Okay, his first name is not Val. I added that. Whatever I can do to squeeze in an 80’s movie photo, damnit I’m willing to do it! He was a “real genius.”
Let’s focus more on McCully. It’s an Irish name. It’s St. Patrick’s Day. Pretty awesome huh? Yeah I know.
What’s the difference between Mick Jagger and an Irish farmer? Mick Jagger says ?Hey you, get off of my cloud. An Irish farmer says, ?Hey McCloud, get offa my ewe!
Okay, serious faces now everyone. Thinking caps?
Kilmer McCully was one of ‘those? good scientists who challenged the status quo about heart disease. Instead of merely looking at the hypothesis that saturated fat raises cholesterol and then cholesterol jumps into coronary arteries because it has nothing better to do ? meanwhile nodding his head, repeating the word ‘statin? in a catatonic state, and drooling all over his desk?
?Kilmer McCully did what a real scientist does, which is challenge a theory with more loopholes and contradictions than one can even begin to imagine (and was of course ostracized and cast into scientist purgatory for his heretical findings). Contradictions like, I don’t know, the fact that Australian Aboriginal men have low cholesterol (average less than 190 mg/dl), perfect blood pressure (average 125/77), a BMI of 23.2, and 5,000% more heart disease than butter-lovin? and higher cholesterol-havin? French women (that’s 50 times more for you non-mathorexics).
McCully noticed that there was no connection between cholesterol and heart disease, so he actually did do some real scientific work and found something that did play a role in heart disease ? elevated levels of homocysteine.
Homocysteine is a type of cysteine found in milk. But not just any milk. Specifically, Harvey Milk. It’s a joke, relax. I’m not going to eat junk food and start shooting people. I’m very sensitive to the gay community. I cried watching Milk and cried even harder watching Brokeback Mountain while the guy in front of me laughed and said ?anus? every time they said the name ?Ennis.
Homocysteine is a by-product of methionine metabolism. The amino acid methionine is supposed to be converted to homocysteine and then into cysteine. However, this conversion requires an abundance of three key nutrients: folic acid, B6, and B12 ? as well as adequate thyroid. Without those factors, homocysteine levels rise, predispose one to heart disease, cause inflammation, and accelerate the aging process.
But McCully was a real scientist with the ability to think intelligently, so I’m sure he didn’t realize the?role of thyroid in any of this?
?For many years deficiency of thyroid hormone secretion has been known to predispose to arteriosclerotic heart disease. In persons with a serious deficiency of thyroid hormone, the ability of the cells of the body to use oxygen is impaired. The basal metabolic rate is slowed in hypothyroidism, and the liver begins to make increased quantities of cholesterol and triglycerides. As a result the cholesterol and lipoprotein levels become elevated, and the risk of coronary heart disease increases? Subtle or marginal deficiencies of thyroid hormone, detected by measuring basal metabolic rate, are found to be widespread in populations with a high risk of arteriosclerotic heart disease.
Hmmm, sound familiar?? You can read about the importance of’thyroid and metabolism in health and?disease in how to RAISE YOUR METABOLISM.
But the important lesson here from a dietary perspective is pretty simple, and something that many would agree upon to at least some degree. And that would be that eating a diet with an excess of methionine and a bunch of B-vitamin depleted foods with it is a bad combination. This basic idea is not something new. Researchers noted long before the discovery of homocysteine that food is not metabolized correctly when B-vitamin intake is inadequate?
Robert McCarrison, while studying deficiency of various B-vitamins noted?
??in the absence of vitamins or in their inadequate supply, neither proteins nor fats nor carbohydrates nor [minerals] are properly utilized; some are largely wasted, while others yield products harmful to the organism.
While Roger J. Williams pointed towards a similar conclusion. This pretty much says it all?
?A large amount of information, based upon carefully controlled scientific experiments, indicated very strongly that vitamin B6 is another key nutrient which is often present in inadequate amounts in the cellular environment of those whose arteriosclerosis is extreme. Experiments with monkeys have yielded clear-cut results. When they are rendered vitamin B6 deficient, they develop arteriosclerosis rapidly. When monkeys are fed diets supplemented with vitamin B6, they have much lower levels of cholesterol in the blood than when these diets are not supplemented. The animals on the supplemented diet eat much more food than the others, and since their diet contains cholesterol, they get far more cholesterol into their bodies. This does not matter, however; the extra vitamin B6 they get allows them to dispose of the surplus, with the result that their cholesterol blood levels are not as high as in those animals that consume less cholesterol.
And?
?High or low amounts of fats or carbohydrates are not atherogenic providing supportive nutrients, specifically pyridoxine (vitamin B6), are present. But if pyridoxine is not adequately provided, regardless of the relative amounts of fat or carbohydrate, the diet will be atherogenic.
Of course the joker in all of this is that just eating nutritious foods rich in say, B-12, isn’t necessarily going to give you high levels of vitamin B-12. The human body unfortunately is much more complex. But it certainly won’t hurt to eat vitamin-rich foods in preference to white stuff ? especially white sugar and high-fructose corn syrup which, unlike fortified flour and ?enriched? rice, contains absolutely no nutrients whatsoever ? real or synthetic.
But the concept is simple nonetheless. In the straightforward words of McCully?
?The dietary factors that determine whether blood homocysteine levels are elevated are the total methionine content of the dietary protein and the content of vitamins B6, B12 and folic acid in the diet.
McCully isn’t a big fan of fats either really, as they do nothing to offset the methionine content of the typical Western diet because they contain virtually no B-vitamins just like refined carbohydrates. Of course, I’ve pointed out many times that your typical American eats up to 50% of calories from refined carbohydrates and another 35% or so from fats, leaving little room for food containing water soluble vitamins.
One solution to this is of course to, as a general rule, consume less methionine-rich animal protein. Methionine restriction in mice, not surprisingly, has shown tremendous life extension. Ray Peat, another real scientist, has postulated that many of the longevity-enhancing effects of calorie restriction have nothing to do with the amount of energy ingested, but more to do with the total quantity of methionine and other amino acids in a similar pro-aging class. And as I’ve argued before over the controversial findings in The China Study in the past, it should be no surprise that animal protein increases health risks when added to the diet of people eating more than half of their calories from refined carbohydrates like rice and noodles.
Methionine is needed in substantial quantities during the growth period of life when we are adding lots of new lean tissue. Perhaps this is why methionine content is so high in say, eggs. Methionine all goes to the muscles and organs where it is concentrated. So, as a general rule, eating muscles and organs naturally lends itself towards a much higher total methionine intake, although not all meats are created equal.
But, as we reach adulthood and no longer have such a high requirement for total protein or methionine, in a conversation about a general ?ideal? diet (and such generalizations should never be made for something so individual as a person’s immediate nutritional needs ? a major mistake the government makes is not just their dietary recommendations alone, but the fact that they MAKE BROAD, SWEEPING DIETARY RECOMMENDATIONS in the first place), there would be no harm in eating ?mostly plants? with plenty of methionine-free gelatin-rich broths in lieu of giant T-bones or perpetuating the newfound American infatuation with lean chicken breast.
There’s no reason to fear methionine of course. You need some, and when you are going to eat some animal foods it’s probably best to get after the most nutritious of the bunch, such as B-vitamin superhero organ meats (I have pate in my fridge, which also protects against nitrate deficiency!), whole eggs, shellfish, and dairy products ? particularly cheese which contains a lower concentration of the ?bad? amino acids? that part is in the whey that bodybuilders and Mercola are consuming in outrageous quantities. Same thing with egg whites vs. the yolks.
And well, you already know how I feel about eating a lot of refined carbohydrates. What I like about McCully’s theory is that it is much more congruent with the observation in all cultures of a widespread health demise occurring when each society was introduced to refined carbohydrates for the first time, with or without other dietary and lifestyle factors.
Anyway I’m outta here. All this health food talk on St. Patty’s Day is filling my mind with visions of ice-cold Guinness. Here are some other McCully quotes to make your head hurt. No wonder so few people caught on to his theory. He wrote it in language that only a PHD already tied to the cholesterol theory could possibly understand. The final quote about unifying the respiratory, oncogene, and genetic theories of cancer is particularly painful, but interesting nonetheless?
?Current thinking about how homocysteine causes plaques in the arteries theorizes that a buildup of homocycsteine in the body leads to overproduction of a highly reactive form of homocysteine that causes LDL to become aggregated. This reactive form, homocysteine thiolactone, is made from methionine in the liver by an enzyme that participates in the protein formation and by other less well-understood processes. The LDL-homocysteine thiolactone aggregates are released into the blood from the liver. Then these aggregates are taken up by macrophages of the artery wall, many of which are derived from wandering monocytes of blood, to form foam cells of early arteriosclerotic plaques. These foam cells degrade the LDL-homocysteine thiolactone aggregates and release fat and cholesterol into developing plaques. The foam cells also release homocycsteine thiolactone into surrounding cells of the artery wall, affecting the way cells handle oxygen. As a result, highly reactive oxygen radicals accumulate within cells, damaging the lining cells of arteries, promoting blood clot formation and stimulating growth of arterial muscle cells which form fibrous tissue, mucoid matrix and degenerative elastic tissue.
The homocysteine theory explains why populations that consume foods of animal origin with abundant methionine and foods that are highly processed, refined and preserved with depletion of B vitamins are susceptible to arteriosclerosis.
p. 86
?Another very interesting feature observed in cell cultures from children with homocystinuria is the distinctive pattern of growth, which resembles the pattern of growth of cancer cells in culture. Furthermore, the muscle cells of arteries grow in a similar pattern in early arteriosclerotic plaques. As explained in Chapter 2, the 19th century German pathologist Rudolf Virchow likened the increased numbers of muscle cells in atheromas to tumors of the blood vessels. In some way, abnormal homocysteine productions induces cells to lose control of growth processes, causing growth of muscle cells in arteriosclerotic plaques. Recent experiments have shown that homocysteine damages cultured endothelial cells and increases the growth of smooth muscle cells. These effects on the cells of artery walls explain in a general way the early phases of production of arteriosclerotic plaques.
p. 96
?The origin of arteriosclerosis is now understood to be a toxic effect of a by-product of protein breakdown, the amino acid homocysteine. The importance of fats and sugars in the genesis of the disease is now understood to be related to loss of vitamins B6 and folic acid through processing, refining and preservation of foods, creating an imbalance between the abundant methionine of foods of animal origin and the amount of these essential vitamins necessary to prevent a buildup of homocysteine in the body.
p. 213
?In summary, the discoveries of the role of homocysteine thiolactone, thioretinamide, thioretinaco and thioco in malignant cells offer a new way to unite the respiration, genetic and oncogene theories of the induction of cancer. The loss of thioretinaco ozonide from cell membranes leads to the abnormal respiration of mitochondria in malignant cells, with secondary accumulation of reactive oxygen radicals. The loss of thioretinaco also allows excessive synthesis of homocysteine thiolactone from the methionine, causing aggregation and altered activation of nucleoproteins, abnormalities of cellular membranes, altered immunological recognition and increased growth potential through increased activation of oncogenes and increased formation of thioco.
?For many years deficiency of thyroid hormone secretion has been known to predispose to arteriosclerotic heart disease. In persons with a serious deficiency of thyroid hormone, the ability of the cells of the body to use oxygen is impaired. The basal metabolic rate is slowed in hypothyroidism, and the liver begins to make increased quantities of cholesterol and triglycerides."
According to Peat, hypothyroidism doesn't cause the liver to produce more cholesterol but less. Cholesterol is turned into pregnenolone under the influence of T3. So in hypo. this turnover will be reduced. So the high cholesterol is just a symptom of reduced thyroid production. Experiments have shown that extra cholesterol is actually protective against heart diseases and that it reduces total mortality.
I'm sure Chris has a lot of valuable inforamtion about that.
Guiness should be served at cellar temps – 50-55 degrees F – for full flavor and enjoyment.
The rest of the article is tremendous.
On Peat's idea that it is actually less methionine (he says the same about iron) that extends life in calorie restriction: I don't know if that makes much sense because calorie restricted animals typically eat more per g of bodyweight. So, they would be getting a proportionally higher amount, even though it's absolutely lower. I suspect calorie restriction itself effects changes that extend life. The changes are obviously numerous like low insulin, low leptin, low trigs, high ffas, and lots of others, but the problem is that there isn't much consistency across models.
The point is that methionine restriction alone extended life by 40-some odd percent in the study Peat goes wild over.
I've got plenty of things to say about the irrelevance of calorie restriction in the real world with real people started in adulthood. That may come in a post next week.
Jannis-
This makes a heck of a lot more sense, especially with all the reverse corelations between cholesterol levels and heart disease – and even more reverse correlations with cancer and stroke.
@Jannis
So if hypothyroid people produce less cholesterol… Then the correlation between low cholesterol and cancer makes sense. I always thought that hypothyroidism caused only high cholesterol.
Greensmu,
Yes it makes sense. The steroids that are produced from cholesterol happen to be extremely protective. Even cholesterol itself has a few very important protective effects. That's why statins are so dangerous.
What about testosterone, is cholesterol the precursor for that as well?
Interesting post, Matt, and funny besides. I particularly enjoyed the quip about Mick Jagger and the Irish farmer.
"…5,000% more heart disease than butter-lovin? and higher cholesterol-havin? French women (that’s 50 times more for you non-mathorexics)."
