Although the sound quality is less than spectacular – I was in a room full of “moo-shine” filled refrigerators, here is a large chunk of a talk I gave to a local group of real foodies in Sarasota on Tuesday. Nothing earth-shattering, but unlike Uncle Rico’s flippin’ sweet play action QB video in the movie Napolean Dynamite, it hopefully won’t make you say “this is pretty much the worst video ever made.”
Some of you may recognize the Weston A. Price Foundation reading material on the wall beside me, as this was put on by Sarasota-area WAPF chapter leader Cynthia Calisch. Topics include metabolism, raising body temperature, overcoming insulin resistance, and the potential benefits of a diet very low in omega 6 polyunsaturated fat.
Please be sure to stir up controversy on my alleged identity as frequent commentor “Chief” based on my chosen attire.
For more on the topics discussed in this talk, such as my dietary and lifestyle strategy devised for raising metabolism, improving insulin sensitivity, and my favortism for saturated over polyunsaturated fat – read THIS FREE EBOOK.
You can also check out: installment #2 of Chris Sandel’s RRARF experience.
Thanks to Cynthia and all those in attendance!
Looking like a well nourished mofo! looking forward to watch these!!
Yeah, wow, like Chris said, you've really lookin Hanz and Franz there. And you ARE the Chief!
In the incredibly elaborate words of Scott Abel… "MET Training baby, oh yeah." 4 weeks and I became a pretty thick slice of bacon. And I was too out of shape in the first 3 weeks to even complete one of his workouts. So in actuality, that's 3 weeks of trying to do MET with 1 week of actually being able to sort of do it.
Matt, can you give a quick rundown on the MET routine tried. How many times per week? Thanks
Undertow-
I tried to do it 5 times per week, but I don't think I ever topped 4 in a 7-day period due to just being worn out from the hard training. My typical workout lasted about 45 minutes in the beginning and about 70 minutes by the end. It was all done between about Oct. 20th and Thanksgiving. Haven't worked out since the Tues. before thanksgiving, but hope to pick it back up, precisely because it is so effective, and I noticed some improvements in pain reduction in muscles and joints, incredible boosts in fitness level, etc.
In general, the primary training objective is to maintain a continuous oxygen shortage, and work your muscles in this fatigued, oxygen-deprived state. So it's circuit training basically. However, you blend speed training with no resistance other than bodyweight and resistance bands with some heavy weight traditional exercises done in mini-circuits of 3 exercises at a time.
It's extremely complex training to fully explain, but that's the general idea. Hard as you can imagine (had to stop very early in my workouts in the beginning due to nausea – a natural result of doing exercises for speed because the intensity level is so much higher).
Anyway, this training combined with eating a ton of carbs, plenty of calories, good sleep, 2 hour sessions of laying face down in the sand midday at the beach, and an otherwise restful and relaxing lifestyle is a great blend of destress punctuated with acute stress for optimal results.
Sweet baby! I like that physical transformation. And good for you for speaking at a WAPF chapter meeting.
I pretty much singlehandledly introduced you and Guyenet to all the chapter leaders via their private yahoo group and carried the torch for "WAP does not equal low carb" in that group for over a year, despite some serious opposition. Some of the end results? Guyenet at the conference and you before a Chapter group.
Love it!
Overcomes my disappointment at any real food WAP type group having a conference about "food and politics" and at least not giving me, Karen DeCoster and Wilt Alston a cameo appearance, LOL!
Holy crap, Matt. Do you crush walnuts one-handed now? What about just by looking at them mean?
Matt,
Loved the talk. Great job. You do ooze masculinity and it was very distracting. Your neck looks like it has doubled in thickness. Mens Health did an article about that and they where saying that because athletes necks are so big that this is a main cause of sleep apnea. They had some scare stories of these young strong healthy guys falling dead because they could not breath during sleep. Have you noticed a difference in sleep quality?
Ha ha. Yeah, my neck hasn't been that thick since I was in high school playing sports and lifting weights and stuff. Sleep was a little off when I started the training but is fine now – although, I haven't done jack diddley in 10 days except a little frisbee and beach walking.
Brock-
I find little PUFA-ey walnuts no challenge. I crush coconuts one-handed now. I would give things mean looks, but don't really have the urge to be that mean with all these carbs I'm eating. I just want to hug everybody.
