I don’t like throwing out personal stories I receive from others’too often. A lot of health gurus out there make a bad habit of selectively sorting out all the favorable testimonials they receive and busily go about propagandizing their work – and believing it themselves.I may have once been into’telling everyone how awesome I was, mostly because I knew I had really stumbled upon something amazing and no one was paying attention and it was driving me crazy. But I don’t have that kind of time anymore, I’m too busy learning.? This, however,?is a classic?case of honeymoon chasing, and restricted eating gone awry – and?it’s?well-written enough to be VERY enjoyable to read.
We’ll keep it totally anonymous, but I will say I’m glad I took?her by surprise and made?her realize. She wanted me to post it tomorrow, but I told her?”I can tell you right away I can’t wait another day.”? Sorry, I’m on like a total 80’s binge right now. I met a girl who?crimps her hair and owns the movie Space Camp, so?I’m really trying to’step it up. By the way, the title of this post stems from the fact that I’m starting to believe that this whole speeding up the metabolism and healthy eating/living thing is a heck of a lot easier than I ever imagined. Which is amazing news.
For?more?discussion on many of the topics covered below,?download how to RAISE YOUR METABOLISM.
“I was alternately vegan and vegetarian for years, had an interim period of (still mainly-vegetarian) SAD omnivory, and then discovered paleo after a crippling six month bout of IBS/chronic diarrhea. Prior to paleo I also had: a multi-nodular thyroid adenoma appear that would occasionally blow up to the size of a ping-pong ball, severe amenorrhea (maybe two menstrual periods a year), severe depression, reactive hypoglycemia, arthritis, anemia, non-stop respiratory and sinus infections, seasonal allergies, lethargy, memory problems and brain fog and probably some other stuff I am forgetting.
Most of this stuff cleared up after going paleo, luckily. However, after the honeymoon period of like “Holy shit! I can run around and do stuff now and feel good! AAAHHHH! This is the best diet in the world!” (about 9 months), I found many of the health problems creeping back into my life. The biggies were: my hair became so brittle that I eventually had to chop it off because it was breaking off every time I touched it, my daily diarrhea came back, my thyroid cyst started to increase in size again, I became fatigued as hell, my now regular period became plagued with cramps, my blood pressure was super low, and the original mental clarity I got started to fade. Total fast track to bummer town–I wasn’t sure where to go from there.
Then I found your site. I had been aware of it, of course, but hadn’t really checked it out until recently due to the whole “Matt Stone is a douche” thing that seems to have a life of its own in the paleosphere subconsciously steering me clear. Then, two weeks ago, Chris Masterjohn linked your “Protein–A Closer Look” article and it was one of those really formative light switch moments. I empathized with your diet history because it paralleled mine in many ways?initial good experiences with mostly fruit going downhill, initial good experiences on LC going downhill, etc. I read the whole thing closely, went on to read other entries, watched some of Josh Rubin’s videos, downloaded your free e-book, and looked up everything I could find about Ray Peat.
Holy #$%*ing shit! Between all of them it was like the smack I needed to try something new and it all made so much sense intuitively. I found a summary of Peat’s dietary guidelines that someone made on the internet (noting that he emphasizes a lot of the things that I love to eat and crave often and that paleo dictum advises to limit, like dairy products and fruit, and deemphasizes a lot of the things that paleo folks fetishize but that I have to force myself to choke down, like tons of red meat.) I combined these guidelines with your HED ones and modified my current diet thusly:
–less muscle meat
–more bone broths and supplemental gelatin
–more coconut oil, less bacon grease for cooking
–addition of some daily fruit
–less oily fish and more white fish and molluscs
–more dairy products
–addition of white rice
–upping veggies and starches (was never VLC or anything, but eliminated the guilt of taking more veggies than meat on my plate)
–having a little homemade sweetened tapioca pudding every couple days
Small changes in the grand scheme of things, but evidently a big friggin’ deal to my body. Within a single WEEK my temperature went from the high 95s/low 96s (where it has consistently been for most of my adult life) to staying somewhere between 98.5 and 99.3. In fact, the heating system broke at my work three days ago and I didn’t even notice–normally I would have been bundled up and shivering. The white coating on my tongue that has been there for the past six months is gone (so the whole discussion of reversing thinking on candida diets in that interview you did with the Rubins made me high five the air!).
I have tons of energy, am sleeping much better, my breath and body odor is noticeably better smelling, my brain is working again, my thyroid cyst is noticeably smaller, my bowel movements are solid once more, my libido is coming back and no menstrual cramps this month. How much of this is the diet, how much the return of spring and sun, and how much is joy about throwing old attitudes out the window I do not know, but whatever the percentage, thanks, dude–I feel better than I have in many many months. Keep on researching and blogging and adapting–you are totally helping people.”
"the whole "Matt Stone is a douche" thing that seems to have a life of its own in the paleosphere subconsciously steering me clear"
Actually that was what first attracted me to check out your blog.
Thanks Hans. Sounds like you were suffering from douche-o-philia. Get your body temperature up and that should clear right up while simultaneously doubling penis size among other benefits.
Watch out for side effects like uncontrollable urge to lift small cars and severe carbohydrate addiction.
