In the world of health and nutrition, there is not much out there that is wackier than Doug Graham’s self-fabricated 80-10-10 raw vegan diet. Don’t get me wrong. I have actually been positively influenced by the diet in some ways, and have reviewed all of Doug Graham’s materials as well as that of many of his even wackier disciples ? including Durianrider of http://www.30bananasaday.com/ as well as Fred Patenaude (this guy actually appears to be sane), Michael Arnstein, Adam Panetta (kinda cool), and a handful of others. Heck, I’ve even watched a few videos by the Raw Brahs. They helped me to overcome my fruit phobia, which has proven to be a plus in my own personal healthscapades as of late.
The incorporation of absurd quantities of calorie-rich fruit and juice in my diet has decreased my allergies to pet dander, improved my breathing/asthma, cleared my nasal passages to such an extent that one person contacted me to tell me of the noticeable difference in my voice vs. older videos, improved the warmth of my toes (which occasionally felt slightly cool and clammy), gave me an increase in vascularity and vasodilation, and improved my exercise performance and recovery (although I’ve been doing very little lately other than chasing a Frisbee). I would also say that my skin looks noticeably younger, and, even though my teeth felt much worse for the first month or so ? my teeth feel about the best they’ve felt in the last several years (still brushing only a few times per week).
So yes, these 80-10-10 folks are not totally out of their minds, and I have no doubts that athletic performance can in many cases be made superior by a very carbohydrate-heavy diet. But, there is an extreme darkside to this diet. That’s what I want to discuss. There is plenty of 80-10-10 worship going on out there in the fruitarian inner circle. A heavy dose of both skepticism and reality is what I hope to offer here for those out there who are perhaps following that diet and having some health challenges come up. Hopefully this post will be a voice of reason for those finding the diet lacking, and who are only being told ?you’re not doing it right, you’re not doing it right? every time a problem arises.
Let me spell out the basics of the potential perils one could face on this diet and lifestyle promoted by Graham and his crackers?
My research has led me to believe that preserving a high metabolic rate and high body temperature is the essence of good health and delaying the aging process. You can read about that in how to RAISE YOUR METABOLISM. But Graham, in something he titled ?Cool Runnings? talks about how his diet and lifestyle helps to decrease body temperature to what he feels is the ideal body temperature ? about 93 degrees F (similar to the tree sloth ? the mammal with the lowest body temperature). It is true for the purposes of running or any endurance activity as I’ve stated many times before ? for best performance you want your body temperature and resting metabolism to be as low as is humanly possible. As you lose body fat to very low levels, typically body temperature plummets due to the drop in leptin. As you lose muscle mass either from a low protein diet, low-net calorie diet (raw food is less absorbable than cooked food), or endurance exercise ? body temperature falls even more. These are all adaptations that make it easier to perform endurance exercise because it enables a person to burn fewer calories per mile. The fewer calories you burn per mile, the less effort it takes to travel long distances ? and the fewer calories you burn per mile, the longer you can travel on one ‘tank.
I think this is one key, fundamental reason why those who stop doing endurance exercise due to burnout or injury tend to gain fat at an incredible rate ? but that is another conversation?
If you are an endurance or ultra-endurance athlete like Michael Arnstein ? your performance will be enhanced by eating a diet that is so incredibly effective for stripping away both body fat and muscle mass due to the extremely low levels of protein being taken in. From that vantage point, you can see why a fruitarian-ish diet would be a strong performance enhancer. It is the ultimate catabolic diet in which adequate energy for exercise is still being supplied (unlike just doing a water fast, which makes exercise impossible).
But this comes with metabolic penalty. When the metabolic rate falls, you notice things like being cold all of the time and having freezing cold hands and feet even in warm temperatures.
With a low metabolism, especially in the context of a vegan diet which greatly limits the body’s ability to manufacture cholesterol (the precursor to the steroid hormones), the rate of cholesterol conversion into highly beneficial, pro-longevity, pro-fertility, pro-sex drive, anti-autoimmunity hormones such as pregnenalone, progesterone, DHEA, and testosterone becomes greatly reduced. With this you see a predictable decline in sex drive in both men and women over time, lack of menstruation in women and other menstrual irregularities, and a host of other problems including a loss of skin elasticity and accelerated aging. You can see Arnstein talking about lowered sex drive here ? a result of being overly lean, extreme fat restriction, catabolic endurance exercise, and other facets of his diet and lifestyle that is a perfect anti-fertility cocktail?
In terms of aging ? while Doug Graham has an astounding level of fitness, athleticism, and agility for a man in his late 50’s, and I wouldn’t hesitate to take lessons from him on performing functional exercise for that purpose, comparing a recent video of him to a video 10 years ago…
?One has to wonder if Graham is competing for the title of world’s most rapidly-aging man. People who have met with him in person describe his skin as being extremely reptilian and aged ? something he blames on sun exposure. Oh, the diet is healthy as long as you stay out of the sun! Whee! Sounds awesome!
Keep in mind that Graham’s response to the diet is presumably the best-case scenario. Just like Sisson,’this is a?naturally healthy, elite athlete we’re talking about here – which isn’t always a result of the their diet and lifestyle nor can others expect similar results even if they do happen to be good (in Graham’s case,I would argue the results are not good, but I don’t give a flying rat’s hiney about?how many pullups a person can do – especially if they die?of a stroke before age 65, my official prediction for Graham).
With 80-10-10 you also see quite a bit of silliness, and the perpetuation of the belief that diseases like cancer are a result of eating impure or cooked foods. Nonsense. Cancer appears to be primarily a defect of cellular respiration and energy production ? a result of having a low body temperature, low production of the hormones of youth like DHEA and progesterone, and an impairment of the mitochondria’s ability to produce energy. Sure, many toxic compounds and estrogenic chemicals in the environment can do this. I’m not discounting that. But you can surely achieve this carcinogenic state without ever taking in a single bite of non-organic or cooked food. Having metabolism fall as it does in aging is what predisposes someone to cancer. Being old is the leading risk factor for cancer for that very reason, as a lowered metabolism is the body shutting down.
Of course, just having a low cholesterol level is a much greater risk factor for stroke and cancer than having a high level of cholesterol is a risk factor for heart disease. It’s not like, by having a low cholesterol level, you are somehow protected against disease. In many cases, it is quite the contrary ? especially on something like Graham’s 80-10-10 raw vegan diet in which cholesterol and fats are so restricted that the amount of cholesterol needed to synthesize steroid hormones properly is so limited as to cause the body to methodically shut down given sufficient time.
So whatever, I’m not going to go on and on about Graham and his crackers. Just remember that there is much more to health than losing some body fat and having your fitness levels improve in the short-run on 811rv. Fitness is certainly not a gauge for health as the recent death of the marathon queen Grete Waitz shows?
Short-term results and long-term results are often the exact opposite. If feeling better in the short-term was the key to health, we could all just take drugs. But unfortunately there is hell to pay for taking such a route, and I believe from what I’ve experienced, studied, and heard from others ? that 811rv has a dark side that rears its ugly head in the long-term, usually starting with small things like lack of morning wood, coldness, and disappearance of the menstrual period followed by an escalation into much more serious health problems like anemia, infertility, hair loss, severe digestive problems, frequent illness/immune disorders, autoimmune disease, and any number of other strange complications.
More importantly, this diet is totally unproven, the brainchild of just one human being’s conclusions and a handful of mostly emaciated-looking devotees support, is totally polluted by a religious championing of vegan diet and lifestyle, and is a historically unprecedented diet for human beings, which instinctually would never eat a 95% fruit diet even if fruit was available in unlimited quantities. Add those together and you have the word ?RISKY.
But hey, thanks for showing me that fruit is a health food and that sugars can be friendly in the right context. I, as well as dozens of others that have been piling my email inbox high with thank you’s and pro-sugar testimonials over the past month are very thankful.
Oh and hey, apologies for any condescending and self-righteous tones in my writing as of late. You must understand that my young and impressionable mind was brainwashed by this kind of stuff as a kid? ?I’m hot, and you’re not. You wanna hang with me I’ll give you one shot??
Hey Matt, you may be planning to write on this soon but if not, can you please give me your thoughts on protein and fats? I know you said recently that think the amount of EFAs and AAs is likely much lower than what most people think but what I'm wondering about is if I have a big bowl of rice with butter instead of honey (which I've doing quite a lot recently as I seem to crave honey over even OJ and fruit), am I screwing up my body's ability to metabolize all the sugar I eat in a day (mostly OJ, honey, and raisins)? My PUFA and MUFA intake has been low. Also, I've only been eating muscle meat when I feel like it so some days I feel like a lacto-vegetarian, very weird as I used to eat 300g plus following Martin Berkhan. But on a positive note, I matched my previous best in squats last night so at least my strength is still fine. Anyways, just thinking out loud and would be curious to hear your thoughts. Thanks, Mark.
la de da.. reading along Wait! WHAT? you only brush your teeth a few times a WEEK?
Is that a typo or do you get tarter free clean teeth from eating Milkbone biscuits?
ok, now that my pulse is lower, I will continue reading.
What the hell is up with the pinky on Doug Graham's right hand, which can be seen at the 42 second mark in the candida video. It's either from a horrific accident or rheumatoid arthritis. Does not look good at all.
He was in a gymnastics accident when he was 16, and they didn’t have hand surgeons back then!
It's in the raw food festival video too. That has to be from some sort of accident. I think that RA would be more twisted and on more fingers than that. Yikes. Sorry to get off track.
I've been looking forward to this post, as a former 'Graham cracker' myself. Glad that you're hammering that low body temp thing again: I can't believe that I used to believe the line that regular-food-eaters are all running a low-grade fever from the poisonous cooked food!
I have to say, 80-10-10 was good for me in certain ways. It helped me to get out of the depths of anorexia: fruit is filling and quick energy, and I felt relatively ok about eating what looked like a large volume but was low calorie.
On the other hand, there were some 'enabling' elements vis-a-vis the eating disorder, for example, the statement that it's _healthier_ for women not to menstruate. I basically didn't have a period between age 20 and 30 (not all of this was as raw vegan) and toward the end of that time, when I was much healthier, I clung to that notion as part of resistance to weight gain and was encouraged to do so by fruitarian zealots (primarily older men) who had all sorts of reasoning why amenorrhea was a healthier state. Even thinking about it now, I feel unsure.
Btw, I don't think Doug Graham would claim that he came up with the diet all by himself: he's firmly founded in 'Natural Hygiene' a la Herbert Shelton, T C Fry, etc (neither of whom lived to be particularly old or healthy): granted, neither of them prescribed entirely raw or mostly fruit, but that's the philosophical root, I think.
I have known some healthy people on the diet, but also some of the most scarily unhealthy that I've ever seen. To me, more scary than the emaciation was the lack of mental clarity: fogginess, indecisiveness, groping for simple words…
Another btw–on the steroid hormones, during the 'Great Health Debate' back in January, Gabriel Cousens and others were talking about the problem of overly low cholesterol for vegans and claimed that coconut oil will raise cholesterol. Obviously, that's not an option on 80-10-10 (and adding coconut oil made a big difference for me).
My internet's too slow to see the vids today, but I got a little way into Arnstein's and was reminded of that claim that durian is high-fat. Compared to an avocado, it really isn't. And 80-10-10 folks are all so crazy for durian because it's the one 'kosher' fat on the diet (despite being fat and sugar together–bad food combining). I discovered that I wasn't nearly so obsessed with durian when I allowed myself to eat more coconut and be satiated.
"which instinctually would never eat a 95% fruit diet even if fruit was available in unlimited quantities"
Some of the great characters you write about in your posts would not be out of place in a Carl Hiaasen story. Or a Tom Robbins.
Love your writing style; you have ample fodder for a fantastic novel some day.
funny how 801010ers tout athletic superiority when any elite athlete not purposely severely CR would turn into skeletor
imagine michael phelps eating 100 bananas everyday it is just not possible no matter how dedicated you are
if you don't eat enough fat you don't get enough calories and you'll never store optimum amounts of glycogen. in theory you could eat enough calories from carbs but when you have to consistently eat 5000-8000 it's just not realistic even DurianRider could never do this and has posted about how his pure diet is hard to keep on weight
plus they recommend consuming 0mg added salt which is beyond dumb for athletes
DurianRider goes around saying he trains with Lance Armstrong and TDF riders and Olympic rider lol it's like WTF how come your not sponsored? Even amateurs are sponsored, if you can keep up with elite bicyclists consistently you should definitely be at least sponsored
When partaking on such an extreme diet the conclusion bias and cognitive dissonance people emanate is pure comedy.
The measure of a good diet: how good is it for your libido?
Therefore, low fat and high protein diets lose, by default almost. :D
Yes! I have been waiting for this post! I did 811rv for a week in 2008, then I had the strongest craving for KFC that I've ever experienced. That was the end of that.
Perhaps you’ve read too many blogs or just enjoy regurgitating misinformation. The stack of biochemistry, exercise physiology, and human physiology textbooks in front of me seem to differ from nearly everything this “writer” states. The world of nutrition is rife with misleading and unsubstantiated claims. But for someone to imply that diet is not related to cancer??
Get a hold of the cancer rates now and compare them to fifty years ago before the advent of processed and “refined” foods. Child asthma, obesity, autism, diabetes, etc. too long to list. Cells in the body RUN ON SUGAR. This is irrefutable. Your body is taking that FAT and working hard to turn it back in to SUGAR. However, all sugar is not equal. Sugar as found in food, is safe. Any foods separated from their counterparts can LEAD TO TROUBLE. And commenting on what people say about Doug Graham’s face? Who cares? He’s sixty. He looks sixty. So did Jack Lallane. But he was towing two ton boats at age sixty. He ate some animal products but strongly advocated fresh fruits and vegetables. The point is, people’s faces may age, but this is not an indicator of a person’s health. Get a clue. Or a blood test. Don’t use the emaciated 80/10/10 people who are doing it wrong and starving themselves as examples for your unscientific conclusions.
Excess sugar AKA carbohydrates certainly relate to cancer. High blood sugar results in Glycation, and via glycation you get Advanced Glycation End products that result in the lizard skin described above. AGE’s can also be carcinogenic, or cancer causing, on their own–so aging is indicative of AGE’s as well as depressed mitochondrial function which leads to inflammation, which in turn leads to cancer. This is all biochemistry of course.
Eating carbohydrates doesn’t cause high blood sugar or glycation beyond what is unavoidable.
Not true Matt Stone. If it were true people could eat carbohydrates to their hearts content, which is what the SAD is, and rampant Diabetes and Insulin Resistance wouldn’t be an issue; but their ubiquitous presence suggests otherwise. Anytime you eat high carb, you are allowing an influx of sugars into your body. Fruit is generally comprised of simple sugars, mainly fructose. Fructose must be metabolized through a hepatic mediary. The cells are specialized to do so, and when the amount of sugar exceeds the abilities of the liver, much of it will circulate through the blood stream causing glycation and the production of AGE’s. This results in further organ impairment, shows in the aging of your skin, and the inability to metabolize sugars, fats, or proteins (or toxic compounds, and pharmaceuticals) properly due to AGE’s affecting of the organs. While an active lifestyle will always cause a caloric restriction, which can make a person “skinny;” an influx of excessive sugars will always end with glycation. Sugar is incredibly inflammatory, and it is not good for you in high amounts. It just isn’t. Tell yourself what you need to to make yourself feel better, but ACTUAL biochemical science suggests otherwise.
