By Rob Archangel, 180DegreeHealth.com staff writer
Hey buckaroos- just wanted to give all a heads up that Matt’s got a guest article over at Outsmart Disease, a site hosted by Marina Gutner, PhD and geared toward those with thyroid issues like Hashimoto’s thyroiditis.
Matt’s post is entitled ‘Thyroid Rehab- The Diet and Lifestyle Approach,’ and offers a nice summary of the role of stress hormones and inflammation in suppressing the metabolism and thyroid, and some general guidelines to suppressing that stress response and enhancing the metabolism. Go check it out!
Thanks for the heads-up! Good article. I’m going to work on item 4 in particular, though I eat a lot of salt on foods already, I’ll work on incorporating the rest of it, hope it helps get my temps above 97.2 ‘ish more consistently.
I really liked the thread that followed from the ‘Ray Peat – Thyroid’ article linked to this article. I particularly liked Matt’s take away from his work, that we shouldn’t look to eat what’s natural but rather what is ideal.
On that topic…has anyone here tried supplementing with Ribose? Seems like it might be a nice tool in the fight against hypothryoidism (fundamental component of ATP). I’ve just started trying it. I won’t even bother to report anything until I given it a few weeks though…
Yeah- it’s an important idea, though one people in natural health circles tend to be a little leery of, and for good reason. Having seen the consequences of hubris when it comes to ‘improvements’ on nature (modern hydrogenated oils- better than butter!), many people tend toward natural food as a sort of baseline, to ensure some minimum and valuable standards. But not all human intervention is negative, and we can figure out better than natural options in many cases.
That was exactly my perspective on natural foods until this year…now, my attention is turned to learning if we have really ‘figured out better than natural options’.
I’m wondering if Ribose is one of them. It actually is ‘natural’ of course, but supplementing with it can provide the body more than an ‘all natural’ diet would. I’m thinking it should help anyone whose body is under stress – like those with hypothyroid conditions – and not do much at all otherwise.
I have tried ribose. Gave me stomach problems, so I had to abort the experiment.
GERD damn it I can’t describe how beautiful all of this information is and how beautiful that article was at summarizing how to increase metabolism. For the hell of it, today I had…an eternal energy (one of those lil five hour kinda thingies) which I try not to use stuff like that when I don’t need it, but man if you don’t sleep enough and you know you’re about to do some serious work, they work amazingly for me, granted I get good rest on other days and eat super good. In fact I want to say that energy stuff works better now on me than before, and it’s cool, cuz I eat like a “bad ass” and I have much more resilience =) Now, with a person like my buddy who is run down like most people, never enough sleep shitty food etc…It doesn’t do much for him. 2 quarts of gatorade made from the mix (at work) More gatorade, the G series, 2 20oz bottles (helped someone move) 2 chipotle burritos (extra white rice, no beans, above average looking single serving of chicken, corn, cheese, sour cream, medium salsa) with some of their carbonated raspberry stuff in the glass bottle. I gotta admit I was pretty stinkin full after that, which I used to be able to eat more than that for sure without feeling that full. A tall boy of beer at one point, now it’s late and I didn’t want to cook or anything, so 2 Nacho Bell Grande’s and a burrito supreme sufficed. Bought a second supreme but my body tells me, screw you dude, we’re full and supremes actually taste like shit, but the Nachos I can never go wrong, besides the beans, kinda gettin repulsive. Oh and I forgot, midday after the chipotle I took some vitamin E and a big spoonful of LouAnne Coconut oil. I let it melt in my mouth and just swigged my raspberry stuff to wash it down, goes down like nothin when u do it that way. I didn’t use coconut oil for a while, but I’m gettin back into using it and taking spoonfuls here and there to see what it does. I think my waist is a smidge smaller from using the E and coconut oil more. I gain love handles quick, so my waist can fluctuate quick. I believe I would be much more effective if I got adequate sleep everyday like I should, but unfortunately that’s not how most peoples lives work. When I tell people that if I ate a little more and slept more I’d be less chubby they look at me like I’m freaking nuts. People have been askin me if I work out and stuff and I just basically do my job, but now that I am much more muscular I’m gettin antsy to start doin a lil sum sum and speed up my body composition process. I have other motivations as well, and no it doesn’t have to do with my fantasizing about looking like Bane, like Dutchie pictures me as. LOL or does it? Besides his weird smooth stomach? Yes I was checking him out HAHAHA. My only complaint is that my right hand sprained wrist is my best hand now. I’m left handed. I sprained my left somehow, definitely something at work, and it swelled up on me last saturday scared the shit out of me. If I can’t lift heavy stuff I’ll lose my job. Can’t turn my left plam towards me, and it somewhat hurts with my right. I use braces whenever I need but it doesn’t always prevent me from twisting too far. It started to hurt again today after I helped a buddy move and I thought it was going to swell up again (hurt to even make a fist on sat) I gotta single swing frame at work and I’m tryin to slowly build up my lats etc.. with that. Can only do pull ups, the harder kind, but I’m using my legs for some help cuz I mean lets get real, I weigh a shit ton and if my back isn’t developed I couldn’t do many if at all and probably wouldn’t be a good idea for my wrists anyhow. I could NEVER do chin ups with my wrists, I’ll try to baby them as much as possible and continue to wear braces even when nothing hurts like a good friend recommended and maybe one day in a billion years I’ll be able to do a stinkin chin up without feeling like my hands are gonna tear off. I should be sleeping right now to destress myself, cuz I’ve hardly gotten the “9 hours” this week…I’ll do everything in my power to sleep in because I know that’s what is best. And I skipped out on going to bars with friends too, I’d rather go to bed and build testosterone and destress and have energy most of the time these days. Before all of this, shiiiit, a bunch of brewskies count me in.
