Warning all Vietnamese people! Ray Peat says that people in?countries that eat a lot of full-fat dairy products are lean, and that starch is more fattening than sugar and seems like the reason for the rising obesity rate in the United States. Put the rice down, and swap it out with Haagen Dazs ice cream or else you guys are gonna get fat!
Sorry, but I had to go there. I visited Vietnam?in my mid-20’s?and remember a group of young guys in their early 20’s?in some sort of Navy or something cruising up to the beach I was hanging out on one day. The boys jumped off the boat and started running around tackling each other in their Speedos and other weird things that only someone who has traveled to Vietnam could?grasp’the true strangeness of. Anyway, even though I was 5’9″, 175 pounds soaking wet,’several of the boys ran up to me, asked me how old I was, and started pinching the 1-inch of extra fat around my abdomen and laughing. They of course?played with my arm hair too, which seems?almost like a pasttime of Vietnamese citizens in the presence of an apelike foreigner like myself.
Anyway, the point of the story is that, even though I was lean by American standards, and didn’t consider myself fat at all, I was still fat enough for these boys to look at it like it was some kind of novelty – like they had never seen a guy my age with a body fat percentage above 10%. And I must say, during that trip I did not see a single male with a waist that appeared larger than mine, which was somewhere between 33 and 34 inches at the time. This?was typical of every rice-based culture I have?ever had the opportunity to see (I have visited 7 Asian countries), with the exception of Japan – where at least you did see an?occasional overweight person.
With that, we will resume our starch vs. sugar conversation and breakdown or Ray Peat’s article Glycemia, Starch, and Sugar in Context.
“More important than the physiological vacuity of a simple glycemic measurement was the ideology within which the whole issue developed, namely, the idea that diabetes (conceived as chronic hyperglycemia) is caused by eating too much sugar, i.e., chronic hyperglycemia the illness is caused by the recurrent hyperglycemia of sugar gluttony. The experiments of Bernardo Houssay (1947 Nobel laureate) in the 1940s, in which sugar and coconut oil protected against diabetes, followed by Randle’s demonstration of the antagonism between fats and glucose assimilation, and the growing recognition that polyunsaturated fatty acids cause insulin resistance and damage the pancreas, have made it clear that the dietetic obsession with sugar in relation to diabetes has been a dangerous diversion that has retarded the understanding of degenerative metabolic diseases.”
Peat is getting onto something with this passage. Perhaps the 2nd largest pseudoscientific sasquatch of them all (behind the belief that eating saturated fat and cholesterol is the cause of heart disease), is that eating carbohydrate somehow causes insulin resistance, metabolic syndrome, and type 2 diabetes after the insulin mechanism ?wears out? from repeated carbohydrate ingestion ? sugar in particular. It doesn’t. In fact, fat competes and interferes with glucose’s journey out of the bloodstream and into cells, which is why the hormone cortisol, which dumps fatty acids into the blood, is such a powerful root cause of insulin resistance as Peat goes on to discuss.
“Starch and glucose efficiently stimulate insulin secretion, and that accelerates the disposition of glucose, activating its conversion to glycogen and fat, as well as its oxidation. Fructose inhibits the stimulation of insulin by glucose, so this means that eating ordinary sugar, sucrose (a disaccharide, consisting of glucose and fructose), in place of starch, will reduce the tendency to store fat. Eating ?complex carbohydrates,? rather than sugars, is a reasonable way to promote obesity. Eating starch, by increasing insulin and lowering the blood sugar, stimulates the appetite, causing a person to eat more, so the effect on fat production becomes much larger than when equal amounts of sugar and starch are eaten. The obesity itself then becomes an additional physiological factor; the fat cells create something analogous to an inflammatory state. There isn’t anything wrong with a high carbohydrate diet, and even a high starch diet isn’t necessarily incompatible with good health, but when better foods are available they should be used instead of starches. For example, fruits have many advantages over grains, besides the difference between sugar and starch. Bread and pasta consumption are strongly associated with the occurrence of diabetes, fruit consumption has a strong inverse association.”
I have no idea what planet Peat was on when he wrote this paragraph. It makes absolutely no sense and is totally incongruent with reality. The meal that produces the most postprandial insulin is a high-starch, low-fat meal. Interestingly, a high-starch, low-fat diet, during overfeeding, has been shown to be the least fattening ? corresponding with the higher insulin levels. http://www.ajcn.org/content/62/1/19.full.pdf+html?At the same calorie levels, the subjects with the lowest insulin levels (because they were eating more calories as fat and thus not spiking insulin as high) stored more fat, had less of an increase in thermogenesis (heat production), and less of an increase in lean body mass.