Michael-
Thanks cuz. 99% of the traditional diets on earth were starch-based, and the body of evidence showing low rates of degenerative disease on such diets is vastly larger than the body of evidence on the diets of the Masai and Eskimo. Nothing against a high-fat diet, but any vendettas against carbs are way off base and unwarranted.
But I think one thing the WAPF needs to really become free of their beliefs instead of imprisoned by them is the idea that they are at war against some "diet dictocrat in the sky."
The average American consumes 1100 calories per day from a combination of white flour and added, refined sweeteners while consuming mostly oxidized seed oils as part of their comparatively "high-fat" diet. In the diet category, this is the problem, and I highly doubt Weston A. Price would have lost sight of this most important detail if he were still alive and disseminating information to the public about what to eat, and what not to eat.
The official diet dictocrat says to eat lots of fruits and vegetables, lots of starchy grains, legumes, and tubers – preferably in whole form, use oils sparingly (good advice when seed oils are the staple), eat lean meats, dairy, and seafood, and get something like 25g or less of refined sugar daily. At the end of the day, this is not advice to declare war against.
What size shirt is that Hulk? Rip that thing off.
Alright Chief, spit it out! Where is Matt and what have you done to him? You may fool those newbie readers, but I recognize the good old Matt "the carbo face" Stone when I see him. And that guy in the video definitely was not him. That's definitely some weird kind of conspiracy going on here.
Oh and spelling sucks btw.
Who is that beefy looking hunk of a man in the video??
You make me wanner eat my coconuts and potatoes.. RRRRRAAAAARRRFFFF….
;-P
Great speak btw (as if I was listening) ;-D
When it came time to offer your disagreements with WAPF current practice, I thought I was going to hear a riff on the whole phytic acid freak-out. Or was that clipped? PUFA is the most important bit. :-)
Hey Matt, you should re-shoot those boarshead shots now, but without the knife. No one would doubt you simply ripped it off in absentminded fit of the munchies.
I wonder where all the people that said you were "chubby", not all that long ago at. Nice work brudder! Once I complete my new weight room, I'll be tryin' me some of dat dere MET trainin'!
#1: Killer Chief Shirt.. where is he anyways?
#2: Kick ass body building job!
#3: <3
deb
OMG Matt you look like you're super fit! I wish I could get to that point. I just want to hide right now with my body fat?.I also am having a tough time getting my joint issues under control.
Matt wrote:
"the primary training objective is to maintain a continuous oxygen shortage"
That's so Buteyko of you! lol! Awesome! One of the best ways to improve body oxygenation is through exercise. I just am too low energy still….
I found this online today regarding uric acid poisoning. No wonder I developed joint issues after being low carb. I HATE low carb diets!
"A very low calorie diet without carbohydrate can induce extreme hyperuricemia (uric acid poisoning);"
The metabolic syndrome often presents with hyperuricemia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperuricemia
Are you losing your hair?
@Arlo…it just looks like a crew cut to me. ;-)
@Matt…it looks like you are on the verge of being a bodybuilder. You like more like a gymnast or collegiate wrestler. Nice work. I'm impressed. I would not mind being built like that in the least. I'm next. ;-)
Ha, you guys are funny. I've still got a little chub, but my body comp. has definitely improved since the carbo face attack of early 2010. It was hard work eating all that pizza, exercising for like 100 hours total all year, and not being so strict and paralyzed by my diet.
Lisa-
The oxygen debt isn't necessarily Buteyko style. It's about gasping for air like the fish at the end of the Epic Faith No More video, or like the guy in the Tabata burpee video that you commented about a couple months ago.
Madmuhhh-
Chief did not eat me. I ate Chief.
Johnny-
It's a large. Probably could've gone with the XL, but it obviously made me look way huger than I really am.
Arlo-
My hair started thinning about 5-6 years ago right after my starvation stint. I woke up everyday to a pillow full of hair. Then I started eating mostly vegan and doing a bunch of fasts and crap like that. It didn't help either.
It seems like it may be getting slightly thinner, but it's hard to tell. My hair more or less looks the same as it did the last time I shaved my head in 2007.
Damn stupid diets. I assume that's the primary culprit. But of course I blame everything on damn stupid diets.
Brock-
Next photo shoot will probably feature potatoes and a serene, friendly grin like I just wanna hug everybody.
Hey Matt,
This is really inspiring. You look obviously robust and healthy. Maybe not a bodybuilder, but I perceive some of that radiant wellness you talk about. I guess some of the payoff from your long-term oriented strategies are starting to show. Kudos man.
