, yeah.
Maaaaaaartin: This is lynnhopes; another former member of the ZC place. I always thought your issues were adrenal/thyroid, so I am so glad you are doing better and eating a pro thyroid/adrenal diet. I also think candida is a symptom more than anything else.
This post made me think about those "got milk?" or "body by milk" ads… and how I used to think it was just a bunch of propaganda from the dairy farmers because they wanted Americans to continue eating unhealthy Neolithic foods.
Haaaa, I'm eating my words now.
I even was at a point that I convinced myself I was severely lactose intolerant (and a celiac). Needless to say, no one ever wanted to talk about food around me (let alone get a bite to eat); although I'm sure I'm not the only one.
I hate how militant and dogmatic I became while being "paleo". Did anyone else feel ultra-righteous as well?
"We were interested in Matt’s recommendations but it seemed too crazy. Especially because of Bruce and his insane posts !!"
I wasn't really insane. I knew the things I was experiencing were not real, but they seemed real to me @ first. I was extremely manic. And I don't think the HED had anything to do with it, because I've eaten the same foods and they don't make me feel the same manic energy now. Matt suspected sugar and coffee to be the cause, but I really wasn't eating that much refined sugar or coffee. I had them once or twice a week on my cheat days. The rest of the time, I ate unbleached bagels, unheated honey, NFC orange juice, organic white rice, potatoes, and milk for carbs.
I still believe in the HED and for some people Matt's version will be better, focusing on starches. I am mainly using sugars like fruit and honey and milk, because they are a more convenient and palatable food to me than starches. I don't like to cook. I have been eating mainly raw meat lately, I think Aajonus has a lot of good ideas. I blame doctors for messing up my brain. I went from feeling awesome to lousy (like I was in hell) as soon as I took medication (lithium/zyprexa) in the hospital. I'm trying to get off the drugs I'm taking (Geodon). I've cut the dose in half, and I'm confident that I can cut more off in time. I would give anything to go back to how I felt a year ago, before I accepted medical advice. Aajonus is right about doctors, in my experience. All they do is make things worse. Diet is the answer, not doctors and drugs.
Katerina…do you mean you were you able to overcome your "celiac disease", or do you mean that you never really had any issues with gluten? If so, would you mind sharing how you accomplished this?
I've tried going lower in protein, but I never could consistenly maintain it. You pretty much have to cut out most animal-source protein if you want to pull it off eating a decent amount of calories.
Atta boy. Funny how Vonderplanitz keeps coming up. Guess I should take it easy on the guy. He is the only other proponent of overfeeding out there besides myself.
Fruit may be better tolerated when a person is not eating a hypocaloric diet, or staying on the low side with PUFA. I've been doing much better with fruit no doubt. A high metabolism to rip through all the free fatty acids from lots of fruit consumption would help many people too no doubt.
@ Ian/Bruce: It is pretty clear that nutrition cannot cause manic episodes, especially that recommended by HED. Coffee and Sugar even would only be able to cause or trigger mental illness in those susceptible with a genetic disposition……
@ Matt: I have just read Henry Bieler "food is your best medicine" great book and have noticed I am a typical thyroid type, to your knowledge can we actually alter our type and disposition or is one always stuck in more a less the same category regardless of their diet/lifestyle.
The reason I ask is that Bieler never mentions the ability to take on an adrenal type's metabolism unless you are born that way. Sorry guys for straying off topic….
I had become a little fruitphobic along with my carbophobia during my more extreme primal days but now i can eat fruit several times a week no problems, though i have never been a daily fruit eater, always preferred more veggies. I am on day 4 of my mostly milk diet (ie i am eating around 1 normal meal per week due to social situations). so far no diarrhoea, a little bit of constipation, no digestive or other problems, but my temperature was down 0.2 C this morning. I am really enjoying sipping milk throughout the day.
Ian good luck with getting off the meds.
Jenny, i think we need some cow/milk tshirts :)
Chris and Ian,
I think it is probable that foods can bring on mental illness. Read the works of HL Newbold who was a pretty famous psychiatrist who wrote a lot of books on nutrition. He found repeatedly that many mental illness were brought on with certain types of food.
Way to go Martin! Could someone please explain the milk diet? I thought from Matt's post that it had to be raw milk–am I mistaken? I simply adore dairy products and tolerate them very well. I recently gave up all the low fat milk and yogurt for whole fat milk. And enjoy sipping on cream for a quick snack.
Great to hear about the improvements to your health Martin. Given Martin's comments about his experience measuring his temperature does anyone have anything to share about when they are measuring their temperature. I also find that to get my highest possible reading in the morning I need to have the thermometer under my arm for at least 4-6 minutes. I thought I might have an old thermometer, but maybe there's more to it than that. For the sake of efficiency I would rather just use the temp given when the beeping noise goes off, but I don't think this is accurate.
I would appreciate hearing what others have to say about it.
raw milk is the ideal certainly for the milk diet, or as near to that as possible ;)
I have this same thermometer issue. It takes up to 10 minutes. The temps keep going up if I take it multiple times. But I figure the highest one must be right, because how could I make it go higher than my actual body temperature?
My highest temp is also always first thing in the morning.
98.4 bitches! That is what the thermometer read today. Highest. temp. ever.
So this is what's like to have almost normal temps. I'm going camping this week-end. Looking forward to not waking up freezing in the middle of the night like I normally do.
Turbogirl, welcome! Raw milk is ideal, but I've been replacing a couple meals a day with the best quality pasteurized I can find (non homogenized, lightly pasteurized from grass fed cows). I also drink about 8 ounces of kombucha a day which gives me an enzyme boost. That's it. So far temps have responded really well.
Protein…well, lets see, I ate meat and or eggs at breakfast lunch and dinner. If I had a snack during the day it was usually meat based (summer sausage and cheese on crackers). I didn't keep track of exact amounts. I think I was eating about the same protein as before I started HED (I was on a high protein, low fat, low-moderate carb diet). The difference is the saturated fat. My protein came from chicken and tuna before (seriously I'd rather weigh what I do now forever than go back to living on that lean protein shit.)
Jedi, I'd be up for t-shirts. You think of an idea.
It's tragic that so many millions of acres of fertile farmland go into producing rubbish milk. It's not really the farmer's fault. They are at the mercy of corporate farming and the food processing industry. For the most part the milk campaigns have been dairy industry propaganda. To throw out milk altogether because it's a neolithic food is a bit of an over-reaction.
Annabelle: I've been wearing a tank top and shorts out biking or to the playground with my kid. I get the sun exposure and no one judges you. Gotta think there's a sunny patch somewhere in your hood where you can get away with wearing that.
Yes, I wrote about checking basal temperature and basically concluded that the more time you give it, the higher and more accurate your temp. reading is likely to be.
Taking people to the adrenal type is more of an aspiration than anything else. I think it's pretty clear that the people discovered by Price, Burkitt, Cleave, etc. were predominantly adrenal types with amazing and resislient health. Broda Barnes seemed to be able, through giving thyroid extract and monitoring basal body temperature, to also make people more like adrenal types and have the same kind of good health and resilience.
I guess you could say 180 is more about taking steps back to the optimal human metabolic state, which I think is described by Bieler in great and accurate detail.
