In Diet RecoveryI recently added some new content about the importance of stressing exercise intensity more than duration for achieving metabolic adaptations that help with achieving a better ratio of body fat to lean body mass. Strictly from a body composition point of view that’s neato and all, but there’s strong evidence that doing short bursts of hard exercise has very unique, and potentially unmatched health benefits.
The first time I ever paid attention to the term ?oxygen debt? was during my review of some of Scott Abel’s stuff. I didn’t count, but I’m pretty sure in his 5-Day MET DVD series he says ?oxygen debt? while gasping for air in between sets at least 372 times. It seems kind of important to the guy, who I consider to be perhaps the world’s leading expert on exercise physiology due to his blend of personal experience, training experience, and extensive academic pursuits of the subject.
Another thing that jumped out at me was hearing some of the verbiage used by Vince DelMonte, including the term ?oxygen debt. DelMonte claims to have had minimal success with building muscle on various programs in the past, mentioning that he was referred to in his youth as ?Skinny Vinny,? but that he finally found what works. And lo and behold DelMonte does a blend of functional training and weightlifting at maximum intensity to create an ?oxygen debt.
The theme is there again in Jon Gabriel’s work ? the idea of doing very high bursts of exercise as if something is chasing you ? and its striking ability to change the body’s metabolism to become less ‘thrifty,? making your body ?want to be thin,? and lowering the weight set point for automatic, hunger and craving-free weight loss.
Clarence Bass, Rachel and Alwyn Cosgrove, Dr. Richard Bernstein, Sisson, DeVany, Big Chief ? the list goes on and on. And now I’m talking about it too, as I have had substantial improvements in body composition since adopting Abel’s concept of doing what could only be called, confusingly, ?functional, high-intensity, interval strength training.
But my interest in the potential health benefits far exceeds my interest in using it as a tool to look like a man-beast when speaking on Metabolism at the 2011 Weston A. Price Foundation Wise Traditions Conference in Dallas this coming November (yes, you read that correctly). Perusing through the general concept of oxygen indebtedness is pretty exciting as it pertains to improving cardiovascular health, increasing functionality in old age, improving the stress response and adrenal health, lowering inflammation, improving asthma, and raising the metabolism overall.
I used to look at exercise like researcher Ray Peat looks at exercise ? through a narrow and short-sighted mirror. Exercise = Stress = Bad, therefore, enjoy some nice walks and a little stretching and eat the food (ETF). While it’s true that in today’s day and age most exercise pursuits end in tragic failure due to poor information, poor accompanying nutrition, and extreme efforts in pursuit of unrealistic and more importantly, unnatural goals ? that doesn’t mean that the right kind of exercise, done intelligently as part of a much broader set of healthy practices, attitudes, and nutrition, can’t be a powerful tool. It very well may be, and the oxygen debt, although it’s just one narrow element of the overall picture, could be the most important tool there is.
To begin with, let’s talk about ol? Ray Peat since I brought him up. One of Peat’s primary platforms is the belief that maintaining the proper level of cellular respiration and oxygenation is one of the most important and vital elements of aging well and avoiding degenerative disease. This is done, according to Ray Peat’s research, by keeping thyroid activity up (this, in turn, makes sure there is adequate production of hormones like testosterone and progesterone which oppose estrogen, the ultimate anti-respiratory hormone in his view). To this I would agree.
But an interesting connection is that thyroid activity and oxygen consumption exist in tandem. As we age, thyroid activity usually falls and oxygen consumption falls with it. Interestingly, one reason this may take place is due to falling lung capacity. As we age, our lung capacity diminishes, and oxygen uptake falls substantially. The end result is reduced mitochondrial activity/cellular energy production and a much higher chance of getting cancer, stroke, heart disease, neurodegenerative diseases, and all our disease faves.
This general process can be reversed, and while a whole foods overfeeding attempt like RRARF may very well force the body to adapt by increasing cellular energy production and oxygenation via thyroid encouragement, there’s no doubt that the right kind of exercise can do it too.
As Al Sears writes in his 2010 book P.A.C.E.:
?Manfred von Ardenne discovered that your cells produce more energy when you practice short bursts of intense exertion ? a capacity you build with my PACE program. This improves the way your organs use oxygen, keeping them younger longer. By keeping your routine focused on short, intense bursts? you send waves of life-giving oxygen through every cell in your body.
Interestingly, Sears hints at what many of us have experienced firsthand, that endurance exercise has the opposite effect ? giving up lung capacity and fast-twitch musculature for doing maximal effort work, and instead slowing down the metabolism as much as possible so that less oxygen is used performing the endurance task. These are horrible and highly unwanted adaptations akin to starving yourself. More from Weird Al Sears:
?Aerobics, jogging and marathon running are low-intensity, long-duration exercises. The Harvard study clearly shows that this kind of exercise increases your risk of heart disease and death.
And here’s why: When you exercise for long periods at a low to medium intensity, you train your heart and lungs to get smaller in order to conserve energy and increase efficiency at low intensity.
So it’s kind of ironic that one could improve the oxygenation of their cells by striving to do exercise that’s hard enough to incur an oxygen debt (using more than you’re taking in and having to compensate for it later by panting hard or as Scott Abel says, ‘sucking in the room?), and lower overall stress hormone exposure by subjecting oneself to something that mimics a life-threatening emergency event and spikes stress hormones to the stratosphere.
But hey, just like forcing the body to adapt to burn more calories and expend less energy by stuffing your cakehole, short bursts of hard exercise (lasting 15 seconds to 4 minutes followed by recovery before you repeat) enough to make you really winded appears to induce some highly beneficial metabolic adaptations as well ? with a huge cardiopulmonary bonus. It requires no equipment unless you want it to, workouts contain 7-20 minutes of total expenditure (not including rest time) in Sears’s program for example (done 3 times per week), and it’s much easier on your joints, tendons, and cardiovascular system than endurance exercise or weight training (although I do believe that weight training with lighter loads like that used by Scott Abel can easily be incorporated into the oxygen debt theme without too much collateral damage).
?Oxygen is the basic fuel your cells need to keep moving. When you’re jogging, your body can inhale enough oxygen to keep that activity going for quite a while. But when you’re sprinting fast, the demand for oxygen is so intense you can’t go for even a minute. As you approach maximal exertion, the amount of oxygen required to keep you going will exceed the amount you’re taking in ? that’s the point when you begin accumulating an oxygen debt.
You may wonder why an oxygen debt is important. You might even think that pushing your body to that point is counter-intuitive. After all, why would you want to starve your body of oxygen?
The answer lies in your body’s ?adaptive response.
Think about what those words mean for a moment? an adaptive response is a change your body makes after confronting a challenge. If you don’t give your body new challenges, it won’t make these changes. In other words, you won’t grow or progress.
That’s one of the reasons why aerobics, cardio and long-distance running are not the best options for your long-term health. No progress will be made to build back lung capacity because you are not challenging your current lung capacity. In fact, because you are ?preprogrammed? to lose capacity with age, if you don’t train your body to make changes in response to challenges, you’ll actually start sliding backwards.
But when you give up these long, boring workouts, you can change your body’s experience with exertion.
When you achieve oxygen debt, your body responds. Plateaus are broken. Changes are made. First and foremost, your body reacts by increasing your lung volume and boosting your heart’s output.
By doing those kind of activities you actually ?ask? your body to make those changes. And in response, it does. You can train your body to make any kind of change you want. If you want small, tight lungs and decreased cardiac output, then keep jogging.
In the experiment one twin ran 50-yard sprints for 16 weeks and the other ran 10 miles for 16 weeks. Neither were asked to alter their diets. His experiment, as well as all the extensive?data he’s compiled with his patients, thoroughly disproves all of the following myths:
1) You can’t build muscle and burn fat at the same time
2) You must lift weights to gain substantial amounts of muscle
3) Women can’t gain muscle easily
4) Women can’t achieve 10% body fat levels without counting calories
5) You must overeat to gain substantial amounts of muscle
6) You must restrict calories to lose substantial amounts of body fat
7) You must exercise more than 30 minutes per week to burn substantial amounts of body fat
How to RAISE YOUR METABOLISM.
"you train your heart and lungs to get smaller"…uh?
That's physiological bullshit by Sears.
Has he never heard of Runner's Heart?
hot damn- matt stone at wise traditions. wasn't planning to go again, but maybe i will now.
be good to meet you, buddy. fingers crossed.
and oh yeah, oxygen debt is the shit. the abel stuff has worn me down, so i'm taking a cue from my body's demands and not exercising for a bit, until i'm itching to get back. the band work in particular for speed seems to get me huffing and puffing.
man-beast in 2011!
Sitting here listening to the hum of an O2 machine tethered to my terminally ill (lung cancer – Non-smoking related) mother and read this.
Thyroid replacement meds. Check.
Long-term HRT. Check.
Lots of steady state cardio before becoming ill. Check.
Consuming SAD (plus soy b/c of lactose intolerance). Check.
The perfect storm.
Matt, do you think that lack of lung capacity may be one reason that smoking is so strongly correlated with cancer?
MadMUHHH, yes, popups do suck.
Re: the video, is it my imagination or is the long-duration exercise twin rounder in the face than the short-duration exercise twin? It's not "carb face", so it must be "jogger's phiz".
Veiled Glory: Sorry to hear about your mother. :( I've been in a cancer ward and that brought a very strong image to my mind.
a long time silent reader ( me ) leaves the cave…
What is so fascinating about the Abel stuff? These weird overcomplicated 5-days-a-week body destruction programs…
Did gymnastics and lots of "functional training" ( sounds cool, but… ) for years – it gave me real strength, but my tendons and joints are destroyed. F… clapping push ups or 100 burpees in 5 minutes. Get on a good rowing machine and head for a good 500m time. Muscles? I'm on a Body By Science routine for 12 months now – and making great gains, in a minimum of time. But the best of it: Your body is SAFE. For me it's HIT instead of MET ( but real HIT is MET ). Enough ;-)
Sears is definitely far from mistake-free in his assessment of the whole picture (a tater hater for sure, but I forgive him on that since he has blond jerry curls). But he is probably right on about exercise with low heart rate variability like running at a steady pace to be highly dangerous.
I have found the volume and duration of MET to be way beyond what any normal human can tolerate. It's totally unrealistic for most people and way beyond any normal person' league. My fascination is not so much with the training itself which is designed to be hardcore and achieve maximum hypertrophy at all costs, but the intelligence behind the design of it itself – and how it can be applied to real humans.
I doubt someone challenging themselves with a jumprope, some bodyweight squats, resistance band stuff, and core exercise or two is going to run into the same joint and tendon issues. And the metabolic benefits don't lie as much in his excessive volume (which is probably counterproductive) but the interval style and some other idiosyncrasies like balance movements and movements that require skill.
I had that thought.
Doing some testing. The good news is that it shouldn't appear every time you visit the site.
I watched Total Recall a few weeks ago, and I totally missed the message about oxygen debt. Thanks, Matt!
if youre speaking there, i am coming! i dont live to far from dallas!
I don't think you've got the right Al Sears on the 180M blog. The one with the blond jerry curls (from Fat Head the movie) is different than that bearded guy.
Ok, I propose a Matt Stone support/cheer squad group to attend WT, anyone in?
Even though YOU and Antonio and even Chief (where is he?) told me NO SPIN, to be honest the thing you are describing is exactly what my teacher does, quick hard sprints, recover, sprint etc. Then off the bike to 'suck in the room' with pylometrics, weights, pushups etc. For an hour. I love it and I think it is MET and HIT and FUN.
I agree, what about runner's enlarged heart or is that a myth?
Veiled glory: so sorry, I can understand that you are most likely experiencing your own 'perfect storm' of emotions.
Copeland: Welcome! Sorry to hear that your joints are a mess.. overdoing anything seems to cause that as many former runners are now current knee/hip replacement limpers. Not all, many IMO.
ok, later everyone
the hag of the century
Matt, it's so cool that you write about stuff that I had already been thinking about or had inklings to and then you sort them out.
To add to the theme from this post, from Super Joints from Pavel, this is about Academcian Amosov…
"Academician Amosov had not always been a human dynamo. The fitness
superstar started out as a retired Red Army lieutenant colonel in his late fifties with
the World War II behind him, a spare tire in the front, and an assortment of
diseases. The turning point was the day when Amosov formulated and put to
practice his now famous t h e o ry of limit loads, which I will cover in detail in my
upcoming book on Russian natural health practices. One of the corner stones of
the theory is the belief that a human organism has a great ability to regenerate
itself. Use?intense use! ?is the key."
Body by Science does have some very strong points to it. One being exactly what you said that it is designed specifically to give you maximum excursion with minimal force & time. Great for rehabbing, elderly, safety, but does not look like something in could continue for say decades.
Oh Matt, The Body by Science book has a very interesting theory on "oxygen debt" which the author Dr. McGuff wraps into lactate, mitochondria growth, and what he calls the "Cascade Effect". Have you read it?