–less muscle meat
–more bone broths and supplemental gelatin
–more coconut oil, less bacon grease for cooking
–addition of some daily fruit
–less oily fish and more white fish and molluscs
–more dairy products
–addition of white rice
–upping veggies and starches (was never VLC or anything, but eliminated the guilt of taking more veggies than meat on my plate)
–having a little homemade sweetened tapioca pudding every couple days
excluding the tapioca(i dunno what that is) i am on the same route and use a lot of red palm oil externally and internally…. um…. as odd as it seems after being a chick obsessed with protein and meat, i have to eat a shitton more to keep weight on. i have a love affair with the fresh seafood offered here(even though i am skeptical after the oil spill, mississippi).
didnt think i would handle fruit well, but its fine
thought i would have a hyperglycemic attack with potatoes, i was fine
thought i would wither away without my 2lbs of meat a day, but i am fine(and i have a pinched nerve in my back right now so i have been on bed rest pretty much)
i gave up dairy for lent but am looking forward to adding it back b/c it will save me some mass food eating.
matt, a while back you mentioned you were going to do a post about a meal plan saving money and budgeting, i think it was in am email….is that on the way. im currently around 4000+ cals a day and my money is ridicuously tight. ive been going the oxtail/organ route and big cheap roasts and end of the day seafood for protein and usually doing mass cooking of taters with gelatin/spices/ghee. fruit is usually with coconut butter or on its own…
something i found odd…when i have a screwed up meal that isnt going down well, it spike my BS like mad and if i throw back a handful of berries(with a full stomach and high BS) it levels out and lowers my BS…whats that mean?
ok, long comment i am sorry!
I'm glad you leave your douche comments though. I only found 180 in the first place because of an interesting comment you left at Whole Health Source. :)
This is a great story. It's just one data point, but I hope you can gather enough of them to suggest it's possible.
douches rule! Good post Mattie! I wish more health douches would turn on a dime when they realize what they push is fucking people up .
I am 100% paleo (I might try pastured dairy if I can find it) and also do all of this, except for the rice, sweet potatoes are bette. Lower methionine and tryptophan and more gelatin, keeping it lower on the PUFA side of things, eatin' brains, not low carb but not high carb. This is all perfectly paleo. Too much tryptophan might be considered faileo, although it generally isn't and that's the point, right?
It is just a shame that some think 40% of calories as protein from steak and eggs is healthy. You will be glad to know that I pitched the question to Robb Wolf and Matt Lalonde on the upcoming podcast episode of The Healthy Skeptic. They have been dodging the question forever, but no longer.
Although, matt, if you leave a douchey comment on a blog i "never" see it deleted (i'm probably wrong haha). but when someone comes here and does the same, you delete it. like that one dude who kept saying that raw dairy, salmon, fruit, and egg was the best diet evar!
WHYS MATHEW STONETHAN, WHYS??
Matt does not delete anything. That should be obvious ;)
i've always found that wolf/lalonde/kesser/harris ate and promoted a high fat paleo diet first and foremost.
also jaminet's book 'the perfect health diet' pretty much lays it down clearly. the very athletic do eat high protein, but probably not at the expense of the fat. do you get what i'm saying?
it's always been about fat being the majority of calories, with enough starch/glucose and protein to reach your personal goals.
and by-the-by, when i added in kerrygold butter to my paleo diet for one month in january, i gained a ton of bad fat weight that i still haven't been able to shake. it certainly didn't raise my metabolism. neither has eating more fruit. perhaps it works for some.
There's nothing wrong with a "paleo" diet, but it has unnecessary restrictions. Going from lots of red meat to more bone broth and fruit isn't a knock on "paleo" though, just a knock on people who eat "steak" and salad. "Atkins" dieters are the same way–being unsuccessful with diet coke, mayonnaise, and grilled chicken salads isn't a knock on low carb: it just so happens that many people on Atkins eat like that. Kurt Harris' recent series of posts about no such thing as macronutrients is great. "Low fat" and "low carb" mean so little on their own ("insulin resistance" too). This is why WAPF is a great resource, even if you don't agree with everything they say or like all their authors. It [mostly] promotes foods.
** I'll repost this response, as it seems alot more relevant here:
I'm having similar experiences to others on here. Overfeeding on mostly starch the last few months has definitely helped, but taking the plunge and going head first down the sugar route recently has got me some really impressive results that I just can't ignore.
I suffer a bit from anxiety, and I've found that eating sugar at times when you're majorly stressed out has a amazing calming effect. (hyperactivity my ass)
oh, and I agree with the point that sugar is just energy – I tend to eat sugar mainly at the start of the day and then eat a more conventional starch one towards the end. I find this gives me a good balance while still getting some key nutrients in.
A couple of questions though;
-Why was it that when I was on a fruit based diet in the past I felt freezing (which is mainly sugar based no?)
-Any suggestions on what to eat/how to mix it up a bit. Been eating just plain sugar/molasses or even at times just processed junky chocolate (gasp).
-I'm quite eager to try this whole gelatin stuff that everyone seems to be banging on about – can I just buy from the supermarket, or is there some finer points I should be checking for.
Cheers for any help.
*Oh, and I just gotta finish by saying a big thanks to you Matt and this 'ere site of yours. Without it I would no doubt be getting thoroughly sodomised by 'Grok' down in the Paleo dungeon
right about now. (That was the last health regime I was on – that did get me some results at first but then just left me confused and sicker a few months later when my body quite rightly rebelled against the carb restricting lunacy!)
