We’ve been talking about women’s hormones a lot lately, but there are certainly many parallels between progesterone (the primary female hormone to try to maximize) and testosterone in men. In men, when the metabolism is low, testosterone levels fall.
This all makes perfect sense of course. With a low metabolism you have low energy for exercise, trouble building muscle or maintaining lean muscle mass, less speed, strength, and athletic performance, and typically less energy to divert to sexual desire. This all parallels with testosterone levels, which rise and fall with your overall metabolic rate.
To raise testosterone levels, it requires a pro-thyroid and anti-stress hormone diet and lifestyle. Lots of food with an emphasis on carbohydrates, anabolic-type exercise (sprints, weightlifting), lots of sleep, avoidance of catabolic exercise (endurance, ?cardio?), and so forth are all important factors. Of course, any chronic psychosocial trauma or distress, chronic infection, or countless other stressors can blunt testosterone production, but the basics can usually get you at least some results.
To exemplify how this all works with a real person in the real world, we will make fun of Martin, the Belgian Jackhammer we’ll call him (explained later). Martin and I are always in close contact as we have virtually identical responses to various weird diets down to very exact and peculiar physiological responses ? like dribbling piss all over ourselves if we eat too much saturated fat in one sitting, or developing chest pain after an extended period of time on a low-carb diet.
Martin spent a year or so on a zero carb diet. Without carbohydrates, the body has an extremely hard time converting thyroid hormones into the active thyroid hormone T3 (not referencing a Schwarzeneggar film here). Metabolism plummets, especially after the initial honeymoon period when the adrenals are still temporarily strong enough to prop up the metabolic rate, and testosterone falls with it.
Of course, in the Zero Carb religion of Skeletor (Charles Washington), carbohydrates are the devil that make you fat, make you a wimp that would have been conquered by a more carnivorous tribe back in the day, raise your triglycerides, raise your ?bad cholesterol? (LDL), lower your ?good cholesterol? (HDL), raise your uric acid levels, raise your blood sugar, and predispose you to heart disease in every way imaginable if you even live long enough to see your blood test results after ingesting carbotoxin.
Well, with real people in the real world eating carbohydrates as part of an overall comprehensive health program designed to get to the root of why people are metabolizing food incorrectly, that’s simply not what happens.
Martin made the transition from Zero Carb to a 180-style way of life starting a little over a year ago. It was not an easy transition. The kid’s wiener was covered with yeast with a severe candida bloom, and he had some other transitional issues as well, like gluten intolerance (I know I know, a Belgian that can’t eat waffles. It’s totally f?ed up). But he powered through it.
The result was an increase in muscle mass and decrease in body fat, disappearance of candida, and some other positives including enhanced glucose clearance ? all signs of improved insulin sensitivity, and a few other improvements such as an increase in sex drive.
Normally any fool could see clearly that testosterone levels had risen with this new strategy. But we don’t have to speculate in Martin’s case. Martin’s total testosterone level a year ago was 325. Now it is 715, a 120% INCREASE IN ONLY ONE YEAR. Not all cases will be this simple, but many will be. Eat the food (ETF), raise your testosterone.
As you can see from what he wrote to me, his orthorexic health fanaticism has really gone wild! He has no fun at all and stays at home eating nothing but the healthiest gluten-free foods he can find to obtain those impressive results?
?I’ve just had the results of a blood test I had done two weeks ago, and I think you might be interested in the results. I usually eat a lot of pasta, bread and potatoes, 200g of lean meat and olive oil and coconut oil as main fats (around 20-25% fat as calories). Oh and keep in mind that I had drunk like crazy two 2 days before with my cousin and we literally stuffed ourselves on lasagna (I ate half a loaf of bread and 800g lasagna) with crisps and of course tons of beer lol. I was even afraid to still be drunk 48hours later. And of course the mandatory kebab at 6am, no party is a true success without it :-D !
After this heavy carb and alcohol binge came Martin’s blood tests. His triglycerides were at an extremely high and dangerous level just like the low-carb prophecy?
Triglycerides ? 73
His cholesterol numbers are even more horrifying!!! His total cholesterol dropped from 220 to 148 and his HDL actually rose during that 72 point drop.
Total cholesterol – 148
HDL – 58
LDL – 75
For your interest, here is his exact testosterone panel?
Total testosterone: 715 (200-800)
sex hormone binding globulin: 0.8 (0.3 – 1.5)
free testosterone: 17.8 (5 – 20)
free testosterone index 89 (15 – 100)
bioavailable testosterione 416 (100-425)
Now this may come as a real shocker, but believe it or not his uric acid levels were too high eating an all-meat diet!!! I know it’s crazy. Strangely, researchers report that the grass becomes wet in Belgium when it rains and that the sun sets in the West. Peculiar indeed. Anyway, you can see he’s well onto developing gout now!
Uric acid: 5.7 (it was above 7.2 on ZC)
Back when I was under the influence of low-carbism, my friend Scott had a history of gout, and had a mild heart attack at around the age of 60. I told him basically that all the healthy food in the world wasn’t going to save him, and that he must ‘take action to bring his insulin under control. He cut his carbs and developed a severe gout reoccurrence within weeks. Way to go coach Matt! Fortunately I’m not as dumb as I used to be.
Anyway, back to the Belgian Jackhammer?
All these carbs have made him a raging diabetic too.
Fasting blood glucose ? 87
Another good paradox is that his iron levels are high on a diet very high in phytic acid, as one of his top sources of calories is whole wheat pasta.It is not ?good? to have high iron levels by any stretch, but eating a lot of phytic acid hasn’t made his teeth fall out or left him with iron deficiency anemia by any stretch. The phytic acid content of foods can probably be filed deep into a large pile of alternative nutrition soapbox minutiae. Phytic acid may even have benefits that outweigh the drawbacks, such as anti-cancer and anti-diabetic properties. Most people’s time and energy is probably not well-spent doing a lot of soaking and fermenting at home to remove phytic acid.
It’s also of interest that Martin’s blood clotting factors ? fibrinogen and thrombocytes are low. This is obviously a great protector against heart attack (coronary thrombosis) and probably hints at low inflammation levels in general (thromboxanes for example are Arachidonic acid-derived, and getting levels on the low-side is one of the reasons for eating a low-PUFA diet).
This is of course just one example and one person, and a young male at that. It’s not like every person can expect these results. But I had to put it up because it is the perfect embodiment of the broader objectives at 180DegreeHealth. Relax, stop obsessing over the perfect diet, never restrict carbohydrates or calories or anything to any severe degree, live your life and have fun ? and get great results all across the board from physique enhancement to fewer food intolerances to improved blood tests indicative of raised thyroid output (such as dramatic LDL lowering with dramatic testosterone increase).
The only downer is the complaints coming from Martin’s girlfriend. She has noticed a dramatic increase in pain, inflammation, and soreness in the midsection and is walking funny. Testosterone hurts. The Belgian Jackhammer strikes again!!!
(Sorry, but I have to keep Martin entertained. We’ve exchanged enough emails about our junk that I feel obligated to give him a high testosterone nickname, or dickname as it were).
More coming up soon on building muscle, how I built 15 or so pounds of lean muscle in 3 months when I’ve never been able to get results like that ever before in my life, and how an increase in testosterone factors in to all of it.
If you are a male suffering from low testorone levels, following the simple dietary and lifestyle guildelines lined out in Diet Recovery about how to RAISE YOUR METABOLISM?will very likely get you somewhere between a little and a lot of improvement.
Great post Matt. Good for the science/number peeps. The yeast plum on the end of a wiener was a great visual!
Well to compliment more low carb BS, good ole Scott has a new post as well. This one actually kind of made me shake my head a little. Makes me reconsider his understanding of the metabolism, with comments that state "overeating" and especially "overeating" saturated fats and refined carbs are the cause of insulin resistance. The argument that the cell walls get more "rigid" made me downright laugh.
Just shows we are all just floating along learning what we can, and no one has a good answer…really.