Since you are following Broda Barnes with the temperature as the best gauge to health, why don't you follow his whole program that he found to be optimal? Diet was moderate carb with high protein and fat, and the dessicated thyroid was essential. See if this could turn you into the ideal adrenal type. I think this would be a much more interesting diet experiment than the milk diet. The milk diet is only temporary and will not be maintained over the long term. Broda's program could be maintained.
Brain H- I'm just saying that I never was a celiac. I'm not even gluten intolerant. When I got my Adrenal Stress Index results back, the "Gliadin Ab, SIgA" (Gliadins are polypeptides found in grain glutens that are toxic to the intestinal mucosa in susceptible individuals) result was negative.
I'm sure that with HED you'll make improvement, no doubt.
JT has a point Matt. Have you ever had a FULL thyroid panel done? Not just a useless TSH.
JT: "Chris and Ian,
I think it is probable that foods can bring on mental illness. Read the works of HL Newbold who was a pretty famous psychiatrist who wrote a lot of books on nutrition. He found repeatedly that many mental illness were brought on with certain types of food."
Sleep deprivation was probably the main cause. I had so much energy I felt like I didn't need sleep. But I did experience some weird things that might not have been a result of hallucinations. My computer had a mind of its own: I couldn't send e-mail, but I could post to Matt's blog. I could do things with no memory of having done them, like I had multiple personalities almost. I could walk and move much faster than I normally do. I moved like a force of nature.
I feel that eating SAD is probably a big cause of mental illness, i.e lots of refined sugar, HFCS, trans fats, PUFAs, and bleached enriched grains. I wasn't eating *any* HFCS or trans fats or PUFA oils and was only eating small amounts of sugar like ice cream one or two days per week. I have read that fasting and sleep deprivation can make you get manic very easily.
Jt: Why would I wanna take dessicated thyroid when I could just drink milk and have the same effects? Are you saying temp gains made on the milk diet are only temporary?
Personally I could go on replacing a meal a day with milk as long as my digestion is happy with it. It's super convenient.
Matt's always been about cherrypicking from various sources.
Broda Barnes had to use desiccated thyroid, and assumed everything was genetic and unchangeable. I'm challenging that assertion with diet and lifestyle strategies. I think that's more interesting. Plus, for all we know his dietary recommendations could have been making his patients dependent on desiccated thyroid for all we know.
No milk diet authors said that the changes experienced on the milk diet were impermanent. They all talk about, for example, hypertension equalizing and never coming back – saying that they did not see a single person with hypertension not be able to control it with the milk diet, and then state that they never saw hypertension return in any of those patients. That's the whole point of doing the diet.
I haven't had any panels or tests done on me for anything, much less thyroid.
Jedi: "Ian good luck with getting off the meds."
Thanks. It's hard because I cannot sleep if I stop taking them. And I start thinking crazy thoughts, but at least I've cut my dose in half. I slept most of last night, even though I took my medicine early in the morning. Hopefully I will get over my dependence on them. I will eat all-raw if I have to. Aajonus mentions healing a female singer with severe manic depression and schizophrenia by gradually weaning her off the toxic drugs. She had been unable to work for 9 years, and wrote 500 songs. I know drugs are toxic, but it's hard to quit anti-psychotic drugs cold turkey. I would be in bed all day feeling suicidal thoughts and/or paranoid delusions. I should have listened to AV and refused the drugs which they gave me at the hospital. I'd probably be much healthier now.
Matt: "Taking people to the adrenal type is more of an aspiration than anything else…
I guess you could say 180 is more about taking steps back to the optimal human metabolic state, which I think is described by Bieler in great and accurate detail."
I know it's possible to attain the adrenal type level of health, as I had every quality that you listed, from Bieler's book. I could eat 10 to 12 different foods in one meal and have effortless digestion and stable energy. I think low protein was part of the reason. I ate high fat and high carb, but the protein was only like 1g/kg. I ate foods like half-and-half, unbleached and unenriched bagels, unheated honey, orange juice, grape juice, organic white rice, meat, eggs, etc.
Hi everyone, it’s martin. I don’t actually know how to log in (lol shame on me)
I’ll answer your questions in order:
I usually eat potatoes, rice, vegetables (broccoli, carrots, cabbage, aubergine, courgettes, etc.) with coconut oil, butter, olive oil, macadamia oil. I don’t always eat the same type of fat or the same amount. It varies from 30 to 60per cent fat. I eat more than 3000cal a day and I’m hungry a lot lol. It’s hard for my mind to accept it because I have never experienced that before so I don’t always eat as much as I crave. But I try to.
At the moment, I might try a low PUFA (only coconut oil and some eggs) diet. I’ll limit to potatoes. A naturopath told me I’m suffering from mercury poisoning and that I should avoid all possible sources of mercury including commercial grains and rice. I don’t know if I’ll manage, probably not but I’ll try.
Too much fruit (as in more than one or two kiwis a day) makes me hyperactive and close to panick attack. I remember when I was a fruitarian (yep I was a fruitarian for two weeks, I don’t know if I mentioned it lol) I used to feel horrible. Like I had too much energy but in a bad way. I felt close to having a panic attack 90% of the time! I was also extremely suicidal and did weird things (like suddenly leaving my grilfriend’s house, walking in the fields, not caring about puddles or whatever and crying, all this for absolutely no reason.). Fruit doesn’t help me at all. It might be natural but so is dust but I don’t eat it (I know this is a rubbish argument, I’m kidding)
How much protein I eat makes no difference in how much muscle I have. I eat around 100g a day. Doubling that amount makes me dehydrated and unwell but doesn’t seem to maje me more muscular at all.
I’m about the same as on the picture now. I wasn’t contracting any muscles at all on the picture. If I did, you would see a good ab definition. It’s the same now, if I’m half-naked you can sort of see my abs. If I contract them, you see them well and you see my ribs (or muscles?). But since writing this article, I have actually put on 1kg of fat. I tried switching coconut oil for olive oil. That wasn’t a smart move, for the same level of activity and satisfaction from food, I put on 1kg in a week more or less !! That’s a lot :-S!!
Hey!! How are you?? My email address is: email@example.com if you wanna have some news from me !! (I may not come back to the comment section)
Well, this might be part of the problem or the whiole problem, I don’t know !! I’m focusing on mercury and other heavy metals poisoning but I ain’t sure. As my dear Chris used to say when we were still ZC members: I dunno man! lol
I’ve always had the opposite of feeling righteous about my eating habits. I’ve always felt ashamed of being so crazy and hid it to as many people possible. I made some really good friends last semester and it took them 5months to realise I was eating only meat (they found out when I told them once I had stopped). I always told people I was doing this because I felt like shit and that if they felt great eating everything, they should go on !! (except refined sugar lol)
I hope I didn’t offend you or anything. But it’s the truth. I thought Matt’s idea were interesting but you made it sound like a religion ! But I eventually tried anyway lol.