@Bob Dean If you don’t like the Bane-mental-picture I can easily substitute it for another one you like more. Like Thor , a Spartan/Gladiator ?….you name it! ;)
LOL….when I read Bob Dean Metal Dude I first thought ‘is he into metalmusic or band?” then I thought ‘oh no,it’s regarding his job”;) (Though it’s still not entirely clear what fits your workdescription…..do you also have to work in (night)shifts?and I guess inside a fabric or also outside? I’m currently looking into jobs that are usually considered ‘male jobs’ as most of them are more physical,though not all such as ICT bussiness,truckdriver etc. But ofcourse then comes the problem that as a small/tiny female with no experience you don’t get hired,bc they want ‘strong/big men”. :( )
Well well I work and most places around here they say “equal opportunity employer” so my boss tells me they’ve had chicks in the past though they didn’t last very long no offense. I do all sorts of things and Bane is fine I like his creepy voice but I don’t want to be that big at all, he’s all swollen lookin and bloated haha. I clean aluminum rims, clean radiators, lift tons of random stuff customers bring in, sometimes small amounts, sometimes really heavy stuff, I process cars. I take out the donut, the mercury switch, the oil, the refridgerant, the gas tank, the catalytic converter, the battery, the anti-freeze, I syphon the gas with my bare hands and buckets and a pump machine called a gas buggy. Older customers and women come in with all sorts of random steel stuff and I help with that. I shovel out the crane tracks. When it’s winter that shit is hard as a rock, and when it’s not too dry, and not too wet, it’s really thick stuff too. I make pop can bales (bails?) pull siding, gutters, I sweep I clean I am miscellaneous man. Lots of stuff. Some days I’m just pulling refrigerant from appliances all day, some days I’m workin my ass off, some days I do things the hard way on purpose, its all sorts of nuts =)
You seem like such a nice relaxed guy,your girlfriend must be really lucky:) were you paleo before too? Im getting more&more curious as to what you look likezespecially in the various stages of your life,too bad you dont have a site or something:)
You mentioned sleep&testosterone(i guess you meant growth hormone?as sleep is where this is supposed to happen?) Thats something i really still have a hard time dealing with,what causes me to have a good uninterrupted sleep and wake rested&energetic.
hehe I hope to one day have some serious information about myself to help people out. But I am far from done experimenting on myself before I all Tim Ferris on you mofos. Are you trying to figure out if I’m single? haha I’m workin a lil chicky atm, it’s really complicated. She’s a sweatheart but her Dad is a mean Correctional Officer who hated me before he met me. But I won’t get into that…I’m not good at documenting and taking pictures like I said, yet, that is.
LOL,I’m not as I figured from another post you have a girlfriend:) Just a general sincere comment.
Hey Bob – I just wanted to make a quick suggestion for your wrist when it flares up. The homeopathic remedy Arnica Montana is magical for overuse injuries. I have tendonitis, and while it is mostly under control, when I do something like play the piano too much (which is where the injury originated actually – I’m a musician), my arms and hands will start to ache and get pretty sore. It used to take days to go away and no amount of stretching or anything would help. Anyway, Arnica halts the inflammation within seconds (for me – homeopathics are highly individual, so it depends on the person how quickly/efficiently it works, but Arnica Montana is a standard overuse-injury remedy), and it doesn’t come back. It’s also good for things like sprains, or just sore muscles from working too hard. Anyway – any health food store should carry it in their homeopathy section, and many pharmacies as well (homeopathics are actually regulated by the FDA, so they’re not as weird as people think they are). It’s inexpensive, and it sounds like it could be a real life saver for you. Just thought I’d mention it in case you’re interested!
thank you very much I’ll keep that in mind next time I stop down to get some c20 and kombucha, it’s been ages!
I’ve successfully used arnica. I have a good bit of respect for homeopathy, and know people who have used it to good effect. It seemed to help my dog a couple years ago, too, which is what got me interested in it to begin with.
Homepathy has been working for me, too. I’ve been doing a single remedy for the whole body (classical homeopathy) rather than addressing acute issues one by one, but it’s had amazing effects like re-normalizing my period, eliminating brain fog, reducing insomnia, etc. I don’t understand why it works, but it does.
What kinds of homeopathy or supplement helped you? Or what do you mean by homeopathy? (as I don’t know if you mean the same as I mean with homeopathy?)
Sometimes people confuse ‘homeopathic medicine’ for ‘holistic medicine;’ they are not the same. Homeopathy distinguishes itself from allopathic medicine in that it uses substances that cause a similar constellation of symptoms in a healthy person to relieve those same symptoms in an ill person. So arnica, mentioned above, might cause bruising or inflammation or slight pain in a healthy person. Prepared homeopathically, it would relieve those symptoms.
Allopathic medicine uses substances that combat a particular symptom to help heal. So if you have a fever, you take something that *re*duces fever, rather than a homeopathic preparation of something that *in*duces fever.
A good free introductory book is here: http://www.drdooley.net/Book.pdf
It’s very individual, so the remedy that has been helping me most likely would not help you. You would need a remedy that fits your symptoms. Homeopathy is basically founded on a “like cures like” principle. Sounds like it is crazy, but it actually works for a lot of people, if done right, and can fix some acute conditions instantly (chronic conditions take longer to resolve). I personally saw a kidney infection disappear overnight. This website has a lot of information http://www.nationalcenterforhomeopathy.org/content/what-is-homeopathy
My one caution is, if you decide to pursue it, be careful with which practitioner you go to because, like with all medical professions, there is a range of skill level and there are a few quacks.
Btw,is there anyone familiar with the Ultramimd Solution Program?….seems like the allowed foods are basically whole30 paleo style,or am i wrong?concluding on what to cut put.