There was a recent trial in which a Vitamin D3 supplement significantly increased total and free testosterone–kind of surprising, but interesting…
Abel has many things to contribute. That doesn't make him infallible. No researcher ever is. It's only been 3 years since I was telling people with gout to eat more meat for Pete's sake!
I think it's much more clear that insulin resistance is caused by elevations in free fatty acids from excessive adrenal activity/low thyroid activity to burn up those fatty acids. Of course this pair is frequently seen in tandem and it swings both ways – thyroid lowers cortisol, and lowering cortisol raises thyroid.
This also makes it possible for something besides diet to cause insulin resistance, but any stressor.
Dieting, social disclocation, death of a loved one, stress, chronic infection – all of these things increase insulin resistance, belly fat deposition, and so forth. None of them can be explained by "saturated fat and refined carbs." All of them can be explained by the cortisol/thyroid model of the human stress response.
Re: glucose clearance, what are your thoughts on my numbers Matt? I am the one with PCOS, hypothyroidism and adrenal insufficiency, but as you know have been increasing my carbs.
Anyway, my fasting numbers sometimes dip into the 82-86 region, which makes me really happy; but most of the time they are in the 90s. And I eat the same food most days; so I don't get it.
Also, my 1 hour PP readings are basically crap. They are usually in the 130s up to 140; but my 2 hr PP readings are usually in the 90s to early 100s. Any thoughts on why my 2hr PP are SOOOOO much better than my 1 hr readings?
Also, why am I only sometimes busting out great fasting numbers? Why not all the time?
Sorry I wasn't clear there – most of the time my 2 hr PP are in the laste 90s.
McGwire was my idol back in the day! I was working at putt putt golf the day he broke the record. I had me a bottle of andro I took too of course.
Oh and by the way, 2 weeks of 3 hours/night sleep lowered my temps about one degree. Probably didn't help my test levels too much either.
That Scott Abel article was good; if only he didn't constantly mention calorie and portion control. Sigh….
I have read about the sat fat causing IR before though, so it kinda worrie me.
The phytic acid thing is interesting. Why do you think traditional peoples were soaking and souring grains and legumes then? It must increase the availability of nutrients somehow, or decrease something unwanted. I doubt they were just unintentionally wasting their time.
Did Martin do anything special to resolve the gluten intolerance?
Interesting article, its good to see a real example of healing.
When you deal with candida by raising body temperature, are there still those nasty die-off reactions or is the elimination more clean and gradual?
Also, I developed hypoglycemia after raising my body temperature and gaining weight -had to eat every 2-3 hours and could not stay full at all. I would eat and my stomach would be empty, this happened especially at night where I had to wake up 2-3 times to keep eating. Last few days I cut my saturated fat intake which has helped out a lot. I was getting 1-2 tablespoons of either butter or coconut oil with every meal (4+ per day).
Matt great post, about time we switched to male hormones! I wonder how much my Vitamin T has risen since ETF, shame I never got it checked in the low carb days so not much point now…. I can feel it is much higher now though, which is all that matters. Looking forward to your muscle gaining tips.
@ Tierney: I think like everything Phytic Acid is good in moderation. I don't know where the Paleo people get all this hate for it from I always learnt it was an effective and beneficial phytochemical http://tinyurl.com/8994f
Chris, I am not opposed to that viewpoint. I am just wondering why all traditional methods of grain/legume preparation involved soaking, fermenting, sprouting, etc, if not to remove the phytic acid?
Part of me wishes I had taken those sorts of numbers before EF so I could see the improvement.
Oh well, I've put on 13 lbs while losing an inch of my waist in the last two months thanks to RRARF + PACE exercises. I guess that's a minimum of 13 lbs of lean tissue, and probably more like 15+. I'm guessing my T levels are fine.
Not all traditional diets feature the fermentation of grains and legumes, such as several central American peoples or the Sikhs and Hunzas. Several cultures did not soak or ferment grains. I don't think it's a harmful practice, but I don't think anyone should worry about having a bowl of oatmeal every morning.
I don't think the die-offs would be that nasty, or that the symptoms called "candida die off" are attributable entirely to candida actually croaking. That's probably just a happy story that makes sense to people, but has no basis in reality – like the saturated fat and cholesterol reslationship.
As far as insulin resistance and blood sugar regulation is concerned, there's no doubt that excessive fat intake impairs glucose metabolism. Everyone probably has a threshold in which fat becomes problematic on a high-carb diet, and it probably depends on metabolic rate and speed of fat oxidation.
But when looking at fat vs. carbohydrate, carbs are a clear victor in terms of a superior calorie source. That is certainly true as it pertains to muscle-building, muscle recovery, energy levels, athletic performance, and on and on.
I'd bet my life that Carl Lewis and Michael Phelps would have a combined total of Zero gold medals if they were eating Jan Kwasniewski's "Optimal Diet." Lance Armstrong's Tour de France titles would total Zero following the "Primal Blueprint."
I also like that eating more reasonable amounts of fat free up the ability to eat fruit and tolerate it really well.
With 658 species of primates living on high-carb diets with the amount of fat Martin is eating or less, it makes the belief that such a diet might lead to a "fat defiency" of some kind pretty ludicrous.
Those are not that bad. The first number to come down is 2 hour postprandial. Your body is stowing away that glucose it's just got a time lag on it, but that will hopefully improve. Eventually, if all goes well, your normal insulin response and sensitivity will be restored and you'll be having lower blood sugar peaks at one hour, have fasting levels more consistenly at 85 (higher and sporadic levels usually indicate higher stress hormone levels), and 2-hour tests consistenly the same as your fasting levels.
I think the most effective way to get there is to keep hammering carbs and giving your glucose metabolism frequent "workouts."
With the name Brock, one has to figure higher T levels anyway. Although if you had my last name your T levels would be off the charts…
"Hi, I'm Brock. Brock Stone."
So many manly images come to mind with that name. Brick laying. Stone masonry. Brute. Jock. Cock. Rock. Brawn.
Maybe we could get together down here in Florida and find some gators and do sort of a gator-wrestling PACE-style workout. We'll take your car. I have a Mini. That won't do. Not for driving at least. Maybe for a light workout. We could pass it back and forth like a medicine ball.
You’re funny! I love your writing style.
has anyone else experimented with lots of powdered gelatin. i've been eating a lot + some pure glycine for a month and i'm a walking erection. i think it is what is making me feel super relaxed too.
"On the tryptophan-poor diet, the amount of serotonin in the brain decreased. When brain serotonin decreases, the level of testosterone in male animals increases. More than 20 years ago, a chemical (p-chlorophenylalanine) that inhibits serotonin synthesis was found to tremendously increase libido."
gelatin has no tryptophan, which converts to serotonin, and lots of glycine which opposes serotonin. i love you ray peat.
I eat very little muscle meat anymore and have nothing but positives to say about it. Mostly shellfish, eggs, and dairy for me. Haven't gotten into the gelatin yet but am not opposed to the idea at all. I remember in Vietnam I always joked about how I never saw anyone eat a breast, thigh, drumstick, or wing. It was always bowls full of duck and chicken feet. Why always the feet? Well, because that's where the good stuff is at.
I will say that personally, on the topic of weiners and testosterone, erectile function is more or less perfectly correlated to the quantity of fruit sugar I consume. A banana in the belly is worth two in the bush.
I still don't get Peat's anti serotonin stance. Can anyone explain to me in plain English what the problem with serotonin is?
i can't explain it any better than he does http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/serotonin.shtml
i'd never read about it before i read that article but its seems like something to be kept in check by good thyroid function, like cortisol
Hooray for testosterone! Haven't read the article yet, but this just had to be said.
If my visiual appearance is any indication, my testosterone levels have defintitely increased, even without me really doing that much exercise. We'll see where this leads me as soon as I will finally be able to hit the gym in a decent rythm in a month or so.
That has been my experience so far. I have not been eating pure glycine, but I have been making a lot of home made jell-os, making lots of stock, adding gelatin to sauces, and soups when not using stock etc. Not really low fat, but coconut milk ice cream really benefits with some gelatin. It adds a nice texture and you don't have to get out the hammer and chisel to get shit out of the tub.