Copeland, not all MET type training has to be hard on the joints. Clapping pushups are plyometric and are tough on the body in many ways.
Using movements that at circular in nature are generally much easier than end-limit type movements as well. Think riding a bike easier on the knees than running as one example.
Also, the same repetitive movement repeated over and over can ultimately result in overuse injuries. Larry Scott, former Mr. Olympia, recommends changing exercises very frequently to avoid this. An example he likes to use is how people get tennis elbow even though a tennis racket is relatively light…it's the repeated motion over time that becomes injurious.
"maximum excursion" LOL
I guess it could do that as well…mentally!
Matt, your presence at Wise Traditions next year will no doubt be a breath of fresh air. Please do share a bit on the failures of low-carb dieting. Apparently, Nora Gedgaudas spoke last year quite convincingly about how humans are meant to run off ketones. It would be great for folks to hear the other side of that story.
I've been geeking out on Abel's stuff lately. Very interesting, and I have to admit his attitude about health and fitness is a real selling point for me. It's not often you see someone in the industry for that many years without succumbing to group think syndrome. Abel definitely likes to think outside the box and I have to appreciate that.
I did some MET training yesterday and it kicked my butt. Meant to do it today but frankly EVERY SINGLE MUSCLE IN MY BODY IS SORE! So yeah. I'm gonna take a break for a couple days.
Gazelle – Ha, that's totally him. He looks a lot different without the Jerry curl and beard instead of the Pierre stache.
One of the key components to Sears's program is that he limits the total exertion period. At high intensity levels he believes that 15 minutes is enough to deplete most people of all glycogen, and after that point you start relying mostly on fat burning, which he says is a big no-no. Now, you might rest a half hour to go 15 minutes at full speed, which would be a 45 minute session in total, but I think he's onto something with the quick cutoff for sure.
But a class is not as good as doing it solo and paying close attention to your own biofeedback. You need to start each interval when you are rested, and only your body tells you when you are rested. Then you go until you reach your maximum threshhold. In a class you tend to hold back knowing that another round is about to come up. This training is more about testing your own threshhold and progressing it.
For major muscular growth and development beyond what is normal and natural it requires a lot of volume which takes a long, long time. That's why his sessions are 75-90 minutes (and where mortals meet their demise). But without the need for hardcore hypertrophy, there's no need to go to such lengths of duration. There's also no need to lift heavy weights and strain joints and tendons – or risk for a person who is a newbie to hurt themselves using poor form. Plus, doing functional exercise it's hard to go to the point where your cardiopulmonary system is taxed to the max before the muscles involved in those exercises tire (unless you are doing burpees or jump squats or something like that).
Most people would do best doing mini MET (like 15 minutes of total exertion with lots of rest in between intervals), or doing Sears-esque training on standard cardio equipment or with a jumprope combined with callasthenics on off days for good functional exercise (which is precisely what Sears recommends).
I'm just going to try to keep it simple and straightforward and see if I can get people out of the "what the primitives did" mindset. That is their biggest stumbling block preventing them from doing the precise things they need to do to tangibly improve their health.
If it's all about oxygen dept, then why not take the "easy" way out and get a friend or family member to back strangle you 3 times a week? If your short on friends or family, you can even hang yourself from a tree until your about to pass out.
You get all the benefits of short bursting stress and "sucking the room" but not all the sweat that comes along with it.
Intresting post, I can see where it is coming from.
I am boggling over his extreme makeover here.
Matt, I dare you to wear a pierre mustache to WT 2011.
I was just thinking a Vote for Pedro t-shirt and moon boots to go along with the Eat the Food! theme.
Yeah, I was wondering about free-diving and what impact that would have on metabolism. Not the same cardio effects, but the pulmonary effects would certainly be there.
Actually, maybe I'll just make everyone start using a lactic acid meter after exercise.
I may make that dallas conference… my brother just moved there, and i have always wanted to go to one, i will eat all the dessert before any of them can have any!
Veiled Glory – What kind of treatment is your mother in? Why do you think that your mother is "terminally ill"? Do you know that a lot of patients who were labeled "terminally ill" cured themselves?
Nice Troy. I was christened at the best barbecue joint in the area on a recent trip over X-mas. Pops lives there.
We can sneak out together when they start passing around the beet kvass and kraut and go murder some brisket and mashed taters together.
Malpaz you can come too.
Rob, I'll buy you lunch but you have to out arm-wrestle me. Same for Jonathan.
Sorry you'll have to stay at the conference and man the 180 booth. I'm going to order you a custom made 180 cheerleader outfit to piss John off if he happens to show up.
Wow, all I had to see was the word "Oxygen" and the top of the bulging eyes and I knew exactly what movie that picture was from- yack!
Hey Matt, for some reason I thought of you when I saw this video- should make ya laugh yet be somewhat relevant.
Matt: Yeah, but in class, if it gets too hard I stop and rest.. so I am not mindlessly following her lead but I do see your point. If you did your comb over correctly I would not see it. (One of my mom's favorite jokes, sorry. It would go like this "I see your point but if you combed your hair differently I wouldn't" She was a hoot.)
Will: GOOD stuff!
OAW: Could you be a little more insensitive? I could go on but I think that about covers it for you.
And Yes, I will wear the 180 cheerleading outfit and man the booth. Gosh!
Vote for Summer.
organism: most likely Veiled Glory's mom is on a nasal cannula, which does not give 100% o2.
It appears as though you've never lost a loved one to a terminal illness, get some compassion and come down off your soap box, I for one don't give a crap how you would treat a cancer patient.
So maybe you (Org whole) can fly over and gather up Old Ray Peat and put on your Superman outfits, of course, you are Robin the Boy Wonder. Then you can fly at the speed of light to save cancer paitents in stage four the world over.
I cannot help but wonder if you ever have human contact.
End of this discussion.
I assume the oxygen debt thing is why so many people do get initial benefits from doing a cardio workout. If they are really out of shape they are sucking in the room at a brisk walk. When I first started snow shoeing, I was sucking in the outside just doing a tiny hill in my backyard. I've actually backed off from doing it, even though I enjoyed it as my body was adapting quickly.
I think the key is the short intervals. Tons of distance runners use HIIT and know about oxygen training. The difference is they run 1 mile intervals as fast as they can while jogging between. They've probably depleted their glycogen , at least according to Weird Al, after the first interval. Serious ultrathonners can do a dozen of these standing on their heads.
I'm just re-reading Cosgroves book and I always really appreciate her approach as she's a reformed runner. To me, running is the obvious and natural thing to do and I think some of the running-bashing here is kind of offensive and obnoxious to be perfectly honest. I've been just doing her warm-ups in the morning and have been sucking in the room. It takes me a half an hour to get through, but I have been resting when I get too winded.
I agree, that MET can be really tough on the body, especially for a beginner. That's one of things I appreciate about Cosgrove's book is that she has designed the program to build your fitness over time, rather than throwing you into the deep end of the pool.
Jenny I agree, her routines are Tough! esp when I am doing them in my small room with no gym floor etc.
I find I do better in a group classroom setting. I can walk alone, but doing shit like that I need others suffering with me. Call me quirky.
Deb: I too find that I have trouble sticking to a routine when left to my own devices. I like sleeping and lying on the couch watching movies, too much. I do stupid things to reward myself such as watching a classic movie in the evening if I do my workout during the day.
I've been doing the routines barefoot, making a concentrated effort to land on my forefoot instead of my heels. I'm on my carpeted floor which has a pad underneath. Changing to a forefoot strike for walking and running has done wonders for my plantar fasciitis. I still have to be careful when standing long periods on very hard floors. I wear my Doc Martens or my clogs because they offer some decent cushioning and support. I haven't worn my running shoes in a really long time.
When the ground thaws, I'm looking forward to doing some routines outside on the grass, since I've noticed huge benefits both in terms of training and mood by doing things outside and avoiding the gym environment.
"Actually maybe I'll just start making everyone use a lactic acid meter after exercise."
I don't get that – I mean I know that it's supposedly lactic acid that makes your muscles hurt after a workout, but…
I did burpees yesterday til I thought I would throw up, which turned out to be 4 sets of 8-10, probably pretty poor form, but I was definitely sucking in the room by the time I finished. Not sore yet. Is soreness related to oxygen debt? Should I be looking for it, or avoiding it?
Jenny, I understand but you must also understand that the worst health problems I've ever seen were a direct result of running, and I feel compelled to balance out everyone else's infatuation with it to even the score. If you think I'm down on running, you should read Al Sears's book.
But the bottom line is that the adaptions the body goes through to run more effectively are all highly negative for health and even more so for body composition. Even eating a perfect, nutritious, whole foods diet and running gives the Tarahumara Indians bodies like Rodney Dangerfield by the time they hit middle age. That's the best case scenario.
Yeah, running (or cycling, or hiking, or stairmasters or whatever) at first might be good for some people, but then the body adapts to the running and it's all downhill from there.
The only thing healthy about running is if you enjoy it, and the general expenditure of energy and movement of the lymph from doing exercise of any kind.
But that is another matter entirely.
I do many things that aren't healthy because I enjoy them, which is the most important thing.
What I'm fighting to do is inform the people out there running who don't like running and do it solely because they think it will make them healthier and their bodies look better, which simply isn't true.
oxygen debt… so can I just hold my breath? Maybe pranayama can do the same as intense excerise if it's about that?
The burpee is a pretty tough exercise, but anything that involves both the upper and lower body like that working together is the most oxygen-demanding. People can always make it simpler by going back and forth between pushups and bodyweight squats. What some people run into is having their muscles tire before their lungs have really been challenged, so it helps to rest the lower body while doing the upper and rest the upper while doing the lower. Plus, it's safer.
Lactic acid is not what makes muscles sore, that is a myth.
Muscles get sore from small tears in the muscle tissue from overloading them. Burpees do not do that, which is why burpees, aside from their metabolic effect, do not trigger muscle growth (while weight training where you pretty much slaughter the muscle does).
Lactic acid is produced when you get to a certain level of oxygen deprivation. Lactic acid supposedly triggers a big increase in growth hormone for improved vitality, muscle growth, fat loss, and so forth.
They make lactic acid meters that some endurance athletes use to see what level their running session was at (like a heart rate meter is used). They work just like glucose meters. I was just making fun of myself though. Not serious about that!
I suspect that the actual muscles themselves do not become very oxygen-deprived just from holding your breath. When engaged in intense physical activity though, they probably do become deprived.
So if I understand correctly, alternating between push-ups and low squats, both until i'm panting and gasping for air, would be a little safer than burpees. But what about how my arms get exhausted doing push-ups way before I'm panting? Switch to easier push-ups, like girl push-ups?
I think I just answered my own question. Bully for me.
Yeah Danyelle, you would start with the harder version and then keep going easier and easier until you are toast. I'm about to go do a quick workout and this is what I'm planning for my first round…
-1 set with weighted squats
-Core exercise done for speed from a pushup position
-1 set jump squats till I'm almost toast
-Different core exercise, an easier one
-A little more core if there's anything left
This whole round should take 3-4 minutes before exhaustion.
Then I'll rest until recovery and do 3-4 more different rounds with different exercises and be outta there. But all the exercises will be lower body exercises alternating with core exercises.
My next workout I was thinking of doing mostly upper body stuff, which is harder to reach your respiratory max, but it can still be done if you are circuiting back and forth between 2 or more exercises.
I know you are trying to reach the majority of people who believe that cardio is the answer to weight loss, and that running is inherently good for you. I appreciate that and in my own small way I try to discourage people from doing it when they bring it up with me. I just think most people who do it seriously know about cross-training and intervals. Trail running is anything but steady state, providing constant physical challenges to balance, etc.
Of course just yesterday I saw two girls running on campus having a right chatty conversation as they made their way through the snow and cold. So, yeah, the vast majority of runners are spending most of their time in that "fat burning" mode.
However, as I said, I think it might be duration that is the key to the problem. If glycogen can really be burned up in 15 minutes than pretty much any cardio routine is going to be counter-productive. This actually goes a long way to explaining why the runners I know who cross-train their brainds out and tend to train by running faster and shorter still have a horrible time building much muscle beyond quads and calves.
Danyelle: One of the exercises in Cosgrove's warmup that just kills me and is totally low impact, is the caterpillar. You touch your toes and then walk out with your hands until you are doing a plank and then walk back up with your hands until you are in the toe-touching position again. I do two or three of those and I'm definitely sucking in the room and it works upper body, core and legs all together.
Another way of doing push-ups if you can't do a full guy pushup is to do them against a staircase. As you get stronger you can back up and use a lower stair.
"I just think most people who do it seriously know about cross-training and intervals."
No offense, but I think that's not true across the board, or at least, not "most". Yes, runners who are hardcore, or subscribers to Runners World mag (not necessarily the same group in both cases, haha) will have familiarity with intervals and such, but I would say for the vast majority of people that I have met and heard from who look to take up running as a means of getting "in shape", that's simply not the case. Programs such as C25K and similar all have the ultimate goal of increasing running endurance. Speed increase (and thus some aspects of power building) are occasionally a corollary, but they are NOT the emphasis that most people have. The general public infatuation with distance running and the sense of "accomplishment" that comes from being able to go farther than ever before appears to take precedent above everything else. All the running guides do further disservice by offering tips such as doing most runs at an easy/conversational pace in fat-burn mode, and only occasionally doing exercises to stretch your limits.