Little of what you say is scientifically accurate, but just a scientific fairy tale promoted by low-carb enthusiasts. Polyunsaturated fatty acids are the primary factor in glycation, which is ACTUAL biochemical science. Carbohydrate consumption has a strong association with diabetes prevention and leanness. By percentage, the SAD is one of the highest fat diets in the history of human civilization. It’s certainly higher in fat than any primate diet, or diet of the several billion people living in Africa and Asia.
Carbs and/or sugar get SHIT DONE. period.
i just feel the need to support what you said. let alone that no scientist in the world knows exactly what can cause ancer in the first place, and let alone that fruit sugar impacts the body in a different way that other carbs, as an italian i wanna point out that in my country we eat brad and pasta every day, at every meal. why we don t have such a high % of carbs related desease?easy: less fat,less over processed food. bread is eaten alone,pasta is made with simple sauces and little olive oil,and there are no option if you wanna have some take out in the middle of the night, we just tend to eat at meals time, not at any time of the day. more elaborated meals are for special occasion only.
Re: sugar I am afraid I don't have much good to report:
Three months on Stone:
Solid body temps during the day between 98.4 and 99.
Massive increase in sex drive at the end of the third month.
Clear skin for the first time in over 20 years (aside from when I was on the BCP).
Little to no cravings.
Lots of energy.
Weight stable despite doubling my carbohydrate intake after FIVE years of low carbing.
Two weeks on Peat:
Body temps dropped immediately, even falling as low as 97.5 at times!
Sex drive greatly diminished.
Skin broke out in a most horrendous way. It hadn't been that bad in years. I am still recovering. I had gotten used to my clear skin. :(
Lots of energy.
Reactive hypoglycaemia, which took a few weeks to go away after aborting the Peat plan.
Horrible weight gain. I gained 4lbs in two weeks on my second round of Peat.
I just wanted to share this in case others had the same reaction I did.
I'll stick to my gluten free whole starch WOE for now.
What is Peat, Stone and Woe, please.
but what was YOUR Stone and YOUR Peat?
What is Stone?
You know what this post could really use? A description of just what the fuck the 80-10-10 diet is and advocates, besides "raw vegan". What do those numbers even mean?
80 percent carbs, ten percent fat, ten percent protien.
In other words, a recipe for disaster of the metabolic flavor. And mostly all raw and all vegan food. Mostly fruit, some greens, coconut,small amount of nuts. Yeah. That's it in a Nut Job Shell.
We should be grateful, the 811rv people are voluntarily participating in what scientists would probably call an unethical experiment.
Has anyone had problems with sugar over-stimulating the adrenal hormones? Isn't that why Schwarzbein and others say to avoid it? Looking through old posts I found a discussion of the "catecholamine honeymoon" – Is that not going to happen with adding sugar (fruit / juice / ice cream)?
This seems to me to be the big question: are the benefits of sugar really just the same as the "benefits" of caffeine or methamphetamines.
I've had better energy, temperature and mood after adding sugar, but I'm about 4 weeks in and I have recently began waking up in the middle of the night and it's got me concerned. But I have had some significant stressors lately too so I don't know yet whether the sugar is to blame.
I'd be grateful if others would share their experiences with adding sugar.
Matt, maybe you could share some of the sugar testimonials you have been receiving?
ROFL! I LOVE that you put the Teen Witch clip in there. That was one of my favorite movies!
Giving up running was the best thing I ever did, especially when combined with a healthier diet.
I was always injured and hated the thought of making myself doing something that I hated doing but THOUGHT it was so good for me.
Oh lordy no more! Weight lifting is so much easier, more effective, more fun and does not kill my joints and ligaments like running did. Do that while eating a lot of carbs and plenty of nutrient rich animal foods. Your body will thank you for it by building muscle and burning fat.
I've lost 34kg (from 99kg) over 12 months, last 6 months have been based on the HED/RRARF with absolutely no increase in exercise (which is minimal with my desk job and busy life). Now only "overfeeding" one meal 1-2 times per week, rest are to my usually much higher appetite. I currently eat more than when I was obese, low PUFA's, high saturated fat, recently lowered proteins, high carb and try to lower stress.
Orange juice daily, eating fruit and including some sugar has helped my energy levels and mood. Like Matt I no longer feel addicted to sugars. Also helping my temps, just got 96.4 c which is really high for me. Feeling warmer generally. No PMS this cycle! Amazing. People are shocked when they haven't seen me for a while.
I also have a TCM background… living in Australia and turned 30 a few days ago.
PS. This photo is pretty old. :-p
My post was off topic but aimed at the recent ignorant tossers who are going on about calories and obese people eating boxes of doughnuts. I know that it was deprivation (including starvation in childhood) and under-eating nutritious foods plus stress that caused my weight issues. This may not be the answer for everyone, but it's certainly helping many.
Good to see you write something you are good at. Criticizing fad diet dogmas is your strength.
Good thing you made a real post so quickly after the last one. Your new girlfriend might hate you for humiliating her like that if she doesn't like the attention. But, at least some of the comments were good.
This post really makes me question the validity of the high body temperature obsession. If these guys can function OK at 93 degrees then there is probably a wide variation that is OK for people. Im a fan of Broda Barnes, but I see no reason to think 98.6 is a magic number.
Hopefully your post will help other people to get over their temperature fixation.
Sorry, I meant to say that my temperature is 36.4 C which is 97.52 F.
holy crap, dr graham these days looks like his glands are all swollen or something around his neck. what is with that ew.
My body's response to adding 3 servings of fruit and a bit of honey (with balanced meals) everyday has been thus: feel ravenous a lot even just after eating, blurry vision, feel an urge to cry for no reason immediately after eating fruit. (WTF?!) I do have more energy, but sometimes it veers into mania. I wake up ravenous even if I go to bed stuffed. Skin is drier than when HF/LC. Waking up too early. Episodes of mental disassociation.
That sounds bad, but I was super low energy before so the increase in motivation and ability to be active is nice. I hope the bad stuff settles out. I would love to know why my vision goes bad so quickly and significantly and why I wanna cry when I eat sugar.
Is this part of the 'transition' Matt talks about. Insight welcome, thanks, SMG
You prob have a candida overgrowth in ur gut. It affects your vision, thinking, mood, energy, and motivation and a shitload of toher things. Funny the clip on this page of doc graham is him talkin about candida. I had the same problem. Comes from takin too many anti biotics. Take a pro biotic supplement and see wat happens.
Nobody (except for stupid people) thinks fruit is unhealthy
But a balanced diet is important for good health, especially in early life and development.
You need PROTEIN…that is a more serious concern than the B12, or other nutrients. On a low protein diet your body will deteriorate, and if you are a child it is even worse.
“The fittest and strongest athletes in the health scene are the vegans.”
What does “fittest in the health scene” mean?
Mike Arnstein’s PR time in the marathon would not have qualified him into the Olympics as an American woman.
His time wouldn’t even qualify him for the 2012 Men’s Olympic Trials.
That being said, I really respect the guy and find him very fascinating and I do endorse and encourage low-carb dieters to eat more Fruit and get over their Fruit-phobias.
Oh ahm wow…protein beeing a more serious concern than B12 or other nutrients..like maybe..vitamin c, zinc, iron? Get enough protein but kick all the vitamin c off because protein is much more important…
As long as you eat whole foods and not junk food or see lemonade as your carb source, there is no problem with protein.
Sure, fruits and vegetables are mostly low protein, but their protein is raw, easily digestable and contains all essentiell amino acids.
It isn’t important if low or high protein, really important is if the protein is high quality protein with all essentiell amino acids in balance, or not and if it meets your needs.
I see the protein scare by Dr. Atkins is still alive and kicking.
Getting enough protein is only important if you don't get enough calories. People who have had weight loss surgery are told they must get at least 100g of protein a day or they will soon run into health problems. This is not an issue for someone who hasn't had their digestive system mutilated.
Good onya Melissa!
Great comments. It's really encouraging to hear how well you're doing on HED
Why are you determined to undermine Matt with your comments? Just because you were able to lose weight without getting your temps high enough doesn't mean that temperature doesn't count. Matt constantly reiterates the importance of 98.6. 93 may work well for an elite athlete, but at my worse I was 93 and I couldn't function. So in my experience the extra 6 degrees has made all the difference to my health. I would rather do it Matt's way than yours, thank you very much.
What your going through is most likely transitional. Could be high blood glucose. High blood sugar affects eye sight. For the first few weeks I was having high blood sugar but it's now settled back down to normal. I felt really weird and my appetite increased initially. I obeyed my appetite and things have settled down. I'm definitely enjoying the benefits of increased sugar now. I feel much warmer, even though it's cold out. Sleep is great, greater motivation, mind is clearer. And yes, my basal temp this morning was a warm 36.7C/ 98.1F. During the day 37.1C/ 98.8F.
"This seems to me to be the big question: are the benefits of sugar really just the same as the "benefits" of caffeine or methamphetamines. "
Thats what I wonder too!
Wow Matt, it's so exciting so many ways you could go with 180..
If you chose to go fruitarian, you already have recyclable abbreviations
ETF = Eat The Fruit
RRARF = Rehabilitative Rest and Agressive Re-Fruiting
You could also do something completely different and rename your diet to
"THE HOTNESS DIET". Become hotter in 30 days – both metabolically and in other ways!
All Jokes aside i really still love this blog. Even though a lot of the commenters here have been quite confused with what is advocated lately. I don't really feel like things have changed that much.
Still i feel like the sugar debate which initially cause me some trouble and confusion, has actually helped me get rid of some social-eating restrictions, which has been great! Not that i feel like ice cream has replaced rice or potatoes in any way…
BTW does anyone remember the 180-tatey?
I miss the 180Kitchen stuff Matt!!
RRARF = Rehabilitative Rest and Agressive Re-Fruiting
Why do I have the image of Mrs. Doubtfire in my mind right now? ;-)
@Kasper good fruity stuff! the 180 tatey is legendary
BTW heard from Chief he is super busy, hopes to be back soon!
Carb sane-'It was a drive by fruiting!'
Stsncel is right. Silly Rabbit Meat is For Kids! & adults
I was wondering what jackass came up with veganism in the first place as IMO it is a sign of the apocalypse .
'@Princess way to get Hot! Wow!
Princess,My goal is not to undermine Matt, it is to undermine stupid fad dietary fixations, especially the ones I have already been through. If I can help someone else from hurting themselves I will try. I want Matt to succeed, but he keeps getting in his own way with different fixations.
Regarding body temperature, I was on that bandwagon YEARS ago. I started corresponding with Peat and incorporating his ideas over 5 years ago. This was a long time before Matt or anyone else around here started down this path.
High body temperature does NOT always mean good health. My body temperature was always the highest with a lower carb diet, but this is also when I did the most metabolic damage.
Broda Barnes who is the father of the body temperature obsession did not promote a high carb/fruit/sugar diet. His diet was fairly low carb. Peat and Barnes both think the answer is MEDICATION not diet.
You think that body temperature is not necessarily an indicator of health, but do you feel the same way about the metabolic rate?
Matt Stone: "My research has led me to believe that preserving a high metabolic rate and high body temperature is the essence of good health and delaying the aging process."
I think we are all aware that body temperature doesn't always correlate perfectly with good health – we know that we shouldn't necessarily jump for joy if we have a fever and our temperatures skyrocket.
But it seems to correlate well enough with the metabolic rate to be a useful tool for monitoring metabolism – especially considering how easy and inexpensive it is to take your temp.
Do you not think that "body temperature ? metabolic rate" is a reasonable enough approximation to be useful?
Thanks for sharing. Many commenters lose sight of the great successes many have had doing RRARF – especially those coming from a blend of starvation and junk food.
SMG and Lynn-
I used to have all of these issues too, including a drop in body temperature with sugar added into the diet. I had the muscle loss, the fat gain, increased allergies, ridiculous emotional crashes, and so forth. It's easy to see, with this reaction as well as seeing the same in many others, that I hesitated to endorse even fruit – much less eating more than a trace of sugar on a rare occasion (it wasn't overt stupidity).
I too had this problem initially during this "transition," but I noticed it only when there was more fat in the diet. For example, I could snack on fruit and juice throughout the day and be fine as long as I kept the calories really high – just like the 80-10-10 faithful swear by. But of course, keep that up and I would notice loss of lean mass and my fingers/toes starting to get chilly.
If I ate lots of coconut or ice cream or something like that I would start to have runaway hunger, fat gain, insomnia, etc.
Most will say this is because of refined sugar vs. fruit and juice but that is false. I can drink lemonade with refined sugar and be fine. It is definitely the addition of more fat and to a lesser extent protein that triggers those problems.
But, after I stuck with it, I kept adding in more and more fat and protein until the diet was almost a regular diet. I have no problems with fat and protein now as long as I keep the quantities reasonable – like if I ate 2 quarts of ice cream in a day I'd be in trouble.
I can eat cookies, pie, ice cream, milkshakes or whatever. My diet has become very flexible and all systems seem to be working much better.
Yesterday I had lots of bananas, orange juice, lemonade, and grape juice (I tend to get most of my fluids as juice instead of water these days, which is so much more enjoyable). But I also had chicken parmesan with buttered toast, key lime pie, and other things. I have slayed many a homemade meatball with pasta this week. I have eaten grits, sausage, eggs – whatever. Only restaurant french fries and packaged goods full of PUFA are safe in my vicinity – and I even had a few fries a couple of weeks ago (gasp!).
I'm not advocating Peat's dietary recommendations. I respond very poorly to them in comparison to my own diet, which features consuming lots of fruit and juice without protein and fat with it. Eating fat and protein with sugar is more apt to trigger hyper, followed by hypo glycemia – at least in the short-term until one improves their glucose metabolism. Then anything goes.
Wow, Matt – you're not kidding about this dietary freedom stuff! I got nervous just reading that.
I'm thinking: "chicken parm! what about the high PUFA in poultry! the gluten in breading! key lime pie – the additives! the veggie oil in crust! possibly even, gasp, hydrogenated oil! trans fats! pasta? WTF! OMG! robototic brain malfunction: cognitive. overload. cannot. process. must. terminate …
LOL. What a food nerd / obsessive I have become.
For a while I have wondered why you are not more specific about describing what you eat – I thought, maybe he's saving it for THIS FREE EBOOK 2.0 ;)
But maybe it's because, compared to the rest of us, you don't have a diet – you eat everything!
sirhc, Matt's research that he is referring to is the work of Broda Barnes. He promoted the correlation between temp, metabolism, and health. He advocated a fairly low carb diet and thyroid medication to achieve it.
It is probably true that there is a strong correlation between body temp and metabolism. But, the optimal temp might be different for different people.
For me, I don't really worry about the body temp and metabolism anymore. I dont want to spend all my time focusing on these external markers when what is really important is how I feel, function, and look.
It might be important sometimes and not important other times. Some researchers think a low body temp is key, and others think high body temp is key. Yogis intentionally drop their metabolic rate because they think it is important for longevity and good health.
The people here who increase their temps by overfeeding do so because their body is basically having a stress reaction. The body is basically fighting to maintain homeostasis, so it cranks up the metabolism a little to prevent your weight going above its current setpoint. Of course eventually the body will increase its setpoint (your body gets comfortable being bigger) allowing you to gain weight and keep it. It will do this so that the body can relieve the stress of trying to prevent the weight gain.
