Believe it or not, the 180DegreeHealth podcast makes its triumphant return today, November 9, EXACTLY 4 years since the last episode. That’s some hiatus! But the subject of vitamin A depletion as a potential dietary therapy for many conditions remains both too promising and intriguing to ignore. Today I chat with Dr. Garrett Smith about his thoughts and experiences with vitamin A thus far. He’s done a tremendous amount of research of late, deepening the understanding of key factors that increase and decrease a key molecule in the body known as “retinol-binding protein.” It’s some really great stuff, so listen carefully! Enjoy!
Get info about joining Dr. Smith’s vitamin A depletion case study group by contacting him via his website HERE, by emailing his office at: adminATnutritionrestored.com, or by phone at?+1 520-577-6888.
Follow new research postings of Dr. Smith’s HERE
next year you will be talking about vitamin c toxicity, then a year after that it will be vitamin e toxicity, do you see a pattern here? Matt, your early books on bizarre eating behaviors already explain vitamin a,c,d,e and k disruptions. Pounding down carrots, beets, quarts of milk, and red peppers will never pass the gut test. That said, a micro dose of these foods could help overall hormesis.
Yeah totally Dave.
Thats exactly what I was thinking too Dave. All the fear of foods drive me crazy after years of trying most of the health diets. My first thought after this is when will vit E become toxic or vit C?
Dr Smiths research and paranoia of Iron overload and now vitamin A toxicity (after years of promoting its importance)make me feel more confused. If I follow his advice that would eliminate several healthy foods I eat like animal organs, eggs, red meat and almost all dairy.
Return today….hmmm 9/11 interesting!!!!!
Wow. This is blowing my mind, and disturbing the hell out of me because I’ve been using supplemental vitamin A the last few years, and – surprise surprise – my health has been slowly deteriorating. Of course, with “Weston A Price” kind of thinking, I had been taking vitamin A and Vitamin D for a number of years. After Garrett publicized his research on Vitamin D, I dropped Vitamin D, but I continued to take Vitamin A. In this time (since 2015), I’ve really seen my health decline substantially. Initially, I was very skeptical about this information, but after listening to this podcast, I’m going to experiment with going on a low vitamin A diet.
It shouldn’t disturb you Sean. It’s almost all bullshit, and you can find out if you have high ‘a’ with a simple blood test.
The reason you did poorly on Weston Price was no doubt to their phobia of carbs and sugars. Everything is cod liver oil and bone broth, anyone could get too much ‘A’ with the former.
Here’s a study that shows high beta carotene levels are associated with LONGER lifespan.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6261515/
Blood tests don’t reveal high vitamin A levels, only liver biopsy. When the liver fills up excess A just gets shunted into other tissues and stored in body fat. For example, asthmatics have high levels in the lungs. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11502488/ Arthritics have high levels in their joints. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19479829/ And so on.
Hmm. Great research there Matty. The first study was ‘conjecture’, the other was an in vitro cell line. :)
Been trying to disprove the theory for years and I just can’t do it.
Matt I am following grants diet for two years now , great benefits and health is getting better and better
My case is more convincing to me as I overdosed on vitamins a supplements myself as opposed to someone who goes though slow toxicity due to food , latter seems to be difficult to spot
I just wanted to ask you if you are still with the vitamin a being toxic position ?
Thanks
Yep, 100% unfortunately. I’ve tried many times to eat a wide variety of foods containing vitamin A, and have even gone off the diet once for an entire month, more or less. But it gets me every time. Lungs start filling up with fluid. Random sneeze attacks. Itchy ears and elbows. Sore teeth and gums. I don’t know if I’d go so far as to call it a toxic poison outright, but for whatever reason I sure as hell can’t eat it. Maybe my liver sucks or it’s just full of A (along with my fat tissue), and any that I consume immediately gets into tissues like my lungs where it wreaks havoc. I don’t know. I do know that it sucks avoiding vitamin A, but that it sucks worse dealing with the consequences of eating it! I can still have a little from time to time though without doing any harm, so it’s not some horrible dietary prison like being a fruitarian or something, but it’s a challenge for a guy who had given up on healthy eating, lol.
Haha, you guys are so confused. His theories don’t stand up to scrutiny. Just remember the most healthy and longest living people, the Okinawans ate mostly Sweet Potatoes which are very high in Carotene.
Lol. Okinawans are the longest-lived people because they are the smallest people. Males average 4’11”. I’m sure Zion Williamson won’t live as long. I’d rather be Zion Williamson.
Also, they don’t eat orange sweet potatoes, nor do they eat “mostly” sweet potatoes. Also, no one gives a fuck about what some group of people eats. Good luck tackling your health problems trying to mimic some isolated ethnic group of people’s diet. That type of approach to health doesn’t work.
Some of the world’s tallest people have lived beyond the average American’s life expectancy so there is more to it than their shorter height. Okinawan populations actually did eat sweet potatoes more than anything, we can know this because the US military run it during 1949, if we take the time to check the national archives. Their diet was 85% carbs, 9% protein, 6% fat. Purple sweet potatoes was their staple. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mryzkO5QWWY What health problems? :)
“Some of the world’s tallest people have lived beyond the average American’s life expectancy so there is more to it than their shorter height.”
That is a completely scientifically irrelevant statement. That’s like saying that many Okinawans don’t make it to the average American’s life expectancy (which is true), so there’s more to it than that. No, there isn’t more to it. The difference in life span between ethnic groups, various populations, and females vs. males is mostly attributable to size differences. Nothing more.
You believe the Okinawans live longer because of their height, okay then explain how the younger generations in Okinawa are not getting the same health or longevity as their grandparents once did, they’re not growing taller, are they? their height means fuck all, it’s because their diets have changed, lol.
What about the other groups that display similar results in terms of health and longevity, for example, the 7th Day Adventists? They eat very similarly.
To believe plant foods are bad because of retinoids or fibre, or whatever else is to ignore the vast majority of the evidence out there, which is a lot. It’s like believing the earth is flat because of a few observations and conspiracy videos.
If anyone has issues with eating plant-based, I would consider these 3 gut health tests: urinary Organic Acids Testing (OAT), Small Intestinal Bacteria Overgrowth (SIBO) breath testing, and Comprehensive Stool analysis with parasitology. These 3 tests can triangulate the cause of many issues people may face when eating plant foods that can be fixed. Issues with bacteria overgrowth, salicylates, histamines, etc…
Yes, they are growing taller. Probably much taller. We’re about 5 inches taller than we were 150 years ago. Yes, that’s because of diet, mostly increased availability of calorie-dense foods.
Yes, 7th Day Adventists are smaller as well. And a diet with fewer calories and protein yields a smaller body size, and greater longevity at the expense of quality of life. Have you tried a vegetarian, vegan, or Okinawan diet? Fucking sucks man. I’ve tried every possible version of it that I can think of, and the results are always terrible. Even those who have great short-term results and become zealots and mini internet celebrities incur all manner of ills from it long-term. That it’s healthier is a complete farce. And mimicking little, weak people’s diets is a surefire way to feel and function worse. It has short-term therapeutic benefit for some ailments at best. Go easy on the Netflix documentaries bro.
As far as the 3 health tests, I have no problem with that. Seems reasonable to me. Doesn’t have any impact on whether or not modern humans have been overdosing on vitamin A, or whether or not some can benefit from purging it from their system. They can.
“Yes, they are growing taller. Probably much taller.”
Did you just make that up? or do you actually have research data to back your claims on their height increasing?
The average height in Japan is actually declining…
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2018/02/12/national/science-health/average-height-japanese-born-1980-later-declining-study-finds/
There has been an increase in height in almost every country over the last century. So, hence the word “probably.” 6 inch increase in Japan.
There are many other factors you need to take into consideration rather than discounting a theory just because a certain group ate high beta carotene foods and lived a long time.
Matt already pointed out one reason for the difference. Another is the germ connection; it appears retinoids are used by the immune system during its fight against pathogens. Traditional cultures living in the natural environment had a lot of exposure to pathogens. And so more retinoids would be used up. Now we have vaccines, antibiotics, and rather sterile environments which may result in us not be using retinoids at the same rate. Gut flora is also different due to diet and antibiotics which may also be a factor.
Other possibilities? Poor liver function in modern society slows down the ability to rid excess retinoids. Synthetic retinoids like retinyl palminate are now added to certain foods which may be much more problematic for the body than naturally occuring retinol and beta carotenes.
So if by not standing up to scrutiny, you mean the vitA theory is flawed because you found one population correlation that seems to contradict it without looking at the many reasons that might be the case,then sure. But it seems to me like you are just looking to prove to yourself why it can’t be true rather than looking at it with an open mind.
So if I’m dealing with Lyme disease, coinfections and retroviruses, I shouldn’t be toxic in Vit A, based on that thought? Or maybe this was the door to open such immune dysregulation in the first place?
Purple sweet potatoes are low vitamin A according to cronometer.
The okinawa sweet potatoes according to most of the articles I’ve read get their purple colour from anthocyanins. The same articles sometimes go on to say they are very high in vitamin a which I don’t think makes sense. If they get their colour from anthocyanins than you would expect them to be fairly low in vitamin a/beta carotene.
100 % agreed, Matt. The typical mainstream doctors have the wrong approach advising mimicking these isolated long lived cultures. Okinawans are indeed short and short people generally have the ability to live longer than huge , tall, or massive people. Okinawan males are very slight. I am trying to get my dad off tons of vitamin D supplements.
Explanation is the best approach.
And orange sweet potatoes contain NO vitamin A Matt. They contain beta-carotene, which is associated with longer lifespans.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6261515/
As tempting as it might be to eat something “associated with longer lifespans,” I’d rather base my eating decisions based on my own, thoroughly-tested needs. Thanks for the advice though! I remember when I used to dish out a bunch of health advice. Man, I felt so smart and powerful! You must be riding high coming here and cracking down on all this “nonsense!” haha
You started it Matt. And made a lot of people a LOT worse off with your “thoroughly tested” advice. haha
Definitely. As have almost all who have been arrogant enough to jump on the internet and start sharing health advice. Note, I don’t anymore.
Well, I appreciate your honesty. And sad to hear you’re doing so poorly. Maybe delete the whole thing…your decision of course.
I’m doing much better than I was. Years ago I couldn’t work at all, or breathe, lol. I have almost taken everything down, especially during the height of Covid idiocy when basically every alternative health guru on earth went full retard. It’s not a crowd I want to be part of, even though I often spent more time bashing the alternative nutrition community than I contributed to it. But this Vitamin A thing keeps me from yanking it all down. It’s a big breakthrough, and I know I’ll likely have more to share about it in the future. At the very least, it’s a powerful therapy for inflammatory skin conditions, allergies, and asthma. But it goes beyond that, and I’m interested to see how far. And the mainstream medical community has precisely ZERO helpful tips to offer anyone on the eradication of these things, so it’s not like I’m challenging great information by qualified experts by sharing my experiences and ideas about eradicating them.
Yes: “ And the mainstream medical community has precisely ZERO helpful tips to offer anyone on the eradication of these things, so it’s not like I’m challenging great information by qualified experts by sharing my experiences and ideas about eradicating them.” -Matt Stone. I agree. I don’t want to spend all my time trying to figure this out, but then again, Id like to live my one life well. Im 6 months in on using the combined intelligence/recon in Dr Smith’s pay-for-it Network. Ive triggered cholestasis but also got it called back down, meanwhile My improvements are joints (joint pain reduction is a huge life improvement!), muscles are relaxing more, energy, body temp increase, sleep is going well, went off naltrexone, off Oral Micronized progesterone, bowel habits, hair not falling out, armpit odor gone, not having to control histamine intolerance. The collective advice in the Network has been predictive of my reactions plus helped mitigate said reactions, so, the application has “held water” thus far.
One of Dr. Smith’s big ideas is that pesticides make vA poisoning more efficient. Perhaps the Okinawans are not exposed to many pesticides.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20695457
Chem Res Toxicol. 2010 Oct 18;23(10):1586-95. doi: 10.1021/tx1001749. Epub 2010 Aug 9.
Glyphosate-based herbicides produce teratogenic effects on vertebrates by impairing retinoic acid signaling.
I know people from Okinawa. I have two friends who’ve married Okinawan women, and a few who’ve lived there for extended periods of time. They don’t eat a lot of sweet potatoes. More than the average american, sure, but their heritage food is pork. They cook everything is pork fat. They’re obsessed with it, but their diets have change enormously over the last 20 years, more towards modern processed shit.
Actually, Grant does talk about another part of the Okinawan diet: that they added activated charcoal to their food, which may have helped absorb the toxicity. Also, the metabolism of beta carotene is somewhat different than that of, say, a vitamin A additive/supplement or the type of retinoid you would find in sunscreen or acne medicine (none of which they were using on a regular basis). Beta carotene is easier for your body to regulate because it first has to transform it into retinol. The Satsuma Imo sweet potato is also high in vitamin C, which protects against retinol toxicity. And on top of that, their crops were not all sprayed with glyphosate, which inhibits the body’s natural ability to break down retinol. So there are many, many difference here, and I’m sure I haven’t listed all of them. You should educate yourself about a theory first before dismissing it summarily.
Hi Matt,
Nice to hear a podcast from you again!
Just wondering if you don’t mind answering something on a different subject. I’ve been on a pretty much fat free diet due to developing gallstones while pregnant (I’m 34 weeks pregnant now). In order to avoid horrible gallbladder attacks I’ve found that I can’t eat any added fat at all, no oil, nuts, seeds, coconut, fatty fish or meat etc. I can sometimes have the tiniest amount of butter if it is mixed in with a lot of something else (e.g. mashed potato). The only meat I eat is tiny amounts of skinless chicken occasionally.
So I’ve been eating high carb low fat for about 2 months (Dr McDougall would be so proud :D ), and to my surprise metabolically I’ve felt ok and don’t find the food boring (I love carbs and sugar and tolerate them well). The only annoying thing is the lack of satiety you get with low-fat eating and occasionally daydreaming about cake. I’ve even noticed a couple of benefits such as clearer skin and all the usual aches and pains of pregnancy magically going away (seriously, it amazes me how not achey my joints feel compared to my last pregnancy). I’m still gaining weight as expected.
I’ll be having my gallbladder removed in a few months. My surgeon said after surgery I should reintroduce fats again. I can’t help wondering if my body is going to be super primed for fat storage the moment I eat some fat again? If I’m going to go completely wild and not be able to control myself around cake? I’d love to hear your thoughts on this!
Thanks :)
Do olive oil liver flushes. Google it. Look at the bs quackwatch stuff on it too and decide for yourself.
This is one of the very few things in the alternative health world that I don’t think is bullshit. Ignore ALL diet advice by ppl who advocate the flush (usually vegan nonsense). But the liver flush itself is legit. Thousands of people have fixed gallstone attacks and many other problems with it. Many who were scheduled for surgery, cancelled the surgery afterwards because scans showed stones were gone. Also, liver cholesterol stones may be related to all this vitA stuff, it may be the best way to quickly detoxify vitA without the problem of it being reabsorbed by the gut. That part remains to be seen, but based on the number of people who have permanently reversed autoimmune diseases just from doing liver flushes, I’d put my money init being the best solution for chronic vitA toxicity.
Thanks for the info, I did a liver flush once before years ago and read the quackwatch info and came to a similar conclusion (the diet recommendations are BS and drinking epsom salts makes you feel like utter crap, but I see how the actual liver flush olive oil drink could do something useful). Not sure if I could risk doing it now (especially not while pregnant) as my surgeon said the stones are now too large to exit by themselves. I’m also skeptical about people thinking they’ve flushed out hundreds of stones, my recent scan quite clearly showed about 10 stones, one I had several years ago showed no obvious stones but the doc reasoned there was something too small (grit/sludge) to show up on the scan at that point, that’s when I did the liver flush, after that I had several years of feeling fine until this pregnancy, I think the stones appeared or at least grew due to me having months of bad morning sickness and barely being able to eat, my doc said he often sees them in people who have done a crash diet.
Hey Bonita, Being pregnant with this condition is certainly a tough bind. That’s a decision you’ll have to decide. I certainly agree that releasing tons of toxic liver shit is risky during pregnancy. On the other hand, so is doing major surgery. And that surgery will result in permanent poor digestion because of bile release problems. Whatever you decide, be sure to research extensively the lifelong issues of people who have undergone the surgery and now suffer from serious digestion and gut issues. Doctors often fail to mention that part.
As for the stones, liver stones are different than gallbladder stones and are typically made of cholesterol and won’t be picked up on scans. Gallbladder stones can be made of this too. Or calcified stones. Both can be released with the liver flush. There are many reports of people releasing calcified gallbladder stones from doing liver flushing and then never suffering from another gallbladder attack.
As for whether all the stones that come out were from the liver or were made in the gut after from saponification or whatever, I cannot be 100% sure either way because I have yet to send mine to a lab. Others have, most showing they are in fact cholesterol, tho according to quackwatch and other antialternative health ssited, they claim othersfound they are oil, though I haven’t seen any lab reports of that.
What I am much more sure of, is the symptom reduction / elimination from thousands of people appears to be permanent and related to an improvement in liver (and often gallbladder) function. For dozens of these (that I’ve read) it involves gallbladder attack elimination.
Of course, anecdotal evidence should always be greeted with some level of healthy skepticism. Not so much because it may be false or made up, but because symptom reduction does not necessarily mean you fixed anything permanent… and in many cases symptoms go away temporarily at a huge cost of long term health. Veganism, Paleo, and calorie restriction are all good examples of this phenomenon. After thousands of hours of research and personal experimentation, the only interventions I’m relatively certain heal the actual root cause and allow you to go back to normal eating, are Matt stone’s metabolic healing, vitamin A restriction, liver flushing… And probably mineral balancing though I’m much less knowledgable on the latter. Almost everything else is mostly a mix of waste of time, dangerous, problematic for long term health, not useful enough to fix serious problems, or only relieves symptoms without helping fix the root. Allopathic and alternative both. And I’ve tried and researched about a LOT of the things that aren’t worth doing lol. The diet you are currently on is likely fine and necessary, as a temporary fix, but obviously isn’t reversing anything either.
Good luck in whatever you decide. But til then read and listen to as many opinions as you possibly can. Especiallypeople who have done repeated flushes, and people who have undergone gallbladder surgery.
Hi Zak, indeed, it is something I need to take into consideration, but I have quite a bit of time to think about it (basically I am not a candidate for surgery after I have my baby and am considered recovered from that, so a few months from now). I know a few people who have had gallbladder surgery, and the anecdotes range form people who feel fine or better after and think it is the best thing they ever did, to the unfortunate ones who have lifelong digestive/IBS issues related to bile problems presumably. I have one relative who lived until the age of 97 with no gallbladder (he’d had it removed in his 30s), he was the type of person with the constitution of an Ox who could eat anything he wanted, never gain weight, never had any major health issues (died with all his hair and teeth!) etc until he one day just conked out and dropped dead for no obvious reason. Funny thing is, shortly before he died he said his secret to longevity was not drinking too much water, especially not with food because it “dilutes the digestive juices”. However I know a couple of others who have dealt with IBS issues after the surgery, so don’t necessarily seem a lot better aside from no longer having gallbladder attacks (IMO gallbladder attacks are more painful than labor, with the added unpleasantness of not being able to take a full breath or find relief in any position, plus the uncontrollable vomiting, so I’d be happy not to have those again!). It is a bit of a lottery indeed.
Oops, I meant “until after I have my baby”
I’m not sure if some of these products might help, but I thought I’d mention them.
herbdoc.com/detox
baselinenutritionals.com/products/all-products.html
I certainly wouldn’t do any of them while pregnant, as you already noted.
Hi, Bonita:
Two more sites to consider:
karenhurd.com/gallbladder-disease.html
gallbladderattack.com
Good luck!
Thanks, the Karen Hurd article was interesting and kind of correlates to my experience, that frequently eating starchy foods with soluble fiber seems helpful (things like lentils and oats), makes sense that it could be due to eliminating bile so the body makes new bile instead of recycling so much of it. She doesn’t say where she gets her info from though so I’ll look into it more.
Vitamin K2. You’ve got calcium where it shouldn’t be.
Bonita Rose,
You might want to look into Taurine supplements to help with your gallbladder https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4032076/
I’ve read that it’s safe to take Taurine while you are pregnant, but you should probably confirm that before trying it. Also, you’ll have to look into the proper dosing for your situation. I take 3000 mg per day (divided) Solgar brand because it does not contain any other supplements. I’ve had excellent results for other issues, but I’m not pregnant.
Zac, great to see someone else on this forum so enlightened over liver flushes… I’ve done 71 of them over 4 years and they’ve changed my life… Overcome severe chronic fatigue, multiple chemical sensitivities, electro hypersensitivity, Candida symptoms… The flushes plus low vitamin A diet, sauna therapy and mineral balancing are the most important protocols for reversing chronic disease in my experience. Plus eating to appetite and sleeping of course!
There is so much you can do to clear your gallbladder (flushes for gallbladder and liver) and not have it removed. Problem with removal is that your liver will be more stressed especially as you age. Please reconsider the surgery and look into alternative therapies. You are young, you should be able to tolerate fats. Look into genetics; one simple way is to factor in your blood type. Ignore quackwatch Stephen Barrett, he is a failed MD and now discredits any alternative therapy for money. http://www.quackpotwatch.org/quackpots/quackpots/barrett.htm
Be well.
I’m just another Mom, no science degree of any kind. Go read about choline, its effects On fat in the diet and how critical it is for development. It’s the next b vitamin that will probably get an RDA established.
Phil, you may want to reconsider.
Beta-carotene is essentially two retinol molecules joined at their methyl ends, yet is safer to consume because it’s cleavage is regulated under reverse feedback from retinoic acid.
So the Okinawan’s consume vitamin A safely, as preformed vitamin A, aka beta-carotene, because it’s under tight regulation.
If you’re curious, which I doubt based off the tone of your comment, check out this paper:
Bachmann, Heinrich. “Feedback regulation of ?, ?-carotene 15, 15?-monooxygenase by retinoic acid in rats and chickens.” The Journal of nutrition (2002)?
Have a good day buddy!
I’m not sure what your interpretation was of my earlier comment but, my point was that they eat foods that are very rich in carotene and other retinoids, and they are very healthy. It seems like a joke for them to think that plant sources are worse.
Matt,
What kind of cooking oil do you recommend to use for cooking? I use butter for low heat but it not good for high heat cooking. And looks like coconut oil is out of the picture along with PUFA oils.
Great talk.
Where can we find the expanded low vitamin A menu? For a 3-6 month trial.
Nutrition Restored – Dr Garrett Smith is the guru for the diet
Perhaps I shouldn’t ask a question until I finish listening (into 1 hr) but is there a hack to the Vit A conversion so you don’t have to live on a ridiculous diet?
Genetically (and yes I express everything) I don’t convert Carotenoids to Vit A efficiently and turned orange as a teen from eating orange foods. So maybe that’s working to my benefit? I always jumped on these cutting edge finds (Ray Peat being the worst) and it’s resulted in long term harm, so I may sit back and watch until we totally get this ironed out but usually if my body doesn’t want it -it’s not good for me… I love carrot juice and sweet potato soup! hmmm
Sadly, I’ve been using Retinaldehyde topically for a year now and just stocked up on very very expensive product. I assume this is no good either – no safe forms?
Very interesting and I hope to learn how to juggle this without living like a complete freak, there’s enough to have to protect ourselves from….
Thanks!
Just found your book today and saw this post! I’m trying not to pee my pants laughing at your book about pee.
I’m really hoping your tips can help me with my next pregnancy. Hyperemesis gravidarum finished off by preeclampsia leading to a failed induction that turned into a c-section and developing post partum thryroiditis that became Hashimoto’s disease was AWESOME. I’ve been really wanting to take another shot at all that happening again!!!
In reading the first chapters of your book, I know I’m diluted. And while I don’t expect propely diluted fluids to be an end-all be all guaranteeing a…dare-I-say-it…tolerable pregnancy, it certainly can’t HURT me to have the right ratios. We shall see!!!
Thank you for all your hard work in getting this information out. I just dumped a packet of electrolyte mix into like 2 oz of water and drank it about 10 min ago. I already feel better.
Sorry to hear you had such a rough time with pregnancy! I suffered with severe sickness/nausea too this time with my second (not severe enough to be considered HG though). Two things I found slightly helpful: not taking any of the crappy prenatal vitamin products, I just took a basic B complex and some magnesium at night for better sleep. Eating according to Matt’s recommendations when I could actually eat (salt, sugar, starch, saturated fat – though that last one is now tricky for me due to gallstones, and not drowning myself with too much water). Foods that made me feel best were mashed potatoes with gravy and sweet syrupy salted pancakes (not together LOL).
Aww thanks!!! It was so tough. The HG by far was the roughest portion. Couldn’t even swallow my own spit at times. There were days I’d vomit 10-15 times in the shower. I lost a lot of weight initially.
Nutritional food yeast is a better way to get B vitamins.
I’m curious if the liver/gallbladder flush has had such amazing results because it possibly dumps large amounts of vit a from the liver?? My boyfriend has been having cluster headaches for the last 3 years now and he did the liver flush in the middle of a cluster and the headaches resided for 3 days but he loves tomatoes and peppers and eats them very frequently, I actually just spent hours this summer canning tomatoes from the farm where he lives, pooh! Well this is all fascinating and I will be following you both and maybe I can talk my boyfriend to abstaining for a month. Thank you!!
Matt, any observations/experience with the liver/gallbladder flush? Would that flush vit a?
I heard the Greenand shark can live up to greater than 250 years, up to 400!!!!. WOW. They do not reach reproductive maturity until 150 year old! They have a slow metabolism. Research needs to be done to help humans perhaps. Maybe we could learn something.
The biggest questions are just not answerable by “science.” We will never ever totally figure nature out-the deepest level is not attainable to us. Top physicists admit we do NOT know the deepest nature of what constitutes matter. We can never in principle. So much for the science OVERglorifyers- usually newbies, bloggers like Lyle McDonald et al. And these dumb science YouTubers and science bloggers.
P.S. This guy has some great points to make that “weight” does not really exist. it is entirely arbitrary:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYplcQ_J5rs
Forget focusing on “insulin”. it is blatantly obvious Gary Taubes is correct that obesity is like a tumor that grew out of control. It is genetically and hormonally driven. This is so obvious it should be a Captain Obvious commercial.
This is NOT even remotely a contest between Taubes versus GUyenet and Aragon. There is no debate. it is a hormonal problem- far more than insulin but hormonal, NOT energy balance or will power. We know this much. Guys like Rosenbaum, Guyenet – they need to start OVER. Doctors have it all wrong with obesity. Time for a RADICAL CHANGE. They effed up badly and should admit it. Just because it is in the research literature does NOT mean it is not in error. LOTS of info in journals is wrong. We know antibiotic type info fairly well- but obesity HELL N. I see sooo many obese maids working their asss off.They are diligent and admirable.
Thin people eat rewarding food all the time- I just recently saw this black girl( likely from Kenya) who was taller than me- I am 6′ 3″) she looked as lean as Manute Bol- like a gazelle- ENTIRELY GENETIC (tell GUyenet). ENTIRELY. She was blessed with a freakish leanness, if you call that a blessing- kind f not attractive. I like more meaty girls. She realllly stood out soooo long and skinny legs, like arms- freakishly skinny. I see her munching, too, walking around with chips.I saw this recently in Puerto Rico. She wuold look like that REGARDLESS/ This is her physique. I cannot get Mike Tyson’s bulky body, GENETICS. ( Reggie Miller is more of an ecto than I even)
“Food reward” is just as laughable as “energy balance”. These tards are abusing physics. LOTS of human activities are rewarding, including fast food or tatsy food- this is NOT the CAUSE of obesity. Obesity is run away fat growth, dysregulation. All sorts of builds eat rewarding food. Not everybody is obese-most never get obese eating rewarding food. Loads of skinny people are in McDonald’s. I rarely see a *super* obese person in these fast food places.-Lots of young teeny bopper types and early 20’s Instagram girls haha! Guyenet just will not cede.
Speaking of DYSREGULATION JIM CARREY AT HIS BEST:
LOL !!!!!!!!!!!!!1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Am1kX1WNH9I
Obesity involves DYSREGULATION of fat cells and GENES. And unknowns The calorie idea is DEAD.
I don’t understand how you can’t see this is the result of food sensitivities and subsequent elimination. It clearly has nothing to do with vitamin A.
People get better on a carnivore diet because they are eliminating things that were causing them inflammation.
YES: it is interesting that Vitamin A, particularly under low carb diets, does not appear to be an essential vitamin.
But none of this means Vitamin A is the culprit.
The people screaming Vitamin A is what made them sick haven’t even tested the hypothesis yet by supplementing some freaking Vitamin A!
It’s nuts.
Eat only natural foods you can digest without causing inflammation, and the human body can survive and thrive off anything: only ribeye steaks or only fruit…there’s examples of people doing great on both for 20+ years.
And for goodness sake there’s supercentarians who ate high vitamin A and beta Carotene diets their entire lives…obviously vitamin a isn’t the issue.
By what causes a food sensitivity? Leaky gut? What causes leaky gut? Garrett proposes retinoic acid is doing the same thing as it does in a chemical peel to your intestines. Voila food allergies.
ah, the good ol’ silver bullet
In the podcast Garrett mentions that his version of Genereux’s diet is broader than just beef and rice. is it possible to list these others foods for those of us who would like to experiment with this? Thanks.
Matt & Doc G:
I really enjoyed the conversation and hope we get to hear more from you two on the matter — and, perhaps Grant, too.
It’s good to see the ol’ 180D fired-up again.
Gall darn it Matt, I’ve been perfectly happy eating milk and cookies for years a la Diet Recovery 1, and now you gotta go and start researching again. I’m going to pretend like I didn’t hear about this Vitamin A stuff until I end up with a case of eczema or something.
I know you and Dr. G scoff at coffee enemas, but I had a funny thought about them. If this true about Vitamin A and one of the ways the liver eliminates toxins if they are fat soluble is through the bile, perhaps coffee enemas do help? The caffeine supposedly causes the gall bladder to contract and release bile that is then dumped into the digestive tract and goes out with the poop. This might help the liver continue to eliminate excess vitamin A? I don’t know enough to know if it would be sufficient enough elimination to see any reduction in symptoms or improvement in general. But perhaps this is why some people swear by them……But I am no expert on this stuff, so I defer to others.
Ive read so many good things about coffee enemas over the years but still blow it off like it’s too weird. But honestly I dont need that much more convincing to try it. If Matt or someone else online like Chris Sandel maybe even Kresser said theyre beneficial Im down.
What doesn’t make sense to me is all the people eating foods that convert to carotenoids and Vitamin A and do NOT suffer from any GI issues- or any health issues for that matter… I’d have to read Grant’s book but I’m wondering if this is not in fact the root issue but rather a trigger from some other root issue… not enough info to come to that conclusion.
The idea is that we all can tolerate a certain amount. We’re built to handle a certain amount. But in a world with megadosing with concentrated pills, medications and skin care products, fortified foods, and health food fetishes that often involve supranatural doses of carotenoids (like juicing carrots), it’s easy to get overloaded.
I absolutely agree on your point, the interview just came across so severe with eliminating foods like every other trend I laugh at doing now. I’m assuming this is only to be applied to those who you know for sure have issues with Vit A overload. I’d like to learn more to see where my pendulum swings in context of my biochemistry. What is it that allows one person to tolerate mega dosing and not another… perhaps some people need a lot more Vit A than others?and if so, why? Just like anything, it can be toxic to one and a necessary nutrient to another, and like you say the form/concentration matters. Could there be a % of peeps that need juiced carrots or topicals… and if so, what’s different about them?
I’m underweight, I actually need more muscle and struggle to gain but I blame that on a side effect of Lyme disease and all that controversially comes with that label. I’m pretty sure the reason America is overweight has way more to do with chemicals, pesticides and heavy metals, some of this is bad choices but mostly forced upon us. Perhaps Vit A is just the trigger not the gun… but I need more info to decide, will you guys go deeper in discussion?
My experience with testing, majority of the time, is that it’s garbage. When I see “test don’t guess” it’s extremely irritating, yeah it’s fun because it rhymes but please stop. There are no decent full picture tests out there for majority of what we are basing decisions on and yet we need some guideline to make intelligent decisions. I feel bad for practitioners because they want to protect their advice but it’s worse for the patient who paid for it all and pointed in the wrong direction. Bizarrely professional muscle testing (like ART) has been the most accurate for my positive treatment response… I’m going on a tangent but the point is, I’ll have to experiment with muscle testing on the Vit A topic. TBC
Thanks for sharing something new to ponder :)
So I guess all those children (and pregnant women) in third world countries going blind from Vitamin A deficiency is just a hoax.
Better tell the World Health Organization they’ve been had:
http://www.who.int/nutrition/topics/vad/en/
Hiya, Max:
Your point about Vitamin A deficiency and blindness is well-taken. But, I don’t believe they’re suggesting that everyone should avoid Vitamin A in all cases. Like most things, it depends.
It depends on how a person has been eating (fortified foods, supplements, juicing, etc.), their health status (do they have a disease, infections, organ dysfunction, etc.), whether or not they’ve been exposed to certain chemicals or pollutants (possibly affecting the liver), and probably other factors.
Admittedly, I’ve not read any of Grant’s three books, so there’s far more that I *don’t* know than I *do* know, but that’s what I gleaned from listening to this conversation, reading Matt’s former blog posts (and comments), and perusing Dr. Smith’s blog forum.