Orange Sarah: My background is that I ran distance for six years as part of a cross country team. We did weight lifting regularly, did plyometric pushups before every run and ran intervals weekly. Our coach was progressive in that he instituted this stuff earlier than most at the high school level and we took a lot of state titles. However that was back in the mid-eighties. Most teams at all levels, are doing that stuff standard. The people I know from trail running are doing that stuff standard. Like you said, Runner's World puts out a lot of info on that and because their articles are online for free, they reach a lot of folks. One of the most popular books that runners read that I see discussed on forums is Run shorter, run faster which is all about HIIT training etc. It's out there and most people who are training for bigger races are aware of it.
I get that most people just start running to get in shape or they read some info on how to run that cautions them from over-doing too quickly. Go to any race from a 5k to an ultra marathon and you will see people having conversations because they are just out there for fun.
I think I do get some benefit from running just in terms of being outside more, getting more fresh air and sunshine and time to think. Of course, I can lie on the deck and do that which is the genius of Matt Stone. He convinced me that I didn't need to beat my brains out to enjoy being outside.
on the muscle soreness: Many times you will experience Delayed Onset Muscle soreness. That can occur from 2-3 days after you do the intense work outs.
Some say to stretch to beat the pain, others are the 'hair of the dog' saying that hitting the weights again will work out the soreness.
Jenny: long history of cross country and one moronathon here. My coach had us run hill repeats and track repeats too. A lot. Ouch. Since it was the 70's, we were forbidden to use the weight room but I snuck in there all the time.. and got kicked out.
I've never posted before but I do follow your blog since you point a lot of useful information. I will say this guy Sears is completely wrong about the heart getting smaller from endurance exercise. The following quote is from a world renowed track coach who coaches world class athletes from the 800 meters upto the Marathon and knows the physiological changes that happen in training better than any doctor ever will. His name is Renato Canova. I'm not saying go out and read about him and follow his programs because he trains elite athletes and this type of training would as you say would destroy a normal person. Anyways here is the quote and he is talking about using this in training his marathon runners. "I always use short sprints uphill (from 60 to 100m, with a gradient of 10-15%, depending on the characteristics of the place), also during full track season (or during every period of preparation regarding marathon runners). Running long distances many times, not always fast but often moderate, athletes become unable to use completely their fibres, expecially FT. Runners of long distance become unable to have quick nervous reactions, and step by step lose capacity of MENTAL INTENSITY in efforts. So, the goal is to recruit their capacity in requiring max intensity to their brain, that means rapidity in transmitting stimula to muscles, and means also the possibility of using the most percentage possible of fibres. So, the first goal of short sprints uphill is not to improve speed, but to reach the capacity of working with the higher number of fibres in each muscle (of course interested in specific activity).The second goal is to increase the elasticity of heart. Being a muscle, heart needs to work using a large range of possibilities. Under this point of view, if you reduce too much your max heart rate, you reduce your capacity of working. An example :Athlete A : Basic HR 50/min – Max HR 200Athlete B : Basic HR 40/min – Max HR 180Athlete C : Basic HR 36/min – Max HR 180A) is the athlete after 2-3 years of training. He's yet young, didn't work very much on long run, is able to reach a high level of HR (200) having a good elasticity in his myocardium. His coefficient of contraction is 4, as he's able to work 4 times his basic value (200 : 50).B) the same athlete, after working 2 years in dicrection of long run, improving very much his aerobic capacity. As his heart becomes bigger, he's able to reduce his basic HR of 20% (from 50 to 40). Of course, he's no more able to have the same peak (from 200 to 180), but loses only 10%. So, now his coefficient of contraction is 4,5 (180 : 40), so the capacity of working of his heart is higher than before.C) after thie type of work, the athlete can yet reduce a little his basic HR, using long run FAST and long intervals (2000/3000m) at speed of 10000m, with short recovery. In this way, his heart can yet become a little bit bigger, but myocardium preserves his elasticity, because heart walls are not too thick, but able to contract and to relax very fast. The improvement of basic HR is 10% (from 40 to 36), but max HR is the same. So, the capacity of working of his heart is now of 5 times (180 : 36).The only way to keep a high level of max HR is to push your heart to its max level, only for very short time, then to relax completly. In this way, myocardium can work at its max intensity, but the effort doesn't last long time, and the muscle cannot become hypertrophic, that is damageous for health and diminutive for performances"
Thanks for the ideas, Jenny. I like the sound of the caterpillar. Steps – not so much, since we live in a ranch, where the only steps are a few right outside my front door. It might freak the neighbors out. No point in subjecting them to the chubby, red-faced panting that is my "exercise look."
Deb: Yeah, it was a shock for the football players to see girls in the weight room, even in the 80s. Even more confusing to them was watching us dead lift more or less what they did without breaking a sweat. My body was so unbalanced back then, even doing weights and push-ups. I remember thinking I was going to die if I had to do more than 20 pounds of military press.
Danyelle: LOLz. I've subjected my neighborhood to so many truly grim exercise ensembles that I no longer even think about it, and always accessorized with that boiled lobster red face that I get from doing any exertion.
I'd really like to know if anyone here has read D. McGuff's Body by Science.
It's really nothing new. Admittedly it is the good old Arthur Jones/SuperSlow/HIT stuff – modified. But I think it's working – and it makes sense.
Don't get me wrong, I was training the CrossFit-style way for years ( similar to Abel's approach ). Which means lots of kettlebells, burpees, jump ropes, tires, olympic weights, sprints, climbing, rings, balancing moves etc. What I really doubt is the metabolic long term effect of such a training. And I never ( NEVER ) gained lots of visible muscle mass using this type of training. At the beginning it's awesome; you develope ( relative ) strength quickly and it's motivating to learn some of these fancy gymnastic moves ( L-Sits in rings or Planche moves ), but then you reach your "first plateau" and… well, maybe it's just that I recognized that I could spend my time with something more important ( e.g. sleeping, eating )- without any metabolic disadvantages. Then I discovered BBS, and what can I say? Roughly 20 minutes a week ( of REAL HIGH INTENSITY ) and lots of sleep and food ( YYYEEESSSS ) and muscle growth is, yeah, almost steroid-like ;-)
But the best thing is: You don't feel like missing something. No more 100 burpees in 5 minutes or 200 kettlebell swings for better "condition". I think such a training is more waste of time ( and muscle ) than a benefit.
I like the HIT "sport is no training" approach. And the things they say about skills ( "If you can perform 100 kettlebell swings in a short amount of time you are very good in swinging the kettlebell. But that doesn't mean that you are a better football player or runner or else." )
"…You can only do kipping pull-ups or clapping pushups so long before you tear the labrum of your shoulder or injure your rotator cuff. Further, these injuries are not always acutely evident. You may tear your labrum in your 20's and "mysteriously" end up with a frozen shoulder in your 50's." ( Doug McGuff )
I think there are safer ways to train ( and more time efficient ).
Here's an interesting interview with McGuff:
"when speaking on Metabolism at the 2011 Weston A. Price Foundation Wise Traditions Conference in Dallas this coming November "
Thank goodness for that. The whole WAPF culture has been inundated with paleo/lo-carb hysteria. I'm thinking that along with Debbie in her cheer leaders costume, I could wear a styrofoam potato hat, ala Green Bay Packers foam cheese hats. Then I could hum Potato Head Blues by Louis Armstrong.
Been in the midwest this week … working on my blog and a bunch of randomness.
finally my geek squad got it to accept wordpress and blogger comments with the peoples photos so it should not be more than a few days til i have a workable link.
I did get the bod pod assessment done :) and started my little all you can eat regime which has been interesting… One buffet looked like a weird Al video and the manager stopped to talk to me because i was eating a ton of food wearing shorts and it has been supposedly "bitter " cold round the way.
my last cheat day included at least 5 sodas, almost an entire pizza 3 plates of mashed potatoes, fried chicken that looked like an entire chicken lol , rice and bourbon chicken, veggies, cocunut ice cream, chocolate cake, cheezy bread and a bunch of stuff i cant remember but i took pics :)
thanks for the shout out, i would agree with sears that restricting the time exercise is a good thing.
Ive lost weight this week while eating "enough" and with tomorrow's workout it will be a grand total of no more than 30 mins.
After watchin some of Scott Abel's , I can say I do in fact do somethings along his lines. JT, was asking what it was i do in another post. I do feel that it is not necessary to go to his extremes to get the most same benefits because after a certain amount of time the body adapts to prevent damage.there may be a 20 to 30 percent increase from "going the distance" but the amount of effort far outweighs the returns.
Like you said there is alot to learn from him and adapt to a personal system.
oh and body by science is a great book if i did not already mention it.
Deb, on soreness
depends if the soreness is accompanied with a lack of motivation. if you are eating and resting right the extreme soreness should not be a regular occurrence maybe slightly here n there. this is due to muscle repair. Your body needs a little time to adapt to the strains. If you feel energetic hit it up, the next workout will alleviate the soreness within minutes but you must listen to your body like matt was saying.
If i feel sore the day after a workout ill just do some body weight exercises for a few minutes then carry on with my day it's pretty rare with correct form and prevention.
OW! omg i can't go to the gym today, i'm in pain just watching this
"I suspect that the actual muscles themselves do not become very oxygen-deprived just from holding your breath. When engaged in intense physical activity though, they probably do become deprived."
i would say all the cells need oxygen and do in fact become deprived to a certain extent but the big plus with exercise is the energy turnover in the form of mitochondria activity which goes above the typical "at rest" needs of just holding your breath which create an adaptation for future "taxation".
Abels stuff is not even similar to crossfit, and I have experience with both types. I don't like crossfit at all. I also did HIT for years and it caused me many injuries and ruined my physique. I rehabbed a lot of my painful joints with MET. I think HIT and crossfit are my 2 least favorite training styles.
It is no problem for me to do a 90 minute workout. The volume in the MET programs is good for me, but one might need to increase the volume over time, like adding 1 set of each exercise per week so that by the time you have been doing it 4-6 weeks I'm at full volume.
I really don't know what to think about that BBS stuff. I did it for quite some time with only moderate results. But than again I was low-carbing back then and probably couldn't have put on a decent amount of muscle to save my life.
It sure sounds greats in theory, but for some reason it does not seem to work for everyone.
There's a lot of talk these days about inflammation in the body as a predictor of heart disease. The test to measure this is called the "C reactive protein test" But does anyone know whether the soreness (inflammation?) resulting from too much exercise or using a different muscle group, etc. can also influence the outcome of this test?
Welcome back long lost friend!
Hey, the way you eat you should be one of those competitive eater dudes. You can eat up and make some cash. For a small fee I could promote you :)
I hear ya on the soreness, mine is usually mild and if it's not I usually find that the next work out takes care of it. Injuries are of course, another story.
Mrs. Potato Head aka Jenny the Nipper!
Love that idea.
Now who wants to be the oatmeal with mole asses?
RHC – Don't know
Anonymous – Thanks for that
Copeland – I have to reiterate what JT says, Crossfit and MET are worlds apart. MET, unlike Crossfit, has a muscle development/growth element to it, and it does work. Crossfit is just a bunch of exercises. You get about as developed doing that as a Chimpanzee does swinging around the trees. Body By Science does sound like an interesting book so I'll give it a read here soon if I can track it down. I am familiar with the HIT/Arthur Jones/Mentzer action, and most argue that you have to reach a certain level of muscular experience to be able to actually get gains from that Dorian Yates style. Lifting heavy weights to failure though is very dangerous, as JT can attest to.
Abel has a similar philosphy about intensity but achieves it differently.
Chief- If you hold your breath as long as you can, it takes, what, 15 seconds to recover your breath? That's not much of an oxygen "debt." I had a 9-minute workout today and it took me about 3-4 minutes to recover my breath after each 3-minute set (each was akin to one of Abel's "blasts"). 2 hours later my heart rate was still 20% higher than normal, and I bet my breathing is still elevated. This is not the same as holding your breath. Not even similar really.
Deb and Jenny-
Maybe we could just get you guys giant outfits that look kinda like Veggie Tales outfits. Somebody can be a potato. We'll have an ear of corn. I don't know, we'll figure it out.
Matt that's so vegan! ( say it like "that's so Raven!)
I want to be a marrow bone.
Or a drumstick as long as it does not make my thighs look fat.
you misunderstood me, maybe i said it like a tard. we are saying the same thing : short bursts of intense exercise far outweighs holding your breath. I was adding to the statement that holding your breath causes a little "oxygen debt".
Body by science is not a light read but very informative.
I would put it in my top 20 health related books.
No I knew what ya meant big Chief. Just responding to the several comments made earlier and yours all in one after some deep relection on it after my 9 minute workout.
