Most people in the modern?world?look at images like the one of Tom Venuto in stage-ready condition’to the left, as being the iconic portrait of a healthy metabolism. Likewise, I think a lot of health and fitness writers and other people in health circles glue the concept of?health with people’s selfish desires to?meet the?current aesthetic ideal set forth by the bodybuilding, fitness,?and?modeling industries. Sticking these two?concepts together makes the desire to diet down and overexercise to the?point of extreme leanness?even more desirable, and provides rational justification in one’s mind for putting so much time and effort into what, under the surface, has nothing to do with health and everything to do with a desire to achieve an elite level of awesome dominance over other members of the same sex.
Basically, this is all a lie.
Doing a bunch of exercising and dieting and getting down to very low levels of body fat is extremely destructive to the metabolism. With the central role metabolic rate plays in total health and proper function of basically all our body’s systems – both physical and mental/emotional, it’s extremely risky and even dangerous to?attempt to do such a thing.? Outwardly signs of low metabolic rate such as low resting pulse and low body temperature are just as severe in fitness athletes and bodybuilders in a stage-ready state as that found in those with eating disorders.
Bodybuilders and fitness athletes are often in denial about this, pointing out that resting metabolic rate is much higher than say, an anorexic runway model. Yes, a bodybuilder has a higher total metabolic rate because he or she has more lean body mass. But metabolic rate calculated just in terms of total calorie usage is irrelevant. That’s like saying a 200-pound 70-year old woman?has a higher metabolic rate than a 45-pound 7-year old girl?because’she needs more calories each day’to maintain her weight.
Um, I don’t think so. What matters is calorie burn per pound of lean tissue, which is why markers like body temperature and resting pulse are better indicators of one’s metabolism than calorie burn. To help solidify this concept’so we can move on, here’s a quiz question…
Who has a lower metabolism?
- Natural bodybuilder with 150 pounds of lean mass that burns 1900 calories per day at rest
- Anorexic with?75 pounds of lean mass that burns 1000 calories per day at rest
If you said the anorexic has a higher metabolic rate,?you win! (nothing)
Okay, one more…
Who has a higher metabolism?
- Old granny with?75 pounds of lean mass that burns 1200 calories per day at rest
- 4-year old kid with 25 pounds of lean mass that burns 1200 calories per day at rest
The kid. Obviously. Three times higher if these were real numbers. Okay, moving on. Hopefully that diversion was conceptually helpful, and will also make your eyebrows crinkle the next time you hear a diet author instruct you to gain a pound of muscle because “muscle burns calories and will make your metabolism higher.”? I wrote more about this in an old post called The Definition of Metabolism.?
Let’s look more?carefully at’this. A week ago a study came out documenting some of the changes that a natural bodybuilder underwent while dropping body fat in preparation for a bodybuilding competition. He turned 27 during the study. These are the changes he experienced. I didn’t see body temperature mentioned, but the drop in heart rate and testosterone is freaking scary and reminiscent of the postI did several months ago on?Coldmember, a young kid who completely destroyed his?body and mind?pursuing these ideals. ????
“Heart rate decreased from 53 to 27 bpm during preparation and increased to 46 bpm within one month following competition; brachial blood pressure dropped from 132/69 mmHg to 104/56 mmHg during preparation and returned to 116/64 mmHg at 6 months following competition; percent body fat declined from 14.8% to 4.5% during preparation and returned to 14.6% during recovery; strength decreased during preparation and did not fully recover during 6 months of recovery; testosterone declined from 9.22 ng/mL to 2.27 ng/mL during preparation and returned back to the baseline level, 9.91 ng/mL, following competition; total mood disturbance increased from 6 to 43 units during preparation and recovered to 4 six months following competition.” Natural Bodybuilding Competition Preparation and Recovery
Basically, in achieving the look that?is perversely becoming the iconic ideal for male sexuality, this guy achieved near-castration level testosterone and the metabolism of Wilford Brimley (not that I’m suggesting Wilford has a low heart rate, that’s a different and very complicated?conversation altogether).?As I have mentioned in the past, I find it?quite ironic that we, as a society, are becoming increasingly attracted to infertile people. Women seem to be even more negatively impacted by’these things, and become infertile with?a cessation of the menstrual cycle, even more quickly.
The reason I’m posting this is to’shed light on the other side of the story. In a society that is worshipping people who do this to themselves AND think that it’s all perfectly, maybe?even optimally?healthy, somebody has to step in and say something sane. I will happily volunteer.
Cringe-inducing finish…
If concentration camp?Jews had?access to?good gym equipment, some BCAA’s, NO-Xplode, some spray tan, a “cheat day” here and there, and a little help from Vitamin T – they would have looked?and basically been in?a similar condition to today’s figure competitors?and bodybuilders.
I have?nothing against some physical activity. Weightlifting and gaining a little muscle is great. Eating healthier (clean, as bodybuilders call it)?is a great intervention for some people as well (not all). But the bodybuilding and fitness competition world has created an?illusion that’these people?are health ambassadors in some way. Not true at all. In the next post, I would like’to discuss frequent early?death and heart disease amongst bodybuilders and powerlifters to ice this?rice cake.
As a lady, just want to say that I am not very attracted to that man. The muscle is good, but he needs more flesh! I think it’s the male ideal and not the female.
And as for that muscle-y woman – yuck! She looks manly.
It’s funny that she’s blowing a kiss. Her mouth is probably too dry to do any blowing of the sexual variety. And too dry elsewhere to offer up much in that department either. Maybe that’s why she’s oiled up. Porn for males that prefer dry humping over the real thing.
Fake bodies, fake sex, then!
I think the fleshlight came out about the same time as the Paleo diet…
Lol. I have a feeling that most women are still attracted to fertile men, and most men to fertile-looking women, largely for the reasons you listed, and we instinctively sense it!
I think women’s media post photos of women that women find attractive, and men’s media post photos of men that other men find attractive – fertility does not count in these scenarios.
You’re right Amy, I’ve always told my friends that the male model or bodybuilder does nothing for me. I don’t think it’s attractive at all, physically and mentally- a guy whose that into his body is just a turn off in my opinion.
And I notice that girls idolize runway models, while I’ve heard many men comment that they’re too thin. Whenever I’m feeling crappy about my body my boyfriend tells me that if he wanted to date a girl with a 12-yr-old boys body he would, but that’s not want he wants, haha.
lol
Well I have to be honest and admit I like both looks – male and female,
even though I fully understand the toll on the body to get there!
But I would like to look like that woman, for sure.
I love the article though.
It is good to publicize that this look that so many strive to achieve is not a healthy state at all.
I read a discussion forum recently where people were talking about how sex with lean and fat women is different. Several argued that they lasted longer during sex with lean & athletic women. They could go like a jackhammer and not get off, while their stamina was almost nothing with overweight women. The theory was that lean women have less padding or friction, you know. But like you say, they’re also likely to be infertile & have screwed-up metabolism and emotions, along with single-digit body-fat men. It causes problems in your nervous system, I’ve read and heard from body-builders.
Another thing to remember here is that contest-ready means a lot lower body fat than fitness models or most body-builders have during the off-season. Few guys (like Clarence Bass) have a contest-ready body fat year-round and he also has no hair and has mentioned occasionally how he’s a fat magnet if he doesn’t exercise, despite eating unbroken dry whole grains, beans, lean meat, fat-free dairy, and other low-fat staples. He exercises like Jack LaLanne, counts calories and claims to manage his weight mostly by food choice.
Ha-ha
One of my male friends thinks sex with skinny women sucks..
And fuller figured women are much better in bed.
But going back and fourth is worse than maintaining one or the other.
i agree with Amy, personally i’ve never liked that beefy look like what they go for in Jersey shore, or even slightly beefy, i think bulging muscles are ugly, nicely defined forearms is nice but subtle. i think the majority of girls prefer relaxed men who aren’t so vain or neurotic about their body, a real man.
Is that her real head?
Anyway. Matt, I’m reading the new book and as many articles as I can get my warm hands on. I’ve reviewed the book on Amazon UK. Thank you for all the work you do.
I agree with The Real Amy. I am not attracted to that man. Also, I must point out most men I know wouldn’t be terribly turned on by that woman. The men I associate with like a women with a little bit of softness…Although maybe we’re the abnormal ones, because we do see WAY too much of this in the media and it wouldn’t be in the media if it didn’t sell. Kinda sad.
Another note, I used to be a fitness competitor and THANK god I got outta there alive. It’s absolutely disgusting what those women (and men) do to themselves, all the while calling it “health”. When infact it’s the complete opposite of health. Health for me doesn’t include a mood disturbance increase of 37 freakn points. And what for? Part of me thinks the people that continue with these compeitions have problems with self acceptance and they think they can fix the problems from the outside.
What is Vitamin T? Urbandictionary says Tennents lager (a beer), tequila, TCH, truth, or any food beginning with a t.
Testosterone. Steroids.
Wait .. powerlifters too? I thought those guys ate tons of food, and obviously have to keep their strength up.
Probably a matter of steroid abuse than anything else.
Definitely. The BBing / powerlifting closets are filled with skeletons of athletes who got sick from the side effects of steroids.