The stress from the overfeeding stimulation is probably good for some, and I have mentioned many times in the past that I think the body may need to be stimulated to recover from some things. But, the chronic stimulation and stress that is induced by the overfeeding is not good in my opinion, and will probably only lead to further degradation of health.
This is why I prefer intermittent spikes to boost metabolism instead of the chronic stress promoted here.
Eating lots of food is not a stress. It is basic physiology that adrenaline and cortisol are lowered in caloric surplus in a normal person, and that the thyroid gland increases activity in that scenario and increases metabolism and body temperature.
Of course, those with low adrenaline and cortisol due to glandular malfunction may see a rise in these hormones. Too much or too little of anything is a negative – including adrenal hormones, estrogen, etc.
What are your thoughts on the WAI diet?
It says that prepared proteinous food, dairy products and wheat all cause constipation in susceptible people because they sedate the bowel.
Food Causing Constipation
I am really struggling to get my son's bowels moving more frequently than every 2 days, despite increasing fruit intake. The information on the WAI website seems to make sense, but also seems difficult to incorporate in real life.
Yes, overeating is a stress on the body, especially when chronic. Just because cortisol levels can drop doesn't mean it isn't stressful. Too low cortisol is worse than too high, because you will die! That is what I call a big stress.
Too much or too little is going to cause stress, that is why the goal should be to get just the right amount. Then add in intermittent spikes or fasts to keep the system stimulated.
This is you biggest problem man! You keep going from one extreme to the other, bouncing back in forth. Maybe you can stop the cycle by seeing that they can all be right sometimes for some people, and that the answer for most is going to be somewhere in the middle with not too much and not too little. Like I said a million times, it all depends on the individual!
You said: "I don't really worry about the body temp and metabolism anymore. I dont want to spend all my time focusing on these external markers when what is really important is how I feel, function, and look."
I think we're doing the same thing then.
It's just that I have noticed that I feel, function and look better when I have a higher temp / metabolism. But higher, for me, just means around 98.6 since it was previously much lower.
When my temp is low, I feel cold and it's uncomfortable – especially in hands & feet / fingers & toes. And I have experienced that for so long that I am thrilled to feel warm all over! I have also noticed that my energy levels and my mood correlate with my temp / metabolism.
And as for looking better, won't having a higher metabolism help burn fat and build muscle? I mean, isn't raising the metabolism the only truly healthy way to lose fat – as opposed to excessive stress which just puts the body in a net catabolic state where everything is breaking down – like what happens from trauma, eating disorders or excessive endurance exercise.
If someone raises their temp to 98.6 and doesn't feel better then convincing them to keep it there cause of invisible health benefits would be difficult – but I don't have to be convinced because the benefits for me are immediate and obvious.
Like I said, I get pro-sugar testimonials every day now. Just got this one in earlier. I'd say I hear this response almost verbatim twice daily now in emails and other exchanges with people. Note, this is not Ray Peat-ish, but full throttle sugar bonanza – like sitting down to a nice snack of 250 grams of sugar similar to what the advocates of 80-10-10 recommend (but without complementary foods – oops!)…
"After reading about your experience with sugar I took it upon my own to embark on a similar adventure.
I started "carbing up" in the morning as you describe with fruit/juice/sugar and must say, this was the missing link. I continued to keep sugar/fruit in the meal plans throughout the day as well.
Results have been excellent. Energy levels are through the roof, no crashing at all throughout the day. Libido is raging as well…
I drink the blackstrap 'lasses out of the bottle like a 40 oz'er. Truly divine.
You're right about dairy and sugar too. If I ever had some sort of melted cheese or pasteurized dairy I used to get foggy in the head and feel fatigued, have skin issues, etc. Now everything's gravy, I tolerate it even better when consumed alongside tons of carbs/sugar.
It's definitely the PUFA's that fuck with your body the most. If there's one thing I avoid religiously, it's the poly's.
I have much more freedom in my diet now that I have sugar in it though, I feel better.
Who woulda thunk?"
So Matt, Do you only eat sugar alone, or do you combine it with your meals?
Also – could someone possible clarify for exactly what Peats recommendations are?
I'm trying to wade through his articles, but its pretty much impossible with a two year old clamoring for attention.
I don't eat sugar "alone" except sometimes I will have a glass of lemonade and not wonder whether it needs protein or fat with it. Fruit at least has some of both, as does juice. I mean, a gallon of OJ has 32 grams of protein.
But last night I had chicken parm with bananas and juice and key lime pie – so I certainly combine it. I noticed doing stuff like this in the early going on a high-sugar diet didn't go so well though. Now all is well.
Peat seems to advocate having lots of protein, fat, and carbohydrate all mixed together all the time – like drinking milk and orange juice at the same time. No me gusta. Somtimes sure. But there's nothing wrong with having a few pieces of fruit all alone.
I still get the major part of my carbohydrates as simple sugars and have been for several months, but my experience with "massive sugar binging", like having 300g of fruit sugars for breakfast and a pint of ice cream in the evening, was increasingly negative. I had a major inflammatory response that gradually died down over a period of 4-5 weeks, but the headaches and post-lunch energy crashes never stopped but in fact got much worse towards the end. The first month or so it was managable, but the sixth and final week I did this it got so bad I could barely function at work in the afternoon and didn't have the energy to look people in the eyes. I never noticed any positive energy changes beyond the first morning of the first day and my body temp was typically lower even though I was feeling uncomfortably hot most of the time.
Another thing I've noticed now that I'm back to intermittent fasting is how bad it made me feel while exercising, possibly due to chronically elevated lactate levels. When doing the high intensity interval sprints during the sugar binging phase I could usually only do about 3-4 sprints before I would start getting nauseous and sometimes on the verge of vomiting, and I would always feel completely destroyed after a workout, aching head and absolutely no appetite. Then yesterday I had my first workout after ending the sugar binging and not only did I go through all 6 sprints without a hint of fatigue or nausea, I actually felt invigorated afterwards as I hit the showers, absolutely no headache and a healthy appetite to match my post work-out meal.
Instead of drinking milk with OJ, try blending up milk with fruit, such as a ripe banana or berries…you get more fiber that way…
Milk and I have decided to see other people.
My exercise response as well as the other things you mentioned is the perfect exact opposite. I'm not advocating sugar and saying it's the cure-all for all things, and people need to understand that. Rather, I'm saying it's not something that is outright toxic and needs to be avoided, so that people have the ability to self-experiment with it with an open mind. If anything, I'd like to extend that to just about every food on the planet, and have heard positives from those who started eating more PUFA as well, despite your typical person doing much better without them.
I mostly love you because you reference movies like Teen Witch…The rest is just icing.
You know, icing is often used to "top that."
you can't even compare 3 months on stone with 2 weeks on peat. you would have to go an equal amount of time on each and THEN report the differences.
to give an example, you said at the end of the third month of stone you saw a massive increase in libido. and what of up until then? how do you know spending 3 months on peat won't take you beyond the results of stone's starchy diet?
good lord the people matt attracts haha.
sirhc, Sounds Like you are applying the idea of temperature and metabolism in a healthy way, not an obsession. But, I have my doubts that a high metabolic rate = better health all the time. For some maybe, for others maybe not.
Just because your body increases its metabolic rate doesnt mean you are going to lose weight. If you body increases its metabolic rate by 10%, but you are consuming 20% more calories then you will gain weight if it continues over a long period of time. Eventually your body will increase its setpoint and your body will get used to being fatter and stay at the higher weight. If you overfeed for long enough your metabolic rate will drop again even with the higher calories because homeostasis has changed and the body is no longer fighting to keep the weight from changing.
Read my post above about the stress of overfeeding. Chronic overfeed is stress. Also, you will not gain muscle by just increasing the metabolic rate either. Too much thyroid without high anabolic hormones is extremely CATABOLIC and can strip the muscle off quickly!
@ anonymous Ass hole:
It's pretty shitty to come on here, not tell us your name and then bad mouth the 'people Mat attracts' like you are some kind of fucking Mensa leader.
Come out of your Anonymous closet and then maybe people will not find you so hard to take/rude/arrogant.
Most of us come here to get some help with illness, weight whatever the hell our issue is. NONE of us need your smart ass to tell us how stupid we are.
and yes, I kiss my mother with that mouth.. well I did when she was alive. I kiss my husband and my kids with it.
"Of course, just having a low cholesterol level is a much greater risk factor for stroke and cancer than having a high level of cholesterol is a risk factor for heart disease. It’s not like, by having a low cholesterol level, you are somehow protected against disease."
I am aware that there are dangers of having low cholesterol. My question has always been, how do you bring cholesterol levels up? Hubby has low cholesterol, eats pretty much whatever he wants, but I try to cook real food, low PUFA at home, use saturated fats, etc. There really isn't much info out there. I will add that he is under a great amount of stress at work and tends to stuff it.
Anyone have ideas on this one? (no crazy fruit diets here)
forgot to subscribe
one of the fundamental problems I have with high sugar diets (for whatever my opinion is worth), is that it's not sustainable on the long term. you see, when I load up on beer, or do an occasional wine-binge, I feel an initial surge in energy that just kicks in right after I do that. I just know that happens from my own experience. It feels like you can beat the world and literally score any woman you want. You feel like you're some kind of God, while in fact, you aint, because the next day, you feel like absolute crap and have a hangover. that's just how reality works, face it. getting your bulk (or at least a great part) of calories from sugar seems OK on the short term, but let's just see what happens to ya when you're getting older, that would be veeeerrry interesting… these fruitarian nutcases are young flowering people, and may even feel incredibly energetic.. but ever seen a centenarian who followed a high sugar diet?? no, you know why??? they don't exist.. which basically tells you that the average person doesn't last long on a high sugar diet. that's my own biased opinion though. Maybe the amount of joy you can actually experience in life is more important here, And I certainly don't wanna bash anyone's diet, this is just my own preconceived feeling… I like the idea of more dietary freedom, that's certainly a reasonable approach, but depending on sugar??? are you kiddin me??
I'm still trying to figure out if a vegan or lacto ovo vegetarian can be 100% sustainable with the right supplements and foods. Especially for pregnant women as that is obvious proof so far that it isn't. If any videos are available of prolonged vegans/vegetarians with blood profiles on amino acids and vitamins/minerals that are optimal I'd like to know, especially vit-d, iron, zinc. At the least Mr. Graham may want to consider ubiquinol supplementation for his heart up to 1200mg a day, and then 200mcg of vitamin k2 mk7 from natto with nattokinaise a day.
@anonymous about high sugar diets not being sustainable long term
lots of people live to 100 and eat lots of sugar, the average person eats a lot of sugar and some average people live to 100
The longest lived person Jeanne Clement ate 2kilos of chocolate every week.
If anything, and the point I think matt is trying to make, is low sugar diets aren't sustainable and given our epigenetic factors of high sugar cultures our bodies run better on high sugar diets albeit getting sufficient nutrition from real foods, but a high sugar diet shouldn't exclude foods based on ethical or othorexic dogma
Clement was one person…The Okinawan elders didn't get there eating 2kilos of Chocolate a week– some fruit,yes.
i suppose we're going to shitcan the Okinawans now too?
The Okinawans are IRRELEVANT lol
RE from anonymous about high sugar diets not being sustainable long term:
you're absolutely right. although I think it's fair to say that centenarians don't chug down hugh quantities of halfasses. don't get me wrong.. there is nothing wrong with eating some sugar on a daily basis, I agree. but when you're younger you sort of get the illusion that you can top the world, so to speak.. and BTW most centenarian enjoy a booze once in a while, just like buster martin. he enjoys his beer, 'doesn't let anything interfere with him' but he also knows where to stop. the typical centenarian is not an uncontrolled drinker or a binge eater. but maybe it's all just irrelevant. to me, 'takin' her easy' seems a better option..
re: Buster Martin
He died last week or so…
o that's terrible news RIP. i did not know that
I think that's a good point- focusing on body temperature is ok as long as it actually corrlates with feeling and performing better. But it's still an open question for me that it does- that's the hypothesis RRARF is aiming to test, in my view. The point isn't high body temperature- it's the high metabolism that it's supposed to be an indicator of. But I hear you can only maximize/optimize one variable at a time, and it may be possible to maximize body temp at the expense of overall vitality.
And I also notice that sometimes I can convince myself of something and compel myself to believ it for a while. Something like, for example- man, my temps are higher, my hands feel less cold, I'm antsy and want to move around- this is awesome. And there may be some truth to it, but I know that I can psycho myself up for something in an unsustainable way, and find later that I'm let down.
So good points that the point should be health and vitality, and not to lose sight of the forest for the body temperature tree.
haha- psych* myself up, not psycho.
It's funny because I seem to have problems with sugar when I DON'T eat fat or protein with it.
When I tried the massive load on only fruit an molasses in the morning, it wasn't pretty..
Maybe that is all just linked to my impaired glucose metabolism and maybe if I stick it out, it will eventually go away..
Another thing, now we are talking PUFAs -in the past, when I was eating UDO'S CHOICE, which is a combination of omega 3-6-9, my skin was in the best shape it has ever been. It was incredible soft and smooth and I even got a deeper and much richer tan in the summer. Do you think it was just the effect of consciously eating more fat or could it be that maybe the PUFA's had some kind of good effect on my skin, after all?
Good to see you realize how powerful placebo can be. I'm not really questioning wether overfeeding can raise metabolism and body temp in the short term. If you read my posts above, my major concern is if it is unhealthy and stressful to the body to increase it by chronic overfeeding. I explained it in greater detail above, but I don't know how many understand it.
I lost my first response…it was long! Anyway, short version no 2. Doug didn't pull the 80 10 10 numbers out of his ass. It's only a new paradigm to those that have nothing to reference it to. Decreased sex drive and all those other possible problems you mention are not limited to high fruit eaters. Some smokers die young, some don't. Some 80 10 10 ers have problems, some don't. Some people eat ice cream and key lime pie, (what the heck is that btw?) and do fine, others don't. It's pretty pointless looking at it that way and concentrating on carbs, protein and fats. I'm mostly disturbed by the lack of focus on the quality of the source of these macro-nutirents. Refined sugar or HFCS is not even in the same ball park as the sugar found in an apple, freshly picked from a tree!
Follow the path that makes the most sense to you. We don't have a crystal ball. Yea, it might feel good now but what about when I'm 76.5? Pointless! There are way too many contributing factors to health other than what one eats.
I'm growing my own fruits and vegetables and will live happily in my garden of Eden.
@Sheila, interesting about the Udo's. I've never tried it but I know someone who swears by it. Did you give it up because of the PUFAs?
come on, this Doug doesn't know what he's talking about. just take a minute and notice the incredible stupidity of his words: "if you have a tube filled with marbles, and pour some oil on the top, and every single marble will be completely coated with a film of oil". A low-carb guru would say: "ooohh, but if you have a potato, that's like a quarter cup of sugar, now if you have normal blood sugar that's about one teaspoon of sugar dissolved in your blood, now all the sudden, bamm, you're adding a quartercup to that mix". aren't you smart enough to see a pattern there, gurus are gurus, they just pull numbers out of their asses, that's what they do, that's the purpose of being a guru
Yeah, I did. Not sure if it was a good thing though. Like your friend, I did swear by it too. I know UDO'S is all about having the right balance between the 3,6 and 9 fats but I don't think he takes into account that you might have accumulating PUFA's in your tissue AND what about the fats you eat outside of the UDO'S?