Supposedly a real anaerobic workout can keep oxygen consumption elevated for 24 hours following the kind of oxygen debt Sears be talkin' bout.
Deb- You're missing the point. We are trying to lobby for carbs! The WAPF folk don't need to be any more marrow-minded than they already are!
probably why surfers have good longevity/health
Have any of you guys tried vitamin B-17 or amygladin on cancer patients?
Jib, if you haven't already, read Pavel Tsatsouline's Super Joints…awesome book and it should help you understand and deal with the joint pain.
The Real Will:
Thank you! I deleted my comment because I felt like I was going on too much about myself. >_<
But again, thank you, I really want to check that out. It looks awesome. I appreciate the recommendation and look forward to reading that book whenever I can get my hands on it :D
You don't have to do dangerous and joint-aggravating things like sprinting to get the benefits of this type of exercise. Look at Mercola's sexy ass crushing the stationary bike!
Hey Mercola, Teen Wolf called. He wants his short-shorts back.
Don't take it personally. My cancer advice goes to all of the readers on this blog, not just Veiled Glory.
To Jib and anyone else interested in the Super Joints book, I stumbled across an online version of it. Enjoy…
Matt, how did "Skinny Vinny" incorporate oxygen debt into his workouts to increase muscle mass? I've read how to do this for fat loss but not for hypertrophy. Do you have more details? Thanks.
Ok I will be a carb. It's true, the marrow is well represented at WAP.
Can I be a carrot though? In honor of Superman Ray Peat?
Urteter nuytre: http://dietamar.001webs.com
Anonymous – thank you for your response. Lung cancer, as far as I understand, is a disease that spreads throughout the body. The cancer grows and destroys lung tissue and nearby tissue. The patient may eventually suffocate due to lung cancer.
You mentioned that her mom is probably on a nasal cannula. I didn't know what a nasal cannula is before, but according to Wikipedia, it delivers oxygen at 20% to 50% or so. You're correct. But I'm worried that it may displace some of the carbon dioxide concentrated in the lungs.
However, I'm not recommending for her to get off the nasal cannula. That's because the overall effect of her nasal cannula may be beneficial even though it may displace a little bit of carbon dioxide. Getting off of any nasal cannula may be dangerous.
Getting additional carbon dioxide may be very dangerous, as he/she could get carbon dioxide poisoning, if most of her lungs were destroyed. I think lung cancer patients should get at least an alkaline diet.
I know that you think I'm an arrogant. I understand this.
Let's assume that there are two people, Jones and Smith. Smith is Jones' father. However, Smith is dying of diabetes.
If I knew a cure for diabetes, and attempted to persuade Jones about that, then of course, Jones would interpret my statement as an "attack." That's because Jones would reject any hint that there is any cure for diabetes, and then my reputation to him would decline to zero. Therefore, he would think I'm arrogant, and think that I'm not credible enough to be listened, and he then says "get off your soapbox."
There's a bias against nerds. For example, if Chief debates with DML, then Chief will initially be assumed to be the "winner" regardless of who's correct. That's because Chief is muscular and attractive, but DML is (presumed) to be less attractive.
That's one reason of why many men wear suits and collared shirts: to make them look attractive and thus more credible to others. There's also a bias against young people, inexperienced people, and unpopular people.
Again, thank you for providing info about nasal cannula. I appreciate your constructive criticism. Maybe it's possible to further delay the progress of cancer.
OK, MET is totally different from CrossFit. But Abel's videos look very "functional" to me; a lot of complicated or at least strange moves. That is what really doesn't look very safe to me. I'm curious about a sample routine, but Abel's stuff is quite expensive…!!
By the way, if you'll read Body by Science ( which is a MUST ;-) I also highly recommend the BBS Question & Answer book. McGuff and John Little go in medias res, revealing a lot about the HIT approach. Very scientific stuff, but great arguments.
Oh, and Matt, it's a great blog – 180degree helped me a lot during the past year ( and hopefully in the future ) :-) I'm writing from Germany ( excuse my bad English ) and new and good approaches regarding nutrition or exercise are very… non-existent here ;-)
I like the community here and you're doing a great job!
Sorry Organism, but I highly doubt that you have the cure to cancer. My issue is your insensitivity to another person who has a loved one who is suffering…..I don't remember anyone asking you for a cure. I'm a home health/hospice RN, I've seen many very sick people, and I'm well aware of the delicate balance between O2 and
CO2 but to my knowledge you don't have a medical degree so I would suggest you stick to what you do know….offering medical advice is probably not the best thing for you to do.
Interesting and important stuff again. Problem with excersice research is that it is usually made by sports people who has not enough knowledge about the causative reasons for diseases of ageing. They are usually looking what they are used to look but I think that secrects of HIT benefits are still hidden from the eyes of sportworld. It is intriguing to see who "gets it" first. ;)
"The WAPF folk don't need to be any more marrow-minded than they already are!"
Tried really hard not to smile, but it crept up on me anyway. You're kind of the king of puns. (Insert groupie label here.) I'm just a sucker for language manipulation.
(This is Matt D by the way. I know I've only posted a couple times but I thought it was pretty neat we had the same name. Not that that's hugely important but it's like an inside joke. Kind of like this when I bring it up with a friend of mine)
— actually, I'll save the YouTube link for the end.
Thanks for the recommendation. I just did that Peak 8 training using a Tabata training clock I found online — very handy!
I did overhead squats just using a walking stick (that's definitely one of my favorite exercises) for some of the intervals and did some stuff on a stationary bike for the others. Felt fantastic. I might've overdone it though so I'll try to ease it into it a bit more.
Like I said, I appreciate the recommendation, but I do think that the whole Peak 8/Tabata/HIT etc. thing misses the mark. If you really want to know what power is, check it out:
This just popped up on Yahoo! Usually their health and diet stories consist of the "Eat This, Not That" idiot telling me that saturated fat and calories are my enemy. But this, this is something different…
The other morning my 8 year old asked what I thought was an odd question – "Mom, are calories good for you?" (They often ask if such and such is good for them – no idea where they got that preoccupation – *innocent blinking*) It felt good to say "Yes, son, calories are good for you. We couldn't live without them."
On the other hand, I had to sit and watch my 6 year old drink a "10-calorie juice box" and eat a package of crackers after his basketball game – every parent has a turn providing post-game snacks. I almost gagged when I saw the artificially sweetened drink, but held it together for the sake of not embarrassing my family. It was still gross though.
I burned out on Cosgrove at month 3; the program adds some pretty intense stuff in at that point and I couldn't keep up. I began to dread my workouts and that's no way to live! Yes, the "caterpillar" killed me but it did get easier. I also found that most of the benefits happened in the first month, and after that I felt like I was working harder for less.
Probably if I'd powered through it would have been worth it, but I find it almost impossible to do any exercise I don't enjoy.
I've had a lazy month now and am thinking of the next thing… intervals might be it…
Thank You Anonymous, forever to be known as "The Voice of Reason".
Warning: self-indulgent post below. I needed to share something.
I'm 20, and I've been orthorexic for as long as I can remember– it's just come in different forms (vegetarianism, paleo, etc.) but the meat-hating has gone on since I was 11. Even when I ate "primal-ish" I only ate chicken, dairy, nuts and eggs, not actually the way Sisson preaches it.
I'm here today to say I have broken a big barrier. I ate a lamb chop for lunch, I don't know how many calories are in it or how much fat, or if it has favorable omega 3/6 ratios, or what it was fed (although it was organic.) IT WAS FREAKING DELICIOUS. On the side I had spinach and a purple sweet potato cooked in olive oil. I had just finished a killer workout that left me indebted to oxygen that didn't involve ellipticalizing for an hour.
Thank you, 180degreehealth!
Standing Ovation for breaking the Lamb Chop barrier!
Mr Ray Peat would say "Lamb is a ruminant and therefore.. uh.. um.. is able to convert it's fat.. er .. um.. …………….. into saturated fat." BTW, that is a good thing!
Mr. Peat loves his beef and lamb, yes indeed. Grass fed of course if you can manage it.
Yes, I promoting my proposal for cancer by rationalizing my positions on carbon dioxide. I made up evidence about the necessity of inhaling carbon dioxide, ignored that lung cancer patients have specific carbon dioxide requirements, and got really confident that I gave advice without citing any scientific papers. A lot of my advice are correct though, but no one should trust them unless they research them themselves.
I genuinely believe that there's a possibility for the so-called "terminally ill" patients to recover completely. Of course, some people will say things to me such as "none of your business" or "leave her alone," but if I was a doctor, and suggested cancer patients to get some vitamin D or coconut oil, then I'm sure that they would react positively. The real reason that people get offended if I offer them advice is because they would think that I disregard the hard work that they took care for their mother.
Of course, some people may punch me in the face. However, I have a rugged masculine face, with a strong brow ridge and protruding cheekbones. Those facial features would protect me from physical attacks. So I'm not afraid to be a little more direct.
If I go to a low-carb forum and told other members to eat more carbs, then of course they would be offended and some might get defensive and say "my mother has diabetes, she must be on low-carb" or "how dare you suggest eating more carbs" Then they would consider me to be a troll and would ban me.
I was predicting that a few more people would get defensive about my first post, but only one user, anonymous, is against me.
The other person ridicules me because she just hates me. That's because I have offended her in a past comment of mine.
I find your descriptions of your workouts interesting, but if there's a "method" (or master protocol) behind your regimen I think that would make a very informative and useful post.
There is no reason for people to attack Organism, he is just offering up some of his thoughts on things he has researched. I appreciate Organisms comments because they are always original and interesting because he has a unique point of view.
Wow, JT. I was wrong that all lung cancer patients need more carbon dioxide. Some of them have a lot of lung tissue destroyed, so probably the already have a lot of carbon dioxide. Any more is poison. That's my current position.
Anonymous has the right to criticize me. He/she didn't "attack me" at all. She's constructive criticizing me. I really learned some stuff from anonymous. Some of his/her points may be lifesaving information.
Some of you haven't known that I offended Debbie in some earlier posts. First, I made fun of her husband. Second, when Debbie has been debating with Gabriel about sexual attraction, I completely ignored Debbie's arguments. Some of Debbie's thoughts are right to the point. This also includes Jannis. Debbie and Gabriel were just not talking about the same thing. That's why I told that Debbie and Jannis were "strawmanning" Gabriel. There's nothing to be offended about. Actually, both were strawmanning each other.
I was just defending Gabriel because he's the only person defending his position.
Debbie is angry at me; her ridicule of me was expected.
Let's be clear. You are offensive yes, but I don't dismiss all your thoughts because of your lapse in judgement occasionally.
I am a cancer person however with tons of friends fighting for their lives. and I too want to live out mine. I have done TONS of research, tried many things, respect Ray Peat and others.
Do I need your help?
No but thanks anyway.
That is where my discomfort lies.
"I do many things that aren't healthy because I enjoy them"
That's so weird, me too! I mostly just kick butt and look good doing it.
"DML is (presumed) to be less attractive."
I never presumed that you were DML. Do you like climbing ropes?
"That's one reason of why many men wear suits and collared shirts"
What about men that wear Gi's?
Total Recall, what a movie. I was a young teenager when it was on VHS. I remember re-winding one part and watching it many, many times. The bar scene I think. Yeah, you know.
You mean that I should be a little more indirect next time? Instead of mentioning any specific person, I will give "advice" towards a group of people, without giving any hint that it's in response to a specific person. Such as providing a link to an article or writing an article in a journal.
I already knew that some people will disapprove my first comment, before I actually posted it. I already knew that things will turn out very differently if I gave my "advice" and "tips" without I knew that it would hurt her feelings to ask those three questions, especially if it's done directly to the specific person. I just want to shout out the idea that the so-called "terminal illness" is often not a terminal illness.
Matt, you said: "Even eating a perfect, nutritious, whole foods diet and running gives the Tarahumara Indians bodies like Rodney Dangerfield by the time they hit middle age." Can you give us some photos?
wow, you MIGHT be growing up before our eyes!
Yes, saying more 'indirect' things may work better, esp if you DO cite research that you have done and share that, rather than interrogate a person in obviously a desperate and sad place in their lives. Most people would see that as an insensitive attack, as you have learned here.
It's the difference between saying "I have heard of x treatment working…." and "Don't you know that x treatment works?."
I know many people who spent many thousands of dollars at the endstage of their cancers or even when they were still at say stage three, only to die.
Some passed at famous places like Hippocrates or Gersons etc. and many more at the hands of alt people's plans or at the usual, death by allopathic 'treatments'.
Just like pants, one size fits all is a lie.
One cure fits all, also a lie.
Good luck with your new way of commenting. I sincerely hope you can do it.
Who knows, maybe you can actually help someone who needs the info you provide.
Also keep in mind that some people just cannot hear what you have to offer for their own reasons that you can never understand, many times having to do with fear and trust in traditional medicine.
I have had this happen to me more than once.
It is best to let it go, let them find their own way and know that you did let them have the info you have.