If you look at the old-time “strongmen” most of them were robust and healthy into old age…provided they didn’t overtrain themselves into the ground (like Sandow…but he did recover). I think this is because they ate a LOT, lifted heavy things, and didn’t really worry about whether their abs showed or not.
When dbol hit the Olympic and power lifting scenes in the 60s, people didn’t have a clue what the side effects would be. They just took it because everyone else was taking it and getting stronger. A lot of those guys got sick or died early a couple decades later.
Anyhow, this article has a good message that needs to get out. I’m looking forward to the follow up.
see, as a person recovering from distorted body image ideals (anorexia 11-23 on and off) i unfortunately can not deny i find that woman’s body ‘perfect’ for what I want my body to look like- the abs! the arms! the legs! but, i have a distorted ideal…. and actually, when i see nigella lawson or kim kardashian’s figure and i think WOW nice body! I also appreciate curvy figures on women- i think hayden panettiere looks pretty great too, but if i saw images of those body builder type women all the time the ex-anorexic in me would be addicted to trying to get that type of body… its a hard balance to strike, and i think you are right, it is very odd how we are becoming more and more attracted to ‘ideals’ that ultimately might not run alongside the bail premise of human evolution- fertility!
I am not attracted to her look either. I am afraid that if I entered that, I might get churned up by the cogs and never come out.
ha-ha
basic not bail
So what’s at the heart of this? Sure, it is propagated by the Image industry, but why this image? It occurs that in a period of fluid identity, in which male and female identity are no longer as codified as they once were, there has been a reaction in favor of fixed gender identities to the point of caricature (as in the cosmetic look of strength among men and the skinny, weak woman).
How many times on Facebook and elsewhere have I come across men who have all of these rules about HOW REAL MEN BEHAVE TOWARDS WOMEN. For example, real men don’t talk about their feelings with women because they might fall into “the friend zone”. Then there are all of these formulaic Pick-up rules. The paradoxical thing is by following such codified rules, a man is pandering to the opposite sex. He’s giving up his own identity.
Truly Real Men come in 3 billion different varieties, not in caricatures based upon a character in a B movie. Same goes for Real Women
I think you hit the nail on the head. In “Killing Us Softly,” Jean Kilbourne covers advertising from the 1970’s to the present and in her most recent lecture, says that it’s actually getting much worse regarding body image and objectification. Magazines have actually started retouching photos of runway models to ADD weight to them, because they are so thin now! Body image has a lot to do with gender and control. If it’s not corsets squeezing your waist into impossible shapes such that they cause organ failure or bullet bras causing you breast & back pain, it’s gotta be promoting diets and exercise as methods of torture.
The documentary is here for anyone who’s interested: http://documentarylovers.net/killing-us-softly-4-advertising-women/
I mean, how many “fashionable” fads have been about restricting movements and rednering women weak? Foot binding, corsets, crinolines, high heels, discouraging weightlifting…
Justine, thanks for the link. I will check that out. Yes, it is about gender and control. No doubt about it. However, perhaps even deeper (or at least as deep as gender and control) it is about a postmodern crisis of identity. People are just lost about how to act. They are afraid of the burden to create their identity (and I am not arguing that our identities are completely malleable…I have a tad of the “essentialist” in me). It’s a flight backward toward tradition, not JUST to protect, say, male privilege, but to reify and protect a stable sense of self. It’s reactionary as hell, but at the same time who does not succumb, in some measure, to the temptation and who can completely blame those who succumb completely?
Though, thinking upon it, I would argue that gender and identity crises as possible “causes” are really inseparable, as the binary of male/female for genders and the behaviours prescribed to them are about restrictive, binary identities.
I think that since Western society is largely heterosexist and cissexist, there is a lot of fear involved when it comes to creating one’s own identity if you do not fit into expected binaries and orientations. And, if one does happen to fit into those binaries, you have been socialized to “enforce” it as breaking away from those binaries signifies a loss of power and risk of being stigmatized.
Whoops, that comment got a bit repetitive. Hehe, I should edit more…
No, it’s not about “gender control”, that’s a load o’ bollox.
For the body builders it’s a fairly insular community of men who are competing to out do each other. They receive little or no feedback outside their community about their activities, and frankly being mostly young men don’t *care* about the risks. This his what young men do. Go to youtube and search on “Stunt Fail” and see page after page of mostly young men doing things that have a LOT more immediate and potentially fatal failure modes than taking a little steroid. I suspect that most women who are body builders have a slightly healthier form of anorexia–it’s a control issue (I’m not sure it’s not a control issue with men).
In the women’s fashion/runway model thing, well, go look and find out how many straight males are at the upper levels of those in areas. They are picking “beauty” based on *their* ideals, and picking women who are all the same size and shape.
Ok, Justine, I have looked at the documentary. Thank you very much. I agree with what she says. My only critical observation is that she looks EXCLUSIVELY at body image as a form of objectification.
She is right that men’s bodies are not objectified to the extent that females are. Men are objectified according to their economic status. I am now an engineer and so have middle-class status. However, I remember a time when I was quite poor, as a student and a period between undergrad and grad school. Men get humiliated when they are not feeding the machine. Beyond the issue of not being able to enjoy certain pleasures due to poverty, men are humiliated, figured as less than men, when they find themselves in that situation. It’s another form of objectification: you are only valuable if you have a certain amount of wealth; you are reduced to your bank account.
I am just bringing this up….Obviously she can’t put everything into a 40 minute speech.
Others have phrased this idea as: women are sex objects, men are success objects.
if you’re a ‘loser’ male, your dating/mating options are similarly constrained as if you’re an ‘unsexy’ lady.
“women are sex objects, men are success objects.”
I am wondering, if this is something we should fight against – from a biological standpoint this is how it’s always been. I think it’s troubling that men are now becoming sex objects, and that the beauty expectations for women are so unrealistic. But I don’t think it’s a good idea to mess with things that are ingrained in our biological hard-wiring – such as men being very visual and sexual and looking to women to fulfill those needs, and women looking to men to provide security and protection. Yeah, I know some people will jump on me for saying this, but millenia of history back me up. I got a lot more relaxed about and successful in dating when I understood and accepted these biological ideas.
The problem is that everybody does not actually fit into these roles naturally. And when society coerces people into behaving in a way that is unnatural for them it just leads to unhappiness and conflict.
The message should be that you are OK the way you are, whether or not you conform to gender norms. And you should look for a partner who complements *you* and who *you* find attractive. People who are inclined toward traditional gender roles shouldn’t be afraid or ashamed of it, and neither should those who don’t. The issue is coercion and false identity.
Yup, totally agree. I am inclined toward traditional gender roles, which I had fought for most of my life with a militantly feminist mother. Giving in answered so many questions.
But for those who don’t just be yourself, totally right.
I agree with this Uncephalized, but I think that we often culturally look down on traditional gender roles, and that effect is not to be overlooked.
Women who prefer to be submissive are seen as weak, and dudes who prefer to be dominant are seen as noxious cavemen.
I’m all for individual autonomy in gender expression. I just think the case may be overstated how frequently men’s feminine expressions are being tamped down, and women’s masculine expressions are. In my mind, nature has a role; it’s not all a socially constructed power play.
Oh I completely agree that our society today seems to have a problem with traditional-leaning people. It’s like we recognized the problem of coerced compliance and then overreacted by trying to enforce noncompliance through shaming instead. But of course it was the shaming and discrimination that were the problems in the first place, not the gender roles themselves!
I totally agree with what you write here Uncephalized. It’s about letting people be themselves. It’s not about being compelled to play a traditional role OR reacting AGAINST that role. One needs to act our of his/her center.
Here’s an interesting story. I used to date the Italian novelist Marina Minghelli (she’s not well known in this country but you can find a couple of her novels translated). Anyway, she is sort of pegged as a “feminist” novelist (even though she eschews that designation). When she came to San Francisco she was invited to visit a number of feminist circles. She told me that every time she went to one of these events, the women spent a huge amount of time bashing men.
Marina told me something like this, “Look, these women are still focused on men, every bit as much as the stereotypical, passive housewife. Instead of finding their center and acting from it, what do they do? They sit around and talk about men.”
I was very impressed by that statement.
Reminds me of an activist friend who learned of this idea of ‘the third space.’ The first space is one of oppression, the second is one of resistance to the oppression, and the third is out of self-directed agency, with the oppressive force no longer setting the terms of the engagement. I liked that idea.
I agree re: the identity crisis. Obviously, this comes out in different ways depending on the targeted gender (women are supposed to be sex objects/not really exist as people, men are supposed to be male power fantasies). Both are very damaging.
I actually see this as part of a movement to feminize men (and agree it is an outcome of the fluid gender identity we seem to be experiencing). Now we are subjecting men to the same body pressure as women, in many ways pressuring them to be less “manly” (i.e., states that imply low testosterone, worry about their looks).
There’s a push for women to be men’s equals in all aspects of life. I don’t want to be with a man who acts like a woman. I want a man, and to me that implies strength in ways that women don’t usually have (and I think I have feminine strengths that men don’t usually have). I would rather celebrate the very real gender differences, and not try to force us to be the same. I don’t think these sorts of images help in this regard.
