180DegreeHealth, from the beginning, has been about two primary things:
- Slaying widely-held nutritional myths
- Figuring out what the hell is causing an accelerated increase in nearly all health problems worldwide over the past century, the last 40 years in particular, and determine how best to turn those trends “180 degrees.”
Admittedly, 180D has done a lot more of #1 than #2. In fact, because the pursuit of #2 attracted so many extreme health fanatics and disordered eaters, I felt obligated to mostly drop the latter and shout “EAT AN EFFING SLICE OF PIZZA AND RELAX” from the rooftops.
But it’s scary out there people. For example, in just 40 years, the Alzheimer’s rate in 75-85 year olds in North America increased by 4,000%. Many other inflammatory and degenerative diseases have seen increases nearly as scary in that time period. We can’t just give up because some of our failed extreme diet experiments didn’t work out. We’ve got to figure this out.
And so, I present to you today a really great lead about what might be causing all this, something that might possibly slay THE most sacred nutritional cow, and something that might have real potential to reverse the horrifying recent health trends.
Keep in mind, this is mostly just a theory. Most theories are completely wrong. A very few are even partially correct. I’m not 100% convinced about it, and you shouldn’t be either. You shouldn’t be 100% convinced about anything in science. Nothing is ever set in stone, and one new discovery can dramatically upend everything that has come before it.
What’s the theory?
The theory is that excess accumulation of Vitamin A in the body is the primary cause of body-wide inflammation. This inflammation is invoking an immune response, and the immune response itself is doing even more damage on top of it (via autoimmunity, basically).
Sounds pretty preposterous upon first glance. I mean, we’re talking about Vitamin A here. You know, the FIRST VITAMIN ever discovered. It’s a substance found in almost every food. The most common form of vitamin A is retinol, and is used on the eye, hence the name (retinol as in retina).
But it starts to sound a lot less preposterous when you think of it like this…
There has been a huge increase in most inflammatory and immune conditions over the last 40 years. So what changed significantly 40 years ago and continued to get worse?
Well, there’s the low-fat diet craze. There’s the switch to high fructose corn syrup. We started playing video games and using computers. We started using a hell of a lot more chemicals, additives, and flavor enhancers in food.
Those sound bad, and most pin the blame such things without needing to see much evidence, but there’s not really much of a theory that one can build about how those things cause such a tidal wave of inflammation and the immune system basically going apeshit to boot.
The increase in vitamin A consumption, however, is much more compelling. Right in line with the dramatic rise in illness was a dramatic rise in vitamin A consumption.
- Right around 1980 the U.S. started pumping supplemental vitamin A into milk, breakfast cereal, infant formula, margarine, and other foods. Other nations followed suit.
- The use of vitamin A-loaded multivitamins absolutely skyrocketed (over 50% of U.S. citizens take a vitamin A-laden multivitamin daily)
- The skin cancer scare started, and everyone began lathering themselves with sunscreen–rich in vitamin A palmitate.
- Acne creams chock full of vitamin A (I used to use prescription Retin-A) were squirted on every pimpled face, later followed by the notorious vitamin A-based Accutane
But that’s not all!
The consumption of foods rich in plant-sourced vitamin A (as carotenoids) went wild! Global tomato consumption more than doubled. Year-round fresh fruit and vegetable availability increased dramatically. The boon in healthy nutrition (attempts at it, at least) increased wildly. Fruit and vegetable juice consumption skyrocketed. I mean, hardly anyone knew what a smoothie was in 1980. In 2005 I heard a kid once say, “Who the hell eats a smoothie for breakfast?” The 2018 answer to that question is of course, “EVERYONE!”
And then of course there’s salads. And kale. KALE! Yes, humans have actually been trying to eat it for years now.
Okay, I think we can all agree that the consumption of vitamin A has gone way up over the past 40 years. Now, why the hell is that a bad thing?
So, certainly you’ve heard something along the lines of “taking too many vitamins can be bad.” Yeah, REAL bad. Vitamin A is by far the vitamin with the worst reputation when it comes to getting too much of it. The list of symptoms you can get from taking too much vitamin A is a mile long, and doesn’t sound very pleasant.
That’s an acute condition, and can be easily and quickly fixed by going back to relatively normal vitamin A consumption levels.
The theory put forward by Grant Genereux is that vitamin A, a fat soluble vitamin, is stored away in the liver. The liver does NOT have unlimited storage capacity for vitamin A, so when the liver becomes saturated with it, it gets stored as retinoic acid (a nasty, inflammation-inducing substance used for chemotherapy and acid peels and the like) all over the body–where it becomes a trigger for inflammation and a belligerent response from the immune system.
Once you reach that point of saturation, all of the vitamin A you ingest is a potent “poison.” Grant believes that the disease patterns seen worldwide, and the sudden rise, has all the markings of a poisoning, not of a degenerative disease process:
Does it not make some intuitive sense that whatever is causing these diseases; it just has to be something pervasive, yet subtle, in our environment? Something that is so obvious that it’s being ignored and overlooked. Something so little and almost trivial, that it’s never too much of a suspect. Something that is right under our noses. Something we’ve been told, and we assume, is good for us. Yet, it’s something that can have a profound, and devastating effect on the human body.
Additionally, once you understand that the root cause of the autoimmune diseases, and many of the mental health disorders, is a poisoning, you’ll understand why all the various drugs are utterly useless. Or maybe this vitamin A subclinical toxicity is not obvious? After all, this is a very subtle and tricky situation that develops slowly over a long period. It’s more or less documented to be hugely unlikely to happen on as wide a scale as it is. But it is happening, just with mostly small or subclinical amounts of this potential toxin accumulating in the wrong places in the human body.
Just to be clear here, this is not at all classic hypervitaminosis A. No, it’s far worse because the saturation levels are higher. I think it’s insidious Vitaminosis A. This is a very slow build up to near saturation and thereafter remaining in a state of chronic subtle overflow of what now becomes a toxin. This process is so well documented and clinically proven, that I think we can consider it to be an absolute fact. Earlier on I asked what could possibly cause the head to toe self-destruction of the human body that we see with the autoimmune diseases. Now we know; it’s actually a well-proven, and well-documented fact too. It’s retinoic acid.
How could a “vitamin” be causing all of this?
Well, in Grant’s second book, Poisoning for Profit, he does a pretty damn good job of breaking down the flaws in the original experiments that identified this substance as the very first “vitamin.” It may not actually be a vitamin at all, but simply a common toxic substance found in food that our livers normally keep under containment, and that our bodies have learned how to use over generations (for example, vitamin A is released from the liver to fight infections. It works since, you know, it’s poison!). As most of you nutrition nerds know, liver is by far the most concentrated source of vitamin A, and is considered by most nutritionists to be a superfood. (Cod liver oil has almost a religious following in circles like The Weston A. Price Foundation, but many have gotten burned by consuming too much of it. Like, literally burned.)
Grant also bought some gerbils and fed them a zero vitamin A diet with no ill effect. Quite the contrary. Awww, look at those cute lil’ fuckers! Reminds me of my two gerbils back in the day, which I named Koko B. Ware and Leapin’ Lanny Poffo, because I’m the awesomest at naming stuff.
Some frisky gerbils that outlived the supposed vitamin A deficient lab animals in experiments nearly 100 years ago is mildly reassuring at best though. What about humans?
Grant has been avoiding all sources of vitamin A 100% for nearly four years I believe. Still kicking. Still able to see. In fact, he reversed a mile-long laundry list of serious, debilitating health problems doing so (eczema, weight gain, and dementia most notably), and even had most of his gray hair turn back to brown in his 50’s.
The Andersen family has avoided vitamin A for 17 years as of this photo (parents aged 44 and 57 in the photo). Even the kids have hardly had a trace of vitamin A in their entire lives. Man, they’re really in rough shape! They have no eyes! :)
Vitamin A is supposed to be a key nutrient for skin health. Sorry lady, I want to see more of your skin. For science of course!
Note, Charlene “lizard skin” Andersen has noted her health problems (asthma, eczema, Lyme disease, and others) are rekindled by consuming liver, which she grew up eating frequently and having a strong affinity for.
Enough of that. Suffice it to say that there’s a LOT more to the vitamin A story.
While most will just assume that Grant healed himself of his problems by removing all allergens (since he whittled his diet down to just a few foods), or PUFA (he consumed hardly any in his diet as well)–or just flat out dismiss it because he’s an engineer so therefore couldn’t possibly know his ass from a hole in the wall–I assure you there is more here than that. Again, the theory shouldn’t sweep you off your feet and turn you into a zealot overnight. But it’s something to be open to.
As Grant states at the end of his first book, Extinguishing the Fires of Hell:
However, even with all this evidence, I’m not asking you to simply believe that this theory is correct. I’m only asking you to believe that it is quite possible for it to be correct. Whether it is correct or not is still an open question. The responsible answer to that question is that we really don’t know just yet. The great part of this investigation is that you now have an opportunity to help prove it one way or the other. We need more evidence, and a lot more results to prove it correct or not. The quickest way to get that evidence is for more people to apply this simple little diet experiment and report their results. I wish I could say the results will be fast and easy, but they will not be. This process will take time. I expect somewhere around three to twelve months, or longer for most adults. Therefore, we need to be both patient and diligent. Additionally, we need to be very careful not to jump to conclusions. This is serious business, deadly serious business. Please don’t report false results. Don’t report wishful thinking. I’d view doing so to be completely amoral and regarded as fraudulent. Also, please report all results. Both failures and successes need to be reported. For eczema, psoriasis, lupus, and most other autoimmune diseases, please post both before and after pictures.
So what should you do with this information??
Well, for starters I think it would be safer to avoid vitamin A-laden supplements, including cod liver oil, and fortified foods (milk and breakfast cereal being the worst), until we have more information. We need to be SURE that these things are beneficial and not harmful before consuming them willy nilly. Thanks but no thanks for not diligently doing your homework before implementing nation-wide dietary changes, government! (grumbles, feels slight remorse over burning that Ron Paul poster a few years back).
Also, like I have recommended since always, you should use shirts and hats as sunscreen, not white goop full of vitamin A. Vitamin A makes the skin super sensitive to sunlight. I stopped using it because I got tired of getting horribly burned in minutes when I forgot to put it on, even with a dark tan. As Grant points out in his book, slathering vitamin A cream on rodents causes skin cancer. Not an INCREASE in cancer rates. 100%. Every. Single. One. Even without sunlight.
That’s what you should do if you’re healthy. That will keep your vitamin A intake likely within the boundaries of what your liver can deal with, and hopefully you won’t run into long-term problems.
You should also keep your liver healthy and highly metabolically active. There are many factors involved in liver health and function, but a couple no brainers are preferentially opting for saturated fat over unsaturated fat (to help avoid fatty liver disease), and keep your metabolism high. The liver is among the most metabolically active tissues in the body, and its metabolic activity slows dramatically to lower metabolic rate when you are overstressed and/or undernourished (calorically). This is perhaps why stress and a lowered metabolism can cause autoimmune flareups, and interventions that raise metabolism and alleviate stress are so effective. For a while at least.
If you’re ill and overrun with an autoimmune disease or other inflammatory, supposedly “incurable” condition, well hell, give a Vitamin A-depleted diet a whirl. What have you got to lose, really? I think this “Villain A” theory is promising enough to explore.
How does one deplete themselves of vitamin A? Eating none of it for 7 months or so should do the trick, if Grant’s estimates are correct. The diet is brutally restrictive, limited mostly to grains (he used rice), white vegetables (think peeled white potatoes, turnips, celeriac, parsnips, jicama, cauliflower), beef, and raisins and grape juice. But it beats eating only beef, which seems to be all the rage these days when it comes to toppling autoimmune conditions and mental disorders.
Note, a diet of beef and water only contains no vitamin A. Coincidence? Decide for yourself.
We’ll discuss this more on an ongoing basis for sure. To best participate in discussions, I recommend reading Grant’s two books HERE and HERE.
And also reading through the lengthy and highly contentious thread on the Ray Peat forum about it HERE. Franko answers questions about it and debates with more energy than I could ever muster, so I would definitely check that out.
And of course read the comments here! I’m sure there will be at least a few hundred.
Chart put together by 180D reader Jeanne of vitamin A content of common foods.
First! (Sorry, Carl)
Poor Carl. Congrats Turtlegurl. This is YOUR time to shine!
:-( I’m going to drink a bottle of cod liver oil. )-:
Sally Fallon would be so proud!
I have at least one interesting anecdote. A client, everytime she tries any vitamin A (per my recommendation…). She feels horrible and needs to stop…
You are obviously so confused. Are you talking A1 or A2? A1 for coagulation found in plant foods or A2 found in nato and fat of meat eating grass and cheese. The world is difficient in A1 but not A2. Don’t confuse people.
This is pretty stupid, you’re talking about vitamin K, not A.
An interesting theory but there are possible explanations. Chris Masterjohn had written a while ago about the need for balance among the fat soluble vitamins. If you have too much of one and too little of the others, then yes it will have a toxic effect. Vitamin A needs to be balanced by vitamin D in a certain ratio.
Regarding the theory about the liver excess of vitamin A, perhaps the person is not eating enough protein with the vitamin A in order to create retinol binding protein to transport the vitamin from the liver to the tissues? Perhaps they are deficient in copper? (This also affects transport of vitamin A from liver to serum).
Basically, I think a person who experiences vitamin A toxicity from the natural sources of it is deficient in a a lot of the other vitamins/minerals and that is the problem.
There are unique problems caused by vitamin A deficiency. It’s necessary for the urea cycle in protein metabolism (without vitamin A there is a significant decrease in ornithine transcarbamoylase enzyme for processing protein). Without a proper functioning urea cycle, you can have ammonia toxicity and that leads to neurological illness and potential death.
There is so much research on vitamin A in PubMed if you look for it. Then there is also the history of humankind going back many, many years eating natural sources of vitamin A and not being harmed by it. Great grandparents and ancestors ate liver and were not suffering from the chronic health epidemics we have today. It is not a poison in my opinion, unless you are taking it from unnatural sources and not balancing it with other nutrients.
DAMN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Grassfed beef has vitamin A in the fat.
Yes, grassfed beef has vitamin A in the fat. The woman shown in the post tried eating it but it aggravated her symptoms so she has stuck with grain fed beef ever since.
Still wondering why I didn’t wake up in a cold sweat after I read that. I don’t know if Wonderland is for me, Matty Hatter….
?:^(
Yours truly,
Guy who’s been reading your blogs for like 10 years and who laughed Thundercats loud at the no eyes thing (standard email footer)
Grain fed beef, high in PUFAs.
Grain fed beef – NOT high in PUFA. At all.
Maybe you’re thinking of pork?
Beef fat only has like 2% PUFAs based on nutrition data.. Probably grain fed. How is that high? Grass fed has more PUFAs. Cows have desaturate enzymes and naturally hydrogenate most of the PUFAs.
Ok, that’s already a major red flag for me. I took a course on cows some years ago. They are just not biologically made to eat grain. It causes serious problems for them. So, cows are made to eat grass, and it produces vitamin A. The only thing you could argue at this point is that we either shouldn’t eat meat or shouldn’t eat the fat at least.
Anyway, hello, Matt, I’m wondering what you think of my situation:
I had my vitamin D tested in late 2015 (as part of trying to solve my chronic insomnia), and it was at 18, very low. The doctor told me to take 10,000 IU daily–that this was the dose he had seen was necessary to keep his patients up to 80, to so-called “ideal.” So I began doing this and also in early 2016 went to work on a farm for three months, where I was getting exposure principally on my arms. In March or April my level was in the 70s. I continued the supplement. I was on a kind of WAPF diet, but without the cod liver oil or even frequent liver consumption. None of those processed sources of vitamin A, just raw milk, eggs and butter.
In late 2016, I noticed my keratosis pilaris was spreading. I’d had it on my upper arms since being a teenager. Suddenly it was on my shoulders, back, etc… I didn’t make any connection with the D. Whenever I did tests my level was still “good”–once I stopped taking it for a couple weeks and my level dropped to the 50s, so a NP told me I needed it.
Mid/late 2017, my lips were suddenly constantly chapped. It was awful. They were always peeling. I read about the vitamin D, A, and K2 connection and dropped the D. I started retinol at 5,000 IU and one K2 drop of 200 mcg daily. My skin immediately dramatically improved. So I’ve been convinced that the D exacerbated a vitamin A deficiency. My KP has not totally disappeared: it flares up a tiny bit at some point almost every day (I don’t take the A at a consistent time of day). I’ve thought that I could use MORE.
I’m 25 and pregnant with my first child. Given the work of Dr. Price I figured I would be at a much higher risk of gingivitus and such ills without taking the A. I hate all this nutrition garbage but I wasn’t doing well without supplements anyway.
Need to add:
In fact I had already lowered my D dosage in late 2017 to 5,000 IU. In the winter of 2017-18 I had an almost constant cold. It was crazy–I had never experienced that and in fact was rarely ever sick. I dropped the D, took A, etc. just before the end of winter and the colds immediately vanished and my lips totally healed.
I’m not at all convinced that vitamin A is bad.
No one is saying that vitamin A is bad. All that Grant is saying is that once your liver is saturated with vitamin A, all sources of vitamin A that you consume become extremely inflammatory. That’s all. No one is saying it’s bad. It’s just that too much is bad, and if you’ve consumed too much and gotten ill from it, the solution is to eat NONE for a while. Like a 8 months or so.
My impression after reading all 3 of Genereux’s books was that *he* is saying Vitamin A is bad. He repeatedly refers to it as a poison. But I agree with Matt. It seems more likely that the problem only begins when the liver is saturated. The thing I just can’t seem to wrap my head around is why only vitamin A? Hypothetically, couldn’t a person have virtually no Vitamin A in their diet, but have a liver that is saturated with chemicals and other toxins, and then have a severe reaction to even the tiniest amount of A? Wouldn’t the solution then be to try to rid the body of the other toxins and not worry so much about vitamin A? I’ve never bought into “liver cleanses” but if that’s possible wouldn’t that help?
I believe vitamin a caused defective tooth enamel in my youngest child. There is plenty of evidence to support the vitamin a inoregnsncy causes problems. I’d suggest you read the Ebooks to understand best. My gingivitis and many other things have been completely cured by resolving a longstanding vitamin c deficit by taking up to 1.5 teaspoons/day of sodium ascorbate.
You’re not thinking about this correctly at all. Humans can eat TONS of vitamin A without ill effect. We’re built to eat vitamin A and store it safely in the liver. But once you exceed your limit, vitamin A starts acting like a potent toxin, and must be avoided completely for an extended period of time.
Interesting..I’ve had Keratosis Pilaris most of my life. In the more recent years I’ve notice it dissapear with sufficient sun exposure.
I was a thin, pasty kid, grew up eating a lot of shitty processed food. So I chalked it up to being nutritionally deficient, but all that processed food is enriched. I guess it could be due to an excess.
Do you think there is a difference in synthetic vitamins opposed to the naturally occurring?
Yeah, I think it would be foolish to equate synthetic and natural substances of any kind. But there are also a lot of foolish people thinking anything natural can’t possibly be harmful, and that’s DEFINITELY not true.
WHITE kernel corn varieties contain little to no beta carotene. Grasses such as fescue and legumes such as alfala contain MUCH greater amounts of beta carotene than a grain such as corn. So, grain fed animals should have much less vitamin A in their fat than grassfed animals…… especially if the grains they are fed are white in color.
Same thing with white fleshed sweet potatoes vs yellow fleshed sweet potatoes or white fleshed peaches vs yellow fleshed peaches and etc..
It has A2 in the fat so cheese as well
Nice synopsis and intro to Grant’s work – thank-you! Thanks also for the links to extra informations.
Read anything about lowered basal body temperature over generations?
I’m pretty sure that’s caused by metabolism-suppressing food and lifestyle factors (PUFA, stress, etc.) in the parents affecting the metabolic rate of the offspring. Then it continues again and again and again, getting worse each generation.
I’ve heard a theory that central heating (usually blasted way too hot) has a hand in that.
I disagree. Dr. William Donald Kelley and the late Dr. Nicholas Gonzalez had a93% cure rate in Cancer patients. They gave Vit A to those patients who were Parasympathetic dominant. But it was just one vitamin of many vitamins and minerals and enzymes in a collective and personalized protocol.
I believe that any vitamin and mineral taken in isolation or in extreme, can be harmful. Metabolic type is also important. If one is a Sympathetic dominant they require Vit D, and not Vit A. So, it also comes down to what type you are, including animals. Not everybody is the same and not everybody needs the same nutrients.
Doubtful they actually had a 93% cure rate.
Quickly disagree if you like. I think Grant has done a pretty good job showing that vitamin A isn’t a nutrient at all.
Yes, ratios of vitamin D and A matter. A lot. Grant has gone so far as to say that the primary benefits attributed to vitamin D are because it interferes with the effects of vitamin A.
Vitamin A may have some purpose/benefits, but instantly shooting down everything Grant has presented because of one supposedly effective protocol that used vitamin A for some patients is being overly quick to judge.
Oh Matt, if you only knew.. I would say to you the same thing, as don’t be so quick to shoot down the Kelley protocol without knowing anything about it. If there is one thing I have learned is that ‘new’ information does not mean, it is better or true.
All hyped up health protocols are shams until proven worthy, including Genereux’s vitamin A theory.
I had a dear friend, pt of Dr Gonzalez, who had two large breasts full of golf ball sized tumors and a prepare to die prognosis. She was then treated without surgery or chemo by Dr G. She had five wonderful years of life and died in her late 60s.
…. and yet everyone still refers to hormone D as a vitamin.
Matt,
What then describes the benefit of adding vitamin A to rice for certain impoverished regions in Africa where vitamin A deficiencies are said to cause blindness? I’m with ya on the fact that the government should not be adding any vitamins or minerals to our foods (i.e. adding iron was a huge mistake), but I think more information is needed to completely discount vitamin A as an essential nutrient. Some of it is probably needed, just not as much as people claim. I can’t believe people following Peat who are taking 50-100,000ius of vitamin A per day.
All I can say is OMG!!! Going through that list (thanks, Jeanne) of Vit A levels in my FAVORITE FOODS and seeing how much of that stuff is in it is horrifying! (that is IF this theory is correct). If it’s true, all Ray Peat followers are doomed!
And again it comes down to this: how much are you willing to give up to have a perfect body? But the thought of getting Alzheimer’s disease (just shoot me please!) will make me think twice about what I’m eating.
There are claims that certain treatments can be “liver cleanses”. Matt- can you “cleanse” your liver (or gallbladder, or anything else in your body?)? If I’m polluted with Vit A in my 60’s, is there any hope? (at least my skin still looks great from the retinol-LOL).
Lianda — I posted about this before, but I wonder if the benefits people report from those liver & gall bladder flushes are because they reduce Vit A stores?
Personally, I wouldn’t do one unless you’ve had a recent ultrasound verifying that you don’t have any real stones. Getting one lodged in a duct would mean emergency surgery.
Good guess. But I suspect Hidden Iron Toxicty is the bigger issue. It’s in everything now. Cultures that eat less iron and eat (or drink) natural herbs that chelate iron, life longer and with less rampant degenerative diseases. That simple.
Huh, everyone curing themselves avoiding vitamin A are eating shitloads of iron. Also, how does iron cause giant skin rashes and asthma?
The iron debate is too long winded to get into here, but knowing some of the sources you’ve read, you know all the answers I’d likely spout off anyway. So I’m sure you are familiar with iron toxicty as a theory for a lot of disease states.
Now I’m not defending vitamin A, and I admit this theory is super interesting, but what about the scores of people who cured themselves of all kinds of diseases while eating copious amounts of vitamin A and/or beta-carotene? Some of those restorative diets intentionally included massive amounts of things like carrot juice. You know this. You’ve undoubtedly seen and read about all kinds disease states that benefitted from it, including liver disease.
One man’s poison, as they say. There isn’t one cure for everyone. And maybe there’s rare cases where vitamin A and carotenoids are bad for some.
IMO, like the people feeling good on beef on water, these are just cases of extreme food sensitivity.
I’ll be very happy to be wrong and see a bunch of your readers start healing off a low-vitamin-a diet. Nothing would make me happier.
We’ll see.
I’ve heard of people curing themselves from virtually every disease with virtually every diet. You’re right about that.
I do think it’s probably more likely to be food sensitivities. But that still doesn’t answer what is causing all these food sensitivities. That’s the real disease, the root of which being much more important than the various palliatives that prevent symptoms from occurring.
It is only too common that most have a weak and faulty digestion, parasites, and a lack of enzymes and amino acids.
Food is contaminated, and doesn’t provide the nutrition it once had. They say the gut is our 2nd brain.
Gone through more of his book and the posts on raypeatforum, one striking thing to me is that he hasn’t even tested if vitamin A makes his eczema worse. After all this research and he just assumes it’s vitamin from foods rather than testing the isolated vitamin.
Another thing that would support that all of this is food intolerance, which I feel certain it is, is that he flares with coconut oil, and claims it liberates vitamin A from the tissues or something like that.
Okay.
Well then how come the poster on ray peat forum uses coconut oil exclusively.
Maybe they have different food intolerances, like pretty much everyone?
I mean look. He comes up with grand theory and then his solution is cut out like 99% of foods. He doesn’t even eat more than a tsp of olive oil a day. He’s on an extreme food intolerance diet, same as the beef and water eaters, same as the ray peat poster.
I agree with you, vitamin a villainy is an interesting theory and a lot of his research is facisnating, but this is a CLASSIC case of correlation does not equal causation.
He simply hasn’t even tested his own theory!
(Or he has and just doesn’t want to admit he was wrong.)
“But that still doesn’t answer what is causing all these food sensitivities. That’s the real disease,”
Exactly. Food sensitivity means that your immune system is mistakenly treating harmless things as pathogens, so the root of all this is a confused and overly aggressive immune system.
I’m surprised you don’t really seem to consider the microbiome in your discussions. I haven’t followed your work for that long so I’m not sure if you have in the past. But what has changed most in the last 40 years is our microbiome and we know that this is indicated in pretty much every disease. Modern foods, chemicals etc all affect the microbiome.
I have a low metabolism and tried to follow your and Dr Gs recommendations for the past year. Well my health got worse and worse. Now turns out I have a hidden fungal infection and high oxalates and have been feeding those all along by eating more sugar.
Now I’ve also been taking vitamin A and stopped after reading these books as I had gotten really sensitive to the sun. I freaked out about it for a while. But oxalates can have the same effect and I won’t know which one was the cause. But I’d like to say that the low vitamin A diet is also low in oxalates so who knows. I don’t think we can pin the rise of chronic disease on one thing but taking the microbiome out of the discussion misses a huge part of the puzzle.
Hear me out real quick. Before considering vitamin A, I was thinking the carnivore diet affected gut bugs, pathogens, and their metabolic waste production that could interact with our immune system. Also their gut diversity and gut integrity to where our immune systems are calming down, BUT our improvements come with the drawback of super sensitivities.
So what if on the opposite spectrum instead someone had a wide variety of foods that included good amounts of fermentable material, and this person also had good diversity as well, so their happy gut bugs and happy gut lining (you know..vitamins and the short chain fatty acids that supposedly tightens the junctions, promotes healthy cell death etc..) allow us to feel good with a variety of food without shitty reactions.
So with eating just beef we somehow create a beneficial immune response by eliminating most fermentation besides mucous with the drawback of not being able to handle other foods anymore and perhaps unfavorably lowering populations and species of gut organisms.
As I’ve stated, and a couple others in this comment section, could it be possible that these positive changes in these people eating nothing but beef and salt have more to do with the microbiome and fermentation or lack thereof and its interaction with our immune system and everything else in between. Zonulin and permeability, “endotoxins” production, etc… I have no idea but I have been thinking that gut diversity and integrity is what makes someone able to handle more foods and be more resilient to stressors of all kinds including pathogens and food substances.
But now, taking vitamin A into consideration I feel clueless again. I realize there are many other factors and everything Ive discussed is very generalized. I apologize for being confusing but I really wanted to throw these ideas around. It’s important we consider everything seeing how its all still a mystery.
There are people that claim to have increased their tolerance and even preference to larger quantities and varieties of fermentable material in their diet (everything like resistant starch, gos fos etc) and experience benefits including subsiding of negative food reactions.
Who knows like I always say…The low vitamin A diet having similar positives results as the carnivore diet just makes me wonder is is vitamin A, a change in the gut in some way, or something else? Thanks for reading.
Yes, while we must have iron, too much is toxic, especially when the U.S. government has mandated iron fortification since 1941…. then other countries followed.
Really interesting. Thanks for sharing! we don’t intentionally consume vitamin A other than in raw milk and dairy, and we never use sunscreen. We also have never been great at eating lots of vegetables. ironically, the more I read, the more it seems that my good health and that of my kids is basically due to ignoring ALL dietary advice… Even that which seems sound (mainly out of laziness or budget factors..why would I buy salad when it provides so little calories?!)
Okay, I am bummed. We drink raw goat’s milk (from our own goats) and goats convert all carotenes to vitamin A. Right now I have four gallons in the refrigerator. And three pounds of cheese.
Yeah but at least those are not fortified with vitamin A. I think that may be why so many report miraculous health improvements when they switch from fortified dairy to raw milk.
Very interesting idea!
So does this apply to both retinol and beta carotene? Does the liver actually store both, or just retinol?
The link you gave for hypervitaminosis A mentioned the following:
“High intake of provitamin carotenoids (such as beta carotene) from vegetables and fruits does not cause hypervitaminosis A, as conversion from carotenoids to the active form of vitamin A is regulated by the body to maintain an optimum level of the vitamin. Carotenoids themselves cannot produce toxicity.”
If I’m understanding correctly, it seems to me that it would just be retinol based vitamin A food and supplements, so certain veggies and supplements with just beta carotene would be ok to eat.
Would love to hear your thoughts. I have a family member with autoimmune issues who can’t seem to make any headway even with multiple doctor treatments.
Great article, and always looking forward to the next post! Thanks Matt!
Grant seems very certain that carotenes are problematic, and that they are just a double-bonded retinol molecule.
I do suspect that many strict vegans who consume no retinol, may be getting such great results because of it, and/or because they convert carotenes to retinol very poorly. But that’s just a guess.
It is my understanding that synthetic retinol is different from animal derived. Is this correct and does Grant address this in his book?
Yes. Grant believes all forms of vitamin A are the same in the end, but the worst form is the kind typically used for fortifying foods and in sunscreens, vitamin A palmitate. Being blended with palmitate just makes it more absorbable I believe?
And of course the more harmful downstream metabolites of vitamin A – retinoic acid and transretinoic acid, such as the types used in acne medication.
It was late 2012 when I came to believe that my symptoms (PseudoTumor Cerebri or Idiopathic Intracranial Hypertension), ascites, peeling and severely dry skin, eyes, hair, were a direct result of a toxic load of vitamin A. I stopped eating foods with it, and had found that the syntethtic water-soluble form was the worst!
I ignored warnings to avoid PUFA and switched to using Earth Balance, which was all I could find locally that did not add Vitamin A Palmitate. I ate non-oily white fish, ?Sari? brand non-fortified nutritional yeast flakes, Quaker Life cereal – the only one I could find in my small town, that did not contain vitamin A, and the classic version non-fortified rice milk. I ate a lot of white rice too, and made my own breads with organic flour.
I ate sugar! I made cookies all the time. I never purposely reduced calories, but lost 19 pounds over the course of a few months – most notably the ascites that had plagued me for years. My face and especially my eyes lost the swelling and looked normal again. No more proptosis! My migraines resolved.
Until January of this year.
At that point, I looked back at my 6 years of avoiding retinol and suddenly felt very uncertain about what I had done. Although I didn’t have as much saved to my iCloud folder named Hypervitaminosis as Grant did to his computer, it was pretty respectable in content. And I deleted it all! I was THAT worried over my decision to remove this vitamin from my life. I started eating dairy again, and buying cereal without looking at the fortification list.
I found Grant’s books in March of this year. By that time, I was suffering from migraines, edema, vision changes, extreme fatigue, etc. Everything was building up again. I was unable to read more than half of his work, due to my symptoms. I wanted to write to him, but was too tired.
When was it you sent out the first email about this upcoming Vitamin A post? Was that June or July? Talk about synchronicity! I’m seeing it from many different sources now. Someone on a PseudoTumor Cerebri forum believed that all migraines could be traced back to retinol – she wrote about that years ago!
I am back to removing the retinol foods from my diet (I never removed beta carotene sources, because my 23andme report says I am a poor converter anyway). My kidneys felt better almost overnight. My head gradually feels a bit better everyday, the intense pressure subsiding). In fact, everything starts to feel more normal. My skin looks much better.
I will probably always doubt myself, because I am not a researcher, medical professional or scientist. But like the Anderson family you mentioned, I did not have health issues when I removed it, as far as what standard twice-yearly blood work shows. My PCP and insurance will not agree to anything but CBC and metabolic panels.
Fortification of foods in 3rd world countries may or may not help the children. But it certainly looks dangerous to fortify foods in developed nations. I can’t even eat a Brown Sugar & Cinnamon PopTart!
Yeah, it might be personal conversion rate. Another possibility is that the presence of fat with carotenoids alters their absorption and conversion. Here’s one abstract that says “higher liver vitamin A concentrations were found in those [animals] that ingested higher fat levels.” It suggests that mild amounts of fat are enough to do this.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12002680
If this is true, and the vitamin A hypothesis is correct, then that could explain why people report success on both very high-fat diets and very low fat diets.
In certain high fat (low carb) diets, the overall vitamin A content (as retinoids) is low enough for the body to store, if you’re eating mostly muscle meat. In very low fat diets, the carotenoids are poorly absorbed or converted into retinol, and since they’re water soluble, can be easily eliminated — if they’re absorbed at all.
In the middle ground, the highly palatable Western diet, we combine carotenoids with fat (salads with any oil, sauteed veggies, pizza with tomato sauce, etc). If fat does indeed increase carotene conversion to retinol, suddenly these colorful plants could be the highest source of retinol of any diet.
But that one study is hardly conclusive. Still, at first blush it appears to fit the facts, to me.
Interesting thoughts for sure Zogby. Thanks for that.
Matt,
Have you heard of Mikhaila Peterson’s all beef diet? I wonder if her low Vitamin A intake may be how she was able to cure herself of her autoimmune condition? Her father Jordan Peterson was able to cure his health problems as well by eating nothing but beef. I can’t help but wonder if there extremely low intake of Vitamin A is at least part of the reason for their health improvements.
Yes, and I think it’s more than part of the reason. The Peterson’s publicity of their diet definitely had an impact on my willingness to believe in the vitamin A theory. It certainly matches up perfectly.
Good stuff, thanks Matt and Zogby. Nice to read this comment section. Liked the post too. Keep up the good work. I started a Zero A diet almost one month ago and feel a handful of very good results. Less inflammation, better rest, more energy, higher concentration, less finger arthritis, better vision. What’s not to like? I’ve been scrubbing PubMed abstracts for clues. They’re there, just a lot of work sorting them out. Good luck, Johnny Zero
Hi pizzaholic. I posted a comment in Grant’s post about breast cancer some weeks back with a link to a study that showed benefits in changing ones diet from sad to whole fooda with plenty of fresh fruit and veg. The contestants was getting their betacaroten from whole foods not supplements and their blood were tested for betacarotene as well. The higher the value of the blood sample, the better for the long term survival rate it seemed.
I believe it is important to differ between fortified food amd supplements, and real food. Question is whether the betacarotene itself had a protective role, or if the contestants just stopped eating other vit A sources thus actually getting their levels down despite the betacarotene, or if plant foods may have other beneficial components that is also protective?
I personally believe this vit A thing being very interesting. But just looking at one side of the spectrum is a bit unfair. As there clearly are well done studies proving the opposite. But again, with whole foods and not supplememts.
Maybe someone needs to dig in to those studies as well so there is something to talk about :)
If fruit and veg were equally poisenous to synthetic retinol, all vegans and fruitarians and health nuts would have been dead by now from all their kale and carrot juicing.
Nearly all vegans, fruitarians, and health nuts have their health completely deteriorate in a decade or less, so not sure I’m on board with “it must be okay cuz fruitarians” idea.
And yes, using whole foods with hundreds of compounds, all with unique effects on the human body, make it difficult to glean anything useful pertaining to vitamin A.
True that! Veganism et al is not healthy in the long run for most people. But is that due to betacaroten or any of several other reasons?
If the theory of vitA-autoimmune disease connection proves to have validity, what are the chanses of developing autoimmune disease from going (plant based) vegan?
Sure would take longer time at least.
And can betacarotene turn into retinoic acid? As in, is the body capable of converting betacarotene – retinol – retinoic acid?
Also still curious whether pasteurization actually creates retinoic acid in milk products or if it takes higher temperatures (refering to the 1920 rat study where the rat chow contained strerile caseine)
Interesting read! My husband is 39 and out of no where in January started having daily partial seizures in his right frontal lobe. Some of them turn into complex seizures and he passes out. Most of them occur around lunch time.
No family history and no other symptoms. Nothing on his MRI other than some white spots typical of a smoker. Scrambling to find an answer. Any insight or good reads on something that may be connected?
Grant mentions a couple of cases of epilepsy being overturned on a vitamin A depletion diet. Seems to help my girlfriend with hers a lot.
Have you talked to your pal Dr. Garrett Smith about this? I know he used to recommend Vit A to many (most?) of his patients. He said it helped get calcium out of the tissue. Would be curious about his thoughts.
I haven’t. I know he feels strongly about vitamin A being useful in specific circumstances. He might not feel so strongly about it after reading Grant’s books.
Hello Matt,
I am fairly familiar now with Grant Genereux and his theory of vitamin A. I was hoping you could explain to me why the problems with vitamin A are not simply an imbalance of vitamin D?
I was thinking a deficiency of vitamin D would exacerbate any problems caused by consuming vitamin A, and with the raising of vitamin D levels, this would, in a way, raise the “threshold” of vitamin A that would cause problems. My thoughts were that a very vitamin D deficient person that reacts negatively to vitamin A, were to then become vitamin D replete, they would then find themselves able to consume much higher levels of vitamin A than before without issue.
I have asked this question to Grant, but he said he had not researched vitamin D much, in relation to his research, but admitted it could be factor.
A balance of all the fat solubles I believe is a sensible approach, rather than drastically limiting any of them, or an excess of any of them. I wondered if you could explain any of the flaws in this theory?
Thanks.
I think vitamin D is definitely an opposing factor to vitamin A. It helps, but it’s probably just part of the story. Just like good liver function and high metabolism helps but is just part of the story. The fact that vitamin A isn’t a nutrient at all and that animals and humans can do just fine for long periods of time with none, is enough to take a deeper look into its complete set of functions and what happens when too much is consumed over the long-term.
Thanks for the reply.
Vitamin D seems to be a hugely regulatory hormone in the body, and there are thousands of studies that back this up.
From Ray Peat’s email exchanges alone, he has said that adequate levels of vitamin D benefits: testosterone/cortisol balance, protective hormones pregnenolone and progesterone, using calcium, mineral metabolism, lower PTH, bone metabolism, immunity problems, improving T4-T3 conversion, lowering LH, etc.
With this information is it so far fetched to believe that the inability to consume vitamin A could be linked to a vitamin D deficiency?
In my experience Grant Genereux and the vitamin A movement seem to think of vitamin D as “just a vitamin A antagonist” or as you put it, “an opposing factor” and don’t seem to accept the countless studies, as well as anecdotal evidence recovering from ailments simply from recovering from a vitamin D deficiency. It almost seems like this movement is a step backwards from what we can understand from studies and health.
I completely agree that I think excess vitamin A could be a problem, but I think the vitamin A movement is completely ignoring a huge part of the health movement.
I think that it is also important to realize that Vitamin D and A are not isolated nutrients either. For example Magnesium is very important for utilizing Vit D. Vitamin A has a key role in helping make ceruloplasmin in the liver so that one may have good copper levels. Many people are either copper toxic or have an absolute copper deficiency. I am guessing that this Vit A problem may be affecting people’s copper, for good or for bad depending where you find yourself in a deficiency or excess. Again taking just Vit A is not a good idea. Minerals and vitamins all work together for a successful end result, which is why again, Dr. Kelley was a pure genius.
Magnesium needed for vitamin D is under appreciated still I think. I couldn’t get my levels up at all even with supplementing until I got my magnesium consumption optimal.
The doctor who really fueled the craze over Vit D has received hundreds of thousands of dollars from supplement companies and tanning bed associations.
According to a recent article, “rigorous clinical trials have failed to confirm the benefits suggested by early, preliminary studies. A string of trials found no evidence that vitamin D reduces the risk of cancer, heart disease or falls in the elderly. And most scientists say there isn’t enough evidence to know if vitamin D can prevent chronic diseases that aren’t related to bones.”
D probably has a certain role, but it may not be what we’ve been led to believe.
https://khn.org/news/how-michael-holick-sold-america-on-vitamin-d-and-profited/
This is AMA propaganda. Functional medicine has published hundreds of opposing opinion research pieces. Chose, old paradigm that cannot prevent, treat or back up chronic diseases, only symptoms, or new paradigm doing the above daily.
Ummm, I don’t know if it’s AMA propaganda or not that Holick was paid hundreds of thousands of dollars, but he does admit to receiving all that money.
I haven’t reviewed the studies referred to, so I don’t know how well they were done, but apparently they weren’t population studies. They were controlled clinical trials.
I’m highly skeptical of people who say that they practice “functional medicine”. I’ve known a couple who were good but a lot more who were virtually incompetent but who wanted to cash in on the current craze. And when I say “cash in”, I mean that literally. They oftentimes don’t take insurance and charge very high fees.
Well, hell. Another comment vanished into the void.
RIP Comment #175974…
My experience with Functional/Integrative Medicine practitioners has been as you described, turtlegurl.
Yeah, I thought functional medicine was a total farce. Never heard anything positive about it. Just absurd amounts of supplements and only getting tangible positive results on rare occasion, probably mostly by accident.
I don’t really think they’re ignoring it at all, nor am I. But the thought that vitamin A is only causing problems because of low vitamin D is pretty outlandish. Those WAPF’ers guzzling cod liver oil were getting a shitload of vitamin D. It didn’t save them. So were the lab animals on fish liver oil that Grant mentions–all of them developing such severe osteoporosis that the researchers kept breaking bones in the animals when handling them.
There isn’t enough vitamin D in cod liver oil to balance the vitamin A. WAPF recommends supplementing vitamin D along with cod liver oil.
This makes a lot of sense. High dosing, I mean really high dosing, auto immune patients with vitamin D has been known to alleviate, reverse, or all together cure their disease. It’s relationship and effects to vitamin A lines up perfectly.
I agree Rappeatclips. Mineral and vitamin interrelationships are a complex dance of synergist and antagonist actions. Anything in excess and deficiency can push a person to an imbalance in the autonomic nervous system and that creates symptoms of disease and disorders.
Supplementation with Vitamin D/K2 worsened my symptoms. Besides polymorphisms involving beta carotene conversion, I also have VDR mutations. (VDR Taq? if memory serves)
For myself, supplementation with any fat-soluble vitamin is worrisome and makes matters worse.
JCC,
Very interesting. I’ve been wondering about all fat soluble vitamins and then I found this article: http://extension.colostate.edu/topic-areas/nutrition-food-safety-health/fat-soluble-vitamins-a-d-e-and-k-9-315/
It says that all fat soluble vitamins are needed in only small amounts and do not require supplementation. Any excesses are stored in the liver. And, all can be toxic at high doses.
I think excess Vitamin A is probably a real problem. But it is likely that excess D, K, and E are also problems. What if our liver is full of toxins from pesticides, chemicals in the home, etc., plus stored vitamins, and then we consume just a little A, D, K, or E that our body does not immediately use? Do we begin showing symptoms of toxicity?
The fact that beta carotene is stored in our fat tissue until needed by our livers is concerning too. Conventional medicine says that if you consume excessive amounts of beta carotene, your skin will turn orange but that the condition is “harmless” and will resolve once consumption is reduced. I’m not buying that. I think it’s possible that the reason you turn orange is because your body doesn’t have enough time to create more fat cells. What if you consume just a little bit extra day after day? Wouldn’t your body continue to add more fat to be able to store it?
Diet gurus love to say things like Americans are over fed and under nourished. Maybe not. Maybe we’re all just over nourished. Maybe that’s why some highly restrictive diets produce results.
what about blood tests(or saliva, or urine …)to diagnose the repletion of retinoic acid in the system(victms)?
Yeah that would be great. I know little about what’s available in terms of testing.
What about Gerson Therapy?
Using carrot juice for 80 years now, to heal cancer and other degenerative deseases?
I thought Gerson therapy was total bullshit?
If it does work, it probably works in a similar manner to fasting–just completely catabolizing the body consuming nothing but juices.
I used to have severe menorrhagia (like 10x the average). Gynocologist couldn’t help me. I read that vit A deficiency could be the cause and 5 years ago I started taking 10,000 IU (suppliment sourced from fish oil) per day. My next period was aproximately half the volume. If anyone else has dealt with this you will know how life-changing that difference was. And that is not all, my periods became regular, 29 day cycles instead of 32-36 days. PMS symptoms / cramping reduced. And my acne greatly improved. Several times since I have tested by stopping taking it for a month and always all the old symptoms came back.
Gerson therapy? I wonder if that was what a good friend of mine was doing back in the 80s. Until I developed vitamin A poisoning, it didn’t occur to me, but now it makes sense. The main component of his diet was fresh vegetable juice. I think I even helped him make it sometimes. It had carrots, spinach, and a lot of other greens in it. (He was not a vegan or vegetarian, just thought the juice was healthful.) His skin was very yellow. He was a non-smoker, but he got lung cancer and died a few years later.
The original Gerson therapy also included calf liver juice!
Gerson would be hard to tease out because it covers so much area. For example, didn’t Gerson always use coffee enemas? Cleaning out the gut would certainly help a cancer patient…
Matt, your a disappointment. Have you read any of Ray Peat’s articles?
https://www.raypeat.com
whos paying you to write this nonsense?
I’ve read all of them numb nuts. People have come to me for years drowning themselves in milk and orange juice and pounding coffee and wondering why their metabolisms were so low.
Peatards come to Dr. Smith all the time with a shitload of calcium suppressing their metabolic rate as well.
Ray Peat’s a great theorizer, and a well-studied guy. I have benefited from studying his work. I wish it alone led to the promised land. But they are just fragments of ideas woven together into a compelling story, as vulnerable to error as anyone else’s interpretation of the infinite database of research available.
Grant and I both are handsomely paid by the beef industry. Beef, it’s what’s for dinner!
Sorry, just can’t buy this one. The craze for low fat and the taboo against eating offal mean that true vitamin A is generally in short supply. You are going down a dead end with this one.
Thanks for the advice oh wise one!
Vitamin A in short supply? Have you ever tracked your vitamin A intake on ANY diet and found yourself coming in under the RDA? Me neither. It’s one of the most abundant “nutrients” in the food chain.
Also, you’re aware that popular multivitamins, like GNC’s line of Mega Men and Ultra Mega contain 5,000 IU of vitamin A, and that more than 150 million Americans are taking similar vitamins daily?
All it takes is overdoing it for an extended period of time, and then boom. Your liver is full. And it never gets unfull on a regular diet, because nearly all diets contain a shitload of vitamin A.
We also get far fewer infections and come into contact with few pathogens in modern, sterile life. This is key because the liver dumps vitamin A in response to infections. Grant has a whole section in his book about this as a potential explanation for the Hygiene Hypothesis.
I drank at least a gallon of orange juice and two gallons of fortified milk, often poured over 3-4 servings of Just Right or Total cereal (extra vitamin A added) every single week growing up. TONS of tomatoes via ketchup, pasta sauce, pizza, etc. Eggs were another favorite food of mine. AND I used tons of sunscreen and prescription acne medication.
So no. NO CHANCE anyone could be getting too much vitamin A because we don’t eat much liver in current society. I’m going to give this search up immediately Thomas! No need to look into it further! Damn, where were you BEFORE I posted this nonsense?!
Matt, the majority of pro vitamin A, fully formed, is either synthetic or isolated added to foods. Unless a person is eating fortified cereals, and certain fortified milk products where is the vitamin A coming from? Many people don’t eat even carotenes in their diet and the conversion is poor if sub clinical hypothyroidism is as prevalent as thought. The thyroid and the liver have to be working well to convert it.
Ah yes, the “who’s paying you?” argument. Well the jig is up Matt, might as well confess.
@Thomas: there is no “taboo” against eating offal. Nobody eats it because it tastes like shit. Even the “carnivores” take liver in capsules or swallow bits of frozen liver to avoid tasting it, or the ones who pretend to like it like Sv3rige eat a pat of butter with every bite.
@Matt: that book I keep yapping about, “The epidemic of absence”, mentioned the fact that parents of autistic kids report that every-time the kids get sick with the flu, they’re symptoms are massively reduced to almost the point of being “normal” kids, but they come back again as soon as the flu is gone, so that’s a very interesting point that matches what you said about infections depleting vit A. Hmmmmmmmmm
I lol’d the other day watching Frank Tufano swallow liver with big gulps of water like he was swallowing pills.
lol yeah, you can tell it’s your “natural diet” when you don’t want the food to touch your tongue on the way down.
Re: Skeptic’s citation about autistic kids with big symptom reduction while having the flu–suggestive of something that improves during infection, but what?
It reminds me of my father’s experience with another condition altogether.
About a year before his death from dementia, my dad had one of his too-frequent kidney infections (subsequent to bladder cancer treatment) and initially became unresponsive, as if he’d had a stroke. But while in the ER he suddenly started speaking and interacting and reading signs on the wall for the first time in the three years or so that his dementia had gotten much worse. This reprieve faded rapidly with time and/or the effects of another round of ciprofloxacin. No medical people had any explanation for (or interest in) his brief return to higher functioning.
As in most tough, interesting problems, I suspect there are many factors interacting that are hard to identify. If it were just vitamin A, it would be easier to sort out its impact.
I will look at the book you mentioned, Skeptic.
@Sue: While autism is a complex disorder and there’s a spectrum, auto-immune is believed to play a part. So when the immune system is busy fighting actual pathogens, like the flu, it’s distracted away from attacking the children’s brains, hence the brief reprieve.
Dementia is similarly a complex disorder with many possible causes, one of which is auto-immune, so it’s very possible that the same effect that the kids experienced happened to your dad.
The book is really fascinating, especially since I had not heard of the Hygiene Theory before reading it.
“Grant and I both are handsomely paid by the beef industry. Beef, it’s what’s for dinner!”
I knew it!! INDUSTRY SHILL!!
haha – Life would be tough, without you, turtlegurl, Magic Maker, Skeptic, and Razwell. This blog is my refuge in a sea of absurdity!
Back at ya, Carl ;)
Now, put down the bottle of CLO, and nobody gets hurt. It’s good you reached out for help here on The D. Why don’t you join me at the next Blogaholics Anonymous meeting? Saturday 10 a.m. Location TBD by further blogging.
ditto Carl :D
you had me at numb nuts :-)
Matt – have you had a hair test? Show us?! You’ve talked about struggling with weight issues and trying to find the metabolic wonderland… I wonder if your calcium is higher than phosphorous and potassium, relative to the ratios etc.
Its not just eating lots of calcium rich foods that increase calcium, but being inactive, and eating a lot of carbs can do it too. They say the carb to protein ratio heavily influences the calcium to magnesium ratio. Proteins are considered metabolically stimulating, carbs retain calcium and sodium to increase the breathing drive..
N=1, but mine for sure isn’t – and i’ve always been super lean. I’m considered a “Fast oxidiser” and i eat a lot of food too.
No hair test, sorry.
Why not?! Your best mate Doc. Gareth is a hair test guru! Its only $100 bucks or something. Stop being a cheapskate man!
Mark,
Are hair tests even reliable or useful?
Over the years, I’ve read mostly negative reviews and inconclusive outcomes on the topic.
Here’s one of many:
“Why hair analysis does not work:
– Levels of minerals in the hair do not correlate with levels in the body.
– Laboratory techniques are inconsistent ? the same hair analyzed in different labs shows different readings.
– There are no known “normal” ranges for minerals in hair, so the numbers given by the lab are nonsensical.
– Hair analysis is affected by color, texture, age, exposure to the environment, and a host of other factors, rendering results invalid.
– Most importantly, hair analysis has never been proven to help diagnose or treat any disease.”
The only people I’ve personally seen promote such testing are “alternative” practitioners who also sell supplements. While that doesn’t automatically disqualify those folks, I do see that as a conflict of interest.
More important, I believe, is the fact that the “science” and usefulness of such tests have been debated for at least 20 years that I’m aware. To me, it would seem like this shouldn’t be the case, if hair testing is supported by actual “science.”
As for Matt, given his 13+ years of researching health/nutrition – and, considering he’s friends with Dr. Garrett and has also communicated with numerous other high-profile people in the industry – I’d imagine he would have had his hair tested long ago, had he seen any value in doing so. But, that’s just a guess on my part.
Anyway, if you have any reliable resources that show convincing benefits of hair testing, I’d enjoy reading the material.
Personally, I had two hair tests performed, years ago. I had them done out of desperation (a common theme about many things in “alternative” medicine), and, as I previously alluded, I was put on a long list of expensive supplements that the practitioner sold. Had the supplements been recommended for a specific period of time, that would have made more sense. However, the doctor wanted me to be on the “forever” plan. I followed the plan for over a year. I felt no difference while taking them. Likewise, I didn’t notice any changes, after I stopped taking them.
Just kind of thinking about this. If Vitamin A is fat soluble and you are “squeezing” fat out of the cell when using energy, could it be that you are “squeezing” toxin into the bloodstream? Part of a free fatty acid toxic A cocktail?
There are lots of things, like infections and stress, that cause an outpouring of retinoic acid into the bloodstream, and it definitely can cause all manner of malaise.
Indeed, that’s true. Here’s one, hot off the press.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30233492
Whole milk only has vitamin D added. So the low fat diet is the problem. So why should we avoid full fat dairy and why do people act like all milk has the vitamin A added? You can also find a few health food store brands with no vitamins added, like Kolona Farms, I think. But I don’t care to spend $8 per gallon unless it’s raw milk.
This post should be titled, ?you thought I had some credibility left? Nah, watch this!
Just stop, dude. You’re gonna spin your wheels this way for years and never get anywhere. Maybe it’s time to accept that you simply won’t be able to accomplish the goal you set out to accomplish. Nothing wrong with that.
Most people I know who are truly healthy and stable individuals eat conventionally balanced diets, exercise a little, have solid genes. What about the rest? I don’t know. No one knows. And you’re not gonna figure it out by reading bullshit books about vitamin A being a ?poison. Why don’t you enjoy whatever health you can muster by reasonable methods and get on with it?
I think it’s pretty interesting that vitamin A isn’t actually an essential nutrient though, don’t you? I mean, regardless of what anyone chooses to do with that information, or how strangely they decide to eat as a result, or whether or not doing so helps them alleviate an illness or two, you can’t just toss that aside.
“Why don’t you enjoy whatever health you can muster by reasonable methods and get on with it?”
I was doing exactly that. Then I developed near life-threatening asthma. Re-commence looking into weird theories!
Do you still love in Florida? Is there any connection with the airborne cyanobacteria going on?
No. I’m in Santa Fe. My asthma was significantly worse here due to dry air and altitude, until I changed my eating around. I first stared a vitamin A free diet in Florida, and it mostly cleared up there before I left.
Why are you suddenly so certain that vitamin A isn’t a nutrient? You’re trusting the fringe assessment of one guy on the internet, whose e-book is not even particularly well-written, well-organized, or convincing. After reading his book this evening, my overwhelming impression is that basically none of his arguments are sound or convincing. His entire thesis rests on assumptions that are never adequately explained or defended, such as assumptions about how a deficiency disease “should” manifest.
Anecdotal evidence is useless, of course, but for what it’s worth the only thing that reliably improves my upper-arm keratosis pilaris is large doses of vitamin A. When I take vitamin A in the range of 10k to 30k IU daily, I experience massive improvements in skin quality, sleep, mood, etc.
And yes, if I overdo it, I get some symptoms of toxicity. It takes well in excess of 50,000 IU daily for at least a week to get to that point. That’s considerably more than any human being on earth could possibly be exposed to from fortified foods, sunscreens, or multivitamins. (Last I checked the amount of vitamin A in milk, one of the most heavily vitamin-A-fortified foods, was on the order of 500 IU per cup.)
When I look around at the unhealthy people in my environment and my family, I overwhelmingly observe the following patterns:
–Long history of failing to prioritize sleep
–Some level of abuse of alcohol, tobacco, marijuana, or prescription medications
–Regular consumption of or exposure to fast food, convenience food, and assorted junk like diet sodas and environmental endocrine disruptors
–Regular consumption of wheat and vegetable oils (yes, I’m old-fashioned like that)
–Failure to adopt any common-sense, regular exercise regime
–Poor body composition as a result of some combination of the above
–Unhealthy coping mechanisms like Netflix binging, junk food binging, alcohol binging, etc.
–Lack of awareness of genetic idiosyncrasies that affect nutrient needs
–Lack of awareness of nutrient needs in general, and failure to provide for those needs, even in people with a history of attempting fringe health maneuvers
–Aversion to any kind of regular monitoring of biomarkers or biofeedback
–Poor body awareness in general
I’ll emphasize that I observe these patterns even in people with chronic illnesses who have tried multiple special diets. The broad theme is that I see people either paying no attention to their health at all, OR focusing excessively on the wrong things while ignoring vast portions of what I consider to be basic and foundational.
After reading this post, I suspect that you are in the latter category. You are eager to take action on a risky and tenuously-supported theory, which makes me wonder whether there are harmful aspects of your nutritional status, your lifestyle, or even your psychology that you’ve simply become blind to. Are you absolutely certain there’s nothing in the list above that you don’t have completely, totally, 100% nailed to the wall?
