My experiences after going on a two-week vegan escapade couldn’t be more reaffirming of the general conclusions that I’ve come to over my several years of study. It’s certainly worth sharing and pondering now that I’ve had some time to let the whole experience digest.
Although I certainly enjoyed stirring things up in the low-carb community, pointing out many of the ways in which low-carb dogma is an oversimplification of human biology, I am left with little doubt that damage is done while pursuing vegan diets. Of course, I haven’t doubted this for years ? and have relegated such diets to short-term fasts at the most.
But consider my typical dieter’s consequences after doing the nutritarian-vegan thing:
1) It took me 14 days to lose 5.5 pounds, and 6 days to gain it back. I actually went on to gain 22 pounds in less than 60 days, my weight peaking about 13 pounds above its all-time high at 194.5 pounds. Continuing to eat to appetite on a mixed diet this weight has slowly been peeling off at about 2 pounds per month since January 1. Current weight 187 pounds – 7.5 pounds lost in the first 4 months of the year. My weight changes have patterned weight changes during and after calorie-restriction to perfection.
2) My skin is worse on my regular diet now than it was before going on a vegan diet.
3) I am more interested in alcohol after the vegan diet than I was before it ? where I didn’t think about alcohol, much less drink it for months prior (increase in addictive eating behavior).
4) I am far more constipated after the vegan diet than I was before it. Only now are my bowels re-achieving perfection.
5) My appetite has been simply off the charts. This was particularly true for the first couple of days, but I fixed this by obeying my hunger.
The only true improvement that is better after the vegan diet is my digestion of beans and fiber in general. I did have some bloating attributable to my slower-moving post-vegan bowels for the first 5-7 days, but all is well now.
I do deeply regret not having better pre-vegan blood glucose data though. After overfeeding for about ten days now, my glucose response is almost superhumanly low. I’ve been focusing mostly on postprandial glucose response. My insulin sensitivity is so high it’s almost hard to believe.
My lowest test yet was in response to my breakfast this morning. I consumed roughly 2 cups of brown rice (cooked volume), ? stick of butter, 3 whole eggs, a handful each of spinach, snow peas, and mushrooms ? and my 1-hour postprandial was 86 mg/dl. Not too shabby.
The other day, on a similar meal ? 6 ounce hamburger patty (73% lean, which is extremely fatty) with heavily-buttered mashed potatoes and spinach cooked in bacon grease I had only reached 91 mg/dl at the 1-hour post-meal mark.
The highest test I’ve had was a 114 mg/dl test after gobbling up 3 big slices of pepperoni pizza (refined carbohydrate, hint hint).
These meals aren’t terribly different in calories or macronutrients from my infamous Famous Dave’s eating spree following two vegan weeks. However, eating vegan for two weeks prior gave me a glucose response of 170-something, a number I suspect I’m incapable of reaching after being back on my normal diet for a while.
So you be the judge. Is a vegan diet good because I had low fasting glucose levels? Or is it sinister for causing me to have a poorer glucose response to normal food?
I think it’s probably just like calorie restriction. You lose weight, you feel good at first, your digestion is better, your skin is clearer, you have verifiable improvements in disease markers ? but returning to normal food seems to be almost catastrophic. And you will, of course, return to normal food because you crave it more and more by the day just like I did while eating vegan.
Vegan diet = appearance of success in the short-term and detriment in the long-term (but I’m sure it beats the typical SAD of Coke, candy bars, ice cream, cookies, and doughnuts combined with an otherwise wholesome diet.
The vegan diet has one and only purpose, and that is to provide relief for very serious, imminent, and urgent health conditions. And just because it may in many cases achieve results, doesn’t mean that it is the most prudent strategy, or the only strategy, to enhance health. Any form of fasting will have similar results, including food-combining, bariatric surgery, and more.