I can’t agree that that this is an outcome of fluid gender identity- actually, it’s an outcome of overly restrictive, traditional gender identities that leave little room for emotional or creative expression.
What does it mean for a man to act like a woman? In what ways are men strong that women aren’t?
Whoops, I thought you were replying to my comment. My bad.
Obviously I have terrible eyesight and can’t see who’s replying to who. Haha.
No worries, Justine. But to answer your question, men are strong in a lot of ways women aren’t. Physically, upper-body (and total) strength for one. Also because of their hormones, they are more aggressive and pushy by nature. Women tend to have strengths in different ways. Both are good, but they are different.
“But to answer your question, men are strong in a lot of ways women aren’t. Physically, upper-body (and total) strength for one. Also because of their hormones, they are more aggressive and pushy by nature. Women tend to have strengths in different ways. Both are good, but they are different.”***
***on average, all else equal, your results may vary.
Not to pick on you in particular TRA. I just find that this kind of talk often gets turned into an excuse to look down on people who are not gender-normative, by idiots. Of whom you are clearly not one. :-)
“Physically, upper-body (and total) strength for one. Also because of their hormones, they are more aggressive and pushy by nature. ”
These are not consistently true, not by a long shot. Hormone patterns vary wildly between people of both genders and throughout one’s life.
Most gender differences are what we chose to see as acceptable in each gender, or socialize into that gender. It doesn’t mean that any particular trait from either gender is good/bad, but assuming that those traits occur naturally in genders is scientifically unsubstantiated.
Justine, as far as I can tell, no one here is saying gender norms apply always and everywhere to each individual without fail. In fact, we’ve all made efforts to agree that individual variance exists and is relevant.
But that doesn’t change patterns on the aggregate.
I used to adopt a hard social constructionist point of view, minimizing or eliminating the role of innate differences. I no longer agree with it, and while I also don’t think biology is destiny, I do think our behaviors and expression are less arbitrary and culturally conditioned than I once did.
There seems to be a tendency to assume that the number of people who fall outside gender norms both physically and mentally are a minority when they are quite a substantial portion of the population. These people do exist and to pretend they don’t is harmful.
Neither do we as a culture have to pretend that masculine men and feminine women are aberrant, which also happens and is also harmful.
Yes, exactly. As a woman, I feel tons of pressure to suppress my femininity (except in the sexual sense, which is hyper-pressured, beyond the normal feminine urges) and be aggressive in the business world, etc. I think society ends up sending a lot of confusing messages, and now we’re in a state where women feel they have to do everything men do and suppress their natural urges.
I wouldn’t doubt that the hormone disruptors in our environment could play some role as well. Or if you’ve ever read about Pottenger’s cat experiment, as the generations became more malnourished, the male cats became more docile and female cats became unnaturally aggressive. Maybe that is happening in larger numbers now.
Either way, I don’t think you can discount the fact that throughout history men and women have characteristically maintained certain roles and characteristics (and women have been in charge in maternalistic societies, but still the gender roles have been similar).
Acknowledging people who fall outside gender norms is not the same as saying masculine men and feminine women are abberrant.
I love this conversation. This is a subject I consider often. I wonder though, if men and women really are all that different. No doubt we are to a degree. I think our sexuality informs so much of our approach to the world whether we’re conscious of it or not, and heterosexual men and women are certainly seeking different things, on a strictly biological level. Men are giving, women receiving, etc.
That being said, I have an issue with this idea of the “feminization of men.” I think women made traditionally male roles less special and gender specific. Lots of men are pissed off about that. I’ve met a few of them personally. It’s easy to pick one of these guys out, just prove them wrong or beat them at a race or something.
Women took issue with their gender role because it was narrow, limiting and not too prestigious. It didn’t jive with us because we knew we were capable of so much more. So much to the chagrin of the aforementioned men, we proved we could do most of the stuff that they do. And we really can. Sure, as a rule men are going to win the javelin throw and just as a matter of ingrained unfairness maybe bring home a couple more bucks. Big deal. With the aid of modern comforts and instruction manuals, we can manage just fine on our own. So if we can do so many of these things that were once gender specific to men, why would it be hard to believe that men could have a natural tendency to bear “feminine” traits? Perhaps they just covered them up for a millenia because it was unattractive to women who needed a big,strong protector. But now that we don’t necessarily need that we can better value people who are empathetic, nurturing, sensitive- you know, womanly stuff. But it is the stuff of lasting relationships that go beyond the utilitarian needs women used to meet through their partners. I think the blurring of gender roles is great because it frees us from having to play a certain part in order to pass on our genes. Personally, I hate to clean, love to cook, am really aggressive in arguments, not so much in other respects. I have no doubt I can do whatever the fuck I want with my life, as a woman, and I like guys who do girly things like talk about their feelings and cook me dinner. Isn’t it wonderful to live in a time where you truly have the freedom to be authentic to yourself? I think that, more so than anything, is why we’re seeing so much divergence from traditional roles nowadays. Because we finally can.
Julia, I love this entire comment! This is exactly what I was thinking, except stated much more eloquently :)
For sure, “health” standard of beauty have greatly impacted the way I see myself.
On a side note: Today, the NYT has an article about kids eating fewer calories than previous decades.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/21/us/children-in-us-are-eating-fewer-calories-study-finds.html?_r=0
My husband once said something that stuck with me- the best way to get a 6 pack is malnutrition! He gleaned this from his military days where he worked out with young men who overextended themselves to get a very particular “look.”
Interesting article. I’ve been reading everything on the the website lately and along with a couple of extremely stressful periods in my life believe this is what’s given me a lowered metabolism. I never competed but definitely had my fair share of “cutting for summer” diets. Throw in stopping proscar cold after a decade and some paleo and the result has been nothing but craptastic.
I’ve been reading eat for heat and diet recovery 2 and my temps are going up. I have a ways to go but it’s trending the right way.
One thing I’m not clear about is frequent urination and night time urination. I wake up 4 or 5 times a night to go pee. Ive cut my fluids down but I still go to the bathroom all the time. Any thoughts or is this something thy just takes time as temps increase?
I feel fine for the most part . I’m a little tired here an there but it’s tolerable. I’d kill for a good nights sleep though.
The nighttime urination should improve as you continue. I set as a goal for everyone I work with to be able to sleep through the night without waking, or without peeing. Most are able to pull that off no problem. Virtually everyone sees at least substantial improvement. I bet in 2 weeks you’re peeing only a couple times per night and in a month or two none at all.
Thanks Matt!
My fluid intake is low but I do get thirsty . I’m just having a small drink with my meals. I feel like I could easily put away a quart of milk with each meal. I’ll stay the course and get back to you in couple of weeks.
Where can I read about more I formation regarding this nighttime urination deal and it’s causes? The mainstream seems to believe its either too much salt or prostate issues.
Remember it’s more of a ratio thing – the proportion of calories, carbs, and salt to fluids. I drink a lot. But I eat a lot. So the result is good. I don’t pee at night. Just barely have to even pee when I wakeup in the morning. And I even slug a bunch of water and OJ mixed together before bed. I did do a post a long time ago on nocturia, polyuria, etc. Not much other reading out there for it though, that I’ve found. I also did a video called “It’s not your prostate” or something like that.
Yeah, once your body adapts to regular meals that have all three macronutrients in satisfying amounts (by eating stuff that appeals to you instead of what you’ve consciously decided you need, ala restriction and “healthy” eating, like me) along with salt and a bit of fluid, the peeing gets way better. The cause is complex (metabolically) but not particularly scary or life-altering unless you have some other kind of serious illness, so I’d try not to worry about it and see where you’re at in a few weeks.
Taking billberry dramatically improved my frequent urination/interstitial cystitis.
B – your temps went up from just reading Eat for Heat and DR2? Wow, Matt is good!!
I spent a year in bed suffering from adrenal fatigue/my life sucked so hard made me ill/paleo. I lost 40 pounds without hoping to, and all the exercise I got was maybe tri-weekly trips to the mail box. It was horrible. Finally I felt a little better and one day I went out and raked grass clippings and pushed a wheel barrow around and picked some corn. I posted a picture of myself holding said corn on Facebook because I was so proud of my reentry into the world of the living, and people are all asking me if I had been working out- look at all that arm definition! Ha! That was the first day I had done anything close to a “work out” in almost a year. But I had a super flat stomach and defined arms. Too bad I had the sex drive of a 90 year old, I guess I looked pretty hot.
Also, I’ve always heard that if body builders stop working out, “all the muscle turns to fat.” I guess it would more likely just be that they’ve successfully slowed their metabolism down so much that they become lard asses the second the stop hitting the gym. Right?
I just read Julia’s comments. I forgot to mention my sex drive sucks. That’s only happened Over the last year or so . I’ve played around with some peat stuff but all the milk and OJ left me peeing 24/7 although I felt less stressed.
Is this not what people say as an excuse for why they are not lean.
There is a huge difference between being 8-10% body fat with muscle mass e.g. looking good and absolutely shredding yourself to sub 4-5% for competition.
With such a tiny % of people engaging in competitive muscle building competitions this article seems to give vindication to the majority people who are not even close to say 10%.