Great story. I love that you're saying it might not be such a hard thing–I've been setting intentions that the whole redressing balance shouldn't have to involve big pendulum swings before reaching equilibrium. I like also that she acknowledges that other circumstances–including the fact that she's _feeling good about it_–can play a role. It's all so synergistic..
Great post, though I still hold the idea that Ayurveda and TCM can shed some light on why some things work for some and not for others, why things that work for a while can quit working, and how geography and season can have an impact, also.
Keep it up, Matt. Love that you are an unapologetic douche when necessary. Eat the Food, Speak the Truth.
BTW, the personal story is where the power is, insofar as clinical results are where the rubber meets the road. Still curious about my previous question – is or was Ray Peat ever a clinician?
Continuing from the previous post comments. My stats are:
Born in India, in US for 13 years
Blood sugar after meal: 120-130
when hypoglycemic: 80-94
5'6" at 135lbs currently
very physically active
Still pretty skinny, to American standards. I put on 20-25 lbs and my arms/legs/body muscles never been bigger. Eating a lot of food gave me a small protruding gut and got some manboob action going (I could give some of those low-carb chicks a run for their money).
Yes, I would get hungry right after eating potatoes -by itself, with chapati, or with butter, or drinking milk -raw. Both of those things created that lightheaded, fast emptied stomach, hypoglycemic type response. I couldn't get sleep at night at all, since I kept waking up every 1-2 hours to eat. Also I mostly ate potato meals for breakfast or as a snack in the evening time, never for a whole meal.
Adding fruit and sugars back changed all those things. Afterwards, eating a potato created the same stomach emptying response (also felt a little lightheaded), but without the hypoglycemia. Now I'm sleeping the whole night, and can go without food after waking.
I'm really curious about finding "the why" behind this.
Yeah, Mattatack- you are a bit douche-y sometimes, but you're smart and sincere, especially over email, and the strength of your arguments pulls in folks who are similarly bright and thoughtful. I do what I can to point out the inconsistencies and blind spots as I see them, but I know you have a good head on your shoulders and your heart in the right place. That's a good combo for winning followers and keeping them.
Fascinated by the idea that sugar might be helpful for overcoming metabolic dis-regulation. I agree with John that conflating specific iterations of paleo or low carb with all possibles iterations of it is foolish. Seems like there's a pendulum swing among some paleos acknowledging that not all grains are evil (corn and white rice being the most palatable at the moment in the paleo world), that shit tons of meat is not strictly necessary, that carbs are not evil, etc. That's why I continue to keep my toes in that world- I don't think this is necessarily incompatible with what I've learned here, and I hesitate to jettison the other insights that paleo offers- the benefits of engagement with the natural world, perspectives on child rearing, education, etc. It's a framework that still holds utility for me, and so I keep on searching and learning, and neither throw my support behind the 'paleo is stupid' crowd and 'paleo is the only way' crowd.
Word up though- second all the props for your tireless investigating.
Thanks for the info, Narenda.
The reason I asked for it is because many lean people, especially those already predisposed to being insulin sensitive, can become TOO sensitive to insulin. The leaner a person gets the more this tends to occur.
Many lean people or dieting people (women in particular) suffer from hypoglycemia because they're too responsive to insulin. It is usually managed by a reduction of carbs in the diet.
Hopefully this makes sense, and I'm glad to hear you're feeling better.
I'm curious though, what were you eating the potatoes with?
Pretty much steamed potatoes in a pressure cooker, with butter and salt. Cooked like 8-10 at a time, most of the time they were refrigerated so not really tasty.
Also, my insulin, cholesterol, and triglycerides were all really high when I got a blood test.
I think what helped getting rid of hypoglycemia is adding carbs back especially sugars. Last three days I feel like I'm exploding with energy, almost hyper but all the time.
Ahh, that's what I thought — you were eating the potatoes alone without a real protein source. I bet you'd be fine with them if you ate 'em in a regular square meal.
I'm paying attention, Matt, and it is pretty cool :). I myself promoted you in a thread on rawpaleoforum.com, and also linked to the "I Thought Matt Stone Was a Douche, I Was Wrong" blog post. I hope I helped to awaken some poor misguided paleos.
But is this really going to solve the problem of obesity? Have you had any stories of people overcoming diabetes? How about my parents in their 50s who are becoming uncontrollably fat? They already eat plenty of calories– can it just be the omega 6 and muscle meat? I myself think some kind of hormonal treatment (thyroid, progesterone…) is necessary, and also it's just a feeling of mine that fat is a general reaction to toxicity from something (metals? fluoride accumulation? POPs?).
Are you going to be looking more into hCG soon? In looking over what you’ve said about hCG, I saw that you were going to have a guest article by someone who’s worked in an hCG clinic (Ariel)? You said it was probably the diet that worked, not the hCG, but I think if one were burning that much fat, they simply wouldn't be hungry anyways. The hCG treatment would probably be healthier and still work if one did not limit eating at all. Since you’re so much into Ray Peat lately, he says hCG, a plancental hormone, "greatly increases progesterone synthesis, but decreases estrogen." Sounds good, right?
Also, I’ve noticed that a lot of people think ?e-hCG? that they take orally is hCG. This is actually ?homeopathic hCG?, which of course any sane person will realize is next to nothing. hCG is a peptide hormone, which I believe means it needs to be injected. Probably, like insulin, only tiny amounts of it are needed to be effective. So perhaps, if there are problems with hCG patients, the problem is too much, too fast.