You are a very nice guy and a sensible chap as I know that you eat cooked food and occasionally pizza so I am not worried about your adventures in Durian Land :). I do however raise my fist and say YES to your garden of eden, nice way to feed yourself!
and again.. sigh.. last anonymous, why is it so important that you are the Smartest person on Earth? This line that you wrote, 'aren't you smart enough to see a pattern there, gurus are gurus,' would have been stellar is you took out the insult of "aren't you smart enough…'. Come on, really, just say what you want to say without degrading others.
Play nice in short.
And don't run with scissors. And for Christ's sake stop talking with your mouth full.
@grass fed momma and adam,
my apologies, to both of you, that wasn't really my intention at all. I just hate it when diet gurus intimidate people with all their (maybe well meant) diet recommendation that have zero basis in reality… ok. that's all. and you're right, I shouldn't have dropped the "aren't you smart enough" line, that was just rude. I'm not english, so that explains my crappy writing-style. thanks for reminding me of my place. again, SORRY
I posted a comment earlier speculating about the connection between sugar and waking up in the middle of the night (around 3 AM when sleeping at 10-11 PM and waking 6-7 AM). After more research I have discovered some interesting stuff.
A few articles suggested that waking up in the middle of the night is not a problem at all – but actually a natural and traditional sleep pattern. Some call it biphasic sleep.
"The dominant pattern of sleep, arguably since time immemorial, was biphasic," Roger Ekirch, a sleep historian at Virginia Tech University and author of "At Day's Close: Night in Times Past" (Norton 2005). "Humans slept in two four-hour blocks, which were separated by a period of wakefulness in the middle of the night lasting an hour or more. During this time some might stay in bed, pray, think about their dreams, or talk with their spouses. Others might get up and do tasks or even visit neighbors before going back to sleep."
"People with particularly strong circadian rhythms continue to [wake up in the night]," said Ekirch."
That last quote really jumped out at me because that is probably the most significant change that happened in my lifestyle when this sleep "problem" started. This has literally been the first time in years that I have been waking up early and going to bed early and in a regular pattern.
And in an effort to cure this sleep problem days ago, I adjusted even more to natural rhythms by getting sunlight early in the morning, and after sunset using candlelight and the program f.lux for a warmer colored light on the computer screen and also covering my window so my room is completely dark when sleeping.
By making these changes to cure the "problem" it seems I may have made the conditions even better for it to persist.
Of course, I don't know whether waking in the night / biphasic sleep is more natural or more healthy – but considering that as a possibility has already made me feel better about it. And the worst part of the whole thing is the stress and anxiety wishing I wouldn't have woken up and that I could get back to sleep instantly.
And in the most relevant point to this blog, I may have been completely wrong to blame sugar / Peat's nutritional advice. Especially because I made those dietary changes over a month ago and this waking up started around the same time I made these circadian rhythm / sleep pattern changes.
Anyway, I'm not stating any conclusions or certainties here – just exploring the possibilities and sharing it because it might be helpful if others have or develop this same "problem."
Don't eat sweets or cabs after 2pm and you'll sleep like a baby ..
Carb up for breakfast and lunch and make your evening meal a small one..
Matt, Good to see you write something you are good at.
Do you realize you're an asshole when you put it that way? Backhanded complement, much? How would I feel if I said "Hey JT, you sound a lot less stupid than usual when you speak about exercise."?
This post really makes me question the validity of the high body temperature obsession. If these guys can function OK at 93 degrees then there is probably a wide variation that is OK for people.
What evidence do you have that these people are "functioning OK"? Merely the fact that they don't drop over dead within six months? That's a pretty low bar. Look at how unhealthy Doug Graham looks in that second movie. Mark Sisson could break him in half. My Dad (who eats moderately okay but doesn't avoid veggie oils and does jog) looks stronger and healthier than him, and he's more than 20 years older.
And in fact, according to a metabolic ward study I read recently basal metabolism rate was the strongest correlation with weight loss and overall health. I don't know how much weight you put on metabolic ward studies, but that seems like useful evidence to me.
I see no reason to think 98.6 is a magic number.
Other than, you know, complete reversal of diabetes, heart disease, arthritis, and half a dozen other minor inconveniences that no one should be overly concerned with.
Princess,My goal is not to undermine Matt, it is to undermine stupid fad dietary fixations, especially the ones I have already been through.
You're never going to do that if you can't critique Matt's points without stating bizarre anti-facts like "eating is stressful on the body."
the optimal temp might be different for different people.
And your evidence of this is? Historically 98.6 was established as the human norm because that's what everyone was, unless they had a fever.
Has anyone had problems with sugar over-stimulating the adrenal hormones? Isn't that why Schwarzbein and others say to avoid it? ? This seems to me to be the big question: are the benefits of sugar really just the same as the "benefits" of caffeine or methamphetamines.
This was the first thing that occurred to me as well. I considered that Matt was just being a big kid on a sugar-high, with a crash to come later. Plus there's still the yet-to-be resolved issue of whether bloodwork profiles are stable, improving or worsening.
But on the point of over-stimulating the adrenal glands, I don't think sugar does that. The only evidence I have is that of commenter terpol who has a condition that forces him to avoid any sort of adrenal stimulation. Exercising even a little feels like a heart attack to him because he cannot handle the adrenaline. But he can handle sugar, which tells me that his adrenal glands are not being stimulated by the sugar.
I would like to see some more about the effect of sugar on cortisol and thyroid hormones though.
Your irrational diatribes against me dont deserve much of a response. Yes, I am intentionally trying to goad Matt into getting back to his old self. He was the best health blogger on the net when he focused on debunking dietary fads.
Why don't you ask all the people eating this diet who feel great with. Low body temp. Seems like most of the are able to function at a very high level even witht their low body temps. Can you do what they can?! What about all the yogis who intentionally drop their metabolic rate to achedive health and longevity benefits. Can you do what they can?
98.6 is the average that was discovered, but nobody has proved it is optimal. I was on the temp bandwagon way before you and Matt and I didn't get the magical effects. Like I mentioned before, my highest temp was when I was low carb, and this is when I did the most damage.
You are either intentionally lying, or unable to understand my argument because of your emotional reaction to someone holding different beliefs. I never said eating is stressful, I said chronic overfeeding is, because the body has to fight to maintain homeostasis. If you can show that you actually understand my argument, I would love to hear a RATIONAL critique.
If you think my ideas on exercise are stupid, please enlighten me if you really believe you have the knowledge or experience to do so. If you can keep up with the PACE!
I was sold on that 811rv diet back when I was into natural hygiene. I tried it and within 3 days my teeth were bleeding and I started developing a urinary tract infection. Looking back, I can't believe I fell for it, but then I thought the vegan diet was mankind's ideal diet.
The fruitarian diet comes from the old natural hygienist T.C. Frye, who died rather young. He had troubles with it as well, often binging at night on fats and ice cream. Shelton never advocated all fruit.
I also started waking up in the middle of the night and would panic. Now that I accept it as possibly normal, I just think about my dreams or whatever and drop back to sleep with little fanfare.
What's with those pouches behind Graham's jaws? Is he storing nuts back there? I've found the 811rvers to be emotionally erratic and unhinged. I think Graham looks like shit, and I hear he's very confrontational and rude as well.
Matt wrote: "More importantly, this diet is totally unproven, the brainchild of just one human being’s conclusions and a handful of mostly emaciated-looking devotees support, is totally polluted by a religious championing of vegan diet and lifestyle, and is a historically unprecedented diet for human beings, which instinctually would never eat a 95% fruit diet even if fruit was available in unlimited quantities. Add those together and you have the word ?RISKY.
Though your use of English here is problematic, I have to say what you wrote here is a thing of pure beauty.
(I wish I could just edit a post.) Meant to say my gums were bleeding, not my teeth. Doh!
Why don't you ask all the people eating this diet who feel great with low body temp.
I have, thanks. I've spoken to people like them in person and read about their results. Plunging hormone levels, getting sick often, frequent failure to menstruate, terrible muscle tone, and being just plain awful looking (skin, eyes, teeth) belies their words. There's a guy who my Mom works with that basically follows a lowest-fat-possible, mostly fruit diet and he looks like absolute shit. He's convinced himself that he's healthier for it, and will tell you about how healthy it is for hours, but the observable evidence proves he's delusional. He's so weak he's even asked my Mom, a woman of no particular size or strength, to open jars for him.
That's why I don't trust personal records of I feel good? or ?This is so healthy. Show me the numbers. Show me the actual healthspan increase, weight loss, strength improvement, etc.
And frankly, I'm guessing you do something similar (discredit personal reporting, that is), because people post to this forum every single day about how Matt's advice has helped them lose weight, get healthier, etc. and yet for some reason you're still here going off about how Matt's off his rocker. It just annoys me that you waive your ?metabolic ward studies? around like a magic voo-doo stick, as if ?maybe this time? you'll actually convince someone.
Seems like most of the are able to function at a very high level even witht[sic] their low body temps.
Every piece of evidence I have seen suggests this statement isn't factually true. How do you define ?high level?? Not having enough testosterone to form muscle mass doesn't seem like a ?high level? to me. Neither does being able to run a marathon ? an activity highly certain to result in an early heart attack. Running any marathon is like competing in the 100 m sprint in the Special Olympics ? even if you win, you're still a retard.
Moreover, try showing the opposite. Try to show that they would be less healthy if they changed their diet from 811rv to 180. Can you do that? My conjecture is that whatever they can do now, they'd only improve on 180. And enough ex-fruitarians have piped up on this board and elsewhere that it's not even a conjecture ? I'm just reporting the evidence.
98.6 is the average that was discovered, but nobody has proved it is optimal.
Optimal for what? Maybe it is sub-optimal if your goals is to run yourself into an early grave. But if you're goal is to avoid heart disease, I think someone HAS proven its optimality. And you know what his name is.
This is just another example of your selective anti-facts that annoy me. I don't call them ?lies? because you might even believe them when you say them, but that doesn't make them correct.
highest temp was when I was low carb, and this is when I did the most damage.
So your single point of evidence outweighs all of the people who have done really well on this diet?
Actually, here's a question ? have you actually tried 180? I mean really done it and stuck with it a couple months to see if it works for you? I can't recall if you've said you have.
your emotional reaction to someone holding different beliefs.
My emotional reaction is to someone who keeps shitting all over my favorite comment forum by bringing up the same arguments over and over and (back-handedly) calling our host a moron. I don't mind that you disagree with me; I seek out people who believe things I don't in order to understand them. It's your continued poor behavior that annoys me.
If you showed any evidence of understanding the limited applicability of your ?metabolic ward studies? in our situation, and that there are other factors at play, I'd be much less annoyed.
I would love to hear a RATIONAL critique.
Eating to appetite isn't over-eating. How's that?
I want Brock's Mom to come open all my jars! :-)
You stated, "It's your continued poor behavior that annoys me".
Are you serious? Your comments are so irrational, emotional, and hateful that you are the last person who should try to enforce it on others. Have I ever called names and been as hateful as you on here? I have told Matt many times that I will never post again if he just asks me not to.
You stated, ?Neither does being able to run a marathon ? an activity highly certain to result in an early heart attack. Running any marathon is like competing in the 100 m sprint in the Special Olympics ? even if you win, you're still a retard." Brock, I probably shouldn't even respond to such a hate filled comment, but it really shows you don't understand what high level physical performance is. Just because something is dangerous or unhealthy doesn't mean the athletes aren't high level. Competing in the NFL requires a high level of physical functioning even though the sport itself can be very harmful. Being able to run like doug or bike like durianrider require a high level of physical performance, even if it is hurting their bodies. Matt will even agree with me on this.
You still haven't shown that you even understand what I mean concerning overfeeding and the stress of trying to maintain homeostasis. Many will have to eat above appetite to raise their metabolism and body temp.
I have already said that Matt's program is good for some people. Others got fatter, depressed, and lethargic. But, I could say this about every dietary program out there including this 80-10-10 diet. That is why our focus should be on finding out what works for who and why?!!! I think Matt is one of the most talented writers in this genre, but he keeps looking for the one true way instead of seeing there are many paths that are suitable for different people.
Since you aren't able to give an accurate assessment of my arguments, can you at least do it for Matt's program? Seriously, can you in give us a short and accurate representation of his program? You asked me if I have tried Matt's program, but to be honest, I am not sure I even know what it is anymore because it keeps changing. Please show us that you understand the program you are defending with such certainty.
"What about all the yogis who intentionally drop their metabolic rate to achedive health and longevity benefits."
for what its worth, for many of these individuals, health or longevity is not the major factor. For them the search (however one defines it: for happiness, success, money, health/longevity, etc) has ended.
Many of these individuals have renounced all possessions and have no money apart from alms given. Consequently, food eaten is often in very meagre rations, or not at all some days.
Yes, the body is very adaptable.
But that's not to say in some instances they dont have symptoms (for example those that many experience with dramatically reduced food intakes), but the attachment, the identification, with thought is not occuring in the same way as is considered 'usual'. From a scientific perspective one could say the neurology of the brain has changed.
For all usual perspectives these individuals are beyond life and death, and as far as they are cponcerned, what happens to their body is of little consequence to them at all,
Kind wishes, J
Grass fed momma – Thank you for your very kind and smart defence of me. Much appreciated. My bf also thought it was pretty cool. Have a cyber hug.
Anonymous – I always find 'anonymous' commenters interesting. It's a very cowardly way to attack someone.
I was just presenting the other side. I could have easily lied and said I did Peat for three months, but I stated that it was for two weeks so as to show what happened within a SHORT time frame. I also did Peat for three weeks at another time and had the same negative reactions.
The reason I stuck with Stone (starch) vs. Peat (sucrose) was because Matt's original high starch plan never caused me ANY negative reactions. At all. Whereas on Peat I had a truckload of negative symptoms; the most important one being rapid weight gain – 2 lbs a week all of the five weeks I was on it.
The main reason I am here is for weight loss; sow why would I do something that makes me gain at a frigtening pace!
The sad truth is that all of the low carbers I know gain about 10-15% of their body weight on Peat. On THREE months of Stone's original high starch plan I gained nada.
So I am just here to let other people know about the other side; since many are here for weight reasons like me.
Lynn you are welcome ! I just think that being mean just hurts and does not further anypnes cause. I for one find your insights most valuable. When the experiment is n=1, like yours we are not scientists doing precision work with control groups we are on our own learning what works forUs. Xo deb
Aaaaaaaaaaaagh typos abound in my post. I wish we could edit posts. :(
In reference to your statement 'I believe from what I’ve experienced, studied, and heard from others ? that 811rv has a dark side that rears its ugly head in the long-term, usually starting with small things like lack of morning wood, coldness, and disappearance of the menstrual period followed by an escalation into much more serious health problems like anemia, infertility, hair loss, severe digestive problems, frequent illness/immune disorders, autoimmune disease, and any number of other strange complications.'
1. How can you say so definitively about the dark side of 811 when you yourself say this is the brainchild of one man without research?
2. How long have you done the 811 rv yourself to be able to chime in with your personal testimonial about 811 dark side?
3. What you have heard from others? Does hearsay fit into your 'scientific research findings?'
And a few more points on your whole post –
4. You start your post condescendingly and end your post condescendingly. But in the middle you agree with 811's concepts. So are you just putting your ego before your common sense?
5. You predict Doug will die before 65? People have been making his death prediction for the last 25 years. Many didn't give him a chance of a day over 50. He is still going strong.
I have read through most of your blog and find you to be a sensible chap. Give credit to folks where it is due instead of trying to be the know it all dude.