High level competitive sport is a major stress on the body. Hence why so many use performance enhancing drugs.
This seems akin to comparing the benefits of a gentle 15 minute aerobic activity to the after effects of doing an iron man..
The big question of course is, if someone at 25% bodyfat used similar methods to get down to 15% (same leap in loss of body fat), would the negative metabolic consequences be the same. All the research I’ve come across suggests that the stress is similar, it’s just that sub 5% body fat is an additional stress. In other words, over 90% of people who diet and exercise to lose body fat will experience it similarly to a bodybuilder cutting for competition, and regain body fat later on due to biological forces that are far too powerful for most to overcome.
Yes , I think the negative consequences are the same,
or similar,
when it comes to cutting from 15% to 5% or 25% to 15%.
At least I have experienced it to be so.
Dieting is a stress whatever!
And yes- the biological forces of regain are massive.
I am more disciplined and able to stick to a regime than virtually anyone I know.
But I have still not been able to overcome the biological force of my body towards regaining fat.
But the reason body builders use such extreme measures is because they have to force the body to go to unnaturally low fat levels. Being 25% body fat, then going to 15% is hardly breaking the threshold of being unnaturally low and does not therefore need a crazy method to get down there.
Though the fact people do this is of course the product of our diet industry mentality.
Problems also comes from using one guy as the case study, he was 14.5% body fat, that is overweight for anyone who is looking for that ripped look. Then cutting 10% fat off in a short amount of time is just stupid.
It would be interesting to see a larger data field and/or comparisons to guys who dont have to drop 10% for competition (most natural body builders do not walk around at 14.5% day in day, much more 7-10% thresholds.
Great post.
Other comments have said it, but it bears repeating: The ‘ideal’ for men as propagated in mass media [either ultra-low body fat, or ultra-muscled, or both] is not the most attractive to the majority of women [everyone has their fetishes, of course].
It’s more in the range of the Sean Connery in “Dr. No” (or Brando in “Waterfront” or Michaelangelo’s “David” or George Clooney in anything) to Russell Crowe in “Gladiator.” Barely visible abs; no veined-out arms; lean without being cut up; athletic-looking without appearing vain.
I blame the perception that all-or-most women like the super-shredded or super-jacked look on the prevalence of 15-25 year-old men using steroids and other PEDs, and overtraining. Getting that look “naturally” is virtually impossible unless you are a genetic 1-percenter and/or massively OCD.
Yes, yes, yes! (And ooh, I would take any of those men – yummmmm!)
I agree with that: I do not find male models to be attractive. Not even a little bit. I’m not into a guy with a pot belly but a few extra pounds are not a turn off.
agreed 100%– I accidentally put my reply to this at the bottom. But a naturally athletic body is so much more attractive. The above picture is a huge turn-off. Most women want enough strength to know that a man can help you move boxes, open a jar, carry your sleeping child to bed, and– perhaps in romance novel fantasy –beat up bad guys. The bodybuilders don’t seem very capable of real world feats of strength and they certainly don’t appear agile or particularly energetic. On a sexual attraction level, I would prefer a pot-belly, but could fix a leaky faucet. Much more manly.
My man doesn’t work out now, but did so very much many years ago, plus worked hard in physically demanding jobs as a teenager/young adult. He’s very visibly muscular, but also carries a gut AND has many physical ailments, like an old prizefighter fighter or retired pro football player. He’s incredibly masculine and sexy, though, because he’s not vain and self-absorbed like a teenage girl. He’s got a smart, strong, sexy BRAIN to go with his body. And he can fix the sink. ;)
Rick’s right, Michelangelo’s David (my god), or those old film stars are the ideal! manly but not beefed.
a builder or plumber type. :o
I wonder what effect all of the extra “supplements” have on their metabolism when they’re prepping for a contest? And by supplements I mean testosterone, T3, Clenbuterol, insulin, hCG, GH, Arimidex… and fish oil.
Thank you for the post Matt. Also, for posting a pic of Wlfred Brimley…reminds me of a scene from Family Guy when they showed Wilfred doing a commercial and he says: “I’m Wilfred Brimley!! I have Diabetes and I beat my wife!! What?!! My wife has been dead for two years..who the hell have I been beating!!?” LOL!!
I think an important part of the story of that the presumed and maybe once accurate relationship between outward appearance and optimal internal health has been broken. As our bodies get disheveled in various ways with modern life, we can still find ways to demonstrate the outward signs without the internal order that we imagine goes along with it.
Alisha above mentions pot bellies as not too attractive- that may be a sign of estrogen dominance, or other things. And that is not an anabolic hormonal state. Testosterone or progesterone play a more anabolic role, and eating the food helps on those fronts. More testosterone does tend to mean enhanced body composition for guys over time- less visceral fat, enhanced muscle tone and strength, etc. But it’s also possible to get that body composition by actually tanking T levels, as above. So the issue in my mind isn’t that these ideals are completely arbitrary and wrong. It’s that we’ve found ways to short-circuit them, and achieve the appearance of health without the substance. And because we’re dealing with fairly novel circumstances, our mostly hard-wired cues for attraction can’t tell the difference between a pseudo healthy but actually infertile physical status and the real deal, healthy, robustly fertile one.
Right – like there are three ways to have great abs. Have naturally high testosterone levels. Take tons of the right type of steroids. Or starvation while weight training. The three routes don’t equal the same health and vitality.
There is a website/blog out there that promotes the “Perfect Male Body”. They have contests on a regular basis, you know, the transformation kind. I give them credit in that likely are all drug free (based on height/weight numbers), but no doubt that they are following the last route that mention Matt. Some talk 1200-1500 calorie daily intakes!! Imagine how many of them are going to blow up one day.
Even when I was in my 20’s (45 now), my friends and I who did work out a certain amount knew that perfect 6 pack abs were not in the works for us. Fit, yeah, reasonably flat stomach, yes, even a bit extra (like myself) was going to be it. And we were fine with that.
I see this kind of thing a lot in the gay community. You see gay men who refer to their body fat level (or lack thereof). There’s actually a documentary about this called The Adonis Factor. I’ve seen some really scary guys at the gym who have just blown their bodies to bits trying to achieve super low body fat.
What about martin berkhans? He claims to maintain 5.5% BF all year round…
or scott abel
Scott Abel doesn’t even suggest to his clients that maintaining low body fat levels year round is healthy or even possible without negative recourse. Berkhan is one of the few people on planet earth claiming to live at very low body fat levels year-round without any negative problems, and I think he’s done fairly well but I still remain somewhat suspicious about the truthfulness in all of that. The people who do have very low body fat levels year-round are rare exceptions, not a good representation of the general public. I think most who follow either Berkhan’s or Abel’s methods for fat loss will both experience severe negative metabolic recourse. I certainly do.
He hasnt been that lean for very long. Give it some more years, sooner or later the consequences of such a strict, extremely high protein diet will have to get paid for.
And yes, he is an arrogant bastard. A very good lookng one (which he is probably aware of too, being a former model and all).
Still, that lean female is my ideal as well. She yas a great body. Never met a man sharing my ideal though. But im messed up in my head anyway ^_^
He’s maintained 6% bf for at least five years now and his diet isn’t strict at all, mainly whole foods though with some macronutrient cycling (high carb- low fat on training days and low carb-high fat on off days i believe). Have you actually seen his site? He does cheesecake feasts every 6-8 weeks. He also drinks pretty regularly.
There’s nothing extraordinary about his body that would indicate roiding. Impressive? Yes. But the amount of muscle mass he has isn’t unusual altho he is near his genetic max.
He’s just found an eating and training pattern to maintain his physique.
Yes i have seen his site. Ive also had him as a coach. 6 Years is not that long if you think about it.. people who screw up their systems, like most females, hav usually been dieting/starvning way longer than that, also there are individual differences. Maybe hell stick it out, however i believe further down the road downsides will show up.
I know the Berkhan army will jump all over my H?agen-Dazs-loving ass for this one, but I’m convinced he runs low levels of some type of exogenous substance to stay excessively lean. In fact, I would not be surprised if most of these online gurus ‘use’ because of the pressure to constantly reflect the aesthetic promises they promote.
…AND Martin has built himself quite the reputation of being overly arrogant and unkind. Some forums even claimed a mental breakdown, or something similar. Maybe he should just give IF (which I consider to be an eating disorder in and of itself) a break and start his mornings off with a highly palatable/quickly digested carbohydrate source. Hell, maybe if he follows Se?or Stone’s ‘Diet Recovery 2’ to a tee, Martin’s moods might stabilize and his dogmatic approach might loosen.
“A hungry man is an angry man”
clearance bass too
I can’t wait for your follow-up article Matt coz not long ago I looked up some famous body-builders from the nineties expecting to see them obese or miserable and they looked really good and healthy and smiling. But maybe that aint gonna last for long.
Most of them are still on steriods! And many of the bodybuilders from the Arnold era don’t look so great at all, with the exception of maybe Lou.
But it’s true, some still look freaking incredible, like Lee Labrada. These guys are, remember, some really elite human specimens though.