LOL "Banana in the belly is worth two in the bush." That of course depends on who's.
Anyone got a good Gelatin Supplier in the UK? All the standard stuff in the baking sections is Hydrolyzed crap, would love to give the real deal a try.
Also gotta second Matt's protein pushing. Dairy and Eggs FTW. A bit of red meat here and there but poultry sorta freaks me out now for some reason…..
i bought NOW brand gelatin and glycine from iherb, 5lbs 40$ which i think is pretty good. 2 days delivery to ireland. i don't know if its hydrolyzed but it works. ray peat recommends Great Lakes Gelatin but they don't ship outside USA.
They will shape to Canada as I’ve purchased quite a bit from them. Not sure about Ireland. Give them a call.
Nice, Thanks Terpol. Never thought of shipping from outside the UK. Just ordered some Beef Gelatin from NOW, it is definitely good stuff and not hydrolysed…. Looking forward to try it out.
my main concern is hair loss, do you think high testosterone can speed up male pattern baldness?
Have you heard some experience about RRARF-hair loss?
I just wanted to let you know that I attended a seminar over the weekend and the resulting message that I got out of it was that I need to focus on getting more sleep and eating more before I can even think about "leaning out". My new assignment is getting as much sleep as I can, with the ultimate goal of not needing an alarm clock. That will be quite the accomplishment given that I get up at 4:30 am! The speaker made me realize that just like certain foods can kill me in the long-term, so can stress from not sleeping enough. I just thought I'd pass it along as I just kept thinking during the day: "Eat the Food!"
Subscribing to comments.
I'm curious what you think so-called candida die-off is a symptom of, if not that. I'd always thought that was kinda 'pat' too.
I'm finally dealing with a longstanding candida issue (had to get rid of toxic metals first, per my ND)–and it's way better than it was when I was doing low-to-no-carb. A year ago, I had _five_ yeast species overgrowing and partying out: now, even after reintroducing fruit, introducing starch, there are only two and not huge amounts.
My ND put me on the most lenient candida diet you ever heard of, including as many yams, parsnips, legumes, etc, as I want, and five servings of fruit per week! And he said that the most important thing is not to restrict at all in this process (he knows me too well…) I thought that was pretty cool.
On the phytic acid thing: just a thought–I find that beans cook waay faster if I presoak them, and usually cook 'better' too. I wonder if it's anything to do with the raffinose and stachyone (indigestible (to us) starches)–whether it helps to break them down?
I'm confused by the serotonin thing too (I have read Peat's article): I quit taking my 5htp for a bit and didn't feel better for it, and my ND wants me to keep taking it: says his experience is that it's especially helpful for people recovering from EDs…
Terpol – Is the Now brand of gelatine dissolvable in liquid? The stuff in the supermarkets here gets all gooey and gross.
Sometimes it sucks living on such as small island re: the ease of getting certain products or foods items. What I want most of all is cheap mac nuts, which are the only low PUFA nut around.
I don't think testosterone and hair loss have a clearcut relationship. Men start losing their hair as testosterone drops with age, not rises.
I wouldn't fight it too hard. Keep in mind also that sleep requirements diminish as metabolism rises.
Harley of 30bananasaday claims a 100% success rate with candida, and I actually believe him. I'm not even sure it would be possible to develop candida on a diet that low in fat. I think you'll find that you could easily eat 5 servings of fruit for breakfast, not per week, and have fewer candida issues, not more.
Beware of any candida diet. Talk about creating a self-fulfilling prophecy. There are dozens of people at 180 that have come from various anti-candida cults like Bee's and other garbage, including the Belgian Jackhammer who no longer suffers any candida issues now that he's fully carbed up and not in a calorie deficit.
it dissolves perfectly in a little hot liquid, in a wide bowl. stir quickly as you slowly pour it in. then you can add the rest of your liquid and its completely smooth, no lumps. the little packets of gelatin in supermarkets here are grainy and unpleasent.
gelatinous hot milk is really nice. apparently gelatin helps in digesting milk and most other things
Oh cool, that's something to look forward to!
By the way, what do you mean when you say "don't fight it too hard"? Do you mean sleep? After I read it twice I wasn't sure what you meant exactly. Thanks!
Geez Matt, I read the article and they are like gold, but then I read the comments and there are little gems from you interspersed throughout.
Can you expound on the "shellfish, eggs, and dairy" a bit more? I worked with a guy who said that he was a vegetarian and basically didn't eat anything that flew or walked on land…basically fish and vegetable products. I am starting to lean this way…tonight's dinner is baked potatoes with broccoli and cheddar cheese. When I eat less "meat" I have less pain in my knees, which is a huge bonus.
Matt, you need some charts or tables…with my inferior memory, I need an easy way to follow along at home.
Yeah, I just meant don't fight yourself too hard. Like trying to go to sleep or stay in bed when you are anxious and not sleepy. That doesn't work anyway.
The more protein one eats, the more minerals they excrete. It is dose dependent. But each amino has it's own general property.
Animal flesh is low in minerals in proportion to protein, while the bones are more the opposite. This is why carnivores chew the bones. It's not out of boredom. It's also why you'll see if you've read Weston A. Price's book that the Eskimo's teeth were worn down to nubs from chewing on bones.
Milk is much higher in minerals, as is shellfish generally-speaking. Shellfish is more akin to eating the animal with the organs, but in a way that is much tastier than trying to grind out eating a slab of beef liver.
Anyway, they are superior sources than flesh.
The other reason is that meats are higher in methionine, which generally causes inflammatory homocysteine levels to rise. Meats also make uric acid levels rise, whereas dairy does not have this effect.
Poultry flesh is probably what Peat would consider the worst due to it's high tryptophan content. Tryptophan levels are much lower in dairy and gelatin. Gelatin has always been Peat's solution for how to get more protein without getting more tryptophan and methionine. In a way it makes sense – rebalancing the ratio by eating more of the type of aminos in the connective tissues that we modern humans throw away, and getting back to balance by eating more of the amino acids found in the connective tissues and cartilage that traditional cultures always ate, often in preference to muscle meat in the form of broths, soups, stews, etc.
A few weeks ago I upped my protein out of curiousity, getting a bunch from salmon, turkey, and cornish game hens. Within a week I sustained an injury, which I knew was not coincidental. I too find excess meat consumption, particularly poultry, to be highly inflammatory.
By the way restriction of these amino acids, not necessarily protein in general, has had major longevity benefits when studied, which Peat points out.
Thanks Matt. I know what you mean. A lot of what I'm trying to do is just de-stress in general and not obsessing about calories and such helps with that!
In light of your "banana in the belly" comment, my 16 year old daughter has always been a huge fruit eater and now has PCOS. I have read that PCOS is caused by excess testosterone, do you think that because she has eaten a lot of fruit over the years, that this may have contributed to excess testosterone? And should she abstain from eating fruit?
Matt–it's funny, I actually ate a la Harley (except low calorie of course) for about six years, and much of my fat-phobia was because of everyone proclaiming that if you ate fruit and fat together you'd go to candida hell (so at that time, I chose for fruit). It's probably true that the candida got really bad when I got over fruitarianism and eventually got into low-carb, but having eaten no fat for so many years and now having gotten used to eating quite a lot of it, I feel so much better with it that I'm loathe to go back to the thirty bananas a day model.
Or are you saying that you can eat starch and fat and still not have yeasty gut parties? (have your cake and frost it too?)
I'm especially interested in this because of the above comment about PCOS and a lots-of-fruit-eating girl. I have PCOS too, apparently, although I'm neither insulin-resistant nor obese, which wikipedia (I know, great source) says most PCOS-manifesters are.
I look forward to hearing more about muscle building. In my experience eating more seems to have been the biggest factor for increasing strength/muscle size.
As Ela hinted at, soaked grains cook a lot faster which potentially has huge convenience advantages for people who rely on wood for heating food.
I'm speculating a bit, but I'm sure there is some truth to that.