I feel like I’m doing really well with getting my temps up, and feeling better over the past 6 months. The biggest thing is letting go and not being worried about eating as much. I had such bad orthoexia, it was consuming my life! Awful. Anyway, I’ve had issues with pimples/acne over the past few years. A month or so ago, it seemed to be clearing up, but now it’s coming back with a vengeance. I now have a few zits, and a bunch of small pimples on my cheeks and forehead, as well as my chest.
Do any of you have any ideas as to what is causing this, or recommendations on how to get rid of it?
Have you tried the usual stuff to deal with this, like increasing zinc and B5 (pantothenic acid)? These apparently work for some people. I hesitate to advise supplements, but you could get the zinc from eating tinned oysters, which are relatively cheap.
Thank you, Thomas :)
Often the body tries to get accumulated waste out of the body by all means..one is the skin.
If you don’t get enough omega3 the skinoil is more waxy and isn’t flowing underhindered from the pores onto the skin.
Omega3 makes the earwax/skin oil more liquidy, so it flushes through the pores.
Think the metaphor of pumping cement or pumping water..cement gets clogged if something gets wrong and the pump needs to work harder.
The ration from omega 6 to omega3 should be 5:1, better 2:1.
Getting more omega3 is like mixing more water into the cement..it flows faster.
This may result first into more oily skin until the body realises that the oil flows easier and produces less.
Powdered healing clay is a good way to take away excess oil, suck up bacterias from the skin and when you massage the claypaste over the skin it also acts as a nice peeling to open up clogged pores.
The surface of healing clay is very absorbant and binds also bacterias who cause acne(infected pimples)
If you don’t have problems with yeast I would recommend 30gramms of brewer yeast(tablets) because the minerals and vitamin content works wonder for clear skin.
Normally yeast contains high ammounts of zinc, selen, b-vitamins, folic acid and biotin that are sold as beauty stuff, isolated and expensive.
In a natural food they work much better.
Most people get more than enough zinc, but the skin also needs more selenium and b-vitamins when you have pimples. And Selen is often too low in common foods.
Tea tree oil is killing bacterias, not everyone can stand or use it.
Maybe a steam treatment works for you, opening up the pores and helps to let the oil flow more easily.
Dried herbs in a bowl, boiling water over it and catching the steam with a towel over your head so the hot steam opens up the pores.
Also putting essential oils dropwise into the hot water may help, but careful, they can irritate the eyes. Just using herbal teas like chamomilla is safest.
Another supplement that might be very useful in thryoid rehab is tyrosine. It’s one of the 20 amino acids in protein, but it’s only one that servers as the precursor for T3 and T4 (at least according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thyroid ). Of course it mentions iodine as well.
I’m trying tyrosine supplementation, it’s safe.
Tyrosine is also the precursor to the catecholamines… so I wonder what is Matt’s opinion on this?
I personally think I do well with some tyrosine, but I have assumed it is the increase in dopamine that helps.
Thanks for the factoid, I’m still learning.
My view is that the body will preferentially use nutrients (tyrosine) to synthesize compounds it needs. So, if somebody is on a ‘thryoid recovery’ plan, when the body senses it can safely raise T3/T4 levels, then I would think it would use dietary tyrosine to do so (as opposed to raising adrenaline levels that aren’t being ‘called for’).
Just speculating of course…
Makes sense to me, unless one pathway is compromised for some reason. For example maybe the precursor itself is not low, but the enzyme that converts it into the next step is screwed up somehow. I’m not sure. In my case, I take thyroid hormone to restore natural levels, so am I shuttling any extra tyrosine into Dopamine instead?
don’t forget Selenium in your thyroid rehab tool kit too. The enzyme that converts T4 to T3 uses Selenium. I typically get an extra kick from Selenium after a few days and then it goes away, so I save it for occasions when I can really use the extra energy and I don’t take it all the time.
“In my case, I take thyroid hormone to restore natural levels, so am I shuttling any extra tyrosine into Dopamine instead?” I see your point.
Thanks for the selenium tip, I will definitely be getting some. I imagine you’re working with a doctor on the thyroid hormone, who would know better than I about this stuff. But before you started taking it, did you try supplementing with pregnenolone? Its over the counter.
What type of selenium supplement do you use? The ‘multi’ I use only has 20% RDA, so I want to bump it up.
How much do you take when you take it?
I don’t remember the brand (i’m out and need to get more.) I think it selenomethionine form. I take 100 or 200 ug… 200 can make me feel really speedy so usually 100.
How about adding natural foods with high selene content like brazil nuts, brewers yeast, coconut flesh, wheat germs, cashew nuts and tea. Matcha is best because you drink the whole ground up leaves. But normal green and black tea also contains much selen.
One brazil nut of 5grams is filling your RDA up to 200%
I tried ribose, it was (as I read somewhere) ‘jet fuel’ – for a few weeks, and then it wasn’t. Just stopped working. I found it again a few years later, tried it again, still not working. Don’t know why.
I tried tyrosine in a pill with some other stuff like coleus, on the recommendation of my homeopath (who does herbals too) and it seemed to do nothing for a while but after the 2 month course I can tentatively say I think it did help. I’m feeling a bit better. I am thinking of continuing it.
Melissa U – I’ve never had bad skin till I RRARFed and then it was like teenage acne, nasty cystic red things for a couple of months, then it went. All gone. So after my experience I’d say don’t stress, it’ll pass. (Maybe this is only true if you don’t have a history of skin problems though? I don’t know.)