"I suffer a bit from anxiety, and I've found that eating sugar at times when you're majorly stressed out has a amazing calming effect. (hyperactivity my ass)"
Yes, same here. I actually think if there are bad effects from eating (and drinking) too much sugar, it is because people might be under more stress than is natural, for one reason or another, and it makes them need sugar more. And also a lack of quality foods, as sugar is satiating.
Most of the sugar is absorbed as or turned into glucose, and Ray Peat says how glucose helps with pretty much anything. Also, I notice that fat from fructose is fat that does not need bile to digest, and during times of stress, the liver or digestion might not work so well.
Also, Limey, on gelatin– The best gelatin you can get on Earth is here:
I tried Knox gelatin once and it smelled like excrement.
Bernard Jensen cows eat grain as well as grass – which are full of polyunsaturated fats
Does anybody who's worked with Ray Peat know what kind of pregnenolone supplements he recommends?
I finally got my labs back, and I'm normal cortisol (really? would have never guessed – I suppose that's why labs are good) and I have no DHEA. I was reading that supplementing DHEA can be dangerous though, and it's better to start with the precursor pregnenolone. It seems a cream format is best, but I'm not sure where to find it.
"although, matt, if you leave a douchey comment on a blog i "never" see it deleted"
That probably because you cannot see deleted comments, because, well, they are deleted.
Dun, dun, duuun.
"but when someone comes here and does the same, you delete it. like that one dude who kept saying that raw dairy, salmon, fruit, and egg was the best diet evar!"
I pretty much doubt that. Until recently I have never seen Matt delete anything. I think the new spam filter is to blame.
@everyone: if you plan to post a hyperlink, I would leave out the "http://www." or the spam filter most likely will eat it.
That guy's (apex predator) posts are still there. Nothing got deleted.
I'm getting frequent tooth pains from eating more fruit recently. Should I stop?
She not told us the quantity of foods eaten.
I also eat some white rice but I'm in the low carb side (100-130g carbs).
Fruit in the mornings and if I add sucrose with meals is making my BG levels much higher then with just starch alone. I hit 130 to 145 with fruit/juice alone or by adding sucrose to mixed meals, testing at 1hr and 2hr.
Anyone else seeing results like this? It's back to fasting levels within 3hrs; 80-90. With massive amounts of starch I only rise to 110 at most(1hr and 2hr).
How does one get gelatin in their diet without eating Jello or Marshmellows?
Mark you make bone broth or stock and eat it or you buy powdered gelatin.
I too have had a bit of tooth pain comes and goes.
Hans is right-Matt does NOT delete. Some delete their own comments but not Matt.
Loreli I think that must be a prescription drug. You can email Ray Peat and ask. He answers quickly
Thanks, grass fed momma. Permit me to ask a really dumb question: how does one buy bones and make a bone broth? Do you buy a bag of bones from the grocery store?
Also, where can powdered gelatin be obtained? The grocery store?
Any help would be appreciated. Thanks everybody!
Cheers for the link Jared :)
Tooth pain and dental issues seems to be more of an issue with a sugar centric diet (just ask any raw vegan!) The trick I've found is to eat more mineral rich foods in relation to the sugar (particularly dark greens) and rinsing your mouth out with bicarbonate of soda after eating also helps a lot. (neutralises the acid)
Matt – Nice testimonial. I've been having some thoughts about what you've been putting out there lately, and I'm wondering if you've heard of the movie (with the very lame title) "The Inner Weigh". I haven't seen it yet, but its being screened in my area this month. Apparently it's a "Secret" type movie about how the way you think affects the way you look. I thought you might be interested in it because it reminds me of some things in the Jon Gabriel book, and how you've been talking a bit existentially about food/weight/life lately. So, just wanted to let you know about it if you haven't heard of it already.
One more thought on this post:
What does this mean for weight loss? If one gets their basal temperature up, does that mean that they will lose weight?
I spent years as a runner, eating PUFA, and doing all sorts of things to kill my thyroid. I've been healing my thyroid for six months to a year after reading Peat and Stone. I feel much better, but I certainly am not slimming down! I'm gaining weight. Muscle yes, but fat too.
I guess that's the price I pay for a healthy metabolism? Accept the extra fat with the extra muscle? I guess counting calories *does* matter to a certain extent, no?
i've taken hcg via intramuscular injection for 3 weeks. it was to see if it would help raise my testosterone and relieve other negative symptoms. here is the double edged sword: it works, but i had to ejaculate once or twice a day, and that "need" kind of controlled me, so i stopped. perhaps taking it even less frequently or at even lower doses would be nice – i was taking .75ml 3x a week.
UGH I don't care about the health implications anymore I just want to lose weight!!! I am tired of feeling compelled to eat healthy but NOT diet– so I'm avoiding foods but still fat! I feel like cutting calories is my only option because clearly I can't lose weight eating whatever the hell I want :( HELP!
Mark I posted many bone broth how tos on my blog grassfedmomma.blogspot.com. I give sources too or you can find a local grass fed cow or bisonfarmer or try us wellness meats for marrow bones.
Gelatin is online too.
Could the biggest problem for paleo/lc simply be the issue with consuming too much protein for a prolonged period of time?
It seems that there isn't as much emphasis on eating non/low- protein foods (energy sources) in the paleoverse. This includes eating pure fats, as most of the mainstream paleo stuff seems to stress that all kinds of meat is ok, which I believe could be a large mistake.