Fasting made me a bit crazy. I was crying for no reason. But I also didn’t mention it: I fasted in an unknown place (Buddhist monastery) where you had to work all morning and wake up a 4am lol. I’m really crazy :-D. It was exhausting and I wasn’t eating. Even tried not drinking for a whole day. CRAAAZYYY
By the way, I don't normal take pictures of myself half naked. A friend of mine thought I look very muscular and toned so he insisted on taking pictures of myself. But I don't like to show off so I didn't contract my muscles or anything.
I also didn't know Matt would post it here. I only sent him the milk picture and the fasted vegan physique.
I would like to add that on the vegan picture, I had been eating normally for 15 days but I had lost another kg ! Why is that, you might say, lol? well, I was following those crazy hyginiests ideas that one shouldn't overeat so I was surviving on a couple of nust and raw vegetables (you know, cooking is so detrimental lol). I was feeling horrible, constipated and crazy.
Then I gave up and binged on everything and anything, especially cooked meat and starches, biscuits and other sweets and I went running everyday. I put on 8kg in 7 days !! I kid you not :-D. Then in 2 weeks, I put on 5kg. Then in one month another 6kg (of muscle, I started weight lifting). You may say that it's impossible to put on that much muscle in such a short period of time but I never looked fatter. Always like on the picture: that is thin and muscular but not 5% body fat either. Just thin).
Martin – Thanks! I did enjoy your story. Really close to my own, actually.
Matt – "Stick your fingers in your ears! One of my favorite sayings!" Ah, yes. Your saying about emaciated nutritional experts revolutionized my life. No exaggeration.
Katerina – "Did anyone else feel ultra-righteous as well?" More so with veganism. Heh, heh. With low-carb I felt strangely free. I mean, I'd found the fountain of youth. I was one of the lucky few. So, yeah, I told some people how amazing I felt, but I never got all "carbage is evil" or anything. Haha.
JT – Thanks for the info on HL Newbold. Will check out his books.
Jenny thenipper – Congratulations! Freeze no more.
Ian – "I have read that fasting and sleep deprivation can make you get manic very easily." Makes sense. I got a bit hyper and irrational when I was eating too little on LC, and staying up all night.
Got a link for you: http://www.truehope.com/ Ever heard of this? I tried it for a good year. Wasn't my final answer (for non-manic depression and anxiety), but it kept me off meds. (My parents aren't sure this was a good thing…) It's worked magic for some people, though, especially those with bipolar. Their support line and forum are great. Medications are reduced slowly, under supervision.
Anyway, I can relate to your struggle. When I was about 2.5 months into RRARF some of my crazy brain stuff came back, and I was devastated. After a month of increasing weirdness, I finally figured out my 5HTP and melatonin were backfiring bigtime. As soon as I quit them, the crazy stuff stopped. Pretty exciting.
I guess the moral is: listen to your body, which is a bit harder to do when you're feeling mental, eh? Sounds like your better at it than I am. I also wish you all the luck in the world. You're gonna get there.
Bruce, welcome back Dude!
Try Brewer's Yeast…when my wife is taking it, it's like she's on Prozac, LOL!
It may or may not work, depending on your root cause, but it's cheap, so it would be worth a shot.
About the mercury poisoning:
Some things that are supposed to help chelating mercury are
1) coconut oil
2) Iodine supplementation
3) Chlorella combined with cilantro (the leaves)
Actually, I'm not 100% sure on coconut oil, but I think the other two are quite well known for detoxing heavy metals.
Dunno if that helps, just wanted to share my kowledge, you can google that up if you are interested to find out more about that.
"Stick your fingers in your ears! One of my favorite sayings!" That does not go along with your actual philosphy, now, does it? That's precisely what a vegan would say about us…
BTW, is that the very same Martin from ZC? I guess reading Leblanc's (and Washington's, and the pemmican guy's) posts was also a huge influence for your coming here. He's a total a-hole.
Oh, and Ian C, or Bruce, be very careful with weaning off of those drugs. VERY. If you accept my humble advise (which does not come from personal experience), I would reccomend you at least try to stay with one atypical antipsychotic. I'm thinking glycine, for instance. There are trials showing it can work. Like 0.8 grams per kilogram a day, without side effects. I also think the lithium may be what's hitting you harder, and it can be terrible for the thyroid, but, even knowing that, you MUST be very careful. It's no game. Diet is important, but schizophrenia, or bipolar, is not an easy thing to deal with, and diet very often just isn't enough.
BTW, is your metabolism really as ok as you think? Have you done temperatur charts? Even then, thyroid (especially t3 alone) might help, or at least that what Peat would say.
Anyway, just wanted to stick my finger a little since I've investigated a lot about these things. Advise can be dangerous, especially if you don't do your best to confirm the info…
Here's some data:
http://archpsyc.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/29/5/602 (t3 on psychosis)
And if I by chance, sound condescending, then fuck you. I'm offended.
The "stick your fingers in your ears" mantra used to occupy the right sidebar and applied to emaciated people. It was part of my "it's okay to eat when you're hungry" propaganda.
Glad it revolutionized your life Puddleduckie.
Sorry about snatching that pic off of your Facebook page. In your original submission you had told people to go to your facebook page to see pictures. I thought it was public enough to lay out there. I think it adds a lot to the post. I'd take it down in a heartbeat if you wanted me to.
I can vouch for the iodine supplementation as detoxifying. I staring taking Iodoral a few months ago, and in the first few days I had some strange pains and feelings, which is supposedly the effects of a heavy metal detox. Since then I've felt a hell of a lot better than ever before. I've been able to fast and reduce calories to lose weight without a drop in temp or any fatigue. It's like my body is finally able to easily let go of its fat, so I can eat less without suffering the usual metabolic consequences.
Since this has worked so well, I'm trying the Leangains method. So far it's going like Martin has talked about.
Jenny and Matt,
I think that the temp gains on the milk diet are only temporary. As soon as you stop the temps will probably go down. For most people getting dessicated thyroid is easier than getting raw milk. Matt had to move from Hawaii to Colorado to get a good supply of milk. If he had followed Barnes' advice he could have just gone to a local anti aging doc and got a script, and it would have been MUCH cheaper than the milk. Or, maybe the milk with the thyroid like Peat recommends is the optimal combo. I personally cannot tolerate much milk and my physique looks better when I don't drink too much milk. I would only drink lots of milk if I was trying to gain weight.
You really ought to give Broda a fair chance since he is the one that did all of the research and worked with thousands of patients and treated them successfully. If a high carb low protein diet with no thyroid and lots of calories worked best I am sure he would of used it. Remember in his time that high calories were advised.
If I was you I would definitely check out HL Newbold's work before going back to AV's raw foodism. His diet made me sick and weak. Newbold cured a lot of mental illness by adjusting diet. His books are some of the most interesting nutrition books I have read. He thinks some of the biggest offenders are wheat and milk.
@Katerina: Thanks for the clarification. I'm curious because I often suspect gluten issues for myself but the symptoms are unpredictable and hard for me to blame on gluten specifically
@JT: You are often critical of Matt's diet, I'm curious what your own approach is?
Jt, oh, milk and wheat can totally be huge offenders, I agree on that.
"it's okay to eat when you're hungry" LOL.