One last bit of personal feedback on an idea that I got from comments on this blog and which could maybe help somebody else too – though I’m really over restrictive diets and forbidden foods and all that, I have also found it helpful to stop gluten. My reasoning is that reintroducing carbs meant reintroducing gluten which is maybe why I suffered a full year with lots of weight gain, puffiness, muscle weakness and pain, I felt awful. Now that I stopped gluten I feel better, less puffy, less foggy, some weight seems to be going though I’m not looking at a scale. But I’m not being too restrictive either – if it’s hard to avoid I just have it and move on. Life is too short and all that. Seeing as you can easily fill in with rice, potatoes etc. it’s not difficult except socially.
What ‘dosage’ of ribose did you take? Dr Oz (I know, I know) says to take 1-3 supplements a day. I’m lucky so far that 1 seems to work for me.
Tyrosine would ‘have’ to help those on thyroid recovery – as long as they aren’t actually taking thyroid hormone. Then, as Tierney points out, it might get sent to a different pathway.
Selenium, and iodine, are the other key nutrients used in T3/T4 synthesis.
Just remember if you take Tyrosine , you will need to take 5-HTP as well. They sort of go hand in hand. If you use Tyrosine only, you will deplete serotonin. If you use only 5-HTP, you deplete your dopamine. The standard dosage is 100mg 5-HTP, take 1000mg L-Tyrosine (up to 3 times a day is a safe dose). There is some debate on this, but I took 5-HTP by itself and suffered. Taking the tyrosine as well fixed the issue. I took it for thyroid issues/fatigue, brought on by years of emotional stress, drug abuse (the good stuff – you know meth, mdma, LSD etc; and the bad stuff – anti-depressants), typical SAD diet, no sleep etc etc. It’s all part of a lot of effort to give my body a chance. It definitely has helped though.
There is an awesome supplement one of my Drs sells called “NTB2” by Neurogistics. It has phenylalanine, tyrosine, 5-HTP, some other stuff…? it is supposed to balance all your neurotransmitters. It really really really works for me when I have breakthrough depression on my SSRI. I take it for a few days and go back to normal. I have tried so many supplements, herbs, etc etc and this is one I would say definitely works. I usually take half the recommended dose unless I am really bad off. I am hoping eventually when I wean off Lexapro that this supp will be my mainstay, maybe with some extra tyrosine mixed in. Neurogistics makes tyrosine by itself too. Everything I have tried from this brand has been excellent. Their l-theanine feels almost like Xanax, when I have taken many other brands of it that did nothing.
Just popping in to say YO wha’s up bitches?
sorry, I am hooked on Breaking Bad and am forced to say “yo” and “bitch” on a pretty frequent schedule.
me too, BITCH, let’s cook (pancakes)
Yes! Then after we ‘cook’ we can see if Mr. White will let us live. :-)
Hopefully it won’t be ‘rice n’ beans’ bitches
I AM the One Who Knocks!
I have a question that I’m hoping Matt and/or you followers might be able to help me with.
I am basically healthy, mid 40’s, 5′ 6″, weight usually in the 130 – 135 lb range. I don’t exercise regularly but can run a few miles without a problem. A couple months ago my diet shifted toward more carbs and fruit and less protein/fat. I was NOT doing RRARF and in fact was concerned that I actually was not eating that much each day. As a result my weight is in the 140 – 145 lb range, and some of my pants don’t fit. I now have some noticeable fat around my mid section. I was concerned I was eating too many carbs and gaining fat from that, and body going into starvation mode. But I’ve been taking my temp the last couple days and was amazed to find myself in the upper 97 to upper 98 range. When I was taking my temps a couple years ago, I was averaging mid 96 to mid 97. So I’m up over a degree and sometimes in normal range. It’s almost like I got the results of RRARF without doing it. And I still don’t sleep enough, averaging 6.5 – 7 hrs/night.
Does this make any sense? I’m really don’t get why my temp went up when I’ve been more on the food and sleep deprived end of things. I’m glad it has though! But now I would prefer to lose the extra fat as I would like my pants to fit. If I reduce the carbs, do you think I’ll lose the weight but maintain the temp? I was learning about carb cycling and thinking of trying that (alternating low carb 1-3 days, high carb 1-2 days, depending on who you read). I know in the end I’ll just have to experiment on myself. I want to lose the fat while maintaining or even increasing the temp.
Oh and btw, I am just fat in the belly and I have chosen to just do cardio and weights, eat a fuck ton of carbs and move on.
in case anyone was wondering
Here’s a question. I have been doing Diet Recovery for 3 weeks now and am feeling fantastic. Temps are 36.6 in the AM and 37 by mid-afternoon. I’ve been able to stop taking both Armour and Cytomel which I was taking in quite high doses before.
However, I had previously been following the Ray Peat idea of getting most of your carbs from sugar/fruit and had not seen good results. Now that I’m seeing excellent results from eating mostly starchy carbs (oats/corn/potato) I’m being told by the Peaties I know that I must be suffering from an adrenalin/cortisol response which is causing the high temps. This seems bogus to me, but how can one tell the difference?
Those starches have a fair amount of digestible fiber – which gets converted to short-chain fatty acids (SCFAs) in the intestines, or so I’ve read. Your previous diet may have been deficient in them (I can only guess here).
As an experiment, try supplementing with 1-2 tsp’s of coconut oil for a few days, it’s pure SCFA. The point is to see if you’re improvement is due to the carbs or to the SCFAs.
I didn’t follow this: “Peaties I know that I must be suffering from an adrenalin/cortisol response which is causing the high temps. This seems bogus to me, but how can one tell the difference?”
Umm, isn’t coconut oil predominantly Medium Chain fatty acids, which are still good, but just sayin. Maybe they convert to short chain? idk. MCFA’s in dat mothas MILK SON. KETONES FOR DA ALZHEIMERS DOG jk idk shit.. Anyone read that stuff about how they’ve discovered that new type of imaging of the brain to see how the cerebrospinal fluid cleans out our shit like a neuronal lymphatic system. ooooooo =)
Excellent point on coconut oil, I stand corrected…see below.