In the middle of the talk, but your logic is strong and talking points solid. Cheers amigo
In video three, when you say RRARF! it sounds like Scooby do.
And why is Larry David getting up in the middle of your terrific speech?? The Nerve.
That's so funny. When I saw your new buffness I wondered if you were doing one of Abel's workouts. I've been following the 5 Day Whole Body Hypertrophy video for the last two weeks. I've been eating HED style for about a year, which seems to have lowered my set point a sizable amount, so I figured I would add in an exercise component and see if it drops further. Little did I know what I was getting myself into! My experience is much like yours: I could only do 4 of 5 days the first week, and I was "sucking in the room" (as Abel would say) after each set. If you view each set as a kind of wind sprint, you're doing 48 friggin sprints per day! But I'm actually liking it a lot – working out hard WITH plenty of food is a nice change: my recovery is SO MUCH faster. I'd be curious to know if your diet changed (voluntarily or involuntarily) since you started doing the workouts?
Hot. I love the shaved head.
Matt wrote:??"The oxygen debt isn't necessarily Buteyko style. It's about gasping for air like the fish at the end of the Epic Faith No More video, or like the guy in the Tabata burpee video that you commented about a couple months ago."
Yes, I totally get it now, I remember that video, what I didn't realize then is that even though the person in that video was gasping for air and fully mouth breathing, the end result is similar to what Buteyko talks about. You raise the CO2 levels by creating oxygen starvation, he calls it "air shortage". Doing it with heavy mouth breathing is definitely not a way that would work for anyone that's really sick like me, but I find it interesting that the principles are the same: air shortage, which leads to increased CO2 levels, which creates a situation where the cells can get that much needed oxygen, (since it is CO2 that delivers the oxygen to the cells). It's cool. I'm glad to see that it's working for you! :)
"99% of the traditional diets on earth were starch-based"
How is this possible if agriculture has only been around for a few thousand years?
Even before agriculture most humans ate tubers and fruit in large quantity. Next phase of human development happened when humans moved to higher latitudes where more meat and fat was typically consumed in those locales, while the major population centers remained closer to the equator where food is more reliably available.
But even hunter-gatherers have incredible ability to gather large quantities of wild tubers. As Staffan Lindeberg wrote in his 2010 book…
?In order to increase the caloric yield per workload, root vegetables may often have been an optimal dietary choice. An illustrative example is the Machiguenga tribe of the Amazon, among whom one woman can dig up enough root vegetables in one hour to feed 25 adults for one day. The excellent health status among this and other starch-eating ethnic groups, including our own study population in Papua New Guinea, contradicts the popular notion that such foods are a cause of obesity and type 2 diabetes.
But "traditional" refers to traditions, and there's no doubt that all traditions the world over morphed to make the starchy staple the centerpiece of the diet where they had access to year-round supplies.
All of Asia except Mongolia, all of Africa except the Somali, Samburu, and Masai, almost all of Europe, all of South and Central America, and so on. It is the rule, not the exception.
Annabelle-
I worship Timbalake daily for keeping this low-maintenance hairstyle en vogue.
Lisa-
Thanks for the clarification. I wonder what Peat thinks about Buteyko and lactic-acid producing exercise.
Jim-
Yeah, totally. Sucking in the room training and eating the hell out of some food is unmatched in terms of its muscle-building capacity. I need to order me his hypertrophy video, although I assume it is similar but with a little more rest and heavier weights. I will agree that, although it's hard as hell, after you get in good enough shape to do it, it's really fun. Beats any other gym training I've done for basic enjoyability.
My tastes changed to want more sugar, which I embraced for once with good results, but I've always argued that sugar may provide advantages over a sugar-free diet when doing high-intensity training.
So, is it normal to feel like a piece of floppy wet lettuce when moving from a low carb/ high fat diet to a lower fat, starch based diet?
I would like to fully embrace starch but a couple problems doubt me.
First of all I just prefer the taste of fat, not really the taste of plain starch. I need 3000-3500k to maintain or slightly gain weight. I find it incredibly hard to find the appetite to eat that amount of calories from starch…
Also the floppy wet lettuce syndrome… I feel tired after eating starch most times, feel like I want to rest more, feel like I want to stay in bed all the time. So after a few days of this I decide that my energy is too low and go back to a low starch high fat diet.