A few years ago, I got seduced into juicing lots of vegetables and fruits — particularly carrots. Because it was such a hassle and an expensive habit, though, I didn’t do it very long. I now wonder what would have happened, if anything, had I continued slamming loads of carrot juice down the hatch for months or years. Maybe I would have turned orange, as some do with hypercarotenemia.
Currently, I’ve no plans to avoid Vitamin A foods, but the discussion has further underscored something I decided earlier this year: To be more mindful about what I consume and try to avoid or greatly limit fortified foods, vitamin and mineral supplements, and things that are super-concentrated (even olive oil, butter, almond butter, etc.).
In short, as much as possible, I’m going to *try* to avoid or greatly limit isolated/concentrated/processed items that don’t exist in nature. That’s not to say olive oil or butter is bad, necessarily, but maybe our bodies do better with handling things in their natural package and in reasonable quantities. So, maybe eating olives, rather than using concentrated olive oil.
It’s a goal, but I don’t intend to be so rigid that I avoid an infrequent scoop of ice cream or slice of pizza!
Wishing you good health.
Thanks, Carl. But the very core of Grant’s theory that Matt and Garrett are evangelizing here is that Vitamin A is not a required nutrient at all but instead a toxic poison. The diplomatic, nuanced interpretation you’ve offered here really isn’t what they are saying at all.
So believing in this theory really does require you to believe that the phenomenon of poor, malnourished children going blind due to Vitamin A deficiency is one big sham. There’s a reason why Matt and Garrett are not addressing this.
Better tell UNICEF too:
https://data.unicef.org/topic/nutrition/vitamin-a-deficiency/
Grant addressed it a little bit on his first book I believe. Either he is completely wrong or the establishment is completely wrong. There’s really no middle ground. I thought Grant’s overall thesis was pretty convincing, especially now that he’s eating no vitamin A for 5 years and raised animals on vitamin A free diets without ANY of the supposed hallmarks of vitamin A deficiency. You might ask him about that.
Maybe you can address this, Matt, but I just don’t understand why it’s so important to this whole theory that Vitamin A be “not really a vitamin” and instead a toxic poison. Why can’t it be hypothesized as a simple overload issue, sort of like iron overload? A necessary nutrient, but at a certain point you can overload your system and be left with no way to naturally detox it. Couldn’t the success people might be having with this be just as easily explained with something less extreme/controversial like that?
I think it’s pretty key to the theory, and it’s key to understanding the scientific mistakes made in originally labeling it as a vitamin. If it weren’t a vitamin, not consuming it wouldn’t be controversial at all.
Thanks for that correction, Max. I wish Grant’s books were available in audio format, as I’d listen to them. But, I’d never be able to get through reading them. I appreciate the informative links, too.
Dr G has addressed this in videos on FB. If I remember correctly, he explained that what were once believed to be vit A receptors in the body are now being interpreted as DHA receptors that vit A hijacks. He explains this event like a lock. DHA is the “key” for the receptor (lock). Can the “lock” be picked by a lockpick (vit A)? Yes, but that does not mean it is the legitimate key for accessing that receptor. So when blindness occurs because the receptor isn’t being accessed at all due to poor nutrition, even the lockpick will result in opening the door.
Where is the evidence for the idea that blindness can be cured by taking DHA instead of Vitamin A?
But why does mothersmilk contain vitamin A when its poison? Cant imagine nature being that stupid…
Nevermind, I just listened to the end. Mothers detoxing vitamin a into the milk?? That must be one of the dumbest rhings I heard in a while.
Mother’s milk wouldn’t contain vitamin A if the mother wasn’t consuming it.
Genius guy for figuring all this out. Now he can pedal along with it until he gets bored and onto something else. God you have to love a naturopath.
Matt or anyone else,
I’m wondering whether near infrared red light therapy might help clear excess Vit. A. I have a near infrared sauna that my husband made. I love it. I stopped using it over the summer because it was too hot to sit in a sauna. Interesting, when I used it prior to summer, I had just learned about eating for heat and had not yet heard about the problems associated with Vit. A. It was June when I realized that I was consuming way too much A. I liked the way the sauna made me feel but I didn’t experience any miraculous benefits. By the time I started up with the sauna again this fall, I had been both eating for heat and consuming much less A (and taking Taurine). Now, the sauna seems amazing. I had various bumps on my skin that I think might be seborrheic keratosis and they are going away. Most importantly, I think my fat loss is accelerating. Is that possible? Anyone have any thoughts on whether red light therapy might or might not help with excess V. A.
That’s interesting Jeanne. Since vitamin A is such a light sensitive particle, I can’t imagine ANY type of light wouldn’t have some impact on it.
Hi Jeanne, we’re talking a bit about that at Grant’s blog under the title PhotoBioModulation. PubMed is jam-packed with articles about it. Companies going in that direction are NovoThor, LumiThera, VieLight. Some anecdotal evidence from chiropractors and physical therapists using the full-body NovoThor eliminating Fibro, RA, Chronic Fatigue, Depression, Anxiety, etc symptoms. Panels of 660nm and 850nm LED’s at a 50:50 ratio are much cheaper direct from China. Search Alibaba. I’ve got a couple coming from Shenzhen SunGrow Co. Hope that helps. It’s my favorite research these days.
Hillcountry–Thanks! I checked out the tread you mentioned in GG’s blog and will definitely spend more time there. I’m using a homemade incandescent red, near infrared light sauna similar to what is sold at saunaspace.com. In fact, I purchased the bulbs from saunaspace. Saunaspace also has links to some great research. My husband built and wired the light panel a couple years ago. I have it hanging in my laundry room. I did quite a bit of research prior to him building it. At the time, I was concerned about EMFs emitted by LEDs so I went with incandescent. Now I’m not sure if one is more beneficial than the other. I do love what I have. Can’t get motivated to use it during hot weather, but 9 months out of the year it’s great. I’ve built up to using it 40 minutes a day. It’s a single panel so I rotate 90 degrees every 10 minutes. It’s hard to quantify the benefits but I feel really good when I use it. I believe it may be improving the appearance of my skin, giving me more energy, reducing aches and pains, and helping me lose weight. But I can’t prove that. I’ve wondered if it works by raising the body’s temperature–just a wild guess.
I apologize if this has been addressed elsewhere but please acknowledge. Dr. Garrett Smith feels pretty strongly that most of us should eat nightshades pretty sparingly. Does Matt Stone agree with those conclusions?
As I’ve stated before, when intelligent people cannot come to an agreement it is mind boggling how anyone else can decide.
I havent checked but I had some pretty interesting ideas in the vitamin or villain post, under metal dude or robert dean. It was late in the game idk if anyone read it. Thanks for reading!
Forgive me, I am listening to the podcast now and heard that Dr. Garrett gives white fleshed potatoes a pass. Thats pretty awesome to me I feel so much better I literally just laughed about it. The potato thing with Dr. Garrett drove me insane.
I shouldnt say anymore before listening to the whole podcast but I am super curious about Dr. Garrets advice on what to do in winter for vitamin D or if he thinks it isnt necessary. Obviously I must look through his material either way.
I should be saying Dr. Smith. My b. Garrett sounds better I guess.
Hey, Bob Dean Metal Dude:
Something like the phototherapy light in the following article might be an option getting Vitamin (Hormone) D in the winter:
https://markitonutrition.com/videos/the-truth-about-vitamin-d
Dr. Andrew Weil wrote the following on his website:
“Fortunately, if you get enough sun exposure in the summer, your body will make and store enough D to get you through the winter. This doesn’t work as well if you’re obese because body fat holds onto vitamin D tenaciously and doesn’t release it efficiently,says Michael Holick, Ph.D., M.D., an expert at Boston University.
…
Because so many people don’t get sufficient vitamin D from sun exposure or their diets, I recommend a daily supplement of 2,000 IU. Use the D3 form (cholecalciferol) and take it with a fat-containing meal to ensure absorption. There are no concerns about toxicity with this dose of supplemental vitamin D (the body will make 10,000 to 20,000 IU per day with moderate exposure to the summer sun).”
So, he believes there’s no toxicity issues from 2,000IU daily, because the body makes 5-10 times that amount with moderate sun exposure.
However…
On the Mayo Clinic website, I read the following:
“Vitamin D toxicity, also called hypervitaminosis D, is a rare but potentially serious condition that occurs when you have excessive amounts of vitamin D in your body.
Vitamin D toxicity is usually caused by megadoses of vitamin D supplements ? not by diet or sun exposure. That’s because your body regulates the amount of vitamin D produced by sun exposure, and even fortified foods don’t contain large amounts of vitamin D.
The main consequence of vitamin D toxicity is a buildup of calcium in your blood (hypercalcemia), which can cause nausea and vomiting, weakness, and frequent urination. Symptoms might progress to bone pain and kidney problems, such as the formation of calcium stones.”
So, Dr. Weil says supplemental Vitamin D isn’t a problem at 2,000 IU, because that’s less than the body makes with sun exposure. Thus, he implies that supplements and sun exposure are the same. Then, by contrast, the Mayo Clinic clearly states that supplemental Vitamin D is NOT the same as Vitamin D from diet or sun exposure.
As you noted, how does a layperson decide what to follow, when the “experts” don’t even agree?
Then, from Adam Cloe PhD, MD writes the following on the sfgate.com website:
“Vitamin D deficiency is common in climates with low levels of daily sunlight, since the body can make vitamin D in response to sunlight. Taking vitamin D supplements may help combat this problem. Because the metabolism of vitamin D is complex and excess amounts can be stored in fat and other tissues, it is difficult to determine how long a daily dose of vitamin D would stay in the body, but it appears that large doses will last for approximately two months.
Vitamin D supplements can be metabolized into a compound called 25-hydroxyvitamin D, also called calcidiol. Blood levels of this chemical can be used to measure the levels of vitamin D in the body and to monitor the effects of vitamin D supplements. One way to determine how long a compound stays in the body is to look at its half-life, which is the length of time it takes for half of a compound to be eliminated from the body. The half-life of calcidiol is 15 days. This means that after 15 days, half of the vitamin D from an oral supplement has left the body and that 30 days after a dose of vitamin D only 25 percent of the vitamin remains.
There are two aspects of vitamin D that make determining how long vitamin D supplements stay in the body difficult. The first is that the body naturally makes vitamin D when skin is exposed to sunlight, and it is difficult to distinguish between naturally produced vitamin D and supplements in the blood. Second, excess vitamin D is stored in fat, which means that some of the vitamin D from a supplement could stay in the body for an extended period of time if it is stored rather than used.”
Now, his comment:
“…the body naturally makes vitamin D when skin is exposed to sunlight, and it is difficult to distinguish between naturally produced vitamin D and supplements in the blood.”
Difficult for whom? The Doctor? The body? We don’t know his intent, but I’m willing to bet the body is smart enough to know the difference.
Finally, Dr. Cloe ends with the following:
“If you are taking a vitamin D supplement every day, it can take up to one month for your vitamin D levels in your blood to reach a steady level. If you are concerned that you are taking too much vitamin D, talk to your doctor. Excessive vitamin D supplementation can cause weight loss, abnormal heart rhythms and increased urination. It can also cause an increase in calcium levels, which can damage your heart, kidneys and blood vessels.”
As I wrote in another comment above, my intent is to steer clear of supplements and fortified foods for a while, just out of an abundance of caution. Maybe there’s no problem at all. Or, maybe these items are only problematic in certain people. Whatever the case, I believe the principle of “less is more” is worth invoking.
Whatever you choose, I wish you good luck!
A choline ?vacuum cleaner?:
http://www.bloodjournal.org/content/104/10/3006.2'sso-checked=true
Thanks for the info. I think Ive read that Mercola recommends tanning with magnetic ballasts but also writes it still might not be able to totally mimic sunlight exposure. Who knows…lol
The Sweet Truth About Liver and Egg Yolks ? Choline Matters More to Fatty Liver Than Sugar, Alcohol, or Fat:
https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2010/11/23/sweet-truth-about-liver-and-egg-yolks/
The Incredible, Edible Egg Yolk:
https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2005/07/01/the-incredible-edible-egg-yolk/
A choline ?vacuum cleaner?:
http://www.bloodjournal.org/content/104/10/3006.2'sso-checked=true
Do parasites increase choline requirements?:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/12/171229135301.htm
Does candida albicans increase choline requirements?
PS, It’s Complicated: The Roles of Phosphatidylserine and Phosphatidylethanolamine in the Pathogenesis of Candida albicans and Other Microbial Pathogens:
https://res.mdpi.com/jof/jof-04-00028/article_deploy/jof-04-00028-v2.pdf?filename=&attachment=1
What Is Choline? Benefits, Sources & Signs of Choline Deficiency:
https://draxe.com/what-is-choline/
We really need to start over with regard to obesity.Einstein wanted to start over in physics.A revolution, shake it up.
Medical doctors just have it all wrong- phony diagnostic techniques, not understanding what ‘weight’ is, it’s arbitrary, not understanding what “energy” is Z( a human made up fiction) it is all messed up.
Genetics- no money, no sales in admitting this. Dysregultion of some sort whihc we do not understand- hormones, too. I have been in many crowded places, i observe obese peoel they are not eating anymore than their normal composition contemporaries. Just today i saw several lean girls have more at McDonald’s than I. They had a double quaterpounder. GENES GENE DEFECTS.
Guyenet, McDonald are WRONG- taubes is RIGHT- the right direction. Forget insulin specifically,. focus on how taubes correctly debunks the commonly held views and points ot hormones.The “literature” is filled with error. Scientists and doctors messed up badly with obesity. I guess because it is a personal type situation.
People who check obesity up to eating too ,much or eating tasty food and laughably ignorant on the topic.And it certainly is NOT rewarding food wither. MILLIONS of people eat rewarding food.
move away from food on to GENETICS, HORMONES, DYSREGUALTION, UNKNOWNS.
I have seen people from certain tribes who are alll extremely skinny, it is just their natural physique. Guys like Reggie Miller and even skinnier are simply that way due to GENES.
RAZZLE DAZZLE!
How are you, buddy? Are you still down in the southeast? Are you getting any cool weather yet? :-)
Hi Carl !
Right now I am in Miami looking at the tropcial sausage trees. : ) 80 degree water temps, 87 high, 75 low . The sunlight has leaned me out again. It shrinks any problem areas. haha.
Best wishes,
Razzi
Hi, Razwell!
Tropical sausage trees! I thought that was a joke, as it sounded too funny. But, I searched Google Images, and of course, there they were! If only they were real sausages…and pepperonis! : )
Those temperatures sound really nice. I wish I were enjoying such weather. It’s in the low 30s here and sleet and ice are expected. But, it’s that time of year.
I remember how effortlessly you lean-out, in the sunlight. You probably have few problem areas. Don’t worry about your swimsuit making your butt look big. hahahaha
Stay well, Razzi!
Sincerely,
Carl
Matt I know you had mentioned you were reading The Plant Paradox as possibly an alternative explanation. I’m reading that book now and am curious if you think lectin could be a big part the issue that so many people have with their health.
I’ve done a shitty job of following through on reading that. But I’m out camping for a while, so I should be able to catch up on my reading. Will let you know. I certainly think it could be though. But it wouldn’t necessarily explain why eggs, cod liver oil, casein, etc. can trigger the exact same type of flareups.
I don’t know how many of you remember this, but when Dr. Ron Schmidt was very sick he found that a beef and water diet was the only thing that seemed to help. I’m pretty sure he had a wordpress blog post (now gone) about that at one point, before he realized that the cod liver oil was the primary factor causing his illness.
Matt
what is your opinion on collagen peptide powder? Is it worth taking?
What an absolutely amazing and enlightening interview! It is astounding that this could be the missing link as to why both the potato hack and the all beef diet work for some people. It was especially interesting to learn how Vitamin A can affect obesity and mitochondrial function, considering I was on a jack Kruse kick, LOL. I can’t wait to learn more about those topics! I’m wondering if there are certain supplements that would be advisable for most people, such as zinc or vitamin C? I thought I read about those somewhere. And I wonder about getting enough DHA since salmon and sardines are high on vitamin A List? I am trying to learn as fast as time will allow me to read through this info!
I liked the open-minded people you usually have on, Matt. Very good work. People like jamie Hale are Scientism type people. hale is spewing misinformation to audiences. Only these bizarre science blogs think our science invention can answer what matter is ultimately made of. As Kip Thorne noted, these different levels may go on forever. We have zero way of ever, ever knowing.
Roger Penrose would tell you scientsts cannot answer at all the question “What is matter REALLY made of at the very, very deepest ultimatte level?”
Beta-carotene may be problematic, but vitamin A is not.
Liver and egg yolks are great sources of vitamin A.
Vitamin A is needed to make pregnenolone from cholesterol, it boots testosterone and DHT, enhances 5-alpha reductase, lowers cortisol, lowers estrogen, antagonizes endotoxin (LPS).
My 11 month old daughter has eczema which developed around 3 months while she was still exclusively breast fed. I’ve been trying to get at the root of the cause which led me to 180degree health in the first place. Nothing I’ve tried (including RARF) has even remotely helped her condition. This sounds promising. Where can I find the list of no/low vitamin A food recommendations?
I found this site:
http://dietgrail.com/no-vitamin-a-foods/
At the end of the previous article (vitamin a:vitamin or villain) is a link to a pdf file of low vitamin a foods.
However some foods are low vitamin a but still aggravate vitamin a toxicity such as pork. Peanuts, gluten, coconut oil and chocolate are a problem for some but not others.
Butter is high in vitamin a but has the beneficial butyric acid. Even still, some don’t tolerate butter or ghee at all.
Celery, green cabbage and iceberg lettuce have protective properties too so might be OK.
If you want help you can contact dr G Smith. For a fee (no idea how much) he gives guidance and a food list.
Taurine, vitamin e, vitamin c and zinc are probably helpful during detox though with children I don’t know if it’s good to supplement.
There’s also a low vitamin a diet overview here: https://butternutrition.com/vitamin-a-detox-diet/
Hope this works out for your daughter!
Hi, Matt:
We have been reading your books, and now your blog, but we are a little confused about something. Dr. Garrett Smith seems to be more along the lines of no grains and sugars, and no nightshades, but in your refeeding plan you say to eat any and everything. Hope you can clarify this for us, as we have been off grains for quite a number of years, along with finding out we have the MTHFR gene mutation.
I’m curious about this as well.
If you need refeeding, the most important thing is calories. I’d disregard most other info as you go about trying to achieve a calorie surplus, as it’s extremely difficult to achieve a surplus while restricting anything, much less big, hyperpalatable categories like grains and sugars.
Matt, awesome podcast! I’ve benefitted a lot from reducing Vitamin A in my diet – it’s almost miraculous when it comes to some of my persistent gut issues.
However I do not seem to do well on white rice at all (I must be like the only person in the world who has a bad reaction to white rice, lol). Pasta and bread on the other hand seem just fine and give me stable energy. Do you think gluten is a huge problem when it comes to reducing vitamin A levels in the body?
I don’t think gluten is the worst offender. Not at all. I think there is going to be some natural variance as to what people find to work best. Gluten and very high levels of beef fat (like 100+g per day) aggravates me more than say, chocolate and coconut (both of which don’t seem to aggravate my asthma).
Asthma can stop with the Gesret method, so this is not only about diet. The last person I informed, German, got out of asthma in 3 sessions, after a life-long friendship with some vapo device…
She was lucky to have a trained therapist very near!
I have no interest in it, I just know practitioners, but they are in France for the most! And there is a mess in the list of practitioners abroad since the death of Gesret.
This method also works for eczema, and both are known to alternate, or change from childhood to adulthood. The change in the Gesret manual protocole is about the ribs that are treated. His theory was about micro-luxations that irritates the vagus nerve (passing under the ribs near the spine), sending phantom messages (like in phantom limb).
As many things need the addition of 2 factors, let’s say vitamine A is one, then why do people get auto-immune symptoms in different parts of their body? That is where Gesret point of view can cross with any other cause… as it will inform about WHERE the symptoms are going to appear.
And his point to stop an asthma attacks works too. It is under the arm pit.
His method gets less success on psoriasis and allergies, but helps there too.
As I mentioned the vagus nerve, let’s remember that there are many ways to create a fight and flight or freeze response in the body. So retinol – that I cannot call vitamin any more – can be a major trigger for sympathetic activations, making it hard for the vagus to put us in the needed reparative para-sympathetic state.
If anyone has or plans to use vitamin A depletion to treat anxiety, depression, or other mood issues, I would be very excited to discuss your results. I am trying to help someone dear to me deal with these debilitating issues. neschuler@hotmail.com
Check out Joey Lott (joeylott.com), his work does wonders for that sort of thing (stress, anxiety).
I used to have panic attacks all the time, not anymore though since doing some of his courses/methods.
Have a look at somatic experiencing, organic intelligence, somatic practice, and Irene Lyon’s program for all related to the autonomic nervous system. I know these all personally and this is the best way. Physically, Feldenkrais method also helps, and biodynamic cranio-sacral too.
Dealing with any offender such as VitA but also pesticide or heavy metal and molds and SIBO will help for sure, see the relationship through the Nemechek protocol for SIBO, he makes the relationship to the ANS.
Xisca,
Have you any experience with Dynamic Neural Retraining System (DNRS) or the Gupta Programme? If so, I would enjoy hearing your opinion.
Thanks
Would be good if he shared the list of foods to eat for vit a detox. If butter is OK because of butyric acid I wonder what other foods with vitamin A are also OK to eat. Do fruit and veg high in vitamin k balance out the vitamin A? Is that why green vegetables aren’t as toxic as orange ones?
And what deficiencies make us vulnerable to vitamin A overload?
I’ve been considering trying this diet to help with joint pain. I’m on just a standard elimination diet at the moment which hasn’t helped so far. Keeping vitamin a in mind for when I reintroduce certain foods…
https://www.consultdranderson.com/vitamin-a-and-accutane-toxicity-notes/
Article on what helps with vitamin a toxicity.
Herbs like burdock might help with detox too I guess
Dr. Smith has a great YouTube video about the zones where people live to 100 years old and more and how they go to measures to prevent iron overload. I think too much iron is overlooked. It may be partly behind coronary artery disease perhaps.if yuo are borderline anemic it may be a good idea not to treat just to do natural measures. Of course, other cases do not apply.
Too much iron is absolutely deadly to a STAR. : )
Matt or anyone please help me with this question. Most calcium foods have Vitamin A in them so what should I feed my kids and me to get enough calcium without all the Vitamin A?
Legumes, nuts and chicken I guess. Also Genereux mentions in his book that calcium is used as a buffer against excess circulating vitamin a. The body will even suck it out of bones if necessary which can lead to osteoporosis. So it seems less vitamin a = less need for calcium
Chia seeds, very good calcium levels : ) very low in vitamins though, but high in many of these various elements etc. manganese etc. Just sprinkle a little on cereal or yogurt etc.- too much could cause bloating and digestive troubles. I love chia with fish oil personally.
Just trying to clarify. Butter gets a pass?
I don’t know if I’d view it as a pass/fail type of thing. Dr. G is saying that he thinks it’s fine in small amounts even though it has some vitamin A because of the protective effect of butyric acid. That doesn’t mean that you can eat huge quantities of it and not notice any ill effect. Personally, I notice butter being worse for me than chocolate and coconut. Haven’t tried ghee, which might be better.
Thanks for your response. Signed up and just finished reading Diet Recovery. Excellent book.
Me, too, Matt. I do well with dark chocolate in particular. I am a chocolate FIEND. Butter I can take or leave, doesn’t agree with my stomach generally unless i keep it low.
As for iron, I listened to a couple of podcasts by PD Mangan on iron overload. He also wrote a book on it (“Dumping Iron”). While I think he may be a bit reductionist (the same with singling out Vitamin A or anything else), there’s some pretty good evidence that many adults (particularly men) could reduce their iron levels. You should get your ferritin levels tested first, though. I’m a bit afraid too, as I hate giving blood (the best and easiest remedy for iron overload). It’s a good thing to do and all, but makes me want to faint.
What I don’t get, though, is that Mangan is pretty much a paleo, heavy-meat consumption guy. Eating all that heme iron means you’ll have to take countermeasures to reduce it.
Non fortified casein heavy milk products i.e cottage cheese aggrevate me like nothing else. I will get itching eczema on my legs, dry skin all over body it looks like powder and cracks. Other symptoms are high pulse, out of breathness, broncial issues that comes within minutes of eating it. The bigger portion, the worse symtoms.
I used to eat 1lb daily carrots at work and my brain stopped working. Not until months after stopping daily eggs, carrots and other A heavy foods as well as all milk products did I discover my ability to remember things had return and eczema went away.
I had a weekend of cheezy toasts and hefty chocolate (dark) and loads pf butter and bam, all symtoms back with a vengence. Stopped all A foods for a week, ate a soup which had red lentils and tomato in it, and skin started itching immediately.
Egg yolk aggevates my mood also. Egg whites are fine.
First I thought I had food allergies but all such tests came back negative.
Also every time i try casein foods, i get anemia. I used to have chronic anemia. Stopping milky products for 4 months has helped me keep my Iron levels within range.
Then I reintroduced casein, eggs and vegs high in betaC and bam itchyness, eczema, mental health issues back. I would cry for nothing.
I have a history of depression anxiety body dysmorphia besides all gut issues and food intolerances. And blurry vision, muscle tics, ridges on nails, some vascularity in eyes that wont go away, no sex drive, severe endometriosis, hair loss, more gray brittle hairs that came from nowhere one day (i am only 36 with no greys and suddenly there are plenty) and much more.
All started after using Accutane in my 20’s.
After that i was a carrot juicing vegan for a few years. After that i did pork and butter heavy lchf for a year.
I have been poisoning myself in my quest for health.
And it was probably vit A all along.
This podcast blew my mind, because while dodging all vit A, i was still ingesting daily dark chocolate / cocoa and coconut oil. Plus peanut butter. Maybe that is why i still experienced some issues?
Matt will you follow up with more A related posts?
Maybe anyone can answer to this? I wonder if my endometriosis could be related to vitamin A toxicity? I have symptoms of low estrogen which doesnt make sense because estrogen aggrevates endo, and my cysts are growing and lesiond also. Can liver’s ability to handle excess estrogen be affected by vitamin A if liver storage is full of it?
I have no pain what so ever anymore from endo, i managed to fix that, but still all fxcked up inside due to lesions and cysts. Both ovaries are twisted and located on my left side, attached to my uterus. But no more pain.
Nothin have helped my endo to grow (will not take drugs) and I have vacuumed internetz for supplements and such. Tried it all. Could vit A be the key?
Liz,
I’m not sure how to help, but I just happened to read the following article and it reminded me of your question:
https://butternutrition.com/estrogen-dominance-hormonal-imbalance
Maybe some of the links in the article will lead you to something helpful. Or, you can always post a question below the article.
Best of luck!
Hi Carl :)
Thanks for trying to help. I really appreaciate it.
I used to have all the signs of estrogen dominance. Except that my hormonal levels were always normal/low. I have biohacked myself out of any symptoms so I am 100% pain free. No pms, no endo pain, no mood swings, nothing. It is like I no longer have endometriosis. Except that I am a mess on the inside.
It would not surprise me if my endo is related somehow to this whole vit A thing (i could also have a genetic issue with metabolizing estrogen in which case vit a full liver probably isnt an advantage..)
Time will tell. I am carrying on with my diet experiment. Eczema stopped spreading and itching calmed down, but i have flare ups of itciness now and then. Should take this to Grants blog i guess :) .
Hi, Liz!
You’re welcome, though I’m sorry it wasn’t helpful.
I’m impressed with your being able to biohack your way out of your symptoms of pain and mood swings.
I’ve just re-read your original, longer post and it seems you’ve been through hell. I can relate to some of it, with regarding to various diets, juicing, hair loss, grey hair, etc. It’s ironic how our quest to get “healthy” can often wreck us. I guess ignorance really is bliss. Well, perhaps it’s somewhere in the middle.
Anyway, that Butter Nutrition blog also mentions Grant’s theory on Vitamin A.
https://butternutrition.com/signs-vitamin-a-toxicity
(Her blog sure reminds me of Matt’s blog.)
The topic seems to be gaining a little more momentum, though I’ve had a few folks roundly reject it. But, I suspect they didn’t really dig into the matter like Grant, Matt, Doc G, yourself, and others.
You have a good point about posting your question on Grant’s blog. The obviousness of that totally escaped me. :-) It was nearly 5:00 AM, when I wrote, and I was trying to think with my four remaining brain cells, after having been awake all night.
I wish you good luck!
Sincerely,
Carl
I think it’s worth trying a low to no A diet for a couple months Liz to see if it helps.
I had endometriosis years ago and had a hysterectomy. I’m not recommending that you have one by any means just giving you a little background! I’ve been in a rough menopause for a couple years and having horrible symptoms despite rock bottom estrogen levels on blood work. After about 3 months on low-no vitamin A my menopause changed to very manageable with minimal night sweats, improvement in hirsutism, vaginitis symptoms and no more breast tenderness. Mood is much improved too! I learned that vitamin A is involved in aromatazation (from Harry, thanks!) besides all the other hormone effects.
I can’t imagine that it could harm you in anyway to give it a trial and if you are like me it may indeed help! I never expected it to help my menopause symptoms.
No Liz, no more vitamin A posts. Clearly, as you have experienced and as other commenters have pointed out, this is just a bunch of “nonsense” hahaha.
Hahaha yeah it sounds like a big conspiracy theory. Until one actually dig into it.
Liver and veggies (and butter) are such trendy foods that it is hard for people to see that they can do harm, I guess. But that probably relates more to the fact that food has become religion and that means defending your beliefs. I guess.
@Carl your sweet comments to everyone here make me want to adopt you, hide you away and keep you to myself. Now that could be cruel so I will not do thay. You just seem like an awesome person (i have been lurking here for probably 10 years or so) :) lol yeah living extremely “healthy”for years and years and still having all those symtoms and diseases certainmy feels like shit I guess. But i have no regrets. ok maybe a little. And i have had a few miracles as well, being magically healed. Which people also have a hard time grasping (understandable). I am im peace with it all. Just found out I need urgent surgery for my endo, it has fxxed up all my inner organs and now I have a female version of prostate issues due to this, i.e cant pee. Many are praying for me, and it FEELS like I have been healed. I have a large kidney also filled with urine but no pain. 100% pain free. No fears, just peace.
Regarding vit A, my obsession with finding answers has led me to this. And this time I really believe it will make a difference because of all the testimonals out there. And Grant’s thorough work. This is way different than any fruitarian, carnivore, whatnot diet.
Shitty season going vit A free in though but worth it in the long run :)
I hope xD
I will sherish the day I can eat cheese again. Mmm, cheeese.
@Bella. Aromatazation? Omg that would explain A LOT!!!
No one is taking anything out of me by free will haha ????. I will have suegery in ca 4 weeks time (see my comment to Carl above) but I have told them Touch my organs and I will haunt you in the afterlife. Both my ovaries are twisted and located on the left side with 10cm cysts bbut still, DONT cut in them!!
Thank you for sharing :) Hearing testimonals is so fascinating amd encouraging!! Do you have any other health issues you are battling besides kicking menopause in the P?
I will update here with how it goes. In case someone with endo in the future might be looking for an answer (I know I have).
First proof at least is skin stopped itching and no more tummy bloat. Also meat makes me extremely constipated but have been eating it daily since i went vit A free and i am pooping like a champ. Guess it wasn’t the meat after all.
Other current symtoms of vit A poisoning:
Blood shot eyes
Hair loss
Eczema
Flaky powdery skin
Dry semi cracked heels
Ridges on nails
No nail moons
Mental fog which got much better 100% milk + carrot free bit worse again after weekend of high vit A
Gray hair
From perfect vision to shitty after diet change.
Constipation (seems to have cleared up)
Endo?
Kidney issues?
Probably more I cant think of right now.
Liz,
I will definitely be praying for you!!!
Try not to stress too much about it all. I know that’s easier said than done but it definitely doesn’t help to worry.
I have a long history of health issues -too many to write out here hahaha but I’ve had great results going low A for close to 5 months now. I primarily decided to do it for worsening autoimmune issues after supplementing A (and using retin-A) but as I mentioned it helped my hormones too. I’ve written about it some on Grant’s site under the same username.
Hopefully in 4 weeks time you will be improving to the point that you don’t need any organs removed. Is it exploratory surgery?
Grant wrote in one of his books that the most dramatic results happened for him in the first 3-4 weeks and then after that it was a more slow but steady recovery if I’m remembering right.
Hang in there!
Hi Bella,
I am praying for a christmas miracle so your prayers are much appreciated :) but funny thing is, i am not upset, angry, sad or anything. I am actually quite joyous and at peace. Convinced this will be taken care of in a good way :)
My endo has “exploded” despite having lowish estrogen which tells me there is something I either do or eat.
I will pray for this vit a thing to reach more people. And for them to be healed from it. So many going from diet to diet in search for an answer living miserable lives getting sicker when there might be a solution. I am so glad to hear (read) that you had such a success in just 5 months time.
My parents are trying vit a free diet now as well. Dad has alzheimers running in his family so he wants to see if his memory can improve.
“See” you over at Grant’s.
Google search this phrase then look at Google Images “Myostatin gene mutation cows.” These cows are extremely muscular, total freaks of nature- eating has little to do with it. They grow because of this gene defect. Muscularity to the extreme. They literally look like The Hulk – the animal version.
There is no such situation as acceptance of a theory into science.