Didn’t follow the rest, sorry.
See what Tony? I don’t know where you’re talking about. I didn’t correct you to be an ass of course, but people should be steered in the right direction you feel me dawg haha.
Emma, if you are feeling better, why do you care what the Peat cultists say? Did they give any good reason for saying that you in particular must be suffering from an adrenalin/cortisol, or is it just the usual hero-worshippers parroting the High Lama?
Glad that you are off the T3. It’s a godsend for some, I am sure, but it can be very, very nasty stuff for others. Better not to tamper with it, unless absolutely necessary.
“I’m being told by the Peaties I know that I must be suffering from an adrenalin/Cortisol response which is causing the high temps.”
Yup, happened to me, I was on thyroid when I started Diet Recovery, and I ate my way in a fever in less than a month, I got hot sweaty, shaky, terrible insomnia, Obviously I thought I was hyper, (I didn’t have any tests run) and quit the thyroid and maintained my temps, and still do like 4 months later, unfortunately my symptoms escalated into heart palpitations, panic attacks, and svt episodes. When I finally went to the doc, and had tests run all of my thyroid hormone levels where exactly the same as before I started hormone replacement, that is low, but my TSH was elevated a bit more than it had been in the past! Go figure. My cortisol is elevated in the morning and flat-lined low the rest of the day, I’m back on thyroid, which has eliminated the panic attacks and help resolved some of my insomnia most nights, but many of the other symptoms remain, basically I’m a nervous wreak, my doc says these symptoms are adrenaline related. So yeah, this diet could rev up the sympathetic nervous system, but, I felt, feel like crap and you feel fantastic so maybe you healed yourself, I should also point out that I never really got stabilized an thyroid to begin with, always had weird uncomfortable sensations, well because I probably have a lot of other problems, so yeah thyroid hormone hasn’t ever been a magic bullet form me either before or after diet recovery. But I have to admit that its nice to be able to eat ice cream now without guilt since, my life’s pretty much it the toilet it every other way.
Christal, this may or may not be applicable to your situation. When I was doing the Peat protocol and doing T3, I started getting heart palpitations and numbness/tingling in the extremities. When I got rid of the T3, the heart palpitations ceased but the numbness/tingling persisted. This went on long enough that I became concerned (had never experienced the like). What took care of it was taking B100 Complex and some extra B12. It worked almost immediately. I don’t know what the uncomfortable sensations are that you are experiencing, but I thought that maybe I should pass this information on to you.
Peeps,though this isnt #irectly thyroid related i was wondering if some of u succesfully battled funghi? There are so many dietary advices out there that i really dont know what to eat anymore,when/what is actually beneficial bc it seems that whatever i eat that helps ‘A’ also countetacts ‘B’. As you can read i dont handle this shit well….the die-off,constant changing imbalances and all the mental moods it causes,feeding wrong organis+s etc.
Ive been battling all this shit for 2years and there seems to be no ending to it….i dont know what causes what anymore,when somethings die off etc. and im really starting to lose the battle and willpower.
What did you do?what eases die-off etc.
Well….according to this list I must actually feel “glad” to already feel like shit for 2years….
Die-off Symptoms to Expect
bowel sluggishness or diarrhea
reluctance to exercise
anxiety,depression,lethargy and irritability.
What makes you think that your symptoms are related to die-off? There probably is such a thing as Herxheimer’s, die-off, detox symptoms, or whatever, but my experience with the alternative health ZOO is that usually such terms are applied when the practitioner wants to make excuses for his/her inability to treat a problem. In other words, I am a bit skeptical when people start attributing symptoms to die-off or detox.
I totally agree,thats why i go about things nowadays on my own experience and gutfeeling(pun intended). There are more symptoms&signs of funghi/mucus/yeast overgrowth which i all clearly have along with lots of metabolic disregulations, i think all this shit is causing all these mood&emotional shifts bc whenever i do something that helps A more,im simultaneoussly also am doing something detrimental for B. Its such a fine balancing act that i just dont know what to do anymore to feel ‘normal'(as in confident without anxietyattacks all of a sudden or whatever)
Having spent 3 days this week in bed with a killer migraine from ‘detox’ with zero good results, I’m distinctly sceptical myself. Gary Taubes says detox symptoms are due to electrolyte imbalance and can be helped with salty brothy (not in my case). So is it really detox, or just pointless suffering? Has it worked for anyone here?
Tony re ribose I was taking 5g if I remember correctly(might have been less), stirring it into coffee or tea. It’s nice.
Re candida I haven’t had it since high doses of antibiotics (who would have thought?) for chronic rickettsia a couple of years ago. That was after years and years of discomfort and treatments and tons of friendly (but useless!) bacteria. Counter-intuitive for sure, but … it’s gone.
I’m getting more&more convinced that as long as I keep the Candida&critters happy by feeding them regularly,they keep me ‘happy’,wanting&liking exercising hard,doing stuff etc.
My energetic therapist gave me the dietary recommendations as to what not to eat for a while. Basically it comes down to some animalproteine,fat and onlly green veggies. I really want to hang myself at the thought of that/having to gain weight that way(though it’s probably also the candida ‘talking’ bc at the buffetrestaurant I only eat green veggies/salad too….however with a bit of some sugary sauce though thats definitely becoming less each time&less interesting… but still lots of softicecream&whipped cream and Tiramisu without the cake,those are the things “I’m addicted” to)…..and it really makes me want to go down to the buffetrestaurant and eat there everyday out of pure unhappiness regarding it all! (…which would surely lead me into bankruptcy,as I mostly cant afford it now and just like an addict am constantly looking for ways to save money/get money together to go.)