Um ok no thanks but if you can just not say others are stupid or throw us all under the 180 bus that is a start. Glad to hear you feel '"strong like bull"! I don't think I need to quote the things you said to others, they are still posted here for you to re read. Heres to health and learning!
If you are so into accepting testimonials from others as evidence, then also see the testimonials on Doug's blog who have been doing this for much longer than you. They all are healthy and fit. If for you healthy means being big and muscular, thats wrong. You call Harley as someone out of a camp, but he is in the ideal weight
range for his height. Sure he can always build more muscle. But he is an endurance athlete who chooses to be lean so that he doesnt have extra fat to carry around.
If you are going to listen to negative testimonials, do listen to positive ones as well and try to be objective.
Long term predictions about 811 rv? How the hell do you know long term? The book came out in 2005/6, you probably are doing some version of it for less than a year and you already predict long term???
As for long term evidence, Doug Graham is growing stronger every day and has the vitality to compete with any challenger. Like Roger said a lot of his naysayers had predicted he wouldn't live but he still is making people eat their own words.
That Joanna female tried the diet for 3 days and blames the diet rightaway! Didnt you have some bad symptoms for the first few days and then they went away? Doesn't any diet transition has its initial ups and downs? Does one persist and test it out or just give up after three days and go shouting over rooftops?
@Kim I read that Harley is six feet tall 145 lbs. By the charts here he is pretty underweight and IMO too. True or false?
You see hate where there's just annoyance. I reserve hate for people who do truly hateful things ? which such category does not usually include forum comments, however ?annoying.
I probably shouldn't even respond to such a hate filled comment, but it really shows you don't understand what high level physical performance is.
Once again ? not hateful. But we were speaking of HEALTH, not performance-for-performance's-sake. Marathon runners can do something I cannot do, but so can people who drive nails into their nose with a hammer ? I don't care to do it. Keith Richards is at a very high level performance in two categories I can think of, and only one of them (music) is admirable or something to aspire to. Being a high level drug user is retarded, from my point of view ? because I value my health and a meaningful life spent with family and friends.
Sometimes giving up that life is necessary and admirable, but no one is winning the war against Japanese Militarism by running a marathon, or bike riding like durianrider, or doing six eightballs in a row.
So as long as we are on the topic of HEALTH, for purposes of longevity and enjoyment of life, running a marathon is retarded.
?You still haven't shown that you even understand what I mean concerning overfeeding and the stress of trying to maintain homeostasis.
If you eat a lot, your colon does double-time pooping a lot and your body runs a higher temperature, trying to keep the body weight at the set point, and all this work is stressful. Does that about sum it up?
I don't buy it. I'm pretty sure that 98.6, give or take half a degree, is exactly where everyone should be. I have plenty of evidence for this, as I'm sure you're aware. And Matt's program of overfeeding brought my temperature up from 96.5 to 98.8, where it stays today while I eat to appetite at every meal.
Everything about me is healthier today because I followed this program – I'm stronger; I sleep better; I wake more rested; I have more energy for everyday tasks and activities; I recover from exercise faster; I can do exercise longer; I poop clean logs that barely need wiping 2 to 3 times a day; I'm more mentally alert; I quickly put on muscle when I do resistance exercise (that NEVER happened before); ? I could go on.
That doesn't sound like stress to me.
I have already said that Matt's program is good for some people. Others got fatter, depressed, and lethargic. But, I could say this about every dietary program out there including this 80-10-10 diet. That is why our focus should be on finding out what works for who and why?!!
Okay, so if you really believe that why do you keep recommending a course of action that works for even fewer people than Matt's program? I mean, like, for no one but a 5% lucky few.
?Seriously, can you in give us a short and accurate representation of his program? ?
1. Eat the food. Total calories matters. Don't diet.
2. The best sources of calories are starchy carbs with fiber, followed by highly saturated fats (coconut, butter, tallow).
3. Protein should be a mix of muscle meats and gelatins. You don't need very much.
4. Avoid PUFAs.
5. Avoid empty carbs but don't make yourself a hermit or stress about it. Eat healthy at home, eat carefree with friends.
6. There's more to health than food. Sleep, get sun, play, avoid stress.
That's it, man. It's not hard. Don't over-complicate it.
And of course Matt's currently experimenting with sugars. And that's cool, because obviously if someone had ‘the? answer there wouldn't be so many competing opinions on nutrition out there. Gotta keep learning. Personally I'd like to see some data and research on the topic though, as currently folks like T. L. Cleave and Weston A. Price weigh in against. I'll have to check Deficiency Disease again to recall where McCarrison came down on the matter.
"I read that Harley is six feet tall 145 lbs."
If that's true, that tells me all I need to know about what Kim (and probably the 811rv community generally) thinks health looks like.
But I already knew that. I knew a guy (we called him Rotten Fruit Man) who was pretty close to 811rv, and had been doing it for decades too. He convinced himself he was healthy, much like anorexics convince themselves they're fat, but anyone without a warped view of the world thought he looked like crap. No muscles to speak of, awful skin (like Doug Graham), etc. He was a walking object lesson in reasons to not eat like that.
Joanne Unleashed said…
"Matt wrote: "More importantly, this diet is totally unproven, the brainchild of just one human being’s conclusions and a handful of mostly emaciated-looking devotees support, is totally polluted by a religious championing of vegan diet and lifestyle, and is a historically unprecedented diet for human beings, which instinctually would never eat a 95% fruit diet even if fruit was available in unlimited quantities. Add those together and you have the word ?RISKY.
Though your use of English here is problematic, I have to say what you wrote here is a thing of pure beauty."
I have to agree, this was one of his finer moments of late. And the very last sentence wasn't even unnecessary. Beaut-i-ful!
That's kickin ass, Matt!
Reminds me of one of my 'favorite' recent quotes here…
"The other point about native diets (here we go again) is humility- people ask about native practices I think in response to a long history of dismissal of indigenous people as backward and stupid, and their practices as foolish, unscientific and irrelevant. But as it turns out, they weren't so damn stupid after all, and there was a logic to their practices that in many cases helped keep them healthy. So wondering what they did and why is a totally legit counter-measure to the haughty presumption that today's science is the final word, and that we know everything we need to know, and anything we don't know yet is most likely irrelevant. Could be, but the trajectory of modern life toward ill health and estrangement from the land, each other and ourselves, will continue to bolster my humility toward folks whose practices seemed more successful than ours."
Absolute work of art!
You know I don't need to name who said it lol! But this particular "artist's" views so often jive with mine, that I could just follow his comments up with, "Yeah, what he said!" He articulates them so much better than me, anyway lol!
And another favorite is the quote that follows this statement…
"I see that you quote a lot of the old blog posts here as verification of the theories being promoted, but this doesn't really provide us with any real verification of the claims. Matt doesn't even believe many of the things that he wrote in the past."
"I don't know exactly what Matt believes these days, but I quote those posts because they make sense to me, and present compelling arguments. If Matt or someone else disagrees, I'd like to have a counter-argument presented, not just 'Matt doesn't believe that anymore.' I do my best not to turn him into a guru, so whether an idea gets his seal of approval or not these days isn't sufficient to change my mind when it comes to earlier ideas of his that made sense to me."
I just love a great thought-provoking work of art! The kind that renders you–and those who provoke them–speechless. That's kickin ass baby! I'm not taking names nor mean any disrespect to anyone here–just giving props where props are due :-)
Also, I'm a tiny bit biased cause he's my future hubby lol! :-)
Okay, last one, but different artist. I absolutely love this quote. I can't tell you how many times I've said this one myself, word for word. These are words I live by…
"i seek out the truth. whatever it may be. and even if it means i was wrong."
Okay, I'm done. Goodnight, peeps. Hope everyone enjoys their holiday weekend! Eat the food!
Hey Brock and all you fruity fruit people:
I heard those measurements when I listened to the debate of Harley VS Richard Nikoley. So that was what, ten days ago?
Yeah, seriously, my dad was skinny but at six ft two inches, he weighed 185. Lean muscle, not emaciated skeletor. Hell I know women my height ( about 5'6" who weigh a bit more than that!
You are showing again that you don't even understand what I was talking about concerning the body, stress, and homeostasis. But, it doesn't really matter because you are not open to it even if it is true.
If those are the guidelines then how is it different than WAPF, besides throwin in the Peat anti-PUFA thing? And, the fruit sugar thing is now a part of Matt's program, so if you wanna stay hardcore RRARF you gotta hop on the bandwagon too.
What is funny, is I have pretty much been eating the diet you describe for years. Yet I'm attacked for not ever trying it. I had even added in the sugar before everyone else. Matt and I used to have lots of arguments about it last year because he was sure it was the cause of all things evil. I was low PUFA before Matt started promoting it too, and you can find us arguing about that too. I was against the Milk diet and told everyone what was going to happen with that. and Matt argued with me about that too, and now he agrees with me. I even started doing the temperature thing years before because of Peat, and Matt used to make fun of Peat and now he agrees.
Really the only thing Matt and I disagree on is the concept of an optimal diet. He still thinks there is going to be 1 true way, and I say it is all individual.
I find This woe very interesting. I am former lc and trying to add back the resistant starches into my diet. If anyone here is interested check out curezone iodine forum. Isupplement iodine and believe my thyroid is functioning much better because of it. It is not a panacea, therefore I am experimenting with starches-not so much sugars. Cheers!
I think what Matt is trying to tell us, is that everybody's physiology is the same and that is why he more or less promotes one diet fits all (give and take) For instance, just because someone functions better on a low carb diet, doesn't mean it is optimal for the human body but because that person has a damaged or impaired glucose metabolism. If you react negatively towards whole foods, it is not the food that is wrong but how your BODY react to it that is wrong. Yes, we can all go by our lives avoiding certain foods and medicating our problems OR we can grab the bull by the horns and OVERCOME our difficulties so that we in the future can enjoy all mother natures garden.
I like Matt's statement; If you have trouble with fruit, your not eating enough! While that might be an exaggeration, it points out that we shouldn't be afraid of natural foods or beginners trouble.
As for me, I have trouble with sugars and I am still pushing through the "pain" because I want more dietary freedom and not have to worry every time I step out of my normal diet.
The youtube video Matt posted a few post back, about the raw food family, is a perfect example of someone who has been medicating their "problems" and what happens when you step out of the box.
Regarding what diet works best for athletes, I don't think that proves much as you can push yourself beyond what is healthy, no matter what diet your on, as long as the passion is there. I know myself, I have been lifting some of my heaviest weights back in my bodybuilding days on low carb AND on nothing else but Meth when I was doing drugs. I've also have great workouts on higher calories. For me, it doesn't prove anything as the mind is very powerful in sports. It has nothing to do with health, only willpower.
@ grass fed momma
"my dad was skinny but at six ft two inches, he weighed 185. Lean muscle, not emaciated skeletor."
How is that skinny? By BMI, that is in the upper normal range.
""I read that Harley is six feet tall 145 lbs."
If that's true, that tells me all I need to know about what Kim (and probably the 811rv community generally) thinks health looks like."
That's low but still within normal range.
More on sleeping in shifts:
"The Sleep-Industrial Complex" NY Times
Also, an article I read a few years ago (original is no longer on web by the looks, but someone's copied it, luckily):
Sleep The Clock Around by Giulianna Lamanna
"What's with those pouches behind Graham's jaws? Is he storing nuts back there?"
Ha! I don't genuinely laugh out loud very often, but I did at that one! Ah, too funny…
@Hans do you need photo ? Where do you live anorexialand?
@ grass fed momma
You can check wikipedia and you will find that it is in the upper normal range. No, not in anorexialand, just not in the US…
I actually tried the 811rv for 5 days after years of trying to be a raw vegan. After 3 or 4 days my gums were bleeding, and they never bleed. On the 5th day I experienced painful urination.
I also found the diet totally unworkable for me. The amount of fruit I would have to consume to get in enough calories was massive. I was obsessing about what to eat, because I had to eat so often. I'm not interested AT ALL in drinking 12-banana smoothies. You have to be a huge fan of bananas to make that diet work. I don't like bananas. And I don't like being cold.
And then spending a little time in discussion groups with these people convinced me that they're emotionally unbalanced, hostile, and unreasonable. The type of respectful debate that occurs on blogs like this are nowhere to be found among vegans or 811rvers. They are, for all intents and purposes, religious zealots. I've had enough of religion.
Maybe if I had stuck with the diet I would have worked through the problems I encountered at the beginning, but I really see no reason in forcing myself to eat things I don't enjoy, hang with people I find emotionally disturbed, and consume foods grown in other countries and shipped to me here at great cost to the environment and our fossil fuels. I'd much rather eat a steer that grew up half an hour away from here feeding on grass under his feet.
Hahaha. What a joke! Surely you can’t believe people will take this comment seriously! “I tried eating coco pops for 5 days and my ears disappeared!” That’s about how realistic this type of hype is
Seriously, I don't endorse DR's bullshit diet, and he IS skinny, but I've seen tons of East and South East Asian people who were skinny like him. It's just in the US that being "big" is associated with being healthy and attractive. If it makes people feel better about their obesity to push up the limits of what is "normal," fine, but calling people with a normal build "anorexic" or talking about "stick figures" is just plain wrong. We don't all have to be weight lifters, wrestlers or body builders.
Not that disagreement can't be useful, but some of you guys (JT & Brock) maybe should consider reading Paul Graham's (what up with all the Grahaming in here?!) short essay "How to Disagree", just to keep the tone more comfortable.. :-)
Anyway i think the discussion is great, you just seem to mask the main points you make with a seemingly mean tone.
Over and out
I understand that Matt promotes a one size fits all diet, and that us why I disagree. The same food can be poisonous for one person and beneficial for another. We all have different imbalances, and will need different things to fix the imbalance. To promote the same treatment for everyone is dangerous and unhealthy.
You cannot always overcome difficulties to enjoy all of mother natures garden. Would you eat a large quantities of poisonous mushrooms so that you could overcome your problems and enjoy them? Of course not. There is no reason to think this is healthy or possible with lots of different foods. Some people just need to avoid certain things. Matt avoids milk now, why doesn't he just keep chugging large quantities everyday until he can enjoy it with no problems? He doesn't even believe this anymore, so I think his followers should stop promoting it as well.
Regarding high level physical performance and health, they are not the same thing. Doug and durianrider might be unhealthy, but they are able to display a high level of physical performance, even if displaying it causes harm.
I did check Hans, not upper normal it said underweight
Check out this 180 testimony:
I started my health journey a couple years ago at the age of 17 a couple months before my 18th birthday. I started to eat a raw vegan diet which turned into a whole foods type diet eating lots of potatoes, fruit, dairy, etc. Eating as much as I could all the time(like 4000 calories).
Recently(now I'm almost 21) after reading MS advice and what not I started to eat unenriched OG white flour and white sugar bumping up my calories since it wasn't really possible for me to eat any more whole foods. I get all my vitamins, minerals, etc in more than sufficient amounts. And eat about 5000-6000 calories and don't think oh man have to eat more food.
Adding refined foods took away all lingering small skin problems like couple red bumps on my body and face. Plus I instantly improved at my sport and felt a lot stronger/faster.
And I feel like I'm putting on muscle/fat super easy. I'm 6'2" 165lbs trying to get up around 190lbs for my sport, I was my lowest on 801010 eating 4000cals a day but only weighed 135lbs. I just don't think I can go past 160-165lbs without refined foods.