Thanks, In–great clarification. I definitely do everything I can to use 'passive preparation' and speed actual cooking time and fuel use. And I'm just trying to conserve the contents of our propane tank! But we may switch to a wood-burning stove at some point, and it takes trees a very long time to grow in AK…
so Mattie, if I follow all the dude recommendations for upping the big T, will I get more of it?
I am doing better now with my hormones, due to the fact that I added more heavy lifting classes and some more walk/run type deals. Feeling lots less estrogeny.
I just started doing the gelatin + glycine thing about a week ago, after rereading some RPeat. At the same time, I started taking some vit C again. I'm not generally a supplements person, but there potentially is some synergy here, as gelatin contains a lot of collagen precursors, and vitamin C is apparently consumed during collagen synthesis.
I've just been pouring an envelope of the Knox gelatin into whatever I'm eating — cereal, mashed potatoes, soups, etc. It tastes fine to me (I don't even notice it) as long as I don't get greedy and pour in too much.
@The Real Will,
One explanation for why meat causes joint pain is that muscle meats have high proportions of the same amino acids that are released during stress (when your body is breaking down your own muscle). Gelatin has a different mix of amino acids, specifically, glycine and proline, that are good building blocks for connective tissue.
FWIW, my 3-4 days of high gelatin + vitamin C diet has significantly reduced my knee pain. But it's also brought on a friggin' big time headache today. Related? Dunno.
It turns out that the glutamic acid:glycine ratio for white flour is 9:1, whereas potatoes are 6:1 and white rice is 4:1. While this is no doubt oversimplifying things, perhaps that's a factor into why rice seems to be better tolerated than wheat.
There seems to be some backing away from high-fat meals here. But a high carb meal turns into saturated fat in the body anyway. So why should fat cause problems with fruit, but carbs don't? Especially starches, which I thought would get converted to fat pretty quickly — just based on the fact that starch is broken down and cleared fast.
"As far as insulin resistance and blood sugar regulation is concerned, there's no doubt that excessive fat intake impairs glucose metabolism."
If you don't mind me asking, what are you basing this statement on?
Do you mean that increases in fat, from any baseline intake, lead to a linear decrease in glucose control?
There certainly seems to be a decrease in glucose control when people go on very low-carb diets, but physiologically that makes perfect sense.
Very funny post about me ! Now I kind of understand why you said "I won't mention your name!" ahah ! I'm glad it looks like YOU made the joke about my GF… Thanks because I'm afraid she might be reading the article lol. Now I can say "Honeslty, I don't know what he's talking about?! Shocking ! I will have a word with him, seriously…. NOT! " LOL
I just would like to clarify a few things. I am not eating kebab on a daily basis obviously, as it is full of pufa and I very much doubt the quality of the food. But I must confess I invariably eat one at 6 in the morning when I go to bed completely drunk. I also would not recommend drinking a lot, it's just a student thing. Even though I've felt better since I started drinking again, probably because it helps a lot against pressure at university. I know one thing for sure, in my case, alcohol does not make me fat. I usually only drink like once a week. I am not in the habit of having one glass of wine a day for health's sake. I'm more into having 20 beers on Saturday evenings. But again, don't imitate me. I actually mentioned it to Matt to put my results in their true context.
I don't think I mentioned it but in my older blood test my TSH was slightly too high but now it is 0.80 (I don't really know the scale but it is now a third of what it used to be).
I also wanna say that I think that carbs do more to testosterone and sex drive than fat. When Matt was trying a low fat diet last summer, I too did it. I was stuffing myself on unrefined wheat pasta and I had good energy levels and a much increased sex drive. (I was eating at least 250g of pasta at each sitting).
Thanks for chipping in Martin and letting Matt do this post on you, as you can tell it has priven very interesting and helpful. I would be interested to see what you eat on a 'normal' day at the moment?
Also for those interested this 3 part show Dr.Oz did with Gary Taubes is pretty funny http://goo.gl/eNTAv kinda sad seeing Taubes get so annoyed when his thoughts are challenged and also how much more healthy Oz looks eating a high carb diet.
Hey Chris, I can tell you what I had for breakfast this morning: potatoes cut in dice with a mixture of vegetables and a tablespoon of coconut oil. Then as I was still hungry I had 6 slices of whole bread. I try to avoid bread as I think it contains margarine but it is difficult in a bread eating society.
Otherwise, two of my meals are usually unrefined pasta and one of them is potatoes. I drink a lot of soup, I avoid raw vegetables like the plague, I eat 200gr of lean groundbeef (lean means literally 0% fat… and that's all we have unfortunately). And I have one kiwi a day on average. I think i'm gonna try to eat only like 100g of meat now because it seems that I get already too much iron from the pasta (I had less iron when eating 800g of lean meat a day, BTW).
I usually try to avoid dairy because it gives me spots. I suspect it has to do with testosterone because dairy didn't give me spots in the past at all. But when my GF cooks (which is pretty much every evening actually) I often eat dairy fat and much more fat. But I like eating less fat better. It kust feels more right. The fats that I do eat are coconut oil, beef fat and olive oil. I usually add one big tablespoon of fat to my pasta and that's it. But I've had ice cream, mayonnaise, mustard, eggs… I try not to obsess actually.
He didn't mention my weight but it fluctuates between 75kg and 77kg now. And as he said, I think I am leaner than I was on ZC. But I am also more active.
As far as candida symptoms are concerned, I don't ever get any physical symptoms (like rashes). My tongue s very pink when I stay away from dairy and slightly white if I indulge. I haven't had candida on my penis in ages (I had it every 3 days or so on my ZC diet). Cococnut oil used to give me terrible diarrhoaea on ZC but now it doesn't affect my bowels any more.
I still have fatigue and concentration issues and I often forget people's names. A high carb diet helped but did not "cure" me. But I don't know at all what could be causing it. Maybe I just have mental issues like depression, nevrosis or psychosis. Maybe I got a bad trip from too much weed and never came back lol. Honestly, I don't know but I doubt it is "candida".
"Tryptophan levels are much lower in dairy and gelatin."
tryptophan levels are actually higher in milk and cheese than in muscle meat. But I think milk is superior to meat because of it's higher ratio of BCAA's and
glycine &proline to tryptophan and cysteine.
As people revert to an "Eat the Food" approach, after dabbling in low carb, low calorie, intermittent fasting, zero carb, insert any diet approach here, how long do you find that it takes for the body to normalize and approach an appropriate leanness level (say 10-15% for a male)? I only ask because after eating under 1,250 calories all last week, I have eaten to satiety since the weekend and I can already feel myself getting softer. I'm probably around 15% but I'm afraid of going back to 20% while I "wait for my adrenals to recover." I want to believe in what you're talking about but hopefully you can see how it's easy to be skeptical. Thanks for your help!
The guy has/had both gluten intolerance and candida and is eating pasta galore? Something doesn't sound right here….
re buying gelatine
I found it very cheap on eBay (but that was in Germany)
"after eating under 1,250 calories all last week, I have eaten to satiety since the weekend and I can already feel myself getting softer. I'm probably around 15% but I'm afraid of going back to 20% while I "wait for my adrenals to recover."
Mark, I don't want to speak for Matt, but I have a couple thoughts-
1. Why on God's green earth were you eating only 1250 calories? Were you stranded in a remote wilderness with a just a stone ax to procure food? There's really no other excuse.
2. Gaining weight after a starvation period isn't adrenal fatigue, it's just a normal response to starvation. There's no way to avoid it. You simply have to gain the weight to get back to health. You can lose it later.
3. Don't be afraid of a 20% body fat. It's higher than optimal, but it's hardly the end of the world. I'm still higher than that as I try to climb down from the damage I did to myself after a decade of low carb, high stress and poor sleep and excercise habits.
On an unrelated note, I'm getting the feeling I have a higher appetite for/tolerance of fat than most people here. I love it. Butter and cream are food groups for me. I take my oatmeal with both. I put enough butter of bread to the point of opaqueness – no bread visible. Butter + soft cheese is even better. For lunch today I'll have steamed potatoes with sour cream and bacon and a filet of sockeye salmon fried in the bacon greese. Mmmm mm. Delicious. I wouldn't have it any other way and feel great eating this way. Eating pasta with just a tablespoon of olive oil (no cream sauce?!!) would be completely unsatisfactory.