A rise in insulin causing more fat storage? This just doesn’t make sense. It should cause more muscle storage and less fat storage, as insulin, if anything, is the primary anabolic muscle storage hormone. Insulin does not cause carbohydrates to be converted to fat, and the little bit of carbohydrate that may be converted to fat is a very inefficient process compared to storing fat that you ingest as fat that is already pre-packaged and ready to find its home in adipose tissue.
Increasing insulin makes a person eat more? This really pisses me off. That’s like saying that stapling someone’s stomach makes them eat more, as both stapling your stomach and insulin are known to have an anti-hunger effect. Sure, inject insulin into someone without carbohydrate being ingested along with it, and they will get super hungry from blood glucose dropping to dangerous levels ? appetite is stimulated because it’s a better option for the body than dying. But the normal rise and fall of insulin and blood sugar levels to baseline (not below baseline as is commonly seen in hypoglycemia after sugar ingestion) in response to eating is not something that should be construed as appetite-promoting.
Of course, this is only a glimpse of the frustration I have with this myopic view of one isolated and rather insignificant variable. It ignores the more complex science of satiety, which doesn’t have much to do with how much insulin you produce after eating a meal, and a lot more to do with the palatability of the food, water content, fiber content, chewing time, particle size, and countless other factors that affect the dopaminergic system and beyond ? including even lighting, social setting, food texture, salt content, packaging, and so on. One biggie that Peat doesn’t account for is the appetite stimulation caused by sweetness, which fructose has the most of in the carbohydrate realm. Starch is not sweet. What, are we gonna call shit fattening if we find out it triggers a greater rise in insulin upon ingestion vs. an isocaloric amount of apple pie a la mode?
One really needs to look at the whole picture. A person who is susceptible to fat gain (which I propose is, in many cases, a person who eats out of addiction to satisfy reward centers in the brain vs. eating strictly to satisfy physiological appetite) can easily get fat eating to appetite of a diet?containing lots of burgers, pizza, pork ribs, soda, beer, ice cream, chicken wings, French fries, chocolate, peanut butter, apple juice, milkshakes, bread, pasta, and potato chips because this diet as a whole promotes greater calorie consumption without much of a corresponding rise in metabolic rate or drop in appetite. Even I, with an average rectal temperature during the day of?around 100 degrees F can gain fat rapidly eating a diet like that, because my calorie consumption goes to the stratosphere and I even feel MORE hungry than I do eating 2,000 fewer calories of less stimulating foods (I even start to get major hunger pangs in the late evening when I do that consistently for a week or longer).
“Although pure fructose and sucrose produce less glycemia than glucose and starch do, the different effects of fruits and grains on health can’t be reduced to their effects on blood sugar.”
Ah, finally talking some sense here!
“After decades of ?education? to promote eating starchy foods, obesity is a bigger problem than ever, and more people are dying of diabetes than previously. The age-specific incidence of most cancers is increasing, too, and there is evidence that starch, such as pasta, contributes to breast cancer, and possibly other types of cancer.”
Oh yeah, there’s a lot of scientific integrity in that paragraph. You know we all followed the dietician’s advice to the letter. Oh wait, the biggest changes in the diet in recent times are an increase in sugar, poultry, and vegetable oil intake ? which displaced the mostly wheat, corn, and potato-based diet of the United States prior to that. But even that is probably less significant than the fact that we started eating more food at restaurants and less at home, we saw the introduction of powerful flavor enhancers like MSG, aspartame, ?natural flavors,? ?artificial flavors,? and the increased sweetness of high fructose corn syrup ? not to mention the general increase in the sophistication of the food scientists who have had several more ?decades? to perfect their craft at making ?products? more interesting than old-fashioned food.
“The epidemiology would appear to suggest that complex carbohydrates cause diabetes, heart disease, and cancer. If the glycemic index is viewed in terms of the theory that hyperglycemia, by way of ?glucotoxicity,? causes the destruction of proteins by glycation, which is seen in diabetes and old age, that might seem simple and obvious.”
True, unless you turn the epidemiological data right-side-up and see that the eaters of starch-based diets all over the world ? particularly Asians and Africans, have far lower rates of diabetes, heart disease, and most cancers ? especially those living in the greatest isolation from food ?products.
“But there are many reasons to question that theory.”
I wouldn’t consider it a valid theory at all anymore, especially when people eating starch-based diets have far lower levels of fasting and postprandial glucose levels ? showing clearly that such a diet, when looked at as a whole, lowers ?glucotoxicity? and glycation. Meanwhile, real practicing doctors like Terry Shintani and John McDougall are lowering glucose levels, including overcoming type 2 diabetes, with starch-based diets (note, I’m sure a fruit-based diet could perform just as well).