To nitpick a little, I have to point out that 5,000% more is actually 51 times more, not 50. For instance, if Smith has one car and his neighbor Jones has 100% more cars, that means Jones has 2 cars, that is 2 times more cars than Smith, not 1 times more cars than Smith. Yeah, I know, I'm a little twerp, but the math nerd in me often gets the best of me.
rosenfeltc,
cholesterol is converted into pregnenolone, which is converted into DHEA and progesterone. DHEA is converted into testosterone or estrogene
DML the problem is not the math it is the word "more".
Ooh, this is so interesting. So then, the low thyroid and cholesterol connection might explain why coconut oil is supposedly so beneficial for people with low thyroid (and I know I felt better when I started eating it). Coconut oil helps to raise cholesterol, and thus allow the body to produce the steroid hormones.
In my case, the numbers make it look like it's the pituitary that isn't functioning correctly, which leads to low thyroid–not the thyroid itself having a problem. Does McCully talk much about the rapprochement between pituitary and thyroid (and the general endocrine cascade?)
My husband has stratospheric cholesterol but a really good ratio. We were with his (very mainstream) doctor yesterday and it was interesting how equivocal even a mainstream dr is now about pushing the statins. He suggested that there were statistical chances of protection from taking the statins but he did not say that it would solve everything by any stretch (to my big relief).
I think I need to read this book–and the whole amino acid alley that you're going down right now seems to be a really interesting and important one. I know my mom was going to Patrick Holford's lectures (back in England) and learning about homocysteine since years ago.
Nathan,
Yes, the word "more" is key. And by the way, terminology, such as "more", "less than", "greater than" and so forth, is a key part of mathematics, so ultimately the problem is indeed the "math."
"particularly cheese which contains a lower concentration of the ?bad? amino acids? that part is in the whey that bodybuilders and Mercola are consuming in outrageous quantities"
When you say this, do you mean that whey protein is not good for you?
Great article btw! Very interesting stuff. Thanks.
Thanks a lot Matt for this great post. It really makes sense.
I totally agree with PubliusRex about the temperature of the Guinness.
As for the article, for once, I'm a little confused. Sorry. Might be the Guinness. :)
Unless you're drinking Guinness Extra Cold!
That was nit a light read :)
In Ray Kurzweil's book "Fantastic Voyage" he has a chapter (13 – part of it can be read on google books) on defective methylation. The book claims that genetic polymorphisms that affect methylation are very common and that 10-44% of the population "have a problem with proper methylation, which can lead.." to a whole litany of diseases.
Of course, being Ray Kurzweil, his solution is to supplement with B vitamins. Not sure if that is a good idea or not.
Great stuff- but I am confused by the lean chicken breast comment. Seemed to contradict what you said about poultry meat in the last protein post, or did I misunderstand?
Hahahahahahahahahah!!1
Ok, still grinning from the Irish joke. My perfect kind of "bad" joke.
while the guy in front of me laughed and said ?anus? every time they said the name ?Ennis.
Oh, what that bothering you? My bad.
Anus.
—
Hey, you know what riddle this solves, by gob?! The mystery of the unusually high atherosclerotic plaque among Masai tribesman! That's been bugging me for years! Man, if I can put that to rest I'll be one happy camper. That was like a piece of corn in my teeth, let me tell you.
—
So here's an odd thing I just though I'd mention. Usually after a PACE workout I am ravenously hungry and eat a ton of something starchy, like oatmeal or pancakes. But today I figured I'd give that whole fruit thing a shot. I brought a pint of OJ and six bananas with me to the gym for afterwards. Well I did my workout like normal, but the OJ killed my hunger in no time flat and I sort of had to force myself to have even two of the bananas. I couldn't get a third down until Noon.
So here's my theory. Because of all the HGH I've been producing I'm in a ?leaning out? mode and my body is releasing tons of fatty acids from my ample reserves. I really don't need the calories for anything in particular. But, after PACE my body wants to restore glycogen as quickly as possible and it takes a couple meals (typically breakfast and lunch) of starchy stuff to do that. Not with OJ however. That's easy to convert and goes straight to the muscles. So my hunger is shut down and I'm back to living off the love-handles in 20 minutes instead of 7~8 hours.
Thoughts anyone?
DML,
If Smith has 1 car and Jones has 2, Jones has 200% as many, not 200% more. Saying Jones has 200% percent of the cars that Smith has is the same as saying Jones has 2 times the cars the Smith has. Similarly, if Jones has 200% more, Smith has 2 times more.
Off-topic question, but I was wondering if you could tell me what your opinion is as to whether endurance running/cardio can be done "safely" (to the metabolism) if one fuels properly? eats A LOT to make up for the deficits?
John,
Did you even read and understand what I wrote? For instance, where did I say anything about "200% more?" What you said about "200% as many" isn't necessarily incorrect if by that you mean the "final amount" is "200% of the initial amount."
To everyone:
I don't want to take up any more of Matt's blog with this issue: My first statement and critique of Matt's "math," based on the terminology he used, is correct, period. For those that need help with percentages –to really understand them, one must have a good grasp of algebra– here is a decent place to start: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percentage .
The section "Percentage increase and decrease" is particularly relevant to what is being discussed here. Read it carefully.
beer is full of B vits!!!
troy
After spending far too much time on Nutrition Data looking up methionine content for foods like chicken breast and cheese, I don't understand Matt's recommendations. Gelatin makes sense, but if one was desiring to decrease methionine or even tryptophan you should really be looking towards legumes as protein sources. Perhaps I'm missing the point and what is actually being discussed is reduced protein intake and sufficient B6, B12, and Folic acid. 80-10-10 was mentioned in the comments not long ago, is that the general direction you're going Matt?
I was reading through the archives and It seems we're starting to circle back around, sorta. hehheh
First time commenter but I've been enjoying the blog for a while. Thanks Matt!
Brock said –
"Not with OJ however. That's easy to convert and goes straight to the muscles. So my hunger is shut down and I'm back to living off the love-handles in 20 minutes instead of 7~8 hours."
Yes, I think that's what seems to be happening. My appetite has decreased a lot too. If I consume a high sugar item I only need a tiny fraction of the calories to feel full.
Overall I'm eating a lot less at the moment – to appetite.
@ Troy: Especially Guinness, hope you enjoyed St. Paddys! I feel so much better since maximising my Natural B Vits through Brewers Yeast, Nutritional Yeast, Molasses, Oats and of course the weekly beers!
Great post Matt – Since ETF'ing most muscle meat has lost its appeal anyway. Brock your comments about post workout fruit are interesting, I always tend to crave fruit on workout days anyway and end up eating more in place of startch naturally…. Having tried pounding it post workout though.
Fascinating post Matt!
This explains a lot. For example, the whole french paradox thing. Yes we eat high cholesterol foods but there is more to it than that because other europeans also eat high cholesterol foods without the same outcomes. I can't speak for all french people but i can't recall anyone I know being big milk drinkers, after childhood that is. Also organ meat is eaten very frequently and lean meats in very small portions. This seems to be changing though as many of us are trading in our pate and rabbit stew for burgers and kebabs. This could explain why many health issues seem to be on the rise. Maybe all the b-vits were offseting our intake of deficient white bread until recently.
I'm currently in anorexia recovery and having trouble eating muscle meats but this info gives me more incentive to make homemade stock. RRARFin' it has helped me regain all my weight and overcome gluten intolerance. Im not with you on the fruit thing yet though, it's not calorie dense enough to aid my recovery. I'm one of those people who can't tolerate fruits at the moment, they give me bleeding gums and eczema but that is probably due to my damaged metabolism.
i think traditional bread in france was also soured before baking which makes the grains easier to digest. i know our family handles traditionally made sourdough (without yeast) from white flour much better than unsoured whole wheat or white bread.
if i remember correctly fermented foods (whether that be dairy, vegetable, grain, or juice) have increased b vitamins. i’m staring at my kombucha bottle (fermented sweet tea) and it contains 20% RDA of b2, b6, b1, b3, b12 + 15% folic acid.
in addition they make the nutrients in the fermenting medium more bio-available and support increase of beneficial microflora in the digestive system which also helps increase nutrition to the body.
i think when you look at historically long living populations in the world, you’ll find that whether they were dairy based, grain based, fat based or meat based diets, the longest livers ate fermented foods regularly. they fermented foods to increase shelf life. still learning about all this….
Cheese is very low in cysteine but actually higher than meats in methionine and tryptophan. Many fruits (oranges in particular) seem to have very low levels of all three amino acids, so it seems one way of reducing your MET/CYS/TRP intake if you dont wanna mess around with bone broths, is to eat enough fruit to make that a significant part of your protein intake, and then complement that with some cheese and fish. I guess yet another reason why Peat is so big on fruit and fruit juices.
Day 8 of my fruit loading experience, still a bit spaced out feeling and minor headaches as others have described, but no fatigue at all, though I'm inclined to sleep a lot more, particularly in the morning. Have had some pains in my back and neck the past two days, maybe due to cortisol being lowered allowing some suppressed inflammatory processes to run its course?
It's interesting that even though I still feel pretty bloated, particularly in the face, my pants are actually feeling looser now, so I guess, even with the addition of 1500 fruit calories to my daily diet, I'm not actually gaining any fat to speak of, at least not anything comparable to how I put on weight initially when I started RRARFING. Though I guess that could just as well be an effect of the interval exercises.
Nutritionism. Maybe if people ate a bit of natural PUFAs, it would help degrade the excess protein. Ray has said that PUFAs increase your needs for protein, which he thinks causes malnourishment. Maybe it would only decrease the bad aminos and not the good ones. I would like to find out if there is research on this.
Hi Matt,
There is research going on about low carb diets slowing down metastatic cancer by starving the cancer of sugar.
The RECHARGE Low Carbohydrate Diet Trial for Metastatic Cancer
http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00444054
What are your thoughts on this and do you think the same effect could be achieved another way?
People who started eating more sugar,
Did you notice any skin alterations? When I first started eating more sugar, my skin became moister and softer. When I was eating a high starch diet my skin was always very dry, especially after I took a hot shower.
And how does it effect your sleep? When I consume a lot of sugar in the evening, I can sleep 9 hours without waking, which could be due to reduced cortisol.
About the amino acids. It's not just the quantity of TRY, MET, and CYS that matters. It's also the ratio of them to the BCAA's and glycine and proline. TRY and the BCAA's comepte for entry into the cells. And BCAA's have a lot of positive effects, like increasing glycogen. So, a food that has a high ratio of the good amino acids to TRY is probably better than one that contains a little less tryptophan but much less good amino acids. That's why cheese, which contains a little more TRY than meat, is a very good protein source.
Is the decreased appetite with increased fruit intake a good thing? I remember when I was doing IF and lost my appetite. A short while later I was getting fatter on 1500 calories a day. So, is the decrease in appetite actually desirable?
MJ, I remember looking up info on dairy and milk consumption and (going from memory on this) the French were one of the highest per capita consumers of "dairy" intake (I think that was the term that they used…it was described as cream, cheese, etc.) BUT one of the LOWEST per capita consumers of milk. This is pretty much exactly what you have noticed/experienced. Just sharing. :-)
I just looked this up and France is about in the middle of the pack on actual milk drinking, but 2nd in cheese consumption and 1st in butter consumption. So my last post wasn't 100% correct but along the right track.
http://www.foodsci.uoguelph.ca/dairyedu/intro.html
DML,
What is wrong with you?
You said, "…if Smith has one car and his neighbor Jones has 100% more cars, that means Jones has 2 cars, that is 2 times more cars than Smith, not 1 times more cars than Smith."
Jones has two times the number of cars as Smith, not 2 times more…
…Thanks for giving me an attempted lesson in "algebra" though–it's easy to recognize when someone has no idea what they're talking about when they claim a need for grasping "algebra" in order to calculate/understand percent change.
Jane,
Peter of Hyperlipid has a good related post called "Glucose, lactate, and cancer," but it's mostly theoretical. There are some rodent ketogenic studies showing increased cancer survivial rates over other diets, even with the ketogenic diets having higher PUFA. The other diets have lots of sucrose though, so who knows…
Ian,
That's an interesting idea… I suppose you could wonder the same for other nutrients, especially vitamin A.
Jannis,
As you know already, my skin got worse. The fact that different protein sources have dramatically different effects on health throws another big wrench in the whole idea of recommending macronutrient ratios, which seems to support Harris' recent series of posts. Does high carb give you diabetes? Does low carb make you hypothyroid? …These questions are pretty much pointless…
Brock said –
"Not with OJ however. That's easy to convert and goes straight to the muscles. So my hunger is shut down and I'm back to living off the love-handles in 20 minutes instead of 7~8 hours."
Rocket said…
"Yes, I think that's what seems to be happening. My appetite has decreased a lot too. If I consume a high sugar item I only need a tiny fraction of the calories to feel full.
Overall I'm eating a lot less at the moment – to appetite."
I think we need to be careful here. That is the logic that a lot of low carbers use as well. With high fat diet they feel fuller faster and more satiated so they eat less. In the meantime their metabolism slows down and they start gaining weight again.
This is what I have noticed, after increasing my sugar intake (particular with Molasses) the past week:
I am sweating hot! Not just oh-I-am-feeling-nice-and-warm-today. I am so hot I don't wear a jacket when I take my dog outside! I don't remember the last time I felt this hot (well when I wore that pink dress a few years ago but that's a different story ;-P)! My hands are warm! Yes, my hands which normally feels colder than ice! Unfortunately my temperature hasn't followed. On the downside I am breaking out and my overproduction of Testosterone seems to be aggravated too. I will give this an honest shot though since it's the only thing that has seemed to make my hands warmer which means my body is no longer having a stress response to low blood sugar.