Sorry little fella…
Hi completely new to these forums but have been devouring them and matt's book on metabolism and links to other blogs for the past 4 days…. My nameis joanna from france and i find all this stuff very refreshing after years of undereating (around 30) and recently low carbing. Over the past 6-12 months I have been into the primal blubeprint and while i find it a very balanced lifestyle i still find my metabolism screwed and don't like the fear of starch which was never a problem in my ancestors diet so here i am wanting to earn and heal my metabolism.
I have a question though as I think I am insulin resistant i was thinking of starting with a week of high carb as i have seen matt recommend on the site but i just read today's blog and see the negative results of his vegan experiment. so what is the difference and would it not be a good idea to start with 4 or 5 days high carb?
4 or 5 days is probably no big deal. If you've been carb-deprived I believe that the surge of available glucose will be very stimulating to the metabolism.
Two weeks was just too long for me to be on a vegan diet, especially as a young person used to eating a very nutritious and energy-dense diet.
I also believe that a 4-5 day carb binge will improve your overall glucose metabolism, preparing you for eating a "high-everything" diet without rampant and uncomfortable weight gain.
Anyway, welcome again Joanna. Glad to have you. Hope we can help solve the root of those problems – a poor metabolism.
Matt said:
Although I certainly enjoyed stirring things up in the low-carb community, pointing out many of the ways in which low-carb dogma is an oversimplification of human biology,
Yes I saw some of the wake you left behind. :-)
What I am beginning to notice is that some of the low carb/paleo community, which is filled with some very smart people, are giving a wink and nod to evidence which contradicts some of the oversimplification of the low carb dogma, but then move on as if nothing was said.
I sense a split and shift on the horizon as many folks discover that low carb is not the diet but one choice among many.
Not sure how it is going to play out but one excellent health blogger recently referred to Mark Sisson's post (of Mark's Daily Apple) on why grains are not necessary as her choice for "B.S. of the week" for advocating unnecessary dietary restriction.
I am left with little doubt that damage is done while pursuing vegan diets. Of course, I haven’t doubted this for years ? and have relegated such diets to short-term fasts at the most.
In my opinion it is the rare healthy person who can get away with a long term vegan diet unless it is loaded with saturated fat, and I'm not even quite sure about that.
I think it’s probably just like calorie restriction. You lose weight, you feel good at first, your digestion is better, your skin is clearer, you have verifiable improvements in disease markers ? but returning to normal food seems to be almost catastrophic. And you will, of course, return to normal food because you crave it more and more by the day just like I did while eating vegan.
Well as I have said for years, any fool can fast, it is the breaking of the fast that is real art in order to avoid what you mention above. And food fasting creates a very different challenge than liquid fasting when it comes to breaking the fast.
The vegan diet has one and only purpose, and that is to provide relief for very serious, imminent, and urgent health conditions. And just because it may in many cases achieve results, doesn’t mean that it is the most prudent strategy, or the only strategy, to enhance health.
From a physical standpoint I would have to agree, although I can see and have seen it used effectively in less serious instances (though admittedly that was liquid fasting, not food fasting).
Michael
Nutrition and Physical Regeneration
I've seen it recommended that if you have Leaky Gut syndrome, or an autoimmune disease, you should go for at least six months with little or no animal protein to help your digestive system heal. Supposedly if you're getting enough calories, you're getting enough protein. What are your thoughts on this, Matt? Thanks.
Meighen
Michael,
Thanks again for your comments. They are always welcome, insightful, and well thought out. I don't just like what you have to say because we are in general agreement on most things. You, like I, take a broad spectrum of ideas into consideration and find a way to integrate them. From Dr. Shulze to Stefannson, each set of ideas has its own values and merits while providing clues to a comprehensive understanding of the whole picture.
Meighen,
I'm all about healing the gut when such a thing is necessary, and I do support such radical and aggressive nutritional strategies. Whether animal product exlusion would achieve that is questionable, but you never know. A really low-fiber diet could probably pull that off too. Plus, 6 months is not exactly a lifetime. I mean, look at guys like Fuhrman or Shulze or Doug freakin' Graham. They may not be the ideal portraits of health but they haven't exactly dropped dead from avoiding animal products for decades.