You seem to attract followers who will eagerly dive down these rabbit holes with you. Even you would probably admit that you have a tendency to swing to radical extremes in your pursuit of solutions. Is any of this healthy for anyone involved? Is it possible you have a psychological attachment to weird health maneuvers?
I’m writing this because I really think you need this perspective in your comments. If all of your followers have optimized literally every single variable that a more conventional approach would suggest, then perhaps it’s justified to try weird things like this. But I highly doubt that’s the case. Because I’ve never met anyone who wasn’t blind to some significantly harmful element of their daily exposures or habits.
I don’t find Grant’s books to be that convincing that vitamin A isn’t a nutrient. He goes on plenty of silly tangents that are quite weak, such as the cod fishery closure in Canada that he seems obsessed with (but that doesn’t even make that much sense). I find all the people not consuming any, including Grant and his gerbils, who have no ill effect from doing so. That’s much more compelling.
I had terrible ketatosis pilaris on the triceps my entire childhood when I was having huge doses of supplemental vitamin A in many forms. Completely clear eating no vitamin A. I will bet you that you won’t have any issue with it on a zero vitamin A diet.
Those are great observations. Changes in any of those categories don’t give me relief from asthma though. Only changing my diet does.
Matt – on the asthma tangent, can you give a quick summary of which dietary changes have helped the most? I hear the reduction of vit A but are there other things that have made a significant difference?
Matt, I remember reading about Buteyko years ago on your blog from a commenter but have only recently given it some real time and effort as my oldest has asthma that doesn’t respond to diet. Did you ever look into it or try it? Chronic hyperventilation seems to be a promising net for many of these symptoms as well.
Yeah, I try it the best I can, but I’m not disciplined enough to really give it any serious effort. My minor efforts have yielded zero results.
Matt,
How long did it take your KP to disappear? I’ve been on the low-to-no Vitamin A diet for almost three months now, and it hasn’t improved. It’s gotten worse around my knees, elbows, and upper thighs. I also hoped some painful acne that started around three years would decrease but it’s still pretty bad. Based on what I read in Grant’s books, I’m wondering if my supplementing with Vitamin A drops, cod liver oil, liver, etc. (because I thought it would eliminate skin issues) somehow damaged the sebaceous glands.
I didn’t have much KP to begin with. That was something I suffered from much more in childhood. My diet back then was about 50% low fat milk, orange juice, and fortified breakfast cereal, lol.
Iggy Pop — I gotta say, your writing is surprisingly coherent for someone with such a long history of heavy drug & alcohol abuse, not to mention the generally wild punk rock sorta lifestyle you’ve lived for lo these many years ;)
Are you willing to share your secret for being able to read an almost 400-page book in an evening? I’ve always wanted to be one of those people.
Re: your positive response to high doses of A, maybe your liver is able to produce higher amounts of RBP than the average person, and maybe that makes a difference? I haven’t read the whole book, so I’m just throwing that out there. What are your thoughts?
lol XD
@Iggy: Yeah maybe someone who thinks wheat is a magically bad food shouldn’t be criticizing others for “fringe health beliefs”. Also, the “eager followers” at this blog are not just blind followers who jump down any rabbit hole Matt mentions. That’s insulting to say the least and not true at all. We contradict him all the time. For example, I’ve always said that Ray Peat is an over-hyped crazy person. I think what’s really going on here is that you’re just upset at someone suggesting something you consume a lot of may be harmful, just like all the Peatards, WAPF people and Carnivores in the comments.
Actually Skeptic, we are all dumb. Lyle McDonald is here now. He makes everyone dumber.
I also feel great from eating high quality liver sometimes. Where are you getting your 10-30k IUs of A per day? I haven’t tried pure retinol. High quality liver like foie gras makes me feel good so quickly that I wonder if it is the special mix or type of B vitamins it has.
I’m bummed bc I take lots of cod liver oil and believe it helps me with certain things. Any suggestions for alternatives to CLO?
Helps with what?
It could be the vitamin D or omega 3. You might try taking those separately without the vitamin A to see if you still get the benefits you think you’re getting from CLO.
How to get the omega 3? I can only eat so much flax and chia.
I’m not a big fan of omega 3 in general, but most use high quality fish oils if they are looking to supplement their diets.
Eat fish?
Wild caught fish. Sure beats expensive supplements and is a helluva lot tastier than rancid flax.
Chaya, you might find this very interesting. Patricia and Ed Kane write about the 4:1 ratio in great detail. It will probably surprise you.
http://www.longevity-and-antiaging-secrets.com/support-files/bodybio.pdf
Just remember that this is a theory and it might not be true at all about A in foods so no need to ditch the cod oil. If you take it look into the fermented cod oil because others are fortified with isolated A and D which is more of an issue in my view…Small amounts are best. People got into problems taking large amounts over long periods, not a great idea. I question the fear of any omega 3 by Peat, also.
I eat a ton of sweet potatoes and carrots with no other sources of vitamin A – I have no idea if I’m a good or poor converter of beta carotene into A. I wonder if that could be an issue? I wonder if the body would convert less in response to excesses in the system?
No idea JD.
JD, one needs good levels of zinc to be able to convert betacarotene to retinol.
Very interesting stuff thank you. Doesn’t red light help deplete the body of vitamin a?
Ask Ari? My copy of his book is in the mail. Not sure if he covers that or not.
I’m considering there may be some validity to this, for me. Mid-November I started eating a very low fat diet, and was using quite a lot of skim milk, which has Vit. A added to it. I was also trying to eat 3 or 4 oz. of liver a couple of times a month. I got eczema on the back of my hands, kept getting worse. (There were nights it took hours to get to sleep because I was obsessed with picking off the flakes that just kept coming back.) Then there were small psoriasis patches on my lower legs. Legs itching, so I was scratching, and legs bleeding from scratching. Hands are cleared up now, legs getting better (sunshine for my legs helping a lot). About four months ago I quit the skim milk, went back to whole milk (I don’t use much of that). Haven’t had liver for awhile. Several years ago I got on the fermented cod liver oil wagon, probably for a year, but haven’t had any for at least five years. No Vit. A supplements. I have never had skin problems this bad (I’m 71) and it dragged on for about five months. For me it makes sense that given that it accumulates in the liver, the recent extra amount in the skim milk could have been too much for me. And there are likely other contributing factors I’m not aware of.
Your experience definitely jives with the theory Meighen. Age is a huge factor as well. As Grant says, most people probably developed problems at some point in life due to vitamin A for centuries, but it probably didn’t take place until 80+ years of age, in part because of the liver’s decreasing size and lowered activity with aging.
Dammit, man. I’ve been slathering prescription strength retin-a on my neck and face for 4 years now trying to get rid of wrinkles and such. I took a nine month break while pregnant and the psoriasis on my ankle disappeared. Then it came back with a vengeance on both elbows, a knee, and my other ankle after the baby was born. I assumed pregnancy hormones had put it into remission; not coincidentally, I also resumed my retin-a regimen shortly after delivering. I should also say that I didn’t have psoriasis until sometime after I started the retin-a. I feel like a fool. A FOOL! I’m ditching the stuff starting tonight and we shall see what happens. Thanks for the article, Matt.
I should also add that the psoriasis didn’t just vanish over night while pregnant. It slowly improved over the nine months until right before I had the baby when it completely resolved. If there’s any validity to Grant’s theory, this makes sense that the retinoid took several months to get out of my system.
Did it work for wrinkles though? it is a standard of anti-aging care, after all;-)
Retin-A — for gawd’s sake, that 1,000% synthetic — has nothing to do with natural vitamin A found in one’s diet, and thus nothing to do with this already invalidated hypothesis thrown out by Mister Marketeer.
Let us know if it clears up on a reduced vitamin A diet (and stopping the Retin-A of course). Thanks for sharing Texanne.
And another piece of the puzzle slides into place…I’ve been seeing a ton of histamine intolerance in my practice in the past few years. This Vitamin A piece sent me looking for a connection. Sure as shit, A stimulates degranulation of Mast cells, and Vitamins E & D help with the production of DAO (Diamine Oxidase, the enzyme responsible for degrading histamine). Also, DAO is manufactured by the placenta (to inhibit reacting the the “foreign protein bundle” gestating?), so many women notice lessening histamine sensitivity symptoms during pregnancy. Some folks get relief with supplemental DAO, expensive and hard to find, but ditching Villainous A would be cheaper…Thank you Matty! You rock!
@SheilaG: very interesting stuff about DAO
What about all the stuff you’ve said previously about recovering from dieting/eating disorders? I’m confused now because I thought that’s what I had to do, but are you promoting dieting again? I know if I did a low vitamin A diet I’d just go crazy again w food
We are discussing a possible dietary therapy for autoimmune disease and a few related conditions. A vitamin A depletion diet is NOT THE LEAST BIT APPROPRIATE FOR EATING DISORDER RECOVERY.
I hope it’s okay if I discuss more than just eating disorder recovery, and that you and others can distinguish for themselves what takes priority in their own personal case.
I have no health issues and I eat cereal and milk at least once a day bc I love the stuff. Giving that up would go against my eat for heat and intuitive eating. Matt, you even preach not to restrict foods your desiring.
I love cereal too. But I avoided it for a few months and since then every time I try to eat it my insides get raped, and the milk makes me quite snotty and wheezy. I think my cereal killing days may be over, sniffle sniffle.
I mostly look for cereals low in iron like organics which usually has little or no iron added. I use whole milk that is only fortified with D, not A. I don’t eat a lot of grains. Maybe 1 or 2 servings a day. Not much fortified grain except occasion restaurants. i don’t keep foods with PUFA oils in my house and rarely eat friend food or mayonnaise or salad dressinfs if they have any PUFA even canola.
I am thinking that the Sun depletes Vitamin A as you make Vitamin D and this happens if you have enough Cholesterol in your diet. I haven’t finished Grant’s books yet to see if he has that opinion. I do so much better in the summer and this sure could be why.
I think he does indeed mention that tanning can break up vitamin A stores. I remember something like that.
…and if you’re smothered with A-palmitate to prevent “burning”, interfering with/supressing the evolutionary answer to being in the conditions of strong sunlight hitting your bare skin (the generation of Vitamin D, in it’s elegant feedback loop which prevents overdose)…BAM! Super insult to the body.
Has anyone who claims to have had success with a low/no vitamin A diet (which also changes hundreds of other dietary variables) tested the theory properly by sticking to the same diet and adding in a high-dose vitamin A supplement to see if symptoms return?
That would be a great way to help test it out Clarence. Good idea.
There is a 10 year vegan on YouTube called Vegetable Police. Tired of gut problems, he went all beef and presto, gut pain vanishes. Two weeks in he adds in a multivitamin, and here come issues. I wish I could tell him to check out the vitamin A theory, but the comments are in the thousands (mostly vegans in dismay for the betrayal).
The vegans erroneously believe that plant based styles of eating are a panacea. Plants do not want to be eaten and defend themselves. Everything is a risk. We walk in a minefield with our every day dietary decisions, all of us.
I once, in 2007, had far too much cod liver oil and felt super sick. I’ve done much better with fish oil.When I used to blog, I awarded Drs. Caldwell Esselstyn and T. Colin Campbell jointly the Reptilian Dragon Penis Award 2012.
I like that Reptilian Dragon Penis Award, lol.
Cool theory, sorry about the recent asthma Matt. Local red tide probably wasn’t any help.
What’s fun about nutrition is, because it’s such a multi-variate field, a new theory like this can cut through and put into new context a lot of the health information and observation already out there. All of a sudden, looking through the lens of a different variable, new patterns and potential conclusions emerge.
Like how PUFA awareness can suddenly put into context why low fat vegan diets can be therapeutic, even if it’s not the vegan-ness per se.
Or in this case, how possible Vitamin A overload could explain why all beef diets can be therapeutic, even if they’re seemingly completely opposite.
Makes me glad to have an in-built laziness with supplements, buttressed by some post-hoc skepticism; I could very well be accidentally undermining myself when information emerges a few years down the road countermanding the old wisdom.
Cool stuff, will scope out Grant a bit and learn more.
Yeah the asthma was weird. Have had an asthmatic reaction to pet dander for 20 years, but last summer I got some exposure, had the typical couple days of wheezing, and then it just never cleared up like it always did in the past. I didn’t want to do anything about it really, so I fell into the temptation of using some inhalers. Within weeks the asthma became extremely severe, and I was literally dependent on inhalers to survive.
That’s when I was like “fuck it,” and started resorting to extreme measures to clear it up. And I have. First with fruit (although I couldn’t eat much of anything with that fruit without flaring up, so I had to quit that), and now a zero vitamin A diet with beef as the centerpiece. 30 days in and I’m 95% asthma free, off the inhalers completely, and doing it all at a dry climate at 7,000 feet of elevation (which always made my asthma worse in the past).
So it’s cool. I miss pizza though, lol.
And yeah, amen on being skeptical of supplements. I’ve been very skeptical of all supplements, and that may have been my saving grace if this vitamin A story proves to be at least partially true.
Have you heard of buteyko method. I know someone who cleared their asthma through it.
Wow that’s amazing. I have had asthmatic allergies to pets my whole life. Maybe I will try this, at least reduce and then eliminate cod liver oil. Not sure about the dietary A. Have you been able to be around cats and such now?
Where is your proof that all beef diets can be very good for people? A small handful of anorexics who complain of being in severe pain from sitting in hard chairs and are mean tempered and irrational and paranoid) Charles Washington for example? He and his followers only care about wearing two skinny jeans not having muscle mass and strength and cold tolerance and being able to sit on hard surfaces without being in agony. Their idea of a healthy diet is ground beef fromt Walmart and nothing else but water. Ha ha ha! They handle people who discuss problems there or elsewhere. They’re losers and fools.
They BAN people. Charles W has banned severak people that I know of. He is a pathetic closed minded bigot who thinks Owslru Stanley – aka The Bear – had all the secrets despite having heart disease and throat cancer and looking crappy and dying young on hisbzero-carb diet. He blamed everything but the diet like his mother making him eat broccoli as a kid. What a joke. His body and mind weren’t any better than Charles Wasjington. In fact they spoke against his dumb diet.
What’s your excuse for your atrocious spelling?
Hi died because of the car accident, not his diet.
re:inbuilt laziness with supplements – I think it’s just intuitive self preservation working. I have clients who have blueberries for breakfast EVERY FREAKING DAY in an effort to get their ever loving antioxidants. When in the history of humanity was that possible? We are built for feast and famine with regards to nutrients, at least the fat soluble ones…
I very much appreciate that Grants books are free. Cutting out vitamin A temporarily seems like a low-risk thing to try to test for improvement in chronic health problems. Think I will give it a go myself. Thanks for the info!
Wow. After reading his first book, I reeeeeealy hope his theories are true! I can identify with more symptoms than I would like to admit. I’m definitely trying it out!
I liked his brother’s diet.
Coffee and toast for breakfast, burger for lunch, steak and potatoes for dinner plus beer.
Sounds like my kind of diet.
Come on Paul. Don’t lie. You know you got excited at Grant’s daily tuna fish sandwich. Mmmm. Now that’s something I could eat every single day and never get sick of!
Bleck!
Alcohol, incidentally, depletes the liver of glycogen, and alcohol consumption seems to protect against a wide spectrum of autoimmune diseases. Drink up!
“Milk is for babies. When you grow up you have to drink beer.”
Arnold Schwarzenegger
If Vitamin A is actually a completely unnecessary toxic substance, then why on earth would our bodies have developed a mechanism to convert carotenes to Vitamin A?
Perhaps because retinol is less toxic than carotenes? Maybe it must be converted to retinol in order to be stored safely in the liver? Even Ray Peat, who seems to be a vitamin A fanboy, has pointed out many negatives of beta carotene.
Other critics of the potential downsides of vitamin A seem to believe that Grant’s theory is true for plant-derived vitamin A but not animal-sourced pre-formed vitamin A.
This could just be the old feast or famine argument.
Historically these substances would arrive in intermittent lumps. These days we are always topping up the tank without giving it a chance to run down from time to time.
@Paul: Yes! I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately. Feat or famine. Cycling calories, cycling nutrients, cycling everything! This seems like a big idea that needs to be looked into a.s.a.p. Do you know of any authors who talk about or promote it?
I know John Douillard has advocated seasonal approaches to eating. Might not be a bad idea really. I’m open to it.
The getting stronger blog has some stuff about beneficial adaptions to intermittent stress.
https://gettingstronger.org
Ron Mignery wrote about protein cycling promoting autophagy here:
https://proteincyclingdiet.wordpress.com/article/protein-cycling-diet-2s3nmvrwklbxs-1/
You could make an estimate based on the body’s storage capacity for various nutrients.
Liver glycogen can be used up in a couple of hours of high intensity exercise and replenished with sugar (sucrose). I expect that sugar highs occur when sedentary individuals overload the liver’s glycogen storage capacity.
Muscle glycogen can be depleted by replenished with starch, but the process takes a bit longer. Athletes carboload for a few days before races.
These foods contain water soluble vitamins that can only be stored in limited quantities. Vitamin C deficiency (scurvy) is one the first deficiency diseases to appear.
Fat can only be depleted very slowly and is stored in large quantities. It can take weeks to run down fat reserves, so I expect that fat is needed at a much lower frequency.
The liver can store months worth of fat soluble vitamins, so I expect that they are needed only on a monthly basis.
From this I would suggest a starch heavy diet for energy during the week with fruits as snacks. Fats and proteins would be eaten over the weekend. Think Sunday roast.
Things like liver and deep water fish would be eaten monthly as a supplement.
@Matt: I remember reading Douillard’s ideas but ultimately dropped it because he talked about going low carb in the winter, but I should re-read some of his stuff again.
@PaulS: thanks for the links I’ll check ’em out. The diet you suggested sounds very much like a Pacific Islander diet. Seems to work well for the Kitavans.
lol I’m reading the gettingstronger.org site, and not 2 minutes in and this guy is already gushing about Gary Taubes, a strong, reliable sign that the person who wrote the article is severely retarded. It’s what you expect, the thoroughly debunked Insulin hypothesis, go low carb, then cut out meals and fast a lot. His particular twist is “make a point of NOT eating when you’re hungry”, to disassociate hunger and the act of eating in a Pavlovian way!!!!! Then he’s like “I assure you this diet will not cause an eating disorder” lol I’m dead
Well starch os generally easy to gather on a daily basis, but meat is only caught in lumps, so I expect that many hunter gatherer tribes would follow this pattern.
Monotonous almost always seem to fail eventually. I expect that it is necessary to cycle between anabolic and catabolic phases, which this diet would do.
@PaulS: don’t let the carnivores hear you say that! Don’t you know that even in the midst of unrelenting ice ages and mass extinctions, our ancestors, armed only with rocks and pointy sticks were going out and easily hunting animals and eating meat three times a day every day without fail lol
Sorry, those were old links. It’s been a while since I read up on this stuff.
Check the dates. I expect that he was writing at the height of the Taubes craze.
I often get 1 or 2 good ideas from these guys and disregard the rest.
Actually come to think of it real carnivores like lions only eat about once a week, so that goes with my weekly meat feast theory.
@PaulS: I was reading about medical and nutrition advice from medieval Persia , and apparently physicians recommended you eat 3 big meals every two days, usually breakfast and dinner one day and lunch the next day. (Pregnant women, children and the elderly were exempt from this rule). Most ancient texts have a rule like this that amounts to mild caloric restriction. Made me think of that Stephan Guyenet talk at AHS where he argued that most of these tribes that have exceptional health all have one thing in common: Caloric Restriction.
So essentially intermittant fasting. Fasting protocols have been recomended throughout history.
We see that protein restriction leads to autophagy. Vegans experience short term benefits, but crash and burn long term.
Low carbers follow the same pattern.
Now we have another example with vitamin A.
Yup. The mistake everyone makes is not cycling it, continuing with the “famine” part indefinitely without any “feast” periods, which will lead to lean tissue loss, including from organs, and shot up thyroid, adrenals, lowered metabolism, lowered libido, mental illness, etc…
One of the nutrition people I follow on Twitter, Bill Lagakos, just posted about seasonal eating as well. http://caloriesproper.com/summer-is-fattening-dont-do-it-in-winter/
He’s trying to find some science to back T.S. Wiley’s ideas of humans having the mammalian pattern of fattening up in the summer to hibernate in the winter. Unfortunately, like John Douillard, his conclusion is to go low carb/keto in the winter, but I love ma carbs too much! :(
There’s definitely something here. Circadian rhythms, seasonal rhythms, feast and famine….
I think more and more people are just awakening to the fact that 16+ hours per day of light exposure, 365 days per year, mostly blue light–and looking directly into it at that–is strongly antagonistic to maintaining good health. Then they kind of overthought it from there, thinking we need to live off pemmican 6 months per year or BEETUS.
Primates generally live in the tropics, not the arctic.
I don’t think pacific islanders or mediterranean people were hibernating.
Maybe Neanderthals or some arctic tribes developed adaptions to the frozen north, but it hardly seems like a necessity.
@Matt: yeah maybe it’s overthinking it past the blue light and circadian stuff, I don’t know. It just piqued my interest because the body clearly has a fat storing mode, a cocktail of hormones it slaps together when it decides to get fat, so it’s tempting to think there is the opposite of this mode–a fat dumping mode–a.k.a. the magical unicorn as we call it. If there is one, and we can “hack” it, then that’s the holy grail right? My main interest in this topic is still the MATADOR study, alternating caloric restriction with maintenance to lose weight and not have the body fight back.
lol @ the pemmican. I like how they fail to mention the Native Americans mixed berries into their pemmican (haven’t they read Taubes!!!!!), and ate just as much corn, bean and squash.
@PaulS: Yeah I thought the same so I was reading about hibernation. Apparently there are many different levels of it, from obligate hibernators who go full blown cryosleep mode to softer versions of it like “torpor” where they’re not even asleep. The key thing happening is reduced metabolism, reduced heart rate, slow breathing rate and reduced body heat, all designed to conserve energy. It’s not just about avoiding the cold (there’s a summer version called aestivation), but also periods where food supply is low, which could be the summer as well, in the hot and dry season for example. It’s also a good way to avoid predation. I found examples of mammals hibernating even in Africa and the tropics, so it’s not unheard of.
Danny Roddy talked about the “race to torpor” and reduced metabolism on restrictive diets. Eg here http://180degreehealth.com/the-peat-whisperer-whispers-paleo/
People think that they can live longer by somehow slowing the metabolic process. Doesn’t seem like a good idea if you actually want to get anything done.
A lot of Matt’s writing is about people screwing up their metabolism with weird diets.
Race to torpor is a good name lol. I was excited when I first discovered his work but turns out it’s mostly about baldness (honestly, who gives a shit?), and random books from like 17th century Russia or whatever that talk about energies and auras etc. And his diet is milk, OJ, Mexican Coke and f**king crushed Aspirin. Jesus Christ.
While I agree that chasing torpor is bad, it is the logical conclusion IF your goal is longevity over all else. Billy Craig claimed that longevity (centenarians and supercentenarians) is due to high metabolic rate, but I don’t see how that’s possible since all long lived cultures practice Caloric Restriction, and if you read individual bios/obits of centenarians, It’s always someone who ate 1 to 2 meals a day.
I’m experiencing many of the torpor symptoms while eating 4000-5000 calories a day, eating for heat, and I’m morbidly obese, so I don’t see the point anymore in chasing the magic hyper-metabolism that is bestowed by the Thyroid gods
I think a high metabolism is strongly correlated with longevity, as it’s strongly correlated with body size (including height). Small people have much higher metabolic intensity, and they have a noticeably longer lifespan on average. They may not eat a lot of food compared to Sumo wrestlers, but on a pound-for-pound basis they actually DO eat more food and consume more oxygen than people of larger size, and are usually more physically active and energetic in general.
@Matt: oh yeah good point about size. I remember someone pointing out that most supercentenarians are on the smaller size. It’s usually more women than men, and women from Korea and Japan dominate the top of the longevity charts. Some longevity experts have theorized that estrogen is protective, and that’s why women live longer. So basically, no matter how many carbs I force feed myself and snort crushed Aspirin, I’ll never have the metabolism of 100 year old Korean lady lol
Again, I think the dumb explanations for women outliving men (menstruation and less iron, estrogen, blah blah blah) can 100% be explained by women being smaller than men. End of story.
p.s. I remember Dan Buettner mentioning that people in the Blue Zones are still having sex in their late nineties! There is no surer sign of good health and robust metabolism than strong libido.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/20/science/nucleolus-cells-aging.html
This is the kind of stuff I was talking about Matt. Gerontologists recently discovered that a small nucleolus is a strong predictor of longevity. Yeast, worms, fruit flies, mice and humans with small nucleoli live longer. What reduced nucleolus size? Caloric restriction. It is the factory of the cell that pumps out proteins, but when there’s less resources (food) coming in it shrinks in size. In an experiment they put humans on mild CR and exercise and the nucleolus shrunk. Every avenue of life extension requires restriction, from mTOR pathways (restrict protein) to Insulin pathways (restrict carbs), to autophagy (fasting, caloric restriction, protein restriction). Maybe you can cycle calories to avoid torpor and get the best of both worlds?
Perhaps smaller members of a species outlive larger members of the same species solely because they eat less?
@Matt: yep, I think so. Smaller means less caloric needs, means less fuel and less mileage on the engine. For example if I was at a healthy weight (and no, I don’t mean Brad Pitt in Fight Club level), then I could eat for heat at about 3000 calories or even slightly less. At my morbidly obese size, I need to push way past 4K, closer to 5k, to have a friggin pulse, good temps, and feel like getting out of bed every morning.
As you know, the higher the calories you need, the “dirtier” you need to eat–processed food, junk food, refined sugars and fats, PUFAs start piling up. You also need to eat at least 1K per meal, which is not that fun after a while and means guaranteed discomfort. Also, high calories means more insulin, more IGF-1, more mTOR activation, and everything else that comes with the anabolic state. Anabolism=growth but it also=ageing.
Not to get sidetracked into gerontology, I don’t care that much about living to a 120, but when I say ageing I’m talking about the accumulated wear and tear on all the organs involved with eating, which probably causes or at least accelerates all these connected diseases of metabolism and auto-immune. TL;DR I don’t think eating 5k calories a day is healthy.
Reading nutrition blogs is like panning for gold. You have to sift through a lot of junk for the occasional nugget.
I think baldness is actually interesting. Kind of like the canary in the coal mine of metabolic dysfunction.
Danny Roddy is mostly chanelling Ray “the solution is milk, oj and supplement with thyroid, now what was the question?” Peat.
I think that it is perfectly possible to maintain a high metabolism eating twice a day. Your body can store roughly a days worth of glycogen, so 2 starch heavy meals plus some fruit for snacks to top up liver glycogen would be perfectly sufficient to maintain energy levels.
Any more would probably overload your digestive system and could even suppress metabolism.
This rice and beef vitamin A diet would probably be ideal for weight loss. It is extremely satiating, has plenty of starch and monotonous diets almost always result in weight loss due to reduced food reward.
@PaulS: panning for gold is spot on, although I’m beginning to think there is no gold in them thar hills.
LOL at the Ray Peat think. I would add Ray “eat raw carrot salad every day even though I have thousands of pages of content talking about the evils of plants, fiber, and feeding your gut bacteria, because f**k you, that’s why” Peat.
I think baldness is actually interesting. Kind of like the canary in the coal mine of metabolic dysfunction.
Yet I know several bald guys who are healthier and more virile in their late 50’s than guys the same age and younger who have full head of hair.
In fact, I bet that epidemiologically speaking, there is no observable correlation between baldness and so-called metabolic dysfunctions.
I think I may experiment with removing beta carotene sources as well, to see if recovery from my symptoms is faster.
Thanks so much for this post. I hope the people experimenting with a reduction diet come back and update us all.
That’s was really the point of publicizing Grant’s work. It’s interesting, has potential, and with the state of health in the world and the complete lack of progress made in solving the most pressing diseases, no theory should be casually dismissed no matter how silly it sounds on the surface.
Hey Matt, Ive read two of Grants books now and they do make a lot of sense. But there also seems to be some studies that show benefits of vitamin A. Im not really great at analyzing studies, I cant figure out how this can be possible if vitamin A (especially retinyl palminate) is bad at any dose. Whats the deal? Could vitamin A be boosting these kids immune systems temporarily, giving short term benefits (which may even save lives), but long term harms? Or if not, what am I missing with studies like this? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/2194128/
Like Grant says, vitamin A is released by the liver to fight infection. So the body has clearly learned some ways to use it to its advantage. Since people in “Western” society have a lot less bacteria to fight off, he believes we’re more likely to overload our livers and develop long-term issues from it. Hence why autoimmune disease rates are so low in unsanitary areas and so high in sanitary areas. At least, that was his thought on the matter. So, potentially vitamin A is an asset in unsanitary areas and a liability in sanitary areas? Seems like a stretch. Just reporting what Grant’s beliefs are.
Yep, I eventually figured that out. I had read his last 2 books but I think that info was in his first one (which Ive now read as well). It does make sense. I cant say for sure if its true, but I also cant find many holes to poke in the theory. Other than the difficulty of finding much in the way of studies that show harm. Are you doing the diet? I hate the very idea of ever going back to restrictions, but I think as long as there is no stupid macronutrient or (shudder) calorie restrictions, it sounds promising. Ive been on a low VA (0-5% RDA diet depending on the day, for a week, and Im pretty sure I’ve noticed some good results. I remain skeptical but optimistic. Been burned so many times and I thought eat for heat was my last eating strategy haha.
No, carotenoids are not toxic and can be safely stored in subcutaneous fat. Retinol is far less toxic than its metabolite retinoic acid. Given that retinoic pathways are present throughout the animal kingdom and that the genes coding for it are very conservative (resistant against mutations) that fact alone would convince any biologist that it is somehow essential to life. There is a ton of research on retinoic acid. It initiates cell differentiation in embryonic tissue, and likewise in stem cells in all tissues. It is also very toxic, and therefore tightly regulated. The body gets rid of excess retinol by first converting it to retinoic acid, and eventually make it water soluble and excrete through the kidneys. To Matt’s idea that if the liver is full vitamin a becomes a problem I must object, that retinol can also be stored in the fat cells. Hypervitaminosis due to excessive intake of retinol is usually cured by stopping suppletion. Usually the body clears out the excess in a couple of weeks. I’d rather think that somehow the pathways regulating retinoi acid run awry in Grant’s and similar cases.
Maureen, I largely agree with what you’re saying, so the following is mostly quibbling and tweaking the emphasis.
The fact that even after a long period of abstaining from vitamin A, eating some vitamin A provokes a strong reaction (which Grant and Charlene Andersen both claim), suggests to me that there is a metabolic breakdown somewhere, and not simple vitamin A overload. There we agree.
However, that is still consistent with the possibility that something in Western diets overloads retinol pathways with available retinol and/or retinoic acid. Furthermore, it might also mean that until we figure out why retinol isn’t being handled correctly, the best course of action may well be to minimize intake.
The fact that retinol is stored in fat cells does not mean that doing so is ideal. For example, what if liver steatosis is simply the liver trying to protect itself from toxic levels of retinol, because it can’t get rid of the excess quickly enough?
The theory definitely puts people on guard. I don’t recommend telling people it loosely, unless you don’t mind appearing crazy. When I first heard about it, I mentioned it to my brother for a laugh. But his reaction was quite the opposite. In fact he wanted to know as much about it as possible, since we both had taken Roaccutane when we were young and naive, and our health has never been great since. The next day he compiled his own list of low VitA foods, and I was amazed. Afterall, he’s one of the laziest people I know when it comes to dieting. That’s when I started to think maybe I should take this theory more seriously. I decided to read one of Grant’s books and it definitely changed my outlook. I’ve been on the diet for just over a week now. There has been a little improvement in my health, but the biggest change is how my cravings have come under control. I’m also starting to enjoy a weak long black when I go to a cafe.
This “girl” is Stephanie Person.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmMJ2ioWma0SpD9N21OiuXA
http://www.stephanieperson.com/
She’s in her 50s.
And she eats A LOT OF KALE and shitloads of BUTTER.
Plenty of Vitamin A.
Not bad at all.
I stumbled on the the theories of Grant Genereux while lurking on the RayPeat-Forum from time to time (franco’s thread). Suffering from auto-immune issues myself and having followed several dietary experiences (which I’m pretty sure have worsened and even triggered some of my illnesses), I was of course interested in his findings and I thought I should share my observations:
– My hair loss and dry skin story really began when I was following a cooked vegan diet. My diet was fairly PUFA-ridden (at least 20% of calories) and I’m sure also pretty high in Vitamin A prescucors cause I wanted to do it the “healthy way”.
– Around two years into veganism, I began juicing a lot of vegetables and finally even tried a crazy raw vegan diet focussed solely on colourful raw vegetables, some nuts and especially centered around carrots (!). I remember eating large amounts of carrots all day long because I was too afraid of fructose. I only did this for 4 weeks or so and stopped because of weight loss. It was during that time that I experienced for the first time dandruff and itchy scalp. I also believe that this experience really triggered my cold sensitivity and f***** my metabolism in general. I returned to cooked veganism but my symptoms didn’t vanish.
– Few months later I went back to including some fish and shellfish in my diet. I felt great (although my digestion couldn’t handle this sudden change very well) and began reading on paleo sites of the importance of organ meats. So I tried a big piece of cows liver and approximately one week later I got a skin disease called seborrheic dermatitis which I suffer from till today. I never made the connection with the liver eating until I discovered Grant’s blog a few weeks ago and always thought it was because of the digestive stress I experienced from integrating animal products again or because of alcohol binging on weekends. But it has kept playing on my mind since then.
– Early 2018 I did two fruit juice feasts for several weeks each and which were very much centered around watermelons (heavy in lycopene = carotenoid). Although I felt great during the feast themselves, all my symptoms reappeared in a worse fashion after I stopped the juicing.
I think about giving GG diet a try. Relying on starches and meats isn’t the worst diet after all.
For those who want to read more, I also discovered a blog of a girl who got Vitamin A toxicity. Some good comments can be found in the comment section:
https://www.healthextremist.com/how-i-got-vitamin-a-toxicity/
Vollkorn, I hope you try the Zero A diet and it works for you.
I too only recently stumbled upon Grant’s site and books and can’t find much to argue against, even though I recognize the controlled use of it in the affairs of the body. PubMed is chock full of papers on that subject.
The thing that really grabbed my attention in the first week of reading Grant’s stuff, was his claim that rendering lard creates Retinoic Acid. I had a friend that drank himself to death, no doubt from the eczema that plagued him for 20 years. We used lard in the deep fryers in the restaurants his father owned. He lived and ate in those establishments as a manager.
I went to Florida with him to help open a new one and saw his skin clear-up, likely due to eating lots of hamburgers instead of fried fish coated with beer-batter.
He used alcohol to get to sleep. His dream world was completely messed-up. I’ve wondered about the real cause for many years and I’m pretty convinced Grant has nailed it.
I have two things to say about this:
1. Us humans spend so much of our energy, time, mental energy, money, etc. on living long, that we kind of forget to just enjoy the life that we do have now. Yes, we will eventually die one day. And because infectious diseases and exposure to weather or wild animals is no longer so much part of the equation, we’ll probably die from an old-age disease – that’s what they all are: Alzheimers, heart disease, cancer, etc. There really is no magic pill (or magic restriction), just yet. Sure, scientists are working on stopping the ageing process. Maybe we’ll get there soon. But hey, in the meantime, let’s just enjoy life. I’m so tired of damn restrictions. I’m already gluten intolerant and other things. Now I can’t eat tomatoes and I have to live on beef (which I don’t particularly like anyway).
2. Restriction in any way leads to metabolic breakdown. I’m just really surprised that you are talking about this, Matt. But I understand that you want answers for your asthma (and I would too), but I’m still not convinced this is it. I’ll definitely look into steering away from fortified foods, but veggies are like my favourite food. I don’t really want to cut them out and something tells me that’s a bad idea. Yes, I do have autoimmune responses in my body and I’m keen to find an answer to that one. I’m trying natural cleaning products as a start. A lot of it stems from toxins in our cleaning products and environment. Pollutants in the air too.
Let us know how this goes.
You have to live off ONLY beef due to food intolerances? How are you doing?
I noticed when I went onto an ONLY beef diet that I began reacting to all kinds of other foods when I left the diet. And it’s not improving.
This almost certainly has to do with the gut biome. If the right critters are present, they help break down plant compounds that are otherwise troublesome to the gut lining.
This is a potentially major downside to very strict diets as that causes further die-off of bacteria that feed on plant matter. If VA is to be avoided, I would say it’s better to keep as many low VA foods in the diet as long as they seem to be tolerated well.
This goes back to glyphosate (on top of antibiotics) wrecking gut microbiomes and gut health. Add in hybridization and GMOs that have the defensive compounds in plants at levels novel to humans and we have an unmitigated disaster in the works. And I still suspect this is causing the VA issues.
And remember there is almost certainly going to be some reaction when foods are reintroduced. Go slow and give it some time (a couple weeks at least) before immediately scaling back down.
Also, eat organic and avoid glyphosate as much as possible. We have got to get this crap out of the environment or we will all be sick (it’s just a matter of time). The disease trends are so alamrming right now that this is a make or break period in our history.
I prefer your “Eat an fing piece of pizza and stop worrying about all this shit” material. It has helped me greatly. Im not ready to jump on another miracle diet bandwagon.
After all my years of reading your blogs, Matt, all I want to know is one thing. Is water safe? In other words, can I eat that without Contracting half The Merck Manual? Just one substance, one single substance, that I can put into my body without it eating me back in retaliation would mean the world to me.
SARScastically,
Ian
That’s scary Matt – reading about how rodents developed skin cancer after being slathered in Vitamin A cream. I use a Retin-A cream regularly. I’m not sure now whether to stop it or not. I’m careful about avoiding the sun, but I know it makes your skin thinner and more sensitive. I haven’t noticed any ill effects (yet) and its been proven to work for wrinkles in so many studies over the years. Would you advise quitting in the name of health?
All this bickering about vitamin A is a waste of time. If you would all just follow the recommendations of Dr. Jack Kruse you’d be fine. In fact, if you join at his Gold level membership level within the next 30 days you will get a sneak peak at his new course,? The FORCE! It’s not just for the Sith and Jedi! So, quit all this belly aching about vitamin A and submit yourself to your new master, the one who has brought true balance to the FORCE, the Grand-Poo-Bah Himself, Dr. Jack Kruuuuuzzze!!! ????
Do you get a secret initiation at the gold level and a secret hand shake?
It’s better than that John! When you join up you get a light saber with your choice of either a blue, green, purple, or red light beam!
Hmm, I’m definitely skeptical here but I am totally on board with avoiding fortified foods, supplements and sunscreen. Everyone should do that regardless though.
Ugh, I really love butter, and milk. Luckily I can get whole milk without any added vitamins.
Anecdotally, I have had bad keratosis pilaris my whole life and it was never as bad as when I dabbled in WAP and was eating tons of fat soluble vitamins. It turned into oozing pimples all over my arms and legs…so gross. I was also trying to avoid the sun in those days too. The only thing that helps my kp is sunbathing to practically the point of burning my skin off. I don’t try to do that though for obvious reasons haha.
By limiting PUFAs and starches, Ray Peat style, I was able to sunbathe for hours in mid-day summer without one burn. Got rid of my dandruff too. You don’t need sunscreen. I have burned in the past when I ate more PUFAs like peanut butter, potato chips, pork and chicken fst, sardines, tuna; etc.
Okay, I would’ve immediately dismissed this guy because anyone who goes on a diet and gets an energy burst makes me think “low calorie diet (though I dunno what his caloric intake is) + sudden energy = eating disorder,” BUT geez he’s got me curious because this lines up with something I noticed anecdotally while involved in Gwyneth Owlyn’s eating disorder recovery community.
Okay, so firstly eating 3000+ calories per day completely cured me of a ton of different ailments (most notably chronic insomnia, bipolar disorder, paranoia, social anxiety, constipation, acne, severe fatigue, and being so cold I used to wear hoodies all summer).
But I noticed that a number of people following Gwyneth’s calorie guidelines (and well beyond during periods of extreme hunger, 4000+ calories easily, which I also experienced for the first several months of refeeding), gained wild amounts of edema (well beyond the mild puffiness I experienced during the first 6 months or so) which their bodies held into for YEARS afterwards. Several of those individuals ended up developing diabetes and/or autoimmune disorders after a year or three…
This isn’t due to the sugar consumption. I typically eat at least 1/3 cup refined sugar daily, and ate way more than that during the first couple years of my recovery.
This isn’t due to high carbohydrate consumption. I eat between 200 and 500 g carbohydrates per day.
This isn’t (likely) due only due to PUFA consumption, because while I butter my bread and potatoes and rice, I eat plenty of nuts and seeds and chips, too.
But the vitamin A idea has the potential to be a factor for two reasons…
1) I had a fairly low vitamin A diet growing up (no dairy, no fortified cereals), aside from a short WAPF inspired cod liver oil kick (which didn’t last long because ew and $$), so I imagine my stores of vitamin A aren’t “full” yet. This may not have been the case for those ED recoveres who developed inflammatory diseases.
2) Aside from Sam’s Choice Ice Cream, which I ate copious amounts of during the first four months of recovery, and butter and eggs, I didn’t eat many vitamin A rich foods (I don’t even drink milk, but rather eat yogurt). Breakfast, for me, is either oatmeal or cream of wheat (no vitamin A) with butter or cereal cream (contains vitamin A, but not fortified) and sugar. But several people who developed inflammatory disease would eat heaps (like sometimes an entire box full) of fortified breakfast cereal with milk every day, which would result in several times more vitamin A than my breakfast.
Maybe it’s a small difference. Maybe it’s nothing. But what if it is an important factor that could help then get their immune systems in order? (Along with a robust and healthy population of beneficial gut bacteria, if course. Hey I wonder how retinoic acid or whatever interacts with the microbiome?)
Thanks for posting about this, because it’s very interesting. Will read more.
*robust and healthy is redundant xD
Synthetic vitamin A is absolutely a problem. There is no evidence that naturally occurring vitamin A (not speaking of beta carotene) in naturally occurring amounts with naturally occurring co-factors taken in ancestral amounts (read: not multiple tablespoons daily of PUFAs like poor Dr. Ron) is toxic.
@puddleduck: he said he eats 2300-2400 calories a day. I don’t know how tall he is or what his activity level is, but 2400 is not too shabby. I hear you though, the honeymoon phase of new diets is real.
Thanks for that, Skeptic! That’s low imo (he should have 600-700 more calories daily if he is between 5’4″ and 6′), but not extreme.
That’s not too low for a 57-year old medium-sized dude that’s moderately active. Most see their caloric needs drop by about 1% per year after 30. And I think he was eating about the same amount of calories before and exercising more when he started getting his middle-age gut (now gone).
Whether or not his caloric intake is ideal (I’m going by Owlyn’s info–I’m far from an expert), if he hasn’t lowered it since starting his diet (while also reducing exercise) then he’s not experiencing an ED related energy rush. That fact makes me more interested in his idea and also happy he has found something that has improved his health so dramatically without causing damage! :)
Agreed
I’m open to know more about the theory but I have some questions. The vitamin A that is added to food is synthetic. Does this have a different effect? I think it might. Carotene conversion to vitamin A is limited by poor thyroid and liver function. Many people seem to have vitamin A deficiencies due to chronic infections. Many people don’t eat carotenes and almost no one eats pre-formed vitamin A in foods like pastured eggs, grass fed dairy, and organ meats. I’ll take a look at it though with skepticism, but an open mind. Supplement vitamin A is an different than what you get in foods.
This. 100% this. But hey, this isn’t pot-stirring that generates clicks, so hey.
I’m having some good initial results with decreasing my vitamin A intake. I could never go completely without it because it would limit my diet too much. My initial goal was to stay below 1,000 IUs per day. I doubt that I’m actually accomplishing that. I’ve been on too many diets that required tracking every morsel and I just can’t bring myself to do it any more. I believe I have significantly decreased my vitamin A intake by choosing foods from my list with lower amounts of A and by only occasionally indulging in foods with higher amounts.
However, I can’t attribute my positive outcomes entirely to reduced vitamin A because I also started taking 3,000 mg of Taurine (divided). And, even before I started reducing my A intake and taking Taurine, I was eating for heat. Within a couple of months, my temps came up and my appetite decreased.
So it could be a combo of low A, Taurine, and EFH. Or it may be none of those things. But anyway, here are my results since the middle of June:
– Lost 3.5″ in bust, 4″ in waist, and 3.5″ in hips. That corresponds to dropping one size for me. (I’m 5’5″ tall.) I don’t have a scale so I don’t know how many pounds I’ve lost.
– Skin is much softer and smoother. Age spots and rough, flesh colored bumps on my torso and forearms are getting smaller, less noticeable and some have disappeared completely. I wear sandals all summer and usually my heals become dry, rough, and cracked. Didn’t happen this year. They are soft and smooth.
– I can go out in bright sunshine without sunglasses and night vision is greatly improved. I can go from bright sunshine to a dark room and see just fine. And I can go from dark to bright without squinting.
– My digestion is greatly improved. Chronic diarrhea is gone. GERD is infrequent and mild.
– My fingernails look amazing. Very strong. The moons are beginning to reappear.
I’ll keep the group updated on whether or not I continue to make progress. I’m very happy about how far I’ve come and if this is as good as it gets, I’m okay with it.
Please update. I always wondered what happened to my moons. I have two left on my thumbs, barely visible and it would be cool to get them back and have soft feet again, also in summertime.
I also supp with Taurine.
nice
I use Solgar brand Taurine because it’s made in the U.S. and it doesn’t have any other supplements with it. Vitamin Shoppe has its own brand but it also has B6.
That’s so awesome! What Taurine brand do you use?
Jeanne — I, too, was curious about what type of taurine you use?
I’m using one that’s a spray and supposedly well-absorbed. It says in big bold letters not to exceed 100 mgs per day. Not sure if that’s a high enough dosage to do anything…
Turtlegurl,
Do you mind sharing which Taurine spray you are using?
Thanks
Kaykay — sure: it’s from GoodHealthNaturally.com
Thanks, turtlegurl!
KayKay — I would NOT recommend getting that taurine spray. Apparently, they put citric acid in it, and the directions tell you to hold it in your mouth for 2 minutes before swallowing = recipe for tooth decay.
Interesting tidbits: In the U.S., the RDA for Vitamin A for all adults is 5,000 IUs. But in Europe, the RDA for men is 3,000 IUs and 2,300 IUs for women (not pregnant and not lactating). Seems like a big difference. Wonder how those values were determined.
Not only vit A Differ between us and europe but many other vitamins as well, if not all. I wonder why that is…
For those curious: In sweden we don’t use IU for vit A but RE, the rdi for retinoids are 800 RE (retinol equivalents)
1 RE =
1 mcg retinol
2 mcg betacarotene (supplement)
12 mcg betacarotene
24 mcg alpha carotene or betacryptoxantine
1 IU is 0,33 mcg retinol
It does seem like another eating disorder diet. I feel natural foods of a variety are most beneficial but have felt the best thing I learned from Matt writings was about danger of low calories and the dangers of over restrictive diets. There seems to be no real evidence that Grant was A abundant. All these others who benefited seem to have cut out a lot of other foods that might be harmful.
The other aspect of this is that if there is a link, it is to either synthetic vitamin A or isolated vitamin A which never occurs in nature. These are the types of A added to foods. No one in America eats concentrated vitamin A rich foods. Ray Peat’s diet has good amounts of A from dairy products if they come from grass fed animals.
I haven’t read all the assigned homework yet so I’ll be back later, but just a couple things real quick:
1) Blue Zones. How does Genereux explain the fact that they have the lowest rates of all these diseases while it should be the opposite according to him?
2) what increased in the last 40 years is THE question, but unfortunately, there are so many answers to that that it becomes almost useless. Here’s one: coffee. It went way up in that time period. Who’s to say it’s not a secret villain?
3) personal experience: I don’t eat fruits, veg, seafood (yuck), no liver or magic Sally Fallon foods, no accutane or sunscreen. How did I become saturated?
Hey, Skeptic:
I just read the following and remembered your comment about not eating fruits and veg.
“Kencko wants to help you eat more fruit and vegetables. Sachet-based drink includes pulp and vitamins absent in pressed juice.”
https://techcrunch.com/2018/08/26/kencko
Gee, “science” to the rescue. Just add water. Just like “The Jetsons.”
Of course, if you read the opinions of Georgia Ede (and, you probably have), she doesn’t seem to believe that fruits or vegetables are required. In fact, she thinks vegetables could potentially harmful.
I feel like I’m in The Twilight Zone.
Oh yeah I know the Edes, I bought into their bullshit once. They’re currently enjoying enjoying a return to the spotlight as in 2017, keto was fad of the year, and in 2018, carnivore is fad of the year.
Your comment reminded me of the legendary Oldways conference in 2015, a Council of Nicaea of sorts where tons of nutritionists and physicians convened to try to reach consensus on nutrition and decide what is canon. It was a hilarious failure as you can imagine.
A quote from an article describing it: ?Ninety minutes into the meeting, we were still trying to agree what the hell a vegetable was,? said Dr. David Katz, director of Yale University’s Prevention Research Center. ?That was a dark moment.
Later Katz tried to spin the conference as totally awesome, while in reality the only thing they (kind of) agreed on was “eat more plants and seafood”, but as you can see from this year with the Carnivore fad trending, there’s even doctors and PhD nutritionists questioning whether plants are even necessary and/or “TOXIC POISON” (except for coffee of course).
THEY. CAN’T. EVEN. AGREE. ON. VEG. BEING. GOOD. FOR. YOU.
I can’t think of a clearer sign that humanity has peaked.
“I can’t think of a clearer sign that humanity has peaked.”
hahahaha – I literally laugh aloud at that one!
Minor point, but you may have been referring to Mike and Mary Dan Eades, versus the carnivore zealot Georgia Ede.
http://www.diagnosisdiet.com/foods
Funny enough, when typing her name into Google, it tried to autocomplete the word “quack” after her name. LOL.
I recall reading an interview of S. Boyd Eaton, regarding the Oldways Conference you mentioned.
“The Paleo Diet, Without Meat?”
ChicagoTribune.com/dining/ct-paleo-vegetarian-food-0217-20160215-story.html#
In re-reading the article, I’m reminded of how much I dislike Mark Hyman. He’s one of the many Functional Medicine people whom I wish would just go away.
Oh god — Mark Hyman. I, too, wish he and his 200 teeth would just go away. When I typed his name into Dogpile (my fav search engine), it autofilled “fraud”. These search engines know the truth. If “functional medicine” didn’t already have a bad name…
The Eades got some of my money when I bought “Protein Power”. I read it all, took copious notes, did every stupid thing they recommended, and…the only difference is that now I have a little less money.
I was just looking at one of Hyman’s websites, where he sells his boatloads of supplements.
The 10-day Detox Basic Supplement pack (at a special price of $146.47, down from $162.75!!!) is only one of the supplement packs you apparently need for this program. And get this: although this is sold as something you will take just for this short detoxing period, it says, “THESE SUPPLEMENTS SHOULD BE TAKEN EVERY DAY FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE FOR MAXIMUM EFFECT.” The caps are mine, but that is what it actually says, word for word.
I’m sure he and his teeth are laughing all the way to the bank…
I went to Google Images and searched “200 teeth” to look for something funny. Big mistake. It was worse than that photo of the weirdo on the beach with the angel wings and the codpiece. I feel like I’m going to barf.
I can’t believe Dogpile is still around. I think I last used that in my Netscape browser in Windows 95!
Good ol’ Hymie. He just wants what’s best for us.
Here’s what his supplement pack should have actually stated:
“THESE SUPPLEMENTS SHOULD BE TAKEN EVERY DAY FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE, FOR MAXIMUM BENEFIT…OF MY BANK ACCOUNT. HAHAHA, SUCKERS.”
Also…
I was reviewing one of the many online health “Summits” and researching information on some of the presenters. Here’s one of them – a lady named Elle Russ:
https://www.paleofx.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/elle-russ-468×468.jpg
I knew the Paleo folks were confused. But, hunting coconuts with a spear? It’s worse than I realized!
I wonder if lactose intolerance has any connection to vitamin A toxicity? I’ve read articles about how lactose intolerant people are low on Vitamin D.
I haven’t looked on your blog too much, so maybe you have already addressed this thought?
Most people are low in vitamin D. I found it very interesting that Grant’s vitamin D levels skyrocketed up to the upper optimal range as his vitamin A levels approached zero, without supplementation or sunbathing and the like. Just as Dr. G has pointed out, the best way to get your vitamin D levels up are to reduce your intake of calcium and vitamin A.
LOL this whole time I thought that website was Mary Eade’s website! (not sure how I missed the name Georgia right at the top). I guess I zone out the second I hear the “evil carbs” schtick.
Eades, Ede, whatever. Same thing. :)
That’s totally understandable. It’s a carb cacophony!
1. Not sure. Okinawans apparently eat sweet potatoes. I did see this: “The traditional Okinawan diet was about 80 percent carbohydrates.” Perhaps their diet is low enough fat such that carotenoids can’t be absorbed or converted to retinol. But it is a fair question. Another possibility is that Okinawans, in response to their diet, are particularly bad at conversion of carotenoids, but I’m skeptical of that.
2. If I had to guess, it could be higher consumption of colorful veggies (high in caretonoids), eaten with dietary fat, which may improve their absorption and conversion into retinol. For example, pizza or sauteed veggies, or fortified cereal with milk.
3. Yeah, from your diet you’re not an obvious candidate. Do you eat lots of dairy? If not, what _do_ you eat? Did you ever take supplements with A?
I wonder what the vitamin A content of Okinawan purple sweet potatoes is compared to orange-fleshed sweet potatoes, and how much they eat? Again, it’s a long-term cumulative issue, so as long as they don’t overflow their livers, they shouldn’t experience many negative effects, as the theory goes. There are also numerous protective factors. Garrett is diving deeply into that subject now.
The clue is higher up the comments… Vitamin A is depleted by production of Vitamin D. I reckon traditional Okinawans would get a bit of sun…
No, zero supplements of any kind, don’t eat dairy, no fruits or veg, although lately I’ve been eating a lot of butter so maybe that put me over the top? I don’t do pastured butter just generic.
But even so, I’ve had eczema since I was like ten or eleven, but Grant said it takes years to accumulate? It also seems to react to certain soaps, and I’ve had others with eczema tell me the same thing, that they avoid certain brands of soap because it causes a flare up. I don’t see how this squares up with Grant’s ideas.
Butter is dairy! There’s a fair bit of vitamin A in it, and it would be of the preformed retinol variety, which may be more of problem compared to carotenoids found in vegetables.
If you’ve always eaten a lot of butter, or if you did have some period in your life of high vitamin A exposure, it could still be consistent with the saturated liver hypothesis.
Otherwise, it suggests that the problem is one of retinol metabolism, instead of overloaded storage. Or, or course, that retinol has nothing to do with it at all.
@Skeptic Personally not a fan of diet soda at all. I only drink the regular stuff. I think that if your body is craving sugar and you give it some artificial substitute it just screws with your system.
Have you tried eating more fruit or even just drinking regular soda?
lol I know I know! I’ve only been eating it for the last 8 months-ish because my stomach pretty much refuses to digest anything now, and butter seems to go down easy. But like I said, I got eczema at age 10, and Grant said it takes decades to accumulate, that’s why the diseases he talks about are mislabeled “diseases of old age”.
p.s. are sodas and diet sodas on Grant’s radar at all? Because I have a pretty bad addiction, 2 liters a day of diet coke, I briefly quit for 2 months but promptly relapsed.
@Skeptic. Oops replied to the wrong person. See above on soda.
For what it’s worth, I agree with PaulS about drinking regular soda, if you’re going to drink soda at all. I’ll forgo some of the reasons why, because you probably know more about the subject than I do! But, since you used the word “addition,” then the issue likely goes beyond taste preference.
I have a cousin that used to drink Diet Coke like mad. Thankfully, he eventually gave it up. But, he had a tough time doing so. He didn’t even like the taste, at first, but he was brainwashed about calories. Over time, though, he came to like the taste and crave it.
Personally, I cannot have artificial sweeteners, due to triggering migraines. In a way, I’m glad I have the problem and am thankful I finally realized the link.
If you currently drink ANY carbonated beverages with or near meals, I suggest trying to avoid them within an hour before AND after meals. This might help improve your digestive woes.
Oh yeah I’d rather drink regular Coke, and I did until a year and a half ago, but now that I’m prediabetic, I get seriously dizzy when I drink juice or regular coke. Can’t tolerate it anymore. I don’t eat fruits because the indigestion is a goddamn nightmare after eating them.
@Carl: I only drink them with meals though lol, and the sad thing is I think they help me digest, but I have to quit again. I definitely feel the difference when I quit, and last time I lost 7 pounds after I quit, with no change in diet or activity whatsoever, which goes to show how toxic this crap is.
The addiction comment makes me think of Stephan Guyenet’s talk about food reward.
Even without calories, the sweet flavour probably desensitises your tastebuds.
yeah I believe so as well
Skeptic- I’ve been thinking about the blue zones thing since reading Grants books.
We went to Ikaria last year (my husbands family is from there) and my guesses are: dairy is sparse – processed raw and used as yoghurt not milk, and they don’t eat much hard cheese – white cheese seems much lower in A- at least feta is.
Seasonal eating- no brightly coloured vegetables available over winter. They tend to trade within the community for foodstuffs and don’t have a corporate food system which makes every type of food available 12 months of the year. There are actually very few supermarkets in Greece- the ones I saw were tiny and selling small amounts of local produce.