Like Roberto, I would be interested in how fat interferes with insulin control (or causes dribble problems – ha ha! I'm not going to let you forget that one.). My understanding is that SFAs (like coconut oil) helps with glucose control, so it can't be all fats. And no self respecting RRARFer uses soy or crapola oil.
Hmmmm. I hadn't considered gator wrasslin' for workouts, but now that you mention it there IS a large pond by my office. Assuming it takes 30 seconds to choke it out and toss its unconcious form onto the bank, and then 5 minutes to find the next one (both safe assumptions I think), this could work. Naturally I'd have my bowie knife on me just in case any of them got too feisty. ("Now that's a knife.")
For Martin B: On this ETF lifestyle are you still practicing Intermittent Fasting as well? Curious.
Matt: I am a BIG user of bone broths, got beef and chicken in the fridge with a chicken one frozen for back up. I use a lb of chicken feet per pot, very jelloey.
I wonder, ala Mr. Peat, do I need to add his gelatin supplements too?
BTW, my daughter LOVES the broth so that's one for the Mom Nutrition Team.
Lady Haga xoxoxox
No. If anything what generally raises testosterone in men will lower it in women, to a degree. This isn't true for underfed women with low testosterone, but for PCOS masculinity the excess of testosterone comes from lack of progesterone, and the same factors that raise testosterone in men will raise progesterone in women.
Welcome to 180DegreeHealth. To some extent, we look at dietary intolerances and problems like a personal trainer would. If you come to a personal trainer saying "I have a strong upper body but my legs are really weak," the trainer is going to work your legs harder.
The nutritionist mindset would reply, "oh, it looks like you have a lower body exercise intolerance. Only bench presses for from now on."
Maybe a little T. It can be produced in healthy adrenal glands. You can monitor a rise in T by the size of the smile on your husband's face.
Making homemade gelatin-rich broths is great if you are up for it, but you can always add a little extra to it. You won't even notice it's there.
Brock and Roberto-
Yes, I do believe that saturated fat, coconut in particular dietary fat-wise, as well as short-chain fats produced in the gut by the fermentation of fiber/resistant starch, can play a very important role for improving insulin sensitivity due to its impact on the metabolic rate.
I experienced a big improvement in insulin sensitivity and glucose clearance on a very high fat diet, but the difference was that there was an overfeeding element. If a person with a slow metabolism eats a bunch of fat, they will most likely remain insulin resistant because they don't have the metabolic energy to burn off the fatty acids, which can impede with glucose uptake (the worst is the fatty acids that come out of the tissues during a stress response, and is one reason why stress causes insulin resistance).
But the rules of the game change when you are specifically trying to raise metabolism.
Why does Brock handle fat better than others? Handling it like a newborn eating a high-fat diet does? Because his last body temperature reading was over 99 degrees, and he is now engaged in some max exertion training.
Still, in my experience, the more carbs you eat, the more powerful your exercise performance becomes and the faster you recover. But it ain't as tasty that's fo sho.
But tropical fruits and fresh juices are nothing to complain about. I can't imagine waking up to anything more appealing than that. You can still eat taters and eggs for 2nd breakfast.
No fat loss will be permanent unless you get leaner, not softer, eating to satiety. Bouts of low-calorie intakes, harsh restriction, overexercising – these all take you farther away from that.
Oh and Jannis, thanks for the correction on the tryptophan.
Did I miss a post somewhere or something? What's with the fruit love lately in some of your comments, Matt?
You didn't miss anything. I didn't want to say much about it until I had given it a decent trial.
So, with your lifting analogy, can mild dairy/gluten intolerances be "fixed" by practicing eating those things? I can tolerate dairy somewhat- it's like russian roulette, actually. gluten is the same way for me, sometimes i forget i have problems and other times it brings on an asthma attack within 2-3 hours.
It seems that the longer I don't eat those things, the worse my reaction when I do eat them again.
I feel like maybe I should do a week-long trial and eat the offenders at most meals and then see how I feel??? or is that a recipe for disaster?
Your metabolism is lowered when you have a lower heart rate. Other than that metabolism is affected by how much lean body mass you have, so maybe if you're not eating right you lose lean body mass. This will also slow down the metabolism. Isn't your metabolism always going to be at a certain level based on your heart rate and amount of lean body mass? So even if a person has a health problem if they always have a higher heart rate doesn't that also mean their metabolism is going to be faster, only other factor affecting it being lean body mass. The hormones play a role in maintaining or increasing lean body mass, and on the heart rate, but two factors that are always consistant in measuring the metabolism are the heart rate and the level of lean body mass. Is this right?
by gluten intolerance, Matt means that I used to feel awful after eating pasta. Bloated, pain everywhere… But it completely went away. In fact, I would say that the more you eat the better it is. I sometimes kinda feel bloated when undereating (for any reason).
As for candida, I have said that I don't think it was my core problem. I did have tons of candida issues but it was mostly on the low carb diet.
Here's an article on gout:
Accoridng to this article consume foods high in minerals removes uric acid. Green vegetables may be a good example.
Taking in lower protein probably also helps to prevent gout because of the high level of purines.
Can people still get both type I and II diabetes if they eat high rancid PUFA 30% total dietary intake even though they are 10-15% bodyfat? Basically can skinny or ripped people get diabetes? How much more likely are people with a high bodyfat 25-30% + going to get diabetes or other insulin/hormone/blood sugar issues? Can you be in that bodyfat range or higher without getting any of those health issues. If so does nutrition, supplementation, and exercise prevent prevent those health issues in obese individuals?
Just curious, why is it you say you strictly avoid raw vegetables?
Matt, any thoughts on this? I know you said raw & cooked veggies should have some sizable emphasis in the health WF diet – any new thoughts since you've gone bananas?
Anonymous skinny diabetes question –
You can definitely develop type 2 as a lean person. It's not uncommon at all. A good diet and exercise prevent diabetes at any weight. The weight appears to be almost totally inconsequential, particularly subcutaneous fat. Linda Bacon's Health at Every Size is a good read on this topic.
Orange Sarah –
I don't mind raw veggies, but you don't really digest them and pull all that much nutrition from them. But still, I ain't fraid a no salad. As long as there's no PUFA dressing on it.
My interest is calories burned per pound of lean body mass. More specifically, energy used per cell. That's what counts. Gaining muscle raising metabolism is a non-factor. You won't find many centenarian bodybuilders I don't imagine or bulky athletes like NFL running backs making it far beyond 80.
Gain a little muscle sure. But excessive muscle building never made anyone healthier.
Heart rate is another factor, but it's just one factor. I don't think you'll find that a 600-pound obese person with a high resting heart rate to have a high metabolic rate when adjusted for pounds of lean body mass, age, and gender – but a subnormal metabolic rate graded on that curve.
There is no dietary requirement for those foods. It would be no big deal to avoid them. Still, the best solution would be to overcome the sensitivity. That's always the ultimate goal. If it means that much to you to be able to eat those foods, then it's worth giving it a shot. If not, don't eat 'em.
I have noticed a substantial decrease in bronchoconstriction, clearer airway, and clearer nasal passages since going bananas, fyi. I'll write about all this in a few weeks if all is continuing to move in the direction it is currently moving in.
Have bananas cured snoring? Now THAT would be useful to know. Of course, my snoring has gotten worse since I gained weight over the years, so cure #1 is a known quantity.
I just have another though, possibly relevant. I've felt a lot more aggressive lately (last couple months), in all areas of my life. For instance, I have the strongest urge to now on refer to Matt as Dribbles McHershey-Squirt. I'm also feeling more inherently competitive, even for things that (objectively) just don't matter.
Yeah, I'd say my T levels are way up.
I think phytic acid is toxic in large amounts.
I'd like to see any evidence of hunter gatherer groups that do not process their starches in some way, be it soaking, pounding, fermenting.
All cuisines of Africa (the oldest cuisines) I have researched process the heck out of their grains and tubers.