Too much protein can begin to be a problem at around 2g/kg body weight and is necessarily toxic at higher levels while carbs/fat are not.
A "low protein paleo" diet might work significantly better for others. Low protein being 10-15% protein which matches the daily protein consumption of many(most?) other indigenous peoples. This means lots of fats (bone marrow, back fat and suet) as well as lots of carbs.
i have been reading about the Warrior Diet and one thing in particular stood out. he talks about the correlation between metabolism and the amount of calories consumed per meal, not per day. the diet is basically eat little during the day and loads at night, whatever you want. of course intermittent fasting has potentially big pitfalls but i think it could work well if you really eat enough, carbs and fat.
"Let me give you an example of how adaptation works. People can walk for two hours every day without noticing any improvement in muscle, strength or speed, but if they sprint for only five minutes a day, they will most likely notice improvement in both strength and speed . So, it's not necessarily the length of time spent exercising, it's the intensity of the exercise. Coming back to the subject of diet, the question remains: Is it the intensity of the meal that will dictate your body's metabolism? My answer is yes. That's the way I experience it."
i am going to try this. treat a meal like a sprint. day 1 and i'm fuckin stuffed haha, feeling good though, i'm roasting
Your cortisol results may be "in range" and you could still be adrenal fatigued. Take for instance your morning cortisol result, it should be at the high end of the range and if not, you are still AF.
8am cortisol- 5.0 (3.5-9.5)
This is still a very low cortisol result even though it is "in range"
And cortisol should gradually lower in range through out the day till finally at the end of the night you are at the low end of the range.
Also, DHEA is a potent antagonist of cortisol and will lower cortisol. So, if you are worried about low cortisol I would definitely stick with Pregnenolone. You can buy Pregnenolone cream, which is easily absorbed, at iherb dot com. It is very reasonably priced.
actually i started yesterday and was totally satisfied today up to my meal (really just eating from 5pm to 9pm, dunno why he calls it a meal) eating a few oranges and some cheese, felt energetic and relaxed. the meal had loads of everything including sugar which i think could be particularly important. nothing says calories like ice cream
The Warrior Diet has been discussed at length in the bodybuilding community, and the conclusion is that it can work for losing body fat but it's not exactly optimal as it's just really bad mojo for most people.
I have tried the diet, and it was indeed bad mojo for me. I can't remember all the specifics, but I do remember the premise. There are much healthier ways to eat.
i don't mean his actual diet. i mean the basic idea of it, eating some fruit and whatever else during the day, assuming you aren't doing much, and then for a few hours stuffing yourself with everything. for me this would be eating the same stuff as i do now except all in a short space of time. i can very comfortably do this, i like to eat fruit in the morning and i always sleep best when i've eaten loads at night. if you have to be active early in the day then i can see it not working but otherwise i think it can. anyway, i'm gonna give it a try. stuffing my self has only done me good in the past
just to add, i can easily see how it would fail if you followed his diet. most people would just not eat enough. he says to eat protein and fat first, then carbs after if you want them. today i did ice cream, meat and potatoes, hot chocolate, a pizza, and more ice cream. 4k+ calories in 3 hours. overeating
Has anyone experimenting with lots of natural sugars noticed more tendency to congestion? This is currently my biggest problem with the morning fruit loads, my cold passed more than two weeks ago but am still producing A LOT of nasal mucus and am heavily congested. Not had this kind of lingering congestion for years so I'm assuming the sugar binging has something to do with it.
Other than that, weighing myself I found I have actually gained 6 pounds in the past two weeks, though pants are as loose as before I think I've gained some abdominal fat, and facebloat is back after disappearing for a short period. Am again getting impatient with this experiment so will probably stop in a couple of days unless Matt finally reveals some of the increasingly positive results he's had with fruit binging in the past 3 weeks.
About big meals and metabolism, I agree, in my experience, going from four big meals per day with unrestricted carbs/fat/protein, to two similarly unrestricted big meals per day, worked just as well for suppressing cravings and maintaining energy levels, the big difference being that I began losing fat very rapidly when going from four to two meals. Psychologically, I think regularly eating big mixed meals to complete satiety is more important than absolute calorie levels for avoiding that accumulation of sense of deprivation that cause shamefilled binge-eating behaviours. And think most would agree that this kind of psychological stress is a big part of what activates the starvation metabolism.
it seems to clear up after a few weeks, at least in my experience. honestly, just keep going with it. a month, i would say. if after a month you are still having problems with no sign of improvement (this is key), THEN abandon ship.
Collden, I've had the same symptoms along with tooth pain.
Fwiw, I've been putting molasses in my raw milk but have been eating a lot of fruit by itself when I wake up.
That sounds similar to the plan I posted in an earlier post.
Generally 3 meals of fruit and cheese/casein during the day, then my biggest meal at the end of the day. I also usually have roughly 12-14 hours between dinner and breakfast.
I don't use it as an excuse to eat a bunch of junk food like pizza and hot chocolate though. A lot of people fail on a plan like this because they can't control their cravings at night from underfeeding during the day.
Also, 4k cals in one sitting is overboard even for a large person. Many people already have problems with bile production from overfeeding meals much smaller than that. Hopefully you don't experience that.
I'd be interested to hear how you make out after a while eating this way.