All scientific theories( like all knowledge) are CONJECTURE m GUESSWORK, INTERPRETATION, INFERENCES and remain so. ( the brilliant David Deutsch) ALL that exists is the state of debate. There are preferred models only. Deutsch uses quantum mechanics to try to understand this world , however, he states in articles and interviews he is SURE it is WRONG.
NO one has SEEN the workings and nuclear reactions inside of a star, nor seen evolution. The clinching evidence? Rocks with finches, s Deutsch says. WE INFER all of this. Guesswork, interpretation.
Being wrong or having :”false philosphy” is not what prevents progress. The default state of knowledge is error- erros in our BEST theories- which are ONLY very vague approximations, models. They are called theories for a reason. Pictures, models etc. etc. Extremely fallible The state of debate leans toward Taubes -GENETICS, HORMONES.
Bad explanations and elusin prevent progress. The calorie model is a delusion and a very BAD explanation amd HALTED prpgress. The axial tilt of season si a very hard to vary GOOD explanation.
Our science is progressing VERY SLOW- shame on us. Deustch makes good points as to WHY.
Wow, those cows are wild looking! I’ve never seen such animals. They don’t even look real!
Great writing, too, about scientific theories being conjecture and guesswork.
I especially liked this point:
“The default state of knowledge is error – errors in our BEST theories – which are ONLY very vague approximations, models.”
Your posts are always informative and enlightening. :-)
Best regards,
Carl
There is ONLY the state of debate regarding theories. Some are preferred because they seemed to survive criticism their rivals have not. However, there is only the state of debate- never acceptance- and this state is often complex , inconsistent and transient. Evidence does NOT lead to acceptance of a theory as true.
Testing cancels acceptance but cannot create it. Testability was very common and NOT what opened the intellectual prison gates. Any bum claiming the sun will go out net Tuesday has a testable claim.This did not lead to progress. Good explanations did,.
All of the brilliant Deutsch;’s points are LOST on Aragon, Krieger, GUyenet- none of them understand science. They dramatically overstate it as well as theories.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=folTvNDL08A
Deutsch points out the major problems with statistical analysis of experimental results. Math formulas NEVER EXPLAINS the results – EVER. The results are NOT reality, rather a TINY SLIVER of reality. We are trying to understand the UNOBSERVED reality. . Kevin Hall does this. With those DOPES at the helm we will never make obesity treatment progress,…..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eEffbjzNwE
So many dumb science blogs out there. Deutsch will set them straight.
Ken Wheeler made similar point that Deutsch has made. Math is NEVER any explanation
Matt one day you will laugh on this vit A nonsense as on many other things through your health/diet journey.. I am really surprised that you can’t see now how ridiculous is this vit A is cause of all problems thinking LOL.. Maybe just Smith needs sell some new ideas and you are just his friend in this? I hope so..
Thanks , Carl. : )
I hope you are doing great. I could also put it that “error is the standard state of human knowledge.”
Great DEutsch interview here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eEffbjzNwE
CarbSane, James Fell, Kevin Hall, James Krieger, Alan Aragon, Colpo, Lyle McDonald- all these people are of very low intellect- Guyenet, too- he may be a littttle better than the rest but he is no Deutsch.
Even Mike Rosenbaum is a stubborn ass and I agree with Taubes he is not too bright. He, like many medical doctors, does not understand scientific progress, human progress in general.
A New Way To Explain Explanation is the greatest talk I have ever heard on topics of science and physics. And the link above shows how GUyenet et al hold gross misunderstandings and thwart progress in the field of obesity.
When I see Colpo’s, GUyenet’s or McDonald’s lame articles,especially about science ( Jamie Hale is particularly low intelligence and totally gets science wrong) I just shake my head and laugh at their arrogant complete ignorance.
This is the talk I was mentioning.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=folTvNDL08A
We perceive nothing as it really is and only a long chain of theoretical reasoning connects the them. The seen does not resemble the unseen. We INFER much in astrophysics, anthropology , etc. It is a lot of good guesswork.
Even a sunrise – if we witness it in orbit it may not occur or may happen once every 90 minutes, not the usual every 24 hours like on Earth. The future does not resemble the past. We know this in science and we know it intuitively as well.
The world is very hard to navigate, we are just humans- basically ape like creatures tinkering around. We are not nearly as advanced as these dopey science bloggers think. We are 100 years at east from being Type 1 civilization status. If aliens ever knew of us, they probably would view us as primitive as we viewer, say, the worms that come out after a huge storm.
@Bella, may I ask what you eat? Gluten foods seems to be controversy, some can eat it some cant (Matt you get worse astma or how was it?). I have excluded it for now but life sure is a bit more dull without freshly baked bread and butter (european grown, organic, home made). Just not sure whether it will impact health or not. Afaik gluten has caused me no problems in the past (lived 2 years w/o no issues reintroducing). On the other hand, i used to beleve veggie juice was the bomb (as part of an otherwise veggie filled diet) ????
Liz, I have to avoid gluten because I’m celiac but I do eat gluten free rice based white bread every day. In hindsight my celiac seems related to my use of retin-A. I thought that years before I even heard of this theory.
I mostly eat, beef, bison, tilapia, scallops, a little pork, turkey and chicken every now and then, rice and rice products like noodles, white potatoes, mushrooms occasionally beans like great northern, pinto or black and some low A fruit like pears, raisins, dates, figs, apples, pineapple and grapes. I drink lemonade, coffee, tea and some cola. I usually get about 1-4% of the DV of A according to a nutrition calculator. Some days zero.
Thanks Bella :)
Similar to me besides the pork. I have included yellow onions, white cabbage and garlic as well. Will subscribe to dr G’s list a month as well out of curiosity.
I have added in more fat from macadamia and olive oil after asking Grant in the forum and that really made an immediate difference. Thick phlegmy nose and throat much approved and energy has come back a bit as well (i was not too low on calories). I dont have celiac but has excluded bread for now. Will probably include it again soon to see if I react to it.
That’s great Liz.
I’ve continued to adjust what I eat over the past 5 months. I think there’s some individual variations in what people tolerate and I’ve noticed some things I ate early on I don’t really feel my best eating now like dark chocolate and coconut products. They aren’t as bad as something with lots of A just not great. Corn products like tortillas, chips and grits seem fine too I just don’t have them everyday as a staple.
Macadamia nuts and olive oil have always been fine for me. I’ve pretty much gone back to olive oil as my main fat with very small amounts of butter.
What we THINK exists is physical reality itself, the universe, as David Gross put it. All our “laws”( they are not actual laws) , and theories ( theories are just made up constructed, invented fallible human models, crude approximations, this holds true even for our best models, they are RIFE with errors) are fallible conjectures, perfectible, provisional tentative, that we fully expect these models to be modified or thrown away with future advances. So, it is hard to say IF the laws of physics even really exist, says Gross. OUR human observations certainly are NOT the real laws or principles of Nature. Feynman even said that. This is why we find the “laws” to be WRONG- Newton’s Boyle’s Ohm and on and on. “What law has ever been right?” , asked Alan Guth.
The so called laws or principles of physics are what WE say and they are only SHADOWS on the wall of the cave of underlying deeper reality that we really think exists- Nature and the universe itself, physical reality. We cannot say the
“laws of physics” ( principles are a better word- all our theories and laws are super fallible MODELS only models, pictures etc.) exist in the same sense that physical reality does. They are more like just human mathematics that simplifies complex Nature for us.
These points are totally lost on Kevin Hall, GUyenet, Mike Rosenbaum, Jamie hale, Lyle mcDonald et al etc etc.
Me thinks you’re being sarcastic but anyway I’m glad someone is delving deeper into the theory.
I had thought that it would be hard to get much liver before modern times considering animals only have one liver. Garrett Smith NMD mentioned this and I was glad to hear it had crossed another persons mind.
Dr Garret just such a genius making all these “connections” on the spot just talking about it, we’re so lucky he’s gracing us with his holy presence.
My above reply is to Realtalk.
Matt:
Just wondering how the vitamin A theory fits in with your refeeding plan to raise the core temperature. I haven’t seen anything on Dr. Garrett’s forum about temperature.
Also, we have been doing the refeeding now for 1 month, have seen no increase in our temperature. One thing that has happened is I now have heartburn every day for most of the day and night. Have you heard of this as a side effect of “refeeding” or what could be causing this?
Matt,
Would you consider a new post on non-diet related ways to improve health? You posted a while ago about the benefits of chewing. In that post, you made the comment that Weston Price seemed to overlook chewing in drawing conclusions about the reasons for the excellent oral health of the primitive people he studied. I think he may have overlooked a lot more. He compared the health of siblings when one sibling left the tribe and adopted a more modern diet, noting that the one who left developed health problems whereas the one who stayed did not. But he failed to mention the incredible number of changes experienced by the sibling who left. That sibling was also exposed to new and different bacteria, stresses, customs, clothing, and all manner of lifestyle changes. It would be impossible to conclude that the changes in diet alone accounted for the sibling’s declining health. It could be any number of things in any combination.
I’ve very much enjoyed the discussion about excess vitamin A possibly contributing to modern health problems. But I think there must be more to it than that and I think that at least some of today’s health issues in developed countries are probably the result of many things not related to diet.
I also think it’s impossible to return to the ways of old before heart disease, cancer, diabetes, obesity, etc. were so prevalent. But that doesn’t mean that we couldn’t figure out things would help us be healthier. For example, I’m doing research on and experimenting with red, near infrared light therapy. I believe I’m getting a lot of benefit from it. I’ve also been reading about external counter-pulsation (ECP) therapy, which I have not tried. I think ECP is fascinating because you get the benefits of exercise without stressing the body. I read in one place (but now I can’t remember where) that near infrared light may produce similar results. You talked a great deal about the importance of adequate quality sleep in your e-course. Lianda promotes meditation for health. There are probably a lot more things that we don’t know about or barely know about that could be beneficial. Could you expand on any of these or discuss some other practices that many of us may not be considering in our quest for health?
Jeanne,
One lifestyle thing related to sleep that I’ve found very helpful is Inclined Bed Therapy developed by an engineer Andrew K Fletcher. Apparently some people used to sleep at an incline in the past because ancient Egyptian beds were discovered with a 5 degree incline just like he recommends. It’s supposed to help with circulation (both blood and lymphatic) and provide mild traction. I no longer have problems with a pinched nerve after sleeping inclined. It’s definitely worth reading about and considering since it’s basically free. :)
Thanks Bella! I’ll definitly check it out.
I’d certainly like to. As I’ve concluded with most of my health, it seems that overwork and undersleeping is at the core of most of my problems. If I’m sleeping great and relaxing I feel pretty amazing in almost every regard.
Matt,
Do you feel like you may have done some permanent damage to yourself, with the many years of overwork and undersleep?
Is it pretty easy for you to maintain your health, if you have a day or two of stress and/or a night or two of poor sleep? Or, do you regress pretty quickly and take a while to recover?
I get the sense you have to be pretty careful, but that’s just a guess, as I don’t recall (or, I missed) your writing about it in great detail. But, I know you’ve at least mentioned your past overwork/undersleep in passing.
Still, I guess it’s better to be financially independent and be able to manage your lifestyle as needed, rather than working some stupid office job and having to navigate sick time and the other dumb things that go along with it.
I always wish the best for you and yours.
Carl
Yeah, gotta be pretty careful still. It’s about threshold, and that threshold does increase and decrease in response to certain things. Right now I’m on a really long camping trip and getting around 10 hours of sleep per night, spending most of my time outside, happy, and eating a pretty non-stupid diet (no macro restrictions, lots of calories). Doing so has more than tripled my threshold for the “stress” of exercise and work.
I certainly understand the threshold concept. It’s been over five years for me and I’ve still got to be very diligent with my schedule — sleep, food, exertion, etc. (Even then, it’s far from perfect.) Though our “conditions” may be somewhat different, it seems we all have to manage many of the same underlying concerns.
It sounds like your camping trip is going well. I’m happy to hear it. Hopefully, you’re someplace warm. But, I also recall you spent time in Colorado growing up and did a lot of outdoor activities in the winter. So, maybe that’s a possibility, too. I sure as hell haven’t eaten enough for that, because I’m cold! :)
Thanks for the reply. Be well and stay safe.
Carl
Can being in cold weather decrease metabolism? Is it better for metabolism to stay in warm climate/ heated buildings? Maybe I’m reading your conversation with Carl wrong. What am I missing here?
There are mixed beliefs about cold/warm weather and metabolism. I wrote a post about Cold vs. Hot water thermogenesis a while back which I’d say is still in line with my current beliefs and experiences. Out camping now I notice that cold weather is much worse for metabolism. Water retention and weight climbs noticeably during brutally cold, cloudy, and/or windy days.
Matt, would you mind posting that link on your hot/cold weather article please.
Buttered Biscuits,
I searched the blog and found this:
Hot Water vs. Cold Water Thermogenesis
http://180degreehealth.com/hot-water-vs-cold-water-thermogenesis
This Vitamin A topic (here and in previous threads) was really a catalyst for me to rethink the use of supplements. As a result, I stopped taking them.
I didn’t notice any effects when taking them…or, after a few months of stopping them, either. Of course, I have no way to know if continuing them would have been beneficial or if stopping them might be foolish.
However, it seems reasonable to conclude that what’s in supplements isn’t the same as what’s in food. Not exactly, anyway. Certainly, some of the doses can be unnatural.
I was only reminded of this thread, while reading the following post by Vegan Doctor Michael Klaper, MD:
Rethinking Multivitamins
https://www.doctorklaper.com/multivitamins
I’m thankful to those who first raised the issue, to Matt for writing about it, and to Matt and Dr. Smith for the podcast on the subject. The conversation led me to reconsider supplementation in general (vitamins, minerals, food fortification, etc.) and, ultimately, to stop supplements.
Perhaps I will employ some type of supplementation again, in the future. But, I’m not sure. If I do, I’ll certainly be more mindful about doing so, thanks to this blog.
Wishing you all a Happy, Healthy New Year.
I am really sold on this but I am waiting for the aftermath. I volunteered for the experiment but I was too late. I would have made a good’lab rat’. It would take me some time to find the big cheese.
I listened to this podcast mid-November last year and I could relate to almost every item discussed. For starters, I juiced kale for a week but it didn’t do anything (eczema). I bought grass-fed london broil(primal blueprint), and I overcooked it. I boiled a big fatty pot of pork ribs. I tried cod liver oil and cottage cheese with flax seed. Then I ate liver every month for 3 years.
The journey towards healing is loaded with deception but I am not getting the same vibe with this Vitamin A stuff.
Back to the point, I think I began experimenting with ‘NO-vit-A’ in September when the first Matt Stone e-mail emerged. I thought why not, I am not a big fan of tomatoes and raw kale anyhow.
About a month later, the worst thing happened to me. I got some major health problems like severe insomnia, I would stay up all night. It was a nightmare.
I lost my job! Well, the last part was a huge relief, haha. However, is it a Vitamin A DETOX symptom? I would have been OK with some eczema on my eye. But this was outstanding.
In conclusion, I think my refeeding habits got out of hand such as drinking too much milk, or eating too much fiber, low-carbish habits returning. I took me a month of rethinking my diet to fix my insomnia. Not to mention Matt Stone’s “Food for Mood” book put me right to bed. It’s supposed to help you relax(emotions and daily routine).
It’s difficult to separate fact and fiction because of the multiple sources of stress. In theory, I think Vitamin A is toxic to most Americans, and I try to avoid it now because its in my eggs and dairy anyhoo. Stop bashing pink salt dude, haha, it’s safer.
I really, really despise the science popularizers like Sagan and Neil Tyson, science bloggers ( usually contrarians socially maladjusted, types cynics.I really, really dislike the abusers called Science Based Medicine- they are CON ARTISTS looking to advertise their brand of medicine. I assure you the very elite physicists are very, very unsure about many topics. They UNDERSTAND allll of our theories and models are CONJECTURE and remain so. Only the state of debate exists, often transient, inconsistent and very complex. Physicists ONLY have “preferred models.” AT BEST.
Real top physicists do not overstate, nor over glorify science. I can tell you this for sure. I know what the elite ones think. They are extremely unsure.
In fact, Penrose, Deutsch and some others are SURE quantum mechanics is WRONG despite still using it. Keep n mind that is one of our very best theories/models, too.
The so-called “laws of physics” are NOT the REAL laws if such “laws” even exist. Rather, they are what WE say about nature. Our invention “Physics” has rules but they are not rules as in societal rules- kind of like principles that easily can be in great error. Error is the standard state of knowledge. . IN EVERY CASE, as ALAN GUTH said, everything we CALLED “laws” were shown to be WRONG.
So, physics has some CONSTRAINTS ( the best way to word it- mathematical constraints)
However, Nature may not have laws or rules. These “laws of physics ” are OUR creations, our INVENTIONS, our very fallible human attempts to try to understand the world, to quantitively describe patterns we think are there. They are written mathematically and should agree with observations. They are NOT rules imposed upon nature- the universe. Nature is free to do whatever it wants to.
However,
The universe may or may not have rules or laws or principles. We have NO WAY WHATSOEVER of knowing that. Just as a chimpanzee is not smart enough to understand calculus, we humans, too, may not be smart enough to have even a great understanding of the universe, let alone a full. We will NEVER achieve full. That is not what science can do- terms like “ultimate”, “correct”, etc. are not even terms any physicist would use. We will never see the lion, only its tail. Nature will always have one up on us. That is the very nature of our science invention. It has its limits TOP physicists feel we may never even reach Type 1 civilization status.If we will that is FEW HUNDRED years away at least
Science CANNOT EVEN IN PRINCIPLE EVER understand the “ultimate nature of matter” or reality even. The science bloggers and hokey science popularizing evangelists will NEVER tell the lay public this. I am here to do so.
We may and likely will never understand consciousness- Feynman and many others thought so. What is fundamental in physics is not even clear. Consioucness may be most fundamental of all. It is a possibility.
New advancements create new problems big time.
NOBODY, no science blogger or science popularizer EVER mentions that we not only may not be smart enough to understand the universe much further, BUT we may NOT EVEN BE AWARE of phenomena that we need to be,. In other words, stated another way: “We do not know what we do not know.”
Real physicists just shake their heads or laugh at people abusing physics or misrepresenting it like Skeptical Raptor, Yvette de’ Entremont “Science Babe” They are all hokey MARKETERS. They are so misinformed and arrogant beyond belief.
I found Masterjohn’s NONSENSE about calories in/calories out versus gravity LAUGHABLE. Gravity can be repulsive and we do NOT understand it well. We develop models- gravity, what we call gravity is an observable phenomenon. We try to develop good guesswork conjectures- models. Today we know from Sean Carroll, Thorne and other that General relativity theory is NOT- NOT really the case. They are working on models like *quantum* spacetime, The rabbit hole may go on forever- we have no way of telling. General relativity is underpinned by some model farrrrrrr deeper.
He is so clueless it is not even funny. These people are the Internet’s heroes??????? They are CONMEN who totally do not have the slightest clue what physics is.
There are HUGE misconceptions about evolution ( usually promoted by Sisson ) – that it “always is for the betterment”. No, no, no. Deustch tackles this one.
The so-called “laws of physics’ are constraints on PHYSICISTS and how they can write math equations NOT on nature itself. Colpo cannot grasp this!!!! Nor can the rude, low intelligence Yvette de ‘Entremont. I despise these clowns.Nature is st54range. We cannot predict WEATHER for even several days out BUT we can predict eclipses 100 years fro now. The world is stranger than our brains can process. Real scientists are in AWE, extremely humble and know there are things we may not even be aware of, critical phenomena that go right past us like a chimpanzee is not aware of quantum mechanics. Chimps are not working on this problem and stuck- they ARE NOT EVEN AWARE. SAME may EASILY be true for us and very likley is.
There is so much physics we do NOT know- black holes show us , their inner workings show us how grossly inadequate our understanding of Nature is. Also, it is not clear at all whether the Planck length is really a minimum. Strange stuff happens there and there may be a BEYOND Planck legth and the strangest stuff could happen there..
Also, our mathematical models are simply models they likely do NOT represent Nature as it REALLY IS. Hawkign and many other top elites have stressed this. Hawking was trying to bring in BRAND NEW PHYSICS with positing the question of whether or not a pair of particles could STILL communicate with another particle once it enters a black hole. The quantum entanglement question.
There are limitations to our brain power There is no reason our brains should be matched to the complexity of nature and all we have around us.The CHAOTIC nature of the universe is never mentioned by Harriet Hall, Gorski, CarbSane etc.
Predictability is extremely LIMITED. Newton was lucky focusing on an area where we can but the prediction is extremelllly limited in physics and science.Lord Martin rees and Fred Hopyle noted this.
What’s MORE:” UNDERSTADNING IS MUCH DIFFERENT than prediction.( as Rees and Deustch note!) Itr gets even HARDER to make a prediction on living things – we do not understand living things that well. The origin of LIFE ( origin of species is very different) is NOT know, The origin of the universe is NOT known.
Science CANNOT surmount the most important quesdtions of life. Metaphsycis deals with that.
Use this information to take on the Krieger’s, Sisson’s, Hall’s Aragon’s, McDonald’s, Colpo’s, Hale’s, CarbSane’s Fell’s, Masterjohn’s, Leaf’s ,Kinbrum’s, Kamdibe’s, Guyenet’s and Gorski’s of the world and tell em’ RAZZ sent you! Urgelt told me a long time ago these people were ALL FRAUDS.
Evolution can favour genes that are not only suboptimal but wholly harmful to the species.
Hey I have an idea for a show. Interview Dr. Smith on how he has patients with gut problems take an animal flea killer called Lufenuron. It’s not meant for humans to use which is why he has patients order it from Europe. The stool test I had after taking it to assess the damage showed it wiped out 100% of my bifido bacteria and acidophilis. It’s been 4 years and I still haven’t recovered yet. Throughout the 8 weeks I was on it I told him I was having diarrhea from it and he attributed it to “die off” and told me to keep using it. Then when the course was done and I felt like hell he blamed me for not telling him I wasn’t feeling well on it. With all the available “kill” supplements you can ask him why he takes this reckless and damaging path.
Sorry to hear that JP.
How long ago was that if you don’t mind me asking?
I hope your gut issues have since resolved, JP. If not, do you think either of the following products would help?
drwongsessentials.com/armoured-acidophilus-survivable-acidophilus
drwongsessentials.com/candessence-healthy-gi-tract-blend
Wow. Can’t say I’m surprised to hear something like that. I hope you get better soon.
Garrett Smith is a quack with a capital Q. Or maybe a capital ‘G’ for Google. The guy can’t see the forest for the trees.
Anyone getting muscle/joint pain after following the VAD protocol for any amount of time? An old injury of mine (SLAP tear in shoulder) has resurfaced and has been excruciatingly painful for several days. Taking lots of mobility exercises and stretching to make it manageable.
I think it’s pretty common for all kinds of former ails to resurface temporarily while depleting vitamin A. Dr. G has talked to me about this a lot. His wife, in particular, has had all kinds of old things come back. I can only imagine the cold stares Garrett gets when this happens, lol.
The man himself!
Thanks for the input, Matt.
Ian
I have Crohn’s disease and psoriasis and my daughter has eczema and a whole host of allergies and mysterious symptoms with no connection. She had jaundice when she was a newborn and has had health issues her entire life.
My big question is why are so many with autoimmune diseases turning to Paleo or autoimmune Paleo (granted AIP does omit eggs and nightshade vegetables) and seeing good results with reversal of autoimmune disease??? Omission of dairy?
Thanks for continuing the search.
I think I know more people who have developed autoimmune disease on Paleo than cured autoimmune diseases on Paleo, lol. Omitting nightshades, dairy, fruit juices, fortified foods, and synthetic vitamin supplements is pretty common when people go Paleo though, if there’s any connection between the two.
Hey Matt. What foods are you eating on your vitamin-a deplition diet?
Lots of white starches and sugars: grits, rice, white potatoes, oats, white flour, white sugar, brown sugar
Meat: Mostly beef, a little turkey and chicken
Fats: Butter and tallow, a little coconut oil and olive oil on occasion, and whatever kind of fats they put in the massive amounts of junk food that I eat, lol
I’d have a lot more grape juice if I weren’t out camping. I drink mostly sweetened tea, gatorade, and Kool Aid.
Admittedly, I could eat a lot better than I do. Being out camping and hiking a lot tends to drastically reduce the quality of food I eat in terms of its freshness, healthfulness, and wholesomeness. Like, I eat entire bags of mint Milano’s with my meals, haha.
Lol, every time I go camping it’s Dr pepper and taco bell
Yeah, I’ve had a couple party packs. Get a good workout from them from the sprints to the bathroom for days after, lol.
No doubt, ? haha
Going on 3 weeks with the VAD protocol. So far it’s been nothing, but misery. Hopefully that’s a good sign. I was feeling pretty decent before I started.
I’ll let y’all know if I see anything noteworthy happening around the 3mo mark.
I know Dr. G is making the “detox” phase of going low in vitamin A his major focus, so I’d definitely check his material out to see if it can help you alleviate some of the things you may be going through now.
Thanks. Yeah, I’m following the program now. Hoping to see improvements soon.
Damn! I’m enjoying those foods vicariously through you!
Laboratory-wise, is there a way to know if one should go on a Vitamin A depletion diet? Or, would testing be unreliable?
(I’ve not read Grant’s books, so forgive me if they hold the answer. I’d like to read them, but can’t manage it. Audio would be great, but print is a problem for me.)
I know Garrett is doing some vitamin A test in his office. He told me two people have actually tested in the official hypervitaminosis A range (what “real” doctors would diagnose from the test), and literally zero people he’s tested have been as low as what Grant and Garrett have postulated as approaching the ideal range to be symptom-free.
That’s very interesting. Thanks, Matt.
I hope Doc G will come back for an updated podcast, once he’s ready to share some clinical outcomes on some of his client.
And, although a bit early, please pass along a “Happy Birthday” to the Flogfather — Buck Flogging. May he flog for many more years.
I was checking out some mint milanos today, they say 0% vit a, but I know that can be misleading. What’re your thoughts on them during the 3?6mo phase?
Also thanks for your recent email it was encouraging. I’m almost 5 weeks in and it’s been rough. Looking forward to potential relief in the coming weeks/months.
Yes, there are a lot of 0% vitamin A-listed foods that still interact with vitamin A negatively (like peanuts). And some even contain retinoic acid supposedly, like casein or lard.
I’m far from a model “vitamin A depletor.” If my asthma is rated on a scale of 1-10 with 1 being completely gone and 10 being needing an inhaler to survive the night, I find that I spend most of my time between 3-7. I go to 7 from eating foods that trigger it, then get frustrated enough to go really low in A, which brings it back to a 3 in less than a week, and then once I’m at a 3 I’m too stupid to continue it all the way to 1. I start testing the boundaries of what I can handle, foods I know I can’t tolerate sneak back in, and that 3 slowly starts to creep up again.
Store-bought cookies are not something I could eat and have my asthma hang out at 1. There are traces of dairy in the chocolate for example. But I can eat a shitload of them and still be at a 3. At the moment it seems much more realistic to hang out at level 3 eating all kinds of stuff than be at a 1 and limited to a diet almost exclusively consisting of chicken, beef, white starches, and pure sugar foods with no vitamin A (grape juice, raisins, hard candy, sweetened drinks).
Hey Matt, I had an old friend who’d be around 110 today if he was still around. He had mercury injected in the 1930’s to overcome debilitating rheumatoid arthritis. Later, in the 1960’s he had a length of colon removed (cancer) and asked his doc, “did ya get it all”. He didn’t get a satisfactory answer, so he had his wife get a swab of infected pus from some patient (probably streptococcus) and had her wipe it on his stitched surgical wound. He suffered a high-fever and never had cancer again. I knew him in the 1980’s. He had done research on fever and cancer and figured why not. So, now that we all know about infection’s ability to deplete the retinoids, and none other than PubFed says it’s true; why the heck don’t you take us all on a Magical Mystery Tour of Infection Therapy? It sounds like you have your “thing” down to a science, so if a bad case of whatever fixed it, you’d be over-the-top famous (for awhile anyway, until Garret figured out a way to one-up you with a pustulant, wild-game smoothie or something, HA!!) I’m serious. Go to your local hospital and sidle-up to some inmate who’s got a raging infection. Swap some spit and go to your local fast-food joint and eat to your hearts desire. This would be a great service to the rest of us who are burning-out on PubMed blather and $99 quick-fixes. We want video evidence too. Look, if it’s PROVEN by a courageous hero (that’d be YOU) that ONE INFECTION (maybe two) can relieve us of this DIET BURDEN, then I’m all over that, and I’m sure a lot of others are as well. We will build a statue somewhere, celebrating your sacrifice (especially if we lose you in the attempt), and lobby for a National Holiday in your name. Shi*, I’ll get our local commissioners to name a street after you! Peace bro, and sign me up for 1,000 shares of the Anti-Retinoic IPO – once you find out exactly which infection works best.
Heh heh heh.
Thanks for the reply.
Fair enough. I may test the waters a bit here soon. Right now I’m dealing with some pretty obnoxious to downright debilitating inflammation symptoms, and that’s on a fairly strict diet. Once that goes away I’ll probably be more lenient.
You ever try Buteyko for asthma? I do it here and there just for the heck of it, it seems to help my overall disposition.
If anyone is interested, I know I would be, here’s what an average day on this minimal vit a diet looks like for me:
Breakfast:
Oatmeal
Brown sugar (a lot)
Raisins
Sometimes strawberries, blueberries, bananas
OR
Eggs whites, salt, pepper, steak/chicken/bison
Coffee
White Sugar
Heavy cream or Ghee
Gelatin powder
Lunch:
White rice
Lots of salt
Sometimes turmeric and black pepper
Chicken, Bison, or Steak
Dinner:
Same as lunch or breakfast depending on what I’m the least tired of
Snacks:
Homemade sour dough with lots of butter and white sugar
Bananas, berries, raisins
Blue/White corn chips w/ sea salt
5 weeks in as of now, do I feel better yet? Not really. Several of those weeks were filled with pain. My skin is pretty gross right now.
How did I feel before on a eat whatever I want diet? Pretty decent, but with random intermittent spells of joint/muscle pain and things like TMJ
I also have sleep apnea, could it be related? We’ll see.
Those fruits (especially strawberries), cream, and blue corn would definitely get me. I tried lots of butter, and I can handle it okay, but much better with none.
Tried some Buteyko. It can medicate it a little, but it’s torture and has no lasting effect that I’ve noticed.
Word.
I’m starting to think that some of those foods aren’t sitting well with me either, I attributed it to detox or whatever, but I’m thinking maybe I need to listen to biofeedback a little closer, bc some of them give me digestive issues almost immediately.
It’ s hard to get back into detective mode after years of RRARFing. Which, btw, I gained a lot of weight from (40lbs or so). But, it seems to be slowly burning away now, while following this diet. Which, despite being limited, still has room for plenty of calories.
Yeah, I think that might help Ian. It’s pretty specific. For example, I ate a giant bag of Skittles and Swedish fish last week. No issues with them whatsoever. Yesterday I ate a bunch of Starburst on an otherwise perfect low-A eating day. I was confused why I was a little wheezy when I went to sleep. I woke up thinking there must be retinoids in Starburst. I check the ingredients, and sure enough there are cherry, orange, and strawberry juice concentrates in Starburst. Skittles have no such thing. All fake shit. I guess Starburst is too “natural” for me, lol.
And yeah, it’s weird as foods that get me do tend to hit me pretty quickly sometimes.
Ha! Some skittles messed me up the other day. But, I’ll try anything twice, just to be sure.
I’m playing the same game with Dr pepper right now, hoping it goes well. It’s the little things that will get me through this process, lol.
How do i listen to this…
Anna,
Here’s a direct link to the audio recording:
https://bit.ly/2DSTPJ6
I hope this works for you.
CS
Thank you Carl!
Matt- did you notice a drop in metabolic rate prior to finding Gant’s work and uncovering the Vitamin A theory? I think you said in the prior post your asthma had flared up. I have been restricting Vit A somewhat recently- not being militant about it, but I haven’t noticed anything dramatic as of yet. By the same token I work outside and receive for more sunlight than the typical person.
Not noticeably Jake. Basically, I travelled to Central and South America for about 6 months, felt MUCH better, lost a little weight, and then returned to the U.S. When I did, I gained quite a bit of weight in the first month or two, then it stabilized. So something was going on for sure. But it wasn’t until 2-3 months later that I had an encounter with a fur-filled house, came home with the usual snot, sneeze, and wheeze, and then it just never cleared up! Normally, after a pet dander encounter I’d be fine in 48 hours. This lasted more like 48 weeks, lol.
But I didn’t notice anything dramatic until I went extremely low in vitamin A. Like none at all for a whole week.
I saw this on Twatter today…
“Golden Rice will be approved in Bangladesh for cultivation in 3 months. Other Asian countries will follow. A cure for vitamin A deficiency is finally here after 20 years of stalling due to @Greenpeace etc. See: AllowGoldenRiceNow.org”
https://twitter.com/EcoSenseNow/status/1091950653088325633
Am I the only who reads through the comments while listening to the podcast? Anyway, thanks for sharing your discussion with Dr. Garrett Smith about vitamin A depletion. It’s very informative.
Anyone with children know of a good alternative to desitin (or similar products) that isn’t loaded with vitamin A?
Maybe Aquaphor? It works for my husband’s chapped hands. It seems low A as far as I can tell.
Cool, thanks for the suggestion!