Rice,potatoes, pasta and bread are carb staples.
They don’t actually use red sauces all the time- like we think -cooking in lemon type sauces is common too.
The most common fish to eat is sardines and squid -both quite low A plus the waters are warmer so less vitamin a in the fish generally anyway.
They trust nothing from the corporate food system so no fortification and there is barely any food in packets even in the supermarket- as in sweets /cereal / biscuits isle and the water (all from mountain springs) is amazing. And they don’t eat that much offal.
I suspect their diet is also quite high in vitamin e. A lot of walnuts, pumpkin and sesame seeds are consumed.
And then you have all the other things- everyone happy despite grumbling about the economy- no pharmacies, no supplements, hardly any wifi/cell phone use as they can’t afford it, and I’m convinced that dancing might help the detox process in some way.
Interesting article,but I personally find it a bit hypocritical that you use The Andersens as example to prove your point.
A family which has been zerocarb for 20 years,whereas in previous posts you were making fun of carbless diets that it’ll f*ck up your health.
Besides that…she has been eating fatty beef for 20 years, so she has been getting in Vit.A. There are also a lot of other possible irritants (histamines,salicylates..) in liver,which could’ve caused her to tolerate it poorly.
There are actually people who eat liver daily and don’t suffer from vit.A toxicity.
I do think that for most it’s probably not optimal to use vit.A supplements like candy or drink Cod liver oil like there’s no tomorrow.
@Dutchie: 1)just because she has a rocking bod doesn’t mean she’s healthy. She could have depression, anxiety, brain fog, etc for all we know. Dogmatic dieters are rarely honest about their health.
2) as we’ve seen from Shawn Baker’s blood tests, you can be “zero carb” and still have glucose coming out the ass from gluconeogenesis…
@Skeptic I didn’t say anything about her body, bc whether she’s toned or not isn’t relevant for this article.
What irritates me is the hypocrisy…..dismissing all ‘diets’ as not healthy.
So,that leaves us with what?! only at Eat4Heat as the way to health?
I’m glad that it has helped many people,but Eat4Heat/RRARF only managed to worsen my body even more. Ironically, some of these supposedly ‘unhealthy diets’ have managed to calm things again.
I guess what disappointments me a bit,is that the tone of this site now has a slightly self-righteous taste to it.
Are you saying I have a self-righteous tone? Going from bashing all diets to exploring something as weird and restrictive as this is anything but something present self-righteously. It’s humbling. Fucking embarrassing really.
I’m sorry, Matt.
Looking back at the extremely difficult recoveries some had, it does make me wonder about fortified foods (and supplements in general). Because we were eating a lot of easy to digest foods, many of those foods were inherently fortified. Also, because resting was a big part of recovery, many did not get outside much. I wonder if the mystery behind what went “wrong” with so many recoveries simply had to do with eating so much fortified foods and lack of sunshine? Maybe that was a disastrous combination that nobody recognized. It’s interesting to consider that the answer may have literally been right under our nose ever time we took a bite of food.
Despite your embarrassment, I appreciate your willingness to still put yourself out there to try to find answers. This may potentially be the answer for some who are still suffering with their recovery. Avoiding fortified foods/supplements may be the first step in finally seeing a turnaround in their recovery. I had to stop eating fortified foods because testing showed that I was having a difficult time with sulfites and histamine. Possibly the improvements I made at that point also had to do with the fact that I was no longer eating the added vitamins in the fortified foods. I don’t have a problem with sulfites anymore, and I’ve slowly improved my tolerance to histamine. A doctor in your comment section mentioned the connection she found to Vitamin A and histamine intolerance after reading your article. It was very interesting and curious to read what she had to say after what I’ve been through. It may not be the answer to every ill, but you may have hit upon one piece of the puzzle that will make a difference…fortification and vitamin supplementation. Thank you.
We are all looking through our little hole in the fence at the big picture. We can’t see it all at once. Letting go of the idea that your view is the best or the only one is the first step in recognising that there is something to learn from everyone’s hole in the fence.
To be fair, eat4heat and RRARF we’re primarily for people with eating disorders, and/or those with low metabolisms caused by restriction. For those people, the advice is still the same. Also, the refeed is, and always has been, supposed to be temporary, until you fix your relationship with food and hopefully your metabolism.
I understand your frustrations, many of us feel that way about the lack of answers.
It’s true that it drew a lot of people with ED’s, but there were also a lot of testimonials of people healing whatever they were dealing with.
Now,I’m not blaming Eat4Heat/RRARF for my ill(er) health,bc I’m the one responsible…I partook in it.
I’m just saying that Eat4Heat could be just as much a ‘diet’ to take the piss out on as all these other diets….
@Dutchie: from what I remember, most testimonials were about reversing stuff caused by restriction in the first place: depression, anxiety, brain fog, bad digestion,low libido, messed up menstruation, hair loss, sensitive teeth, etc..
I don’t think anyone said they cured any of the big bads like cancer and autoimmune.
But yeah, no diet is correct. A thousand years from now (if we manage to avoid WW3), scientists will be laughing their ass off reading about our shitty theories on nutrition.
It doesn’t matter anymore…..the damage has been done.
This is not the site for me anymore…..it was fun visiting here, but I guess I don’t see much value in visiting here anymore.
You had fun visiting here? Never seemed like it. Every communication of yours I’ve read seems like complete misery.
Matt, i subscribed to this thread and I no longer want to follow. I tried to unsubscribe several times, and I never received an email where I could unsubscribe. Could you please look into this. I have a million emails from this thread.
thank you.
This also sounds like a low salicylate diet, which has been said to help with all sorts of things (including asthma). My kids and i all benefit from not having too many salicylates, even though they are supposed to be healthy. I think it’s due to lack of minerals needed to process them properly, but I’m not sure.
New to this but quite familiar with the skin stuff…Wondering -any THYROID connections to too much Vit A??
Yes, potentially. Thyroid hormone T4 and retinol are both transported in the body via the protein transthyretin. I haven’t seen any conclusive studies, but excess VitA could interfere with thyroid function since they would compete for this transport protein. There have been some studies on how VitA supplementation or deficiency affects TSH levels and thryoid gland size, but the results have been conflicting.
karen — it could be just coincidence, but my Graves’ Disease (autoimmune hyperthyroidism) had been relatively calm for several years, until this past year, when I took tons of Vit A tabs and fermented cod liver oil. I developed the worst episode of hyperthyroidism I’ve ever had, and ten months later, it still isn’t over.
Out of interest have your had your vitamin D blood levels tested recently, if so, what were the results? Thank you.
Hello Matt,
Could you outline a typical day of zero Vitamin A eating for you please?
Do you people know what the word multi-factorial means? Has it occurred to you that about 1000000 things changed in 1980 with the modern world beyond the simplistic things you’re cherry picking for this ‘theory’? No, no you do not. Our entire food supply, activity levels and lifestyle were changing resulting in a massive increase in obesity which is, in and of itself, an inflammatory state. To blame one thing is simplistic idiotic.
But I guess simplistic scare-tactic nonsense is better than actual research or critical thinking.
Hello, Lyle-
Though you were mentioned in the comments section of the previous blog post (and others), I don’t believe I’ve ever seen you comment on this site. It’s like spotting Bigfoot.
Oh dang it’s Lyle. I agree about the bagillion factors thing, too many to count, too many dots to connect. However, it’s very interesting that all these diseases have a common root: inflammation/autoimmune, and that might narrow down the search hopefully.
It’s OVER for your sales, McDonald. You are most definitely a physics illiterate booksalemen scammer. I have exposed your ignorance in tje OMAD Diet thread.
You cannot even grasp what energy and its units are-NOTHING AT ALL-FICTION. You could easily use “calories” for the Hiroshima explosion, you coukd use mega-cycles or inverse fermiins for food.INVOKING ENERGY AS A CAUSE OF IBESITY IS THE SAME AS SAYING MAGIC DID IT. FEYNMAN SAID THAT. ENERGY KS FICTITIOUS BUT USEFUL. IT IS NEVER CAUSAL AND CANNOT ACT. MATTER AND ENERGY HAVE NO RELATION. TOP LHC PHYSICISTS STRESS THIS. MATTER IS STUFF, RADUATION IS STUFF, TOO. NOT MATTER, BUT NOT ENERGY EITHER. AND , NO, CALORIES ARE NOT, NOT, NOT NEBULOUS , INVISIBLE ENTITIESL THEYNARE ENTIREKY FICTITIOUS. GET AN EDUCATION.
No, Lyle, calories are not important, nor do they even exist. CARBON ATOMS ABSORBED IN THE BLOOD ARE ONE OF THE IMPORTANT FACTKRS. GEMETICS AND HORMINES, TOO, EVEN MORE SO. They are totally FICTITIOUS and NOT intrinsic to food. You cannot grasp the caloroe/inversefermiin/erg model of obesity is WRONG. WE SEE OBESITY IN THE MOST EXTREME DESTITUTE POVERTY-CASE CLOSED, THE ULTIMATE TEST…… I AM ON TAUBES’ TEAM, HE HAS DONE FAR MORE TO FURTHER KNOWLEDGE THAN YOU HABE. TAUBES RIGHTFULLY CRITICIZES THE CALOROE MODEL TO THE POINT OF ADEQUATE REFUTATION. HE ALSO ASKS THE RIGHT QUESTIONS.
ARE YOU EVEN AWARE THAT MATHEMATICAL MODELS DO NOT REPRESENT REALITY! THEY COME AND GO AS HUMANS FIND THEM USEFUL. A LEGEND IN PHYSICS STRESSED THAT TO ME. NOBEL WINNER FOR HJS WORK ON QCD, DAVID GROSS, IS BACKING GARY TAUBES 100%. HEJUST LAUGHS AT YOUR TYPE.
You (and Nikoley, Krieger etc.) bullied Matt and I back in the day, but I have far surpassed you, Colpo, Aragon, Krieger and the rest of your douchey clan in physics knowledge. You are all misusing ohysics tobkame obesity victims. Fat cells can sheink with radiation, can have mechanical force applied and disintegrate like all other body tissues. No FICTIIN DEFICIT NECESSARY…. WHAT REALLY IS OCCURING JS A CARBON ATOM SHORTAGE.
OBESITY IS EXTREMELY POORLY UNDERSTOOD, NEXT TO NOTHING IS KNOWN ABOUT FAT CELL DYSREGULATION AND HOARDING. WE HAVE NO SOLUTIINS FOR SEVERE OBESITY. URGELT IS FAR SMARTER THAN YOU. I ENCOURAGE EVERYBODY TO GO TO HIS YOUTUBE VIDEO AND READ HIS COMME TS ABOUT SHYSTERS LIKE YOURSELF. I KNOW HOW LITTLE ELITE PHYSICISTS KNOW . I know for a fact you fitness bros are ALL BULLSH@TTING.
I have the e-mails from physicists verifying this that you misuse physics for sales and to place blame on victims of obesity. I AM GLAD THE WELL IS DRYING UP FOR YOU.
CICO: Carbon-In Carbon-Out! :-)
Good to see you, Razzle Dazzle!!
Thanks, Carl. : )
I had tasty inverse fermions today along with mega-cycles. These fictitious units sure as tasty as well as nutritious. LOL!
Check out this videov “New Lingerie Styles For Angels” on YouTube. I ROTFLOL!
Whoops, It’s actually this phrase for the video “South Beach Latest Lingerie For Angels”. ROTFLOL. You cannot unsee that.
MY EYES!! MY EYES!!
hahahahaha. Wow. That made me think of the “People of Walmart” website/videos and the things they wear.
Truth really is stranger than fiction!
He probably just came from Wal-Mart. And no one even noticed him there.
Energy is not why atoms jiggled, not what keeps them jiggling , nor what heats up the water. Go place your water for coffee umder a biiig flame. Same principle. All setting food on fire demomstrates is how much carbon and oxygen atoms like each other…… The total chaos and wild, indiscriminate catastrophe of oxidation that is fire is NOT EVEN REMOTELY like the human body’s slower suoer selective chemical cascade…..
Your water for coffee got hotter by the motions of atoms emitting radiation. We ASSIGN ENERGY , a charcteristic, a NUMBER we make up, due to MOTION to atoms. Energy is NOT why atoms or toys move.
Energy and its units are fictitious. A hot cuo of coffee has more calories, inverse fermions than that same cup very cold. But it cannot make you fatter, more muscular etc. Or add matter to the body…. Why? The same amount of CARBON ATOMS are in both.
When atoms transfer their jiggling to other atoms (they are nearoy perfectly elastic)
and jiggle faster and faster they emitt light and heat. Light, while not matter, is stuff-it certainly is NOT energy, it is stuff, part of the electromagnetic field. X -Rays, gamma rays microwaves, infrared HEAT (pitt vipers see this heat, this radiation- heat is radiation, stuff, it can act and damage ) are allll the same stuff, just at different frequencies, lengths of waves.
Energy cannot damage human cells, it is not…anything…. The body involuntariky can dominate our phhsiques if ir wants to. Imhave seen this firsthand with my friend’s disease. This system is there, present and it tracks carbon atoms better than we ever coukd consciously… If somebody wanted to track something, track CARBON GRAMS . FORGET CALORIES, FORGET ALL FICTIONAL UNITS. THEY NEVER WERE CAUSAL OF ANYTHING.
Stop abusing thermodynamics and wringly applying macroscopic thermodynamics of cars, olanes, steam engines to humans. Thermodynamics dies nit address fat cell dysregukatiin. Further, the thermodynamics of molcular motors, molecular machinery of life is RADICALLY DIFFERENT from that of steam engines. Life thermodynamics of non equilibrium ooen systems deals with stochastic thermodynamics. ATP synthase can run BACKWARDS occasiinalky, The Too thermodynamics expert(recommended to me by MIT physicists) in tje world told me personally obesity is a biochemical issue NOT one of thermodynamics.
There is your very public physics education. Bring your friends, I would be happy to expose their ignorance as well. Taubes won the Aragon debate hands down.
I have over 100 e-mails collected from too physicists debunking you and your incorrect , phony singular equation. I know for a fsct it is comoleteky wrong. I knew J
Dr. Polchinski, you foolish guy.You are outright laughable. Just change occuoatiins akready. Or admit you were wrong and be nice to Taubes, work together to rethink your ideas. I look forward to taking on you , Krieger and Coloo if I ever blog again.
Science needs MANY hundreds to THOUSANDS OF METHODS.New, more creative methods. The RCT is NOT the gold stanard anymore and it failed big time to deliver adequate data for doctors ro go on. Had to do with some nasal vaccine. It is outdated. We need much better today. You promote myths, Lyle.
Science has a huhe subjective element.Great scientusts do not overstate it like hokey popularizers. We are not even Tyoe 1 civilizatiin yet, aliens may have different modeks than us. Also, scientific exoeeiments and ibservatiins require judgement kf what to look at and pay atgentiin to AND WHAT TO IGNORE
, AS FEYNMAN SAID
What we thiught was fundamemtak CHANGES, as Dr. Krauss says in videos, Further, Lyle, the ohgsjcs ofmchairs and galaxies may he very differe t from the ohysjcs that giverns biology as Krauss notes on video with Closer To Truth inyerviewer….
Other methkds helped these doctors be successful with regard to administering this nasal vaccine.
TODAY TOP EXPERTS FEEL GENERAL RELATIVITY JS NOT CORRECT, NOT REALLY THE CASE. FAR DEEPER PRINCIPLES UNDERPIN IT. ROGER LENROSE CALLED Q.M, HALF BAKED THEORY.
YOUR CALORIC MODEL IS A DEAD HORSE. LEARN TO ASK THE RIGHT QUESTIONS, NIT DEFEND AN INCORRECT MODEL. EVEN THOUGH TAUBESX INSULIN MODEL IS INCOMOLETE, THIS DIES NOT MEAN THE CALORIE MODEL IS RIGHT. IT KS NEVER COMING BACK EITHER.INSULIN IS STUFF, IT CAN ACT BUT THERE IS SO MUCH MORE GENETICALKY AND HORMONALLY.
SEVERE OBESITY HAS BEEN WITNESSED IN THE MOST EXTREME DESTITTUTE PI ERTY AROUND THE WORLD. THAT IS DEVASTATING TO YOUR BEHAVIORAL MODEL, LYLE.ACCEPT IT. FEYNMAN WOUKD HAVE SEEN THIS.
In the spirit of Matt’s writings….Food fight…food fight.
There is no “obesity epidemic”. Dr. Jeffrey Friedman, himself, has seen the REAL data and said this. Obesity is a problem. However, it doesn’t rise to the level of an epidemic.
The BMI is totally erroneous and a phony diagnostic criteria. It is dressed up using mathematics, math garb, to SOUND impressive and authoritative. There is NO scientific reason to square height. Scientists know it is a joke. I have talked to physicists about using mathematics and they all note physics and biology are NOT math, math only helps physicists along. The mathematicians have done many shady TRICKS kevin Hall is doing shady tricks right now using math to model obesity – CANNOT BE DONE Biology s far too complex.
TOP physicists understand mathematical models are DIFFERENT FROM ACTUAL NATURE, REALITY,. THIS WAS STRESSED TO ME BY ONE OF THE BEST EVER- MURRAY GELL-MANN. EINSTEIN KNEW THIS, TOO. THAT IS WHY HE CALLED MINKOWSKI’S ALTERNATIVE MATHEMATICS SUPERFLUOUS ERUDITION THAT SAID NOTHING AT ALL. EINY HATED THIS GEOMETRICAL GRAVITY IDEA. . TO EINY, GRAVITY WAS A FORCE- A FORCE FIELD. YOU WILL; ALMOST NEVER HEAR THIS. YET IT WAS HIS VIEW!!!!
You are WRONGLY using a phony diagnostic criteria for obesity, Lyle, to claim an epidemic which is Friedman’s point.
There are MILLIONS of factors in all studies of live humans. The RCT do NOT AT ALL remove them. It is wishful thinking to believe RCT remove this… THOSE SATURATED FAT STUDIES COLPO TROUTS OUT ARE RATHER WEAK, TOO, AS URGHELT SAID. THEY ARE EXPLANATIONLESS,.
Urgelt made this point years ago.
See Lyle refuted in Urgelt’s comments here, people. Urgelt has ten times the brains of this Lyle guy. URGELT KNOWS WE DO NOT- NOT UNDERSTAND OBESITY AND HE DOES NOT LIE LIKE LYLE MCDONALD LIES TO BULLSHIT AUDIENCES AND SELL BOOKS.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8Zv-W7Oh4o
Debating me and URGELT ( the guy is many times brighter than charlatans like yourself) is NOT going to work out well for you, Lyle. READ URGWELT’S COMMENTS ABOUT CALORIC MODEL
Dear Lyle McC@ckle,
Insulin is important, it is a hormone and can act. Carbon, not joules or calories or mega-cycles (all the same) is also important. But genetics, immune system (regulates fatness up to 40%), hormones trump carbon atoms. You or I could never become Manuel Uribe’s level of fatness no matter how much we tried. What is debunked is the caloric model. Even if not very common, we DO observe true, severe obesity in abject, extreme destitute poverty areas of the world and this is INCREASING WORLDWIDE!. That is the ultimate test. This observations alone tell us there is something very wrong with the popular view. As Urgelt notes, there is VERY LITTLE SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE FOR YOUR BEHAVIORAL MODEL. Is insulin model incomplete? Yes. Many more hormones (undiscovered even)are likely involed. But fat cells are GOVERNED BY H O R M O N E S, which are STUFF, UNLIKE ” energy.”
.I have the full support of LHC physicists. Matter and energy are NOT AT ALL related.
Urgelt told me you and Krieger and Aragon have NOT refuted Gary Taubes or Dr. Attia, not by a country mile.
One more thing, McDonald:
Inverse fermions, mega-cycles, calories-these are entirely arbitrary inventions, needless fictions physicists use to measure something, itself, fictitious.Feynman laughed and was frstrated we use soooo many units. He said we only need one common unit.
Your article about me is a joke. I am here to defend myself and give you a proper lashing. You are FAILING to grasp that not only are calories not a physical object, theynare NOT AT ALL like radio waves or light etc, nebulous invisible entities. No, these units, caloroes, joules, inverse fermions DO NKT EXIST WHATSIEVER, THEY ARE NOT A N Y T H I N G WHATSOEVER, PERIOD. FICTION. Furthermore EN3RGY IS NOT ANYTHING WHATSOEVER.
STOP likening energy to invisible intangible nebulous stuff or entity like radiation. NO, THAT IS NKT WHAT ENERGY IS , NOR WHAT CALORIES ARE.
Radiation is NOT energyand Dr. Strassler debunks your butt.
Quantum fields are mathematical models, guy. This does not mean they all actually exist despite that we can use measurements. I talked to THE BEST OF THE BEST.
Lyle,
You, Aragon, Colpo, Guyenet, Krieget, Helms, Fell,and the rest of the Taubes bashers are all easily dismissed through using Google searcg engine and typing in phrases such as “Obesity and fat cell hoarding”, “Obesity adipocyte dysregulation”.
Taubes did something great in that he brought attention to the erroneous calorie idea. Forget his replacement model. See the big picture, McDonald. You are just like a bullhorn zealot fundamentalist preacher cult leader, your very expression reveals this : “calorie deniers”.
What the HELL is that? You are laghable. There is a mountain of observations AGAINST the calorie model. You ignore it to keep a cherished belief alive.
You are like those stuck around 1909 who call others “Bohr’s planetary atom model deniers”. Physicists rightfully rejected the planetary model because they LEARNED IT’S WRONG. WE ALSO LEARNED THE CALORIE MODEL IS VERY WROBG. The model was WRONG. By Feynman’s era they knew this and before….IT’S CALLED NEW INSIGHT, LYLE.
Science itself rests on assumptions and significant subjectivity. Humans interpret results as well as JUDGE WHAT TO PAY ATTENTION TO VERSUS IGNORE. FEYNMAN NOTED THAT LAST PART.WE NEED TO ASSUME LOGIC IS VALID FOR ONE. A FEW MORE ASSUMPTIONS ARE NEEDED. EVERYTHING HAS BIAS. NEUTRALITY IS A TOTAL MYTH. WE CAN EVEN UNDERSTAND CONSCIOUSNESS REMOTELY, WHAT IS NE ESSARY TO EVEN DO RESEARCH. YOU ARE ASKING NONE OF THE RIGHT QUESTIONS. TAUBES IS, SAYS DAVID GROSS.YOU AND GUYENET CAN STOP BASHING TAUBES. HE HAS DONE MUCH MORE THAN ANY OF YOUR CLAN.
You and Guyenet are NOT svientists at all.
The planetary model is WRONG. Noting that is NOT denial, Lyle….
Feynman said we are trying to prove our guessed laws , theories and models WRONG AS FAST AS POSSIBLE
Clarence Bass admitted to me he was not on my level of understanding the details. I thought that was mighty nice of him. Most people cannot understand the nuances and subtleties of energy, an abstract mathematical FICTION.
Is there a reliable test for vitamin A level?
No. Blood levels mean little, except that higher levels have actually been correlated with something like 7 times increase in hip fractures in the elderly. Retinol is unstable and thus the liver quickly stores it away. Perhaps a liver biopsy could be used, but that sounds intrusive. It’s better to check chronic vitamin A toxicity symptoms and see if there are matches (of which autoimmune diseases share several, which is why I think the theory has merit).
Anyone ever heard of the Potato Hack? You eat just white potatoes for three days at a time. People report weightloss (not surprising), but stuff like achy joints and snoring and other inflammatory issues decrease also. The author of the potato hack book also found some old historical evidence where people thrived on literally just white potatoes.The humble spud actually has an impressive nutritional profile, except for vitamin A, of which it has almost none. Perhaps some support for the theory. Plus, I would love to see an autoimmune vegan try it and see what happens.
The same could be said about Klempner’s “Rice Diet” Dr. McDougall often refers to…
The rice diet is high in fruits and vegetables. It’s not just a diet of rice and rice alone.
Don’t forget the part about Kempner whipping his non-compliant patients with a riding crop! That alone would have made the diet worthwhile! Um, what I *meant* to say is that behavior was outrageous and unacceptable!
ROFLMAO
Indeed, the “Potato Hack” is a familiar topic with many of Matt’s regular readers.
Several months ago, I listened to Penn Jillette’s book “Presto!: How I Made Over 100 Pounds Disappear and Other Magical Tales” and it was interesting and funny. (Penn narrated the book.) Penn’s diet guru was/is Ray Cronise – whom Penn affectionately calls “Cra-Ray.”
Personally, I have no interest in following it. I’ve had enough obsessive/restrictive dieting that led to being paranoid about “good” and “bad” foods – something that’s improved, but still lurks in the corners of my mind. For Penn, though, it seems to have served its purpose very well.
Vitamin A and carotene are the most researched vitamin ever. What I got from the literature in short notice: carotene is a very old biomolecule, synthesized by cyanobacteria and the entire plant kingdom. In the animal kingdom genes for carotenoid pathways are also very old and very conservative as well, not prone to mutations. Carotene is only absorbed in your gut in the presence of fat. It can be converted to animal vitamin a, retinol. But the bio-active substance is retinoic acid, which as Grant Genereaux mentions, was used for chemotherapy in cancer as well. A lot of research has been devoted to the role of retinoic acid in embryonic development. It’s a signal molecule to induce differentiation in stem cells. That role is also fulfilled in our bodies, it induces stem cells to differentiate into tissue cells. Because of its toxicity, the retinoic pathways are tightly regulated. RA can only be formed within a cell, and is attached to carrier molecules immediately. It’s intriguing that Grant and other people on a vitamin A free diet never developed deficiency symptoms. RA is detoxified in the liver and eventually excreted via the kidneys. Apparently, RA toxicity is a huge bottleneck to get rid of excess vitamin A. Retinol is stored in the liver and in adipose tissue. Adipose tissue in pigs and poultry can contain substantial amounts of vitamin a.
‘Just a toxin’ seems to simple to me. There are as many vitamin a receptors in the body as for vitamin d, which makes it a hormone, like vitamin d. It is possible that the body has other mechanisms to induce stem cell differentiation. It’s equally possible that those who benefit of vitamin a restriction are a subgroup within the population, not enough data. There might be something wrong with their retinoid pathways. Overdose by taking too much vitamin a usually heals in a couple of weeks after stopping the vitamin a pills. The topic of chronic vitamin a toxicity seems woefully underresearched.
Actually there is quite a bit on hypervitaminosis A, D etc.which are both extremely rare. In one case a Chinese fishing boat crew experienced it after eating a shark liver that delivered 2 million iu vit A. US Dispensitory shows 200,000 iu reaches toxicity after 2 months in an infant (each clears up in a few weeks as you stated). Granted, the various receptors etc you mention, the ultimate practical research is the effects of any vitamin or nutrient on disease and health. As stated, Vit A is very efficacious across the board in increasing resistance to disease & infections including cancers. Interestingly, synthetic Vit A more effective against some cancers than natural, though natural more effective against other cancers. Beta Carotine fond to INCREASE cancers when used alone, but when in combination with the full carotinoid complex, THEN lowers cancer risk as well as many other effcacies! much to say, but not here. Regards. Joe
There is the medical literature on hypervitaminosis. Dosis effect, and remedies, when intake has been too high. But so far I did not come across studies addressing mechanisms of disease where there is something wrong with carotenoid pathways. Which, incidentally, are not completely understood yet.
The fact that genes for both carotene synthesis in plants and protista and for carotene pathways in all organisms means that carotenes are probably essential for life. If it were ‘just a poison’ in all life stages, there would have been species without them, except for detoxifying pathways.
“Nothing is ever set in stone” huh! i bet if you ate a cup of gelatin and chased it with water something would set in you Stone… ;)
Hmmm. 5000 IU of Nutrisorb Vitamin A per day nearly instantly put a stop to my lifelong dry skin and eczema as well as 20 year long cystic acne. I was thinking of attempting a break anyway, so this is worth an experiment.
Hey Matt,
I appreciate that you are back on the 180 degree bandwagon. Yet wasn’t your main message to help people with their fanatacism of diets (albeit this is an elimination diet) and neurosis with food?
And why did Grant give up pork when it’s got virtually 0% DV?
I read alot of what you’ve written, the comments as well as the comments on Ray Peats forum.com site.
Considering some of the quite intellectual & well informed people who took the time to comment with contrary findings, I don’t see how you can still regard this ‘theory? as valid.
I can’t imagine a life without tomatoes & tomato sauce! Living in Germany, close to Italy, considering all of those luscious tomatoes & sauces Italians cook with, Italians should (according to this theory) all have a very high rate of autoimmune problems. Truth is that the UK & US have over DOUBLE the cases that Italy has. So I’m-ah not going to-ah give up-ah tomato-ah sauce ah!
One informed comment from mipp, that stood out for me is as follows:
I read his books a couple months ago when they were mentioned in the other thread and he didn’t really convince me. Some thougts:
– (obvious) his vitamin A elimination diet excludes most foods you can think of and doesn’t prove anything about vitamin A. You eliminate hundreds of other variables when you restrict yourself to a diet of rice and meat. I believe him when he says he cured his eczsema, but as others have already mentioned, it could be anything: dairy, certain fats, leafy vegs, gluten, food additives, anything
– it seems he never tested his own hypothesis on himself. Why not just supplement retinyl palmitate or acetate for a while and see what happens? IIRC he says somewhere he’s afraid his eczema might return or something like that
– the evidence he presents is not convincing. He spends a lot of time arguing that when Canada closed cod fishery in the 90s, it correlated with a significant drop in incidence of some auto-immune diseases. It seems to be the most significant revelation and strongest piece of evidence against vitamin A in his book. The thing is, there is not much vitamin A in cod meat. Cronometer says from 5 to 50 IU per 100g. That’s not much. Milk chocolate bar has 200.
– other dubious claims and conclusions. At one point he mentions Okinawans, how they are known for their longevity and exceptional health and suggests that it’s because their diet is low in vitamin A. In reality it is anything but. The traditional Okinawan diet is distinct from typical Asian diets in that sweet potato is a staple instead of rice. Wiki even cites daily consumption over 800g. that would be like 100,000 IU a day as beta carotene. And Genereux believes carotenoids are as evil and poisonous as retinol. Somewhere else in the book he actually even talks specifically about high consumption of sweet potato being responsible for higher rates of certain diseases in South America and among racial minorities in the US.
These are just the few things I remembered. There were some mandatory conspiracy theories involving nazi doctors and whatnot which make it difficult to take this guy seriously. There are some interesting observations too. Like those about prisoners of war and apparent lack of any signs of vitamin A deficiency. It seems we can survive without dietary vitamin A for quite a long time. I’m not sure if that means that vitamin A is toxic and should be restricted, or that it is so vital to our survival that we accumulate huge reserves in our bodies so that we can survive when food is scarce.
I have experimented with low vitamin A diet myself, first inspired by another user from this forum, then several weeks of almost complete elimination after reading about Genereux’s success with eczema. Can’t say it’s worked for me so far. My skin problems didn’t improve, dandruff returned with force. When I ate almost nothing but rice and meat my skin looked unhealthy and I had lots of tiny little bumps on my forhead. Not like typical acne lesions that I still occasionaly have, more like clogged pores or something. They disappeared when I went back to a more varied diet with eggs, some dairy etc.
Like most people Melzma, you just aren’t getting what Grant is proposing. Supplements, pharmaceuticals, and fortified foods are the most likely culprits of overloading the liver. Only THEN does vitamin A become problematic. And when in that state, absolutely all sources of vitamin A induce inflammation.
Tomatoes add to the load, but that’s a tiny part of the puzzle.
Americans consume WAY more tomatoes than Italians, BTW. https://www.indexbox.io/blog/which-country-consumes-the-most-tomato-in-the-world/
Also, dismissive attempts to point out contradictory information because of Study X or Study Y doesn’t “disprove” a theory. There are definitely some reports coming in that contradict Grant’s theory. Those are interesting, and may just provide further proof that his dramatic health changes and his dietary regimen are effective because of the removal of all allergens from the diet. Like I said in the post, most will dismiss it and attribute any benefits one has to removing dietary allergens. That may be true. But I think there’s more here than that.
This theory is very interesting to me. During my WAP days, I was eating a lot of Vitamin A foods but had issues with keratosis pilaris. Around eight years ago, when I tried eating for heat, I felt much better physically, but the KP did not improve. I recall Matt commenting on 180D “your keratosis pilaris and acne should improve if you improve your metabolism.” But even though I’m around 98 degrees, my skin issues have just gotten worse. Out of desperation from ridiculous acne over the last two years, I recently started them again: cod liver oil, and Vit A drops, along with regular time in the sun, but still no improvement.
Also, I’m wondering, if Grant’s theory just happens to work because of removing allergens from his diet, does that indicate possible metabolism issues? I thought “eating for heat” eradicated most allergen inducing symptoms.
Yes, probably from removing allergens.
I think eating for heat helps a lot of people short-term with allergies, but that could be from the increased liver size and activity during refeeding if Grant’s theory is legit.
Just a quickie, NOT to get into the tomato ting, but while tomatoes are VERY healthy & great supply of Lycopene very important for brain, prostate and many other things, SOME people can react negatively to the SKIN & SEEDS and since it’s a nightshade, can cause depression and inflammation IN SOME PEOPLE! So “peeled” tomatoes are an option, but it’s an individual matter.
As a Harvard trained Medical Nutritionist, this is by far he dumbest & worst item on nutrition I’ve ever read! Personally, I’ve been taking many vitamins & nutrients among them 25,00-50,000 iu vitamin A for about 55 years, more if I get a cold which happens about every 15 years! This is an irresponsible, trash article designed to instill fear enough to buy a junk book devoid of “SCIENTIFIC” fact! It’s completely contrary to my clinical experience with my patients of over 50 years & thousands of studies! Vit A prevents disease, increases the immune system, prevents & fights infections, lowers cancers of many kinds, speeds healing & is a first line of defense in health as it strengthens epithelial tissue, which blood cells etc. This stupid irresponsible article to sell a stupid, irresponsible book will harm anyone who believes it and is morally criminal!
The book is free fancy pants nutrition boy. You should check it out instead of just writing things that make you sound almost as retarded as Walter Willett.
A sarcastic reply to a scientific one. Unfortunate, but reveals your entirely unscientific & unprofessional nature. The options are 1) the writer is seeking attention 2) the writer is seeking to accumulate email addresses 3) the writer will sell items within the book or by use of accumulated email addresses 4) the writer is part of the pharmaceutical company’s propaganda against nutrition 5) the writer is simply malevolent & pernicious 6) the writer believes what he wrote and is simply ignorant.
Hi Joe,
You’re missing the point. Most people considering the low VitA diet would have already gone the conventional route, including high doses of VitA that you have mentioned. You being so scientific and all, I’m sure you’ve heard of Einstein say ?The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results?.
If you read Grant’s book you’ll realize his theory only applies for when your liver is saturated with VitA and is unable to store anymore. Perhaps you haven’t reached there yet, but it certainly sounds like you might soon…
Awww, poor Joe. His whole life’s work debunked by an engineer. Look at all this butthurt and Alex Jones-like conspiracy being hurled around. I can see clearly that you didn’t read the books because:
1) They are free
2) Doesn’t require an email address to access
3) He isn’t selling anything or promoting anything as an affiliate, nor am I
4) He’s not from the pharmaceutical industry, lol… If so they need to fire him immediately over the contentious things he wrote about them, particularly Accutane
5) He’s not the least bit malevolent or pernicious
6) He doesn’t fully believe what he wrote, and is eager for the general public to validate or invalidate his theory through trials
Man Joe, it must be hard to learn new things when you already THINK you know every fucking thing.
How do you explain all the people eating zero vitamin A diets without developing any of the problems you think you need vitamin A to combat? Riddle me that one Harvard boy!
Hey, Joe? Where ya goin’ with that carrot in your hand?
Hey Joe, I said where you going with that carrot in your hand?
I’m going down to see my old lady.
You know I saw her with peeled tomatoes in a can.
Haha best reply matt It is so sad when people think they know everything and are incapable of examining their beliefs. But then again, Harvard trained nutritionists already know everything, which is why everyone who takes their advice are in perfect health with zero diseases.
@Joe Carrington: you do realize that nutrition science is currently a pathetic failure right? It can’t even answer simple questions like “what should i eat?” and “how to lose weight?”, not to mention the massive corruption of nutrition scientists taking money from corporations to shill for products or bury damning data (say, wasn’t it Harvard nutritionists who took money from the sugar industry to cover up research on how sugar increased heart disease?)
I wish this blogging platform had a Thumbs-Up button!!
You likely cannot even grasp that “calories” are fictiinal, just as fictiinal, invenyed and arbitrary as inverse fermions or mega cycles…, Calories are entirely fictitious, arbitrary and not intrinsic to food. Most nutritionists cannot grasp energy. I was educating even the smug Yale medical doctor David Katz who thought lighning was “energy.”.Laughable! If only the public knew how physics illiterate the medical profession is.
We do not have any clue of the optimal diet, Joe.
Hey Matt, Just to be sure as I’m dutch and the language barrier is creating any distortion in the message;
You tell eating liver gave the mentioned Miss Anderson the health problems again? Because of the vitamin a. Or did this kind of vitamin a gave no problems in her case?
Interesting article! I always do real well when eating my grass fed liver, but feel I’m “over taxed” the next day(s).
Yes, here is a comment about it…
On organ meats:
I grew up loving organ meats, but as I started unmasking foods (especially when I gave up all vegetation), I noticed inflammation with organ meats. My body didn’t tolerate them well. So, I listened as I did with everything else. I know organs have mega doses of nutrients, but ribeye has just what I need in the perfect amounts.
She also noted ill effects from grassfed beef, and sticks to supermarket, grain-fed beef with pure white fat.
That is a funny line…when I gave up vegetation…..very strange diet…seems too extreme and a recipe for an eating disorder which she could have.
If her and her husband have an eating disorder, then I want one too! Seriously man. Tom Brady and Giselle won’t look nearly as good as these people when they’re their age.
Sounds like what many people say, I want an eating disorder….go for it.
Tom Brady doesn’t look that good NOW.
But But But… TB12!
BTW, this was the list of her health problems before developing her “eating disorder.” I would argue continuing to eat a diet that causes you all these problems is an eating disorder in some sense…
“I had worsening fatigue (I fell asleep everywhere ? at work, in the car while driving, etc), depression (several plans of suicide), mental confusion, brain fog, paralysis/numbness in limbs (Joe had to carry me out of work a number of times), extreme eczema on hands (like 2nd degree burns), neck and face, continued amenhorrea (lack of periods), cervical dysplasia, Degenerative Disc Disease (couldn’t sit ? worked standing up, constant sciatic nerve pain), continued weight gain (50 pounds overweight at my heaviest), muscle twitches (over 100 twitches in a minute’s time), personality change (from laid back to full of rage), and on and on?”
Damn, I’m not as bad as her but seem to be on the same trajectory ‘O’
What if this guy is particularly sensitive to vitamin A?
What about the countries that don’t fortify milk with vitamin a? I’m in New Zealand and they don’t do that here. Don’t think they fortify cereal with it either.
Perhaps it adds to the whole toxic overload for some people but there could still be others who don’t get enough?
I’ve got keratosis pilaris (stupid skin thing) I’ve just started supplementing with (a low dose of) vitamin a as I’ve heard a deficiency in vit a can cause this.
Perhaps i’ll rethink doing that.
*sigh* why must food and nutrition be so confusing
Plenty of Vitamin A fortified foods in Zealand sweetcakes… https://www.foodsafety.govt.nz/elibrary/industry/Fortification_Overages-Measuring_Actual.pdf
Watch out for that margarine!
Can’t stand margarine. Did turn orange from eating too much pumpkin as a baby though… ????
Some guy said he got rid of keratosis pilaris by eating liver but chicken didn’t work only beef liver. Reckons it’s the copper rather than the vitamin a?
It is more like a hormone. If it were a vitamin, we would not be able to create it from the actual vitamin/precursors found in plants. Ray Peat is so wrong about many things, including PUFAs, fiber and phytoestrogens. Just by researching whole food studies we can see that even omega 6 rich nuts lower inflammation and improve weight loss, compared to saturated fats. Peat suggested otherwise. Ahh yes, I can only imagine how many people reading this will be triggered right now, “um, erm what about the, um, rat studies from 1902″… XD
“rat studies from 1902” lol. Those same people would dismiss a 2014 RCT human trial with a thousand subjects as “too old LMAO
Lots of “passionate” comments on this post!
Hey Matt. As someone who suffers with acne and never had it before I started experimenting with Ray Peats ideas this is very interesting.
I have taken vitamin A and also eaten liver and everytime my acne gets worse. The only thing that seems to eliminate my acne is the sun and tanning beds. I am going to try this elimination diet and see how things go.
One question, why do you think with some people who suffer with acne and take lots of vitamin A and see acne clear up and then come back when they cease use of the supplement?
High enough supplementation might basically be mimicking Accutane. The retinol levels get so high it begins to destroy the sebaceous glands in the skin (no glands, no acne). Or maybe it’s retinoic acid that Accutane quickly turns into, I can’t recall the specifics at the moment (Grant covers it in detail in one of the books). So, you indeed get results, but that also puts the rest of the body at great risk, as the staggering side-effect list of Accutane makes clear since one must assume body-wide effects are happening and not just skin effects. Accutane doses are so large in such a short window (it’s something like 2 or 3 million IUs of retinol in a couple months), that this is well beyond what the liver can bind away, so it will assuredly go elsewhere, including the skin (as intended). I suspect the body preferably tries to excrete it to the skin, as it is safer to cause damage there than the brain and other vital organs, but given the horror stories of Accutane, for some it obviously damaged other places in their body (this is well documented…it carries a black box warning for a reason).
In your case, you probably took just enough to start messing up the stem cells and glands in the skin (but not enough to basically nuke the glands all together), and started getting some clogged pores. Grant suspects retinol might be behind acne in the first place. When you go tan, that might create vitamin D, which weakly binds to the same retinol receptors, and thus may limit it’s harm. Grant suspects this is the real reason people found success with vitamin D therapy. He personally did not increase his vitamin D (he lives in Canada somewhere, so not much UVB), which was good on him to control that variable. I am also curious if certain light wavelengths could break down retinol. If we could find that, we could put this hypothesis to the test in short order. The benefits of red light and near-infrared make me wonder if something is going on there with retinol.
I’m reading Extinguishing the Fires of Hell, and he mentions that over-consumption of vitamin A leads to cytokine release. I’m also reading The Potbelly Syndrome, and that author mentions that cytokine release increases cortisol. Could be a link there?! Things that make you go, hmmmmm?
Vitamin A deficient diet is also a deuterium depleted diet.
Beans, rice, beef; seem ok to me. Plus there are lot’s of other low Vit A and Vit A pre-cursor foods.
Rice and beef are my go-to safe foods when m ?IBS? acts up.
I’ll give this a try to see if my joint pain, bowels, and memory improve; I mean why not!
3000 cals is always my target. Burgers and beer are always my friends.
So for all the people that want to try this diet, I think we should put together a list of foods containing no or low VitA.
I have found so far:
– Beef muscle meat (preferably grain fed)
– Tilapia fish
– Certain starches: Rice, wheat, oats, potatoes, corn
– Certain legumes: Peanuts, white beans
– Coconut
– Honey + Maple syrup
– Natto
– Apple cider vinegar
– Soy Sauce
– Coffee
– Sodas
– Apple juice
– Beer, Vodka, Whiskey,etc.
– Mushrooms
– Egg whites
– Oils
– Salt
– Sugar
I created a list of hundreds of foods and their vitamin A content–from lowest to highest. Matt linked to it in his original post.
Great Jeanne, thank you.
I just saw yellow tomatoes on your list, spaghetti with sauce is in the game again. Cauliflowers have no VitA either when it comes to veggies btw.
Really hope this theory has some basis because with all the foods allowed it appears to be the most fun elimination diet ever.
I found a commercially produced pasta sauce made with yellow tomatoes from the Sunshine Tomato Co. (sunsinepastasauce.com). Unfortunately, the ingredients also include red and green peppers. No way of knowing how much is in the sauce but it could raise the Vit. A content too high. Wonder if we all contacted the company and asked them to produce plain yellow tomato puree or paste, if they would do it.
Thanks so much, Matt, for posting this information. And kudos to Grant for his groundbreaking work on this theory.
I read Grant’s three books and have been thinking about this theory a lot. It all fits. Mind blown.
If Grant’s theory is correct, then long term LCHF folks that include dairy, high Vit A seagood & spps, and copious veggies could be in a world of pain.
It’s interesting that many LCHF?ers remove dairy from their diets and notice improvement.
Something to chew on (if it hasn’t already come up).
Also, low vit D and high vit A is likely correlated to SAD (seasonal affective disorder); which could open up interest in investigating causation.
Armed with this novel new theory, I’ve been looking at the evidence from a different viewpoint. It does looks like this is some toxic sh*t once the liver is full (and maybe before with man made chemicals like retinyl palmitate).
Just one random study I found:
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php'script=sci_arttext&pid=S0001-37652015000301361
The neurotoxic effects of vitamin A and retinoids
In the conclusion: “…it would be catastrophic if an individual with history of neurodegenerative disease in the family exceeds vitamin A intake through either supplement use or clinical administration”.
Wow Billy, that analysis REALLY lines up with Grant’s research and experience, right down to bulging fontanelle!
Its kind of disheartening to see that even after more than 10 years of intensively investigating and discarding pretty much every alternative health theory ever conceived of, the search for a single magic bullet goes on…
I’m down with it though lol, I’ve been eating a lot more Vitamin A from spinach, green veggies and liver lately, and for some reason also seen my health take a slide down again.
So if you dont want to go on a totally extreme vitamin A depleting diet, which would be the absolute worst offenders to avoid?
– Liver
– Fortified milk (dont have it where I live)
– Egg yolks
– Cheese
– Caviar
– Seafood
– Tomato products
– Leafy greens
– Carrots
I dont get it, are carotenes just as bad as retinol in this regard? So plant sources of Vit A would be the most important to avoid since they are far more abundant than animal sources (other than liver)?
I can’t answer the plant vs. animal question for you Collden. To that list I will add other orange vegetables, pumpkin and sweet potatoes. Those are some of the highest plant sources. I think orange juice is also probably a big offender because the quantity consumed by OJ lovers is often REALLY high. I always wondered why drinking a lot of it made me hypersensitive to sunburn (burning severely in 15 minutes), even with a dark tan and previously being able to stay out in strong sunlight for an hour or two.
Carotenes are not absorbed in absence of dietary fat. Meaning that fruits and carrots are OK if consumed well before or after fat containing meals.
Another thing is that the liver is not the only storage organ for superfluous retinol. Adipose tissue is the sink of al fat soluble tissue, including carotenes and retinol. In humans, pigs and poultry it is stored preferably in subcutaneous adipose tissue. A wild speculation of mine: could retinol or its precursors/ derivatives in any way contribute to metabolic resistance? Grant mentions fat loss following vitamin a restriction. I’m experiencing the same, but there are confounders. The idea is that the body prevents fat loss in order to keep blood retinol levels under control.
Sorry, I meant fat-soluble toxins, not tissue.
Maureen Butter,
That’s exactly what I’m thinking. I have no expertise in the subject, but I’ve read before that a response to toxins of any sort is for the body to add fat in order to safely store them.
This link is helpful in understanding the conversion ratios of plant carotenes into retinol and includes interesting charts and a discussion on excessive intake, which says plant foods have not been found to contribute to vitamin A toxicity.
https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/VitaminA-HealthProfessional/
They do say, though:
“Although hypervitaminosis A can be due to excessive dietary intakes, the condition is usually a result of consuming too much preformed vitamin A from supplements or therapeutic retinoids [3,5].”
If by ‘they? you mean conventional medicine practitioners, ‘they? are talking about acute vitaminosis A. Grant and most of us here are talking about the chronic form. In other words, a lot of us are concerned that vitamin A intake (from any source) might eventually lead to chronic health problems long before a person would experience acute symptoms such as pealing skin and blindness.
Spent some time reading the long thread on this at the RayPeatforum and it seems Grant Genereux as well as many people who tried a similar vit A depleting diet after a while develop extreme sensitivities to any form of retinol. Grant was describing an episode where he got a severe arthritic reaction that took 5 months to recover from by taking some lutein.
https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/grant-genereuxs-theory-of-vitamin-a-toxicity.24722/page-17
This seems like a major red flag. If Grants theory is correct then bad reactions to Vitamin A should decrease as one becomes more depleted and one should become more tolerant to retinol-containing foods, not the opposite, or? It seems this is the same story we’ve heard a thousand times before with people having miraculous results on elimination diets.
I was wondering about that, too. If Charlene has been on a zero Vit A diet for 19 years — but has a recurrence of her eczema, asthma, etc. whenever she consumes liver…?
I do think there’s credibility to the idea that Vit A becomes toxic when our livers become saturated with it. But what I don’t understand is why Charlene would develop symptoms so quickly, since her liver wouldn’t become full of Vit A overnight.
I don’t think she’s eaten liver in 18 years. That was more how she figured out that beef was the only option. She started out eating tons of fish and such and eventually whittled it down to what made her feel the best. I don’t know what would happen if she tried to consume some now after such a long time vitamin A-free.
I think it’s really interesting, to this point, that Charlene said the few times her kids tried to eat something other than ribeye, they’ve had some sort of reaction. In her words: “When they have tried other foods, it hasn’t gone well for them.”
I wish she’d elaborate on that, I wonder what they tried to eat. It doesn’t sound right to me that young healthy kids would be having a bad reaction to a food after eating it once.
This is all super interesting as I read more about it but I don’t think I want to guinea pig myself. Plenty of people in the keto, vegan, wapf, insert crazy health fad here communities have miraculous stories of healing. I guess at least Grant’s is a little more normal in that he eats carbs.
Alexandra,
I’m not sure if it’s of any interest to you, but here are Joe and Charlene’s Twitter accounts, if you have a Twitter account and would like to contact them:
Joe: https://twitter.com/JoeCharlene8898
Charlene: https://twitter.com/HandmadeRetro88
Though I don’t have a Twitter account, I’m able to read their Twitter feeds. Joe seems to receive and answer diet-related questions on his account.
Check out this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ANiMqfSKH8
I think this doctor might be onto something. Basically, meat is structure, plants are stressors (not the carbs, but the unique compounds). Maybe us autoimmune people just can’t handle the stress from the plants worth a damn and it makes us worse, whereas healthy folks just get stronger from the challenges it imposes on the body. Maybe retinol and the carotenoids are similar (but are unique in their level of toxicity if things go awry). This would also explain how retinol benefits the eyes in certain ways IF the body can use it to its advantage. Grant is getting a bit too deep into the “it’s a poison” mindset, which I suspect is an over-simplification. There is evidence showing benefits for the eyes (I have done it myself in the past when my night vision seemed a bit worse, I would pop a 25,000 iu retinol fish oil derived softgel and then the next night it is better…was that placebo?). Grant is sort of rationalizing his way out of the beneficial evidence, which he doesn’t need to do, as he has made a solid case that TOO MUCH is the problem, not that it’s ALL a problem.
Grant said in his blog he plans 5 more years of no vitamin A, so we will not find out any time soon how he handles a reintroduction of other foods. He said somewhere he thinks it may take years to get the body to actually heal (however, he hasn’t attempted any accelerated healing methods that I am aware of, like fasting, red-light therapy, go off-grid for a week or two, Qi-going, etc). I would be most curious to see if he handled beef liver better than a plant form. Either way, reintroduction should probably be really slow and one thing at a time. Like one bite of well-cooked broccoli, not an entire bowl. Or a bit of pepper with the beef. Slowly rebuild tolerance to plant matter. I think people go too fast when they reintroduce and of course get diarrhea, back pain, acne, etc., but that might just be a shock to the system. Start in the kiddie pool, wade around until the water feels okay, then slowly edge deeper.
Evan E — interesting thoughts and worth consideration. I’m not sure what to make of this chiropractor, though. He’s 30 and healthy, so he could eat Skittles and smoke meth and get the same results. He already has a podcast, so the skeptic in me predicts that he will soon have books, supplements, and a health coaching program…
“…eat Skittles and smoke meth…”
Okay, turtlegurl, that did it. Now’s the time and Matt’s blog is the appropriate place, so I’ll just go ahead and ask:
Will you marry me? :-)
Sure, I think you’re already married, but why let some technicality like a husband and kids get in the way?
I swear, much of the time, you* seem to write what I’m thinking. While I wasn’t specifically thinking about Skittles and Meth (as far as you know), I was thinking:
“Great, another 30-something who’s lean and probably been lean and healthy most of his life. So, go wreck yourself for 40 or 50 years and then come back and tell us the magic formula.”
I also saw him promoting books and supplements for a friend of his, so that automatically lowers my opinion. That doesn’t mean he’s wrong or a bad guy, of course. But, most of us have heard a lot of this stuff over and over and over. It’s a familiar pattern – blog, YouTube, podcast, consulting, supplements, books, etc.
There’s always some new, fresh-faced kid coming down the pike to tell us old nimrods the obvious things we’ve been overlooking.
“Oh, you’re 25, have done CrossFit for two months, and been eating ‘Keto’ for three weeks. Yes, your 12-pack abs must be the result of that ‘scientific’ combination.”
Despite my frustration and rolling my eyes enough to look like a slot machine, I can only imagine what must go through Matt’s mind. Mostly, though, he takes it in stride and lets people (eventually, hopefully) reach their own epiphanies.
_____
* Well, you, Skeptic, and Matt. Perhaps we can all move to a commune in Utah.
“Will you marry me? :-) …. you, Skeptic, and Matt. Perhaps we can all move to a commune in Utah.”
Yes, Carl, I will marry you ?
Now, how does the rest of this arrangement get into place? Do I propose to Skeptic and Matt, or do you?
Is New Mexico okay? I’m currently looking for a good commune property there now.
Your acceptance confirms my suspicion of your intelligence and good judgement!
Now, as for the rest of the arrangement, it might be easier if you propose to Matt. Then, of course, he would have to propose to Skeptic. Finally, to seal the deal, Skepic would have to propose to me.
To avoid any problems with said chain of proposals, we simply all claim gender fluidity, since it’s now in the public lexicon.
Like Wile E. Coyote, I’m a genius: https://bit.ly/2Pd6QjS
New Mexico definitely works for me! I’ve only been to Albuquerque and Santa Fe, but I enjoyed both!
We’ll start our own cult. A dietary cult. Perhaps “The New Mexico Stoners.” Let’s just hope no one starts talking about the Hale Bopp Comet or drinking Kool-Aid.
I’m down with New Mexico, too!
Good idea on the arrangement of things, Carl. So now, Matt will you marry me?
A cult sounds perfect. Nothing ever goes sideways with those. Yes, we’ll beware of conversations about Kool-Aid. Or Nikes.
lol I’ll join the cult only if you guys agree to build a 20 foot statue of Gary Taubes at the entrance, holding a copy of Good Calories, Bad Calories in one hand and a Bullet Proof coffee in the other, while a vanquished Ancel Keys lies at his feet.
Can do, on the statue.
Skeptic, you must have been surprised, to say the least, when you read the blog and found out that:
1) you’re moving to New Mexico,
2) you’re going to be in a polygamous marriage,
3) all of this is with people you’ve never met.
You seem to be taking it all in stride, though.
I like that quality in my husbands ;)
@Alexandra: I don’t buy this “the Anderson kids are TOTALLY LOVING this diet that allows only one food” narrative. Bullshit. Have you ever met a kid that doesn’t love candy or ice cream? I also find the they tried some other foods but didn’t fare too well part. Kids have amazing health and god-like digestion. It was probably emotional blackmail from the parents that manipulated the kids into abandoning the other foods and going back to the diet. I guarantee you one thing: once those kids are teens and have their own income, they’re gonna go on a carb and sugar binge so epic that would put Durianrider into a diabetic coma!
I think one of the reasons the Andersens are quite reserved and quiet about their diet is they get a lot of “that’s child abuse” flack thrown their way every time they do. And death threats from vegans, but who the hell doesn’t get death threats from vegans?
@Evan: he’s not a doctor he’s a chiropractor lol, all these zerocarb gurus are chiropractors, probably because you can go take a 4 week course at your local shopping mall “college” and then pretend to be a “doctor” for that sweet appeal to authority fallacy
Skeptic,
As when I was revisiting the topic of hair analysis (mentioned in a different comment), I was reading the blog of a proponent. When I started looking for information on her education, I found her listed on this website:
http://FakeDoctorate.blogspot.com
Scrolling through the pages, I saw several other “experts” that I’ve seen over the years. I didn’t finish going through all the pages, but I’m sure many other popular gurus would appear.
I wouldn’t be surprised, if Jonny Bowden and Gary Null appeared on the list, too. Perhaps Eric Berg and Josh Axe, too. I recall “Dr.” Axe talking about essential oils and the Bible. He made a comment about essential oils being used on Mary, after her giving birth, to reduce stretch marks.
I’d never be able to fabricate stuff this good!
@Carl: wow I don’t remember reading that in the Bible lol
“Dr” Berg is definitely a chiropractor, and so is Dr. Axe.
“Dr.” Axe on essential oils:
https://youtu.be/wO59q1o18hE't=2m38s
Well, if it’s good enough for Mary…
Essential oils probably deplete Vitamin A stores, too. I use them on potatoes, as they mysteriously (divinely?) turn potatoes into a zero-carb food. You can also use certain oils on ribeye steaks, in order to “balance” the nutrient profile. The oils also unclog toilets, remove rust, substitute for engine oil, repel bears, enable X-ray vision, and prevent poltergeists.