Okay, I couldn't help but notice the message of this post was how different diets may seem to produce great results at first but then they become troublesome, yet this person thinks they've found the answer with Matt's diet –which she's been on about a week or so. Isn't it ironic, don't you think? (sorry Matt, I know Alanis is 90s.) I'm just saying…S.
Matt, did you read this http://blog.cholesterol-and-health.com/2010/11/sweet-truth-about-liver-and-egg-yolks.html?
Some people seem to get scared by the fact that you are now "promoting" sugar, but there's hardly any evidence for incriminating sucrose in my opinion, specially from natural sources. Sadly people center on avoiding sugar like the plague when other factors can be so much more important. Maybe food with sugar would even be helpful (not totally sure).
At least not sure about big quantities, that is.
Anonymous, I noticed that short-term jubilation irony too. Perhaps it's different when you're in a place where 'nothing' has worked for a while and then 'something' starts to work.
I'm beginning to recognize that if a new habit/diet/practice is going to stick, it needs to offer good results _quickly_, in order to seem worth committing to.
I also wanted to thank Michael and Narendra for your dialogue on insulin hyper-sensitivity.
Last year I was having awful low blood sugar problems (mostly from undereating, duh), was reinforcing them by assuming I was insulin resistant, and my ND said not to take chromium because I was the opposite of insulin resistant. (I mentioned the chromium piece on here once before and inadvertently upset another commenter).
I didn't understand what he was saying at the time and was puzzled by it: you've now explained it to me very clearly (and btw, it seems that since adding in lots of starch and making myself quit undereating, the blood sugar issues are gone!
I went away for work for a week. The hotel had a free breakfast buffet, so I would stuff myself at breakfast. I ate eggs, fruit, pancakes, sausage, etc. to the point where I was so stuffed, I wouldn't eat until dinner. Dinner was a large burger w/ mashed potatoes (plus a beer or two!) When I got back, my wife said…"holy crap, you look pregnant!" Two large meals. Just sayin'. :-)
Anonymous Lorelei aka Hawaiigirl said…
"Does anybody who's worked with Ray Peat know what kind of pregnenolone supplements he recommends?"
I've asked him this, and he surprisingly said that he hasn't used any himself. I suppose he makes his own? But you'd think that, in recommending these hormones as if they are miracle cures, that providing a secure source for people would be a priority. I suppose we can trust his own patented formula of progesterone from (his?) company Kenogen. For pregnenolone, he recommended I buy from lef.org, but only because it didn't seem to have "the worst excipients" (by-products).
But there's the question, is taking them as a powder in a capsule really the best for absoption? On one hand, he has said that the steroid hormones are definitely not destroyed by stomach acid, as the myth says. But regarding progesterone, he says, "In the powder form, direct and intimate contact with a mucous membrane allows lipid phase to lipid phase transfer of progesterone molecules. Instead of by-passing the liver, much of the progesterone is picked up in the portal circulation, where a major part of it is glucuronidated, and made water soluble for prompt excretion." That's why he has his dissolved in vitamin E, which he claims makes it so it by-passes the liver. But how different can progesterone be from the other steroid hormones? Why not this precaution with pregnenolone and DHEA?
Also he says "steroid acetates are generally a little cheaper than the simple natural steroid. Some people assume that an acetate or butyrate can be substituted for the steroid itself. This can cause dangerous reactions." I actually called many retail suppliers about their pregnenolone or DHEA, and none of them knew if it was one of these forms. They said the manufacturer would know, but none of them could tell me who their manufacturer was. Then I contacted many bulk manufacturers. Several of them said they made real pregnenolone base, but would not tell me retail companies they supply for. So that's the situation there. Don't know how much of a problem it is.
Lisa said "You can buy Pregnenolone cream, which is easily absorbed, at iherb dot com." I'd try that.
feeling chubby said…
"UGH I don't care about the health implications anymore I just want to lose weight!!!"
This is a common problem– perhaps Matt will look into hormones such as hGC next… Who knows why it has happened but for many it just needs to be fixed.
"DHEA is a potent antagonist of cortisol and will lower cortisol."
I've never heard this… I don't think it's on Peat's site. He does say progesterone is an antagonist to cortisol. Also worth mentioning is that Peat has said in his books that pregnenolone will normalize cortisol levels (but not antagonize).
In his book Generative Energy, Peat discusses his Pregnenolone experiments. His results were dramatic. In a radio interview, he mentions eating a whole kilogram spread out over one year, but stopped taking it because of the expense, saying that he now alters his diet so as to increase his own pregnenolone production.
You can buy pure pregnenolone powder in various quantities here:
This website's owner seems knowledgeable, and should be able to tell you whether or not it's Pregnenolone acetate. Let me know if you do ask him.
I've also used the Quantum Pregnenolone product, which has another ingredient that I think gave me digestive problems.
I don't remember where I heard it, but I think the powder alone can be absorbed OK if you just eat it.