Anyway, that’s enough for the sugar vs. starch masturdebate. There are advantages and disadvantages to all forms of carbohydrates. What is probably the most useful to you as an individual looking to improve your health is finding which type of carbohydrate triggers the greatest heat production ? keeping fingers and toes warm in between meals and body temperature elevated, and seems to yield the greatest amount of health benefits. But even this is usually a mixed bag. Displacing tons of starch with fruit and juice, for me, has had many health positives ? everything from increases in vasodilation, energy levels, exercise recovery, heat production, breathing, and, shockingly, a complete elimination of tooth pain. But it has also given me more pimples on my back and gums that bleed more easily. Even in my mouth it has had both a positive and a negative effect! Ha! A blend of?plenty of starch and sugars seems to be the best fit for me personally, and is the most palatable,’socially functional, and economical.
So play with this for yourself, just don’t play WITH yourself. Actually, see which type of carbohydrate or combination of carbohydrates?makes you want to play with yourself the most, and stick with it!
Stay tuned for the next Peat post, as we get into Peat’s more interesting views about sugar and carbon dioxide, the superiority of glucose oxidation, and the role polyunsaturated fat plays in insulin resistance.
How to RAISE YOUR METABOLISM.
Nice deconstruction!
Ok, I have to say that when I was chowing down on sweet potatoes and varioius yams with either butter or coconut oil and salt, I would feel a bit hungry afterwards, more of a craving sort of hunger. I have no idea why.
I do know that eating a bit of ice cream with some salty almonds does NOT make this happen, nor does eating a bit of a chocolate bar.
Nor does eating fruity things. Lately I have started eating some cheese when I eat fruit and that is a stellar combo.
so I vote Sugar.
xo
hagatha
Mateo,
You must my brother from another mother. I do quite well on a starch + sugar diet. At least 35% of my diet needs to be homemade ice cream or else I wither away into nothingness. Well, maybe nothing that dramatic happens, but I do crave ice cream.
Oddly enough, my "intolerance" to mass amounts of dairy seems to have disappeared. So have all of the crappy ice cream substitutes I used to eat! :-)
I think it's misleading to say that countries with starch-based diets, like Asian countries, have practically nonexistent diabetes and overweight issues and just leave it at that, making it seem that starch is the reason for this. There's a lot of other factors contributing to that ASIDE from the whole starch thing. They eat a lot of fish. And they don't eat a lot, period. A lot of those same countries are fairly poor for the most part…so what exactly are they going to overeat on??
I'm just very confused. I haven't been a regular reader, but the recent posts I have read seem to be very contradictory to what you first were posting regarding eating fat to burn fat (in addition to the whole metabolism/temp raising). You seem more focused on fruits and carbs and less a fan of fats. Am I wrong???? I'm just really confused.
Devon- another reason that probably contributes to skinny Asians is that they are more active generally.
But also, rice tends to be hypoallergenic and benign, as opposed the wheat and corn, thus rice causes less inflammation. Inflammation can cause weight gain via a variety of routes.
Personally I feel light on a rice diet, heavy on a diet of wheat or lot's of fats. I still gain water weight when I carb load and post workout, but I flush it out better and retain less. My body has a healthier equilibrium or stasis on high rice.
I would like to eat more fruits, and am particularly interested in fufu, steamed and pounded plaintain and yam, an African dish. But I tend to need more sodium than potassium (damaged adrenals I suppose), so if I get too much potassium it seems to throw me out of whack.
Interesting story from Vietnam, and kind of the opposite of my experience in Thailand. I was there in 2005 and at the time was very thin (90lbs at
5ft 4). I was startled by how 'not thin' most of the people were–and I traveled all over. Some were the typical lean Asian of the stereotype, but many, and especially the younger ones, were heavy and plump. They all, _constantly_, commented on how thin I was–it was like a conversation opener, like arm hairs, I guess.
There did seem to be a lot of junk food around, both western junk food and fried food stands, which may be different than Vietnam. But the expression for 'eat a meal' is 'eat rice' and it was clearly the staple for most folks…
One other thing I want to ask: Matt, you say:
'…the little bit of carbohydrate that may be converted to fat is a very inefficient process compared to storing fat that you ingest as fat that is already pre-packaged and ready to find its home in adipose tissue.'
I'm confused by this. I thought that dietary fat was broken down to fatty acids and glycerol, not stored directly in adipose tissue?
As for 'finding what works for you,' it's sure been fascinating to see the contrasting experiences of people who've commented here.
At this point, I just know that I'm feeling miles better having cut my fat intake way low and eating mostly starch, but I felt good on fruit for years, so I'm gearing up to reincorporate that and see how it goes.
I think the Thai's eat a lot of fast food now. Thailand has become so Westernized, surely not everyone is living on rice and coconut curries anymore.
I know that for myself, I would have great difficulty getting fat on traditional Thai food. I would have to eat a lot and not move at all.
The traditional Thai diet got most of it's fat from coconut and some hog and fish thrown in. Unfortunately that is being displaced by PUFA's.