For weight loss though I see whole foods as being superior because they are so satiating.
But I think it is a definite 180 for me to improve my health based on how I look, feel, perform adding homemade chocolate chip pancakes, molasses chocolate chip cookies, cakes.
And I don't think I would have ever tried such a crazy diet out without someone like Matt blogging.
Anonymous, that is a great example of the type of condition that may respond well to this program. I think someone who is weak and underweight would do better if they got bigger and stronger from bumping up easily absorbable calories. Like you, I also do better adding some refined carbs to my diet.
"Would you eat a large quantities of poisonous mushrooms so that you could overcome your problems and enjoy them?"
Would I eat POISONOUS foods?! I might be open minded but I am not stupid. Fruit is not poisonous, no matter how you bend it.
I don't know why Matt has given up on milk. Maybe he doesn't feel he is missing out, so why push through the pain?
I love fruit/sugar, it's the only thing that makes my hands and feet hot. I still have a lot of trouble with it but I am pushing through the pain because I would feel deprived without it.
Yeah Meth is the bomb for physical performance. For health not so much.
Yea individuality is almost common sense. Most "health" diets are based upon either mythological super/paleo human or low energy foods none are geared toward lean people.
It's funny the arguments people make against refined foods. Like paleo man didn't refine foods. Or Weston Price studying people who have sugar drinks all day and eating basically zero whole foods. Duh smart dentists now know it's the constant sugar assault, people used to eat a couple sugary meals everyday and had zero cavities.
I know how you feel about wanting certain foods even though they make you feel bad. I love eggs, but they make me sick. I know a little boy who has really severe reactions to wheat, his skin gets so bad when he eats it that it gets open sores and starts to come off, but he still loves it and definitely feels deprived without it. But, if he tried to overcome this problem by overfeeding he may die, so until some medication is found he is better off avoiding it. It is definitely a poisonous food for him, many foods are poisonous for some but healthy for others.
Did you do meth for fun or for bodybuilding? What all types of drugs did you use? This could help to explain a lot of your metabolic issues even more than diet.
Sugar makes me break out and gain belly fat BUT it makes my hands warm like nothing else, THAT is why I continue the journey. Cold hands and feet is a stress response to low blood sugar which is unhealthy when it happens everyday. My side effects are acne and some belly fat -things I believe I can overcome if I stick it out.
I did meth for fun but sometimes I had so much "fun" I forgot what day it was and got high on training days too.
Like I have stated before, I have been no angel and have harmed my body in many ways.
I've done many different drugs. For fun: Weed, speed, coke, ecstasy, freebase, meth, acid, mushrooms and all kinds of relaxers such as zanax abd so on.
For bodybuilding purpose; Very small amounts of anavar, since I've always put on a lot of muscle easily. I only used drugs pre comp. The drugs I used most was for "cutting" purpose, like T3, clenbuterol, HGH.
Funny thing, I felt the best (hormone wise) when I was ON. I had the best mental clarity and, clearest skin and mood.
The time it really started to go downhill for me, health wise, was when I tried to keep my weight after a comp (calorie restriction). I kept it for almost a year. I also didn't menstruate.
If I was you I would focus on finding a good doctor that specializes in hormones. You might have caused some pretty severe damage with the drug and lifestyle that now requires you to be on medication to function normally. I have heard of a lot of ex fitness and bodybuilding girls who now have to stay on thyroid medication after using it for competitions. You might ask Abel what he had to do to fix the fitness girls who used a lot of those drugs and caused metabolic damage, I think this is one of his specialties. He might be one of the only people in the world that has worked with lots of people in your situation.
On the temperature debate: temperatures may not be everything but to me they seem to be a pretty good indicator of feeling well, too. Personally, I find that my skin looks healthier when my temperature is closer to 98 degrees (it's usually lower). Also, I have noticed that lots of old people feel really cool to the touch. Funnily, one of the most healthy and youthful looking friends I have (is 40 but looks 28) also has cool hands most of the time. She's the one who wears a cardigan at the beach. That doesn't mean she's got no health problems, though. She has got one that is pretty terrible actually. She can't conceive.
I agree with JT that overfeeding can be a stress. I tried to do it and if I really stuff myself I can see my well-being take a nosedive. I feel sick and can't eat for up to 12 hours which usually results in my caloric intake being even lower than if I had just eaten to appetite. Maybe I got it all wrong and eating to uncomfortable fullness is not what overfeeding is about (Matt recently advised me not to stuff myself). But that's how I understood it when I made my first attempt at eating that way (mostly whole foods). I must admit though that I wasn't in the best condition when I started out on this 180 adventure 10 months ago. I had spent 4 months doing a Sisson-inspired diet which gave me gastroparesis (one of the most painful and frightening experiences I have had healthwise – frankly it feels as if you were never going to be able to eat again). I consumed way too much PUFA during those 4 months (eating nuts the whole time, and lots of avocado, then starting IF and sprints). I can now see that such a behavior had to lead to a crash and maybe I haven't recovered from it yet. If you say that some people become "obese, lethargic and depressed" on 180, JT, it is at least true for me. I got obese and I still have a lot of the health problems I tried to get rid of on Paleo. But I don't know whether there would have been another way to get out of the predicament I had gotten myself into. To me, being obese is certainly preferable to being sick or dead.
Debbie and Hans,
it seems you are both right. A man who is six feet tall and weighs 145 pounds has a BMI of 19.7. According to the WHO that is normal (the lower limit being 18.5). However, it seems that age should be factored in. So unless the guy you are talking about is younger than 25 he is underweight.
Yeah I know. I definitely have an hormone imbalance still. I have tried thyroid supplement but it caused my resting heart beat to go from 60 to 140 bpm. I was out of breath constantly and my heart was pounding like it was going to jump out of my chest. All those symptoms disappeared when I stopped the medication. Thyroid is not the issue but other hormones might be. I did contact Abel a few months ago but I can't afford him unfortunately. One thing he does state is forget about dieting. That I can follow but the rest is a mystery.
"98.6 is the average that was discovered, but nobody has proved it is optimal"
We don't have to prove that it's optimal.
98.6 is the temperature that Barnes found alleviated symptoms, which was an important aspect of his approach. Emphasizing symptoms, as opposed blood work alone, is something modern doctors frequently fail to do.
Optimal is another issue, but if someone can improve I think that's important.
Exactly, he is 32 I beleive. Thanks Greensmu
Sheila – Inability to tolerate much needed thyroid hormone is most commonly caused by:
1) Adrenal fatigue
2) Low iron; specifically ferritin – it needs to be at least 70 for thyroid absorption,
3) Low B12 – It needs to be at least 800.
Have you had these labs done?
I am sure you do need thyroid so all you gotta do is sort the rest.
Check out stopthethyroidmadness.com for in-depth info. Also, this page on co-factors is great: http://tiredthyroid.com/cofactors.html
I agree that overeating can be a stress and cause one to become used to overeating, etc. But, it's my understanding that overeating is supposed to be a very temporary thing on Rrarf. Personally, I only eat to appetite. If I overeat a little it's fine, or maybe once or twice a week I'll eat more because I'm out and loving the food, but I think our bodies relax when we really listen to them and give them what they ask for. That's the lowest-state stress, and I don't see why you couldn't get all of the benefits of rrarf that way. The problem is when people chronically undereat. Start eating to appetite again and your body will probably want to eat a lot at first but it will balance out naturally. The sooner you can get in tune with your body, the better.
I agree with Amy- my experience is that when I RRARF'ed, I thought I could eat food by the shovel-ful. I never felt not hungry, even when I was stuffed. I always had a bit of craving for more, even if my belly was distended and I'd have to roll out of the room or puke to get more down.
In the 'Overfeeding Reduces Insulin Resistance?' post, Matt said: 'First of all, ?overfeeding? is a misnomer and I should probably stop using it. Overfeeding, in the medical literature, means giving someone a closely-monitored increase in calories above their normal, weight-maintenance requirement. When people embark upon RRARF… calories are not monitored. Rather, one is asked to eat at least to the satisfaction of the natural appetite and perhaps a little BEYOND appetite. I don’t say to force feed, but explicitly say to ?eat as much as you can ENJOY. '
Perhaps there's the difference between what JT is calling overfeeding and what Brock is calling overfeeding. It seems plausible that overfeeding in the clinical-style sense might present the sort of harmful stress JT means, especially if continued indefinitely. But eating to the point of enjoyment is worth heeding, even if the short term feedback is not what we want. Seems to me that if we take seriously the idea of trusting biofeedback, then honoring cravings and eating as much as you want is important. For me, it resulted in an appetite more blunted on the whole than I can remember for at least a decade, and it makes sense to attribute that to honoring my cues and trusting that my body isn't trying to sabotage me. It's for that reason I'm not convinced that what JT describes (year+ long forced overfeeding resulted in that harmful stress) is possible- it's certainly not for me right now. So again- a difference between eating to appetite and eating just to get more down because Matt says so.
Agree with JT that Matt's talking shit about milk and the milk diet doesn't jive with me, and represents inappropriate extrapolation of his personal experience. And I remember months and months ago, someone pointed out the logical inconsistency of his stance of fat and starch (eat it until it doesn't cause problems) versus fruit and sugar (avoid it-it's straight up lousy for you). Glad he's exploring it now, and too bad he maybe kept people away from some valuable experimenting ahead of him.
I can see how JT's comments about Matt come off as backhanded compliments, and don't jive with that either. Still, part of what drew me to Matt was the fact hat he read Weston Price and Sally Fallon and Mercola and Gedgaudes, etc etc. and wasn't low carb. What the hell? That's where I was at that point having read all those folks. Reading his writing, I got the sense that- ok, maybe he has some valuable insight beyond what I've gathered so far- lemme pay attention and give him the benefit of the doubt. What compels me about some of JT's comments is they offer a similar window- here's someone who also is of seemingly sound mind who has been through and past the prevailing winds around here (low PUFA, refined carbs, body temperature focus, etc.) and has a different take. I want to pay attention and see why, and continue to run his comments against my experience and the framework I have.
I don't necessarily agree with hormone therapy or having to get professional help, or the resignation about dietary restrictions. The absence of the latter is another thing that draws me to 180 (the aspiration toward the famed adrenal type).
The peacemaker in me just wants to get some clarity about disagreements so that we identify our points of departure, and talk about them, instead of shadow boxing with straw men, and leaving folks feeling shitty and not heard.
Well said, Rob. I would like to add that having overeaten on Chocolate today (too much Easter candy…), this definitely feels like stress on my body. It makes me feel like rrarfing in the traditional sense!
Wouldn't be Easter without it, though.
Good points like always man.
Regarding my comments about Matt, they are not underhanded. But, we need to remember that at least half of all of Matts posts are deliberate personal and professional attacks on other diet gurus. This is why matt doesn't complain when someone does the same to him.
By overfeeding, I mean eatin to the point where your body has to increase the metabolic rate just to maintain homeostasis.
Thank you for your reply.
Interesting writing, I have in fact gotten blood work done that showed I'm borderline anemic and if I remember correctly, lowish in B12. But all that was before RRARFing, which I thought took care of that but of course I can't be sure.
If I am still low in iron, I don't know how I can up it since supplementing didn't help one bit, in the past.
Thanks for the links. I've actually read quite a bit on stopthethyroidmadness.com so I am familiar with that page. I haven't read the other one though.
I forgot to mention, when I took thyroid medication, not only did my heartbeat go crazy but my blood pressure dropped really low too. My temperature didn't budge one bit. Does that reaction mean anything specific? Do you know?
It could either mean that you took too much thyroid (how much did you take?) or that the thyroid you took was bad quality. Peat says that there are only a few thyroid brands in the US that are safe.
@ grassfed mom
74" = 188cm
185lbs = 84.1kg
BMI = weight in kg / height in m squared
makes a BMI of 23.79. The normal range is 18.5-25.
Did I miscalculate something?
The WHO website states: "BMI provides the most useful population-level measure of overweight and obesity as it is the same for both sexes and for all ages of adults."
The brand I took was Thyro-Gold:
which is supposed to be the best of the best. It is not as strong as prescription thyroid. I started out with one capsule and transitioned into 2 capsules after 2 weeks. I started feeling a bit uncomfortable even after just the dose of one capsule.
Well, they don't provide so much information on their site. How many grains is one capsule? I don't know what Coleus forskohlii is, but I would always be carefull if the supplement contains anything else than thyroid.
Peat told me that he stopped taking dessicated thyroid, because all the Americans brands contain dangerous additives or contaminants.
He also says that synthetic thyroid like Cynoplus is good, and pretty cheap.
"Each capsule contains 300 mg of thyroid powder from New Zealand pasture-fed cows, and 25 mg of Coleus forskohlii (10% forskolin)"
I don't know what the Coleus forskohlii is but I looked up how many mg goes to 1 grain -65mg. I am no math expert but according to my calculations 300mgs of thyroid powder equals 4,6 grains! If that is the case, no wonder my heart was about to jump out of my chest?? That is an insane starting dose, wouldn't you agree?
Hmm.. Maybe I should try splitting a capsule and see how I go..
I've also tried pure T3 a a year or so back, pretty high dose but didn't do anything other than making me a bit jittery.
I would just NEVER assume that B12, iron or any other nutrient is high. I know the consensus around here is to go by how you feel, but if you are low in thyroid function or have a damaged gut, you can't absorb vitamins and minerals properly, no matter how nourishing the diet. And sadly RRARFING is not a thyroid cure for everyone. So, you need to get those tests re-done.
I too assumed that my iron would stay high, but it fell again recently. I will see what happens with another year of ETF, but for now I have to regularly keep an eye on my iron and B12 levels.
If you can't get results with supplemental iron then you need to investigate your gut. Have you been tested for celiac disease/gluten intolerance? The enterolab tests are great IMO. Also, some people need to get iron IVs.
I asked Ray Peat for his opinion on this and he said that hypo women are vulnerable to low ferritin. He seemed to agree with the studies showing low ferritin prevents thyroid from getting to the cells. He doesn't want a person to have high iron however. The recommendation on thyroid forums is to have at least a ferritin of 70. Personally due to my negative experiences on T3 with low ferritin; I think 100 is more optimal. Ferritin over 100 is indicative of inflammation however. The best thing is to get a full iron loading panel.
Drop in blood pressure when thyroid is added indicates fatigued adrenals. Have you had an adrenal saliva test done? In fact, one of the things that docs use to assess adrenal function is blood pressure – if it drops going from sitting to standing this is indicative of low adrenal function.
I know all this because when I first added 1/2 grain of thyroid (which is NOTHING), my body went crazy with fornication, anxiety and a rapid heartbeat. I then got a saliva cortisol test showing a flat line cortisol all day. The only time it came into half decent range was night time; the time where you don't want it to be high!!!
The adrenals page on stop thethyroidmadness.com explains the relationship between the adrenals and the thyroid. It is simply impossible to tolerate thyroid with weak adrenals.
You won’t be able to tolerate ThyroGold, T3 or natural thyroid without sorting adrenals and then iron.
Where about in Europe are you? Could you travel to see a good doc? Are you allowed import medicines for personal use in your country?
I have spent time in all kinds of forums and invariable when one doesn't agree with the rest one can feel the negative vibes.
What we are talking here is about the best and safe nutrition and not about people. As a program you might have found it difficult to do but there are many who have found it to be too easy to do. Liberating as well.
So if the program works but you did not work the program (5 days over 3 is not a better excuse) doesn't mean that the program is wrong.