@skeptic haha, I totally agree. I’m counting down the days until the anderson kids (and vegan raised kids/paleo kids, etc) get some real independence and go nuts on some sugar. I love that she says they have total autonomy to eat whatever they want, but how are they supposed to do that when there is only ribeye and water in the house? I doubt they’re driving to the local ice cream parlor whenever the kids ask.
Anyway, I am happy for them if it’s truly working for them. I just think there must be a better way than ONLY EAT RIBEYE for your entire life.
I’m definitely going to monitor my vitamin a intake for myself and daughter though. I do let my daughter have total autonomy over what she eats (she’s almost 3) and most of the time it’s fruit, milk or apple juice and then she usually wants a big dinner of noodles w meat sauce or a hotdogs and hashbrowns. She also loves butter and will ask to eat coconut oil straight out of the jar with a spoon. I really find it so fascinating what she chooses.
That’s good, your daughter won’t have a messed up relationship with food like some of us lol
“I recall Dr. Axe talking about essential oils and the Bible. He made a comment about essential oils being used on Mary, after her giving birth, to reduce stretch marks.”
Oh yes, I remember that part of the Bible. It’s right before the part where they talk about Mary & Joseph drinking kombucha and doing planks.
Matt — any luck with finding some sweet-ass property in New Mexico for our commune?
I’ve already ordered one of these “Spiritual As Hell” t-shirts (seriously). There’s a men’s version, too, so I thought maybe you, Carl, Skeptic and I could all wear matching ones in the official photos of us breaking ground at said commune:
http://omgvip.tunestub.com/product.cfm?id=1516813
Nice! Still working on it. Went to a farmer’s market and got hard-sold some alpaca yarn by a shaky old white lady with a mustache. She was trying to convince me that Taos would be a way better place to live. More spiritual I’m certain. She was spiritual as hell.
Maybe the sign over the commune entrance could combine that slogan with Carl’s idea for the cult name —
The New Mexico Stoners: Spiritual as Hell
Spiritual AF would probably more in line with hip, new lingo.
Matt — funny you say that. I’ve seen JP in his vids wearing shirts that say “Spiritual AF”, along with “Loving AF” and “Woke AF”.
How about a combo platter for our sign?
“The New Mexico Stoners: Spiritual, Loving, & Woke AF”
That’s my biggest concern too. Being walled off into a tiny dietary corner that you can’t escape from is far from an ideal solution. So it will be interesting to see if the same heightened, lasting sensitivity happens to others as well.
I’m hoping that by reducing, rather than eliminating Vitamin A, I don’t run into heightened sensitivity. It might take much longer to straighten out my A status, but I don’t have any issues that I consider to be “auto immune.” I’m just fat.
Matt,
I thought that you were right on the money that any food you avoid for a while will cause problems introducing it back in…carbs, proteins, meat, sugar, etc. It might be the same for A. There also might be other changes that were made that were beneficial besides the A avoidance.
Upregulating vitamin A receptors would be a normal physiologic response to a-deprivation. It’s entirely reversible. But that is not what happened when Grant tried the lutein supplement. Lutein is not converted to vitamin a or retinoic acid. It is more likely that Grant developed huge immune reactions to anything remotely carotene-like when his body fought the cells affected by retinoic acid. It’s a food intolerance reaction, rather than heightened vitamin a sensitivity. Food intolerance or food allergies can stick around much longer.
I would think that just focusing on eliminating added vitamin A, and I suspect other man made vitamins (fortified food, vitamin supplements, etc.), would be enough to start with. The last thing you want to do is to box yourself into a corner with unnecessary dietary restrictions. People taking things to unnecessary extremes is usually what gets them into trouble.
EmmaW, I think you are probably right.
I was thinking the same thing about vitamin A supplements and fortified foods but after 2 months of experimentation I’m afraid even naturally occurring A might be a problem for me.
I do eat a much more varied diet than Mr. Genereux where basically anything low-no vitamin A besides gluten (celiac) is on the menu. Sadly just 2 eggs over the weekend set me back with intense joint pain and severe mucous membrane dryness. It seems to be improving going zero A the last couple of days but the orange tint to my skin that was getting better seemed to worsen again. I also had some tamales with red sauce so that might be another factor.
I’m going to try to stay as low in A as possible without getting overly restrictive or going hungry.
Wearing shirts and hats instead of suntan lotion is a great idea. So is 12 mg/day of astaxanthin, which gets more omegas in your system.
Omegas increase sunburn sensitivity.
You should check out astaxanthin which may be a super carotene. unfortunately I got this information from a book published by a astaxanthin manufacturer. The right form of astaxanthin gets around the body much better than other forms of astaxanthin and other antioxidants. The inferior forms astaxanthin made from petroleum and yeast. The right form of astaxanthin performs well in the brain, nerves, and gums. It has reversed some cancer.
Interesting video linked here about how plants can go from friend to foe. This is starting to make sense of conflicting data and why it just depends how each person responds to food. Is retinol the same story, but goes uber bad once the body is irritated by it? https://youtu.be/isIw2AN_-XU
Woah, so he’s saying all the micronutrients that the carnivore diet is lacking in are also coincidentally exactly the ones that you need less of on a zero carb diet?! Wow! What a miraculous piece of serendipity! It’s almost as if someone retconned this bullshit explanation to neatly do away with the gaping lack of micronutrients in the carnivore diet. I’ve heard this excuse before from carnies, but I’ve never seen any science on it (a ten second clip from a Masterjohn podcast doesn’t count)
Citing Bruce Ames is disingenuous because Ames is a HUGE supporter of eating tons of fruits and veg, and even supplementing micros.
The data on fiber is pretty murky, but there are some meta-analyses that show promise for soluble fiber vs. bran (insoluble). https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25070054
I like how he mostly talks about grains and veg in the “plants don’t want to be eaten” section while mysteriously not talking about fruit, you know, the plants that WANT YOU TO EAT THEM. Lectins, or lectin like proteins such as Casein, are also present in dairy and grain fed beef… Also, goddamn Blue Zones. If you can’t explain the Blue Zones, your theory isn’t worth shit.
p.s. I’m not directing this at you Evan just ranting at the video
Matt, if you are going to use the Andersen family’s amazing health on a carnivorous diet as proof for this Vitamin A theory, then it’s also proof that what you’ve been writing for the past 7 years is, uh, flawed, don’t you think? Not sure you can have it both ways.
To be clear, this isn’t a dig at you. I’m just curious how you are processing this. It’s one thing to get short-term symptom remission from an extremely restrictive, zero-carb elimination diet, which is common. It’s another for two people to experience great health on it for almost two decades, along with their children. It’s kind of hard to believe, to be honest.
Yes, VERY flawed.
But if I’ve learned anything over the years, it’s that if I see someone having great results doing something, I’m guaranteed to NOT get results anything like that if I try it! haha
“…if I see someone having great results doing something, I’m guaranteed to NOT get results anything like that if I try it!”
That’s weird.
Because as JP Sears says, “If it works for me, it’ll work for you…because we’re different people.”
I don’t see many thriving on long term vegan diets
I’m beginning to think what we’re looking for isn’t there. You try to put together a list of “good foods” based on consensus, and you won’t get very far.
OK, you think, surely a list of “bad foods” is more doable? Nope. Fructose? Fruitarians and Peatards would beg to disagree. Red meat and/or cholesterol? Carnivores. Saturated fat? Keto.
That didn’t work. Let’s look at who is thriving and what diet do they eat. Guess what, there’s people thriving on anything from Vegan to Carni and anything in between. So everything works I guess?
So what do we even know at this point? Don’t overeat or under-eat I guess?
Is there any consensus at all at this point? I think the last one was vegetables but that’s gone now. If you were to abandon every nutrition theory and try to restart from the ground up, what would be the solid base to build on, something everyone can agree on?
I’ve wondered what would happen if one of us got plucked from our current lives and then transplanted into other environments – say, someplace tropical near the equator. Or, perhaps with a tribe of Bushmen in Australia. Or, Greece, or France.
If we had to live in the same environment (no air conditioning or hot water, perhaps), did the same physical tasks (walking, farming, etc.), and ate the same foods, would we finally experience a shift in our health?
I’m betting we would. It might be a little or a lot, but I bet something would change.
Live without the internet?! I’m out lol
But seriously, don’t think that the physical activity associated with their life is gonna save you. People who study hunter gatherers have found they burn the same amount of calories as we do.
“We found that despite all this physical activity, the number of calories that the Hadza burned per day was indistinguishable from that of typical adults in Europe and the United States. ”
https://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/26/opinion/sunday/debunking-the-hunter-gatherer-workout.html
“Live without the internet?! I’m out lol”
hahaha. Me, too, man. It was purely hypothetical. I’m not ready to part with YouTube.
That hunter-gatherers burn the same number of calories (carbon, for my buddy Razzle Dazzle) as we do is surprising to me. Wow. I’d never have guessed that.
I was thinking about all of it, really. Not just the activity, but living where and how they live. The same exposures to food, bacteria, temperatures, etc. The whole enchilada, so to speak. Mmmm, enchiladas. :-)
I highly doubt that using exercise to burn caloriea is a useful strategy.
I think that the main use of exercise is to maintain muscle mass and improve insulin sensitivity through glycogen depletion and increased storage capacity.
Increased muscle mass would require additional calories for maintanence.
Doug McGuff has written about this in his “body by science” workout book.
Is McGuff still a Low-Carb Paleo guy? I watched a lecture of his, in the summer of 2010 or 2011, but nothing since. I just scanned his website, but found no diet information – just paid consultations, book sales, workshops, and speaking engagements.
No idea about his diet. He had some interesting info about workout routines, mostly about high intensity being more beneficial than steady state cardio.
I don’t think that he is any kind of nutrition guru.
Right. High-intensity training has been around for a while. Arthur Jones was advocating it in the 1970s.
Everything that works is old. Name one effective health strategy that hasn’t been around since forever.
Checked out Arthur Jones. Yes, that’s the stuff. McGuff even pushes nautilus machines.
Peobably just a reaction to all the people running on treadmills and not touching weights. These things seem to go in cycles.
Yup McGuff is a low carb Paleo grains are evil type of guy, but he does have some good ideas on exercise. He says while some genetic freaks and/or juicers require much faster, normal people actually take 6-7 days to recover and rebuild a muscle, so to exercise more than that is like repeatedly hitting the call elevator button after you’ve already hit it once. It can also lead to inflammation if you push the volume too hard.
So the solution is to do ONE full body workout a week. So far I agree, but then he goes on to say it must be very intense and to failure, and that’s where the machines come in, so you can push the intensity safely. His workouts are very weird, kind of like the Casey Viator or Mike Mentzer stuff that Tim Ferris later pushed in the “Four Hour Body”.
*recover much faster
I used to do the type of high-intensity training that McGuff talks about — and I hope to be able to do it again. I only trained once a week.
The hardest part, for me, was overcoming the natural instinct to NOT go to failure, to not empty my muscles. There was always a sort of panic, deep in my brain, that I had to learn to ignore.
Hi Skeptic, I hope I am not being redundant because I have not had a chance to read every single comment yet ( I’m impulsive), but, I have been trying to figure out how to eat for myself, my son with the serious health problems ( actually, I have another son here who is not too well also), and my husband who I hope to help keep alive for a long time to come. So, we have tried lots of approaches and often several different ones at one time ( one for him, one for me and my problems etc..). I sometimes say I hate food. I used to love to cook, now preparing food is a nightmare. I live at the grocery and can’t even bear to look at how much I spend. Anyway, I am a Christian and in all I do I do apply biblical principles as best I can. The earth is groaning in its age and we, as people, are sicker and sicker as time goes by. So, though all these foods we talk about were given to us by God to eat we are at a place where so many of us just can’t eat like we were initially intended to eat. So, many of us have to try all these diets and though it can create orthorexia I suppose, I don’t feel that it has in me. I don’t expect perfection and I know health is about more than food, but food is a big part of it. Now, finally, to my point. I think we need a bit of everything and if we can’t tolerate don’t give up trying. That we should try to eat when our bodies tell us to and stop when we begin to feel full or soon after ( what a loaded subject, intuitive eating. I take bits here and there from people who practice it, but we all have to find our way ). I realize with eating disorders they need to eat a lot while working on healing, so I don’t mean this for them. I do believe over -eating changes how food affects us and it can be negatively so. For me, when I eat what I want in moderation I don’t feel so bad, but when I eat stuff I don’t need because I am stressed or stuck studying and looking for a key to open this prison cell we live in, my problems worsen. And I go for stuff that is not helpful. I am so weird – looking for health and cooking all these respectable ( to someone or some group) foods and then I go cuckoo on some junk that someone managed to get in the door. I am working on putting off eating at night for a little while and I have managed to make it to bed without eating more often. I am not against all emotional eating, though, either. For me, I have to have a food available that gives me a fighting chance – not too bad or too good. If we are stressed we probably should eat, but not so much and that is the hard part for people like me. So, yeah, I think how much we eat is as important as what we eat. Sorry I am so long winded today!!
Oh Skeptic, I am sorry to have to speak some more, But I wanted to explain that the reason I mentioned the Bible etc… was because while I/we can’t eat everything we were intended to eat long ago when we humans were so fresh I can heed the many scriptures that talk about gluttony and the result of it.
I hope I didn’t miss this if it was mentioned, but what about arsenic in the rice? We have a very sick son who, after eating rice nearly daily for about 3 yrs and some more refined products 7 yrs prior to that due to a gluten free diet, showed high arsenic levels on a hair analysis test. We retested after stopping rice for about 8 months and it came down, though it was still high. I can see some don’t feel hair testing is relevant and probably in some things it isn’t, but what about this one?
Probably best to be cautious about rice in that circumstance. Plenty of other things can be eaten besides rice on a vitamin A depletion diet.
@Joanie: Dr Greger did a whole bunch of videos on arsenic in rice on YouTube (pissed off a lot of Vegans lol). If you don’t feel like watching them, here’s the TL;DR: rice from the Southern United States is the worst, because it all used to be cotton fields down there and they used a lot of arsenic to get rid of boll weevils. Californian rice is better. Bangladeshi rice is almost as bad as the South. Indian and Thai rice were the best from what I recall.
You should avoid rice flour products because they concentrate way more arsenic than if you were just eating plain rice. There are also cooking methods that can reduce arsenic in rice, like the “pasta method” of cooking rice where you fill a big pot with a whole bunch of water, like an 8/1 ratio of water to rice, so the arsenic goes into the water and then you dump the water.
Thanks for your 2 cents. I am eating it, but I am known for failing diets frequently. But at least today I found tri beans, Lundberg rice, a bit of beef, and a touch of olive oil ( oh and salt) very tasty and satisfying.
I was thinking what if this vitamin A stuff applies to other vitamins too? What if we’re high in all of them and they’re toxic. Every day you see an article saying vitamin XYZ is not a vitamin but a hormone, or it’s not a thing we need at at all, or it’s poison. Do we even know anything anymore?
One clue is to look at the vitamin label and see what percentage of the daily requirement is in the supplement.
I think the amount of B vitamins in supplements is generally insane. One example – Solgar B-Complex 100: B2 is 5882%. This is NOT healthy, in my opinion and experience.
The only exception to high B doses I’ve found is for B12. Over many years I’ve gravitated to 1000mcg 3x/week.
lol yeah I’ve noticed that. And most people have vitamin “stacks” where they’ll take a multivitamin, then specific ones like B-complex, then drink a Nutrigreen shake and then eat vegetables throughout the day!
Our son is horribly ill with seizures, reactive hypoglycemia ( if treated has true hypoglycemia), an inability to increase his metabolism without kicking seizures into high gear, and cannot eat much fat at all – no saturated fat ( like about 4-6g per 6 meals a day), almost no meat and must have low protein. The only fat he seems to tolerate is olive oil, but not too much. But because no diet really helps him enough to let him have a life I must be open to the idea perhaps olive oil is not really being tolerated. We think there has been insulin resistance at one time and now too sensitive as he is sooooo thin ( scary thin). I just happened to see somewhere today that olive oil is high in vitamin e – another fat soluble vitamin. At times we have given our son vitamin e because someone convinced us it would help – but his stress goes through the roof, blood sugar acts up, and he eventually seizes. Same for vitamin D. So, we are going to try a little butter, I guess tomorrow and get rid of olive oil. So, yeah I wonder about all these fat soluble vitamins.
Hi, Joanie Wilson:
I’m very sorry that your son is horribly ill with seizures, reactive hypoglycemia, and inability to increase his metabolism. I can’t imagine the strain on your family and I hope you’re able to find a successful resolution.
Now, while this is off the subject of diet and fat-soluble vitamins, hearing about your son’s seizures reminded me of the following story that was aired on CNN a few years ago. The little girl featured in the story was having around 300 seizures weekly, prior to the introduction of CBD oil.
I’m not sure if this is relevant for your son, if you’ve looked into the matter, or if it’s even something that’s of interest. But, I thought I should at least share it.
WEED The CBD Secret is out!
A CNN Special Report by Dr Sanjay Gupta
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUwkLiciY6Q
NOTE: I’m not a doctor, nurse, or any type of healthcare practitioner. I have no medical training at all. So, this isn’t medical advice.
I wish your son and your family the best of luck, in searching for a safe, effective, and lasting solution.
Thank you very much for your kind words, it truly made my night. Recently, since we could legally try the oil, we bought and tried it with our son ( from Charlotte’s Web who produced the oil that helped the little girl) – no go. It seems like we are blocked at every turn. I never realized until I started journaling his dietary journey 3.5 yrs ago that he reacted to herbs, among what seems like a thousand other things. Why, I wondered, why?? So many herbs are touted as good for diabetics because they lower blood sugar. I can’t believe how many things lower blood sugar. He has had pneumonia 2 times this year and had an infected wisdom tooth = antibiotics. His blood sugar was a nightmare. They can lower bs. So, we tried it anyhow because we were desperate. The good news is that WE use it now and it has helped us immensely with our stress levels and to reduce our anti-stress medication. We didn’t use a lot, though we sure needed to – we white knuckled through a lot of days and nights. But this oil does help. We use the advanced hemp extract. Now the oil is olive oil and I was saying in another comment olive oil has a lot of vitamin e in it and we were wondering about toxicity of other oil soluble vitamins. I don’t do well with any oil or fat so I am waiting on capsules to get here. Again, thank you for your kindness.
Dear, Joanie:
Indeed, it’s my pleasure to chat with you. Thank you for taking the time to provide more details.
I’m sorry the CBD oil wasn’t helpful for your son. But, I’m happy you were able to give it a trial.
Obviously, there are reasons your son is having such difficulties. You’ve just not found the right healthcare practitioner to crack the code.
Not yet.
Just remember that each unsuccessful encounter is drawing you one step closer to the resolution. Sometimes, medicine has to find all the things that are NOT wrong, before they’re able to dig deeper, and, finally, arrive at the correct answer.
There IS a reason.
While your son’s doctors are helping to manage his symptoms, I hope they’re also continuing to ask themselves “Why?” Or, I hope you’re helping to remind them!
“Why is ‘X’ happening?”
When an answer is presented, they must then question why THAT process is occurring. Then, keep repeating “Why?” until no longer possible. “I don’t know” is not a valid answer.
I trust the doctors have looked into the following?
– Ensuring proper stomach acidity
– Testing for enzyme deficiencies
– Function of pancreas, liver, etc.
– Diagnostic imaging of pancreas, etc.
– Measuring hormones
– Testing for infections/parasites
Despite my lambasting “alternative” medicine, I think it has strengths and weaknesses. Thus, in that regard, it’s not unlike conventional medicine.
Take whatever wins you can, wherever you can get them. It’s all cumulative. You never know what small victory will tilt the balance in your son’s favor. At some point, just one more drop of water will burst the dam!
Progress isn’t always a straight line, so be patient.
My prayers and best wishes to your family!
To be fair, I wouldn’t get too discouraged about CBD oil not working. I have talk to over a dozen people who have tried it in hopes of resolving a health issue of some kind. Not a SINGLE PERSON HAS NOTED ANY DIFFERENCE from CBD oil. None.
Matt and Joanie,
Medical marijuana is now legal and available in my state. My husband is enrolled in the program and vapes marijuana for chronic pain. He had tried CBD oil prior and it did nothing for him just as Matt said. The doctor who certified my husband told him that the various cannabinoids in marijuana work synergistically and that’s why isolated CBD is ineffective for most people. Marijuana is also approved for seizure disorders even in children. No one wants to see a child walking around stoned. But that may be better than having the child seize multiple times a day.
Carl, Thanks for all the thoughts to think about haha. I definitely agree that often we have to find all the things that are not wrong first. Our family dr. loves to whip out this maze on a paper with all sorts of stuff on it I have not really read when she thrusts it into my lap – but she tells me, ” look at all the functions that go on in the body and so finding what is wrong is like looking for a needle in a haystack” or something like that. She, and other dr.’s have told me to give up – like that is an option. They are an example of dr’s who care but are frustrated by the limitations of medicine. We have had our share of specialists who are tunnel visioned about certain things like diabetes or seizure medication and not at all interested in being a detective. That is the #1 thing that frustrates me – the lack of interest in the interesting cases. But they are often just too busy. And some testing that would help to illuminate matters is hard to get done in Indianapolis ( I live an hour from Indy ). He has been a patient at IU and as a kid, Riley, In some things these places are great, but in our son’s case – we were not at all impressed and had a misdiagnosis. Our son has been a patient in every major hospital in Indianapolis.
I dove into alternative therapies and such years ago in desperation and you are right about it having strengths and weaknesses. I really made a lot of errors in trying to help our son with some protocols and self dx, but I also know it was just all I could do because no one else would do anything. We have tried several times to get into Cleveland Clinic and insurance would not allow us one time and we did not have the funds to cover it. 6 mos ago we tried again to see a neurologist who specializes in mitochondrial disorders and the state of Ohio prevented us because our son has Medicaid as a back up to my husband’s insurance. What???? Yeah. I said we would pay for what the primary didn’t cover and they said they were not allowed, by law, to even bill Patrick because he has Medicaid. I don’t know what people do to get into these places. Actually, this dr. works for a hospital that is not technically included in Cleveland Clinic, but another dr. they recommended was in the clinic, I think, and she said she was not sure they wouldn’t have the same issues. Plus, it was pediatric, too. These ped dr’s wills take adult cases if they are interested, but if hospitalization is necessary it becomes a problem because they are usually affilated with ped hospitals. I have found, as I looked into mitochondrial, fatty oxidation, organic acid, errors of inborn metabolism and other disorders that so much is centered on children. It is hard to find dr’s and information geared for adults, bc I guess many disorders are serious enough they are discovered in childhood. However, many of the disorders can remain undiscovered until adulthood.
I Tried the baking soda test for stomach acidity and he seemed ok, but I used digestive enzymes for a while. They didn’t seem to make a difference.
His blood liver tests are ok, can’t get a fasting test for insulin because he has to eat the minute he gets up. I think his insulin is overly zealous but who would test this and how?
At one time I convinced our dr. to give me a medication to slow his production of insulin – serious stuff – I was going to just trial it to see if it helped and then use that as evidence to get an endo to do something creative, but I chickened out. I don’t want to mess with his pancreas. My family dr. is getting impatient and trying to push him off on specialists that just think I ought to focus on anti-seizure medications and stop looking for the cause.
We have done some testing on our own, like hair analysis, cortisol saliva, and the Dutch Test for hormones ( urine spot), and lost of thyroid blood tests ( he had a hyper bout in 2012 – a storm, but normalized eventually). At one time he had almost no cortisol, then he had too much. I am wanting to do parasitic/infections/ yeasts etc… stool I guess. But then one reads all the pros and cons and I get discouraged. I think I am just burned out and tired right now. But your encouragement has awakened that ole fight in me. I really value this site for all the great ideas and discussions, but I never participated much because I just don’t feel, even though I have spent years reading up and worked with Peat for a number of years, that I can hold my own with the big brains around here. Plus, I often don’t have any time at all ( today – 8 seizures so far and with the last one all the food and drink landed on the floor and partially on him and me. He also bounced off a shelf at GNC, scaring the manager badly, but he was ok due to helmet and chest/back protector and me catching him partially, slowing it down. There is a space between helmet and back that is open to injury.) But, I am glad I chose to talk because there are some pretty caring folks here and you are one!!
Joanie — re: CBD, you may already know this, but try to get organic, because hemp is a plant that will absorb tons of toxins in the soil around it.
Also, as Jeanne mentioned, CBD is more effective when THC is added — but the amount of THC can be very, very small and not enough to get anyone high.
However, if you and/or your husband are using it and have to do drug tests at your jobs, there’s a slight chance that the THC could show up on those.
Joanie Wilson,
I’m so sorry to hear about your son’s health problems. Have you done any research into Taurine? It is used to control seizures in dogs and many people report elimination or near elimination of seizures when using Taurine. Here’s a link to an article on Livestrong that explains benefits and cautions of using Taurine for seizures in laymen’s terms. https://www.livestrong.com/article/356544-taurine-seizures/ There are also a number of PubMed articles.
Good luck to you and your son.
Hi Jeanne,
I tried taurine with him for a long while and it didn’t appear to help. Now things act differently when combined and I had given it with a boatload of other things. He is on hardly any supplements now ( just magnesium and I can’t take it away without him getting seriously worse), as we discovered most of them bother him in some way. Taurine is an amino acid, I think, and he does not do well with amino acids/ gelatin ( protein in general).
Right now I am trying to pull him out of starvation mode by staggering calories – increase one day, back off the next. Today has been lousy, but I need to not expect him to get better right away. That is the thing I need to focus on. When he gets worse I freak out and stop something that might actually be helping, but not showing it yet.
Jeanne, Hi again. In our state, Indiana, medical marijuana is not available except in some kind of medication (epilotic or something like that, I am going to look it up.). I thought it was but my husband says it is not. A dr. at the hospital recently told me we could get a prescription for the oil. I don’t want him to smoke anything because he is prone to pneumonia and I hate to admit this, but a few yrs ago we actually tried some illegally. We were desperate, but a few days later he got pneumonia. We tried making edibles for a few weeks, but it was so expensive and lot of work, so we stopped for a while. Then, after a bad bout of seizures we got it back out and he inhaled it. We were coming down with a novel strain of swine flu at the time and our son developed pneumonia and then Adult Respiratory Distress Syndrome ( 35% survival rate) and was put on life support and transferred to another hospital where he spent 8 days in some crazy roto bed that looked like a rocket. It would rotate nearly upside down. It increases survival rate to 65% or so and it saved his life. If you can believe it our eldest son followed suit and we had 2 sons on life support in those beds – we lived in a hospital waiting room for a month. I have believed, though I could find nothing online, that the stuff he inhaled did this because he had had pneumonia a month before after inhaling. But he has also had pneumonia this yr twice and definitely did not inhale anything.
It might be that the stuff we got was not as safe as we were told. Hard telling what might have been in it. I feel so stupid. I am going to re-check the legalities. Thank you so much for offering ideas to me. I need all the ideas I can get.
Dear, Joanie:
I’m just catching-up on comments, but wanted to say you’re definitely NOT stupid! I’m flabbergasted the number of health challenges your family has had to endure — both sons AND your husband having serious conditions!
(I’m sorry us guys can be so challenging!)
However, the fact that you’ve continued to get back on your feet, each time you’re knocked down, says a lot about your dedication as a Mother and Wife, and clearly demonstrates your caring, selfless nature and strength of character.
You’re doing your absolute best, so no one could ask for more! In fact, you’re learning and doing a lot more than you should HAVE to do, because you’re trying to help close the gap between the illness and what healthcare has been able to offer.
It would be like me trying to repair the transmission in my car. I could read repair stories on the Internet and watch “How to…” YouTube videos, but, ultimately, I’m not a mechanic! So, if I were unsuccessful in attempting to rebuild my transmission, it’s not due to a lack of intelligence or desire. It’s because I was never trained as a mechanic. I didn’t go to school for that profession, I didn’t study the repair manuals, and I didn’t gain hands-on experience working under a seasoned mechanic!
So, I encourage you to keep things in perspective, recognize all the good that you ARE doing, and show yourself the patience and kindness that you deserve!
Your son’s situation has been on my mind last night and again today. I’m going to sift-through the health-related resources I’ve saved over the past five years of dealing with my own health issues and see if there’s anything that might be helpful…or, that may point you toward something or someone that can help.
More to follow.
Joanie, have you had amino acid levels checked? Knowing what AAs are not utilized well might help in developing a tolerated diet.
Turtlegurl this cbd oil thing has had me confused, probably because I just wasn’t ready to mess with it, so my hubby did the research. I have had to learn a bit, though, whether I like it or not. We get ours from Charlottes Web who are the ones ( brothers) who provided it to epileptics who were able to move to Colorado before legalization. They claim to be very careful about their soil and have 3rd party investigations/testing etc… . They explain the difference between hemp and cbd oil. We get hemp. Marijuana ( I don’t know, but assume this means cbd oil which is mostly associated with marijuana) has about 15 to 30% thc in it, psychoactive compared to hemp’s <o.3% non psychoactive thc. And yet it can surface on a test for employment purposes. Some companies are abandoning these tests now and are having to figure out different ways to test. Anyhow these guys have bred their hemp to contain over 80 photocannabinoids ( like naturally occurring turpines flavonoids) in some unique combination that work synergistically to heighten positive effects sometimes called " the entourage effect". I don't know yet, a thing about the entourage effect. This is just what they say and I do think they have proven themselves to be a reputable company.
Carl,
You deserve a big hug((((((())))) – corny, but who cares. I am a hugger person. I don’t want you to feel obligated to have to go through any hassles looking for resources for me.
I know I am not really stupid, but I am much more impulsive than I probably should be and I feel like I never learn to slow down and be more hesitant to jump. Some of it comes from the fact he is 27 now and it is like time is flying. His life, our life…. going so fast. I just want to see him have a life and everything we do concerning him takes forever. It took us 3.5 yrs to take him off a few drugs and supplements because he is so sensitive to changes, probably even good ones.
Oh, my husband’s health is good. I’m always throwing out new diet strategies or some protocol to try after reading and searching and he’ll listen and usually say “Let’s give it a go!” He hates to go to work and leave me to care for him alone and has taken medical leaves during really difficult times ( unpaid). When Patrick is in the hospital we are both there all of the time. I am very blessed. We are getting older and of course that concerns us, but we trust God with all that.
Anyhow, I feel like I have totally hijacked this thread and I am sorry Matt. I’ll pipe down, but I just had to respond to the kind people who have taken the time to offer me ideas.
Aw, thanks, Joanie. You’re very kind. I gladly accept all hugs! :-)
I only wish I could offer something useful. However, you’ve done such a good job at looking at so many things, you’re way ahead of my ideas.
The only thing I forgot to add to the list in a previous comment was Fecal Microbiota Transplant (FMT).
That may not be relevant for your son’s situation, but, again, I’m just throwing things out to see what sticks. So to speak…
Otherwise, it’s no trouble for me to help look for alternate resources. Like the many other folks on this blog, we’re all trying to help each other!
Hi Sue,
My son is the one who can’t tolerate so many foods, so I think that is who you are commenting about. I have not had his amino acids checked. I think he did yrs ago – blood test through some specialty lab I think. If he was to be low I could not have done anything about it for several years because any meat or even much plant protein caused him seizures. I think he is kind of stuck in a starvation state where his body cannot even deal with the thermic effect of protein. I am thrilled to report that we are having SOME success at adding a BIT of meat over the last 10 days or so. It is super exciting. We are ssslllooowwwwllly increasing food while adding one small portion of meat a day ( about 5 to 6 g of protein). It is not perfect, but his body is handling it much better than it used to. We have experimented with many amino acids in the past and they all caused the same problems as the food. Many of these and other supplements and herbs can lower blood sugar and though sometimes it is slight my son’s body over reacts to such things. It is very confusing with the reactive hypoglycemia and episodes of true hypoglycemia- there are inborn errors of metabolism where protein causes hypoglycemia, for example. It has been a nightmare. I think, now, that Propranolol, a beta blocker drug, was causing a lot of this issue when he was on a higher dose, plus interaction with it and a few other things he is no longer on was creating a mess I could not figure out.
There are examples of this like folic acid being a problem for some people who are poor converters of that into methyl folate or whatever. It supposedly accumulates and causes problems. This is to do with the MTHFR gene expression err sumtin like that. So those people are “suppose” to supplement actual folate an also methyl b12 as well? I afraid to see my genes…
Anywho! Some MTHFR “expert” peoples maybe just the beyondmthfr guy, believe that genetic issues like this, cause excess homocysteine to build up in the body and this is one of the big disease causing problems, or atleast brain degeneration? I have no idea about anything I just read too much and retain a quarter of it and become confused.
@Bob Dean Metal Dude – I can sure relate to reading too much, retaining too little, and becoming confused!
As for MTHFR, lots of people are still jumping on that train, while often ignoring the many other genes/SNPs.
The hysteria has caused many people to purchase methylated B-vitamins, without first confirming a need to do so, and over-consume them — much like they were doing with fish oil, just a few years ago.
Getting one’s genes tested might be helpful for some, but I’d imagine not everyone needs to do so. Under-methylating is a problem, but so is OVER-methylating.
So, like most things in health and in life, the problems AND the answers are usually more complex than we understand. Unfortunately, there’s more than we DON’T know than we do know.
I agree, thanks for responding
This all fits very nicely with my theory on human health being intricately linked to liver health and the ability of the liver to perform its various functions.
Almost everything we eat contains something that is either outright harmful or can accumulate to levels that are harmful – which is ultimately why we have a liver (and kidneys, and various mechanisms for toxin removal from our body such as our digestive system, bladder, skin, breathing out). Almost everything we eat, and almost everything we breath in will at some point pass through the liver to be metabolized for use, storage, excreted, or get converted into something safer that can then be excreted or stored. If the liver becomes damaged or stagnated for various reasons, or if we inadvertently deny our liver the resources it needs to perform various metabolic functions, liver function is impaired. This means your body’s ability to metabolize and clean out anything harmful will also become impaired. The worse your liver health gets, or the longer your liver goes without the resources it needs to do its job, the less your liver can keep up with demand, and the more you notice a vast array of possible symptoms, depending on what your liver function is not able to keep up with.
Excess vitamin A filling up storage and resulting in an overflow of harmful byproducts that the liver cant deal with fast enough certainly fits with this concept and adds another very interesting explanation for people feeding on vastly different set of foods to all come up with the same sickness and disease in their bodies. Without a doubt our bodies have become inundated with larger and larger quantities of “harmful” substances over the last few decades, be they in our foods, the air we breath, or what we apply to our skin. The liver can still function enough to keep us alive with only a very small percentage of “healthy” functioning liver tissue, so we may only notice the effects when our liver function gets increasingly low, a reason why one person can eat plenty of vitamin A without expressing symptoms, and another person can react negatively to the smallest quantity – if the liver cannot process it, it will get into the blood stream and affect various tissues, or be expelled via the skin causing skin irritation and inflammation on the way out.
I think there will be many different reasons for people to have impaired liver function (what they’ve been exposed to, what they might be deficient in, and thus the symptoms that are exhibited as a result), and therefore explains why different diets/solutions work or are needed for different people, depending on how their liver function became adversely affected … but I will be very interested to try a vitamin A depleted diet for a short term to see if I notice improvements to some of my own symptoms that I was already attributing to impaired liver function.
Look after your liver and your liver will look after you … I just made that up – not bad (I’m impressed easily tho).
Many different cultures from ancient times to today have observed something along the lines of what Hippocrates said: “all diseases begin in the gut”, meaning it’s all about what you eat (and how much). They were right.
Nick the Noo, the reason that people with different disease background have similar symptoms is not that the causes are the same, but just due to the fact that the body has a limited repertoire of responding to stressors, physical or non-physical. It’s the same when your motor makes a funny noise, you can hear there is something wrong, but the noise doesn’t tell you what.
Also, I’d like to remark that humans probably have the best detoxifying systems in the mammalian kingdom. Fish can only store toxins in their tissue, higher vertebrates like birds have detoxifying liver functions, but mammals top the cake. And omnivores have decidedly better detox functions than both carnivores and herbivores. As long lived omnivores, ours are the very best, possibly only rivaled by some rodents.
If the liver storage capacity for retinol is full, there is still room in adipose tissue. So stopping intake will slowly reduce the vast reserves.
Maureen, do you think in a situation of weight loss in a person with a prior history paleo/WAPF style type of eating (high A) years ago could end up liberating lots of stored A? Hypothetically could a person supplementing A experience a double whammy so to speak from both stored and supplemented A? Your opinion would be appreciated!
Bella, I’m also struggling with obesity. Grant’s experience with the vitamin a restriction include a lot of fat loss, while he was still eating his fill.
I have huge metabolic resistance. If my wild speculation is true, the clearing out of vitamin a dictates the amount of fat you can lose without rapidly regaining it. I finally manage to lose weight now that I’m eating mostly lean beef with moderate amounts of rice, millet or some flatbread. I do eat fruits, in between two meals that I consume within a time window of 8 hours. No high fat or keto for me, it gives me horrible muscle cramps and makes me fatter.
One of the best things I’ve done for myself was deprogramming my diet mindset. I’ve learned to respect and to listen to my body. I never liked to eat tons of veggies, so now I eat veggies to taste. And I don’t restrict my intake, other than avoiding vitamin a and keeping to my time window. If food contains carotene, I only consume them with a very low fat meal or in between meals and when I crave them. Feeling better, slowly.
Thanks for your reply Maureen, I think I remember you from a Facebook group years ago. I was bmi >30 and gradually over the last couple years it had decreased to about 24-25 without me trying so I think my metabolism must have recovered as Matt has discussed. It took about 5 years but things are much better besides the autoimmune symptoms that intensified over the last year. I had started supplementing A though and eating liver again. Ironically during the time I was tapering and redistributing the most I was not supplementing anything or eating liver. That’s part of why Grant’s theory made sense to me. I don’t care if I lose anymore weight at this point but I would like to get rid of the autoimmune symptoms! They honestly seem better when I stick with eating low/no vitamin A style. I’m close to 50 so I am more concerned with health than looks!
I agree with Nick, liver health seems to be crucial. An overburdened liver and a poor gallbladder will lead to the diseases we know. Taking care of this organ sure is important, but the question is how to do it. Avoiding drugs and alcohol seems obvious, but what is the diet for liver health? Truth is nobody really knows.
Somebody here mentioned liver flushing. Having done four of those already, I plan on continuing them on a monthly basis. I feel they could be helpful, or at least they won’t hurt. Same for coffee enemas if you are not overdoing them. But beyond these methods? There are herbs and supplements, but they are only a temporary support for the liver and don’t really undo any damage.
Vk,
As for liver/gallbladder “flushes,” they are not without some level of risk. If a person gets an actual stone (or, one of the saponified oil droplets created from guzzling oil, citrus juice, and Epsom salt) stuck in the bile duct, the person will almost certainly end-up needing emergency surgery to remove their gallbladder.
In the last article posted on this blog, I had this same discussion with a lady who had completed over 40 of these “flushes.” She reported a lot of improvements, as a result of completing the flushes. I believe her story. However, I respectfully disagree with the idea that the items being expelled are actual gallstones.
Anyway, whatever you choose, I wish you good health.
@Vk: If you have non alcoholic fatty liver disease, or even if you’re just overweight and there’s some fat in the liver, that starts to interfere with the liver doing it’s job. Last year there was that study where researchers reversed type 2 diabetes by using aggressive VLC diets that removed the fat from the liver and pancreas of the patients, and restored their function.
@Skeptic:
Good comments. Are you referring to the Newcastle Diet, by chance? If so, I recall hearing about that on the “Latest in Paleo” podcast.
p.s.
I’m not sure if you ever listened to the “Latest in Paleo” podcast or it’s predecessor “This Week in Paleo,” but I listened to all episodes of both shows. What started as a Paleo/Low-Carb/Eat-More-Bacon approach ended-up with a plant-predominant diet with small amounts of meat and no added fats, oils, or supplements.
After he (Angelo) lost a bunch of weight on “Paleo,” his weight loss stalled. That led to his changing-up things, rather than doubling-down on low-carb. He came-up with what he called the “Plant Paleo Diet.” It ended-up being mostly carbs from whole plants.
In the end, Angelo was able to lose the remainder of his weight. In total, he lost about 100 pounds. (And, he’s kept it off for a few years.) He then figured he had nothing else to say or do, so he quit his blog and podcast and went off the radar for 18 months.
In fact, I just went to his site, to get the direct link to his “Plant Paleo Diet” and see that he’s updated his website. It’s now called the “Mostly Plant Diet.”
http://www.humansarenotbroken.com/mostly-plant-diet
He used to have “Before” and “After” photos, sans shirt, on his blog, but they’ve since been removed.
I snapped PDFs of some of the old web pages, for fear he might let the domain expire. But, his updated site seems to indicate he’s working on a new show titled “Humans Are Not Broken.” If it’s anything like his other two podcasts, with regard to quality research, content, and production, the new show will be great.
(That’s a long p.s.)
@Carl: I think so yes. I’ve heard Angelo’s name before, but have never dived into his stuff. His current diet sounds like the Fuhrman diet with some animal foods added. Unfortunately I can’t do a diet like that since my insides would explode with all that fiber and resistant starch he’s recommending. Also, I tried volumetrics way back and it didn’t work for me. My body is not fooled by a stomach full of lettuce, it demands heavy calories lol
I’m surprised he hasn’t jumped to the carnivore bandwagon like virtually 100% of Paleo bloggers. That alone tells me he’s not an idiot.
@Skeptic:
Wow, “volumetrics”! I’ve not heard that one in a while. We must be some old guys. lol
Man, I forgot about your difficulty with heavy fiber, starch, and other difficult-to-digest foods. My apologies. Between this blog and a forum I frequent, I can’t always maintain the most relevant details about the key players. To honor your need for heavy calories, I just had some bacon and eggs. Probably not the best idea, right before bed, but I was hungry.
You’re quite right that Fuhrman (or, “Furburger,” as Penn Jillette calls him) was one of the many people that Angelo researched. I provided him with some of the information on Fuhrman, as well as Greger, Novick, and Popper. We also traded e-mails about Pritikin, Esselstyn, and others. But, my contributions were minimal. Really, it was all Angelo.
So, yes, his “Plant Paleo” / “Mostly Plant” diet is heavily influenced by Fuhrman and others.
Angelo was constantly reading books, researching PubMed, interviewing guests, thinking, and experimenting. He’s definitely not a knucklehead.
He also has a lot of integrity, as he received lots of lucrative sponsorship/advertising offers, but turned-down most, because they were crap products he didn’t believe in. I only recall two sponsors that he accepted and he used both or their products.
That was an especially brave position, since he’d quit his corporate job in Arizona, moved his family to Washington state (where they knew no one), and did his blogging and podcasting full-time. As far as I’m aware, they relied solely on listener donations and his Amazon.com affiliate links for the various food and kitchen items they used and recommended.
Anyway, his website has lots of interesting information, beyond his plant-heavy diet. However, I also know you’re an incredibly well-read guy, so his information may be nothing new to you.
Okay, it’s 6:50 AM and I’m finally off to get some sleep. I really need to flip my days and night back to “normal.”
lol you should, this circadian stuff is no joke
Based on my own research and my own experiences over the last few years, I think there are multiple strategies for liver health.
With over 500 different functions being carried out by the liver, there are numerous ways that liver function can be affected, which is why I think there are numerous sets of symptoms that can be exhibited by people with liver issues. Some of the more well known ones are fatty liver disease (alcoholic or non-alcoholic versions), cirrhosis/scarring of the liver tissue, or virus/bacterial infection, but it can also become clogged and less effective, or it can simply be lacking nutrients for one of the 500+ different functions (which may be a long term dietary deficiency, or it may be the presence of infection in the body, or the presence of or repeated exposure to harmful substances that depletes the body of nutrients – such as exposure to heavy metals such as mercury which have a strong affinity to sulfur leaving little sulfur available for the numerous metabolic pathways in the liver that require sulfur, such as metabolizing salicylates for anyone who has a salicylate sensitivity).
Figuring out what an individual is doing to impair liver function and finding a solution is probably going to be slightly different for everyone, but there are some general strategies to follow for a) improving liver function, b) protecting liver tissue and c) repairing damaged liver tissue. Then you can also minimize your exposure to substances that are harmful to the liver (such as pharmaceuticals or alcohol) or can interfere with nutrient availability.
I think it can be a lot more complicated than that for some people, especially if they have had problems for a while (not ignoring that the liver is heavily involved in digestion), and a struggling liver will ultimately cause problems with digestion. Anyone with impaired gut function or inflammation in the digestive tract or stomach, or your gallbladder is not working well will need to include protocols that help with those issues too.
A gallbladder flush can be risky as Carl suggests, but there are safer ways to get the gallbladder working better. My suggestion would be a few days of beetroot juice, and grapefruit juice mixed with green tea and lemon juice. However, if you have gallbladder issues, you more than likely have gastro issues, and highly acidic foods may aggravate that condition. Go slowly if that describes you.
Too much fat in your diet I think is a major route for liver and gallbladder problems, and subsequent stomach/gastro issues, which will lead to further digestive issues and malabsorption. How? If you are consuming more fat than your liver can manage and bile production is insufficient, then bile quantities will be insufficient to neutralize stomach acid when it reaches the duodenum. This will result in signals to the stomach to reduce stomach acid production to prevent acid damage to the more sensitive small intestinal lining. When your stomach acid levels drop, food is not digested as well resulting in less food being absorbed in the small intestines and more food making its way to bacteria in the large intestines, increasing the chances of bloating and gut inflammation. Low stomach acid levels also increase the chance of pathogens surviving the stomach and taking residence in the lining of the stomach (such as H. Pylori), which can result in inflammation of the stomach lining and esophagus and further reduce stomach acid production. Oversized meals, acidic foods, and foods that encourage acid production in the stomach (such as caffeine) can then make symptoms worse. I ate smaller meals, avoided acidic foods, and drank a hot beef gelatin drink in the mornings to help with this.
Inflammation in the digestive tract has the potential to expose your body to toxins if it results in the intestinal lining becoming damaged. Bloating in the belly can often just be an inflammation response to damage in the intestines, rather than a buildup of gas. For me this was often accompanied by higher cortisol levels which remained high (possibly because my liver struggled to metabolise excess cortisol). Possible causes for damage of the gut lining I think includes exposure to heavy metals, pesticides in foods, or an overgrowth of fungus or other pathogenic bacteria strains. I noticed my symptoms got significantly worse on a particular probiotic which contained different strains of bacteria, histamine producers in particular.
Smaller sized meals I think are important. Giving your liver less to do is one of the keys to keeping it healthy. I suspect that the idea of a low calorie diet resulting in longevity isn’t necessarily because its a low calorie diet, but because they are eating less and placing less burden on liver function (maybe, its an interesting theory anyway).
Herbs that help with liver function and promote liver tissue repair include the usual trio of milk thistle, burdock, and dandelion. Artichoke is also useful. Herbal teas that are beneficial include green tea, roibos/redbush tea, and peppermint tea.
Fruit and vegetables that seem to help include beetroot, grapes/sultanas/raisins, lemon, garlic (although I would go easy on garlic personally), and typical bitter herbs such as thyme, oregano, and sage (you can make a hot tea from these herbs). Carrots would have been one I recommended also, but being high in vitamin A precursors, they might be worth not including at this stage.
Serrapeptase can reportedly be used for healing scar tissue in the liver.
There are non-dietary things that you can do to improve liver health too, such as avoiding pollutants in the air you breath as they will enter the bloodstream via the lungs and become something the liver has to remove. Artificial fragrances in perfumes, cosmetics, toiletries, cleaning products, or laundry detergents were big ones for me. Traffic pollution also, as were mothballs and paints.
Another big one for me personally was exposure to heavy metals (mercury in particular), which I believe was their affect on my sulfur levels. Following protocols to eliminate such substances out of the body I believe is also an important step for those who have been exposed. Mixed mineral ascorbates combined with either MSM or Epsom salt baths, along with daily activated charcoal was the protocol I have had the most success with. I included chlorella with my protocol also, but that would be fairly high in vitamin A precursors, so in light of this whole article, use it at your own discretion.
Sleeping at the right times can make a huge difference. Being asleep by 11pm will greatly speed up liver recovery I believe. The only plausible explanation I’ve come across in my research for this is the premise that certain liver repair functions only take place when asleep during a small window of time between roughly 11pm and 1am, and if you miss that time slot, you need to wait until the following evening. I cant confirm that with data, but from my own experience there seems to be a connection between the time I fall asleep and the severity of my symptoms (ie, the earlier the better, and getting more sleep later does not provide the same symptomatic relief). Exercise and movement is also supposed to be very helpful for maintaining liver health. This could be due to an increase in circulation, or a potential increase in sweating out harmful substances via the skin. Not a new idea to suggest doing something active every day is healthier than sitting on your pie all day.
I’m sure there are more things, but this has become a long enough post already. Apologies to those with a short attention span :)
To those who are wondering, I had a lung tumor about 5 years ago that I believe was a result of having amalgam/mercury fillings removed unsafely. This screwed up my lungs, my endocrine system in particular, but also my liver function. Liver tests showed my liver was dying after emergency surgery to remove half my right lung. I’ve been on a quest to figure out how to heal my liver and the rest of my body ever since, mostly without western medicine. The things I’ve described here is what has helped me to get back to “almost” normal. I am hopeful that this article on the excesses of vitamin A (which I believe is very plausible for my scenario) will help me further.
That sounds like one hell of a battle Nick! Congrats on making it this far and I hope you continue to make progress.
@Nick: you said “If you are consuming more fat than your liver can manage and bile production is insufficient, then bile quantities will be insufficient to neutralize stomach acid when it reaches the duodenum. This will result in signals to the stomach to reduce stomach acid production to prevent acid damage to the more sensitive small intestinal lining.”
I’ve always suspected this but can’t find any good sources that focus on it, specifically the stomach acid part. Any sources you can recommend. Every time I try to find something it just ends up being a chiropractor citing zero sources and recommending you pop Betaine HCL like candy.
Nick the Noo,
Thanks for taking the time to post such great comments. I’m familiar with some of that information, due to struggling with my own health issues, but certainly not all of it. And, I’ve not seen it all posted in one place and so succinctly. Thank you.
Wishing you continued success on your journey!
@Matt:
Thanks Matt – yeah, I’ve had me some days :) I imagine the asthma was no walk in the park either. Will let you know if a low vitamin A diet brings any further joy.
@Carl:
Cheers – hope some of it proves useful. Makes my own painful learning feel more worth it when it helps others.
@Skeptic:
Try a search on stomach acid regulation mechanisms, that is the area you’ll find the most relevant information. In particular there are 3 hormones that I am aware of, somatostatin, secretin, and cholecystokinin, the last 2 I think fall under the category of enterogastrones.
There are actually 3 possible reasons for the reduction of stomach acid that I can see. 1) the body does it by intelligent design to prevent damage to the lining of the duodenum; 2) its a basic stress response to damage occurring to the lining of the duodenum, which triggers the production of somatostatin to shut down stomach acid secretion, just as digestion normally gets turned off in the face of a stressor; or 3) secretin and cholecystokinin are normally produced as chyme enters the duodenum, both of which begin to inhibit acid production in the stomach (by further producing somatostatin I think), cholecystokinin in particular also triggers the release of bile, however if insufficient bile flow exists (in the presence of a fat rich meal in particular), the ongoing presence of undigested lipids in the duodenum would result in an ongoing release of cholecystokinin to trigger the release of more bile, all the while further triggering the release of somatostatin to effectively turn off stomach acid. So a lack of bile flow to promptly emulsify fats and neutralise acidity in the duodenum would ultimately lead to an ongoing lowering of stomach acid production through ongoing somatostatin, whilst potentially also triggering a stress response to ongoing acidity in the duodenum.
Bicarbonates from the pancreas should eventually reduce acidity in the absence of enough bile to prevent an ulcer forming in the duodenum but the lesser volume and lesser alkalinity of the bicarbonates compared to bile usually means a slower raising of the pH levels in the duodenum.
I’ve normally favoured options 1) or 2), but writing it out to explain it now, option 3) has equal validity, especially when it seems that fatty meals are a major trigger for many with gastro problems. There may be more to it than that, but that is my current understanding. Let us know if you learn anything more concrete.
Have you looked into TUDCA for removing fat from the liver. Seems to be a lot of bnoa fide research on it.
Nick the Noo,
I agree with you completely about the health of your liver affecting every aspect of your overall health. In the various comments about how to protect/enhance liver function no one has mentioned Taurine supplementation. I know… here I go again. I will have to change my 180 D name to Taurine Jeanne if I persist along this line. I had no sooner sworn off all supplements for good when I discovered Taurine. And now I seem to be turning into a Taurine advocate. I assure you that I don’t sell Taurine and I don’t work for any supplement manufacturers.
Taurine both thins the bile and stimulates bile production. So it helps in fat digestion. I have experienced a good deal of improvement in my digestion since I began supplementing with Taurine. And that in turn seems to be helping my health in many other ways.
The TUDCA I mentioned above contains taurine.
@Taurine Jeanne:
Have not tried Taurine supplementation before.
Looking at “taurine rich food” lists, I would be surprised if I have ever gone long without sufficient dietary taurine (except for a random few weeks of experimentation with veganism). Doesn’t mean my body was absorbing or utilising that taurine properly however.
It is something I will keep in the back of my head as being useful for improving liver and gallbladder function. Could explain in part why my journeys into veganism repeatedly failed.
Thanks for the input :)
It’s settled…This is the Truman Show… Years ago I heard maaybe Sean Croxton talk about Rami and his liver stuff..(you said he passed away, Matt?) Ever since I eat a lot of liver whenever I have an old “cavity” (deep molar) giving me problems. Whatever happens the pain always goes away, my teeth feel good and I havent been to the dentist in 10 years. I have other issues though. Now I am confused as fuck. I thought liver was a beautiful food.
I took carlons or some kinda capsule brand of cod liver back in 2013 to see if it helped my skin. I swear to god I probably used to much and it gave hundreds of pimples on the back of my head. I immediately stopped taking and it slowly resolved. I couldnt sleep on my back because of it. Those capsules had synthetic and I always assumed that was the issue.. Someone else mentioned the microbiome and I feel like that is a big factor in the food sensitivities situation. Good gut bugs, good gut food, good gut integrity, calmer immune system? I was theorizing that carnivore diets help with autoimmune issues because it starves gut critters but maybe not? Matt if youre reading this, look into Jordan Peterson talk about his miraculous results from Carnivore, his daughter even more so. Its doing sooomething. Despite the absence of all other foods people are feeling better on the meat! HOWEVER they are becoming extremely sensitive to other foods in the process. I was thinking that theyre calming their immune system but at the same time totally ravaging their gut diversity by only eating meat, steaks in particular. If experts cant agree on anything i feel literally mentally retarded at this point..
Way to go on the click baity title Matt..you sneaky son of a carotenoid.
@ Bob Dean: damn I forgot about Sean Croxton. He was the JERF (just eat real food) guy right? He was memed a few months ago when he released the JERF bar, a bar you can eat instead of real food LOL, an oxymoron in physical form. He doesn’t blog about health anymore, he’s moved on to motivational and “entrepreneur” stuff
I listened to Sean’s podcasts for a while, starting back in 2009 or 2010. I even bought his e-book. It must have been a big seller, because he then purchased a sweet house in San Diego, California for $839,000 USD.
Not bad, considering just a few short years earlier, he was living in a one-bedroom apartment. I recall his story about buying a flat-screen television from Best Buy and then returning it, so he could use the money to invest in some health-related course he’s discovered.
Back then, I think it was much easier to ride the waves of the Paleo, Primal, Low-Carb, and WAPF fads. Today, iTunes, YouTube, and the blogosphere are over-saturated.
Hi Carl,
I remember Croxton’s videos under the name “FoodDood” (FoodDude) in 2006, maybe he goes back even further? He had a nice video addressing Dr. Oz and LDL. Wow. I didn’t know he had such an expensive house. There was this Douglas Graham inspired whackball named “Paradigm667” on his forum in 2008. He was denying that chimps actively hunt for meat.
I once told Mark Sisson that I was going out as (a semi-obese version of him-padding under my shirt) him for Halloween back in 2011 after his moderators banned me from his forum. LOL.
Hi, Razwell!
I didn’t realize Croxton has been around that long! I’d never heard of the “FoodDood.” He’s an “old-timer,” like Matt. haha
Funny about getting banned by Sisson’s sycophants for having a sense of humor. Their leader must be worshipped and all dissenting opinions will be crushed!
I’ve had many comments rejected on the Weston A. Price Foundation website. If I posted something supportive, the comment was published. If I questioned Sally Fallon’s obesity, the comment was never published.
How are you feeling, these days, my friend? Are you back to normal? I hope so!
holy crap, dropped almost a million on a house?! that’s pretty damn good for a blogger
Most people who have obesity (obesity is a genuine disease and that is why I have an elevated insulin level (Dr. Jeffrey Friedman did a Q&A and admitted this. In fact, I often overlook the importance of it. But there are likely many more undiscovered hormonal players. Dr. Michael Brown and Dr. Joseph Goldstein are Nobel winners and stress the importance of insulin in fat tissue regulation on ScienceDaily site in an article. I wish I could find and link it (Dr. Friedman’s insulin comment and recognition and Goldstein’s recognition of it as well) The insulin model has NOT been debunked despite what a very poor scientist thinks and who has accomplished absolitely nothing in his career.(Guyenet) Insulin is ONE of the major hormonal regulators.
Onlynon the Internet is it debunkef. Real scientists study horjonal regulation , genetics an MOLECULAR MACHINES THAT DRIVE OBESITY
Fat dells are powerfully governed by hormones. Lack of sleep (major deprivation) has a tissue specific effectvon gene expression.