Yes, took some scientific liberties there Ela for simplicity's sake. But we do know that the body can store fat more effectively than it can convert other foods to fat and then store them. More energy is lost in that process.
Ryan-
Brothers no doubt. I saw you wrote about Gorske recently too when I was admiring my SEO ranking for "Don Gorske" on google. Well played. You'll never get me outta that 2 spot though. Yes that is a challenge.
Devon81-
I think the confusion comes from this not being your average everyday site. I want to confuse people, because those who "know" a lot about health and nutrition are deceiving themselves.
At the end of the day, what brings balance to one person's system can be the exact opposite of another persons. If anything, my greatest contribution is getting people to focus on how their bodies are functioning and working on bringing that in order instead of putting all of their eggs in one set nutritional or health ideology.
As for the Vietnam conversation, I apologize if I made it seemed like starch was the reason for the leanness of Asians. I thought I made it clear later that it had more to do with palatability and food products than some lesser factor like starch vs. sugar. It was Peat that made the great error that starch was the cause of increasing obesity rates recently. I was just clowning him on this ridiculous and poorly-supported assertion.
Ela-
You must have been quite anorexic, as I didn't see any fat people in Thailand. No BMI's over 30 or anything like that.
I traveled across Asia for a month in 2007 and concur with what you are saying Matt. Sure, I met a few overweight people, but I did not see any obese people at all. In fact, weight issues seemed so rare indeed that Asians do not seem to have manners about this issue.
At the time, I was an undiagnosed hypo so even my low carb diet could barely stem the tide of blubber and I was about 160lbs at 5'5". The ladies who massaged me asked me was I pregnant and when I said no they told me that I must be drinking too much beer. Little did they know I a) NEVER drink beer and b) was dieting every day just to stay overweight, as opposed to obese.
They all seemed to eat plenty of food though; just that it was rice, fish, pork, chicken, fruit and veg. Their diet was low in gluten,sugar and processed food.
As for the glucose and insulin issue; now I am confused: is low fasting insulin not a good thing? What about glucose? Should that be low in fasting? What about HBA1C?
Thanks, Matt–your first two paragraphs to Devon81 are right on the money.
Interesting that it takes less energy to store dietary fat as tissue fat than it does from other sources. This might be worth some more talk, especially in conjunction with the 'insulin spike is a good thing,' since there's so much hype about carbs driving the fat train…
That's a good point that how thin I was at the time might have skewed my perception of how 'not thin' the Thais were. But at 90lbs back then, I was doing _a lot_ better than I had for years! It was mostly the schoolkids that surprised me as plump but there was also a landlady a place I stayed in Chantaburi who was large (not obese, but heavy).
You accuse Peat, "…ignores the more complex science.." of doing exactly what you did last post with your arrogant joke about how I should be scared of "burning sugar" during exercise after I suggested, with evidence, that fatty acid oxidation may be superior. Let me ask you something: Do you hook yourself up to a sugar-water IV at night to prevent "burning fat" while you sleep? Sipping on juice all day isn't getting the job done?
You said, "A rise in insulin causing more fat storage? This just doesn’t make sense."
Insulin secretion isn't sufficient to make someone fat, but if you don't think that one of insulin's functions is to store energy in adipocytes, then you shouldn't write about nutrition.
I don't have a nutrition blog, but anyone who reads my comments would know that I eat a variety of macros and have never acknowledged a "master" hormone/nutrient/etc as this blog has done several times over the last couple years. Any opposition is met with a condescending joke and little, if any, counter evidence.
I like debating with some of the commenters, but someone who uses arrogant putdowns and gives contradicting definitive statements every few months doesn't deserve credibility.
Matt arrogant? Nawwwww ;)
Now that I think about it, I have no idea what is true regarding fat being stored as fat. Fuhrman and McDougall say you can biopsy fat from yourself and you can tell whether it came from pork, olive oil, or whatever, because it will have changed so little. Then Taubes says that fat just does not ever get stored as fat ever.
It seems unlikely that both of those could be true.
Is there a site or book out there that explains this? Sounds more like the job of a textbook than a nutrition author, but anything would do.
grass fed momma,
I too am achieving some calming satiety with fruit and cheese.
Potatoes with butter and or cheese are filling but I crave something sweet afterward.
Ice cream is God.
I'm waking up with temps in the 98s and I'm only on my third week with Josh Rubin. Hot chicks' club is in my future!
@ Lisa, HOT! love it, keep letting us know how you are doing. I can't wait to see how a few months on this will affect you, I hope you feel better and better.
xxo
Lady Haga
I found this Ray Peat quote that is false. It is unrelated to Matt's article but does cast a shadow on Ray's credibility. It is from his article titled "Intelligence and Metabolism."