With tubers they gelatinize the cooked starch, much like Polynesians make poi.
The most primitive African groups that eat wild undomesticated tubers chew the cooked (but still tough) plant then spit out the fibrous bits.
Unprocessed whole grains are not a part of any regular diet, for good reason. Eliminating phytates occurs during the same processes that liberate nutrients. Soaking does this. Much as treating corn with lime makes b vitamins more bio available.
Matt, you said: "I don't mind raw veggies, but you don't really digest them and pull all that much nutrition from them. But still, I ain't fraid a no salad. As long as there's no PUFA dressing on it. "
…yet you advocate eating unleavened grains? Surely cooking is a form of breaking down tough cellulose in veggies, similar to processing grains. Grains have tougher cellulose than veggies even. Hence to tendency for cultures to refine their starch source through multi-step processes.
Primitive, undomesticated plants were even tougher and more full of anti-nutrients that modern varieties. But the overwhelming tendency across time and cultures is to refine grains and tubers, be it by pre-digesting the cellulose in them, or removing it all together.
I just wanted to say that I've gator -wrestled. At Gatorland, under controlled circumstances, mind you, and with a gator whose only interest was getting back into the moat and away from me. But still.
> All cuisines of Africa (the oldest cuisines) I have researched process the heck out of their grains and tubers.
How is fufu processed the heck out of? AFAIK it's just cassava (and plantains) pounded in a mortar. I don't think pounding removes the cellulose in any way.
The Hunzas and Sikhs do the least to their grains, and were by far the largest and most robust race in India during the time in which they were studied by McCarrison. They ground wheat berries into a flour, made a quick dough, and rolled them out into chapatis that were only cooked for a couple of minutes on each side, if that. And they ate tons of it – getting at least half their calories from it most of the year.
Paleo blogger Ryan Koch also visited some isolated places in central America (or Mexico, I can't remember where that bastard was at), and came back saying that wheat is definitely not the problem because they eat it all day long, to which I said,
"and let me guess, they don't sprout or ferment it either"
to which he replied, "No, not at all! They just grind it up fresh, cook it for a couple of minutes into a tortilla, and eat it."
But these are just a couple of cases. Obviously fermentation and other processes make the food more digestible, which some believe is the problem, and I could certainly see why.
I think generally the more undigested matter entering the digestive tract the better, especially in light of the modern high-PUFA intake that is so offset by short-chain fatty acid production in the gut. In fact, I came across one piece of literature showing that particle size was a real game changer – the larger the particles swallowed the more short chain fats produced, with an insulin sensitizing and metabolism stimulating effect.
I loved you before, but it's just been taken to a whole new level.
Perhaps your "water allergy" was really just your body's response to water after wrastlin' a gator. I think you two must have swapped some juices, and getting water on your body made you start to tranform into an alligator – like a mermaid getting some water splashed on her.
"Like Roberto, I would be interested in how fat interferes with insulin control (or causes dribble problems – ha ha! I'm not going to let you forget that one.)."
Having dribbling problems is a serious issue that should not be taken lightly. It can be a real hindrance to a man's life and self-esteem !!
Well I made my citations too. Most groups in India eat dosas, which are fermented.
Ryan Koch can say whatever he wants but wheat wasn't available to anyone in central America until very recently. Corn nixtamalization however is the most ancient practice and lab test have shown that it is a process that makes macronutrients more bioavalable from the maiz.
The Trahumara indians subsist almost solely on fermented corn.
The list goes on and on.
You draw a false association between the size of the Sikhs and their diet. If size is the ultimate criteria, we should all eat like the Dutch.
Koreans are the largest and most robust of Asian peoples, yet they eat only white rice.
Look at West Africans, undeniably among the most athletically gifted of all ethnicities. Yet West African cuisine is based on highly processed starch in the form of fufu.
And height is not necessarily a marker of health always. You seem to select certain criteria for what makes the best diet, just like most diet gurus.
I meant Koreans eat white rice to the exclusion of brown rice, not they eat nothing but white rice.
Height and size is not necessarily a marker of health, as the Kitavans prove.
Assuming this comment thread's not dead… can someone comment on that dribbling piss problem? I used to have it years ago such that I would be very self-conscious about wearing khakis and also using the bathroom at my old workplace. Just seemed hard to not make it happen.
For quite a while it seemed like this was not happening, but I was still more controlling about diet. The last few weeks my eating habits have really just been like whatever and it seems like I'm having the dribbling piss problem. Are you sure it's related to saturated fat and not just cheap food in general? I.e. relying on deli food that is maybe more refined flour and PUFAs?
The dribble problem stinks, literally. I can smell myself sometimes. Not good.
I don't think making fun of Matt is connected to high testosterone. I love to make fun of him and last I tested, I am at zero.zero T.
Figured I'd post here rather than the more recent post on the Mattsquatch. How much do tests like Martin's cited matter? I ask because Richard Nikolay posted a little while back his blood panels, and he seemed to be off the charts good in just about everything. Plus he's getting leaner, stronger, and apparently feeling better than he did before becoming paleo: http://tinyurl.com/4vepaj5
So what's the deal? Is all that BS? Is he setting himself up for a hard crash, witha drenal fatigure, or whatever. He links to a Chris Masterjohn article that says, low-carbing may increase fatty liver as you heal. Seems plausible, just gaining fat while RRARFing and healing. I don't know what to make of this. I just know that, from an outside perspective, it seems pretty compelling. The freedom from dietary restriction you aim for is appealing too, though, and something I keep returning to.
Anyway, your thoughts?
Tierney, many have challenged WAPF and paleo dogma about phytic acid, soaking grains and beans. etc. The fact is, Weston Price never said a thing about soaking or sprouting – that is Sally Fallon's dogma and a few people have said she should be calling her organization the Sally Fallon Foundation (SFF) instead of WAPF. Price fed children with poor teeth fresh ground whole wheat and other foods. Robert McCarrison saw the Sikhs eating fresh ground whole wheat. Neither Price nor McCarrison support Sally Fallon or the Paleo food-phobia dogma. Here is an article arguing the benefits from eating phytic acid.
"Neither Price nor McCarrison support Sally Fallon or the Paleo food-phobia dogma."
Unsurprising, seeing how they're dead.
But yeah, the Great Ones didn't ferment their wheat. They ground it up fresh and served it hot. And that worked to totally reverse dental decay and also to improve genetic legacies (like a reverse-Pottenger experiment).
Well I made my citations too."
You sure did. But Matt's citations falsify your assertions. That's how science works, remember?
3. Collect Data
4. Refine hypothesis
You're skipping Step #4, and going straigh to "Ignore data, become more rigid with certainty." Bad move.
"Koreans are the largest and most robust of Asian peoples, yet they eat only white rice."
South Koreans you mean? Yeah, it's called epigenetic legacy. The Chinese had this little thing calle the Cultural Revolution with subjected a whole nation to famines so harsh 40,000,000 died and families cannibalized their own children. That sort of thing leaves a multi-generational mark on a population. Prior to WWII the Chinese were as tall as any American, and they will be again by 2100 AD I imagine. And the Japs just stunt themselves stupid with sushi.
Besides which, that doesn't even prove your point that phytic acid is bad for you. All that proves is that white rice doesn't cause dwarfism. Cool. We already knew that. Matt's points however (about how certain populations ate fresh, whole grain wheat) DO prove that phytic acid doesn't hold you back from growing up tall and strong like a Sikh (or Korean). Which basically proves you wrong.
Brock: "Unsurprising, seeing how they're dead."
I meant their books do not seem to support such ideas. Sally Fallon's ideas are treated as equal to what Weston Price actually practiced or advised. Price seemed more worried about grain freshness, which is an issue many others have raised too. That's why Dr. Fuhrman said not to eat flour, even whole grain, as it quickly goes rancid and loses many nutrients. Clarence Bass, who Matt has discussed, also opposes flours and makes a distinction between it and unbroken or intact grains. Not to say that soaking, sprouting, or fermenting are bad, but you can be healthy with fresh ground flour or even refined grains, IME.