Today I ate strict….and I always end up in this weird kinda mental/emotional calmness state(….which feels too calm for me,dont like that quite either next to the other side of anxiousness.I just want to have zest for life,workout/exercise hard,eat whatever yet naturally not craving wanting to go to eat out and basically eat shit,but its so cosy).
It’s not that I’m completely depressed/lethargic but I have to constantly ‘remind’/stimulate myself to feel happiness,do stuff etc….I also get into this state where I don’t want to live in modern society anymore,go more rural/farmlike,sell my dvd’s&other luxuries.
I really can’t handle this f@cking ‘die-off/dietary’ mess well and it’s becoming harder&harder to stay strict¬ spiral down into other the other extreme over the course of the months/years….
Hey Thomas, good to see you again! :) I don’t really care what ‘they’ say but it’s frustrating to be told that “no, you’re not really doing better – it’s a stress response!” I just wanted to have something to back myself up with.
I’m fairly certain it’s not a stress response, I don’t have a racing heart, palpitations, trouble sleeping or any other markers of high adrenalin/cortisol. I really feel great!
Tony, I’ve eaten daily coconut oil for the past few years, the only change has been the replacing of sugar calories with starch. What I meant by my comment is that in Peat land, sugar is believed to be superior in every way to starch and in fact that starch can be dangerous due to the stress reaction caused by the high insulin release from starchy foods (see http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/glycemia.shtml for some explanation of the party line).
While I agree that starches in isolation can cause a high insulin response, how many of us eat plain boiled starches? I know I don’t – Oatmeal is eaten with honey and cream. Potatoes are eaten with cheese and butter.
Anyway, this is all academic because I’m not going back to avoiding starch. I feel great and have even been able to enjoy some beautiful sourdough, artisan bread that is made in an Abbey near my hometown which I never thought would be possible again. I am sick of dietary dogma in all it’s forms!
Bob Dean pointed out a mistake I made above. The saturated part of cocunut oil is mostly MCFA’s:
And also, it’s the undigestible fiber that converts to SCFA’s in the colon:
But MCFA’s and SCFA’s are both directly absorbed so probably not much difference.
Anyway, given that you take coconut oil I’d say you have your answer – starch helps – for whatever reason. Stick with it!
Hi Emma, yes, it’s a pleasure to “see” you again, too! My suggestion: avoid the Peaties. You’ve gleaned everything to glean from your time with them. Move on! Such behaviors as theirs is typical of diet fascists. If your experience diverges from their theory, well, then they have to bring out the procrustean bed.
Happy to hear you are feeling so well. Enjoy your sourdough bread!
I definitely do better with starches. I eat a lot of it, and very low levels of sugar, and it seems to work well for me. It’s just following what I crave. I think people’s bodies are different and some do better with starch, some with sugar, and my guess is some combination of the two works well for most.
Just to add to the debate of starches/sugar,
I do best on a combo of both.
I can tolerate a lot of sugar though- probably more than most.
But overall, my body does send clear enough signals as to what suits- whether protein, carbs, fat, or sugar carbs vs starchy carbs.
And it is just a matter of tuning in a bit and listening to that over and above dietary dogmas.
Turns out I have a huge candida problem(my own fault,with all my cheating&stuff which I apparently really cant get away with)….and some parasite called Toxocaracanis or something.
There are however so many dietary advices out there regarding Candida as to what to eat,especially what not to eat…..of which I don’t know what to believe anymore. Especially bc I constantly am&need to question myself if ‘my cravings (regarding whole foods)” are a good or a bad thing :(
What is a trustworthy source regarding what foods not to eat?when to start reintroducing?how to get rid off the excessive overgrowth fast and maintain it in the future?
Also there are lots of ‘theories’ as to what causes Candida,besides the obvious dietary ones, regarding IF(one source says its beneficial,the other says it isnt),adrenals,thyroid etc. Anybody any good stuff on that?
Apparently according to my color/naturopath-therapist I keep struggling with imbalanced bloodsugar/pre-diabetes and Candida too (high Cortisol),though I dont seem to really notice. I actually feel my best when Cortisol’s high usually :s (…and still lots of other hormonal imbalances)
There are so many theories(it’s the adrenals/lowthyroid,poor functioning liver/gallbladder,leaky gut)&dietary advice regarding what causes and clears up Candida that are totally contradictory that I just don’t know what to believe and do anymore! (on one side you have the more Paleo/GAPS camp…..and then there’s Pay Peat,Josh Rubin and the likes on the total other side!)
My therapist tested through her color-therapy that I should not eat nuts,dairy,sugar ofcourse and root veggies such as carrot,beets and winter squash,banana,sweet potato/potato/rice (and there’s really not much other fruit that I seem to handle well anyway bc the fructose).Basically everything that turns to sugar and/or what is commonly referred to as mold-feeding in most dietary advices.
So,that basically would leave me with only green (leafy) veggies&proteine&fat though it’s still a mystery to me that she tested positive regarding Honey (which is sugary too). I really don’t know who or what to trust anymore….I just want to Goddamn live,exercise hard at least 4times a week and be able to eat whatever whole foods without all the weird,mostly emotional,side-effects! And in the meanwhile I’m falling even more&more off the wagon hard,doing more damage,bc of frustration?comfort?anxiety?habit?feelings of fun&normalcy?guided by the Candida&Co?….I guess it’s my own stupid fault that the diet I actually need to eat is becoming more narrow daily!…or is it the candida,the bloodsugar imbalance’the leaky gut? the clogged up liver&gallbladder?:s
I don’t have much time but I’ll say that the list of foods you’re suppose to be avoiding sounds insane to me. I think you need a pocket Matt Stone. Have you consulted with him yet? Shit is soundin pretty bogus there chicky.