Now I tend to be a highly stressed individual, is this higher energy from high fat diet purely adrenal energy and the inclusion of starch reduces adrenal output and allows my body to finally rest a bit, and when it finally gets that signal it makes me like a wet lettuce? Is this something that would sort its self out in time?
I am a 24 year old male, always the skinny one. Over the past year or two decided to gain weight from 140lbs – 180lbs…now sitting at 168 which I am happy with. Workout with weights, outwardly I still look skinny, I have more muscle mass. Body fat is higher than I'd like but can still see faint sign of abs. When I was 140lbs was not much leaner body fat wise…skinny fat!
Is this a case of (slight?) insulin resistance, caused by high cortisol( stressed individual) ?
Ooooh, another thing.
How much poly fat should you aim to be below? Is it a percentage of total calories/ percentage of total fat, or just a gram amount.
Obviously the higher the calories and the higher the fat content of the diet the more Poly fat you will consume even when eating predominantly sat fat sources!
Are you now suggesting 70 min sessions of exercise? Correct me if I'm wrong but that's hardly effortless weight loss right?
Hi Matt,
Long time listener, first time caller.
I have often wondered about Peat's take on Buteyko as he has similar views on the role of CO2 to professor Buteyko himself. He has also given a lot of talks to practitioners and organisations of the method as well as written about it in 4 or 5 essays.
However, Peat's insistence on a high functioning metabolism/thyroid is at odds with Buteyko practitioners who seem to hold that a low functioning thyroid/lower body temperature is optimal. A common view in Russia/Eastern European countries that I have come across many times over the years. Hence the enjoyment of cold water baths and snow bathing specifically for this purpose of lowering body temperature. Also Peat has very different ideas on diet to any Buteyko practitioner I've ever come across.
My own appreciation of Buteyko came from the normalbreathing.com website as it actually explained to me fully what is going on with the system. I had oft been confused before.
Lisa E, I forget if you are familiar with the above site as I have heard you talk about Buteyko before – perhaps you mentioned it. Worth checking out, especially as the guy running it advises use of a diy breathing device as a more efficient method of raising the control pause initially, then using buteyko, if you want to go further, later on.
Michael Grant White, of breathing.com, says that low CO2 levels are not caused by over-breathing alone but also when the breath isn't full and deep the parasympathetic relaxation response isn't activated. When activated the response allows CO2 to be held in correct balance. He attributes some of the effect of Buteyko to its shallow breathing not allowing a full stimulation of the sympathetic nervous system, on the in-breath, thereby allowing a kind of emotional blunting/calming.
Cool – hope I haven't butchered the view of any of the peoples mentioned above. Robert
Sarahk-
Ha ha. I'm not recommending this for weight loss and lost little to no weight doing this. I did lose some fat after stopping over Thanksgiving though, which I would call effortless considering that one day I ate 13 cookies.
Lee-
Your suspicions are correct:
"Now I tend to be a highly stressed individual, is this higher energy from high fat diet purely adrenal energy and the inclusion of starch reduces adrenal output and allows my body to finally rest a bit, and when it finally gets that signal it makes me like a wet lettuce? Is this something that would sort its self out in time?"
You don't have to cut out the fat either and eat all starch. But I do like to see people getting close to half of their calories from starchy foods if possible.
There's no doubt that this causes tiredness, fatigue, drowsiness, blood sugar swings, brain fog, etc. This does sort itself out with a couple of weeks in most cases. For me it only lasted for 4-5 days, but I was eating REALLY hard during those 4-5 days!
But eventually after your adrenal glands have rested and your insulin sensitivity returned from low-carb adventures, you'll most likely feel energized once again but not in a manic way with lots of stress and anxiety.
I had lots of energy on low-carb too. I was hot tempered, couldn't sleep, couldn't quiet my mind, had dark cicles under my eyes, and so on. I've found these problems tend to get worse the leaner you get on a low-carb diet, which is where low-carb becomes particularly risky.
Robert-
Thanks for calling in.
Oh and Lee, I think both the ratio of saturated and monounsaturated to polyunsaturated matters as well as the total gram amount.
Ideally I'd say 100 grams of fat per day or so with about 2-4 grams of total omega 6 and 1 gram of omega 3 is probably about right.
OK, I'm wearing my black Sprockets turtle neck today so I'm feeling a little avant garde. For your next photo shoot I see you surrounded by potatoes, Colbert Style, in front of a fire place, smiling lovingly at a severed boars head, like you two are on a date.