"I've seen it recommended that if you have Leaky Gut syndrome, or an autoimmune disease, you should go for at least six months with little or no animal protein to help your digestive system heal."
or another perspective to Matt:
You could eat vegetarian/vegan fare for a 6 months or more, find you are getting weaker, and generally less 'well', add all sorts of nutitional supplements to the diet to do it "the right way", visit any number of alternative practioners with a bent for non-animal eating, with the aim of trying to make a dietary protocol that for many just leads one further into a voretx of fragility.
Yes, it may work for some folk, but probably those individuals are far fewer than some will lead you to believe.
Or, you could eat animal protein judiciously.
chlOe, In one of your previous posts you said that the saliva test for Cortisol levels is not considered very accurate. I was just reading Schwarzbein's Principles 2 and she claims the exact opposite. As I'm considering getting that test for myself I'd love to know why you think poorly of it.
I also believe that a 4-5 day carb binge will improve your overall glucose metabolism, preparing you for eating a "high-everything" diet without rampant and uncomfortable weight gain.
Could you talk more about the 4-5 day carb binge? I experienced that rampant and uncomfortable weight gain, and backed off. Any specific recommendations – what would that look like for a breakfast? Just to be clear – HED is high everything except sugar, caffeine, alcohol, processed/artificial foods?
Hi Matt,
I've been on a Matt Stone binge for the last week or so, reading your blog archive and eBook. Love love love. And I really appreciate the funny.
My health is totally messed up — chronic fatigue syndrome, multiple chronic infections, gluten intolerant so probably leaky gut, hormones zig-zagging all over the place. I was doing SCD/Weston Price which seemed like the right thing intellectually but I had to admit I was feeling shittier and shittier.
So reading your description of fructose malabsorption leading to a serotonin surge leading to receptor shut down — PING! the lightbulb turned on. With all the SCD restrictions, I had been eating a LOT of apples. When I cut those out, no more foul moods.
I've been doing HED for a week. Vast happy quantities of butter, raw milk, sour cream. Lost 3 pounds, which is not the problem I'm trying to solve but makes me laugh to see how horribly wrong the calorie restriction people are. My basal temp is low; I don't break 98 all day, even orally and even taking Nature-Throid. So I'm really hoping your theory works out and my engine starts revving. I've been sick for years and I want this to END.
Anyway, hello and thanks.
Mike from the West,
I've been using saliva tests from Diagnos-Techs to measure adrenal function for years (I'm on low-dose hydrocortisone per Jefferies). It's worked really well for me. My understanding i that for most hormones, saliva tests are much much better than blood.
Hi Nell,
Wow, your symptoms exactly match my husbands. His testing showed severe mineral deficiency, adrenal exhaustion, leaky gut syndrome and severe food allergies. Post how it goes trying HED and good luck!
Ingrid –
Lots of oatmeal, fruit, juice, potatoes, etc. Just go crazy, then real it in as you get on a "HED," which yes, should be high in everything except addictive substances such as refined sugar, lots of sweets of any kind – caloric or non-caloric, alcohol, caffeine, and anything else you feel particularly hooked on. Chips and bread can sometimes be addictive for people as well. Emphasize whole, real foods.
Nell –
Awesome to have you. I was a littel shocked when I first learned of the SCD. The thought of giving a bunch of honey and fruit to Autistic kids (the context in which I first heard about it) with exclusion of blood sugar-stablizing starches sounded like one hell of a roller coaster ride – especially knowing that Autistic kids are all bound to be hypometabolic and have resulting bacterial overgrowth (SIBO) and hypoglycemia.
I'm willing to be that you fare far better with a starchy, low-sugar diet based around corn, potatoes, and rice. Plus, you've gotta get that temperature up, one way or another – hopefully through eating and without having to go the nutraceutical route with glandulars and what not.
Anonymous – You said it with "vortex of fragility." Mind if I use that phrase in my work? It's awesome. It's perfect. It's something any person who's tried various restricted diets in an attempt to improve health can relate to.
Build strength, not weakness baby.