In thinkin about your offer to promote my competitive eating career, I think my masculine brow would need to be Epically testosterone filled to protect myself from the black widow Sonya Thomas. Even if I created an oxygen debt to rival Governor " T-1000 " in total Recall, I still would have a lot of trouble beating her 65 hardboiled eggs record. in 6 mins no less …
i'm more of a hang out and chit chat as I eat , people say i still eat fast but not like those guys do …sheez
Chief, just the thought of that many hard boiled eggs makes me feel a bit sick :(
I bet you could out eat some of those buffet dudes no problem. Don't try and win with girls, you know how crafty they are!
Organism as a whole,
I think it is good to never lose hope like you said. I also think that if you tried different approaches you wont have as much trouble with your commenting and you might be able to reverse your psychopathic tendencies or social troubles as well by not losing hope.
what you mentioned about preconceived notions earlier, can go both ways. People often look at me and assume I can't possible have anything important to say because I am muscular so I must be dumb. some people look at me and assume, that because I'm native I must be a criminal ..its not gonna stop me from doing my thing. for the most part I think people here are in search of the truth and a positive environment to discuss things. I don't think people here take sides based on looks.
I read all of your comments and there is a unique view buried in the midst of it all. Even if you have offended some people here I think it has more to do with tact than style. I have not been to china yet but maybe it is a cultural nuance IDK. People get the wrong idea about me quite often due to the slight difference in customs or the way we say or see things.
crafty they are…
I'm no genetic freak I would say most males my size could eat like me. (my brother is only 195 and he out -eats me every time )
I eat intuitively so training for that would require alot of structure. I don't think Im much different than anyone I've just figured a few things out about how the human body works.
Chief, I've missed you the past few weeks! Maybe it was only one week, it's hard to tell. I'm looking forward to your blog. This probably sounds creepy but I think of you often and it's good motivation for me to keep eating. I feel better every day I stick to your and Matt's advice and I'm getting leaner… or maybe I just feel better about my body… either way I like it!! Anyway, hope to see the blog soon :) But don't stress of course, take your time!
Im glad to have inspired you in a positive way.
trust me it has gotten much more creepy, you have not stolen my clothes to sleep with at night or anything like that :) I'l draw the line when i see you diggin' in my garbage.
Keep eating ! if the body says eat listen if it says do not then do not…any results you see from conscious monitoring you are only fooling yourself into thinking you control it like the matrix.
Wow, you guys are on fire!
Yeah it's a tough food world out there for the youngsters. Just score a few points here and there and try to get them to think about something else, like cool wordisms, which is my favorite thing. It's a good thing I like words, I wrote 6,000 of them today in a project I'm working on, which, incidentally, will contain a little bit of the information Sir Brock requested.
Jib Matt- That training looks so intense dude! It's like MET and MovNat all wrapped into one! That's definitely going on my Facebook wall this instant. Brock, check that out man. All your workout questions will be answered.
Will- I haven't looked into Skinny vinny too much, I just remember him talking (awkwardly) about oxygen debt in one of his videos. His workouts are definitely circuit style with a lot of dynamic Abel-esque movements.
Your all growsis up. She's all growsis up! We so proud. Lamb rules.
Johnny – Is kicking butt and looking good doing it really that unhealthy? The early studies done on it showed some significant increases in like, telomere activity or something.
What I like about Sears is that he is definitely diseases of aging first, athlete second.
On Cosgrove burnout –
I found Abel's workouts to start having the same feeling. I loved them, and was still getting results, but I started aching and just feeling general burnout. I've taken a week off and resumed but with just 3 days per week of bodyweight stuff and I may try some Peak 8/PACE blend – they both have their advantages but Peak 8 doesn't contain functional exercise which is what I love about Abel's stuff.
Abel does functional stuff but in a different context than Crossfit by the way. It's used to play a supportive role in creating overload for muscle development, whereas Crossfit contains no muscle development component. I don't see Crossfit people doing 40 sets of chest per week like Abel. That's overload.
You're right. Being muscular is not necessarily attractive.
Yes, it's my fault for making up some evidence without referring to any research. I'm sorry for that, and I'll try to provide some evidence to back up my claims. I think we all went through the fear of conventional medicine and try everything else which is contrary to conventional medicine. I'll give some evidence next time.
It's a good idea to provide material to back up my claims. In my experience with debating with people, I learned that people won't be convinced by what you say in your mind, and that it's hard for yourself, even, to figure out what to say. It's a good idea to provide material-such as books, charts, diagrams, and scientific papers, in printed form, to back up your claims when persuading someone.
Sometimes people will get emotional and say things without backing up their claims with evidence. Almost every time I do this, people won't be convinced. They will get defensive of their beliefs, and do the same to you back. It's convoluting. It's a waste of time.
A better idea is to post articles on blogs or websites. I have plenty of experience debating with people, so I know what to write. If I post articles on a blog, I don't need to debate with anyone to spread my ideas. I will repeat and say I have plenty of experience debating with people, so I don't need to debate as much.
A lot of people are trying to do this, but they usually don't have the patience or time. Debating with other people on a forum or blog may lead to rationalizations, lack of clarity, and rants.
Whether you strawmanned me or not, this is an interesting discussion. After I left my first comment, I waited a whole day, and felt too scared to check my comment. My heart was racing. So I'm not convinced that I learned something.
Maybe I had learned something, and I'm trying to rationalize away anything what I learned. That couldn't be, because I struggled thinking what to questions to ask to about "terminal illness" in the first comment. I'm already nervous when I was tying my first comment, so I knew it before anyone said it.
Again, this is an interesting discussion.
I'm sorry that I did this even though I knew it's offensive before I had done this.
I won't comment on this blog anymore. The reason is that I don't have the time to do it.
"I have found the volume and duration of MET to be way beyond what any normal human can tolerate. It's totally unrealistic for most people and way beyond any normal person' league."
Matt, I have some questions, if you don't mind…
Why do you believe it is "unrealistic" and "way beyond any normal person[s]league"?
Do you agree or disagree that a healthy individual can dramatically increase work capacity of a period of time?
Why or why not?
Just curious about your thoughts on the matter, if you have the time or inclination to answer me.
Of course, anyone else who wants to chip in is welcome to.
Oops, just correcting a kind of confusing typo in my second question (correction is capitalized):
Do you agree or disagree that a healthy individual can dramatically increase work capacity OVER a period of time?
"I have found the volume and duration of MET to be way beyond what any normal human can tolerate. It's totally unrealistic for most people and way beyond any normal person' league."
I took this to mean what any "normal untrained sedentary human" can tolerate. I think most healthy functioning capable people can dramatically increase their work capacity. I used to train for 60 minutes doing purely strength work but thanks to this RRARF business haven't touched a weight since last July. Yesterday at work basically I "pulled a sled" for about 75 yards at 90% effort and was done for the rest of the day and could barely get out of bed this morning.
Idk though he may mean a "normal person", like not a genetically gifted freak of nature like Abel.
DML & Matt,
You can definitely increase your work capacity over time. I did it in a shoe period of time after being completely sedentary for 2 years. It is not true that MET type of training and the volume is only for genetic freaks.
If it was me I would keep the program structure the same and just do less sets. It is also better to train more frequently, so I would do all 5 days a week. You will not make any long term progress if you keep bouncing around to different programs before you master one.
Why do you think you are not recovering properly? What amounts of protein and carbs are you eating a day?
OMG, OMG, ZOMG! I can't believe you guys are discussing the competative eating of hardboiled eggs and have not brought up Cool Hand Luke:
By the way, speaking of standards of attractiveness, it has been scientifically proven by hordes of experts, (middle aged women and gay men) that Mr. Newman of this era looked the best without his shirt off of any human ever. That is a fact. So I recommend a strict diet of hard boiled eggs and a training regime of busting rocks while chained to other sweaty prisoners. Otherwise it is all just a failure to communicate.
"You can definitely increase your work capacity over time. I did it in a shoe period of time after being completely sedentary for 2 years. It is not true that MET type of training and the volume is only for genetic freaks."
I agree. You are bound to feel like shit the first time you work out, if it's been awhile. That's just the way it is. I did a killer (for me) workout on Tuesday a.m. and Wednesday and Thursday I felt like crap. I could barely move. I went at it again today and I feel great. All the DOMS have fled, hopefully for good. The main thing is not to give up after that first work out.
I am running mostly into pain in the elbows, wrists, and shoulders and still can't string 5 MET days together in one.
Perhaps I'm just going at it too hard for my current recovery capacity. Who knows. Maybe my extensive endrurance exercise past has left me with diddley squat for fast twitch muscle fibers.
I'm having to take some time off from it, and am not really interested in putting on much more size (5'9" 201 is pretty beefcake as it is).
I'm more interested in researching what can be accomplished in short and infrequent exercise sessions because that is something more realistic for a typical person at any age. MET is obviously not something very many people will do. And I don't think MET is something anyone has to do to improve their health, cardiopulmonary system, and body composition. You can't get on stage of course by doing short exericse, but you can still make substantial progress. That's what counts more for me and the vast majority of the public.
Matt, perhaps throwing in lighter/less challenging workouts in between your MET workouts would help. The heavy, medium, light (HML) structure has been around a long time. Perhaps as someone gets stronger and then increases their work output, the MET workouts may need to be spaced further apart. But as JT mentions, there is an advantage to working out frequently. Perhaps you may have to alternate MET and lighter workouts, then as you progress, 1 MET to 2 light, etc. It's better to keep those joints moving frequently but it's not necessary to blast/torture them every single workout.
How lean are you at 201? You seem to put muscle on pretty quickl so you have good genetics to develop a nice physique. Because of this, I think you should go for it and see what kind of development you could get. It would definitely be good for marketing purposes!
I think something like the hybrid hypertrophy plan might be something you like more. It is much less demanding and will be a good mix between metabolic conditioning and building muscle.it is more enjoyable for me, and would definitely be a better way for people to get into this type of training.
"…researching what can be accomplished in short and infrequent sessions…" Sounds good!
Occasionally I throw in one of these:
Trying to set new records is quite motivating. A lot of "sucking in the room" afterwards.
I agree with JT. I think a few recent pics would do wonders for the site traffic. Matt "Hard As A" Stone.
Matt, You sound pretty built and it also sounds like we need new pictures or a new Mattie time video.
Your people need inspiration!
deb the frozen in time hag
Real Will wrote: "…Matt 'Hard As A' Stone"
Will, don't encourage him. The food porn is bad enough.
haha Tezza. Hilarious.
Not super lean. MET hasn't helped me all that much in that department, but these shorter, harder bursts of exercise like doing his blasts and a few max exertion intervals seem to be helping immediately, are more fun, and take less of a toll on my body.
I've always had a really hard time building muscle. On low-carb I once spent 9 months training about 4 days per week. Just your basic approach. The gains were very slight. I started lifting weights at age 12 – even had a weight room in my house next door to my room! I worked out hard for high school football and again for college baseball. Still, not much more than a few pounds for several months to a year of continuous training.
I'd say MET put somewhere between 12-15 pounds of lean mass on me, but it's tough to say for sure without a body composition panel. There's no question about it's effectiveness in my mind, and it's due to the combination of overload and oxygen debt pieced together primarily, but the other idiosyncrasies of the training such as balance moves for muscle fiber recruitment for example are all important.
If I'm looking for some growth again after dabbling in some shorter and even higher-intensity stuff (which can only give me even better metabolic adaptions), I'll pick MET back up again. After several months it is feeling a little stale.
But the bottom line is that I do think there are some very promising elements to this concept of going to the cardiopulmonary max in a shorter period of time. Doing 3 rounds of Abel croc walk killers was a cakewalk compared to 3, 30-second rounds on going apeshit on an Elliptical machine at the highest resistance setting.
I don't sit around and do nothing on my days off, but stay active going on walks and things like that. After months of cranking out 4-6 workouts per week it feels good to get totally reloaded before I walk into the gym.
That Turkish workout does look fairly bodacious, but while I do have stones that size I don't keep them strapped to my ankles.
To my mind there's nothing better than sprints for inducing "cardiopulmanary max". I've done stair climbs, burpees, jump-rope and jump-squats, and none of them are as effective as sprints. They all suffer from either insufficient muscular challenge (jump rope) or muscle/strength limitations being reached before reaching maximum "sucking in the room" near-sick-to-your-stomach feeling, in my experience.
I'm not concerned with injuries. I was in track in high school and know how to do warm-ups; I also do yoga on my off days. Admittedly I just started again this week, but I did this before back in college without any problems.
"I've always had a really hard time building muscle. On low-carb I once spent 9 months training about 4 days per week….Still, not much more than a few pounds for several months to a year of continuous training"
Sounds just like me. I always read (mostly from bodybuilding mags) about how important it was to eat a bunch of calories & starch to gain lean mass but always thought that was for the folks that could handle carbs. I just kept at it with low carb and assumed I wasn't genetically gifted to gain lean mass (and by looking at my 4'11" mother). I'd love to experiment again with it. When I do train I can't imagine not ever wanting to quit and when I'm not training I can't imagine why I would ever want to. TALFRRARF (Thanks A Lot Friggin RRARF)
Friggin' RRARF!!! You'll find a much greater ability to develop muscle this time around with the right training and right diet to support it – not to mention an improved hormonal profile from a vicious round of ETF (eat the food).