In his article he discusses William James Sidis who was a child prodigy and the youngest person to ever earn a PhD from Harvard. Sidis's father was a Harvard Professor named Boris Sidis. This is a quote from the article:
"Sidis, who grew up under intense pressure and social isolation and in extreme poverty, died at the age of 46."
William James Sidis did not grow up in extreme poverty. That is false. His mother was a trained medical doctor and, as I stated previously, his father was a Harvard Professor. The family ran a sanitarium in Massachusetts.
I would like to second what Jim said. Can the fat that we eat tell us what we were eating? What an excellent question!
"So play with this for yourself, just don’t play WITH yourself."
Awwwwww….. way to spoil the fun.
Hai Boieeees
"inject insulin into someone without carbohydrate being ingested along with it, and they will get super hungry from blood glucose dropping to dangerous levels ? appetite is stimulated because it’s a better option for the body than dying"
This made perfect sense why I keep getting hypoglycemia from eating potatoes or drinking milk. @Michael who while back concluded it was due to lack of eating additional protein -I found that silly but finally got a sensible answer.
I find it funny when people think grains are bad… I used to live in India 11 years ago and back then I don't recall seeing more than 5-6 fat people in my life. And where I lived most people could afford to eat wheat -rice is the affordable staple for poor people. But I still had never seen more than a handful of fat people at all over the time I lived there. To note, there are a lot of very busy restaurants but still no fat people.
Since then McD's, Pizza Huts, and western fast food places have popped up and local fat trend has risen considerable especially in populated cities. So why people get fat!
Also, we (my entire city of Pune and other places) always ate a diet high in PUFA's using primarily peanut oil. In different places they use different oils -sunflower, sesame, etc. Still had no fat people until western foods and fast food places popped up.
@Matt -I was getting pimples too but they have diminished. Instead of fruit juice I have been drinking maple syrup through out the day (half cup at most).
Pretty much if you keep an open heart and stop demonizing certain foods, things take care of themselves.
Peace out jiggas
Jannis,
In the comments section of the last post you mentioned that you eat about 90% sugar and very little starch, but I'm just wondering if you would care to share what your source of sugar and types of fruit are? Because, let's be honest even though Peat prefers fruit over starch, there are many fruits that Peat is against and really only a handful of them that he recommends.
Good post, Matt. Curious what your response to john above is. I also have gotten the sense that there're lots of fads du jour around here given sometimes disproportionate weight just because they're the new it thing. Like palatability and dopamine, maybe, which is now super-master I guess to leptin or the former insulin greenhouse, or TXNIP or something. I support the journey and inquiry, but am not under any pretense that we're anywhere near here at 180 to any sort of final answer.
What do you think the role is of placebo/nocebo effect here is? When people believe a food or macronutrient or whatever is good or bad from them, and they feel great or lousy after eating it, how can we tell whether that's just because of their belief in its effect? I guess in my experience , it's just taken time, and working to actively undermine any taboos creates more space for me to really just pay attention to how I feel, and not convince myself of an effect one way or another. But still most of it has been trial by fire- I imagined, maybe even did I feel great as a vegan for a bunch of years, and the same doing WAPFy stuff, then low carb paleo. All awesome, for a while, but I keep wondering whether I was just clouding my judgment because I wanted to believe so bad. I think many folks, myself included, want to believe: 'I have the answer, finally, and now I'm really healthy and was just faking it before.' But chances are, with a track record like mine, things may be upside down again in the near future. Maybe intuitive eating addresses that, because it works itself against the constant of our bodies feedback, and if you can actually tune into that, you might get somewhere good. But still, people can convince themselves of a lot, and self-fulfilling prophecies abound.
Hey Matt, great series here. Can you elaborate on what a typical day of eating in Vietnam would be like? Is it mostly just rice with some vegetables and fish? Not that I'm going to try and copy that, I'm just curious. Thanks
With you writings, I think I'm going to back off on my refined sugar binge (lots of frosted flakes and fruity pebbles) and keep it to fruit and 100% juice.
(Damn you Blogger, why do you keep deleting my comments!)
Another thing, on the addiction/palatability tip: I posted this months ago, maybe during the initial PCAT time, anyone hear of Rat Park. From Ran Prieur, one more time:
—
May 16. We've all been told that the addictiveness of a drug is in the drug, and that if, say, opium were legal then we'd all become addicts. A Canadian psychologist, Bruce Alexander, wanted to test his hypothesis that addiction is caused by a bad environment, so he set up the Rat Park experiment, in which rats were given very good living conditions, and a choice between plain water and morphine water. "Nothing that we tried produced anything that looked like addiction in rats that were housed in a reasonably normal environment." Not only that, but rats that were forcibly addicted and then moved to Rat Park still chose the plain water.