Agreed that you do not want to do it for your reasons. But just look at this article. Matt agrees with most of the book. Has started carbo loading with fruit. Has seen most of his prolonged nagging issues clear up. agrees that all primates bulk up on fruit and yet calls Doug and others wacko in his condescending tone!
Is that safe welcoming forum talk for you? He makes long term predictions on a diet that you tried for 5 days and he has probably tried for 5 months and based on other people's hearsay.
Yes, that's way too much. You should start with one or two grains. You should take so much thyroid that your pulse rate increases gradually by one beat/min per day. After about two weeks the T4 will reach a steady level in your tissues and then your adrenal function will normalize.
People who take a good thyroid supplement normally sort out their adrenal problems automatically.
Hans you are talking about my DAD Iam talking about Durianrider who is six ft 145lbs
@Lynn–you said your body 'went crazy with fornication'–what did that look like? Sounds like it could have been a lot of fun, with a willing partner around :)
Jannis – I know Peat believes in thyroid first and then adrenals. However, this just does not seem to work for many people. At all. I tried it that way and my body severely rejected the thyroid I so badly needed.
I recently asked Peat what we should be aiming for n a cortisol saliva test and he said the following:
""……the morning cortisol peak will be lower, preferably below the middle of the common range, and then it should decline in the afternoon".
In essence, the first cortisol sample should be mid range and decline as the day goes onwards. My cortisol was just a flat line all the way, but I couldn’t tolerate even 1/2 a grain of thyroid without HC.
Sheila – have a look at your adrenals and iron and then add thyroid 1/2 grain at a time.
Ela – That should have read forMication. It refers to the sensation of insects crawling up your skin. As you can imagine, it wasn’t fun. :)
@Lynn–no, formication is no fun at all! But what a fantastic typo!
Interesting. I also didn't tolerate my first thyroid supplement which contained T4 and T3. When I switched to T3 only, my situation greatly improved. I don't know whether I didn't tolerate the T4 because of low adrenal function, since I never had it measured.
First of, thanks for your detailed response. I appreciate it.
You made go have a look at all my past lab panels -that's a good thing.
I noticed in my first lab panel, I had higher Iron but with low Ferritin.
My next two lab panels showed a drop in Iron but then with a higher Ferritin? 2?nd lab showed Iron: 13 (range 9-34) and Ferritin 110 (range 10-220) 3'd lab showed Iron 11 (range 9-34) and Ferritin 117 (range 10-220)
Is it normal that iron levels rise when Ferritin drops and visa versa? I thought Iron and Ferritin went hand in hand?
I will add that when my Iron showed lowest was when I was actually taking the supplement.
I can also see that my B12 said 180 (range: 200-600) except when I was supplementing with B12 -that lab panel said 884 (range 200-600) As soon as I stopped the supplement it went back to low.
I also got a Coeliac Serology done but I never really got a good explanation of the results, by the doctor. The lab panel said: tTG IgA antibodies: 2 (range 0-6) IgA: 2 (range 0.7-4.0)
Does that mean I am sensitive to gluten?
Excuse me for giving you all this blood work but you seem to know Iron/ferritin, B12 and it's possibly correlation to gluten and why thyroid medication isn't working for me.
Another thing, when I was on the thyroid medication, I almost immediately broke out with a cold sore (something I only get when stressed or sick) and generally felt like I was getting sick, but I never did.
I wouldn't be surprised if I have adrenal fatigue, I am very sensitive to stress. I just thought that resting and not stressing would heal them but that might not be the case? what else can I do?
Even though ETF has done wonders for me. It made my period come back and in general I feel better but I must admit I can still have episodes of dizziness, especially when standing up from a lying/sitting position.
Regarding the Adrenal salvia test. I have not have one done, only a blood test for cortisol, which at the time came up high 628 (range 171-536) but this was during dieting and hard training.
Doctors here in Denmark are paid by the government so I can go to them all I want for free but you can't pick your doctor, you get the one nearest to you and that is unfortunately not always (never) the best doctor. What I do is use them for lab work and then do my own research.
Imported medicines needs to be discussed with your doctor but it's not a walk in the park to get it. For instance, we still use T4 as thyroid medication, here in Denmark. My doctor hadn't heard of dessicated thyroid!
I'm just thinking, can it really be true that Thyro-Gold contains 4,6 grains in one capsule?? It sounds a little insane, but I guess numbers don't lie. 300mg in each capsule is 4,6 grains -doing as little google reseach.
Even if I split the capsule, it would only put me on 2,3 grains?? If I split it even further, I will have to use a magnifying glass to even see the powder!
I definitely think that you should be able to pick a new doctor
you can check it out here:
Afstanden skal v?re UNDER 15km. Det er ikke altid nok ;-/
And JT- I hesitate to call 'at least half' of Matt's posts deliberate personal or professional attacks on other authors. Here's what he posted in March and April, and my assessments of the accuracy of your claims:
How to Cut a Mango – nope
The 80-10-10 Diet (811rv) -sure
The Bulimia Bandit – nope
Mark Sisson – sure
East West Healing on Blogtalk Radio – nope
Traditional Diets – maybe
Sucrose vs. Starch and Fat – nope
Fertility Diet – nope
The Importance of Metabolism -nope
Talenti Gelato -nope
Whee, This Health Stuff is Easy! – nope
Sloth Metabolism – nope
The Limitations of Interval Training – maybe?
The Calorie Restriction Myth – maybe?
Joanne Unleashed – nope
Conversation with East West Healing – nope
How to Cook Dark Leafy Greens – nope
Val Kilmer McCully – definitely nope, quite the opposite
Protein – A Closer Look – nope
Adrenal Fatigue – nope
Blackstrap Molasses – Sweet Superfood – nope
Buster Martin – Fukitol Spokesman – nope
How I Built 15 Pounds of Muscle – nope
Natural Testosterone Enhancement – nope
What sample setare you looking at?
My sense is that Matt is usually quite the opposite- fair and decent and generous in his reporting on others, and quite willign to acknowledge their strengths even when it's clear he doesn't think they have all that much to offer. See, for example, his Body by Design review here: 180metabolism.com/blog/?p=116
In his post about Mark Sisson, he says this:
"For starters, I want to make this perfectly clear. Sisson is one of the best health icons on earth ? he’s truly the best of the low-carbers. He is running around advocating a nutritious, whole foods-based diet with no truly crippling restrictions ? sort of an 80/20 rule approach. The guy drinks coffee at times, eats chocolate, has cheat meals, and otherwise has taken a general health ?blueprint? and custom built it into something fairly safe, reasonable, easy to follow, and fun. His exercise advice is great. He encourages good sleep, lots of rest, having fun outdoors, getting natural sunlight ? the list of pros goes on and on.
In an honest review of a health guru, you have to admit ? he’s really on track with a lot of stuff. "
So again man- hwo do you substantiate that bold claim?
Like I said, the product doesn't look so good, imo. Cynoplus, for example, contains only 120mcg of T4 and 30mcg of T3 per tablett. And you can split that tablett into very small pieces.
A thought has been nagging at me lately.
Did anyone see the faileo on 30BAD that Nikoley tweeted and blogged about? Really really sad story of a kid who gained fat and acne and was still sticking it out (with encouragement from Durianrider, etc.) on 811rv.
OK, I'm just gonna say it:
What I've been thinking lately is that 811 appears to work better for women, and paleo appears to work better for men. It's sometimes frustrating, as a woman, to see the amazing fat loss results men get from paleo and Lean Gains, for instance. It's also frustrating to see the fat loss results low-fat raw vegan women get. And actually, the only fat loss success I've had in the last few years (besides water fasting) was doing a relatively low fat raw vegan-y style thing, with some cooked food and overfeeding days thrown in.
Ideas? Men need protein, women need sugar? Testosterone vs. estrogen? Hunters vs. gatherers?
Men who overfeed on meat and fat get lean while women gain fat but women who overfeed on fruits & veg are more likely to lean out?
Sounds like hormones to me.
This is all anecdotal and there is no evidence to back it up, just how it appears and maybe availability bias at work…
Gazelle–that's an interesting thought, and I don't have any immediate scientific answers.
I have to tell you, though, that back when I was totally enmeshed in the raw vegan world, there were definitely some folks who theorized that 80-10-10 was a 'guy's' diet and that the lower sugar, higher fat, nuts/seeds/greens version of raw veganism was more for women. I think that that may have been partly based on the second one being more food-prep- and labor-intensive whereas 80-10-10 is more grab and go and some stereotyping about which gender prefers to prep food. I never saw a big gender polarization between which flavor worked for whom, but that's another theory that used to be current (could be still, for all I know) anyway.
Was iron directly measured or was it just haemoglobin? The reason I ask is because haemoglobin is usually used as a measure of iron, but it’s not actually iron. Haemoglobin can be falsely inflamed by dehydration, which is very common as people rush to doc’s office to get tests done.
Also, were all these tests done in a fasting state? Were you on or off iron supps at the time?
Iron rising when ferritin drops is pretty unusual and confusing. Whereas haemoglobin can easily rise when ferritin is low. At my last test, my haemoglobin was falsely elevated because I was thirsty (read dehydrated) when bloods were taken. However, ferritin was low, which revealed my true iron status.
Your B12 is dangerously low. I don’t want to sound alarmist or scare you here, but B12 levels that low can cause paralysis. I’m not kidding. You need to take a good B12 supplement ASAP. Jarrow methyl 5000 is great. You would need to take it every day along with a B complex.
If you supplement with B complex or B12 in any form, your B12 will be falsely elevated for up to a year. So if you are supping, you are actually looking for the B12 to be WELL OVER the lab range. Plus, that lab range is hideous, since B12 needs to be at least 800 and MORE if you are supping. Check out this interview: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4hzhdREDng and her book: http://www.amazon.com/Could-Be-B12-Epidemic-Misdiagnoses/dp/1884956467
I would ask doc to test me for pernicious anaemia with a B12 that low. I'd also suspect celiac disease or other gut problems.
However, bloods for celiac disease are not very accurate at all. Enterolab accept ‘samples? from all over the world.
If you have severe enough adrenal fatigue you may need hydrocortisone. I am on it and may need it for life. Adrenal saliva tests are more accurate IMO than bloods. This is partly because being stuck with a needle is inherently stressful, as is travelling to the clinic to get the blood taken. So cortisol may rise above baseline. Whereas the saliva tests can be done in one’s own home. Hence the extra stress element is removed.
Medicine is very backwards here in Ireland too and it’s illegal for Internet pharmacies to sell here. So I travelled abroad originally for treatment.
Gazelle to your point on 811 rv vs paleo, I have seen lean women who are paleo.. but I too have felt that eating more meat/fat made me meaty and fatty too! The leanest but caveat *UN heathiest* I was in my adult life was on raw vegan. Would I like to lose the lbs I have put on being an omnivore, Hell Yes. Would I like to go back to my raw vegan life, hell NO.
so what I am trying to do is
1. eat cooked and raw veg
2. eat fruit
3. eat some dairy
4. eat meat in small amounts
5. eat rice and corn but no wheat
6. use only saturated fats, no PUFA
but being meno, this shit is just stuck on me like white on rice and to be honest, I don't think I will be losing much weight but I will feel healthy and able to function as I like to.
OK–assuming this doesn't disappear into cyberspace, I have one more question before we migrate to the next comment-wagon.
I'm wondering about the 'looks' thing again. I know that in terms of internal health, looks aren't everything. I also know that there are reasons why we evaluate certain looks as 'healthy' and others as less so.
It's been 4-5 years since I've seen Doug Graham or Durianrider in person, and I hadn't been following them, looking at pics of them, or anything. And there is more of a change in their appearance over that space of time than for anyone else I can think of, no matter their diet. I'm not even sure I'd have recognized Harley. Yes, older looking; yes, way skinnier. Back then, he was lean but not skinny at all.
It's just curious to me that these are two different guys at different ages, different nationalities and perhaps genetics, been on the diet different lengths of time, and both of them showing this marked aging in appearance. Is the diet or the endurance exercise the common denominator?
Or should we even worry about appearance?
hey guys, I just found out what treadmill were really best for!
Sorry in advance to all animal lovers.
Grassfedmomma- You look VERY skinny in your photo. Like 110 lbs skinny. Are you sure you need to lose weight? :)
Who woulda thunk you could get such a good *upper* body workout from a treadmill? Smarty cat!
Deb, hilarious! Thanks for sharing :-)
I have not been 110 since maybe 12? Thanks though. When raw 125lbs last Inc visit 143. Usually 130-135. I workout a lot and that pic was last august @135. Lbs or so which I would like to see again:)
ok, not 'Inc' I meant Onc as in oncologist office.
Also the fat that has layered on is in the lovely area of my lower stomach, right where my Sam stretched it waaaaaaaaaayyy out.. there were no 'deposits' there but as I am getting older, yeah, it's laying on there like the proverbial spare tire, only lower. fucking hate that.
It was Iron that was directly measured because I got the following tests also:
Red cells: 2,7 range 3,7-5,5
hemoglobin: 6,9 range 7,4-9,6
Neutrophils: 1,6 range 1,7-7,50
I've gone through some of the other blood test and I can see a pattern with the other tests, showing I'm lacking B12 -seems like my body can't absorb it.
I also have high readings on all my kidney tests which I've always suspected since I have trouble with my water balance (edema), don't urinate most of the day but only at night, right before bed and in the middle of the night, plus most of the time my urine is clear, even though I haven't been drinking too much.
God I hate doctors! Nobody has been able to help me, even though the blood test are yelling something is wrong!
I was on iron pills for 2 weeks, after my very first test. I cut it short after I found out how toxic iron pills can be. Actually, my first test was pretty descent all over, only my kidney test was something that jumped in my eyes but that was also when everything started going downhill (hair loss, fatigue, edema, weight gain etc.) Next test was when I was on natural iron (kra’terblut) but that did squat for my readings.
Test was i a fasted state yes.
It amazes me why no one (doctor) have told me that my B12 was alarming. Again, I hate those darn doctors! Thank you for the tip about Jarrows -I will look into that asap! Now we're talking B12 -I remember when I was supping with a b-complex, my hair became much softer, like how it was in the past. Right now my hair has shrunk about 60-70% in thickness and is very coarse and dry. My hair used to be very shiny.
I will check out Enterolab as well, it might be my only chance to get some real answers.. Thank you!
I have tried many times staying away from gluten but I might have to exclude it TOTALLY for an extended period, just to see if it reliefs me of any of my symptoms.
Regarding doing salvia instead of blood cortisol, might be a better option for me too, since I always faint when getting blood drawn, which is stressful in itself.
i am in ireland and i'm 99% sure i need hydrocortisone. i don't have adrenal fatigue as such but definite low cortisol symptoms, i think maybe a pituitary problem. almost 15 years now and no change whatsoever in symptoms. i would greatly appreciate if you could email me any info you have about treatment for this here. i can't travel abroad for it. thank you.
slept at eircom dot net
I'm just thinking, can it really be true that Thyro-Gold contains 4,6 grains in one capsule?? It sounds a little insane, but I guess numbers don't lie. 300mg in each capsule is 4,6 grains -doing as little google reseach.
Thyro-Gold is simply freeze-dried desiccated thyroid gland while the Armour is concentrated thyroid.
From what I've researched and read 60 mgs (1 grain) of purified Armour thyroid equals 250 mg of desiccated thyroid or less.