Matt,
I agree with your comment that bodybuilders from Arnold’s era are not looking good, but what about the bodybuilders just prior to Arnold? If I remember correctly, when they reached the age that Arnold is at now, they pretty much looked better and healthier than the “Arnies”, guys like Vince Gironda and Steve Reeves for example.
Oh, and I loved the comment “is that her real head?”!! So funny. I think it looks fake coz you can’t work out your face muscles and get a six pack on your cheeks, so her face looks normal in comparison with such an ab-normal looking body. I think they color and oil their bodies for comps as well.
I checked and my husband does not find the girl in the article attractive. At all.
None of the guys at the construction site like those kinds of girls. (I work construction with my Dad. Guys are somewhat transparent in that way.)
so matt, do you think general ‘busy-ness’ i.e. walking around, getting about, engaging in outside world/life plus weight lifting are the most appropriate forms of exercise? i believe exercise has immensely addictive qualities and i can imagine competing towards a goal of a certain body composition would be highly addictive, what about the people that CAN sustain this type of lifestyle though? I’m just saying….i use exercise to stay sane..!! and i think when you see after-effects it reinforces the enjoyable experience… have you ever passed your thoughts on classes like spinning? and gym classes? my trainer thinks they are useless and we often have discussions about their helpfulness..!!
Generally being in good physical condition, however you do it, is a virtue. But everyone has a different threshhold for exertion. And that threshold shouldn’t be exceeded to achieve fitness – not that fitness is always the result of that anyway, as strength and fitness often decline even with high volume training schedules if the threshold for recuperation has been exceeded.
I’ll speak for many women (not all) and say that the bodybuilder is not a particularly attractive physique. In college (a long time ago, before I gave much thought to this stuff), my roommate was dating a bodybuilder (pumped but not uber) and he was trying to chase her dog that had gotten out and he was so winded. I remember thinking what a complete turn- off that was. All those muscles, but he couldn’t chase down a cocker spaniel 30 feet. I would say for most women, a boxer, swimmer, wrestler (real), track &field type have much more of an ideal physique. Their muscles look useful and their bodies still seem capable of athleticism. The body builders (and I would include Scott Abel in this, though he seems like a super nice guy) just don’t look particularly fit or healthy to me.
As a man, I see where you are coming from Susan and I have heard the same thing as well. Even though this bodybuilder your roommate was dating was not that big, he still lacked athleticism. I would say that it is an age thing as well with females. I would say, under age 30, the percentage of women turned off by uber size (or freakishly lean muscularity for that matter) is say 90%. Once you start talking 35+, it rises to 98%. As a 40+ male, who has plenty of muscle but some “flesh” over those muscles, I get a decent share of attention. I am a decent rock climber, love hiking, etc and that is what women will find attractive. Oh, and there is not a jar lid yet that I have met that I cannot open…:)
;-) Yes– opening jars + hiking/ rock climbing = good. Bench pressing 500 lbs– that’s totally for other dudes.
Yeah, I love muscle, personally. I just like some flesh over it. Russell Crowe in gladiator would actually be fine by me (excellent, really) because he had fleshiness, too. I don’t need that much muscle, but it’s still nice. It’s when the body fat gets super low or someone is spending all hours in the gym and dieting that I get turned off. Sounds like you probably have an awesome combo. At the end of the day, women are attracted to one thing more than anything else in the world: CONFIDENCE. (And nothing says low-confidence like starving yourself)
@The Real Amy, why thank you! My current significant other is always touching my shoulders and arms, I find it funny actually, for whatever reason. And she is 43, whatever that might mean in the context of all this.
But in the end, I am prouder of the fact I speak 3 languages fluently, am educated, am on a solid financial ground, etc. Stuff I have worked for and is far more important. Wish I had a dollar or two for everytime I have heard the word “confidence” from a woman and its importance.
In response to a comment by Matt, I mentioned a site that promotes “The Perfect Male Body.” Sadly I have seen even guys in my age range “competing” in the transformation contests. I just don’t get it. Starving yourself for what, exactly??
That is so sad.
In reply to Julia Gumm: I’d say the people whose muscles “turn to fat” – that, at least from my observation, is more often observed in guys who were heavy but lean during high school/college and got heavy and fat later in life: They lifted weights every day, lead a relatively active lifestyle andhad lots of beer and wings and together with the high testosterone levels of youth – lots of muscle mass and not so much fat. Later in life, they didn’t lift just as often, still ate as if they did, hormone level decreased and they ended up gaining a lot of fat…
I only wonder why former top models usually don’t end up fat once they end their professional carrier (or even while still modelling) as they usually follow the most metabolism destroying diet/lifestyle one can imagine…yet I do not know of former top models who ended up fat…Is it because they are willing to restrict calorie intake to unimagenable low levels once their regulat very low calorie diet doesn’t work anymore?
Most fashion models are naturally slim. Many of their diets listed in magazines are often bs. Hence they keep their weight, no need to diet down to begin with. There are always exceptions, tyra banks did gain some after her days of glory.
We all know what happens to people who restrict their eating for too long: hunger always win and with that, extra weight. Not all slim people are dieting or unhealthy.
You know that homosexuals, disabled people, romani people and “antisocials” have also been killed in concentration camps?
I’m confused by all the comments here about the people in the photos not being “attractive”. Bodybuilders (men & women) are not usually competing to be more attractive to the opposite sex.; it seems to be more about demonstrating status (i.e. look what I can do with my body and imagine the self control it took to get this look). In most cases, people who attain this kind of look already know that mainstream ideals (especially for women) are not the same as bodybuilding ideals.
At one time I would have loved to look like the woman in the photo there, but I know that look is not sustainable for most people and I’ve abandoned that goal, although I’m not really happy with the alternative either.
I’ve been reading through this site for about a day but I’m still trying to understand what it is that Matt is promoting. From what I can tell, it’s generalised health and improved metabolism through eating and sleeping more/as much as you want?!
So why don’t you post the before and after photos of THAT concept. Show photos of ultra lean people who have dieted down to their low metabolism danger zone and then afterward, when they are fatter but healthier and have “boosted their metabolism”. The only problem is that I suspect most viewers of photos such as those would rather look like the “before” photo. I’m not sure if it’s because of media conditioning (that’s the look we’ve been taught to believe is attractive) or if it’s something else. It troubles me that I can’t answer this question myself.
If I posted photos before and after from my eating disorder, everyone would think the after looks better. I went from bony with my ribs showing to a “fleshy” and curvier thin. In the middle, during healing, I looked puffy and had a small belly.
Or look at Guiliana Rancic before becoming emaciated and after, and see which you’d rather look like. Too thin is not necessarily as attractive as a lot of people idealize it to be.
” Bodybuilders (men & women) are not usually competing to be more attractive to the opposite sex.; it seems to be more about demonstrating status (i.e. look what I can do with my body and imagine the self control it took to get this look).” – this is pretty much the same mindset as an anorexic person, which is interesting, and says a lot about the similarities between the two.
Well, personally, I would appreciate the opportunity to decide which I like. So why DON’T you post your Before and After pictures?
By the way, I am thinking of starting a Facebook group called, Forum-For-NYC-Women-Who-Wear-Size-0-Dresses-Named-Amy-Who-Admire-Sally-Fallon. Would you join?
Gotta admire your persistence, Thomas. :-)
Cameron, I am not sure Amy admires my persistence. I have tried to be good. I haven’t asked for a photo in over a month. However, when I hear adjectives like “fleshy” and “curvier”, I have to ask. If you don’t knock, nobody will answer the door. Anyway, after this request, I will stop…permanently.
Lol, you are nothing if not persistent, Thomas! When I saw this I actually took out my camera to take a photo and put you out of your misery :-) but I realized I have nowhere to post it. I don’t know how to create a profile photo, and I prefer to maintain my anonymity online (as much as we can in this facebook era).
Amy, you can still put me out of my misery and protect your anonymity. Post it on TinyPic:
http://www.tinypic.com/
and then post a link to the photo.
Thanks for being a good sport about this. I know I am obnoxious.
If you remember, this is where the woman who showed her before and after pics (in another thread up here) posted her pictures.
Now put me out of my misery PLEASE!
Ok, Thomas here you go: http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=yi9h2&s=6
http://tinypic.com/r/73e2dl/6
The pics actually don’t do my curves justice, to be honest, they look more pronounced in real life, but I couldn’t twist my body around enough to take the photo from a 100% side angle. (Ignore the green – I was trying to preserve total anonymity, lol, I’m paranoid about online privacy)
But you can see that I still have a butt, thighs, belly curves out a bit and is not 100% flat. I don’t exercise one bit minus walking, but still look toned enough. As a caveat, I do NOT think this is what people “should” look like after recovery because this is my natural weight, I was this size in college eating “whatever”, pre-ED, and my family is all thin. But I do think people can expect to get back the weight they had pre-dieting, and maintain a pretty good body comp.
Wow. You look fine. Even better than I had hoped. Love those curves. I could go ski-jumping off of that.
Nicely done, especially with walking being your only exercise. Imagine if you squatted & deadlifted regularly. BOOTAY! :)
Speaking of bootays, everyone, watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzLrYQJG420
Brings a tear to my eyes
Upvote.