Here’s a coupon for $1.50 off. No baloney about entering any personal information. Just click and print.
http://www.aquaphorus.com/aquaphor-diaper-rash-cream-coupon
Thx!
Hey Matt,
sorry to highjack your post but I don’t know where else to contact you. What are your thoughts about post workout foods to help blunt post exercise cortisol. I read a lot about not eating fat post workout because it’ll slow down protein absorption which will slow down recovery. I seem to desire more salt post workout. However crackers, pretzels and popcorn isn’t a very filling meal. What foods do you think would be best post workout?
Sugar, starch, and salt with a little protein combined are great. I don’t think it needs to be a full meal or anything.
Matt or anyone else,
In his book on breast cancer, GG suggests that taking activated charcoal might help the body eliminate bile salts containing emulsified vit. A. I was wondering if soluble fiber might do the same thing. In particular, I was wondering about glucomannan powder. I’ve seen a number of studies that indicate glucomannan may help some people lose weight. The researchers seem to think that’s because soluble fiber makes you feel full so you eat less. But I question that idea. I think it’s not so easy to fool the body. If you’re not getting the food your body wants, it will insist that you eat more. Instead, I’m wondering if people who take glucomannan lose weight by ultimately reducing the circulating vit. A. I have absolutely no proof, it’s just an idea. I’d appreciate seeing Matt’s or anyone else’s thoughts on this. Thanks!
Jeanne,
Just last night, I watched a video in which a brief segment discussed bile acid sequestrants.
A medication that was mentioned was Cholestyramine. But, as for food, insoluble fiber was mentioned as preferable over soluble. (Both are good, but insoluble was noted as more effective.) Specifically mentioned: Fruits with edible peels or seeds, vegetables, whole grain products (oats, buckwheat, brown rice, whole wheat, etc.)
Matt probably knows more, but I thought I’d share what I learned in the video.
As for “food your body wants,” I struggle with this concept, as I don’t think I would normally “want” an item, unless I’d eaten them in the first place and created a desire for it.
That’s just an opinion and completely unscientific — but, I’ve never eaten eggplant, so I have no craving for it. I have, however, eaten cookies, ice cream, chocolate cake, doughnuts, potato chips, etc. So, I do sometimes have cravings for those. Sometimes I’ll have some, but mostly I don’t.
You may be talking about whole foods like beef or potatoes, rather than the items I mentioned. Or, perhaps you just mean more “calories” in general.
Good luck,
Carl
Thanks Carl. I was talking more about food in general rather than specific items. I do agree that I never crave kimchi?can’t stand it. Actually since eating for heat I don’t crave anything. After reading your comments I’m wondering if I should include more fiber in my diet. I used to get too much but for the past several months I’ve been having very little. I even peel apples to avoid vitamin A. Hmmm. Not sure what to do.
Hi, Jeanne:
I understand your uncertainty about what to do.
The Vitamin A topic led me to scan food labels and avoid fortified foods, as well as stopping multi-vitamin/-mineral supplements. But, I’m not sure if I’m one of those people that has excess stores of Vitamin A (or, other things) that need to be depleted. Testing is imperfect and contentious, from what I’ve read.
Most of my life, I took no supplements. It was only after trying to be “healthy” that I started taking them and eating foods I naturally shunned as a kid and young adult. And, as Matt has written, more I tried to be “healthy,” the less mentally and physically healthy I became.
As a kid, did you like vegetables?
Aside from animal meats, eggs, and milk products, I only liked corn, (non-green) beans, white rice, and white potatoes. I hated anything green and/or fibrous-tasting. Many nights, after dinner, I sat at the table alone — just me and the uneaten vegetables on my plate. My will usually outlasted that of my parents’, and, eventually, they stopped trying. The only fruit I recall eating was canned fruit cocktail in heavy syrup. Mmm, sugar. :-)
Anyway, I wonder if my aversion to vegetables was some sort of innate intelligence or just me being a pain-in-the-rear. Probably more the latter than the former.
If you’d like me to add some additional information about foods from the “detoxification” video I recently watched, let me know. It’s not specific to Vitamin A, but is more for detoxification in general.
The doctor hates the word “detox” as much as I do, thanks to the misuse/abuse of the word and the many fads surrounding it.
Take care,
Carl
Carl,
I would be very interested in your video. Do you have a link to it?
Buttered Biscuits… Mmm, that gets my cravings going.
Regrettably, the video isn’t listed publicly. It’s part of a paid online course that requires me to log into a portal to view the different modules. It’s unable to be viewed without a username and password. I’m sorry about that fact.
My offer to provide Jeanne with more information would entail me going through the presentation to the part where foods are discussed then transcribing that information into a comment in this thread.
If that’s interesting to either of you, I’d be willing to do so. I wouldn’t be able to transcribe the entire discussion — which is nearly two hours — but I could list a few things.
The online course is comprised of nearly 50 videos and detoxification is one minor component of it.
Just transcribe what you think are the key points. I appreciate you doing this. Thanks
Okay, here’s a summary of the closing points of the discussion. These somewhat answer the questions: “What should I do? And, how should I do it?”
Again, this was about general detoxification and not specific to Vitamin A. This will be obvious, given some of the food recommendations.
1. Assessment
* Possible testing (though not validated), questionnaires
2. Avoidance
* Ingestion, breathing, skin contact, olfactory transmission, vertical transmission (mother to infant), penetration of body tissues through surgery, dentistry, infection
3. Reduce Toxic Load
* Endogenous
– Address infections (GI/systemic)
– Address gut function (permeability, food sensitivities)
– Excess production of toxins (ROS, ammonia)
– Toxic thoughts?
* Exogenous
– Reduce exposure
– Emotionally toxic environment?
* Sleep
4. Remediation of Nutritional Biochemistry
* Organic Acids Test to identify nutrient deficiencies, mitochondrial function
* Treat nutritional deficiencies
* Glutathione (Phase 0 and Phase 3)
5. Actively Support Elimination
* Sweating
– Far and near infrared sauna
– 10-15 minutes/day or 30 minutes three times per week
* Exercise
– Increases lipolysis and release of stored toxins
– Increased excretion via respiratory and integumentary routes
– Increased detoxification enzyme activity (glutathione s-transferase, CYP450)
* Calorie Restriction
– 500-700 below BMR for a few weeks
– Done 2-3 times per year
* Bile Acid Sequestrants
– Medication Cholestyramine (if appropriate, see doctor)
– Insoluble fiber
– Fruits with edible peels or seeds
– Vegetables
– Whole grain products (oats, buckwheat, brown rice, whole wheat, etc.)
– 20g-25g per day
* Nutritional supplements
– “detoxification” powder, amino acids, bile support
– Resveratrol, fish oil
As for foods, here are some additional ones mentioned:
– Peas
– Cauliflower
– Carrots
– Sweet potato
– Squash
– Apple
– Orange
– Tangerine
– Pear
– Blueberries
– Strawberries
– Spinach
– Grapes
– Broccoli
To support biotransformation pathways:
Glucuronidation:
– Cruciferous vegetables, resveratrol, citrus
– Dandelion, rooibos tea, honeybush tea, rosemary, curcumin, astaxanthin
Sulfation:
– Caffeine and retinoic acid (Vitamin A)
Foods high in sulfur include:
– Meat, eggs, cheese
– Cabbage, Brussels sprouts, leeks, apricots, peaches, spinach, watercress
Glutathione Conjugation (glutathione s-transferase)
– Cruciferous vegetables, allium vegetables (leeks, garlic, onions), resveratrol, citrus, curcumin, rooibos tea, honeybush tea
Compounds that support glutathione levels:
– Vitamin B6, magnesium, selenium
– Methionine, cysteine, NAC, glycine
– Alpha Lipoic Acid, turmeric, milk thistle, artichoke
Amino Acid Conjugation:
– Glycine, taurine, glutamate, ornithine, arginine
Methylation:
– Methionine, Vitamin B12, Folate, Vitamin B6, magnesium, betaine (a.k.a. trimethylglycine)
Those are the key “How To…” steps from the discussion. I hope this proves helpful.
Regards,
Carl
Carl,
Thank you so much for the detailed info. Very interesting. To answer your earlier question, I ate some veggies as a kid. My family ate meat and potatoes for most dinners. We had a small side of canned green beans, baked beans, peas, creamed corn, stewed tomatoes, lima beans (occasionally) frozen corn (fresh corn on the cob in season), or fresh cooked carrots with every dinner. I wasn’t too picky and usually ate it, but my parents never insisted that I do so. Our serving sizes were small, For example, a small baked potato, one slice of meatloaf, and a few tablespoons of a veggie. We rarely ate salad and if we did, they were very small. Sometimes we had fruit as a side–canned peaches, pears, Mandarin oranges. We almost always had a dessert. I usually ate cereal and a banana for breakfast and whatever slop the school cafeteria was serving up for lunch. I’m 61, so this was during the 60s and 70s. My friends’ families ate the same way. It wasn’t until I went to college that I tried things like broccoli, asparagus, mushrooms, etc. I even ate mostly vegetarian for a few years believing that was healthier. I somehow can’t help feeling that I would have been better off to continue eating the way I did as a kid than to keep trying to improve on it.
I’ve been thinking about your comments about only craving foods that you like. Of course that’s true. I wonder about hunger too. We just didn’t eat that much when I was a kid, yet I always ate to satisfaction. I didn’t start to feel hungry until it was getting close to a meal time. Just as we are conditioned to like certain foods, are we also conditioned to eat certain amounts at certain times? I think we probably are.
Thanks again and best of luck.
Hi, Jeanne:
Thank you for taking the time to share your history. I really enjoyed your response.
I grew up during the 70s and 80s, so we’re not that far off. Baked beans, corn-on-the-cob, and (especially) creamed corn were favorites of mine, along with meat-and-potatoes, too.
Your postulation that you may have been better off by continuing to eat the way you did as a kid (versus trying to improve on it) is something I’ve wondered, too.
At least, up until I was about 12 years old or so. That was about the time I remember eating lots of Eggo waffles, Mrs. Buttersworth “syrup,” Kool Aid, Hungry Jack canned biscuits, Welch’s grape jelly, lots of canned Ravioli, tuna sandwiches on white bread slathered in mayonnaise, a two-liter-a-day Coca-Cola habit, Chewy Sweet Tarts, Dolly Madison powdered donuts, Hostess cherry pies, a variety of chips and dips, Pop Rocks, candy necklaces, Ring Pops, Charms Blow Pops, a variety of sugary chewing gums, Snickers bars, Reese’s peanut butter cups, Hershey’s chocolate bars, Frosted Flakes (to which I added sugar!), Sugar Smacks, Corn Pops, and many other cereals. The list of crap I ate goes on-and-on.
I was “husky” (as people used to say) as a kid, but I was actually rather muscular, active, and seemingly healthy. But, in your early teens, the body can handle just about anything for a while. Many times, a loooong while.
I pretty much ate whatever I wanted (plus the stuff my parents cooked, which, transitioned to lots of fried, deep-fried, canned, and boxed foods) through my late teen years, through the military, and until my early-to-mid 30s. I tried to do “better,” but, at the time, that meant Tofurky (barf), soy hot dogs, whole wheat bread, vegan mayonnaise, rice milk, and cereal that tasted like wood chips and fiberglass insulation.
Finally, in my early 40s, I heard about Mark Sisson’s book “The Primal Blueprint.” Then, I started eating “healthy.” (Ignoring the disordered eating, of course.) Later, I learned about Loren Cordain, Paleo Baby Jesus (Robb Wolf), and the rest of the usual suspects. I followed various interpretations of those eating patterns for about four years, before I quit.
A decade after Primal/Paleo/Low-Carb, I weigh 20 lbs less than I did in my early 30s — and, 10 lbs less than I did in high school. But, my health is nowhere as good. It’s hard to know what to attribute to food, dieting/restriction, lifestyle, stress, and just getting older.
You raised another good point about how kids eat. Growing up, my friends and I would come in to eat, but it was usually because our parents made us. We’d hurriedly wolf-down whatever was prepared, drink some sugary beverage (I never drank straight water as a kid. Ever.), and we’d go back outside to climb trees, ride our bikes, play basketball, play in the woods, etc. I don’t recall ever thinking about food, outside of meal times. Maybe I did, but I don’t recall it.
Anyhoo, take care and best of luck to you, too!
Wow Carl, I’m new here, just finished eat for heat and here I am.completely new also to the vitamin A concept. Not sure if this is me (no gallbladder but eat the rainbow). Are you able to share, just out of interest, as it sounds quite comprehensive, the name of the course you are doing.
What a long thread to read but interesting information and personalities. Loving it. Cheers. Ruth
Hi, Ruth:
Thanks for writing. And, welcome to the 180D site.
The program to which I referred is called “The Energy Blueprint.”
http://www.TheEnergyBlueprint.com
The program was created by Ari Whitten and consists of multiple modules (videos and downloadable summary guides and recommendations for various products discussed) on a variety of topics.
There are also several bonus modules included by other presenters — one of those bonus modules is the detoxification program that I previously summarized. It was designed and presented by Dr. Bryan Walsh.
Because of the immense amount of information in the program, I’m still working my way through the course. In some cases, rather than advancing, I’ve gone back and re-watched some videos more than once. There’s a lot of material to absorb and my brain was already challenged.
In addition to The Energy Blueprint course, Ari has authored the following three books:
* The Ultimate Guide To Red Light Therapy
* Forever Fat Loss
* The Low Carb Myth
I’ve not read them, so I can’t say anything about them. But, you can preview them on Amazon.com, if desired, to get a feel for Ari’s writing and mindset.
I hope this information helps.
Best,
Carl
Hey Matt
Hey, Juan here. Another interesting topic as always. Vitamin A, especially Beta-carotene, has been confusing me for a while since some regard it as the nutrient for healthy life, while others claim it as a great source of intoxication.
By the way, here’s an update on my health journey. After following your advices on raising metabolism for more than 2 years, my weight has stabilized and even resulted in a gradual fat loss. Although the rate of the spontaneous weight loss is relatively slow(2lbs/month), I’ve lost more than 20lbs over the past 7 month-ish or so. I eat intuitively, resulting into a relatively low fat, high starch, moderate-low protein and sugar intake. Not sure what to expect from here, but we’ll see.
The only problem, though, is that I recently found a cavity like structure in one of the molars on the upper right side of my mouth. The width is approximately 3mm or so. I know you’ve been conscious about tooth health and sharing ideas on tooth remineralization and such. It would be great if I can get some help from you, since I’d hate to visit the dentist and get my teeth filled with some random exogenous amalgam.
thanks,
Juan
Gelatin powder seems to keep cavities at bay for me, it even stops pain in an existing cavity, but doesn’t heal it entirely. I’ve heard oil pulling (coconut oil) or wheat grass swishing can fix cavities, but have not tried either.
You want prevent cavities from happening in the first chew hard food and mastic gum more. Chewimg mastic gum a lot completely elliminated gingivitis and my bleeding gums. You can increase the bone density of yout teeth by chewing hard food /gum.
I can second that, I cgewed licorace root for awhile to help with cavities.
Yeah, I was having some tooth sensitivity and got that to go away in just a couple months by chewing a lot (I’ve switched to a teething ring, it’s better than ABC gum, lol… they key is not chewing for muscular exercise, but focusing on biting down really hard… that’s what stimulates bone hardening, like martial artists kicking hard objects and using rollers on their shins to make the bone grow and get denser… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoCSKvz4nB8), and going really low in vitamin A helps me a lot as well. It’s kind of like megadosing vitamin D in its effects. That and getting more sleep and sunshine. I’m looking aboriginal these days and it’s only March. By July I should be eligible to apply for a Somali Pirate Job!
Please let us know how it goes Juan. I’m super interested to find out if you can truly regrow the dentin and seal up the cavity. I’ve seen it done before, but it’s still a rarity.
Hey guys, it’s been a while. I’ve been busy and traveling around places with no internet connection…To be honest, I was dieing to see all the replies.
For Ian, wow, so ingesting gelatin powder mitigates pain from a cavity huh? Perhaps it has to do with the glycine content, just like it lessens joint pain in the elderly?
Barney, your advice reminded me of my childhood and adolescense when I ate hard foods like dried jerky and dried squid (a popular snack in my country, haha) in abundance, when I was pretty much cavity free. Does your statement imply that cavities are caused by loss of mechanical function within the mouth?
Matt, how’s your teeth health lately? I know you posted a youtube video about your goal to never visit the dentist. I totally agree with you. I mean, isn’t it so obvious that drilling and pulling your teeth out is not the best solution? I feel great about the spontaneous weight loss I’m currently experiencing while eating foods intuitively, so the only problem left is my dental health. The weird thing about my tooth “decay” is that they only seem to happen on the outer side of the molars. There’s no decay on the pit of my teeth. Actually, I suspect that the cause of my tooth decay has to do with micronutrient deficiency, since my diet lacked nutrients like vitamin K, calcium etc. Also, I found out your friend Joey Lott wrote about tooth decay and how he dealed with it. I will try to take supplements with the micronutrients I lacked for a long time, and see what happens in the next few months.
Juan
Hi Juan,
My teeth are still in good shape. Just one minor tooth sensitivity in my rear upper left molar that I developed eating almost nothing but beef. That was terrible for my teeth. And in good shape despite almost complete lack of standard “dental care” in terms of brushing, flossing, etc.
I think chewing, and more specifically, hard biting, is key for signaling the teeth to get stronger, just like heavy weights and exercise stimulate the growth of new bone even with no change in diet.
But K and minerals and sunbathing for natural Vitamin D with chewing, biting, and a low vitamin A diet are probably the ultimate combination for repairing weak and damaged teeth. Let us know how you progress and what ends up making the biggest difference.
Matt, its great to hear about your teeth! For hard biting, I can definitely attest that to my own experience since I was cavity free when nibbling on snacks like beef jerky. Also, I used to chew a lot of gum, so that could’ve played some roles in my oral health in general.
For my own teeth health, I will keep you updated whenever I see some differences. The interesting thing currenty is that my teeth got a little smoother after taking this supposedly high quality multivitamin. Not sure if is has to do with the supplements, but its kinda interesting.
Jerky and gum are better than nothing, but think about an animal like a dog and them biting down as hard as they can on rock hard bone, sometimes for hours a day. I wouldn’t recommend biting down really hard on something that could break a brittle tooth in its current condition, but that’s what I mean by hard biting. I actually use a teething ring (like for babies), and it enables me to bite down as hard as I can with no risk of fracturing teeth or whatever. Mastic gum is pretty awesome too. It’s like gum but way harder to chew. More like jerky chewing gum, haha.
Hi Matt and others.
About 2 years ago I noticed with horror that all my kombucha consumption had destroyed my enamel down to the dentin on one part of my mouth. The dentist was dismissive of the idea that I might rebuild it, but it is indeed growing back slowly. I’m using these exact protocols =low vit A, 100mcg K2, and chewing sugar free gum after meals/acidic drinks, or swishing with bicarb soda. It’s very exciting to see the little white patches of enamel pushing out the brown dentin. So it can be done!
Very cool. I would also recommend some hard biting every now on then on some “chewelry.” That’s done wonders for my teeth the past couple of years, but I notice not needing to do much hard chewing when my dietary A levels are really low.
Hey Carl,
You’ve mentioned having been in the military. I was wondering if you attribute any of your health problems to that. It could be any number of things you encountered in the military–vaccines, chemical exposure, the lifestyle in general. I’ve heard of a few diseases being more common in ex-military members. And I’m not talking about PTSD. ALS comes to mind. Thankfully, it doesn’t sound like you have that. Anyway, just wondering.
All the best.
Hi Jeanne,
That’s a great question. I appreciate your attention to detail and consideration in asking.
I definitely DO attribute some (most) of my issues to the military. There were vaccines, amalgam dental fillings, wisdom teeth extractions, and exposures to a variety of chemicals, their vapors, smoke, diesel/jet exhausts, and munitions.
I’ve had folks mention Gulf War Illness (GWI), but my deployment to the Middle East was a couple of years before the first Gulf War. So, from what I’ve read online, GWI (allegedly) only affected folks starting a couple of years after our presence in that area. Whatever the case, I was definitely healthy prior to the military.
Thankfully, I don’t have a diagnosis of ALS. I do have some symptoms that involve my Autonomic Nervous System. I’ve had a few abnormal and normal Antinuclear Antibody (ANA) tests. MRI scans have showed a couple of small areas of enhancement that were reported as likely due to minor ischemic changes, but nothing unusual for a guy my age.
Two other major events was the onset of an illness/infection a few years ago which left me with extreme fatigue that has continued to affect me every day since. The following year, I was bitten by a tick and things went further downhill.
I’m still trying to untangle this jumbled mess. Due to the overlapping symptoms of so many conditions, you can imagine what that’s like. Some doctors just look at one system (e.g. cardiovascular) and tell me my tests are normal. But, they cannot explain the cause of my symptoms. Other doctors suggest Lyme Disease and/or Co-Infections, but this is a hotly-debated diagnosis (in general) and my Lyme-specific tests suggest I’m not infected. But, Lyme is a clinical diagnosis and not solely reliant on lab testing. The testing (and, treatment) for co-infections is a similar quagmire, with false negatives, false positives, questionable supplements, and long courses of multiple antibiotics and/or antivirals that work for some (at least, for a while) and not others.
If only I could go back to a time where worrying about which diet to follow was my biggest issue. I would gladly make that trade anytime.
Thanks again for your thoughtfulness,
Carl
Grant Genereux was interviewed yesterday on the super human radio podcast if anyone is interested.
https://superhumanradio.net/shr-2316-vitamin-a-overload-w-grant-genereux
Thanks, Kevin.
I suffered through most of it, but had to stop. The host seems very informed, but listening to him is painful. All the supplement ads and his mentioning Shawn Baker further eroded any desire to complete the interview.
As for Grant’s hypothesis, it seems undeniable that he’s benefitted from his dietary changes. Others seem to be improving, too. As for whether Vitamin A is a “toxin,” I’m not smart enough to know. Anything is possible. I do appreciate the fact he wasn’t trying to be alarmist and claim it’s a poison for everyone in all instances in any dose. He states that our bodies are able to handle it, provided we don’t get into a state of Vitamin A overload in the first place. Like the host stated, though, the same could probably be said for any other number of items.
I’m still interested to hear an update from Dr. Smith, since he’s leading clients through a Vitamin A depletion diet and monitoring their labs. Plus, the anecdotal stories from other 180D blog readers is also worth reading.
Yeah I couldn’t get past the first break. Why interview someone if you think you know all the answers already?
I listened to the whole thing. Quite painful. Funny to hear him try to educate Grant on vitamin A, as if Grant hasn’t studied it more than just about any living human, lol.
Hi Matt,
You are the ONLY good, honest guy in the Blogopsphere. The ONLY blog where good discussion happens. Deep discussion, creative ideas, good exlanations ansd a give and take between theory and experiments are how we humans make progress, not debates like Aragon et al. do.
There is no hope for Marion Nestle, Kevin Hall, Lyle McDonald etc. They are not at all interested in learing. They IFGNORE HOW our IMMUNE SYSTEM is very involved ( at least up to 40 % involved in the regualtion of our body fat and overall composition.
Direct experience is very important. The Internet is the first time in history we have laaaarge amounts of information about drug side effects for instance- it isn’t censored or blurred by drug company sponsored invalid dubious garbage studies. Doctors do not seem to realize people are different, we all respond to various drugs differently-variation.This isn’t like designing some rocket for tremedous speed etc.
It’s an irrelevancy. It’s not at all any kind of intrinsic propty of an object , including people. Weight is ENITERLY DIFFERENT from mass. BMI is just completely erroneous invalid tactic/trechnique so typical of the medical profession. There are small appearing BUT PRETTY fatty humans as well as laaarge lean humans- think Shaq from 1994 on the Orlando Magic. Weight just does not at all address what the body is composed of at all.It’s a force. It’s measured in Newtons.
P.S. Thanks for a renewed inspiration and passion for Larry Bird’s performances. I think GRANT HILL was VERY SPECIAL -player-farrrrrrr superior to LeFlop/LeBrat as far as individual skills- NO contest ! Hill was AMAZING. Who is a toxic teammate, very overrated in a watered down league , holds the ball and does NOT make others better, has poor fundamentlas travelling,footwork, etc. And Harden- O.M.G that guys takes 5 steps every day! NBA= a joke these days. Embiid has talent, Luca Doncic, too. I approve of their shooting form. Most NBA players have baaaaaad shooting form- including Wardell Curry ( his off-hand is a huge problem now and then-but keeps his form for free-throws usually) – who airballs more often than one may think and is inconsistent The Europeans ( Dirk, Ginoboli, Luca etc.) and Africans ( Embiid/Hakeem) have better fundamentals.
Hello Everybody:
Take this and cram it up the bungholes of Lyle mcDonald, ASragon, Leaf, Hale, GUyenet, Hall:
Listen at the 48 second to 1: 12 second mark.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUn2izowBkw
Lyle’s article about me is utter nonsense – McDonald is a very dull intellect. McDonald is completely wrong. He is liekning energy to some thing that is misterious or intangible or ethereal like radio waves WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!!!!!!
(Radiowaves, UNLIKE energy, are STUFF that is invisible but there) Lyle , Hall and GUyenet are CLUELESS on he topci of energy.
In physics, energy is a NUMBER. ONLY a number. Som,e “completely fictional abstract characteristic” ( but very useful- but NOT particularly fundamental )
You eat FOOD- MATTER- ATOM,S There is NO extra stuff called energy- it is a FICTION. Calories, joules, ergs, inverse fermions do NOT exist- nor doe “energy” in itsef. These are useful FICTIONS. Calories could be used to measure output of a nuclear device. Inverse fermions could be used for food. Calories are BNOT intrinsic to food in ANY way and many phsycists WANT TO GET RID OF calroes ENTITRELY.It is a vry old unit. Energy and its various units ( far too many of them) are FICTIONAL enitrely. Just a useful construct people made up to bookeep.
Electricity is NOT energy- electticity is STUFF and can act and harm you- volts are a measure of TESNION, NOT energy. tesnion and forces can harm you , too.
HOWEVER, Energy is JUST A NUMBER.
This physicist says it here. I have not rpeviewed the entuire video but he is stressing energy is not at all ANY kind of stuff or thing-neither tangible NOR intangible NOR mysterious. Energy is a human invention- a conveninence we inveneted. The phony Taubes bashing gurus ( while insulin is very important alone it is not the solution-but Tauebs iverty brihgt and creative and gets the ball rollin for PRGRESS) have been LYING to you for a very long “time”. haha.
Physics is VERY controversial, UNLIKE what GUyenet says. Physicists do not udnerstand time, IF it even exists, nor do they even knmow of the Universe had a beginnng or not. Avoid all the TYson and Sagan crap- the Pop-Sci nonsense. This video is kind of pop-sci , too, but at least the presenter gets it correct about energy…
It’s not that my pet cat is stuck on a calculus problem-he is bnot even aware that calculus is a method-mathematics in general. Our own methods- mathematics- are useful bu there is nor eason it should be intrinsic at all to the universe. Even physicist, Brian Greene, notes this.
We still donot know what matter really IS- we likley will never know. The ultimate or “most fundamental” or deeeepest solutions/realizations/s are not even possible with regard t matter or any other phenomena.Just as cats are not even aware 9of advacned mathematics, let alone bale to do it, we, too , may simply not be smart enough to grasp the unievrse- as it REALLY is – IF such a deeep level even exists.
People are people! . LOTS of dogmatism exists in science- lots of backstabbing and politcis and censorphsip. They HIDE behind “peer-review”, an institution where there is LOTS of evidence/experience that it DOES NOT WORK.Numerous former editors spoke ou tabout this- gatekeepign goesd on. Brilliant papers ar rejected, JUNK is let in. It happens quite a lot. Former BMJ editory expressed this!
UNETHICAL SHENANIGANS ARE THE HISTORY of science.It would be NAIVE to think otherwsie, I was ONCE naive. I have elarned though. There is so much CORRUPTION and AGENDA and rpeserving status quo.
Lord Kerlvin was brillianly making up a KNOT theory/model fo matter- simplistic and beautiful ( knots of spinning vortices)BUT he was shunned and attaked by those PETTY humans ( back then) who supported Dalton’s atomic model. POLITICS is ionvolcved in EVERY human endeavor. Look at what goes in the medical profession – BMI nonsense( which also does NOT account for the observations how AS humans age they lose muscle and usually REPLACE it with FAT- even at the same “weight”, denial that Lyme is chronic, the complaints go on and on. All policis. There is no support for MUCH of what doctors do. Probably only 30 % isquality- according to Greek re4searcher John Ioannidis Look at all the peopel chemotherapy ahs killed. It is a JOPKE. Hopefully in the future we will work with T-cells to fight it. 500 years from now they will lAUGH and viw chemotherapy like we view the blood letting of George Washington whihc I believe killd him.
Even the statement “I weigh 220 pounds” is very incorrect and nonsensical. Weight is expressed in NEWTONS, it is a FORCE- mass is VERY DIFFERENT from weight I weigh 978 Newtons is the correct vernacular. On JUpiter I would weigh 2,437 NEWTONS : ) Or on the Moon I would weigh 160 newtons.
Weight is an IRRLEVANCY an can CHANGE INSTANTANEOUSLY , it is not at all a property of a body. Stand on a scale in a falling elevator, or stand on a scale in water- in the sea LOL !!!!
String theorists propose matter at incredibly small levels- the smallest known level- are pieces of STRINGS?! We really have no way of knowing.
Why “weight” is entirely arbitrary and a complete irrelevancy. Weight changes instantaneously.
This dude, Ken Wheeler, AKA Theoria Apophasis is MUCH smarter than those hokey guys with “degrees” such as Guyenet, Hall, McDonald, etc.
This man is a creative, clear, free, deep thinker and applies Pythagorean/Platonic retroductive reasoning, a lost art:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEPQ8TIZR-8
Regarding medicine: Nobody should participate in scales, BMI or other such nonsense. All we need is a mirror and a good eye. Even our body fat specific measuring tools have problems and are not incredibly accurate. Hopefully, we will advance in that regard, If we all rebelled in unison maybe official medical doctrine would change for the better!
Lyme Disease CAN be CHRONIC. They deny it….Doctors are generally fools.
“Lyme Disease CAN be CHRONIC.”
Right you are, Razzle Dazzle. There are lawsuits against the CDC, IDSA, and insurance companies, over the mishandling of Lyme patients for the past 30 years.
It’s good to see you back again. I hope you’re doing well and enjoying warmer weather.
I’m about to have a small bowl of inverse fermions and almond milk and go to bed. :-)
Best always,
Carl
Thanks, Carl.: ) I am always glad to read your comments. Thanks for the extra info about Lyme Disease, buddy
Best wishes,
Razz
While traipsing around the interwebs and found that the WAPF (Weird-Ass Price-Followers) were writing about Vitamin A back in 2006.
https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/abcs-of-nutrition/vitamin-a-on-trial-does-vitamin-a-cause-osteoporosis
I’ve not yet read all of it, but they seem to think that excess Vitamin A is only harmful when Vitamin D is low. They also suggest that our need for Vitamin A is higher than once thought — and that Carotenes are neither adequate nor safe.
I found the above article linked from a Chris Kresser blog post I’m still reading. So, I’ll finish it and then try to read the WAPF post.
Eventually, I’ll have to read Doc. G’s blog/forum, as he’s probably already read the Kresser and WAPF materials…and, more.
Matt: I’m guessing you don’t take any supplements, right? Or, do you take some non-vitamin supplements?
No supplements for me currently. I have taken an occasional molybdenum capsule and sometimes take Min-Col for extra minerals.
As far as whether or not we’re getting enough vitamin A, I think retinoid levels in liver biopsies are probably the most telling. Dr. G has found some interesting studies there, where something like 60% of tests show very high levels well beyond the believed-to-be toxic level. Like, epidemic hypervitaminosis A levels.
Thanks for both responses, Matt.
I go back-and-forth on supplements. There was a PBS show called something like “Supplements and Safety” that painted supplements in a bad light. Then, you have people like Andrew Saul who not only consumes a couple of quarts of carrot juice daily, but then takes enough supplements to choke a rhino. I paid to attend one of Saul’s MegaVitamin Formula courses and the answer to just about every question is “juice more vegetables” and/or “take more supplements.”
From what little I’ve read on the matter, supplements both decrease and increase diseases. No doubt the quality of the supplements matter, but even “food-based” or “whole food” vitamins aren’t real food. At least, not a complete food. Or, stated another way, not everything found in foods can be found in supplements.
A guy in Dallas (Jim McCants) had to have a liver transplant, after taking a green tea supplement. His health is still compromised and he’ll never be the same again. As one of the popular vegan doctors said: At high doses, supplements can have pharmaceutical effects. They even cited Vitamin A specifically, not surprisingly.
Anyway, I think I’d trust herbs more than vitamins. I’m not sure about minerals. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t, I guess.
Very fascinating stuff about the retinoid levels in liver biopsies. I’ve been casually slinking around Doc G’s blog and the amount of stuff he’s unearthed and posted in such a short time is remarkable. I’ve just been skimming at a high level, since I’ve been chilling out on Vitamin A foods and not supplementing or juicing, etc.
Thank you Liz. I know dr. Smith really emphasizes the organic but I’m on a budget and it seems very expensive. Did you get tired of your diet. It seems very limited. Was the diet constipating or was there enough fiber from the grains?