What has been debunked is this calorie model. Body fat is maintained syeady despite HUGE VARIATIONS in eating and exercise. This thetkodynamic MIDUSE argument falls flat on its face. Over 100 physicists agree with me collected over 5 years. Lyle McDonald and Kevin Hall are plain lauugable. I am glad Urgelt attacks the calorie model. It is a wrong assumption. Nature does not HAVE to behave ANY way. It does what it wants.
There is a GREAT lecture by Harvard Medical School BASHING the incorrect energy balance nonsense, tge same n8nsense Taubes rightfully bashes. . She is a black lady who looks like Michlke Obama, wish I could find it. I will try to link it. Guyenet, McDonald et al are on a witch hunt against Taubes out of jealousy, it’s NOT valid or rational. The only “problem” or “sin” Taubes committs is perhaps not seeing past JUST insulin, but insulin IS MAJOR, one of several huge players. BUT OVERALL his message (to me) is tgat he is pushing for the HORMONAL view, and this includes many more hormones. The hormonal view is much more in accord with observations than is the “energy balance” ABUSE of thermodynamics. Thermodynamucs does not even rrmotely explain fat cell behavior and WRINBERG HIMSELF would rtell you that.We cannot INFER ANYTHING about fat dells from thermodynamic theory…. (Thermodynamics is a tgeory, a model, there are no “laws” 7n science) Google Paul Lutus
I thought Guyenet thought obesity had a lot to do with leptin?
“Eat less, move more” is N-O-T how this works. Everybody from Dr. Friedman to Dr. Donal O’Shea, to many Harvard scientists say this, they have discovered it. Gary Taubes gets flak because he attacks this BASELESS fundamentalist belief, this assumption about fat regulation. The “eat less ,move more” have this die hard belief, they are like the most fundamentalist cult, cult is the perfect word, description. There is very little scientific evidence for the behavioral model as Urgelt notes. It is a shame, Guyenet used to be similar to Taubes in May 2010 in attacking the caloric model.i question his motives , tbey are quite clear.
Admitting my own build is lean DUE to GENETICS was difficult back in 2004 because I am an athlete (400 meters track) I am a natural ectomorph who is myscled. Reggie Miller was a skinny classic ecto.
Leaness depends on genetics, great sleep, proper immune system function, lack of background obesity causing diseases proper hormonal fuction etc.
Carbon ingestion is one factor tgat takes a backseat to these others.
@Raz: for what it’s worth, “eat less move more” is the treatment, NOT the theory of how people get fat. It’s based on the idea that the body won’t tap into fat stores unless there’s a calorie or carbon deficit. I haven’t really seen a good rebuttal of this idea.
Even if you go with Taubes, that carbs raised insulin and insulin put fat into your fat stores, so then what? Lowering insulin levels would stop fat gain, not cause fat loss. To lose you still have to create a deficit (until a better solution is found).
Eat less, move more is NOT a treatment. Friedman admits it fails. Nir is surgery that effective. He also admits bariatric surgery does NOT work nearly as well as adverised, either He told me this as well as said this in numerous talks. Further you could NOT get the same result by eating less. Bariatric surgery affects HORMONES, TGEY ARE TRYING TO MAKE A PILL FORM.Thissurgey affects the involuntary system, it does not partially eork by eating less. This is rhe svience. I have studied tjis obessively for a decade.
It is a Hippocrates wortnless nostrum. He is uber critical. Ox Shea in an article I have specifically STATES eat less mive more is NOT how this works.
Obesity is a politically charged topic. The scie tific evidence favors Taubes, the horminal view. He may stress insulin to the neglect of other hormones and gene defects. But tjus xalorie model is wrong. Calories and inverse fermions-exactly the same…. Neitther exist. Units of energy and energy, itsrlf NITHING, do NOT explain, nor are they causes of phenomena. Feynman was very clear about that.
Nobody believes me when I state e ergy is NOT ANYTHING WHATSOEVET. THAT IS DIRECTLY FROM PETIMETER INSTITUTE PHYSICISTS AND MANY MORE. THE Ph.Dxs know this.
We need to LET TO OF THE BASELESS BELIEF TO EAT LESS AND MOVE MORE.
Only a deeper molecular level understanding will help. Eat less move more is worthless advice for those with true severe obesity. You are not understanding the priblem. Taubes knows this adbice does NOT work. Friedman knows it, too.
Disengorge is the name here, not deficit. Mechanical forces could squash fat cells causing disintegration. Google ScienceDaily
Nobody on the Internet studied tjis energy ABUSE TOPIC more than I.
Fat loss could be caused by
Radiation of some sort, cosmetic procedures use radiowaves
Injection of specific medication at the site (cosmetic procedure, forget the drug’s name)
Direct surgery remival (but grows back)liposuction
Potentially mechanic force sqooshing it kGoogle Science Daily article
Bluelight from sun, radiation js STUFF, unlike rictional energy, and CAN ACT on human tissue, it shrinks tumors.zero deficit.
All that is required is that lipid cells stoo hoarding and relaease, disengorge.Fat cells CAN HOARD in the face of starvation
Numerous ways to raise insulin., not just carbohydrates. A huge piece of salmon will raise it.Chronic elevation is bad.
When we semi starve insulin is lowered a lot. This is complicated. The energy abusers ignire that which Bray ,himself, told me, STARVATION LOWERS INSULIN. Insuoin and carbon atom shortages are strongly interlinked. HORMOMES MATTER. Simple overeating is NOT THE CAUSE OF IBESITY. SCUENCE SHIWS THIS. URGELT STRESSES IT.LEIBEL AND REOSENBAUM stress they need to CHANGE VIEWS about common perceptions. Fat people ARE BIOLOGICALLY DIFFERENT IN THEIR OWN WORDS IN THE HBO special.
BRAY AGREES WITH TAUBES ABOUT THERMODYNAMIC MISUSE. IMHAVE THE DIRECT E-MAIL PROVING THIS. Energy balance says NOTHING. Bray admits it. He referred to energy as a state function that says nothing about how a person got fatter. I mysekf never ga e insuoin enough attention, downplaying it toooo much . This is due to factors like immune system and genetics. If anything I was not paying enough attention to it.
Bray is not privately as against Taubes as he is portrayed by the jealous half witt Guyemet. Taubes is on the right general path. No need to overly focus on carbs. Many factors affect insulin. Othr hormones are involved, then we have gene defects etc.
Good habits just make us ever so slightly leaner and onky in those healthy , no adverse medications, good hormones.Reggie Miller is barely “fatter ” today than when he played. He is naturally lean. Eat less move more is veey, veey limuted. The basball oineup does not change. If endomorohs and Reggie both lost fat, the naturallynfattest would still be the fattest, even if less so. The leanest woukd be the leanest. The calorie model is just wrong.
I looked into this O’Shea. You’ll never guess what he advised: eat healthy and exercise! It’s this video on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/OpTranRTE/videos/10156291326750921/
If you go to the -3:30 mark (last part of the video), he says “and it’s all about the energy in and the energy out. They’re the two things we can address. And Operation Transformation addresses the calories in… and the calories out”
There is currently no other treatment, other than bariatric surgery, which is still basically creating a deficit by making your stomach smaller and forcing you to eat less.
We CANNOT adress carbon absorptiin versus excretion. You need to get that out ofmyour head. It is NOT voluntary. It is largely involunatry. People’s metabolisms are infividualized, their health, diseases, . You coukd do everything “right” and the body DOES ITS OWN THING WITH A MIND OF ITS OWN. I HAVE OERSINALLY SEEN IT. LEIBEL SAID THIS AS WELL. THE BODY HAS A MIND IF ITS OWN. WEMHAVE VERY LIMUTED CONTROL OF CARBON INGESTIIN VERSUS EXCRETIIN. BODY HAS DEFENSES THAT EXERT CONTROL AND DOMINATION. IT HAPOENED TO ME WHEN I HAD MONO. LIZZE VELASUQEZ CANNOT GAIN FAT TO SAVE HER LIFE.
FIRGET CALORIES. THEYNARE NOT IN ANY WAY INTRINSIC TO FOOD. YOU COULD USE INVERSE FERMIONS OR ERGS. NO DIFFERENCE AT ALL.WE ASIGN THESE FICTITIOUS UNITS. THINK INTERMS OF CARBON GRAMS
Lol damn Matt, and that’s the best we’ve come up with after all this “science”, that’s depressing
The IMMUNE SYSTEM STRONGLY controls the carbon absorption versus excretion. This is his whole point of Dr. O’Shea’s discovery. I knew it was involved from my friend. I am so glad it was offically noted. It powerfully exerts control. Our behavior is relatively MINOR, especially in severe cases of oebsity or sick individuals.
Robin Quivers and Joe Lewis ( Bruc4 Lee’s friend became fat and bloated on cancer drugs, unrecognizeable- so sorry about their situations) The calorie model is a DISGRACE and INSULT to Robin Quivers and the like.
back when Guyenet was more sound he ADMITTED in 2011 that fat cell creation and reguyaltion is a BIOLOGCALLY GOVERNED PROCESS NOT simply voluntary decision or passive effect. Dr. PETER M HOFFMAN TOTALLY AGREES WITH ME, TOO.This IS a DELIBERATE DESCION BY THE BODY TO MAKE MORE FAT CELLS, it is NOT from simple overeating or a passive rsult . He studies this molecular machinery of life that governs cells behavior.
It;s in writing from August 2011 r so where he ACKNOWLEDGED PUBLICLLY TAUBES IS RIGTH ABOUT THAT. Guyenet has changed his tun to SPITE Taubes and seel books. Very, very sad- tragic WASTE of a carreer.
Have you ever watched My 600 pound life? Every episode the people lose like 100 pounds to become eligible for weight loss surgery, and then, after weight loss surgery, their weight loss stalls significantly compared to the rate they were losing BEFORE bariatric surgery. Some even stop losing weight or start GAINING after bariatric surgery!
I am obsessed with My 600-Pound Life. I don’t know whether to laugh or cry watching it. Those poor people. Most of them seem to have some mental illness. They get 1200 calories a day, all protein. For years. The follow up shows available online are very interesting. Some following patients for 2 -3 years. None have reached anything resembling a “normal” body weight/shape. It’s hard to imagine they are not somehow wrecked by the prolonged severe dieting.
The show can be funny (though I guess it’s not really funny) too. I can’t forget the one where Dr. Now accused a very obese lady of cheat eating in the hospital and she fervently denied it. Then when he was looking at her bed sores or something, he goes AHA! And literally pulls out a Doritos bag that was stuck in between her fat rolls.
You gotta have a Doritos stash!
I even e-mailed Dr. Nowzaradin. LOL.
Very , very good point, Matt, about bariatric surgery. You pay attention to the details and are very observant inuitive.
Even the scientific literature is rife with errors especially prominent in the field of obesity science. I have communicated with many physicists and they all state that peer -review is dramatically overstated with regard to its actual importance. (Checking math errors is another issue Peer -review doesn’t even work-research shows this clearly, (former BMJ editor admits this)yet it is kept alive because of TRADITION and because the actual truth and reality of the situation is that scientists are no less stubborn or biased than the average janitor.This is the dirty little secret. The system is often abused for gatekeeping, it never was originally untended for the aninymous reviwer to psss it on whether he agrees with the conclusion or not. But it is used this way a lot. We need to ditch it and come up with better methods.
As Dr. Krauss ssys on video, lots and lots of junk is published every day and much of it passes the “almighty” peer review… It doesn’t mean much. This is why I disliked Sagan. He was an asshat self promoter spewing myths, overstating science. The elite do NOT act like him. They are humble and very unsure
Nature sorts it out anyway If your work meant something, others will build from it.
I know this topic well, Skeptic. Friedman advuses ALL people, ALL, lean or ibese to eat what we think is healthfuk and move. OShea does, too. DOR HEALTH, NOT to treat obesity. O’sShea thinks my ideas are brilliant, he personally told me. He is NOT on the side of your view. I know this for a fact. And he does clearly say in hks article that eat less move mkre is NOT AT ALL how this worls. The immu emsystem can dominate. Austrian scientists and Taubes both noted how people habe MARKED variation is eating amd activity and many will remain the same year in, year out.
Eat less move more is a cutesy nostrum NOT SCIENCE, NOT PHYSICS.Friedman called it an outfated nostrum. Advising exercise and nutrient dense eating is NOT the same as saying it cures obesity. It fails for that.
js NOT how this works. Mindsets will not change I see. Thermodyanmics says NOTHING about fat cell behavior, nothing. Nor does it say anything abiut if the body decides to ravage muscle first.
Plenty of obese people live immaculate lifestyles and remain fat. CHASTAIN IS ONE OF THEML I WOULD BET SHE IS MORE FLEXABLE THAN US.
Taunes bashers are foolish. Lyle is foolish…. DAVID GROSS OF KAVLI INSTITUTE SAID TAUBES IS EXCELLENT IN SCIENCE. DO YOU THINK HE CANNOT JUDGE PHYSICS MATTERS? TAUBES IS FULLY SUPPORTED BY A PHYSJCS NOBEL LEGEND IN GROSS. GROSS BACKS TAUBESX VIEW IF THE INCORRECT ABUSE OF THERMODYNAMICS. I KNOW THIS FOR 100% FACT.
All the Taubes bashers out together are not as smart as David Gross at 50% of his capabilities.. Gross revolutionized oir umderstanding of the strong nuclear force field. Gross says WE DO NOT KNOWMWHAT WE ARE DOING AND ARE MISSING SOMETHING BIG in physics. Same applies to obesity. Obesity is NOT UNDERSTOOD, PLAIN AND SIMPLE.
Urgelt is a very, very smart man. Even healthful diet is not understood, we know tidbits at best. Urgelt sees this and stresses it. Urgeltxs intellect is superior to McDonald’s-vaaaastly superior.
Here is DR. O’SHEA talkign about how “eat less, move more” is N-O-T- how this works:
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/weight-control-immune-system-battles-efforts-of-many-research-1.2775981
My close childhood friend has an immuen disease. It has DOMINATED him in every way fatness wise or should I say super deathly leanness wise. We MUST make our belifs conform the observations of reality.
The body really does have a mind of it as won as Dr. Leibel stressed.”Unfortunately, and we looekd at this 7 different ways up and down back and forth, our research h shows that with regard to body fatness /composition t the body has a mind its own.”
It certanly does. We need more work on it. It is amazing and scary.
Good read, Razzle Dazzle!
Obesity, true obesity, is a DISEASE STATE. The muscles will develop this non-physiological state- as Leibel calls it. A “sympathetic DENERVATION” occurs, he said. He and colleagues are trying to REVERSE this effect, but have failed . It is hard! THIS is what the lay publc needs t o focus on, NOT eat less move more…. The body has many, many involuntary tricks.
Even the amount of food ingestion is largely gbenetic. We have dfood that goes under tyhe radar. That sip of sugary carbon filled soda here and there. NOBODY AS TAUBES MOTES, NOBODY CAN POSSIBLY KEEP TRACK OF THE INVERSE FERMIONS INGESTION VERSUS EXCRTEED OVER A YEAR LET ALONE 10 YEARS YET MANY PEOPEL NEVER CHANGE MUCH,.IN BUILD
OBVIOUISLY INVOLUNTARY. SAME WITH ANIMALS. THEY DO NTO CONSCIOSULY DO ANYTHING. TAUBES HAS HARD, HARD, HARD HITTNG POINTS THAT MKAE GUYENET ET AL UNCOMNFORTABEL FEYNAMN WOULD HAVE SIDED WITH TAUBES MENTALITY NOT LYLE;’S IN SCIENCE, WE SEEK TO PROVE WHAT LAWS ARE WRONG FAST. WE WANT TO PROVE OUTSELVES WRONG. MUCH OF WHAT WE BELIEVE ABOUT OBESITY IS TOALLY, TOTALLY ERRONEOUS PEROGRESS WILL NOT BE FATS.PEOPLE ARE UNWILLING TO CHANGE THEIR MINDSET AND BELIEFS AND ASSUMPTIONS.
EVEN LIEBEL’S MACHINERY IN STUDUES IS APPROXIOMATION, IT IS NOT NEALRY AS ACCURATE AS THE “AUTHROTATIVE AIR”THESE MACHINES MAY GIVE to the common man. We only have primitve GADGETS and mathematics. WE NEED MUCH BETTER.
This state of super chemcial mechanic efficiency. ( Leibel’s words) This is a big reason WHY we do NOT largely control our body fat NAYWHERE NEAR THE DEGREE people ASSUME.
The hardest workign perosn I know is a maid in Ft. Lauderdale, from Haiti. She is very chubby bhut cleans 48 rooms in a day at least 3 days a week or more. Se has help some other days. I do not know any harder of a worker. She eats normally all the times I saw her and she has litle time to actually eat workign from 9 a.ml. until 4p.m.; or 5 or later. Another alsmot eually hardest worker is an Indian lady from India who walsk and walks 2 hours soemtimes, resting on trees . Her oebsity is not even remotely solvd. None of the copmon advbcie worls for oebse peoel TAUEBS CORRECTLY RECOTGNIZES THIAS,. FORGET that he pays sole attention to insulin. Let;s see th BIG PICRTURE The man is SMART, he has done GOOD WORK, much better than his criticizers. taubes got the messaghe out the caloriemodel si WRONG.THIS CHAPS ASSES becvauise obesity is politclaly charged and peopel have silly beleifs about it. I DID, TOO back in 1998 but i HAVE CHANGED. I SAW EVIDENCE FIRSTHAND. Yu can never tell by looking at somebody WHY they are obese. They could work the hardest youi ever sa and remain fat. Poor thyroid, unfortunate genetics, toxic expiosres, lack of sleep, gut microbiota, many reasons. Even VIRISES ARE LINMED.
TYhe LAZIEST person I know is an entitled skinny blond who lives in my neighborhood, sleeps until NOON, varelty raises a finger.
Most people QUIT the workout center memberships DUE TO NOT losing much fat. Thsi is the science. But it is good fr their health. So, they should reconize it likley will NOT lead to fat removal.
However, it is good to lift and move- just not overdone. I got far betetr resuylt slaying int he tropcial Miami sunlight for ghours ( still eating the same on the bwac or after and tonig DOWN exercise) The result was prnoujnced and several friends thought I lost 7 to 10 pounds or so- and it is not like I really had all that much to lose .This was one full week of intense sun exposre at Miami’s latitude- most full body.
Screw working my ass of LOL !!!!!
“the body has a mind of it’s own”, well the body can go f**k itself. I don’t have time to wait 200 years until these bullshit hunches actually lead to something, or more likely they’ll give up and say “we must focus on prevention” like the useless obesity researchers of today. It’s easy for skinny people to say “health at every size” because they don’t have to live in a piece of shit body that’s hurts all the time.
I AGREE. It SUCKS bad. LOL ! Totally.
It royally sucks. I agree wholeheatredly it super sucks.I agre many are useless. I guess it is just very complicated to nail, just like various cancers etc..Luckily my worst was just modestly bigger. I noticed even Michael Jordan;as body changed Wizard years. he carried more msucle and a bit more fat than his Chicago days. My situation was that I carried msucle but a littl emore fat than M. J. a few years ago. As we age, and I am no longer 23 haha! peopel get thcker sometimes. Dave Chappelle got thciker.
We the public have to act and make decisions for ourselves. We MUST enjoy our lives. My best strategy is weightlifting that makes you breathe haaard.
Gurus like Lyle McDonald need to stop blaming and moralizing body composition.Far too many doctors do this, too. From Dr. Friedman , I learned there are many factors even involuntary involved in eating , especially over 20 years- we do not “hear its voice”- factors that could lead to gain this regain. We have modest ciontrol over intake but we cannot control hwo the body handles, partitions or processes food. We also cannot control what is absorbed.If we are sick much of what we eat will not be absored right. Huamns waste a ton of food /fuel anyway- we are not very efficient.
i know that famed physcist, Girard t;Hooft told me that we cannot blame the first law of themrodynamcis for body fat.
The stray few sips or bites of these carbon loaded foods etc. Body fatness regualtion is kind of liek breathing. We can voluntarly temporarliy hod our breath and exert some control but overall this system really can dominate. Just hope for youth, male gender, optimal hormones,. ehalth no diseases- such a person will have the best results.
I would advise ( I have no advcie but if I really was rpessed this is worth a try to have at least a minimal impact) Lizzie Velasquez to kind of push or COAX it in the a direction- her body may or may or may not accept this. I would tell Lizee lift maximal weights 6 reps briefly once a wek, limit overall activity and inducimng heaby breating and fast heart rate and try many snacks throughout the day. may even these drinks to add more carbs, proten and fat. This still liekly would not do much. She may gain a suepr teeny bit of msucle, though… I could not predict or tell.Thuogh the calorie/joule model would *predict *she would gain, the evdience from relaity is that Lizzie cannot gain.
But she is even more extreme than Reggie Miller. Lizzie just cannot gain fat or store it. This will cause health problems.
I was just watching a steroid documentary. It’s sad. The abuse these bodybuilders put themselves through. Nobody can possibly win without steroids in the pros. All those IFBB guys are on them and at doses far higher than a doctor would write for medically (for a typical person 60 or 70 year old suffering with low T)
This shows how much hormones matter for tighness, fat loss and a full muscles that pop. Hormones are sooooo important.
I am totally natural, I just use zinc supplements. I am not a bodybuilder though.Rather, an athlete. My heroes are Bolt, Jordan, Rickson Gracie, Dennis Rodman. They all were great athletes.
This theory sounds plausible to me. It’s impressive work by Grant, and the kind of open-minded thinking from Mr. Stone that we all expect. It neatly explains many aspects of what I observe, and provides a reasonable mechanism, via the liver buffering system, for why modern medical experimentation fails to discover it as a problem. Of course, it could be bollocks in the end, but it seems to me that the benefits of trying it outweigh the inconvenience, as a low- or zero- vitamin A diet still can be varied and satisfying.
If vitamin A is a villain when body stores are full, then it’s worth exploring ways to help the body rid itself of it. Grant hints at a few things, such as taurine and UV light. I have tried both of these in the past, without obvious short-term results, but I was probably still eating a lot of vitamin A at the time.
Given the long healing window that Grant writes about, it would be a significant win, in terms of compliance and simple reduction of misery time, to find ways to improve retinoid tolerance or elimination.
From an intellectual curiosity standpoint, I suspect that there are ways to avoid toxicity even while eating foods with moderate vitamin A. For example, IIRC, the Kitavans eat sweet potatoes as a staple without much evidence of inflammation. Perhaps carotene absorption and metabolism is strongly affected by dietary fat eaten at the same time, and thus high-carotene food consumed with fat might be especially bad. This, of course, is very common in the US, with sides of sauteed veggies and the like.
As for dairy and other high-retinoid diets….I dunno. I’m not aware of a high-retinoid-eating society that escapes all inflammation. For example, I believe the Amish have typical Western rates of heart disease. Could this be from a lack of taurine? They would seem to get more UV exposure than many modern Americans, at least on their arms and face. Or is a steady dose of dairy retinoids just too much of a load to render harmless?
I have always found it interesting that dietary fat seems to be harmful (at least in some cases), yet a high-carb meal is converted into fat in the body. This implies to me that health problems related to dietary fat are not because of the fat per se, but rather something found in the fat, or some side effect of the presence of fat in the digestive tract. Both could be true in this case — too much retinol in dairy fat, or too much absorption of carotene when digested with fat.
For example, one of my favorite foods is salad. If the above is true, then a Westernized salad could be especially harmful, because the leafy greens are extremely high in carotenoids, and are consumed with oil.
In Grant’s Breast Cancer book he mentioned donating blood and exercise as possibly helpful for detoxing A.
Matt – Thx for bringing this idea to our attention. You mentioned that Low VitA helped with your asthma and that beef is the centerpiece. Can you give us some more info on the rest of your current diet and how long it took for you to see some results?
Still figuring that out Rob. I think beef, rice, oats, and peeled, white-fleshed fruits and vegetables with grape juice to drink are probably a pretty good place to start.
I’d say I noticed a slow and steady alleviation of asthma over the first 10 days, and since then it’s been almost completely gone. Occasionally I’ll have a few nights in a row with an extremely slight wheeze late at night, but can’t really figure out why. It may just be from all the charcoal smoke I’m inhaling grilling up beef twice a day on my new Akorn. :)
Your mentioning grape juice makes me think of the people doing grape-only diets (grape fasting?) as advocated by Robert Morse. Some of those folks report all sorts of near-miraculous results — much like many other diets.
I don’t know how they do that for extended periods, though. About three weeks ago, I bought a couple of pounds of red and green grapes and ate them all that same evening. The next morning, I felt like I had a Honey Badger in my colon.
https://youtu.be/4r7wHMg5Yjg
hey Carl you should have seeded and skinned those grapes, haha. What a hassle, but I guess it would be better for us and I couldn’t overeat them because I don’t have that kind of spare time. Can you believe my grandma used to do that for all of us grandkids?
Hi, Joanie: In 1997, I bought a Diana Krall album that included a song titled “Peel Me A Grape.” But, aside from that, I’ve never heard of anyone actually doing it. Your Grandmother should be sainted, for that devotion! I wouldn’t even do that for myself!
Carl,
I had to go listen to that song, haha. Have you heard the 1967 version by Dusty Springfield? Reminds me of what I say to my husband now and then when I am trying to be funny ” Get me some beeerrries.” It was a character on a cartoon, Snagglepuss or something like that and he would always say “Exit, stage right.” when he got into a spot. He had this bossy girlfriend who wanted him to wait on her hand and foot and would always ask for berries with a Bronx?? accent. Yeah, my grandma was such a servant to us brats. We definitely did not deserve her. I think she was afraid we would choke – she sliced them in half too. And I was the queen of choking as a kid. I nearly died from choking on one of those huge jaw breakers – in a hospital waiting room. I was always choking for some reason and my daughter inherited my talent.
Yep, I thought about bringing up the grape fasting in this post. And yeah, I don’t know how they do it. I can digest mountains of fruit fairly well, but even eating constantly and 3,000+ calories per day while laying in bed I’m hungry as hell, dizzy, impotent, and everything else that comes with basically starving to death.
100% agree. I always found it weird that even CICO purists talk about how they didn’t lose the last 15 pounds until they started eating “clean”, as if the moral purity of whole foods changed their body’s mind. Then it hit me: whole plant foods digest poorly, so they’re technically eating less even though they think they’re eating the same amount of calories.
@Matt: wait why are you starving in that example? Is you’re TDEE much higher than 3000, is that what you’re saying?
I have lots of theories as to why people can eat 4,000+ calories of only fruit and still lose weight rapidly. It’s not because it causes hypermetabolism. All signs point to the opposite. I think the main reason is that the body doesn’t absorb the calories from raw fruit in large quantities. So you can eat as much as you possibly can stomach and still waste away.
lol that video is historic!
And, to think, I gave Google hell, when they paid $1.65 billion for YouTube! Now, of course, I realize I was the dummy. You have Diet Coke, I have YouTube. We both need help. haha
Hi Matt,
I didn’t last on rice and beans for 24 hrs. I didn’t want them in the first place, b/c I am very picky and they didn’t appeal, but they tasted good once I ate them. But the next day I saw the beans in the fridge and felt like throwing up. I am not a bean lover and only enjoy bits of meat, and preferably buried in a casserole. I have gotten so that I don’t like anything but a small number of things. I do like oats and rice, with butter and sugar or sweetner. Rice can be ok mixed with beef, so I can deal with that -just no beans. I only like potatoes prepared certain ways. Hate mashed, like browned sliced ones or hash browns in a bit of butter. I can dry fry them in a non stick, but not as good. I read at the website of the Anderson woman she cooks on the highest heat and you grill a lot – so we don’t have to worry about whatever it is “they” say about not doing that?? Cancer or whatever?
Yeah I don’t really eat beans either.
Butter is high in VA, but has it’s benefits. Grant says in his latest book we shouldn’t rule it out of consideration completely:
“Firstly, the butter fats are going to emulsify circulating retinoids, and that’s going to prevent them from immediately causing inflammation and cellular damage. Those fats will also facilitate the accelerated storage of retinoids into the liver. Secondly, the butter fats are going to helps cells to build up and maintain their crucial fatty membranes. So, all-in-all, butter should be very good. But, since butter in North America has quite a high concentration of vitamin-A too, I never dared to experiment with it.”
I’ve been doing this diet for almost 3 weeks now. Overall, I’m definitely feeling more negative effects than positives. The negatives include feeling run down, muscular aches and cramping, dry lips, worsening circulation. But the positives are no asthma for the past two weeks (I normally take the puffer at least every second day, so that’s pretty good), much less waking up with a dry mouth in the middle of the night (even though I’m a chronic mouth breather, and can hardly breathe through my stuffy nose), and around 30% reduction in social anxiety (which I’m pretty stoked about, actually).
So I’m going to persist. Because the negatives can get rather uncomfortable, I decided to try and use butter every now and then, hoping this may sweep up the retinols that are circulating in my body, and it does alleviate the symptoms somewhat.
Since this is all theoretical so far, I’m trying to make sense as to whats going on in my body whilst being on the diet: The body notices little VA from food intake, and takes the opportunity to start dumping retinols from it’s tissues (such as skin) into the serum or blood stream. Presumably, these retinols were being held there previously since it couldn’t be stored in the liver, and needed a secondary accommodation that would cause the least damage. Now that their being released this produces the worsening symptoms that can be mistaken by western medicine as VA deficiency. Hopefully my negative symptoms will go away soon…
Robert, Where I live in the US there is a brand called Kalona Super Natural that had unfortified butter. The label says 2% RDA for A.
Thanks for the tip, Bella. I’m from Australia and none of the butter is fortified with VA here (only margarine). I don’t know what reasoning they could come up with to fortify something that’s already very high in VA. I have to agree with Grant, that the governments sure have alot of arrogance to presume to know what we need. Geesh, the lengths Aagonus went to make raw milk legalised in California, but I get the impression just finding a bottle of pasterised milk that isn’t fortified in America would be a struggle. Is that the case?
Yes Robert, by law all milk except whole milk must be fortified with vitamin A. If you want to drink milk without added vitamin A in the US it’s quite challenging.
Yeah I have no intention of giving up butter. It digests really well and it really helped with my last bout of depression.
Beef is not vitamin A free, in the danish fooddata
https://frida.fooddata.dk/ShowFood.php?foodid=1149
You can see that
Ribeye (entrecote) has 25 RE vitamin A,
and Beef, mince, 15-20% fat has 12 RE VA.
Nutritiondata properly lists beef as 0 VA because they didn’t test for it.
Grant and the Andersen family are on a low Vitamin A diet.
But great to know that it is posible to thrive on a very restricted diet like only beef.
Depends on the diet of the beef. I imagine danish beef isn’t so heavily grainfed as American meat, but I don’t know for sure.
Fascinating subject! On the issue of liver health, I skimmed some comments so I may have missed it but I didn’t notice mention of Alpha Lipoic Acid. I remember reading about how it had been approved to treat the liver in cases of mushroom poisoning and find it surprising that it hasn’t gotten more attention. Here is a link to one site about it. https://www.alphalipoicacid.com/protect-your-liver-with-alpha-lipoic-acid/counteract-liver-damage-from-toxins-with-alpha-lipoic-acid.
I would NEVER take anabolic steriods (designer molecules similar to T) or even testosterone itself, especially for aethetics. These are dangerous drugs.
However, they show the importance of hormones. Steroids can radically change your body. Anabolic steroids can stop the differentiation of fat stem cells, thus making us muscular and lean. This is hormonal. You can lose not a shred of weight, even gain and drop body fat. George St. Pierre to my knowledge is drug free, but even he experienced this when he got a DEXA done.
I support Taubes’ hormonal idea, more so thsn insulin per se. He has it headed in a better direction. That is his achievement and physics legend David Gross admires him. Taubes vreatest contribution is that obesity is not a condition of “energy balance”, a useless, debunked, explanationless buzz word. It is a disease of fat cell dysregulation, governed by hormones.
He has the approximation down well, even if focusing on a single hormone too much. Nobody can be an IFBB pro without the roids. This effect and observation alone should show just how powerful hormones are.
We’ve known this for quite some time, long before Taubes. This information is quite useless if you can’t manipulate the hormones to do your bidding. Leptin is the master fat burning hormone. Experiments of injecting mega doses of leptin did nothing. Turns out the obese already have sky high leptin, but their brains probably can’t register it (leptin resistance). It’s a dead end. Like I said, in the absence of a deficit your body has absolutely no reason or desire to let go of your fat stores.
Deficit is industry talk and promotion. It is not true. Radiation can cause fat loss and directly affect fat tissue (both blue light and also UV that damages mice’s fat pads, surgery liposuction, possibly squooshing fat cells (being looked into)
These various cosmetic injections for chin fat. Radio waves are also used.
Sorry ,Skeptic, “deficits” or more accurstrly carbon atom SHORTAGES DO JOT affect even in normal people stubborn fat under the armpits, chin etc.NO EFFECT from “deficits THAT FAT IS OERMANENTKY ON YOU UNKESS IT IS SURGICALLY removed and it may grow back. Matter is STUFF. Energy deficit is MEANIGLESS gibbldegok. As Taubes and DR. GROSS NITE. TAUBES IS VERY SMART. DAVID GROSS CONCURRS.TAUBES IS MUXH SMARTER than the Internet gurus who bash him.ENEFY CANNOT AND DOES NKT ACT ON YOUR BODY. YOU MUST HAVE A MATTER shortage. Energy ks nkt anything. Matter will not be remived from your body because of some fictional entity.
HORMONES govern fat cells and the release of lipid droplets. Stetoids will take care of a physique. They lean you greater. If otger metjods worked sll pros would have no need for them. Linda Leexs husband Tom Bleecher said Bruce Lee dabbled in steroids. I woukd not put it past him.
The thwarting of fat stem cell differation LEANS us out, NO DEFICIT required. No carbon atom shortage. A mere carbon atom shirtage does NOT AT ALL deal with WHAT TISSUE is lost. Nothing in biology dictates that, nothing in physics certainly. Your own body and its disease state etc. determines what is lost. The body does not want to hang on to muscle in a starvation situation. With ibesity fat js the LAST TO GO, true obesity.
”
Obese people’s fat tissue hoards, they often ravage muscle.HORMINES, STEROIDS GET RESULTS. THIS ALONE SHOULD SQUASH THE DIET INDUSTRY. YES, REAL scie tists know hormines matter A LOT but the diet indutsry who bashes Taubes cannot grasp this. Tsubes RENEWED THE IMPORTNNCE OF HORMONES. He may just focus on insulin too much.
LEPTIN IS NOT A FLOP. I HABE SEEN THE DR. FRIEDMAN LECTURES. IT ALMOST NORMALIZED AN OBESE 7 YEAR OLD BOY. FRIEDMAN DISCUSSES THIS AND IT IS TOTALLY AT ODDS WITH INTERNET MEMES….
Come on Raz, it’s primarily for food storage. Why do bears fatten up before the winter? Are they all catching adenovirus right before winter? Is work at the office especially stressful in the last quarter? Do they all have Velasquez syndrome that only manifests in the winter? Did Bear Cosmo Magazine tell them to be thin for the male bears? This is absurd. It’s for food storage for times of deficit.
Yes, it does produce hormones, but guess what, the purpose of those hormones are to communicate to the hypothalamus how much fat you have stored so it can decide how much to eat.
The problem with obesity is that these systems start acting abnormally, but that doesn’t mean that their purpose wasn’t storage.
Hi Skeptic,
You have some good points here, but I wonder if there isn’t a big difference between storing fat for hibernation and preparing for scarcity. I’m not a scientist but in my casual observations I do not see deer getting fat before winter. Does a bear eat more in the late summer and fall to gain extra fat for winter hibernation? Or does the bear’s body simply store more food as body fat in preparation for hibernation? In other words, does the bear’s metabolism slow down prior to hibernation? I don’t have any idea. But I think it’s possible that humans gaining extra fat and bears preparing to hibernate are two completely different processes. Then again, maybe they are exactly the same. Anyone know?
Yeah they all did lose the weight because the experiment was short term and obviously the aim wasn’t “let’s make a bunch of people obese forever”
The reason the obese can’t easily and permanently lose weight like the ones in the study is because if the complications brought on by obesity, like leptin resistance.
Yes, reversing obesity us not as easy as eat less and move more. Why? Because the body fights back. This doesn’t mean that eating less NEVER works, or fat gain is NEVER caused by overeating. That’s just an absurd and emotional response. It’s just like saying “if the Earth is really round, then why can’t I see the curve?”
Yeah we’re not exactly like bears, who are obligate hibernators, but the point still stands that fat is for storing food for a rainy day. There’s hundreds of animal and dozens of human overfeeding studies where you overfeed them and they get fat. Open and shut case. Common sense.
Where this goes wrong is that your now increased fat stores are supposed to tell your brain, through leptin signalling, to eat less, but this doesn’t work, because in obesity you’re leptin resistant.
The fact that this doesn’t work in obesity doesn’t mean everything else is now false. It just means you’re leptin resistant.
In the overfeeding studies I’ve seen either the subjects were not followed long enough to see what happened in the long run or the subjects lost the excess fat after they returned to their normal diets. It seems like chronic long-term obesity is more difficult to explain. I think for sure if it were as easy as eat less, move more there would be no need for 180D. We would have all resolved our problem a long time ago.
I can accept that overfeeding can cause obesity. I just think there are other causes as well.
I think “energy storage” is only one function of fat cells. Not everyone is fat simply because they eat too much and move too little. There is also the concept that adipose tissue is used to store various pollutants that make their way into the blood stream.
There has long been the theory that if the body cant keep up with detoxification (be it from exposure to external toxins, bacterial byproducts from digestion, or our own metabolic waste), those harmful persistent organic pollutants (POPs) will get stored in adipose tissue as its a safer way to store the toxin until the body has the chance to safely deal with it via the liver and excretory organs.
In particular visceral fat (belly fat) is a key storage place for such pollutants as it a) places the toxins in close proximity to detoxification organs for eventual elimination (as opposed to subcutaneous fat stored in the limbs for example that is made available as an energy resource for working muscles), and b) the suggestion that the majority of toxins come through poor diet and gut inflammation, so the closest adipose tissue to quickly store these POPs is literally around the belly where the body first gets exposed to it.
If an individual builds up “contaminated” fat out of necessity from over exposure to toxins, then whenever that fat is burned (for whatever reason), it will also release any stored toxins back into the blood stream which should result in the body either successfully dealing with the toxin if its able, the re-storing of that same toxin again within alternate adipose tissue, or could even result in a stress response if its becomes immediately harmful increasing cortisol levels which ultimately encourages blood sugars to be stored as fat. I’ve heard it proposed (although not yet seen evidence) that fat cells are intelligent enough to refuse to release energy in the presence of certain toxins within the fat cell. It ultimately suggests that obesity may in some circumstances be the result of an unhealthy body that cannot detoxify itself, rather than simply a metabolic disorder or a lazy over eating lifestyle (although it could easily be suggested such a lifestyle would lead to an unhealthy body that may struggle to detoxify itself adequately).
Having said that, I also believe that leptin resistance is a real thing, but have heard that many people have corrected that resistance by effectively resetting their leptin/ghrelin levels by increasing the amount of “fast” time between dinner and breakfast, eating their last meal of the day by 5pm. The logic in this on top of increasing the amount of time between meals (forcing the body to adapt), is also to remove the necessity for digestion to continue too long into the night and allow the body to focus more on repair functions that take place at different times throughout sleep. I also have reason to believe that this “not eating after 5pm” fasting approach can heal people of type 2 diabetes for the same reasons and have even recently met someone who claims to know of multiple people who have used this approach and had success to correct their type 2 diabetes.
The Romans used lead pipes to move drinking water. They drank out of lead cups and cooked in lead vessels. They used a syrup called “sapa” to sweeten and/or preserve their foods, which was made by boiling grape juice in…. lead pots. They also really liked asbestos. Not only did they use it in their buildings like us, but they also used it for clothing, napkins, towels, and headscarves for women. Why wasn’t there an obesity epidemic in ancient Rome?
Most of the science I found on adipose tissue as a storage space for toxins focuses on Persistent Organic Pollutants (POPs), mainly pesticides (like DDT) and pharmaceuticals, that were invented in the 1940s and banned by the 60s and 70s. Of course they persist in the environment, but the point is adipose tissue evolved millions of years before these very recent chemicals were invented, so it’s unlikely it evolved PRIMARILY (as some people oddly believe) to store away these chemicals.
The primary function of adipose tissue is storing food. Secondary functions include padding, insulation, generating body heat (through BAT), and some hormone production. The fact that it nowadays stores toxins is likely due to the lipophilic nature of the toxins. There’s no evidence (yet) that your body fat will increase to accommodate increased exposure. One paper I read concluded “It is unclear whether increased adiposity is a direct effect, as suggested by in vitro studies, or an indirect effect mediated by metabolic disruption elicited by certain POPs”.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3569688/
Which makes sense because if you think about it, how do skinny people deal with these chemicals? The small amount of fat they have just has more concentrated toxins, but it does the job just as well. Don’t forget that the skeleton also absorbs toxins, especially heavy metals. If increasing adipose tissue for better “detox” was a thing, then the morbidly obese would outlive everyone and have less disease, which is the opposite of reality .
Ok, let’s take a step back: what do you think the role of your fat is? Is it not primarily about storing excess “carbon” so you can use it at times of scarcity (a deficit)?
Hell no. The role of fat tissue is to be an ENDOCRINE ORGAN. This is well known to Dr. Friedman and other too scientists who stufy thjs. Fat is an endocrine organ. It also serves as a resevoir but IT IS A VERY, VERY BIOLOGICALLY ACTIVE, ACTIVE ENDOCRINE ORGAN FIRST AND FOREMOST
The creation of fat cells is NOT A PASSIVE process, it is deliberate decision. Thermodynamics says NOTHING about your body’s DECISION TO CREATE FAT :versus shuttke food to muscke rissue or repair. Peter &Hoffman noted that. It is nkt the result of simply activity or eating. It is a deliberate biologically regukated process. Guyenet AGREES WITH TAUBES ABOUT THJS AS HE PENNED AN ARTICLE IN 2011.
Drugs will eventualky help the right hormonal signals to let fat cells DISENGORGE. No deficit of a fictiinal non entity. No carbon shortage needed either.
With obesity fat cells HOARD. This is not a deficit problem. This is a CLOGGING OF SORTS. Guyenet once made progress weiting an article about this clog when he was clear headed. Hooefully, progress will be made, he is more polite to Tau es and tries to think. They should team up. Both agree it is neuroendocrine hormonal disorder/diseases. The disagreement recentky is that Guyenet bekueves Taubes focuses tooooo muxh on thjs ONE hkrmine to the neglect of the COCKTAIL of hormomes involved.
I can name him, BUT THE BEST in thermodynamics of life persinally told me obesity is NOT a thermodynamics problem. People saying that are idiots and they do not like that Taubes recognizes their idiocy for abusing physics. Lyle and CarbSane lead this March.Taubes is just a MUCH SMARTER GUY than Aragon, McDonald or Coloo, or CarbSane, the lowest I.Q. of all. LOL.
The problem is that many obese people are leptin-RESISTANT. They are not deficient, that is why leptin theraoy has not helped many. But in the obese who are not resistant, it DID WONDERFULLY HELP THIS 7 YEAR OLD BOY. Does Guyenet ever mention this, he isma very misinformed soul for an official researcher.
Leptin affects virtually ALLLLLL THE BODY’S SYSTEMS.That is how important it is.
Leptin affects :
Reproductive system,
INSULIN (STRONGLY),
IMMUNE SYSTEM
Entire neuroendocrine system as well
Fat tisue itself is an endocrine organ. Leptin, a hormone. Fat tissue is powerfully governed by hormones.
We need to GETT OFF this energy balance kick. It is nonsense just like Taubes. If Taubes went against “physics”, David Gross woukd not support him strongly and admire him. Do you knkw who David Gross IS?.He revolutiinized oir understanding of the STRONG NUCLEAR FORCE. QCD, ONE OF THE TIGHTEST MODELS IN SCIENCE. THE BEST OF OUR THEORIES.
By the way, as Dr. Krauss (another suoerb physicist who knkws Gross) says on video the physics of BIOLIGY MAY VERY WELL BE DIFFERENT from the physics and principles that govern galaxies , planets and the chair you’re sitting in.
Again, CONTRARY to the nonsense you hear online from Guyenet, Aragon, Colpo etc. and other b@llsh@t memes:
Leptin therapy WORKS W-O-N-D-E-R-F-U-L-L-Y in obese people and mice and other animals who are leptin DEFICIENT and some are, quite a few. Most , though, are leptin-RESISTANT.
I have talked to Dr. Friedman for years. I know this topic.
Obesity is NOT ABOUT “ENERGY” BALANCE. It ks a complex neuroendocrine hormonal disorder. All genuine scientists know this much. The calorie model is onky perpetrated by SALESMEN.
Aragon admitting his belived calorie model is very wrong is bad for business. Privately, I think he knows this or he implies it.
STEROIDS MAKE A WORK, A WORLD of differende. I am not promoting them, they are dangerous! BUT THEY WORK, REALLY WORK. THEY TURN PEOPLE INTO SHREDDED MONSTERS who have done the same workouts to no avail for years. GAME CHANHERS. EVERY SINGLE IFBB PRO USES THEM. I know several pro bodybuilders, one natural, one non-natural. STEROIDS WORK MUCH BETTER THAN ANY “DEFICIT”.Carbon deficit. Fat tissue behaves mysteriously often. Deficits are no sure way. Muscle could be lost.
can’t seem to tell the site to stop sending me the link…can Matt or someone stop sending me this email link.
Thanks.
@John: don’t worry, it’ll start going to your junk mail eventually lol, that’s where I read ’em ????
Still waiting for that to happen::)
Cancer patienrs getting fatter on drug treatments, Lizzie Velasquez who cannot gain even a little fat despite eating every 30 minutes, observations of severe obesity in destitute poverty areas around the world,
LIPODYSTROPHY (ask Lyle the foolish salesmen if they are supposed to eat more, move less, by lazy for their upper bodies(emaciated , whilst eating less, exercising like a maniac for their lower extremities.(very obese)
Thank God there are quite a few researchers on PubMed (not affiliated with Taubes or David Ludwig ) ADMITTING this calorie model is very wrong and is the reason why zero progress has been made. If ibesity is to be treated effectively, NEW METHODS OF INWUIRY, NEW CREATIVE QUESTIINS, NEW TREATMENTS must be used. The first step is admitting we do not yet understand this MYSTERY.
As Feynman ssid, “If allll those previously used methods actually worked (to find a new theory -Dirac gussed math equations, Einy used imagination, visual, symmetries, Heisenberg used measurementzall different methods were used by these physicists), we would have ALREADY gone on through there.” Any new theory, new invention or discovery is a time where history has not repeated itself.
There is no such method as THE scientific method, elite ohysicists understand this We tell kids so many lies in school.(That 7th grade step by step poster is utter crappy nonsense. Serendipity plays a big role, too.
David Gross,of the Kavli Institute for Theoretical Physics (KITP) is one of the greatest living physicists in the world. His Nobel Proze winning work with Wikzcek on QCD, the theory of the strong nuclear force, approaches the work Einstein did in terms of IMPORTANCE. That Weinberg and David Gross think HIGHLY of Gary Taubes must royally chap the butts of Lyle,Aragon, Guyenet, CarbSane and the rest of those clowns. Gross’ support for Taubes is a MAJOR FEATHER in Taubes’ cap. The man is not stuoid. He is being portrayed as suxh by low intelligence bloggers like Guyenet et al.
Quantum mechanics is being challenged by Roger Penrose. Penrose, Weinberg, Lee Smolin-all of these top physicists are NOT nearly as happy with quantum mechanics anymore. Yes, it could be wrong. There are NO LAWS in sciende, NI SACROSANCT law like Lyle and his fans believe. In fact, it js a PROBLEM that the conservation of this number, energy, cannot even in PRINCIPLE be shwin wring beca.use yiu coukd engage in “REINDEER GAMES ” and tricks to oreserve it. Google search : David Deutsch conservation if energy constructor theory due to some other effect”. Thkse mix and match words will reveal an article where he DEMONSTRATES all the ways one cou,d UNSCRUPULOUSLY SAVE it if it is wrong. It is unfortunate that the situation is kind of like Rule #1 The landlord is ALWAYS EIGHT and IF he hapoens to be wrong, refer back to Rule #1
We a,ready live in a universe where energy is NOT CONSERVED on the vast global scale- AS SEAN CARROLL WRITE ABOUT GOOFLE SEAN CARROLL ENERGY IS NOT CINSERVED FEBRUARY 2010″
We onky habe very fallibke models, theories in science. Laws are NOT ABOVE theories.
Google “Paul Lutus thermodynamics is a THEORY NOT law. Guyenet and McDonald either use expressions like , “It’s the law, kids.”. THAT IS INVALID and the product of an uneducated laymen , ignkrant journalist ot dopey blogger. That js a dead giveaway….
Such words and phrases as “it’s a scientific LAW” are not inky wrong, but MEANT TO PUMMEL IGNORAMUSES, said Paul Lutus, NOT INFORM THINKERS. I just laugh and ignore Guye et’s and Lyle’s misuse of science models, inferring they are sacrosanct laws . Physics is NOT DONE BY FIAT, as Dr. Krauss STRESSES in lectures on YouTube.. Just 10 years ago, physicusts were certain the total energy (a number) of the unuverse was zero. IT IS NIT. WE KNKW THIS TODAY. WHAT IS CINSIDERED FUNDAME TAL TODAY, CHANGES.
This calorie crap is NOT sacrosanct, NOR a law.nkr do calorirs POWER any body as Kyke thinks…Laughable. Calories, ergs, they are fictitious. ATP, MOLECULE, STUFF POWERS US, NOT FICTIINAL ENERGY. FUEL DOES. ELECTROMAGNETIC FORCE GOVERNS CHEMICAL REACTIONS. Letls clear that up right away. CI/CO IS NONSENSE, FITNESS I SPDUSTRY CUTESY SPEAK. ENergy balance js a BUZZWORD, CRAP as Taubes notes. If you were in equilibrium you woukd be DEAD. NONE OF US ARE EVER IN THERMODYNAMIC EQUILIBRIUM ALIVE. Q.M. AND Einy’s G.R, ARE MORE FUNDAMENTAL THAN THERMODYNAMICS, as Weinberg said. Today, we have issues with BOTH.
NO SUCH “LAW” exists,as CI/CO. THIS IS NOT “PHYSJCS”… it is rhe ABUSE of cinservation of energy, this number. Abuse by the diet industry.
THIS IS NOT HOW FAT CELLS BEHAVE. Srop listening to Taubes basjers, they are physucs illiterate idiots abusing it. More Gross, Polchinski, Weinberg, LESS CarbSane.
Sorry for sloppy typing on my brother’s r
Tablet from work. Better get back ro my duties.LOL.
And now, Lyle McDonald…
https://youtu.be/gV1_NjZPUA8
What in the everloving fuck did I just watch Carl?
I mean, the dog porn thing was fine. I’m more concerned about the denim shorts. I find denim shorts DEEPLY DISTURBING.
Rumor has it he may pair those shorts with a crop top.
I’m not exactly sure, but, after seeing that, I had to smoke a cigarette, shower, and phone my therapist.
Matt I’m an open minded guy like you and I find the idea interesting.
This article is deceptive though. You mention the Andersen family here and imply that they are following a vitamin A free diet intentionally and subscribe to idea which has lead to the health benefits and results they have experienced. At least that was the impression I got from the article.
I looked them up afterwards and have found no mention or connection with them to a vitamin A free diet, only that they are zero carb and eat only beef since they have had poor reactions to other zero carb foods.
Here is two links that mention them with no mention whatsoever of anything about vitamin A:
https://thenortheasttoday.com/anderson-family-on-meat-diet-for-17-years/
http://meatheals.com/2018/02/04/charlene-andersen/
They may coincidentally be on a no vitamin A diet but that doesn’t seem to be their actual intention and it should be noted that they are also on a zero carb diet.
If we were to take the Andersen’s as an example here, that would mean either to claim that zero carb is the way to go or that at the very least it has no harmful or detrimental effects so long as you are avoiding vitamin A, least if we are talking about their individual case.
What do you think about that?
I just wanted to point this out cause the article makes it seem like they are people following a vitamin A free diet, when really they are just people eating zero carb who coincidentally happen to also have no vitamin A in their diet as a unintended side effect from what I can tell from looking them up.
That’s also different from the diet you describe in the article which does have carbs in it.
Are we talking about zero carb and no vitamin A here, or with carbs and no vitamin A, and do you feel like the distinction matters?
I had thought the book on zero carb got shut a long time ago.
I think they, along with many other public health figures these days (Shawn Baker, the Peterson family), have incidentally stumbled into a no vitamin A diet. I brought them up as evidence that a human can eat a diet without vitamin A for two decades without apparent ill effect. If there were others that were on a long-term vitamin A free diet other than zero carbers, I would have brought them up. But only zero carb grainfed beef-only eaters are eating a truly extremely low/near zero vitamin A diet. So there aren’t many examples to use. But it’s interesting that “eat beef drink water” seems to the mantra for those having miraculous results conquering autoimmune disease lately, the primary focus of Grant’s work.
On the other end of the spectrum are those consuming only grapes (a very low vitamin A food) for long period of time reporting similar miracle cures, via the recommendations of Robert Morse.
I didn’t mean to celebrate zero carb as the be all end all, rather, show that maybe the removal of vitamin A is indeed the mechanism behind their success with autoimmune disease and other inflammatory conditions, vindicating Grant’s work, and hopeful that more than beef ribeye can be on the menu while achieving the same, if not better, results.
The problem with this analysis, Matt, is that if you look into their stories, you’ll find that they reacted to all sorts of things that have little or no Vitamin A in them. If it was really Vitamin A that was causing their problems, they would never have been backed up into the corner of an all beef & water diet.
Also, being on a Vitamin A deficient diet for a year should have fixed the issue, according to Grant’s theory. But it clearly hasn’t. They’ve had to remain on this extreme elimination diet to stay symptom-free.
A side comment about the meat-and-water-only diet, though not necessarily related to Vitamin A.
Jordan Peterson stated, on Joe Rogan’s show, that when he and his daughter Mikhaila have tried to reintroduce other foods, it’s been “catastrophic.” I think that’s something that Charlene Andersen has also reported.
Talk about being backed into a corner with diet. But, I guess if someone is able to resolve a bunch of severe health issues (depression, autoimmune, etc.), then I guess the trade-off is worth it.
I just wonder what else, if anything, is happening that we may not know about.
Joe and Charlene Andersen’s 20-year odyssey is certainly interesting. And, perhaps even more so, I hope to learn more about how their two boy progress. Though, again, we don’t know what’s really happening inside their family.
I’ve wondered about lectins. A meat-and-water diet would have zero, and lectins are supposed to be linked to various autoimmune disorders.
Hard to know what to make of the “catastrophic” responses to other foods. Could be psychologically mediated. Or maybe their bodies are so healthy and they are so attuned to anything being “off” that even the beginnings of inflammation feel catastrophic — as opposed to people who have so much ongoing inflammation that they wouldn’t notice a little additional.
Yeah I’m reading Plant Paradox right now, as I figured that’s probably the likeliest competing theory for Grant’s vitamin A theory.
I’m reminded of something that Matt and Dr. Garrett Smith discussed (shameless plug) in their book:
Solving the Paleo Equation: Stress, Nutrition, Exercise, Sleep
https://amzn.to/2wPOVZ0
It’s been many months, since I last listened to it. But, they were giving an example of people who go on a low-carb diet for a long period. Then, when they try to reintroduce carbs, they have a ‘reaction’ that makes them proclaim “See?! This PROVES that I can’t tolerate carbs! Carbs are evil!”
But, instead, it’s more often the case that their digestive machinery needs some time to acclimate to the dietary changes.
In the book, I believe they used the example of lifting weights. If a person hasn’t ever lifted weights (or, perhaps not lifted them in a long while), then doing so will cause their muscles to become sore. Not because lifting weights is bad. Rather, it’s the body’s response to the stress.
As they also state in the book: “Running away from the solution leads you right back to the problem.”
I’m not sure if all this can be applied to the Petersons and the Andersens, but it’s what came to my mind.
Dr. Gundry, the main anti-lectin dude, recommends avoiding grain fed beef because they’re fed corn, which is very high in lectins, and so the meat is too as a result. Since Charlene eats only grain fed meat, I doubt she’s eating a low lectin diet.
I suspect that grain-fed cows don’t get loaded up with lectins like non-ruminant animals, but that’s just a guess.
I doubt it too, and pretty much everything else he says really. As usual when it comes to anything anti-carb (and recently anti-plant), the existence of the Blue Zones take a steamy dump on any such theories. It also doesn’t help that he sells magic potions such as “Lectin Shield” lol for 80$ a bottle.
I think fermentation of fiber is where it’s at when it comes to this topic. That’s why avoiding all plants works for these people with compromised guts. But then again, there’s vegans who have cured gut/autoimmune disease so go figure.
There’s also the bile acids stuff that Nick the Noo mentioned. I still don’t understand it fully but it seems like too much bile acid in your gut leads to diarrhea, and too little leads to constipation when it comes to IBS. Soluble fiber has an effect on bile acids. Gah! There’s too many things at play! ????
I’m surprised you’re reading Gundry’s book. Given the hundreds of books you’ve read over the years, there must have been something compelling about Gundry’s book.
I’ve watched many YouTube interviews of Gundry and decided against buying his audiobook. As you know, he goes on about olive oil.
“The purpose of food is to get more olive oil into your mouth.”
In fact, he recommends consuming 12 Tablespoons (36 teaspoons, 6 ounces, 177.4 ml) of olive oil daily.
Googling “dr gundry is wrong” leads to counterpoints from folks like Dr. Michael Greger and Dr. Joel Kahn.