Ya know,the worst part is that shes probably even right:( bc when i keep strict for at least 3days straight some physical symptoms seem to decrease slowly,for instance constipation yet others increase which all seem to be symptoms of die-off. Also after 2days aproximately i enter this weird kinda emotional state where i dont feel like living inside modern material society anymore and instead and dream about a more rural/farmlike life. The first couple of 2to3days are usually the hardest and i can sometimes feel like this angerball,depressed,anxious but after a while i get into this sort of ‘calmness’/emotional zero-point,where im not exactly depressed/lethargic nor feeling excited/like doing stuff…..its hard to explain,its as if i constantly have to remind/stimulate myself/thoughts that im actually happy/feel like doing stuff etc.:s
On the other hand when im at and eat at the wokbuffet restaurant,i usually feel like doing stuff again,working out hard etc. Yet i also notice(even though i want to ignore it,pretend it isnt true) that it doesnt do me good eventually,not to mention that itsbecoming highly addicting obnoxious habit:(
So,i think theres definitely truth regarding the fact of candida/yeast die-off,keeping them happy and they will keep you ‘happy'(though it really seems to disrupt me emotionally/hormonally? Over the course of days),obesity and the likes….
I feel really trapped&lost bc i cant keep doing this to myself, yet i also dont like the part of the mental ‘calmness’ where i constantly consciously have to push myself to feel&do stuff/exercise hard(i still have the ‘old habit’ of going to the gym working out,trying to tire myself/feel muscle ache’ in order to be able/before i go to the usually buffet restaurant,in other words damage control/feeling like i can eat whatever/no quantity measurement etc.)
Yet i also cant keep doing this to myself,especially bc of the constant emotional/mood/die off?rollercoaster im putting myself through!(clogging up the liver,gallbladder,constipation and such.)
The ‘calmness’state is probably what my body prefers to pack on the pounds etc,battling candida…..however i eventually feel uncomfortable this way bc i want to workout hard at least 4days a week,move but also be creatively active again(without weird anxietyfeelings,lack of inspiration/procrastination),be able to live inside society somewhat yet not being/getting tempted to go off track every time im confronted with the city/foods/citylife…..naturally not wanting/needing it anymore but being able to moderately indulge once in a while…..
Basically be happy and finding a copingmechanism to find balance and keep it that way:'(
Ive had a meeting with a personal hormonal profile trainer last week,after hearing positive things about phptrainers from barious people though theyre all on the other side of the spectrum happily steadily losing weight on the caveman diet and exercising….sometimes less) anyway havent heard from him yet…..i can imagine my case is too daunting to take on,but i really wish he can help me with the entire shit regarding,nutrition,exercise,mental/emotional/spiritual stuff….basically finding&maintaining a balanced lifestyle!bc he sure feels like the last straw before im gonna consider jumping of my roof or something out of pure frustration bc i cant seem to find/get the help i want. As childish as it probably is but i really long for someone ‘to hold me hand’/ease my mind&assure comfort me to guide me through this mess face2face….
First day RRARF:
Breakfast/Lunch: 3 boiled eggs, 3 handfuls chipotle black bean tortilla chips
Wasn’t hungry, had no blood sugar issues, lots of energy despite poor 4 hour sleep night before
6:00 pm: 3 jerk chicken legs, 2 cups rice with oxtail gravy, spinach potato dumpling soup about a cup, pickled cole slaw, forkful of tiramisu
4:00 am laughing cow cream cheese piece and cup of applesauce to ease the hypoglycemia which only made it come back in about an hour
Slept from 10 pm to about 1:30 am and I have been up since that time due to hypoglycemia and bad panic attacks. Even meditation which usually works did not help at all which means it is entirely physiological. According to the diet recovery book I did 3 things incorrectly…skipped breakfast, too much protein, not enough calories maybe.
From my research on this site it seems that for hypoglycemia you need to gradually build up to higher carbs. I am coming out of 2 years of Sisson primal/paleo because I now seem to have all the symptoms of a slow thyroid that started 2 months ago. Had full blood work done multiple times at emergency and besides one episode do low potassium all my levels are good.
There is also Challon mentioned on this site but I don’t agree with buying that gadget and I can’t afford the kit. I really don’t think it is all that necessary. I don’t go into a coma or seizure I’m hoping to fix this before that point.
9:00am I just had 1 boiled egg and I feel so much better just have no appetite and I will vomit if I try to eat more I will make lunch and eat more at that time.
There doesn’t seem to be a straight answer about how to manage hypoglycemia. I really don’t think the high carb/low fat/low protein will work at all for me because I have done it before…with lots of potato and rice and I ended up gaining 15 pounds in 1 month, was always hungry and felt terrible.
It is 9:30am and I still feel dizzy as I have felt all night. Temp is 98.006 taken 30 mins after eating boiled egg. Yesterday morning it was 96.05…5 hours after the hypoglycemia snack.
Will keep eating a more balanced proportion of carbs/fat/protein keeping them all even and see what happens. I will stay away from PUFAS and refined carbs/gluten. Will try to eat at least 2 square meals and 2-3 snacks to see if that will manage the hypoglycemia better.
Vivian, you don’t need or want to be high carb / low fat / low protein on rrarf. In fact I think it’s also considered to be along the lines of an ‘HED’ or ‘high everything diet’. Though stay away from the PUFA’s and refined carbs as much as possible, as you mentioned.
But it’s not dogmatic, and we’re all different, so you do need to adapt it where needed so it works for you. At least that’s my take on it, I’m not an expert.
cia_marie, thank you I guess I was confused about RRARF because I was looking over the posts here and there seems to be a very wide spectrum on what to eat and what macro proportions.