Before, my temperature (on good days) could go as high as 36,5 in the mornings, upon rising and then drop later on.
Now my temperature is lower in the mornings but rise later on.
Does that mean a better thyroid/adrenal connection possibly developing?
Thanks John,
I was just wondering; if low carb diets slow the metabolism, whether this could negatively effect the health of the cancer patient, although I'm sure if it slowed the cancer growth that this would be the most important thing to them.
However, could healing metabolism through Matt's approach which included increasing carbs also have a positive affect for the cancer patient?
Thanks, Jane
If anyone's interested, I interviewed Dr. McCully for 66 minutes about his theory of homocysteine. Dr. Kilmer McCully Discusses the Role of Homocysteine in Cardiovascular Disease.
John,
I don't really understabd what your answer hast to do with my post. I didn't say anythig about macronutrient ratios. I remember that you wrote something about your skin. I also got some skin problems when I started eating a lot of sugar. But only for two weeks or so. After that my skin was better than ever. I had the same when I started drinking a lot of milk or when I tried high fat for a while. When people habitually eat in a certain way, any change can cause momentary digestive disturbances, causing acne, for example.
About the macronutrients. Of course I know that not all proteins, fats, and carbs are the same and that it is therefore somewhat useless to recommend certain macronutrient ratios without knowing the differences between the single sugars fats and so on. But that does not mean that you can't for example say that a diet low in carbs is not optimal. I don't think that a high fat diet is incompatible with good healths. But there is some evidence against low carb diets. Dr. Lutz for example wrote that all of his female patients had babies with lower birth weight than normal. He was mistakenly thinking that that was a good thing.
Jannis I have noticed a benefit to skin by increasing my sugar intake. This is actually very big for me, because dry skin has always been a thing on my "list".
I have not increase the amount of sugar as much as Matt and others and probably have a sugar to starch ratio that is similar to yours based on your last post at laproline.
Sleep is big. I have always been a "good" sleeper so to speak. Meaning could sleep all night long. But with the increase in sugar I have been sleeping much "deeper" — noises don't wake me, and I dream very vividly, which I have always told people I "don't" dream.
It has been about 5 weeks with an increase in sugar.
Body comp has leaned a little, specifically around the belly button…reduced cortisol anyone.
Sheila,
the warm hands where also the first thing I noticed eating more sugar. I think the temperature of your hands and feet are a very good indicator of how your thyroids works.
My temperature is lower in the morning, too. But my sleep is much better. So my guess would be that the stress hormones are decreased during the night. Did you measure your temp. before and after breakfast?
Nathan,
During the last few days I started eating much more sugar than 50g. Something like 150-180g. Plus, I eat plenty of gelatine in my soups and put some in my OJ. I also sleep much deeper and my dreams are very vivid and realistic. I have never been a good sleeper, either, so that's pretty impressive for me.
when some of you are talking about increasing your sugar, what type of sugar to you mean – fruit?
Anon said:
"I think we need to be careful here. That is the logic that a lot of low carbers use as well. With high fat diet they feel fuller faster and more satiated so they eat less. In the meantime their metabolism slows down and they start gaining weight again."
I hear you, but I don't feel any of the metabolic slow-down that I felt in my low carb days – in fact I feel like I'm faster/warmer sleeping better, softer skin etc.
Just because I'm eating less doesn't mean I'm not eating enough.
Jane –
Ideally fruit, but if I'm honest I've been using a fair bit of unrefined brown sugar. The fruit is a fairly complete source but most shop sugar is missing the nutritional elements which fortunately, can be balanced by including molasses somewhere in the day.
Jannis,
Sorry, it didn't really. I was kind of talking about your comment on the importance of good/bad amino ratio vs simply lowering "bad" aminos in the context of food choices. Anyway, I was just pointing out the holes in saying high or low carb diets are bad. What exactly were Lutz's patients eating? Just from watching Travel Channel, cultures' (Mongolian, Thai, Agentinian) animal-based meals seem very different than a typical American low carb meal.
JANNIS-
Yeah, It's pretty crazy with the warm hands and feet, a few days I actually had to take my socks of indoors because my feet were burning! I have had hold hands and feet for more than 6 years, I think so this is exciting stuff for me.
The times I have measured my temperature after eating, they haven't budged. Only difference from then (only starch) to now (sugar) is that my temperature now starts out low.
Today my temperature has been between 36 -36,3.
I will try measuring before and after breakfast, tomorrow.
I would love to have warm feet again.
As for dreaming, I've read that vitamin B6 really increase vividness and recall.
Rocket said…
Overall I'm eating a lot less at the moment – to appetite.
Exactly. I reach the point of one-mint-wafer much more quickly since I put a bit of OJ in my glass.
Jannis said…
People who started eating more sugar, Did you notice any skin alterations? … And how does it effect your sleep?
No changes, but both were fine before. My skin is excellent and I sleep like a coma patient. Always have. I've recently felt like I need less sleep however, and I've been waking up earlier without the need for an alarm clock. Not sure why. That started before sugar though.
The Real Will said…
Is the decreased appetite with increased fruit intake a good thing?
This occurred to me as well, but while I will keep an eye on it I'm sanguine for several reasons-
1. My appetite was down on non-workout days before juice & fruit. I think that's because my body is in "lean out" mode at the moment and is getting a good chunk of calories from released body fat. What the sugar seems to be doing is accelerating glycogen recovery time rather than slowing down my metabolism.
2. I'm not fasting. I'm literally incapable of eating another bite of food.
3. Body temps are the key measure of metabolic performance, and mine are still excellent. I am concscious of feeling warm all the time, even when inactive. I woke up at 4 AM (when you body is supposed to be in its lowest metabolic state) two nights ago and registered a basal body temp of 98.9 F.
So those are all good things. If they change I'll get worried. But it is a concern for some people. Reduced appetite is certainly not "always a good thing." Good or bad is very context specific.
Sheila said…
This is what I have noticed, after increasing my sugar intake (particular with Molasses) the past week: I am sweating hot! Not just oh-I-am-feeling-nice-and-warm-today.
Yes, the same. I drank a pint of OJ a couple nights ago and it was the first juice I've had in years. Later that night I was literally dripping with sweat for no particular reason and felt like a radiator. The reaction isn't as strong several days later but I am still conscious of being warmer, partlicularly in the extremities.
Body temps are the same, but I probably can't crank them much higher anyway without going into fever territory.
Jane said…
when some of you are talking about increasing your sugar, what type of sugar to you mean – fruit?
Fruit and juice mostly, some molasses, the occasional bit of honey or pure maple syrup.
—
I need to get some gelatin. Sounds like magic fairy dust.
I used to have dry itchy skin that easily became frostbitten back when I was into low-fat/low-calorie dieting, that went away completely as soon as I just started eating more fat. Since doing RRARF my only skin problem has been acne on chest and shoulders, which slowly receded as I began to lose weight again. I can't say that 8 days of fruit binging has brought any skin changes, beyond some acne breakout.
Also, though I have very stable energy throughout the morning with these fruit drinks, my appetite is consistently greater during the second half of the day and I easily get hungry, lose energy and even feel a bit ill some hours after lunch. Maybe again due to lowered cortisol?
Hey juice drinker
are you drinking self pressed fresh juice or store bought juice, does it make difference?
I ask because I know that juice in stores are pasteurized, is that an issue? Brock and other juicedrinker, especially post workout drinker lol?
Does Ray Peat have store bought OJ?
john:
"There are some rodent ketogenic studies showing increased cancer survivial rates over other diets, even with the ketogenic diets having higher PUFA."
There are people claiming to cure cancer (course they say remission usually). Joanna Budwig used flax oil and low-fat cottage cheese. I believe her more than AV, but who knows.
I'm feeling really hot, too. Tried molasses a couple times, but I did not get much from it. I sleep deep but wasn't dreaming like Nathan or at least not remembering my dreams or even that I had a dream until I added some nuts – raw brazil nuts, almonds, pecans, and walnuts, with dry roasted pistachios, peanuts or natural peanut butter. I never get really hungry, more empty feeling. And really hot then, too.
I am drinking various juices, like acerola, mango, tangerine, orange, grape, cranberry grape, or cherry. Ray Peat thinks fresh orange juice is best, and warns about defensive toxins in fruits picked unripe, as most fruits are nowadays.
N=1 of course but since I started eating more fruit and drinking OJ this week, I have also noticed being warmer at times (I'm another one that usually has cold hands and feet). With the recent talk on protein, I have been trying to just eat what I feel like instead of trying to eat this or that (still excluding wheat and veggie oils). My desire for citrus fruits has gone way up (OJ, oranges, pineapple, bananas) and it's weird, after I have a glass of OJ, I don't even have a desire for Ben & Jerry's ice cream, which used to be my nemesis. Two nights in a row of eating rice chex with a mix of milk and light cream, accompanied by a glass of OJ and I didn't reach for the B&J's. I used to crave that stuff like crack before I started eating fruit again.
So now I eat more fruit and then some starch (potatoes/rice), butter, cheese, sour cream and meats if I feel like it. I'm not ready to go 100% fruit but I'm afraid of the stuff anymore.
subscribing
I'm glad that this conversation turned this way because it reconciles a few things for me. Like Walter Breuning, world's oldest man…he loves fruit and his favorite meal is liver (kind of what we are talking about now). I know he is N=1, and probably has great genetics, but there has to be something about his lifestyle as well. I know he only eats two meals a day, but does he eat his fruit with those two meals or does he snack on it when he's not eating? Makes you think!
Mark,
You're avoiding wheat but you're eating Rice Chex? Rice Chex sounds like the very epitome of nutrtionally empty refined carbs.
—
I buy juice from the store. I get the "best" juice I can (organic, not from concentrate, no homogenoizers so there's sediment, etc.) but I don't squeeze my own. Way too much work. I think it's fine.
@ The real will
Yea my observations of low milk consumption were when i was a kid in late 80's so i imagine its gone up since then. I blame starbucks.
On a side note, I have been drinking a blender drink in the mornings of fruit, veggies, OJ and then last week I added some cottage cheese and eggs. I've been doing this since the beginning of the year. Last night I went shopping and bought bananas, apples and OJ. We have some cantaloupe too. I have to have bloodwork taken on 3/28 so I will get a chance to see if there are any effects so far. Actually on day 1, I didn't notice anything…no change in energy, not sleepy, not hungry or lightheaded, no headache, nothing. Maybe it was because I was drinking my morning blender drink for so long. Easy to do…easier than cleaning a blender every morning, LOL!
MJ, when I saw the milk consumption of France, the first thing that I thought of was that the French were putting it in their coffee, LOL!
Brock,
I don't have Rice Chex all that often, 2-3 times a week, and I don't eat wheat because I do not do well with it.
John,
I was going to drop the issue as indicated in my previous post, but your snark is just too much. Ignorant statements combined with arrogance is very irksome to me. I tried to hold my silence, but somethings just can't be allowed to slide.
Sorry, I don't think anything is wrong with me. Even if I had a problem, it wouldn't be any of your damn business anyway.
However, I do know saying "2 times the number" is the same as saying "2 times more." They are both ways of saying "the quantity has doubled."
That is, there was "x" now there is "2x". Or he has "x," she has "2x."
Working with percentages is nothing more than working with ratios and relations, which is, at root, applying basic algebra.
Go study math.
Whenever you say person A has x amount of something and person B has P% MORE, what is really being said is B has (x + P%*.01*x) or x(1 + P%*.01).
So if A has x number of pies and B has 5,000% MORE, B has x(1 + 5000%*.01) = x(1 + 50) = 51x.
B has "51 times more pies than A" or B has "51 times the number of pies than A" or "51x." Its all saying the same bloody thing.
Read the wikipedia article I linked to.
Again, go study math.
Hope you all don't mind my re-posting my questions here… looks like there's more sugar talk going on over here. And I apologize if this has already been asked… haven't had a chance to read all of the comments above yet.
By the way, when I say sugar here I'm referring to natural sugars like in fruit.
With the recent discussion about sugar, is it safe to say that the consensus here now is that its preferable over starch? Or did "I" get lost in translation ha!
It was recommended to do high starch to low fat ratio to minimize fat gain while RRARFing. Does that still stand? Would sugar be a better option than starch in that context? For example lots of fruit instead of lots of potatoes. Does fat need to be kept low with sugar/fruit as well (like with starch) for this purpose?
And what about eating sugar and starch together? Like putting raw honey on oatmeal or sweet potatoes.
Thoughts, experiences, anyone?
Hi DML,
I hate to get in the middle of this, but the term "more" is generally used to indicate "in addition to the original amount". So if you have an apple and I have 200% as many apples as you have, I have 2 apples. If I have 200% MORE than you, I have 2 apples MORE, which is 1 (your original amount) + 2 (my additional amount) =3. Not sure where you are from, but this may be more of a cultural language thing…it depends on the language that your teacher used. Sorry!!!
While I don't think I can ever come around to white sugar being healthy for you, fruit I believe.
But my question is, what about tooth pain and issues with cavities? If I remember correct Matt used to complain about tooth pain when adding any fruit to his diet. Personally, I've experienced this as well.