Googling “dr gundry olive oil” leads to some videos on the subject.
But, again, maybe “The Lectin Avoidance Diet” (as discussed on Joseph Cohen’s SelfHacked.com website) is therapeutic for some people in some situations.
I can’t imagine guzzling all that olive oil, any more than I can imagine guzzling glasses full of urine — even if it was accompanied/disguised by food.
But whether he’s right or wrong about that, Gundry’s biz has 86 complaints against it with the BBB…
Anyone guzzling glasses full of urine would surely be shitting brix!
Good investigative work on Dr. Hannibal Lectin and his 86 complaints with the BBB. I should go read a few, just to see what folks have to say.
I had watched an interview with Mikhaila last month after running into more and more of the zero carb stuff. She had such severe arthritis as a kid she had to have 2 joint replacements as a teen. She also suffers, like her dad, from severe depression. She describes doing an elimination type approach to eating and ended up eating meat only because everything else caused joint pain or depression. Pretty cut and dried in her case. I watched an interview with Kelly Hogan last night who has been eating zero carb 9 yrs and for 5 yrs before that only low carb veg with her meat, eggs, and cheese. She did this to lose 130 lbs because her doctor told her to. He was surprised she did it. She talks about how even with the small amount of carbs she could not keep from gaining weight without living in a gym and how cheese triggered her to eat too much. She feels this is the only way she can have a normal relationship with food ( her appetite is normal and she can eat as much as she needs and not work out)- even though that certainly doesn’t sound normal to most. I understand her. I have a problem when I eat certain fatty carbs. Because my son has had to eat a plant based, low fat, low protein diet for 3.5 yrs we tried to eat that way, too. I would never eat like normal vegans because I don’t like plates of dry starch and a lot of other fat free stuff ( I cannot eat much fat, I do like a bit). In frustration I would eat a fruit meal many days until dinner time and then eat one of the few meals I did like. Those meals were dry fried hash browns and dry fried spaghetti ( my grandma’s German thing) or rice ( fried till crunchy, had to be crunchy and topped with ketchup). I would puff up and gain a little weight even if I was not eating that many calories, and be tired. I found my blood sugar was higher than normal. Oh, great. I would obsessively eat those foods and crave carbs with fat – like bread and butter, even crackers with butter and I would eat this stuff at night and feel even more bloaty and horrible. Then, it led to mcdonalds French fries and I could NOT stop finding an excuse to eat them. What broke this cycle was low carbing and I never did it for long because I don’t really like those foods either. But it would take me days to get myself to do the low carb and give up the junk. The low carb diet would turn my appetite for this stuff off like a switch and I would have a normal appetite. Because there are several diets going on here at home I would be easily led astray and say “forget the stupid lowish carb.” and also due to sometimes not having time to cook myself something different. I have trouble committing to anything because of all the varieties of foods around here and the fact it seems all of us do better on different things. For me and the list of issues I have it would be harder to correlate something I ate with a problem than for Mikhaila. I have several autoimmune disorders and a few really aggravating issues. If I could stick with something long enough I could probably see some cause and effect. A person has to be mentally and emotionally ready to do something like that. I am much closer than I used to be to doing it – and probably I would choose to do the meat only thing since I don’t want blood sugar issues ( could be cortisol), but I get scared about low carb a Ot times. It might do this or it might do that. But, something that really struck me was that more of these zero carb women are having healthy pregnancies and children. Kelly has 3 children and was pregnant before anyone was talking much about such a dietary approach and she was scared. But look at me – ate a varied diet and my kids are all sick in some way. Eating this way for 14 yrs or 17, having healthy babies along the way, and having good bloodwork and looking healthy makes me feel less afraid to try it.
See, energy does not exist. Inverse fermiins do not exist. Calories do nkt exist. Energy is NOT some nebulous invisible entity like the umeducated Lyle McDonald crowd erroneously think/believe. Physicistsb
are veey clear on this.
Fat tissue is matter, atoms, stuff. It cannot disappear or be excreted and removed from your body due to some NUMERICAL CALCULATION.
Lizzie Velasquez cannot gain or store fat. This has nothing to do with an imaginary deficit of a totally fictitious imaginary non-entity (calories). She eats and eats to no avail, gorging on carbon atoms and other atoms.
In the future DRUGS, DRUGS WILL CAUSE THKSE FAT CELLS TO DISENGKRGE. NO ATOM SHORTAGE NECESSARY.
Fat removal has to do with what regulates fat tissue-many variius hormomes. Only stuff can affect stuff. Energy CANNOT affect STUFF.
The dieting industry =FRAUD, LIES, ABUSE/MISUSE OF PHYSICS.
Even Muata Kamdibe admitted to me privateky that NONE of these formulas work. I see progress. Guyenet is being more polite to Taubes. The onky potential problem with Taubes’ presentation js the focus tooo much on this one particular hormines when MANH are involved.
I cannot stress enough that the energy topic is abused by cranks very often. I cannot stress enough that “energy” is a human invented accounting trick, NOT ANYTHING WHATSOEVER ITSELF. Energy is not ANYTHING, in short and that ks DIRECTLY FROM PERIMETER INSTITUTE PHYSICUSTS ANSWERING QUESTIONS ON QUORA. Colpo, McDonald , CarbSane are lying to people and cannot refute the best physicists who agree with me fully. Energy is not, itself ANYTHING. STRICTLY A NUMBER.
Energy and its unkts do NOT exist like radii waves ormuktraviolet radiation exists. Lyke CANNOT GRASP this so he writes hokey, artickes bashing me. He js the true dumbass.
@Energy is NOT some entity in Nature.Nor are calories, nor ergs etc.
McDonald has HORNSWAGGLED A GENERATION OF RUBES.
Google search : “Made Of Energy Or Made Of NONSENSE”
Here’s some support for Genereux’s theory. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16469975 The authors say:
The acute and chronic effects of vitamin A toxicity are well documented in the literature. Emerging evidence suggests that subtoxicity without clinical signs of toxicity may be a growing concern, because intake from preformed sources of vitamin A often exceeds the recommended dietary allowances (RDA) for adults, especially in developed countries. Osteoporosis and hip fracture are associated with preformed vitamin A intakes that are only twice the current RDA. Assessing vitamin A status in persons with subtoxicity or toxicity is complicated because serum retinol concentrations are nonsensitive indicators in this range of liver vitamin A reserves.
More support for Genereux’s theory: https://www.revolvy.com/topic/Hypervitaminosis%20A&item_type=topic. The authors say:
“Vitamin A toxicity is known to be an ancient phenomenon; fossilized skeletal remains of early humans suggest bone abnormalities may have been caused by hypervitaminosis A.”
It’s interesting to me that researchers who talk about hypervitaminosis A blame it on taking too many supplements. But obviously early humans were not popping Vitamin A pills. Also, researchers say its virtually impossible to OD on beta carotene. I have my doubts about that. It’s possible that those early humans were eating too much liver or liver from animals such as polar bear and seals. Is it also possible that they were eating plants high in beta carotene?
Lol I wonder how the carnivores would react to that, since they think everyone before 10,000 b.c. (agriculture) were these 6’4” jacked ubermenschen who had no diseases whatsoever
@PaulS: just finished the protein cycling book. Do you follow this diet yourself?
I liked the book and it’s another confirmation of the idea that everything should be cycled. That was the norm until we invented agriculture.
My only concern is Bruce Ames’ triage theory…
@Skeptic: well I don’t really follow a specific diet. The main thing is that I don’t feel the need to eat ‘balanced’ meals. I mostly shift my protein consumption towards the end of the day.
I don’t believe in bodybuilding style diets: “eat protein every 3 hours to avoid muscle catabolism”. Catabolism serves a useful purpose, as Mignery explains. We need to cycle between catabolism and anabolism.
I looked at Bruce Ames. His theory is mostly about long term deficiencies. Protein cycling is a short term theory.
If you combine the theories, you can explain why vegans feel great to start with and then crash. In the beginning they benefit from protein restriction, but the nutrient deficiencies catch up with them long term.
That’s not enough to induce autophagy. You have to go a whole day with 5% protein or less, and then the next day not eat protein until lunch or dinner to benefit from this. And he recommends 3 days of protein cycling per week.
He acknowledges that this might lead to deficiencies so he recommends supplements, but this is bad advice because a) supplements suck, and b) anti-oxidants have been shown to block autophagy, so that defeats the purpose of protein cycling in the first place.
Protein restriction is not the only thing that promotes autophagy. I think that exercise, especially high intensity exercise also pronotes autophagy.
If you build in an exercise routine prior to eating protein, I think that you can accelerate the process.
Also, as far as supplements go you could include things like eggs, organ meats and liver as part of the feast phase of this diet in order to increase your nutrient intake.
Once again, I find myself almost wishing for a giant asteroid to hit the planet. Things seem to be getting more absurd every day.
I just saw a TV listing for an infomercial with Josh Axe and Jordan Rubin. *Groan* Axe is popping up everywhere and definitely seems to be on the same track as Hyman. Rubin has been at this for a long time now. He has his “degrees” from non-accredited correspondence programs and was ordered to stop making unsubstantiated claims (and had to pay back some money in consumer redress).
Would you say you have an AXE to grind, turtlegurl?
I’m with you on the giant asteroid. If it happens, we should all go out together. I just hope there’s enough time for us to make it to our compound in New Mexico. I plan to inflict major dietary insult on my digestive system, prior to being obliterated.
So, “Dr.” Axe is going to “star” in an infomercial with Jordan Rubin. I’m not sure if that’s a step forward or backward for Dr. Ass.
He and his ilk REALLY get under my skin, with all the stuff they peddle. I bet he’s making a ton of money, too. There’s so many of these Integrative/Functional Medicine people making the rounds on the usual circuits.
http://healthtalksonline.com/event-calendar
Maybe some people are getting help from them. I sincerely hope so. But, I’m one that sunk a lot of money into the Integrative/Functional Medicine with little benefit.
The following meme made me think of “Dr.” Rhonda Patrick:
https://bit.ly/2oVvCJY
Dr. Axe has gotta be JOSH-ing us lol
Hey I like Rhonda lol, at least her “Dr.” Is a PhD and not an online chiropractor course. Bruce Ames was her mentor. Her podcasts are pretty good, especially if you’re into fasting, TRE and circadian stuff. She loses points for being a tater hater tho ????????
haha. True enough, regarding her PhD.
I just find it annoying when people have to announce their title. “I’m Dr. so-and-so.” Really, I don’t think anyone with a PhD should be able to refer to themselves as a “Doctor.” I’d prefer if we had an alternate title for PhDs. But, that’s just my pet peeve.
Rhonda seems like a greenhorn that’s all-too-eager to jump on popular bandwagons and speak with more certainty and authority than is likely warranted. I know she’s popular on Joe Rogan’s podcast and I see many of her sycophants kissing her feet in YouTube comments about how brilliant and hot she is. I bet she drinks Bulletproof Coffee.
I don’t really know much about Bruce Ames, beyond hearing part of him being interviewed by Rhonda. I couldn’t listen to her anymore, so maybe I can find him interviewed elsewhere.
The fact that you like her information, though, is making me consider giving her more of a chance. You’ve clearly watched and read a lot of stuff from a lot of people.
Matt: If you happen to see this comment, have you any opinion of DOCTOR Rhonda Patrick?
Other than seeing her little Joe Rogan thumbnail a million times and never watching it, I don’t know much about Rhonda. But I’ll try to check her out when I get a chance.
I certainly wouldn’t delay other things (e.g. cleaning-out belly button lint) to go research her. But, if you do, your insights are always appreciated.
Carl — I don’t want to alarm you, but your future wife has a Ph.D. And the worst part? I will expect you to address me as “Doctor”. At ALL times. (“Would you please pass the salt, Doctor?”). Hee hee.
Seriously though, getting a Ph.D. (a real one, from an accredited university) is a helluva lot of work —- especially in applied fields, where you have to do not only endless amounts of research and academic work and your thesis and your dissertation but also tons of practical work, too.
And I think it’s generally true that Ph.D.s have more years of education than an M.D. who works as a general practitioner. And I feel like the stress of getting a Ph.D. shaved 20 years off of my life expectancy; I definitely would not do it again. From my perspective, anyway, the title of “doctor” is well earned.
But maybe we need to come up with new titles for some professions, to avoid confusion for the consumer? M.D., Ph.D., D.C., D.D.S., Ed.D., D.O., et al ALL have doctoral degrees. But maybe only practitioners who work directly on the body should be called “doctor”? That would mean some physicians, dentists, and — as much as it pains me to say it — chiropractors. A few are good, but that profession seems to have tons and tons and tons of quacks. (Hmmmm. “Quacks” rhymes with “Axe”.)
I’m open to ideas for Ph.D. titles. Is “Your Excellence” taken? If so, “Your Majesty” would be OK.
Dr. turtlegurl,
I’ll happily address you in any way you wish!
Perhaps a hybrid title such as “Your Royal Highness Doctor turtlegurl the Most Excellent, Ph.D.”?
I was trying to work the phrase “Sexy Pants” in there, too, but the title became impractically long for you to sign every time it’s required.
On a serious note, it truly wasn’t my intent to insult you or any other legitimate Ph.D.s. So, I sincerely apologize.
My girlfriend (this *is* an open marriage, right?) is also a Ph.D., so I have some peripheral knowledge of what she endured. As a university professor for over 30 years, she’s continually referred to as “Doctor” by students and faculty.
For her, the title isn’t a point of contention. When she’s met friends and family members of mine, she never uses (or, even mentions) her academic title or accomplishments – which are many. Rather, she just uses her name.
So, my previous comments were, as noted, simply my own pet peeves — opinions — about:
1. People feeling the need to announce their title (the recent story about the lady on Qantas Airlines also influenced my comment about this point)
2. The many disciplines referred to as “Doctor”
It certainly had nothing to do with the amount of work, sacrifice, time, money, and mental, physical, and emotional stress required to obtain a legitimate Ph.D.
As for alternate titles for the many folks who have earned the title of “Doctor,” admittedly, I don’t have a good solution.
The first doctoral degree was awarded around 1150 and the first medical doctor degree was awarded in 1703. So, clearly, doctoral degrees beat MDs by 553 years.
However, for better or worse, the term “Doctor” seems to have mostly been hijacked by those in the medical profession.
[Example: In a crowded room, if someone fell unconscious and someone called-out for a “Doctor,” I believe it’s understood they’re not referring to a Doctor of Philosophy.]
Thus, when discussing health-related matters and people refer to themselves as “Doctor” (e.g. “Dr.” Axe), I believe more clarity is needed, because the title may confer more confidence than is warranted. That may mean clarifying whether they’re an M.D., N.D., Ph.D., etc. – and, where their degree was earned.
Finally, once again, I apologize to you and all other legitimate Ph.D.s for the comments in my previous post. I meant no harm or insult. The title of “Doctor” is one that is hard-earned and well-deserved.
Sincerely,
Carl, Non-Ph.D.
Carl — re: whether this is an open marriage: I certainly hope so! That’s the assumption I’ve been operating under. Hopefully, Matt & Skeptic are on board with all that, too. Life at the compound is going to be fantastic.
No worries on the previous post! I, too, get very annoyed at those people who go around announcing their title everywhere (dentist office, restaurants, social situations, calling into a radio show). I find myself wondering why they think that’s the most important or interesting thing about them.
One time, when I was being prepped for a surgical procedure, the nurse asked me what I did for work. When I told her, she seemed flustered and said, “Oh…I..I didn’t realize it was Doctor(turtlegurl).” I said that it wasn’t a problem at all and that there was no reason I would have mentioned it in such a setting, anyway. She said that I would be surprised at how many people do announce their credentials at the outset of that situation! I was floored. And probably some of those insecure people have berated her for not properly acknowledging their *importance*.
And yes, if someone loses consciousness in a public place and people are saying “Is anyone here a doctor?!”, they’re probably not expecting someone to say, “Yes, I’m a geologist”. lol
I totally agree with you about the need for clarification of what kind of doctoral degree and where the person got their education. Transparency is good protection for the consumer, and there are too many practitioners who take advantage of the lack of clarity.
In that vein, I think there needs to be a lot more transparency re: the multitude of various initials people can put after their name when they’ve taken a weekend workshop. It’s misleading, at it suggests extensive schooling and experience.
In your last paragraph, you had 2 words that sound like a great title: “legitimate Ph.D.”. Maybe even “Legit Ph.D.”. I actually like that a lot. Similarly, “Non-accredited Correspondence Course D.C.”, etc. (I know, I should stop picking on chiropractors. But they’ve taken sooooooo much of my money over the years, and I know so many who practice waaaaay outside their limits of competence. Ya know?)
Yeah no doubt that part of her success in the public domain is due to the fact that she’s easy on the eyes.
I mainly follow her because her, Satchin Panda and Lagakos were the OGs of time restricted eating and circadian stuff, and I’m interested in those. If that’s not your cup of tea then don’t bother looking up more of her content. Her diet is low carb, and that seems like a pattern with people who fast because they argue that if you’re fat adapted, the fasting part feels easier. That could be true but I’ll never know coz I gotta have ma carbs!
She doesn’t push a diet plan though, has no books or supplements to sell. She does shill for 23&Me though, so there’s that. Meh. I like her. Nutrition science is filled with idiots, and it regresses every year. Slim pickings…
I could probably (read: definitely need to) give more attention to the circadian stuff. I’ve been staying-up all night and sleeping until the afternoon. It’s seriously messing with my mood.
Or, maybe it’s my going back to “good” and “bad” foods that’s messing with my mood. I climb out of that hole for a while, but then slide back down again.
Or, maybe it’s being unwell and unemployed.
It’s hard to know.
Anyway, as for Rhonda, I’d definitely take her over “SciBabe” Yvette d’Entremont. The latter has also been on Rogan’s show and some of her stuff REALLY sends me into orbit. While Rhonda may annoy me, I actually get angry at Yvette. At this age, there’s very few things that get me bent. But, she is one. I’m sure the problem is with me and not her, though. I still have work to do.
On a different note…
Have you done any reading on high-fat diets leading to fatty liver?
I recently attended a live webinar on the topic, out of curiosity. The two presenters were both Type 1 Diabetics that had previously tried “Low-Carb” diets (they didn’t define what that meant to them) that included animal-based foods. But, the diet didn’t help either.
Then, they found the Holy Grail of a Whole-Food Plant-Based diet with no Sugar, Oil, or Salt. They eat lots of whole-food carbs — including lots of fruit, which sends the Paleo/Keto people into a catatonic state — and have lowered their need for Insulin, lowered their HbA1c, and other Unicorn-level stuff.
According to them, the fuel in your diet is the fuel in your liver. Thus, eat lots of [whole-food] carbohydrates and your liver will store more glucose. Eat lots of fat and your liver will store lots of fatty acids — leading to fatty liver and a host of other issues.
The Carnivore crowd is certainly eating a fair amount of fat and protein. Or, maybe protein and fat, respectively. It depends on the person. I think the Carnivore diet is *supposed* to be eating more fat than protein. So, I guess it would/could be Ketogenic? The Andersen’s ribeyes are cut extra fatty.
After 20 years, she certainly doesn’t seem to have a fatty liver. Nor does her husband Joe. Amber O’Hearn has been at it for nine years. But, obviously, three people may as well be zero. And, I believe most of the folks on the MeatHeals website are new adherents. So, it might take quite a while for things to shake-out.
Now, I have no plan or desire to follow such a diet myself, but I’m just curious as to what sorts of things we might see in the future, with so many people flocking to super-high-fat diets.
Some random statistics I found:
“The liver normally weighs about three pounds. When more than 5 to 10 percent of your liver’s weight is fat, you have a ‘fatty liver.'”
“Non-Alcoholic Fatty Liver Disease, or NAFLD, is on the rise in the United States thanks to a huge increase in obesity rates over the last three decades. In industrialized countries, 20 to 40 percent of the general population has some form of fatty liver disease and the chances of its progressing increase with age.”
“Nonalcoholic fatty liver disease and its subtype nonalcoholic steatohepatitis affect approximately 30% and 5%, respectively, of the US population.”
“About 100 million individuals in the United States are estimated to have nonalcoholic fatty liver disease.”
I like the IDEA of a whole-food plant-based diet. I’m more into starches than non-starchy, fibrous vegetables. But, damn, I can only eat so much corn, beans, rice, and potatoes. I’d have to be munching all day, like a horse. And, I don’t like big meals. Plus, I just don’t feel as good eating only plants. Maybe I need to track my intake to make sure I’m getting enough calories…er, CARBON! haha Perhaps I’m not eating as much as it feels.
For me, personally, I think there’s merit to lower protein and fat intake — particularly from animal foods. Not eliminating them, but small amounts every other day or two and only during one meal on that day.
Maybe it comes back to cycling. Switching-up everything on a regular basis.
Okay, it’s 3:40 AM and I’m stuck in a loop again. So, the best thing I can do is go to bed.
Never heard of Scibabe, I guess that’s a good thing lol
Fatty liver is usually blamed on fructose, especially HFCS, so I’m surprised that some blame fat as well.
I don’t think the macros matter: if you’re eating a surplus of calori..err..carbon, you will get fat deposits in your liver. That’s how they make foie gras after all–overfeeding. It also accumulates in your pancreas, and affects beta cell function, which is why you can reverse type 2 beetus, by clearing the fat from the pancreas.
Maybe macros never mattered (other than meeting your protein requirement). Maybe it’s just cycling food intake?
Ah, yes…ol’ fructose and HFCS. Somewhere, Robert Lustig is smiling.
In my very cursory and preliminary reading on the matter, I’ve read a few medical-oriented sites that implicate fat — particularly saturated fat — in NAFLD.
Here’s one:
“Nonalcoholic fatty liver disease (NAFLD) is characterized by excess accumulation of fat in the liver. In some cases, NAFLD is also accompanied by insulin resistance, resulting in metabolic dysfunction. Dietary fat content probably influences both NAFLD and insulin resistance; however, the immediate effects of fat consumption have not been fully explored. In this issue of the JCI, Hern?ndez et al. evaluated hepatic glucose and lipid metabolism in humans and mice following a single oral dose of saturated fat. This one bolus of fat resulted in a measurable increase in insulin resistance, hepatic triglycerides, and gluconeogenesis. In mice, the saturated fat bolus resulted in the induction of several NAFLD-associated genes. Together, the results of this study indicate that saturated fat intake has immediate effects on metabolic function.”
J Clin Invest. 2017;127(2):454?456. https://doi.org/10.1172/JCI92407
Then, there was this non-sensational headline:
“Carbohydrate intake and nonalcoholic fatty liver disease: fructose as a weapon of mass destruction”
Lustig got wood over that one.
The summary of an August 2013 article stated:
“Diet plays a role in the pathophysiology of NAFLD. It is reasonable to advise patients with NAFLD to reduce calorie intake with either low fat or low carbohydrate diets as well as limit intakes of fructose, trans-fatty acids, and saturated fat.”
I see your point, though, regarding eating a surplus. Eating more fat simply means more…carbon. Good point, too, about how foie gras is created.
Fat accumulation in the pancreas is something with which I’m more familiar. (Not personally, thankfully.) That’s how I first heard about the Newcastle Diet and people using it to reverse Type 2 Diabetes. The beetus.
Maybe it is just cycling food intake. Maybe macros only matter with regard to their carbon density.
Or, maybe the real issue is my system is broken. Seems we should be able to throw food down the hatch and let the body sort-it-out. Dr. Klaper says when we eat carbs and fat, we burn the carbs and store the fat. And, that carbs cannot make us fat. By eating more carbs, our body temperature would increase 1/4 degree and we would burn-off the excess as heat. He must have read “Eat for Heat”!
I give up. For today.
Got wood lol
Funny how for some like him, sugar is the main villain, but for Peatards and fruitarians, it is manna from heaven. Anything can be anything in nutrition!
As for postprandial effects of food, it seems that any food is “bad”. The vegans like to point out that fat makes the blood sludgy and harms arterial function postprandially, but the paleo/carnis say the same about carbs. They’re both right. Meh. I give up too lol
Hey, amigo. I just ran across the following Twitter page, found a few things of interest, and thought of you.
https://twitter.com/tednaiman
If you’re not already familiar with him, perhaps give his page a quick scan. I hope you’re doing okay.
Jeez, Louise… Okay, maybe nevermind. Ol’ Doc Ted is a high-protein low-carb guy. I never heard of that before. lol I should have read more, before letting my enthusiasm get the best of me.
Oh yeah I know Ted Naiman, I’ve argued with him on Twitter a lot lol. He used to live in Loma Linda, one of the Blue Zones, ate Vegetarian like them, and it didn’t work for him. So naturally he violently swung to the other extreme, concluding carbs are trash and protein is a magic food handed down by the gods.
I’m alright but still obese lol. Still “researching” for that breakthrough that’s surely around the corner ????
That’s funny about your arguing with Naiman on Twitter. I suspect your logic was lost on Protein Boy. So, it seems he’s Low-Carb, Low(er)-Fat, High-Protein.
Don’t give-up, my friend! I know you’re gonna lasso that Health Unicorn soon!
https://www.bowflex.com/blog/unicorn-meat.html
Gosh Matt. As a former anorexic who finally found peace with “eat the food”, this one post isn’t easy to digest lol. And I am raising a toddler who is a pretty good eater (she loves fruits and veggies, meat isn’t a favorite tho). Anyways, I am very weary of getting restrictive in my diet ever again, especially for the sake of my daughter. I think the primary thing I can take from this blog is avoiding supplemental vitamin A and maybe avoiding things like too much milk that has supplemental A. Are plant-based vitamin A really that toxic though? My daughter loves tomatoes and I just don’t know what to think. Anyways, recommendations for raising healthy kids as well as maintain a healthy mom (I want to get pregnant again soon and now I’m terrified to take prenatals but I’m also terrified to go without them). Anyways, keep up the good work.
I had a similar experience when I ate half a pizza after a week or so of avoiding vit a. But I chalked it up as psychsomatic and it disappeared shortly thereafter. The mind is a powerful thing.
Oops, meant to reply to the comment below this one. Sorry, Caroline. You can ignore that reply ^
Anyone have any side effects from this food program? I’ve been on it 3 weeks and the tomato cravings are intense. So I ate two slices on a Wendy’s hamburger and within seconds felt weak, had a hard time breathing, tingling lips. Lasted about a half hour. Was a little scary. Got to say though, the psoriasis on the back of my neck is subsiding and the forehead acne is cleared. Still have bad psoriasis on my stomach and have not lost any weight. Have read some people adding back butter which I think I will do if it will help with cravings. Hopefully, it will all even out soon.
Were you expecting or looking for a reaction? It seem unlikely you would have an actual (non psychosomatic) response “within seconds.”
Also, I’d try experimenting with a slice or two of a real tomato and skip all the other crap that’s likely in a Wendy’s hamburger. You may be conflating things.
You may be right. Thanks for your insight.
My pleasure, Kake. I’m glad the psoriasis on the back of your neck is improving and the acne forehead acne has cleared. Those are positive developments. I wish you much continued healing.
Think I may have replied to the wrong comment above. Must have vitamin A brain.
Anyway, Kake, I had a similar experience (tingling lips, etc) when I ate half a pizza after a week or so of avoiding vit a. But I chalked it up as psychsomatic and it disappeared shortly thereafter. The mind is a powerful thing.
I noticed forehead acne going down, too. Glad to hear about your psoriasis doing better.
I’ve mostly been doing beef and rice, some black beans, pineapple, honey, rioboos tea, raw milk, occasional butter, olive oil, egg whites, and lots of sea salt. Haven’t been super religious about it though, trying to find a nice balance between easing into the experiment and not shorting myself on calories.
Time will tell.
I haven’t been as strict as I would like or maybe should. Mostly roast, rice, sourdough bread ( if my hands get cold, which they do at night for some reason), lemons and lemonade watered down. Adding oats with honey and apples, applesauce, Lara bars and cauliflower. Been eating little amounts of butter and olive oil. Cravings are still intense only now it’s more sweets oriented. Also been gaining weight. Sigh. Thanks for your in put Ian. Glad to know of others experiences. Will look at roobios tea, never heard of it. Might see about egg whites but I tend to like those with cheese. LoL such a mind game isn’t it?
Yeah it’s a trip. I scrapped the diet for now. Too restrictive/stressful for me. But I’ve got it in the back of my head, so avoiding things with excess or supplemented vit A.
Back on raw milk, yogurt, etc. Which is nice. Rooibos is a South African tea, I really enjoy it. Our local Walmart has it.
So after a few weeks of experimentation with my vitamin A dietary intake, I have made the following observations so far.
I initially saw some improvement in my skin and digestion in the first few days, however it did not last with no change to my diet or vitamin A levels. I was still consuming some small amounts of beta-carotene from beetroot, dark chocolate, and bananas, but should have been less than 5% of my RDA. I was primarily eating white rice with either beef or turkey mince and raisins. I then switched my carb source to something other than white rice (white sourdough bread), and saw any previous improvements disappear completely over a 4 day period. My conclusion, vitamin A intake has nothing really to do with my symptoms, in particular my skin health. I have since then also re-introduced higher levels of vitamin A in both the form of beta-carotene from tomatoes, and provitamin A in the form of eggs and cheese. My skin health has improved at times, and gotten worse at times. I am pretty confident that vitamin A is not connected to my skin health at all, and that it is more likely connected to digestive health and sleep patterns.
Whilst my symptoms may never have been vitamin A related in the first place, it doesn’t mean other peoples symptoms are not excess vitamin A related. However, I might suggest that the idea of a predominantly rice and beef diet may simply have lead to an improvement in digestive health (as rice digests much more efficiently in the presence of protein than other carbs or starches). An improvement in digestive health I would expect to lead to an improvement in skin health, and the presence or absence of vitamin A in my diet over my 3 week trial period seems unrelated.
I can add to this that from my recent research, beta-carotene “should not” play any role in vitamin A excess, as there seems to be negative feedback mechanisms in human digestion that prevent the conversion and absorption of vitamin A from beta-carotene when the body already has enough. In order for vitamin A excess and skin health problems to occur, it would need to come from either provitamin A (preformed retinol from animal dietary sources), or there is something wrong with you genetically that is preventing the negative feedback mechanisms from working properly when high levels of dietary beta-carotene are present.
Given that Grants symptoms seemed to also come from beta-carotene sources of precursor vitamin A, it suggests to me either he may have a genetic problem, or he is reacting to something else in the foods he eats.
Happy to be wrong, just my current observations. And it doesn’t mean excess vitamin A isn’t harmful (science already recognizes there are vitamin A toxicity levels), but I don’t think I can agree with the premise of vitamin A in itself being labelled as a toxin. It being present in pretty much all mammalian milk, including human breast milk suggests that its essential to at least infant life in some way. Cant imagine us being created (or evolved) to deliberately include a toxin in the food of our young.
Excess is another story of course, and maybe that is part of the reason why mammals ween their young, to prevent absorbing too much vitamin A in its retinol form, and switching to a more vegetation based diet with vitamin A coming from beta-carotene which can be regulated via our negative feedback mechanisms to protect us from excess. Get enough vitamin A into the infant through breast milk, then cut it off and keep it balanced via beta-carotene. So perhaps there is still something to be said about the human diet containing too much vitamin A from preformed retinol sources.
I think from this point forward I will still aim to keep my retinol dietary intake as low as possible, but keep beta-carotene food sources in my diet without worry.
Jet fuel is also in breast milk. It must not be a toxin then.
3 weeks is not enough to even begin to draw any kind of conclusion whatsoever. Grant also clearly states that gluten is sort of a carrier molecule for vitamin A, as is casein.
I think 6 months or so is about the minimum trial period before casting judgment on whether or not a low vitamin A diet has any usefulness for your health issues.
Is jet fuel found in the milk of all mammals in quantities seemingly appropriate for the needs of the infant on a species by species basis? No?
I think after my 3 week trial, I can clearly see that there are other variables involved beyond the quantities of various forms of vitamin A in my diet and how it connects to my particular skin health issues. For me it seems fairly obvious to conclude that it is not a result of excess vitamin A (as I implied). Grant had negative results immediately after eating foods and saw significant improvements within a week of not eating them. I would expect that 3 weeks is more than enough time to observe similar positive or negative reactions to different vitamin A food sources being included or excluded in my own diet, especially when flare ups occur or diminish independently of vitamin A consumption. Doesn’t mean it cant be an issue for others, I just don’t see it as the cause of my own issues.
I am also pretty convinced from what I’ve seen that beta-carotene should play no role in excess retinol levels in the body which casts further doubt for me on Grants theory. I am happy to conclude that vitamin A consumed in retinol form can lead to vitamin A excess and produce symptoms, but it should not happen with beta-carotene consumption unless the individual has a genetic flaw that causes their negative feedback mechanisms to fail. Grant had flare ups from beta-carotene dietary sources and continues to suggest that beta-carotene is a part of the equation, which I currently no longer agree with. As I said, excess vitamin A from retinol sources, sure I can see it happening. From beta-carotene sources, it should never happen unless your DNA is faulty.
One of the few times I’ve seen my skin completely clear up (keratosis), was on a strict vegan diet for 6 weeks that had plenty of beta-carotene but zero vitamin A as retinol. This fits perfectly with what I am suggesting (of course making an assumption that keratosis has anything to do with vitamin A) and the observations I have made over the last 3 weeks.
The quantity of vitamin A in milk varies with the amount consumed, just like with jet fuel, PUFA, mercury, and many factors. I’m certain Grant’s gerbils wouldn’t have any vitamin A in their milk if he had had the chance to breed them. I’m saying its very common presence in milk doesn’t automatically make it a nutrient.
As far as carotenoid conversion not contributing to vitamin A overload in the chronic sense, I’m not so sure. I do think it’s likely to be less harmful, but if you have absolutely no room in your liver for retinol storage, and your body is converting carotenes to retinol, it’s got to end up somewhere, and retinoid storage in tissues could very well be a major inflammatory trigger, aside from the other reasons foods high in carotenoids might be inflammatory (being high in lectins and other allergens).
As far as veganism is concerned, I get a terrible rash all over my neck and dull, consistent pain in the general area of my thyroid gland eating a vegan diet. So that’s interesting.
Agree with you that nasty stuff can end up in breast milk, but most mammals are not exposed to these substances, yet still provide vitamin A in milk. And by that logic should we also be suspicious of vitamin D? It’s also in breast milk. I mean vitamin D is created by sunlight, which also causes skin cancer right? OMG, vitamin D must be the cause of skin cancer, it must also be a toxin, keep out of the sunlight. Oh wait, its OK, vitamin D also has negative feedback mechanisms to prevent a build up from sunlight exposure. Phew!
Incidentally beta-carotene negative feedback mechanisms are common to mammals, which means herbivore mammals should never have excess vitamin A in their systems because they should only ever get their vitamin A by the tightly regulated conversion of beta-carotene, so it should never end up as “a toxin” in their system that accidentally makes its way into the milk, yet it’s still there.
If you have absolutely no room for retinol storage in your liver, then beta-carotene should not get converted from beta-carotene into retinol (that’s the whole point of the negative feedback mechanisms), so there should never be that storage issue where it needs to go to the tissues and cause inflammation. Only retinol versions of vitamin A will be absorbed unchecked, about 90% of retinol in the diet usually gets absorbed from digestion. Then I can see a viable scenario for excess causing tissue inflammation problems when your liver stores are full. But I think you are missing the bigger point that if there are negative feedback mechanisms in place for regulating vitamin A in the body from beta-carotene sources, then it has to mean the body wants/needs/uses retinol. Just looking at the number of ways retinol is stored in the liver and the number of mechanisms that exist for retinol to be transported around the body tells me it has to be more than just a toxin floating around causing havoc. The body also has negative feedback mechanisms to control iron intake from digestion as iron toxicity is also harmful and tightly regulates it. That doesn’t mean iron is a toxin, just that it needs it in controlled amounts. Vitamin A seems to be a similar story to me and we are simply bypassing our regulation mechanisms by consuming too many retinol rich foods. What about beta-carotene, is that a toxin too? The body stores beta-carotene in the tissue for a rainy day, so it can convert it to retinol when needed. The body deliberately stores beta-carotene in the body so it can convert it to a toxin another day? That makes no sense.
As for veganism, I certainly don’t endorse it. It may have helped clear up my skin after a few weeks, but it has numerous other flaws and caused numerous other problems, hence why I’m not still doing it … There are many different ways to be a vegan, healthy and unhealthy, usually nutritionally incomplete without supplementation, unsustainable long term, and way too harsh on a struggling body with an unhealthy digestive system (waits for an offended vegan to throw a carrot). But that my good man is a long-winded waffle for another day :)
You were sounding like Trevor Marshall in that vitamin D tirade there for a minute Nick! https://mpkb.org/
Trevor scares me.
This whole world scares me sometimes.
Really great comments, Nick.
As for veganism, a person may not live forever…but, it’ll sure SEEM like it!
Vitamin A for Allergies – https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2018/09/20/vitamin-a-for-allergies/
Hello Clarence…this makes perfect sense. It seems to me that some of the folks eating a severely vitamin A depleted diet eventually become increasingly more intolerant to all food. I keep thinking this is a gut microbial immune system issue, but I could be imagining that.
Like Masterjohn, I’ve noticed my needs for retinol are higher than most people. I recently finished my own personal experiment cutting out all dairy, liver and eggs (major staples in my diet). Within weeks I too came down with conjunctivitis in one eye and some lovely pimples for extra insult. My dietary change happened to coincide with lots of sun exposure, a week of too much alcohol consumption and staying up too late a few nights in a row.
I immediately took 60,000 IU of vitamin A, ate four eggs and thawed out some liverwurst and things cleared right up.
Every body is unique I suppose.
Love your Liver Posts Nick the Noo, really great stuff!!!
Hi Magic Maker, the flip side to that coin is your body may have been dumping excess VitA/retinol from it’s tissues when you were doing the low VitA diet. This produces symptoms that are similar/mistaken for VitA deficiency. Grant covers this in his book.
I’m more inclined to believe this was what happened to you, since he also says it takes at least 8 months to deplete liver reserves of VitA.
But then, why did you immediately feel better after taking the 60,000IU? God knows! I’m so confused…
I found this after reading a comment on FB by Chris Masterjohn. It’s nice to re-discover 180 Degree Health again! I spent a helluva lot of time here in 2012-2013, but I thought you more or less moved on from this. Anyhow, WOW. This post is disturbing, at least for me, because I’ve been taking high-dose Vitamin A supplements over the last few years because, in that Weston A Price line of thinking, I’ve always felt that abundant A, D, and K were really important. Now I have to re-think this. It’s also interesting to consider various carotenoid sources of “A’ vs animal sources of pre-formed A because of the poor conversation rate of carotenoids to active A. That said, this is probably the most mind boggling nutrition post I have ever read. Rarely does anything blow my mind or shock me anymore. I have to admit, my Vitamin A intake has probably been very high the last few years – very high. I have bottles of 25,000iu Vitamin A capsules in my fridge, so this freaks me out. I guess I am going to have to try significantly decreasing my A intake (obviously dropping the supplements) and cutting out the highest sources of A intake in my diet. I’m not sure I am ready to be on such an extreme “no A” diet, but I will have to research this more and take some action. Thanks, Matt!
Perusing Grant’s book, it’s interesting to note how his symptoms significantly improve when he drops a number of foods that he says are high in Vitamin A. These are the “trigger foods” that he talks about, but when I look at that list and look at these foods that he stopped eating and got very immediate results from dropping, I really have a hard time believing that it’s the Vitamin A that’s the issue here. Especially since it is stored significantly in the body. His list includes nightshade vegetables, which are notorious for aggravating inflammation and auto-immune conditions. That alone could be game changing. Other foods, like citrus, are high in histamines. Dairy protein – that would be casein – is a notorious big baddie for a number of reasons. Eggs can be highly allergenic. It seems to me that he started by looking at milk. Crossed off Vitamin D as a suspect. Looked at Vitamin A. Found that his symptoms matched and then found Vitamin A “everywhere” and delivered the verdict. Others have mentioned how carotenoid conversion to active vitamin A is regulated tightly. Vitamin A deficiency has certainly been very well documented for years – I have an ex-girlfriend who is a PhD in nutrition and that’s her specialty. I will continue to research this and read more of Grant’s writing on this, but of all the toxins and other dubious things we’re exposed to, I’m still resisting the idea that Vitamin is the hidden cause of so much that ails us.
I am coming to the same realization as you, Sean. Grant eliminated, as you said, notorious foods known for flaring up problems in people. A diet of beef, rice, and water is going to be friendly to all but those with starch issues (like myself). Someone else noted Grant really should have just taken straight retinol in the fish form capsules (not retinyl palmitate since that is another variable, although that could be tested too to see if it behaves different) and observed if he got symptoms. Instead he tested a carrot and lutein later on, if I recall correctly. A carrot has tons of compounds and lutein I don’t think actually converts to retinol. I think coconut oil gave him trouble too, but that has no vitamin A of any kind (he thought it esterified the retinol). I think he mentioned bread caused issues too, and again no VA in it. That sounds more like multiple food sensitivities, probably due to an inflamed gut, which is quite common among auto-immune diseases (and many health gurus claim that is the actual source of auto-immunity). If a leaky gut allows food particles into the body, perhaps the immune system is getting rid of those and using retinol to do so. Yes, retinol is present, but is it actually the catalyst?
The idea of hormesis is standing out to me, and perhaps excess retinol (and similar compounds like the carotenoids) just become too much for a body that is already stressed to the point of degeneration (versus resiliency for a healthy one). Grant removed every food item that gave him trouble and stuck with it for years (where most fail). His body is now probably back to a state where normal hormesis can occur if he goes slow and cautiously (he eats beans now regularly, which is a known trouble food for others, so he is resilient to the food toxins in those at least). Perhaps he gave his gut a chance to heal and started feeling much better without all sorts of food particles floating around his body causing destruction? This is an equally valid hypothesis, plus there are many people that have gone that route totally unaware of VA intake but seem to have resolved autoimmune issues.
Grant should be commended for delving deeper into the entire history of VA and basically proving (for some people, at least) they don’t seem to need much VA. He also rightfully condemns the use of Accutane and the use of retinol in sunscreen, which are both scandal worthy fiascoes. Unfortunately, he has gone down this ‘poison’ mindset and that seems like a dead end, IMO.
Once again, we have to be cautious about not equating correlation with causation. Charlene Anderson seems like a supporting case with her low VA ribeye diet, but she also even said certain WATER seemed to cause problems (and now only drinks Walmart’s spring water, I think she mentioned). Definitely no VA in water, right? So what is that about? Sounds like she was so sensitive it even mattered which water she consumed. Skeptics would roll their eyes at that, but she turned her health around, so who knows? It’s her story saying she just eats ribeye from a certain butcher and only that water from Walmart. So that partially supports Grant, but the water part does not. Nor does the fact other meats also gave her problems, some of which are certainly low in VA, like chicken breast, which I am sure she experimented with. So, again, what’s the problem there? It’s not VA as there is only trace amounts in there. The protein structure? The types of fats in there, of which there are not many in chicken breast? The energetic nature? Who the hell knows, but it didn’t agree with her.
Anyway, I have a feeling this all ties back to gut issues and sensitivities and food particles going where they shouldn’t and that sets off endless misery in the body. That is perhaps the lesson we are coming to. Unfortunately, for 180degree health folks with auto-immune issues, that means food elimination, which brings into play the issue of not eating enough again. If rice is agreeable, that would be the go-to energy food I would suggest for most. Plenty of energy in there with minimal irritants (including fiber if it’s white rice).
Or maybe food isn’t the entire reason for our ills? A stressed-out, spiritually deadened, highly-distracted and dangerously divided society? Sounds like a disease factory right there regardless of diet.
BRAVO!!! (clapping enthusiastically)
*Standing ovation for Evan E*
Hey Matt, with over 600 comments I don’t know if you’ll see this, but I wanted to let you know just in case you weren’t aware that the big bags of malt-o-meal on the cold cereal aisle at the grocery store aren’t fortified with vitamin A. Lol. Your welcome.
It is possible that problems associated with vitamin A are really caused by obesity or an overly rich diet. Except for those with eating disorders, eating an unrestricted diet like Matt was recommending probably would cause excessive weight gain with many problems including asthma. Stephan Guyanet emphasizes in his writings that the big things about health are most important to focus on like staying slim, not smoking, doing exercise, dealing with stress. Traditional cultures ate simple low reward foods except for feasting. This probably would serve us better than avoiding one nutrient. I have come to the same conclusion as a health counselor that these bigger things are more important.
Hi, John: What undergraduate/graduate courses did you complete, in order to become a Health Counselor?
Carl, why don’t you stick with the merits of what I said?
Perhaps you took my inquiry as a challenge to what you wrote, John. But, you would be mistaken. The Vitamin A conversation isn’t relevant or interesting to me.
I was, however, genuinely curious about what’s required to be a Health Counselor. As a Google search wasn’t helpful, I figured I would ask you. Since you volunteered your profession, it seemed a reasonable question.
Please excuse my misunderstanding, Carl. I studied at an alternative natural health school in the 70’s with one main teacher. Like Matt, I went on to do my own research but over decades and learned from clients. Now, training is offered, not exactly but in a similar vein as a health coach training. I teach a natural health coach training course for people who wish to do this, also. If you interested or want to check out my course, go to my site listed below.
Hi, John:
Thank you for the follow-up note. Given the context, I can see how my initial inquiry could have easily been viewed as negative. I should have elaborated more.
So, you’ve been in the trade for 40+ years. Wow, that’s a long time. Obviously, you’ve been in a good position to spot trends in your many clients, over all those years.
Thanks, too, for sharing your website. I just took a quick glance, but will have to review in greater detail. I’ve heard of the Macrobiotic Diet, but know nothing about it.
(You were smart to secure that domain name. I bet that’s served you well. One day, should you choose to do so, I bet you could sell it for a nice price.)
Back in January, I quit my job in Healthcare I.T., in order to spend some time focusing on some health challenges that have dogged me for a few years. Because “Health” has been a hobby of mine for many years, I’ve wondered if maybe there’s a way I could transition into that field. But, thus far, I’ve not found a path that seems like a good fit.
I’d consulted with someone who was a “Health Coach” that graduated from the Institute for Integrative Nutrition (IIN). But, after about three or four meetings, I didn’t seem to be learning anything practical that I didn’t already know. So, becoming a Health Coach through IIN didn’t seem like a worthwhile pursuit.
Anyway, I’m off to peruse your website.
Stay well,
Carl
Many of my heath problems were aggravated after eating a sweet potato everday, 2 pasteured eggs every morning, eating lots of greens and taking 10,000 ius of vA daily. Through diet and and the supplement I definitely increased my vA over the last few years. I had symptoms before the increase in vA that have been linked to vA toxicity though those symptoms could also have been explained by other causes. I have read similar accounts of people on various websites going back before GG’s books that report similar problems after going on lowish doses of vitamin A supplements. I just started doing a very low vA diet, though not as restrictive as GG. I shall see.
I’ve been studying this fairly intensely for around a month.
In my opinion, this theory is correct. I actually think i’ve rarely come across such a convincingly argued theory.
One thing, though. Can someone explain why the masaai don’t have autoimmunity drinking all that milk?
Possibly there are other factors in the modern world which influence our capacity to handle the retinoids efficiently – but, if this is the case, wouldn’t that make this a symptomatic approach?
Harry, I can think of a few reasons why the Masaai are able to consume a lot of milk with out developing “autoimmune” diseases. They may get a lot of Vitamin D from the sun and their diets. D seems to counterbalance A. Being semi-nomadic, they may get a lot of exercise–Genereux mentions exercise as a way to reduce a body’s A load. They also seem to consume a lot of Taurine which appears to help the liver process A. I don’t know much about the microbiome, but I think it’s possible that their gut microbes help with A.
Genereux mentions that healthy people from other parts of the world–and more so their children–often develop autoimmune diseases after moving to Canada or the U.S. He even suggests that if Canadians and Americans were to move to countries where autoimmune diseases are far less prevalent that they would experience lower rates of these diseases too–or at least their offspring would.
I think we have to use caution in attributing health in a population to diet. If you or I adopted the Masaai diet, would we be as healthy as they are? I doubt it. So many things affect health. Diet is only one. I’m willing to bet that there are factors we have not yet discovered that will one day prove to have profound effects on health.
Just my non-scientific two cents worth.
Just to add to that, the other possible reasons are:
1)The Maasai haven’t been vaccinated. Vaccines are known to cause allergies to gluten, so lactose and casein isn’t a far stretch.
2)They drink raw milk
3)The cows haven’t been eating grain all day.
4)The milk hasn’t any synthetic vitamins added.
5)Fat content in milk would be much higher since it hasn’t been skimmed off to produce other dairy products like double cream; so the milk will be more filling.
6)The cows aren’t selectively bred Holstein etc, which produce more milk, but more allergic proteins and lower fat content.
7)The Maasai spend most of their time outdoors, moving around with alot of sunlight and nature, who knows what benefits this accrues in time.
My guess is if we do go out and live with the Maasai, we’d still have autoimmune diseases, since we wouldn’t have enough time to undo the damage. But I’m sure our children would benefit!
I’ll give you answer for #2:
It’s stress but not from food. First look up orienting response and then apply that to all the tech that we consume. Internet, TV, games, etc. It’s because of that response we get glued to such things.
You really should study this subject. This is the number #1 cause of stress in modern life. And even if it doesn’t directly cause stress, it does shift lifestyle to make you more vulnerablt to things like poor sleep, going hungry longer, etc. And body can only deal with so much stress before it breaks down. Good luck.
I read GG’s books back in April. I found it compelling enough to try a low vitA diet. But after 6 months, I ended the experiment with inconclusive results. Certainly, that isn’t enough time to prove much, since these autoimmune diseases develop over decades. But, I noticed no improvements. (I cut out PUFAs a few years ago, inspired by Peat, and noticed nearly immediate positive results, so I will continue that for the rest of my life!)
Why stop the low vitA diet? My teeth rapidly degraded, despite taking supplemental D, K2, and C and despite eating home-cooked meals of foods generally regarded as healthy, like beef, rice, chicken, and select low vitA fruits/veg.
I’ve since taken a 180 toward a Weston Price diet with large amounts of grass-fed whole milk, butter, and cheese. I suspect that by cutting out vitA, I also cut out my biggest sources of minerals (calcium and phosphorus). I’ve also now eliminated added sugars, which were ok in the Peat diet. Time will tell if my teeth improve.
I’m still compelled enough by GG to avoid all synthetic vitA fortification, but if you go low vitA, consider tracking your mineral intake.
[Also, like others have said, I still cannot reconcile the fact that some very healthy native populations like the Okinawans eat high levels of retinol or carotenoids.]
I wouldn’t so quickly blame low vA. Oral Vitamin D can pull out calcium from bones, I would think that includes teeth. https://www.facebook.com/DrGarrettSmith/posts/i-just-hit-the-motherlode-look-at-the-gems-from-this-paper-on-vitamin-d-suppleme/831196646958982/ https://www.facebook.com/notes/garrett-smith/all-you-need-to-know-about-raising-vitamin-d-in-one-mega-post-please-share/1803607903016705/
Another thought – maybe your teeth worsening is a sort of detox reaction to the body having the retinoids leave your tissues? Additionally even if you aren’t taking any retinoids in, the supply you have built up in your body continues to cause problems. Lori of the the health extremist blog wrote that it took around a year to get back to normal after her overdose of vA supplements.
Re: Okinawans
According to Grant’s book on breast cancer, in chapter 10 “Intercepting the Recycling of Bile Retinoids
As the liver releases bile to aid digestion, that bile includes stored and
emulsified vitamin-A. However; the small intestine reabsorbs almost all
the bile. It is almost a closed loop cycle. So, it would be ideal if we could
safely tap into that cycle and capture some of the bile’s vitamin-A content,
and then have it expelled with waste. If successful, then that would
significantly accelerate in the drawdown of the liver’s stores. I think a safe
way to accomplish this task would be to use activated charcoal. After all,
activated charcoal has been consumed for hundreds of years now in
Okinawa (the land of the immortals). To make it most effective the timing
and dose would have to be right. I think that a ? teaspoon dissolved in a
glass of water and taken just before breakfast each day might be a good
starting point.”
Ty, this means that taking orlistat, a drug blocking intestinal fat uptake has potential to flush out vitamin a faster. Of course it flushes out the other fat soluble vitamins as well. It is adviced to use orlistat with a meal containing fat, but not too much fat. If you eat carotenoid containing food without fat, it is not absorbed. Meaning that it is possible to not eliminate each and every source of carotenoids and still get rid of excess vitamin a.
Hey! Just thought I would share. Grant specifically states to stay away from all fat soluble vitamins. After a high vitamin A diet, and taking ADK all of the time as well as vitamin E, I had basically translucent teeth and 8 cavities. I had my cavities filled but my teeth were so weak and sensitive. After removing all fat solubles and going on a zero vitamin A diet my teeth are rock hard and solid white. It’s truly amazing. Just thought I would share. I am on a very lean beef, white rice, and white kidney bean diet.
That’s interesting Lynn. I have noticed very calcified, hard, flaky tartar on my teeth (never had this before) since eating a very low vitamin A diet. I tried some K2 but seems to make no difference. I’ll keep paying attention and trying some things to see what exactly is causing this.
This happened to me a while ago when I ate a mostly beef diet. The white calcified pieces were so hard to remove, and going to the dentist was miserable. Since adding more potatoes and rice and cutting back on beef (and also adding fish and chicken), my teeth are smooth again. Not sure, but maybe it’s an acidity thing?
Yeah maybe, I don’t know. I know that my mouth saliva was much more alkaline eating mostly beef than it is on a mixed diet. Maybe maintaining a slightly acidic environment in the mouth whisks that calcium away, preventing it from accumulating on the teeth? I dunno. Glad I’m not the only one though, lol.
Thanks for sharing your experience, Lynn. That’s how I would describe my teeth at the end of my 6 month low VitA diet: translucent, weak, sensitive, and with many cavities. To be fair, my teeth were degrading before I started the experiment, but I had hoped to see some signs of reversal on the low VitA diet. They got worse. I’ve been focused on the lack of minerals, and the high VitK/D supplements could have made that worse, as Ty suggests. That’s one theory.
But I also wonder if my problems were made worse because my diet was also low in fats during this time. I recall GG discussing how adequate amounts of fat (specifically butter fat) alleviated the “poisoning” symptoms in some experiments. In moving toward a Weston Price diet, I’ve now added large amounts of butter and milk, so maybe I’ll have some indication in a couple more months if it’s helping. (I’m not sure how to add fat without also adding VitA, since vegetable oils all irritate my digestion.)
It seems crazy to me that all through my 20s, I ate a ‘terrible? diet with lots of soda, candy, junk food, fast food, no milk, few vegetables, etc. Yet, my teeth were pretty great. As I ate ?healthier? in my later 30s, my teeth declined.
Just curious Lynn, how long were you on the zero VitA diet before seeing your teeth return to health?
Fascinating, Lynn!
I wish I had some data to share, but for various social reasons I haven’t been able to consistently adhere to a very low vitamin A diet.
I will say that I’ve probably reduced overall A intake significantly, as I usually eat lots of salads (w/ lettuce and carrots), and I’ve cut those out entirely.
On this flawed experimental diet, I have not noticed anything significant.
I find the reports that eating some vitamin A, after fully abstaining for a while, causing severe reactions, to be a strike against the theory. GG himself reports that a carotenoid (IIRC it was lutein and/or zeaxanthin) with no known vitamin A activity caused him a serious reaction that took weeks or months to recover from.
It seems to me that such reports likely indicate that the person, for whatever reason, has become severely vitamin-A intolerant. That is different from saying that vitamin A, per se, is damaging. Yes, you could argue that that is natural once the liver is full of A, but I’ll admit it doesn’t ring true to me. You’d think after months of abstaining from A that there’d be a little room for some A. Especially as there are societies that use things like yams as a staple. Sure, maybe they are particularly tolerant to vitamin A. But most Europeans likely descend from pastoral people, and they should have pretty good retinol tolerance from all the milk and cheese in the diet of their ancestors.
Grant has mostly convinced me that vitamin A deficiency is very unlikely to be a problem in the West, and I further find it plausible that excessive A, paired with a damaged metabolism so common in the Western world, could very well be a bad combo. For example, I do find that either lettuce/carrot salads or pizza generally make me feel worse, if I eat too much of either. The only things in common between these two foods that I can think of is high level of vitamin A activity. I also think its plausible that vitamin A supplements are a bad idea.
I am unlikely to actually do a very low A diet for any extended period of time, though I’ll continue my moderately-lower A diet. I’ll keep an open mind, and read with interest any actual reports, such as the one posted by “6 Month Experiment”, above. Thanks, 6ME! I’m not at all attempting to dampen enthusiasm for this idea, or discourage experimentation on it.
I have a few further musings, that I’ll post in a followup right after this, since this comment is already too long.
Here are some maybe-not-random facts, if you add in the results of vitamin A experiments:
– Some folks do poorly when consuming large amounts of retinoids and carotenoids, even those with no vitamin A activity. This appears to be true even if they abstain from vitamin A for long periods of time.
– Some folks do poorly when consuming large amounts of PUFA.
– Retinoids and carotenoids are fat-soluble, and subject to oxidation. PUFAs are subject to oxidation.
– Antioxidants aren’t particularly effective in improving health; some are deleterious (beta-carotene, at least. are there others?).
One possibility is that none of this is relevant. Perhaps in a healthy metabolism, the various endogenous antioxidants are more than enough to deal with this, and Bob’s your uncle.