I feel much better today and I actually did sleep better through the night–woke up feeling very hot 2 times but I believe that is because that is a sign that I am healing, feet and hands were always warm. It was very easy to go right back to sleep. The last time I had insomnia it took much longer to recover. I do believe the balanced proportions are working for me and the additional carbs from rice, legumes and veggies and eating fruit by itself. I have also cut down on drinking water because I noticed my urine is very clear. I was also advised to switch to tap water for awhile because it contains more electrolytes.
Eating real food every 2 1/2 -3 hours with protein at every meal brought me out of hypoglycemic pattern and this, without any grains. I’m eating plenty of fruit.
Not sure this works for all, but it has for me.
Make sure you eat enough salt. Eating lots of salt completely fixed my hypoglycemia. Really surprising, but it did. When I cut down on salt lat summer I was having major crashes all the time, but I didn’t make the connection until recently and now eat something really salty if I feel my blood sugar is getting low (which is rare because I eat lots of salt at all meals now). Personally, I would add carbs in slowly and just aim for a balanced diet, going with your individual cravings. The real key is tuning into your body’s cues and appetites, not forcing something on it that it doesn’t want. It will tell you when it wants more carbs.
The Real Amy,
Thanks for the salt recommendation, I will definitely up my intake of salt. There does seem to be a correlation between electrolyte imbalance and hypoglycemia. As well, I find eating to help out the liver will probably fix a lot of these issues. I’ve decided to follow a loose version of Dr. Cabot (The Liver Doctor) which is pretty much a balanced carb/protein/fat with fresh whole foods. I’m skipping the cleanse part because I don’t want to cut out dairy. Seems as if the liver does most of the work regarding blood sugar regulation and if the liver is fatty, it effects the thyroid. Not sure of the chicken/egg if it is the thyroid that goes first or the liver on a low carb diet but my instincts tell me that I may have been eating too much fat/nuts of the bad kind that stressed out my liver.
What to do!!
Undiagnosed low thyroid (labs normal range).
Crashed on low carb Paleo.
Now, new holistic doc has me on meat, veggies, fat and fruit. Eating every 21/2-3hours.
I’m keeping the carbs up as much as possible with the veggies and fruit, my temps are going up and I’m feeling less foggy and have more energy, palps are gone, but my hair is still falling out and it is very dry and frizzy.
I’m prediabetic, starches give me spikes with the blood sugar, fruit does not seem to do this, but I would love to eat some grains and dairy, but my blood sugar spikes.
How does one keep the carbs up high enough for thyroid health and not disturb the prediabetic condition?
I’m not taking any meds.
“Some do better with sugar. Others better with starch. But in general, most do better with combination of both sugary and starchy foods mixed together ? especially early in the day when stress hormones naturally peak in a normal person.” –Matt Stone
Interesting since after 10 yrs of Paleo, i’m now trying to regain my energy leverls. I ate starches for 2 months but didn’t get much better (body temps stayed at 97.4) but now I’m adding more sugar a la Peat, although a breakfast like today (eggs, sausage and 12 oz of fresh OJ) makes me feel tired, although sometimes i cannot tell if that is just my body relaxing so i can get more sleep. I had a bunch of sugar yesterday and afterwards to the best nap i’ve had in 10 yrs. Still trying to figure out what will work for me.
I’ve been teasing out this issue as well. Initially, I thought that everything that made me feel tired after I ate it was not good for me. After all, I had come from a background of using diet and other practices to constantly stimulate my stress hormone system to get that clear feeling. I’ve noticed that the same food will affect my energy levels at various points of the day depending on my level of stress. My body’s ability to digest a given food, and my energy level afterwards changing depending on the state my body is in.
There was a time when everything I ate around noon time, the time of highest stress for me, would knock me out. I literally couldn’t function or think after a meal, especially when it contained lots of carbs. I could eat lightly to avoid that, but it would just prolong the inevitability of a larger crash (or rest response) later. So I’ve been learning to just eat whatever I have an appetite for, and taking naps when needed, looking at the tiredness as beneficial as long as I rest.
So what you’re saying is, if I wake up with colds hands and feet, I should eat calorie dense/dry foods like Matt suggests, even though it’ll probably make me tired? I do very physical stuff at work and it really sucks when I don’t feel like lifting my feet =( Maybe if I keep doing it I’ll sleep better at night and wake up earlier and be able to eat more then and it’ll continue to improve? I eat most of my calories after work, and I really try to eat them before it gets real late. I have seen tons of improvements if you’ve read any of my posts but I’m kind of thinking any energy I have is too stress hormoney a lot of the time. One thing I’ve noticed is I haven’t had heard my heart beating in my pillow like I did at first with RRARFing. To sum it all up, keeping my hands and feet warm makes me tired just thinking about it, and I sweat balllllz in the morning, no matter if it’s cold outside or not. I feel like it’s my body trying to get rid of excess water really fast to regain energy supply for the shit I lift etc… Any theories on that?
I would only eat that food in the morning if you are hungry. It sounds like you just may not be sleeping well. If I have a really shitty night of sleep that first meal will make me tired, but sleeping longer (even if the quality of sleep is low) and then waiting until I’m hungry to eat my first meal, takes care of that.
It so simple, but I know if I can sleep when I’m tired and eat when I’m hungry my body works so much better. This requires an active effort, since a normal work schedule hinders most people from doing that.
haha ya Luke you hit the nail on the head with that one. A lot of this health and stress stuff can be pretty simple but actually being able to listen to your body with our schedules, LOL. Labor day weekend folks, this is my time to catch up on my Zzz’s. But I’ve said that before…If only I could rip on some bongs (excuse me, edibles or a vaporizer, gotta be health conscious =P) and just stinkin nap all weekend. That’d be healthy, for realllz.
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