"My tastes changed to want more sugar, which I embraced for once with good results, but I've always argued that sugar may provide advantages over a sugar-free diet when doing high-intensity training."
It's like JT is back all of a sudden.
Good ideas on the photo shoot. I can just see it, except I would most likely be on a date with my computer.
I always gave JT that, and tried to distinguish between RRARF, which was overfeeding while sedentary (something that would stimulate the fructose to be converted to fat in the liver, which I still suspect is a BAD thing), and fructose before and after exercise – which is known to improve recovery and lower cortisol.
Yes, a date with a computer is even more sprockets. I hear Kraftwerk for the soundtrack.
I was just trying to make a stupid Matt=JT conspiracy joke. If you appear in your next video wearing a "I heart Bikram Yoga" t-shirt, I'll know what to think.
Oh by the way, Matt, exercise has to be your next book.
Hey Matt,
You said…
"The average American consumes 1100 calories per day from a combination of white flour and added, refined sweeteners while consuming mostly oxidized seed oils as part of their comparatively "high-fat" diet."
Where'd you get the 1100 figure? That seems awfully low for an average.
Aaron-
Sorry, that may have been confusing. Americans eat lots of calories. ONLY 1,100 of them come from white flour, white sugar, and syrups with little to no nutritional value.
In addition to that, Americans eat a couple hundred vegetable oil calories daily.
In other words, if one is to define refined carbohydrates and seed oils as the primary dietary culprits of modern disease, and your average American gets at least 50% of his or her calories from these sources daily, with no nutritional value then…
This is really why I put less focus on peripheral health things, like whether the beef was grassfed or cornfed. That is just nitpicky stuff in comparison to this severe dietary atrocity.
Jenny-
Wow, my friend Jon introduced my to Kraftwerk just in time (this past summer). Otherwise I would've had no friggin idea (NFI) what you were talking about. That's digging deep. You make-a-me proud.
My kid's favorite music in the world is Kraftwerk. One of the best moments of my life as a parent was driving down the Autobahn with him while he sang all the lyrics to Pocket Calculator.
Yeah, pocket calculator would have been epic background music at the end of video 4 up above.
MATT-
What are your thoughts on Choline being able to support the export of liver fat?
No major thoughts about it. Haven't checked out Masterjahn's recent posts on choline either. I better I suppose.
You should. It's really interesting stuff! May be the explanation why some people handle fructose better than others.
I will. I have serious doubts that it has anything to do with how someone handles fructose though. Eating lots of eggs and raw dairy and chicken and other good sources of choline made me incredibly sensitive to fructose for example – not in terms of fatty liver or whatever, but just my general response to it.
My suspicion is that a high-fat diet (like really high – more than 50% of calories), and to an even greater extent a high PUFA diet has more to do with fatty liver issues from fructose and/or alcohol (but there is some indication that saturated fat is protective against fatty liver disease, so who knows).
Matt — I would say that we have to be ever suspicious of high fat diets in general because they are what necessitates higher levels of choline to process. Individuals on low fat diets don't seem to require a lot of choline (as per the many cultures out there that eat low fat) — And I figure that as long as you eat some fish or high quality animal foods while eating a diet like you recommend – I don't think you will have to worry about choline
Thanks Aaron – and you do have choline in vegetables, greens, grains, and so forth. It's not just eggs and liver and chicken and milk and fish – although those seem to be richer sources overall, unless you plan on eating a pound of spinach a day like Joel Fuhrman.
How did my comment from Whole Health Source end up on here?
Oh well… you look great Matt.
It's hard to tell. It's still uncertain how much Choline one requires. And it also depends on what other food sources we take in. There is a lot more to it, apparently.
Read Chris Masterjohns explanation:
http://blog.cholesterol-and-health.com/2010/12/meeting-choline-requirement-eggs-organs.html
A little off-topic for this post but I wanted to give an update on my recent foray into Intermittent Fasting. I was SURE that I could avoid any of the downfalls of IF that I had experienced previously, but sure enough, I started having irregular heartbeats again so after about 3 weeks or so, I gave up. It just isn't worth it. I ate like a pig in the evenings, making sure to eat something throughout my eating window, even if I wasn't hungry but I just wasn't feeling well. I have to admit that I was drinking coffee during the undereating period during the day to quelch any hunger and even occasionally eating a small snack like a handful of almonds or an apple. It just wasn't meant to be. Sorry Chief…I tried.