I'm not critical of all of Matt's diets. We agree on a lot of things, but our biggest disagreement is that I believe that everyone should adjust their diet to their individual needs. I am not so interested in the milk diet, or zero carb, raw, paleo, etc… I have tried all of them and they all affected me negatively even though the diet gurus promised it would work. I have detailed my diet and dietary advice in many past comments. Basically I follow a typical bodybuilding high carb, high protein, low fat/pufa diet. Because of Ray Peat I have also incorporated a lot sugar as well.
Another disagreement we have is the whole idea of curing fat people by having them eat more calories. Most peopl will have extreme hunger when losing bodyfat, but most are not willing to go through it.
Another difference with our approach is that I am a big proponent of exercise. I maintain a high volume high intensity bodybuilding program, and I do bikram yoga which is very intense as well. The exercise has done as much to improve my health as diet.
"If I was you I would definitely check out HL Newbold's work before going back to AV's raw foodism. His diet made me sick and weak. Newbold cured a lot of mental illness by adjusting diet. His books are some of the most interesting nutrition books I have read. He thinks some of the biggest offenders are wheat and milk."
I don't eat much wheat, because it gives me gas and messy BMs. When I eat unbleached unenriched wheat it doesn't cause as many problems. I think AV's diet is much healthier than the low-fat and high-protein body-builder diet. AV's diet does not work unless you eat enough raw meat and fat tho. You often do get sick in the short-term, but that may be detox. You should judge by long-term results. You have to be patient with his diet to get good results. It may take months before you start to feel better. You may be tired or sleepy or week in the short term and he points that out.
As for milk, the only problem I've noticed is that it makes me sleepy sometimes. Raw milk also has this effect. I feel better eating cream cheese or brie with unheated honey.
For all we know, AV might be right about the need for raw fats in our toxic world. I don't believe in low fat diets. When I ate low-fat, my body didn't heal properly and I still have old injuries because of doing hard exercise on a low-fat diet. When I ate the Primal Diet I did vigorous exercise and healed a lot faster and got stronger. I would rather eat HED and have a physique like Matt or Aajonus than eat low-fat and perhaps have toxic damage from pollution. We need to have a reasonable amount of fat. I have never seen evidence that low body fat is good in today's world. On the contrary, people with low body fat are more vulnerable to a variety of chronic diseases.
EL 66K: "Oh, and Ian C, or Bruce, be very careful with weaning off of those drugs. VERY. If you accept my humble advise (which does not come from personal experience), I would reccomend you at least try to stay with one atypical antipsychotic."
It's a battle with my mind to wean myself off the drugs, but I blame the drugs for messing up my brain and metabolism. I felt excellent before I took the lithium and the zyprexa. I was manic, but I could control the mania and function a lot better than being depressed & suicidal. If I could go back and do things again, I wouldn't have taken the drugs they offered me in the hospital. I needed sleep, not drugs. Drugs are addictive, IMO.
"I'm thinking glycine, for instance. There are trials showing it can work. Like 0.8 grams per kilogram a day, without side effects. I also think the lithium may be what's hitting you harder, and it can be terrible for the thyroid, but, even knowing that, you MUST be very careful. It's no game. Diet is important, but schizophrenia, or bipolar, is not an easy thing to deal with, and diet very often just isn't enough."
Supplements are most often toxic, IMO. I would look for food sources of glycine if anything. Diet isn't enough if you are not willing to question everything you've learned about diet and health. I got off the lithium and zyprexa almost as soon as I left the hospital the first time because the zyprexa was too expensive (like $1,300/month). "The poor are lucky, because they can't afford doctors."
"BTW, is your metabolism really as ok as you think? Have you done temperatur charts? Even then, thyroid (especially t3 alone) might help, or at least that what Peat would say."
I never said that my metabolism is OK. On the contrary, I am sure the lithium and zyprexa both messed up my brain and metabolism. I wish I could go back in time and not take them. I think I would have been a lot better off without them. I was incredibly strong before I took the drugs. Half a dozen people in the hospital tried to hold me down and I moved them effortlessly like a machine or something. I thought the drugs would have no effect on me because my brain and body were so strong. I was wrong.
Interesting, very interesting.
How much did you take? I still got some Lugol's that I wanna use, but didn't really get to it yet.
Also please keep us (or me) updated, as I always toyed with the idea of IF and lean gains seems like a decent method to me.
I took lugols for 4 months with no obvious effect at all, guess it depends on the person, or it may not be long enough.
About mercury detoxing:
I had mercury fillings removed by a good dentist, and he recommended an epsom salt bath every night for 90 days with 3lbs of epsom salt and water as hot as i could handle it.
And it seemed to help- by the third month, I was feeling more spry and energetic, and didn't feel too tired at night to ever hang out with friends. I also sometimes would have to almost drag myself from the bathroom to the bed, being so wiped out afterward. More than once i fell asleep face down on top of my covers with my damp towel still round my waist. It actually felt awesome to sleep so soundly and deeply.
Recently I've had a similar, though less pronounced reaction to just a hot bath. My doc told me the skin is one o our largest excretory organs and just warming ti and opening our pores allows a lot to be expelled.
@JT: I'm not sure why hunger would be a necessary prerequisite for fat loss. In particular carbohydrate restriction seems to be a way that people lose weight while feeling satisfied, whether or not this is the best way to do so.
I also think that increasing caloric intake can be important for people who have been chronically dieting. If somebody has gotten to the point where they are eating less than 1000 calories a day, then it's without question they need to eat more and will most likely gain some initial weight in the process. I don't think overfeeding is necessary, but eating enough is an important part of being healthy.
there is no reason to believe anything that AV says. I definitely don't believe in the detox stuff that most of these diet gurus claim is causing all the negative effects that people have on their diets. If you feel better on a high fat diet then you should dot it. I think the schwarzbein diet is the best starting or default diet fir most people.
you are right, low carb diets completely eliminate hunger, libido, and many other natural human functions. It is unhealthy for most. If you want to lose body fat on a healthy diet that doesn't slow down you metabolism then you are going to be really hungry.
How many really fat people do you know who only eat 1000 calories a day? The only people I know who do that are fitness competitors who have to get extremely lean for competitions and anorexics. So if you fall into this category then I agree that refeeding could be important.
That is interesting about using the heat to detoxify. As mentioned above I do Bikram, which is yoga in a very hot room. They say the heat is very important in part because it helps the body detoxify throught the skin. It is so hot and I sweat so much that I will drop 5 pounds of water weight in one 90 minute session.
@ JT: Interesting you do Bikram Yoga. I have done it in the past and found it very relaxing and effective, yet it is very strenuous. Have been thinking about starting to do it again for ages now…. How often do you go?
Also do you have any concern about the amount of sweat and loss of electrolytes/minerals that the sweating may cause?
i started lugol's 2% about two months ago and actually had a notable response. i am not a supporter of supplements so one has to give me a more tangible result.
i started w two drops daily then increased to three. after about 5 days i started feeling a bit jittery so went back to two.
it took about 2 weeks to feel the result in my digestion….less belching, acid reflux and my food actually left my stomach instead of sitting like a brick forever (i could wake up in the morning w dinner still there previously. gastroparesis, yes).
now i take 2 drops every other day and that seems to keep my symptoms in check.
if i need to i'll do a few days in a row.
but 2% is a weak dose so i am impressed w the results and i stand by my recommendation to always start w the lowest dose…of anything.