Where does everyone else stand on fruit vs tooth pain and dental health?
I've already had a dental catastrophe in my life from dumb-ass eating habits and lifestyle choices when I was younger, and last thing I want to do is contribute to another one. Especially when things have been turning around so well for me in that area since adopting much of what Matt advocates.
@michael
I think I recall Rami nagel said that tooth pain is basically active tooth decay.
I don't know if I believe that or not, but I had tremendous amounts of tooth pain/sensitivity when I was vegan. That got better when I started eating lots of protein. I don't know why eating protein prevented tooth pain for me but eating carbs alone caused it (more so for white rice than potatoes).
Tooth pain has stopped completely after taking a small amount (500-1000 IU) of vitamin-D this past year. Though maybe some other variables changed in that time, I can't be sure.
Real Will,
We are actually in agreement. I agree "more" usually "indicates in addition to the original amount."** Furthermore, you added the percentages just like I indicated in the formula I gave. Perhaps it wasn't very clear because of the poor formatting. My apologies, I was just being lazy.
Let x be the original quantity:
100% more of x is 2x
200% more of x is 3x
300% " " is 4x
.
.
.
800% " " is 9x
900% " " is 10x
1000% more of x is 11x
…and so on, based on the formula I gave, which is the same as the formula given in the "Percent increase and decrease" section of the wikipedia article.
No reason to apologize for chipping in! I enjoy your contributions and comments,
and John's too, for that matter.
**I never explicitly stated that because I thought most people know that, at least.
The Real Will,
Thanks–I guess when you nitpick and turn out to be wrong, you get defensive.
DML,
My e-mail is on my profile–I'd be happy to talk "math" with you any time if you would care to enlighten me.
180er,
I did not like starch+sugar, whether the sugar was from fruit or just sucrose. I've never ate one while reducing the other though, as some people have. On Andrew's blog (Proline), a few people have written detailed experiences with sugar and starch (check post labeled "Sucrose, stress…").
Michael,
I've had tooth pain with fruit but only certain kinds: blueberries, strawberries, and blackberries come to mind. Bananas and watermelon have never given me a problem in that regard. I agree with you on the "white" sugar idea. Stephan has mentioned a few cultures that have worsened their health with the addition of refined sugar without PUFA. The Tokelau Island Migrant Study is an obvious example.
Okay DML,
Let's just end this then. "200% in addition to the original" is the same as saying "200% more." Also, "saying 200% as much" is the same as saying "2x as much." But, "2x as much" is not the same as "2x more." "The quantity has doubled" is the same as "2x or 200% as much." Saying "200% more or 2x more" means that "the quantity is tripled."
…We pretty much took up the biggest waste of space in the history of blog comments…
Matt,
I read a study today that said the higher the fukitol levels in the blood, the happier the person was. the study also showed that the longer one had high fukitol levels, the more likely they were to develop cancer, heart disease, high BMI, etc…
we all know about the studies that show most americans have excessively high fukitol levels. this explains all the problems most of us seem to have. also, seeing as fukitol is directly related to dietary habits, these findings have translated over to other "westernized" regions of the world.
this begs the question; how much fukitol is considered safe? once a week? every other day?
i'd love to hear your thoughts.
totally off topic
Val Kilmer is EXTREMELY obese these days.
It's a sad loss of handsome man meat if you ask me.
that's all
xo
deb
I too have noticed that the sudden splurge of fruits has left my appetite largely satisfied and my body nice and toasty. Perhaps, as others have said, this has to do with the body's rapid absorbtion of nutrition and calories of the fruit. On starch, the body digests the food rather slowly, making it difficult for body to get the much needed energy. I felt hungry all the time eating rice and potatoes, but a couple bites but of fruit and I'm thriving. Its pretty spectacular. What I am learning from this experience is the important feature of listening to one's body. I crave fruit all the time, but of course I used to avoid it thinking it would lower my metabolism. But now that its back in my menu, I realize that our bodies are primed for survival. Our bodies do not crave "crap"- it craves energy and nutrition. One of the most amazing books I recently read was "76 Days Adrift the Sea", where the author, Steve Callahan, details his survial drifting 1800 miles across the ocean for over three months in a rubber raft while fending off sharks. He lived almost soley off raw fish, and details the transformation of his cravings. For example, he would savior the liver and the eyeballs as dessert (liver had the most nutrients, while eyeballs had most water to quench his thirst). He details his hunger and starvation, and how the fish could not satisfy his insatiable need for carbs, especially sugar and fruit. The entire book is just fantastic, and gives you a real life experience that exemplifies the amazing feats of the human body; scientifically controlled experiments are lame in comparison. Anyways, I highly recommend this book to gain a deeper insight of starvation and the body's response (its exremely well written too)
Anyone know if Brian Peskin is mostly right, or if he if full of it?
By the way, "more than ____" is different that saying "x times more than ____."
I was thinking of the former phrase when I said I agree with Real Will.
Okay, I'll shut my big mouth now…
Drat, I keep trying to leave a website url that agrees with the way I use the terminology, that is, "x times more than ___" but my post keeps getting rejected because of it.
Instead, do this: google the phrase "the math page rate and proportion."
The first result is the website you want. Go read it, it agrees with my terminology and discusses and rejects criticisms thereof.
Discussing math is never a waste of time; most Americans are terrible at it and discussing it helps the situation.
NOW I'll shut up…
Peace, my friends!
sirhc, Ray Peat needs to look more into food data, IMO. He says egg yolks have less tryptophan than egg whites, but it actually is about the same (like 1.7% higher relative to total protein). Also an egg white has more protein than the yolk (like 1/3rd). So, it it might make sense to eat the yolks and throw out the white just to limit the protein (as Jan Kwasniewski also suggests). Then again, it might be nutritionism BS.
@ Sheila: your results with warm hands are pretty amaIzing. It is still something instruggle with, they get warm after meals but soon cool off…. Would be great to know how much, and how you have integrated sugars into your diet? Maybe a sample days eating….
grass fed momma said…
Val Kilmer is EXTREMELY obese these days.
You know, he's really not. If you look at his "whole body", he's still not carrying too much fat. It's just that he's got a huge pot belly and his face is all swollen up.
He's really the poster child for the evils of visceral fat and systemic inflammation. Someone should send him Matt's free ebook.
CHRIS-
I basically started out with the Black strap molasses 3 times a day. I dip a tea spoon in my molasses jar -straight from the fridge so it's nice and thick and really sticks to the spoon (which makes more like a table spoon because of that)
I started putting one it in my porridge, with some frozen berries on top. Later, around noon I put one more in a cup of tea (it dissolves easy in the hot tea and taste great)
I do that again around 3-4 pm.
I also snack on some fruit during the day, mostly bananas.
"Just" from that I noticed a great increase in heat. It's only the last two days I have switched my porridge out with straight fruit with molasses on top.
My temperature this morning was 35,9 and 20 min after breakfast it was 36,5.
Hopefully it will eventually also crank up my temperature, all the way to the top (fingers crossed)!
Val Kilmer sounds open to RRARF:
I made a New Year’s resolution well before the year was coming to a close. I resolved to continue on the path that I have been on in recent years and to hit it home even further. It’s become ever more clear to me in recent years that this is my one true destiny and that I have to embrace it in order to truly enjoy life,? said Kilmer in an exclusive interview.
I figure there’s no sense fighting what you are. I’ve done that before and it only ever resulted in heartache and frustration and that is something that at my age I’m simply not willing to tolerate any more. My resolution for the New Year is to eat as much as I possibly can without getting sick and I am going to stick to that no matter the obstacles.
http://ifyouforgetme.wordpress.com/2010/05/10/when-does-hotness-decide-to-leave/
http://scrapetv.com/News/News%20Pages/Entertainment/pages-5/Val-Kilmer-resolves-to-eat-his-way-through-2010-Scrape-TV-The-World-on-your-side.html
Sounds like he'd be open to Matt's over-feeding approach.
@Caroline
That's some serious awesomeness you packed into a paragraph.
I too would like some more opinion on Brian Peskin. Seems to me like another "I've found the cure for everything under the sun" quack. Although providing the body with pure unadulterated parent EFA's and avoiding fish oil overdosing seems like a sensible idea.
I don't understand how people blunt their appetite from eating more sugar? For me it's the total opposite effect -I get more hungry!
Hmm…
What Sheila said…
Same here! In fact for 1 example when I eat just fruit by itself I get RAVENOUSLY hungry and want to eat everything in sight!
What does that mean?
Bruce/Ian,
Why do you keep changing? I personally like forget about diets best but I know it doesn't make it easy to address you in comments ;)
I know you by all 3 but could be confusing for others lol.
Anyway I like the balance (or should I say imbalance ;) you bring to the discussions. So please stick around.
@Haters – like it or not you have to admit that he brings up good points!
Remick said:
"After spending far too much time on Nutrition Data looking up methionine content for foods like chicken breast and cheese, I don't understand Matt's recommendations."
Matt Stone said: "One solution to this is of course to, as a general rule, consume less methionine-rich animal protein… When you are going to eat some animal foods it’s probably best to get after the most nutritious of the bunch, such as organ meats, whole eggs, shellfish, and dairy products ? particularly cheese."
Firstly, I am NOT commenting on whether the recommendation to consume less animal protein is accurate, but I did want to comment on the part about WHICH land animal protein is best in the context of this article's points.
I followed Remick's lead and went to NutritionData and put together a quick chart of amino acid composition of a few different land animal protein sources. I put the amino acids into "bad" and "good" groups as mentioned in this Ray Peat article: http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/gelatin.shtml
"Restricting only tryptophan, or only cysteine, produces a greater extension of the life span than achieved in most of the studies of caloric restriction.
…
Both tryptophan and cysteine inhibit thyroid function and mitochondrial energy production, and have other effects that decrease the ability to withstand stress. Tryptophan is the precursor to serotonin, which causes inflammation, immunodepression, and generally the same changes seen in aging.
…
An animal's body, apart from fat and water, is mostly protein, and about half of the protein in the body is collagen (which is the native, uncooked form of gelatin).
…
The main amino acids in gelatin are glycine and proline; alanine is also present in significant quantity."
Peat only makes a passing mention of methionine in that article, but he groups it with the bad guys.
amino acid composition (%)
cheese | milk | ground beef | beef liver | chicken | eggs | gelatin
tryptophan 1.3 2.3 0.3 1.3 1.1 1.3 0.0
methionine 2.6 2.3 2.4 2.6 2.7 3.0 0.8
cystine 0.5 0.5 1.0 0.9 1.3 2.1 0.0
alanine 2.8 3.1 6.6 5.6 5.6 5.8 10.6
glycine 1.7 2.3 8.2 5.6 5.7 3.4 25.4
proline 11.2 10.5 5.9 4.6 4.5 4.0 16.4
*Sorry if this chart is hard to read. Blogger won't let me format it and I can't link to it somewhere else either
[Source links at the bottom]
After thinking about this for awhile here's where I am at:
continued…
Anonymous, I am changed my signature to Mercury, because my mother almost named me that and it fits what you said about balance and imbalance. Thanks.
(Ian/Bruce/FAD)
Mercury (Bruce/Ian/FAD),
Your input here has been helpful (to me and I'm sure others) for balancing things out… so glad I could help :)
Hey I like FAD! Kind of an oxymoron and I like a good oxymoron! Too bad people wouldn't know what the acronym stood for though.
And speaking of VAL KILMER…
He is hot no matter how fat or puffy he gets! He is just so effin cool!
My all time fav role of his was as 'Doc Holiday' in Tombstone. He was an absolute 'genius' in it! Awesome movie and it was mostly because of him. And girls don't typically like western type movies but its 1 of my top 5 because of him.
Take note all you guys trying to build up your muscles… us (non-shallow) ladies don't really care much about that. Big muscles on a guy is actually a turn off to me personally. You'll get farther showing us whats on the inside than trying to impress us with the outside.
Its funny how women tend to dress to impress other woman (instead of men) and big muscles on men impress other men more than it does woman. And if you find a (shallow) woman who IS impressed… don't get upset when she doesn't care about whats on the inside… and when she quickly loses interest and moves on to another muscle-man. So just consider what kind of women you attract with all that hard earned muscle ;)
Didn't mean to go off on a tangent there but there you have it lol!
>In fact for 1 example when I eat just fruit by itself I get RAVENOUSLY hungry and want to eat everything in sight! What does that mean?<
It means that your body wants more of it. Give it what it wants and it will give you what you want.
Apex_Predator said…
>In fact for 1 example when I eat just fruit by itself I get RAVENOUSLY hungry and want to eat everything in sight! What does that mean?<
It means that your body wants more of it.
EUREKA!!!
It's funny because it really is that simple.
Well I would love it if it really were that simple guys but unfortunately for me its not.
I thought that too so I've tried eating more fruit and all it did was make me feel really way off balance… fuzzy couldn't think clearly weak and so on… I was a mess. And I was eating the kind you peel (like Matt was talking about) bananas and oranges and such.
Sheila, have you tried that too… eating more fruit when it made you more hungry? Does it help or make things worse?
Anyone else?
Brock, some random questions about basal temperature. When you finally achieved a solid high basal temp (like getting 98.9F in the morning), do you think eating a lot of natural sugars had anything to do with it, or was it just eating a lot of carbohydrates in general that did it? How long did it take before eating more carbohydrates made your temp rise? Do you often feel uncomfortably warm now? I know that the only time I consistently got a morning armpit temp around 99F was when I was chugging 5000 kcals of whole milk daily, and the heat was pretty much unbearable, I had to change t-shirts like twice per day.