I hope that one day we move WAAAAY BEYOND the RTC. It is not the standard of anything. It is very outdated and many times wrong and poor quality. Further, these RCT do NORTH EPL XIAN. What is needed are MUCH better, much more improved much more creative methods to test and deeeep explanations for phenomena. We need to understand how CELLS WORK. All these studies in Colpo;s books ( not just his to be fair- many others’ books, too) a on saturated fat are pretty much worthless WITHOUT explanations.They are meaningless pretty much and not worth their salt. They are NOT weighty experiments/investigations with explanations.
We should NOT trust RCT just because they follow some formula etc. We can do MUCH better. We should always look at MANY LINES of observations not just RCT. They really need replacement with great NEW methods and learning farrr more about how CELLS WORK. THAT- THAT is what s really going to HELP.
MOST of the stuff on PubMed is wrong. Krauss , himself, will tell you MOST scientific studies are very wrong. There are many situations where the results of RCT totally misled doctors and gave them bad info for the real world. There has been really good epidemiological work in the past that has REALLY HELPED doctors weho needed to treat epidemics right away. Sample size is another MYTH and assumption. Ornish took that on wel ( I am not a vegan haha just pointing out he made good points about the myth of large sample sizes).
Harriet Hall holds medicine BAAACK ( her group) – stuffy dogmatic stuff. REAL doctors understand that her distribe is a real hindrance to progress. And effective based treatments.
Medicine is NOT science. This is not an insult, just the nature. It has a huge art component. Harriet Hall and her clan are hijacking BOTH science (being stuffy) AND medicine ( taking away the art)
We do not understand how cells work that well in general. We have no clue how nutrients affect cells and how fat cells become dysregulated either by food or many other mechanisms which I am sure there are./ if we want a truly healthful diet, we need to pay attention to body feedback PLUS have DEEP explanations for how cells are affected by nutrient we eat. The tabulated RTC trials in Colpo;s or kendrick’s books do NOT do this- Urgelt of YouTube told me years ago that these studies are pretty worthless. The do not EXPLAIN ANYTHING. Medicine is notorious for this… Paul Lutus told me this,TOO
There is no such thing as a truly controlled experiment with quantum physics and I’ll explain later once I get the quote.
The Guyenet’s of the world have a grade school understanding of science. Scientists at The Perimeter Institute and en liek Susskind, Maldacena understand science, physics. They know The Multiverse IS science. They do the best they can. The amateurs abuse POpper , even misrepresent him. What’s worse is that the Popper stuff is kind of silly, said Steven Weinberg and Leonard Susskind.
REAL science done by pros requires DEEP EXPLANATION. Recently, top guys in the field have been talking about their displeasure with quantum mechanics and how it is underpinned by some model way deeper. That the QM people of 1920’s with their , “shut up and calculate” attitudes were very wrong. We NEED explanations and great questions. What scientific investigations REALLY do is show us our PROFUNDITY OF IGNORANCE. The unknowns get aWAAAAY BIGGER after any discovery.New discoveries cause new problems.
https://www.edge.org/response-detail/25433
https://edge.org/response-detail/25497
https://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/RTC
So please explain…
I believe RCT means Randomized Controlled Trial. The reference to RTC (last two letters swapped) was likely a mistake, as Razwell was probably using the small keypad on his mobile device.
My typing error, Xisca. Sorry about that.
Carl was right. I was indeed on the small keys again. I have these big Steve Vai-ish sized long fingers. haha.
I meant to write “RCT”. Even for drug trials specifically, these randomized clinical trials are only one part of the bigger picture. We really also and even more importantly need is very detailed explanations of cellular workings, a deep understanding. I hope that day comes. It will help coronary heart disease, various other diseases, obesity and fat cell dysregulation , cancers and we will even know more about what constitutes a healthful way of eating. For now , I am hedging my bets on a low vitamin A ingestion strategy and use it myself.
I have been over 1 year into a nearly carnivore diet and I am still not that sure about Vit.A for me, as the suppression of sugars and fiber was certainly the opportune solution.
I would mix this theory with the CDR – cell danger response – theory from Naviaux, because much more than vitamin A can cause defensive responses in the body.
I still get vitamin A as I eat eggs. My dairy is not from cows. But I think I react more to casein than to yellow butter from cows!
My field is the nervous system. I always have to correct when I write “and” because my finger type ans!
Thanks for precision, and I would have been confused by the right typing too, I am not an english speaker and learn acronyms on the go…
By the way Stephanie is the feminine of Stephane… if it was a typo too!
Whatever our diet, if we do not have a fluent flow in our nervous system, our body cannot work properly.
Having had pre-birth issues with chemicals, I know very well why I have digestive issues, but this has also damaged my nervous system, which is more sensitive between conception and 6 months of age.
As we rely on our mother at this moment, the problems we have to adapt to life circumstances will increase if we do not pay more attention to the synchronization of our NS branches. Our society is not helping enough and we sacrifice this aspect of life too much.
Here is my 5,5 month low/no vit A update as promised in my comment somewhere in the middle:
Adhd – gone
Ocd – gone
Brain fog – mostly gone
Bad memory – hugely improved
Severe chronic back/spine pain – gone
Stiff joints/muscles – gone
Hair loss – much improved
Grey hairs – some are growing back dark
Ridges on nails – no change
Dry flaky skin – improved, but cyclically worse (detox) then better again.
Skin overall – extremely soft on body, face skin no longer sandpaper, some days soft, most days still a bit dry.
Eye vascularity – no change
Spider veins on thighs – no change
Fitness – huge improvements!!! Exercise no longer exhaust me. I recover super fast and barely get sore at all. I went for a run after 2 months and it wad like I had done nothing else. That was my first cardio attempt in a year. Mitochondria are working well again for sure!
Muscle gain – improved
Mood: great improvements. I am happy, joyous, no anxiety, no fear, i no longer hate people (lol), i no longer have extreme stage fear, am not ridiculously shy or uncomfortable. Much better confidence.
I have had endo surgery as well. It took 10 hours and a cyst big as a melon was removed from ovaries, as well as lots of endo tissue from everywhere, especially bladder and urether. They managed to spare my ovary. I still have endo in colon wall (did not want to risk getting stomi).
I have refused hormonal treatment.
There is still a blockage in urether but flow is good enough so far.
Now I wait and see if endo comes back ot not.
I eat 99% organic. Main staples are chicken, meat, potatoes, rice, home made bread, apple juice, oats, oat milk, bananas and a bit of dates and nuts. I do eat pickles, cookies (home made) and is no longer strictly avoiding dark chocolate. I have salted chips on occation (these are non-organic). I have beans and home made hummus periodically.
I did try ketchup the other day for the first time in 6 months and throat started itching, with coughing as well. So no improvement there.
Hope this might be of help for someone.
Thanks Liz! Promising for sure.
Matt, you’re still 100% on the low A bandwagon? Have you experienced either weight loss or ease of weight maintenance? A followup article or podcast would be awesome! :)
No weight loss at all. Some weight gain actually. And I am 1,000% on the low A bandwagon. Still amazed at the results.
Matt have you posted somewhere about what results you have seen or is it in the podcast above? Thanks
Pretty easy to explain my results. I used to have asthma. Now I don’t. It very slowly starts to come back within 3-4 days of eating foods containing vitamin A regularly (such as egg yolks, yellow butter, brightly-colored fruits and vegetables, etc.).
I haven’t had many other noticeable effects. I am able to work more lately without having adrenal burnout type symptoms with less dizziness, but nothing spectacular otherwise.
Thanks for that, Matt. I’m definitely interested in finding out more about this and am currently reading Grant’s blog and testimonials. I’m sure this question has already been addressed somewhere but I guess it’s about confounding variables… Ie how do we know that it’s not just elimination of pro-inflammatory foods such as dairy that brings symptomatic relief from things like asthma and eczema? These in particular seem relatable to dairy intake because of its mucous-forming properties, doubly so if you don’t have the necessary gut flora to digest it (lactobacteria etc). Has Grant tested for this?
Sure, I think there’s plenty of research implicating vitamin A specifically as a direct cause of inflammation. I can eat egg whites, not egg yolks. I can eat white butter. Not yellow butter. I can eat white corn, not yellow corn. And the list goes on. There is some nuance to it all of course, for example the casein-containing part of dairy is the most inflammatory, even though it registers as having no vitamin A. Butter has the vitamin A. So butter should be problematic and not cheese or milk right? But butter contains retinol binding protein and the casein supposedly contains substantial amounts of very inflammatory retinoic acid. But I don’t find dairy to be nearly as problematic as brightly-colored fruits and vegetables. Orange juice, papaya, strawberries, tomatoes… these things illicit an identical reaction as eggs and dairy but a STRONGER one I’ve noticed. Anyway, as with anything, consider the possibility and keep exploring and asking questions, remaining open to alternate explanations.
Buttered Biscuits… we do not need fiber…. If you are constipated, this is from your nervous system that is not enough in rest and digest. Fiber aggravate constipation because it irritates you and make you need each time more fiber. We need calm and we also need fats. We also need to digest properly. for example I am not ok with casein and it triggers some fight inside, and thus it constipates me! Fermented fresh whey and butter do not constipate me…
You said we need calm and fats? What’s calm? Is that a typo?
No typo, you need to be calm when you eat and digest, so that your para-sympathetic vagus nerve agrees to put the digestion “on”.
Most people do not know how to really get calm, they force it, which cannot lure the body. But this is not the topic here…
The best way is to talk about nice things and be connected to nice things in the environment.
Thanks Matt, appreciate the reply. I’m now about 9 days into a low A diet and have found to my surprise that after a bumpy ride of reintroducing more starchy food like rice (horrible fatigue and joint pain etc, no doubt because I was again transitioning off a starch-free diet (mainly eating carnivore and fruit)) I have had a good week of happy mental outlook, feeling more calm and peaceful. Of course this could be coincidental, so I’ll see whether it continues.
I recently just saw the supremely arrogant, pompous, condescending, smug “Dr.” Stephanie Guyenet argue with Gary Taubes on Joe Rogan. What an EMBARRASSMENT Guyenet was! he really went off the deep end since 2010 when he had more reasonable podcasts.
I cannot believe a supposed “professional” ( Guyenet) has such a high school level understanding of science, as well as such a POOR udnerstading of obesity. He always mentions physics, too, and he gets that wrong , as well. The common way science is taught in grade schools, high schools etc. is VERY, VERY WRONG, says Sean Carroll( and other elite physicists) ,. There is no step by step “Scientific Method- never was. The whole falsification thingy is very naive and wrong. Scientists use ABDUCTIVE reasoning A SOOO MUCH. They use creative conjectures, empiricism to a certain degree, and Bayesian reasoning. This is how the PROS do it. Not amateurs.
Guyenet does not realize a lot of things: I want him one on one because ,if I was on Joe Rogan, I would have shut this guy down. As we learn more about the fundamental layers of reality ( we have farrrr to go and truly fundamental may not even be accessible to us) , the way we do science needs to change. This is what new insights ushered in. The way professionals did science back in say 1980 needs to CHANGE, ti is OLD HAT.
Physicists realize this. Guyenet’s FETISH for falsification is holding science BACK. It is a silly view held ny AMATEURS. Elite geniuses such as Steven Weinberg, Leonard Susskind, Sean Carroll ( some of the top physicists n the panet) and some other top physicists have noted that the whole Popper criteria of falsification is both NONSENSE and SILLY. No theory is ever falsifiable as Sabine Hossenfelder has pointed out , too.
Regarding obesity, we do NOT need lots of NON-explanatory studies, statistical studies etc. outdated RCT. What we NEED are detailed quality CELLULAR studies as to how fat cells behave, how they become dysregulated. There are hormones being discovered that we never, ever knew existed. I am not surprised at all. I am surer these hormones are ALSO very important towards causing obesity. Insulin is one of them and very important – but it goes farrrr deeeper hormonally. We HAVE SEEN , using high resolution microscopy insulin causing fat cells to TAKE IN GLUCOSE.
Guyenet does not realize that spamming non -explanatory studies, poor quality, explainless statistical type studies with lots of “teh refercnez” does NOT equal ANY type of sound argument. When a field starts out with a WRONG PREMISE ( which is Taubes’ argument about the claore model) subsequent research is POOR. it is en entire field or a large group of that field all asking what cheese the moon is made of. As Lawrence Krauss has stated: MOST published research is JUNK- MOST of that stuff on PubMed is incomplete, very faulty or plain JUNK wrong.
Guyenet does not grasp that scientific research is NOT ti for tat tading studies. We search for OBSERVATIONS AGAINST- AGAINST being the key word. We do NOT trust in evidence. Evidence, data etc. are JUST THAT- ONLY. Evidence NEEDS INFERENCE, INTERPRETATION, INTUITION, etc. There is lots of “evidence” for ANYTHING- flat earth,
What we look for is DEEPLY EXPLANATORY hard to varty EXPLANATIONS. We search for evidence AGAINST- WEIGHTY evidence AGAINST a model. NOT all that supports it. New days in the future came up with a wider perspective, better experiments and seeing how we were wrong. Neil Tyson does not grasp this either. Feynman did. Sean Carrol does!
We search for WEIGHTY observations. That severe obesity is seen in DESTITUTE POVERTY is the ultimate DEBUNKING of the calorie model.
Using hardcore Platonic/Pythagorean RETRODUCTION we can try to understand and explain obesity by understanding what obesity is NOT. First understand obesity by understanding WHAT IT IS NOT !!!!!
Namely, mere overeating. Many obese people do NOT overeat. We KNOW that view is wrong. GUyenet and his laughable food reward as a cause model is TRAPPED int eh dogmatic thinking and incorrect thinking that obesity . Obesity has NUMEROUS CAUSES. Bad genetics, gene defects, medications, unfortunate intestinal microbiota, maybe even toxic exposures.
In my travels I have seen thin bum after bum, as well as general regular vacationers eat UBER-REWARDING food in significant quantity yet are normal to lean.
As Dr. Lawrence Krauss has pointed out, the principles that govern cair, tables, planets , stars may be DIFFERENT from those that govern biological life. Learning about obesity involves LEARNING ABOUT FAT CELLS’ DYSREGULATED diseased state. CELLULAR studies are what are needed, new creative methods. Guyenet needs to STOP trying to sound authoritative using fancy terms and stop trying to impress NAIVE lay audiences by isign the term “metabolic wards’ These studies show nothing. Cheating IS possible by the way. These “studies” are HOSPITAL studies , that is it. They are conducted with a wrong headed premise and VERY OFF MEASUREMENT WISE. NOTHING SPECIAL ABOUT THEM,. CONTROLLED EXPERIMENTS DO NOT EXIST AND MANY PHYSICISTS HAVE COMMENTED ABOUT THIS.All the particles they are studying etc- the equipment , everything involved in the experiment are SUBJECT ( and PART OF_) THE SAME principles they are trying to FIGURE OUT. THIS IS EVEN MORE THE CASE IN BIOLOGY WHERE MILLLLLIONS OF FACTOR ARE ALWAYS PRESENT.
@@@@ There is NO joule or calorie energy EVER, EVER being converted into matter or tissue in a human body.Calories are FICTITIOUS AND CANNOT- CANNNNOOOT ACCCCCT!!!!!!! Energy is a MADE UP HUMAN INVENTION AND CANNOT ACT on objects. It is a made up convenience. Matter is stuff, radiation is stuff, energy is FICTIONAL.Energy is NEVER ANY EXPLANATION for any phenomena.
These in-patient HOSPITAL STUDIES are extremely approximate. Calculating joules, inverse fermions or calories is well known to be difficult and very INACCURATE. Calorie labels are OFF by as much as 85% too little. JUST because they do these studies IN A HOSPITAL or CALL THEM FANCY names like “metabolic ward” does NOT make the situation ANY more magical.The calculation of calories is NOT somehow more accurate. It is the SAME LIMITATIONS. These calculations are WAY OFF. THEY ARE GROSSLY APPROXIMATE at best. FURTHER, destitute poverty is the ULTIMATE TEST of the caloric model. These studies are NOT allowed to even attempt those conditions for legal and moral and ethical reasons. NOR could they. Being out in the wild with destitute isolated poverty is a horrid hum,an condition.I feel for them! They are STARVING YET OBESITY IS PRESENT. THIS SI DEVASTATING to Guyenet case TAUBES BRINGS THIS UP!!!!! This all fits in with EXPLANATION. We know from better studies that those with GENE DEFECTS WILL- WILL be severely obese IRRESPECTIVE of food intake.
THAT POWERFUL OBSERVATION ALONE DEBUNKS the crap research that constitutes these hospital studies. We need to GET RID OF THAT SH@T AND START LOOKING AT EXPLANATORY CELLULAR LEVEL STUDIES. The type with high resolution microscopes.
Keep in mind out BEST scientific theories in physics are VERY APPROXIMATE ONLY.
This is soooooooo much deeper than peopel realize. THE IMMUNE SYSTEM IS POWERFULLY INVOLVED in your fatness.Dr. Donal O’Shea is doing great work. Gueryemnt has gotten NOWHERE in over a decade. That should tell you somethign.
I KNOW obesity is poorly understood,. I know that make overeating has been debunked by scientists. Overeating is NOT SUFFICIENT ( in the exact words of Dr Jeffrey FRiedman- NOT SUFFICIENT BEING THE KEEEEEY WORD!!!!!) to cause severe obesity. OTHER things must be there.
that food reward, while various things are rewarding is NOT the cause of obesity, it is another play on the old behavioral theory.OBESE PEOPLE ARE DIFFERENT FROM US BIOLOGICALLY. REAL SCIENTISTS KNOW THIS.
Background food intake is just a decent BASE starting point for the average person. ( and “calories’ DO NOT DO ANYTHING- THEY CANNOT. THEY DO NOT EXIST. WHAT ACTS IS THE FOOD ITSELF- THE CARBON ETC. ) MANY normal to lean people overeat. MANY responses. Obese people , those who do ( many are not overeating) have an EXAGGERATED response and get much fatter from it than a normal person would.
Forget alternative models, even Taubes’ alternative solution. FOCUS ON WHAT TAUBES IS SAYING REGARDING CRITICISM OF A PHONY MODEL- the calorie model. The calorei model has been SUFFICIENTLY CRITICIZED for us to look for better models. It is in its death throes.
It is simply wrong. I can tell this is a religion to Guyenet et al. Look at the body language and twitches he did when Taubes told him the model is wrong and he ignores weighty contradictory evidence.It is a total WASTE OF TIME to ever engage Guyenet and his type. They are zealots and very UNSCIENTIFIC individuals.
Guyeent is a very, very pooor obesity researcher. He should change fields and give it up. There are so many better sources of info and it is a TRAGEDY that viewers watching i9t think he is good. NUMEROUS OTHER TOP SCIENTISTS AGREE WITH TAUBES THAT THE calorie MODEL IS WRONG. They just don’t subscribe insulin as being the sole cause, they DO subscribe MANY HORMONES, many unknowns hormones to being strongly causal. Guyenet does NOT THINK or debate, he spams “references” to non explanatory studies. HE CANNOT GRASP EVIDENCE NEEDS INTERPRETATION.He can’t grasp that NEW IDEAS MAY have explanatory support. Just because there is no current evidence for some hypothetical new, good idea does NOT mean there is evidence AGAINST it. Taubes has CREATIVE THINKING – CREATIVE THINKING WILL LEAD TO A CURE.
I get along very well with elite physicists. it is only these low level intelligence guys like Guyenet/Lyle McCockle who have a problem with me. Taubes is MUCH smarter guy than Guyent, flat out, I will just say the obvious.
“‘Dr.’ Stephanie Guyenet” and “Lyle McCockle”
hahahahahahaha! You always crack me up, Razzle Dazzle! :-)
Guyenet recently appeared on this podcast I sometimes follow.
The Truth About Carbs, Fat, Insulin and Fat Loss
https://www.TheEnergyBlueprint.com/dr-stephan-guyenet
I’m about halfway through it. As you might expect, he mentions his buddy Taubes.
Thanks, Karl. I try to always add humor.haha!
It;s a shame, Guyeent just doe snot realize what top physicists have stressed rto me. That alllll experiemtns, every single on rests on assumptions. We take these assumptions and try to use thewm in places where we have some confidence from the past tests. Alllll experimental results are always inaccurate ( Feynman) to some degree other sto major degree. All experiemtnal results are highly fallible. Guyenet dramatically overstates science and its experiments and the ones he cites are totally non-explanatory low level garbage conducted by researchers with his same exact mindset.Guyenet cannot garso that we need cellular studies, good microscope technology,explanations for how fat cell become very dysregulated
Those hospital studies he cites are just not useful, at least not anymore. We now know about the reduction in metabolism from dieting. We now need to go deeper. Explain mechanisms. Guyenet is “stuck in the 1700’s”
. Plus the in-patient hospital studies’ measurements are very off.Even if measurements were improved somehow in the future these studies say nothing about obesity’s causes or how to treat it.. Guyenet et al. and those types of people are the REASON we have no obesity treatments that really work,.He will be struggling 20 years from now, no progress. His whole PREMISE is wrong.he can’t see that even IF Taubes is not compleet with his insulin idea ( insulin is important but sooo many other hormones, even unknown ones are involved too) it does not at all make the calorie model right. The calorie model has been “successfully criticized” regardless of the insulin model status as a replacement model. Stephen will never say BOTH are wrong. The immune system is also involved in body fat to a HUGE degree. Maybe that is partly why sunlight causes the positive fat cell result. Sunlight affects immune system, too. Dr Peter Light will explain all this. of course, Miami are has humidity and infrared heat and that no doubt ADDS to water loss, maybe helps fat too. But the sunlight definitely is a huge factor because even in dry, chilly weather in Miami I Have gotten elaner with the huge exposure to sunlight there.Dr. Light observed how fat cells are affected. it is so nice to see my idea of the last 20 years come to light.I never was obese just had a tiny layer of fat like an off season bodybuilder to lean out.
I is not a gluttony/sloth problem. Guyenet justy has assumptions. Guyenet;s ASSumptions made an ass out of him and Kevin Hall LOL.Guyenet has an H.O. against Taubes for some reason I dislike Colpo ( or at least how he used me to promote him) but I will be the first to admit he seems to have good advice on magnesium and I like how he was dedicated in lifting. ( With coronary artery disease, I believe it will come out that it could be autoimmune- the immune system is strongly involved in plaque development- i think iron is not as much involved as immune response) At least he is not a sissy SOY BOY like Stephen Curry OR Stephan Guyenet. LOL! I have lifted faithfully since autumn 1993 as pretty young 13 year old.But I really started lifting more intensely around 1997 and on, 1998 , 1999
P.S. LGBTQ superstar, Lyle McCockle successfully vedazzled her Mangina whilst lipidologist Stephanie Guynutz carefully calculated the cholesterol level of prehypertensive Bosnian eunuchs.
Take care,buddy,
Razz
Here is why scientific theories are NOT *truly* falsifiable :
You cannot falsify theories. You could still fit planetary orbits with a quadrillion epicycles,or invent a luminiferous aether which exactly mimics special relativity. (Popper was wrong ultimately, but many misrepresent POpper Upside down. Still, POpper himself even backpedaled on his young proclamations earlier in his career.)
Says Steven Weinberg about silly Popper criterion : “This falsifiability is a SILLY criterion imposed on physical science by Karl POpper , who was looking for some way of discrediting Marxism and psychoanalysis,. Our most important theories , like Newtonian mechanics and quantum mechanics are NOT falsifiable , BECAUSE they do not make predictions by themselves, but provide general framework for m,re specific theories , whhc do make predictions. Further, IF we find some future theory that does make successful predictions about a lot of things, which turn out to be true , rather than false, and if that theory also predicts the existence of a multiverse, then we SHOULD TAKE THAT POSITION SERIOUSLY EVEN THOUGH IT CANNOT be tested directly.
SUSSKIND AND CARROLL ECHOED THE EXACT SAME SENTIMENTS.SUSSKIND IS A GENIUS. TRULY BRILLIANT AND A TOP professor as well.I HIGHLY recommend hsi String Theory talks. And interviews. AdS/CFT is the deepest principle we know of in physics.
As DAVID DEUTSCH KNOWS ( but Guyent fails to realize) LOTS of BAD/unreasonable buffonery ideas are “testable” . By bad I mean The sun will burn out next WEdnesday” That is testable but crap.Any bum can proclaim that.
it wouldn’t even be funny. GUyenet and his associates wouldn’t last TWO SECONDS with the geniuses that are Susskind, Maldacena etc. Stephanie Guynutz was trying to be alpha male with Gary. A REAL; apha is confident and laid back.Being in he eh same room with an intimidating intellect, just by his or her mere presence intimidates a bit – that is a REAL alpha. Boy was he condescending and rude to Gary.
Man, IF I was there I would have SHUT Stephan Guyenet DOWN INSTANTLY and not taken any of that poop . He was wrong about soo many things. Falsification, cosmic rays odd analogy, numerous points.
SCIENCE IS LOT OF ABDUCTION, INFERENCE, INTERPRETATION. We do NO “SEE” the nuclear reactions inside of stars ,YET we know about them,as D. Deutsch notes!
THIS man is a TRUE intellectual NOT Stephanie Guynut, Lyle McCockle, Tricky Dick Nikoley or that Tabues bashin clan of his.
Stephan was wrong about the car analogy ( engine strength, body design, wind conditions/environment, air intake are the sorts of qualities that determine the speed of the car, NOT the driver. I could beat Mario Andretti in the land record holder vehicle ( and I am a TERRIBLE driver , jus zero talent , but careful. I would crash it. But I still would go faster than Mario in a cheap car.
I would be a bit intimidated next to Roger Penrose. I would last 120 seconds, Stephanie only 5 seconds LOL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Just had to write what I got got: Sorry, whoops:
This is WHY “evidence” per se is NOT what it is about. It is about EXPLANATION , interpreting data and evidence. Inference, too.’We SAW how Uranus was doing something funny, being pulled out of its normal, planetary orbit. . Then we inferred another planet exists – NEPTUNE. That would explain the for the phenomenon.
Gravity waves were inferred, predicted by Einy
Neutron stars were REGARDED as “science fiction”
Higgs particle etc.
The list goes on and on.
Evidence is ONLY THAT, simply mere evidence, some observation. Some experimental result.
There is “evidence ” for almost ANY theory. Flat earth, Geocentrism, planetary billiards,
Armi Legge is entirely WRONG about evidence or trusting it or reasoning by it… Evidence often FOOLS US. We need DEEP DETECTIVE WORK USING ABDUCTION, induction, Bayesian reasoning a whole sleuth of creative methods.
IF we went only by sensory evidence we would think that we live on a flat earth or that any old crop circle was definitely proof of visitation, or that the sun goes around the earth , when actually the earth, the planets AND the sun orbit around the center of the mass in he solar system .
WE REASON by our good judgement, INFERENCE , detective work , creative minds , give and take between THEORY and experiments AND we attempt explanations. The axial tilt model of seasons is a good explanation and interpretation of why there are seasons.
WE SEEE rocks, with finches. WE INFERRED .INTERPRETATION.
There is some “evidence” time does not exist. There is ALSO evidence time SEEMS to exist. Physicists are torn.Some to midns feel i does. And that I should use my own good judgment about it, at least as a preliminary.
WEE SEEE severe obesity in remote destitute poverty. GENE DEFECTS EXPLAIN WHY.
The high school model of science is WRONG VERY, VERY, VERY WRONG.
Low quality non -explanatory studies in poor obscure journals are what Guyenet trouts out. He has no reasoning abilities or good thinking . His audience has the incorrect high school level understanding of science. These low lifes think debates are won by spamming as many citations as possible… No.
I have never met more physics illiterste humans than Guyenet and his audience. They cannot grasp calories are entirely made up fiction, no different than another fictitious invention called joules, or another fictional invenfion called inverse fermions. They are all MADE UP. And the SAME. Physicists would do away with the calorie TODAY if tgey had their way. It is a very old , outdated unit. Energy is MADE UP FICTION.It’s for convenience. Energy, calories, joules CANNOT, CANNOT , CANNIT ACT on a human body. Energy CANNOT ACT. NO CALORIES ARE EVER, EVER TURNING FROM FICTION INTO MATTER.ALL PHYSICISTS KNIW THIS. CALCULATING INVERSE FERMIINS OR JOULES OR CALORIES IS VERY INACCURATE AND HOSPUTAL STUDIES DO NOT MAGICALLY GAVE MORE ACCURACY. GUYENET IS LYING TO EVERBODY ABOUT BEST OR ACCURATE METHODS.DR. FRIEDMANXS KECTURES I RECOMMEND. FRIEDMAN POINTS OUT TBAT CALORIE LABELS ARE SOOOOOO OFF AND INACCURATE. GUYENET LIES. WATCH DR FRIEDMANXS KECTURES. HE AND I GET ALONG WINDERFULLY
FOOD IS FOOD, MATTER. THAT IS ALL TGAT EXISTS. CALORIES DO NOT MATTER. WHAT MATTERS IS THE SHEER CARBON ATOM VOLUME INGESTED AND PLENTY OF PEOPLE CAN HANDLE THE CARBON, PARTITION AND EXCRETE IT OUT.STAYING LEAN.
GUYENET IS DEBUNKED BY DR. JEFFREY FRIEDMANXS LECTURES. TAUBES’ BASHERS HAVE DONE ZERO IN THEIR LIVES AND CAREERS. DR. FRIEDMAN IS A LEGEND WITH A MAJOR DISCOVERY. GUYENET’S EVUDENCE IS SOOOO LOW LEVEL AND OUTDATED. I KNOW THIS BECAUSE I CINVERSE WITH TOP OBESITY SCIENTISTS.
We seek weighty contradictory observations, we seek explanations. As we learn more, the profundity of our ignorance grows. David Gross(revolutiinized our understandung of the strong nuclear force) would LAUGH at Guyenet et al. , and their audience. David Gross ADMIRES GARY TAUBES’ INTELLECT. I KNOW THIS FOR A FACT. GROSS HIMSELF SAID IT!
P.S. L.Krauss does NOT BEKIEVE in debates. He believes in DISCUSSION AS DO ALL TOP PHYSICISTS. SHOW STEPHAN THIS, PLEASE.
Energy CANNOT ACT ON CELLS. WHY? FICTIONAL.
We try to make sense of the extreme complexity of the real world. Our science is just a very fallible human detective story. Even our BEST theories such as quantum mechanics are full or errors. Error is the standard state of human knowledge. Data , evidence ONLY that. They can and do FOOL US, as Feynman stressed. We SEE if our laboratory experimemts actually match the REAL WORLD onservations. If not, HUGE PROBLEM! Our science is always a give and take between REAL WORLD observations, lab exoeriments and theoey. A give and take between alo,three and continually seeking to EXPLAIN. Mere predictions are not good enough.
We NEED to analyze and interpret data , we infer etc. We REinterpet theories, models etc. We try for totally NEW perspectives on the SAME data even-often times (not just new data but even the same data can inspire totally new ways of looking at it not thought of previously) Science is about always puuushing the boumdaries. The greatest scientists like Faraday, Einstein, Feynman came up with TOTALLY NEW PERSPECTIVES that nlew everrryone away! . They thought like a Martian who came to Earth and never oir problem for the first time ever. That ks the essence and state of thought they captured.
What CarbSane and Guyenet do is NOT genuine scientific inquiry. It is a defense of old outdated, discredited views.
I would LOVE to get Guyenet et al. one on one on Joe Rogan. He rose Gary Taubes’ coattails, as he is not anywnere near as famous as Taubes. His psedo-battle with Taubes is the ONLY reason je apleared on that show. It sickens me Mark Sisson was on, too. The shirtless charlatan. LOL!These Internet ” gurus” go around attacking high -profile people to make a name for themselves. Cough, CarbSane, cough!
My response to Guyenet’s and Colpo’s PHONY “metabolic ward” argument:
1)_ Hall is a mathematical model guy by his own admission.That is what he does ( erroneously) We humans have very limited brain power ( I bet advanced aliens are farrr smarter) Therefore, we look for “compactness” Advanced aliens no doubt do it better than we do- they probably go BEYOND math. If they ever got here or will get here, they would HAVE to have better, different models of Nature.we may never even get to Type 1 civilization status math only takes us sooo far, said physicist, Brian Green. Using math soley is erroneous. Math is a human mental construct . Our Math models APPEAR , have an ILLUSION of being successful. However, math has MILLIONS of failures that are never talked about in engineering, physics and medicine. There are many more FAILURES of math models than successes. WE CHERRY PICK areas where we can apply our human invention of math to APPEAR like it is super successful. The reality is that is not true. Physicist NOW understand we need EXPLANATION and to know WHAT these things ACTUALLY ARE in quantum mechanics. Biology is soooo complex, even more than physics, , Math is NOT the language of Nature.math ahs limitations and REAL WORLD OBSERVATIONS DEBUNK old views about obesity./ namely , Taubes’ points that serve obesity is found in the harshest conditions of abject Haiti style poverty.
To quote Einstein: ”
“HOW can it be that mathematics, beng after all a product of human thought, which is independent of experience, seems to be so appropriate to the objects of realty?”
Einy also talked of how the laws of mathematics are NOT certain to refer to how NATURE actually WORKS . Einy thought in principles of SYMMETRY, he was INTUITIVE scientist. Faraday had a GREAT IMAGINATION, too. WE MUST ASK the RIGHT QUESTIONS about obesity and Hall et al ARE NOT!!!!! WE HAVE NO GOOD TREATMENTS and guys like Guyenet are HOLDING US BACK NOT PROGRESSING FORWARD AND PUSHING THE BOUNDARIES liek the great JUan Maldacena , the physicist..