Still, as an anomalist, I can't help noticing: no matter how you define "high quality of life", you can find examples of humans who had it and still got addicted to cocaine or heroin. I'd like to see a historical study of alcoholism: to what extent did alcohol spread by destroying traditional cultures, and to what extent did it spread by moving in after they had already been destroyed? Or we could ask the same thing about wheat addiction.
—–
That seems like a potentially big part of the picture. Certainly palatability is important in the context of addiction, but what else might be at work that, like all the rest, has changed in the last hundred years or so that has made us more susceptible to addiction. This guy Alexander seems to think that things like community fragmentation accounts hugely for this. That would dovetail with the idea that low pleasure indigenous foods helped make native folks super susceptible to obesity in the face of modern foods. It might even supersede it as a dominant factor. Who knows?
So again, just echoing from up above- we don't know a whole lot, and so it's imprudent, I'd say, to become convinced that we have enough of the picture to write the script, and especially unwise to dismiss anything but our pet theories when challenged. I know you, Matt, more than most, invite that cognitive dissonance, and just want to keep you on your toes.
One last thing- Peat in those quotes keeps mentioning breads and grains. Any high carb paleo dude worth his weight in tubers would quickly point out that grains are not synonymous with starch, and the problems he cites might have plenty to do with gluten, lectins, phytates, etc. and not the complex carbohydrate portion of thefoods mentioned.
"And Kent? Stop playing with yourself!" – Jesus.
/subscribing
P.S. Maybe when Peat was saying "starch" he was talking only about Fruity Pebbles and Cheeze-its?
Uh, nevermind.
For the record, Sidis never got his PhD. Fact check fail! Sorry.
Narenda, did they eat much sugar in Pune with their diet high in PUFAs?
Narendra…spelling check fail! My bad. Sorry again.
Narendra,
There's some evidence that N6 fats cause multi-generational obesity:
http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2010/04/do-seed-oils-cause-multi-generational.html
(How do you make links on here?)
i love Rob A's comment and I love Ran Prieur! everyone should read some of his posts
Rob A just wondering what is it that you do for money, since your read Ran's site? I haven't made any money in 7 months but am trying to look for what he calls the optimal lazy man job where i can just be on the internet all day or something like that.
Rob A. was the first person who introduced me to Ran Prieur. Rob posted a link several months ago to Ran Prieur, and I scanned through most of his essays.
Ran has some interesting ideas. Several people had independently developed the same ideas as Ran Prieur. Those people include John Hasnas, Alex Strekal, Roderick Long, AJ, and Ryan Faulk.
Rob-
John's comment is pretty much out of left field. I don't have much of a response to it. What I mentioned in the last post was not a put down but a lighthearted remark about the type of exercise John does, which moves the body towards favortism of glucose oxidation. He made the argument that fat oxidation might be superior, and if that's the case, then long walks at a moderate pace would be the ultimate form of exercise – steering the body away from glucose oxidation and towards fat oxidation.
In my experience, eating a high fat, low-carb diet and doing long-duration activity in the "fat burning zone" (moderate heart rate) was the ultimate way to achieve leanness without the slightest bit of hunger. It did not yield health, sex drive fell and vasoconstriction increased, digestion went to hell, sleep went to hell, and exercise performance was very poor, as to be expected of fat-fueled exercise.
As far as insulin is concerned, it is an anabolic, building hormone. But with equal calorie levels, those with lower insulin levels store less muscle and more fat, so calling insulin the primary driver of fat storage would be an error would it not?
As far as changing my mind – my style is to get really excited about a new theory that makes sense, and then immediately start trying to break it down. That's what science is. You create a hypothesis and then you try to shoot it down. I apologize that my site is not like others, in which I ignore contradictory points of view in an effort to blindly support a pre-conceived hypothesis. Then the information would be the same all the time and no one would be confused. It would be like religion. And everyone could come here to get saved and bow down before me.
Narendra –
Very interesting comment. I do think that fast food, because it is designed to convince our reward centers that it is superior to regular food, is a more likely candidate for the reason why obesity is taking off. Still, it takes generations for polyunsaturated fats found in peanut oil to increase obesity rate if that is more a central root cause.
But there are endless possibilities. Take television, video games, and internet for example, which are the lifestyle version of fast food. They stifle a person's natural desire for physical activity.
Put someone in a quiet room and they'll get bored and want to move around. Put them in front of a television and they will seemingly go into a physical torpor and stay there for hours without moving a muscle. I imagine modern food and modern lifestyle work synergistically to make an active lifestyle on simple food very unappealing.
Lynn-
Probably best to have low fasting insulin and high postprandial insulin – a marker of good insulin sensitivity and an appropriate post meal response (quickly bringing blood sugar back to baseline).