Sprints are perfect in that you are moving every muscle in the body together simultaneously for speed. But there's no question they lend themselves to pulls and strains in the uninitiated. The Elliptical machine is actually pretty good believe it or not. But you can't go at quite the same speed. But yes, the key is going to cardiopulmonary max before muscle failure, and even the best-designed circuit has shortcomings – not to mention it takes 3-4 minutes to reach that point vs. 30 seconds as with sprinting, stationary bikes, or Elliptical machines.
I had the exact same experience as Matt and Johnny Lawrence back in 1999 (the last time I systematically kicked my own ass at the gym). I had to work like a fiend to lose any weight or put on any muscle at all. I figured I just had one of those slow, hard-gainer metabolisms.
I'm sure the "paleo" low-calorie/low-carb diet I was on had nothing to do with it! Lol.
I think it will be a lot easier to build lean mass this time around. TALFRRARF.
Maybe I'll check out the elliptical machines at some point, if I ever go to a gym. Right now though I'm only getting as far as the parking lot of my apartment complex. Unsurprisingly there are no elliptical machines there, just nice flat straight-aways.
Matt, I see you're 4 hours south of me for the moment (you sure do move around a lot). Send me an email if you're passing through or near Jacksonville.
Thanks Brock, I was going to contact you a few months ago when I was in New Smyrna Beach only a little over an hour south of Jacksonville, but didn't want to seem like a 180 peep stalker. But I will definitely come harass you in the not-too-distant future. We can have a 180 decathlon with events like the gallon challenge, parking lot footrace, and Wii Fit toss. I wanna see lil' Hercules too. He's the future poster boy for 180 Fertility from what I hear.
Yeah, working out when you are RRARF-primed and starch fed is a little different from the Puny-o diet.
Ha! And hear I was afraid you'd think I was your blog-fan/stalker!
"Oh, Matt, I'm your biggest fan. We should really hang out some time!" ;P
I will pawn your ass at Wii Fit! 280 yards on the Ski Jump, muchacho!
Any foot race will be pretty sad though. My sprints still look like "lumbering fat guy chasing the donut truck". But maybe I'll set a fast PACE for 16 weeks and have 10% body fat like sprinter twin Lauren, eh? Lol.
Points for usage of the word "pawn," but note my proposed event was tossing of the Wii Fit, not playing it. Frickin' nerd.
Fuck. I can't even smack-talk without reading comprehension fail.
Ok, I'm gonna go walk and chew gum now. Wish me luck.
I have had the same experience as you guys, I can't gain any muscle at all unless I am eating plenty of starch. When I was paleo/low carb the muscle was taken off my body in rapid fashion. Even though I was working out and eating plenty of protein, I could not gain any muscle at all. I also got weaker. Modern humans are definitely starch eaters.
Great post as always!
What you're doing when you create an "oxgen debt" is actually increasing Carbon Dioxide levels. That is what helps oxygen get to the cells. Increasing the carbon dioxide is what helps reduce asthma etc a la Buteyko. Buteyko calls it; creating "air hunger". Same thing, the CO2 levels (carbon dioxide) increases. Best way to keep CO2 levels high is to always nose breathe while exercising.
"The Elliptical machine is actually pretty good believe it or not."
That's right. I really was on the low budget equipment and bodyweight trip ( and it's OK! ), but that doesn't mean that all gym equipment and/or machines are your enemy!
Best "sucking-in-the-room-machines" ;-), in my opinion, are the VersaClimber or a Concept 2 rowing machine. Try to give all ( A L L ) in a 2000m race or shorter sprints and it's a near-death-experience! Very brief, very intense. And working the whole body.
There are also these old "Ski Machines" from NordicTrack ( quite cheap now ) – great for extremely exhausting intervals.
Don't get me wrong, plyometrics or functional bodyweight exercises can be great training tools. But wear-and-tear issues over the long term will be a problem for most.
Have you seen these Mercola videos? Mercola is training with ‘speed coach? Phil Campbell and his Peak 8 program…..talk about sucking in the room! Mercola also mentions Al Sears and PACE. The first video is discussion between Mercola and Campbell, the second video is a Peak 8 training session. This includes 8 cycles of 30 second intense excercise, with 1.5 minute rests in between. Mercola says he is starting to look like a sprinter.
Heather in Toronto
Presumably part of the point with this is that the more you do, the more 'room' you have to suck in (or the harder you can work, the more your capacity increases)?
I've been trying to do short bursts of high intensity on the rebounder. Ok, you can laugh at me: but I'm hardly an athletic specimen. It's _cold_ up here in AK, and I'm wearing my heavy down booties, and sometimes bracing on an overhead rope working my upper body. I could bounce on the rebounder all day, or if I pick my knees up (with booties on) and work my upper body some, I can be puffing and gasping within a minute.
Getting some good results from eating starch too now..thanks much!
Matt, that photo you gave me was very small, and I wouldn't call it proof of anything. Also, I have found these: http://api.ning.com/files/IxPfzOrgAhfrZmvO2WGl8sGM5CFbke4rC4fJkbvGq66De6UXfpCD1689Cm0hO4N*Q082y*XwEI*1*ORB4jSytTTn-aDWvtdc/TARAHUMARA_SEMANA_SANTA_010.jpg
None found with a "dangerfield body".
Though I can see where you are going, and they are certainly not muscular. Still, I think you don't have proof that it is damaging for them.
"There are also these old "Ski Machines" from NordicTrack ( quite cheap now ) – great for extremely exhausting intervals."
Yes, I have one in my basement that my gym threw out. When you crank up the resistance to it's highest setting it can be tough. Still, it is nothing compared to trying to climb up a hill in cross country skis which is still way harder. Unless you are skiing on a flat surface, I think XC is the all around most challenging exercise. Problem is it's such a royal pain in the but to wax the skis for the conditions, get the gear on and get to the ski area that you end up spending a couple hours out there just to make it worth while. So any muscle gains are gobbled up by the time you leave. I should buy a cheap ass pair of waxless skis and just go for 20 minutes or so in the park by my house…
"Though I can see where you are going, and they are certainly not muscular. Still, I think you don't have proof that it is damaging for them."
I think his point was that this is the best case scenario for running (it's done for cultural/social reasons, and is backed by good nutrition, it's trail running in difficult terrain) and its still doesn't yield the kind of body most people are after when they are out there busting their butts on the asphalt trail. The older guy in the first photo you posted EL, did look a tad Dangerfield esque. Not much, but clearly running countless miles doesn't necessarily get you a super lean body, like the dude in the second photo you posted.
Heather – I've seen them and Peak 8 has some advantages and some disadvantages vs. Sears's PACE program, which I discuss in a new project I'm just finishing up.
Dangerfield wasn't that fat when he was young either like the people in those pics.
My point is that I can have a superior body to most of the people shown in the pictures playing video games and not doing endurance exercise.
And Jenny is right – the point is that if you want to improve your body composition with an increase in muscle and decrease in fat, particularly abdominal fat, mimicking the Tarahumara is likely to give you negative progress – and this assumes you won't injure yourself or get burned out trying to mimic them (this is all hypothetical, no sane person with a life is going to go run a marathon several times a week, keep it up, and not develop overuse and overtraining injuires in the process).
I have been thinking about how to implement the PACE modality of exercise in my life. I no longer own any exercise equipment other than a pair of running shoes and a dog. My only daily activity is walking a few miles with Dog.
I mashed my heels very badly about 10 years ago, when I tried to do Body For Life using running as cardio. My poor feet couldn’t withstand the impact and I developed a very bad case of plantar fasciitis, which can return at the slightest provocation.
I am, however, considering starting to do all-out speedwalking intervals as a PACE modality.
Speedwalking can certainly tax the system just as much as, say, doing all-out intervals on an elliptical or tread climber, but it doesn’t put the stress on the heels that running does.
What do you think, Matt?
This is from the Dragondoor catalog… (Pt1)
Are you one of those frustrated into
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Before you force yourself into blindly doing
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He also observed that long-distance runners were
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He said that animals and natives in the wild run
in short bursts. Then, they take time for recovery.
And, they repeat this cycle of exertion and
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runners die of heart attacks because they have not
trained their hearts to recover. This is the same
conclusion I reported in The Doctor's Heart
Your Natural Heart Wave
These observations of cycles lead Dr. Dardik to
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When you begin exercise, your heart rate begins
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Dardik was the first to see these as ?waves within
Generate Strong Heart Waves –
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Of course, if you have a heart problem you
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Here's a sample program you can do in about 10
INT. Rest INT. Rest INT.
30 sec 2 min 40 sec 2 min 40 sec
Rest INT. Rest INT. Rest
2 min 30 sec 2 min 20 sec 2 min
Repeat this every couple of days but in the next
session slightly increase the intensity. So if you're
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Progressivity is the first principle of my
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INT. Rest INT. Rest INT.
30 sec 2 min 40 sec 2 min 40 sec
Rest INT. Rest INT. Rest
2 min 30 sec 2 min 20 sec 2 min
LEARN TO GENERATE BIGGER "HEART WAVES"
AND BEAT DISEASES OF AGING
By Al Sears, M.D.
This article by Al Sears, MD is reprinted, with
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Sorry, I should have noted in my first post that it was an article by Al Sears on his PACE program.
Thanks Will, that was sweet.
Yeah, I think even speed walking people can pull stuff. It's kind of an awkward movement, and it will take you a long time before you reach any kind of max.
I think the best if you want to do something without any real equipment, gym, or risk of injury -you may find doing some simple compound movements with bodyweight and some light dumbbells to be all you need.
Two good ones would be to do squat presses…
And lunge curls…
These are just a couple of examples, but I think you'll be more likely to get the effect Sears is after with those as opposed to walking, but it's for everyone to customize for what they know is safe, practical, and something they will do at least a couple times per week and stick with. Changing it up from time to time is an important element too.
Hey Carolina, I too got a bad case of PF from running and wearing non supportive shoes on hard floors. Here's what I do to avoid PF flare ups:
Don't wear orthotics all the time. This is the opposite of what your podiatrist will tell you. I've seen people who wear special shoes in the shower to avoid standing barefoot. That is crazy. Go some time, a few hours a day, in shoes with no support. Moccasins, flip flops, etc. Barefoot is best of all if you can make it work. Change your walking so that you lean forward and land on your forefoot not your heels. This takes time to condition your leg muscles.
Run/walk on dirt. If you are going to be sprinting, that's great since you'll be on your toes. It's great to sprint on grass, or even better sand. I've started driving to the woods near my house to get the terrain and surface I want for intervals without all the pounding on asphalt getting there. I can't wear Vibram Five fingers, but my old racing flats work great if I need something to protect my feet from rough terrain.
In the winter I live in my mukluks which have no arch support whatsoever. I'm pretty sure wearing these to the mall and to museums last year after I'd gained weight is what kicked off my latest round of PF. If I have to stand or walk for any length of time on concrete (visit to a museum, shopping at a mall, etc), I always wear supportive shoes. I wear clogs now when I cook because they are so comfortable for standing. Also they make me a few inches taller which is nice ergonomically for my counters and my range top. In clogs I can cook for three hours straight and not be exhausted. I hear those gel pads work great too. I'm thinking of getting one for my workout space in the basement.
When you do have a PF flare-up there are self massage things you can do to really ease it. Matt sent me a pdf a while back that had details and it really helped.
I no longer have access to dumbbells, and, believe it or not, nor do I have access to the space where I could perform those exercises. A pair of shoes and a dog is all my available workout rig. And the road.
I usually spend all summer in Vibrams, and I have Converse All Star shoes for spring and fall. This winter it has been unreally snowy/icy, so I've been in snow boots most of the time.
I do put Lynco brand orthotics in my running shoes, and I tend to choose rigid running shoes such as Brooks Adrenaline GTS. I wouldn't think of doing on-asphalt interval training unless I was wearing suitable armor for my feet.
I guess I am hoping that I can get into PACE type workouts without adding complication to my life. Going out the door is about as much complication as I can tolerate at present. Why I'm thinking about speedwalking is because I anticipate that as I get stronger (and hopefully lighter, too), I can gradually progress towards running sprints, with all the convenience and simplicity they afford.
Carolina, I know you said that you don't have access to any equipment, but if you could borrow an exercise bike or buy one used for cheap (people should be giving up their New Year's Resolutions by now, LOL!), that should give you a good workout without the foot pain. jmho. Good luck.
It's not necessarily about complicating your life. If you want to do it, and it's important enough to you to try it, you will do it and find a way to do it. If you don't, you probably won't. Only you can decide that for yourself.