Oh, wait a second. Post-breakfast glucose testing time…
91 mg/dl again.
This after 100 grams carbs
45 grams protein
75 grams fat
Another side of spinach and mushrooms
Call it 1,300 calories.
This was my 2nd breakfast I should add. I'm eating like a Hobbit right now.
Hi Matt
Just wanted to know when you are testing your post prandial? Is is 1, 1.5, 2 hours after your first bite? Especially with high fat, you may not be peaking for awhile (say 2-3 hours maybe?). Just suggesting that after breakfast tomorrow, (take one before you eat too!) you test at 1/2 hour after, 1 hour after 1.5 etc to see your curve, if any. I know you are not diabetic, so not sure how this applies to your metabolism. Just wanted to put in my 2 cents. Love all your experiments by the way!
Do you think HED works for someone who has learned they already have diabetes? Anyone with experience? Or are they doomed to a very low carb diet?
Anonymous – You said it with "vortex of fragility." Mind if I use that phrase in my work?
Matt, of course, no worries.
Not to denigrate your research fetish, but – for me – your turn of phrase is far more seductive.
Diana –
I've been testing at least 1 hour after my last bite, not my first.
This is the same way I tested the other day after eating a high-everything meal with pork ribs (and hit 176), eating half of a large pizza with beer – also high in fat (123), and lately with high-fat and protein, high-unrefined carb breakfasts in which I hit 86, 91, and 91 the last few days.
No, I'm not diabetic, but people do not become diabetic overnight. Plus, type 2 diabetes is just a number gauging the level of insulin resistance (except for those with beta cell burnout not producing enough insulin). The best way to prevent diabetes is to track rising blood sugars and take action early – experiment using strategies that may increase insulin sensitivity (which drops blood sugars back to normal).
First a person has a fasting glucose of 85, then 90, then 95, then 100, then 105, then 110, then 115, then 120, then 125. At 125 the doctor says "you've got diabetes." But a person at 90 or 95 is "getting" diabetes, and it's much easier to halt and reverse it at 95 than it is at 125, 150, 200, or whatever the fasting level is when a type 2 first gets diagnosed.
Mae –
I don't believe a type 2 has to eat either a low-carb or low-fat diet to keep from being diabetic. I do believe that a diabetic might be able to lower blood sugars just like I am now. I'm not convinced. No study will ever be done to test it, as overfeeding a diabetic probably wouldn't pass the ethics test – you can't even feed these guys eggs without having the study shut down. But I certainly think it's possible. Keep your fingers crossed.
>especially knowing that Autistic kids are all bound to be hypometabolic and have resulting bacterial overgrowth (SIBO) and hypoglycemia.
Oh yeah, for sure. My 11 yo son is recovered from autism, actually. Diagnosed with Asperger's and PDD-NOS at 5, but lost the dx by age 7 thanks to diet changes, enzymes, chelation, antivirals. So no more autism, but he's still a little hypometabolic, as you say — low muscle tone, cold all the time, etc.
I'm trying to get as much food in him as I can, but keeping an 11 yo away from sugar is Not Easy. Well, impossible. It's really incredible, the onslaught of terrible food kids are confronted with at school and other people's houses. I just went to my son's soccer game and a mom brought Barbequed Pringles, Oreos, and bright blue Gatorade for their snack. What happened to cut up oranges?? My kid ends up going hungry too often because what's offered is so nasty.
As for glandulars, I've been on them for years out of deep necessity. I have had periods of better health and energy, and been able to decrease them on the way to weaning off, and that's what I'm hoping HED will help with. I'm also on low-dose antibiotics (the Brown Protocol) for mycoplasma and chlamydia infections. I'm sure my gut will cheer the day I can stop taking those.
Ingridknits,
Thanks! I'll be reporting in, whatever happens….but so far so good.
Hey Matt, for your next dietary experiment, I suggest the FURP diet. RP stands for Ray Peat. Eat tons of natural high-PUFA foods like salmon, tuna, sardines, chicken, turkey, walnuts, brazil nuts, etc, together with lots of starch. High-SFA foods (coconuts, dairy, and ruminant meat) are not allowed.