Another possibility is that if the total load of readily-oxidized, fat-soluble compounds that are eaten rises above a threshold, then it overwhelms the average body’s defenses. This could explain why very low-fat diets appear to work. If you squint, you might argue that very high-fat diets that are primarily saturated could work also, but all-beef, and even all-milk diets have a fair amount of unsaturated fat in them. Our very own Matt Stone did poorly on an all-milk diet, also, so it’s not necessarily a magic bullet.
Fat-soluble antioxidants aren’t particularly effective as far as I know. I believe vitamin E does poorly in clinical trials. Perhaps the problem is that vitamin E, when quenching a free radical, just passes the buck, and it itself needs to be quenched. What is the ultimate result of quenching oxidized fat molecules in humans? I’m not sure. And, can this system be improved via dietary or environmental interventions? Other than eating only starch, that is, which probably will work, but isn’t very appealing.
Here are some wacky ideas. There is no proof that any of these will work:
– Light. Violet light degrades retinoids in the skin. Perhaps skin, when exposed to violet light, can serve as a retinoid and/or carotenoid sink. Of course, I’m not sure if the degraded products are any more or less damaging. Blue light may affect cytochrome P450, which apparently both converts retinol to retinoic acid, and degrades retinoic acid. I’ve generally done poorly with more blue light. IR light may boost cytochrome c oxidase; maybe that’s generally relevant as a metabolism booster, but even people who spend lots of time outdoors have diseases of civilization.
– Grounding. The earthing institute has always touted that grounding supplies electrons. That is true; the Earth’s surface is electrically negative. Could these electrons be helpful in fully resolving oxidized molecules? Dunno.
– Lipoic acid. Lipoic acid is both fat and water soluble. Perhaps this is an important feature that allows LA to quench fat-soluble radicals, and then move into the serum where it can be either regenerated by water-soluble anti-oxidants, or excreted. Whereas a solely fat-soluble molecule can only be excreted in the bile, and not via the urine. LA does appear to have some actual benefits in clinical trials, IIRC.
Anyone else have ideas? I should figure out how anti-oxidant defenses work in the body.
Is there retinoic acid in dairy products if all the fat has been removed? I know Vitamin A is in the fat, but is it possible that a product that supposedly has no Vitamin A (and none added via supplementation) still has retinoic acid?
Well, that was certainly a contention that Grant Generoux made. That is, certain methods of preparation may lead to retinol to be oxidized to retinoic acid and attached to protein fractions; therefore, a supposedly fat-free food would actually contain significant quantities of retinoic acid.
I have no idea if this is true, or if so, which preparation methods would lead to it.
Matt Stone, he doesn’t offer any proof that high temperature converts retinol to retinoic acid. I asked him, if he had it tested and he said no. If you look at the cass sheets of retinol and retinoic acid, it says that both are denatured at these temperatures
One of my questions with adding milk back to my diet was if the heat pasteurization process could lead to a conversion of VitA to Retinoic Acid (RA), as Grant indicated happened with the lard in those early experimental diets. I was only able to find one study that compared raw milks to pasteurized milks, and there was virtually no difference in RA levels. Small amounts in both. (Assuming the RA wasn’t somehow “hidden” or bound up with other molecules.) So, it seems neither VitA or RA is affected by the pasteurization process, although I’d be interested if anybody has seen other data on this.
I think that’s the belief KayKay. In speaking with Dr. Garrett Smith, I also think butterfat, despite containing some vitamin A (not too much in very ivory white butter), has factors that influence retinol-binding protein, helping to excrete it from the body. In some sense, the fat in dairy protects us from the retinoic acid and retinol. Perhaps this is why, in vitamin A deficiency experiments, butter was found to eliminate the supposed symptoms of vitamin A deficiency (which Grant believes are symptoms of vitamin A poisoning from the undiscovered retinoic acid in casein).
Thanks for the responses Matt and zogby. It’s such a bummer because dairy is my favorite way to get protein, but I do believe Vitamin A has caused problems for me. I was hoping a fat free dairy would work, but I guess not.
I wish there was more definitive research on the fat free dairy products to let us know how much retinoic acid they contained.
Matt Stone, is there any plausibility to the protective properties of butter? If so, what substance or mechanism? Of all the stuff containing vitamin a, butter is rather high, higher than egg yolks.
Garrett mentioned something about butyric acid and its effects on retinol-binding protein I believe. As far as butter’s vitamin A intake, it probably varies quite a bit depending on the source.
So what kind of fat should I be eating? I’m really confused here. Before I found WAPF, I ate little fat–what I did have was mostly olive oil, but some other oils as well. My finger nails looked terrible during this time. They were paper thin and separating from the nail bed. During my WAPF days, I began using lard as my primary cooking fat and included liberal amounts of butter on potatoes, bread, etc. My finger nails improved dramatically, but were still not great. Then I found 180D and read Matt’s books. I dropped the lard, substituted tallow, and continued using butter. Although, in general I use less fat than I did during WAPF. My finger nails are the healthiest they have ever been. I’ve experienced other health benefits as well. But after reading Genereux’s 3 books and reading the comments here, I’m not sure what fat to eat. All the online sources I can find say that tallow, lard, bacon grease, olive oil, avocado oil, coconut oil, and cocoa butter have 0 IUs of Vitamin A. Yet, Genereux said that rendering lard generates retinoic acid. Does rendering beef suet into tallow generate retinoic acid too? How is it possible to generate retinoic acid from something that has 0 IUs of A? I also remembering Genereux saying he would not use coconut oil, but I never understood why. I don’t have a strong background in science, so I would really appreciate any explanations in laymen’s terms that anyone can provide. Thanks!
I went low vitamin A for 6 months. No noticeable improvement with my autoimmune issues (ankylosing spondylitis). I even had a mild iritis flare-up for the first time in over 6 years during this period. Starch seems to be the main issue with this condition for a lot of people, so I have already been very low-starch since 2012. It helps a lot but not complete elimination of symptoms. I was hoping this VA hypothesis would pan out, but it hasn’t for me. I tested some straight retinol from fish oil after 6 months, about 100,000 IUs spread out over a week, and nothing happened (good or bad). Then I decided to cut out peanuts, chocolate, and all fruits and vegetables. Guess what? Some long standing issues, like peeling foot skin, seem to be getting better after a couple months off those foods, while at the same time adding butter and cheese back in (I tried all steak but failed after 4 days and losing 5 pounds, already too skinny of a guy, how the hell do people eat nothing but ribeye? My jaw was so goddamn tired!). That seems to torpedo the VA theory, and support the leaky gut theory that ANY food particle that gets into the body can cause a long list of problems. I suspect the body might simply be using the retinol as a means of getting rid of food particles/bacteria/whatever else shouldn’t be floating around in the body. GG seems to have committed a guilt by association error with retinol. GG ate nothing but beef and rice for a couple of years, which his body didn’t get inflamed by, and his gut healed, IMO. His multiple food sensitivities have probably disappeared, along with a list of health problems. This exact story also comes from others who successfully heal their gut problems with food elimination or curbing SIBO, etc (it’s not an easy task figuring this out, which is the main barrier for most).
There are too many cases of people increasing their VA intake but cutting out other things and finding relief from issues. How does GG explain that away? Plus, there are others who ditch all VA, but keep eating things like cauliflower and still have problems (this was me for 6 months).
PUFAs, antibiotics, glyphosate, modern stress, too sterile environments, vaccines, and who knows what else have left millions with compromised guts. Inflamed guts are well documented with being associated with a long list of health problems. It explains things better than the single bullet VA idea.
High quality animal fats should be anti-inflammatory. Soybean oil is the exact opposite. Wherever that foul oil gets marketed, disease increases. This has nothing to do with VA. It’s just basic physiology that beef fat works great in the body for most whereas polyunsaturated oils are typically a health disaster (a couple walnuts and some fish, no problem, even beneficial, but mass quantity deep frying oxidized soybean oil is a metabolic nightmare). This is where WAPF finds success with many, just by switching oils back to animal sourced (although they go too far with the cod liver oil obsession).
To any with whatever issue, especially autoimmune, I suggest you find a gut health protocol and work on that as a critical first place to start. Michael Ruscio (Healthy Gut, Healthy You is his latest book) cuts through a lot of the testing maze functional practitioners have become enamored with and has a step-by-step system to start figuring out what is causing gut problems (I don’t think it’s VA, unless high doses were involved, like with Accutane or too much supplementation). SIBO, FODMAPs, parasites, gluten issues, etc. need to be explored (why did GG exclude bread? No VA, right? Same with coconut oil? He rationalizes away foods that don’t match his hypothesis, which is a big red flag).
Can anyone actually claim avoiding VA solved their problem without it being confounded by food elimination? GG might be on to another avenue of thinking here, especially with retinoic acid, but I suspect a healthy person with well functioning guts and a liver will have no issues with retinol.
Sorry to rain on the parade here, but this is how I see it right now. Michael Ruscio says you should see improvement with health issues within 2-3 weeks once the actual culprits are eliminated. GG reported that within a month he was feeling markedly better, yet VA takes months and months to reduce. Which one makes more sense? His poor inflamed gut finally got relief and started healing or it’s just his VA came down?
I have been on the low vA diet for about a month – this is what I’ve eaten: grapes, grape juice, cauliflower, ground beef, white rice, black beans, bananas, dates, white potatoes, sunflower seeds, sunflower butter, peeled apples, almonds, white onions. I have most of these most days. After about 2.5 weeks in my pressure headaches went away and I started to sleep a bit better. I have many other long term problems that I am expecting to get better over several months to maybe a year or more including an autoimmune condition. The pressure headache and extreme insomnia where very recent problems I had so it makes sense, to me at least, that they would be the first to get better.
If you think my diet is low in allergens, etc.. let me know. I’ve done various diets before including low carb and vegan. Personnally I’m am 100% convinced that it is vitamin A at the root cause of my problems.
Ty, how much vitamin A have you been eating per day, on average?
My issue is that my appetite is so increased on this diet, that I accumulate a significant amount of vitamin A, simply because the tiny amounts in the foods i’m eating add up due to the volume consumed. I’m often eating around 750/800 iu per day, coming from 4500+ calories. I haven’t gained any weight, and I actually lost 3kg in the first few weeks, which I didn’t need to lose at all.
I would be interested to hear how much vitamin A people have been consuming, in general. Perhaps we can work out if the maximum amount is relative or absolute.
Harry,
I don’t know exactly how much A I consume in an average day because I have an aversion to tracking nutrients (a result of decades of restrictive dieting). But I have substantially reduced the amount by cutting way back on dairy, eggs, and brightly colored fruits and veggies. But I figure I’m still getting more than 1,000 IUs per day because a little here and a little there adds up. However, my main goal is simply to lose fat as I don’t have any autoimmune conditions. Maybe I would lose fat faster if I cut back more. But I feel it’s very important for me not to restrict too much. I need a diet that works in social situations and for the long haul. I’m also interested in hearing how much A others are getting, how they are doing on that amount, and whether they feel it is sustainable.
I am not sure how much A I consume, but a huge amount less than before. My daily diet before included sweet potatoes, lettuce, mangoes, pastured eggs, grass fed beef and probably other moderate to high A food. Over the past month, some days my appetite seemed increased but most days I think my appetite/hunger was about the same and a few days maybe a little less. Sorry I don’t have any suggestions for you but it sounds like you are going in the right direction.
Evan, I think what most people are seeing according to Grant and Dr. Smith (who is now getting feedback from a couple dozen clients pursuing vitamin A elimination on his guidance) is 80% alleviation of a few conditions within a few weeks, followed by a very long period of many months of extremely slow improvement following that with sort of “detox” like episodes as well.
I wouldn’t say that gut health is unimportant, and like I said in the post, I think most will write off his experiences as the result of eliminating allergens, but I do think there is more here than that.
I know that I was getting some good results at first eating a lot of fatty beef, but I became over-reliant on it and fatty beef turned out to not really be the best choice for me (perhaps, if Grant is right about palmitic acid, because of the high palmitic acid content).
There are a ton of factors that impact vitamin A absorption and excretion, so nearly everything is a player in this somehow. I think his primary reasoning for avoiding gluten was the belief that most people have formed allergies to it. I haven’t had problems eating small amounts of wheat.
Anyway, we’ll see how it all pans out. Thanks for your contributions to the conversation.
Evan E, animal fat is only anti-inflammatory in small amounts. Saturated fats in quantity are definitely pro-inflammatory.
Interesting comments Evan. I’ll just say one thing: Soybean Oil is the devil! I suffered for decades with poor digestion and had a terrible time figuring out the trigger. It was so inconsistent. For example, I could eat pizza at one place and be fine, but pizza from another shop would trigger intense GI-tract issues. After many false starts, I was finally able to narrow it down to the oil, PUFAs in general but specifically soybean oil. It’s undigestable to me. Removing it from my diet has been absolutely life-changing, and I can only imagine the damage it caused my body over the years, in inflammation and poor absorption of other nutrients.
[Recently, I had Jimmy John’s at a party and ended up awake half the night with digestive pains. Sure enough, I researched it the next day and they use soybean oil and hydrogenated soybean oil in their bread! My body knows!]
You make good points. I raised similar questions in an earlier post. If I hadn’t personally been taking a lot of Vitamin A supplements over the past few years, I’d probably have a hard time buying GG’s theory simply because, as you have stated, it’s a radical elimination diet that also gets rid of a lot of foods that are problematic for people: nightshades, high histamine foods, foods known for allergies (eggs, dairy), etc. If I have success with this protocol I still won’t know whether it’s the lack of vitamin A or the lack of gut aggravation that’s behind any recovery. Are you still avoiding all fruits and vegetables??
I think you are talking to me, right? LOL…
I have added back in some vegetables, like green beans, some carrots (boiled for like 15 minutes) and lettuce. That’s seems to be going okay. I have remained off fruit for the most part since it notoriously hurts my tongue (some way more than others, pineapple feels like acid after a slice or two…I get really bad geographic tongue too sometimes).
I have been experimenting with sticky rice since it is almost entirely amylopectin, which is a starch that breaks down rapidly and is way less likely to cause issues further along the gut. No flare-ups from that thus far.
Dabbled with dark chocolate some and that was going okay until I had milk chocolate with peanuts just today actually (friggin leftover Halloween candy, it’s like I can’t escape these things sometimes) and I felt sort of brain foggy a couple hours later. The milk chocolate, the peanuts, whatever other junk preservatives are added (not much VA in it that I know of)? I don’t know, but the wife gets all the rest of that stuff.
I tire of meat, so these diets are a real challenge. And I start getting too thin because I cannot seem to eat enough. I hope the sticky rice doesn’t flare me up because that is much needed dense little energy packets. If I overdo soda, I drop my body temp and am then freezing (Thanks Matt for the wake-up call on excess fluid intake because I did that unknowingly for like 20 years after reading a bunch of nonsense saying we need absurd quantities back in the ’90s).
I also started my wife, son and myself on Zach Bush’s ‘Restore’ product. It is claimed to help gut junctions and stop glyphosate from causing harm (and he actually has some science behind this). He is a pretty sharp doctor that is getting at a deeper level than most. He doesn’t promote any probiotics because he thinks it just creates a monoculture imbalance. Get the gut inflammation down, the barrier restored, and over time the right critters will start showing up again (go for a hike, hug your dog, etc).
I am not sure about GG’s theory. Dr. Garrett Smith is exploring it further, so that is good. I still suspect many of us have like 100 fires going on in the body and the VA is being utilized in response to all the problems. If we quell all this inflammation, will VA still be a problem? How does something like Humira or CBD work if VA is truly so poisonous? Wouldn’t it damage stuff regardless? These are questions that need exploring.
Hi Jeanne, I’ve been talking to Dr. Smith about the coconut. Grant says he believes the high amounts of palmitic acid is what is bothersome to some. Beef fat is also high in palmitic acid, and many have noted that eating fatty beef causes flareups while eating lower fat cuts of beef is perfectly fine. I’ve noticed the exact same thing. It’s important to remember that there are many things that contain vitamin A in many forms (all with unique properties), and there are even more factors that affect vitamin A metabolism, such as vitamin E, vitamin D, butyric acid, and many others. Garrett is thinking that the pigments formed from the carotenoids matter as well. He’s seeing clients be much more sensitive to red and orange-pigmented foods than green vegetables, for instance. Still a ton left to be unturned here. For fats I’ve been enjoying eating more chocolate, macadamia nuts, almonds, olive oil, and very white french butter (Plugra). Oh, and lots of coconut, as that doesn’t really seem to bother me, but I’ve been eating like coconut candies not consuming a ton of oil. So, keep playing around with it.
Thanks Matt. I’m doing pretty well on small amounts of butter and tallow. I’ve seen Plugra in the grocery store so I’ll give that a try as well. My main issue is that I’m too fat–I don’t really have anything that seems “autoimmune.” I am continuing to lose fat steadily although slowly so I will continue along the same path. Recently, I’ve begun trying to bake with cacao butter with limited success. If anyone has any recipes to share, I’d appreciate them. I’m looking for a virtually A free cookie, bar, or other snack that I can carry around with me. Wheat does not seem to bother me, but I avoid all nuts and seeds because of diverticulosis. Thanks!
Jeanne, I made brownies using Pamela’s GF brownie mix. There’s instructions on the package for using just oil and water that worked out well. I used liquid coconut oil. After they cooled I cut them into individual servings and kept them in the freezer. I just used Pamela’s because I have celiac.
I was thinking that some type of rice crispy like treat with chocolate chips might work too but I haven’t tried it yet.
Hi Bella,
Thanks for the suggestions. I’m thinking a rice crispy treat might be just the thing. Organic marshmallow would be A free I would think. I’ll have to give it a try.
That’s nonsensical. Carotenoids don’t form pigments, carotenoids are pigments. The only reason green vegetables are green and not red despite all their beta carotene is because of their high chlorophyll content, it masks the red and makes them green instead.
Yeah that was pretty stupid, lol. BUSTED.
Hi Matt, great discussion. Do you have the time to summarize the main critiques of Grant G’s theory? I think you’ve done a great job of answering and responding to a wide variety of comments. I have been trying to verify the Lard – Retinoic Acid connection to no success so far. That is a major linchpin for the theory. I’m reading the 1925 paper by Wolbach and Howe and thinking a lot about their ingredients.
Their paper was mentioned and linked at the beginning of a 2011 Review at PubMed titled: Vitamin A Metabolism – An Update.
I’m wondering when ‘Vitamin A’ became a group term? Looking around at various sources for definitions, i.e. Wiki, Merriams dictionary and others, it seems the term ‘Vitamin A’ is now an umbrella term, and that confuses the issue for me.
Was ‘Vitamin A’ ever just defined as Retinol? According to a caveat in the reference section of the 2011 Review:
“To be consistent with our experiences in using and understanding modern nomenclature usage, we will use the term retinoid in place of vitamin A throughout this review. The word retinoid is a generic term that includes both naturally occurring compounds with vitamin A activity and synthetic analogs of retinol, with or without the biological activity”.
My take on that is that either ‘vitamin A’ was not a “generic term” at some point in the past – OR – by including “synthetic analogs of retinol” into the mix constituting some previously agreed upon ‘vitamin A grouping’, that was called ‘vitamin A’, they’ve created a new grouping called retinoids – and they had to make the distinction.
It’s funny, I dove deep for a couple of weeks on PubMed and now I’m standing back, trying to understand the definition of the basic words they are using. It could just be me, but I’m a stickler for clarity, and I’m just not seeing it in these Reviews or the papers they cite.
Thanks
Hmm…
http://bacteriality.com/2009/04/milk/ (The milk would also have been fortified with vitamin A, eh?)
http://microbeminded.com/vitamin-d-supplements-are-immunosuppressive/
Oh the irony of first getting into health and nutrition through the Weston A. Price Foundation. xD
Matt
So the fats you are eating besides coconut are high ox, which can cause severe problems for people. The only group with any research behind that i have seen on fbook has been the low ox by susan owens.
Is anyone doing this having increased appetite? It just hit me the last couple days and I’ve been trying to eat as low vitamin A as possible since early July. Please share your experiences if you don’t mind!Thanks
Bella,
I’m finding the opposite–decreased appetite. But that really started even before I went low A. I first noticed it in May after I had been eating for heat for a couple months and my temps came up. I didn’t go low A until June. But my appetite has definitely not rebounded. I find that when I eat I get full quickly and stay full for hours. I do still eat 3 meals per day, but I make a conscious effort to do so.
Thanks Jeanne! I first did eat for heat in 2012 so maybe because I have gone through the refeed process or whatever you want to call it long ago that could explain the difference. I didn’t have an appetite for a long time so I guess I’ll view it as a good sign!
I asked on Grants site too.
Good luck with your appetite. :)
I also experience less appetite. As if my leptine resistance is disappearing. Occasionally I binge on chocolate and notice absence of appetite in proportion.
Interesting Maureen. One of the posters on Grant’s site linked some studies showing vitamin A lowered thyroid function. Perhaps my body doesn’t want to lose anymore weight so my appetite has increased!! Or maybe I was just eating some crappy fortified dairy that didn’t agree with me.
Thanks for your insight on leptin. That’s something I haven’t read much about so far.
Totally random and oblivious to the blog post, but I realized that there was no group for 180DegreeHealth followers. So there it is, our reddit group ! Feel free to post anything related to 180DegreeHealth and start discussions, this is the place !
https://www.reddit.com/r/180DegreeHealth/
Appreciate the idea Louis but we’re more like the Olympics, we meet every four years when Matt finally writes a new post lol ?
What IS time?
What CAUSES gravity? The gravitational field’s force- WHAT causes it? It’s NOT even remotely known!
What causes mass?
What is the ORIGIN of the universe ( No, it is NOT the Big Bang nor did LeMaitre the inventor of theory think so, as Alan Guth has noted )
What is the origin of life?
Anybody who thinks scientists know the answers to these questions is a Pop-Sci Fanboy who has watched too much Sagan and Kaku snd Tyson… and DORKY Bill Nye who is a semi -stooge.
The esteemed physicists such as Paul Steinhardt are extremely uncertain- very, very much so. We have better evidence for inflationary models as well as Steinhardt’s Big BOUNCE model. Gravity can be REPULSIVE- not many people know this. Steinhardt’s perpetual Big BOUNCE model is BRILLIANT.Steinhardt’s Big BOUNCE competes with Guth’s inflationary model. All we know is that we can trace back matter to a time where condition where conditions were extremely hot and much different than that of today. That is it,.
Gravity can be an infinite source of “energy” , according to Steinhardt and colleagues, where the universe goes through expansion/contraction every 1 trillion years or so ( not exact- just a figure) Questions like the origin of the universe are not really even testable. Gravity is a VERY UNIQUE CASE and we were NOT taught that in school.
To know the composition of matter at the “ultimate” or deepest level is IMPOSSIBLE for human beings by very definition. That is directly from physicists equal to or better than Hawking. People like Lyle McDonald and James Kriger are CON MEN. They think they “win” their debates against Gary Taubes and others. Taubes is a journalist, NOT a physicist. It is unfair to expect him to know topics into such great detail. He does well. He asks questions that get the ball moving away from the conventional incorrect view.Forget his insulin model- think of the bigger picture. His value lies in the fact he continually pushes for a radical new CHANGE- just like the great physicists have done. Einstein constantly reminded colleagues of the need to introduce NEW IDEAS, radical revolutionary concepts and change into physics.
All of our science is very primitive compared to Nature and reality. Top scientists know the limits and do not glorify it like the bloggers do. We just came down from the trees, we are APES struggling.
I LOVED FRED HOYLE, an original thinker. Google his conversations on YouTube. GREAT man.
No serious physicist EVER proposed or said that the Big Bang was the start of the universe. That is the pubic who thinks it is. This Big Bang as the origin of it all i a totally erroneous view held by the public and reinforced bny hokey popularizers.
I can understand why the *pubic* would think that the Big Bang was the start of it all. Life is never the same, after that ;)
All this talk about Inflationary Models, Big Bounce Models, and The Big Bang is reminding me of some movies I watched in the 70s. https://youtu.be/8c_STKjrN_g
I’m finding this thing about avoiding coconut fat, due to the palmitic acid content a little mystifying. According to all the data I can find, only about 8% of the fat in coconut is palmitic acid. Most people seem to be using butter instead, which has quite a high vitamin A content. This might make sense if butter was lower in palmitic acid, but it isn’t – it’s 31%… Am I missing something?
Coconut oil is contraindicated on the ‘low-sulfur diet’. It doesn’t contain much, in any, but is known to be a problem for some reason (it must interact in some way). Check out the link for the low sulfur and low histamine approaches (along with other diets that work on reducing inflammation triggered by foods), because this might actually be the issue for many of us, not vitamin A.
https://drruscio.com/gutbook-resources/
I think it’s worth trying these various diets to rule out food intolerances and work towards healing gut issues. Grant inadvertently did a pretty drastic food elimination by going just beef and rice for a long period of time (although beef does have sulfur and rice is starchy and problematic for many, but those two foods obviously faired well enough for his system to allow healing). I have already seen others reporting continued issues despite VA avoidance. It didn’t work for my wife, myself or my son.
I don’t see this idea holding up. Acute VA toxicity is well established and understood. ‘Chronic’ VA toxicity blends into way too many other symptoms shared by other known issues (leaky gut manifests all sorts of problems, bodywide). Unless you were consuming high amounts from liver, taking large supplemental doses, or using accutane, I don’t suspect VA is the problem. Eat some beef liver or take some retinol capsules and see what happens (the retinol capsules should have no other variables present…Grant should have experimented with this and not foods). I too some capsules and noticed nothing. I know now to not foolishly take huge amounts, but that found in foods shouldn’t be creating toxicity.
Coconut oil doesn’t support the VA standpoint (it could emulsify VA, but that is speculation). Neither does gluten, chicken, raisins, nuts, peanuts, soybeans, legumes, or many other other foods that are low in VA but are known from other perspectives to cause problems. Take some time and try out these diets in the link. They are all restrictive, but nothing like this beef and rice or just beef diet that people are getting stuck in. Plus, none of these diets are meant to be permanent. Once the gut heals, we can back to other foods if they don’t cause issues.
Hi Evan,
Thanks for you’re response. I agree with you in many ways, but there are several things which cause me to think that the vitamin A is an issue.
1. The fluorescence of the skin found in those with vitiligo and the fluorescence that Grant observed in his own skin. I have also noticed this in my skin. There are also studies that show there are higher levels of vitamin A in the skin of people with other autoimmune diseases.
2. The fact that people have experienced good health with amounts of serum vitamin A that are so low as to make it virtually undetectable.
3. The fact that symptoms of vitamin A toxicity are indistinguishable from those of some of the autoimmune diseases, and the fact that retinoic acid is used for acid peels, and when applied to the skin, creates symptoms indistinguishable from some of the autoimmune diseases.
4. The fact that there are registered cases of people poisoning or killing themselves by drinking too much carrot juice, or other high carotenoid foods. Grant experienced a recurrence of symptoms when taking a lutein supplement, and when taking a bite of a carrot – which isn’t especially high in salicylates or histamine.
I am highly doubtful that this is the cause of everyones problems, but I do find the argument compelling in many cases. I think it has also been proven that vitamin A is not anywhere near as essential as we thought it was.
I believe that there are genuine allergies, which have nothing to do with vitamin A, and that may be responsible for improvement in some situations. However, I have also seen studies that show that retinoic acid can induce intestinal permeability, so is the vitamin A problem, in some cases, further upstream of the leaky gut that you cite as the cause of peoples issues?
I do believe that the issue with vitamin A could be analogous to diabetes, in the sense that other factors may be causing us to lose are ability to handle it properly.
Ultimately, however, we have a compound which is proven to accumulate in the skin, seems not to be essential, and, when when converted to retinoic acid, becomes something used for acid peels. In all my time researching nutrition, I don’t think i’ve ever come across a theory of such blatant apprehensibly; it’s so simple, and so eminently logical.
I agree about the simplicity in the theory – makes so much sense to me that all of my many problems have one cause. I’ve had health problems since I was a young one and didn’t take supplements then, did’t eat liver or take liver oil or use topicals containing retinoids.
Reports are that people may not have resolution to their problems till after many months or even more than a year so I think many people give up too early. Dr. Smith explains why detox might make you feel worse and why sometimes take vA seems to make things better in the short term but not in the long term. Has to do with cell turnover.
Nothing has rang more true to me than vA being a toxin rather than a vitamin. Some people have a very low tollerance level for toxins for whatever reason, while others seems to handle exposure very well.
Harry, yes I think know I what you mean. I’m almost having cognitive dissonance except I’m doing the no A and having spectacular results. I’m glowing and all my health issues are receding before my eyes yet it’s still hard to believe for some reason. :/
Bella, that’s fantastic news, congratulations! I’m very much convinced by the theory, no cognitive dissonance for me, I was just trying to respond to Evan in a balanced way.
The only thing which is confusing me is the damn coconut oil thing. It doesn’t make sense.
I’m using coconut oil without issues. Mostly because I don’t do well with ghee or butter and I sometimes need fat for cooking. I’ve been using some EVOO too but in rereading Grant’s books I noticed he doesn’t like Extra Virgin olive oil for some reason?
I think I’m a bit more relaxed with the low A while still staying at 0-4% RDA on average.
It is quite an unusual experience to have mysterious issues you’ve dealt with for decades virtually resolve in mere months. I suppose that’s what I meant by cognitive dissonance on my part. I work in the medical field and although I’ve had my doubts about a lot of things it’s mind blowing that we could be so wrong about ?vitamin A?.
Hi Harry,
Just keep in mind with food elimination, we have multiple variables in play. Grant is convinced it’s the VA, but we can’t deduce that unless JUST vitamin A is removed. Plant compounds and fiber are known to cause trouble for those with gut problems. Onions and garlic have nearly no VA yet I can tell you with certainty what trouble they gave me (belching for hours, and probably other problems further along the GI tract).
I suspect retinol is probably being used as a way to shed unwanted stuff via the skin, perhaps because the liver and kidneys can’t or are overburdened to handle the amount of foreign things getting into the body. Thus, it would show up in the skin.
What if a healthy person doesn’t need the retinol and just safely stores it in the liver and it doesn’t show up in blood work? You would need a liver biopsy and compare that to overall health. And after that screen the diet and see how much VA they consume. Lots of my relatives that made it to nearly 100 ate liver fairly often.
I am glad you are having success, but we need to be sure we figure out what is actually helping.
How restrictive of a diet are you on?
I eat white onions on my low vA diet and have no problem with them. I also eat cauliflower, grapes, bananas, dates, sunflower seeds, rice, beef, apples, and almonds. vA is not a nutrient, it is a slow acting plant poison. Many plant foods that have it also have nutrients that protect against it but our food supply and other things in the environment have changed alot in the past decades to make it a problem for many (read not all). Maybe your family members also got alot of the other nutrients and had genetics to handle toxins better than others. Your n = a few, doesn’t negate ours that are having success with a low vA diet. So what caused me to have 10 cavities everytime I visited the dentist for most of my young life, what caused my acne, what caused me to become fatigued faster than others, what caused my curved spine, my chronic rhinitis, and my chronic insomnia all at a very young, to young age? I didn’t eat liver of any kind. I didn’t take vitamin A supplements. Did each of those problems have a separate cause and if so, what is the cause of each? Or do they all have the same cause? Vitamin A is known to cause all of those. Toxic levels? I assure you that I did not eat more than normal amounts of vitamin A when these problems started so if even normal (within RDA levels) cause a problem then for me it is a toxin.
Hi Evan,
Appreciate all you points, and I basically agree – we can’t truly know what’s helping. Also, just because vitamin A might be a problem, doesn’t mean it’s the only problem, as your experience with onions proves. That being said, it could be the root cause of other more superficial problems. Or maybe not.. we don’t know yet.
It’s an interesting thing to consider why people might have issues with this now, when – like you say – many people in the past were long lived and ate liver etc. In my previous post, I suggested that vitamin A metabolism could have been negatively effected by other things in the environment, which we weren’t previously exposed to. Glyphosate is one such example: Dr Smith posted a study showing that it destroys the livers ability to handle Retinoic Acid. There may be many other things that do the same thing.
It’s actually unclear as to whether this is helping me or not. Some interesting things have happened, like a huge increase in calorie consumption without weight gain. But I need to try it for longer.
My diet consists of several grains, several meats, a number of vegetables, a number of fruits and berries, a number of nuts and seeds, some fruit juices, coffee and the odd coke or sugary thing. It’s possible to eat a variety of foods and still maintain a low vitamin A intake. I haven’t gone for the militant ‘no’ vitamin A approach.
Ty,
Did you get prescribed antibiotics for something at that young age? Were you breast or bottle fed? Gut disruption is basically the first place to consider for many maladies. A healthy microbiome might account for up to 90% of food digestion. What do you suppose happens when antibiotics suddenly wipe out huge numbers of gut bacteria? Huge imbalances occur. Tight gut junctions get loose and foods that once were properly broken down by certain bacteria are now either fermenting (gas and bloating) from different critters or getting into the body only partially broken down. That’s why cow’s milk and other foods (usually plant) often suddenly become issue foods. Poor digestion and foreign stuff getting into the bloodstream. It’s pretty simple and explains so much.
10 signs of a leaky guy:
1.Chronic diarrhea, constipation, gas or bloating
2.Nutritional deficiencies
3.Poor immune system
4.Headaches, brain fog, memory loss
5.Excessive fatigue
6.Skin rashes and problems such as acne, eczema or rosacea
7.Cravings for sugar or carbs
8.Arthritis or joint pain
9.Depression, anxiety, ADD, ADHD
10.Autoimmune diseases such as rheumatoid arthritis, lupus, celiac disease or Crohn’s
And there are many more symptoms beyond that (endless, IMO if it is the root of most issues). How many of those overlap the VA toxicity hypothesis? Now, perhaps proper VA utilization and storage also goes awry with gut issues and VA is definitely something that shouldn’t be floating around the body. But was the VA itself the trigger? I don’t suspect so. What there is notable evidence of is other sudden catalysts preceding leaky gut, such as antibiotics, vaccines, pregnancy, or a major illness or stressful period.
Glyphosate is another microbiome disaster (it’s actually patented as a chelating agent and an antibiotic). It’s funny Grant mentioned that in his first book, if I recall correctly (even had the chart showing how closely diseases are following the amounts being used), but then didn’t think it was the cause (I think it’s one of several causes). He ought to go back and read up further on just how damaging glyphosate is to the gut (and the endocrine system, which the liver and kidneys are part of). Consider glyphosate IS a novel chemical to our bodies, unlike retinol which is as old as life itself probably. And the amount being dumped on us is staggering (it’s everywhere). Why did wheat become such an issue? Gluten? Perhaps, but we have eaten that since the agriculture age. Or is it that they spray glyphosate on wheat to preserve it? Glyphosate weakens gut junctions and then gluten gets inside the body and causes issues? There is no VA in wheat, so what is the problem going on here?
Grant has also either rationalized or just avoided accounts that directly refute his hypothesis. I sent him a case study of night-blindness that occurred to some Civil War soldiers after marching in bright sunny conditions. The treatment was blindfolding the eyes for a period and beef liver, and that worked apparently. Explain that? Someone else sent him a case study of a man who has been living on cola, white potatoes, and white bread for years (other foods gave him gut trouble), so little doubt his VA levels were low. He went to an eye doctor complaining of night-blindness. They found other eye deformities they also claimed were signs of VA deficiency. They prescribed him a few high doses of VA and his night-blindness cleared in 48 hours. How do you get around this with the belief VA is ‘just a poison’? We need to use some nuance in this matter and sort out what is going awry. Is the sun just a poison because it CAN burn us? I don’t want people fearing carrots now because of the beta-carotene content or beef liver because of the retinol, but that is where this mindset goes.
Speaking of carrots, I haven’t found the carrot juice thing to be true. There is this case here (https://www.nytimes.com/1974/02/17/archives/carrotjuice-addiction-cited-in-britons-death.html), but this guy was also taking VA pills (he consumed 70 million units in 10 days). That’s an acute poisoning. Can you cite other deaths? I didn’t find any when I searched online besides botulism cases and people blaming carrot juicing for cancer deaths instead of ‘proper’ treatment.
The case reports of extreme eye issues presumably from vitamin A deficiency aren’t as convincing as you made them out to be. The articles stated this: “Cian, now 16, took heavy doses of Vitamin A for a few days and started drinking vitamin shakes regularly.” So he didn’t just use Vitamin A he started taking more vitamin shakes. That doesn’t prove it was the A.
Then another case also said this: “The 52-year-old had eaten only potatoes, white bread without butter or margarine and cola since he was a child, complaining that any other food made him vomit. Despite developing tunnel vision and night blindness he completely recovered after a course of dietary supplements and cognitive behavioural therapy.”
That case also doesn’t prove it was the A. I’d need to see a human case study where the vision improved ONLY by A no other vitamin supplements or fruits and vegetables. I think Grant would say the same. Especially since his diet has been so low A and yet his vision is great. I originally was really against this idea of the vitamin A being toxic, but it has been growing on me since Garrett Smith has been doing those live FB videos. I have been making a lot of connections. Babies have a lot of issues with eczema and cradle cap and the formula is loaded with synthetic A. Not to mention they typically don’t see the sunshine as much because parents are afraid of them burning. I think sun is the major factor preventing vitamin A toxicity in a lot of people and those who don’t get a lot of sun are at a greatly increased risk.
Explain why war prisoners who for the most part ate 1 cup of rice a day for over 3 years had no eye problems?
From Poisoning for Profit pages 121 to 122
“The prisoner of war camps during the second World War
provides us with ample examples. Both the German and Japanese camps
maintained hundreds of thousands of people under conditions of extreme
starvation. For now, we are going to particularly focus on the Japanese run
camps, because it is well documented that the only rations allotted to the
men captive in these camps was one cup of rice per day. Additionally, with
the fall of Singapore and Hong Kong at the very start of the Pacific war
the Japanese had captured about 190,000 British and allied troops. These
men (the ones that survived) were captive for the entire duration of the
Pacific war, so that’s for about 3 ? years. For the most part, they lived on
nothing more than one cup of rice per day, and that’s if they were lucky.
That’s it. Almost no protein, no fruits and vegetables, nothing else. ………..Clearly, for most the men held in these camps they were not only
extremely malnourished in all manner of essential proteins, fats, vitamins,
and minerals, they had no vitamin-A whatsoever. This was undoubtedly
the perfect conditions to induce widespread diseases and infections.
Therefore, under these conditions and according to the VAD theory, every
one of these men should have quickly gone blind and had all of their
epithelial tissues, and therefore all of their internal organs and glands,
completely and quickly destroyed. There should have been massive and
widespread cases of xerophthalmia, and blindness reported. It should have
been almost ubiquitous within the prisoner populations. Obviously, thatwas clearly not the case. Not only did that not happen, but it was also
nearly the complete opposite. Upon liberation, many of these prisoners
were examined by Western medical teams. What’s reported should have
been, and to a certain extent was, downright astonishing. The eyes and
vision in the men remained in exceptional health. The doctors made
special notes of how perfect the eyes appeared in most of these men. The
sclera was remarkably void of any vascularization (a condition that
normally occurs with xerophthalmia), and was perfectly white. American
doctors reported the same (very noticeable and surprising) findings in the
men liberated from the German P.O.W. camps.”
I don’t know why that one dude on cola, potatoes and bread had problems and did better with a supplement. Was it only A or was it other stuff too? G. Smith explains that in the short term vA can increase cell turnover and makes it look like tissues are improving but in the long term that rapid cell turnover isn’t a good thing and the harm begins. Glyphosate makes vA harm worse and vA causes leaky gut. I am older and had many of my problems before glyphosate was used and before I had a drop of antibiotics.
How do we know people living on starvation diets, like the POWs, are not just cannibalizing retinol from elsewhere in the body and putting it in the eyes? Giving what we are learning about autophagy, this could go on for years. It could take a really long time for problems to develop. I think Grant has shown we don’t need tons of VA, but zero is far from proven at this point.
I was perusing some probiotics for sale and I ran across one (“Just Thrive”) claiming one of the bacterial strains makes a carotenoid. So maybe even gut bacteria make compounds similar to VA? How do we get around that one? One of the top reviews on Amazon is some gal saying it nearly cured her asthma. Maybe the product actually managed to stop the gut issues for this person (it claims to help heal leaky gut) and suddenly her issue resolves. No VA avoidance.
Grant’s idea is too simplistic and it really is just a long series of correlations, as I have stated before. We are the experiment and not everyone is seeing results. Those who are are confounded by food elimination variables or they were into an actual acute hypervitaminosis state and needed VA reduction until the liver caught up storing it. The health extremist blog lady is fine years after her acute state. It didn’t set off a major disease and she eats plenty of VA once again. Explain? It’s not adding up if VA were truly just a poison. Too many holes in this hypothesis. Now do the synthetic versions behave differently? Is high dose Accutane worse than high dose retinol? Probably, given the complaints against that drug, but again that isn’t a fair assessment of the stuff found in nature.
Check out this doctor (‘real’ doctor, this time…lol) and his findings with the gut and glyphosate. He does sell a product (Which is intriguing, actually), but I am pretty amazed at what I am hearing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HL6OPzQe9Is
Evan (or anyone else),
If you’d be willing to chat over email about your experience with this diet, i’d be really interested to learn about it. My email’s harry@elementalhtma.co.uk
Thanks
Plants produces various poisons – some causing immediate toxic symptoms, some that take a long time. Not everything in a plant has a purpose in humans. Many of the plants that can be healthy have compounds that are beneficial and do more good than the harm the vA in them does bad. Problems happen when there are nutrient deficiencies (namely zinc, and protein/amino acids- see Dr. Smith’s blog) that don’t allow us to process the unwanted things in plants and when we get it added to food or switch to foods that are high in vA and low in the protective nutrients. Glyphosate like Garrett Smith is describing is a big driver in the problems with vA also.
About the POWs – so is it proven that the eyes are protected above other epithelium tissues? Why would the body that needs vA in so many organs including glands shuttle the precious vA to the eyes in a deficient bodily state? And who said that the POWs had other signs of vA deficiency as understood by the science? Grant’s article doesn’t go into detail but maybe you could see if there were any vA deficiency signs in the POW, but I doubt there were.
When I read about low vA diet results – the vast majority of people report good things in their health. You didn’t in 6 months – so what? not trying to minimize your “bad results” but to me they seem like obvious detox side effects. I have been doing the diet for 7 weeks and my accute symptoms are mostly gone – though still having cycles of bad insomnia (have had insomnia for almost 30 years). And some things are worse – sight in one of my eyes is more blurry and I have worse night vision – to me that screams of detoxing the poison. Before I went on the low vA diet I ate a whole big sweet potatoe, 2 to 3 pastured eggs and took desicated liver pills, organic lettuce, and other vA foods each day. So if those POWs couldn’t drain their vA in 3.5 years, how could I in 7 weeks (actually less because I noticed more bluriness almost imediately)?
I see zero holes in Grant’s ideas. That health lady had accute problems with vA, got over them in about a year and can now eat vA (in normal amounts compared to most people from what I gather) Sounds like she has a balance of other nutrients to help continually detox the vA instead of it accumulating as with the supplements she took. She didn’t take them long but did take a big dose though to me it sounded like a long detox. She probably wouldn’t have ever had noticable symptoms if she didn’t take that supplement – some people are blessed that way with a body that can get rid of toxins much easier than others.
A simple explanation on what is causing the tremendous increase in chronic conditions seems much more plausible than many different ones. Glyphosate + fortification of vA + lack of nutrients = vA poisoning for many. Where I see holes are in all the crappy studies done to claim that vA is a nutrient and not just a poison.
The literature is plentiful with how damaging vA can be – I have a text book for a nutrition class that says that vA toxicity is the most prevalent nutrient toxicity there is. Yes there are plenty of studies showing benefits but those benefits are short term and are due to fast cell turnover. What studies need to be done to satisfy you and others that vA is just a poison or at least not essential? The only ones I can think would be a diet given to people extremely low in vA for an extremely long time but I can’t wait that long. (Or might you be satisfied with research animals that don’t live as long as humans?) I have been sick too long to wait for any of that. Grant reversed all of his health problems – not just his eye problems. So I am confident that I’ll be just fine without that poison. He has done the diet more than 5 years I think, how much more time will it take to drain his vA?
The stuff that Grant G. and Dr. Smith have accumulated, plus testimonies from many, many people, cover this topic in depth and thread so many things together, so to me, it is obvious that vA is not a nutrient. You don’t see that, fine, but I am trying to get my kids off the crap along with myself – that is how much I believe in this. I am not a dumb person – I have a master’s degree in biology – not saying I am smarter than most, just that I am not stupid.
Ty, I still have an open mind about the VitA hypothesis, but I don’t see how it’s a detox reaction when people see worse results on a zero-VitA diet.
The theory is that negative health outcomes are a result of saturated VitA storage such that new consumption of excess VitA has nowhere to go, causing symptoms.
It doesn’t make sense that once you remove the excess VitA intake, that the body would then dump even greater amounts of VitA from storage than had been consumed as excess before. That’s the only way symptoms would worsen instead of staying the same or improving? unless the detox hypothesis is wrong and another cause is at work.
I could only see it being a VitA detox reaction if you were taking a new substance that actively flushed VitA from the liver at higher levels than your original pre-diet baseline.
Ty,
Again, this is the hormesis idea in play here. A person with a fit body and diverse microbiome can turn potentially harmful compounds into useful things. And that is what we see in hunter-gatherer and the Blue Zone populations that eat a variety of foods and do not seem to be having any of these problems we are now plagued with in industrial nations. Beans have a pretty heavy load of lectins, and many cultures prepare them to minimize those compounds, but it by no means gets rid of them all, yet that is a staple in many cultures to no apparent detriment (very carb rich energy filled food, critical for many places). Plants contain things that might be useful for the eyes. There are studies that support this. Have a read: https://www.lifeextension.com/Magazine/2017/7/Improve-Night-Vision/Page-01
In my case, ankylosing spondylitis, there is a pretty well established connection with this klebsiella bacteria in the intestines that sets off a molecular mimicry type autoimmune reaction (it it very similar to some type of connective tissue in the body), and we typically test positive for this human leukocyte antigen (HLA-B27). Klebsiella live off primarily starchy foods, so a low-starch diet has been effective for many with AS (me included) by just keeping their numbers down in the gut (it’s a hack, basically). What does this have to do with VA? Apparently, nothing, as my 6 month experiment seemed to indicate. I slip up and eat something kind of starchy, stiff back in the morning. I eat something VA rich but no starch, no stiff back in the morning. I was hoping that would change after VA avoidance, but same old story. The probable key to solving this for me likely lies in healing the gut or a deeper immune system/health issue of some kind, but that has been an ongoing challenge for several years now (but I will keep at it, although I don’t stress it anywhere near as much as I used to, doesn’t do me any favors to freak out). And it is kind of hilarious that I can eat steak and coke and feel pretty damn good, but if I eat a ‘healthy’ meal filled with starches, I can set off a lot of misery for myself. And others with intolerances like FODMAP, histamine, sulfur, etc, discover these other triggers as well, and none of them seem to have any bearing to VA (Grant is just unaware of these findings, I think, and now he has become entranced with VA and is tying it to probably all illness because it’s always there…along with probably every other element in the body). I read the first two books. He had my full attention. But I see problems with it now.
And again, it’s too simplistic anyway, because we as a species really do need to start looking at things from multiple angles. Just changing the mind-set has reversed disease (qi-gong, in particular, is reporting impressive results from a hospital in China where that is all they do and have a 99% success rate?). That is quantum level, spiritual type healing, that transcends all this materialism science obsesses over (this is where healing is headed, IMO, once we begin to believe in ourselves and evolve spiritually…something many interests on this planet fight against relentlessly).
I am glad you are finally seeing some results. That’s always good news. But I have to go with caution when food that should be our medicine, turns into the opposite. I want to see that corrected and not just see foods shunned forever because for some reason they are now hurting us. The carnivore diet crowd is doing this too, which is unfortunate, because I don’t want people pigeon-holing themselves needlessly. A food break is one thing, swearing foods off forever doesn’t seem like a wise course of action. We need to heal ourselves, heal the food if need be (stop the GMO, glyphosate madness), heal the soil, the air, the oceans, lots things need dramatic reform, and they all are playing a part in our collective sickness or health.
Evan,
Of course plants have things that are good for all our tissues including our eyes, though carotenoids aren’t one of them. And I am very aware of the idea of hormesis via Ari Whitten – doesn’t seem to explain to me how toxins make us stronger though. Again, some plants have things that are good for us – those same some plants have good things that outweigh the bad things. Beans have so many good things about them that when traditionally prepared those beneficial compounds do more good than the bad compounds cause problems. I have eaten beans and still eat beans. Also you stated that blue zones eat a variety of food – did they traditionally? Seems like beans and rice, potatoes and other large amounts of low vA foods were the norm in the past. And even if just looking at today’s diets in the blue zones – their diets aren’t as varied as Americans and many other people in industrialized nations. I think Ari even commented on that a few years ago about traditional cultures eating just a handleful of foods a day and doing just fine.
Gluten, casein, nut, egg, shellfish and many other foods are well known now to cause problems and I am aware that some people are starch people and some sugar people but I am not aware of many people having such extreme problems with starch that it causes all of the following in the same person: depression, anxiety, tooth decay, acne, curved spine, insomnia, unidentified rash, rosacea, eczema, oily skin and hair, irritablity, brain fog, chronic memory lapses, rhinitis, scaly skin, peeling lips, hair loss, brittle nails, ribs that jut out, foot pain most of the time, tingling in the feet. Those are all my problems – many started when very young, many started or worsened after getting more A in various ways. I wasn’t aware that all of that could be caused because my gut bacteria weren’t all they could be. How do I make that better? I did a low carb diet back a few years ago when I ate meats and cheeses. My gut hurt all the time and it didn’t solve any of my problems. I have also done a vegan diet, and a vegetarian diet plus a SAD and a clean whole foods diet concentrating on plant foods – mostly organic – none of the diets helped much, if at all. I also didn’t know that a lack of qigong .. was to blame for my 8 year old self wishing I had never been born. While I didn’t practice that when 8, I have been doing qigong for the past 4 years because my friend likes to do it. I don’t think it has been enough to get rid of the toxins that have built up over the past 5 decades though. Sprituality and the like has role but it isn’t as fundemental as minerals, vitamins and toxins and I resent the notion that my mindset starting as a young child is to blame for the health issues I experienced then and which have grown into the pile of crap I live with now. Those problems started because of a toxin and that toxin accumulated more and more and more, causing more and more problems.
You mentioned soil – many are deficient in minerals because of poor soils. This too makes a huge difference in how the vulnerable process toxins like poison A. And of course all the other toxins make a difference but none are as fundamental to causing me problems. Ari is a hack if he is saying that toxins make you stronger. What a bunch of BS. You are concerned of people limiting their diet too much? Again, otherwise healthy foods aren’t ok anymore when A gets to be too much in the body – there are many reasons why this happens. Healthy foods with A ok when A hasn’t accumulated too much in the body. Context as Matt says matters. Some people are perfectly happy and healthy eating a very limited diet – guess some people don’t need that super duper microbiome or all those varied nutrients when there aren’t many toxins in their food. Also, I never said I was going to be fairly restrictive in my diet forever – maybe I will, maybe I won’t. What matters is how I will feel.
Good luck with qigong – hasn’t done much for me except get me out next to a river hanging with friends- good times but didn’t fix any of the problems stated above. Though perhaps I still have a deficiency in qigong? Hmmmm….
I think that Mike Tyson in his prime had one of the best physiques ever. Far superior to the Internet gurus who love to post shirtless shots- Colpo, Krieger , Hale. They look like homeless drug addicts. Not much quality muscle like Tyson had ( and still he is densely muscled- Tyson hits harder than 99% of the population still. : His diet? Steak and spaghetti, juices, etc.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-lQdVG6TpE
Genetics. And helped with hard work but genetics. I cannot get Tyson’s thick arms- my arms are only as muscular as Jordan’s at best. I am an ectomorph. 25 years worth of lifting since age 11 or so. It i snot going to happen without DRUGS IF that even would do it. Lyle McDonald is selling people nonsense. Gary Taubes is right- hormones matter!!!! Drugs work! Holyfield did steroids for the Tyson fights- he became a huge heavyweight overnight.
What is matter composed of at the deepest level? TOP physicists told me that science CANNOT answer that, it is IMPOSSIBLE to answer in PRINCIPLE. We do not even know what lies below quarks. We cannot even probe the Planck length-nowhere near it.
Science, our INVENTION CANNOT even in principle answer the DEEPEST questions. We do NOT know what matter ULTIMATELY is and NEVER will.So much for Aragon, McDonald, Colpo, Guyenet etc. and the other science abusers. If the public ONLY KNEW how tremendously UNSURE physicists are and little we know….
The science popularizes fill newbies head with garbage.
it is blatantly apparent Taubes is right that fat is like a tumor, a fat suit. Obese people are not lazy , they struggle hauling around a fat suit. Obesity- it is fat cell dysregulation, like an out of control tumor and we do not understand it. We only know that much and even that is not good enough.
Energy balance…. Laughbale…. Every human is OUT of energy balance or we would be dead. We are always NON equilibrium.
I meant to say newbies’ heads. Avoid Sagan types. The REAL scientists say we CANNOT EVER know what matter is ultimately made of – the DEEPEST level- it is an “IMPOSSIBLE TASK in principle.” ( to quote them directly). The science glorifying/misrepresenting/overstating Taubes’ bashers need to take note of this.
Only in Aragon’s and Guyenet’s minds did they ever “defeat” Taubes. Nobody won. Obesity is not understood. Time to stop pretending.
Evan (or anyone else),
If you’d be willing to chat over email about your experience with this diet, i’d be really interested to learn about it. My email’s harry@elementalhtma.co.uk
Thanks
Evan,
Grant explained how vA causes sensitivity to wheat (no vA) and dairy, and maybe other foods, why should it stop there?
When Grant has done his diet for 10 years and has no problems, what then?
Why would the body be able to convert beta carotene to Vitamin A (when needed) if Vitamin A weren’t needed? Why would “…mammary tissue possesses a very high degree of metabolic flexibility for incorporating retinoids into the milk, even in the face of the complete absence of a retinoid delivery pathway” if they weren’t needed?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2853214/
“There has been a huge increase in most inflammatory and immune conditions over the last 40 years. So what changed significantly 40 years ago and continued to get worse?
Well, there’s the low-fat diet craze. There’s the switch to high fructose corn syrup. We started playing video games and using computers. We started using a hell of a lot more chemicals, additives, and flavor enhancers in food.
Those sound bad, and most pin the blame such things without needing to see much evidence, but there’s not really much of a theory that one can build about how those things cause such a tidal wave of inflammation and the immune system basically going apeshit to boot.
The increase in vitamin A consumption, however, is much more compelling. Right in line with the dramatic rise in illness was a dramatic rise in vitamin A consumption.”
One of your comments from “The OMAD Diet”:
“This kind of argument/logic is cheap. You could literally make a theoretical statement like this about 100 different things that are unique to the West:
Is it a coincidence that the United States, Canada, Europe, and other industrialized nations get their vitamin A from multivitamins, fish liver oil, and the fortification of foods such as milk, butter, margarine, breakfast cereals, and some flours. Whereas, in the developing nations, people get 70 to 90% of their vitamin A from plant-based foods. We have an epidemic of autoimmune and other horrible diseases, and they don’t??
We use more pesticides, herbicides, eat a higher fat diet, use more medication, get more vaccines, eat a high-PUFA diet, spend more time in front of a screen, have higher sanitation and use more antibiotics (both of which destroy bacteriophages that are perhaps the most important thing for proper immune function), we eat more muscle meat and get less of our protein from low-methionine sources (causing more inflammation), we have higher chronic stress levels, we have an epidemic of hypothyroidism, do more dieting (my ex developed autoimmune disease and deathly shellfish allergies after running marathons on a low-carb diet for a couple years), we use more recreational drugs, get less exercise, and the list goes on.
That doesn’t mean that vitamin A might not be a problem, it’s just not an impressive way to convince someone like myself who has heard that type of theorizing (and even used it myself, moronically), about a thousand times over the last decade.”
Dude.
I came across the Feingold Diet recently (basically it is salicylate sensitivity), and the list of symptoms is quite long (notice the overlap of other conditions). http://salicylatesensitivity.com/info3/
This diet has been around since the 1950s and those with symptoms seems to have ramped up with exposure to petroleum-derived dyes and additives over the decades. I am surprised I have never heard of it in my 20 years of health nuttery. Like Grant’s idea of a ‘trap-door’ with vitamin A, this one is equal in that regard in how common salicylates are in foods. http://salicylatesensitivity.com/about/food-guide/
Unless you explicitly know you are sensitive to this compound, you would be unlikely to stumble into success. Grant, with only beef and rice (and beans) actually also went low-salicylate. Another confound, unfortunately. Of note is that coconut oil is very high in salicylates (so is olive oil). I know coconut oil gave Grant problems and maybe olive too, but not as bad. So, that is something to consider. Personally, I have never found coconut oil to be any of the amazing things it has been claimed for and this might help explain that. It actually makes my skin itch some if I apply too much.
It wouldn’t surprise me if many of these sensitivities begin to ‘stack’ (gluten, casein, sulfur, salicylate, nightshade, and whatever else) and that is why people are ending up eating just fresh meat.
Feingold diet isn’t very complicated. Just ditch these irritants for a few weeks and see what happens. Pretty easy to see if this compound is also a problem.
I’ve thought the same too, but kind of talked myself out of it when thinking about Accutane and cod liver oil triggering the supposed same “vitamin A excess symptoms.”
https://www.eczemalife.com/blogs/gut/does-salicylate-sensitivity-cause-eczema
Sounds like salicylate sensitivity is caused by impaired liver function.
Improving liver health gets rid of the sensitivity. Too much vitamin a and other plant toxins, too much environmental toxins, too much food, sugar… Our poor livers have too much to deal with ?