What Matt said is correct. A lot of it comes down to how bad you want it. Sometimes it is not convenient, but many things that are good for us aren't. I would rather go to a gym, and find that it gives better results, but power walking would probably be just as good as those other kinds of cardio. I have found that most women do better in group exercise classes.
Just find what you enjoy and can stick to. You don't have to do PACE workouts to get results.
You're right, Matt, it's about priorities. For me, streamlining and simplifying my life, shedding the "need" for all but the most essential of objects is a top priority. So, adding a cardio machine to my household is NOT in the cards, for instance. Maintaining a sane relationship with food and a sense of contentment with myself is more important than the pursuit of greater leanness.
IF I am going to modify my activity levels, I want to do it in a way that does not require the acquisition of any more objects, and that integrates with my ideal streamlined lifestyle. Walking/speedwalking/running seems like a natural way to pursue this.
Good feedback JT. And it should be a reminder to everyone that the purpose behind exercise isn't for pursuing leanness at all, it's about much more than that. This is about pursuing health and vitality. Was talking to my mom last night for instance and she's already bummed that she can no longer get around good enough to play tennis because of a lifetime of not taking care of herself in simple ways. 5 minutes per day could have kept her in good enough condition to still enjoy the activities she loves. It's not about how you look. It's about being able to do what you love and using nutrition and exercise and other key elements of basic health to support it without it taking over your life. There is a way to achieve that. There is a way to make exercise something no one could ever stop you from doing instead of weighing it down with the psychological baggage of "inconvenient work."
Make sure your desire to simplify and streamline your life doesn't make your life more complex and difficult. I have gone down the same path and found that my attachment to this belief just got in the way of what works. In my mind what works is the most important thing.
If I was in your situation I would join a gym with group classes with a qualified teacher. This seems like the path with the least amount of complexity. Most newbies that try to do this on their own end up getting stressed out and fail.
I agree, it is not just about getting lean. It is about staying healthy and functional in our unnatural and sedentary world. I think healthy physical activity is especially important to balance the people who obsess over food. Like the late great Jack Lalanne said, "exercise is king and diet is queen." A good fitness program can enable a little more flexibilty with the diet.
JT, thanks for your comment. Currently, a gym is not viable, as the nearest gym is 30 minutes away from my house. Right now, Husband and I are streamlining our lives so as to be able to relocate to Manhattan, where we can live with a minimum of objects and still have all we need on hand at all times. Such as a gym.
Besides, I'm hardly a "newbie." I'm a 30-year dieting veteran, a 10-year survivor of the low-carb wars, as well as having vast experience in many modalities of physical activity, from long distance running, to ChaLean Extreme, Cardio Coach (HIIT). I used to have a full weight rack with bench and barbell, and an elliptical in my basement (they are now gone). I have done Callanetics, competitive swimming, water aerobics, blah blah blah blah… Group exercise classes annoy the hell out of me, BTW.
None of this has yielded the desired result of a lean physique. And I've been at it for DECADES.
I am quite healthy, my blood readings are quite good, and am able to perform any activities I desire, from walking or hiking several miles without faltering, to spending my day riding my bike, etc. Dog and I walk at least two miles a day.
But I do carry more fat than I would ideally desire to have. Still, said fat does not interfere with what I want to do. I live a healthy and reasonably active life, and do not allow my fat to get in the way of pursuing a fulfilling existence.
The only thing it prevents me from doing is wearing smaller clothes.
My biggest triumph over the past year has been to re-establish a sane relationship with food. After a decade in the lowcarb battlefield, which culminated in 15 months on zero carb, I have been seeking a way to get off the dieting roller coaster without ballooning out of control. (HAES is fine, as long as *I* personally don't expand any further.) After eight months in this I have reached a state of homeostasis, in which I eat what I like, when I like, without gaining further fat or girth. I have also reached a state in which I will choose whole, nutrient-dense foods preferentially, on a daily basis, and my desire for junk has greatly decreased, both in quantity and frequency. I feel I have covered a lot of ground successfully, regardless of what my body composition may be.
Still, I have to confess that the idea that I could modify what I already do (walk daily) and perhaps see a decrease in my body fat percentage is intriguing. But such a pursuit is not compelling enough for me to drive an hour round-trip for a 20 minute workout, not to add another object to my life. Not right now.
Sound like things are going well for you. You are physically active everyday and eating well. I really doubt that doing a 10 minute PACE workout will drop your bodyfat much. And most importantly, will being a few pounds leaner make you any happier? If I was you I would just drop the idea and focus on being happy and functional.
Unless you are naturally lean, getting low bodyfat requires a fairly strict diet and more volume and intensity for exercise. I do 90 minutes 5-6 days a week of extremly high intensity, and eat a pretty strict diet to accomplish my goals. Females and older people will probably have more strenuous requirements due to hormones. The problem is most people just end up hurting themselves trying to accomplish these goals.
"My point is that I can have a superior body to most of the people shown in the pictures playing video games and not doing endurance exercise."
Point made. Though, is good to remember how much can a human body stand when it is healthy to begin with. I would love to see some good studies comparing endurance to high intensity excersice, besides the twins of Sears, of course. I guess I'll go search for them, since this seems very interesting.
JT, perhaps you are imagining me as a person who wants to lose 10 vanity pounds. But when one is 40+ pounds overfat, the idea of doing something that will decrease that amount of adipose accumulation is intriguing. No, these pounds of fat don't really interfere with my functionality and enjoyment of life. However, I do wonder. How could I not?
If someone has 40 pound of fat to lose then a 10 minute PACE workout isn't likely to accomplish their goals. I think that at the MOST one might gain 1-2 pounds of muscle and lose 1-2 pounds more than doing your normal walking routine. So there is no reason to stress about it.
That sort of body comp change will require more time, discipline, and commitment. I personally would avoid all extreme diet and exercise programs. I always recommend for everyone to get checked out by a medical professional first.
Just watch the Olympics to see the difference between sprinters and marathon runners. Of course much of the difference is due to genetics.
Yeah, well, after 30 years of conscientious self-loathing interspersed with periods of unrestrained bingeing, I'm not about to pursue a more aggressive course of action in order to correct my fatness.
Thanks for your feedback. I may yet try PACE, on a lark. If I don't get leaner, I'm not out much in the way of time or effort.
You look fine in your picture, so I wouldn't worry about it, but even if you were really fat there is no need for the self-loathing. It only feeds the binge cycle that puts you further in the hole.
Is being skinny really going to make you that much happier? I doubt it, especially considering the time, effort, and discipline that will need to be applied doing something you might not enjoy. I enjoy this lifestyle and it is a hobby for me, but if I didn't enjoy it I don't think it would be sustainable for me
Even if you do try it for the sake of leanness you probably will fail. That's never a reason to pursue anything. It's all gotta be about what makes you feel your best and live your best life. And this often entails some exercise and eating nutritious food – just to feel lively, refreshed, energetic, etc.
But JT is of course very limited in his ability to think outside of the box on what is and is not possible. Don't feel like you can't lose weight eating to appetite or that some type of workout program can't make a difference. It can. One person has even lost 100 pounds on RRARF "eating like a fiend" in her words, and she has yet to enter a gym. JT doesn't know that this is possible. He pays too much attention to what people are doing to get leaner than what is natural and healthy for a human being in the fitness competitor world. This takes starvation, nifty tricks like re-feeds, and a very large volume of exercise (which made me drop maybe 3 pounds and then stop losing – so an insignicant change for example).
You are already where you need to be and are doing the right thing. Maybe it will lead to weight loss, maybe not. It doesn't really matter. But like I said, some people may improve their health and their lives and overall vitality by doing something like PACE. Not everyone will, but some will. With your long history of exercise it's probably less likely to have a signficant impact, but you never know.
I wrote something awesome but it disappeared:
went along these lines
I strongly disagree with this statement made by JT
"If someone has 40 pound of fat to lose then a 10 minute PACE workout isn't likely to accomplish their goals"
Dont lose hope carolina, I thought I was doomed by genes at one time. Small changes can make big differences.
I'm documenting my "retarded amount of food" weight loss process ( less than one week till i hit the start of week three which i will post the previous 14 days adventure on that day. stay tuned I promise it will at least be funny and you may actually learn something ..maybe
I have thought outside the box for a long time. I thought the "tricks" would work better and that all of the sheeple were ignorant because they thought it took hard work and discipline. I was WRONG. None of the tricks worked, and I pretty much tried them all.
Then after stating all of that about me, you end up agreeing with my conclusion that it probably wont make a difference!
How many people have lost 100s of pounds RRARFing eating excess calories? We know the majority gain fat on RRARF.
Your statement is illogical. How did you jump from my comment to telling her not to lose hope? How did you misconstrue my statement into meaning that I said she case was hopeless? My intent was to tell her the truth so that she isn't vulnerable to hucksters trying to sell tricks and gimmicks in place of the truth.
I don't understand why you have to be so ambiguous about your system. Why dont you go ahead and tell us what your system is so that it can help all of these people?
I don't want to lead Carolina on, or get her all excited to change her life around to do something that may not cause her to lose fat – doing all that for the sole purpose of losing fat when she is already happy and functional.
But in a conversation about what is and is not possible you made narrow predictions of a 1-2 pound difference.
You are correct that most people gain fat on RRARF (for 30-90 days). However, I'd go so far as to say that more than 50% of the obese middle-aged women who go on RRARF see drastic health improvements followed by weight loss. And that's just reading a short little set of ideas without so much as a menu plan or exercise advice or portion control or calorie counting or any of that nonsense.
The others, if they have the persistence to continue, often do begin losing weight following the same set of advice. Some don't. I'm going to go ahead and make the prediction that this simple type of exercise will drastically increase the percentage of people that experience fat loss eating to appetite of a mixed diet.
I said don't lose hope because she said she has struggled for 30 years nothing to do with you it seems like she is looking for answers and may be reluctant to try things because it seems hopeless just giving her some positive encouragement.
as far as my statement being illogical, I don't understand why it would be illogical. I just don't follow the Reduced calorie weight loss model and think that nearly everyone can achieve, within reason a desirable results without reducing food intake or trying to create a deficit with a large volume of exercise to burn the fat. In regards to you I simply just disagree with your thoughts on weight loss for the most part, thats all nothing else personal about it.
I actually enjoy our convos and I started commenting on 180 for the counterarguments to my thoughts not a for a fan club so as always I like your comments.
Im not being ambiguous It is just way beyond the scope of comments or even one simple blog post perhaps even one book. Funny thing is I believe i have laid it out well so far because it's real simple only in my years of training people i have realized that it sounds like crazy talk so i will try to go into exhausting detail on my blog. I have helped a lot of people and If i can get the right platform going I surely can help many more I would not be going through the trouble of gaining fat on purpose ( which sucks ass) to document it if snake oil marketing was my goal. Im sure one day restricting food to not be fat will be looked at like blood letting, flat earth theory, telegony or even thrifty gene which the guy that came up with it stopped believing.
Matt.First of all,thanks for all that you do.You've helped me loads to get over alot of the BS that is out there.Now you've alluded multiple times to a starch overfeeding diet being potentially the most efficient way to raise body temperatures.My temps are exactly 97.1 right now,every single day,and i'd like to take them to at least 97.8.I've brought them up from the low 96's by removing some stressful activities,not excercising very much, and sleeping normally for the first time in my life since I was in middle school.I'm 19 now.I still get tired after eating alot of carbs and just genereally don't feel as good as i'd like to.I'd like to try this MNP/starch overfeeding.Any suggestions?Would potatoes and yams do?I'm looking to try 6,000cal a day of starch.Something like 80% carbs,15% protein,5% fat.No sugars,just pure potatoes,yams,beans,etc with maybe a little bit of beef and coconut oil to make up the difference.Do you think this would shift temps upward in 30 days?Basically,I want to know what you think is the most effective way to raise the body temperature in the shortest amount of time.I've pretty much made peace with food at this point.My temps are still hanging out at 97.1 though.Your advice is much appreciated!
Yes, but starch overfeeding is more hypothetical than anything else. Eating that much starch is much harder than it sounds.
Secondly, most of the studies done were just short-term and meaningless.
In my experience, trying to starch overfeed without fat is more or less impossible, and it takes a mental toll and can potentially put a damper on hormones like testosterone due to not only the sudden change in diet but the lack of fat which many are just plain poorly adapted to.
I would just eat starch, fat, and protein all mixed together and really try to enjoy it. Nourish yourself with food like you have with sleep and stress reduction. It's a winning formula that hardly ever fails. Most of all, at age 19, the sooner you can break free from over-thinking your diet and get out of that vicious in-seach-of-the-perfect-diet disease the better. It is self-perpetuating and much more destructive than people give it credit for.
As your metabolism comes up you should lose the sleepy, heavy feeling you get eating carbs. I certainly did and I could hardly keep my eyes open for the first week. Ultimately that sleepy, restful feeling can be quite healing, especially to someone who hasn't slept well in years.
Just continue to unwind and rebuild. At 19, you should be able to snap back into good shape pretty quickly and move on with the rest of your life – guarding your good health instead of fighting just to feel normal.