I eat fresh ground whole wheat and Berlin sourdough spelt bread. Also sprouted bread, mainly bagels. I'm not opposed to soaking grains and beans overnight, to reduce cooking time. But if you don't do it, your health is not doomed. They're just "extra credit", at best.
I have no respect for someone just because they are older or formerly obese. I follow people who believe in the possibility of true healing (not side-stepping or covering up symptoms). If you have say insulin resistance, avoiding carbs doesn't fix the root problem. It just puts you in a box forever. My goal is a freedom to eat whole foods and the occasional cheats a couple days a week ((ice cream, cheesecake, dark chocolate, butter keks, tiramisu), while strengthening metabolism and getting healthier. Not many people believe in such healing, but there are examples and those are who I'm interested in reading, not people who deny the possibility of a cure and blindly "diet" forever.
"I'd bet my life that Carl Lewis and Michael Phelps would have a combined total of Zero gold medals if they were eating Jan Kwasniewski's "Optimal Diet." Lance Armstrong's Tour de France titles would total Zero following the "Primal Blueprint." "
Didn't Charles Washington or Gary Taubes say that one of the Olympic marathon winners who ran bare-foot (Bikila?) ate fairly low carb? Any way, such exercise is not healthy or natural. Marathons, triathlons, and cross-country races break the body down. Just look at the builds of the top athletes or read about Armstrong's recurring cancers and injuries. I think Mark Sisson and Art DeVany are right to criticize cardio exercise. Sprinters have a more powerful and aesthetic build than marathoners, triathletes, or bicycle racers, IMO.
to be fair sprinters only look like that because of lifting weights. your glutes and hamstrings will get a little bigger from sprinting but thats it.
Again, Fufu isn't necessarily processed a lot.
> And the Japs just stunt themselves stupid with sushi.
Sushi makes you short? How so? Japanese don't eat that much sushi anyways and ate much less of it in the past. Your theories are seriously lacking.
"to be fair sprinters only look like that because of lifting weights. your glutes and hamstrings will get a little bigger from sprinting but thats it."
This has not been my experience. I haven't lifted a weight yet and I'm up 13 lbs of lean mass in February alone. Just good food and sprints seem to be enough.
"Sushi makes you short? How so? Japanese don't eat that much sushi anyways and ate much less of it in the past. Your theories are seriously lacking."
I was using sushi as a stand-in for Japanese cuisine generally. The Japanese diet does not lend itself to growth, either vertical or muscular. The Sumo wrestlers are the exception that prove the rule. Japanese that switch to an Western-style diet can grow just as tall as any other population, and Sumo wrestlers are of course monstrously large.
My larger point was that the South Koreans are taller than other Asians (at the moment) because of diet and epigenetic legacy, and not because of anything related to phytic acid.
as i said you will gain some muscle from sprinting, especially since you're using the biggest muscles in the body, adds a fair bit of lean mass. you'd look like this guy and not dwain chambers
Don't discount genetics in how someone is built/shaped. I had a friend that was bigger and more muscular than me, while he didn't work out at all and I lifted weights all the time. When he finally started lifting, he became HUGE.
Another example is a bodybuilder (whose name escapes me right now) that when he started bodybuilding as a kid, didn't know anything about it. So he just ran a little and hit the heavy bag and he destroyed his competition. People were aghast when he explained his training protocol for his first contest.
Keep in mind that the people that are most genetically gifted in sprinting, have certain genetics, so as you work up the ranks from grade school, high school, college, pro/Olympic, the genetically elite battle it out at the highest levels and that is why you see most of those guys built very similarly. Genetics and similar activities produce that body.
Will Is RIGHT ON. Genetics play a big role in how big you can get etc. I have seen it over and over. Hard work will do miracles, but I think there is a 'glass ceiling' on just how musclular you can get. IMO
Thanks everyone for your thoughts on phytic acid. It's very interesting. I do usually soak beans because I notice a huge difference in how I digest them (but I think that is due to something other than phytic acid). With grains, I can totally believe that the issue is freshness, and not nutrient inhibitors.
BTW, the bodybuilder that I mentioned was Eddie Robinson, but I couldn't find the article that talked about his first contest. I probably read it in one of the HIT books that I have.
Amen Lady H! :-)
I think genes explain almost nothing.
I grew up on plenty of white flour, sugar, lowfat milk, and antibiotics. My genes are the same whether I grew up eating those foods or the much better foods I eat now. Yet if I ate meat and potatoes and raw milk growing up, I would look completely different than I do today, with a different athletic capacity, even with the exact same genes.
I do think inheritance has an influence on peoples' growth and body shape–in the sense of the nutrient stores and bacterial populations inherited by the child during gestation and breastfeeding. But when so many young people today look nothing like the older generations in their families, how influential is genetic inheritance, really?
That last part should read, "how important is genetic inheritance, really?"
You miss the point Mike.
If you are undernourished as a kid, you might not grow very tall but if you are well nourished, you could grow much taller. But there is an upper limit to that. You can't eat like a pig and expect to grow to 8 ft tall if your genetic potential is 6 ft.
People have a genetic disposition to height that extends the range from dwarfs to giants, like many NBA players. There are ranges in intelligence, as well as ability to gain muscle mass.
Yes, training will increase muscle mass in a person, but the upper limit is dependent on their genetic upper limit. You could put a young Woody Allen on the best diet, training protocol, AND drugs, and he will NEVER reach the muscular development of an Arnold Schwarzenegger. Ellington Darden talks in great length about genetics.
Numbers don't mean all that much. In fact, in most cases when cholesterol falls like that one should assume a person is dying!
But not in Martin's case when you see testosterone levels doubling. That indicates to me a rise in metabolism.
Nikoley doesn't eat a Paleo diet. He trains and then does huge carb feedings. He mentioned recently that he eats stuff like pizza once a week. These "cheats" make all the difference in the world.
If someone told me they were going to try a low-carb diet, I'd say,
"Sure, just make sure to do periodic carb refeeds if you are going to try it, and don't keep doing it if your health starts declining."
There's a huge difference between the Atkins diet and low-carb Paleo and the carb cycling concepts of Faigin, Ferris, Body Opus, Leangains, Lyle McDonald, and countless others.
Thats assuming you could get a woody allen type to train with the focus and intensity of an arnie. As for as im concerned, that is all that is required for body building purposes besides decent nutrition.
Interesting thoughts about carb cycling. I tried Ferris' protocol in December for a couple weeks, including the Saturday big-eats. I hated it. I felt bloated and low-energy on those days and lousy for a couple days afterwards. And I was hungry by the end of the week. It sucked.
I also gained weight throughout the whole experience, and not the good kind. Measurements went up too.
Now that I'm doing PACE sprints however I am carb cycling quite unconsciously. It wasn't a part of any strategy or tactic on my part, just following my hunger. It's just that on mornings I do my workouts I'm ravenous for carbs at breakfast and lunch. Then my hunger usually subsides on my off days (not today though).
I think that's all normal. The whole point of PACE is to deplete glycogen, and then you body wants to replace that, and carbs are the best way to do that. But it's more of a "demand driven" carb cycling, rather than a thing that you are consciously doing.
And eating less on the off days is "dieting", but again it's demand-driven dieting. I'm not counting calories, or scoring Weight Watchers points, and on days when I'm hungry I eat. But again my hunger correctly signals less food, and I've been losing body fat pretty continuously for over a month now.
I think there's a good distinction here. You do benefit from "carb cycling" and "dieting", but you can't just decide to do them. That's putting the cart before the horse. When it's time to diet and to carb cycle is something your body decides, not you. You just have to feed yourself, and sleep, and maybe one day do PACE sprints, until your body makes the decision.
Riles, are you saying that you could reach the development of Arnold in his prime?
His biceps extend past the crook of his arm (long muscle bellies). His chest covers 1/2 of his torso (from collar bone to waist).
Compare that to this pic of Tom Venuto…
His chest only covers about 1/4 to a 1/3 of his torso (taking into account where his waistband would be if he had the same type of shorts that Arnold has on). Even Venuto, who is an accomplished bodybuilder doesn't have the development of Arnold and won't be able to attain his development because of his genetic potential.