You can also buy it by the kg from various chemical suppliers, mostly ones in China. You might have to barter.
firstly it is just an experiment. i was still getting leaner and feeling great with the fat cycling but i couldn't resist giving this a try with some tweaks.
i was trying to eat as much as i could. pizza is bread with cheese and hot chocolate is milk. they are not terrible foods. i didn't crave them. during the "underfeeding" part i wasn't at all hungry, my appetite wasn't suppressed, i was fine with fruit which is more or less what i was already doing.
it was 4kcals (i'm 155lbs) spread over 3 hours rather than one sitting. eat some, move around, eat some more. didn't have the slightest digestive disturbance. was full but not sleepy or anything like that. slept great, now next morning i feel great too.
i am just exploring the idea that eating loads in a few hours could have a greater metabolic benefit than eating a lot over the whole day. my appetite is naturally highest at around this time (4-9pm), and before this whenever i got a huge hunger and stuffed myself with everything i could find i would feel amazing after, that high testosterone i can do anything feeling. those meals usually have plenty of sugar so i will be eating plenty of that in addition to everything else. pretty low protein though, don't have much of a appetite for it these days
even if i didn't want to eat like this regularly i think there is benefit to be had in the occasional massive mixed meal.
How does Ray Peat alter his diet so as to increase his own pregnenolone production?
Dr. Uzzi Reiss, bio-identical hormone expert, in his most recent book, The Natural Superwoman, states that "DHEA lowers cortisol". Also, the NTH-Adrenals group follows the protocol of healing or at least stabilizing the adrenals before using DHEA because it lowers cortisol.
So those are my sources, I realize they are not typical information sources for this group. I was just putting it out there.
@ Feeling chubby. You're not alone! I can't lose weight doing 180 either, but I blame it on my stressful work lifestyle. I've gained a clothing size (depressing), but I feel much better, HOT hands and feet, very little sickness, mentally happy, etc. Did RRARF for one month, about a year ago, and eating to appetite all fresh, home-made foods ever since. I have a hellish commute to a soul-sucking job, but i have a plan to be outta there within the next year. I can feel my body hanging onto the excess 35 lbs in defense to my constant irritation during the work week. Trying not to think about the chub and taking every day for what it is. We gotta be happy, otherwise, what's the point?
How do you respond to that charge that this flirtation with sugar is no different than the apparent initial success with low carb or paleo, or all fruit, or all meat? How do we know this isn't a short term fix doomed to failure long term as well?
Is it just that you were using the wrong rubric before? That the raise in body temperature, unlike stable blood sugar or effortless fat loss or less inflammation or whatever, is actually an indicator? Is there any reason to believe it would be not be prone to the same cycle of intial improvement, then long term declines? Curious your thoughts, amigo.
On several points…
I too found my way here as a result of the douche comments. So not to worry… they are only helping!
And I too have nothing but praise for Matt's douche-ery… keep it up Matt (you douchebag!) cuz yes you are totally helping people!
Also I too can attest to the body odor thing, or lack thereof now, since not eating as much muscle meat. I eat very little muscle meat now and noticed that I instantly stopped having ANY armpit odor. So I no longer use deodorant (no need to!). And I can go for days without washing under my arms and still have absolutely no armpit odor… so long as I eat very little muscle meat. But as soon as I eat more muscle meat, the odor returns! I take that to mean that my body is telling me that eating less muscle meat is a good thing… and I always listen to my body.
And one more ("me too")… I too wonder about what Rob just asked, and am very interested in Matt's and anyone else's thoughts on it.
As someone who is trying to "assist" my body in shedding excess bodyfat (without triggering rebound affect) by using the higher starch and lower fat version of RRARF most days, with a couple higher fat days (like Terpol's fat cycling)…
I often cook my starches (potatoes, rice, etc.) in bone broth, which is usually high in bone marrow. But I wonder with the high fat content of bone marrow… is this too much fat? I often eat the marrow out of the center of ONE of the 1-inch pieces of bone, per meal. I'm wondering now if maybe that is too much fat??
I'm curious, for those who have had good bodyfat loss results with the low-fat/high-starch approach, do you cook your potatoes (and other starches) in bone broth or even eat bone broth from bones high in bone morrow?
Also very interested in hearing from those who have NOT had good bodyfat loss results from that approach AND from those who have had good bodyfat loss results with other approaches.
I am wondering if weight loss needs to be addressed separately from the health issue. The native/primitive peoples that were healthy and lean, never had to go from fat to lean…they were always just lean. Perhaps Matt will have to come up with a plan that swings that pendulum back and forth between RRARF and (insert weight loss protocol here) where it eventually settles at a lower setpoint while retaining all the health gains that are made from overeating. Two week intervals of each as in the ABCDE diet maybe?
What makes you think body odor is a bad thing?
It may be bad if you're hunting upwind, but it could be a warning to other predators downwind?
i read an example of a recovered anorexic, who took 4 years of normal eating to return to a normal weight. an extreme example, but still it got me thinking about my own 20 years of dieting and that it could take this long to shed the fat.
i just baked loads of potatoes at once and ate them with some salt and cheese/grated coconut. broth would be good if you made it earlier and skimmed off the fat. calcium supposedly increases fat burning after a meal so it should help. you could eat lowfat dairy but bodybuilders generally say to avoid dairy when trying to get lean. i don't know if it matters but they certainly know how to get lean so maybe using broth instead would be best.
i don't know if you are eating fruit but i find very low fat a lot easier with fruit earlier in the day. i like oranges
Not sure if you meant that as a joke, and I don't mean that as an insult, but I personally find body odor to be bad thing… and your logic certainly doesn't convince me otherwise.
But even going by your logic… how would body odor "warn" (as in keep away) a "predator"? Wouldn't body odor "attract" it? And if it's a "predator" wouldn't we NOT want to "attract" it??