2.) These studies start off with discredited assumptions and viewpoints- that obesity is a gluttony sloth problem
3.) These charlatans love to USE and employ SUPER FANCY names to sound authoritative. They dazzle you with BULLSHIT AND JARGON…. NO, these studies- they are IN-PATIENT hospital studies THAT IS IT- evben cheating is possible( still would not matter much because these studies explain NOTHING about -They are very inaccurate, TOO. IT IS WELL KNOWN to top scientists that We cannot measure accurately the amount of calories or joules or inverse fermions in food. Labels are off by as much as 85% too little, WAYYY OFF- said Dr Jeffrey Friedman in his lecture- he presented the research showing this inaccuracy. ACCURACY DOES NOT AT ALL IMPROVE JUST BECAUSE TI IS A HOSPITAL STUDY….THEY ARE JUST AS LIMITED AS ALL measures. ALL measurements on human metabolism are VERY GROSS APPROXIMATIONS, as well as the joules and calories being CONSIDERABLY OFFF. EVEN quantum mechanics is AN APPROXIMATION at very best!!! And Q.M. is a lot “more accurate’ than calorie measuring, MY god….those dopey Colpo types… LOL.
4) Even IF they were spot on accurate, which they are NOT- not even close to accurate- these studies EXPLAIN ALMOST NOTHING abut the MANY components of obesity such as genetics, immune system and much more. They were useful for APPROXIMATING the metabolic slowdown in response to fat loss and muscle loss . But they are NON-EXPLANATORY. These hospital studies are EXTREMELY INCOMPLETE at very best AND IMPOTENT AND INEPT/UNABLE TO EVEN ADDRESS the many, MANY OTHER factors and causes of obesity( and MORE IMPORTANT factors like genetics . We know obesity is NOT all about or mostly about food. It is NOT simple mere overeating.many normal and thin people overeat.many obese people are NOT overeating . Further, even the ones who are have a DISPROPORTIONATE response ( not to mention WHY they do it is not explained ) . They get SO much fatter than those who are normal. As mentioned, those with gene defects would become ALMOST JUST AS FAT REGARDLESS OF amount they ate,.. And super skinny people CANNOT fatten DO NOT be fooled by con artists preying on a beta-male public. ALl experiments start with ASSUMPTIONS, ALL experiments are VERY FALLIBLE.
5) THE REAL WORLD SHOWS OTHERWISE- Taubes cites examples in the REAL WORLD- that we WITNESS severe obesity in DESTITUTE POVERTY is the ultimate CONTRADICTORY observation and evidence and data against the calorie model.NO cheating could ever occur in destitute poverty Taubes uses and these conditions are so poor, SO AUSTERE, that it would be unethical and illegal for experimenters to EVEN TRY. Severe obesity observations in extreme destitute, abject worst of the world level poverty is DEVASTATING to Gueyent;s calorie model case. THE ULTIMATE DEVASTIGN WEIGHTY OBSERVATION. Cheating is NOT possible in destitute abject poverty at or worse than Haiti has. We MUST ALWAYS check versus the REAL WORLD where things are extremely complex- in physics and biology the REAL WORLD is hellishly complicated. In -patient laboratory style hospital studies starting with the wrong premise mind you are NOT going to advance anything or explain anything IN THE REAL WORLD
6) WE ARE DEVOID of DEEP cellular explanations and NEW PERSPECTIVES. All the gertat advances had NEW perspectives-0 from Faraday to Maxwell to Einstein and BEYOND Einstein today. Fat cell dysregualtion is sooo pooorly understood it is like running a Marathon and being at the 400 meter mark and crawling not even walking or running….
7) Evidence, data, observations ARE ONLY THAT and just that.. THEY NEED ANALYZING,INFERENCE , INTERPRETING, @REINTERPRETING YEARS LATER WITH NEW KNOWLEDGE, WE NEED NEW PERSPECTIVES, TOO. EVEN NEW PERSPECTIVES LOOKING AT OLD DATA LET ALONE NEW DATA.Witten had a totally NEW way of interpreting the 5 supposedly separe theories of String Theory WOWING EVERYBODY.
EXPLANATION GENE DEFECTS would EXPLAIN a lot about why we see extreme obesity IRRESPECTIVE of eating ;food quantity…
8.)HORMONES MATTER EXPONENTIALLY Fat cells are GOVERNED BY… HORMONES. – steroids will DRAMATICALLY CHANGE YOUR BODY. This alone points to the DEVASTATING CASE F HORMONES TRY COMPETING using Krieger’s methods versus a guy who is DOING ROIDS. You will never win a competition or LOOK as lean or muscular as a guy using MANY POWERFUL COCKTAILS OF HORMONES.HOOOORMONES!!!!!!! I am a muscular guy bu I could NEVER compete against LEE HANEY WITHOUT STEROIDS- even with them, I have not dowen bodybuilding long enough to have hs mature muscle PLUS hormonal enhancements ( Haney is retired I am commenting on his prime) IT IS SOOO BLATANTLY OBVIOUS WITH STEROIDS THAT HORMONES ARE THE HUGE FACTOR. STEROIDS ARE A TOTAL GAME CHANGER!!!!! I WOULD NEVER EVER DO THEM. I DO NOT WANT SMALL testicles. LOL. MINE ARE BIIG. LOL MY NAME IS “BULLNUTS” at Blacks Beach LOL!!!!!!
LIZZIE VELASQUEZ’ DISEASE SHOULD BE STUDIED MORE…SHE NEEDS TO EAT EVERY 90 MINUTES TO STAY ALIVE. SHE CANNOT-CANNOT GAIN FAT. The ( misuse ) of “teh thermodynamicz” ( that GUyenet loves to MISUSE) has NOTHING to do with this. THIS IS A BIOLOGICAL ISSUE.I ADMIRE Lizzie. She is bullied but is beautiful to me,what a sweet big heart she has and her face glows when she speaks with passion.
ALL of this is a separate issue from the insulin model being right. There are MANY UNDISCOVERED AND RECENTLY DISCOVERED HORMONES AT WORK WELL BEYOND insulin- but insulin is a strong player, too. Obesity goes sooooooo deep./
9). The bran;s health is due to the IMMUNE SYSTEM – which helps prevent neurodegeneration. There is strong communication between the tow and the immune system actively takes care of the brain. Obesity is NOT all about the brain like Guyenet thinks, and further, the brain also INTERACTS and is involvement regarding HORMONES. He never mentions this, he ONLY relates the brain to the BUZZ WORD of”energy balance” Humans are ALWAYS IN NON-EQUILIBRIUM, Stephan!!!!! if we ever reached thermodynamci equilibrium we could be DEAD.
I APPLAUD Taubes’ efforts to go BEYOND the boundaries of FOLKLORE.URGELT SUPPORTS TAUBES’ supreme criticism of this faulty calorie model.I SUPPORT HIS CRITICISM OF THE calorei model. It has been successfully criticized at this point.it is a dead horse to real researchers on teh cusp of knowledge.
Guyenet/Hall/Colpo/Krieger et al. are NOT genuses or the type of geniuses to totally blow audiences away with a TOTALLY NEW VANTAGE POINT AND NEW PERSPECTIVE ON THE TOPIC OF OBESITY. They put FAR too much stock and over inflate/OVERSTATE FAULTY reasoning/ NON-EXPLANATORY “studies”, debunked old viewpoints vs GOING BY REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE , A GIVE AND TAKE BETWEEN REAL WORLD OBSERVATIONS,. THEORIES AND various EXPERIMENTS of ALL styles and methodologies.THE FUTURE BELONGS TO CELLULAR STUDIES- HOW FAT CELLS BECOME DYSFUNCTIONAL.
Please show ALL of this to COLPO, CARBSANE and GUyenet. I hope Guyenet revise his wrong direction. He was semi -reasonable in 2010 and SAW HIMSELF the FAILURES of this faulty calorie model.
Take care,
Razzi ( have to be off the INternet for awhile to do some important stuff)
I had to post this because it was so funny t me. I know it is off topic etc.:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ny4ysSjxeCVo
LOL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I hope Matt and Karl find this one amusing. hahaha!!!!!!
WHOOPS! Sorry about that. Here it is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ny4ysSjxeVo
I have thought bout this even more and just want to add this: What the supremely ignorant and smug Guyenets, Colpos, CarbSanes and LyleMcCockels of the world do not realize is this:
THEY- THEY ,TOO ,are in the SAME BOAT as Gary Taubes and they do NOT possess ANY weightier evidence whatsoever. Obesity is incredibly tricky and poorly understood by alll- it is SO poorly understood. Guyenet’s metabolic ward crap is dramatically overstated in-patient hospital studies using PRIMITIVE INACCURATE GROSS APPROXIMATE EQUIPMENT And these studies are totally NON-EXPLANATORY. WE ARE ALL IN THE SAME BOAT. Actualkly the OBSERVATIONS of obesity in severe abject poverty is FAR WEIGHTEIR data than ANY in patient hospital study- FAR BETTER. EVEN if we actually devloped far better meaning technologies. BECAUSE TAUBES; OBSERVATIONS IS NUMBER ONE- IN HE REAAAAL WORLD, NUMBER TOW- REFUTES TJHIS OVEREATING MODEL.
WE ALWAYS need MULTIPLE creative lines of data. Observational are NOT less quality- ESPECIALLY IF, IF THERE IS A DEEP EXPLANATION SOME PRINCIPLE THAT CAN EXPLAIN THE OBSERVATIONS. GEEN DEFECTS ARE SUCH AN EXPLANATION. IN BIOLOGY AND REAL LIFE THERE ARE ALWAY S A MILLION VARIABLES. WE ARE FOOLING OURSELVES WITH RCT- THEY ARE NOT NEARLY AS CONTROLLED AS AMATEURS THINK.CELLULAR WORKING TRUMP THOSE STUDIES- EVEN FOR HOW MEDICINES WILL BE EFFECTIVE. IT IS TIME TO GET INTO THE FUTURE. HOW WE DO PHYSICS IS EVEN CHANGING RECENTLY AND ESPECIALLY WITH FUTURE PERSPECTIVES
It always goes case by case and is muddy BUT OBSERVATIONAL WORK IS INCREDIBLY GREAT MANY TIMES. IN THIS CASE- seeing obesity in SUCH AUSTERE CONDITIONS totally shows OUR IDEAS ABOUT GLUTTONY ARE INCORRECT. THIS IS POWERFUL, POWERFUL EVIDENCE. ANY rational person can SE this is the ultimate starvation test.
Obesity is NOT a condition of “energy balance” 9 all work based on that will be extremely limited or WRONG) , it is COMPLEX DISEASE OF FAT CELLS GONE AWRY, like an out of control TUMOR
We do NOT need in- patient hospital studies anymore ( I will not con the public by using overly fancy authoritative words when NOT NECESSARY “Metabolic ward” is the classic example of lesser obesity scientists TRYING TO SOOOUND important… WHEN THEIR WORK EXPLAINS NEXT TO NOTHING.
. They do not EXPLAIN obesity. Sure INITIALLY, They were somewhat useful waaay in the apst when we discovered the tremendous slowing of metabolism in response to food restriction and body matter loss . ( Although that is a far cry from detailed explanations) WE MUST GO BEYOND that. These metabolic ward crap is NOT going to help us ANYMORE- we are WAY BEYOND that.
What we really need, ONE of the things is a creative methodology for cellular studies- detailed GOOD EXPLANATIONS that are hard to vary ( like Deustch notes) – DETAILED workings of biochemical cellular operations in general , including fat cells specifically and a DETAILED MECHANISM or MECHANISMS as to how they become dysregulated
So, NO , Colpo we do NOT need to cite you ANY metabolic wards studies as these were always SIMPLY in-patient hospital studies ( where cheating COULD occur unlike destitute poverty- would not even matter in a sense if cheating occurred because we would not FURTHER obesity understanding- it only would skew the result f metabolism slowing- which still is important to know- but we KNOW that -0 since like 1984…) are outdated, no longer useful- we are beyond that, have PRIMITIVE EQUIPMENT- GROSSLY APPROXIMATE despite the “FANCY name”. No, Colpo etal WE NEED GOOOOD “HARD TO VARY” EXPLANATIONS- THOSE IS THE EVIDENCE/DATA AND OBSERVATIONS WE NEED AND WE COULD EXPLAIN NI PRINCIPLE THESE OBSERVATIONS SUCH AS OBESITY IN DESTITUTE POVERTY- WITH GOOD HARD TO VARY EXPLANATIONS. That is , explaining some phenomena deeply with an explanation that is VERY DIFFICULT TO VARY in any way, WHILE STILL accounting for the phenomena it purports to explain. .
WE ALWAYS LOOK TO HOW OUT MODELS FIT THE ACTUAL REAL WORLD. WE USE THEORY, some lan work, REAL WORLD OBSERVATIONS and a give and take between theory and creative experiments of MANY natures and methodologies – blend it all together and build our VIEW AND MODELS. EVERY PHYSICIST AND BIOLOGIST KNOWS IF OUR LAB WORK OR EVEN THEORIES DO NOT FIT THE REAL WORLD OBSERVATIONS THERE IS A HUGGGE PROBLEM AND WE EFFED UP!
YOU CANNOT UNDERSTAND obesity BY ASKING THE WRONG QUESTIONS and starting with a WRONG PREMISE ( like asking what cheese the Moon is made out of?),
So, Colpo and Stephan GUyenet : . REGARDLESS of if Taubes is right about insulin ( I know it is far more complex than that) THIS IS ABOUT the issue that obesity never was an energy balance problem , IT IS A COMPLEX GENETIC HORMONAL IMMUNE DISASTER OF A DISEASE.THAT IS TAUBES’ UNDERLYING POINT- he just has HIS OWN theory as to how that disaster happens. That obesity is a disease of fat cell dysregulation of some sort is TAKEN SERIOUSLY BY ALLL TOP SCIENTISTS- the BEST ones KNOW this is not an energy balance problem. That part – the debunking of energy balance – is ALREADY DONE. WE ARE NOW TRYING TO EXPLAIN AND COME UP WITH MECHANISMS AND THEORIES AS HOW THIS DISASTER HAPPENS. The calorie model is never coming back. baseline questions about how much food somebody eats is ONLY a decent starting point and for NORMAL PEOPLE who have nothing wrong with them.
WE MUST ASK THE RIGHT QUESTIONS LIKE EINY AND NEWTON STRESSED! . EINY WAS GREEEAT AT ASKING THE RIGHT QUESTIONS AND MULLING THEM OVER IN HIS HEAD. Colpo WRONGLY labels me as an insulin guy- obesity has tremendously complex causes.. The gluttony /sloth model Colpo et al. cling to IS NOT TAKEN SERIOUSLY WHATSOEVER BY ANNNY TOOOOP OBESITY RESEARCHER who is in the know, who is a leader in their field. How ridiculous Colpo use this DISCREDITED common view to debate Taubes when TOP oebsity scientists REFUTE and always mention the public has the WRONG IDEA about obesity.
. IF Guyenet et al. wish to debate Taubes , fine… DO IT WITH ACTUAL OBSERVATIONS AND KNOWLEDGE( from TOP oebsity scientists who reveal a complex odd picture of dysregulation, gene defects, immune fuicntin, mitochondrial function etc.) – STUFF LIKE IMMUNE SYSTEM FOR INSTANCE- NOT the DISCREDITED phony calorie/lazy/behavioral model.
Guyenet is PUTTING US ALL IN AN INTELLECTUAL RESTRAINS, SHACKLES AND STRAIGHT JACKET WITH HIS OLD OUTDATED WAYS, STUFFINESS, HIGH SCHOOL LEVEL “BLACK BOX UNDERSTANDING OF SCIENCE AND HOW IT PROGRESSES AND WORKS AND HIS CITATIONS OF , AND THIS IS OF PRIME I M P O R T A N CE – TOTALLY NON-EXPLANATORY WORK.
P.S. As Michelle Thaller stated, ONCE we know what happens if one particle falls into a black hole, if it can communicate with the one right outside the event horizon- THE LAWS OF PHYSICS “COULD EASILY FALL APART: ( hey are NOT laws- they are HUMAN FALLIBLE MODELS WE THINK are happening) AND WE WILL HAVE A REVOLUTION. WE NEED TO KNOW WHO WE ARE WRONG. MEN LIKE SUSSKIND WITH USHER IN BRAND NEW PHYSICS LIKE WE NEVER SAW.
Please SHOW these gurus this, Thanks, guys,
Razz- Well, time to be offline.
Hi Matt,
I kmow this if a little off topic but: Remember this song from May 1991. I was like 10. It always was a great song to me. I hope you and Karl like it. It’s like their version of Stairway To Heaven, a masterpiece:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhat-xUQ6dw
Enjoy the holiday weekened,
Razzmatazz!
Hey, buddy. I’ve been away for a while, but I always come back to check up on things.
Oh, man, I haven’t listened to “Silent Lucidity” in many years. I just listened to it again and it’s still fantastic. This is one of those timeless classics.
It’s hard to believe it was released 28 years ago. You were around 10 and I was…quite a bit older. :-) The 80s and early 90s were really great periods for music.
Thanks for the tune. It brings me back to happier times.
I hope you’re doing well and enjoying good health!
You are super welcome, Karl. : )
The 80’s and 90’s were truly awesome! I just wish I was older in the early 80’s to appreciate the stuff. But I make up for it now.
I’m glad you’re doing well, buddy
Even Chris Masterjohn (sorry, DOCTOR Chris Masterjohn) is talking about Vitamin A.
How to Know If You Have Vitamin A Toxicity
https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/lite-videos/2019/04/02/know-vitamin-toxicity
What to Do About Vitamin A Toxicity
https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/lite-videos/2019/04/04/7558
Vitamin A and Pregnancy: Should You Worry?
https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/lite-videos/2019/04/09/vitamin-pregnancy-worry
Vitamin A and Fatty Liver
https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/lite-videos/2019/04/11/vitamin-fatty-liver
You conveniently left out Masterjohn’s THOROUGH take down of “Dr” Garett Smith’s belief that Chris suffered from vitamin a toxicity. He shreds Smith’s nonsense:
https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/blog/2019/12/05/response-garrett-smith-health
Can someone make chart with categories like they have for other types of things? Like group of foods Eat as much you want, another group eat moderate amount of these foods and also group with don’t consume those foods at all.. :))
How about this?
https://bit.ly/2WEU6dG
It many not be exactly what you are looking for, but I created a chart that lists hundreds of food and their vitamin A content. The foods are listed from low to high. Matt posted a copy of my chart with his previous post–I think the post was called “Vitamin A: Vitamin or Villain?”
Here’s the link to the 10-page chart that Jeanne was kind enough to create and share with everyone:
http://180degreehealth.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Vitamin-A-Content-of-Foods-6-28-18.docx
Thanks, Jeanne!
OMG. That’s so flawed I don’t even know where to begin, except to say beta-carotene is NOT vitamin A. None of those vegetables and fruits contain vitamin A.
There’s a feedback loop when it comes to conversion too. And you need zinc — which you get from eating too much meat — and other minerals/vitamins to convert it as well.
And I thought 180degree health was bonkers 10 years ago. It actually made more sense then. This vitamin A toxicity stuff is NONSENSE, unless of course you test and show that you do indeed have high levels.
Liver biopsies consistently show shockingly high levels of vitamin A, even among young, healthy people, and a billion fat people covered with bright yellow colored “white fat” tissue speaks volumes. I wish it was nonsense, but unfortunately it’s not. I can’t regularly consume even small amounts of vitamin A of any kind, including carotenes, without a total collapse of my health in a week (eczema, asthma, headaches, allergies, sleep problems, sore gums and teeth, severe fatigue).
Dr. Smith has yet to have a client test low on a serum retinol test even after years of eating a low-A diet. Everyone’s tissues, organs, and fat reserves are so packed full of it. Grant Genereux is the only person I know who has confirmed to have lowered his vitamin A levels to barely detectable levels, and that took 4-5 years to achieve.
“Liver biopsies consistently show shockingly high levels of vitamin A, even among young, healthy people.”
Okay, and they’re probably ‘shockingly’ high for a good reason…maybe because it helps them stay healthy?
Dr. Smith. That was funny…
And again, check out Masterjohn’s DETAILED response to ‘Doc’ Google, I mean, Garrett’s “research”.
https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/blog/2019/12/05/response-garrett-smith-health
Sorry you’ve been so sick for so many years Matt. I’m guessing you must be still very, very ill, considering it takes 4-5 years to lower one’s levels.
Not a fan of Dr. G’s calling out Masterjohn like that and trying to give an armchair diagnosis, but much of the rebuttal is based on serum retinol tests, which have no applicability whatsoever. In fact, like Dr. G reports, it’s typical when one starts restricting vitamin A to see the serum levels rise dramatically as it starts to pour in from the tissues. It’s also been shown that those with asthma and eczema have low serum retinol levels, yet the foods that aggravate the two conditions are mostly foods high in vitamin A (eggs, dairy, tomatoes, oranges, spicy foods/peppers, fish, shellfish, other carotene-rich fruits and vegetables).
I have made my personal trials… 1st, I have no problem with eggs. I have no problems with lycopen. I have a problem with caroten! And I can eat white carrots. I can also eat red sweet peppers, but not the hot ones.
I cannot have chlorela and parsley, but some leaves are still ok, so here are some conclusions:
– some other compounds seem to be protective from carotens in some leaves.
– not all types of vitamin A have the same effect on everybody.
– when you have a problem with a certain plant, how can you be sure which chemical is the source of YOUR problem?
Also, I am not attracted by eating orange color, but a lot by purple pigments.
– Practise instinct!
I am also attracted by all sulfur veggies: I eat garlic, onion, coliflower…
About vitamin D…
I lack it, even when I go into the sun. I understood why, when I did a hair test. I surely do not want to increase my calcium levels!
If you suspect any chronic infection, be sure you really have too much vitamin A before depleting!
I suspected vitamin A, about liver not being an ok food for me, but I have an excess iron due to low copper. Just a detail: high iron can also give skin problems like hives, and histamine problems. My main goal is not even to lower iron, but increase copper and increase my copper assimilation.
I would not advise vitamin A depletion for everybody and withouta further look into details. Or a try, as anyway it is easyto get back on it if needed.
Has anyone read “An Epidemic of Absence”? I get the feeling that it would be well received here. The guy talks about how having less microbes in our bodies could be the cause of AI diseases, and even went to Mexico to buy worms for himself.
I think it kind of ties in with Grant’s theory, since we use up stored VitA to fight microbes and diseases (at least that’s what I recall reading somewhere), and depleted VitA is the aim. So maybe not having enough microbes keeps VitA levels too high in our liver…
Anyway, I’m not sure about helminthic (worm) therapy. Maybe I’ll have to be closer to death’s door to try it. But I wonder if it would reduce VitA levels. If I knew for sure it did, it would certainly be easier than having to stay on the low VitA diet.
The type of worms that is typically used in this therapy is a Human Hookworm (Necator Americanus), which grows to 11mm. Apparently it can be quite widespread in some developing countries.
I have read about the book and reviews.
The 1st time I read about the vagus nerve, it was from Jacques Gesret who found a way to suppress asthma totally. Each person I told them to, who was lucky enough to live near a practitioner and tried, quit from medications in 3 sessions to liberate the vagus. Same for eczema by the way, and some people go from one to the other, and the the 2 at the same time, strange indeed?
Then so many methods love autism and make suggestions and improvement with various methods. This is the case of the protocol with sounds that established Steven Porges who emitted the polyvagal theory. Vagus nerve again…
If you want to investigate, read Veronique Mead and her chronic illness studies, she is an MD who got ME/CFS, and also Naviaux about the cell danger response. They call it CDR.
Xisca,
Thank you very much for your lengthy, informative posts. I appreciate the fact you have nothing to gain by doing so, other than trying to help others by exposing them to information that may not otherwise find. So, I thank you for your significant investment of time.
Dealing with my own issues (a bunch of Lyme-related matters), I kept going down various rabbit holes, looking for things outside of what others have been doing that don’t help but are still perpetuated as remedies, because some claim they might have been helpful. Press them for proof, however, and all one gets is a bunch of “I think…” or “I feel…” or “I believe…” statements.
Anyway, two things I did stumble upon, during my countless hours of Googling anything and everything, no matter how legitimate or crazy something may sound, I found DNRS and the Gupta Programme. Due to financial constraints, I’ve not yet been able to purchase the DNRS program, but the firsthand stories I’ve heard about the innumerable benefits have been very inspiring.
This, of course, exactly supports your comments about the Vagus nerve and the importance of vagal tone. I’ve only read a bit about CDR, but do have some videos on the topic that are still in my queue of things to watch.
Again, I thank you for your contributions and hope you’ll continue to post and share your thoughts. Being sick, I take things more serious and more personally than I did in the past and have a deeper appreciation for those who are trying to cut through the noise and help others.
Finally, I have a friend with both Asthma and Eczema. Would you have any suggestions on a website that lists providers which are skilled in liberating the Vagus Nerve?
Many thanks,
Carl
Thanks for your understanding! I was mildly touched by Lyme and just got some homeopathy to reduce the numbers… Some epstein barr, and i have some mold allergy. i am physically tired but my mental clarity is still there which I appreciate. i know DNRS and I even have it at home. I am not sure I can commit to do a routine every day as I am bad with routine! So…
It is based on the limbic brain, and I want to compare. I think the concept of triune brain is a bit artificial but useful to think about how we work, and so is the polyvagal theory, even if it has been proved wrong on some points of neurophysiology I do not understand!
Apart from physical solutions, taking care of your NS will always prove useful this I am sure! Lyme is an infiltrated attacker, and as such for sure it triggers sympathetic activation.
The vagus is important, but I think theoretically, and I am in FB vagus groups, that if you stimulate it while not cooling the sympathetic tone, the risk is dissociation and further de-sync in the NS.
I am also in Wim Hof group, and I have seen many people reporting reactions that are obvious over-threshold reactions. They just do not realize they try too hard! Which triggers the SNS. I have seen the same in a kambo group. I cold thus decide it was too strong for me for now, though my lymphatic system needs some support.
Those groups are helpful to have an idea of others reactions that we do not experiment, to be more tolerant and open-minded about the range of the possible.
About the CDR, Veronique Mead does a good job to explain. We have the same training in SE. SE easily talks about syndromes being caused by past traumas. I am just cautious about not thinking that chronic illness is due to past trauma only or always, because there is some guilt there. I think the reverse: a chronic illness gives your system too much to deal with IN THE PRESENT.
About Gesret, try Internet and google, the guy is dead now but there are trained persons. He was French. Cases with both eczema and asthma are typical of when the method can give huge results. I think not all eczema are auto-immune.
Any other modality that help the posture can help, it can be worth asking around to practitioners if they have treated asthma. The Jones techniques are relaxing muscles very well for example.
It depends where this person lives! I think Gesret has trained persons in Canada and Mexico.
I live in a place with a lot of German people and so I mentioned this here, and a woman told me afterward that a friend of her in Germany got cured thanks to the information!
Check a curiosity with your friend… Standing normally, he or she should tend to have more weight on the right foot! For Gesret there is a false shorter leg: false because it is actually the ribs that are a bit tight and lift one side. Gesret was also acupuncturist and said eczema had also to do with liver. 7th dorsal if my memory is good! They free the 1st for asthma. It is really something light and not visible that Gesret was calling sub-luxation. Just saying it is not necessary to look for a real lesion.
Googling entertains me a lot as well! Bonne continuation…
Remember to stop often and turn your head for orienting around and let your eyes be attracted by pleasant stuffs and reconnect with your ears to what you were not hearing any more. It is very useful to do this even briefly but many times a day, not only for the neck but for reconnecting to the present and ground.
Let’s say it is good for the vagus!
We have enough chronic diseases and enough bacterias. We do not fight them properly for 2 reasons:
1) our ANS – Autonomic Nervous System – is not enough on the parasympathetic side and does not “oscillate” properly.
2) we have a problem with circadian rhythm and our exposure to natural light rhythms. This interfere with the use of vitamine A.
Xisca,,
You seem awfully sure. It brings to mind something Matt once said. I don’t have his words exactly right, but the message is, “Whenever I am very sure of something, I am sure to be proven wrong.” Razwell has contributed many comments about how little we really know, especially with regard to autoimmune problems and obesity. I don’t mean to sound cynical, but I tend to be doubtful whenever someone proclaims to have an answer with absolute certainty.
Jeanne,
I professionally know enough about the ANS – Autonomic Nervous System – to know that bacterias also cause fight & flight & freeze! Also from molds and virus etc
Then I do not see why I should make people loose time with long answers and polite claims that I know nothing. We all state beliefs and you can apply your comment to anybody.
Curious people will look for more…
Xisca,
I only meant that I would like to see at least some supporting evidence for your position such as links to your own or other’s research. You shot down RobertB’s post about the hygiene hypothesis by simply making statements without your reasons. I like to consider multiple points of view and so therefore I’m interested in your statements, just as I am in reading the book RobertB mentioned. However, I need more information to consider before leaning one way or another. And I think we all need to realize that new information comes to light all the time. I believe it’s a mistake to think any health issue has been completely figured out.
Thanks Jeanne for trying to make further sense from my post. I agree, it’s fine to counter the argument I raised as long as they provide supporting evidence. But saying they’re a professional, or making cross the board statements clearly won’t cut it. I was just going to ignore it anyway.
The book is by far the best I’ve read in regards to germ theory. The author has own AI symptoms, so his motivation is “pure” in the sense he’s trying to solve his own issues.
I just think it’s important to find out why our bodies store VitA at high concentrations in the liver. If it’s trying to build up reserves to fight germs and diseases, that would be an important step in understanding why we still need a fair share of germs in our lives, and is a red flag for our germ-phobic society.
Jeanne and Robert,
I have given the essential to google it. If talking about the guts and the microbiome, of course this is right (but SIBO being when they are not at the right place in the colon) and the reason for taking probiotics. But then why is it not solved that much with probiotics and prebiotics?
Because of the ANS. (sure not only, but when people do not see an aspect, it is fair to make it more visible!)
The ANS is overlooked though it is fundamental. It is not only instincts and automatic job, it has a real intelligence!
I have read about proven changes in the ANS changing the guts. I do not keep articles I read. That would be too many to organize them.
Microorganisms are a major cause of ANS dis-regulation because of the fight flight freeze reaction it creates.
I also gave you a clue about what can cause vitamin A accumulation. Also ANS related, and something about light and circadian rhythms.
I am not germ phobic and use no chemicals at all. I can explain from the ANS point of view: if you do not grow up with progressive challenges, hormesis, your ANS is not used to “surf the big waves” and then will fail at defending itself. In that case the problem will not be not enough germs, but that you have failed the battle and are dealing with chronic infections = too many germs, microbes, fungi etc.
When they say that what does not kill you makes you stronger, it is only half true! Because we can – and often do – become weaker. Then they tell us it is just because we are old!
So, 1st learn about the ANS, it is the only system in the body that is not taken into account as it should be. Because medicine cannot deal with it directly and also because our precious human mind we are so proud of, cannot deal with it directly either! Indirectly yes. there are tips and methods. The one I learned is called Somatic Experiencing. And Organic Intelligence.
From the state of our ANS derives the strength we have to fight intruders of all kind. Why do you think they bring clowns to children in hospitals? To take care of the ANS, so that they can recover better. But so much more can be done to help the ANS…
Many people think “oh it is about past traumas” when it is often about a present trauma from microorganisms. As an example:
– you cannot start lifting weight from a level that is not yours
– you cannot surf big waves before learning to surf small ones.
And it happens that the regulation of the ANS is in form of waves, with a reciprocity between sympathetic and parasympathetic, except that like the hand brake of the car, you can have it on while accelerating. This is what causes a collapse with a tense body for example. It ruptures the reciprocity and the synchronization of our ANS. The vagus nerve has become more known, but this is a part of the system not all either. At least it starts to make people aware, and with something as easy as ONE nerve. (out of 12 cranial nerves)
The issue is more than a lack of microbes, it is a lack of progressive but existing exposure to all kind of stresses, with at the same time a support and security for children, so that the ANS can strengthen at the right rhythm and progression.
This is why you can see so many theories that make sense, and even if Naviaux also proposes a theory with the cell danger response, at least it shows the common root for all theories about what is damaging to us!
He puts on the same level childhood trauma, microbes invasion, big accidents or smaller ones but with no support, heavy metals, direct pressure on the vagus nerve or any physical damage.
After the level of cells, you have the level of the Nervous System, that electrically relates parts of the body, with efferent and afferent fibers between body and brain.
Bodyworks such as biodynamic cranio sacral, typically work on both levels of liquids and nerves in the body, saying that in the cells, this liquid is acting as the NS at the level of the body. And they work on the traumatic reaction in the body too.
So what we lack is the right exposure to stress in general. We are not born the same, so there is no global rule about what should be applied to babies, children, teens and adults. The art is to take the person where she is and read the stress signals as animals know how to do. They all have a body language that they do not hide. Animals also give each other support, the way an attuned mother does with a baby.
It is like exercise, that will build up fibers, or destroy them, if you are not exercising at the right level and intensity.
About microbes, we can have not enough or too many. Then you can enlarge the topic to the issue of concentration of beings living at the same place and with no more transhumance! Why do you think that they used to take animals from one place to another according to the season? It was not only for food, and look at many civilizations who also had 2 places for living. You leave bugs food-less while you go, and cut the cycles of worms and microbes. Even trees are able to trick their parasites and seeds eaters, like having global mast years and then they produce no fruit the next years. They kill who thrives on their fruits enough to reduce their numbers, so that part of their fruits can sprout and survive.