I did my first high carb only day yesterday and decided to start with just fruits (i will add starches). I was hungry and eating all day, had about 10 bowel movements instead of the usual one on low carb… I haven't eaten fruit in so long so it tastes sooo sweet. I also went cold turky on artificial sweetners and coffee, and by far the hardest thing is the coffee, no headaches but very tired and slept terrbily and achy. Probably should have held off on quitting these addictions til i get into the HED.
Hey Matt,
Love those postprandial readings! Are you still taking fasting blood sugars? Do share.
Matt this is slightly off subject. I know you eat a LOT of butter but what about GHEE (clarified butter). I just made a batch and love its taste. Any comments?
Instead of a FURP diet I would love to see Matt doin a Ray peat diet.
I tried his simple sugar plus a lot of SFA concept a while ago.
I felt not to bad, had good bloodsugars (78 in the morning) and decent bloodlipids.
But I finally went back to eating a lot of natural starches instead of all the fruits and gummy bears.
It just feels right and better to have few potatos or rice to put your butter on…
Matt, have your ever experimented with this Ray peat thing in recent years?
I'd like to do a full "Sweet Peat" diet someday to check it out. I'm already on a bit of a FURP diet (love the sound a that one!), as I eat craploads of pork, chicken, nuts and seeds, and my fair share of restaurant food on a low sugar/high starch diet). I'd have to believe it so see it, especially with ice cream, which I'd rate out as a pretty harmful food (refined carbs with dairy fat killed McCarrison's animal subjects faster than white rice alone – as if it kept the metabolism higher and exacerbated nutrient deficiencies in a shorter time period, which is exactly why I think refined carbs + good, wholesome calorie-rich food = worst diet in the world).
Jedi –
Some people do better going cold turkey, but I do think it's better to eat well first, then worry about your addictions.
Rmarie –
Ghee is great. I even describe how to make it from butter in 180 Kitchen.
Helen –
Been focusing more on postprandials, but I'll get some fasting levels too later this month. You know I'm gonna test after Thanksgiving dinner too!
Jannis states,
"But I finally went back to eating a lot of natural starches instead of all the fruits and gummy bears."
Where on earth does Ray Peat recommend eating that way? Frankly, it sounds like a perversion of his basic concepts: low PUFA–around 2% to 4% of calories; lots of saturated fats (especially SUFA), adequate protein, he recommends at least 100 grams for an active individual; simple sugars in the form of fruits and juice; and starch in the form of rice and potatoes. This seems to be the basic's of his dietary recommendation based on my reading- if others have a different understanding, you are welcome to disillusion me.
I will say this though…If one cares to read his articles and what he and his followers advocate, it is clear that junk food, such as gummy bears, is not something he promotes. Yes, he seems to eat a fair amount of ice cream, but that is not the same as him recommending that others do the same.
I were actually pretty much eating the way you just said.
Approx. 100g of Protein a day mostly from lean meat and dairy products.
The saturated fat in form of coconout oil and butter. And my carbs in form of fruit juices, very little amounts of potatos…well and some gummy bears here and there.
And i also supplemented some gelatine in order to have balanced aminos.
I think peat recommends very little amounts of starches. I remember reading that he believes that starches can promote cancer and that he therefore avoids them for the most part.
For the gummy bears. I didn't mean to say that peat recommends a diet full of junk food. As I said I only ate little amounts of them.
But I ate them because I once read a short interview with peat where he said that of all sweets he would only recommend ice cream and gummy bears. Gummy bears because they have an unproblematic list of ingredients and are mainly made of sugar and gelatine.
I'm not an expert in peat's diet. I just followed a few of his recommendations. Maybe that wasn't exactly a "Ray Peat Diet".
But i still think it comes close to it.
As far as I know Peat doesn’t like starch because a study of mice (or rats?) that were fed raw starch. That raw starch damaged the intestines. I would suspect that doesn’t happen with humans eating cooked starch. Are there any Peat-experts who could elaborate on Peat’s view on starch?