Also, when you measure your armpit temp do you have to find a special "hot spot" within, or can just just shove it in and always register 98.9F? For me, the temp I register usually varies alot within the armpit and unless I find exactly the right spot the reading can go down by like one degree.
Day 9, felt a bit nauseous a couple of hours after the fruit load this morning, nearly puked during my interval training and have had a low-grade headache since then. Funny thing is I experienced something similar to this while RRARFING and then even more intensely during the milk diet (constant low grade headache for about 2 weeks that then went away as mysteriously as it came, after which I began to feel better than ever), but I still have no clear idea about what causes it.
Problems with eating fruit come solely from undereating it. So just eat more, even if it makes you puke, fart, shit your pants… fruit is not the problem, you are!
LOL
AFAIK no human group of any considerable size has ever eaten tons of fruit and thrived on it. There's got to be a reason for that. I'll stick with my starchy food.
For me a little fruit tastes nice, but after that it becomes yuk. Doesn't happen with rice, yams, sweet potatoes, cassava etc.
Btw, there's a nice convenience food in the starch department called gari. All one needs to do to prepare it is to mix it with hot water. I prefer adding it to soups or stews though.
I decided to give fruit a whirl yesterday after a long bike ride. I drank a glass of oj and that felt good. I was satisfied and felt replenished. Later i had 1/4 watermelon and that didn't feel so good. I felt terrible. I felt so agitated and full before I had enough to really feel satisfied. Slept horribly and woke up with nausea. My cuticles were so dry this morning, really weird. Truth be told i'm not a fan of fruit or anything sweet so it was not a pleasant experience and this isn't the first time ive tried to increase my fruit intake. The only fruit i can tolerate are apricots and i only eat those in season.
If the logic is that we are primates and therefore able to eat fruits in great quantities than we should be able to eat plenty of fats from nuts. I say this because in my primatology class we are learning about chimps using branches to crack nuts and eating heir fill. Not many people can handle eating so many nuts though (assumption). And in ref to meat, it does make up a significant part of their diet because when meat sources decrease chimps lose quite a bit of body mass even though they are eating fruit and nuts. I wish i had specific numbers but its spring break so meh.
I am not a chimp and a diet of leaves, fruit nuts and raw meat would make me barf on a daily basis and/or underweight (i've tried). What keeps me coming back to this blog is that everyone has great opinions and questions, very anti-dogmatic so i feel comfortable sharing my 2 cents.
I'm not low-carb or anything, i eat plenty of starchy foods i just don't like sweets, as the saying goes…"i'm sweet enough" :)
Hans:
Haha, I love that. Couldn't agree more. That approach is probably not the most logical lol.
So who is right on the tryptophan/serotonin front?
Schwarzbein's work basically says that low serotonin is the problem, that life is anti-serotonin, that it makes you feel calm and happy, etc. And she goes on to tell you how to increase it's production and lower it's utilization, including increasing tryptophan-containing foods.
Meanwhile Peat says:
"Free fatty acids and increased serotonin reduce metabolic efficiency (leading to insulin resistance, for example) and promote an inflammatory state."
"Tryptophan, from dietary protein or from the catabolism of muscles, is turned into serotonin which activates the pituitary stress hormones, increasing cortisol, and intensifying catabolism, which releases more tryptophan. It suppresses thyroid function, which leads to an increased need for the stress hormones. Serotonin impairs glucose oxidation, and contributes to many of the problems associated with diabetes."
"Tryptophan is the precursor to serotonin, which causes inflammation, immunodepression, and generally the same changes seen in aging."
"The only amino acid that has ever been found to be carcinogenic is tryptophan."
…and much more.
Has anyone been able to make heads or tails of this?
Michael, thanks so much for articulating that question so clearly: I have been wondering much the same thing, feeling quite confused and looking for the key to understanding why such opposite statements are being made (especially since my ND wants me to keep taking 5htp because in his experience it helps in mood-regulation in people recovering from EDs, and I have noticed that I feel more depressed when I don't take it–but is this just placebo?…)
It seems from all this that a lot of the benefits of high-fruit, low fat, etc, diets stem more from what you're _not_ eating–lower amino acids, PUFAs, etc–but I guess we already knew that.
I know that when I ate 80-10-10 style (for 5 or 6 years) I was hungry a lot, very oversensitive and couldn't build muscle despite being very active. But maybe this was more about my anorexia background, very low starting weight and persistent tendency to restrict. I'll also note, though, that I found it inconvenient to carry large amounts of fresh fruit with me all the time (but did it anyway–lots of squished bananas) and felt anxiety about the logistics of keeping stocked up (although I'm really good at that), and felt self-conscious about consuming such high volumes of food. I know a lot of this is my problem and there are ways around it, but eating styles can mess with your head and I just wanted to warn of that.
Eating styles can definitely mess with your head. Years of bodybuilding and stressing about getting all 6-8 meals and 4-5,000 calories per day will do that to you IME. You can develop a real unhealthy outlook on food.
DML,
You're just insulting yourself by posting links like that. I and my coworkers are mathematicians, and to say something like, "…go study math…" or "Americans are terrible at it…" in reference to "percentages" is hilarious. My coworkers were literally laughing and making jokes the rest of the day. I already offered my e-mail for any interesting math discussion (I don't consider links about basic arithmetic interesting though, sorry).
ELA and MICHAEL-
Amen to that! I myself come from bodybuilding hell.
Fruit does not bother me, although I do need some fat in there somewhere. Like raw cream in my tea or a bit of raw cheese or yogurt.
Anyone else doing the fruity thing this way?
Michael,
How does Schwarzbein explain that people with depressions often have increased serotonin, that some very effective anti depressants have anti serotonin actions, and that serotonin decreases brain ATP?
Jannis:
As far as I remember, she doesn't.
In fact, she links depression and addictions with low serotonin levels. Good points.
Anonymous:
"Hey I like FAD! Kind of an oxymoron and I like a good oxymoron!"
Yes, dieting is the fad. Counting calories, carbs, fat grams, amino acid ratios, sugar/starch ratios, natural PUFAs. Eating The Food is not a fad. Micro-managing diet or obsessing about food is.
"Too bad people wouldn't know what the acronym stood for though."
Another version is F&@$ All Diets. The first FAD acronym I noticed in someone's post was to forget about diets and I like it best. It has a better rhythm and is clean.
Michael was right, food has become the new politics or religion. They say you must eat this, avoid that, don't mix these, don't eat x and y because it depletes z, as if we're eating foods in a vacuum and it is all or nothing. Everything goes in circles and gets nowhere.
Anonymous:
Val Kilmer was GREAT in Tombstone. And you're right, his weight won't change his personality. Most young actors today are hacks. They get a role because of how much time they spend in the gym and the salon and how they starve themselves to look like somebody says to look. It has nothing to do with talent.
"Take note all you guys trying to build up your muscles… us (non-shallow) ladies don't really care much about that. Big muscles on a guy is actually a turn off to me personally. You'll get farther showing us whats on the inside than trying to impress us with the outside."
I agree. Most women think AV has a nice build and he is not extremely muscular. He looks like Matt did 5 years ago. Just an average healthy build. What's funny is that movies half-heartedly criticize men going to gyms to look like gay men think they should. Who says that's how a man is supposed to look? But every man in the movie (almost) has that underwear model build.
"Its funny how women tend to dress to impress other woman (instead of men) and big muscles on men impress other men more than it does woman. And if you find a (shallow) woman who IS impressed… don't get upset when she doesn't care about whats on the inside… and when she quickly loses interest and moves on to another muscle-man."
Not all men like stick-thin runway models, make-up, fake breasts, and collagen lips, either. Such people deserve each other. We'd be better off if all the good actors said to hell with the gym and the diet and let the business rot. Maybe then a new business would be created with people who look and act more real. People of all shapes and sizes and with all kinds of faces.
Colld?n said…
Brock, some random questions about basal temperature. When you finally achieved a solid high basal temp (like getting 98.9F in the morning), do you think eating a lot of natural sugars had anything to do with it, or was it just eating a lot of carbohydrates in general that did it?
Starch carbs, definitely. I didn't have OJ for years until just this week. It was in late December that I decided to try a Buffet-Every-Day challenge to eat like Chief described.
How long did it take before eating more carbohydrates made your temp rise?
I'm not sure I understand your question, or can answer it. I started RRARF nearly two years ago. I improved by temps a lot but never got really high. I couldn't say what my temps were in December because I didn't take them. But I started really eating in late December and had really good temps in mid-January.
Do you often feel uncomfortably warm now?
Sometimes. The other day I woke up sweating. It comes and goes.
Also, when you measure your armpit temp do you have to find a special "hot spot" within, or can just just shove it in and always register 98.9F?
I take my temps orally. Armpit readings for me are wildly all over the place. I can't trust them. Oral is much more reliable.
I felt like shit this morning. I was very tired and irritable. So I drank 2 cups of coffee with 3 sugars in each. I also had a slice of banana cake.
I felt great! So alert, so "with it." I felt like I could run for miles.
Therefore, coffee + sugar + cake = wining combination?
For all the people experiencing being uncomfortably warm, periods of sweating, etc., do you think it could be a hormonal imbalance? As in the type of thing that happens to women when they go through menopause? I've regularly experienced what I could describe as extended hot flushes (I'm male) for a few years now, and it hasn't resulted in a basal temp increase at all. I'd be careful regarding confusing the two, it that's what some people are doing.
I have been eating to appetite for 2 years (restricitng carbs to about 100g)and have put on about 28pounds so far. It has been a slow and steady gain and I started off skinny having lost weight through weight watchers. I now have a disproportionate amount of extra body fat around the middle.
Since finding this site recently I am now increasing carbs so am hoping this will help increase temperature and metabolism.
Just wondering if anyone would be able to share how long it took them to loose the extra weight and body fat? Is this process likely to be different for women?
Thanks
@Jane
Others have asked about that strategy. Wish I had the answers too but anytime those questions have been raised here lately its either ignored or responses go something like, trying to mechanically lose fat is a bad idea (belief is that manipulating your body will backfire). Yet (apparently) its ok to go to extremes like fruit gorging to 'manipulate' your body???
It was suggested that high starch and low fat would minimize fat gain but it's not been made clear (AFAIK) how effective it is for fat loss, if at all.
But with this recent talk of sugar, I'm confused. Should we eat lots of fruit instead of lots of potatoes?? And if so, should fat still be kept low, as to minimize fat gain and maybe encourage fat loss??
Anyway, if you are going to up your carbs you may want to keep fat intake low (if you don't want to gain MORE fat). And notice the emphasis on 'starch' rather than 'carbs' in general. And I would stick with natural/whole starches rather than processed kind. But you may already do/know that :)
Jane said…
I have been eating to appetite for 2 years (restricitng carbs to about 100g)and have put on about 28pounds so far. It has been a slow and steady gain and I started off skinny having lost weight through weight watchers.
In other words, a typical response to Weight Watchers. Their benefits are always in the short time and not the long term. This isn't a carb-restriction issue but a response to calorie-restriction while on WW.
I now have a disproportionate amount of extra body fat around the middle.
Including the hips and butt, or just the belly? In other words, apple or pear? Pear-shaped fat gain is just normal fat storage pattern for females. Apple-shaped weight gain is an indication your body is gaining mostly visceral fat, which is bad.
Since finding this site recently I am now increasing carbs so am hoping this will help increase temperature and metabolism.
That won't work all by itself. It's calories that make it to the cellular tissue that increase metabolism. The formula is "insulin sensitivity + over-feeding = high-metabolism."
Insulin sensitivity is a factor of avoiding all PUFAs, using coconut oil when cooking, and getting lots of fiber and "nutrition". Also, doing PACE-style exercises.
"Nutrition" is defined as (vitamins + minerals)/calories. Molasses has more nutrition than maple syrup, which has more than table sugar. Etc.
Just wondering if anyone would be able to share how long it took them to loose the extra weight and body fat? Is this process likely to be different for women?
It does seem to be different from men and women. All the men I've heard from have indicated no body composition changes from diet alone; PACE exercises were necessary to start the body fat loss process. However Matt has mentioned in the past that some women he has heard from have seen body composition improvements (sometimes very large ones) from diet alone.
Brock
That is an excellent response to Jane.
Jane
I have been RRARFin 1.5yrs now, and it took me the first year to gain 10lbs and then lose that 10lbs, this was with 'nutrition' only. Like Brock has mentioned to get really lean, you would probably need to incorporate some type of high intensity exercise. Maybe wait for your weight to stabilize, and your basal temps (97.8 and up) to come up before adding in some exercise. I am only just starting to add intense exercise, after 1.5yrs of resting/healing.
grass fed momma said…
"Fruit does not bother me, although I do need some fat in there somewhere."
Not a criticism, just an observation, but if you "need some fat in there" doesn't that mean that fruit *alone* DOES bother you? Or did I misunderstand what you were saying?
That's my only problem with fruit… eating lots of fruit by itself. Otherwise its fine when I eat a piece of fruit here and there when I feel like it.
—
Hans said…
"Problems with eating fruit come solely from undereating it. So just eat more, even if it makes you puke, fart, shit your pants… fruit is not the problem, you are!