Good to hear the positive mentions of Lugol's and iodoral. Until now I've heard from nearly everyone who has taken it that it didn't do a damn thing.
That's what I'm talin' bout. I hope to explore some new ideas promoted by fitness-based bloggers and authors over the summer as well.
I'm very open about Barnes. Open enough to put the kind of focus that I do on the basal body temperature. But from what I've heard, desiccated thyroid doesn't always work very well. No one's results thus far suggest that the milk diet gains are impermanent either.
As for telling obese people to eat more, I'm not focused on weight. Weight is irrelevant in comparison to body temperature. When an obese person tells me that they wake up to a temp. of 95.6, I tell them to eat more. That must be restored before they can lose weight. ALL obese people have gone through countless episodes of losing weight and feeling hungry.
But they of course don't actually eat more in most cases, because they are eating real food. One woman has reported once being unsatisfied on 5,000 calories per day, and now feels stuffed eating 2,000 calories per day following my advice. But eating less/exercising more does not work to cure obesity. That is well-known. Any arguments against that show extreme ignorance about the whole picture.
I have had amazing faux health improvements from exercise. I've exercised ten times the amount of most people here. Every time I thought it was doing great things for me I discovered otherwise later when I finally decided to take a break – only to discover I was worse than before I tried to exercise.
For example, when I exercise I have no back pain, no asthma, no allergies, clearer skin – all my old health problems would completely vanish.
I have nothing against it as a long-term healthy practice to be incorporated into an otherwise healthy lifestyle, but you can break yourself while feeling great every step of the way, and become extremely dependent on getting massive amounts of exercise just to maintain those gains.
Same goes for diet. My first 4 months on a low-moderate carb diet were perhaps the best 4 months I've ever had.
Barnes treated thousands of people successfully with dessicated thyroid and it worked extremely well for them. No ones results so far suggest that the milk diet results are permanent, but who knows maybe it will be, I doubt it unless it becomes incorporated into a daily part of life over the long term. I ave already mentioned that I no longer have much faith in short term diet fixes and fads promoted by gurus. I am interested things people can maintain as a lifestyle.
Again we are back to the same point I have mentioned before. If you are having the person eat 2000 calories instead of 5000, then you are having them lose weight by eating less. If they are not hungry then it is because they are stuffed from eating the unprocessed foods. This is why almost every dietitian prescribes whole high fiber foods to their clients. Like i have said before, this is the best idea for most people, just eating real natural foods and doing some sort of moderate physical activity that builds up instead of tearing down.
Your problems with exercise were because you did it wrong. Way too much endurance cardio type of stuff tearing the body down and not building it up.
I am pretty sure from all of the biofeedback you report that your issues are due to poor adrenal function. The reason you feel better when you exercise and eat lower carb in the beginning is because it raises your cortisol and adrenaline levels. This also explains why you start to feel worse when you take it too far, your adrenal function is weak.
My guess is that if you would have stuck with the type of exercise that Schwarzbein recommends and increased you carbs a little you probably would have found the long term sustainable diet that would best fit your needs. This is what would probably work for the majority as well.
JT, maybe 1000 isn't the norm, but I think a lot of overweight people cycle through low/high calorie eating. In an attempt to lose weight, they starve themselves, and then rebound binge. It's so often that I see somebody overweight eating such a ridiculously small lunch, maybe a tiny salad, that they must be overcompensating at other times, or just have a really disturbed metabolism. In this sense, the idea to "eat more" can be beneficial in that it prevents any binging that comes after periods of undereating.
Maybe low-carb reduces libido, but so does low calorie. I have under eaten and been underweight for years now, with lots of periods of excessive sugar consumption. I can assure you that not enough food has a drastic effect on libido too, whether or not you are eating lots of carbs. If I were trying to lose weight, I would certainly prefer an unrestricted low-carb diet over a diet so low in calories that I were always hungry.
Well put. Obese people aren't obese because they haven't tried eating less and exercising more yet.
Agree that the adrenals are central to my core issues and natural weakness. Thought that for years.
Things that stimulate adrenal activity medicate my problems, but make the core problem worse. Things that aggravate my problems, make my core problem better. That's what I'm trying to get at and strategize about appropriately.
Barnes was an excellent doctor, and I don't discredit his success. Rather, I hope to find out how to achieve what he did by healing the core problems instead of medicating them and propping them up artificially with hormones that can disrupt other systems.
If diet got humanity in this mess, I believe diet is the primary way to get out of it – even if there are miracle drugs that can offset some of the problems or mask symptoms effectively.
I'm exploring that avenue, because few others are (okay none) in the manner that I am approaching it.
And I'm not interested in what can be maintained as a lifestyle per se. Honestly, I'm more interested in what we can do during a focused healing phase that allows us to be free and stop having to live in diet and unwanted exercise prison. What has been written about the milk diet are the most promising things I've come across due to the permanence of the healing. It is very clear that many people were able to overcome adrenal weakness in 30 days of the milk diet, and be healed up thereafter – with or without milk in their diets following. With or without a lot of calories. With or without a lot of exercise.
I have noticed that I do not see much about Chicken or Turkey on the blog…is it not recommended in the HED?
I never said too low of calories is a good thing. Too much and to little are both bad, you need to get it just right. This goes for diet and exercise. This is the hardest part too, it is hard to get it right if you aren't experienced and that is why most people would rather waste their time on gimmicks, fad diets, and supplements. You are right about the feeding habits of a lot of fat people. The norm is little to no breakfast, sparse lunch, and then binge at night. This is why I don't like IF for most.
The low calorie consumption is the reason that low carb reduces libido in my opinion. The low carb diet suppresses appetite so much that it is hard for people to get enough calories. The leaner you are the more damaging it will be. It is more mentally difficult to deal with the hunger on a higher carb diet, the lower carb definitely makes it mentally easier because the hunger is not extreme, but it is more damaging to your health in the long term.
It is all about lifestyle. Anything that does not address this is doomed to failure, because people will just fall back into the old habits that got them into the mess in the first place.
I am not telling people to eat less and exercise more. I tell them to eat healthy and exercise in a healthy matter and don't worry about body fat. The body will adjust to its right ratio. But, I have never met an obese person that exercises too much and eats too little, including my family members.
"If diet got humanity in this mess, I believe diet is the primary way to get out of it"
Why do you think it is all due to diet? We live in a different world of vaccines, radiation, flouridation, EMF, pollution and high stress jobs. There is a lot more going on than just dietary changes, but I do agree that this plays a big part.
I was in the same boat as you with even more severe adrenal issues, and I fixed it by following a Schwarzbein type of approach with healthy exercise. I would like to see you get better as well and that is why I bring it up.
No I don't worry about the water loss and electrolytes/minerals, and I have never heard anyone that has had problems either. Just make sure you eat a healthy diet to compensate.I have mentioned before that I make a big drink with lots of unrefined sugar with sea salt and peptopro, so I am covered.
I have done what you recommend JT. It caused me health problems because carbs were too low. Eating more carbs helped me overcome those problems. I believe I'm well on my way to overcoming the rest of my problems in due course.