It is well know too that a forest has much less microbes than crowded environments. And the sika deer has been studied about strange deaths, until they noticed the surrenals and concluded that their NS prevented overpopulation. They cannot stand the stress passed a certain number. Rats are also known for having a concentration threshold. Stress is also known to modify the immune system.
Actually it is not stress, but a non adapted amount of stress, that leads to the immune system and the nervous system to mot be able to adapt to not enough or too much pressure. Hormesis is good, but the amount needs to be adapted.
What we need to focus on is a way to know in what nervous balance we are, so that we know how to stimulate and how to start, and what will serve us better and not others.
https://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/11/science/an-epidemic-of-absence-review-seeing-hygiene-as-driver-of-disease.html
“He himself joined the hookworm underground but found the intestinal side effects intolerable and the benefits small ”
What happens in our guts stimulates the vagus nerve too… Worms useful for some, but obviously too INTENSE for him.
Some people shiver when they poop, and some pass out. The relaxation can be pleasant or too strong! It depends what sort of vagus stimulation you can stand. Some people will get better with fiber and more bowel movements and some get better while going zero carb.
Also have a look at Phil Escott story, beating auto-immunity with zero carb and Hannah somatics and the right light exposure.
I am on nearly zero carbs as well, and I know a guy who used to pass out while pooping when suffering with bleeding as well, and cured with going full carnivore, and he could not even have liver or eggs. Also no dairies and as little fat as possible in his case. I modulate fat and protein according to my taste, I have found no better way than to follow my body.
Then about stress, here is what I had read a long time ago, as animal behaviour is where I come from.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/1350924'seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents
I just googled “sika deer stress”!
Stress prevents a good function of the immune system, but in stress we can be stuck on 2 sides, either too sympathetic or too parasympathetic. By the way this matches also nutritional balance and htma…. and I also do hair test, and I knew I was a slow oxidizer before hand, as I am more in functional freeze and thus parasympathetic dominant.
How is SNS or PNS dominance linked to immunity? Too much or not enough? This is the point that will help people to guess a bit better before choosing what they need.
TEI lab tells me to eat less fat and a bit more carbs then, and more proteins…. lol I still have low P with a carnivore diet! I feel I cannot increase fats indeed, but carbs neither, no way for me, so I use more proteins than fats, to get glucose from neoglucogenesis. This is how I concluded about the choice of % of fat and protein in a carnivore diet according to the oxidation type.
I differ from many people in the carnivore community: I do not believe this is THE diet for everybody, as even wolves and dogs etc eat fruits. coyotes even survive part of the year on mesquite pods! I guess they fart… but they survive! When we need a reduced diet, it is a relief to have it, but limits our adaptability.
Sure, Xisca has a point about the ANS being out of whack. Heck, I’m sure mine is way disrupted, since I have chronic insomnia and way to much screentime. But why not still consider this other theory? Why rule it out completely? I came across an idea the other day that the raw carnivore diet might also be getting all the hyped results because of the worms/bacteria in raw meat. I recall Aajonnus used to talk alot about high meat – meat that’s been putrifying for weeks on end. Apparently the Inuits did it too. Imagine how many germs living in that kind of meat. And yet, it was seen as a healing food.
Xisca makes a valid point, that our bodies aren’t the same as they used to be, and won’t be able to deal with an onslaught of new germs. But I think if we did it gradually and systematically, maybe there would be some progress, and our VitA levels may drop.
What do you guys think?
Thanks Robert for keeping the dialogue opened! I rectified before that if you speak about microbes in the gut, I agree, with some precautions, as we all know about the microbiome already…
My point is that if we are already impaired, we need to remove attack charges on the body before we can increase them.
So, without a correct range of capacity to hold sympathetic and parasympathetic waves, we cannot have our immune system working properly.
Also, microbes are part of what creates fight and flight and freeze, and not only past traumas as is the new trend saying! Basically, if we cannot fight or flight, we fall into freeze, which is an energy saving protection. So I started to introduce the concept of “tiny invaders”…
Ok, I have my background in Somatic Experiencing, but also a personal story….
I got prenatal “attack” from chemicals in a lab 5 days a week. Some were alcohols, and my pancreas and liver… at 18 my oral glucose challenge signaled insulin resistance coming and was advised to cut on sugar which I did.
As a no surprise, I deal with SIBO and got good result with the carnivore diet. I also tried to eat raw and always loved both gelatin and tartar steak. I have no clue if this has to do with having had some clostridia species, but I was told that it could come from raw meat.
10 years ago I did with great result – having to eat much less – the Dr Clark protocol for intestinal parasites. Now I have come to the point that I want to do a good intestinal microbiome test and start a protocol with prebiotics, and push back the bugs to the colon where they belong. It is probable that the carnivore diet also limits the good bugs in the colon.
i would do high meat, or also tried to do my own culture of raw milk as I have a milk sheep, but I deal with molds around because of a maritime climate, and I am thinking I should analyze them so that I know how dangerous they are.
I am into enough FB groups to see through my SE eye that too many people are going over-threshold when they try to heal with good things, and I urge people to consider learning how to watch their own range of body reaction, and learn about the signs of sympathetic or parasympathetic reactions. Those signs are obvious in animal behaviour, which is my first field, and we humans are culturally made to ignore them, thus we put ourselves in our own way!
For example I never get up quick if I fall, I first listen to the slow changes in my body, following the stabilization after the sudden reaction I had to not hurt myself.
For example if me and a stranger both startle when we meet behind a door we push and pull at the same time, I establish contact with the person longer than the norm, until we both laugh, as this is a deactivating human system! I just make fun of our “stupid” reaction though not so stupid but natural. Then we both go away with a better mood than before the “stress”!
According to the state we are in, it is safe to assume that, because of not having benefited from hormesis since our birth, or even conception, most of us have had some weakness in the body defense, and we have different species who took the opportunity to live in us when they should not, or live where they do not belong.
I am now considering that giving no carb no my gut bugs did not starve them to death but put them in hibernation, and that I must go further for healing. I would not put any random stuff in me without knowing what are my specific “bugs” at the moment!
And no hormesis without increasing the range of action of the nervous system, so that it limits the risk of the freeze response. Well I like the word dissociate better. It just means that some parts of the global experience are separated one from the other when they are too challenging to stand and experience. It is a protection like the fuses of the electric house wiring. Goes off the one that needs to go off.
When I speak of attacks, instead of just stress, I mean that having too much stress is not the point, but having had too much too early or having not enough and then a sudden charge, etc. is the point to look at. Hormesis has a learning curve and we as modern humans tend to, at the same time, want to strengthen babies too soon, like them sleeping alone, and then we are afraid of them getting the right amount of stressors. Actually, “what does not kill you can make you stronger”, but can also weaken you! I want both halves to be considered!
To make a direct point about vitamin A: is vitA too high because we do not have enough infections to fight, or because our immune system does not work properly and thus “leave the Vit A tool aside and do not use it”?
I think we might be feeling quite ok and healthy when we have micobes living in us, as most of them feed on us many years before we can feel any harm.
So, do we feel “ill” not when we have microbes, but only when we fight them? Because they react and fight too!
It might be that we have enough microbes, parasites, molds and virus and more, but the issue is that our body says “sorry I do not have enough strength to go to war”, or also the body says “All our fight energy is already busy with our job and daily stress, so I cannot do more. I will “fall ill” aka fight, when you will be on holidays”!
And indeed so many people are surprised to get ill when they get on holidays!
(written after the following… yes i could not help to add more!)
In SE, we know that if we make people relax more, then there will be a sudden surge of a wave of sympathetic activation to deal with! This is the mere reason why we tend to not rest fully: our body knows it will lead to process what has been left to stand by. Some people cannot even stand yoga or meditation because it is followed by a fire back. I am glad I have learned how to feel this and manage it with a lot of caution, because it helps me to hack my health and maintain a deep sense of joy as amber in my heart, even when there is another sort of painful fire going on. I also know how to be aware of dissociation and literally “travel” in it when in body pain until I get better. I also have some necessary inner tools for the “travel back home”!
The main one is orientation to the present moment through senses, orienting to the life still going on apart from my own pain. I am lucky to have birds and wild life around so that I can relate through my hearing consciously for example.
I have a comment awaiting moderation since the 16 and I noticed it had links… so I republish without the links to see the difference!
What we need to focus on is a way to know in what nervous balance we are, so that we know how to stimulate and how to start, and what will serve us better and not others.
I read a review of an epidemic of absence,
He himself joined the hookworm underground but found the intestinal side effects intolerable and the benefits small
What happens in our guts stimulates the vagus nerve too Worms might be useful for some, but obviously too INTENSE for him.
Some people shiver when they poop, and some pass out. The relaxation can be pleasant or too strong! It depends what sort of vagus stimulation you can stand. Some people will get better with fiber and more bowel movements and some get better while going zero carb.
Also have a look at Phil Escott story, beating auto-immunity with zero carb and Hannah somatics and the right light exposure.
I am on nearly zero carbs as well, and I know a guy who used to pass out while pooping when suffering with bleeding as well, and cured with going full carnivore, and he could not even have liver or eggs. Also no dairies and as little fat as possible in his case. I modulate fat and protein according to my taste, I have found no better way than to follow my body.
Then about stress, here is what I had read a long time ago, as animal behaviour is where I come from.
I just gogled sika deer stress! It explains why they died of stress in this island.
Stress prevents a good function of the immune system, but in stress we can be stuck on 2 sides, either too sympathetic or too parasympathetic. By the way this matches also nutritional balance and htma. and I also do hair test, and I knew I was a slow oxidizer before hand, as I am more in functional freeze and thus parasympathetic dominant.
How is SNS or PNS dominance linked to immunity? Too much or not enough? This is the point that will help people to guess a bit better before choosing what they need.
TEI lab tells me to eat less fat and a bit more carbs then, and more proteins. lol I still have low P with a carnivore diet! I feel I cannot increase fats indeed, but carbs neither, no way for me, so I use more proteins than fats, to get glucose from neoglucogenesis. This is how I concluded about the choice of % of fat and protein in a carnivore diet according to the oxidation type.
I differ from many people in the carnivore community: I do not believe this is THE diet for everybody, as even wolves and dogs etc eat fruits. coyotes even survive part of the year on mesquite pods! I guess they fart but they survive! When we need a reduced diet, it is a relief to have it, but limits our adaptability. I want to be able to add plants back in!
I’ve given up sugar now for 5 weeks. Not carbs, no way. Couldn’t even if I tried. But sugar, meaning added sugar in foods or drinks and even fruit for the first 4 weeks. I just started having fruit now, and yes it’s delicious. Before I never really cared for it, since I’d prefer a slice of cake, chocolate or something along those lines.
Why am I bringing this up here? Well, after reading a few books on fructose, I’ve found another link to the liver and how it stresses out the liver. The body doesn’t know what to do with fructose apparently, so it shunts it to the liver. I don’t know how much you guys have been keeping up with all the sugar saga, but it seems that many high profile nutrition “experts” have been saying that fructose is a poison.
I can’t help seeing the parallel here with VitA. There is so much these two have in common. All I can say at this point is I’ve tried the low VitA diet, and the low fructose diet, and I can definitely recommend giving up the fructose instead. Why? Well because going low VitA means giving up on too many healthy food options. I do still think it’s a poison, but giving up most vegetables seems to have done me more harm than good. But giving up fructose doesn’t mean you have to give up alot of healthy foods, and you’re still saving your liver big time.
Oh, and I should also mention that my cravings for sweet foods stopped after about a week. So it wasn’t that particularly hard to do.
I followed that logic to its reasonable conclusion and was one of the ones leading that conversation way back when. I wrote this almost 11 years ago! https://180degreehealth.com/fruc-fructose/
I didn’t eat much fructose at all for many years. But I couldn’t argue with the results I experienced when I added it back to my diet in large quantity. Felt better in every way. But I could easily see a fructose-induced fatty liver causing the inability to handle vitamin A since it can’t be stored properly. Seems feasible, so I could entertain that idea for sure.
I did go fructose-free for nearly 2 months in 2018, but adding sugar back in immediately made me feel better.
It could be that on a low A diet you are indeed missing some nutrients. I know that supplementing calcium really helped my teeth. Sore spots (developed on a fructose-free diet!) disappeared in weeks.
Thanks for the link, Matt. I didn’t know you had tried a low fructose diet in the past. Although I guess I’m not surprised given your track record of experiments. I’m sad to hear that it had little benefit, and you felt better when you added sugar back in. When I reached my 4th week on the diet, I realised I wasn’t enjoying my food as much as I used to, so I started having some fruit again, and became alot more satisfied. From then on, I decided to keep on doing the diet and include some fruit too, just not having added sugar or honey. Did you also stop eating fruit too?
Whatever the case, It’ll be very hard to convince me that having processed sugar (the white stuff) is beneficial for anyone. I mean, how insane would that be! I have heard of Ray Peat before, and I suppose his ideas fall along those lines…
What kind and how much calcium are you supplementing?
I’m interested in calcium supplementation, but I hear claims about certain supplements causing problems, like heart attacks, and I don’t what to think.
I know Ray Peat thinks eggshell powder is a good supplement.
Just calcium carbonate. A shitload at the moment (like 2-3 grams daily) and then planning on slowly ramping it down to just a few hundred mg, hopefully as a full spectrum mineral source (like eggshell calcium) over the next month or two.
Hi Matt. Could I ask why you chose carbonate specifically? Also, dr G is not a fan of calcium at all, especially if one has high levels of vitamin a. Could I ask your view on this? I chipped a tooth (spontaneously) about 5 months into vit A free diet which has never happened ever before. Oxalates may have a role in it, but even from the rbti days I was told I had calcium deficiency. Calcium could probably benefit me but am a bit confused over what to try. Citrate since I have oxalate issues after latest antibiotics treatment would make sense but am not crazy about citrate itself since it messes up copper metabolism
I chose it rather accidentally. Beef was giving me what felt like severe heartburn. I seem to have developed some kind of intolerance to it after eating way too much of it in my early forays into going very low A. Sucks because that’s kind of an awesome staple meat on a low-A diet. But, anyway, I took a ton of Tums one time to try to ease the pain and, while it didn’t do shit for my stomach, I noticed feeling like my teeth were really hard and my nails were growing faster. That was only after consuming maybe 20 grams over 3-4 days. And so I decided to just have a few (750mg each) every day for about a month. It definitely helped me overcome the tender spots on my teeth.
I had been working really hard for over a year to strengthen my teeth via really hard biting exercises on a teething ring, and mastic gum. those helped for sure, but the combination of biting and taking a ton of calcium is what finally took it to the next level. The strength of my teeth is amazing and bite force is crazy after a year of the exercises, but those tender spots remained until I provided the raw material to really help them harden.
So yeah, I wouldn’t take a ton for too long. You’d probably end up with kidney stones and constipation or other mineral imbalances from the disproportionally high amount of calcium to other minerals. But I definitely got some benefit from it.
There are a couple things I’ve been really pondering hard lately, and this is…
1) A low A diet seems woefully deficient in a lot of nutrients, especially my version. I get like 80+% of my calories from white sugar, white flour, oils, and white rice. Chicken and potatoes can only go so far in making up for that deficit. I think more care in crafting a truly nutritionally sustainable long-term low-A diet is probably needed. My calcium intake, for one, has been pathetic.
2) Being low in Vitamin A probably opens up the body to become a huge mineral sponge for the first time in ages. One way to look at it is that, with low vitamin A levels, you probably don’t need as many minerals because your body can make more efficient use of them (have you seen Grant’s recent blood tests after 5 years vitamin-A free? His vitamin D levels are off the charts!). But another way to look at it could be that it’s an opportune time to remineralize. I spent my first year on a low-A diet with the former mentality, but that calcium experiment kind of has me curious about the latter.
Hey Matt, so you said you feel better with fructose than without it. Have you tried the same experiment with starch? Would you feel better with the majority of carbs coming from fructose and little to none coming from starch? Or do you think both are necessary for optimal health?
I’ve tried lots of only starch carbs and plenty of only sugar carb eating as well. I think both is much better than one only. If I could only choose one, I think I’d choose sugar. That’s truly one thing I can’t seem to function properly without.
I dropped Ray peat and sugar 2 years ago and feel much better. I am nearly carnivore, and sugar and fats are what give me heart burn especially if I eat some for supper. Now I go to bed just after eating egg whites in tomato sauce…. The yolk were eaten raw with fat in the morning!
And no heart burn any more.
Both fat and sugar in the evening or eating early, give me heart burn at night. Let’s say like eating dry figs with almonds. Now if I eat only dry figs midday and acid + protein at night, I go straight to bed at the start of the digestion and still no heart burn…. You just lack stomach acid because of high sugar diet I think! Thus your problem with beef now. Chicken needs less acid for digestion.
Only lowering calcium Will make vit D go higher. I have normal calcium in htma but low potassium, so this is the same, my body is low in vit D to not up calcium. It takes time even with the diet I have, but it shifts and now my hair grows.
Those who do htma know that Ca / K is about thyroid…
So please folks do not supp with calcium unless your hair says so! I am a slow 1
BTW I also have low P which means low stomach acid, thus my obligation to use lemon, vinegar and tomato… and I seem to be ok with caroten though I am not with the orange carotens! Anyway just to say…. there are white tomatoes….. try to find them, or sow yours!
LOL. I never had any problem with beef until I did the carnivore diet. That’s when I developed the problem. I don’t think it’s heartburn. It seems more like an ulcer or gallbladder attack. It happens with low or high-fat cuts of beef, and only beef. Weird. But it’s praying-for-death excruciating in the moment it strikes (lasts 10 minutes to a couple hours), so I’m out of the beef game for a while for sure.
Hey Matt – have you ever had your blood analyzed using an IgG ELISA Food Sensitivity Assay? Immuno Laboratories down in Ft. Lauderdale checks the blood against 154 foods for antigenicity. My Beef score is +4 at the top of the range of antibody reaction. Zero is what you’re looking for. It sure simplifies things. I have 41 foods ranging from +1 to +4 and the remaining 113 are zero. Interestingly, most of the vegetable foods that are OK for me are also very low VA. I’d like to get them to add Bison to the test list. Hope this adds something to the conversation.
I’d love to get that, but I have an extreme phobia of getting blood drawn. I can’t even talk about it without nearly fainting! I know that’s lame but it’s reality.
Hehe that is funny. I was doing phlebotomy(during Morley Robbins days when I was thinking that all my issues are due to iron overload) by myself at home 3x500ml with infusion kit. It is easy to do..
Matt, try to get some Somatic Experiencing sessions, this phobia might go away easily. It will also better your vagus nerve function, improving asthma which is a vagus reaction.
I know a surgeon who trained in SE because she tried a session and never got asthma again.
I still believe in Gesret theory about asthma, but it is anyway also vagus related! ….as is fainting!
Yeah I need something for sure. It’s a serious phobia. I’d need mind-altering drugs to get through it, and I have a pretty strong phobia about consciousness-altering drugs as well! haha
Whatever theory you believe about asthma, I’m confident that this is the right one. Read it carefully. My breathing is amazing after getting vitamin A out of my system, and I even overcame extreme pet dander allergies along with it, and got rid of a few patches of eczema as well. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/11841467_Could_bronchial_asthma_be_an_endogenous_pulmonary_expression_of_retinoid_intoxication
It is not a theory I believe in, and I never had asthma nor eczema… By removing retinoic acid you removed the main offender to your body? Whatever is an assault to our body, even at the level of our cells, triggers a reaction of the ANS. The Autonomic Nervous System is in charge of all the other body systems. Remove the agression and you remove the defense!
Now tell me why some people react with asthma and others with eczema and others alternate the two, while others have other types of defensive reactions?
There are obviously some constitutional differences!
Anyway, Gesret was able to both trigger an asthma attack in a person prone to them, and would do so only because he could also stop the attack… Only with his fingers between ribs, showing the structural influence.
His son died of asthma choking on his 10th birthday. He spent all his life looking for solutions and found something.
There is a cumulation of factors and the common point is the defensice reaction, increased when several triggers come at the same time. This is vagus nerve related anyway… The vagus works also as a potent “hand brake” when there is a sympathetic activation that is felt to be too strong by the body.
I like this website. I helped me from keep trying raw veganism and Paleo. And helped me eat pizza again. Which I love so much. However, it gave me a new ‘eating disorder’, namely forcing as much food in my body as possible,eating extreme amounts of salts, and a fear of exercise. Gained much weight!!! Stupid me!!! Why do some people never learn.
However, gradually I recovered and lost weight.
I don’t like this article. I think the audience of this website are severe hypochondriac s and orthorexics in remission and I think you maybe should keep this website free from fear of certain types of foods. I have noticed that nothing harms my health so much as wanting to be and eat healthy and surfing the internet. Everytime this happens my health suffers tremendously. I think once a hypochondriac always one. But you can go in remission, but it is very easy to go back if something stressful happens. I relapse constantly although it was getting better and better with less severe relapses. And my health was improving so much!!! However then I got pregnant and stupid me fell back into hypochondria state. Things were starting to become bad again because I wanted to have a healthy baby and I wanted to resolve pregnancy discomforts. Reading too much medical reports on adverse pregnancy outcomes, and searching for a healthy diet again I started to become obsessed with food and health again.
I came to this site to get some anxiety relieve but then I read this article and I only made it worse. I hate it! I don’t want to see food as I treath anymore. I want to enjoy eating without worrying about this and that. Why did I put myself in this position??!!
Obviously healthy eating has value and when eating healthy but not obsessively I feel well. However, sometimes it becomes so obsessive and I don’t know what to eat anymore or take anymore. Protein is bad, fat is bad, carbs are bad, gluten are bad,beans are bad, FODMAP is bad, now green and orange vegetables are bad too. I mean come on!!
I am not working about that too. I feel good eating spinach and carrots.
I prefer a mostly vegetarian diet, because I prefer not eating animals and I feel better eating less meat. I enjoy eating carbs and beans more than steak. However sometimes I crave meat really badly. I will give in,but this happens seldomly.
I think the succes of the human race is based on its body’s adaptibility. We are no pandas who can only survive on a certain type of food. Humans are spread all over the world because our bodies can adapt to different environments and lifestyles. So if we think logical fat, carbs and protein cannot be bad. There have been healthy people on different ratios across the spectrum. There are long-lived people with different diets. People have healed themselves on many different diets. I have read people healing themselves of diabetes, and inflammatory bowel diseases etc… on a McDougall diet. And I have read about the similar succes stories on a Paleo diet. And now people are succeeding reversing illness on a vitamin a deficient diet. All a very different from one another, even opposing one another. So opposing diets seem to be able to heal,this most tell us something. But what? I can think of a few explanation but are they the right one?
I am going to stick with my mostly vegetarian diet with cheese, beans and spinach (other other vitamin a rich vegetables) untill I get sick and then I will maybe adjust it.
However first I have to recover from some serious injure I gave myself. I was experiencing pregnancy constipation. (Which overdose of nutritional yeast triggered-since being pregnant I can’thandle that shit anymore) And I absolutely hate being constipated. And after a few days of discomfort and worrying too much I bought an enema from the drugstore and I landed myself in the ER with severe dehydration. Not life-threatening, but really severe. I was so dehydrated that I could not hold food any longer and vomited out every thing I eat. I lips were white and cracked, hollow dark eyes. I am still recovering. My bodies craves Soo much liquid now. Although I drank four litres by pee was still dark orange. My stool looks very unhealthy after using it. I am afraid I wrecked my intestines. Hope it will heal quickly. The baby was fine,but I feel very shitty. Learning not to worry so much about health, not surfing so much about it,and no longer seeing food as treath or a means but just enjoying what you eat. And also learning to be able to handle physical and emotion discomfort. And therefore trying less diets, supplements, etc…
Maybe you should make two website, Matt. One for your hypochondriacs and one for investigating the effect of vitamin a and other stuff. But I think this website should be a haven for the recovering eating disordered. A safe place on the internet free from health scaring,but also free from health white-washing.
And on your other website you could investigate and write about the things that will scare those healthnuts in remission. You should make it private, with a password and only people who can prove they are stable in remission can enter your website. Because this article have me and probably some other a real scare and we cannot handle it.
I needed to be scared of Vitamin A and maybe you and others will too. I still ate pizza yesterday! It’s just not very often. Maybe once per month.
I agree that being scared in order to decide to do something is not as good as being motivated to live naturally and find out tips. I look for what I can eat more than what I cannot eat.
The main problem is our social isolation to implement a good life when it is not mainstream and when we can all have so many different habits, thus we are not culturally supported.
Self-discipline should not be needed for that many things, and sure not for eating!
I have actually made a FB group that is called “We are omnivores. So why can’t we?” until we find a better name… But you see the reaction…. why is it that so many people need to reduce their diet! Some reasons are legit, but we need tips to find out what should direct us to such or such diet. Actually the easiest tip is that when we reach the stage of craving, it is a strong message to shake us and tell us that we should not wait for cravings to eat this type of food. Can’t we learn to distinguish slightest messages? What is the difference between a real message from the body and an unbalance? I don’t buy the addiction belief as being “in the head”.
So, back to omnivore is the way, still avoiding what hurts though looking for ways to reintroduce.
Hey Mahonie,
We have similar experiences. I had anorexia and orthorexia, then “recovered” using Minnie Maud (which helped more than it harmed, ultimately, although there was some harm, too). :P
I’ve been on a low vitamin A diet for almost a year and a half now, and at this point in time I am 99.9% convinced that my appetite struggles directly stem from hypervitaminosis A and beriberi (thiamin deficiency), two states that often accompany one another.
TMI warning for frank discussion of 💩:
Before the VA detox, constipation was my default state. I even had mucus in my stool pretty often. After starting the detox, I became regular and type #4 on the Bristol Stool Chart.
In the past 1.5 years I’ve only eaten pizza one time (orthorexic alert lol—I like Matt’s cheat day approach 😝). The day after the pizza I was constipated. A few days later, when I finally could go there was mucus in my stool again. That was the only time I had mucus in my stool since starting the vitamin A detox.
I’ve also reversed my PCOS, and am now a normal weight instead of obese.
The McDougall Diet works because it is a low-fat, high-fibre, high-thiamin diet, which eliminates all food sources of retinol. Soluble fibre limits the absorption of beta carotene in the digestive tract (there are studies that show this), and fat enhances it (again, there’s research to show this). So without fat and emphasizing loads of fibre they have unintentionally reduced beta carotene absorption and bioavailability dramatically…
Doing Karen Hurd’s “Bean Cure,” taking thiamin supplements, and the low vitamin A diet is healing my body, and now it’s even finally clearing up my seasonal allergy symptoms (just as winter is ending 😁).
There’s definitely something to this.
Dr. Smith twice referred to you as Dr. Yee. I found this confusing.
Sorry. Got the voices mixed up (thought Matt was Garrett and vice versa) and it was actually Dr. “G” not Yee.
Someone above was concerned about strawberries (red fruit). Dr. Smith cautioned about yellow, red, and orange veggies/fruits, but mentioned there were some red exceptions. Strawberries have only 21 IU per 1 1/4 cup, so no problem unless you’re doing rock bottom zero-vitamin A.
Over the last five days, I read Grant’s two books and did some vitamin-A calculations. Seems that I’ve been doing over 30,000+ IU per day for a long time. This includes a 2 x 25,000 IU per week supplement. I got the values from Jeanne’s list.
The capsules are in the trash and I’ll be eating a lot less grass-fed milk, eggs, cheese, yogurt, baby carrots, green veggies, tomatoes, and pasta sauce. The baby carrots are a real terror and the capsules are insane.
For what it’s worth, I have found a significant difference between low vitamin A and rock bottom vitamin A.
Like you feel better on “rock bottom vit A” ? It is like under 200iu a day from all forms? I started eating some green stuff like broccoli, green peas, green beans. I also eat bananas or corn polenta. So I have like 2000iu a day, but from plants and most of the meals are low fat, so I think far less will be actually absorbed..
Yeah, definitely below 200iu. But once every week or so I eat pretty much whatever I want or crave, and I probably have thousands of IU on those days, and feel the consequences. But a super low-A diet has made it too hard to get sufficient calories for weeks on end, so need to binge out from time to time.
“The capsules are in the trash and I’ll be eating a lot less grass-fed milk, eggs, cheese, yogurt, baby carrots, green veggies, tomatoes, and pasta sauce. The baby carrots are a real terror and the capsules are insane.”
The hilarity of nuerosis on Matt Stone’s blog is quite entertaining.
Going down the rabbit hole, rather than enjoying food and life? Reminds me of how some people freaked out about the presence of PUFAs found in greens and leaves on the Ray Peat forums, even though the amount is so insignifcant and has no meaning.
Take a deep breath and relax, everyone…
I tried to take a deep breath, but I couldn’t, until I started being paranoid about the above-mentioned foods, lol.
I am eternally grateful for Matt’s blog and especially his articles on VA. This information (a low VA diet) led me to recover from eczema and other skin issues. It has helped my toddler daughter go from being covered with severe eczema on 80-90% of her body to mild eczema on only 10-20%.
In the past I had to take a break, probably 2 years or so, from reading ANY health or diet related articles or books because of my tendency to be neurotic about food. I highly suggest to anyone who is the same way to take a break from reading health sites, including Matt’s (sorry). I think he stated in another comment that if you seriously have disordered eating this whole VA diet thing does NOT apply to you. Fix yourself mentally first. And eat for heat is a great way to do that.
You wouldn’t be entertained or amused if you were experiencing my particular health problems: cataracts, tinnitus, hearing loss, hip arthritis, calcified arteries, atrial fibrillation, nocturia, erectile dysfunction, etc. You may not make a connection between such problems and my six times-vA RDA intake, but I personally found Grant’s book to be plausible and seriously frightening.
I now call 1/2 cup of baby carrots the “orange terror” because I recognize that they contain 13,000 IU of vA when my current object is to minimize vA. I used to eat baby carrots every night while I was preparing the rest of my high-vA dinner.
I fully acknowledge that I may have fed and supplemented myself into multiple debilitating ailments, diseases, and degenerations with each and every high-vA meal–and they really were all high-vA for decades.
I was a longtime dietary ignoramus, I’ve paid the price, and I’m not the least proud of it.
Heh I used to juice kilos of carrots. I remember after drinking like 500ml of this super healthy carrot juice sharp pain in the liver are and I was thinking. Great my liver is detoxing.. :) At least for the next 10 years I will not even look at things like carrots, sweet potatoes, squash, water melon(which I had no problem eat like 10 pounds for a snack..).. I was also a bodybuilder so 5 eggs a day for 8 years is a must and after that I was sick so for sure I need to eat at least 300g of liver every day and take at least 10 000iu of retinol palmitate from supps right? But the ultimate thing was accutane for sure.. Anyway I think that it is not only vit A detox, but also about making sure that you have all cofactors for vit A metabolism that are probably depleted and the best info will give you hair tissue mineral analysis. Balance of macro and micro minerals in the body is huge… I think that by taking shit loads of active vit A the body is like ”omg this is crazy I am poisoned with so much vit A. I will dump everything from the body what makes active form of vit A. So this will stop…” and the cofactors are B vitamins, zinc, selenium, molybdenum etc… So maybe even if you eat good amount of this micronutrients the body is dumping them from the body..
Oh I was eating 300g of liver a week not a day.. Btw E angler obviously never had any more serious health issues. Otherwise he would never write this nonsense.
I came across both people needing more Vitamine A and people with toxicity… The 3rd case is people who did good on depletion and then started to have signs of deficiency. So, please test your levels!
Or trust your body, your likings, kinesiology or chinese pulse test! I can have the tomato and the egg, but sure not the pizza crust! And the Peaty carrot is sure not for me.
And if you need ceruloplasmine, if you have low copper, if you have an iron issue… then you might regret to not have enough vitamine A. It is all about knowing which protocol is for you. Vitamine A depletion never indicated who will beneficiate and warnings for those who may not. I have seen this pit fall in more or less all protocoles and diets! They don’t tell you how to choose and if what they propose is for you!
How you know if someone has deficiency when basically everyone is saying that symptoms of deficiency are the same as symptoms of toxicity? Btw If you are talking about vitamin A needed for ceruloplasmin synthesis like Morley Robbins is saying that is also not this simple. Morley Robbins is even worse than Ray Peat lol. He has no idea about anything. He just thinks that all issues are from iron toxicity and that everybody should basically take the same food/supplement protocol. That is ridiculous. People with high metabolism(fast oxidizers) are doing good on high copper, vit A, calcium diet. People with slow metabolism(slow oxidizers) are having calcification, copper and vit A toxicity. So for slow oxidizers is Morley Robins “root cause protocol” basically death sentence. Btw most people are slow oxidizers. True fast oxidizer are mainly kids or you can be a “fake fast oxidizer” due to some heavy metal toxicity or something like that.. Btw you have no idea how much vit A you have in the body. Same with copper. Blood tests are useless. The only accurate test is liver biopsy. Good luck with that.
“How you know if someone has deficiency when basically everyone is saying that symptoms of deficiency are the same as symptoms of toxicity?”
Grant Genereux isn’t everyone and he’s not saying this. By his analysis, the major 20th century “vA” trials were actually demonstrating “vA” toxicity, not deficiency, due to unrecognized, highly toxic, retinoic acid in the test-animals’ food.
His current position is that “vA” is a toxin, and only a toxin–and not a vitamin.