LOL
AFAIK no human group of any considerable size has ever eaten tons of fruit and thrived on it. There's got to be a reason for that. I'll stick with my starchy food."
I LOVE IT! Thanks for that!
"For me a little fruit tastes nice, but after that it becomes yuk. Doesn't happen with rice, yams, sweet potatoes, cassava etc."
DITTO! And thanks for the tip about gari!
Jane, I did not lose any of the weight I put on during RRARF until I actively broke off from the overeating routine by cutting back on my meal frequency (went from eating 4 huge meals a day every 3-4 hours, to 2 huge meals 5-6 hours apart, did not change anything else about my diet and took care never to deprive myself or not eat to appetite). That way, in about six months I lost about 45 pounds out of the 65 I initially put on, without a surge in appetite or fatigue, though I still was not looking as lean as before RRARFing.
Now, with these interval exercises and morning fruit loads, even though I still feel pretty out of it and look bloated and tired, I have actually leaned out somewhat instead of gaining weight. I don't know if the 1500+ kcals of extra sugar is contributing to or impeding this fat loss, maybe it's all due to the exercise, but it is happening.
John,
Here is what Webster had to say about the issue of "times more":
"The question to be asked … is not whether it makes sense mathematically, but whether it makes sense linguistically ? that is, whether people understand what it means. … The 'ambiguity' of times more is imaginary: in the world of actual speech and writing, the meaning of times more is clear and unequivocal. It is an idiom that has existed in our language for more than four centuries, and there is no real reason to avoid its use."
–Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of English Usage (Not the full quote, full quote is much longer.)
In short, 15 is three times more than 5.
3x is three times more than x.
Two cars is two times more than one.
There is no difference between saying "x times more" vs saying "x times as much."
The difficulty is only imaginary.
My experience is similar to Collden's but without the exercise. I started to lean out after switching to eating only once or twice a day. But like Collden said making sure to always eat to appetite and never go hungry. I never feel hungry or deprived. Don't worry about diet composition (when eating this way) just eat mostly nutrient dense foods until you're satisfied.
But unlike Collden I am female and I don't eat breakfast or lunch. I eat my 1-2 huge and highly nutritious meals later in the day past lunchtime. I eat at dinnertime and if I feel like it sometimes I eat again at suppertime.
In my research (and found to be accurate in my experimenting) I discovered that morning is the worst time to eat for someone with extra bodyfat (to lose) because this is when your body is in prime fat-burning fasting mode. For someone who needs/wants to lose bodyfat this is a good thing and breaking the morning fast will disrupt that prime fat-burning mode. I personally take advantage of it for as long as I can. I have tons of energy and no hunger or deprivation.
Again, this applies to those who have extra bodyfat to lose. This should not be done by those who are lean and have very little bodyfat. Those people should eat breakfast and break the morning fast cause there's no bodyfat to use for energy.
IMO eating frequently is over-hyped and misconceptions about it abound because people think that "skipping meals" is bad and "eating frequent meals" is good. But as long as you feed your body sufficient nutrients and calories when you do eat (overall), meal frequency doesn't matter. But for someone who has extra bodyfat that they want/need to lose, eating frequent meals doesn't allow time for fat-burning between meals. Spacing meals far apart (and taking advantage of the morning fasting mode) does.
If you must eat breakfast/lunch, eating fruit would be best (a quickly digestable protein like greek yorgurt & cottage cheese being a good second choice) for still getting some benefit from the morning fast.
Hope this is helpful. If you try it please report back how it's working for you.
Any thoughts (good, bad, or ugly – well you don't gotta be ugly about it ;) on this would be welcome.
"For all the people experiencing being uncomfortably warm, periods of sweating, etc., do you think it could be a hormonal imbalance? As in the type of thing that happens to women when they go through menopause?"
I have been thinking the exact same thing today!
Here are my thoughts: If you feel hot and brothered without an increase in your temperature, could it maybe mean that you have an hormonal imbalance going on? -And Would this eventually pass?
As for me, I have felt incredible hot, so hot that I kick the covers off at bedtime. I really feel like I am going through menopause, and I'm only 28?
Collden said:
"Many fruits (oranges in particular) seem to have very low levels of all three amino acids, so it seems one way of reducing your MET/CYS/TRP intake if you dont wanna mess around with bone broths, is to eat enough fruit to make that a significant part of your protein intake…"
That is part of what I'm getting at. I haven't put all the pieces together yet as you will notice. That is one of them. Another is what Jannis pointed out which is that it's about ratios not just the total content of those amino acids.
But I've found the most reasonable solution for myself has been reducing total protein intake and increasing carbohydrate intake – especially from fruits.
Jannis-
My skin is much more moist with fruit added to my diet. It's a night and day difference. And I've noticed that sleep quality generally improves anytime you consume a lot of fruit. It doesn't just have to be at night.
John-
"Does high carb give you diabetes? Does low carb make you hypothyroid? …These questions are pretty much pointless…"
I'll answer them anyway…
1) No
2) Yes
Sheila-
That's so awesome you are feeling warmer. I knew there was something to sugar, as our conversation a couple months ago about it on the 180 metabolism blog was my first realization of it.
I think the lower temperature thing in the morning is fascinating. I think both the adrenals and the thyroid are involved in body temperature regulation, as taking amphetamines will increase body temperature even though they are anti-thyroid.
So one could potentially have a normal body temperature, eat fruit, have a drop in temperature due to the adrenal glands moving out of the way, and then you can sort of see what your actual thyroid gland is capable of. In other words the adrenals no longer have to compensate for thyroid weakness. I suspect something like that is happening to you, and that you are on the right track. How you feel is probably far more important than the actual morning temperature for now.
Anon: I meant fruit does not cause me distress in the GI tract nor does it make me dizzy etc as other said. but I like a little fat in there too, not much, just a bit to keep me from being hungry for longer.
New Anon: I do this too and many times skip dinner or have a carb/starch type thing, again with a bit of fat. I think fasted walking in the am is great too… and a fruity morning seems to be agreeing with me more than the meat and egg festivals of yore.
sheila: listen to ray peats last interview, he talks about hot flashes happening to him and other non meno folks. It does happen.
xo
deb
180er-
I would think the recommendation should not be that one is preferable over the other, but that either or a combination of both would be ideal. All I'm really saying lately that is all that different is, add fruit and juice to your diet (I think store-bought is fine personally – not ideal, but fine), and facilitating an interesting conversation about protein, which few discuss in depth.
Ela-
From what I understand, you want your pituitary to not be working. The ideal TSH level is 0 according to Peat, and I see where he's coming from on this.
Cancer-
Any diet that is anabolic is probably not ideal. Yes, there's an opportunity to prevent further cancer development by improving cellular oxygenation with an increase in metabolism, but it's just not foolproof enough. Something like Budwig or Gerson therapy is probably better than trying to go on a ketogenic diet. I'd take cancer over a ketogenic diet any day.
Joanne-
Awesome. Thanks for the link to your McCully interview. I'll listen to it when I get a chance.
"I think fasted walking in the am is great too"
i doubt a fasted walk is a problem but it reminded me of this from one of peats articles
"For example, men who went for a run before breakfast were found to have broken chromosomes in their blood cells, but if they ate breakfast before running, their chromosomes weren’t damaged. "
terpol, I did hear that too from Peaty. I should have qualified my 'fast' usually involved drinking a yerba mate/ vanilla roobios tea with some raw cream in it (now with molasses, YUM).. not more than a tbls but it is fat/calories. Nowadays I am more likely to have that and an orange or banana too before the walk. So not entirely fasted but no big gobs of food either. Same for yoga, food in the tummy makes it super uncomfy.
deb
Fukitol-
Fukitol is a potentially life-saving medication for those who care about their diet and lifestyle so much that it starts to become unhealthy.
But it is contraindicated for pretty much everyone drinking a Big Gulp today. Like many hormones, you don't want to supplement when the body is already making enough of it itself.
Tooth pain-
My teeth feel better than they have in a long time eating buttloads of fruit. They feel really good when I eat no fruit as long as my starch intake is high. they feel the worst when I eat a lot of fat and meat with fruit. Perhaps this predicament will go away over time.
This is one of those tricky situations I find with fruit, and the reason why a conversation needs to be had about it instead of just saying, "oh yeah, eat some fruit it's good for ya."
My prior solution was to eat no fruit for long strethes and then eat lots of fruit solo for a couple days and then go back to "normal." I'm almost the reverse of that now, snacking on fruit and juice pretty much all day until my body knows it's time for something more substantial – usually around dinner time.
Mattie Mole
Do you think the addition of Mole asses and bone broths et all and the mineral rich sea creatures effect the tooth deal?
Just a thought from my cobwebbed mind.
xo
hag
Michael-
Peat. Schwarzbein is not an academic and has sort of taken the standard approach. Sure, there are some who need more serotonin – especially those with eating disorders or other things that totally impair the body's ability to make all neurotransmitters. But as a general rule, Peat is not making up stories about serotonin and its hibernatory effects.
Hans-
Fruit rots easily and is inconsistent, only edible during the peak of ripeness and seasonal. The nutritional superiority may not be the reason for starch favortism, but survival. Just throwing that out there.
MJ-
Primates eat nuts. Primates do not eat a lot of nuts. They also don't have 8 times the omega 6 in their tissues that is biologically normal for them like modern humans. Most primate diets derive only 10-20% of calories from dietary fat – most leaning towards 10%.
No one is trying to make you eat fruit. Eat it if you want to or if you notice it enhances your energy levels or comes with other benefits (which you cannot determine with one fricking day (OFD) of experimentation with it).
I've had every negative experience with fruit in the book. The runs, gas, tooth pain, emotional problems, fat gain, falling body temperature, ravenous hunger, insomnia, zits, fungal infections (although very minor).
I no longer have those problems. So it's hard to blame fruit for those problems knowing what I know now, which is that fruit was not the problem but me.
Openness is key. It enables a person to experiment with things for themselves and really give different concepts a fair trial. Openness also leads one to be open to the idea that certain foods aren't right for them – either in general or in the current state they are in. A closed-minded mandatory presciption to eat as much fruit as possible no matter what is not what anyone here is throwing around.
this is the third time i've tried posting this. it keeps being deleted =(
some thoughts on all this sugar talk (also, thanks to Peat for a fresh perspective on nutrients)
-it seems the body has a fructose "metabolism". at least, when i first started eating lots of starch i had just come off of eating raw meat and fat for 6 months and i could eat and eat potatoes and never feel truly satisfied, much like how i feel now with fruit and molasses. however, just like starch it seems that slowly my appetite response to sugar is improving.
-i'm going to the bathroom much quicker, easier, and cleaner than ever before. the only other time in my life it's been like this was when i was eating zero carb. i'm 23 and have had constipation problems my entire life btw.
-when i first started eating fruit i'd get an intense "up" feeling that would turn into irritation and later on drop to a feeling of giggles and extreme relaxation. it was exactly like smoking pot. supposedly smoking pot releases a chemical into your body that your body naturally produces and uses in times of stress to relax the human animal. my guess is that fruit causes a stress on your body that releases this chemical. now i simply feel more alert and creative whenever i eating fruit. the more fruit i eat the more prominent this feeling.
-I read Peat's article on caffeine and how you could argue it's a nutrient given how vague current definitions of nutrients are. well, i'm getting that same feeling with sugar. obviously it isn't required at all, in fact any carbohydrate isn't required by the body whatsoever. for all we know, the way a zero-carber's body functions is the way the human animal functioned for hundreds of thousands of years, it just so happens it stumbled upon carbohydrates that, although totally not required by the body, had many beneficial factors that made life easier for us, much like caffeine seems to do. i don't know much about how the body processes of simple sugars in comparison to starch, but it sounds to me like a case of something that is in actuality slightly taxing on the adrenals, however it offers a multitude of benefits that far exceed that drawback, at least in a "healthy person" (how precise of i).
any thoughts? i personally find this very exciting because you could apply this to a number of things nature offers to us that are deemed "bad" for one reason or another.
-Anonymous
Deb-
Fruit still has a tendency to hurt my teeth if I eat it with milk – as does molasses. So I don't think it's just the minerals. Eating more protein causes higher mineral excretion, which is probably one key reason why eating more fruit and less protein has had a positive effect on my teeth.
Terpol-
Yes, Peat likens the physiological changes induced by fasting in the morning and fasted training as similar to what changes take place from exposure to radiation.
Yes, it works for fat loss. Radiation used to be used medically for many things as well.
Increased meal frequency does keep cortisol and adrenaline lower. It ensures that any fat lost is due to an increase in thyroid and not an increase in catecholamines which causes accelerated aging, slows down the thyroid, etc. – in addition to its fat burning and appetite suppression effects that are so effective for fat loss.
Jane-
Generally older women lose more weight than any other demographic following 180D ideas.
Matt–thanks for the clarification on Peat vs. Schwarzbein. I don't know if you can answer this question, but do you have any idea of how I would know when I don't 'need' more serotonin/5htp? I'm guessing that the longer I keep up not restricting, and not restricting any macronutrient group, and generally allowing my body to recover, the less I'll need the supplementation. I'd just like to know when to quit taking it before it starts to be detrimental.
Good clarification about problems with fruit being problems with you: I think that makes good sense (although some of the unhealthiest people I've ever seen (scary-unhealthy) have been fruitarians–and convinced they're steps away from the fountain of eternity also, and I know that's not what you're advocating).