We are in a different world, but the "saccharine disease," which includes heart disease, obesity, diabetes, many cancers, digestive problems, tooth decay, myopia, allergies, asthma, etc. didn't require anything but changing from unrefined to refined carbohdyrates to achieve. That is the root of the problem – the rest are aggravating factors, and why I don't give them too much headspace.
Saying that people can consciously choose to eat less and exercise more and alter their weight long-term once again shows complete ignorance of the complexity of the science. Top obesity researchers have all concluded that consious efforts to change the calorie-in calorie-out balance are futile.
I too have gained lots of fat just by eating 2,500 calories per day and doing an hour of exercise. Lost 5 in 3 weeks, gained 10 back in 2 weeks when my hunger went wild.
I've also been under 5% body fat using that approach to no avail, eating 2,600 calories per day.
And I happen to think that a large calorie deficit may be preferable to a small one if there is a way to lose weight and take the set point down with you. There's nothing to suggest that a small deficit is superior for getting weight down or keeping the weight off afterward.
You did not do what I recommend. I said you should have increased your carbs a little to the level you needed to feel right, especially as activity levels go up. From the feedback you reported this would have been the logical thing to do and probably would have worked. Instead of doing this you have been hopping around from one miracle diet to the next. This is the negative diet mentality that is so prevalent nowadays and causing so many problems.
We have no proof that diet is the root of the problem, but it probably is one of the only things we have much control over. So, I guess it is better to focus on things we can do something about.
You are misrepresenting what I am saying. I never said to eat less and exercise more. I said to eat healthy food and do some type of exercise. I know this is not easy for people who struggle with their weight. The science shows that the only people who are successful are those who become obsessed with diet and eating right, and the ones who aren't fail.
How many people do you know that have been successful doing something other than what I advise? I know many who have been successful with approach I support. Actually the only people I know who have been successful over the long term are the one who changed their lifestyle and started eating healthy and exercising. Many people will also need some type hormone therapy to be successful. This is the future of obesity treatment.
I agree that a larger calorie deficit may be preferable, but a relative calorie deficit that is caused by activity levels going up is better so that people can eat more.
Your negative experiences with diet and exercise are because you did not do it correctly. That is just yo-yo dieting that doesn't do anyone any good. I recommend getting a knowledgeable and experienced coach that can take you through the process.
You crack me up JT. Thanks for all your help. I've been on the same diet for 1 year solid (with a revision at the beginning of 2010 to keep PUFA low). It took away my indigestion, foul body odor, emotionality, irritibility, skin breakouts, problems sleeping, dark circles under eyes, bad breath, and more. It's been awesome. It has been a miracle diet. Now I'm doing the liquid version of the same diet for curiosity's sake, and because it is the only thing I've ever come across that said it could heal my final lingering health problem, pet allergies, in 30 days in which you could then eat whatever you want.
I am a healthy weight, and have been at a healthy weight since I hit puberty. Only going into prolonged calorie deficit can make me fatter. Otherwise my body regulates it well. I don't need some fucking dipshit coach to teach me how to do it. No one does. Body weight regulation is unconscious. I don't need breathing instruction or digestive instruction or heartbeat instruction either.
This blog is filled with people that were obsessed with their health too. That wasn't the answer for them. They are looking to become less obsessed, and find that some of the ideas floating around here have helped them to do it.
And I've read dozens of books that provide the most convincing evidence one could possibly ever obtain pointing to the fact that the refined carbohydrate, and to a lesser extent seed oils, are the primary drivers of hyperinsulinemia, which is the primary driver of the majority of modern disease. I too thought, when I began this journey, that food chemicals and agricultural residues, and other things were at the root of people's problems. I've been led to believe otherwise, regardless of how harmful those things may be.
Bravo, Matt. I've no idea how you keep your cool sometimes. Maybe by laughing? I esp. like the part about the dipshit coach.
I think you are a great writer and you have the potential to help a lot of people. This is why I have been commenting on your issues.
Sorry if I offended you with the coaching comment, it was not my intention. Even most of the top physique competitors out there still have advisers who are more experienced than they are. No, I don't think need most people need much coaching if they just want to learn to eat healthy and be normal. I just think it could be useful if someone wanted to take the exercise and physiques development to the next level, because most people do it wrong by just doing tons of cardio and eating less till they burnout.
I agree with you that food/diet obsession is completely unhealthy. It is just as bad or worse than the opposite which most people are, not caring at all. I am now less food/diet obsessed than ever before. I don't even think about my diet/exercise anymore because I found what works for me and just made it a part of my lifestyle. I don't let it rule my social life either.
I also agree with you PUFA being the biggest problem. Peat thinks this is the biggest problem as well, but thinks there are other environmental factors at play.
Again, I would like your input on this: How many people do you know that have been successful doing something other than what I advise? I know many who have been successful with approach I support. Actually the only people I know who have been successful over the long term are the ones who changed their lifestyle and started eating healthy and exercising.
JT, Matt HAS helped alot of people. That's why his blog has vastly more readers now than it did a year ago. With all due respect, he doesn't need your advice. Aajonus and his clients don't exercise and they're all thin if they follow his advice. Exercise is not essential to having a healthy body weight. Many thin people do no exercise. Many obese people exercise a lot and eat very little (of the wrong things).
"No, I don't think need most people need much coaching if they just want to learn to eat healthy and be normal. I just think it could be useful if someone wanted to take the exercise and physiques development to the next level, because most people do it wrong by just doing tons of cardio and eating less till they burnout."
I have never done tons of cardio. I always did high-intensity short exercise (like sprints) and lifted weights. I think Matt knows about the harm done by excessive cardio, and none of his readers are going to make that mistake.
"Again, I would like your input on this: How many people do you know that have been successful doing something other than what I advise? I know many who have been successful with approach I support. Actually the only people I know who have been successful over the long term are the ones who changed their lifestyle and started eating healthy and exercising."
From what you have written, you're suggesting limiting fat more than necessary and telling people they will have to put up with hunger to achieve the physique you regard as ideal. Most people here aren't top models and don't aspire to be big action movie stars or anything of that nature. Just because everyone you know does something does not prove they are right. Matt and AV are going against the grain telling people to over-eat and not abuse their body with exercise. Go read Pottenger's Cats. Those cats weren't exercising but the raw meat built up their muscles. The same has been observed in humans, but you dismiss it because you say you got sick and weak on the diet. How long did you give it? A month?
Thanks JT. That is more acceptable. I'm not afraid of being challenged, and actively seek it out. Don't let me scare you off by getting in your face a little. But it worked. Your comment after that is much more down to earth and keeps the fine details in better perspective.
The greatest long-term success stories, excluding the obsessive, are those that stressed quality food over quantity of food. You are right that much wiser approaches in the exercise category should be applied. You are also correct in saying that fitness coaches have a lot of insight to share with the typical dieter stuck in Jenny Craig/cardio mode.
I agree that Matt has helped a lot of people. He has done this by helping them get over the diet mentality that does so much harm. That is what he is good at, being a critic of the diet industry that hurts so many people.