One theory is that this toxin has the purpose of limiting lifespans and removing unproductive older organisms when liver vA storage capacity is finally exceeded.
“By his analysis, the major 20th century “vA” trials were actually demonstrating “vA” toxicity, not deficiency, due to unrecognized, highly toxic, retinoic acid in the test-animals’ food.”
lol you are saying exactly what I said. That in rat studies they were like look they have vit A deficiency symptoms, but they were symptoms of toxicity. Which means the symptoms of deficiency and toxicity are BASICALLY the same.. Anyway Grant is a smart guy and he started all this so thx to him, but he is missing a lot of things. This health thing is far more complex and vit A is just another part of crazy big picture.. In his case vit A toxicity doesn’t make sense. He was not even eating diet high in vit A. In my case it makes sense. Accutane, retinol supplements, eggs every day for 10 years, eating liver during Weston Price, Ray peat days etc.. In his case it looked more like zinc deficiency which basically inhibits vit A metabolism and by eating nothing but beef you fix this zinc issue very easy.. People simply like to make things simple. But human body is so complex system of systems that it is basically impossible to manage all variables at the same time..
That’s not what he was saying at all. He was saying THERE ARE NO SYMPTOMS OF VITAMIN A DEFICIENCY BECAUSE THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A VITAMIN A DEFICIENCY.
Well that is the theory and it will be just that “theory” for very long time. I still think that vit A itself is not an issue. The issue here is dysregulation of vit A metabolism. Simply vit A is complicated, unstable thing that need a lot of cofactors and elements for working how it should. It is like copper. If you know something about copper metabolism you know how crazy complex that is. Even 99% of doctors have no idea how copper metabolism in the body works.. It is the same thing you can end up “copper toxic” but it is not from copper itself unless you drink and cook in copper utensil all the time. Same with vit A unless you eat very high amounts of vit A supplements or take accutane etc.. It is not about copper or vit A itself, but about other factors that are fucked up so vit A or copper is dysregulated. Can be used, eliminated, is toxic, sitting in the organs, damaging the body.. Vit A always was in peoples diet and always will be. But the environment is not in favor for people. That’s why a lot of things a not working in the human body like vit A, like copper and other many things.. BTW I guarantee you that Grant will run to other different issues by eating nothing but beef, white rice and beans for 10 years. That is on the same level of stupidity like raw veganism for example…
Curious if you have any updates with the dieting and if you’re open to a chat as you seem to have insight/experience…
I’m tired of researching and can’t hire doctors at the moment. 30yrs. Of trying to heal and go down rabbit holes). I’m not sure what to think of this theory… I do know I don’t convert beta carotene to Vitamin A based on turning orange as a teen and later through genetics.
My last vitamin A test was in 2019 and it was at the highest number before it would be marked as too high – this was before I started taking Vitamin A supplements if I recall correctly!
If your up for it let me know :)
The only update I have is that I HAVE to avoid vitamin A. I can’t eat it regularly for more than a week without everything going haywire (asthma, eczema, allergies, fatigue, headaches).
Thanks Matt! It’s great to have control at least but o sense there is more too it than all Vit A sources. Genetic expression? Missing enough minerals/enzymes?
Im also interested in Jiri’s Hutecka journey/advice as well. I can’t help but feel there has to be another way than cutting out a variety of necessary foods…. biohack it more intelligently ;) all diets in my 38yrs of experience are always a trigger to the loaded gun than the actual issue. Great short term but usually a disaster long term- but maybe an exception. I don’t know…
The general working belief is that once your liver is overfilled with Vitamin A you’re pretty much shit outta luck, as all sources of ingested retinoids will result in A going straight to the tissues where they cause trouble. Whether that is true or not remains to be seen. I’d love to biohack more intelligently. I was desperate at the time I started doing a low-A diet, as I seriously couldn’t breathe. It still works great to completely eliminate my asthma (even when encountering former asthma triggers like pet dander and smoke). I do wish I wasn’t so lazy though and really prepared a wide variety of more nutritious foods. I’d prefer my diet to be full of potatoes and turnips and white asparagus and pears and such. But it’s mostly chicken, beef, pasta, rice, white bread, Gatorade, and store-bought cookies, lol.
I’ve tremendously reduced my vA intake the past few weeks and I’ve had one noticeable improvement. For many years, I guess even decades, I’ve needed to get up five or more times during the night and stagger wobbly down the hall to answer bladder calls. The sleep intervals have usually been shorter than two hours. Now, I’m extending out to four, five, and even six hours! And I seem to be experiencing a deeper sleep, and even recalled a few dreams.
I haven’t yet been counting my daytime bladder calls, but the former sense of painful, dramatic urgency seems to be less for both night and day.
(Grant Genereux wrote that he was answering bladder calls 20 times during the day and five times at night before starting his vA depletion diet.)
Most of my vA is now coming from 1/2 cup yogurt and 1 oz cheddar cheese. I’m afraid to lose the calcium in these dairy foods and don’t want to supplement calcium. Dr. Smith wrote that fermented milk products are less troublesome than milk itself. But I need to do some serious thinking about calcium. I wonder if the 1,000 mg RDA was influenced by the dairy industry. My tap water only contains 4 mg/liter.
I totally get it, lazy may not even be an unfair word to use on yourself ;)
I suffer physically in different yet debilitating ways but I know the desperation of whatever helps whether root cause or not, you do it.
Ray Peat’s approach (even with a hired biochem expert specific to RP) ruined me and left me with “un-curable” Mast Cell Activation to the point of needing medication before I eat or drink anything. I was down to under 100lb’s at 5’8″. I ended up on T3 thyroid meds anyway (apparently you don’t have to be overweight to have tanked T3)!
This may not be your thing, it’s a bit out there but I’m going to travel down the German New Medicine approach first. Although I get sucked into physical biochem so easily because it seems more concrete and actionable/controllable (bit of an illusion). I think the unconscious, trauma/conflicts (and energy bodies) are 95% driving all symptoms. It seems whack but it also seems to be a place where people can eat whatever the fuck they want (organic of course as we aren’t complete mutants yet), be off meds and sustain health.
I’ll keep asking questions and maybe dabble in the diet if I feel up to it, we’ll see as it’s already been several years of me sitting back on this one. I do feel better on Dihydromycetin, which I can’t recall where I read the enzyme battle between Vit A and alcohol (which I’m severely intolerant to and genetically can’t remove from the body well)… maybe that is an indication of Vit A issues for me as well… pfft… who knows.
Dang Matt! I meant to say, Lazy may NOT be the right way to describe yourself… a lot of imbalances can affect our motivation to change/do shit and it’s intense.
Dr. Smith says that the detox pathway that handles alcohol also handles aldehydes, vitamin A and glyphosate. Any load of any of those is using the capacity of that pathway, making it more difficult to detox the others. Alcohol takes first priority.
That makes sense all, has anyone else tried Dihydromyricetin and found it helpful like I have? I believe it supports this pathway, at least with overproducing alcohol within the body (esp if overrun with parasitic/candida/SIBO infections etc. which all serve a purpose but in the meantime kick out garbage). Might be something worth adding in….
I do ok with coffee, in fact it helps me detox I feel but it HAS to be one particular brand or things go sideways fast. I didn’t drink coffee until my late 30’s because of this and realized, coffee technically wasn’t the issue.. how they process it and the contaminants were (and it’s not bulletproof;) Oddly, any decaf, even when processed the clean way makes me feel rotten. Not sure why but I’m getting off topic here.
“Dr. Smith”. That was funny. Oh, and he’s wrong. If one of the three were ‘using the CAPACITY’, we’d be dead.
Common sense.
Yeah I can’t do any alcohol or caffeine whatsoever, perhaps another indicator that my liver is central to my “vitamin A intolerance.”
Matt I highly recommend hair test. You can have much more micro nutrient imbalances not just vit A.. For example you were-are? eating a lot of refined carbs. Which will deplete vit B1 very fast. Have you tried high dose B1? I would say most people are B1 deficient + also magnesium, zinc, molybdenum, chromium, maybe folate. Detoxing vit A is important, but in most cases it’s not just one thing..
I haven’t. It’s definitely “one thing” when it comes to my asthma, eczema, allergies, etc. that I’ve alleviated by avoiding vitamin A-rich foods. But it’s not like I’m in perfect health here, lol. I’m still really limited in terms of my stress tolerance. I can’t work or exercise very much without having a bad time. I’m better in those departments than I was several years ago when I started, but far from being a normal, vibrant dude able to sit down and write for a couple hours like I used to, or do real exercise.
It really looks like low B1. You should try high dose B1. Some people do best on basic form which is thiamin hydrochlorid that is in every B complex supplement, but you need high doses like 1000-1500mg a day for months and/or you can try benfotiamin which needs to be metabolized like hydrochlorid but you can absorb much more so you need only 200-300mg a day or there is form of B1 TTFD which goes directly to work. But because it will bypass all regulatory mechanisms some people have problems with it. I personally take combination of benfotiamin 150mg and 100mg of thimain hydrohlorid a day. B1 is the first thing that is depleted by stress of any kind, consumption of refined carbs, alcohol etc.. Everybody should take it..
Btw you have also amalgams right? So that means you have also chronic mercury toxicity.. I had only 3 amalgams and I had huge issues with mercury toxicity. It basically ruined the best years of my life from 13 to like 25yo.. I would work with Dr. Smith for sure. Remove safely amalgams and replace them with some safer BPA free composite. Do hair test and start removing that mercury very slowly only with minerals especially selenium. It was crazy when I started taking selenium which is replaced by mercury in the body.. That’s why I had thyroid issues etc.. You simply need to remove toxins and give the body all essential micronutrients so your energy production can be 100%. With mercury toxicity, B1, magnesium, selenium, zinc etc.. deficiency your body can’t metabolize sugars. Just makes excess of lactic acid aka chronic fatigue/fibromyalgia, adrenal fatigue etc..
I definitely hope to get around to that someday.
Matt, I really hope to hear you are thriving again soon. After a few sleeps, I second Jiri Hutecka, to zoom out a little on your focus with Vit A as the answer (food for thought here) because I strongly feel it’s not the root cause behind your symptoms. I’m not an expert in healing but an expert in not healing. I don’t want to see people suffer like I did going down these rabbit holes. There is a pattern- I still get sucked in, hence why I’m here! ;)
I really don’t think restrictive dieting (when whole foods) is the answer long term and it will work against resilience in time. In fact I know it’s not, as someone whose been on a restrictive diet since food was introduced as a baby and continues to be somewhat until I fix foundational issues (mainly residing in the brain). Cutting “real food” out is a temporary fix, necessary but not the answer and I mention because new issues will pop up down the road as a result.
Unfortunately, now you are wired in the brain to think Vit A=inflammation-and so it is- you may have created this reality based on initial improvement that doesn’t even trace back to this idea accurately (so many variables). Your body will continue to prove this belief as if it’s genetically etched in stone as your “unique issue”. You’ve created it through a nervous system reaction and there is a special place in the brain it now resides like a program. Your ego may search out proof to enforce this belief even further backing you into a corner. Of course this could sound like new age alternative health BS (and maybe it is? I can totally eat my words later;) but at what point do we stop this archaic 101 alternative healing of restrictive dieting craziness. I really see all these theories as an approach of the past now. My gut always brings me back to this space when I revisit this concept to heal. In reality, I’m trying to get out of the real work of dealing with the hard work of retraining my brain and taking control of my body. Yes, Vit A foods for some reason may trigger a strong accumulative response in you but it’s the environment its in (you have a loaded gun for some reason and these foods pull the trigger now). But it’s not the actual food being the problem, it’s an association of other variables and I suspect now reinforced with the belief. I hope you don’t take offence to my thoughts, it’s simply conclusions I’ve come to in my experience.
Of course do what keeps inflammation down, as I do, but I’d be looking at other modalities and root causes beyond the food. Based on my experience, I’d be doing more brain retraining, then later considering detox for metal, molds, forever chemicals etc. because it will be fucking painful if you force your body into a healing state when it’s not dealt with internal conflicting beliefs/mini traumas. Not to mention if detox pathways aren’t open, ooof. This food focus, it’s too superficial for long term results and will lead to more issues down the road -IMO- which means absolutely nothing ha ha!
Wishing we all find health, question our beliefs and become aware of how we filter “reality” as our body is so literal in interpreting what we tell it through emotion/energy/thoughts and well, things get weird when we’re still wired for fear as if it’s still Flintstone days.
Just for a little perspective…
I’m mostly avoiding fruits and above-ground vegetables. Fruits and above-ground vegetables are pretty recent additions to the human diet. Tomatoes have been consumed in large quantities for just two centuries, and are now by far the most widely-consumed nonstarchy plant food.
That doesn’t mean that a diet without them is better, but we’re still pretty early in the non-starchy plant eating experiment. And as children we all intuitively dislike most of them. But you know, when the superior human intellect steps in and says, “These are good for you, you should eat them because they are good for you,” we start choking them down until we develop a taste for them (or at least, a taste for them with tons of butter, cheese, or ranch to disguise them).
I’d argue that there is absolutely nothing in our innate biological programming telling us that these foods are beneficial. All human diets the world over gravitated to some type of combination of meat/fish and starch with little else added to it.
Sorry I meant to say in third paragraph: “In reality, I’m trying to get out of the real work of dealing with retraining my brain and instead think I can take take control of my body through diets etc. “
I agree w/Niki. Restrictive diets only lead to worsening health. The thread on the Ray Peat forum is incredibly telling and disturbing at the same time.
At the start, quite a few people were against Grant’s hypothesis, but then 10-20 pages in, they start to feel like…hey, everyone else is doing it, and feeling better, maybe I should too…and before you know it, they’re strong advocates.
One person, “vinero”, turned into a rabid dictator of sorts, scolding anyone who dare question the ‘genius’ of the engineer. As far as I could tell by scrolling through quickly, he did this for 200+ pages, maybe more.
Then, near the last page of that thread, he realized he’d been using BUTTER for his fat source, which is a great source of vitamin A. He estimated it at 3,000ius a day. Something that should’ve supposedly killed anyone on that protocol. Yet he felt better and insisted it was due to his near-zero intake.
https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/grant-genereuxs-theory-of-vitamin-a-toxicity.24722/page-379
The dude should start a new thread specifically pointing out this error and the obvious fallacy of his experience, if only to save others from wading through that mess only to find out it was a fraud.
Another…can’t remember her name (sunshine?)…was against it at first, then became a rabid supporter…until she ended up with serious jaw and teeth issues, so much so that she couldn’t CHEW anything.
Sigh.
Anyway, I’m bitching about this because similar things have happened to me because I was told I’m salicylate intolerant or oxalate intolerant, etc.. And things just got worse.
The thing to do is to find out WHY you can’t tolerate certain foods, and as Niki says, it’s often deeply ingrained in our subconscious, often from a very early age, and brain retraining — any form — can start to heal that faulty thinking, and slowly but surely retrain the way we think of ‘reality’. Matt — there could very well be a strong nocebo effect because of this subconscious thinking.
I’ll leave you with this before and after video of a guy who was CERTAIN he was allergic to basically everything. Turns out he wasn’t.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIGb2fvtxIM&t=451s
I didn’t restrict anything for years and felt relatively fine, even great at the beginning, then ran into a serious health emergency (unable to breathe, worsened by asthma medication), and was forced into restriction. A vitamin A free diet was a lot LESS restrictive than what I was doing to control the asthma before I found it, as I was only eating one food, lol. So it was quite amazing to find that there were dozens of foods I could eat without having asthma, and that I could piece together a diet with all the components I need to thrive otherwise (fat, protein, sugar, starch, salt). It was also great to discover that I could eat anything for a day or two without much negative recourse, so every week or two I’d still toss back a pizza or some seafood or sushi or whatever.
Ray Peat forum, lol. Don’t try to use the mental health status of people lurking there against me, haha. As far as butter, supposedly it’s a rich source of retinol binding protein which is why it’s not as problematic as other sources of A. I had butter frequently for quite some time, but eventually gave up the small amount I was having as I still had itchy elbows and eczema. As far as dental health, mine has never been better, although I attribute some of that to my ~weekly chewing exercise. It’s been so good in fact that I decided to see if going for a long time without brushing had any negative effect. It hasn’t. That was 17 months ago!
My wife has eaten an unrestricted diet for the last 10 years. We’re headed to the dentist to get her dentures adjusted in 20 minutes, lol.
So, I don’t know if you guys are jealous that I’ve found the answer to most of my health riddles or you’re just bummed that the answer isn’t eat whatever the fuck you want, but it’s not just in my head I assure you. I’m not manifesting rashes and shit with my mind when I eat thai curry or drink orange juice or eat papaya. Those things sent me warning signs for years before I finally found Grant’s theory and gave it a try (such as getting sunburned after eating them).
Exactly Kelly!
I sweep my own doorstep and not concerned with others beliefs as long as I shared something I feel is helpful- once. I dropped a seed and you don’t like it- that’s A-OK with me Matt ;) And we can speak with respect to one another regardless of what life experience has shown true for ourselves. I fought this brain (essentially “damage”/adaptation) theory as the foundational issue to all these health issues 20yrs ago… now we have the science, imaging, processes and proof to back it up.
Personally, I’m not a fan of the DNRS program or Annie Hopper for the matter. BUT some of the brain science translates into similar better programs, combining with German New Medicine etc. For anyone else that reads this and is interested in my take – not for you Matt ;) That’s crystal clear!
You have to be at a certain point in a healing journey (as cliche as that is to say).. and I hope you never end up there Matt because what do I know about your situation, maybe you re an outlier? I only wanted to save you from some suffering and inconvenience. The comment about your girlfriend’s teeth and not restricting foods in response to my thoughts was clearly misconstruing my message and an over simplified conclusion. That topic alone opens a can of worms that I can’t bother to get into. I hope she heals better and maybe soon they can regrow teeth in the mouth, stem cell shit and mad science stuff likely isn’t that far around the corner.
I didn’t come here to debate, as for some reason people think it’s a useful use of time, energy and to enforce beliefs they aren’t 100% actually sure about. This is my last and final chit chat here :) I came here to actually consider this approach for myself and realized I was falling into an old pattern and I’ve learned over and over in 36 yrs what’s what and will continue to learn. I’m not jealous because I want the world to be healthier, behave kinder, be more intelligent as I’m a little embarrassed and worried about humanity, I don’t lose sleep but it’s pretty bad. I’m focused on me, how I can heal, change, filter the world, be non-reactive to what others think etc. and so I’m not on anyone else’s thoughts, doesn’t effect my daily experience haha! I was truly trying to be nice- maybe it’s the East Coast Canadian in me.
If this approach truly makes you a happier person and you feel great physically with resilience by following it, I’m happy for you… may that continue for years to come!
All the best to everyone here reading this! Peace Out!
Hey Matt, appreciate your reply again. And definitely not jealous. As Niki says, we can put things out there and people of course will choose for themselves.
And I’m not saying I’m right, although perhaps it’s come off that way. I’m just trying to warn against restricting one’s diet too much.
Anyway, I agree Niki — I’m not a fan of DNRS either, for various reasons — but that was a good example of how the subconscious can affect one’s health. There are at least a dozen if not more similar or better methods out there.
Good luck to you both.
Sunburned from drinking orange juice?!?!? :)
Yes, sunburned from OJ. I thought it was the weirdest thing and even posted about it on Facebook to see if anyone else knew what the hell was going on. I fasted on OJ for about a day and a half, drinking a couple gallons. At the time I was going to the beach all the time and spending a ton of time in the sun. I had a dark tan and wasn’t ever getting burned. But after the OJ binge my skin was on FIRE after 5 minutes. I turned totally red for days and even peeled. A few months later I repeated it and sure enough, sunburned in minutes.
What’s hilarious is that now I NEVER go to the beach and tan, but when I do even after months of vampire-like living, I don’t burn at all. Last year I went consistently for a couple of weeks just trying to force myself to spend more time out and in the sun, and I wasn’t tanning at all. Pretty crazy.
Of course all the secrets to getting a darker tan is to eat more vitamin A, lol. Especially carotenes (orange juice has a lot, as does everything orange-colored). Tan accelerator anyone? https://www.carrotsun.co.uk/collections/tan-accelerators
Just wanted to say thanks Matt, been following you off and on for ten years or so.
You helped confirm my PUFA suspicions way back when there was very little info on the matter.
I now see PUFAs as one of the main fuel sources for the fire of inflammation lit mostly by retinoic acid.
I knew something was always missing… a trigger
I can now eat a good amount of carbs without a downward spiral of health including terrible digestion.
Please don’t stop sharing your journey
https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/full/10.1089/vim.2020.0330?fbclid=IwAR0FkQXKY21KUcmtksHMz-Bgv4ym9FGzQprC9XA3HsT7KCM-MJxRNp_8GlA&
Liver Damage and Exposure to Toxic Concentrations of Endogenous Retinoids in the Pathogenesis of COVID-19 Disease: Hypothesis
My boss shared this at work today! (I work for a relatively enlightened supplement company)
Well tell him to be careful sharing that stuff. People who think vitamin A can be toxic are a bunch of wacko kooks, lol.
Hey Matt
In one of your older books, you mention Dr John Demartini. His work has been so incredibly helpful to me and I wonder if you still use any of his tools or consult with him? Do you think he could help with your ongoing health issues?
Your earlier work on refeeding was extremely helpful and crucial to my recovery from a vicious eating disorder. (But minniemaud completely fucked me haha glad that’s over)
No I haven’t. In fact, I kinda blame him a little bit as he’s the one who kind of led me to think I was invincible and should be able to work in a highly focused state day and night as long as I was feeling “inspired,” lol. Everyone has their own limits, and I exceeded mine and broke a gasket. My health is pretty good nowadays and I’m feeling better all the time, so I feel like I’m on the right track. My fitness and stress tolerance has improved quite a bit this year, and I expect to keep going until I’ve pretty well dug myself out of the hole I fell into.
I get what you mean with the whole “inspired” thing with John Demartini’s teachings and that’s how I first interpreted his work as well. I used to get so “high” with new health ideas and protocols.
But then I revisited him and learnt about neutrality and the objective state of mind he speaks about. It took a long time for me to really learn how to center myself and think about things truly objectively. Moderation and all that.
That “inspired” and “focussed” state was probably meant to be more a balanced state (rather than a manic state.)
Anyway sorry for rambling, I just really wanted to share with you because I guess you helped me so much on my journey to health. And you are the one who led me to Johns teachings.
Glad to hear you’re doing well! I’ve also been having luck with health stuff, pretty much magic shits everyday! Thanks again Matt. You’ve been incredible to follow all these years. Incredibly honest and brave.
Matt, there seem to be some big contradictions between some of the things I have read in a couple of your books I just read and this Vit A stuff. Now I have no idea what to believe or do to support my family’s health. In Food
Ninjas you argued that restricting food and sugar preconception, during pregnancy, and in early life can cause lifelong metabolic retardation in kids, but I joined Mr Smith’s community and his vit A depletion diet does all of that from what I can tell, restricting fat and sugar and dairy, as well as MANY other foods you promote eating copious amounts of in your other books. You also said coconut oil isn’t great in this interview, which stuns me after reading Eat for Heat, Food Ninjas, and Diet Recovery and past comment threads where you recommend that people invest in drums of refined coconut oil. I really want you to write an update for all the people who have read your other books so that people who have been influenced by your previous work can be aware if you have changed your mind on any of those concepts. If I sound off putting it’s because I am a concerned mother of two children and I really want to know what I can do that is best for my kids. I am tired of being harmed by health advice (WAPF, year of GAPS diet for my son, paleo). I thought your work was different but now I’m worried that its yet one more thing that will cause more harm than good, or maybe this Vit A depletion diet is the harmful thing and you were right to begin with. I just don’t know what to believe anymore and I wonder if you would be willing to clear some things up. I wanted to contact you privately but I can’t find a place to do that.
I’m actually working on a kid’s book called Mommy’s Weird Diet, haha. I still VERY much believe that dietary restriction is more harmful than it is good in most cases. That doesn’t mean that no one will ever benefit from dietary restriction. I unfortunately have not found a way to keep from having to restrict my own diet. I can’t eat foods with Vitamin A. I’ve tried. Lots of times. It ends in disaster if I overdo it. It’s probably that my liver is just screwed up, and if I found a way to fix it I’d be able to eat whatever I wanted. But I can’t just eat whatever while I wait to find that solution. I’d literally die. But not restricting my diet had TONS of benefits and my life was great until I developed asthma and had to go to extremes to fix it. I wouldn’t wish this low A diet on my worst enemy, lol. I still eat coconut oil, tons of sugar, salt, calories, processed foods, etc. When I don’t I feel awful quickly and just end up bingeing on all that stuff anyway.
So there’s a small update. You’ll love the new kid’s book when I’m done with it though. Expecting a March release :)
As for not knowing, I assure you that those who are sure about nutrition are definitely wrong. That’s the only thing to be sure about when it comes to nutrition.
Matt diet of coconut oil, sugar and processed foods is really bad for your liver and microbiom as well. I think you have fakty liver, disbiosis and all Kindl of deficiencies.. I woud start with lean Meat and starch diet. No added fat, no fatty meats, for sure no saturated fats and add legumes. This will give your liver break. Pounding saturace fat with fructose is the worst thing that you can do to your liver. You don’t follow Dr. Smith or what? He would tell you for sure that this type of diet can’t end up good.
Omg I hate this autocorection. ;-)
No don’t follow anyone’s diet. I don’t really know the extent of what Dr. G is into. I don’t read health stuff anymore, and even if I did I wouldn’t put any effort in to follow much of anything. Just do what seems to work and be sustainable for me (VERY easy). I don’t eat much coconut oil at all. Maybe 1T every few days. I eat more olive oil than any other fat I’d say. 90% of my protein is from skinless chicken and egg whites, so not exactly pounding some fatty diet. I do notice feeling terrible without eating a fair amount of fat though. I struggle to get in enough calories to feel my best.
Matt, I am SO excited for your new book! Can’t wait. Thank you so much for the response. What is it about the low Vit A diet you don’t like? Beef and rice doesn’t sound too bad
Yeah I don’t do well with repetitive eating. I gave up on restricted eating, so when I had to go back to it I really hated it, and that hasn’t gone away. I don’t just eat beef and rice. I eat a lot of skinless chicken breast, breaded and cooked in olive oil or coconut oil and eating with rice and lemon. I enjoy that, but it gets old. I eat egg whites and/or turkey bacon or turkey sausage with grits, oats, or cream of wheat for breakfast most of the time. Sometimes homefries. I eat beans, sometimes have banana smoothies, and eat lots of cookies (boring vanilla ones mostly with no dairy or anything, and I seriously despise them, lol. But I feel terrible without consistently eating sweet foods with my meals).
But before all this almost everything I ate was from restaurants. It was awesome. Sushi, thai food, mediterranean food, tons of pizza and burgers and stuff like that, seafood/shellfish, and lots of beans, rice, and chicken while traveling with tons of fresh squeezed juices. Hell yeah I miss that, haha.
Hey Matt,
I don’t mean to undermine or belittle your issues with vitamin A at all but do you think it’s possible you have issues with salicylates? (I think they are associated with asthma?)
That was my issue, I had some genetic testing and found out my liver had problems with phase 2 detox. Now I just eat low salicylate which is quite easy and pretty much all symptoms are gone.
I don’t go “no-salicylate” though. At first I was more strict but now I eat a little bit more. And strangely enough… low salicylate diets are quite low in beta carotene.
But some of your best advice that I follow is regularity, the body loves rhythm and regularity. Eating mostly the same stuff everyday is great for the digestive system. Excellent shits.
But not robotically of course, I still eat cravings. And switch it up for dinner.
No, absolutely no chance it’s a salicylate issue. I can eat all kinds of stuff on the high salicylate list, especially apples, lemon, root beer, grape juice, olives, peanut butter. I have eaten tons of those without issue at various points.
The reason vitamin A causes asthma is very direct, unlike various allergens that serve as triggers. I think this theory is accurate: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11502488/
Asthma triggers I used to have don’t trigger asthma when my A intake is super low (exercise, pet dander). But I can make them triggers again in a week or two by eating high-A foods regularly. I’ve repeated this like 10 times, lol.
The worst foods for me are probably dairy, egg yolks, and seafood of various kinds (haven’t tried liver, but every time I tried it back in the WAPF days I felt terrible after). Basically my favorite animal foods, lol.
In the plant kingdom, worst offenders are tomatoes, papayas, spicy peppers, orange juice. Basically my four favorite plant foods, lol. FML, haha.
I don’t mind low vit A diet at all. The only vit A foods that I really miss is watermelon in the summer. I had no problems with eating 5kg of watermelon as a snack. That is almost 30 000iu of vit A just from that “snack” LOL. That is the amount I wouldn’t eat in a month today…
Wow sorry to hear you can’t eat your favourite foods :(
Dairy is a weird one for me. I can drink whole milk but can’t have butter or condensed milk… so weird.
And eating liver always makes me feel a little strange.
Do you take supplements at all? I’ve tested so many in the past decade and nothing works for me. I’m trying to find a good prenatal but everything makes me anxious or causes digestive pain.
Do you think not taking a prenatal/folate is dangerous? None of the food I eat is fortified with any synthetic vitamins/folic acid.
No, I’ve never been very fond of supplements. Never noticed much of anything positive from anything I tried, and playing around with highly concentrated, isolated substances always seemed risky to me. You can take folic acid without taking all the other stuff that comes in prenatal vitamins. Folate deficiency is very serious, but it’s obviously not something many people ever develop in the modern world. But if you’re restricting a lot of plant foods it might be smart to supplement at least a little.
It’s hard to solve any chronic health issues if you don’t “believe” in testing and supplementing what you need or take our what is in toxic amounts in your body.. You will never fix anything by eating what feels good at that moment or shortly after you eat it. For example people toxic in copper that have depleted adrenals crave sugar and copper rich foods. Because they run low on energy and the body is telling them they need fast source of energy so first thing that looks good to them is something like chocolate.. But in reality they need to stop eating copper rich foods. They need to stop depleting everything in their body by eating sugar. They need to start taking B vitamins,C vitamin, zinc, molybdenum, more protein etc.. to restore adrenal function, copper transport protein synthesis etc.. What is hard to understand on this is that you really don’t feel good when you stop eating stimulating foods and your body completely shuts down.. But it’s needed the body needs to just do nothing and regenerate. If I was you Matt I would work with Dr. Smith for sure. do hair and blood tests every 4 months and taking supplements and eating diet that will fix you over time. I think you are deficient in a lot of things. Maybe toxic as well. For example you have amalgams right? That’s huge problem. It ruined my life as well.. It completely fucks mineral balance, antioxidant status, microbiome everything.. This “health” thing is simply very complex it’s not just about diet.. Some magic pill. It’s everything together..
LOL. I couldn’t muster even 10% of the effort required to do that. I just really don’t give much of a fuck. I don’t have the discipline or desire to even take care of myself in the most basic of ways (like go to bed at a reasonable hour or go grocery shopping). A big part of it is just my personal circumstances. I have two extremely dependent dependents in my life. I can’t leave them alone, and one can hardly walk. So I’ve been almost totally housebound for the last couple of years. I have to do everything for them, and in addition to that I get to pay $40K in medical expenses each year or more, and I have to make all that money plus another $60K minimum for living expenses and taxes by myself in a 10-hour workweek from home. I’m too focused on basic survival to worry about my hair minerals, lol.
This is in reply to Jiri’s nonsense about adrenals, copper “toxicity”, sugar, etc..
One may crave sugar or carbs precisely because the body isn’t getting enough carbs to fuel itself, so adrenaline goes up to break down protein to provide the ‘sugar’/fuel it needs. Common sense. And no supplements necessary.
As for testing — “Dr.” Smith relies on hair testing, which is notoriously unreliable.
But more than that — if Smith and Genereux are so confident in their hypothesis, why don’t they discuss it in public? Why the need to make everything private, or by paying a fee to join? Why not allow comments on Smith’s youtube videos? Are they (and is he) afraid some of their conclusions may not be valid?
I would never put my trust in a chiropractor who’s so unsure of his own assuredness.
Kaya,
Going low salicylate — or oxalate, etc — you’ll start out feeling ‘better’, but as you gradually eliminate more and more foods, you’ll end up starving your bacteria, resulting in a depleted microbiome, which will just make EVERYTHING worse.
Glycine helps detox salicylates, as does sulfate. Both help phase 2. That’s why you’re intolerant.
I wasted 10 years, and got a LOT worse doing the low-salicylate diet.
Hi Marcia
Thanks so much for your concern. I have definitely thought about this as I don’t like to “diet” but this is the only “diet” so far that has me feeling unrestricted.
Growing up I always had an aversion to vegetables and most fruits. But I have given up on a lot of fruits I enjoy, I still have fresh lemon juice though.
As for gut bacteria, I eat wholemeal bread, make whole meal cookies.
Most weeks I make a big batch of bone broth for extra glycine.
I also do well with cocoa and dark chocolate so that’s fiber as well.
I still do some salicylates, I have a small handful of nuts everyday.
It’s strange that when I look back to my childhood, I was just eating what was nice to me and it was generally low salicylate.
I understand that I may change my mind again in the months to come, but I really am open to adding more salicylates, but I’m mostly just seeing how my bowel movements are. They’re decent at the moment lol
Thanks again Marcia, I know this health journey has been so horrific for a lot of us. And the answers we find are so different and sometimes shocking. Like Matt, I don’t think anyone thought he would be doing low Vitamin A after being a fan of his “eat for heat” stuff.
Life is suffering. Lol