"You are correct that most people gain fat on RRARF (for 30-90 days)."
i think there is a way to circumvent this, been working on it and i just need to organize some fresh guinea pigs that are coming off of a diet lifestyle. I will say that it is harder than simply rarrfing it up so it may be too much for some but it gets the same results without the flab.
I am sure it works on me as I have had to decrease my calories to get fat and I made the weight gain stop before "rarrfing" and have no increase increase in chub to report nor do i foresee any in the future.
and your prediction is right, done correctly it will increase the number of successful "losers" I have seen it.
one piece of advice that I can say that goes with our line of convo is before embarking on a HED mixed with exercise routine I would suggest doing nothing at all but resting up for at least 2 weeks even vacationing. then start eating HED and slowly add intensity that you can handle progressively pushing it a little farther each workout. Adding at least one do nothing at all day. Hell you can even start with 2-10 sec sprints on day one and build it up to a 5 min workout within weeks. I've seen one lady that was bed-ridded and could only clap so she clapped.
That's basically the direction I took my new eBook which should be coming out soon. It's basically RRARF with new material like that I shared with you on the 180 Metabolism blog.
I make the exercise optional and say that one can only do metabolism-neutral (walking, stretching) or metabolism-positive (short bursts of maximal effort with progressions) exercise.
The rest as a primer is an interesting idea.
I meant that it was illogical to infer from my comments that i was implying she was hopeless. I guess i misunderstood your comment if that is not what you meant. I enjoy our convos as well, and hope to have more, especially once you roll out your system for us all to see!
What reasons do you have to believe that this simple exercise strategy is going to be the key to fat loss while eating HED? Especially when compare to other types of exercise? Like I said before, I have experience with this type of training, and didn't get as much out of it. This is really just a variation on HIIT, nothing new, but I do find it better that jogging for body comp.
Anonymous, I agree with Matt eating that much starch alone would be quite a task and this is coming from a pig out expert and I would also hardly say it is the fastest way to raise temps.
if you provided a bit more info maybe there might be something that can be done
are you super skinny ? a bit chubby ? kinda fat
relatively strong ? pretty weak?
zero urge to get off your ass ?
sat on your ass your whole life ?
dont have legs idk..
sleep is normal ?
i would say walking is not neutral, although it may not cause an oxygen debt there is much to be said about its metabolic healing effects especially the stress release factor… if you do it in cold weather, underdressed, it could rival sprints easily.
I tell them to rest up hardcore but I also use the primer weeks to get them off any diet or dumb shit and "empty the glass of coke ". if you ever seen the movie no retreat no surrender you understand what I mean.
JT, cant wait to see your reactions as well.
I have to disagree with the guidelines at the end of your blog post. You can lose fat and gain muscle at the same time, but you have to pay more attention to detail. Most people lose too much muscle while they are losing weight because they eat too low calorie. The trick is to temporarily eat very low fat, high carbohydrate, moderate protein, until you get down to the bodyfat range you want to reach. People have lost some fat while gaining muscle at the same time, but could probably lose far more fat had they lowered their fat intake even further. Women can gain muscle as easily as guys can, though they start of with smaller builds to begin with. It's just that women follow a very backwards perspective and do not even attempt to lift substantial amounts of weights to gain any muscle. The New HIT by Dr. Ellington Darden showed that rats still gained muscle in the absense of testosterone as long as their was a demand put on their body to need to gain muscle. If women followed specific dietary principals they can increase their natural testosterone. You just have to make sure to take in enough carbohydrates to put on new muscle, but you don't have to overeat on the fat. When putting on new muscle you gain 2 pounds of muscle a month max the first year, so you need to consume 330g of extra protein every month spread out over the month. You also need to maintain current muscle mass with 0.36g of muscle per a pound of bodyweight. When on a layoff period you lose your gains, but can gain them back in a month, just consume 165g of extra protein a day until you gain back your lost muscle. I think Tim Ferriss has developed 1 year and 4 months worth of muscle, and so he gained back 28 pounds of muscle in one month. Casey Viator lost lots of muscle because of an accident he got into beyond just the bodybuilding muscle, so he gained back 64 pounds of muscle in a month. You don't necessarily need to restrict calories to lose bodyfat, you need to restrict dietary fat calories. If on a ketogenic diet you need to restrict calories and eat more protein, but ketogenic diets are overly complicated and include lots of issues for people looking to lift weights and lose weight. You don't necessarily have to exercise more than 30 minutes to lose weight, you just need to temporarily restrict fat intake. If you don't exercise but you work a standing or walking job your burn twice to three times as many calories that day. Exercise does greatly help though.
Will you be reviewing Tim Ferriss' new book "The Four Hour Body" or compare it to Scott Abel's system at all? I haven't finished it but I found it very interesting. Much less time consuming than Scott Abel's workouts.
I've posted this earlier in Ian's newsgroup but I thought I'd put it here to clarify women and lifting:
I feel women should apply the same principals as men. They're not going to look like freaks unless they do steroids. I've seen women that are attractive and have a very unnatural appearance, but I think they develop emotional imbalances with the prohormones they take. I could be wrong about that. I've seen other women that took prohormones and look very unnattractive. There may be some cases where certain women don't look good when they build muscle naturally, but this doesn't count for most women. And other women are ugly no matter what. Same rules apply for guys. Women with deep voices, very unnattractive. I respect someone's effort a lot more when they focus on great form than being a big clumbsy nit witted bulky oaf with somewhat unbalanced muscular proportions.
Not attractive, looks like a guy with boobs and long hair:
I personally feel this women is hot but wouldn't say this build is ideal for most women or what guys would consider ideal. For a heavier set guy a women with this build might be more ideal. She doesn't look natural but if she is that's great genetics. Even for unnattural those are some excellent proportions. Warning: exposed boobs.
I personally don't find most steroid using female bodybuilders that attractive, but their are a few that look good, especially when they're away from contest and put on some bodyfat. Natural athletic women are more attractive than most steroid using females.
This build is attractive but it's not a bodybuilder. Though the extreme flexibility is kinda freaky.
Women with good muscle tone.
Yes, non muscular women can look attractive too.
Being fit does bring a lot of long term health benefits too, and so does eating healthy or having good attitude/habits.
I didn't care for Roxy Rain's appearance after looking around youtube for female aesthetic in bodybuilding, they appear too masculine but they roid, don't think natural females would ever have this problem. According to Bigger, Stronger, Faster women lose their ability to reproduce when they do most steroids.
As far as weightloss and building muscle go, I would say to do a cross training weight lifting session, high rep calisthenics and plyometrics throughout the day, and if you're going to run do it on a cardio bike. Elliptical and treadmills can tire many novices bodies. I found I could go two hours on an elliptical at a heart rate of 171 whereas I could only maintain that heart rate for 20 minutes on a treadmill at my current 240 pound frame. Too much impact on the body. I can accomplish it as long as I take in plenty of protein and carbohydrates. Even ellipticals can cause problems where it takes me a long time to recover afterwards due to being in a fixed position, so I couldn't workout the next couple of days due to fatigue. I didn't have this problem in the past but it could be the brand and make of the ellipticals I had been using at this current gym.
Daniel Holt ..you said
"I have to disagree with the guidelines at the end of your blog post. You can lose fat and gain muscle at the same time"
he was saying the PACE guy disproves those points, they were not guidelines.
I have also lost fat and gained muscle at the same time, there is no need for a "trick" or to scientifically measure out any macro nutrient in order to do it. Your taste buds and the hypothalamus do it for you. Eating all lab rat style does not get the best results because everyone is more unique than a one size fits all 2 grams of protein per pound scenario. You can even increase muscle eating very little although it is not optimal. Fasting pops out hormones to protect you and muscle is mostly water, thats an absolute must you have to drink. The people in concentration camps would have died a lot quicker and not been able to work if not for that little body magic as well as metabolic rate dropping ultra low.
i have also seen people put on way more than 2 pounds per month the first time in the gym.
Tim Ferris' book 4 hour body was not all that amazing in my opinion. maybe some people never heard of some of the things he speaks about but to me it did not live up to the expectations I had for it.
The only thing new to me was holding your breath for long periods. i found it very limited and short like most of the subjects in there. He could have just made 90 % of what he wrote about in blog posts. don't get me wrong I read his blog and Think he is interesting.
I agree women can't get all insanely bulky naturally and they should not fear weights.
When you consume lower calorie your body will go into varying levels of ketosis. If you're fasting you body goes into full blown ketosis. At first the body switches to 80% fat, 20% carbohydrate burning. By three weeks it takes 90% of it's energy from fat and only 10% of it's energy from carbohydrates. So after 3 weeks a fasting sedentary 150 pound 10% bodyfat person would lose 154g of protein and 168g of fat. About a pound of muscle a day. The fat burn percentage might actually be higher than that by that time. As their is more muscle loss the metabolism will slow down, the metabolic rate will lower, and less protein will be lost daily. A distance runner with a resting heart rate between 33-60 beats a minute would likely burn far fewer calories during a fast.
Guys who had their first time in the gym likely gained back previously lost muscle from other sports and activities they had been playing over the years. Did you notice that once they put on a certain amount of muscle their muscle gains began to slow down?
I would like to see a sterioud free beautiful women with the perfect figure build up her type IIA muscle fibers to her genetic potential to see how she looks, as I am currently unaware of any doing this, obviously not an ugly women because they would give muscle building a bad reputation. I doubt any natural fitness women has even come close to her genetic potential, not even the really famous ones. Natural Powerlifting and Olympic weightlifting women have built up type their IIB muscle fibers to their genetic potential and many of them look beautiful.
Tim Ferris' book has a lot of useful advice I wouldn't have known elsewhere and feel it will aid me in my pursuit for greater health and performance. I like the system of weightlifting and fitness he compiled in his book.
Are you related to Organism as a WHole?
You sound like him.
" Did you notice that once they put on a certain amount of muscle their muscle gains began to slow down?"
of course everyone slows down the more they hit the gym it's called nearing your genetic potential. most of these Skinnies I am talking about I have known a long time they never had muscle trust me … never
you can use math all you want in the gym but there are no set formulas for body transformation.
you can also count grams of food all day and most likely only hinder your progress.
They could have just been underweight all their lives because they were undereating calories, including protein. So they didn't just put on weightlifting muscle, but natural muscle because they began to take in more calories. Here's an example:
Maybe the guy lifted weights before, then got chronic fatigue, and became massively underweight. He started eating more protein, calories, gained back his memory muscle and his regular body muscle, and then put on a little bit more muscle from exercising.
obviously they had to increase calories in order to build the muscle mass in question. They question to ask is not were they eating too little for their norm but why were they eating too little… the human body does not try to throw a monkey wrench into anyones plans if it sends a signal to eat too little there is a reason perhaps thats all it can handle or perhaps thats all that is needed. It's not as cut and dry as simply eating x amount of protein and muscle memory. There is quite alot to it and the majority of gym rats have it ass backwards.
A lot of people don't make it a requirement to eat that much food, especially protein. They'll drink soda and potatoe chips, but won't eat that much protein. They play online videogames or go outside skating and burning a lot of calories, or distance running, or wrestling, but aren't eating enough protein to replenish it. Sometimes they didn't have much money in their childhood so they didn't get enough protein and so they're underweight or undermuscled. Others will snack on chicken wings and some protein but then burn it up the rest of the day.
I definetely don't know all the chemistry of what's going on in our body when we undereat. I would imagine we go into varying levels of ketosis followed by muscle loss, then the metabolism also slows down because of the muscle loss.
if you are severely lacking in whatever nutrient, you will crave whatever food you were exposed to in your life that contains some of this nutrient the body is a very interesting machine.
To start off: I was so nervous, that my heart was racing when I came back reading the replies to my comments. This is the second time that it happened.
Now, I feel better. It seemed that not too many people cared what I had wrote here. (Or they did actually care, but had chosen not to show it.) Whatever the case may be, after I settled this conflict with Debbie, there were no further replies since. So it had seemed that I was the one who is being judgmental.
Anyway, just to clarify, my second and third comments here were not intended to be directed at Vieled Glory. The motivation of my second and third comments were to save face (and to give my opinion to other 180 readers).
Ignore what my intentions were when I was posting my first comment. As you have read, my first comment sounded like I was angry. But the real fact is that I was not angry. Also, I do not care much about saving cancer patients, as I am not friends with Vieled Glory, and millions of people die every day in car crashes accidents rather than cancer.
I will go back to the topic, and say that I deliberately wrote my first comment in a way so it would sound "direct" to the reader. I knew that some people would interpret my comment to have an "angry tone," so I have accepted to risk that people will confront me after they read it.
My point is that no one, in the real world, would say such a thing, in that manner, to Vieled Glory. People are not that dumb or arrogant.
Off topic: Daniel Holt has some interesting comments here. Like Debbie said, Daniel's writing style is similar to mine, so his comments would be interesting to read. No, I am not solely reading them only because of his writing style, but he may have some interesting points.