Salicylate sensitivity tends to be a combination of impaired liver function with low sulfur levels which is most often a result of exposure to mercury which binds to sulfur very strongly; although it can also be caused by a problem with absorbing enough of the amino acid methionine (one of the primary dietary sources of sulfur) due to inflammation in the small intestines. Inflammation or damage to the villi and wall lining in the small intestines can result in low sulfur uptake as well as preventing dietary salicylate degradation in the digestive tract itself.
Its been suggested that excess salicylates can also impair liver function by getting lodged in the liver tissue, which could theoretically have a knock-on effect on Vit A storage or metabolism. I’m not currently aware of sulfur also playing a role in Vit A metabolism, but if it was then there is certainly a potential link between SS and Vit A.
One thing that’s frustrating me – an i’m pretty sold on this theory – is the carnivore diet people who eat tonnes of liver, but have improved on their diet. Eg. vegetable police.
I spoke to someone over email the other day who said that he’d improved on a low vitamin A diet. When I asked what he’d been eating his list included tomatoes and carrots. However, he said that he couldn’t eat beetroots as they gave him a rash. This doesn’t quite fit.
Could it be that many people’s autoimmune conditions are actually vitamin A toxicity, but some people’s aren’t? Dunno.
Retinoic acid effects cyclooxygenase – sources found from simple google search though haven’t had time to read thoroughly. Seems some say that RA may enhance COX though this could fit Dr. Smith’s paradox theory of vA (in the short term vA has benefits but in the long term it is harmful).
https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/salicylate-sensitivity#section2“This overproduction is caused by the inhibition of cyclooxygenase, an enzyme that regulates the production of leukotrienes (4).
The buildup of leukotrienes in the body leads to symptoms related to salicylate intolerance.”
May make sense to go low on both vA and salicylates for awhile if feeling really crappy. Some of the foods on Dr. Smith’s low vA list are high in salicylates, luckily not all though.
meant “affects” not effects
never mind about the COX – misread the article. the comment Sophie made on a burdened liver causing sensitivities, etc.. seems spot on to me. And that a likely candidate at the root of it is vA.
Well my gut issues really started after taking Accutane.. (which on the wapf website somewhere it says that it actually depletes your vitamin A) Then I began eating a vegetarian/vegan diet it was weird lots of mental issues, but once I began to eat a wapf type of diet the depression and anxiety went away but my liver exploded it hurt like a mofo now, and I’ve been eating so much vitA because of the gaps diet (hello 8 egg yolks/day). So yeah it makes sense even if I have my doubts
Dr. Gundry (discussed earlier here) is a completely discredited joke–at least when it comes to nutrition. To see some of the problems, look up Mic the Vegan’s video about “Plant Paradox” on Youtube (and no, you don’t have to be a vegan to appreciate it). Gundry is a shill for the keto-paleo-LC crowd. He probably made a lot of money with his claims, but they don’t hold up to any level of sane scrutiny.
Elizabeth, Awesome article. Thanks for sharing. I’m very interested to see how the research on the microbiome contributes to our understanding of health issues. Most explanations are over simplistic. And while I think GG’s theory has some merit, I’m guessing that it’s not the final word on Vitamin A.
Seems timely…
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2018-12-gut-microbiome-intestinal-immune.amp
Okay, now that I’ve read Grant’s first book, and am starting on the seccond, I have to admit I’m pretty dang excited about how many people could reverse their diseases if he’s right about this. :D
Another connection: Dr. John McDougal (The Starch Solution) has been helping people recover from autoimmune diseases for some time using an extremely low-fat vegan diet designed to emphasize cooked whole grains and legumes rather than vegetables.
Does consuming beta carotene without fat lower it’s absorption? Even if it doesn’t, I would think McDougal’s diet would be fairly low in vitamin a?are those dieters going to be consuming a ton of salad without dressing or carrot sticks without dip, especially when they have to spend so much time eating large quantities of brown rice and beans?
Personal experience (an idiotic thing I did in 2011): Apparently lackof appetite? is one of the symptoms of chronic vitamin a toxicity. When I was on an extreme detox diet which included 3 to 4 sweet potatoes per day (100,000 IU+ of vitamin a per day) with coconut oil (I ate this way for at least a month, can’t remember if it was even longer), my appetite went from poor to zero… Oh and I was put on lithium shortly after that.
@Elizabeth VERY interesting.
Hi Matt,
A funny story. I used to troll the crap out of Dr. John McDougall at his message boards forum and even did a post about how potatoes made his pecker from average to almost micropenis size. Ad how the McDougall diet increases estrogen by 50% resulting in his big tender swollen pointy nips.ROTFLOL.
Hi Matt,
A funny story. I used to troll the crap out of Dr. John McDougall at his message boards forum and even did a post about how the overconsumption of potatoes of his fetishist diet made his pecker from average to almost micropenis size. Ad how the McDougall diet increases estrogen by 50% resulting in his big tender swollen pointy nips.ROTFLOL.
Hi Matt,
A funny story. I used to troll the crap out of Dr. John McDougall at his message boards forum and even did a post about how the overconsumption of potatoes of his fetishist diet made his pecker from average to almost micropenis size. Ad how the McDougall diet increases estrogen by 50% resulting in his big tender swollen pointy nips.Some mebers bought it! ROTFLOL.
Haha, that’s a good one Razzie.
Matt, after reading Grants books, I’m not convinced. It seems like he makes some big assumptions which he tries to tell us are obvious facts even though he has no proof. I’m curious, what are some reasons you can point to why his theory doesn’t add up, his points don’t make sense, or you think he could be wrong?
I thought much of Grant’s book was unconvincing, especially the part about cod and Alzheimer’s rates plummeting in eastern Canada. That really had no substance.
But I do think he’s really onto something about excess vitamin A and retinoic acid being potent triggers of inflammation. I have found it to be absolutely remarkable how my asthma is affected by high sources of vitamin A such as cheese, tomatoes, peppers, and brightly-colored fruits (strawberries, watermelon, mango, orange juice, etc.). It’s an on-off switch as advertised. And I think Garrett is doing a good job of taking it further. His testimonials are building quickly as well, on a very wide spectrum of health problems.
I’m on Garrett’s Facebook group and he adds studies all the time corroborating these findings. It’s a fascinating body of nutritional detective work!
After reading Matt’s reference https://clicks.aweber.com/y/ct/?l=6Dy56&m=3XadutCTmbTYMdC&b=ZXGwG.lwdwbzs8d_tSpJXAy, I think the retinol stored in the liver is quite harmless, compared to free retinol and carotenes in blood and organ tissues. Main pathways to turn retinol into retinoic acid and carotene into retinol seem to be well controlled. But there are subsidiary pathways to convert carotene into retinol and retinol into RA, mostly outside the liver. It could explain why the carnivores that eat a lot of butter, eggs and other animal retinol seem to get rid of their autoimmune conditions well enough.
Matt are you on twitter at all?
Grant in his blog https://ggenereux.blog/ talks about how pasteurised milk causes scurvy, in contrast to raw milk that is. Dr William Campbell Douglass in his book “The Raw Truth”, which deals with raw milk, on page 35 says the following “Pottenger proved there is a yet undiscovered deficiency disease similar to Vitamin C deficiency (scurvy), that can be cured by giving an endocrine product that contains no Vitamin C. Raw milk has this unknown nutrient and pasteurised milk does not. Steffanson, a famous arctic explorer, demonstrated that a supposedly adequate intake of Vitamin C in the form of tomato juice did not prevent scurvy in an arctic sea captain whereas just a few days on raw meat cured him completely. As shown by Pottenger, raw milk, if it had been available, would have accomplished the same thing.
I forgot to add that Grant states that scurvy is created by Vitamin A. Maybe Mat has read Douglass’ book too. “In this study, the researchers believed that they had induced ‘scurvy? in their animals just by having them on high vitamin A diets.”
What about green veg like spinach? Did that turn the asthma switch on?
I’ve had some green veg like broccoli and had terrible asthma after, yes. But it was with meals where there might have been other triggers, such as mashed potatoes containing some milk or cream.
What about fiber? Is it possible that plant fiber is irritating to the gut and triggering a hormonal cascade that leads to asthma? Potatoes and broccoli are both very fibrous.
I’m sorry, I don’t recall if you ever tried a low fiber diet.
I have tried a low-fiber diet curiously after reading Fiber Menace. Can’t say I was all that impressed with it, although I only made it a couple weeks. I eat a ton of potatoes. That is one of my staples, along with oats. I also was able to shut my asthma off eating a dozen bananas per day along with other pale-fleshed fruits like apples.
Hypersensitivity can be related to restrictive eating. I am grateful to Matt for information on this. I found out though there are more details about the dangers of restricting your diet and problems that result at http://www.edinstitute. I’ve of a mind that a natural diet is best with judicious amounts of refined foods. I prefer to eat more organic, grass fed, etc as the base of the diet,,,then work on lifestyle. I think that most Americans are vitamin A deficient as they are avoiding pre-formed vitamin A and it is not added to lots of foods. I think we have to be careful of our own experience because we often come to the wrong conclusions.( self diagnosis is often wrong) There could be other reasons that Matt and others have for hypersensitivity to foods besides vitamin A.
Another way of looking at health problems such as asthma, if the diet is not too restrictive is to see the asthma being caused from edema arising from the blood sugar rising excessively. If one is going into the opposite extreme of eating as many simple sugars and starches as one can, a pre-diabetic condition can arise. The evidence shows that it is related to overeating these foods. So for Matt, it may have nothing to do with vitamin A at all. Restricting or avoiding vitamin A rich foods such as dairy products including butter will naturally reduce calories to a more reasonable amount. It wont’t get rid of the possible edema in the bronchial tubes which seems to be the real cause of asthma unless other foods such as white sugar and other high calorie foods are reduced also.
John, This is news to me. Will you provide links to the evidence? Thanks!
Jeanne, people who have followed the eating guidelines of the edinstitute for calories have developed great amounts of edema. In the reviews of the book written by the author of the site, Gwyneth Olwyn…one person talks about this….igh insulin levels can manifest as one begins to eat again, after a period of malnutrition or starving, and thus affect the ability of kidneys to regulate fluid.
“I worked with Ms Olwyn as my patient advocate for years (meaning I paid for consultations, not just a random passerby of the site), and never once did she present me with the research that edema is caused by insulin issues. I later found that there are papers showing edema formation in type 1 and 2 diabetes patients who need outside insulin to regulate their blood sugar and help push nutrients into cells. There are papers showing edema can be formed as a result of sleep apnea.
For some reason, Ms Olwyn failed to refer patients out when things were out of her area of expertise, which is a core tenet of patient advocacy.
When patients like me asked about edema research, she took it as a personal insult.
She claimed that any relapse causes more edema, or that edema can come from anxiety issues, which I now know is wrong.
More than 40 people with whom I stayed in contact and who also followed HDRM had similar experiences with development of edema or other issues where Ms Olwyn urged them to eat, rest and focus on anxiety management to heal.
Finally, 30 people developed diabetes type 2 following this method, and I saw Ms Olwyn silence people when they challenged her statement that “diabetes is not a disease” and that someone could live with high blood sugar in the 300 mg/dL range for years and be fine.
It was alarming to me that Ms Olwyn dismissed people who had negative experiences, and told them they were putting the lives of others at risk by questioning HDRM at all.
So here are the takeaways from this review-
1) contrary to what Ms Olwyn wrote on her blog the eating disorder institute and in this book, edema is a blood sugar related issue and is not cured by simply eating and resting and therapy but medical intervention.”
Here is an article that explains the basics of this….https://www.naturalhealthstore.us/how-sugar-effect-fluid-retention/ As a natural health teacher, counselor and researcher, I do think that there are many things that can cause edema including edema of the brochi leading to asthma….Since many people can’t convert vitamin A from vegetables and there is tiny amounts in fortified foods, I doubt that is the issue. I haven’t seen anything here that is convincing…one person’s experience could be related to many things they are doing or their overall poor health say from being overweight.
Edema certainly isn’t ONLY a blood sugar regulation syndrome, and all of the Minnesota starvation study subjects developed extreme edema, which eventually resolved itself. Edema probably isn’t avoidable while refeeding post-eating disorder. And I get where Gwyn comes from in saying that freaking out about it could be putting lives in jeopardy. I’m communicating with a woman who was down to 30kg and was worried about edema and worried she needed to tweak her diet and start removing all kinds of foods because of it. Clearly the edema is a more minor issue than being on the verge of starvation!
John, it sounds like you need a better education on blood sugar. Eating as many simple sugars and starches as one can, in my experience, is a GREAT way to lose weight, restore better glucose metabolism, and even alleviate asthma. It was the first thing I tried, and it worked. Only problem is, I couldn’t eat ANYTHING with it without symptoms coming back. It was unsustainable, as I was freaking starving my ass off, lol. I’m not reducing my calorie intake at all. I eat entire bags of store-bought cookies in a single sitting (over 1,000 calories), crush KFC, drink 2 quarts of highly sweetened beverages per day, and eat up to a pound of 73:27 ground beef per day. No problems at all. Lungs clear as a bell.
Problems arise when I eat ethnic foods full of spices, tomatoes, peppers, etc, or eggs (just the yolks), or milk/cheese, or seafood, etc. Fuck Mexican food, lol.
Have you checked your blood sugar recently? Or A1c? I am just curious.
No I haven’t.
Hi Matt….When you say that you crush KFC, are you talking Kentucky Fried Chicken?
If so, does that mean you no longer believe PUFA to be problematic, metabolically speaking?
Oh I eat all kinds of crap. I’m not saying it’s a good idea.
So you’re basically eating the SAD? Can’t say I blame you, as at this point there’s not even one piece of solid, nailed down bit of nutrition information that one could act on. KFC, cookies and Coke all day? Why the fuck not?
Wish it was working for me but all I do is gain weight now and don’t even get the “Heat” part half the time. Feel like shit most of the time. Still “researching” for that breakthrough that’s always around the corner lol. Anyway, glad you cleared up your asthma.
Skeptic, I agree. I’m beginning to wonder just how much impact diet has on health and body composition. I don’t know a single person who eats the so-called SAD. Everyone I know believes he/she is eating “healthy”–though everyone has his own interpretation of what that is. Some are fat and some are thin but all have some sort of health problems. I still find the Vitamin A theory interesting, but I haven’t been able to stick to a very low A diet. It’s too restrictive. I am consuming less A than I used to. At first I lost weight. Then it leveled off and then I lost some more. It’s leveled off again. Maybe I’ll eventually lose more, maybe not. At this point, I feel it’s mostly beyond my control. Your comment that there is “not even one piece of solid, nailed down bit of nutrition information that one could act on” really strikes me. My own research has only solidified the idea that it’s extremely difficult if not impossible to prove any dietary theory. The thing I like most about Matt is that he admits that some ideas are promising but nothing is certain. Most people giving dietary advice need to stop talking.
I’ve wasted so much time on this topic. I still read at least an hour’s worth a day (but I used to put in multiple hours a day like Matt), books, textbooks, science papers, podcasts, lectures, etc, plus keep up with all the major players on social media and……… I have nothing to show for it. I could’ve spent that whole time studying Harry Potter trivia and the end result would’ve been the same.
Skeptic, I’ve spent a lot of time researching obesity and all kinds of diets too. But I don’t really consider it to be a waste of time. I learned one very important lesson: no one has it figured out. Never say never I guess, but I can’t picture ever going on a diet again. The best thing I learned here at 180 is restricting calories, carbs, and fat is counterproductive.
The women who made the comments said, and this is just second hand, that many people who followed Gwyn’s guidelines developed some life threatening edema…I think it is helpful to remember that those in the Minn Starvation experiment, ate a restrictive calorie diet for a short time and were young. Another person points out in the review that the guidelines for 2500 calories for women over 25 and 3000 for men have not really been proven…
Sure, refeeding, from extreme deprivation, is just plain dangerous in general. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refeeding_syndrome
That’s a known syndrome that often happens to some degree during the first week, but I imagine many experience various ills along the same spectrum as they continue refeeding over the longer term.
Hey Matt…your personal experience is just one person. It is possible that years of overeating sugar could be the backdrop for your issues…but who am I to say, that is up to you. I’ve looked at all sides of the issue on blood sugar…and really don’t believe based on my research ( and counseling experience) that high amounts of refined sugar is harmless for your blood sugar levels…I think that Stephen Guyenet has it correct that for some, and that means many, sugar is a trigger to make one overeat, creating obesity. I think that being obese is a related to many diseases. When I look around, I just see sick looking people who have extra weight, despite studies, they are not pictures of health. Not to get too personal but I also thought you wrote that you gained a lot of weight. I would like to know about the people who lost weight 4 years down the road on a diet high in sugar. ( and a high everything diet).
I’m pretty sure nearly everyone would lose weight if they cut most of the foods out of their diet in lieu of eating high-sugar foods and starches. You won’t see many fat people at vegan conferences, especially low-fat vegan get togethers, compared to say, at a WAPF conference. The research is pretty clear that excess fat is more directly responsible for metabolic issues, but both fat and sugar and other components are required to form the most highly-palatable triggers of overeating. I know that when I switched to a more Peat-inspired diet with lots of sweetened milk, ice cream, etc. I needed more than 1,000 extra calories per day to satisfy my appetite, and was still often quite hungry even with all the extra food. Eating leaner foods, as most in the Peat community have discovered, tends to alleviate that problem.
As far as refined sugar, that’s probably not ideal in excess. Where would you get your nutrition from?
As far as people losing weight on a high-sugar diet, it’s all over YouTube for everyone to see with their own eyes.
Have you found butter as problematic as other dairy foods?
Found it odd that someone would say there is not one bit of solid evidence that we should eat better. Despite what people hype, weight gain alone should keep people away from the standard american diet. Excess weight does create health problems. Extremes may be dramatic but eating a diet that focuses on whole foods, not a lot of fat and sugar, natural animal products regularly in moderation has more track record that the SAD. Forget vitamin A, and rather than cut carbs or avoid all animal foods, why not eat a balanced diet to improve one’s health. Matt , you had some interesting insights in his books but I found that the high sugar diet didn’t work for most people in the long run. With all do respects, why not take the middle road…rather than the silver bullet approach to health. If you are eating crap, how can you tell if it is not eating crap versus vitamin A
Not really odd at all. Eating fruits and vegetables was the last piece of consensus standing, and now that’s gone to. All the “eat your five a day” stuff was made up, and people are questioning the digestibility of fiber, the effects of plant toxins, and now whether vitamins like Vitamin A are toxic or not!
Tell me any nutrition fact that you think is solid and I (or MDs and PhDs much smarter than me) can support it or destroy it. There is nothing approaching the solidity of say “Force equals Mass times Acceleration”, and there probably never will be with nutrition “science”.
I’d forget vitamin A and focus on something else, but I’d have to suffer through asthma. No thanks. This explains it beautifully, and I suspect that the etiology of asthma as described in this article can probably be applied to a wide spectrum of autoimmune and inflammatory disorders… https://www.researchgate.net/publication/11841467_Could_bronchial_asthma_be_an_endogenous_pulmonary_expression_of_retinoid_intoxication
I shouldn’t eat such a shitty diet, but the fact that almost every variety of eating clean makes me ill while I can eat KFC with relative impunity is worth taking note of.
Note, like Jeanne, it’s hard to stick to. Easier than eating a whole foods diet, but still takes more effort than I can consistently muster.
Yep, don’t know what it is about eating clean but it never ends well. Maybe it’s less digestible as you’ve suggested, or maybe it’s just the psychological toll of banning tasty foods and force-feeding boring “healthy” food. IDK.
Skeptic….I suggest you look more closely at Stephan Guyenet’s material especially in the Hungry Brain.
You must be reading different science than me. The science I’ve seen that being overweight is risk for many diseases. Eating a diet which makes you satisfied with less is key, not eating as much as you want of everything…this is a modern thing…I agree with Stephan, once you go down the road of high palatable foods, it makes you overeat…..this is the modern food environment…..I do not think it is a way to recover your health in my experience of counseling thousands of people. It might not be a message welcome here…
I’m probably going to come across as jaded here, but after everything I’ve been through, here’s what would impress me: A study on at least 1,000 obese adult humans (10,000 would be better, but I’d settle for 1,000) that would offer some sort of treatment (diet and/or exercise, a drug, a supplement, electric shock, or whatever). The vast majority of subjects would complete the study–at least 98 percent, indicating that the treatment is tolerable. After a period of time (could be a couple years), the majority of subjects (at least 85 percent) will have lost a significant amount of weight, enough so that they would no longer be considered obese–50 pounds at least per subject. The weight lost would be almost all fat, not muscle, bone, water, etc. Then after 10 years, at least 75 percent of the subjects would have maintained their fat loss. If researchers can produce those kind of results, I would be willing to pay a large sum of money to participate in the treatment. Everything else is just theory and should be presented as such.
@Jeanne: even bariatric surgery, our current “best” treatment, can’t meet your standards lol. Drugs that inhibit your desire to eat tend to be disastrous (one experiment was quickly shut down after several patients became suicidal and one killed himself.) The only way seems to be to bite the bullet, diet to your target weight, then *hope* your stupid brain accepts the new set point (It most likely won’t). The only “solution” seems to be to never get fat in the first place.
Yes, Jeanne. Exactly.
I’d go further to say that it would have to show no anti-metabolic side effects. I think there are lots of people out there that have “succeeded” at losing weight and keeping it off long-term like that, even though they are a tiny minority of those who have attempted to lose very large amounts of weight (50+ pounds). I’m not convinced, however, that many of those people aren’t living in a permanently impaired metabolic state to maintain it.
Oh I’m a huge fan of Guyenet and probably annoy people here by bringing him up all the time lol. I don’t believe in that “health at every size” stuff if that’s what you thought. Losing and maintaining a leaner weight would be great, but the body fights back (adaptive thermogenesis), and no one has a clue how to beat it. That’s the core problem that every single obesity researcher should be tackling IMO.
Perfectly stated Skeptic. That’s what I was trying to figure out in 2012 when I intentionally bulked up +40 pounds. I wanted to figure out how to lose weight without reducing metabolic rate or having anti-metabolic “side effects.” Note, I haven’t lost it and have gained more from various experiments trying to lose it. Some people have done it to be sure, but it still feels like we’re a long way away from a consistent, reliable solution–if one even exists at all.
“if one even exists at all” That’s the part that worries me :(
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ttq9za1zEOc
Hmmmm
I’m bummed that I never had the courage to eat high meats. Would have made for some great stories to share.
That Vegetable Police guy almost died from eating this crap (appendicitis). The attending suggested immediate appendectomy but he refused to let her do it lol. Somehow he’s still alive. Sv3rige almost died from eating raw bone marrow too. Darwin Awards incoming…
Yeah, Veggie Police certainly fell off the fucking deep end lately. Wow. It sucks as I think everyone pretty much agrees that he seems like the coolest guy on the planet (if he wasn’t a perfection-obsessed orthorexic).
It seems many suffer from the belief that extreme effort = extreme results.
With the human body, it’s more like extreme effort = extreme backlash
Well said. He definitely has orthorexia. I think his next experiment will probably be an insane fast. He’s expressed interest in the past of doing a Jesus fast (40 day water fast).
Ah yes, The Darwin Awards. If loving them is wrong, I don’t want to be right.
Love the comment: “With the human body, it’s more like extreme effort= extreme backlash.” That’s certainly been my experience.
And I agree with your comment that any treatment should not negatively impact metabolism. Further, any treatment should result in enhanced overall health by mitigating any diseases associated with obesity.
Matt, just want to thank you to opening my eyes to what dieting really does to the human body. Discovering 180 D has truly changed my life.
There is another way to interpret the Minnesota Starvation experiment that I just came across. This is the notion the participants metabolism’s dropped so much in response to loosing excess body fat. Many question the idea that this happens with regular dieting. I think it might be a good idea to question this idea that the metabolism always drops excessively when eating less. I think that Guyenet is on to something with the brain and taste. You can’t just decrease highly palatable food.( like is done in most weight studies) Food has to be naturally satisfying by having a more mild taste and being more whole with adequate protein otherwise cravings will occur if only reducing sugar, fat, flour and other rich foods.
Yes, we all know that the mechanism that slows down metabolic rate in response to undereating is from a drop in leptin as body fat stores reduce. That happens no matter what your body fat levels are. Body fat levels go down = leptin levels go down = metabolic rate goes down. End of story. The only way to cheat that system is to lose fat by increasing leptin sensitivity, so that your body is experiencing stable or even increasing leptin levels (that increase metabolic rate and decrease appetite) even when the amount of overall leptin in your system is declining. That’s the key that no one has been able to effectively unlock. There are a few clues (11 Beta HSD, for example), but it’s far from being pinned down and translated into a reliable weight loss method for the masses.
Here’s my datapoint. I had two children who used to react badly to liver. They would get scaly skin on their face and one would immediately get congested and snuffly. My youngest would always wake up in the night after eating liver, about 11pm ish, screaming his head off in a completely incoherent, irrational manner a bit like a night terror but he was definitely awake. He would punch me, scream at me and be generally vile until such point as I could persuade him to nurse, when he would become calm again and go to sleep happily. He had had a phase of this behaviour every night at a younger age, but at this point, it was triggered exclusively by eating liver for dinner, which we probably did every week or two.
I eventually discovered the “solution” to the problem, which was to give a supplement of vits A & D in the kind of ratio you’d get in cod liver oil (we didn’t tolerate CLO because of the amines). Low doses didn’t help, but higher doses made all those symptoms go away again. In hindsight, I suspect the problem might have been caused by the vit A in the liver in the context of a vit D and calcium deficiency, but I’m not sure. He was taking calcium supplements (but not eating any calcium in foods to speak of).
After a while I stopped supplementing with A & D as I was worried about overdoing it, and we had a longish break from eating liver too. When we reintroduced it, the same symptoms returned, though less severely. We shortly afterwards trialled dairy, and I discovered that if he’d eaten a lot of dairy that day, he could eat liver without any ill effects. If he ate liver without having had a fair amount of dairy, he reliably woke up screaming again. It was so predictable that I started using reactions to liver to judge whether we were getting adequate calcium or not. I now realise that our dietary calcium:phosphorus ratio was very low and then was skewed to be overly high by the supplements. I think we were also taking vit K which I suspect made the calcium problems worse – I’ve had breathlessness from vit K supplements which went away when I started consuming more calcium. We always did fine with plain muscle meat.
(Incidentally, this same child was ‘cured’ of terrible IBS and refusal to eat anything apart from gram flour biscuits a couple of years previously by giving him a vit A supplement. Our diet was very low in A – our only fat was white palm oil shortening – though he did take CLO. His food refusal and IBS symptoms were getting worse and worse, and I had a hunch that the CLO might have too high a ratio of D to A. Cutting it out made things worse, and adding more made no difference to symptoms. When I added extra vit A the IBS and his appetite improved within hours.)
All my family have done badly with palmitate. Our long stint eating palm oil shortening (because it was the only thing we tolerated) seemed to cause all kinds of problems. Even after we were eating animal fats, eating anything with palm oil in caused immediate symptoms of poor blood sugar regulation. Supplements like retinyl palmitate and some others which had palmitate in (vit C I think, though I’m not 100% sure) all had the same negative effects, though at the same time, pre-formed retinol supplements from fish only gave us benefits, so I’m pretty sure it was the palmitate.
I don’t have any evidence for this, but I do wonder whether eating high vit A might increase your need for vit E, which might be the cause for increased sunburn from vit A.
I’m surprised there’s not been more mention of oxalate here. It’s something that can have an effect on asthma (not surprising since oxalate disrupts the sulphur chemistry). There is some info and links to some relevant studies here, though the website has not been updated for a long time, and I wouldn’t necessarily trust the food lists entirely, as lots more testing has been done since then on oxalate levels in food (as well as some of the other chemicals listed eg salicylate).
http://lowoxalate.info/research.html
I don’t know what Grant was eating before, but it looks like a lot lower in oxalate than the typical diet. And people like Charlene Anderson are eating a diet which contains virtually no oxalate from food. Oxalate is a problem that can be hard to identify because it’s not a “sensitivity” like other food chemicals, and you don’t necessarily get symptoms after eating the problematic foods (though some people do). Oxalate toxicity can be without apparent symptoms for a long time, or can produce symptoms when you reduce the amount of oxalate you eat.
You’re right about this much, Matt: “There has been a huge increase in most inflammatory and immune conditions over the last 40 years. So what changed significantly 40 years ago and continued to get worse?”
It’s definitely the right question, and I found the answer (wrote about it on this blog a few times, too): The problem with the typical diet over the last few decades is that with all the meat, fish and poultry we eat, we cut the muscle off the bone and throw the bones in the trash instead of the soup. It’s not what we eat that’s killing us, but what we don’t eat. And the nutrient we are not eating enough of is the simplest amino acid glycine.
But how can that be, since the typical meat, fish and poultry diet is so high in protein, that it has more glycine (and all the other amino acids) in it than ever?
Answer: all amino acids are not the same. And all those muscle meats (and liver too, btw) are loaded with the essential amino acid methionine, and very poor in glycine. And when you have too much methionine (e.g., right after you digest and absorb that cheeseburger), your liver, rather than recycling the methionine, is actually getting rid of it as fast as it can. Trouble is, it takes two molecules of glycine to get rid of every excess molecule of methionine. The result? meat-eaters, although they eat more glycine than vegans, have less glycine in their blood than vegans do.
Want proof? Here’s a 2016 paper by a prestigious group at Oxford, publishing part of the high-profile EPIC study in the European Journal of Clinical Nutrition in 2015. They looked at the consumption of all amino acids and the blood levels of all the amino acids in 4 dietary groups of normal volunteers: meat-eaters (omnivores), fish-eaters, vegetarians and vegans. What did they find? The vegans had the highest mean blood plasma glycine levels of all at 452 micromolar, while the meat-eaters had the lowest, at 390 micromolar, even though the meat-eaters ate the most glycine of all, at 3.12 grams/day, compared to the vegans consumption of only 2.61 grams/day. Sadly, the authors could not even explain their own results. (Here’s the reference: Schmidt JA et al. Eur J Clin Nutr 2016;70:306-312)
Why does glycine matter? Because it’s the body’s most important regulator of inflammation. So all these horrible diseases (and not just heart disease, arthritis, diabetes and cancer) but even autism and migraines, all of which stem from chronic inflammation, can all be laid at the doorstep of glycine deficiency. Take a glycine supplement (like maybe my very own sweetamine), and the glycine deficiency–and all the inappropriate or excess inflammation–is gone.
Scientifically, it all fits the principle known as Occum’s Razor: The simplest hypothesis that explains all the data is the one you go with. And the mountain of data that supports this continues to grow.
im 17 and took 25,000 IU for 2 1/2 months. ive been on a zero vitamin a diet for about 4 months now and i am very active. How long would it take for me to be completely detoxed? any response would be appreciated i feel very miserble
That should be long enough to feel some major improvement. If you haven’t experienced any there may be something else going on. Any more details you can share?
Yes definitely. This is how my diet goes –
Breakfast: 1 tbsp Apple Cider Vinegar diluted in water (i read somewhere that it would help a lot with the situation), Egg Whites cooked in coconut oil , Rolled Oats boiled in water
Lunch: boiled Chicken Breast with Brown Rice
Dinner: 1 tbsp Apple Cider Vinegar diluted in water again , boiled Chicken Breast, boiled White Potatoes
I only season with salt, and I was very into weight training but have stopped pretty much all my physical activity so I can put my full focus on eliminating this vitamin A out of my system and improving myself as a person after this traumatic experience
Yes, I have seen major improvement since starting the 0 vitamin A diet, but i also find that having cheat snacks, like oreos, kit kat, or anything else fortified with iron makes my symptoms much worse. I take a B complex vitamin with vitamin C every so often. My main symptom and most disturbing is actually hair loss, and this often is triggered along with facial flushing, dry/bleeding knuckles, red swollen lips, and fatigue/anxiety/depression
(side note: i am a vascular person because of how active i am, but ever since vitamin A toxicity, all of my vascularity seems to have vanished because of poor blood circulation. I do have waves where I feel much better as vitamin A is being dumped out of my system, and this is when I see thickening of the hair, more vascularity, with better concentration, etc)
. It really hits me hard especially with the history of being a very social person which is why i’ve isolated myself from many friend groups temporarily until I am back to feeling like myself. I notice that there are days where all my symptoms are completely gone but 2 days later i’m drowning with toxicity symptoms… I hope this will be gone by June so i can get back on board with my business and get back with my social life especially during the summer. Also, do you think that taking Vitamin D or absorbing the sunlight would help with the situation at all? While taking Vitamin A i was actually pretty deprived of sunlight and didn’t eat a lot of foods which contain vitamin D which may be the reason why the symptoms hit me so hard (the ratio was very imbalanced)
Wouldn’t wish this problem on my worst enemy ever. to anyone who is going through this living nightmare as well, we will make it through
Thomas, this is only a guess, but the cheat snacks may be part of the problem, and/or the coconut oil. I tried to cheat a couple days after about 2mo of close to zero vit A and it came back to bite me. You might try zeolite for the detox symptoms, it seems to alleviate mine. Dr G talks about where to get it and dosing in his program. I think it’s like $40 now, and has a ton of info last I checked.
Eating rice, bison, and oatmeal everyday sucks pretty bad, but feeling like crap from the vit A toxicity is worse, IMO.
Matt, you used to be a chef, right? Any gourmet suggestions with the handful of ingredients we have available to us? :)
French onion soup, corned beef, beef patties, beef chilli without the chilli (ground ginger, ground coriander, and lots of onion and garlic for flavour).
Pickles, horseradish, light coloured mustard, and onion relish go nice with meat.
I’ve made pineapple jam to go with meat too.
Braised cabbage (German style is nice)
If you eat light green veg then can make salads. Mayonnaise can be made with egg white or can buy vegan ones.
Scrambed egg whites.
Chicken is low A too. Asian recipes quite often are fine or can be adapted easily.
Korean beef, sweet and sour chicken with pineapple, stir fry with onion and mushroom etc.
Meringues, oatmeal flour cookies (chocolate covered katie has vegan recipe)
Some eat wheat which gives quite a bit more options. Or gluten free toast with allowed toppings.
Thanks Sophie. I’ve definitely found myself doing more of the German style foods lately, spaetzle-ish potato and egg whites with dijon mustard.
Sorry to jack your thread, Thomas! Hopefully what I mentioned above was useful and we’ll hear more wisdom from Matt soon.
My culinary suggestion is that a perfectly-seasoned or well-marinated piece of beef or chicken cooked over real charcoal or wood doesn’t need much other than a pile of rather plain starch to form an amazing meal (well, plus a sugary drink and dessert of course, lol). When I started out on a low-A diet I was mostly focused on steak, and I really spent a lot of time trying to perfect my game. I made a lot of progress with daily practice. :)
Thanks, Matt!
The “VAD” protocol has certainly helped me improve on my grilling abilities over the last 2 months. :)
Vitamin a dumped by the liver can end up being reabsorbed in the intestinal track maybe that’s why you are not improving fast enough?
Zeolite is supposed to be the best thing for absorbing it and minimising detox symptoms. In the nutrition restored website there’s a link to Dr G’s Amazon list with the brand of zeolite he recommends.
He also has a recipe for a detox bath in his vitamin a program that helps with detox symptoms too.
Genereux says vitamin c is very important so trying to take it daily might help.
Getting sunlight will intensify the vit A detox but you sound like your detox symptoms are more than intense enough!!
I hope you are feeling better soon.
@Matt – “… a pile of rather plain starch to form an amazing meal” – WHAT!! – meat and starch at the same time? – man, didn’t you ever read Herbert M. Shelton? Were you droppin’ acid in chemistry class? No wonder your journey looks like Odysseus’. But somebody’s gotta make the next breakthru in human evolution, right?
Thank you all for advice, I saw a video where Ray Peat talked about how UV exposure can destroy Vitamin A by getting into the unsaturated fats of the skin.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e276k8-cAG8
I stopped the cheat snacks and ive been going hardcore on this diet for about a week now, i feel my greatest. I added ground beef into my diet but i was eating WAY TOO MUCH!!! 610 GRAMS A DAY FOR A WEEK! There goes my option of red meat for a while until i lower my cholesterol, i just seem to be getting too much of anything I go for hahaha.
Also, would getting more dietary fat increase the rate of this excretion process? I will literally do anything it takes to get rid of this, i literally don’t care what. There was a point where I ran 5 miles a day but realized it probably wasnt doing me any good so i stopped
Anyone on the VAD protocol having kidney pain? Maybe I’m doing too much salt. I salt every meal to taste with pink himalayan sea salt.
Been having mid/lower back pain on alternating sides for past few days.
No kidney pain for me, but ive recently found out that himalayan pink salt is full of lead, arsenic and other heavy metals, – if you google that you will find out.
So i make sure to source white salt which is purified but without additives – right now we are enjoying olssons salt flakes (australian)
Ian, FYI, I went to the ER with back pain Mon. Never thought it would be a kidney stone. Still working on passing stone…they didn’t tell me at the time, but when I got home after staying the night, the CT Scan report says multiple stones. They were only talking to me about the 3mm stone. Been on low A diet since Nov 18.
Damn. Hope they pass soon with no further complications. What were their suggestions?
Just read this over at the mayoclinic:
“Eating a diet that’s high in protein, sodium (salt) and sugar may increase your risk of some types of kidney stones. This is especially true with a high-sodium diet. Too much salt in your diet increases the amount of calcium your kidneys must filter and significantly increases your risk of kidney stones.”
Guess that explains it.
Ian, passed my 2 specks and a larger piece, say, the size of half a peppercorn this morning.
They said most stones are made of calcium. I might take it in to have it analyzed. They said these things can help.
1. Drink plenty of fluids (12 8 oz glasses…most should be water). I guess Matt will have to fuss at me for encouraging people to drink more water! I guess we really do lose minerals that way. I am also thinking this recommendation was for me since I had not passed the stone at the hospital.
2. Phytate lowers the risk of recurrence of all types of stones…wheat rice rye barley & beans have phytate.
3. eat higher potassium foods (fruits and veggies)
4. Eat more Low sugar citrate fruits and juices
5. get enough calcium. Said new research shows that eating calcium rich and oxalate rich foods together lowers your risks because it binds minerals in the stomach and intestines before they can reach the kidneys.
6. Limit salt to 1 teaspoon daily…who can do that without causing whack-a-mole?
7. Spinach, rhubarb, peanuts, cashews and almonds, grapefruit and grapefruit juice are all high oxalate foods and should be reduced, or eaten with calcium rich foods.
8. reducing animal meat may lower the risk of uric acid stones.
9. Reduce sugar and fructose (soft drinks)
10. Don’t take more than 1000mg of Vitamin C as a supplement.
Hope this helps
thanks for the info!
Thanks on sharing such information.
Thank you So much
I believe I’m currently suffering from chronic Vitamin A toxicity and that it primarily resulted from overconsumption of carotenoids (mainly carrots and winter squash), followed by long-term supplementation with cod liver oil, and then regular consumption of desiccated and fresh liver. Whole-food multivitamins may have contributed early in the process as well.
My current interpretation of this whole Vitamin A toxicity theory is that:
(1) Preformed Vitamin A from animal foods is necessary to form Vitamin A toxicity, but that overconsumption of carotenoids probably contributes to maxing out the liver’s storage capacity for Vitamin A prior to retinol from animals leading to actual toxicity.
(2) Eating too much liver (or cod liver oil) can cause Vitamin A toxicity on its own. The amounts founds in eggs, dairy, and fish are much smaller and would be ancillary contributors on a carnivore diet, but may be sufficient to lead to toxicity when consumed alongside a plant-heavy diet rich in carotenoids.
(3) Widespread Vitamin A toxicity is probably quite real due to pharmaceutical and beauty care products, fortification, multivitamin supplementation, and overconsumption of plant foods in the absence of enough meat (meat contains taurine which is used to conjugate retinol and carry excess out of the body in feces).
HOWEVER, when it comes to the growing number of autoimmune cases, I think the overconsumption of plant foods is the bigger problem and the primary pathway is by causing intestinal permeability via harmful plant compounds such as lectins and oxalates, as well as dysbiosis by overconsumption of starches. The Paleomedicina Clinic in Hungary has a lot of research supporting this viewpoint, and there are people on a carnivore diet who regularly eat liver and have simultaneously resolved autoimmune conditions like eczema (most notably Dr. Paul Saladino). If Vitamin A was the primary cause of eczema, these people eating liver on a regular basis should not have resolved their problems. Thus, plants look to be the primary culprit, while Vitamin A may be a secondary source.
The simple solution is the beef and water carnivore diet for a stretch of time. The more taurine you take in through meat, the faster your body can excrete conjugated retinol in the stool. However, I would be careful with the amount of animal fat included at the start of the diet. I suddenly began getting greasy diarrhea when removing all Vitamin A from the diet, and I believe it may be related to (1) stearic acid in animal fats shuttling Vitamin A to the liver for storage/excretion, and (2) loss of bile reabsorption in the colon due to intestinal inflammation. To be clear, I think stearic acid from saturated fat is benefiting your body by helping to clear out the Vitamin A stored outside the liver, but it may be that too much at one time leads to excessive inflammation and terrible symptoms (nausea, diarrhea).
Bottom line: When illness strikes, animal foods are your friend and plant foods are your enemy. If you are healthy, you may be successful in gambling with plant food consumption, but it’s often hard to know you are on a path to self-destruction until it is too late. We ignore the few warning signs that exist, passing them off as “normal aging” or some such bullshit. The real problem is that we evolved to subsist on animal foods and supplement with a small amount of plant foods (primarily fruit, secondarily tubers) when animal food was scarce; now we try to subsist on plant foods while animal foods have almost become supplementary…yet another epic FAIL for the human species.
Old but seriouisly? Vitamin A consumption has gone way down. It’s simply a marker of organ meat consumption as that is the big dietary source. Outside of some circles that has decreased a lot.
Plant foods do not contain vitamin A, only carotinoids, which can be converted to vitamin A in the body, but NEVER to a level of toxicity. Vitamin A toxicity is only possible through animal product and supplement consumption. No amount of kale can do it.
From Garett Smith :GERMAN STUDY SHOWS OVERCONSUMPTION OF “VITAMIN” A COMES MOSTLY FROM *FOODS*, NOT SO MUCH FROM *SUPPLEMENTS*
My exasperation with people claiming that “Vitamin” A toxicity is mainly caused ONLY by supplements, and NEVER can happen from food, is never-ending. BOTH can cause this problem, and it happens EVEN FASTER from retinoid drugs like Accutane/Roaccutane, Retin-A, and Differin! Combine two or three of them and watch poisoning happen even FASTER. If you developed health problems during or after a high VA intake (eating the rainbow, eating lots of dairy/eggs/liver, supplementing, or using retinoid drugs, you’re already toxic).
First, there is NO research showing ANY difference between the dangers/risks of “Vitamin” A forms from natural OR synthetic sources. They are exactly the same chemical compounds chemically and functionally. The burden is on the people making the claim that they are “different” to show it is true, because I have shown research multiple times showing them to be exactly the SAME.
Next, we have this paper https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/108/5/997/5201552 showing that ~33% of Americans are theoretically “Vitamin” A toxic by the GOLD STANDARD LIVER BIOPSY.”
Now, let’s get to this meaty German study I just found [brackets and asterisks are my additions for emphasis]:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26098479/
“Food supplements, if not properly used, may lead to potentially harmful nutrient intake. The purpose of this survey was to examine vitamin intake from food supplements. Taking into account the intake from food, as obtained from the National Nutrition Survey, it was determined whether the ***tolerable upper intake levels (ULs)*** were exceeded via supplements alone, or in combination with food.
[…]
Few subjects (n=7) reached or exceeded the ULs through supplements alone. The UL for vitamin A and folate was reached by a few men in the middle-high group, and by a few men and women in the high intake group.
[…]
The use of food ***supplements was not associated*** with excessive vitamin intake in this survey, except in a small number of cases. ***Vitamin A intake above the UL was the result of high dietary intake which also included the intake of β-carotene, rather than the result of overconsumption of food supplements.***”
DIETARY INTAKE, NOT SUPPLEMENTS, were how most people were creating these toxic intakes. Note that the UL is the “upper tolerable limit”, and taking those kind of doses for any significant amount of time is EXPECTED to cause TOXICITY. Now look back at the toxicity numbers being found in the US…are you putting it together yet?
Note that it is mentioned in the research that “Vitamin” A intakes above the RDA are mentioned as potentially causing toxicity in some people. That’s only 3000-4000 IU per day, folks! Many people get that at BREAKFAST alone! A low end of “Vitamin” A in supplements is commonly around 3000 IU…those people are automatically there, without even counting food.
It is also stated in the literature that simply getting the RDA daily will maintain at least A YEAR’S WORTH of this poison in your liver…so what happens when people are getting 5, 10, 20 times that PER DAY via their diets and/or supplements and/or pharmaceuticals? GUARANTEED TOXICITY, that’s what.
If you have health problems, it is nearly guaranteed that SOME, if not ALL, of your problems are related to “Vitamin” A toxicity. If you want to get started on digging out of this hole, see the info below.
In answer to those who believe vitamin A must be good for us because it is in everything and we evolved with it; Nature doesn’t want us to live forever:
“Retinoic acid may be the limiting factor to our lifespan, a time-bomb set to go off when we reach our expiration date. Our vitamin-A starts accumulating from the day we are born (and even in-utero). When we exceed our ability to use it or store it, it is time for us to move over to make room for the next generation.
In everything that I have read about longevity, I’ve seen a lot about telomeres, glycation, mutations, oxidation, toxins, stem cells, and inflammation, but I have never seen anyone include vitamin-A as part of the equation. (I don’t know about the others, but inflammation and glycation may be optional if we avoid vitamin-A and carbohydrates).
Consider the Pacific salmon. They have a trait called semelparity. They only spawn once and then their bodies release hormones that kill them. You might conclude that those hormones are bad for the salmon, but they inherited a system, perfected over millions of years, that insures the survival of a sustainable population or the extinction of one that no longer fits in. Dying is as important as being born.”
Read more here: http://www.carbwarscookbooks.com/eureka/
I thought this video was interesting Judy. Note how the old cow has yellow fat, and yellow fat is synonymous with tasting super strong and gamey (our senses don’t like it, but sometimes wanting to be a culinary bro overpowers that instinct, lol). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqXjsBwOjOI
Also an interesting note that human adipose tissue was named WHITE FAT originally. And now human adipose tissue is known to be YELLOW AF. Like glow-in-the-dark yellow!
Interesting video!
Well as you know plants contain exactly zero vitamin A… but beta carotenes, who can never be converted to create an excess of vitamin A in the body.
You know that a story is bs when it relies on the testimony of a few people… but on the other hand, the Okinawans at a diet extremely rich in beta carotene coming from purple sweet potatoes that used to be the source of most of their calories when they had the highest longeivity of any population in the entire world : )
But I mean who cares, we got a couple of people who disagree. They must be right.
Realize also that the “cod liver oil scandal” was because of “fermented” aka RANCID cod liver oil… so it MUST have been the vitamin A, right???
On the other hand, studies have shown that vitamin A supplementation diminishes or destroys the benefits of vitamin D3 supplementation… so we might actually want to get our vitamin a from plant foods.
By the way, the “low fat craze” never became reality because Americans never came anywhere close to a low-fat diet as eaten by healthy populations such as Okinawans (back in the day, not now, they’ve lost their longevity in turn,) historical Hawaiians etc.
Okinawans are not long-lived. Their lifespans are much shorter on average than regular Japanese citizens when adjusted for height differences.
It’s probably really hard to get acute vitamin A toxicity from carotenes, although Dr. G loves the story of the guy who died in 10 days flat on a carrot juice fast. But we’re not talking about acute Vitamin A toxicity, numb nuts.
Sure, blame the fermentation. There isn’t any evidence that cod liver oil is terrible for you, lol. Maybe check out all the catastrophic things that have happened to humans and animal subjects who have taken it before blaming fermentation. And how does fermentation cause the conditions people reported? By what mechanism? I can explain EXACTLY how vitamin A causes, for example, head to toe eczema. Can you explain how fermentation does that?
Also, shut the fuck up about Okinawans. You sound like a retard. 4’10” Americans live longer than Okinawans.
Matt,
It appears that you have found a tremendous value in Low Vit A diet, as has Grant G. Is there any reason not to adopt an all-meat diet, then? If Grant feels so good eating only beef and rice, and apparently you too, then why keep the rice (and any other ‘stuff’, really) coming?
I am truly curious, as I have for the longest time been a huge fun of yours and Joey L., and I know full well how oppossed you are to restriction. But having experienced some new issues, health-wise, I wonder if in actuality it would not be better for us folks suffering from bizzare, auto-immune ailments, to ditch the suppossedly pro-inflammatory carbs and go with meat?
Hopefully you will be willing to offer your take on this.
Thanks
Hey Pablos,
I have tried an all-beef diet, and it was pretty miserable. I couldn’t breathe through my nose at night, developed horrible tartar behind my teeth that cut my gums, had violent gallbladder attacks and diarrhea, never got any deep sleep, lost sexual potency, was unable to exercise, was quick to anger, anxiety, and shaking/trembling under stress, I couldn’t concentrate at all without getting dizzy, etc. So it’s hard for me to advocate it on that basis. I feel like it’s extreme adrenal stress to avoid carbohydrates completely.
Carbs are not “pro-inflammatory.” It’s the opposite, especially if you are exercising. I was extremely injury prone back when I was low-carbing. Those who think an all-meat diet is anti-inflammatory are probably enjoying the flood of cortisol to their system, which is not a good way to stifle inflammation long-term.
Grant also doesn’t eat only beef and rice but has beans as well, and I believe some olive oil and raisins in small amounts.
Definitely try to eat as many foods as you can when restricting Vitamin A before you jump on a one food diet.
Thanks for getting back to me, Matt.
I am so dumbfounded by all of this, as many of us here are really.
But to be completely fair, you do not hear of a lot of, if any, negative experiences regarding
the carnivore diet. I have been observing a few channels on youtube, as well as read some articles
and threads on different platforms, and, frankly, all I have seen thus far is praise for the all-meat diet. It is true, however, that most of it is coming from people who were overweight/obese and had a bunch of health issues. I have yet to see a comment from someone who was underweight, or at least very skinny (such as myself) to begin with.
Perhaps it is the vitamin A indeed. Or, maybe, it is something entirely different, but whatever the reason, people seem to experience a tremendous amount of improvement in their health status. So far, you do not see the same amount of positive feedback from people following VA elimination diet.
How long did you last on the all-beef diet? And why, do you think, you experienced those negative issues? Could that only be due to eliminating carbs?!
I am also pondering your comment regarding adrenal stress in the absence of carbs. How come we do not see it with Shan Baker’s, Anderson’s, Ken Berry’s, Saladino’s and all the other proponents of this meat craze? Surely, we could assume they are riding on hormones and that is why they feel so good, but wouldn’t that well dry up at some point?
This is all very intriguing. Frustrating and sad, too. And perhaps a little scary. At least for me.
While VA elimination diet can be quite doable [actually, I have been almost doing it, minus the eggs], mentally I mean, going all meat is pretty scary to me. Especially after giving a ketovore style of eating a try for close to a month and feeling absolutely awful, and then having even harder time getting back to my baseline. In fact every minor dietary intervention on my part results in major disturbances in my overall health, especially gut-wise, but this often translates into issues in other areas as well.
One thing I would also like to share with you regarding all-beef diet:
my wife’s diagnosis with breast cancer, which was (and still is) a huge source of stress in my life, as the battle is ongoing.
My wife, who was diagnosed with a breast cancer at the end of 2018, adopted a full carnivore diet for probably three months (beginning in Dec 2021). Initially it was supposed to be ketogenic diet a’la Miriam Kalamian, but pretty soon we were convinced to ditch everything else but meet: wow, did it speed up the process of tumor growth and, more importantly, metastasis: during this three month period you could see the tumors growing in front of your eyes! I guess meat is indeed pro cancerous, which is quite the opposite of what the carnivore crowd would have you believe. In fact, whenever I research anything about cancer, and I have been on this for the last three years, is that going off of meats (and sugar, wheat, and all that other stuff too) is the way to go. Perhaps the only exception for this that I have seen is brain tumors, where keto based on meat only is offering quite a benefit.
The carnivore diet craze came around 14 years ago in a first wave. It didn’t do well. No one stuck with it except for a handful of people, and all of them pretty much gravitated to just grainfed beef and water (no vitamin A). Pretty much all long-term carnivores complained that shellfish, liver, eggs, and other foods caused the problems they were seeking to resolve to come back.
Some people have seemingly indestructible adrenals. I can’t even drink coffee and have overtraining symptoms on even moderate levels of exercise. I don’t know how Shawn Baker and others do it. Good for them. If I’ve learned anything being in this game for 15 years, it’s that if you hear someone having great results, I’m certain to NOT have the same results trying to do the same thing! haha
Sorry about your wife man, that sucks. Thanks for the cancer myth-busting though. Go report that on some carnivore thread and watch it get deleted quick!
There are lots of people saying zero-carb harmed them on the Ray Peat grouos on facebook and here as well. Matt isn’t the only one. People don’t rock the boat as much on the zero-carb groups because they’re a cult and they moderate and bam the people who are at all critical. Charles Washington banned me when I had not even commented. He looked me up on other forums. He’s a control freak and a censor. All diets have a honey moon phase where people feel good. That wears off and many keep going and ignore problems or just feeling lackluster. Matt calls it “the catecholamine homeymoon.” You can see it in extreme low-carb, carnivore, vegan, fruitarian. Paleo and other extreme diets. It doesn’t prove the diet is good for you at all. And it usually wears off, but some people are dedicated and ignore all the problems. Charles Washington had admitted he feels cold all the time and his bones ache sitting on a hard chair. He also had a toxic and paranoid personality and all that he cared about was being skinny. He said it was fine to eat nothing but Walmart ground beef and water. He is an ignorant and self-aggrandizing person who made a religion out of Owsley Stanley (aka the bear) who had multiple heart attacks and cancer. Charles Washington also worships the Eskimo, but they had lots of health problems which have been exposed now and they aged faced according to Stefamssom. He said they looked as old at 80 as the Americans of his time (1920s/1930s) did at 80. Keep in mind Americans were a lot healthier back then. They didn’t eat lots of vegetable oils and flour and sugar. Poor people might have eaten margarine more and I do not think lard is healthy or pork in general, based on all of the studies against PUFA and pork. Pork intake has a higher correlation with liver cirrhosis than alcohol does across cultures, for example. Many other studies show pork is problematic. See the Perfect Health Diet Blog by Paul Jaminet for the problems with pork. And many other websites and studies against pork and lard.
To my knowledge, only the people on Grant Genereux’s site are doing a low-A version of carnivore, so no other reports or studies would apply. His followers seemed to do quite well. I’ve never done a zero carb diet, so don’t speak from personal experience.
The Innuit men ate a lot of seal liver, but they knew not to give it to pregnant females. They also practiced infanticide, which was perhaps a way to deal with the birth defects that might result from excess vit. A.
I don’t have the time or energy to go into the issues with pork at the moment, but lard was the main fat used in the US before it was replaced with Crisco in the 1940s. Pork was a staple food for the Chinese, whose civilization has outlasted almost all the others. Modern factory farmed pork could be problematic, however. https://www.carbwarscookbooks.com/eureka-part-3/
The issues with pork are extensive and go back to Biblical times. Just because some group ate it doesn’t mean they were healthy because of it. They may have been healthy in spite of kr. What percentage of their diet was pork fat and protei? What other meats and proteins did they eat and what percentages? Did they live in better environment with less air and water pollution or pesticides and electro-magnetic radiation and artificial lights? Yes.
The Weston A Price Foundation did a small study and they found even pastured pork made them tired and they saw negative changes in their blood by dark field analysis. Preparing it in special waus like long marinating with Apple cider vinegar or lemon juice reduced the bad effects, I believe.
Many people feel better avoiding pork on many different diets from Aajonus Vonderplanitz primal diet to zero-carb to low-carb and paleo. Just because Dr. Atkins and Eades and Jan Kwasniewski (and others) mindlessly push pork belly, bacon, sausage, ham, lads and pork rinds doesn’t mean it’s goid for wrigjt or longevity or health. We don’t live in the same pristine world traditional people did. We have electricity and all kinds of radiation and artificial lights, pesticides, pollution, stress, over-work and sleep deprivation. There is no sense arguing we can eat like some other group with a different environment or different genes. Sally Fallon and other don’t look healfhy and they have a high rate of aggressive brain cancer (glioblastoma), strokes and several other problems that I would want to explain before following any of their dogma. Maybe brain cancer comes from all the high vitamin A liver and eggs and pork that those people consume and rancid PUFA from cod liver oil.
Almost all long-term carnivore dieters avoid vitamin A Judy, gravitating to just grain-fed beef with the whitest (low vitamin A) fat they can find, and water.
I’d like to comment on Matt’s post on the cheese-eating Dutch. Yes, we love cheese. And so do the French, the Brits, the Danish, the Germans, and all other European people who are not as tall as the Dutch. It is quite preposterous to explain the length of the young Dutch males in terms of cheese, which, by the way, don’t ferment in grottoes on natural bacteria. That’s Roquefort, we don’t have grottoes. The length of our youngsters keeps increasing, which is probably due to an excellent health system available to every citizen from the time in the womb to the grave.
By the way, our cheese making is a high tech industry. We don’t use raw milk like the French and all countries who produce the real yummy cheeses. Our cheese is made from pasteurized milk which is inoculated with specific strains of lactococcus bacteria and matures in climate chambers. Most Dutch cheese exported to your country is young cheese, not very long fermented in the climate chambers. No idea if they contain MK7 at all