Lots of people stay thin with no exercise. Low carb, paleo, raw, vegan, etc… are examples of unhealthy diets that keep people thin. A lot also depends on what their setpoint is. Changing it and staying healthy is the hard thing. You don't need exercise to be thin, but I think it is important if health is your goal.
I am not impressed with anything coming from AV, his was the first guru diet I tried and is what caused my health to spiral down in the first place. It is also extremely unhealthy on a social level as well.
"there is no reason to believe anything that AV says. I definitely don't believe in the detox stuff that most of these diet gurus claim is causing all the negative effects that people have on their diets. If you feel better on a high fat diet then you should dot it. I think the schwarzbein diet is the best starting or default diet fir most people."
There is no reason to believe what you say. We should be skeptical of everyone telling us what the ideal diet is, including Schwarzbein. If AV really has cured cancer and all kinds of other diseases, there's a reason to believe him. And you can talk to people who confirm that he has indeed cured those diseases. I believe him more than Dr. Oz, dumb body-builders eating low-fat, Dean Ornish, Joel Fuhrman, etc. Can you prove that what you or anbody else experienced was not detox?
"Lots of people stay thin with no exercise. Low carb, paleo, raw, vegan, etc… are examples of unhealthy diets that keep people thin. A lot also depends on what their setpoint is. Changing it and staying healthy is the hard thing. You don't need exercise to be thin, but I think it is important if health is your goal."
Many healthy groups have eaten low carb, raw, and paleo diets. You're wrong to dismiss them as unhealthy. I think zero-carb is an unhealthy diet because of how it suppresses appetite. Tribes that ate zero-carb like the Eskimo also stuffed themselves with food. They ate beyond appetite and that is why they were able to remain as healthy as they did, IMO. Unless you deliberately overeat, then raw diets and low-carb diets and paleo diets might mess up metabolism. I believe low-carb diets are bad in the long-term for most people, esp when they include diet sodas and other chemical garbage.
"I am not impressed with anything coming from AV, his was the first guru diet I tried and is what caused my health to spiral down in the first place. It is also extremely unhealthy on a social level as well."
Tell it to Pottenger's Cats. It is your own hang-up if you can't eat raw meat socially. I would eat raw meat right in front of my mother, grandparents, friends, etc. if it made me feel good, or I thought it would keep me healthy longer than someone who doesn't eat it. We can be skeptical of AV, but he looks healthy to me. And his eyes are perfectly clear blue, which might mean something if you believe in iridology (using the eyes to gauge someone's health). He does blame a lot of problems on detox, but can you prove that he's wrong?
"Saying that people can consciously choose to eat less and exercise more and alter their weight long-term once again shows complete ignorance of the complexity of the science. Top obesity researchers have all concluded that consious efforts to change the calorie-in calorie-out balance are futile."
Matt: The word "consciously" is the most important one here, at least to me. That's where all the experts get it wrong, that's where most people get it wrong. Ideally we want to learn how to get the body to self-regulate in a healthy way. Not *forcing* a meal plan, not *forcing* an exercise routine, but eating healthy because we want to, being active because you have the energy.
For a couple months early this year, I hated exercise. I think this was coming off my low-carb, extreme IFing, heavy duty exercise experiment. It really zapped me. I was kinda glad I had to take 6 weeks off after surgery.
Lately, after the milk diet and now from eating plenty of real food (and more carbs than I imagined I could eat without putting on fat), I am just buzzing with energy and have to actually make myself stop exercising (still cautious about adrenal burnout, you know).
The point is, I actually *want* to exercise and am not dragging myself out of bed to do it. I didn't really think that was possible. I thought exercise was a no-pain-no-gain thing, but this is awesome.
I agree. I really think eating a normo-caloric diet and having lots of energy and desire to be physically active is the result of health and a strong metabolism – it will not deliver health and a strong metabolism to you.
I keep going back to Guyenet's December post on butyric acid where the rats supplemented with butyric acid had a huge rise in body temperature, suddenly became more physically active, started eating less, lost weight, dropped insulin levels, dropped triglycerides, dropped cholesterol, etc. This all happened unconsciously just by giving them a good dose of short-chain saturated fat.
That's the metabolic state I'm trying to deliver through diet changes and strategies.
So would this be Sally Fallon and Mary Enig's coconut oil diet?
i am a bit confused about the reference to following Schwarzbein then using a high unrefined (who cares? it's all sugar and half fructose, approx) sugar drink w some protein powder (refined, no?)…. i don't see that in the Schwarzbein healing plan or lifestyle. and in fact a cup of sugar,( and that's w/o figuring what occurs even naturally in the rest of the days eats), figures out to be similar to SAD. isn't that how many of us ended up on these forums?
Matt, i also see some posts about you eating carbs until you crave meat and fat, then eating those items until satisfied.
now that also does not sound Schwarzbein-ish. yet you still seem to sing her praises.
what's the deal?
i may very well be the oldest person following here, so it may be just that i'm getting various posts confused……
I don't consume any unrefined sugar drinks. That is JT's deal, and something Ray Peat might condone. I'm interested in their ideas, but haven't been convinced yet to say the least. I'm also strongly opposed to protein drinks and powders, which are basically the white sugar version of protein.
As far as mixing things up, I'll always be a dietary adventurer and experimentalist. You haven't seen me run and tell everyone to do carb cycling. Rather, I welcome people's experimentation into it while pointing out the potential dangers and generally trying to discourage that type of mindset towards food in general. But I know it has "worked" for some.
I sing many people's praises, but am obviously not in full agreement with any author/blogger/etc. Schwarzbein, however, has got many of the major points correct.
Sally and Mary are talking about medium-chain triglcyerides, not butyric acid, but yes – it's that general idea.
Butyric acid is produced by the gut when fiber and indigestible starch is fermented (resistant starch, like that found in grains and legumes) – and is found in highest concentration in butterfat.
Hey JT and Matt,
Riveting discussion here, really enjoy it. So if I'm reading your positions correctly, you are saying: eat real foods (basically no refined sugars, refined grains, no excess PUFAs) to a level that makes you feel good. Exercise when you want to but do it in a smart way (short bouts of high intensity, lift heavy weights, stay away from excessive amounts of anything). I like this approach but I have some questions:
JT – What do you have against the paleo approach? I have seen you reference it many times in a negative light.
Matt – For body comp specific goals (think sub 10% for a male for example, fairly ripped) would you concede that while eating good food, that one must watch calories somewhat to lean out? While I don't think one has to go into a severe deficit, a slight one (possibly induced by exercise) would be need to be present. I know you have had bad experiences with being sub-5% bodyfat but some are able to keep it up and appear to be ok (Martin Berkhan comes to mind).
Thanks for your thoughts guys, much appreciated!
Hey matt, It's Martin.
I don't mind for the picture. No one I know is ever going to come on your blog in a million year (no interest in diets or health and they don't speak english except for my ex, on american friend and my online "friends". The pics are on my facebook anyway !!