Jim-
Funny ain't it? But yes, the fats you eat reflect the fats in your tissues very carefully. We also know that insulin can be very low and you can store fat at a very rapid rate. But low-carb diets kill appetite which is why weight loss is often triggered by low-carb diets. Same reason low-fat diets do the same. Or liquid diets. Or mono diets. Or carb cycling or food combining.
Apologizes in advance if anyone has asked this before but how the hell do you test your insulin level? We can easily test blood glucose, but insulin?
And if the bg is low, does that mean we are healthy or does that mean insulin is overloading us?
confusahaggy
RobA,
That wouldn't be a relevant argument against Peat. His main focus is on the different effects sugars(fructose and sucrose) have compared to starch(pure glucose). He would say his argument hold even if you took pure refined glucose with all of those substances you mentioned removed.
The Paleos are also getting a clue and realizing that the safest starch is white rice, not potatoes and other tubers. I am very happy to see that the Paleo community is moving away from the tuber dogma, because many people do not tolerate them well.
Grassfedmomma – Sadly you can't test insulin at home yet; only in a lab.
Hey JT,
Awhile back you said you were eating a high-starch, lower-fat diet with lots of white rice. Do you still eat this way?
I'm Asian and have eaten a high-fat, lower-carb diet for 7-8 years. I'm thinking about moving towards a high-starch diet, but I'm nervous about eating lots of white rice. I feel it would be so inferior to brown rice!
So how can a person know if they have too much insulin?
Oh god, I feel like I just ran a moronathon in a big fat circle.
It's this, it's that.
FUCK IT ALL.
sorry, I get all worked up when I can't get what I want.
:-/
Matty, you know I love you. I didn't even read the exchange in the previous post. I was just responding to John's question above because I get the sense that sometimes there are blinders you display that I want to call attention to. I think it's awesome that you are so super open to contrary ideas, truly. Your commitment to it exceeds just about anyone else I can think of. But again, I was responding to the sense that the topic du jour frequently takes first billing here, at the expense of alternate views, which may have real legitimacy that you just haven't caught on to yet. (I'm thinking of fructose as an example of something you about-faced on).
But really amigo, do whatever. I don't want you to apologize for getting excited about stuff and then trying to poke holes in it. Awesome. I will keep on pointing out where I think you're acting dismissive in an unwarranted way, though. Because like I mentioned before, I want this 180 thing to be the best it can be, and I'd rather poke holes in your work and have you patch 'em up than have others do it and write you off.
danimal,
For most of the last year I worked a 'straight' job, 40 hours/wk at a credit union. I left there recently and am likely to be doing some season work in upstate NY (IrondequoitInn dot com for anyone who wants to come visit- it's beautiful here). Before that I did some work-exchange internships at a permaculture homestead, interspersed with temp work scanning documents. I like those gigs a lot- super low stress, decent pay, the chance to listen to podcasts and mp3s all day and learn a bunch. Coupled with frugality, those gigs allowed me to get by for periods at a time without work and without becoming destitute. Less safety net, of course, but that's why developing invisible structures of support and contribution that you can lean on outside the cash economy is valuable.
Interestingly, though, my anti-work ethic has mitigated some, and I'm drawn to what Matt and Uncle Ray have been talking about recently- finding work that is engaging and meaningful and thus spiritually regenerative (and possibly socially and ecologically as well). Hopefully one can find a way to be remunerated enough to keep going too. Still trying to cultivate that stillness to determine what my vocational passion will be. We'll see.
Nevertheless, I think a long old period of not working and passing through the depression and angst that comes with that frequently, and allowing the chance to de-institutionalize is important. I think that creates space to take joy in contributing, outside of the world of toxic 'shoulds' and 'have to-s'.
Organism as a Whole,
What are some of the overlaps between Ran Prieur and the folks you mentioned? Ran has lots of ideas, and I'm curious which spheres he shares with those others.
JT,
Fair enough- that may be what Peat would say, in which case I would probably disagree or at least ask for more evidence beyond the associations made. Until I have reason to, insomuch as I would accept their relevance, I would be inclined to attribute those ill effects not to starch as a whole.
Agreed that white rice' entry into the paleo playbook is pretty cool. I sure do love the stuff myself.
RobA "I like those gigs a lot- super low stress, decent pay, the chance to listen to podcasts and mp3s all day and learn a bunch"
yes that is exactly what i'm looking for haha. the problem is my resume looks too nice since i tried way too hard when i was young. should i just delete the fact i went to college. how do you get those temp gigs? temp agency? and irodequoitinn, does that mean your in rochester? cuz that's where i'm from but i'm an idiot payin crazy rent in nyc for some reason.
danimal,
No, I went to college, too. But I'm young, and it's hard economic times, so temp gigs are justifiable even for the educated, it seems.