Haha thank you boys! This was my ego boost for the day :-) What can I say, I credit pasta, cheese and butter
No way the barbell fits over this bootay!
I can totally understand being careful with posting stuff on the net, but would you be willing to mail me the pics too as I really need encouragement and I actually have a couple of questions too,if you don’t mind?:)
You can ask Matt/Rob for my emailadress.
Oh yes amy,wold u plz share those pics?maybe thatll be some strength 4me.
Or you could maybe mail them ?
I want to see the “after the after picture” pictures. Know what I mean? All those sites showing 3-6 month transformation before & after pictures don’t care what happens to the person 6 months after the “after” picture is taken.
Matt’s message is about REAL, metabolic, internal, systemic health. Not the outward illusion of health, but the real thing.
Back in my IF days, I looked really lean and healthy, but my metabolism wasn’t healthy. My body was cold, stressed and weak, but I was lean.
Now my body is warm, calm, big, fat and strong. Yes, fat. I deal with it. :-)
Janna– you have a good point. In the same sense that people complain about marathoners looking frail– well, they’re not trying to win Mr. Universe– in order to be at the top of the field, you need to be small. Many top athletes are unbalanced– they’re goal is be the best at their sport. Still, bodybuilding and low body fat appears to be what everyone is into these days as if it’s some sexual ideal and sign of health. I don’t think it is either. I would liken the extremes of bodybuilding to be more akin to anorexia than other athletes. Self-control, self- discipline knowing that the mainstream doesn’t find it very attractive but still congratulatory within it’s circles when you managed to only eat 500 calories every day for a week and now all of your ribs are showing. Pro-ana sites fetishize that look, I guess– but I’m not really sure it’s about sex appeal. It’s something else that I don’t understand.
As for photos of fat people– agreed that most people don’t find pudgy people particularly attractive. There are some people, though, that prefer fat women– I would say it’s in the same percentages as women who like the uber-muscle bodybuilder look. I can honestly say I would prefer a man like john goodman or jack black to a 3% bf guy any day of the week.
Hey Susan. Interesting post. I think it might be more correct to say that it’s not EXCLUSIVELY about sex appeal, because I do think that is part of it. I think a lot of women find a muscular body attractive. Historically it has been an indicator of health. I have huge problems with the Evolutionary Psychologists (like Buss) but there is no doubt something to their argument that such a body type reflects health and therefore, on some level, indicates a man’s ability to be a provider (even if that’s less the case in our day and time). The problems, as Rob pointed out, is that in its exaggerated form, bodybuilding, it is an empty cue. It is a simulacrum of health that it can actually unhealthy (when taken to extremes as many competitive bodybuilders do).
What are some other things it has to do with?
1)Power and control.
2) Andy Warhol famously stated, “?The reason I’m painting this way is that I want to be a machine.” I think a lot of people like being objects, machines. Objects don’t feel and can’t get hurt.
3) Fear. If you want to read a thoughtful book written by an ex-bodybuilder on this subject, read the book, “Muscle: Confessions of an Unlikely Bodybuilder”, by Samuel Fussell. In it he comes to the conclusion that his decision to take up bodybuilding was entirely based upon fear. Here’s the link: http://www.amazon.com/Muscle-Confessions-Bodybuilder-Samuel-Fussell/dp/0380717638/ref=cm_cr-mr-title
Agreed– Thomas. Just to be clear– I do think muscles and muscular bodies are attractive. I just don’t think the Mr. Universe dehydrated, uber-low bodyfat appearance is attractive and I don’t think a lot of women do, either. I think that is more what you refer to as man as machine. Just like anorexia, I think it’s a lot to do about control. I’ll take look at that book. I’ve got sons who I want to protect from distorted bodyimage just as one would a daughter.
What you should understand though is that the fact that a high percentage of people dont find pudgy, whatever that is, attractive is a recent cultural phenomena and is conditioned. What is considered attractive has been different in different cultures and times. In the past hour glass figured women, who would be considered plump by todays standards were considered very attractive. I dont know if the painter Rueben’s fat lady paintings reflected his unusual taste in women or the ideals of the age and culture he was in or if he was just testing his technique to see if he could realistically portray a fat lady. That would be interesting to find out. In ancient cultures being plump was considered desirable because it was an advantage for survivall and fertility.
I met a former bodybuilder a couple years ago, who was about 35 years past his prime, but in his heyday he had won a major competition. He was massive and not particularly fat, he just had a huge body mass for his height. In terms of muscle mass, I think he is the largest man I have every seen in person. He was suffering from mobility problems when I saw him, and died shortly thereafter of a heart attack. I came away questioning how one could manage such a large frame in old age and maintain mobility without the vigorous training that had created the physique in the first place. I probably misinterpreted the problem though.
As a note, in the art scene that i traverse, whenever there is a body builder at a party it’s a sign social standing. The host will point out that person and introduce them if they won competitions. The social cache is huge, both to that person and the host. Some of the younger ones even strike a pose if there is a dull moment. Kind of awesome. I can see why a person, who doesn’t fit into the conventional definition of beauty would be drawn to this.
The woman in the pic is 2 extreme for me,but physiques such as GoKaleo’s look very appealing to me.
2day i spoke to a boy at the gym training to be in the navy seals,schedule is 3xweek with weigths/body movement and also lots of running on alternate days,he also mentioned doing kickboxing. He said he. basically eats whatever no special regimen.hes not the veins popping out look,but hes by all means not fat either,so i wonder if thats the healthy lean achievement,dont know about his metabolism.he certainly must have quite some energy?
I am naturally slim and muscular. I have never done IF as just the thought of missing a meal is enough to make me suffer. I don’t like pushing myself with exercise, but I do enjoy walking and it only gets strenuous when I explore the bush in the mountains. I do not do this for exercise, but to see what is on the other side. I miss swimming in salt water (I will not go near a chlorine pool), but I do enjoy icy mountains streams. (I know, I know!)
When I was travelling, I did get very skinny, but I didn’t realise it at the time. Also, my arm muscles have always been well defined and I do not do anything but play a musical instrument for hours almost every day. Losing weight made me look like I had muscles. When I came back into town and was looking at models for a haircut, I thought that they looked ugly which I had not noticed until I had lost a lot of weight.
At this time, I began to have problems with sleep and urinating at night, which I did not think at the time related to the weight loss.
I don’t understand all of these comments from the women stating they don’t find men with Tom Venuto’s body attractive. I never looked like him and have been obese most of my life, so I can tell ya the number of women who find guys like me attractive is: ZERO! If given a choice between looking like Venuto or myself, I would pick Venuto anyday…at least I know a large number of women will fund me attractive. Enough said!!
BTW, I also find the female fitness girl in the pic above to be quite attractive :)
Mostly the ladies are saying they like a muscular man who still has some flesh on him rather than the 5% fat look, which is freakish. Obviously obesity, which is the other extreme on the spectrum, isn’t generally considered attractive either.
And I’ll agree to disagree with you on the fitness girl. She looks totally gross to me.
Well, Venuto only looked like that for a couple weeks at most. The rest of the time he looks more like a normal dude.
As for finding the fitness girl attractive, you probably have the same problem that I do… finding way too many women attractive! I feel like my standards used to be higher when my metabolism was lower. Now I want to pounce on just about anything with a pulse, haha.
LMFAO!!! Thanks Matt…Yes, I think that is my problem too. I used to think females with muscles were not so attractive, but now I find myself checking out Fitness girls as much as the types I always liked.
Ah! But what to do for us poor gay men who are not concerned with fertility. Of course we then are attracted to those studs who look infertile but have great 6 abs! What a dilemma, should I still keep my baby fat then? :-)
This article is really relevant right now, with IF and other seemingly harmless fat loss protocols like slow carb surging in popularity. I remember when I thought that, in an ideal state of health, one would automatically maintain the ideal physique (leangains/bulletproof exec), and how much of a mindfuck it was when I started realizing that it just doesn’t work that way. What’s also kind of crazy is how quickly my values shifted from aesthetics to overall wellness. I think other people’s values can shift too. All they need is to be involved in a community like this website, that fully supports the new paradigm.
As a side note, my dad just started an IF regimen, despite me warning him, and now he doesn’t sleep through the night, and has a sinus infection for the first time in years. The consequences are real folks.
Yeah, I used to think the same thing. When I started reading these blogs, my favorites at first (besides Matt Stone) was Dave Asprey (of above mentioned Bulletproof Exec), Danny Roddy and Anthony Colpo. Now I just want to read Stone’s, Roddy’s and Andrew Kim’s blogs :)
I asked Colpo to do a guest post. I hope that’ll be okay with you JonO.
Speaking of waking up at night, why does this happen? It seems like you said because of adrenaline peaking. Is that because of malfunctioning adrenals from stress? I am rrarfing and keeping warm hands and feet and good temps, good increased metabolism signs, except i wake up between 2 and 4 each night. Is this something that is often much more stubborn to improve? I usually go back to sleep pretty quick and usually sleep about 7 hours and feel rested. I am 45 and my hormones are winding down toward menopause. Do you think Matt that much of the discomforts that women experience at menopause could be from the lowered metabolism resulting from dieting and trying to be superwomen? I wonder if i will be able to sleep through the night ant time soon since i just got started on not dieting, seeing as Im getting close to meno.