Sven,
Ray Peat doesn't like grain starches based on the rat study, although it most be observed that the study used raw starch. He seems to be okay with lime treated corn, though.
As for as I can tell he has nothing against rice and potatoes as long as they do not constitute the majority of carbohydrate one's carb consumption. In other words, as far as I can discern, starches are not problematic as long as they are not the primary source of ones carb consumption.
In fact, in his article "Glycemia, starch and sugar in context" he has this to say:
"There isn't anything wrong with a high carbohydrate diet, and even a high starch diet isn't necessarily incompatible with good health, but when better foods are available they should be used instead of starches. For example, fruits have many advantages over grains, besides the difference between sugar and starch." This implies that he views sugars in the form of fruit and juices to be superior to starch, especially grain starch. However, he concedes that a high starch diet can be healthy.
It must be noted that Peat doesn't give specific dietary recommendation in his articles, at least as far as I can determine. I think the best way to find out is to ask someone that is trustworthy and knowledgeable, such as Chloe or Harper. Another way is to communicate with him directly, which I may do, because the more I read him, the more sense he makes.
P.S. I feel the same way about Matt. I have Matt's recommendations to thank for my vastly improved health. Thank you, Matt!
Ack,
Where it says:… "majority of carbohydrate one's carb consumption." It should just read:…"majority of ones carbohydrate consumption."
In fact, that whole second paragraph could do with a rewrite, but "oh well"…
DML –
Peat does specifically recommend eating ice cream in his one-on-one consults for guru-ey sounding things like "cleansing out the bowels."
I too like Peat a lot. And he is a very thorough researcher with a lot of integrity.
But mouse study with raw starch having something to do with humans, the animal with the greatest production of salivary amylase, that always eats starch in cooked form, and who always chose starchy staples to form a large percentage of the diet when available?
Gummi bears and ice cream?
Peat causes me to raise (Rays) an eyebrow every once in a while.
Hey Matt,
Love the blog. Met you briefly at the Wise Traditions conference in VA (don't think I was one of the twisted sugar-holics…I'm all about the butter and liver ;))
…anyway, I was thinking about this Fathead post with an article describing bariatric surgery as the new solution for diabetics – maybe they should just do the FUDA and save on hospital expenses?
Thanks for the awesome dialogue, and please keep it up!
http://www.fathead-movie.com/index.php/2009/11/05/bariatric-surgery-for-diabetes-oh-cut-it-out/
What a great resource!
Matt,
You don't really mention exactly what you ate on your vegan diet. There is such a thing as an unhealthy vegan diet, and there is also a healthy vegan diet. For example, potato chips would be considered "vegan." I've met plenty of vegans and vegetarians that are extremely healthy, and plenty that are not.
There is no healthy vegan diet. Period.
That claim is just ridiculous and by no means justifiable. How would you ever meet your Vitamin B12 and Vitamin A requirements? And that's just the tip of the iceberg.
It was the "perfect" vegan diet by almost any measurement. No refined foods whatsoever. Lots of greens, raw foods, legumes, freshly-ground whole grains, and so on.
There are only 2 kinds of vegans. The kind that has already been devastated by eating a vegan diet, and the kind that hasn't been devastated by a vegan diet… yet.
In any case, a vegan diet is very extreme and very risky. It's exactly the kind of diet that I hope to take out to the woodshed.
Vitamin A, am I missing something? Does our body not utilize vitamin A in vegetables? For the record, I'm not a vegan myself, but was just curious about your scientific experiment. So B12 supplements don't work? Nutritional yeast? Seaweed?
oh, and forgot, what about alfalfa sprouts for b12?
Those are B-12 analogs. Not true B-12 like that found in animal foods.
But that is really beside the point. Bottom line is, people degenerate on vegan diets long-term, supplemented or not.
And yes, you probably don't need provitamin A. Carotenes are sufficient for most, but some people do fail to convert and really do need pre-formed vitamin A only found in animal foods.