I think that that 'survival' point was part of what I was trying to say with the psychological/anxiety problems around eating high-fruit. You better believe it can be hard to score high-quality produce up here in AK! (I lived in CA and HI when I did high fruit.) But I'm looking forward to trying more fruit on for size.
Thanks Everyone,
Brock:
I kept the Weight Watchers weight off for 4 years inlcuding after having a baby, but I think I was so determined not to put it back on that I must have been eating less than I needed without realising and as soon as I truly ate to appetite it came back.
I do have extra weight around hips and legs, but I would say in proportion to everywhere else, but much more around the middle. My waist is not much smaller than my hips.
I have been overeating on nuts, as I didn't realise the problem with omega 6, but changed my fats to healthy ones like butter and coconut oil 2 years ago.
I've probably been eating low fibre in trying to restrict carbs. Have been suffering with constipation, which has stopped since introducing some fruit in the last week or so.
What are PACE exercises? Does that just mean short duration but high intensity?
Colld?n & New Anon:
I do eat fairly frequently. If I don't eat just before I go to bed then I wake up in the night and want to eat. I have been breastfeeding for 4 years so I don't know if this would have made me want to eat more frequently. I will think about this and try larger more spaced out meals.
Thanks
Low serotonin is probably a factor of being starved for many years and chronic undereating. I imagine eating a calorically-appropriate diet with plenty of carbohydrates would enable you to synthesize more than enough serotonin to keep from having mood disorders.
Being a fruitarian is retarded. No primate is vegan except for human fruitarians, which are an endangered species! More endangered than they realize!
But that shouldn't mean that fruit is bad. In the right context maybe it's great. Maybe a fruitarian diet would be great for chronic conditions if you did it for a month. I could see that having therapuetic benefits. It's those who stay on it for many months and years that bring about their own demise.
But I've eaten salami, mozzarella cheese, and pork liver pate in the last 24 hours. So I wouldn't exactly compare my diet to a fruitarian diet.
That's like comparing a high-salt diet with no water content in the foods or drinks vs. a high-salt diet with lots of water. The tweaking of one minor variable determines whether the outcome is perfectly fine, or ends in death from dehydration.
"Fruit rots easily and is inconsistent, only edible during the peak of ripeness and seasonal. The nutritional superiority may not be the reason for starch favortism, but survival. Just throwing that out there."
Does this also apply to tropical regions? I think not really. Actually I'm just reiterating your argument from the potato days. Back then you said the same thing and used the Kitavans as an example.
Jane-
Belly fat is a long-term manifestation of excessive stress hormone exposure. Many people don't connect their belly fat to diets from years ago. Or they do low-carb for a couple of years, add carbs back, gain belly fat and say,
"Golly gee whiz these carbs made me insulin resistant and gave me a potbelly – better go back to carb restriction and intermittent fasting to get it off!"
And then when they stop that they gain belly fat back again.
I point out many times that in Ancel Keys's starvation study that the subjects had little visceral fat, had calories restricted, and then dramatically increased visceral fat after being allowed to eat to appetite again.
Without the period of calorie restriction, they would have never developed body fat.
Of course, lack of food is just one stress. Child birth, menopause, traumatic events, infections – these are other common causes of exposure to the same belly fat hormones.
Don't look at your belly fat and say, "Ah, this is going to give me diabetes! I must get this belly fat off of me!"
The belly fat itself is not harmful. Trying to lose it usually is. What you must figure out is how to stop doing/eating what is causing you to store belly fat while eating to appetite. That is just a symptom, and is the aftermath of what the body's been exposed to in the past.
For instance, I can gain visceral fat very easily by doing excessive endurance exercise and then later stopping the exercise while eating to appetite of junk food. It's a breeze!
But in my current state I couldn't even gain more than a few pounds eating junk food before my appetite completely tanks and I'm sweating profusely and fidgeting like a mofo.
Thanks, Matt. Yeah, great example of your salamified fruitarianism!
I'll play around with the serotonin thing and experiment…
And on your next comment–it's awesome that you can see those differences vis-a-vis building visceral fat or not within your own body. It's great when self-experimentation starts to bring positive outcomes. Endangered species fruitarians, yes indeed–so many scary experiments.
Hans-
Absolutely. Just playing devil's advocate, bringing up another perspective besides the ol' argument – "but what did Paleo man eat?"
Clearly this line of thinking does not reveal the optimal human diet, or provide any insight on what foods or combinations of them can be used to combat specific problems (like poor sleep, cold hands and feet, low energy levels, digestive problems, and other issues that fruit seems capable of improving in many cases).
Hey Matt, I love the way you cover several of our comments with just one sentence! You have that cool Val Kilmer kinda genius thing going on (minus the bodyfat and puffiness of course). He needs your help. He's RRARFing these days, but with the SAD. Someone needs to show him the right way to do it :)
Anyway, that's interesting what you said about meal frequency. I need to look into that more. I wonder if exercising (actually not exercising) makes a difference? Seems that was a factor in what Peat was pointing out.
Outside of walking, the occasional short/intense sprints (as in running from danger or running after prey) or short resistance training (as in pulling, pushing, lifting, climbing, swimming, jumping, etc.) and regular everyday activity – I think exercise is just a chronic stress on the body (and definitely not a good combination with fasting) – which I think is a factor (in that context). What do you think?
With regard to meal frequency/IF you referred to the Keys study and calorie restriction. But if a person, doing short fasts (eating 1-2 meals a day), is not restricting calories and eating to appetite (plenty of calories overall), wouldn't that be different than the starvation study, thus producing different results and causing none of the negative side effects of rebounding fat gain, hormone imbalances, etc.
Just seems a little like comparing bananas and apples, rather than bananas and bananas :) And again I think exercise (or not) is a factor (in this context).
I really am interested in hearing more of your thoughts on this. Only here to learn. Thanks for sharing your vast knowledge :)
New Anon: on the exercise as a chronic stress, I would be inclined to agree with you, except for the example of my husband, who seems to 'need' to exercise tons, both cardio and heavy lifting, every day or else gets cranky and fidgety. It seems like he gets stressed if he _doesn't_ exercise! Now, he's 62 (he's almost 30 yrs older than me) and grew up on a farm where no equipment worked, so it's a lifelong habit/addiction for his body–and he's now slowing down a little bit and having to reimagine his identity.
I know this is just anecdotal, and for me exercise is definitely very stressful if I'm not careful. Another example, I guess, of ymmv and how hard it is to generalize.
Matt,
I was starting to get sick of eating the same food so your past few articles have arrived at the perfect time and I'm open to exploring. And after seeing his name mentioned enough times, I finally decided to check out this Ray Peat guy and see what he's all about. Considering both of your material, this is one of the things I've been thinking about lately:
It seems to me that human nutritional thinking has made carbohydrate the most mysterious macronutrient. By various experts and factions, carbohydrate has both demonized and canonized.
Ray Peat: "An animal's body, apart from fat and water, is mostly protein"
For some reason, this simple statement really got me thinking.
Our body is made up of mostly water, fat and protein. So fat and protein consumption is necessary for structural use: muscle, bone, cartilage, cells membranes, hormones, etc.
So generally speaking, fat and protein are structure and carbohydrate is energy. Our bodies can make energy by breaking down fat and protein, but we can't make structure from carbohydrate. This part of the low/no carb philosophy: consumption of fat and protein is necessary, but not carbohydrate.
But our bodies need structure AND energy, so why not make things easier for the body and consume some energy.
Okay, I don't know if this will sound stupid it's obvious or stupid because it's simplistic, but what about this:
What if we only eat enough protein and fat for our body's structural needs and then use carbs for our body's energy needs. Wouldn't that be the most effective and efficient method? Wouldn't eating carbs be easier on your body then forcing it to deal with long term energy storage (fat) and energy creation (fat and protein catabolism)?
Yes, vitamins and minerals are needed too, but let's just say you are getting those in your diet already. In that case, maybe it's good to have fruit, maybe it's good to have fruit juice, maybe… just maybe … it's even good to have refined sugar – just as long as sugar (energy) isn't displacing fat and protein (structure) or nutrients.
Ela, I immediately thought of the analogy of someone with an addiction before I got to that part in your comments about that. A smoker who quits or goes too long without a fix gets cranky and fidgety too – and the fact that smoking suppresses those symptoms, doesn't mean it's good for them :)
Thank you for sharing that. But yes it's hard to fit it into the same context because of that – his particular case and history/addiction to exercise – which yes that speaks to your comment about generalizing. I agree.
Jane, about waking up hungry in the middle of the night. I was the same when I was RRARFing and eating my last meal shortly before bedtime.
You might want to try actually eating a much earlier dinner (at least 4 hours before bedtime) so that you give your blood sugar and hunger hormones more time to stabilize before you go to sleep. One could think going to bed on an empty stomach would make nighttime hunger worse, but in my case it practically eliminated the problem.
I also think that the belief that you need to eat something before you go to bed in order to fall asleep or sleep well can be a problem itself, since it just causes a lot of anxiety over whether you're really full enough to sleep well, or worrying about getting hungry again before falling asleep, etc. Brooding over stuff like that can keep you awake for hours by itself.
the times i sleep best is when i have a sugar binge about an hour before bed. 200g+ sugar and plenty of fat. about a litre of ice cream, fruit and chocolate does it haha. out like a light
@ new anon
i think the thing we need to reconsider is what is the definition for "good for us". it seems to me that anything that is within our body's ability to cope is "good for us", it's just a matter of how good our bodies ability to deal with stress is.
look at matt and him increasing his girlfriend's tolerances for food.
look at the kitavans and their smoking habits. they do just fine, nary a case of lung cancer to be found amongst those who follow the "traditional" kitavan diet. we all "know" smoking is bad for us, but if you look at all the research it actually has many beneficial effects on the body, it's just with most people's compromised health as well as all the chemicals they add seems to be a stress that our bodies can not cope with very easily.
-Anonymous
Anonymous, you actually did the same thing Ela did and summed up (part) of my point, with your last statement :)
But first I wouldn't agree that our body's ability to cope with something means it's "good for us" – and I don't want to just cope, I want to thrive!
But back to the smoking thing – the smoking analogy was probably not the best one to use (on my part) because context is the key here. And in your example smoking (natural) tobacco itself (like what the Kitavans and others do) isn't what causes problems that our body has to "cope" with – it's smoking chemical-laden tobacco products like commercially packaged cigarettes that do. So in that context your example doesn't lend to your point, it actually lends to mine – about chronic stress and the things that cause chronic stress AND things that don't, in their respective context. In other words, people believe smoking in general causes cancer, but it's not the smoking per se that does – it's the chemicals if you smoke packaged cigarettes. So when someone talks about whether smoking is bad for you or not, it depends on in which context you use.
Context is a key factor – taking things out of context and putting things in context. You gotta compare apples to apples :)
I used to say "there are 8 essential amino acids and essential fatty acids, so which ones are the essential carbohydrates?" I made the mistake of thinking that because we could live without carbs that it was optimal to live without them. There was an elderly gentleman that broke down in the desert and he survived by drinking the windshield washer fluid out of his car. Because he "survived" by drinking windshield washer fluid, doesn't mean that it is optimal. I'm finally learning that carbs are very beneficial.
As far as sugars vs starches, I think that consumption of both may be optimal, although I don't know what ratio. It may be a matter of comparing them to lighter fluid and charcoal. If you light up lighter fluid by itself, it was flash and burn pretty quickly and then out. If you try and burn charcoal by itself, you may never get it going. But with the two of them together, you get the best of both worlds with sustained energy. In the human body it's probably not necessary to consume both at the same time, but we are a little more complex than a grill.
Matt, this fruit thing may be a way of getting the benefits of IF without the negatives.
theres several of us in this house that follow your blog and we all have diff opinons and experince and historys. but its cool what we get out of debating about it all and the topics and points thats brout up here.
so heres my opinons. i like matt but man i think some times you do what every one does some times and grab a idea and run with it and defend off any thing that contradicks it valid or not. like fruit you use to hate and you found out you shoudnt. some peeps tried to tell you that for months but you use to risist all points in favor of friut valid or not. you stick to your own belief and say most things like there facts and you dont say any thing when you cant explain some things away. just say i dont know or admit you may be wrong abuot some things its ok. just keepin it honest man not hating on you. you just said openess is key.
but the deal with pufas i dont think theres any thing bad about pufas in whole foods. i think only the shit made in factores is the bad shit. but you hate all pufas even tho it makes no sense to you to hate all fats and all carbs and all starchs. remember whats the common diff between good and bad of those foods?
and i think you dismiss and hate on all fasting with out any real reasons to. and things you say about it like there facts make people thinks its bad when fasting is a natural thing and jus one of body processes. theres no bad sideffects if some ones eating good food and enuff calores ever day. going part of a day with out food is natural to our body. people made up so many meals. humans just recently started eating so dam much and often cuz of marketting and profitting.
not trying say people shoud or shoudnt fast thats there choice. but like the real deal will said fruitfasting is good if some one doesnt want to go that long with out food. but there always suprised they can and how good they feel. but if you cant or dont want to then try what matt does eat fruit all day then eat a big mixed meal of good whole food. but even ones that have natural pufas. stop being scared of all pufas just cuz some are bad. just dont eat factory made shit of any thing.