I liken it to a tug of war between metabolism and stress. When metabolism is really low, the stress hormones peak much higher in the night and sleep is difficult and of very low quality/depth. You might wake up 4 times, and getting back to sleep may be impossible because of anxiety/panic, heart palpitations, and other signs of a huge adrenaline surge. As metabolism gets higher this slowly fades with less and less severity, finally culminating in the ability to sleep all night long with no wakeups.
HA!! Yes, please have Colpo do a guest post Matt!!! Don’t get me wrong, I love Colpo’s blog-writing style (only second to yours Matt), the only reason why I left him off my second group of names is because he stll has the calories in/out dogma, but I respect the fact that he recognizes carbs as being helpful to get lean…and talk about 6 paks, check out the pics of Colpo AFTER he went High-Carb :)
Matt, I do think when in an ideal state of health you maintain an ideal physique naturally, but I think a lot of those physiques advertised as “ideal” are really not. Look at someone who has been in naturally great health his whole life like John Stamos – he is aging like a champ, and that must be good health. He’s had a great body his whole life, but nothing cut up like Venuto. But here are all these saying Venuto is actually not ideal, and I think most women would go nuts over John Stamos (even now, pushing 50). And for women, you have women starving themselves to look like 12 year-old boys when really most men want a woman who looks curvy (like Kate Upton, Salma Hayek, etc.). It’s like our perceptions of ideal get warped for some reason as we head down the starvation trail.
Matt, I love the fact that you are not scared to rock the boat. You make many interesting points and it’s refreshing to hear someone criticize the “ideal” that most people are only wishing they could achieve. I’ve heard many of these top specimens say how crappy and unhealthy they felt as they were preparing for a competition.
Most lean/well built and very energetic&usually very happy&positive outgoing
people I know,eating huge amounts of whatever without thinking about it or scaredness of becoming fat(actually they never have been fat) are the people who are(sometimes suffer),as they say themselves, people with ADHD.
I wonder if these people have been born blessed with an already overly high metabolism? (….and probably thyroid)
Flipped&quickly read through some pages of Michael Phelp’s autobiography at the library today and read that he was born ADHD while his sister,also swimmer, battled eating disorderQuite odd,that his sister suffers from the opposite of him. I’m not into watching sports,but I kinda like to read that book bc it seems interesting.
What I find kinda scary in a way,is that I find more&more fitnessmagazines,mostly there are only male-oriented ones, such as Men’sHealth promoting adopting a Paleo Diet…..and ofcourse the fats that are emphasized are : Olive oil,nuts,Fatty Fish(O3), some eggs. Even through all dietary shit,I’ve never been 100% convinced that grains are evil as there seem to be so many lean and healthy people/cultures having grains in their diet. However I also noticed they don’t eat grains and sometimes carbs at every meal or everyday. I think WAPF does have some good points in preparing grains properly,maybe that’s the way to proper grain- and in general carbconsumption again?
@Matt in DR2 you have the example of the woman who lost weigth and you write about what to expect(which is quite daunting) so I was wondering if you have an or possibly more examples of people who needed to recover from being underweigth and did this succesfully(without these daunting things or major fatgain) while Lifting weigths a la your protocol or someone else’s?……bc I’d really like to see succes stories about that,instead of all the reversed weigthloss stories.(preferrably women)
What do the ladies think of this physique? Does this guy have enough fat yet?
http://i45.tinypic.com/rana89.jpg
legs too big
lose the weight lifting looks
go for something more naturally athletic
Oh come on :P
I just gained 15 pounds and have to gain 20 more to get back where I was at age 17, the body-comp my body is ”used to”. Even the hospital told me this would be benificial because I went through puberty with a lot more muscle mass. And I enjoy lifting weights, not so for team sports, I also enjoy my cycling. But thanks for the comment. My seemingly healthiest state was when I had this bodyfat and was 20 pounds heavier, I had the most energy and best libido back then.
Legs are fine with me. More fat needed on upper body (arms, shoulders, chest and stomach).
Well, I’m doing 3500-3700 kcal a day, just raised it by 300, so I just may gain some of that fat, but I hope it’s slowly and will bring a lot of muscle along. I was losing fat on 3000, so to be honest, I am leaner than in that picture now(single digit BF%, some minor veins across abs.
The thing is, I could not care less whether I have a sixpack, all I ever want is a defined face, which some people maintain at a much higher bodyfat level. So I hope the distibution will be like that. And Matt: I don’t think you check your facebook account, but I wanted to let you know I doubled my testosterone values in a couple of months WHILE losing bodyfat(intake 3000-3200). I am now below my perceived optimal BF%, higher than when you did the coldmember post, but my face is slimmer, because it is not puffy from the surge of stress that 1800 kcal brought to it.
And yeah, I still enjoy this body-comp manipulation stuff, just trying to do it safely, like in the past. Also, now that my health is better, it feels more like a hobby than an obsession, no posing 20 times a day(but still too much :P)
Now:
http://www.uploadhouse.com/viewfile.php?id=17360182
Maybe too lean for optimal health(but remember, I lowered a lot of medication and doubled my T levels going from 13% to this)
15 pounds heavier than in the coldmember post, but almost as lean again, this sport is really about piling the calories on.
And I still think you can be quite lean without having to have ill effects. Isn’t Colpo a nice example, what will his guest post be about?
I think you are still very lean in this pic, and could gain more bodyfat for sure.
No worries about the legs..
Legs need to be much bigger, like they used to be, but I am very lucky with my leg genetics. And yes, I am lean AGAIN. After first talking to matt last year, I ate 5000-10000 kcal a day and drank a lot of booze. I then gained a lot of fat, upon switching to 3000-3200 kcal and adding in some cardio, I got this lean, leaner than I even want to be, so now I am increasing calorie intake gradually, if I don’t gain any fat on 35000/3700, I will add 100 kcal and check again and keep adding untill I gain a little fat. 10% bodyfat and 30 pounds heavier would be ideal for me. I think much below 10% may be sub-optimal for hormonal health. But I do get morning wood these days, even with veins on my abs(guessing I am around 8% now).
Oh, and adding in some concentrated fructose in the form of candy and soda is definately helping. When I am slightly hypoglycemic, I eat candy, when I am cold, I eat banana-pancakes. And the combination of feeling a lot healthier(mainly more relaxed) and picking up my choiceless-awareness meditation again has much reduced my smoking and drinking.
I’m glad you’ve come a long way. I think there is also a lot to be said, though, for working on being happy with what you’ve got. If you took all this energy you put into body comp, and instead put it into other productive things in your life, what could it do for you? And what are you trying to avoid in your striving for some perfect ideal?
Trying to avoid? I think you are taking it a bit too far. I eat the foods I love to eat most, and think it makes perfect sense to track my macros. Also I really enjoy lifting weights and getting more muscular might really help my health. I do 2-3 one-hour lifting sessions a week and take my mother along to motivate her to do some lifting too, which she says makes her feel much better in daily life. Tracking my macros takes me 5-10 minutes a day. So I truly don’t see any evil here, I don’t give it priority over any other activities, and if my macro’s go out of whack, like yesterday(felt like eating 4300, yes…I smoked a bit of weed, Dutch after all), that’s fine too. I know plenty of people who live, and enjoy this lifestyle.
OK, had sounded like maybe you were putting a lot of energy into it. I am a fan of doing whatever makes you happy.
Well, since you asked, and I’m assuming you want honest answers, I also think you need more fat on you. I’ve never been a fan of the ultra lean muscular body. Muscles that are “softened” by a layer of fat is much more attractive to me. Maybe it’s equivalent to guys who say that they don’t like it when women are just skin and bones. I don’t like it when men are just skin and muscles. A layer of fat makes everyone look nicer.
Have you seen the article Matt did on me a couple of months ago? I now only realize how damn lean I was back then, almost stage-lean. At the time I knew I was lean, intelectually, but never really believed it…
I did see that. You’ve come a long way. What do you want for yourself? I mean, you asked for our opinion, but what’s your opinion on how you look? Do you want to lay down more fat, or are you happy with this more defined type of look?
@Emma: I’d like my old physique back, which Matt didn’t post in the article, he only posted a picture of me when I had gained a bit too much fat after bulking on 5000 plus kcal for a year(my fattest state ever, nowhere near what I have been most of the time), my first year of training, or 8 months, and me after all my extreme diets and hormonal problems. I did not cut from that before picture to those after pictures, making it a bit misleading. I also never used my fruitarian diet or my zero carb diet as a deliberate strategy for getting lean, I just thought it was healthy at the time. I hope Matt runs the next article, if he makes one, through me first, because the last two weren’t 100% accurate.
I used to be as defined as now and 20 pounds heavier, or at 15% and 40 pounds heavier, and have good hormonal health(as far as I could tell). I don’t care much for my body, as long as there is some muscle on there(a bit of fat is fine too). I just want a defined face, strength, endurance, and health. I’d be fine with it staying the way it is, but my health keeps improving with me gaining muscle so far, I think my body has a tendency to get back to where it was when I grew up.