"I also believe that a 4-5 day carb binge will improve your overall glucose metabolism, preparing you for eating a "high-everything" diet without rampant and uncomfortable weight gain.
Could you talk more about the 4-5 day carb binge?"
Looks like I read this too late – I jumped right on the HED as described in the Metabolism e-book and have gained 5 pounds in the last week. This is after 1.5 years on Atkins, so I'm not surprised, but very very sad to have an extra 5 lbs. all of which seems to have gone to my gut.
Would it do me any good, do you think, to start over with a carb-fest, and then go back to HED? I've definitely noticed a difference in my overall health – my hands and feet are not cold all the time and my energy level is up. But the gaining weight thing is highly disturbing, especially at this rate.
I hope somebody has some advice – I don't want to give up, but I also can't afford to go buy a whole new wardrobe. High quality fats are expensive, I'm finding. Plus I'm trying to feed 3 growing boys and 1 (also metabollicaly (?) damaged by Atkins) grown man in as healthy a way as I can – that's a lot of fat and protein to buy.
Thanks to Matt and everybody for all the information and discussion. My warmer fingers and toes appreciate it.
I'm with you Danyelle. 8lbs in 10 days on HED. My temps are still low (and I've been taking thyroid meds for years) but I have more energy, etc.
BUT I too cannot afford new clothes at this point!
You might be better off keeping fat levels lower and bringing them up as desired. Or you can alter between high-carb/low-fat days and High-fat low/carb days until you get some of the high calorie benefits without the weight gain.
But I think I would prefer the higher carb approach for a long-time low-carber. You can probably get an extra boost from the low-fat side just by keeping omega 6 extremely low – a difficult task on a higher fat diet.
Another idea would be to do "HED" overfeeding only in short bursts. Such as doing it for a week, and then taking a couple weeks off to let your weight come back down a pound or two before repeating again.
Share whatever tricks you discover to get all the benefits so many describe without the weight gain. That would be some trick no doubt. Who knows, maybe just one day of overfeeding per week such as that used by Scott Abel is enough to get the metabolic benefits. Much remaining to be explored no doubt.
One thing is for sure though, losing lean body mass on a 2-week vegan diet really encouraged rapid fat deposition for me personally.
In May, before overexercising all summer and doing a vegan diet, I could not reach 180 pounds on HED, no matter how much I tried to stuff down. After dropping body temp. by 1.5 degrees overexercising and losing lean mass on a vegan diet HED sent my weight to a peak of 194.5 Fortunately I'm back down to 188.5 and am very resistant to further fat gains.
Expect a loss of another 10 pounds in the next several months.
Matt, I've been considering using a periodic HED refeed like you suggest, and otherwise following more of a Lyle McDonald Rapid Fat Loss (modified PSMF) approach, though I have such negative associations with the man and the feelings of deprivation his diet elicits that I don't know if I could keep it up for long.
It seems to make sense (weekly carb refeeds and cheat meals) though it requires sacrifice to stick to. Perhaps there's some optimal calorie/carb/fat cycling approach that is flexible enough that one doesn't need to carry around a scale and a calculator? Maybe that's the Holy Grail?
What do you think of going low fat/high carb one day and high fat/low carb the next, on an alternate day cycle? Too quick?
I've heard alternating like that can be very effective, and you still get a great many calories and don't exclude any important food group. As always, your guinea-piggyness is welcomed.
No calculators involved. Rather, I think you'd go high carb/low fat until you really started craving some meat or feeling a little hyper and strung out from it – at which point I'd eat huge slabs of meat until you felt sick of that… then repeat.
But all the bodybuilder types swear by certain protocols when it comes to carb cycling, refeeding, and such. I suspect, from an overall health standpoint, to get the best results with a minimal downside you'd be better off not going to extremes on either side of the spectrum, and listening to the timing of your own cravings.
One thing I've noticed in my experimenting is that my body seems to be able to tolerate letting go of fat for about 6 days before the whole system grinds to a halt. On a water fast, that's when the weight loss plateaus and I get so tired and cold and hungry that I MUST EAT CARBS. As soon as I do, I feel fantastic.