@ 1ofus
Maybe PUFAs are all bad, but I think there may be other qualities in those food that offset the PUFA negative. I've been wondering about that for a while… Aren't the PUFA demonizers going too far? On the rawpaleo site they say that when used in cooking, sat fat reacts in a worse way than PUFAs, for example. The WAPF favorites, the Maasai, do get atherosclerotic plaque. Even though they don't get the resulting heart disease, will it be the same for us city dwellers? Or recently Heather Twist that sat fat enhances iron absorption. It's all too confusing.
good point and that was some thing that some one i think it was elk66 brout up months back to matt about vit e in food (i think he said pork?) protects against any bad effects of pufas. and matt could offered no explaination hmmm.
yes maybe pufas are bad when you extract it and eat it and feed it to a bunch of rats in large and un naturl amounts. but i think eating food whole is what were supose to do not seperate all its contents and put them in diff packages then eat. and we wonder why people aer sick and fat. its not pufas or any foods fault its our fault.
its only confusing cuz we make it confusing but its not. yes all of them take things to far. we all do some times. even matt.
btw i cant spell fer shit but i aint no dumbass and i don't eat shit haha.
Hi 1ofus,
Actually, I didn't say that fruit fasting was good…just saying that it was possible. I don't want to give anyone the impression that I actually know something, LOL!
Fasting can be tricky. Matt has said that if your adrenals aren't up for it, fasting can be bad. Fasting is a stress to the body just like any other stress…physical, emotional, mental, etc. If the body can adapt, awesome…if not, it just drags you down. And all stresses are cumulative.
Back when I was getting my MBA, while working full-time, my wife was pregnant with 2nd child, I was doing intermittent fasting and high volume weight training…which allowed less than an hour of sleep on many, many days. All of that together was too much for me and I toasted my adrenals and thyroid. My hunger went down (which I thought was a good thing) until I was eating 1500 calories a day and started getting fatter.
Maybe some people can do fasting and be well long-term, but every time I try anything like IF anymore, I slide backwards (crazy heartbeats, nervousness, fat gain, hunger decrease, and on and on). Just my story…and I'm stickin' to it, LOL!
Matt,
On behalf of all meno ladies, I thank you for mentioning us.
I have come to see the light exactly as you are stating it.. did raw vegan, got super skinny but totally hyper. Ate real food, got fatter, more insulin resistant etc.. NOT because of the real food, because I had so f'ed up my thyroid function, my hormones etc and my body was running on empty so long it did not want to lose fuel again. I basically trained it to eat itself. Unless you are doing a reinactment of 127 hours, not a good thing.
I now am Peaty with it, fruity, shrimpy, fishy, raw cream and cheesey, chocolate, butter, coconut oily and even my hubby said, "hey you look good!" yesterday. I feel like after almost two years my body (and mind) have had enough fukitol to fuel my leaner, stronger self.
I would wash Matt's feet if he lived near me. That's how much healthier I am. Not emotinally though I guess :) JOKE folks I kid because I love, Just like Triumph the Insult dog.
xoxoxo
haggy on the mend
I'm still not convinced that moderate IF (like eating twice daily) has any significant negatives as long as you don't combine it with low-carb or calorie restriction. It's been said that the fat loss "only" comes from increasing adrenaline, but I don't know of any way that fat loss can come about except by activating adrenaline or other stress hormones, as it seems that even the increased energy expenditure seen with a high-sucrose diet is accompanied by increased catecholamine levels.
To lose stored fat, it must be released from fat stores into circulation as free fatty acids and then taken up by active cells to be oxidized, this lipolysis more or less requires the action of either catecholamines, glucagon or growth hormone.
I think the dichotomy between thyroid and adrenal fat loss is false, the thyroid doesn't directly induce lipolysis of stored fat itself, it acts via adrenaline, it seems primarily by upregulating the bodys sensitivity to catecholamines or potentiating beta-adrenergic receptors and increasing receptor density, thereby in effect enhancing the action of adrenaline. Similarily, a primary defect in hypothyroidism is resistance to the lipolytic effects of adrenaline.
So thyroid and adrenaline are not antagonistic, they work in concert to regulate fat burning. When thyroid is low, the body becomes resistant to adrenaline and thus makes it hard to lose fat with any of the "mechanical" methods like exercise or fasting, whereas that becomes much easier when the thyroid is functioning well – But, fat loss is still mediated by adrenaline and will always require some manner of increasing adrenaline action, whether that is by exercise, fasting or by consuming sucrose. Hell, when the body wants to spontaneously lose fat, like because of overfeeding or because you started doing interval sprints, it probably does it by increasing adrenaline output or sensitivity.
That's my take on it anyway. Adrenaline isn't the enemy. It is rather, like Schwarzbein said, central in mobilizing the energy required just to carry on with your everyday life and feel alive. I mean, the ultimate metabolism wasn't called "The Adrenal Type" for nothing.
hey grass fed momma,
what are you doing for exercise these days? walks and yoga? i am feeling the yoga these days… harder than it looks, though! i'm leaning towards your kinda diet too… i need some fat but i like my bananas too!
yes sorry real will didnt mean to imply that or put words in your mouth. just ment to add my 2 cents about fruit and fasting.
but i think that is a misconception that fasting is a cronic stress. fasting for short times like half the day insted of eating all day but eating all your food in 1 or 2 big meals is not a stress on our body. its natural and our body is fine as long as its gettin enuff food and nutreints. like collden said dont take it so far and combine it with stupid shit like low carb or low calory and shit. (good points in your post collden)
we think we need to figer out how our body works and eat this but avoid that. trigger this or that. but we dont need ot know how our body works. our body know best and nature knows best. obay your body and obay nature. our body doesnt need our help in regulating or balencing hormones. all we need to do is give it enuff good food from nature and it will take care of things from there.
and the only food we shoud avoid is unwhole unreal shit (wont call it food cuz it aint).
oh and also tons of endurence exersise is bad and does cause stress on our body wether you fast or not but both is even worse.
Really interesting points, Collden.
OK, so here are my two burning questions. Matt mentioned in a comment somewhere up there that this series of diet experiments is freed from the constraints of 'what ancient man ate must be what we should eat'-type thinking. I think this is great, and that it's one of the most interesting aspects of the experiment. However, I also wonder (and this touches on the 'belief/placebo' discussion also) whether we _can_ divorce our diet from our environment/what's available/what our families eat, etc (god knows I have performed this divorce a number of times but it sure can make things difficult).
My second question: in light of the general thrust toward improving thyroid function, and the current threat of nuclear radiation (maybe less real for you guys on the east coast), I'm wondering what whole-food-based strategies folks around here would recommend to make sure that one's thyroid is being the best possible shield and processor of radioactive particles. Particularly curious about what people think about fat and its uses–whether it's more likely to concentrate crap in the tissues or is essential to eat because it can transport crap out.
Will's experience with fasting and "high volume weight training" together, is a perfect example of what I was saying about context. One could use his story to argue that IF is not good for you because, apparently, it caused all those negative things (for him). But like I said, that kind of exercise is a chronic stress on the body, especially if doing it in a fasted state daily (which would be like starvation). Which IMO is what caused him all those problems.
I agree that fasting for a short time is natural and not stressful to the body, with adequate daily nutrition/food/calories. Fasting for long periods, like days or weeks at a time, IMO would be starvation – which is a stress on the body. And that's probably what Will's body was going through and reacting badly to – starvation not fasting.
Hey wheezy:
Here's my usual exercise:
Most mornings: an hour walk with pooch and podcasts, occasional un scheduled jogging. really slow jogging :)
Monday/Weds/Friday one hour of heavy weights in varying styles in class format, meaning it's about 35 mins of actual lifting, some warmups, some abs some stretching. I like the friendships and the music, it helps me do more than I would alone.
Tues: one hour of yoga, again in a class, love my teacher
Saturday: either one hour bike ride, then one hour run/job with my bff (therapy) or just the one hour run. I used to do a weights class after all this, but cut that out as too much in one day.
Sunday: rest, some biking to the farmers market, about an easy twenty minute ride
I try to stretch out and do more yoga on my own. Sometimes I do the mini rebounder or throw around some kettlebells if the above does not happen. I really could use more stretching overall.
That's it. And trust me, It is not always possible to do this stuff.
I know some may judge me as over exercising. My leukemia is of the type that clogs up the lymph system. The ONLY way to move lymph is via movement. It 'takes out the trash' and gets the lymph moving. After four years of having this, I am still at stage zero so I feel that moving a lot does help that happen and help keep the white cells at bay.
I could be wrong of course. I am humbled by the body, it's a magnificent and confusing system that no man can really master. Just get a toothache and you will get my point.
love to all
haggis
By the way, I meant to mention/ask this in my inquiry about what Matt said about meal frequency/IF and his referring to the Keys study (which I don't see the connection because that study was about starvation not IF)…
Anyway, not only does that study (about affects of starvation) not support what I believe to be a "misconception" that IF has negative affects. But I have never seen or heard about ANY study that does – in the appropriate context, of course – comparing apples to apples. And leaving exercise out of it. Exercise causes its own stress and negative affects that shouldn't be confused with or blamed on IF.
Has anyone seen such a study?
On the other hand, from my own experience and observing others, I've only seen positives from IF (done properly with sufficient nutrition) and I've seen no negatives.
Not saying IF is best or right for everyone. But I have not seen ANY evidence to support the notion that it has negative affects. And trust me, I've tried to find such evidence – especially when people like Matt, whom I trust, says it.
I really would like to know of any studies/evidence about any negative affects of IF. Anyone?
comparing PUFA from veg oils and proper food. peat has a line on his site about pork/horse meat consumption (and distance from equator) and greater incidence of MS, and therefore probably many other things. it could be for other reasons but i'd guess it is the pufas. his view is that all pufas are the same.
besides there isn't really much pufas available in the wild around the equator. humans get them from either planting stuff themselves or going north, away from their ideal environment, where just because the food is natural doesn't make it ideal i.e fatty pufa animals.
about the maasai and their plaque, i think they are like the inuits. they have a diet and it works pretty well for them but its not perfect. meat and milk, salmon, caribou?, they are extreme diets. they work well enough if done properly but dont necessarily give you perfect health.
Honestly, I believe that you have to look at the big picture. Obviously, IF works for many people. World's oldest man Walter Breuning, Martin Berkhan from Leangains…I read about these folks all the time. During my time with IF, I was doing it every single day. I also was a member of the IF Forum where, not only were there a bunch of regular folks like me, but there were a bunch of the researchers that were doing the studies on IF. The one researcher only did IF 2x a week, IIRC. Maybe he realized that it should be more intermittent than every day. The only conclusion that I can come up with relates to Hans Selye and the body's ability to adapt to stress. Some stress is necessary…it is required for the body to adapt. Hans Selye said "without stress there is death."
Interesting, Will, thanks for that info. I agree, gotta look at big picture = context :)
I know people who only IF once or twice a week too – cause they don't have much extra bodyfat. I believe 'daily' IF should only be done by people who have extra bodyfat to lose. If there's no extra bodyfat to use for energy, then the body will be forced to use lean tissue = not good = triggers starvation response and the negative affects of that. So goes back to context. When there's plenty of bodyfat available, IF is not stressful, but IF can be stressful on the body when there's no bodyfat (starvation) and can have negative affects.
And I agree that some stress is needed, in general, as part of the body's survival system as a whole.
@Deb, Just wanted to say you're really inspirational. It's great that you have such a great outlook on life and have kept your body healthy. I'm sure a huge part of it is your positive thinking, as well as listening to your body. Glad your body composition is finally working for you, too.
-Amy
ya Im not convinsed fastings bad ether. if fastings bad then you better stop sleepin 8+ hrs a nite. or you better set a alarm to wake you up to eat at leest 1 time thru the nite. if fastings bad then the advise to get 8 hrs sleep evry nite must be all rong. man may be thats how we all got sick and fat we been sleepin to much and goin to long with out food evry day and fuckin up our hormones???
new anon we all have fat resurves for that perpose extra fat or not so we can go short times fine. its goin long times like you said days weeks (takin things to far) that cause prolems. but ya fasting alittle evry day works grate if you want to lose extra fat.
short fasting time is a natural proccess to our body and our orgins needs and uses for other proccesses like detox cleaning house repair rest and recharge and more.
*and yes deb is a insperration and all ways makes me smile and some times laff when she comments. keep doin yor thing girly!
Argg.. Comments keeps getting deleted..
you can't compare fasting through the day with fasting during sleep. the body is in a different state. search for "sleep" on peats site for more
thanks terpol i knew some one woud say some thing like that and i all most said some thing about that above. but yes you are rite a wake fasting and sleep fasting are diff. but the point was if you think our body cant deal with fasting and dont beleve it actuly needs or uses fasting think about wile we sleep.
also the slow mode state our body is in wile a sleep is less optimal than a wake fasting state for proccesses for rebilding and soforth. fasting is benifical.
Amy Anonymous: Aw, thanks so much for that compliment! I have to give props to all my teachers, including Mr. Stone and the Peaty one of course :) I am a life long student, still learning every darn day.
1ofus:
I am always happy to make people smile whilst aiming for a laugh. I would do standup but the hours suck and I don't drink or smoke.
xo
love
deb hag grass fed something or other
What is the P.A.C.E. workout? Is it like HITT? Does it work?
Thanks,
Vida
Vida, see Matt's blog post about PACE here:
http://180metabolism.com/blog/?p=109