So, the physique you had growing up, was like the first picture he posted, only a bit leaner? My guess would be that you look best at your normal state, which it sounds like it’s trying to get back to according to what you said.
No, it was much more muscular, and leaner, most of the time. It was like my most recent picture, plus 20 pounds of mostly muscle. The biggest I have been was 40 pounds heavier than now, and more musclular than that, and a bit fatter, but not as fat as in that picture, that was my fattest ever, I was only like that for a few months. But the heaviest and most muscular shape was not practical, I had a wound in between my legs because they were so big that they constantly rubbed each other when I was walking. Also, I was not in shape on the bike or at running back then. My current body plus 20 pound of muscle is my optimum I think. I should also work on getting more flexible, I’m only doing strength and endurance now. And some coordination, I’m thinking of picking up badminton. :P
If I get back to my own PC, I’ll see if I can find a picture, if I remember(on a laptop now).
Here you go, I think these were around my heaviest period(40 pounds more than now):
http://i54.tinypic.com/28hh8k0.jpg
http://i55.tinypic.com/5cwvbs.jpg
http://i55.tinypic.com/2hnx1jb.jpg
Not long after that, I quit and ate random stuff, much, much later I started the fruitarian and zero carb diets, they were not related to my bodybuilding.
I think you look best in these pictures.
Coldmember, Are you off all of the prescribed medication? Until you are no longer hormonally enhanced regulating calorie intake is premature. Also, when you have at least 20 more lbs to gain, why are you limiting your calorie intake?
I still take a low dose of cortisol, which should not influence that(12.5 mg). Off of thyroid hormone, GH and testosterone, which are all in reference range. I have 20 pounds of muscle, bones and organs to gain, not fat, I have even been 40 pounds heavier, but my optimal state is my current bodyfat, or slightly higher, plus 20 pounds. And I woulnd’t say 3500-3700 is restriction, I feel quite full after my meals these days.
I think you will find this article useful, especially the information on gaining fat during recovery: http://www.youreatopia.com/blog/2012/11/23/phases-of-recovery-from-a-restrictive-eating-disorder.html
I have read that before, and more on her site. And I disagree with her on many points.
What do u think made the biggest effects on your testosterone lebels?
Me? As for lowering them: eating nothing but fruit. As for raising them: eating enough carbs, calories and animal fat and protein and llifting weights.
I also want a defined face, i seem to gain a puffy look in my face as soon as i start to bulk, soon as i cut i start to get a lean face
Matt, I rarely reply to posts of this nature but since this was brought to my attention and you’ve taken the liberty of using my photo and put it front and center and called me out by name, I felt a response in order.
Out of all the bodybuilders (or figure/physique athletes) on this planet, why would you pick me to make your point? You couldn’t have picked a more wrong person to highlight as your example. In fact, why not leave the example the guy in the case study?
You bring up some good points about some real issues. I write about such issues myself and I warn clients about them, and few people can appreciate them as much as I can, having been immersed in bodybuilding culture almost 30 years now and seen the light and the dark sides of the sport. After 28 competitions, Ive been retired from competitive bodybuilding for over 7 yearss and 90% of my clients and readers today are not bodybuilders, so I can look back and see it from both sides of the fence.
Muscle dysmorphia is real. Eating disordered behavior in physique sports is real. Metabolic slowdown with extreme calorie restriction + extreme low body fat is real. Problems with the standards society sets/imposes on body image are real.
Where you’ve gone wrong in this post is making value judgements about bodybuilders and figure athletes as people – and in what you’ve implied about me personally. Matt, have we met? do you know anything about me or my motivations? since you haven’t and you don’t, you’re making assumptions and perpetuating stereotypes as much as you are doing good in bringing some real issues to attention.
First, let me get this out of the way since it came up in the comments – I have never taken steroids, hormones, HGH, diuretics, thyroid drugs, clen or any other banned or illegal performance or physique enhancing substances. I am 100% drug free for life. I will compete again and I will welcome a drug test ‘challenge’ any time. Natural bodybuilding is a choice i made for health among many other reasons. most natural bodybuilders who approach the sport intelligently are great role models, great ambassadors and tremendous inspirations to thousands of people who follow them. I know, stereotypes are real time savers, but dont lump all bodybuilders together and dont let the bad apples spoil the bunch of good ones,
There is nothing more important to me than health and this was true even back in my competition days when I was in my 20’s and 30’s. I have never been an advocate of any extreme or dangerous dieting tactics. When I coached people in contest dieting, it was clear that the stricter nature of the precontest diet and intensified training was temporary and for peaking, not something that is done for a prolonged period, and the transition from contest to off seasons was done smoothly. the rest of the year bodybuilding is a truly enjoyable, balanced and healthy lifestyle. If you compare it to other sports, we train less than many other athletes do. Bodybuilding is not so different than many other sports where the athletes push themselves hard to peak for personal bests in competition. This is the nature of competition and sports in general. Competitors push themselves. People who dont like it, don’t compete.
contest prep can be done very intelligently so as to minimize risks as much as possible. There are bad coaches. I realize that. There are also good coaches out there today who understand this and there are competitors who listen. Smart competitors stay leaner in the off season. They diet down from say 9 or 10% not the over 14% of the misguided chap in the recent case study. They take much longer to diet down slowly. smart competitors do not completely eliminate carbs, but rather use them intelligently to refeed and refuel. They do not starve themselves. They are more conservative with caloric deficits and lose weight more slowly. They don’t do more cardio than they have to. They take diet breaks when they need them and do not stay in extreme restriction for long. They live healthy lifestyles and they dont abuse any types of drugs.
I understand some of the points you are making and I agree, but in this post you are not just reporting a case study, you are making value judgements and trying to assume you know my motivations or the motivations of others like me. You’re mistaken on every point. I have never competed to beat the other guy per se. I have always been a bodybuilder to beat my own best. Natural bodybuilding is an incredible path for personal growth as are other endeavors that require similar discipline over a lifetime, like martial arts.
The only time my motivation for bodybuilding was to get girls was when i was young and naive enough to think that muscles were what girls wanted most – when i was a teenager. once i started competing in my 20’s, i could have cared less what women (or anyone else) thought; and I went into it knowing full well that a bodybuilders physique was a turn-off to half the women and a turn on to the other half. Half is plenty, believe me.
I set my own goals and my own standards and encourage others to do the same and pursue what they want not the image that society wants. Ive never done this to please other people, or conform to any societal standard. Quite the opposite – bodybuilding is a subculture – NOT understood or appreciated widely, so if i were seeking to conform to what society deems normal I wouldn’t have done it at all. But I did always hope that my success might inspire some because that alone is a worthy motivation – and not a selfish one.
Most of all, matt, what Im not sure many people understand is is that for people like me, this is not only a path for health and personal development, its a path of passion and joy, not suffering, not deprivation, not social isolation. I loved my years as a competitive bodybuilder. I loved every minute of the training and dieting, even when it got grueling at the very end – and it did – and I knew, with eyes wide open – what the effects were on my body and mood at times.
I also loved my last 8 years as a recreational bodybuilder, living the same lifestyle except for not stepping on stage or doing any serious cutting. And i miss the stage enough that I will be back. better, more balanced, more centered and healthier than ever, after a decade away from it, to prove how healthy it can be.
Again, matt, you bring up some real issues that are going on in the sport that are usually swept under the carpet, and possibly at a more alarming level today than ever before. But perhaps put a little deeper thought into it next time before you name a person, judge a person you dont know personally or so sweepingly condemn and judge a sport that I presume you have never participated in.
Best regards,
Tom Venuto
Hi Tom,
Thanks for your thoughtful response. I wasn’t calling you out in a negative way. Your picture was chosen and your name mentioned because I consider you to be one of the most well-known natural bodybuilding icons. And hundreds of thousands of young men have been inspired by that very photo – used on your sales page for BFFM for years. Any number of other people could have been selected, but I figured that pic, and you, were more recognizable and familiar.
Like I said in the post, I’m just pointing out other sides to the story. Some bobybuilders are healthy and some are not – just like regular people. Any number of motivations can trigger an entry into the sport or the general body composition improvement game. Most just see some pics of some ripped guy (like Tom Platz seeing a pic of Dave Draper on the beach looking ripped with a hot chick on each arm – this pic dictating the direction of his life) and think that life will be a happily-ever-after experience if they attain the same physique, and then embark on a “passionate” journey to disillusionment.
I hope you don’t feel in any way attacked by this post. It was not my intent at all. I was generally discussing the idea of natural bodybuilding to begin with, and you just happen to be an ambassador for the sport.
“and everything to do with a desire to achieve an elite level of awesome dominance over other members of the same sex…… As I have mentioned in the past, I find it quite ironic that we, as a society, are becoming increasingly attracted to infertile people.” You nailed it!! You so nailed it! And it all to me seems the perfect consequence of the post-industrial, post-capitalist, diminished-expectations world — one that’s just waiting for a nuke meltdown but is meanwhile too happy to obsess over the latest fetish so as to ignore reality. Good stuff
“Dominance over the same sex” I agree with that and not only in the form of intimidation but as a way to position themselves as sxually superior and dominant in the case of bodybuilders attracted to the same sex.