The amount of thyroid hormones in desiccated OVC supplements will vary depending on the concentration of the hormones in the animal tissue. Armour is standardized and provides strictly defined dosage of T3, T4 and other hormones.
So one Thyro-Gold capsule, which contains 300 mg of thyroid powder, equals one grain of Armour at best.
Thank you very much for that clarification.
That means Thyro-Gold is not strong at all. With that said, one capsule made me uncomfortable and two just made me down right terrible!
Sheila, I think you were lucky that you experimented with Thyro-Gold rather than Armour. Imagine what would have happened if you had taken one or two grains of Armour…
As you have already been told here such an extreme sensitivity to thyroid supplementation may point to weak adrenals.
Yeah, thank goodness! It scared me quite a bit when my heartbeat all of a sudden was doing 140 bpm.
What baffles me is WHY are my adrenals so weak and why won't the recover?
So you don't think it's a good idea to pay freelee 600/month to give me her uneducated advice? But she's a fruitionist!
Honestly, are there people who are dumb enough to pay her to teach them how to eat fruit?
The 30bad people are freaking me out.
She's the fruity peeble bait and he is a Major troll. Lovely couple.
#Check out Freelee's latest video. It was filmed yesterday.
# Doug Graham looks old cos he IS OLD! lol! He is 60 next year.
#The fittest and strongest athletes in the health scene are the vegans. Mike Arnstein, Scott Spitz, Mike Mahler, Mac Danzig, Mike Tyson, Robert Cheeke, Noah Hannibal, 6pak, Jeff Eggleston etc.
#The hottest chicks in the health scene are vegan too.
Sheila, get on the b12 injections. They are all the rage in weight loss clinics and amongst body builders for losing excess flab and feeling more vital. Google it.
Anyone saying 'b12 injections are only for vegans' well they dont know much. Thats like saying 'only runners need running shoes'.
@anonymous 811 person:
60 is not old, far from it if you are truely healthy.
And they may look hot now, but let's give them ten years or so, freelee included. I can point you in the direction of some distinctly NOT hot vegans, in fact I know a few personally.
I love bananas too but not in lieu of other foods.
Maybe it's just me but I don't consider freelee hot. The chipmunk cheeks and fake boobs just don't do it for me.
I agree that anyone who would pay an uneducated person to teach them how to eat fruit is a f'in nut.
I think it's funny how harley (durianrider) is always bitching about vitalis & wolfe making money selling their products, but harley & his sidekick girlfriend charge $650/month for a few hours of mentoring? (this is how you eat fruit)
Who are the con artists?
Seconding what Deb said–60 _isn't_ old!
My husband is 62 (I'm 34) and he looks younger than that–and I don't think he looks especially youthful (although he definitely acts youthful/plays hard).
This is the first time I've visited this blog and I find many of you are very judgmental and critical of the people involved in the low fat raw vegan movement. I thought the point was to discuss the pros and cons of the diet and not disparage those that promote and or follow it.
And I saw comments from those that tried it for a short period of time (like 3 days!) then state it doesn't work?
Perhaps you all should check out the book from your local library and read it before you judge it on the comments of a few. 811rv is more than just a diet.
If nothing else, it can provide ideas for change that can have long-term health benefits for all of us even if you don't follow it 100%.
I have spent months reading every book on diets and eating plans written by every expert out there. This diet makes the most sense of all.
Here's a picture of Doug Graham from March 2011:
Doesn't look too bad to me.
I've always wanted to know what do they mean when they say overt fats?
Is there something wrong with Graham's cheeks/jaws – his face seems to have expanded compared to the previous video 10 yrs ago? Granted the second video is more of a close up but the first video, what I can see, it looks like his face is smaller.
JT, good comments, lots to think about.
Sue: 'overt fats' means fatty foods, as opposed to the small amounts of fats in fruits and vegetables, which can mount up if you eat enough calories from them.
And I was put off by the Graham cheek/jowl thing too, but have seen other recent pics now and think that maybe it's just an artifact of that particular angle/lighting possibly?
I posted yesterday, but today I found that it never showed up. WTH? :(
All your anaemia markers were low in those tests you just posted above. Ferritin can also be a marker for inflammation, so raising iron may just be revealing your already present inflammatory state. That’s my hypothesis anyway. I’d advise you to post at realthyroidhelp or yahoo natural thyroid group for further info on iron markers such as these. How high was your iron though? Iron itself fluctuates dramatically from meal to meal and hour to hour though, so the most accurate markers of iron status are: ferritin, iron binding capacity and transferritin. Did you have those done?
The low neturophils indicate impaired immunity also; which leads nicely onto the adrenal function. Sadly, the adrenals can become exhausted through the following: stress, amphetamine/stimulant drug use, over exercising and under eating. I think you did them all.
Low adrenal function leads to all sorts of nasty intolerance effects when a person takes thyroid: http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/adrenal-info/
I hate docs too. I now treat them like lab technicians. I go in, demand labs, suggest a diagnosis and beg for a prescription. Funny thing; they will give out anti depressants and other big Pharma drugs no probs, but getting bio identicals like HC and thyroid out of them is so hard.
I have a doc that gives me natural thyroid no problem, but the stupid endo she made me see has demanded that I go off HC; no matter how ill it makes me feel. She was perfectly willing to prescribe me HC until he told her that if she went over him, her license would be in danger. No matter how ill I feel without my HC. He told her to wean me off over a year, so if I can’t then I will have to go abroad for my HC again. Crazy stuff……
At least in America, there are many functional medicine docs. You may have to travel interstate to see them, but at least they are there. Whereas in Europe, we usually have to travel abroad to see someone like that. Plus, I can't think of one single doc in Europe that does the RT3 protocol for example.
Who told you about the toxicity of iron pills? Ray Peat says iron is toxic, BUT he also agrees that hypothyroidism leads to a low iron state, which is not good. After consulting with him, reading the experiences of countless thyroid patients and going by my own experiences as a menstruating woman (thus blood loss on a regular basis), I am supping iron until my ferritin reaches 100 and my other iron markers are where they need to be.
I suggested Jarrow B12 pills because I thought they would be the easiest to get but with levels as low as yours, I'd want injections personally. Can you import stuff like that or are they custom Nazis in Denmark? Does everything have to go through a doctor first?
Disclaimer: I am not a doctor, but I am more concerned about your B12 than your thyroid or anything else. Personally, I'd demand a pernicious anaemia test. Once that is done and you are cleared of that, I'd supp B complex and B12 every day. Then re-test in three months to see how your levels are improving.
I think you also need to find out WHY you are not absorbing B12. Re: enterolab, I suggest getting the full 'Gluten/Antigenic Food Sensitivity Stool/Gene Panel with Fat Malabsorption Stool Test added'.
According to enterolab: ?The tests in this panel and test are complementary: the gluten sensitivity stool test looks for the antibodies produced by your body against gluten, and the malabsorption test assesses whether your intestine is malabsorbing dietary nutrients because of damage, even slightly so, by gluten (or perhaps other factors), and the gene test assesses your risk based on your genetic predisposition. It is even possible that possessing the gene, per se, may be enough to predict that you will experience better health and feel better by eliminating gluten from your diet?.
It is expensive, but the euro to dollar rate is quite good at the moment. You will need to ship it overnight via Fed Ex as a ?biological sample?.
As for going gluten free, it’s not as easy as people think. Post number 9 by Hypothyroidceliac in this thread explains how to do it properly: http://forums.realthyroidhelp.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=12054
If you faint when you get blood drawn, then blood tests are obviously a significant stressor to your body. Any type of stress like this will raise cortisol. The impact of stress on cortisol is so well documented that when people undergo STIM tests (a very through adrenal test), they are hooked up to IVs when the nurse is injecting stuff into them so that they don’t get stressed from a needle. Also, the good nurses even tiptoe up to them and talk very quietly so as to keep the atmosphere as clam as possible.
Thanks Ela. maybe Graham had some kind of salivary gland swelling or stones?
Maybe Doug Graham is just so skinny that his jaw bone sticks out more than other folks. Just a thought. Or the bananas did it!
About Grete Waitz, she used to train before breakfast early in the morning and she usually didn't eat anything before training. This may have multiplied the stress induced by the exercise. In Ray Peats article about lactate, CO2 and cancer, he says that ?Incidental stresses, such as strenuous exercise combined with fasting (e.g., running or working before eating breakfast) not only directly trigger the production of lactate and ammonia, they also are likely to increase the absorption of bacterial endotoxin from the intestine. Endotoxin is a ubiquitous and chronic stressor. It increases lactate and nitric oxide, poisoning mitochondrial respiration, precipitating the secretion of the adaptive stress hormones, which don't always fully repair the cellular damage.
Peat says that eating raw carrots can help to reduce the absorption of endotoxin, so maybe it is a good idea for athletes to eat something that has this effect in combination with hard races and workouts. Also eating a lot of carbohydrates is important since then more protective CO2 will be produced.
I can't see that a low resting body temperature and metabolism will give the best endurance performance. Shouldn't it be the case that a high resting metabolism will make you recover faster after an exercise session, which is crucial to be able to perform at highest level? It is right that if you can burn fewer calories per mile it can take you longer, but if the goal is to run as fast as possible on a certain distance, then you will run faster the more calories you burn per time. In studies about marathon running back to the end of the 60s, it was found that the runners that had the highest metabolic rate and highest body temperatures, between 104 and 106 degrees F, (average at 102) during racing, were also the best runners in the races examined. These runners were also the runners that had been sweating the most. The runner that won a marathon race in Oxford in 1967, had lost twelve pounds of weight during that race. When Haile Gebrselassie set the new world marathon record of 2.03.59, he had lost 10 percent of his body weight, but he wouldn't have done this if he couldn't have kept a high metabolic rate during the race. The amount of calories that are burned is proportional to the heart rate, but isn't it that people that have a slow metabolism may have more difficulties working out close to their maximum pulse?
Endurance training will make you able to keep a higher running speed with less effort, which results from factors as improved running economy, increased blood capillaries or lactate threshold shifted to higher intensity. Running economy can also be improved by better running technique, strength training or things like eccentric stretching. An elite cyclist that has very good stamina is not necessary a good runner, because the running economy may not be very good.
As long as there is no calorie deficit, there are studies showing that endurance training will not necessary lead to a lower resting metabolic rate: http://www.ajcn.org/content/68/1/66.abstract
Increased production of catecholamines may keep up the metabolic rate, but endurance training may decrease the level of thyroid, and this will have negative effect on the performance. Thyroid hormones are central in the energy metabolism, and may be important in the removal of lactate. I think that the best endurance athletes are those that can train as much as possible and also manage to keep up their thyroid function. Endurance athletes that become hypothyroid will experience a drop in performance. The problem by too much exercise can be that there will be a deficiency in glucose and then less T4 will be converted to T3. Exercise will also increase the requirement for thyroid hormones and therefore the requirement for protein will be higher. Eating more salt may also be good for endurance athletes.
I think eating a 180dh style diet with high carbohydrate and with some more protein, with the good kind of amino acids, is probably what will give the best endurance performance. Having a low body weight is not important in all endurance sports, but it is an advantage in running. There have been many runners that have tried to become extra fit by losing some extra weight before the competition season or before an important race, but eating a diet that will strip you from muscles and fat through a whole year of massive training will not give the best peak performance.
Do you know if you have enough stomach acid? Because the absorption of both iron and vitamin b12 depends on the amount of stomach acid.
someone posted a link before about the diet of elite kenyan runners. they ate i think around 4000 calories, 80% carbs, a lot of which was sugar in tea. actually the sample meals were almost vegan except for some cream. they also only trained at high intensity for 30min each day.
Just to make sure, there was no evidence that the 80-10-10 Anonymous user was "trolling." Anonymous was just offering his/her opinions on the 80-10-10 diet.
It might be possible that some people have misinterpreted Anonymous' comment.
Let us look at what Anonymous said:
"So you don't think it's a good idea to pay freelee 600/month to give me her uneducated advice? But she's a fruitionist!"
"Honestly, are there people who are dumb enough to pay her to teach them how to eat fruit?"
If you read the above quotations, you might think that Anonymous was attacking you by calling you "uneducated" or "dumb." However, that is false. It was not an attack. What Anonymous was really trying to say was that freelee's advice is not worthy because you don't need any advice to eat fruit. Thus, it would be more accurate that Anonymous was attacking freelea rather than any 180 follower.
Here is another comment which might be misinterpreted:
"The 30bad people are freaking me out."
If you look at the quotation, you will see "30bad people." You will think that Anonymous is saying 30 people are "bad" in some way. If you think about this further you might conclude that Anonymous was attacking the "30 bad people who follow Matt Stone."
You are wrong. Anonymous had not meant this in that way. Let us see the phrase "30bad people" again.
If you look closely, you will realize that there is no space in between "30" and "bad" in the phrase "30bad."
You might think that was a typo, but you are wrong. "30bad people" does NOT mean that "30 people are bad (as in evil)". The term "30bad" represents something different. The term "30bad" represents "30 B.A.D.", which means "30 Bananas A Day."
So Anonymous was being unclear when he/she said "30bad people." So a lot of you might got the wrong idea that Anonymous was a troll.
Wow, just about everything in this article is factually incorrect.
Someone defensive about their meat-eating? And, eww, looks like he's storing nuts in his cheeks. That's not very kind.
It's worth remembering that health isn't just about diet. Of course, there are other factors involved including good genes or otherwise inherited from parents and ancestors, over-work leading to sleep deprivation and stress, grief, etc. etc. Plenty of travel flights also affects skin? Anyhow, Dr Graham's appearance doesn't seem it's altered a great deal, aside from his hair.
It's worth reading this blog about the real reasons why TC Fry died so young. http://debbietookrawforlife.blogspot.com/2009/06/why-did-t-c-fry-die-so-young.html
And also this video of Debbie Took on AlisonAndrew's channel on youtube, amongst the others there featuring others also living on fruit.
Also the hunter gatherer theory at vegsource.com
He is 60 years old. I hope I’m alive at 60, let alone having a 6 pack. Stop hatin.
I think that rap must have been an influence on Gerardo.
“A heavy dose of both skepticism and reality is what I hope to offer here for those out there who are perhaps following that diet and having some health challenges come up.”
I like this. Much needed indeed.
The insights in your article seem to be supported by the evidence gathered thanks to one censorship-free forum:
Censorship, bullying and lies seem to be the tactics used by some of those you mention in your article. Thanks for offering an exit out of that intellectual abyss.
Using GVO prospect each of the efforts is performed available for you, you simply arrange it as well as market!! Test it!!
It seems like the Japanese have a high carb, lowish protein, normal fat diet (similar to what you are advocating, no?)…why do you think a lot of them have such ultra crooked teeth? I am eating way less protein and more rice and carbs etc, less fat and my teeth have been super sensitive so I am paranoid!! Any thoughts why a seemingly healthy Japanese diet produces kids with such crooked teeth? Someone blamed it on their small protein intake. Or is it lack of minerals?
I can definitely see why a Vegan diet would mess up your kids’ teeth, but why a Japanese diet?
I would think with such a high percentage of calories coming from white rice that might be a contributing factor. But there are probably many others. Overall I’m not sure if their dentition is any better or worse than in Western countries.
OMG, I love that rap LOL! My mom, sis and me would sing it all of the time.
I could not live on the 80-10-10 but have a friend who is doing because of digestive reason. So far so good. She is from Russia and says she already has bad teeth so why not right? :)