One gig I found through a local paper, and another was through a public university. Those are usually my first choice- colleges. Temp or otherwise, I've had good experiences working there.
Irondequoit Inn is in the Adirondacks, though I do hear that there's an Irondequoit town further upstate. I'm from Brooklyn originally, so I know what you mean when it comes to crazy NYC rent. Haven't paid rent there in four years I think, and it's only gone up since then.
My recommendation is just to talk about transitioning in your life, and wanting something time-limited that will offer you the flexibility you need to determine your direction. Something like that. Good luck, brother.
Johnny,
Yes, I still eat a high starch low fat diet with plenty of protein. I low carbed for a long time too, but I do MUCH better on high starch, and white rice in particular. I have been eating this way for the past 2 years without a problem.
I dont think it is a good idea to "pinball" back and forth between different diets like many people do around here. I prefer to find what works for myself and stick with it. This is stressful for the body, and so is rapid change. I like to up the carbs slowly, first at dinner, then lunch, then breakfast. I dont do well with high carb breakfast, I need protein for energy in the morning.
I dont worry about brown rice being better, I eat plenty of meat and veggies to get other nutrients. White rice tastes better and is a lot easier for me to digest. I would just eat whatever is easier on my digestion.
How old are you? Do you live in Asia?
JT,
I'm 27. Don't live in Asia, lived in the midwest all my life.
Eating a low-carb diet totally destroyed my health. And it's not like I was just eating chicken breast. I was eating lots of organs like liver, kidney, spleen, pancreas, bone marrow, etc.
The whole white rice vs. brown rice issue is interesting… I just can't get over the fact that white rice is a "refined food."
Asians prefer white rice (culturally it's always been a sign of wealth also), but what's funny is that as my parents' generation are getting older and having health problems, a lot of them are switching over to brown rice! LOL
I grew up eating white rice, but for the past few years I've eaten mostly brown rice. And now white rice isn't as appealing to me! So who knows… :D
By the way, how are you defining "low-fat"?
Johnny,
Don't worry about "refined" foods. Some foods are even poisonous if you dont refine them, like the starchy staple of the amazon. Many things are better with a little refining. Cream is a refined food, Butter is more refined than cream and better, ghee is even more refined and better than butter.
I would consider a diet low fat if it is under 20% of calories. I would say my diet is probably around 10-15 %.
I'm exploring the Peat plan as well and while I experienced minor benefits, I also got pimples on my shoulders, chest, and back. Historically my skin has always been my health indicator.
Ray Peat has some good recommendations but everything does not apply to everyone. You can't put everyone in the same box.
You can get fasting insulin tested at any private lab. Scroll down to the bottom of this page for a list of labs in the U.S.: http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/recommended-labwork/.
Rob-
That's pretty much how I did things during my 20's. I never worked more than 6 months a year. The first time I did was in 2008 – a year before I quit the workforce and starting doing nothing but 180 full time. I spent the rest of the year being a bum in cheap countries, camping/hiking, road-tripping, and visiting friends and family. It was a tough life!
But I was still very inspired by cooking and food at that point in my life, so my work, when I did do it, was very meaningful. The other work I did was as a Wilderness Ranger, which is the ultimate job for someone who doesn't know what they wanna be when they grow up.
You'll find inspiration when the time is right. Having fun gets really old by the time you start approaching 30. I know many things inspire you now, like health, permaculture, sustainability, etc. Things will take shape. The key for me has been to activily pursue my areas of interest. When interested in something, chase after it. For example, this summer I'm moving up to West Virginia to learn from some guy who is doing a form of nutritional therapy that I'm curious about. So why not?
JohnnyBoy-
I understand that stigma, but when you see that white rice came out as the most protective food in the China Study, it would be irrational to fear it.
I'd love to hear more details about how your perfect low-carb diet ruined your health too. Feel free to write something up and email it to me. I'd be more than happy to publish it on the blog and break some people's lame infatuation with caveman eating. I had the same experience, as you know. sacredself@gmail.com
@ Matt o JT:
Is it normal to experience water retention when switching to a high carb diet?…how long does it take the body to get use to and get rid of edema?
Matt said: You'll find inspiration when the time is right. Having fun gets really old by the time you start approaching 30. I know many things inspire you now, like health, permaculture, sustainability, etc. Things will take shape. The key for me has been to activily pursue my areas of interest. When interested in something, chase after it. For example, this summer I'm moving up to West Virginia to learn from some guy who is doing a form of nutritional therapy that I'm curious about. So why not?
Love it, Mateo. You're rad; a true inspiration.
Cecil,
I increased my carbs a couple of months ago and I would say it only took a few weeks to stop having the bloated feeling.
Jane
Rate of obesity is increasing In all over the countries. And may be the main reason for that is the food We keep on eating many fast food and other sugar products and which are responsible for the obesity.