Makes me think some sort of cycling is not only a good idea, but really necessary when trying to change body comp.
I would add that the starting point of my water fasting experiments was low-carb and thoroughly "cleansed", so I believe I was losing real body weight (fat and/or muscle), not "water weight".
I've grown progressively more scared of carbs ever since my first pregnancy 12 years ago, when my doctors put me on insulin for gestational diabetes. Thank God the diabetes cleared up post-partum. But soon after my son was born I noticed a definite tendency to hypoglycemia. I started the Carbohydrate Addict's Diet (no carbs all day until 1 meal in the evening which would be, basically, high-everything.) My hypoglycemia went away while on that diet. But it wasn't very practical so that fell away.
My next two pregnancies were also diabetic. I managed to avoid the insulin shots for the 2nd one, but was put back on it for the 3rd.
Anyway, I've read a lot about diabetes/insulin and all that, including Taubes, but I've never seen anything like you are recommending, Matt. I know you've talked about your postprandial blood glucose levels being completely awesome, but how did that happen? Is there a post you can refer me to that explains the mechanism?
I've decided to follow the advice about carbing it up until I crave some meat, but it's scary for me. I'll let you know how things are working out.
Oh, and just one more question: while high carbing, is the low fat necessary if I avoid all PUFAs? I mean can I make your truffle fries with coconut oil, which even though that would be high fat/high carb, would be extremely low in Omega 6? In other words, does it have to be low fat, or are we going for low O6? Thanks!
I felt good (and lost weight) carb cycling – I followed Jay Robb's "Fat-Burning Diet", the daily method. Two low-carb meals followed by a high (complex) carb meal. He talks about basal temperature, and encourages people to measure fat loss (to show its not water weight loss).
Overfeeding decreases insulin resistance. It's thought to be the opposite, but the conventional wisdom on that subject is way off.
Not only that, but just raising your body temperature will eliminate true hypoglycemia. Broda Barnes treated hypoglycemia very effectively that way and even wrote an entire book about it.
There are lots of ways to medicate hypoglycemia. Like eating a low-carb diet. But that worsens the core problem and doesn't afford true healing, which is being able to eat whatever the hell you want without having a hypoglycemic response.
You don't have to eat low fat, that was just proposed as an idea to jumpstart the reduction in omega 6 tissue concentration while avoiding the fat gain that often comes when you initially pair fat and carbs together in large quantities.
My biggest body composition improvements came during the first couple months of following Schwarzbein's program. I gained HUGE amounts of muscle and lost quite a bit of fat without any exercise whatsoever. Spontaneous muscle generation. Of course, this is the opposite of cycling, as she is a huge proponent of very tightly balanced meals with all macronutrients present.
The ultimate way to lose fat is typically a fairly low-carb diet, triggering the release of fat to your lean tissues, which spares them and kills your hunger. Too low in carbs and you don't get this effect to the same degree in my experience. But throwing a high carb day in once per week may be the best way to do low-carb, preventing plateaus and adaptation.
Jay Robb is certainly better than average when it comes to losing body fat.
@Matt Stone
The ultimate way to lose fat is typically a fairly low-carb diet, triggering the release of fat to your lean tissues, which spares them and kills your hunger. Too low in carbs and you don't get this effect to the same degree in my experience. But throwing a high carb day in once per week may be the best way to do low-carb, preventing plateaus and adaptation.
This is what Dr. Mauro Di Pasquale, the self-described father of low-carb cyclical dieting, recommended first for bodybuilders in The Anabolic Diet (now re-worked into the Anabolic Solution), and then re-written to accomodate everyone, The Metabolic Diet.
I wouldn't recommend most folks hang around his site(s) but the original general concept is clear enough. Low carb during the week and 1-2 days where you do the complete opposite, usually on the weekend. I liked it back in the day because it fit very nicely with my social scene/obligations.
have you ever done an olive oil liver cleanse?
i used to think they were bs until i did them.
that was the kicker that de-programmed me from the cult of vonderplanitz
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