Choline. Choline. Choline. Choooooleeeeen! I'm beggin' of you please don't take mah maaaaan!
Sorry, I love me some Dolly Parton.
Isn't soy lecithin choline? Isn't that fucking in everything? Last time I looked soy lecithin was in candy bars. Doesn't seem like something we need to worry about.
Hey, Real Will caffeine on an empty tummy is some bad mojo for me. Can't do it. I never thought light snacks were out of the question on Chief style IF. Portable foods, like pemican are ok, cause the warriors coulda carried those. That was theory anyway.
What about the Indian women? I imagine they had access to food all day long? Wonder what their eating patterns were.
Hey Jenny, that came out wrong the way I wrote it. The coffee to quelch the hunger was probably a negative. The small snack during the day was probably a positive. The way I wrote it, it sounds like I was lumping them together in the negative bin.
Maybe a little piece of meat here and there would have been better than fruit or almonds. Don't know. If I have to watch how I eat that closely, that's not very sustainable for me.
Stephen Guynet from Whole Health Source just had a post about an email interview that he did with a guy from Kitava. He said that Kitavans eat a good breakfast and dinner and light snack type of lunch, like fruit. It's funny because that is how I eat on the weekends basically…a huge breakfast and then a late dinner (also usually pretty big). Maybe I should do KIF (Kitavan Intermittent Fasting), LOL!
@the real will YES I think KIF is a great idea. For me, I fast without thinking about it and the meal pattern you describe is mostly what I do. If I have early yoga, just a small piece of fruit is breakfast, but I eat afterwards.
Just follow your body, I think it knows what it needs when we really tune in and let it tell us.
You're right Debbie…I'm not very good at listening to my body. I'm always trying to force something. Maybe I'll get it in my old age, LOL!
I see what you're saying Real Will.
KIF sounds great. That's what I do on vacation. Big huge mofo breakfast. Really late, huge lunch with maybe a snack like crackers and cheese before bed.
The Vacation Diet. I like it Jenny. Work on it wouldja!
It works best if you are staying at a B&B where they give you a big ass breakfast as part of your room rate. Can't do it in England, though despite the preponderance of B&Bs because weirdly its impossible to get late lunch there. They have these really rigid meal times and more often than not we find ourselves at a with no options but fish and chips. Our best application of this system was at a B&B in Wisconsin where we could to to the "Early Bird" seating at a fancy pants bistro. We were the only people in the place under 70. That really makes you feel glamorous which is also a bonus.
? ???? ???? ??????? ???????, ?? ????? ????????, ? ???? ??? (?????-????????) ?????????? ? ????? ??????????, ?????? ?????? ???????: ?? ?? ????????? ?? ???????? (???????? ??? ??? ????? ?????????). ??????? ????????????? ? ?????? ??????, ??????? ??????????????? ? ?? ?????? ??????? ?????? ??? ???????????. ?? ? ??? ?? ?????, ? ?? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ???. ? ??????? ???? ????????, ?? ????, ??? ??? ????. ???????? ???? ???????? ??, ??? ? ????????? ?????? ???? ? ????? ????????? ???????? ?? ?????? ???????? ????????.|?????? ???? ????? ? ????? ?????,?????? ?? ????? ????? ????? 3?. ?????? ??? ???? ?????????., ? ?????? ??????? ?? ? ??? ??????????? ?? ????? ? ?????, ? ?????? ?? ??? ???????? ,?? ???? ??? ? ????? 5 ??? ? ???,?????????? ? ???? 0. ??? 36 ??? ??? 48. ??? ???????|? ? ????! ????? ???? ? ????????. ?????? ????? ??????? ???????,????????????, ????… ?? ?????. ?? ??????? ? ?????? ?????? ?? ???? – ????? ???? ?????, ???? ???????? ??, ?????? ?? ????? ? ????? ????????? ? ????? ?? ???? ??????? ? ???? ?????? ???? ????????? (??? ??????…..?, ???????? ???????? – ??? ?????) ? ??? ????????????-???????????, ?? ????? ? ?????????.
[IMG]http://2nt.ru/images/logoicon2.png[/IMG]
[IMG]http://v7em.com/go/head.gif[/IMG]
?? ?? ?????????:
????? ?????? nudism , ??????? ???????? ???????????? ????? ????? , dao bdsm , ?????????? ?????????? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ? ?. ?.