The magazines will tell you that genetics don't matter because they want you to keep plugging away at it, buying their supplements, magazines, etc. The pro bodybuilders are the genetic elite. Sorry to say, but it's true.
Bah! Then the rumours that Woody Allen is playing Bane in the new Christopher Nolan Batman movie probably aren't true. BANE!!!!!!
arnold has a particularly short torso. his elbow is almost at his hips. this + big frame and muscles = look huge. i remember someone saying, maybe it was here, that arnold said squatting was primarily lower back for him due to his long limbs, has to be way bent over for balance
i have a slim build but really long limbs, my elbow is at my hips. i look taller and heavier than i actually am.
Sorry robert, LOL!
Here are some pics of Arnold as a teenager…
But yeah, the Great Ones didn't ferment their wheat."
'Great ones' is not a scientific label. If you are going to adhere to the scientific model, please do so.
"You sure did. But Matt's citations falsify your assertions. That's how science works, remember?"
Matt draws a connection between height and whole wheat that is based on assumptions. There is no scientific proof that the Sikhs are tall because they eat whole wheat chipatis.
3. Collect Data
4. Refine hypothesis"
Matt did not follow this. He simply stated:
"Sikh's are tall. Sikhs eat unleavened bread. Therefore Sikhs are tall because they eat unleavened bread."
This is an assumption.
"Koreans are the largest and most robust of Asian peoples, yet they eat only white rice."
"South Koreans you mean? Yeah, it's called epigenetic legacy."
Which could apply to Sikhs too, yes?
"The Chinese had this little thing calle the Cultural Revolution"
Never heard of it, thanks for the lecture.
"Prior to WWII the Chinese were as tall as any American,"
And they ate a ton of white rice too.
"and they will be again by 2100 AD I imagine."
still eating heaps of white rice
"And the Japs just stunt themselves stupid with sushi."
Citations please? Lol. Mr. Science Man.
"Besides which, that doesn't even prove your point that phytic acid is bad for you."
I believe phytic acid can have some uses. But I also believe that amylase has a purpose and inhibiting its purpose is not always a good plan.
"Matt's points however (about how certain populations ate fresh, whole grain wheat) DO prove that phytic acid doesn't hold you back from growing up tall and strong like a Sikh (or Korean)."
All it proves is that one CAN be healthy including whole grains. It doesn't prove that whole grains are preferable to refined, treated grains.
The healthiest populations of the world eat refined grains. And tubers. Only small pockets eat whole unrefined grains. Polynesians before white colonization were among the most robust people in the world on a diet of poi. The list goes on. West Africans (fufu is refined. It is gelatinized, pounded grain. Not necessarily fermented, but gelatinized. SMALL particles.)
"which basically proves you wrong"
there's nothing to prove wrong. Eating a high phytic acid diet was what started my health woes. Then I tried paleo, then I went back to refined starches and my health and physique and athleticism are better than ever.
Sikh body composition? All the pictures I have seen they are tubby, not lean and muscular like the Kitavans. Height isn't the only marker of health.
Fufu is pounded grain, it has undergone gelatinization. The particles are very small.
Thanks for Arnold link. I have to say, his arms are freaking amazing.. but I did not detect much ab definition? Why So?
Sikh body composition:
Kerala fishermen body comp (fermented dosas, parboiled rice):
"'Great ones' is not a scientific label. If you are going to adhere to the scientific model, please do so."
Got under your skin, did I? "Great Ones" is a term used by people who don't have a maypole up their ass.
""Sikh's are tall. Sikhs eat unleavened bread. Therefore Sikhs are tall because they eat unleavened bread."
This is an assumption."
No, dude, it's not.
First off, you completely fucked up understanding Matt's point. Matt's point (more concisely) is as follows:
"Sikh's are not nutrient deficient. Sikhs eat unleavened bread. Therefore unleavened bread doesn't cause nutrient deficiency."
Second, that's not an "assumption." It's a valid deductive argument based on the empirical evidence of Robert McCarrison's research.
"Eating a high phytic acid diet was what started my health woes."
No offense, but I suspect there was a lot more wrong with your diet than it's phytic acid content. I wouldn't even put that in the Top 5. And I say that not because I think lowly of your nutrition habits, but rather because I know just how damned hard it is to eat well in the modern world. I'm guessing the bigger problems were-
2. Lack of fiber
3. Lack of fresh foods
4. Lack of minerals/vitamins (VERY mildly made worse by phytic acid, but mostly because most modern foods suck)
5. Lack of healthy gut flora
"Eating a high phytic acid diet was what started my health woes. Then I tried paleo, then I went back to refined starches and my health and physique and athleticism are better than ever."
So much for being scientific. This reminds me of Aajonus arguing that he "developed angina at age 15 on pasteurized dairy", as if that was the only food he was eating or the worst offender! Refined grains are fine, unless eaten to exclusion of nutritious foods. I eat unbleached un-enriched bagels and breads with no oils or HFCS (hard to find, but not impossible). I also eat fresh-ground whole grains, sprouted, and fermented grains at various times. Whatever appeals to me.
Your photo of the Sikhs was modern people most likely. But to use the same logic, some of the people who Weston Price studied were soft and had some fat on their mid-section. According to paleo dogma, that's a reason to reject anything in their diet that doesn't fit their belief about healthy eating. You raised a valid point that height is not the best criteria for health, but body fat levels aren't either. Sure, we can look at Western people and say that obesity is correlated with an illness, but maybe in a group that was eating well or had less stress there would be no correlation. You can't say whether obesity causes a disease or is the effect.
Also, adding to what Brock said, Stephan posted an article a couple years ago about how unleavened whole wheat reduced Vitamin D levels by like 25%. Combine that with a vegan diet or one without a source of Vitamin D (like sunlight or sardine bones or fortified food) and D-ficiency is likely. I suspect this effect can explain why Peter (hyperlipid) ends up with gluten problems after eating a diet where he describes snacks like whole grain bread, p-nut butter, and bananas. The error is to go from that experience to saying "wheat is evil" and it's just as bogus and illogical to say "whole grains are evil" – even if you qualify it by saying they're good soaked or fermented or sprouted or leavened. You can be healthy and avoid deficiencies even while eating a ton of whole grains, unless you eat egg whites and skim milk and chicken breast like Dean Ornish and Jack LaLanne and other delusional people suggest.
fine particles, that is true, but does that remove the phytic acid? (it's not a rhetoric question.) Still, fufu is made from cassava, yams, plantains and sometimes corn (which was introduced to Africa by Europeans). Not just and not traditionally from "grains." Just check wikipedia or your local African food store.
Even the women look more muscular than me, wow.
should have been
The real reason people started sprouting grains: most grains except for rice contain the enzyme amylase, which converts starch to sugar. When soaking and sprouting, the grain undergoes a process called "malting". As one person commented on a little show I watched about the history of cereal grains, the sprouted grains would have tasted like Sugar Smacks compared to the bland gruel the early Neolithic people started to eat. That's right, they did it for the sugar, for taste reasons.
While many cultures have developed techniques to neutralize toxins, such as the careful preparation of cassava, that was only when they learned of very visible harmful effects. People can thrive on grains, because grains do not contain any harmful toxins. Lectins are not an issue, as they are mostly destroyed by heat.
"Phytic acid" is certainly a fraud in the paleo world, considering that nuts and seeds are often higher in the phytic acid than grains. Flaxseeds and almonds are very high, yet the use of nut butters, nut flours and nut milks remains widespread.
Yeah, my husbands testosterone levels have increased since switching to this type of diet. He is also using cold showers and that also seems to be working.
What was his before and after estradiol levels????
Yeah, I believe it. My free testosterone levels went from around 100 to the 500’s in just a couple months of RRARFing. Still not in perfect range for my age, but it’s a hell of an improvement thus far.
Don’t turn to pharmaceutical products or hormone therapies immediately. There are safer and easier possibilities that don’t produce side effects. Your body can be stimulated to boost testosterone levels naturally, as long as you know how to pick a good dietary supplement.