JT and Matt:
As a follow-up, just to get some frame of reference here, what are your thoughts on the Zone diet if one used real foods? I mix up Crossfit and pure strength lifting as my training and I was thinking of following the Zone as many Crossfitter's have had good success with it. At least it might be a good place to start because I understand what real food is but I think the Zone would be a good accounting tool to make sure that I don't eat too much of it (goal is to lean out, if you haven't noticed). Thanks
Zone is fine Mark. No need to overdose fish oil, or avoid saturated fat, or keep calories super low.
I have gotten very lean with exercise and eating to appetite of clean foods. But I did this with large quantities of hiking, not high-intensity training.
If you are going to try a calorie deficit, I think you'd be better off following Berkhan or some other fitness guru who understands the pitfalls of calorie deficits and has developed some kind of methodology to circumvent it…
….While being cautious, and keeping an eye on body temp. and such.
Thanks Matt. I am going to give it a go, starting on June 6. Until then I will be occupied studying for a test. I was thinking of using fruit and veggies carb sources for most of the day while throwing in starchy carbs before and after working out. I'm very excited to see how it goes. I don't plan on doing much fish oil and I'm not going to avoid eggs or coconut oil. Some unplanned weekend meals out will help to balance out calories. Thanks Matt, I'll send you an update by the end of June. I'm going to track performance, weight, measurements, and temps.
Oh yeah, I meant to say in regards to the Zone that I don't think 18 blocks of carbs a day (162 grams at least) is low carb, so I'm not worried about that. Protein will be around 126 grams roughly. That is much lower than the 1 g/lb of bodyweight that many use, so it will be interesting to see how my strength responds.
How to kill your thyroid with food:
Ha ha. Thanks Gazelle. Don't think most humans naturally have an instinct to eat 3 pounds of raw bok choy per day, but if I get a craving for it, I'll try to keep it under control!
Can't wait to hear your reports. I'm planning on being a little more focused on leaning out after raising metabolism over the course of this summer starting around the first of July if all goes to plan. So we may have interesting things to discuss, and I'm certainly curiously awaiting your results.
I don't think I'll be following Peat's advice on sugar…at least not until I'm his age.
Then I am not going to just eat a pint of the Hag; I will buy one of those big vats that they scoop out of at the ice cream shops!!
I mean, what the hell. I'll be 80!!
I agree completely in regards to healing w/o meds. I don't know if Peat's and Barnes dietary recommendations are worth while since thyroid is added anyway.
BUT maybe that Haagen Daz will feel healthier if I take a little thyroid. Any excuse to indulge….
I may need both when I'm that age!!
And if you think I'm being sarcastic, let me explain my position; I am a hospice RN. I tell my patients to eat whatever they want….No more rules.
That is awesome progress! Very similar to what happened with me.
I think the Zone is a good balanced starting point for most people. Then you can tweak the ratios up or down depending on your response. I don't like paleo because I think the majority of people do better with starch in their diet. I also just think it is just kind irrational to think food is good just because it is paleo and bad just because it is neolithic.
I followed schwarzbein for about a year before switching to adding in more carbs and sugar because of peats advice. I make the protein sugar drink because it convenient, and without I have to force feed myself to get enough calories and protein. I have an extremely high activity level, engaging in intense exercise 2-3 hours a day. I would recommend what I do for most people unless they are in my situation. It has worked out well for me as I have gotten over the "healthy" food dogma, and the stigmatization of sugar.
Thanks for the link:)
Hello. Your past diet sounds alot like what mine was high prot/low fat/low to mod carbs. What would you say the breakdown of your diet is now? If you do the milk diet part time–what meals do you like to replace with it? I did find a high quality milk.
Anyway I've been following some of the ideas of the HED and think it's a great way to eat b'cos it takes the stress out of counting cals or is today a hi or lo carb day, etc. Eating real food–what a concept!
Hopefully my metabolism will heal.
Hospice nurse eh? Hospice nurses are badasses from my personal experience, and have amazing outlooks on life.
Hello. Your past diet sounds alot like what mine was high prot/low fat/low to mod carbs. What would you say the breakdown of your diet is now? If you do the milk diet part time–what meals do you like to replace with it? I did find a high quality milk."
You know I don't really keep track of my mac rat nuts anymore. Part of going 180 was to quit over-thinking. The main thing I did was increase saturated fat. I eat very low omega six. I've mostly quit eating in restaurants and the bacon which I used to sort of jumpstart back into the world of fat, has been scaled way back. (There was a time when I was eating half a pound a week, now it's a couple pieces total.) I increased the amount of carb from potatoes, corn and sweet potatoes and cut way back on refined carbs. I tweaked my bread to be either sprouted, or freshly ground wheat, but I eat less bread in general. Once I started eating saturated fat again it became much easier to walk away from things like pasta and white bread.
I stay away from fruit, for the most part, a couple pieces a week, for a treat. I went through a long period of the winter when I wasn't interested in green vegetables. Suddenly now that the sun is back I can't get enough salad. Yesterday I actually switched, mid-meal from a cheeseburger to a salad. It was like the cheeseburger lost its pull and the lettuce was calling me.
I've been replacing breakfast and sometimes lunch with milk. Mostly its the convenience factor. I can sleep in get up, go to work and sip milk all morning. I used to get really hungry about 10:00 a.m., and that was when I was at my snackiest, most vulnerable to the demons of caffeine, sugar and white carbs. I just noticed it's 10:30 a.m. and if someone walked in here with donuts and coffee, I think I could honestly say I would tell them to take a hike.
I try to still build my meals around protein. The meals I've been eating on the milk diet have similar to what I was eating before: Meat, starch, veg, but with the milk, my portion sizes have gone down, especially the starch.
I have never seen hypertension linked to milk before, but that is EXACTLY my experience.
I've had high bp forever. Since my surgery in 2007, I was on a beta-blocker (eventually weaned off) and ever-increasing doses of an ACE inhibitor, and generally stayed in the 180/110 range.
After 2 years of disability, I was pissed at my doctors and all my scripts expired. And I found a local dairy that was making deliveries of raw milk, so decided to try it. I hadn't had milk in well over a decade, cause it's carby and I'm diabetic, but ate other dairy. So I drank raw milk, not like you guys, just about a gallon a week. And I was also getting lots of good pasture-raised butter and eating it like crazy, something in there I was obviously craving. So once I got back to the doctor, my bp was running 140/100 and I just never filled the Lisonopril script again.
It went down further once I started on hydrocortisone and supping K in a serious fashion to get my serum into the ideal 4.2-4.3 range.
About iodine… of course, I've heard many of the glowing stories about I and Dr. Davis thinks it'a huge. But I've also heard a lot of horror stories from people getting very sick using Iodoral, especially people with Hashi's. The leader of my adrenal group thinks it's very bad for people with adrenal fatigue because it causes detox. I tried it for a while and it didn't seem to do anything at all, one way or the other.
Jem, I have a similar attitude to you.
A woman in her eighties was asking my advice about her slightly elevated blood glucose cause I'm a very experienced diabetic.. I said in her position, I'd go have a hot fudge sundae immediately.
But all that sodium in the milk! Surely it couldn't have brought your blood pressure down!
Hot fudge sundae…. I love it. You have truly mastered the right attitude about health. When you're in your 80's it's time to let it all hang loose. I'm totally gonna be one of those old guys that grabs the ass of every woman under that age of 60 within reach.