Seems to me, using your logic, that body odor would be more of a liability… get us eaten by "predators" – AND – "warn" our prey to run like hell or get eaten!
And neither upwind nor downwind will matter.
Besides how could we possibly know WHERE our prey OR predators are at any given moment… no matter which way the wind is blowing… which btw can change at any moment.
Thanks. Yes I do eat fruit. Earlier in the day I eat mostly fruit and maybe a little (non muscle meat) protein, if I feel I need to. But I eat the bulk of my food late in the day… cuz my appetite doesn't really kick in until then. That way of eating seems to really agree with me. I feel great and have no digestive or health issues, other than excess bodyfat. Not gaining, but not losing bodyfat yet either.
So thinking maybe I'm still consuming too much fat from the broth and bone marrow. I will use skimmed broth on my low-fat days instead, and see if that makes a difference.
Sucrose is a significant component of most fruits and vegetables. Many fruits like apricots and pineapples have a majority of their sugars coming from sucrose. Sweet potatoes and carrots also have a majority of their sugars coming from sucrose.
I hope it's not a contest between sucrose bashing and fructose bashing, since they're both wrong. And it would be hilarious if all the fructose bashers found out that sweet potatoes have a lot of it, through free fructose and sucrose (fructose+glucose).
And I don't think a diet based on refined fats and oils is healthier than a diet based on refined sugars. You're still not getting many vitamins and minerals through your main source of calories, it is not healthier to base most of your diet off butter and coconut oil than it is to base most of your diet off maple syrup and honey.
@The Real Will
I wonder about the weight loss separate from health issue as well. I don't think it's well understood how to sustainably lower the body-weight set point. Until there's more clarity, it's probably not worth experimenting, unless you want to be someone to see what works.
I agree there would probably be one of two protocols. Either something you follow separate from RRARF for a specific period, or simply continuing to RRARF and see if weight slowly comes off.
I used to be naturally lean and now have a small amount of belly fat from doing low carb. It kind of annoys me that I started listening to any health advice at all because so much of the way I used to intuitively eat (except for PUFAs) has been validated here.
She-Ra, Queen of the Bears:
I’m a student of TCM and its cool to see other followers of this blog with a TCM perspective.
Personally I’m really interested in comparing Matts and others? tips and experiences to the TCM nutritional theories. I’m kinda stuggling with the latest idea of adding more sugar, since (too much) sweet contributes to dampness, especially in people with hypothyroidism, sluggishness/low energy, edemas etc. which could be seen as caused by dampness in a TCM perspective. Do you have any thoughts/experiences with this?
Yes, we're all offended by body odor, because we have been washing it away for at least 100 years and masking it with soaps and colognes. That doesn't mean that body odor is unnatural.
Anyone who's worked in a smelly environment knows that with time the smell is no longer noticed as it permeates our olfactory glands.
As for predators, we are predators. Many predators have learned to avoid humans, and smelling them would get them advanced notice that a more powerful predator is approaching.
Listen, I don't know if body odor is natural or not. All sorts of plants and animals give off unique odors that inform the environment. Just because your contemporary sense of hygiene is offended by human body odor doesn't make it unnatural.
I think the best way of eliminating body odor is to eat raw, vegan food, but how natural is that?
We can agree to disagree. Actually we just have different views. I wasn't even debating about whether body odor is natural or not. And I wasn't referring to body odor as being offensive or view it in the context you presented, in terms of our surroundings, environment, predators, prey and so on.
I personally believe that the odor is one way my body exhibits symptoms that something is not quite right. And I find it interesting that the odor disappears when I eat less muscle meat. And I also find it interesting that it returns when I eat more (that being the only change). I'm not saying that I think muscle meat is bad. I'm just finding that my body seems to like less than I used to eat (I love a nice big juicy steak!). I view the body odor as possibly being the toxic affect of consuming more muscle meat than is enough.
To me, a bad smell emitted by the body is a bad sign, not good, and seems to signify that something is wrong – disease, infection, toxicity, etc.
Oh and the reason eating raw vegan food eliminates body odor is probably because not many raw vegans are likely eating much, if any, raw muscle meats – rather than it being the raw vegan diet itself.
Raw vegan=zero odor Unless I ate garlic or onions then BAM stink pits
i dont have stanky pits. i eat garlic and onions. i also eat some muscle meat but not much.
Raw vegan: I had zero-ish odor when eating very high fruit (no onions or garlic, but durian whenever I could get my hands on it). At the moment, I'm eating high raw and mostly vegan, and I'm just as stinky as I always have been since puberty. Stink-free seemed to correlate more with emaciation (and I think that my hair smelled worse then).
It's in the family–I know the 'genetic' argument is precisely one of the things we're out to overcome here, but I think it plays a part. I have musk glands, no question. We don't have a shower at home (no plumbing) and my husband can eat all kinds of junk and sweat all day, and I'll still smell stronger!
@ela could it be hormones? Sorry ladies but I can smell that period smell smile away on some women. ;-)
@debbie–yeah, I can smell it too: I chalk it up to my really good sense of smell… But I don't know that that's the source of my stinkiness (although when I was fruitarian and didn't smell so much, I had no cycle or any other hormonal functions). Right now, I'm taking progesterone and am (usually) 'regular.' But a year ago, before I started taking it, I didn't really have a cycle and was still about the same stinky. So interesting…
(And I don't really smell that bad–starting to feel self-conscious saying I'm stinky over and over!)